Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar was never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so an

00:00:11 ◼   ► exciting thing happened over the last I

00:00:13 ◼   ► guess it's about a week or so at least

00:00:16 ◼   ► since I first noticed this and started

00:00:17 ◼   ► to hear about it so as you would imagine

00:00:20 ◼   ► as someone who has quite a few apps I

00:00:22 ◼   ► submit to the App Store on a

00:00:24 ◼   ► semi-regular basis you know usually I'll

00:00:26 ◼   ► have at least a Napper to in review at

00:00:28 ◼   ► any given time and you notice something

00:00:31 ◼   ► a bit funny the my apps started to get

00:00:35 ◼   ► through review really quickly and in

00:00:38 ◼   ► fact this is now sort of gone from being

00:00:40 ◼   ► this sort of a freak occurrence which

00:00:41 ◼   ► I've had before you know in the past

00:00:43 ◼   ► I've had like a freak app review that

00:00:45 ◼   ► just went through in a day or two or I

00:00:46 ◼   ► think I've even had a couple that went

00:00:47 ◼   ► through in a few hours and you know who

00:00:49 ◼   ► knows what that is but this has happened

00:00:52 ◼   ► now three times in a row where my last

00:00:54 ◼   ► app reviews have taken 27 25 and 17

00:00:57 ◼   ► hours respectively and I've started to

00:01:01 ◼   ► hear more generally from app developers

00:01:03 ◼   ► that this is a thing now that whatever

00:01:06 ◼   ► is causing this to happen is a

00:01:08 ◼   ► consistent thing it isn't just my

00:01:10 ◼   ► account and if you go to app review

00:01:13 ◼   ► times which is this lovely little

00:01:14 ◼   ► community source yeah I don't know site

00:01:17 ◼   ► that Dave or who's the guy who also does

00:01:19 ◼   ► the iOS dev weekly newsletter runs where

00:01:21 ◼   ► you can you know you can submit your app

00:01:23 ◼   ► review times it seems like this is a

00:01:26 ◼   ► thing that the vast majority of apps

00:01:29 ◼   ► that are you know people who have

00:01:30 ◼   ► submitted their app review times

00:01:31 ◼   ► recently are saying that it's taking you

00:01:33 ◼   ► know a day or two you know somewhere

00:01:35 ◼   ► between you know one or two days which

00:01:38 ◼   ► is a massive departure from what we had

00:01:42 ◼   ► before and you know certainly it's fair

00:01:44 ◼   ► to have a side note obvious yes I know

00:01:46 ◼   ► Android has no review time and it's

00:01:48 ◼   ► amazing and it's wonderful but this is

00:01:50 ◼   ► the world in which the iOS App Store

00:01:52 ◼   ► lives and has lived for a very long time

00:01:54 ◼   ► where there as long as I can remember

00:01:57 ◼   ► the after view has taken about a week

00:02:00 ◼   ► sometimes it takes a bit less than a

00:02:02 ◼   ► week typically around big updates you

00:02:05 ◼   ► know so like in September sometimes

00:02:07 ◼   ► things will speed up a little bit

00:02:08 ◼   ► because you know there's new update lots

00:02:11 ◼   ► of updates coming out the Apple wants to

00:02:12 ◼   ► get those read

00:02:13 ◼   ► for the new phones great sometimes you

00:02:16 ◼   ► can get it slower sometimes it can be

00:02:17 ◼   ► you know 10 days 2 weeks but I would say

00:02:20 ◼   ► about a week has been what it's been for

00:02:22 ◼   ► seven or eight years now and how all of

00:02:25 ◼   ► a sudden it seems like you know fingers

00:02:26 ◼   ► crossed

00:02:27 ◼   ► dabble has changed something in their

00:02:30 ◼   ► process in their staffing in their

00:02:32 ◼   ► automation in who knows what but they're

00:02:35 ◼   ► doing something that's meaning that app

00:02:37 ◼   ► review is taking a day and that seemed

00:02:41 ◼   ► like a pretty big deal and something

00:02:42 ◼   ► that we should talk about because I feel

00:02:44 ◼   ► like a lot of the ways in which I

00:02:47 ◼   ► approach development are in many ways

00:02:49 ◼   ► sort of there were they're working

00:02:51 ◼   ► backwards from it's whatever whenever I

00:02:54 ◼   ► submit it's going to be a week until

00:02:55 ◼   ► that shows up in the store and so if you

00:02:58 ◼   ► change that calculus to essentially be a

00:03:00 ◼   ► day then a lot of things about the way

00:03:02 ◼   ► that you know updates that I think are

00:03:04 ◼   ► big enough or good enough to go and

00:03:05 ◼   ► actually submit or things might change

00:03:08 ◼   ► and just in general like it's it's good

00:03:10 ◼   ► for a lot of reasons there's also some

00:03:12 ◼   ► tricky things that I think will also be

00:03:13 ◼   ► worth updating so does that make sense

00:03:17 ◼   ► yeah I mean I I'm as surprised as

00:03:19 ◼   ► anybody because as you said like it has

00:03:22 ◼   ► been about a week you know whether it

00:03:24 ◼   ► was six days or eight days like it's

00:03:26 ◼   ► been about a week for almost the entire

00:03:29 ◼   ► history of the App Store

00:03:30 ◼   ► and we should clear for the iOS App

00:03:32 ◼   ► Store the Mac App Store has gone all

00:03:34 ◼   ► over the map because it seems to have to

00:03:37 ◼   ► have gotten a lower priority most of its

00:03:40 ◼   ► life and and so the Mac App Store times

00:03:43 ◼   ► have often been as high as like 30 days

00:03:45 ◼   ► which was horrible and that's pretty

00:03:47 ◼   ► crippling to to any actual efforts to

00:03:49 ◼   ► get quality software in the market but

00:03:51 ◼   ► on iOS it's been pretty much yeah pretty

00:03:55 ◼   ► much a week forever and you know I don't

00:03:58 ◼   ► think there was I don't think this is a

00:04:00 ◼   ► coincidence I think Apple is pretty

00:04:03 ◼   ► clearly setting internal metrics of

00:04:05 ◼   ► whatever guideline they they consider to

00:04:07 ◼   ► be good enough they hit that guideline

00:04:10 ◼   ► and it's pretty obvious that for most of

00:04:13 ◼   ► the history of the App Store that's been

00:04:14 ◼   ► a week and there's lots of reasons why

00:04:16 ◼   ► Apple might want to not get faster and

00:04:20 ◼   ► one of the biggest ones obviously is the

00:04:22 ◼   ► faster they review apps the more

00:04:24 ◼   ► frequently people will submit updates so

00:04:26 ◼   ► just

00:04:26 ◼   ► it'll increase the total volume of

00:04:28 ◼   ► updates they're going to have to deal

00:04:29 ◼   ► with which will increase their cost

00:04:31 ◼   ► increase the size of that team but that

00:04:33 ◼   ► the team has to be et cetera and you

00:04:36 ◼   ► know as you get more and more people in

00:04:37 ◼   ► this in the app review team you're

00:04:40 ◼   ► probably gonna have more mistakes made

00:04:43 ◼   ► and that increases the risk of angering

00:04:45 ◼   ► developers getting negative press you

00:04:48 ◼   ► know possibly letting letting bad things

00:04:50 ◼   ► through instead of you know being a too

00:04:52 ◼   ► aggressive on the good things so it's

00:04:55 ◼   ► certain there's certainly reasons for

00:04:56 ◼   ► Apple to want to keep the review times

00:04:58 ◼   ► high for all these kind of accessory

00:05:01 ◼   ► benefits they get from it and and I

00:05:03 ◼   ► really it really does seem like for the

00:05:05 ◼   ► last eight years they have just thought

00:05:07 ◼   ► that one week was good enough and that

00:05:09 ◼   ► was a good balance of all these factors

00:05:11 ◼   ► according to them and developers have

00:05:13 ◼   ► kind of gotten used to it and have just

00:05:15 ◼   ► I was resigned to accepting that it

00:05:18 ◼   ► would just always be about a week

00:05:19 ◼   ► because they obviously were targeting

00:05:20 ◼   ► that and so that was just the way it was

00:05:22 ◼   ► it was always going to be forever and

00:05:24 ◼   ► the idea now that that that over the

00:05:28 ◼   ► past few months like if you look at the

00:05:29 ◼   ► graph on on the Trant development thing

00:05:32 ◼   ► I look at the graph like it it hasn't

00:05:36 ◼   ► been like a dramatic drop just yesterday

00:05:38 ◼   ► it's been like a pretty straight

00:05:41 ◼   ► downward slope for the last few months

00:05:43 ◼   ► basically since Phil took over and it's

00:05:47 ◼   ► it's probably related although Phil

00:05:50 ◼   ► already ran that department before so

00:05:53 ◼   ► like Phil already was the head of the

00:05:55 ◼   ► department that contains a preview so he

00:05:58 ◼   ► was already the top of that before so

00:06:00 ◼   ► presumably he could have you know he

00:06:03 ◼   ► probably could have just heard this

00:06:04 ◼   ► before and just and didn't because I he

00:06:06 ◼   ► probably thought he was he was however

00:06:08 ◼   ► the one who made the decision that seven

00:06:10 ◼   ► days was was a good target so there are

00:06:14 ◼   ► changes afoot like this is it there's

00:06:16 ◼   ► because it has not just been like all of

00:06:18 ◼   ► a sudden in like a day it's been like

00:06:21 ◼   ► this because it's been this this kind of

00:06:23 ◼   ► steady progression downwards over the

00:06:24 ◼   ► last few months I think it's more likely

00:06:26 ◼   ► that this is intentional and that this

00:06:28 ◼   ► is possibly the new goal possibly here

00:06:32 ◼   ► to stay and that will just have

00:06:35 ◼   ► tremendous effects on our development

00:06:37 ◼   ► because like like I remember back when I

00:06:38 ◼   ► purview you know back when the apps were

00:06:40 ◼   ► started

00:06:40 ◼   ► you settled pretty quickly into this

00:06:42 ◼   ► one-week delay I I said a number of

00:06:45 ◼   ► times back then like yeah cuz back that

00:06:48 ◼   ► iOS developers had not quite resigned

00:06:49 ◼   ► ourselves this is like the inevitable

00:06:51 ◼   ► forever state and we were like oh I

00:06:53 ◼   ► preview is terrible there should be no a

00:06:55 ◼   ► preview we should have direct access and

00:06:56 ◼   ► and be able to update as much as we want

00:06:58 ◼   ► just like people could always do on the

00:06:59 ◼   ► Mac etc and and at the time I remember

00:07:02 ◼   ► saying like there's a huge difference

00:07:04 ◼   ► between having a short a preview and

00:07:08 ◼   ► having a long a preview and the longer

00:07:10 ◼   ► it takes generally like the more of a

00:07:13 ◼   ► burden it places on developers and the

00:07:15 ◼   ► more of like a slowing effect it has on

00:07:17 ◼   ► on technological progress on development

00:07:20 ◼   ► and on your ability to ship quality

00:07:21 ◼   ► software I remember even saying back

00:07:23 ◼   ► then seven days is you know we can

00:07:27 ◼   ► tolerate this but it would be it would

00:07:29 ◼   ► be totally different if it was 24 hours

00:07:30 ◼   ► and now it appears that after eight

00:07:34 ◼   ► years they are actually changing it so

00:07:37 ◼   ► that it is 24 hours and I never thought

00:07:41 ◼   ► this would happen I am very happy about

00:07:43 ◼   ► it it will change the way we do things

00:07:46 ◼   ► and not all those things will be for the

00:07:48 ◼   ► better but I think most of them will I

00:07:51 ◼   ► don't know I mean what do you what do

00:07:53 ◼   ► you think how will this change I mean

00:07:56 ◼   ► your special case also because you do so

00:07:59 ◼   ► many apps how do you think this will

00:08:01 ◼   ► change the way you work so I was trying

00:08:04 ◼   ► to think through how this changes things

00:08:05 ◼   ► and the biggest like I think that it

00:08:08 ◼   ► makes different has different impacts on

00:08:10 ◼   ► different kinds of updates that I'm

00:08:12 ◼   ► trying to do and it sounds probably

00:08:14 ◼   ► worth one thing I looked up ahead of

00:08:16 ◼   ► time was I was curious what the current

00:08:19 ◼   ► adoption rate for updates is recently

00:08:22 ◼   ► you know since iOS 7 there's been

00:08:24 ◼   ► automatic app updates so you know

00:08:26 ◼   ► customers don't have to go to the App

00:08:27 ◼   ► Store and hit update anymore like and

00:08:29 ◼   ► for most people that just happens

00:08:30 ◼   ► although I believe that's off by default

00:08:32 ◼   ► isn't it

00:08:32 ◼   ► if it is then a lot of people are

00:08:35 ◼   ► turning it on or going to the App Store

00:08:37 ◼   ► a lot because what I saw is that for me

00:08:40 ◼   ► I'm seeing about three days to get 80%

00:08:43 ◼   ► of people updated to the latest version

00:08:47 ◼   ► because that's also an important thing

00:08:49 ◼   ► to keep in mind because like even if the

00:08:50 ◼   ► app update cycle is a day

00:08:54 ◼   ► it's still a while until that update

00:08:56 ◼   ► will be running on everybody all of your

00:08:58 ◼   ► customers apps but it's still a pretty

00:09:00 ◼   ► substantial change if say we're going to

00:09:02 ◼   ► a world where 80% of your customers get

00:09:05 ◼   ► the update four days one day for app

00:09:07 ◼   ► review three days for actually updating

00:09:09 ◼   ► it on their phone you know versus eleven

00:09:13 ◼   ► twelve thirteen days like that's a

00:09:14 ◼   ► pretty substantial change but that's you

00:09:18 ◼   ► know so good to keep in mind that so

00:09:19 ◼   ► within about you know three or four days

00:09:20 ◼   ► I can get people doing things for small

00:09:23 ◼   ► changes like bug fixes you know I see

00:09:26 ◼   ► pan update and I you know I get a crash

00:09:29 ◼   ► report back something like that some

00:09:31 ◼   ► situation where there's this little

00:09:33 ◼   ► change that is obviously wrong with

00:09:36 ◼   ► what's currently out there this changes

00:09:38 ◼   ► the dynamic for me a lot for looking at

00:09:40 ◼   ► it and saying well maybe I'll just do

00:09:41 ◼   ► like a point oh one release 0.02 release

00:09:44 ◼   ► point O three release like doing the

00:09:46 ◼   ► more iterative model in terms of these

00:09:50 ◼   ► little little fixes when I used to look

00:09:53 ◼   ► at those kind of updates and I'd bundle

00:09:55 ◼   ► them together because you know a lot of

00:09:58 ◼   ► those fixes really are short and simple

00:10:00 ◼   ► and kind of verifiably correct you know

00:10:03 ◼   ► you look if you look at you'll find the

00:10:05 ◼   ► line of code where oh then you know what

00:10:06 ◼   ► am I thinking you know I have an off by

00:10:08 ◼   ► one error I have an out of bounds there

00:10:09 ◼   ► like something that is just obvious and

00:10:11 ◼   ► fixable and I want to get that out to my

00:10:14 ◼   ► customers as quick as I could but you

00:10:16 ◼   ► know doing a going through at one-week

00:10:19 ◼   ► process when I can't submit and any any

00:10:22 ◼   ► other changes it usually didn't make

00:10:24 ◼   ► sense and so I tend to bundle these

00:10:26 ◼   ► things up and then you know do a big

00:10:27 ◼   ► sort of a bigger submission and you know

00:10:30 ◼   ► when that one came out maybe I'll do

00:10:31 ◼   ► another one

00:10:32 ◼   ► but you that the cadence of that was

00:10:35 ◼   ► very much you know I'd be doing maybe an

00:10:39 ◼   ► update or two a month but you could

00:10:43 ◼   ► imagine a world where you would do

00:10:44 ◼   ► updates much more regularly I mean in

00:10:46 ◼   ► many ways it's much sort of like you

00:10:48 ◼   ► imagine with web development where you

00:10:50 ◼   ► can do releases on a fairly regular

00:10:52 ◼   ► basis and your as a result you're sort

00:10:55 ◼   ► of your average lifespan of a bug of a

00:10:59 ◼   ► known bug will drop dramatically

00:11:01 ◼   ► you know you discover a bug you fix a

00:11:03 ◼   ► bug you ship that out to your customers

00:11:05 ◼   ► so for small changes it seems like

00:11:07 ◼   ► that's a

00:11:08 ◼   ► new something that I'll have to think

00:11:09 ◼   ► through on bigger releases it sort of

00:11:13 ◼   ► changes things I think the biggest thing

00:11:15 ◼   ► that it changes is if it can become

00:11:16 ◼   ► consistent ly around a day or two then

00:11:19 ◼   ► when I'm doing a big update something

00:11:21 ◼   ► that I'm trying to mark it around

00:11:22 ◼   ► something that I'm trying to get

00:11:24 ◼   ► attention for it'll be great to have

00:11:26 ◼   ► some a better sense of if I put it in

00:11:29 ◼   ► review

00:11:29 ◼   ► it'll be approved or rejected within 24

00:11:32 ◼   ► hours say that was like what the this

00:11:35 ◼   ► becomes and I really hope Apple doesn't

00:11:36 ◼   ► change their mind on this and this is

00:11:38 ◼   ► just some kind of cruel experiment but

00:11:40 ◼   ► if this is actually the new reality then

00:11:43 ◼   ► that changes that a lot because I can

00:11:46 ◼   ► submit my update I can get it approved

00:11:47 ◼   ► and I can coordinate my marketing versus

00:11:50 ◼   ► the thing that I ended up having to kind

00:11:51 ◼   ► of do now where I submit it and I say

00:11:54 ◼   ► like tell you I'm tell people in the

00:11:55 ◼   ► press and talk to people and say hey

00:11:57 ◼   ► sometime in the next 7 to 10 days

00:11:59 ◼   ► I hope it'll be approved and you know

00:12:03 ◼   ► maybe if you can write an article about

00:12:05 ◼   ► it that would be great but like the

00:12:07 ◼   ► worst thing on those updates is if it

00:12:08 ◼   ► gets rejected and if you get a rejection

00:12:11 ◼   ► and then getting the rejection reira

00:12:13 ◼   ► viewed takes a week like suddenly you

00:12:16 ◼   ► can end up the you know of some that you

00:12:17 ◼   ► hoped was going to be one week can

00:12:19 ◼   ► become three weeks or more and so

00:12:22 ◼   ► turning that around to you get rejected

00:12:24 ◼   ► you resubmit you get approved and that's

00:12:26 ◼   ► two days rather than two weeks is just

00:12:29 ◼   ► massive for release planning for big you

00:12:32 ◼   ► know marketing pushes and things like

00:12:33 ◼   ► that and yeah I mean like the rejection

00:12:36 ◼   ► thing I think is one of the biggest

00:12:37 ◼   ► savings here because you know I said

00:12:39 ◼   ► like if you're especially if you're

00:12:41 ◼   ► submitting a brand new app Apple's gonna

00:12:43 ◼   ► nitpick a lot of things you might have

00:12:44 ◼   ► thought of or they're gonna disagree

00:12:46 ◼   ► with you on something that's kind of

00:12:48 ◼   ► near the edge of a rule or something

00:12:49 ◼   ► rejection is a multiplier of this app

00:12:53 ◼   ► review time where like you know if it is

00:12:56 ◼   ► not uncommon for for up for the a 1.0 of

00:12:58 ◼   ► an app to get rejected one to three

00:13:01 ◼   ► times before one finally gets approved

00:13:03 ◼   ► you know with little changes here and

00:13:05 ◼   ► there the more you you go near third

00:13:08 ◼   ► rails like in-app purchase or pay

00:13:12 ◼   ► services like the more likely that is to

00:13:13 ◼   ► happen but either way like you always

00:13:17 ◼   ► had to plan like you know well this

00:13:19 ◼   ► might get this app I'm planning to

00:13:21 ◼   ► launch my

00:13:21 ◼   ► get rejected one to three times before I

00:13:24 ◼   ► can launch it so now your buffer which

00:13:27 ◼   ► used to be like well this is probably

00:13:29 ◼   ► gonna be in the store sometime in the

00:13:30 ◼   ► next month can now shrink down to this

00:13:34 ◼   ► can probably be in the store sometime in

00:13:35 ◼   ► the next week and that that is

00:13:37 ◼   ► substantially better it just it

00:13:40 ◼   ► dramatically decreases the cost of

00:13:43 ◼   ► rejection and and it also decreases how

00:13:47 ◼   ► bad it is if Apple wrongly rejects you

00:13:49 ◼   ► this is true

00:13:51 ◼   ► yeah and I'm delighted to vent it's just

00:13:55 ◼   ► it's I'm honestly still trying to wrap

00:13:56 ◼   ► my head around some of the changes

00:13:58 ◼   ► because I think about this and I

00:14:00 ◼   ► combined it with thinking of recently

00:14:02 ◼   ► about the business models and the things

00:14:05 ◼   ► that are all on both sides in the App

00:14:06 ◼   ► Store where you know things like paid

00:14:10 ◼   ► updates which we don't have would have

00:14:13 ◼   ► would meek would make bundling up the

00:14:15 ◼   ► changes in two large things making make

00:14:19 ◼   ► a lot of sense you know sort of the the

00:14:20 ◼   ► the model of software where your version

00:14:22 ◼   ► number you know it's like you have a 1.0

00:14:25 ◼   ► and then a year later you have a 2.0 and

00:14:27 ◼   ► that kind of a a model which in this I

00:14:29 ◼   ► would say feels fairly outdated at this

00:14:32 ◼   ► point the changes too dramatically if

00:14:36 ◼   ► there's no incentive on the business

00:14:38 ◼   ► side to bundle up your changes and if

00:14:40 ◼   ► releasing updates it becomes really

00:14:42 ◼   ► lightweight and straightforward it's

00:14:44 ◼   ► kind of like this is a situation you end

00:14:46 ◼   ► up with I believe I think this is what

00:14:47 ◼   ► chrome does the browser we're like

00:14:49 ◼   ► there's just a new version all the time

00:14:52 ◼   ► or even a scenario where I think I don't

00:14:56 ◼   ► actually use the Facebook app but I

00:14:57 ◼   ► believe it's just sort of every week

00:14:59 ◼   ► gets an update and the number goes

00:15:01 ◼   ► bigger or something along those lines

00:15:03 ◼   ► I've heard of a lot of software

00:15:05 ◼   ► companies moving to that kind of a model

00:15:07 ◼   ► where you're you just ship on a very

00:15:10 ◼   ► regular basis and the app the product

00:15:13 ◼   ► you're sort of always gets better rather

00:15:15 ◼   ► than there being these discontinuities

00:15:16 ◼   ► in updates you know that rather than

00:15:20 ◼   ► having these big moments where the

00:15:23 ◼   ► customers have to be like whoa what's

00:15:24 ◼   ► going on and you know sometimes you'll

00:15:25 ◼   ► still have those if you're doing a big

00:15:27 ◼   ► UI refresh or something like that but in

00:15:30 ◼   ► general if the app is just sort of

00:15:31 ◼   ► always getting better if it's getting

00:15:33 ◼   ► updated in the background behind the

00:15:35 ◼   ► user

00:15:36 ◼   ► you can kind of get into a very

00:15:37 ◼   ► interesting pattern there that kind of

00:15:39 ◼   ► completely gets away from the concept of

00:15:41 ◼   ► like oh I'm working on my next big

00:15:42 ◼   ► three-o

00:15:43 ◼   ► it's like no I'm just the app is just

00:15:45 ◼   ► always getting better and I don't need

00:15:47 ◼   ► to break them up into small into these

00:15:48 ◼   ► big updates because updates are

00:15:50 ◼   ► lightweight they're like this sort of

00:15:52 ◼   ► this very simple thing that you know

00:15:54 ◼   ► it's even if there was no app review it

00:15:58 ◼   ► taking you'd like the difference between

00:15:59 ◼   ► a day and zero days is a fairly minor

00:16:03 ◼   ► because the majority of the time is

00:16:05 ◼   ► going to be spent in getting people to

00:16:07 ◼   ► actually go and download it from the App

00:16:09 ◼   ► Store's like to get the new software

00:16:10 ◼   ► anyway so as long as that number is on

00:16:12 ◼   ► that very low end it's warped by the

00:16:15 ◼   ► update rate and so it's essentially for

00:16:17 ◼   ► like free to do which hopefully Apple

00:16:20 ◼   ► you know can adapt to because I would

00:16:22 ◼   ► imagine the rate will necessarily go up

00:16:25 ◼   ► but I mean the Android store has had

00:16:28 ◼   ► essentially no app review well they have

00:16:29 ◼   ► a purview but it doesn't take time like

00:16:32 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure in the details of

00:16:34 ◼   ► that but I remember they famously

00:16:35 ◼   ► announced that they had added app review

00:16:38 ◼   ► to the Google Play Store but nobody

00:16:40 ◼   ► noticed yeah I think it takes like a few

00:16:43 ◼   ► hours to a day something like that but

00:16:45 ◼   ► it's it's short and that works and

00:16:48 ◼   ► that's great and if we give that's our

00:16:50 ◼   ► world to now like that's kind of wild

00:16:51 ◼   ► like I would love the amad you know the

00:16:53 ◼   ► the who worst thing and I think you ran

00:16:55 ◼   ► into this recently with an overcast

00:16:56 ◼   ► update where is where you ship an update

00:16:58 ◼   ► that you know like you're all your

00:17:01 ◼   ► testing all these things you somehow you

00:17:03 ◼   ► missed a pretty substantial bug you know

00:17:06 ◼   ► a date of lost bug something that's

00:17:07 ◼   ► crushing your server is something like

00:17:09 ◼   ► some some kind of really heinous bug and

00:17:12 ◼   ► previously for those things we would

00:17:14 ◼   ► have to go and do the like the bet you

00:17:16 ◼   ► know like again our knees and beg Apple

00:17:18 ◼   ► hey please give me an expedited review

00:17:19 ◼   ► an Apple was usually pretty good about

00:17:21 ◼   ► that you know in my in my years I've

00:17:24 ◼   ► requested probably a handful of those

00:17:26 ◼   ► they've always granted them I mean they

00:17:28 ◼   ► the email you get back was almost always

00:17:30 ◼   ► a bit comical because it has this kind

00:17:32 ◼   ► of like well we'll make a special

00:17:33 ◼   ► one-time exception for you and really

00:17:35 ◼   ► shouldn't rely on this you know it's

00:17:37 ◼   ► like poor you know it's like sort of

00:17:38 ◼   ► this kind of very condescending email

00:17:41 ◼   ► you get back but whatever I don't mind

00:17:42 ◼   ► being condescended to if that meant that

00:17:44 ◼   ► my app got really you know good approved

00:17:45 ◼   ► in a few hours and

00:17:46 ◼   ► this kind of terrible bug you know I've

00:17:48 ◼   ► had I've shipped updates where you know

00:17:51 ◼   ► it's like if you launch the if you

00:17:52 ◼   ► launch that particular version it would

00:17:53 ◼   ► like start corrupting your database or

00:17:55 ◼   ► things like these things happen and

00:17:57 ◼   ► they're terrible but I almost wonder if

00:17:59 ◼   ► Apple would still have the expedited

00:18:01 ◼   ► system you know in a world of you know

00:18:04 ◼   ► if it's a one-day review cycle like if

00:18:06 ◼   ► you can be you know a request a one-hour

00:18:09 ◼   ► review like I don't even know if that

00:18:10 ◼   ► would even make sense but it's lovely to

00:18:12 ◼   ► think that at worst it would be a day

00:18:14 ◼   ► before I could get something out I mean

00:18:16 ◼   ► it takes them about a day to respond to

00:18:17 ◼   ► those requests so it's like I think that

00:18:20 ◼   ► actually might be a sign like if they

00:18:22 ◼   ► end up eliminating the extra had to

00:18:24 ◼   ► review system I think that would be a

00:18:25 ◼   ► sign that they intend to keep through a

00:18:26 ◼   ► few times this low because with the

00:18:28 ◼   ► review times being approximately a day

00:18:31 ◼   ► that system doesn't make sense anymore

00:18:33 ◼   ► it's it's there's no gain there because

00:18:35 ◼   ► it takes about a day to get the FFI

00:18:37 ◼   ► reviews so yeah it's I mean that would

00:18:39 ◼   ► man that would be great it this really

00:18:42 ◼   ► would like many of the problems of app

00:18:45 ◼   ► review are proportional to the time it

00:18:47 ◼   ► takes every few to happen and so you

00:18:50 ◼   ► know you don't get rid of all the issues

00:18:52 ◼   ► of that review by having short review

00:18:54 ◼   ► times but you do make a lot of them a

00:18:56 ◼   ► lot smaller of a problem and so I man

00:18:59 ◼   ► this is great

00:19:00 ◼   ► anyway we are sponsored this week by

00:19:02 ◼   ► Braintree go to Braintree payments comm

00:19:05 ◼   ► slash radar why make payment integration

00:19:07 ◼   ► more difficult than it has to be

00:19:09 ◼   ► Braintree powerful full stack payment

00:19:12 ◼   ► platform allows you to accept nearly any

00:19:14 ◼   ► type of payment from any device with

00:19:16 ◼   ► just one integration it's flexible to

00:19:18 ◼   ► your systems needs and supports most

00:19:20 ◼   ► languages where they're using Java Ruby

00:19:22 ◼   ► or Python you'll always have a range of

00:19:24 ◼   ► server-side and client-side SDK is

00:19:27 ◼   ► available this code supports Android iOS

00:19:29 ◼   ► and JavaScript clients and this takes

00:19:32 ◼   ► just ten lines of code to implement

00:19:34 ◼   ► Braintree now by next year maybe even

00:19:36 ◼   ► next week there could be a whole new way

00:19:38 ◼   ► to pay maybe it'll be the next Bitcoin

00:19:40 ◼   ► the next app will pay maybe both

00:19:42 ◼   ► fortunately brain trees full stack

00:19:44 ◼   ► payment platform is easily adaptable to

00:19:46 ◼   ► whatever the future holds so you can

00:19:48 ◼   ► adapt easily to accept everything from

00:19:50 ◼   ► pounds to PayPal to the next big

00:19:52 ◼   ► innovation from any device with just

00:19:54 ◼   ► this one integration and when that next

00:19:56 ◼   ► payment method comes out all you have to

00:19:58 ◼   ► do is update a few lines of code no late

00:20:00 ◼   ► nights

00:20:00 ◼   ► no complicated recoding no stress about

00:20:03 ◼   ► staying ahead of the curve Braintree is

00:20:05 ◼   ► here to help

00:20:05 ◼   ► Braintree makes payments and your job a

00:20:07 ◼   ► whole lot easier learn more at Braintree

00:20:10 ◼   ► payments comm slash radar thank you very

00:20:13 ◼   ► much to Braintree for supporting under

00:20:14 ◼   ► the radar and all of real AFN so I

00:20:17 ◼   ► wanted to also mention the the impact

00:20:20 ◼   ► this has both ways on quality so like

00:20:24 ◼   ► for me I mentioned before like I stress

00:20:27 ◼   ► out like crazy when doing it release and

00:20:29 ◼   ► and part of the reason I stress out is

00:20:31 ◼   ► what you mentioned earlier of like I

00:20:33 ◼   ► know that if I screwed up something

00:20:35 ◼   ► big-time it's gonna take me a week to

00:20:36 ◼   ► get to get a fix out there and that's

00:20:38 ◼   ► just horrible and like worst case

00:20:41 ◼   ► scenario if the app it's something's

00:20:42 ◼   ► really bad like a data loss bug I'm out

00:20:44 ◼   ► to pull the app from the store until I

00:20:46 ◼   ► can get a fix out there and lose like a

00:20:48 ◼   ► week of sales I've never had to do that

00:20:51 ◼   ► but it always been like kind of like the

00:20:52 ◼   ► like the the failsafe in the back of my

00:20:54 ◼   ► mind like well I might someday have to

00:20:55 ◼   ► do that if it's really bad I've had to

00:20:57 ◼   ► do that yeah it's it's bad pull the net

00:21:00 ◼   ► from from the store for a week and it's

00:21:02 ◼   ► just like well that's that yeah I like

00:21:04 ◼   ► it that's a that's a huge dent in your

00:21:06 ◼   ► income and in the app's growth and usage

00:21:08 ◼   ► and sucks for the customers so yeah so

00:21:10 ◼   ► like I've always had in the back of my

00:21:12 ◼   ► mind like man if I screw this up this is

00:21:14 ◼   ► gonna take me a week to fix and if it

00:21:16 ◼   ► only takes me a day to fix that's a

00:21:19 ◼   ► pretty big difference and so this the

00:21:23 ◼   ► faster you can get updates out the more

00:21:26 ◼   ► you know the lower stress it is but also

00:21:29 ◼   ► I think the more likely I might be to

00:21:32 ◼   ► let my standards slip of of like testing

00:21:36 ◼   ► and quality assurance to be like because

00:21:39 ◼   ► before like if you've ever rejected a

00:21:43 ◼   ► binary more than 24 hours after you

00:21:47 ◼   ► submitted it then if you think about in

00:21:49 ◼   ► this new system that would have shipped

00:21:51 ◼   ► to customers and I've done that a few

00:21:54 ◼   ► times I did that look two weeks ago so

00:21:58 ◼   ► you know I feel like this will this this

00:22:02 ◼   ► is a double-edged sword it will increase

00:22:05 ◼   ► the ability for us to to to get fixes

00:22:08 ◼   ► out there and to improve quality and to

00:22:10 ◼   ► be faster but I think it will also

00:22:11 ◼   ► increase the likelihood that we ship bad

00:22:13 ◼   ► bugs

00:22:14 ◼   ► and it's gonna take a certain degree of

00:22:16 ◼   ► self-control of quality assurance of

00:22:20 ◼   ► good rigorous practices to prevent that

00:22:22 ◼   ► one of the weird side effects of this is

00:22:25 ◼   ► that right now getting your app approved

00:22:28 ◼   ► through the App Store takes roughly the

00:22:30 ◼   ► same amount of time or even less then

00:22:32 ◼   ► getting test flight beta approval for

00:22:34 ◼   ► the first version of the baby ship in

00:22:35 ◼   ► test flight so hopefully that's a

00:22:38 ◼   ► temporary hiccup and hopefully that will

00:22:41 ◼   ► change maybe to the point of getting rid

00:22:42 ◼   ► of test flight review entirely because

00:22:44 ◼   ► it doesn't make a lot of sense and

00:22:46 ◼   ► especially in this world because like

00:22:47 ◼   ► we're basically right now I am more

00:22:50 ◼   ► incentivized to just update the app for

00:22:52 ◼   ► everybody than I am to run a beta

00:22:54 ◼   ► because running a beta will take way

00:22:56 ◼   ► longer now then then just getting the

00:22:58 ◼   ► update out there which is very strange

00:23:01 ◼   ► and I think it also I was thinking too

00:23:03 ◼   ► like it and one of the things I remember

00:23:06 ◼   ► I when I was talking about this online

00:23:07 ◼   ► people were the comment I got back was

00:23:09 ◼   ► this like well this is just gonna make

00:23:11 ◼   ► people use the public as their QA

00:23:13 ◼   ► Department which i think is sort of what

00:23:14 ◼   ► you're saying it's like well I may as

00:23:16 ◼   ► well just ship it out into the world and

00:23:18 ◼   ► if people if there are bugs people will

00:23:20 ◼   ► tell me and I'll submit an update and

00:23:22 ◼   ► we'll go back round and round and I mean

00:23:24 ◼   ► I guess that the reality is that may be

00:23:27 ◼   ► true and for some people that may happen

00:23:29 ◼   ► but I think overall like the average

00:23:32 ◼   ► quality will still go up because it's

00:23:35 ◼   ► you know it's like our ability to sort

00:23:37 ◼   ► of ask them like in a lot of ways I

00:23:39 ◼   ► think of software quality you know it's

00:23:42 ◼   ► like you're trying to get to say like

00:23:44 ◼   ► for some arbitrary measure say it's like

00:23:45 ◼   ► crash free users which is I think the

00:23:47 ◼   ► way fabric and crashlytics measure it

00:23:49 ◼   ► it's like I want that line to approach

00:23:52 ◼   ► 100% and the faster I can iterate on it

00:23:56 ◼   ► the faster I'm going to get it there and

00:23:58 ◼   ► so while some like some reality because

00:24:01 ◼   ► I think think of you viewing like public

00:24:03 ◼   ► QA as a bad thing like it can be but the

00:24:06 ◼   ► reality is a lot of bugs can only be

00:24:08 ◼   ► found in the wild you know if beta

00:24:12 ◼   ► testing and internal QA were perfect you

00:24:16 ◼   ► know then we wouldn't need a crash

00:24:17 ◼   ► reporter we I wouldn't mix in my apps I

00:24:20 ◼   ► would have just caught all the bugs

00:24:21 ◼   ► before I shipped it but like that's not

00:24:23 ◼   ► the reality like I had respect and

00:24:25 ◼   ► especially any app that involves user

00:24:27 ◼   ► data in any way

00:24:28 ◼   ► a guy Avena of a recipe book app and

00:24:30 ◼   ► sometimes I find some very strange and

00:24:33 ◼   ► interesting bugs that are caused by

00:24:35 ◼   ► issues that I just wouldn't have I never

00:24:39 ◼   ► even dreamed of or imagined would be

00:24:41 ◼   ► issues but it's like that's just the way

00:24:42 ◼   ► people are using you know using the data

00:24:44 ◼   ► or it's their particular language or

00:24:46 ◼   ► character set has a weird quirk that

00:24:48 ◼   ► causes a strange issue see also our

00:24:50 ◼   ► episode number 16 designing for misuse

00:24:52 ◼   ► yes exactly like some of these things

00:24:55 ◼   ► you're only gonna find and but for me

00:24:57 ◼   ► like maybe there is definitely I have to

00:25:00 ◼   ► keep I think it's in it's like it's a

00:25:01 ◼   ► good cautionary word to keep in the back

00:25:03 ◼   ► of our minds that just because our

00:25:05 ◼   ► review is quick and fixing a potential

00:25:07 ◼   ► bug is more lightweight we still have to

00:25:10 ◼   ► have the discipline of keeping of

00:25:11 ◼   ► keeping ourselves to high standards that

00:25:14 ◼   ► we're not just gonna like oh we'll just

00:25:15 ◼   ► ship it and fix it and you know sort of

00:25:16 ◼   ► fix it in post kind of mindset but if we

00:25:20 ◼   ► embrace the ability of what that means

00:25:22 ◼   ► if we keep our standards high they can

00:25:25 ◼   ► now the overall quality can get to that

00:25:28 ◼   ► much higher and having a much more

00:25:30 ◼   ► higher quality level so much faster you

00:25:33 ◼   ► know sort of in way that I think of in

00:25:35 ◼   ► some ways like iOS updates like iOS you

00:25:38 ◼   ► know big major updates where Apple

00:25:40 ◼   ► doesn't update once a year with you know

00:25:42 ◼   ► a few point releases on the way that's a

00:25:45 ◼   ► much slower process necessarily to

00:25:47 ◼   ► getting towards really high quality

00:25:50 ◼   ► overall because you just it just takes

00:25:53 ◼   ► longer and so there's a much higher

00:25:55 ◼   ► period where things aren't going to be

00:25:57 ◼   ► as good yeah and I think you know and we

00:26:00 ◼   ► can see like it's not like this is going

00:26:02 ◼   ► to be the first platform ever that has

00:26:04 ◼   ► fast app updates available like we can

00:26:06 ◼   ► see from existing platforms the Mac the

00:26:09 ◼   ► web maybe Andrew it I don't know but you

00:26:12 ◼   ► know you can see from other platforms

00:26:13 ◼   ► what happens when developers come update

00:26:15 ◼   ► their software whenever they want and

00:26:17 ◼   ► the answer is some some products become

00:26:20 ◼   ► like crashing unstable and changing

00:26:22 ◼   ► every day but most don't

00:26:23 ◼   ► most just have releases that are

00:26:25 ◼   ► carefully issued when they need to be

00:26:27 ◼   ► and like most of my Mac apps don't

00:26:29 ◼   ► update themselves every day

00:26:30 ◼   ► it's fine like they they wait until they

00:26:32 ◼   ► they have a solid release and then they

00:26:34 ◼   ► update them web apps tend to be the same

00:26:36 ◼   ► way we know we're like you're generally

00:26:38 ◼   ► not noticing changes every single day to

00:26:40 ◼   ► web apps that you use

00:26:41 ◼   ► they're generally not like crashing

00:26:43 ◼   ► constantly because everyone's running

00:26:43 ◼   ► untested code like people just have

00:26:45 ◼   ► disciplined and good practices and they

00:26:48 ◼   ► figure out how to make it work and I

00:26:49 ◼   ► think iOS is gonna be the same way you

00:26:52 ◼   ► know as this time stays down if it stays

00:26:54 ◼   ► down as we hope it does then we're just

00:26:56 ◼   ► gonna see just in the long run better

00:26:59 ◼   ► software and there might be some hiccups

00:27:00 ◼   ► along the way as some developers get a

00:27:03 ◼   ► little bit too careless with it but I

00:27:04 ◼   ► think that will iron itself out fairly

00:27:06 ◼   ► soon and it'll just be great and I'm

00:27:09 ◼   ► just assuming this stays here I could

00:27:12 ◼   ► not be happier that they're making

00:27:14 ◼   ► changes like this because this means

00:27:16 ◼   ► that they care and that they recognize

00:27:20 ◼   ► that the previous system was not as good

00:27:22 ◼   ► as it can be exactly and I like honest

00:27:26 ◼   ► genuine thanks to if anybody who happens

00:27:28 ◼   ► to listen to the show happens to work in

00:27:30 ◼   ► app review or know someone who works in

00:27:32 ◼   ► app review you know highest of fives

00:27:34 ◼   ► like this is awesome this is exactly the

00:27:37 ◼   ► kind of thing that is an encouragement

00:27:40 ◼   ► to me as a developer especially as a

00:27:42 ◼   ► smaller developer that you know there

00:27:45 ◼   ► are changes afoot that things you know

00:27:47 ◼   ► we've been talking about for a while

00:27:48 ◼   ► that the App Store is a trickier and

00:27:50 ◼   ► trickier place to to make a business and

00:27:53 ◼   ► to make a run at and these changes in

00:27:55 ◼   ► some ways are small but they are

00:27:58 ◼   ► impactful in terms of they allow me to

00:28:00 ◼   ► ship better product more easily and

00:28:03 ◼   ► that's awesome and so thank you all so

00:28:06 ◼   ► big big congrats the app review team for

00:28:09 ◼   ► the amazing degree of like secrecy that

00:28:12 ◼   ► they have like i i've through my web

00:28:15 ◼   ► presence and everything else i have met

00:28:18 ◼   ► a lot of apple contacts or heard from a

00:28:21 ◼   ► lot of apple people from every

00:28:23 ◼   ► department you can think of in the

00:28:24 ◼   ► company except a preview I have never

00:28:27 ◼   ► heard from or met or heard about anybody

00:28:31 ◼   ► who either worked in a preview or who

00:28:34 ◼   ► even knew anybody who worked in a

00:28:36 ◼   ► preview that's pretty crazy that's

00:28:38 ◼   ► saying a lot anyway so a good job on

00:28:40 ◼   ► them they're more secret in the car yeah

00:28:42 ◼   ► so congrats i purview thank you for

00:28:44 ◼   ► doing this please keep it up we are

00:28:45 ◼   ► looking forward to this being our new

00:28:47 ◼   ► reality I believe it's all the time we

00:28:49 ◼   ► have for this week

00:28:50 ◼   ► so thank you very much for listening

00:28:51 ◼   ► everybody thank you Phil Schiller you're

00:28:54 ◼   ► amazing and

00:28:55 ◼   ► please keep this and we'll talk to you

00:28:59 ◼   ► guys next week bye