Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:03 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:05 ◼   ► the radar is never long within 30

00:00:07 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so last

00:00:09 ◼   ► week we talked about kind of why Apple

00:00:12 ◼   ► probably needs to improve the App Store

00:00:13 ◼   ► in broad terms like you know challenging

00:00:16 ◼   ► the the question of like does the after

00:00:19 ◼   ► need to be improved and it's so like

00:00:20 ◼   ► what kind of improvements might we see

00:00:22 ◼   ► and last last week we talked in kind of

00:00:24 ◼   ► high-level of mostly just like why why

00:00:27 ◼   ► we think it really does need improvement

00:00:28 ◼   ► why we aren't just like being selfish

00:00:30 ◼   ► and serving our own needs as independent

00:00:32 ◼   ► developers try and make the App Store

00:00:33 ◼   ► more more beneficial for us you know I

00:00:36 ◼   ► think we argued well that it we that

00:00:39 ◼   ► Apple really should change it to benefit

00:00:42 ◼   ► not only the developers but themselves

00:00:44 ◼   ► and customers as well that I don't think

00:00:47 ◼   ► the app store is as good as it can be I

00:00:49 ◼   ► don't think we've learned nothing from

00:00:51 ◼   ► it's eight years of existence that could

00:00:53 ◼   ► inform you know directions it should try

00:00:55 ◼   ► to take or changes that it should try to

00:00:57 ◼   ► make and I and I don't think that the

00:00:59 ◼   ► apps are as good as they can be for the

00:01:01 ◼   ► customers that that result from the

00:01:03 ◼   ► system that we have now you know I'd

00:01:04 ◼   ► like I recalled when I was getting on a

00:01:07 ◼   ► plane how I tried to download like a

00:01:09 ◼   ► bunch of good games and they were

00:01:10 ◼   ► actually pretty hard to find and there's

00:01:12 ◼   ► so much on there that's just kind of

00:01:14 ◼   ► crappy and and simple and simplistic and

00:01:17 ◼   ► and even like outright hostile to users

00:01:20 ◼   ► which is like you know shoving hands all

00:01:21 ◼   ► over the place and tricking them into

00:01:22 ◼   ► buying coins and everything and III

00:01:25 ◼   ► think that there's there's clear

00:01:27 ◼   ► evidence that the App Store not only can

00:01:31 ◼   ► be made better but should be made better

00:01:34 ◼   ► but the actual specifics of doing that I

00:01:36 ◼   ► think are really tricky but I think we

00:01:39 ◼   ► yeah you know we can think about it and

00:01:40 ◼   ► have some ideas like we've the nice

00:01:41 ◼   ► thing on the plus side is that we've

00:01:42 ◼   ► been following the App Store for I mean

00:01:45 ◼   ► I think I've been some making a you know

00:01:47 ◼   ► my first app was submitted almost eight

00:01:50 ◼   ► years ago now like or whatever you know

00:01:52 ◼   ► I was there almost at the beginning and

00:01:53 ◼   ► so yep me too I look at it and it's like

00:01:55 ◼   ► I think I have some ideas I think one of

00:01:58 ◼   ► the most obvious is to look at the

00:02:00 ◼   ► editorial side you know because right

00:02:02 ◼   ► now the you know there's always the

00:02:04 ◼   ► question that people raise of

00:02:05 ◼   ► discoverability and when people complain

00:02:07 ◼   ► about discoverability what they're

00:02:09 ◼   ► usually really complaining about is they

00:02:11 ◼   ► think their app deserves more

00:02:13 ◼   ► visibility trying to look at this from a

00:02:15 ◼   ► neutral perspective not just saying that

00:02:16 ◼   ► I think my app deserves more visibility

00:02:18 ◼   ► I think the main problem the App Store

00:02:22 ◼   ► has with discoverability is that they

00:02:26 ◼   ► have this massive number of apps there's

00:02:28 ◼   ► just this unfathomable number of apps

00:02:31 ◼   ► that they have to you know kind of kind

00:02:33 ◼   ► of sort through and surface somehow and

00:02:35 ◼   ► then they only have really a pretty

00:02:37 ◼   ► small number of places that you can

00:02:40 ◼   ► browse those apps that there's the the

00:02:42 ◼   ► total surface area of discoverability

00:02:45 ◼   ► beside just search which is a separate

00:02:48 ◼   ► problem is it's kind of low you

00:02:50 ◼   ► basically only have top charts and you

00:02:53 ◼   ► and you have top charts in different

00:02:55 ◼   ► categories so that helps a little bit so

00:02:57 ◼   ► but you have top charts and then you

00:02:59 ◼   ► have the editorial picks and even though

00:03:02 ◼   ► the editorial staff is from what it

00:03:05 ◼   ► seems massive because they have

00:03:07 ◼   ► different editorial stats in different

00:03:09 ◼   ► countries too so there's like the the

00:03:11 ◼   ► amount of staffing devoted to picking

00:03:14 ◼   ► those like you know 20 or whatever

00:03:15 ◼   ► featured apps on the front page every

00:03:17 ◼   ► week plus all the little subcategories

00:03:19 ◼   ► of the collections plus doing that or

00:03:21 ◼   ► some subset of that in a whole bunch of

00:03:23 ◼   ► different countries and regions around

00:03:24 ◼   ► the world that is not a small endeavor

00:03:26 ◼   ► but the the total result of that is that

00:03:30 ◼   ► when when a customer goes to the App

00:03:32 ◼   ► Store and looks through the editorial

00:03:34 ◼   ► picks there you know you can you can be

00:03:37 ◼   ► through the entire editorial list in

00:03:39 ◼   ► like a minute and a half it's not like

00:03:41 ◼   ► you know there's not it it takes so much

00:03:45 ◼   ► human effort on Apple side to produce a

00:03:48 ◼   ► relatively small number of

00:03:49 ◼   ► recommendations every week and every

00:03:51 ◼   ► week is not that frequent so then you

00:03:54 ◼   ► have the top charts which is just like

00:03:56 ◼   ► it just has the problem of basically the

00:03:58 ◼   ► rich get richer where it's it's very

00:04:00 ◼   ► hard to break into the top charts it

00:04:02 ◼   ► they tend to be self-reinforcing because

00:04:04 ◼   ► then people who browse the top charts

00:04:06 ◼   ► buy from the top charts and keep them

00:04:07 ◼   ► going up even further so that system

00:04:11 ◼   ► also only helps a very small number of

00:04:13 ◼   ► apps and then you have search where

00:04:16 ◼   ► search I think is really the one of the

00:04:19 ◼   ► only places where most apps can be found

00:04:22 ◼   ► but the search isn't that good in the

00:04:24 ◼   ► App Store and and it has gotten less

00:04:26 ◼   ► terrible over time

00:04:27 ◼   ► I still wouldn't call it great or even

00:04:30 ◼   ► necessarily good but it is at least you

00:04:34 ◼   ► know less bad but good searches are

00:04:37 ◼   ► really hard and you know as we see from

00:04:39 ◼   ► web search which has similar challenges

00:04:41 ◼   ► but Apple has you know even less data in

00:04:45 ◼   ► some ways than what you have on web

00:04:46 ◼   ► search to go off of although they have a

00:04:48 ◼   ► lot more data in other ways that I'm not

00:04:50 ◼   ► sure they're using but it seems like the

00:04:53 ◼   ► the overall discoverability of an app in

00:04:56 ◼   ► the App Store is pretty miserable for

00:04:58 ◼   ► almost every app just because the the

00:05:01 ◼   ► number of ways people have to to see

00:05:04 ◼   ► your app are so much smaller than the

00:05:07 ◼   ► number of apps in the store and I don't

00:05:09 ◼   ► know is it deep do you know like what

00:05:10 ◼   ► what do you think would be a decent way

00:05:12 ◼   ► to address that problem so I think so

00:05:14 ◼   ► the most the most straightforward that

00:05:16 ◼   ► thing that I think they could do is the

00:05:19 ◼   ► sort like on is like the technological

00:05:21 ◼   ► so that word there's like more of a

00:05:22 ◼   ► technological solution it's like things

00:05:23 ◼   ► like search I always makes me think of

00:05:26 ◼   ► when I go to amazon.com right and I

00:05:29 ◼   ► think Amazon sells like several hundred

00:05:31 ◼   ► million products but I find that I'm

00:05:35 ◼   ► pretty able pretty able to quickly go

00:05:38 ◼   ► through and find like good solid choices

00:05:41 ◼   ► because their search is more than just a

00:05:44 ◼   ► text box that I put some words into like

00:05:47 ◼   ► I put that anyway I put some words in a

00:05:49 ◼   ► text box and then I go through mean I

00:05:51 ◼   ► can go through and I can sort in a

00:05:52 ◼   ► variety of different ways I can

00:05:53 ◼   ► subdivide or there's further categories

00:05:56 ◼   ► beyond just the highest level category

00:05:59 ◼   ► and I could imagine an interface in the

00:06:01 ◼   ► app store that would let you have more

00:06:04 ◼   ► fine-grained control over what I'm

00:06:07 ◼   ► searching for that you know you have the

00:06:09 ◼   ► ability to say like show me even it's

00:06:11 ◼   ► like base obvious stuff like show me

00:06:14 ◼   ► free or paid apps show me apps that are

00:06:18 ◼   ► universal or iPhone only show me apps

00:06:20 ◼   ► that have reviews above a certain amount

00:06:24 ◼   ► or are have updated or updated

00:06:26 ◼   ► frequently or whatever like there are

00:06:28 ◼   ► various criteria beyond just a text box

00:06:31 ◼   ► that you could do to increase the

00:06:34 ◼   ► ability to surface apps that are more

00:06:36 ◼   ► specific to someone's

00:06:39 ◼   ► user sort of needs because I think the

00:06:41 ◼   ► search as it is now for example has the

00:06:43 ◼   ► same kind of rich get richer problem

00:06:45 ◼   ► that sometimes I benefit from and some

00:06:47 ◼   ► my apps and sometimes I'm I'm hurt by in

00:06:50 ◼   ► other apps where if you're the top one

00:06:52 ◼   ► or two search results that's great

00:06:54 ◼   ► that's sort of a really powerful

00:06:55 ◼   ► marketing tool but if you're not like

00:06:58 ◼   ► you're just you're just invisible as far

00:07:01 ◼   ► as the as far as yet the typical user is

00:07:03 ◼   ► concerned and that may or may not be

00:07:06 ◼   ► good like if you're somebody who's

00:07:08 ◼   ► looking for something ever very

00:07:09 ◼   ► particular kind you just have to do a

00:07:11 ◼   ► lot of sitting there go you know sort of

00:07:13 ◼   ► paging through the app store doing

00:07:14 ◼   ► things that it should be able to do

00:07:16 ◼   ► programmatically for you that's like

00:07:19 ◼   ► that side of it seems like that's a

00:07:20 ◼   ► straight more straightforward like

00:07:22 ◼   ► that's a technological fix and then yeah

00:07:24 ◼   ► like I think on the editorial side I

00:07:26 ◼   ► think it can like putting more and more

00:07:28 ◼   ► resources into that seems like a

00:07:30 ◼   ► conserve only makes it better that if

00:07:32 ◼   ► you turn over the featured area more

00:07:36 ◼   ► regularly and also one thing I've always

00:07:38 ◼   ► thought they should do is taking the

00:07:42 ◼   ► work that they put an editorial to like

00:07:44 ◼   ► whenever an app is featured indicating

00:07:46 ◼   ► that the app was featured somewhere on

00:07:49 ◼   ► that apps page for example like right

00:07:51 ◼   ► now I think unless you are an editors

00:07:52 ◼   ► pick

00:07:53 ◼   ► yeah editor's choice gets you that I

00:07:54 ◼   ► think right but I don't think anything

00:07:56 ◼   ► else does that seems like one of those

00:07:58 ◼   ► things if it's almost like if Apple has

00:08:00 ◼   ► taken the time and effort to look at an

00:08:01 ◼   ► app and say you know what this is like

00:08:03 ◼   ► on the approved list like they're saying

00:08:05 ◼   ► that when they put it into the into the

00:08:06 ◼   ► featured tab like someone at Apple has

00:08:08 ◼   ► sat down and looked at it like once your

00:08:10 ◼   ► feature is over obviously I can put that

00:08:12 ◼   ► in my description and say like you know

00:08:13 ◼   ► featured by Apple in the stay on track

00:08:15 ◼   ► fitness category in such and such but

00:08:17 ◼   ► it's like wouldn't it be great if

00:08:19 ◼   ► there's a little like sort of like a

00:08:20 ◼   ► little thumbs up icon next to the apps

00:08:22 ◼   ► that Apple has said are you know are

00:08:24 ◼   ► really good and as a customer were like

00:08:27 ◼   ► being able like I was saying in search

00:08:28 ◼   ► of like being able to say like has been

00:08:30 ◼   ► featured I think would be an interesting

00:08:32 ◼   ► kind of a way to improve discoverability

00:08:35 ◼   ► of these apps that you know they're

00:08:37 ◼   ► doing this work anyway like they're

00:08:39 ◼   ► spending that time to come up with a

00:08:41 ◼   ► weekly featured but then once they the

00:08:43 ◼   ► app has been featured like that

00:08:44 ◼   ► information just sort of disappears

00:08:46 ◼   ► thinking too about like about just the

00:08:48 ◼   ► the app page in general like we we also

00:08:51 ◼   ► have have a

00:08:52 ◼   ► a fairly big issue of just horrible

00:08:55 ◼   ► abuses of at metadata and there are some

00:08:57 ◼   ► rules around what you are what you are

00:08:59 ◼   ► and aren't allowed to put in the

00:09:00 ◼   ► description and your keywords and your

00:09:02 ◼   ► screenshots but it seems like those

00:09:04 ◼   ► rules are fairly loosely enforced a lot

00:09:07 ◼   ► of the time and so you have things like

00:09:10 ◼   ► spamming up the description of your app

00:09:12 ◼   ► with like tons and tons of like

00:09:14 ◼   ► testimonials and stuff on right on top

00:09:16 ◼   ► and and and you have things like

00:09:18 ◼   ► spamming keywords of other app names of

00:09:21 ◼   ► your competitors apps so that you turn

00:09:23 ◼   ► up for their searches which is it has

00:09:26 ◼   ► been I think against the rule since the

00:09:27 ◼   ► very beginning but is almost completely

00:09:29 ◼   ► unenforced partly our necessity of just

00:09:31 ◼   ► like a scale issue there but it's still

00:09:33 ◼   ► very you know mostly unenforced you have

00:09:35 ◼   ► things like whether you're supposed to

00:09:36 ◼   ► put text and overlays on your

00:09:39 ◼   ► screenshots or not the good correct

00:09:42 ◼   ► thing to do is not to do that but so

00:09:44 ◼   ► many people do it that you are at a

00:09:46 ◼   ► disadvantage if you don't I feel like

00:09:48 ◼   ► maybe just like some basic rule

00:09:51 ◼   ► tightening of what you can and can't put

00:09:53 ◼   ► in your app metadata and on that app

00:09:55 ◼   ► page I think would improve the

00:09:57 ◼   ► real-world browse ability a lot and

00:10:00 ◼   ► would improve search because then like

00:10:01 ◼   ► if you if you more strictly enforce the

00:10:03 ◼   ► keyword issues and everything you won't

00:10:05 ◼   ► have as as poor of search results for

00:10:07 ◼   ► things I don't know I mean do you think

00:10:10 ◼   ► there's meaningful change to be had

00:10:11 ◼   ► there on the app pages

00:10:13 ◼   ► I think certainly there should be a ways

00:10:15 ◼   ► to make that better and I think the

00:10:18 ◼   ► consistency is I think that a big thing

00:10:20 ◼   ► that I know I've always been frustrated

00:10:22 ◼   ► with and it's like I look at say for

00:10:23 ◼   ► example the watch apps you know making

00:10:26 ◼   ► watch apps now and right now I believe

00:10:28 ◼   ► you you know your app your watch screen

00:10:30 ◼   ► shot can only show you the screen shot

00:10:33 ◼   ► like right of the app and it's a rule

00:10:35 ◼   ► with so far they seem to be enforcing

00:10:37 ◼   ► strongly and that used to be the case

00:10:38 ◼   ► back in the case of with you know at the

00:10:40 ◼   ► end with the iPhone and then just over

00:10:42 ◼   ► time it stopped being the case and

00:10:46 ◼   ► things like that like that consistency I

00:10:47 ◼   ► think would be helpful like to be

00:10:49 ◼   ► anything it's they did the same thing

00:10:50 ◼   ► with at previews which I believe were

00:10:54 ◼   ► originally only allowed to show in app

00:10:57 ◼   ► screens but I've certainly seen a

00:10:59 ◼   ► previews now that show other things

00:11:01 ◼   ► really that wasn't even like a year and

00:11:04 ◼   ► it's not that I don't see

00:11:05 ◼   ► much but it has the same type of a

00:11:07 ◼   ► problem it's like it's the scale that a

00:11:09 ◼   ► purview is dealing with that do they

00:11:12 ◼   ► really are they really able to every

00:11:14 ◼   ► time an app goes through review evaluate

00:11:16 ◼   ► every you know every single screen shot

00:11:19 ◼   ► in every single country and the app

00:11:21 ◼   ► preview is associated with that for

00:11:23 ◼   ► potentially many sizes like I understand

00:11:27 ◼   ► it's like that's just a really tough

00:11:28 ◼   ► problem but enforcing that I think would

00:11:31 ◼   ► be certainly helpful and I think there's

00:11:33 ◼   ► certainly I like what they did for

00:11:35 ◼   ► example with a previews I think that's a

00:11:38 ◼   ► great way to improve like it's probably

00:11:42 ◼   ► the biggest improvement for a lot of

00:11:43 ◼   ► apps that the in the app store page from

00:11:45 ◼   ► you know eight years ago is being able

00:11:47 ◼   ► to kind of show people what your app

00:11:49 ◼   ► will be like when you actually get it

00:11:50 ◼   ► because we don't have a trial or

00:11:52 ◼   ► something like that for a lot of apps

00:11:53 ◼   ► like this a screenshot a static

00:11:55 ◼   ► screenshot doesn't really show you what

00:11:58 ◼   ► the app is or what it's like you that

00:12:00 ◼   ► you if it's something that you kind of

00:12:01 ◼   ► have to experience or the motion and the

00:12:03 ◼   ► animation or whatever it is of the app

00:12:05 ◼   ► is the important part having a way to

00:12:07 ◼   ► show that is great but I and I think

00:12:10 ◼   ► there's those the things that I think

00:12:12 ◼   ► about on the app page is trying to more

00:12:14 ◼   ► straightforwardly indicate to the

00:12:15 ◼   ► customer like the the the overall

00:12:18 ◼   ► quality of the app and some of those

00:12:20 ◼   ► things that I could even I think about

00:12:21 ◼   ► like on the app store page is the way

00:12:22 ◼   ► reviews reset every time you submit a

00:12:25 ◼   ► new update a blurry reviews and so

00:12:28 ◼   ► interviews is a whole thing but like

00:12:30 ◼   ► that's one of the things that I look at

00:12:31 ◼   ► and I'm like when I launch a new app or

00:12:33 ◼   ► when we've been worst is when I launch a

00:12:35 ◼   ► new update like I am I try and get a

00:12:38 ◼   ► bunch of attention you know I do a big -

00:12:40 ◼   ► oh like and I try and get a lot of

00:12:42 ◼   ► people come into the App Store to

00:12:43 ◼   ► download my app and in the app suddenly

00:12:46 ◼   ► has no stars next to it it has never

00:12:48 ◼   ► abused yeah when you're studying all

00:12:49 ◼   ► that traffic to it and it's like why is

00:12:51 ◼   ► this like I understand why they did that

00:12:53 ◼   ► and it wasn't me and we we've I remember

00:12:56 ◼   ► when they implemented that policy it was

00:12:57 ◼   ► because they people would run into

00:12:59 ◼   ► issues we could have like a bad update

00:13:00 ◼   ► that would you know crash for everybody

00:13:02 ◼   ► you get you know hundreds of one-star

00:13:04 ◼   ► reviews you'd fix it and then all those

00:13:07 ◼   ► one-star reviews would still be there

00:13:09 ◼   ► like that's problematic in one way but

00:13:11 ◼   ► it's like you approach this like the

00:13:13 ◼   ► thing they always make sense to me is

00:13:14 ◼   ► like you should show if you don't have

00:13:15 ◼   ► enough reviews for the current version

00:13:17 ◼   ► then show

00:13:19 ◼   ► like the weighted average for the last

00:13:21 ◼   ► 30 days or always show the weighted

00:13:24 ◼   ► average for the last 30 days or 90 days

00:13:25 ◼   ► or whatever like anything like that

00:13:28 ◼   ► where there is data if there is

00:13:30 ◼   ► information that we can show customers

00:13:32 ◼   ► like we can show if you've been featured

00:13:33 ◼   ► if we can show the kinds of reviews that

00:13:36 ◼   ► you tend to get we mean even like

00:13:38 ◼   ► they're there collecting all this data

00:13:40 ◼   ► with the new analytic stuff and iTunes

00:13:42 ◼   ► Connect like all the retention and

00:13:44 ◼   ► engagement data like they have a lot of

00:13:46 ◼   ► information about whether this app is

00:13:48 ◼   ► good it's like it's for surfacing

00:13:51 ◼   ► somehow that kind of information to the

00:13:53 ◼   ► customer to say people who download this

00:13:55 ◼   ► app really like this app like I don't

00:13:58 ◼   ► know exactly know how you show that but

00:14:00 ◼   ► if you have the data somehow indicating

00:14:03 ◼   ► that to the customer seems like a good

00:14:05 ◼   ► good use of it rather than it just kind

00:14:07 ◼   ► of disappearing into the ether the whole

00:14:09 ◼   ► star rating system I think really needs

00:14:11 ◼   ► a lot of help the the idea of first of

00:14:15 ◼   ► all you know star ratings are very

00:14:16 ◼   ► prominent in the app and many in the app

00:14:19 ◼   ► store and many things I think depend on

00:14:21 ◼   ► them like you know the I know search

00:14:22 ◼   ► ranking was but has been rumored to be

00:14:24 ◼   ► shifting with star rating obviously you

00:14:27 ◼   ► know apples are more likely to feature

00:14:28 ◼   ► something that has good ratings from

00:14:30 ◼   ► past versions and also just I think

00:14:32 ◼   ► buyers are you know or

00:14:33 ◼   ► getters are much more likely to download

00:14:38 ◼   ► an app that has good ratings under it

00:14:40 ◼   ► when they go to look at this page and

00:14:41 ◼   ► then and you know if you're looking for

00:14:43 ◼   ► an app if you reconnect it has that has

00:14:45 ◼   ► a few one star ratings and and the

00:14:47 ◼   ► reasons that the people site seemed

00:14:49 ◼   ► valid then that's a big turn-off and you

00:14:52 ◼   ► probably are going to reconsider buying

00:14:54 ◼   ► or getting that app so they do matter a

00:14:57 ◼   ► lot and the way they're implemented is

00:14:59 ◼   ► so mediocre I feel like this is a this

00:15:01 ◼   ► is an obvious area for substantial

00:15:04 ◼   ► specific improvements so obviously one

00:15:06 ◼   ► of the big ones is just quality control

00:15:08 ◼   ► like you see a lot of a lot of reviews

00:15:10 ◼   ► out there that really could have used

00:15:12 ◼   ► moderation like bye-bye app store staff

00:15:14 ◼   ► like I honestly I think they they might

00:15:17 ◼   ► want to consider a review before publish

00:15:19 ◼   ► model I know that's a big scale but

00:15:21 ◼   ► they're a big company this is a big

00:15:23 ◼   ► store you know you got it invest

00:15:24 ◼   ► resources sometimes also just you know

00:15:26 ◼   ► reconsidering the five-star system at

00:15:28 ◼   ► all

00:15:28 ◼   ► it's basically a one-star and five-star

00:15:31 ◼   ► system so why not consider it

00:15:33 ◼   ► system that is more just based on do I

00:15:35 ◼   ► feel good about this or do I feel bad

00:15:36 ◼   ► about this app and and rather you know

00:15:39 ◼   ► rather than have this trying to make

00:15:40 ◼   ► people quantify like well how good or

00:15:42 ◼   ► how bad do I feel because I think we see

00:15:44 ◼   ► over and over again those systems don't

00:15:45 ◼   ► work very well and they don't really

00:15:48 ◼   ► accurately represent what people are

00:15:49 ◼   ► thinking with this app and then the

00:15:51 ◼   ► obviou the other obvious problem of

00:15:52 ◼   ► having there be no way for developers to

00:15:55 ◼   ► respond to these things publicly or

00:15:56 ◼   ► privately and so you know I think

00:15:58 ◼   ► publicly would be the only way you

00:15:59 ◼   ► really need to I don't think you

00:16:00 ◼   ► necessarily need to give developers

00:16:02 ◼   ► access to privately contact reviewer I

00:16:04 ◼   ► think that could be an area for abuse

00:16:05 ◼   ► but publicly I feel like we should have

00:16:08 ◼   ► the ability to publicly respond to to a

00:16:10 ◼   ► bad review you know and and because a

00:16:12 ◼   ► lot of times the bad review is not valid

00:16:15 ◼   ► or is unfair or is inflammatory or you

00:16:18 ◼   ► know so it's some other problem that

00:16:19 ◼   ► doesn't qualify it for removal but

00:16:22 ◼   ► that's by Apple necessarily but that is

00:16:24 ◼   ► not really a fair representation so it'd

00:16:27 ◼   ► be nice as a developer to be able to

00:16:28 ◼   ► respond to those so that when people

00:16:30 ◼   ► look at it they can see how you

00:16:31 ◼   ► responded or if you responded and I'm

00:16:34 ◼   ► saying this I know it would be more work

00:16:35 ◼   ► for us like I'm giving I'm giving us

00:16:37 ◼   ► more homework but I think that's really

00:16:39 ◼   ► important homework if they're gonna if

00:16:40 ◼   ► you're gonna keep having the system and

00:16:41 ◼   ► have it be as prominent as it is then I

00:16:43 ◼   ► think it's it's a little bit

00:16:45 ◼   ► misrepresentative

00:16:46 ◼   ► very frequently right now just because

00:16:47 ◼   ► of all the all the inherent flaws with

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00:18:19 ◼   ► like we couldn't wait into thinking

00:18:21 ◼   ► about a better App Store without

00:18:22 ◼   ► discussing would be around

00:18:24 ◼   ► thanks business models mmm around I mean

00:18:28 ◼   ► the things that are perennial e-topics

00:18:30 ◼   ► that come up for this

00:18:31 ◼   ► so obviously that you think about things

00:18:32 ◼   ► like trials or paid updates those types

00:18:36 ◼   ► of questions or even just the way that

00:18:39 ◼   ► in-app purchase kind of has become and

00:18:42 ◼   ► is are things that I think there's

00:18:45 ◼   ► certainly room for improvement like I

00:18:47 ◼   ► remember a couple years ago and I wrote

00:18:48 ◼   ► my big towards a better UPS App Store

00:18:50 ◼   ► thing the thing that I was noticing even

00:18:52 ◼   ► back then is the strange thing around

00:18:56 ◼   ► trials the difference between like

00:18:58 ◼   ► trials and refunds where like the App

00:19:00 ◼   ► Store has this very ambiguous refund

00:19:02 ◼   ► policy like I've gotten refunds for apps

00:19:06 ◼   ► that I get downloaded and was totally

00:19:08 ◼   ► different than what I actually expected

00:19:09 ◼   ► it to be based on you know the

00:19:10 ◼   ► description I saw in the app page see

00:19:12 ◼   ► our discussion five minutes ago

00:19:14 ◼   ► and you know I've it says you know live

00:19:17 ◼   ► for a refund and I got it like okay

00:19:19 ◼   ► that's great but if you go into the App

00:19:20 ◼   ► Store like the actual like terms and

00:19:23 ◼   ► conditions like that massive thing you

00:19:24 ◼   ► sign every time you update anything like

00:19:28 ◼   ► deep in there like it says that there

00:19:29 ◼   ► aren't any refunds it says best I can

00:19:31 ◼   ► tell and like having ambigú and big you

00:19:33 ◼   ► around that in some ways is problematic

00:19:36 ◼   ► like if there are refunds for people who

00:19:38 ◼   ► don't like apps they download then

00:19:39 ◼   ► basically you have trials but if you

00:19:42 ◼   ► don't make that public or don't make it

00:19:44 ◼   ► obvious and easy to do then it's not

00:19:47 ◼   ► really a trial and so I think about

00:19:49 ◼   ► things like that like if there are if

00:19:50 ◼   ► they'd really don't want trials and

00:19:52 ◼   ► don't have any refunds but I think they

00:19:53 ◼   ► do and so why don't you make that

00:19:55 ◼   ► process more straightforward and obvious

00:19:57 ◼   ► like I love the thought I think and I

00:19:59 ◼   ► know this is what a couple of other apps

00:20:01 ◼   ► do of you download an app and if you

00:20:04 ◼   ► delete it within a certain period of

00:20:06 ◼   ► time you get a refund for it as though

00:20:09 ◼   ► you know it's like you it has this

00:20:10 ◼   ► built-in trial mode and the duration for

00:20:13 ◼   ► that in many ways to me like I don't

00:20:15 ◼   ► really mind too much exactly what that

00:20:17 ◼   ► is like it could probably be fairly

00:20:19 ◼   ► short and I'd be happy

00:20:20 ◼   ► it could be fairly long and I'd be happy

00:20:22 ◼   ► I mean maybe developers can choose that

00:20:24 ◼   ► which might be even better

00:20:26 ◼   ► yeah I mean I think ultimately I think

00:20:27 ◼   ► it has to be optional because there are

00:20:29 ◼   ► so many abuses of those systems for

00:20:31 ◼   ► those do is I think Windows Phone was

00:20:32 ◼   ► the one that was the big one where like

00:20:35 ◼   ► you know you would like you try to like

00:20:37 ◼   ► you basically have a large incentive to

00:20:39 ◼   ► get all the value could out of an app

00:20:41 ◼   ► within a short period of time and then

00:20:42 ◼   ► delete it and claim a refund so for

00:20:44 ◼   ► things like games it was especially

00:20:45 ◼   ► problematic where like you just try to

00:20:47 ◼   ► beat the whole game and like you know 24

00:20:49 ◼   ► hours and then all right delete it I got

00:20:50 ◼   ► every I want a refund like and that it's

00:20:52 ◼   ► so that that kind of system being

00:20:53 ◼   ► applied without choice to everybody is

00:20:56 ◼   ► is obviously not good but it'd be great

00:20:58 ◼   ► to have that as an option that you could

00:21:00 ◼   ► opt into and especially if you could

00:21:02 ◼   ► even set the duration because then yeah

00:21:03 ◼   ► that is free trials if it happens

00:21:05 ◼   ► automatically at least and and so that

00:21:08 ◼   ► is you know I think with looking at

00:21:11 ◼   ► things like trials and upgrades which

00:21:13 ◼   ► we'll get to in a second I think this

00:21:15 ◼   ► this won't solve the problems I

00:21:17 ◼   ► mentioned last week about just there

00:21:19 ◼   ► being way too many apps in the storage

00:21:21 ◼   ► that they're being tons of competition

00:21:22 ◼   ► it won't solve that problem but it will

00:21:25 ◼   ► make it easier for the apps that can get

00:21:28 ◼   ► some kind of attention and towards them

00:21:30 ◼   ► to both get new customers or new users

00:21:33 ◼   ► and then to stay healthy to sustain the

00:21:36 ◼   ► business because I think if you look at

00:21:38 ◼   ► the App Store one of the biggest

00:21:40 ◼   ► problems it has and this is something

00:21:41 ◼   ► Apple should care about because it's

00:21:43 ◼   ► affecting their product lines is there

00:21:45 ◼   ► are so many formerly great apps that

00:21:48 ◼   ► have just fallen into disrepair no

00:21:50 ◼   ► longer being maintained because the

00:21:52 ◼   ► developer just couldn't make sustainable

00:21:54 ◼   ► revenue from them enough to justify

00:21:55 ◼   ► ongoing maintenance and ongoing

00:21:57 ◼   ► expansion so then you have issues like

00:21:59 ◼   ► Apple launches the iPad pro and a ton of

00:22:02 ◼   ► iPad apps are not ever updated for it

00:22:05 ◼   ► and then that might hurt sales of the

00:22:07 ◼   ► I've had Pro you know like so this was

00:22:09 ◼   ► something like Apple should care about

00:22:10 ◼   ► these kinds of things because it is

00:22:12 ◼   ► those are really hurting them

00:22:14 ◼   ► so the question is you know are they

00:22:17 ◼   ► doing everything in their power to to

00:22:20 ◼   ► ensure that developers can that

00:22:23 ◼   ► developers have the tools they need and

00:22:25 ◼   ► the methods that they need to build

00:22:27 ◼   ► sustainable businesses to keep their

00:22:30 ◼   ► apps and the App Store and the platform

00:22:32 ◼   ► healthy enough and I think the answer

00:22:34 ◼   ► for that so far is is obviously know

00:22:36 ◼   ► there's lots Apple could do that they

00:22:38 ◼   ► have that they're not only not doing but

00:22:39 ◼   ► that it seemed that they've never even

00:22:40 ◼   ► tried or don't think they need to try

00:22:42 ◼   ► and of course trials and upgrades I

00:22:44 ◼   ► think are the two big examples of that

00:22:46 ◼   ► and you can kind of simulate trials and

00:22:48 ◼   ► upgrades through various app store hoops

00:22:50 ◼   ► to jump through you can you can kind of

00:22:52 ◼   ► do it with in-app purchase to some

00:22:53 ◼   ► degree but there's a lot of restrictions

00:22:55 ◼   ► around it and a lot of things that don't

00:22:56 ◼   ► work very well if you try to do it that

00:22:58 ◼   ► way and a lot of ways that customers can

00:23:00 ◼   ► get really mad at you can give a whole

00:23:01 ◼   ► bunch of one-star reviews like if you

00:23:03 ◼   ► try to do a paid app upgrade by just

00:23:05 ◼   ► having a second app and you replace the

00:23:06 ◼   ► first app like that's a quick way to get

00:23:08 ◼   ► a whole bunch people to hate you and and

00:23:10 ◼   ► so I feel like if Apple implemented

00:23:13 ◼   ► these things as first-class citizens

00:23:15 ◼   ► these you know actual well-functioning

00:23:17 ◼   ► trials and upgrades they'd be way better

00:23:20 ◼   ► for the customers and for the developers

00:23:22 ◼   ► and so we'd have more of them so we

00:23:25 ◼   ► could have better apps because we'd have

00:23:26 ◼   ► more ways to make sustainable income

00:23:27 ◼   ► yeah and I think the reality is the

00:23:30 ◼   ► things like just like we were saying

00:23:32 ◼   ► around like we just want to see change

00:23:35 ◼   ► here like I can't imagine that the

00:23:37 ◼   ► business model that was sort of that the

00:23:39 ◼   ► app store was conceived of you know all

00:23:41 ◼   ► those years ago and still think makes

00:23:44 ◼   ► the most sense now and so yeah I'd love

00:23:46 ◼   ► to see even like I could see there's

00:23:49 ◼   ► anything any system they have I could

00:23:51 ◼   ► imagine there there being a reluctance

00:23:53 ◼   ► to do it because of like the possibility

00:23:54 ◼   ► for abuse for example but it's like it's

00:23:57 ◼   ► not like the current system with which

00:23:59 ◼   ► is essentially in-app purchase driven is

00:24:02 ◼   ► devoid of abuse or opportunity for

00:24:05 ◼   ► business right and so like yeah it would

00:24:08 ◼   ► be very interesting to be able to do

00:24:09 ◼   ► things like proper paid upgrades or are

00:24:14 ◼   ► having trials that are time limited or

00:24:15 ◼   ► those types of opportunities because I

00:24:18 ◼   ► think the thing that it also speaks to

00:24:19 ◼   ► is there's there are different you know

00:24:23 ◼   ► it seems like there it seems is the for

00:24:25 ◼   ► my experience it seems like there are

00:24:25 ◼   ► different customers in the App Store

00:24:28 ◼   ► there are people who are much more like

00:24:30 ◼   ► the kind of like me I never download a

00:24:32 ◼   ► paid app I've never paid for an app in

00:24:34 ◼   ► my life I only ever download free apps

00:24:35 ◼   ► like there are some people that I know

00:24:37 ◼   ► and I have met who that's that that's

00:24:39 ◼   ► their mindset and like that's totally

00:24:42 ◼   ► cool like I'm having a problem if that's

00:24:43 ◼   ► the way they see the App Store as part

00:24:45 ◼   ► of you know as something that they just

00:24:47 ◼   ► want to be there sort of as a free

00:24:49 ◼   ► add-on to their phone great but I think

00:24:51 ◼   ► there also may be many people many who

00:24:53 ◼   ► I've met who view the who are delighted

00:24:56 ◼   ► to pay for apps who are in who would

00:24:59 ◼   ► prefer if they are presented with a free

00:25:01 ◼   ► or a paid option for something that

00:25:03 ◼   ► seems somewhat equivalent they'll take

00:25:04 ◼   ► the paid one both because they like that

00:25:07 ◼   ► in sort of the concept of supporting the

00:25:10 ◼   ► person who makes it more directly maybe

00:25:12 ◼   ► they feel like it'll be better supported

00:25:13 ◼   ► down the road like they'd like to feel

00:25:15 ◼   ► like they paid for something they don't

00:25:16 ◼   ► like ads whatever it is like they have

00:25:18 ◼   ► reasons for doing that and creating

00:25:20 ◼   ► tools for developers to you know

00:25:24 ◼   ► capitalize on those people and it's like

00:25:27 ◼   ► in a good way not gonna like

00:25:29 ◼   ► capitalizing on sounds like kind of

00:25:30 ◼   ► skeevy but like having if your customers

00:25:34 ◼   ► are looking or and willing to you know

00:25:36 ◼   ► you pay for a big upgrade to the

00:25:38 ◼   ► software that they've been using for a

00:25:40 ◼   ► year having a mechanism to do that that

00:25:42 ◼   ► isn't going to annoy them like seems

00:25:44 ◼   ► like a good thing and that isn't going

00:25:46 ◼   ► to hurt the people who like free apps

00:25:48 ◼   ► and only want free apps if paid apps can

00:25:51 ◼   ► have paid updates or things of that of

00:25:55 ◼   ► that kind because they're just totally

00:25:58 ◼   ► different markets and so giving

00:26:00 ◼   ► developers tool to do that it seems like

00:26:02 ◼   ► a good way to make sure that they're

00:26:04 ◼   ► taking advantage of every opportunity

00:26:05 ◼   ► they have for revenue because revenue is

00:26:07 ◼   ► so hard to get in the first place that

00:26:08 ◼   ► like giving us more options and choices

00:26:11 ◼   ► seems like it will only be a good thing

00:26:13 ◼   ► well and part of the power of the App

00:26:15 ◼   ► Store when it first launched a part of

00:26:16 ◼   ► the power it still has is you know

00:26:18 ◼   ► before the after everything was

00:26:19 ◼   ► web-based and paying for things on the

00:26:21 ◼   ► web

00:26:22 ◼   ► sucked so much that it was just really

00:26:24 ◼   ► hard to ever get someone to pay for

00:26:25 ◼   ► something on the web because they would

00:26:27 ◼   ► have to jump through all these hoops of

00:26:28 ◼   ► entering their payment information and

00:26:29 ◼   ► it was just this clunky process most

00:26:31 ◼   ► people would just say a never mind

00:26:32 ◼   ► they'd abandon it

00:26:33 ◼   ► whereas in with the App Store they had

00:26:34 ◼   ► the credit card already on file from the

00:26:36 ◼   ► iTunes Store and they could just type in

00:26:38 ◼   ► a password and bam it's bought now it's

00:26:40 ◼   ► even easier with touch ID

00:26:42 ◼   ► so part of the you know we've seen

00:26:43 ◼   ► already that if you make it easy to pay

00:26:46 ◼   ► for it people are more likely and more

00:26:48 ◼   ► willing and happier to pay not everybody

00:26:51 ◼   ► will but more people will so if they you

00:26:54 ◼   ► know right now we have all these methods

00:26:55 ◼   ► of making of trying to use in-app

00:26:56 ◼   ► purchase or swapping you know a new app

00:26:59 ◼   ► for an old one that to try to kind of

00:27:00 ◼   ► simulate trials and and upgrades but

00:27:03 ◼   ► they're all worse than the way it would

00:27:06 ◼   ► probably be if Apple built those in as

00:27:07 ◼   ► first-class citizens so I think we would

00:27:10 ◼   ► actually get more money we would

00:27:12 ◼   ► actually do better and customers and

00:27:14 ◼   ► developers would all be happier if Apple

00:27:17 ◼   ► did these things because we could make

00:27:19 ◼   ► more because it would be easier and it

00:27:21 ◼   ► would work better and ultimately I think

00:27:24 ◼   ► customers like ultimately it seems like

00:27:26 ◼   ► you know you can ultimately hopefully

00:27:28 ◼   ► wind anything Apple related back to

00:27:31 ◼   ► customer sad right like that is

00:27:33 ◼   ► ultimately the thing that seems to drive

00:27:35 ◼   ► a lot of weather the way Apple thinks

00:27:37 ◼   ► and customer satisfaction is something

00:27:40 ◼   ► that you could see a lot like improving

00:27:43 ◼   ► the tools around the business models

00:27:46 ◼   ► that are available to developers

00:27:47 ◼   ► improving that if you create

00:27:51 ◼   ► opportunities in you know for a

00:27:54 ◼   ► developer to make a good stable living

00:27:56 ◼   ► their apps are going to be updated more

00:27:57 ◼   ► regularly and stuff like you were saying

00:28:00 ◼   ► within you know when when new platforms

00:28:01 ◼   ► come out people will adopt them like

00:28:03 ◼   ► that's only good for developers there's

00:28:06 ◼   ► only good for customers and if it

00:28:08 ◼   ► doesn't work like maybe they'd try all

00:28:10 ◼   ► these things and in the end it wasn't

00:28:12 ◼   ► the answer right like like I'm not

00:28:14 ◼   ► completely convinced that adding paid

00:28:16 ◼   ► upgrades would somehow dramatically and

00:28:18 ◼   ► catastrophically improves things for a

00:28:20 ◼   ► developer sustainability I think there's

00:28:23 ◼   ► a good chance that would help things

00:28:25 ◼   ► maybe it won't but trying seems like a

00:28:29 ◼   ► way that like having never tried or just

00:28:31 ◼   ► saying like hmm maybe that would work

00:28:32 ◼   ► maybe it won't and if it's not for sure

00:28:35 ◼   ► let's not do it it's not that's not

00:28:36 ◼   ► helping anybody and so that's where I

00:28:38 ◼   ► hope like you know if Phil Schiller ever

00:28:40 ◼   ► hears this or is sitting down you know

00:28:44 ◼   ► running up to WTC and thinking about

00:28:45 ◼   ► things he wants to change in iOS 10

00:28:47 ◼   ► hopefully these are the things that

00:28:49 ◼   ► they're thinking about thinking about

00:28:50 ◼   ► ways they can make things better for

00:28:52 ◼   ► developers better for customers and you

00:28:55 ◼   ► know

00:28:55 ◼   ► ultimately even in their own

00:28:56 ◼   ► self-interest make their people you know

00:28:58 ◼   ► more have more affinity for their

00:29:00 ◼   ► platform because you know it's like the

00:29:02 ◼   ► the app there's an app for that was that

00:29:04 ◼   ► one of the plan to serve the marketing

00:29:06 ◼   ► campaigns that I think really helped

00:29:07 ◼   ► cement the iPhone you know as what it is

00:29:10 ◼   ► today and it's all about the apps you

00:29:12 ◼   ► know in that in that campaign exactly

00:29:14 ◼   ► well I hope we see some improvements

00:29:17 ◼   ► here I really do I'm hopeful that you

00:29:20 ◼   ► know under new leadership maybe we will

00:29:21 ◼   ► and I really I'm looking forward to

00:29:23 ◼   ► seeing the result of that so that's all

00:29:26 ◼   ► the time we have for this week

00:29:27 ◼   ► thank you very much for listening and

00:29:28 ◼   ► we'll talk to you next week bye