Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome back to under the radar a show

00:00:02 ◼   ► about independent iOS development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started

00:00:09 ◼   ► so today I think we wanted to talk about

00:00:12 ◼   ► probably one of the most common but yet

00:00:15 ◼   ► challenging parts of being a developer

00:00:17 ◼   ► at least in my experience and that deals

00:00:19 ◼   ► with unexpected complexity when you

00:00:23 ◼   ► start off working on something and you

00:00:25 ◼   ► have a kind of an expectation of how

00:00:27 ◼   ► complicated it's going to be to do what

00:00:29 ◼   ► it's going to look like the effort

00:00:30 ◼   ► involved the time involved and then you

00:00:33 ◼   ► sit down you open up Xcode you start

00:00:35 ◼   ► programming and it turns out that it's a

00:00:38 ◼   ► complete nightmare and it's going to be

00:00:39 ◼   ► way more effort and way more work and

00:00:41 ◼   ► that experience happens so often that I

00:00:45 ◼   ► think having a good like process and

00:00:47 ◼   ► mindset about dealing with it is one of

00:00:50 ◼   ► the very important things of being able

00:00:51 ◼   ► to ship software in a reasonable time

00:00:54 ◼   ► and reasonable quality and I think we

00:00:56 ◼   ► both recently had an experience that

00:00:58 ◼   ► kind of fell into that category and so

00:01:01 ◼   ► it was kind of it's this episode I think

00:01:03 ◼   ► will be more of a case study style in

00:01:05 ◼   ► terms of talking through our experiences

00:01:07 ◼   ► and so I believe that is the experience

00:01:10 ◼   ► that you had when you were working on

00:01:11 ◼   ► the streaming engine for overcast am i

00:01:13 ◼   ► right oh yeah I mean streaming as a

00:01:16 ◼   ► feature you know so overcast as a

00:01:18 ◼   ► podcast player and the the built-in

00:01:22 ◼   ► Apple API is for playing media using AV

00:01:25 ◼   ► player

00:01:25 ◼   ► most of that stuff supports streaming

00:01:28 ◼   ► out of the box you don't really have to

00:01:30 ◼   ► do much to enable it or I mean depending

00:01:33 ◼   ► on how much you want your interface to

00:01:35 ◼   ► behave you don't necessarily have to do

00:01:36 ◼   ► anything so it's it's very it's

00:01:38 ◼   ► relatively easy to support streaming

00:01:41 ◼   ► media just as well as you do locally

00:01:43 ◼   ► played media if you're using AV player

00:01:44 ◼   ► but one of overcast biggest selling

00:01:47 ◼   ► features and one of the things that

00:01:48 ◼   ► makes it most compelling at both to me

00:01:50 ◼   ► and to many of the users is my custom

00:01:53 ◼   ► audio engine with a feature called smart

00:01:56 ◼   ► speed where smart speed dynamically

00:01:58 ◼   ► adjusts the playback and and the way it

00:02:00 ◼   ► works is it there's a processing

00:02:05 ◼   ► function that needs to read in the audio

00:02:08 ◼   ► samples in the middle of the processing

00:02:10 ◼   ► stream and then

00:02:12 ◼   ► output possibly a different number of

00:02:14 ◼   ► them if it's speeding up the sound so it

00:02:17 ◼   ► might it might take in 500 samples and

00:02:20 ◼   ► then the middle of it might be silence

00:02:22 ◼   ► as it detects silence so it might

00:02:24 ◼   ► compress that down to 300 samples so you

00:02:27 ◼   ► need you need the ability to inject it's

00:02:30 ◼   ► the pressing stage a function that can

00:02:32 ◼   ► read faster than it can output and that

00:02:35 ◼   ► is not possible with a B player there is

00:02:37 ◼   ► no method there's no mechanism to do

00:02:38 ◼   ► that that I have found at all I mean

00:02:40 ◼   ► really if anyone knows I'm really

00:02:41 ◼   ► curious but I have looked many times

00:02:44 ◼   ► every time there's a new SDK I look I've

00:02:46 ◼   ► asked Apple engineers at WB DC and in

00:02:49 ◼   ► labs and via email and it really does

00:02:51 ◼   ► seem like it was just not possible with

00:02:52 ◼   ► AV player so the way I do this is I

00:02:55 ◼   ► actually just wrote the I basically

00:02:57 ◼   ► wrote my own AV player it's it's a not a

00:02:59 ◼   ► small task and and it's I'm writing at

00:03:02 ◼   ► the core audio and audio units levels

00:03:04 ◼   ► and you know custom decoding of

00:03:07 ◼   ► everything and when you go lower level

00:03:09 ◼   ► to enable this they're the easiest way

00:03:13 ◼   ► to do it is something called the ext G's

00:03:16 ◼   ► ext audio file API and that is that only

00:03:21 ◼   ► works for for locally stored files it

00:03:24 ◼   ► does not work for streams there's a

00:03:26 ◼   ► separate API the audio file stream API

00:03:28 ◼   ► that is lower level than that and that

00:03:30 ◼   ► you can you can supply stream data to

00:03:33 ◼   ► you still have to manage the fetching of

00:03:35 ◼   ► the stream yourself and a lot you have

00:03:37 ◼   ► managed a lot yourself so the the job of

00:03:40 ◼   ► streaming was to convert from that ext

00:03:43 ◼   ► audio file API that only does local

00:03:45 ◼   ► files to the lower-level

00:03:47 ◼   ► audio file stream API and also then

00:03:50 ◼   ► build out all the UI behind it build at

00:03:53 ◼   ► the network fetcher that the actual

00:03:54 ◼   ► streamer that can stream things and of

00:03:56 ◼   ► course make it all performant and

00:03:59 ◼   ► responsible of data usage and memory and

00:04:01 ◼   ► responsible of the CPU and also handle a

00:04:06 ◼   ► whole bunch of weird edge cases and I I

00:04:08 ◼   ► knew it was gonna be a big job going in

00:04:11 ◼   ► but I didn't quite realize how big how

00:04:14 ◼   ► many of those edge cases there would be

00:04:16 ◼   ► how tricky some of them would be to

00:04:17 ◼   ► solve and the biggest thing like when

00:04:20 ◼   ► we're talking about unexpected

00:04:20 ◼   ► complexity the biggest thing for me is

00:04:23 ◼   ► unexpected time that it takes

00:04:26 ◼   ► you know this is why our business is

00:04:28 ◼   ► historically so bad at estimating time

00:04:31 ◼   ► and chip dates and when you're

00:04:32 ◼   ► independent I don't think we're any

00:04:34 ◼   ► better at it you know I think in many

00:04:36 ◼   ► ways meant be worse

00:04:37 ◼   ► how do you do you find that you are good

00:04:40 ◼   ► at estimating time I think the honest

00:04:42 ◼   ► answer is that I've stopped estimating

00:04:44 ◼   ► time or even trying to like I have found

00:04:49 ◼   ► that it doesn't actually help for like I

00:04:52 ◼   ► have this vague sense of like I would

00:04:53 ◼   ► like sometimes I have that the only

00:04:55 ◼   ► deadline I usually have is a new devices

00:04:57 ◼   ► being shipped or a new OS is being

00:04:59 ◼   ► shipped like there's something specific

00:05:01 ◼   ► that like if I want to be there on day

00:05:03 ◼   ► one of the iOS 9 launch then I need to

00:05:06 ◼   ► you know be in this habit my app ready

00:05:08 ◼   ► by the beginning of June of September

00:05:09 ◼   ► like other than that I try hard to not

00:05:12 ◼   ► think too much about timelines because

00:05:14 ◼   ► every time I've tried to do that it

00:05:17 ◼   ► never works like that's semantics like

00:05:19 ◼   ► the class is the most like universal

00:05:21 ◼   ► experience of software engineering is

00:05:22 ◼   ► you think it's going to take two weeks

00:05:25 ◼   ► it ends up taking four weeks and that's

00:05:27 ◼   ► just the reality of like you're all like

00:05:30 ◼   ► as you I mean I think it sounds a little

00:05:32 ◼   ► bit like you have the same experience

00:05:33 ◼   ► like you start off thinking okay maybe I

00:05:35 ◼   ► can do this with these high-level api's

00:05:37 ◼   ► like you know these things apples you

00:05:40 ◼   ► know has put together their tried and

00:05:41 ◼   ► true whatever and you start using it and

00:05:43 ◼   ► it's like okay it does most of what I

00:05:46 ◼   ► need but it doesn't do this one critical

00:05:48 ◼   ► thing and you start being like how

00:05:50 ◼   ► critical is that well it's probably

00:05:52 ◼   ► pretty critical and so you like you step

00:05:53 ◼   ► you take your neck next step down and

00:05:55 ◼   ► then you take your next step down and

00:05:57 ◼   ► then before long you're just like

00:05:58 ◼   ► reimplemented all kinds of crazy stuff

00:06:00 ◼   ► and you have no way of knowing

00:06:02 ◼   ► superficially what that's going to look

00:06:05 ◼   ► how many love stacks deep how much

00:06:07 ◼   ► rewriting and rebuilding of stuff you're

00:06:09 ◼   ► gonna need to end up doing to get what

00:06:11 ◼   ► you're going to do and so then I was

00:06:12 ◼   ► just like I don't know I'll just sort of

00:06:14 ◼   ► hope for the best

00:06:15 ◼   ► and like other than for ios9 things you

00:06:18 ◼   ► know an idea for those I just tend to

00:06:19 ◼   ► say like how much like I'll just work

00:06:21 ◼   ► until I can't I run out of time and just

00:06:24 ◼   ► try and structure what I'm working on

00:06:26 ◼   ► such that I can like you know not not be

00:06:30 ◼   ► half-finished have like half the things

00:06:32 ◼   ► fully finished rather than all the

00:06:34 ◼   ► things half finished but yet estimating

00:06:37 ◼   ► time is a complete nightmare I find yeah

00:06:39 ◼   ► and and we're lucky that when we're

00:06:42 ◼   ► working for ourselves on our own product

00:06:45 ◼   ► for the most part our time estimates

00:06:47 ◼   ► aren't that important because for the

00:06:48 ◼   ► most part you know only the users are

00:06:50 ◼   ► demanding things if anybody it's it's

00:06:52 ◼   ► not like you know when you're when

00:06:54 ◼   ► you're a consultant the pressure is much

00:06:55 ◼   ► stronger on you to meet the clients

00:06:57 ◼   ► deadlines or when you're working for a

00:07:00 ◼   ► company you know when you're working

00:07:01 ◼   ► directly on your employer's product it's

00:07:04 ◼   ► you know you have similar pressures from

00:07:06 ◼   ► that but when you're consulting you if

00:07:08 ◼   ► you have a whole different aspect of it

00:07:09 ◼   ► which is that you know the client is

00:07:11 ◼   ► often directly paying you for the time

00:07:13 ◼   ► that you are taking and that of course

00:07:16 ◼   ► makes you even more complex we are both

00:07:18 ◼   ► lucky that we're not currently in that

00:07:19 ◼   ► kind of role but certainly I would I

00:07:22 ◼   ► would say from from just anecdotal

00:07:24 ◼   ► evidence it seems like the vast majority

00:07:26 ◼   ► of iOS developers are involved in some

00:07:28 ◼   ► kind of contract work that that seems to

00:07:31 ◼   ► be the biggest chunk of the of the iOS

00:07:34 ◼   ► workers out there and and time estimates

00:07:37 ◼   ► are such a nightmare there I've just

00:07:38 ◼   ► we're both lucky that we can't really

00:07:40 ◼   ► talk much about it because I haven't

00:07:42 ◼   ► done it in forever and even when I did

00:07:44 ◼   ► it I didn't do very much of it and you

00:07:46 ◼   ► it's been a while since you've been

00:07:47 ◼   ► consulting as well right yeah I mean

00:07:48 ◼   ► I've the last time I did regular

00:07:51 ◼   ► consulting was probably four or five

00:07:53 ◼   ► years ago something like that like I

00:07:55 ◼   ► started out as a consultant that was

00:07:56 ◼   ► what I was doing to initially but it's

00:07:59 ◼   ► been a long time since that made up any

00:08:00 ◼   ► kind of significant portion of my

00:08:02 ◼   ► business and I Helen very quickly when I

00:08:05 ◼   ► was doing consulting though to not

00:08:07 ◼   ► commit to time estimates and as much as

00:08:11 ◼   ► I could because you're always going to

00:08:13 ◼   ► run into that there's always some kind

00:08:14 ◼   ► of complexity that you're not expecting

00:08:15 ◼   ► and if you don't plan for it if you

00:08:18 ◼   ► don't look at a problem and say like

00:08:20 ◼   ► whatever you it's like the old rule of

00:08:21 ◼   ► like whatever you think it's going to

00:08:22 ◼   ► take like multiply it by three and least

00:08:25 ◼   ► you're probably you're probably well off

00:08:27 ◼   ► but yeah I try as best like the first

00:08:30 ◼   ► rule like but if you definitely have

00:08:32 ◼   ► that experience when you start off

00:08:32 ◼   ► consulting where you start to say like

00:08:34 ◼   ► oh it's gonna take such you know that'll

00:08:36 ◼   ► only be like a week's worth of work and

00:08:38 ◼   ► you commit to the client to do that and

00:08:39 ◼   ► then it never ends up being a week's

00:08:41 ◼   ► worth of work it's just that's just the

00:08:43 ◼   ► reality I mean even and I mean with with

00:08:46 ◼   ► streaming I had so many problems with I

00:08:48 ◼   ► would I started it I think three or four

00:08:51 ◼   ► times and I would get down a certain

00:08:53 ◼   ► path or try to try to approach it in a

00:08:55 ◼   ► certain way and realize that it was just

00:08:58 ◼   ► it was just never gonna work I was never

00:09:00 ◼   ► gonna be able to complete it in the way

00:09:02 ◼   ► I was doing it or it just was not

00:09:04 ◼   ► working or I had made too many mistakes

00:09:06 ◼   ► or I had made too many subtle bugs that

00:09:09 ◼   ► I couldn't find at the very low levels

00:09:11 ◼   ► and so I would just scrap it and start

00:09:12 ◼   ► over again and when when you're at a big

00:09:15 ◼   ► time crunch you don't usually have the

00:09:18 ◼   ► opportunity to do that and that can be a

00:09:20 ◼   ► blessing and a curse you know if you do

00:09:22 ◼   ► that too much then you're wasting a

00:09:24 ◼   ► whole bunch of time and like you know

00:09:25 ◼   ► it's never going to be perfect it's

00:09:27 ◼   ► never going to be exactly the perfect

00:09:28 ◼   ► design exactly what you want and so if

00:09:30 ◼   ► you if you have too many opportunities

00:09:31 ◼   ► to cancel it and start over again you're

00:09:34 ◼   ► just gonna kill tons of time but if you

00:09:35 ◼   ► don't have any opportunities to do that

00:09:37 ◼   ► which is often the case when you're

00:09:38 ◼   ► under time pressure from a client say I

00:09:40 ◼   ► feel like it's hard to get good quality

00:09:42 ◼   ► work because you really do learn a lot

00:09:45 ◼   ► if you try to do something didn't get a

00:09:48 ◼   ► chance to throw it away and do it over

00:09:49 ◼   ► again yeah I think one thing that I was

00:09:51 ◼   ► my experience like whenever I've

00:09:53 ◼   ► encountered these kind of problems like

00:09:55 ◼   ► where I'm trying to deal with something

00:09:57 ◼   ► that ends up being really much more

00:09:58 ◼   ► complicated than I think like I I start

00:10:00 ◼   ► off with a mental model for the problem

00:10:02 ◼   ► that is straightforward for example the

00:10:05 ◼   ► thing that I would most recently ran

00:10:06 ◼   ► into this with is I did a data syncing

00:10:08 ◼   ► and merging algorithm for pedometer plus

00:10:10 ◼   ► plus so like it takes the steps from

00:10:13 ◼   ► your watch and your phone and make gives

00:10:15 ◼   ► you a unified view of them in semi

00:10:17 ◼   ► real-time which is at first I was like

00:10:19 ◼   ► oh the mental model for this is great

00:10:21 ◼   ► there's health kids right I can just use

00:10:22 ◼   ► health get and you can't because that's

00:10:25 ◼   ► not how healthy it works because it's

00:10:26 ◼   ► not available on the watch in the way

00:10:28 ◼   ► that shows you phone data so I very

00:10:30 ◼   ► quickly discovered that like my original

00:10:31 ◼   ► mental model was completely wrong and so

00:10:35 ◼   ► then like but I might process tends to

00:10:36 ◼   ► be I have this really straightforward

00:10:38 ◼   ► mental model it ends up not working and

00:10:40 ◼   ► then I end up going down these crazy

00:10:42 ◼   ► paths of like incredibly complicated

00:10:45 ◼   ► solutions like all of these really like

00:10:48 ◼   ► brittle and not really gonna work

00:10:50 ◼   ► solutions like all kinds of crazy -

00:10:52 ◼   ► algorithms and merging schemes and way

00:10:54 ◼   ► of throwing data back and forth and you

00:10:55 ◼   ► get to the end and the times I'm most

00:10:58 ◼   ► satisfied with my work though or when I

00:11:00 ◼   ► end up after all of that with a simple

00:11:03 ◼   ► solution again that is informed by all

00:11:06 ◼   ► of those crazy

00:11:07 ◼   ► paths down there down the way like you

00:11:09 ◼   ► can learn the lesson and be like okay

00:11:11 ◼   ► actually I don't need to do all these

00:11:13 ◼   ► crazy things now that I understand the

00:11:15 ◼   ► problem fully from like top to bottom I

00:11:17 ◼   ► can say okay I don't need to worry about

00:11:20 ◼   ► the data at all these in all these crazy

00:11:22 ◼   ► ways I can just somehow make all these

00:11:23 ◼   ► sort of nice simplifying assumptions

00:11:26 ◼   ► about how it is because I've tested and

00:11:28 ◼   ► verified that that those are those work

00:11:30 ◼   ► and then I can build like a solution

00:11:32 ◼   ► that's almost as simple as the one I

00:11:34 ◼   ► started off with wanting to build and

00:11:36 ◼   ► then now that actually deals with all

00:11:38 ◼   ► that complexity and like whenever I'm

00:11:39 ◼   ► able to go through that process it's

00:11:40 ◼   ► like it starts simple

00:11:41 ◼   ► it gets horrific ly messy and then it

00:11:43 ◼   ► gets simple again I know I've done doing

00:11:45 ◼   ► it right

00:11:46 ◼   ► Hyup if ever it is having to stop in

00:11:49 ◼   ► that middle state where it's still

00:11:50 ◼   ► really messy like I know it's gonna

00:11:52 ◼   ► break I know it's not gonna work like it

00:11:55 ◼   ► needs to be something that I could just

00:11:56 ◼   ► describe to myself in just like a few a

00:11:59 ◼   ► few sentences or something has probably

00:12:02 ◼   ► gone wrong what kind of system did you

00:12:05 ◼   ► end up with to address the the watch OS

00:12:08 ◼   ► 2 or watch kit to sync problem because

00:12:11 ◼   ► you know as as you are very well aware

00:12:14 ◼   ► and as some of our games might be you

00:12:17 ◼   ► know with what watch kit 1 apps were

00:12:20 ◼   ► actually fairly straightforward and

00:12:22 ◼   ► simple to make because they couldn't do

00:12:23 ◼   ► that much and because they were running

00:12:25 ◼   ► on the phone in the app sandbox and the

00:12:28 ◼   ► same sandbox is the iPhone app so that

00:12:30 ◼   ► you could have a shared container and

00:12:31 ◼   ► that and the iPhone app and the watch

00:12:34 ◼   ► app could literally be reading and

00:12:36 ◼   ► running from the same data and and

00:12:38 ◼   ► that's how I structure the overcast

00:12:39 ◼   ► watch app which is I just moved the the

00:12:42 ◼   ► database file the SQLite file into the

00:12:45 ◼   ► the app container and then the the

00:12:48 ◼   ► communication between the watch app and

00:12:51 ◼   ► the phone app is limited only to

00:12:52 ◼   ► basically commands and status updates

00:12:55 ◼   ► and all the data the watch app reads the

00:12:58 ◼   ► data right off the database and you know

00:13:00 ◼   ► the phone just tells the watch when it

00:13:02 ◼   ► has changed and the watch reads it so

00:13:04 ◼   ► it's it's actually you know very quite

00:13:06 ◼   ► simple in that way because there is no

00:13:08 ◼   ► sync issue if the watch can't reach the

00:13:11 ◼   ► phone at the given moment you just can't

00:13:14 ◼   ► use the overcast app because it's all it

00:13:16 ◼   ► is a remote control for the phone so

00:13:19 ◼   ► it's great with watch OS 2

00:13:21 ◼   ► that that shared data container no

00:13:23 ◼   ► longer quite exists the same way or at

00:13:26 ◼   ► all really it doesn't exist at all yeah

00:13:27 ◼   ► right so so with watch OS 2 it is like

00:13:30 ◼   ► it you are running two separate apps and

00:13:32 ◼   ► you need to figure out how they're going

00:13:33 ◼   ► to communicate with each other and there

00:13:35 ◼   ► you know there's method there's methods

00:13:36 ◼   ► to do the basics but there is no like

00:13:39 ◼   ► automatic magical syncing that happens

00:13:41 ◼   ► so you have to deal with how these

00:13:43 ◼   ► things synchronize their data yourself

00:13:45 ◼   ► that's one of the reasons why I haven't

00:13:47 ◼   ► made an overcast watch OS 2 app why I'm

00:13:51 ◼   ► just key I just keep having the the OS

00:13:53 ◼   ► one app first of all because it works

00:13:56 ◼   ► well enough in a watch I was to improved

00:13:58 ◼   ► watchkit reliability quite a bit and so

00:14:00 ◼   ► it the app works well enough for the

00:14:02 ◼   ► most part but also you know that it

00:14:05 ◼   ► would be a major undertaking as you say

00:14:06 ◼   ► as you discovered you know it's a major

00:14:08 ◼   ► undertaking - all of a sudden tackle

00:14:10 ◼   ► these two - all of a sudden take

00:14:12 ◼   ► something that used to be a dumb remote

00:14:13 ◼   ► and make it a full app with its own

00:14:16 ◼   ► local storage and the problem of syncing

00:14:19 ◼   ► both ways and so you know if you if you

00:14:21 ◼   ► take the phone away and you have the

00:14:23 ◼   ► watch off by itself somewhere playing

00:14:25 ◼   ► podcast somehow which is own separate

00:14:27 ◼   ► bag of hurt of like you know how capable

00:14:29 ◼   ► that is right now and watch iOS 2.0 but

00:14:32 ◼   ► if you somehow do that then you have to

00:14:35 ◼   ► when upon reconnection to the phone you

00:14:38 ◼   ► have to sync up that data again and

00:14:39 ◼   ► resolve possible conflicts and it's it's

00:14:42 ◼   ► a it's a very it's a much larger problem

00:14:45 ◼   ► than it seems upon first glance because

00:14:47 ◼   ► while the API is and everything are all

00:14:49 ◼   ► very similar to what they were and watch

00:14:51 ◼   ► oh and watch get one the the data model

00:14:54 ◼   ► is totally different and that's where

00:14:56 ◼   ► most of the complexity I think would lie

00:14:57 ◼   ► and I haven't yet decided that's worth

00:15:00 ◼   ► the investment apps for the Apple watch

00:15:02 ◼   ► are a whole whole separate topic but I I

00:15:05 ◼   ► have found generally that that I'm I'm

00:15:07 ◼   ► very scared to tackle that this is one

00:15:09 ◼   ► of the few times where I've spotted that

00:15:11 ◼   ► that complexity ahead of time and and

00:15:14 ◼   ► possibly wisely I don't know but

00:15:16 ◼   ► possibly wisely I'm avoiding it yeah

00:15:19 ◼   ► because I think what I've ended up

00:15:20 ◼   ► having to do in watch OS 2 is

00:15:23 ◼   ► essentially you have to build two

00:15:25 ◼   ► completely independent can run on their

00:15:29 ◼   ► own apps like the watch app has to be

00:15:32 ◼   ► able to run entirely on its own without

00:15:34 ◼   ► the

00:15:34 ◼   ► able to like phone home to the to the

00:15:37 ◼   ► phone the phone app obviously needs to

00:15:39 ◼   ► be able to run without the watch which

00:15:40 ◼   ► isn't that much of a stretch because

00:15:42 ◼   ► that's what it does if you don't own a

00:15:43 ◼   ► watch and then you have to do these

00:15:46 ◼   ► funny things because the communication

00:15:48 ◼   ► between the two is not reliable both in

00:15:52 ◼   ► terms of sometimes the watch is just

00:15:54 ◼   ► physically not close enough to the phone

00:15:57 ◼   ► in order to communicate and also

00:15:59 ◼   ► sometimes the just the api's and things

00:16:02 ◼   ► like because I think it's because

00:16:04 ◼   ► they're trying to do so much about power

00:16:06 ◼   ► management and you know sometimes

00:16:08 ◼   ► certain types of messages only go

00:16:09 ◼   ► through if it's a good you know it's a

00:16:12 ◼   ► good thing from a energy perspective to

00:16:13 ◼   ► be able to do like the radios are all

00:16:15 ◼   ► turned up and fired up so hey let's go

00:16:17 ◼   ► ahead and send it right away if they're

00:16:18 ◼   ► not maybe we'll wait and see if we are

00:16:20 ◼   ► going to fire up the radio anyway for

00:16:22 ◼   ► the next you know in the next second if

00:16:24 ◼   ► not then maybe we'll do it and so you

00:16:26 ◼   ► have to build the system that is very

00:16:29 ◼   ► head makes no assumptions about being

00:16:32 ◼   ► able to talk to the other part but still

00:16:34 ◼   ► gives your user a consistent experience

00:16:37 ◼   ► across both and that's where like from

00:16:40 ◼   ► for this project that I was working on

00:16:41 ◼   ► became like the really crazy thing

00:16:42 ◼   ► because like a pedometer in some ways is

00:16:45 ◼   ► very simple like both at both devices

00:16:47 ◼   ► have a motion processor on it that tells

00:16:50 ◼   ► you how many steps they took in a

00:16:51 ◼   ► particular time period like that's all

00:16:53 ◼   ► they do and that's most of what the app

00:16:54 ◼   ► is doing and so I could run completely

00:16:57 ◼   ► independently in terms of like if you

00:16:59 ◼   ► just if I could just showed you the

00:17:01 ◼   ► watch's steps on the watch app and it

00:17:03 ◼   ► just showed you the phone steps on the

00:17:05 ◼   ► phone app it'd be trivial but I want to

00:17:07 ◼   ► be able to do is I've seen merge those

00:17:08 ◼   ► together and say like which one is a

00:17:10 ◼   ► better representation of what you're

00:17:12 ◼   ► doing and that BK is where all the crazy

00:17:15 ◼   ► complexity comes in because I had a

00:17:17 ◼   ► couple of things that I was like oh so

00:17:19 ◼   ► many of like conflict resolution

00:17:20 ◼   ► strategies don't really work in this

00:17:22 ◼   ► scenario because I can't just do simple

00:17:24 ◼   ► things like who updated most recently or

00:17:26 ◼   ► things because if I can ever for example

00:17:29 ◼   ► make someone step count go down well I

00:17:32 ◼   ► guess I could but conceptually I've

00:17:34 ◼   ► always had that be like a rule for the

00:17:36 ◼   ► app that if I ever even if it was like

00:17:38 ◼   ► slightly an error if I ever showed you a

00:17:40 ◼   ► step count like for example you hit your

00:17:41 ◼   ► goal right like you got 10,000 steps

00:17:43 ◼   ► confetti comes down from the screen

00:17:45 ◼   ► hooray you did it I don't want you to

00:17:47 ◼   ► then like sync up with your watch and

00:17:48 ◼   ► say like

00:17:48 ◼   ► actually now we think that you did 9000

00:17:51 ◼   ► steps like that would be terrible

00:17:53 ◼   ► right to withdraw somebody's confetti

00:17:54 ◼   ► yeah like I'm sorry your confetti now

00:17:56 ◼   ► goes back up to the top of the screen

00:17:57 ◼   ► and animate it in Reverse

00:17:59 ◼   ► it's like it I think that'd be awful

00:18:01 ◼   ► right play like a sad trombone yeah and

00:18:04 ◼   ► so you have to like a lot of my syncing

00:18:05 ◼   ► stuff is about saying like what's the

00:18:07 ◼   ► biggest number of steps that you've

00:18:08 ◼   ► shown the user for the particular time

00:18:11 ◼   ► period that we're looking at and syncing

00:18:14 ◼   ► that up so that if I ever needed to show

00:18:18 ◼   ► as sort of add extra steps I have I know

00:18:20 ◼   ► what I need to add and also I need to do

00:18:23 ◼   ► that but like it's not just like as

00:18:25 ◼   ► simple as like who's shown more because

00:18:27 ◼   ► the nature of these devices is like

00:18:29 ◼   ► which one of them one of them is going

00:18:31 ◼   ► to be showing you a better view of the

00:18:32 ◼   ► user's activity probably at any one time

00:18:34 ◼   ► like when I'm walking and pushing my

00:18:36 ◼   ► daughter in a stroller my phone in my

00:18:39 ◼   ► pocket is gonna be a better idea of how

00:18:41 ◼   ► many steps I am because my wrist is

00:18:42 ◼   ► actually not moving you know it's

00:18:43 ◼   ► attached to a stroller pushing it along

00:18:45 ◼   ► but when my phone is like in a backpack

00:18:48 ◼   ► or in my or like my wife runs into this

00:18:50 ◼   ► a lot like her phone will be in her

00:18:52 ◼   ► purse but her watch is on her wrist so

00:18:54 ◼   ► then her her watch is the better

00:18:55 ◼   ► indicator of steps and so it's like

00:18:57 ◼   ► having to work out a scheme that is in

00:18:59 ◼   ► real-time dynamically working out which

00:19:01 ◼   ► one based on the information we have

00:19:03 ◼   ► which we may or may not have all the

00:19:05 ◼   ► time looking at the two data streams and

00:19:08 ◼   ► merging them together and like that is

00:19:10 ◼   ► what you end up having having said like

00:19:12 ◼   ► that's the the minimum threshold for

00:19:15 ◼   ► having this thing work is you have to

00:19:16 ◼   ► have built a system that can do all that

00:19:18 ◼   ► like that was the complexity for me that

00:19:20 ◼   ► just became like wow this is a whole

00:19:22 ◼   ► bigger thing than I would ever imagined

00:19:24 ◼   ► it would be yeah and this and that's

00:19:27 ◼   ► like one of the one of the things that

00:19:29 ◼   ► makes these unexpected complexities so

00:19:32 ◼   ► so frustrating or so powerful is that

00:19:37 ◼   ► again they're unexpected you have no

00:19:39 ◼   ► idea when in a project you're going to

00:19:41 ◼   ► hit something like this until you hit it

00:19:43 ◼   ► and head so like you know it the more

00:19:45 ◼   ► experience you get as a developer or

00:19:48 ◼   ► just as a person who lives in life then

00:19:51 ◼   ► the more experience you get it becomes a

00:19:54 ◼   ► little bit more likely that you'll spot

00:19:56 ◼   ► them ahead of time and and be able to

00:19:58 ◼   ► possibly either avoid them or at least

00:19:59 ◼   ► at least like budget for them but

00:20:02 ◼   ► they're still

00:20:02 ◼   ► always like stuff that you hit it's

00:20:04 ◼   ► unexpected and it can totally throw a

00:20:07 ◼   ► project off so like you know one thing

00:20:09 ◼   ► that I do to manage this is if I if I

00:20:13 ◼   ► can tell something is going to be a big

00:20:14 ◼   ► hairy mess a lot of times I'll just cut

00:20:17 ◼   ► the feature I'll just you know I'll just

00:20:18 ◼   ► avoid it I'll say sorry that's that's

00:20:20 ◼   ► not worth doing we know with overcast

00:20:22 ◼   ► I knew streaming was going to be a big

00:20:23 ◼   ► deal so for version 1.0 I just didn't

00:20:26 ◼   ► include it i I couldn't ship it in time

00:20:29 ◼   ► I thought it is tomato that it would be

00:20:31 ◼   ► a better idea to ship the app without

00:20:33 ◼   ► streaming than to wait another six

00:20:36 ◼   ► months to a year to tube add streaming

00:20:39 ◼   ► that turn out to be correct and in the

00:20:41 ◼   ► case of my watch app now where I I have

00:20:44 ◼   ► the watch OS one app the watch OS two

00:20:46 ◼   ► app would be a ton of work and and would

00:20:49 ◼   ► be different and might not be better you

00:20:51 ◼   ► know my it might just be different I

00:20:53 ◼   ► calculated so far that at the moment it

00:20:56 ◼   ► isn't worth investing the time in that

00:20:57 ◼   ► and it might never be I don't know but

00:21:00 ◼   ► certainly right now it isn't worth

00:21:01 ◼   ► investing with time in that when I could

00:21:03 ◼   ► instead be doing something with the same

00:21:04 ◼   ► amount of time I can instead be doing

00:21:06 ◼   ► something like the Apple TV app or or a

00:21:09 ◼   ► major new feature or a new e and even a

00:21:12 ◼   ► brand new app if I wanted to like I you

00:21:14 ◼   ► have to really decide what's worth

00:21:16 ◼   ► syncing all this time into and sometimes

00:21:19 ◼   ► it isn't the big hairy problem in front

00:21:21 ◼   ► of you sometimes that problem is best

00:21:23 ◼   ► off just staying unsolved that feature

00:21:26 ◼   ► might be better off staying

00:21:27 ◼   ► unimplemented and or that app that might

00:21:31 ◼   ► be better off not being made and you

00:21:32 ◼   ► might be better off spending that time

00:21:33 ◼   ► in other ways because you can do a lot

00:21:36 ◼   ► of low-hanging fruit in other parts of

00:21:39 ◼   ► your app or as other apps in the same at

00:21:42 ◼   ► a time that you could tackle one big

00:21:43 ◼   ► hairy problem in one app and it might

00:21:45 ◼   ► not be worth it our sponsor this week is

00:21:48 ◼   ► need to go to need addition com need is

00:21:51 ◼   ► a curated retailer and lifestyle

00:21:52 ◼   ► publication for the modern gentlemen

00:21:54 ◼   ► each week need launches new collections

00:21:56 ◼   ► of exclusive clothing literature

00:21:58 ◼   ► furniture and more now earlier this

00:22:01 ◼   ► month coinciding with the company's

00:22:02 ◼   ► second birthday need luncheon all new

00:22:04 ◼   ► site expanding its availability into 43

00:22:06 ◼   ► countries in Europe South America Asia

00:22:09 ◼   ► and the Middle East

00:22:10 ◼   ► shipping is flat rate for all

00:22:11 ◼   ► international orders and free for all

00:22:13 ◼   ► orders to the US Canada and

00:22:15 ◼   ► Mexico and all returns are free no

00:22:18 ◼   ► matter where you are all over the world

00:22:19 ◼   ► this month Neda's launched three

00:22:21 ◼   ► collections including their holiday gift

00:22:23 ◼   ► guide featuring dozens of gift ideas for

00:22:25 ◼   ► the holidays many of which are under $40

00:22:28 ◼   ► neat is designed to be simple

00:22:29 ◼   ► straightforward and uncomplicated

00:22:31 ◼   ► they include prepaid return labels with

00:22:33 ◼   ► all shipments there for 24/7 support and

00:22:36 ◼   ► there aren't any subscriptions or

00:22:38 ◼   ► stylists or other gimmicks to deal with

00:22:39 ◼   ► it's just a straightforward retailer

00:22:41 ◼   ► simply come along to neat addition com

00:22:44 ◼   ► peruse the latest collections and shop

00:22:46 ◼   ► or don't your choice for listeners of

00:22:49 ◼   ► this show use coupon code read our for

00:22:51 ◼   ► 20% off that is coupon code radar at

00:22:54 ◼   ► neat addition calm for 20% off anything

00:22:56 ◼   ► thank you so much to our friends at need

00:22:58 ◼   ► for sponsoring under the radar

00:23:00 ◼   ► getting back to one thing that you just

00:23:02 ◼   ► said that I think is probably a good

00:23:04 ◼   ► place to do binding down this discussion

00:23:06 ◼   ► is I think the thing that I've learned

00:23:08 ◼   ► most like this is the like the

00:23:10 ◼   ► battle-hardened wisdom of dealing with

00:23:12 ◼   ► complexity is making sure that I'm

00:23:16 ◼   ► solving the the problem for the right

00:23:19 ◼   ► reason I think most of us who get into

00:23:22 ◼   ► software engineering or whatever you

00:23:24 ◼   ► want to call what we do we like solving

00:23:27 ◼   ► problems and the problems that we like

00:23:29 ◼   ► solving most are the most difficult

00:23:31 ◼   ► interesting tricky problems like if that

00:23:34 ◼   ► is I think I'm mu I'm in my element the

00:23:36 ◼   ► most I'm the most engaged I'm the most

00:23:38 ◼   ► excited about what I'm doing when I'm

00:23:40 ◼   ► solving a really interesting problem

00:23:41 ◼   ► like if I'm just writing boilerplate

00:23:43 ◼   ► code that's not nearly as exciting and

00:23:47 ◼   ► something I want to really like wrap my

00:23:48 ◼   ► arms around and get you know sort of get

00:23:49 ◼   ► up in the morning to dive into and so

00:23:52 ◼   ► the thing that I though then always have

00:23:53 ◼   ► to keep in the back of my mind when I

00:23:55 ◼   ► find a problem like this when I'm

00:23:56 ◼   ► working along on a task and I find that

00:23:58 ◼   ► there's this big unexpected bump in

00:23:59 ◼   ► complexity like you were just saying

00:24:02 ◼   ► like sometimes you're just worth not

00:24:03 ◼   ► doing it like I think I know I've had to

00:24:05 ◼   ► teach myself some discipline with is

00:24:07 ◼   ► that I see when I see a problem like

00:24:08 ◼   ► that when I seize an opportunity to

00:24:10 ◼   ► really like you'd go crazy spelunking

00:24:12 ◼   ► like dive deep down into some crazy low

00:24:14 ◼   ► api's and like build this crazy cool

00:24:16 ◼   ► clever system make sure that I'm not

00:24:19 ◼   ► just doing it like because it would be

00:24:21 ◼   ► intellectually fun and interesting like

00:24:24 ◼   ► sometimes there's a place for that but

00:24:25 ◼   ► I've definitely caught myself sometimes

00:24:28 ◼   ► just building things

00:24:29 ◼   ► because I think it would be fun and it

00:24:32 ◼   ► wouldn't actually make my customers

00:24:33 ◼   ► happier it wouldn't actually make my

00:24:34 ◼   ► products better it would just be fun for

00:24:37 ◼   ► me to do and I end up going down you

00:24:40 ◼   ► know these crazy rabbit holes and doing

00:24:41 ◼   ► all these things and often the reality

00:24:44 ◼   ► is it isn't actually as fun as I thought

00:24:45 ◼   ► it was gonna be like it's fun for the

00:24:48 ◼   ► first few out for the first few hours

00:24:49 ◼   ► first few days and then you just like

00:24:51 ◼   ► it's like you're in this point where

00:24:52 ◼   ► like I will always want to avoid where

00:24:54 ◼   ► it's like I started working on my car

00:24:56 ◼   ► and I've taken it completely apart and

00:24:57 ◼   ► like the NIF I've come to discover like

00:25:00 ◼   ► the fun part was taking it apart the fun

00:25:03 ◼   ► part is not putting it back together and

00:25:04 ◼   ► now I don't have a car anymore

00:25:06 ◼   ► like that's the part where I have to

00:25:08 ◼   ► catch myself and be like am I really

00:25:10 ◼   ► doing this for the right reason is this

00:25:11 ◼   ► complexity worth the effort and having

00:25:15 ◼   ► that kind of taking a step back from

00:25:16 ◼   ► your work is a sort of a habit and a

00:25:19 ◼   ► discipline that I found has been very

00:25:21 ◼   ► helpful in me making sure that I'm

00:25:22 ◼   ► staying on track and especially being

00:25:24 ◼   ► like a one-man shop like there's no one

00:25:26 ◼   ► I don't have a supervisor being like huh

00:25:28 ◼   ► yeah yeah we're just gonna cut that

00:25:30 ◼   ► feature that's that's too much it has to

00:25:32 ◼   ► be something that I have the ability to

00:25:34 ◼   ► not just totally suck down these rabbit

00:25:37 ◼   ► holes and say like yes of course I

00:25:39 ◼   ► needed to do this thing because it's

00:25:40 ◼   ► really interesting and really hard like

00:25:43 ◼   ► I need to be able to say like will this

00:25:44 ◼   ► will look well my customers notice if I

00:25:46 ◼   ► do this and if they won't like am I just

00:25:49 ◼   ► doing this for myself and if I am like

00:25:52 ◼   ► that's kind of sometimes fun but that's

00:25:55 ◼   ► really not a way that you're gonna be

00:25:56 ◼   ► able to reliably ship quality products

00:25:59 ◼   ► you're just gonna end up with a lot of

00:26:00 ◼   ► kind of like crazy half-built things

00:26:02 ◼   ► that probably will end up making your

00:26:04 ◼   ► app more complicated and harder to use

00:26:06 ◼   ► for your customers in the end yeah

00:26:09 ◼   ► that's a fantastic way to look at it and

00:26:11 ◼   ► we all face that that dilemma because I

00:26:13 ◼   ► mean look we've we're all geeks we all

00:26:15 ◼   ► like interesting things we all like

00:26:17 ◼   ► keeping our brains interested and try

00:26:19 ◼   ► new things and approaching problems and

00:26:20 ◼   ► new ways or doing things in better ways

00:26:22 ◼   ► than what we did in the past

00:26:23 ◼   ► it's not that you should never do that

00:26:25 ◼   ► but that there's a balance to be struck

00:26:27 ◼   ► and that that doing that has significant

00:26:29 ◼   ► time costs that may not be worth it

00:26:32 ◼   ► and and you know doing like a major

00:26:34 ◼   ► rewrite of something that already works

00:26:35 ◼   ► might also introduce brand-new bugs in

00:26:37 ◼   ► fact it almost certainly would brand new

00:26:39 ◼   ► bugs that you that you didn't have

00:26:42 ◼   ► before they need to get to go facing

00:26:43 ◼   ► and so it's just a balance you need to

00:26:46 ◼   ► keep yourself happy

00:26:47 ◼   ► and learning and intellectually

00:26:49 ◼   ► satisfied but you also need to ship

00:26:51 ◼   ► products and and it's important to find

00:26:54 ◼   ► that balance and and that's something

00:26:55 ◼   ► that I think mostly just comes with

00:26:57 ◼   ► experience and and wisdom over time it's

00:27:00 ◼   ► it's not that you can never have fun but

00:27:02 ◼   ► that you should know when to have fun

00:27:05 ◼   ► and when it and when it's no longer fun

00:27:07 ◼   ► you need to get back to work yeah and I

00:27:10 ◼   ► think ideally the best lesson I've had

00:27:11 ◼   ► about that is it's trying to have

00:27:13 ◼   ► customer focused development in that way

00:27:15 ◼   ► it's like the time to do that the time

00:27:17 ◼   ► to solve interesting problems is to find

00:27:20 ◼   ► features or find apps or find ideas that

00:27:23 ◼   ► solving a difficult problem will make a

00:27:27 ◼   ► customer's life better and like the

00:27:29 ◼   ► intersection of those two things like a

00:27:31 ◼   ► really interesting technical problem and

00:27:33 ◼   ► a real honest need or pain point in

00:27:36 ◼   ► someone's life like that's where really

00:27:38 ◼   ► interesting and fun work happens and if

00:27:41 ◼   ► you can't sort of honestly say that it's

00:27:43 ◼   ► both interesting to build and useful for

00:27:46 ◼   ► a customer then you're probably not in a

00:27:49 ◼   ► place that is actually worth building

00:27:50 ◼   ► all right thanks life listening

00:27:52 ◼   ► everybody please tell your friends about

00:27:54 ◼   ► the show helps help us spread the word

00:27:56 ◼   ► recommend us an overcast and we'll see

00:27:59 ◼   ► you next week