Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today

00:00:11 ◼   ► what we wanted to talk about I'm not

00:00:14 ◼   ► really sure what the right word term for

00:00:15 ◼   ► it is the one that comes into my mind

00:00:16 ◼   ► when I was thinking about this topic is

00:00:18 ◼   ► transferable skills or generally it's

00:00:21 ◼   ► this feeling that I've been having

00:00:22 ◼   ► recently about and I look at the various

00:00:25 ◼   ► parts of making apps that aren't the

00:00:28 ◼   ► actual sitting in Xcode Londa like

00:00:31 ◼   ► writing code part there's a lot of

00:00:34 ◼   ► different skills and techniques and

00:00:36 ◼   ► abilities that go into the actual like

00:00:38 ◼   ► production of software and a lot of them

00:00:41 ◼   ► I was noticing that the place that I

00:00:43 ◼   ► learned that skill it was very distinct

00:00:46 ◼   ► from actual development so as an example

00:00:49 ◼   ► the recently when I launched workouts

00:00:51 ◼   ► plus plus I launched with a walkthrough

00:00:55 ◼   ► video well which is sort of this long

00:00:56 ◼   ► sort of like eight to ten minute you

00:01:00 ◼   ► know screen by screen walkthrough of the

00:01:02 ◼   ► app then I also have made a little like

00:01:04 ◼   ► shorter like 30-second commercial and

00:01:06 ◼   ► put these up on YouTube with the hope of

00:01:08 ◼   ► trying to just kind of it's this you

00:01:10 ◼   ► know if someone's on the fence about the

00:01:12 ◼   ► app especially because it's paid upfront

00:01:13 ◼   ► that maybe they'd watch the video get a

00:01:15 ◼   ► sense of the app and then decide you

00:01:17 ◼   ► know make an informed decision and I

00:01:19 ◼   ► realized that I was able to make these

00:01:21 ◼   ► videos with fairly low effort and time

00:01:26 ◼   ► mostly because in the past I've messed

00:01:30 ◼   ► around with making videos of other kinds

00:01:32 ◼   ► whether they're sort of like for

00:01:33 ◼   ► personal projects and that kind of thing

00:01:36 ◼   ► or even if there was a period of time

00:01:37 ◼   ► when I was doing like code tutorials on

00:01:40 ◼   ► YouTube I tried that there was a couple

00:01:42 ◼   ► few episodes of my old podcast

00:01:43 ◼   ► developing perspective where I did them

00:01:45 ◼   ► kind of like vlogs where I'd like sat

00:01:47 ◼   ► and looked into the camera and recorded

00:01:49 ◼   ► it that way and those project never went

00:01:52 ◼   ► anywhere like they're not part of my

00:01:53 ◼   ► business they're not big and significant

00:01:55 ◼   ► in that way but by sitting down and like

00:01:58 ◼   ► doing these things that are on the side

00:02:00 ◼   ► or sort of these orthogonal separate

00:02:03 ◼   ► projects but I keep finding time and

00:02:06 ◼   ► time again is that I am building these

00:02:08 ◼   ► skills that down the road I find huh

00:02:11 ◼   ► interesting this is actually so

00:02:13 ◼   ► thing that I need for my main job you

00:02:15 ◼   ► know so for making these videos or

00:02:16 ◼   ► making you have previews now like I'm

00:02:18 ◼   ► comfortable in a Final Cut Pro but not

00:02:23 ◼   ► you know which is useful to me now but I

00:02:25 ◼   ► did not just sit down and try and learn

00:02:26 ◼   ► it for the actual job I do and I find

00:02:28 ◼   ► that this sort of pattern of having a

00:02:31 ◼   ► rich set of side projects and little

00:02:34 ◼   ► hobbies and things to try from time to

00:02:36 ◼   ► time keeps coming back to inform my own

00:02:39 ◼   ► work like my primary job again and again

00:02:42 ◼   ► and so it seemed like something that was

00:02:43 ◼   ► worth discussing as a important skill

00:02:47 ◼   ► for kind of developing yourself and I

00:02:48 ◼   ► think especially it's applicable as an

00:02:50 ◼   ► independent developer where I have to do

00:02:53 ◼   ► so much of this myself like I'm the one

00:02:56 ◼   ► who is writing the code as well as the

00:02:58 ◼   ► person who is making the promotional

00:03:00 ◼   ► materials and making the marketing

00:03:02 ◼   ► videos and doing all these different

00:03:04 ◼   ► things that maybe if I was at a big a

00:03:06 ◼   ► big startup there would be a marketing

00:03:08 ◼   ► division that may have like a creative

00:03:11 ◼   ► audio-visual person who really knows

00:03:14 ◼   ► what they're doing and could probably

00:03:15 ◼   ► make a better product than I could but

00:03:17 ◼   ► like that's someone else's job whereas

00:03:18 ◼   ► for me like that's my job yeah and you

00:03:22 ◼   ► know it also as as indie developers like

00:03:24 ◼   ► we we need a lot of stuff to be done

00:03:26 ◼   ► ourselves because we often either don't

00:03:29 ◼   ► have the the contacts on hand to call to

00:03:33 ◼   ► do things like this for us and or we

00:03:36 ◼   ► can't afford to have other people do it

00:03:38 ◼   ► because like when you're an indie any

00:03:40 ◼   ► expense that you spend on other people's

00:03:42 ◼   ► labor is a lot of money usually like

00:03:44 ◼   ► relative to what you're bringing in like

00:03:46 ◼   ► hiring contract workers hiring services

00:03:48 ◼   ► to make you things like videos and and

00:03:50 ◼   ► designers this can be a substantial

00:03:52 ◼   ► expense for Indies and often it is just

00:03:55 ◼   ► completely not within the budget or at

00:03:58 ◼   ► least it would be it would be way too

00:04:00 ◼   ► big of a portion of the budget to make

00:04:02 ◼   ► it probably on a good idea so a lot of

00:04:04 ◼   ► times you you as an Indian have to do a

00:04:06 ◼   ► lot of this crazy stuff yourself you

00:04:07 ◼   ► have to be able to make you know whip up

00:04:09 ◼   ► a little like logo for things sometimes

00:04:11 ◼   ► you have to like like if the App Store

00:04:13 ◼   ► asks you for promotional artwork for

00:04:16 ◼   ► your app for possible featuring in the

00:04:17 ◼   ► store you have to you have to design

00:04:21 ◼   ► something that fits their requirements

00:04:23 ◼   ► which change over time and are always

00:04:25 ◼   ► slightly different

00:04:26 ◼   ► it's like you can't just have a designer

00:04:28 ◼   ► make something once and and be done

00:04:30 ◼   ► forever like you have to be able to whip

00:04:32 ◼   ► stuff together in that in that way for

00:04:34 ◼   ► like for something that that you might

00:04:36 ◼   ► have to get done by like tomorrow at

00:04:38 ◼   ► noon or you kind of need to do this

00:04:40 ◼   ► right now to have this opportunity or

00:04:42 ◼   ► something like that and you know things

00:04:44 ◼   ► like as you see the videos are another

00:04:46 ◼   ► excellent example of like you know if if

00:04:48 ◼   ► you have an app and Apple announces hey

00:04:51 ◼   ► now you can do app previews in the app

00:04:53 ◼   ► store if you already know the basics of

00:04:55 ◼   ► how to cut together a video that's that

00:04:57 ◼   ► looks halfway decent that puts you way

00:04:59 ◼   ► ahead of so many other people who will

00:05:02 ◼   ► never do that can't do that very well or

00:05:05 ◼   ► just would never even try because they

00:05:08 ◼   ► would think it's impossible and so to

00:05:11 ◼   ► have that kind of transferable skill

00:05:12 ◼   ► just from side projects it's incredibly

00:05:15 ◼   ► valuable I mean and and as you as you

00:05:18 ◼   ► get older I think it serves you well to

00:05:21 ◼   ► to add to that repertoire as much as you

00:05:24 ◼   ► possibly can when you have the chance so

00:05:26 ◼   ► to do crazy side projects it's to try

00:05:29 ◼   ► out some new tool or some new medium or

00:05:31 ◼   ► something else you know try out new

00:05:34 ◼   ► stuff have little side projects even if

00:05:36 ◼   ► they don't go anywhere themselves they

00:05:38 ◼   ► will build up those skills in you and

00:05:40 ◼   ► you will probably need them at some

00:05:42 ◼   ► point down the road yeah and I feel like

00:05:44 ◼   ► - there's this interesting thing with

00:05:46 ◼   ► these types of skills is that in some

00:05:49 ◼   ► ways like the older I get the more I

00:05:51 ◼   ► understand that like there is certainly

00:05:54 ◼   ► something to be said for being like

00:05:57 ◼   ► super super expert at something like

00:06:00 ◼   ► somebody who can do one thing

00:06:02 ◼   ► extraordinarily well sound like there's

00:06:05 ◼   ► a value of it to that both you know in

00:06:07 ◼   ► it professionally as a society like this

00:06:09 ◼   ► is important for some people to go down

00:06:10 ◼   ► that road but I know for myself what I

00:06:13 ◼   ► found is that it's like it's more jet

00:06:17 ◼   ► it's probably more applicable and

00:06:19 ◼   ► flexible to try to consciously develop a

00:06:23 ◼   ► broad range of skills to apply to you

00:06:27 ◼   ► know to apply to different areas of your

00:06:29 ◼   ► work and so to be able to do lots of

00:06:31 ◼   ► different things

00:06:32 ◼   ► I mean it's helpful both obviously in

00:06:33 ◼   ► terms of like if you're trying to get a

00:06:34 ◼   ► job you know if you're trying to market

00:06:37 ◼   ► yourself as something like it's great if

00:06:39 ◼   ► you can do this one thing and that's the

00:06:40 ◼   ► exactly what someone's looking for but

00:06:41 ◼   ► if you're looking for a job and like you

00:06:43 ◼   ► can do lots of things pretty well and be

00:06:45 ◼   ► a good quick learner of the other stuff

00:06:47 ◼   ► like that's probably more attractive to

00:06:49 ◼   ► you know to a person but it's also just

00:06:51 ◼   ► honestly I find that it's more fun for

00:06:53 ◼   ► me to have this kind of a perspective a

00:06:56 ◼   ► skillset and an ability to be able to

00:06:58 ◼   ► try so many different things and be able

00:07:02 ◼   ► to do like a lot of things basically

00:07:04 ◼   ► competently not like well like I can't

00:07:08 ◼   ► you know the things I can do in

00:07:09 ◼   ► Photoshop or in Final Cut are not fancy

00:07:12 ◼   ► they're not like I'm not a graphic

00:07:14 ◼   ► designer

00:07:15 ◼   ► I'm not a videographer or whatever but I

00:07:19 ◼   ► can do these things too enough of a

00:07:21 ◼   ► level that it's fun and it's interesting

00:07:23 ◼   ► and it's clean its competent like

00:07:24 ◼   ► there's not just glaring mistakes and

00:07:26 ◼   ► huge problems and it's kind of a nice

00:07:29 ◼   ► thing to be able to do that and honestly

00:07:31 ◼   ► I think if it's part of what it's

00:07:32 ◼   ► allowed me to stay interested and

00:07:35 ◼   ► excited and the kind of work that I do

00:07:37 ◼   ► you know like I've been making iOS apps

00:07:39 ◼   ► now for a very long time and in many

00:07:43 ◼   ► ways I'm kind of like bored with making

00:07:45 ◼   ► iOS apps but the the core mechanics of

00:07:48 ◼   ► making iOS apps is not the thing that is

00:07:50 ◼   ► as nearly as exciting as all the various

00:07:53 ◼   ► other things that go into being you know

00:07:56 ◼   ► being self-employed especially and like

00:07:58 ◼   ► it's fun to find these new these new

00:08:00 ◼   ► things that to try and pull into your

00:08:02 ◼   ► work to you know just to try something

00:08:04 ◼   ► new and keep it fresh and interesting

00:08:06 ◼   ► that if you don't I feel like I just get

00:08:09 ◼   ► bored and then I don't know what I do I

00:08:11 ◼   ► don't know what else I'd do like this is

00:08:12 ◼   ► certainly the skill that I have the most

00:08:14 ◼   ► and would make sense for me to continue

00:08:15 ◼   ► to pursue but it's definitely something

00:08:18 ◼   ► that I'm glad that I can add this

00:08:20 ◼   ► diversity and sort of vibrancy into my

00:08:23 ◼   ► work by looking for those side projects

00:08:25 ◼   ► by looking for the hobbies and then in

00:08:27 ◼   ► my own work looking for huh what can I

00:08:29 ◼   ► learn take from this experience and put

00:08:32 ◼   ► into you know my into my own work it

00:08:35 ◼   ► also just it gives your brain different

00:08:37 ◼   ► outlets so for different different types

00:08:40 ◼   ► of work and satisfaction and challenge

00:08:43 ◼   ► and creativity you know all these

00:08:46 ◼   ► different types of work that we do serve

00:08:48 ◼   ► those needs and provide different levels

00:08:50 ◼   ► of fulfillment all differently and so

00:08:52 ◼   ► like like for me I

00:08:53 ◼   ► I make apps and that satisfies like my

00:08:56 ◼   ► programmer brain I also do podcasts and

00:08:58 ◼   ► I added them fairly creatively and and

00:09:02 ◼   ► and like that and sometimes I even write

00:09:05 ◼   ► blog posts and and these are all

00:09:07 ◼   ► completely different types of creative

00:09:11 ◼   ► or intellectual outlets and they and

00:09:14 ◼   ► like if I don't do any one of them for a

00:09:16 ◼   ► long time like I'm not as satisfied I'm

00:09:20 ◼   ► not as intellectually satisfied and

00:09:21 ◼   ► happy as if I'm do if I'm satisfying all

00:09:24 ◼   ► these different things you know often

00:09:26 ◼   ► and then you know I'll go in - I'll go

00:09:28 ◼   ► in phases where I will get more or less

00:09:30 ◼   ► into photography and I recently even

00:09:32 ◼   ► started doing video attempts and these

00:09:36 ◼   ► are you know it's it's all this all

00:09:39 ◼   ► serves multiple purposes you know as you

00:09:41 ◼   ► mentioned like it is nice to have just

00:09:43 ◼   ► the break it in but to me it's also nice

00:09:46 ◼   ► to be able to develop different parts of

00:09:48 ◼   ► your creative and intellectual mind and

00:09:51 ◼   ► and then 2sat it to exercise and satisfy

00:09:53 ◼   ► those in different ways yeah and you are

00:09:56 ◼   ► so it's it's also probably just it's a

00:09:59 ◼   ► weird thing to say but I feel like it's

00:10:00 ◼   ► it's a development look it's also a

00:10:02 ◼   ► discipline to think of for yourself of

00:10:04 ◼   ► looking at our our past experiences and

00:10:08 ◼   ► trying to see if there are any things in

00:10:10 ◼   ► there that like make us you better at

00:10:14 ◼   ► like the job at hand you know so we're

00:10:16 ◼   ► like if I look at my job it's like I'm

00:10:18 ◼   ► trying to make apps but I can look at my

00:10:21 ◼   ► past experience like what do i what

00:10:22 ◼   ► experiences do I have that mode make me

00:10:25 ◼   ► distinctly good at this and where can I

00:10:28 ◼   ► draw that from and like it may come from

00:10:30 ◼   ► things that aren't as obvious or aren't

00:10:34 ◼   ► as like straightforward like you know in

00:10:38 ◼   ► some ways I recently have been doing a

00:10:40 ◼   ► lot of health and fitness apps and it's

00:10:41 ◼   ► like some of that I'm drawing from

00:10:42 ◼   ► obviously my own experience I wouldn't

00:10:45 ◼   ► say like I'm a huge person who like me

00:10:47 ◼   ► I'm like I'm like a gym rat who works

00:10:48 ◼   ► out all the time but I've had a fairly

00:10:50 ◼   ► active lifestyle for quite a while and

00:10:53 ◼   ► it's like I can draw from those

00:10:54 ◼   ► experiences to be doing to an inform and

00:10:57 ◼   ► make my products better whereas someone

00:10:59 ◼   ► who didn't have that experience who'd

00:11:01 ◼   ► never you know gone to a gym in their

00:11:03 ◼   ► life couldn't really do the kind of apps

00:11:05 ◼   ► that I do and that's just an example of

00:11:07 ◼   ► the things that we do in our lives that

00:11:10 ◼   ► we couldn't use as a like an unfair

00:11:13 ◼   ► advantage because most of like being

00:11:15 ◼   ► able to be successful like it's always

00:11:16 ◼   ► so often it is predicated on finding

00:11:19 ◼   ► this little bit of leverage that is

00:11:22 ◼   ► somewhat unique to us that we can apply

00:11:24 ◼   ► in a way that it gives us an unfair

00:11:27 ◼   ► advantage over our competitors because

00:11:29 ◼   ► if we're just all the same then I guess

00:11:31 ◼   ► it's just completely random who's gonna

00:11:32 ◼   ► win but if you can find a reason that's

00:11:35 ◼   ► just like here's this thing that I can

00:11:36 ◼   ► do like I'm the person who had you know

00:11:38 ◼   ► has an active lifestyle who's been

00:11:40 ◼   ► making mobile apps for a while

00:11:41 ◼   ► Apple introduces this new API I jump in

00:11:45 ◼   ► and dive in I dive into it and start

00:11:47 ◼   ► using it like that narrows down the

00:11:50 ◼   ► world of people who can do that thing

00:11:51 ◼   ► and so looking back at our lives and

00:11:55 ◼   ► being like what if what do we do what

00:11:57 ◼   ► are we interested in like what hobbies

00:11:58 ◼   ► do we have you know what what does that

00:12:00 ◼   ► look like is it really I think good is a

00:12:03 ◼   ► good bit of like a mental discipline of

00:12:06 ◼   ► like that introspection is probably a

00:12:07 ◼   ► helpful thing to make sure that we're

00:12:09 ◼   ► not like missing some skill or ability

00:12:11 ◼   ► that we have that we could be leveraging

00:12:13 ◼   ► somehow in our work oh yeah because like

00:12:15 ◼   ► the the business implication you know

00:12:17 ◼   ► like so there was like the you know the

00:12:19 ◼   ► intellectual and creative satisfaction

00:12:21 ◼   ► implications of having all these

00:12:23 ◼   ► different skills that's one thing but as

00:12:25 ◼   ► you mentioned like the business side of

00:12:26 ◼   ► this is also incredibly important you

00:12:30 ◼   ► know because it goes beyond just like

00:12:31 ◼   ► you know what do I know that other

00:12:33 ◼   ► people don't know about making a new

00:12:35 ◼   ► type of app X into like if you have a

00:12:38 ◼   ► bit more broad or varied or specialized

00:12:41 ◼   ► perspective into the world you will not

00:12:44 ◼   ► only have skills that not every other

00:12:47 ◼   ► iOS programmer has but you will also be

00:12:49 ◼   ► able to identify opportunities and

00:12:51 ◼   ► identify new markets new kinds of apps

00:12:54 ◼   ► that can be made or markets that are

00:12:57 ◼   ► incredibly underserved or badly served

00:12:59 ◼   ► by what's out there now you will see

00:13:02 ◼   ► those before the whole rest of the world

00:13:04 ◼   ► will ever see them because you'll you

00:13:06 ◼   ► already be in that world like you know

00:13:08 ◼   ► like every time I go to the dentist I

00:13:09 ◼   ► always laugh at like how incredibly bad

00:13:11 ◼   ► their software looks on the screen

00:13:12 ◼   ► that's and that's in the the cleaning

00:13:14 ◼   ► rooms and it's it's like not Windows 95

00:13:17 ◼   ► software I'm just like you know not a

00:13:20 ◼   ► lot of iOS developer

00:13:21 ◼   ► our dental hygienists and so they they

00:13:24 ◼   ► don't see this this isn't a totally

00:13:27 ◼   ► underserved market and if you happen to

00:13:30 ◼   ► be an iOS developer who's also a dental

00:13:32 ◼   ► hygienist you could you would see this

00:13:35 ◼   ► and you might be able to make better

00:13:36 ◼   ► software that would help this market and

00:13:39 ◼   ► that's it's an area where almost no

00:13:41 ◼   ► one's competing right and so like this

00:13:43 ◼   ► is like there's so many different things

00:13:44 ◼   ► like almost everybody has some some need

00:13:47 ◼   ► or or hobby or skill in their life that

00:13:50 ◼   ► is fairly unusual among other developers

00:13:54 ◼   ► and you know use that like one of the

00:13:58 ◼   ► reasons I was able to to develop all the

00:14:00 ◼   ► overcast audio filtering stuff a couple

00:14:03 ◼   ► years ago is that I've been playing with

00:14:05 ◼   ► audio my entire life like I've always

00:14:08 ◼   ► been obsessed with audio I was doing

00:14:10 ◼   ► compression analysis and and weird like

00:14:14 ◼   ► attempts at horrible hacks and audio

00:14:16 ◼   ► processing since long before I was an

00:14:19 ◼   ► iOS developer I've just always loved it

00:14:21 ◼   ► I've always measured that I've always

00:14:22 ◼   ► you know done a lot of research about it

00:14:24 ◼   ► and and and known and known a lot about

00:14:26 ◼   ► it and you know it's just one of these

00:14:28 ◼   ► things like that helped me out

00:14:29 ◼   ► tremendously I could also take a decent

00:14:31 ◼   ► picture sometimes and so when I made

00:14:33 ◼   ► Instapaper and I needed an icon and I

00:14:36 ◼   ► had no money to give anybody else to

00:14:37 ◼   ► make me an icon I just took a pretty

00:14:39 ◼   ► good picture of the pages of a book and

00:14:41 ◼   ► I put like a little stupid Photoshop

00:14:43 ◼   ► border around it and in retrospect it

00:14:45 ◼   ► looked terrible but it was good enough

00:14:47 ◼   ► for the time like it was totally fine

00:14:49 ◼   ► and and I didn't I didn't have any

00:14:51 ◼   ► choice I couldn't afford a designer at

00:14:53 ◼   ► that time so I just did what I could

00:14:55 ◼   ► with my existing skills put it out there

00:14:58 ◼   ► and it worked fine it was good enough

00:15:00 ◼   ► and you know same thing like with with

00:15:02 ◼   ► screenshots with a lot of icon design

00:15:04 ◼   ► that I do inside the app like you know

00:15:06 ◼   ► now like I still have my my app icon

00:15:09 ◼   ► that was designed by a real designer

00:15:11 ◼   ► Louise Mantia but my all the all the

00:15:14 ◼   ► icons that are in the app I've designed

00:15:16 ◼   ► myself because that's good enough for

00:15:18 ◼   ► you know for my purposes like I've I

00:15:20 ◼   ► developed a skill to be good enough and

00:15:21 ◼   ► it works and then I'm able to make new

00:15:26 ◼   ► icons to make adjustments to change

00:15:28 ◼   ► things like colors and thickness and and

00:15:30 ◼   ► and alignment and everything else to

00:15:33 ◼   ► make little tweaks without having to go

00:15:35 ◼   ► back and forth to designer and pay a

00:15:37 ◼   ► bunch of money because I have the skill

00:15:39 ◼   ► now like the basically the smartest

00:15:42 ◼   ► thing you can do with these skills is

00:15:44 ◼   ► like find ways to rope them into your

00:15:48 ◼   ► business wherever possible so that's not

00:15:51 ◼   ► to say that every that you shouldn't

00:15:52 ◼   ► have anything that's just that's just

00:15:53 ◼   ► randomly fun but if you have other

00:15:57 ◼   ► skills that could be useful in your

00:15:58 ◼   ► isn't it like if you're looking to

00:15:59 ◼   ► develop some kind of visual artistry

00:16:01 ◼   ► skill and you happen to make iOS apps

00:16:03 ◼   ► well you know what you have a really

00:16:05 ◼   ► great opportunity right there to tie

00:16:07 ◼   ► those things together and to to design

00:16:10 ◼   ► the stuff in your app using your

00:16:11 ◼   ► newfound visual artistry skills like

00:16:13 ◼   ► there are there are lots of

00:16:14 ◼   ► opportunities that you will have as a

00:16:16 ◼   ► developer to integrate multiple skills

00:16:18 ◼   ► in and I think what we're saying this

00:16:19 ◼   ► episode is you really should and you

00:16:21 ◼   ► should consider learning different types

00:16:24 ◼   ► of skills or experimenting with

00:16:26 ◼   ► different types of things that could

00:16:27 ◼   ► benefit your apps we are sponsored this

00:16:30 ◼   ► week by xoj oh go to so Joe calm that's

00:16:34 ◼   ► EXO Jo calm EXO jo calm slash radar to

00:16:40 ◼   ► find more and listeners of the show can

00:16:41 ◼   ► get 20% off any license with code radar

00:16:44 ◼   ► 20 0 is a cross-platform development

00:16:46 ◼   ► tool for creating native apps for

00:16:48 ◼   ► desktop mobile web and even the

00:16:50 ◼   ► Raspberry Pi tell you what Raspberry Pi

00:16:52 ◼   ► I have never used one of those things

00:16:54 ◼   ► but I really want to there's another

00:16:56 ◼   ► skill I feel like I should probably

00:16:57 ◼   ► develop because it's like a little

00:16:59 ◼   ► computer for like 30 bucks and it's just

00:17:00 ◼   ► oh man the opportunities there are

00:17:02 ◼   ► endless anyway so Joe will help you

00:17:04 ◼   ► develop cross-platform apps desktop

00:17:06 ◼   ► mobile web and Raspberry Pi that

00:17:08 ◼   ► currently support Mac OS Windows Linux

00:17:10 ◼   ► iOS and coming soon even Android with

00:17:13 ◼   ► xoj oh you can write just one version of

00:17:15 ◼   ► your app say on the Mac for instance the

00:17:17 ◼   ► and then you can just check a checkbox

00:17:18 ◼   ► and have a completely native Windows

00:17:19 ◼   ► version as well it really is that simple

00:17:21 ◼   ► so Joe uses native controls so your app

00:17:24 ◼   ► your app looks at home on every platform

00:17:26 ◼   ► that it runs on you'll be able to you'll

00:17:28 ◼   ► be able to build apps 10 times faster

00:17:30 ◼   ► which will save you time and this is

00:17:31 ◼   ► also especially useful for indie

00:17:33 ◼   ► developers right here because you can't

00:17:35 ◼   ► afford like a separate Android and iOS

00:17:37 ◼   ► Department no you can just use Oh Joe

00:17:39 ◼   ► fry one app and you can cover all these

00:17:40 ◼   ► different platforms it is great for

00:17:42 ◼   ► everyone newbies to professional

00:17:43 ◼   ► developers it's currently used by over

00:17:45 ◼   ► 300,000 developers worldwide from

00:17:48 ◼   ► students to Fortune 500 companies so go

00:17:51 ◼   ► take a look at their site you will see

00:17:52 ◼   ► just how many companies you recognize

00:17:53 ◼   ► who use xoj oh and it's free to use and

00:17:56 ◼   ► you just need a license too if you want

00:17:59 ◼   ► to build a standalone application so you

00:18:00 ◼   ► can you can try it out you could develop

00:18:01 ◼   ► with it for free but if you want to

00:18:02 ◼   ► build a standalone app you need a

00:18:03 ◼   ► license go to xoj o comm it's XO j o

00:18:07 ◼   ► comm slash radar to find out more and

00:18:09 ◼   ► listeners of the show can get 20% off

00:18:11 ◼   ► any license with code radar 20 once

00:18:14 ◼   ► again so Joe comm slash radar code radar

00:18:17 ◼   ► 20 thank you so much - so Joe for their

00:18:20 ◼   ► support of this show so given the

00:18:24 ◼   ► benefits that we're kind of extolling

00:18:26 ◼   ► about having side projects and having

00:18:28 ◼   ► these things that you do to kind of

00:18:31 ◼   ► build a breadth of skills and

00:18:33 ◼   ► experiences it doesn't mean that it does

00:18:34 ◼   ► come to mind to me though is the the

00:18:37 ◼   ► difficulty often in starting a new

00:18:39 ◼   ► project and so one I think it made sense

00:18:42 ◼   ► to wrap this up by kind of talking about

00:18:44 ◼   ► that process of having an idea for a

00:18:48 ◼   ► project a side thing and then actually

00:18:50 ◼   ► making it happen and like what comes to

00:18:51 ◼   ► mind to me is like for a long time I've

00:18:53 ◼   ► always been a longtime lover of podcast

00:18:56 ◼   ► and I would listen to podcasts all the

00:18:58 ◼   ► time and it was just like a big part of

00:18:59 ◼   ► my day and I was head in the back of my

00:19:01 ◼   ► mind like oh man I should get into that

00:19:03 ◼   ► I should you know I should make a

00:19:05 ◼   ► podcast I should do something for myself

00:19:06 ◼   ► and for a long time I didn't and the

00:19:10 ◼   ► advice that I actually ended up getting

00:19:11 ◼   ► I think that's pretty sure this was from

00:19:12 ◼   ► back to work for Maryland man is he was

00:19:14 ◼   ► like if you if you have something in

00:19:15 ◼   ► your mind that is that you keep saying

00:19:18 ◼   ► to yourself like oh one day I'll do this

00:19:20 ◼   ► one day I'll learn how to do that one

00:19:21 ◼   ► day I'll kind of go through and build

00:19:22 ◼   ► that discipline it's like what you

00:19:24 ◼   ► really need to do is just look at this

00:19:26 ◼   ► it's like make it very a time-bound

00:19:28 ◼   ► goal and do that thing on a regular

00:19:31 ◼   ► basis for that time and at the end you

00:19:34 ◼   ► can decide is this actually something I

00:19:36 ◼   ► like do I enjoy it is this or am I just

00:19:38 ◼   ► kind of having this dream that I'm gonna

00:19:41 ◼   ► love it and I'll actually try it and

00:19:42 ◼   ► I'll hate it and so for me like I

00:19:44 ◼   ► started the podcast I did before under

00:19:46 ◼   ► the radar developing perspective I

00:19:47 ◼   ► started it with a like this terrible

00:19:50 ◼   ► Logitech USB headset microphone like I

00:19:52 ◼   ► didn't don't body like don't like buy

00:19:54 ◼   ► into the lie that you need all this

00:19:55 ◼   ► equipment or you need all these fancy

00:19:56 ◼   ► things before you can start like you can

00:19:58 ◼   ► almost certainly start with just like

00:19:59 ◼   ► what you have like your smartphone can

00:20:01 ◼   ► do

00:20:02 ◼   ► most everything you could ever possibly

00:20:03 ◼   ► need for creative project and so just

00:20:06 ◼   ► like go with that and he said what I

00:20:07 ◼   ► just said is like okay I'm gonna do an

00:20:08 ◼   ► episode every day for I think I said

00:20:11 ◼   ► about three weeks in so I did which was

00:20:13 ◼   ► over 15 episodes 30 minutes her that was

00:20:16 ◼   ► 15 minutes or less and so like I'm just

00:20:18 ◼   ► gonna do 15 15 minute episodes and if I

00:20:21 ◼   ► can do that and then it get to the end

00:20:23 ◼   ► of it like hey I can buy myself a good

00:20:25 ◼   ► mic and so on like at that point if I

00:20:27 ◼   ► decide that I want to do it but I found

00:20:29 ◼   ► it was really helpful to look at a

00:20:30 ◼   ► project like that and say it's like I

00:20:33 ◼   ► just need to commit to it try it and

00:20:34 ◼   ► then if I like it great if not you know

00:20:37 ◼   ► I can move on it for me it turned that

00:20:38 ◼   ► podcasting was great I enjoyed it and

00:20:40 ◼   ► you know I did

00:20:42 ◼   ► developing perspective for three or four

00:20:44 ◼   ► years and we've been doing under the

00:20:45 ◼   ► radar for over a year now

00:20:47 ◼   ► like podcasting is something that is

00:20:49 ◼   ► useful has been useful for my career in

00:20:51 ◼   ► terms of building a bit of a brand and a

00:20:54 ◼   ► personality online as well as it's like

00:20:57 ◼   ► useful in other weird ways like like I

00:20:59 ◼   ► said I did a walkthrough video for

00:21:01 ◼   ► workouts plus plus and it involved a

00:21:05 ◼   ► like a voiceover you know Mikey doing

00:21:07 ◼   ► this voice-over work as I show how to

00:21:10 ◼   ► use the app I did all the voice of work

00:21:12 ◼   ► in one take mostly because I have done

00:21:16 ◼   ► podcast for so long that speaking in an

00:21:18 ◼   ► uninterrupted kind of hopefully vaguely

00:21:20 ◼   ► coherent way is fairly natural now and

00:21:24 ◼   ► similarly like doing having started

00:21:26 ◼   ► podcasting the prospect of doing public

00:21:29 ◼   ► speaking was a lot less scary like I

00:21:31 ◼   ► used to think that was just like

00:21:32 ◼   ► absolutely terrifying that I'd be

00:21:34 ◼   ► standing up on stage and I just would

00:21:37 ◼   ► have no words and I would just be

00:21:38 ◼   ► standing there you know sort of

00:21:39 ◼   ► dumbstruck with nothing to say I'm less

00:21:41 ◼   ► worried about that now because I'm I

00:21:43 ◼   ► have the I've built the muscle and the

00:21:45 ◼   ► skill of sitting down in front of a

00:21:47 ◼   ► microphone and just talking for a while

00:21:50 ◼   ► and I got all that out of starting

00:21:54 ◼   ► actually just deciding that yes I'm

00:21:55 ◼   ► gonna try this I'm gonna try it and I'm

00:21:57 ◼   ► gonna start it and then I do said did

00:21:59 ◼   ► start it and then you know it worked out

00:22:00 ◼   ► and if I've gotten to the end of that 15

00:22:02 ◼   ► episodes and said you know what

00:22:03 ◼   ► podcasting soft for me it's like okay

00:22:05 ◼   ► that's great now I know that for sure

00:22:07 ◼   ► rather than kind of like kidding myself

00:22:09 ◼   ► about one day maybe sometime if I'm

00:22:13 ◼   ► lucky if I have time

00:22:14 ◼   ► you know when I'm less busy I'll be able

00:22:17 ◼   ► to do it like though that day is never

00:22:19 ◼   ► going to come and so if you it actually

00:22:20 ◼   ► isn't important to you you just need to

00:22:22 ◼   ► in one day decide yes I'm gonna do this

00:22:24 ◼   ► make it time down in short so you're not

00:22:26 ◼   ► actually kidding yourself and saying I'm

00:22:27 ◼   ► gonna do this for a year it's like no

00:22:29 ◼   ► like maybe you'll do it for a couple of

00:22:31 ◼   ► weeks and if you can do it at the end

00:22:33 ◼   ► for do it for that amount of time maybe

00:22:35 ◼   ► you'll want to do it for longer yeah

00:22:37 ◼   ► I'd also say that it helps a lot to you

00:22:41 ◼   ► know not only to to develop these skills

00:22:44 ◼   ► and and to be creatively satisfied and

00:22:47 ◼   ► to divide and to to find new markets for

00:22:50 ◼   ► apps and everything it also helps to use

00:22:54 ◼   ► what you have when choosing what to

00:22:56 ◼   ► build in your apps use the skills that

00:22:59 ◼   ► you have used the experience the wisdom

00:23:01 ◼   ► the equipment if that if that's

00:23:02 ◼   ► important to use what you have and to

00:23:06 ◼   ► choose what to work on based on that so

00:23:07 ◼   ► for instance I have now a lot of

00:23:11 ◼   ► knowledge about mp3s

00:23:14 ◼   ► audio podcasting how to process audio

00:23:17 ◼   ► how'd it how do you edit and create

00:23:18 ◼   ► podcasts how to play podcasts so I am in

00:23:23 ◼   ► a unique position here that most iOS

00:23:25 ◼   ► developers are not in to do additional

00:23:28 ◼   ► projects such as the mp3 encoder I'm

00:23:31 ◼   ► working on the chapter tool that I'm

00:23:32 ◼   ► working on and also possibly down the

00:23:35 ◼   ► road a podcast editor app like those are

00:23:38 ◼   ► all projects that I that should be on my

00:23:40 ◼   ► roadmap and and might and some of them

00:23:43 ◼   ► are you know those are all things that

00:23:44 ◼   ► like it would be an interesting idea and

00:23:47 ◼   ► probably a good idea for me to leverage

00:23:48 ◼   ► what I have he said you're wonderful

00:23:50 ◼   ► leverage were familiar leverage the

00:23:52 ◼   ► knowledge and experience and code that I

00:23:54 ◼   ► have to direct my future efforts right

00:23:58 ◼   ► it wouldn't make as much sense for my

00:24:00 ◼   ► next app to be like a calendar app

00:24:02 ◼   ► because I like I would have no advantage

00:24:06 ◼   ► over anybody else in making a calendar

00:24:08 ◼   ► app I have none of my experience leads

00:24:12 ◼   ► to that I have no existing code no

00:24:14 ◼   ► existing domain knowledge they're like I

00:24:16 ◼   ► would have to basically be relearning

00:24:17 ◼   ► everything just like anybody else

00:24:20 ◼   ► whereas if I made an audio editor that's

00:24:22 ◼   ► like a really big complex thing that you

00:24:24 ◼   ► could charge real money for probably and

00:24:26 ◼   ► but most people couldn't just jump into

00:24:28 ◼   ► them if anyone else wanted to make that

00:24:30 ◼   ► they would have to first spend a while

00:24:33 ◼   ► learning what I already know building

00:24:35 ◼   ► code I've already written and getting

00:24:37 ◼   ► experience I already have so like as I'm

00:24:41 ◼   ► choosing what to work on next I have to

00:24:42 ◼   ► think about like what is a good idea for

00:24:44 ◼   ► me to work on next and and that that

00:24:46 ◼   ► goes into other things like I know how

00:24:48 ◼   ► to market things that are related to

00:24:50 ◼   ► podcasts I like I know I have an

00:24:52 ◼   ► audience that cares about such things I

00:24:54 ◼   ► can there's there's some kind of

00:24:57 ◼   ► opportunities for integrations between

00:24:59 ◼   ► what I already have an app on cash

00:25:01 ◼   ► related thing whereas if I'm a counter

00:25:03 ◼   ► app next I have nothing I have I start

00:25:06 ◼   ► from zero and so this it really helps to

00:25:10 ◼   ► use what you have to help choose what

00:25:14 ◼   ► goes into your portfolio at all I mean

00:25:15 ◼   ► you're really good at this everything

00:25:17 ◼   ► you do recently has had a substantial

00:25:19 ◼   ► watch and fitness component because

00:25:21 ◼   ► you're really good at watch stuff and

00:25:23 ◼   ► Fitness stuff yeah and seeing that like

00:25:27 ◼   ► has in a weird way if I have had to make

00:25:30 ◼   ► peace with that like that you kind of

00:25:33 ◼   ► have did there in my mind I kind of look

00:25:36 ◼   ► at the world with like there's so many

00:25:37 ◼   ► different types of development that I

00:25:40 ◼   ► could want to get into that there's so

00:25:42 ◼   ► many things that I could like ins was

00:25:43 ◼   ► like a calendar app like I have ideas

00:25:45 ◼   ► for a calendar app like I have an idea

00:25:47 ◼   ► for almost every app of course like I

00:25:49 ◼   ► have a massive list of things that are

00:25:51 ◼   ► like one someday maybe maybe I'd love to

00:25:53 ◼   ► build I had taken a little bit of kind

00:25:56 ◼   ► of I never know like understanding to

00:25:59 ◼   ► just look at myself and be like you know

00:26:00 ◼   ► what I should do though I should make

00:26:02 ◼   ► the things that I'm uniquely good at and

00:26:03 ◼   ► the things that I have some more skills

00:26:05 ◼   ► and experience at because while it could

00:26:07 ◼   ► be interesting and fun to like make the

00:26:10 ◼   ► other kind of crazy app and go in that

00:26:11 ◼   ► direction like the reality is I'm

00:26:14 ◼   ► probably wasting my time if I go in that

00:26:16 ◼   ► way whereas if I do something that I you

00:26:19 ◼   ► know I have this these abilities and

00:26:21 ◼   ► skills and then I'm not and it's also in

00:26:24 ◼   ► a weird way like I think when I think

00:26:26 ◼   ► about transferable skills like I think

00:26:27 ◼   ► about how in a weird way it's kind of a

00:26:32 ◼   ► relief because it takes past failings or

00:26:36 ◼   ► things that didn't really work out

00:26:38 ◼   ► and lets you look at them in a more

00:26:40 ◼   ► positive light that like so I think

00:26:43 ◼   ► about like I did a serially this YouTube

00:26:45 ◼   ► you know video serious teeth about like

00:26:47 ◼   ► teaching it was like teaching people how

00:26:49 ◼   ► to make watch apps it's like this idea

00:26:51 ◼   ► that I had I put it on YouTube and a lot

00:26:53 ◼   ► to go would watch it and it would be you

00:26:54 ◼   ► know big exciting and it's this new line

00:26:56 ◼   ► of sort of like business for me but a

00:26:58 ◼   ► new big thing for me and I went nowhere

00:27:00 ◼   ► like hardly anybody watch them it was

00:27:02 ◼   ► ostensibly like a failure but if I can

00:27:06 ◼   ► if I can look at it instead from a

00:27:08 ◼   ► perspective of like take that experience

00:27:10 ◼   ► break it down into the skills that I

00:27:13 ◼   ► learned as a result from that like the

00:27:16 ◼   ► learned skills are never a failure like

00:27:18 ◼   ► the outcomes may have been failed like

00:27:20 ◼   ► they didn't go anywhere and they were

00:27:21 ◼   ► didn't really do anything but the things

00:27:23 ◼   ► that I learned in the process of doing

00:27:24 ◼   ► it is narrow that he's never wasted if I

00:27:28 ◼   ► can find a place to then put that into

00:27:29 ◼   ► my work and then now I can look at my

00:27:31 ◼   ► work now and say yeah it's like here's

00:27:33 ◼   ► the things that I can do I'm gonna make

00:27:35 ◼   ► things that work in that that focus into

00:27:37 ◼   ► that that used all these abilities that

00:27:39 ◼   ► I've been building up over time often

00:27:41 ◼   ► out of things that didn't work out in

00:27:42 ◼   ► the past and then you know apply that

00:27:45 ◼   ► into a new way and that just increases

00:27:47 ◼   ► the odds because ultimately I'll be like

00:27:49 ◼   ► we can own these are like guaranteed

00:27:50 ◼   ► ways to be successful like it's like all

00:27:52 ◼   ► we can do is just like turn the dial up

00:27:54 ◼   ► slightly so that's like we have a

00:27:56 ◼   ► slightly better chance of being

00:27:57 ◼   ► successful we have a slightly better

00:27:59 ◼   ► chance of making something like

00:28:01 ◼   ► impressive and awesome and this also

00:28:03 ◼   ► goes towards diversity of income and

00:28:06 ◼   ► resilience of your you know financial

00:28:08 ◼   ► independence to is like as you develop

00:28:10 ◼   ► these other skills that that are

00:28:12 ◼   ► separate from you know the raw iOS app

00:28:15 ◼   ► development core skill that you're

00:28:17 ◼   ► making your business you you then make

00:28:20 ◼   ► it easier not only for you to have

00:28:21 ◼   ► alternate income streams if you get good

00:28:23 ◼   ► enough entities things you could

00:28:24 ◼   ► actually make them side businesses but

00:28:26 ◼   ► also when the next big thing comes along

00:28:28 ◼   ► suppose the next big thing is some kind

00:28:31 ◼   ► of combination of iOS apps video

00:28:34 ◼   ► production and icon design like if you

00:28:37 ◼   ► already have like the pieces necessary

00:28:39 ◼   ► you can jump right into the next thing

00:28:41 ◼   ► the next kind of thing that comes around

00:28:43 ◼   ► faster and better than other people can

00:28:45 ◼   ► who are starting from scratch or who

00:28:46 ◼   ► have totally unrelated skills it really

00:28:49 ◼   ► like all these things that we've been

00:28:51 ◼   ► talking about about like

00:28:52 ◼   ► how to basically be like us or at least

00:28:54 ◼   ► how we how we'd like to be these all fit

00:28:57 ◼   ► together the end this is all part of one

00:28:59 ◼   ► big puzzle here that if you have diverse

00:29:03 ◼   ► skills from different areas that you can

00:29:04 ◼   ► bring together to make your iOS apps and

00:29:06 ◼   ► possibly also have different audience

00:29:08 ◼   ► growth from them or different revenue

00:29:10 ◼   ► growth the revenue diversity from them

00:29:11 ◼   ► that all fits together into making a

00:29:14 ◼   ► successful in your developer all right

00:29:16 ◼   ► and with all that said we are at a time

00:29:18 ◼   ► this week thank you very much everybody

00:29:20 ◼   ► for listening and we'll talk to you next

00:29:21 ◼   ► week bye