Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm mark

00:00:04 ◼   ► Worman and I'm David Smith under the

00:00:06 ◼   ► radar is never longer than 30 minutes so

00:00:08 ◼   ► let's get started so today we wanted to

00:00:11 ◼   ► start what is largely going to be a kind

00:00:14 ◼   ► of the two-part series about I guess

00:00:18 ◼   ► more the financial business side of

00:00:21 ◼   ► being an app maker and specifically

00:00:25 ◼   ► we're going to be talking through

00:00:26 ◼   ► viewing your apps in two different so

00:00:31 ◼   ► sort of in turn through two different

00:00:33 ◼   ► lenses one we're going to talk about

00:00:34 ◼   ► today is kind of viewing your apps as

00:00:37 ◼   ► though you're creating annuities that

00:00:40 ◼   ► pay you back over time and then in next

00:00:42 ◼   ► week we're going to be talking a little

00:00:44 ◼   ► bit about viewing your apps as sort of

00:00:46 ◼   ► assets that you are building up for the

00:00:48 ◼   ► purposes of selling down the future data

00:00:50 ◼   ► down the road and they're just kind of I

00:00:53 ◼   ► think this is one of those topics that

00:00:55 ◼   ► is very much outside of the typical like

00:00:59 ◼   ► developer II kind of topics and the kind

00:01:01 ◼   ► of things that we would normally you

00:01:03 ◼   ► know discuss in the sense that you know

00:01:05 ◼   ► we're not talking about xcode we're not

00:01:06 ◼   ► talking about design there's gonna be

00:01:08 ◼   ► AWC session about how to sell your

00:01:10 ◼   ► business yeah like this is a topic that

00:01:13 ◼   ► is very much you know this is like a

00:01:15 ◼   ► business topic you could be we could be

00:01:16 ◼   ► making anything it doesn't the fact that

00:01:18 ◼   ► it's an application is in some ways kind

00:01:20 ◼   ► of immaterial but I know for myself when

00:01:23 ◼   ► I started off being um you know started

00:01:26 ◼   ► off doing this I gave no thought to this

00:01:29 ◼   ► these types of topics at all I was

00:01:31 ◼   ► focused entirely on the development side

00:01:32 ◼   ► of things I was focused on the design

00:01:33 ◼   ► side of things and the marketing to some

00:01:36 ◼   ► degree but like thinking of these kind

00:01:38 ◼   ► of broader business things wasn't really

00:01:39 ◼   ► you know something that was on my radar

00:01:41 ◼   ► at all and now you know whatever eight

00:01:44 ◼   ► and a half years later it is something

00:01:46 ◼   ► that I think about more and I realized

00:01:48 ◼   ► the importance of thinking through

00:01:50 ◼   ► mostly just because depending on what

00:01:53 ◼   ► how we will you know what you want your

00:01:55 ◼   ► business to look like how you want it to

00:01:58 ◼   ► pay you and again both now and in the

00:02:00 ◼   ► future you know what your ultimate goals

00:02:02 ◼   ► are you know will impact the types of

00:02:05 ◼   ► business the types of apps that make

00:02:06 ◼   ► sense for you to build you know

00:02:08 ◼   ► different apps have very different like

00:02:10 ◼   ► revenue curves you know if you make a

00:02:12 ◼   ► I paid upfront app UUM far more likely

00:02:15 ◼   ► to have a big burst of Revenue at once

00:02:18 ◼   ► and then it will fall off you know

00:02:20 ◼   ► fairly dramatically if you have free

00:02:22 ◼   ► with at you know free with ADD or free

00:02:24 ◼   ► with in-app purchase application you're

00:02:26 ◼   ► more likely to have kind of this slow

00:02:30 ◼   ► hopefully growth of revenue that is

00:02:32 ◼   ► fairly stable over time or at least you

00:02:34 ◼   ► know shifts in these kind of more

00:02:35 ◼   ► seasonal you know in these kind of

00:02:39 ◼   ► seasonal waves and depending what you

00:02:42 ◼   ► know what you like there will make a big

00:02:44 ◼   ► difference but you know for the purpose

00:02:45 ◼   ► of today what I'm going to talk about to

00:02:47 ◼   ► start off with and this got started for

00:02:48 ◼   ► me by I've been doing a lot of work

00:02:51 ◼   ► updating my app audiobooks which I think

00:02:53 ◼   ► I've mentioned a few times over the last

00:02:54 ◼   ► few episodes and as part of it I as part

00:02:59 ◼   ► of this update is it kind of the

00:03:00 ◼   ► realization that I haven't done a real

00:03:02 ◼   ► up haven't done any work on this app

00:03:04 ◼   ► realist really for about 18 months which

00:03:07 ◼   ► is not a good idea isn't great you know

00:03:10 ◼   ► but is because other opportunities they

00:03:11 ◼   ► presented themselves have been doing

00:03:13 ◼   ► much more work on the health and fitness

00:03:14 ◼   ► side of things recently in this app that

00:03:16 ◼   ► for a while was like my bread and butter

00:03:18 ◼   ► was the thing that was paying you know

00:03:19 ◼   ► sort of like paying my mortgage each

00:03:20 ◼   ► month it kind of had fallen a bit to the

00:03:23 ◼   ► side but as a result I got this

00:03:26 ◼   ► opportunity to have some really

00:03:27 ◼   ► interesting data about of course I did I

00:03:30 ◼   ► made a spreadsheet I took a look at just

00:03:33 ◼   ► what just just one you know or two or

00:03:35 ◼   ► three it's fine I don't have a problem I

00:03:37 ◼   ► can stop anytime the I took a look at

00:03:41 ◼   ► the revenue of this app over the last 18

00:03:43 ◼   ► months because one of the things that

00:03:46 ◼   ► I've always been curious about is what

00:03:48 ◼   ► happens to an app you know when you stop

00:03:51 ◼   ► working on it when you stop maintaining

00:03:52 ◼   ► it when you stop marketing it when you

00:03:54 ◼   ► stop doing anything with it like what

00:03:55 ◼   ► does that actually look like because in

00:03:57 ◼   ► the back of my mind I've always had this

00:03:59 ◼   ► thought of like you know sales won't

00:04:01 ◼   ► immediately drop to zero like that is

00:04:04 ◼   ► you know that's just not the reality

00:04:06 ◼   ► because you know I go for weeks or

00:04:08 ◼   ► months between updates typically you

00:04:10 ◼   ► don't you know let them go out to 18

00:04:12 ◼   ► months but you kind of get the sense

00:04:15 ◼   ► that over time you know sales will

00:04:17 ◼   ► likely fall if they don't like stop

00:04:19 ◼   ► working on it you know if doing nothing

00:04:21 ◼   ► makes your revenue go up and like you do

00:04:23 ◼   ► nothing that's awesome but that's not

00:04:25 ◼   ► realistic and so

00:04:26 ◼   ► what I did for audiobooks is I took a

00:04:28 ◼   ► look over the last 18 months and looked

00:04:29 ◼   ► at what the revenue curve looked like

00:04:32 ◼   ► you know for this app with no

00:04:34 ◼   ► maintenance no anything it just been

00:04:36 ◼   ► sitting on the App Store and the app

00:04:38 ◼   ► makes its money from advertising and a

00:04:40 ◼   ► small very small degree is some a net

00:04:42 ◼   ► purchases for some kind of like premium

00:04:43 ◼   ► ebooks and what was interesting to me is

00:04:46 ◼   ► that the the curve that the revenue took

00:04:49 ◼   ► matched pretty closely to kind of a

00:04:52 ◼   ► exponential decay curve like I said

00:04:54 ◼   ► around with some best fit lines and

00:04:55 ◼   ► things and essentially what it meant is

00:04:58 ◼   ► the sales went down by half a percent I

00:05:03 ◼   ► think it was per day sort of compounding

00:05:07 ◼   ► and so you know say for argument's sake

00:05:10 ◼   ► the app had been you know selling for

00:05:12 ◼   ► $100 a day a day and then I stopped

00:05:16 ◼   ► working on it like the next day it would

00:05:18 ◼   ► lose 50 cents in revenue and the next

00:05:20 ◼   ► day like night noon for a forty nine

00:05:23 ◼   ► point eight cents and then forty nine

00:05:24 ◼   ► point five cents and so on like it it

00:05:26 ◼   ► loses less each day because of there's

00:05:28 ◼   ► less from it and that that curve of

00:05:30 ◼   ► about a half a percent a day seemed to

00:05:34 ◼   ► match fairly closely to it and which

00:05:36 ◼   ► meant that obviously as it falls down

00:05:38 ◼   ► you start losing less and less and you

00:05:41 ◼   ► per day and you become it almost surf

00:05:43 ◼   ► starts to stabilize and level out

00:05:45 ◼   ► obviously it's still losing as it goes

00:05:48 ◼   ► but it gets slower and that was really

00:05:50 ◼   ► interesting to me because that you know

00:05:53 ◼   ► like that number and that that

00:05:55 ◼   ► multiplier is I'm sure very variable

00:05:56 ◼   ► based on a lot of things but it's

00:05:57 ◼   ► instructive to think about how an app's

00:06:01 ◼   ► revenue will sort of to have that almost

00:06:05 ◼   ► certainly have that kind of a decay

00:06:06 ◼   ► curve and like the the slope of it and

00:06:08 ◼   ► the steepness of it will change but

00:06:10 ◼   ► that's a really helpful tool for me as I

00:06:12 ◼   ► think about apps because now I have I

00:06:15 ◼   ► can sort of I have some data to back up

00:06:17 ◼   ► this notion that I've always had that in

00:06:21 ◼   ► many ways the business that I like to

00:06:23 ◼   ► build is I want to have you know a

00:06:25 ◼   ► steady even income from my applications

00:06:28 ◼   ► that in an ideal world requires the

00:06:31 ◼   ► relatively small amount of constant

00:06:34 ◼   ► maintenance and input I'm coming from a

00:06:36 ◼   ► background where I used to do consulting

00:06:37 ◼   ► where I all of my income was

00:06:40 ◼   ► I guess you could call it like prepaid

00:06:42 ◼   ► in the sense that I see I have a

00:06:44 ◼   ► contract with someone that says I'm

00:06:45 ◼   ► going to work for them for you know I'm

00:06:49 ◼   ► gonna work for them for 80 hours and

00:06:50 ◼   ► they're gonna pay me $100 an hour so

00:06:52 ◼   ► they are going to pay me $8,000 and

00:06:54 ◼   ► that's the contract and that's the most

00:06:56 ◼   ► I'll ever make from that project and

00:06:58 ◼   ► it's all kind of prepaid and shifting to

00:07:00 ◼   ► a world where everything's postpaid

00:07:01 ◼   ► where in the I do all this work for

00:07:04 ◼   ► nothing essentially I would released the

00:07:07 ◼   ► app and then hopefully it pays me back

00:07:08 ◼   ► over time and in many ways that's the

00:07:11 ◼   ► kind of the same kind of a thing that if

00:07:13 ◼   ► in the financial world that you would

00:07:15 ◼   ► call something like an annuity which is

00:07:16 ◼   ► where you take ace a large sum of money

00:07:18 ◼   ► and you give it to a bank or an

00:07:20 ◼   ► investment institution and they pay you

00:07:22 ◼   ► a you know a mint amount of money back

00:07:25 ◼   ► each month that you know you're shifting

00:07:29 ◼   ► the risk for them generating that money

00:07:31 ◼   ► onto them and you're getting a steady

00:07:33 ◼   ► stream of income and like that model for

00:07:36 ◼   ► what an application is I find is really

00:07:37 ◼   ► kind of nice because you get the sense

00:07:40 ◼   ► of my goal is just to build up a broad

00:07:43 ◼   ► diversified pool of these little income

00:07:45 ◼   ► streams that each individual one is kind

00:07:48 ◼   ► of slowly decaying over time and my job

00:07:50 ◼   ► you know is to I can increase the or

00:07:55 ◼   ► reduce that ability the degree to which

00:07:57 ◼   ► they're decaying or in some case

00:07:58 ◼   ► hopefully grow them you know by putting

00:08:00 ◼   ► in work but if I don't if I want to go

00:08:03 ◼   ► on vacation or if I get distracted or

00:08:05 ◼   ► things happen my income will very slowly

00:08:08 ◼   ► decay over time but in general we'll

00:08:11 ◼   ► keep going and we'll have a pretty long

00:08:13 ◼   ► runway um and I think this is actually

00:08:16 ◼   ► before under the radar but back when we

00:08:20 ◼   ► were talking about it on my old show

00:08:21 ◼   ► developing perspective where there's a

00:08:23 ◼   ► period of time a couple years ago where

00:08:25 ◼   ► I had to take for a variety of kind of

00:08:27 ◼   ► personal reasons I had to take that six

00:08:30 ◼   ► six or so weeks off of work basically

00:08:33 ◼   ► and it was lovely that during the course

00:08:36 ◼   ► of that my income didn't fall off

00:08:38 ◼   ► dramatically it wasn't like all of a

00:08:41 ◼   ► sudden you if I'd been a consultant that

00:08:42 ◼   ► would have been a really big problem

00:08:43 ◼   ► just suddenly just like not have any

00:08:45 ◼   ► income and so instead like my income

00:08:47 ◼   ► fell and it kind of slowly decayed but I

00:08:49 ◼   ► still had this kind of annuity that was

00:08:51 ◼   ► paying me back

00:08:52 ◼   ► and you know as a and so I love that and

00:08:55 ◼   ► so what I do now is I think I structure

00:08:57 ◼   ► my business around that that's why I

00:08:58 ◼   ► have so many apps that's why I have so

00:09:00 ◼   ► many of these little streams coming in

00:09:01 ◼   ► in the hopes that kind of building that

00:09:03 ◼   ► layer cake that will average out to

00:09:06 ◼   ► something that is you know somewhat

00:09:08 ◼   ► dependable and somewhat reliable I love

00:09:10 ◼   ► the idea that you're like living off of

00:09:12 ◼   ► background noise like like the the

00:09:15 ◼   ► asymptotic tales of all these curses

00:09:18 ◼   ► just like pile out off of them up and

00:09:20 ◼   ► here I have like a background radiation

00:09:22 ◼   ► income essentially yeah I mean that that

00:09:26 ◼   ► is that's kind of wonderful I mean and

00:09:28 ◼   ► that's the thing that is kind of nice

00:09:30 ◼   ► about it though is that it is assumed I

00:09:33 ◼   ► think so often in software development

00:09:35 ◼   ► we kind of get the thing that you hear

00:09:37 ◼   ► most often about is the kind of the big

00:09:40 ◼   ► impressive first month of the sales of

00:09:44 ◼   ► an app or a new update or anything like

00:09:47 ◼   ► where you kind of you have it's easy and

00:09:49 ◼   ► it's not it's not easy but it is more

00:09:52 ◼   ► easy to focus on the that big exciting

00:09:57 ◼   ► part of it where like you do a big

00:09:59 ◼   ► update and everyone loves it and like

00:10:00 ◼   ► sales go up and everything's exciting

00:10:02 ◼   ► but what's more interesting from a lot

00:10:06 ◼   ► more like a lifestyle perspective is the

00:10:08 ◼   ► what happens six months down the road

00:10:11 ◼   ► with that and is there a way to make

00:10:13 ◼   ► that make your living on that noise on

00:10:16 ◼   ► that kind of that slow easy part down

00:10:19 ◼   ► and below where you're not putting

00:10:21 ◼   ► having to put in the effort that you did

00:10:23 ◼   ► upfront and you know just is obviously

00:10:26 ◼   ► you need enough enough either enough

00:10:29 ◼   ► apps or Toofer for them to delay decay

00:10:31 ◼   ► at a slow enough rate that it's still

00:10:34 ◼   ► you know haven't like sums up to a

00:10:36 ◼   ► reasonable living but if you can or at

00:10:41 ◼   ► the very least if you can get close to

00:10:42 ◼   ► that and you know be hoping that you

00:10:44 ◼   ► know you have some big bursts that build

00:10:47 ◼   ► up your reserves and then you have this

00:10:48 ◼   ► this noise then in the middle that you

00:10:50 ◼   ► can live on it it is it is an approach

00:10:53 ◼   ► that seems to have worked a couple times

00:10:55 ◼   ► for me and isn't something that I think

00:10:58 ◼   ► like the math checks out and that's what

00:11:00 ◼   ► I was kind of really excited to have the

00:11:02 ◼   ► opportunity to sit down and like really

00:11:03 ◼   ► dive into that with audiobooks because

00:11:06 ◼   ► now I can kind of prove to myself the

00:11:08 ◼   ► that the experience I've been having of

00:11:10 ◼   ► like this seems to be working you know

00:11:11 ◼   ► for the last couple years like the math

00:11:13 ◼   ► checks out and it kind of follows a

00:11:15 ◼   ► pattern that is somewhat you know

00:11:18 ◼   ► predictable or at least reasonable to

00:11:20 ◼   ► you know to base a livelihood on it's

00:11:23 ◼   ► funny like you know in other areas of

00:11:25 ◼   ► web-based work you know things like

00:11:27 ◼   ► blogs the the idea of like building up

00:11:31 ◼   ► stuff upfront that then has a very long

00:11:34 ◼   ► tail of revenue over time is not a new

00:11:37 ◼   ► idea like in the blogging world you know

00:11:40 ◼   ► you you have straight up blog ads and

00:11:42 ◼   ► things like affiliate links where you

00:11:45 ◼   ► can write a blog post and then you know

00:11:47 ◼   ► it might get a certain number of views

00:11:49 ◼   ► from like the main subscribers you know

00:11:51 ◼   ► active audience that that day or that

00:11:53 ◼   ► week but then over the next ten years it

00:11:57 ◼   ► could be getting search traffic and then

00:11:59 ◼   ► you can be slowly building up more and

00:12:01 ◼   ► more ad money over time from your from

00:12:03 ◼   ► this big back catalogue that you have

00:12:05 ◼   ► and for me like on my site I I never I

00:12:08 ◼   ► never made a ton from the ads but I but

00:12:10 ◼   ► I actually started in the last few years

00:12:12 ◼   ► making a pretty good amount of Amazon

00:12:14 ◼   ► affiliate revenue because I have over

00:12:17 ◼   ► years I have written a pretty good

00:12:20 ◼   ► number of product reviews things like

00:12:22 ◼   ► you know headphones stuff coffee stuff

00:12:24 ◼   ► the baby stuff guides and those have

00:12:27 ◼   ► slowly built up search relevance over

00:12:29 ◼   ► time and you know at first when I was

00:12:33 ◼   ► when I started out with Amazon links

00:12:35 ◼   ► forever ago like Amazon affiliate links

00:12:37 ◼   ► I would make effectively nothing it was

00:12:39 ◼   ► like in maybe like 20 bucks a month for

00:12:41 ◼   ► a while and I stopped looking for a long

00:12:43 ◼   ► time because it was so low I stopped

00:12:45 ◼   ► paying attention and then eventually it

00:12:48 ◼   ► became real money like it became you

00:12:51 ◼   ► know after a few years of doing it and

00:12:53 ◼   ► slowly building up from like 10 20 bucks

00:12:55 ◼   ► a month it eventually became a few

00:12:57 ◼   ► hundred dollars a month and then now

00:12:59 ◼   ► it's like over a thousand dollars a

00:13:01 ◼   ► month and that's all from stuff I wrote

00:13:03 ◼   ► years and years ago for the most part

00:13:05 ◼   ► not a lot of new stuff that just over

00:13:08 ◼   ► time I it was it's kind of like where

00:13:10 ◼   ► each post is one of these little like

00:13:11 ◼   ► decaying asymptotes like you know like

00:13:14 ◼   ► over time I have enough of these and it

00:13:17 ◼   ► does blow up to something substantial

00:13:18 ◼   ► and it's interesting to think of apps

00:13:19 ◼   ► this way

00:13:20 ◼   ► because I don't think we've really I

00:13:22 ◼   ► don't think most of us think of apps

00:13:23 ◼   ► that way I think most of us you know the

00:13:25 ◼   ► idea of doing you know blog posts and

00:13:27 ◼   ► links that way I think we are accustomed

00:13:29 ◼   ► to by now

00:13:30 ◼   ► but the idea of doing apps that way

00:13:32 ◼   ► almost seems like it like wrong or like

00:13:35 ◼   ► you're like you're getting away with

00:13:36 ◼   ► something because yeah I think people

00:13:37 ◼   ► expect that apps need to be the more

00:13:40 ◼   ► high profile launched kind of things and

00:13:43 ◼   ► the you know has to be constantly

00:13:44 ◼   ► maintained over time and have to

00:13:46 ◼   ► constantly be getting updates and new

00:13:48 ◼   ► versions and keeping everything fresh

00:13:49 ◼   ► and new while it's totally ok to let a

00:13:51 ◼   ► blog post sit there for 10 years

00:13:52 ◼   ► unmodified I wonder like is this is this

00:13:57 ◼   ► kind of a temporary thing it's always

00:13:59 ◼   ► gonna be the case I mean what what what

00:14:02 ◼   ► the causes might be of why apps can

00:14:03 ◼   ► behave this way or why they might not

00:14:05 ◼   ► behave this way

00:14:06 ◼   ► like we have this coming fall it's

00:14:08 ◼   ► looking increasingly likely that Apple

00:14:10 ◼   ► is cutting off support for old 32-bit

00:14:13 ◼   ► apps and that's gonna cut off a lot of

00:14:15 ◼   ► people's long tails and just like an

00:14:17 ◼   ► update them but I wonder like it seems

00:14:20 ◼   ► like it seems like this is probably okay

00:14:23 ◼   ► for the long haul overall as a model

00:14:25 ◼   ► like it seems like this is probably

00:14:26 ◼   ► going to keep working because it turns

00:14:29 ◼   ► out that keeping apps up-to-date for the

00:14:32 ◼   ► most part really isn't that important

00:14:34 ◼   ► for whether or not they will have you

00:14:38 ◼   ► know a long tail of success and I think

00:14:41 ◼   ► it speaks to I think there is something

00:14:44 ◼   ► there like it's why the reason why I

00:14:47 ◼   ► thought it'd be a good topic is because

00:14:49 ◼   ► I feel like it also is important to

00:14:50 ◼   ► think through the type of applications

00:14:53 ◼   ► where some an approach like this would

00:14:55 ◼   ► actually work because the reason this

00:14:59 ◼   ► happen you know this approach works for

00:15:00 ◼   ► me is because the types of apps that I

00:15:03 ◼   ► am making by and large don't have large

00:15:06 ◼   ► ongoing costs and expenses and

00:15:10 ◼   ► infrastructures that I have to have in

00:15:14 ◼   ► the background to support them you know

00:15:16 ◼   ► like the I think all the sum total of

00:15:20 ◼   ► the infrastructure I have for audiobooks

00:15:23 ◼   ► is I think it's about a hundred dollars

00:15:26 ◼   ► a year at Linode like I have a little

00:15:29 ◼   ► server that serves thumbnails and a few

00:15:32 ◼   ► other things

00:15:33 ◼   ► but it's essentially nothing in the

00:15:35 ◼   ► scope of the app and so that allows the

00:15:38 ◼   ► you know the the fact that the app isn't

00:15:41 ◼   ► you know it's as its as its revenue

00:15:46 ◼   ► decreases slowly over time you know its

00:15:48 ◼   ► income the expenses that I'm having to

00:15:50 ◼   ► put out for it you know they they become

00:15:52 ◼   ► a higher proportion perhaps of its

00:15:53 ◼   ► income but it they're still so small to

00:15:55 ◼   ► start with that it doesn't really matter

00:15:57 ◼   ► whereas if you had an app like I mean

00:15:59 ◼   ► for so for example for me feed Wrangler

00:16:01 ◼   ► and I imagine for you with overcast to

00:16:03 ◼   ► some degree like if you have an app that

00:16:05 ◼   ► has a bigger server infrastructure you

00:16:07 ◼   ► know that is going to be thousand a

00:16:09 ◼   ► thousand or two thousand dollars a month

00:16:10 ◼   ► in in server costs it starts to become

00:16:12 ◼   ► trickier to do this type of thing or

00:16:15 ◼   ► that slow that that's sort of a slow

00:16:19 ◼   ► decay will very quickly you know cross

00:16:21 ◼   ► over and then you know be losing money

00:16:23 ◼   ► rather than gaining money which is

00:16:25 ◼   ► essentially what happened for me with I

00:16:26 ◼   ► check the weather word you know I had a

00:16:28 ◼   ► weather app which I hadn't done updates

00:16:31 ◼   ► for in a while too but I had to

00:16:32 ◼   ► eventually kill it off because I was

00:16:34 ◼   ► losing money on it because you know

00:16:36 ◼   ► there was this ongoing cost for weather

00:16:38 ◼   ► data providers that wasn't being offset

00:16:41 ◼   ► by it and so I think with software the

00:16:45 ◼   ► key for this to work is the do more that

00:16:47 ◼   ► you can make your the applications that

00:16:49 ◼   ► you're building kind of built in such a

00:16:51 ◼   ► way that they are more like blog posts

00:16:53 ◼   ► or they are more like YouTube videos you

00:16:55 ◼   ► know kind of there's lots of things that

00:16:56 ◼   ► you like you said this isn't a new

00:16:59 ◼   ► concept at all like this is the business

00:17:01 ◼   ► model of most kind of media companies

00:17:05 ◼   ► where you know a media company makes a

00:17:07 ◼   ► show like the you know the they they

00:17:09 ◼   ► make Seinfeld and they put it in

00:17:11 ◼   ► syndication in or they've they put it

00:17:14 ◼   ► they put it out on broadcast TV and they

00:17:15 ◼   ► put it into syndication and they sell

00:17:17 ◼   ► DVDs and it's exactly the same thing

00:17:19 ◼   ► that there's kind of reselling over time

00:17:20 ◼   ► and the degree to which an app can be

00:17:23 ◼   ► that I think is it's something that is

00:17:25 ◼   ► fairly self-contained that is built in

00:17:27 ◼   ► this way that doesn't require a lot of

00:17:30 ◼   ► constant updates and maintenance and you

00:17:33 ◼   ► know a fair enough eventually it'll you

00:17:35 ◼   ► know you'll have to do either update it

00:17:37 ◼   ► or it will stop working like that is I

00:17:39 ◼   ► think software has a higher you know a

00:17:42 ◼   ► higher barrier for that versus you know

00:17:43 ◼   ► just like

00:17:44 ◼   ► you know a point plain text file that

00:17:46 ◼   ► you're putting on the web essentially

00:17:49 ◼   ► but it doesn't have this intrinsic knee

00:17:53 ◼   ► that it has to be updated every few

00:17:55 ◼   ► months and in some ways that's

00:17:56 ◼   ► counterproductive that you know we've

00:17:58 ◼   ► talked about many times that the trap of

00:18:00 ◼   ► over featuring an application and having

00:18:02 ◼   ► the sense that there's this urgency that

00:18:04 ◼   ► it always has to be new and better when

00:18:06 ◼   ► in fact maybe it isn't and you can just

00:18:08 ◼   ► kind of let it go and as long as the you

00:18:11 ◼   ► have a customer base that likes the app

00:18:13 ◼   ► that you shipped whenever you shipped it

00:18:15 ◼   ► you know like people still use

00:18:17 ◼   ► audiobooks that I shipped eighteen

00:18:19 ◼   ► months ago and they use it on a regular

00:18:21 ◼   ► basis and it still works and you know

00:18:24 ◼   ► the updates that I'm doing now are in

00:18:26 ◼   ► some ways unnecessary to it there that I

00:18:29 ◼   ► think it's a good thing in in terms of

00:18:32 ◼   ► trying to put on you know bump up that

00:18:35 ◼   ► that rate a little bit and so it'll you

00:18:37 ◼   ► know sort of start decaying from a

00:18:39 ◼   ► higher point again but if I didn't do

00:18:40 ◼   ► anything my guess is they would just

00:18:42 ◼   ► keep going slowly on you know until at

00:18:44 ◼   ► some point it breaks and who knows maybe

00:18:46 ◼   ► iOS 11 would introduce something that

00:18:48 ◼   ► would force it to be updated which you

00:18:50 ◼   ► know fair enough that's that's read the

00:18:52 ◼   ► reason why it was updated 18 months ago

00:18:54 ◼   ► was because that was what iOS 9 broke

00:18:58 ◼   ► something in it and so I had to update

00:19:00 ◼   ► it and I did and I fixed it and then I

00:19:02 ◼   ► haven't done anything since and those

00:19:05 ◼   ► kinds of maintenance updates are so much

00:19:06 ◼   ► easier and so much lighter weight

00:19:08 ◼   ► they're kind of like the big broad

00:19:09 ◼   ► things that you'd have to do if you kind

00:19:11 ◼   ► of have a perspective of you're trying

00:19:13 ◼   ► to grow grow grow and that's your goal I

00:19:15 ◼   ► mean it really does kind of impact like

00:19:18 ◼   ► how you develop everything I mean if

00:19:20 ◼   ► you're thinking about like how can i how

00:19:22 ◼   ► can I design this app and build this app

00:19:25 ◼   ► in such a way that it will require the

00:19:27 ◼   ► least maintenance over time and be the

00:19:29 ◼   ► least likely to to unexpectedly break in

00:19:33 ◼   ► future OS updates or with future changes

00:19:35 ◼   ► to the landscape you know that that that

00:19:37 ◼   ► affects things like for instance like

00:19:39 ◼   ► running off of a Linode server which

00:19:41 ◼   ► actually they're a sponsor this week

00:19:42 ◼   ► which I'll get to in a minute burning

00:19:43 ◼   ► off of a Linode server that is to me

00:19:46 ◼   ► more future-proof than running off of a

00:19:49 ◼   ► service like parse or some kind of like

00:19:51 ◼   ► managed high-end or higher abstraction

00:19:54 ◼   ► layer or service because that landscape

00:19:56 ◼   ► of those services changes all the time

00:19:58 ◼   ► and if you write an app today on like a

00:20:02 ◼   ► higher-level abstracted service in three

00:20:04 ◼   ► years you might have moved on and you're

00:20:07 ◼   ► just leaving this half in maintenance

00:20:08 ◼   ► mode just and hoping it just collects

00:20:09 ◼   ► money over time but then that service

00:20:11 ◼   ► might shut down or do some kind of force

00:20:14 ◼   ► to change that will break your app and

00:20:16 ◼   ► then you're stuck having to decide it

00:20:18 ◼   ► either will do I just shut this app down

00:20:20 ◼   ► completely is it just done now because

00:20:21 ◼   ► it's not worth the investment to move it

00:20:23 ◼   ► to something else or do I you know now

00:20:26 ◼   ► lose a big chunk of this investment to

00:20:29 ◼   ► in to to move it overlay to it do I

00:20:31 ◼   ► invest a bunch of time in it and lose

00:20:32 ◼   ► money on it for a little while to do

00:20:33 ◼   ► this move and like that's if you build

00:20:36 ◼   ► from the start to to try to build on

00:20:39 ◼   ► like boring stable stuff both on the

00:20:42 ◼   ► server side like just doing Linux

00:20:43 ◼   ► servers and also even in the Affleck if

00:20:45 ◼   ► you just use mostly like vanilla UIKit

00:20:47 ◼   ► and you don't do a lot of like fancy

00:20:49 ◼   ► hacks and and you know things that might

00:20:52 ◼   ► break in future iOS updates that also

00:20:54 ◼   ► will help you just you know make sure

00:20:55 ◼   ► that you can keep that going for a long

00:20:57 ◼   ► time anyway we respond to this week as

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00:22:59 ◼   ► future without much effort from us

00:23:01 ◼   ► yep years and years and years so the

00:23:05 ◼   ► last thing that I think I'll seem like I

00:23:07 ◼   ► would be good to bookend this discussion

00:23:10 ◼   ► with it would also just be to say that

00:23:11 ◼   ► this approach of thinking about an

00:23:14 ◼   ► application as an annuity that you kind

00:23:15 ◼   ► of build and then can kind of leave on

00:23:18 ◼   ► its own for the most part to do lightly

00:23:20 ◼   ► maintain potentially he's probably not

00:23:23 ◼   ► for everybody and I was thinking about

00:23:24 ◼   ► it a little bit this that there's two

00:23:27 ◼   ► groups that I feel like this approach

00:23:28 ◼   ► really wouldn't work for and that is

00:23:31 ◼   ► people who are perfectionists and people

00:23:35 ◼   ► who kind of have the like the growth

00:23:39 ◼   ► mindset in the sense of you kind of have

00:23:41 ◼   ► that vision of the the venture started

00:23:44 ◼   ► kind of company that's trying to be you

00:23:47 ◼   ► know worth a billion dollars and has

00:23:49 ◼   ► that kind of runaway hockey stick magic

00:23:51 ◼   ► fanciness I don't know like those two

00:23:54 ◼   ► groups of people I feel like would not

00:23:56 ◼   ► do well with this kind of approach

00:23:57 ◼   ► because by its nature it is optimizing

00:24:00 ◼   ► for minimizing input and rather than met

00:24:06 ◼   ► trying to maximize output which works

00:24:10 ◼   ► well for me I love like I love that I

00:24:12 ◼   ► can you know sort of once you get a

00:24:15 ◼   ► business to this you know you put in

00:24:17 ◼   ► yours and it takes years to get there

00:24:19 ◼   ► but if you put in years of work with

00:24:20 ◼   ► this kind of mentality you can get to a

00:24:23 ◼   ► point where you're a core business

00:24:26 ◼   ► requires relatively little input and

00:24:29 ◼   ► gives you a steady

00:24:30 ◼   ► you know reliable slightly slightly

00:24:33 ◼   ► decaying overtime but can be bolstered

00:24:35 ◼   ► periodically you know by putting inputs

00:24:37 ◼   ► into the system rather than something

00:24:40 ◼   ► that is growing in a month after month

00:24:43 ◼   ► year after year it's a call we should

00:24:44 ◼   ► need to be doubling every six months or

00:24:45 ◼   ► whatever like this is not a been

00:24:48 ◼   ► approach or a mindset a foreign

00:24:50 ◼   ► application that will lead to that kind

00:24:53 ◼   ► of a result and I think in our next

00:24:55 ◼   ► episode like I said at the beginning of

00:24:56 ◼   ► this one if you're looking to see you

00:24:57 ◼   ► know to sell an application or have to

00:24:59 ◼   ► have a big exit or something like you

00:25:01 ◼   ► might do structure your application in

00:25:02 ◼   ► your approach differently than this but

00:25:04 ◼   ► you know you can work for some people

00:25:06 ◼   ► work for others and I think also if

00:25:08 ◼   ► you're a perfectionist if you're someone

00:25:09 ◼   ► who just wants to keep tinkering and

00:25:11 ◼   ► polishing over and over and over again

00:25:13 ◼   ► and keep working on something until it's

00:25:16 ◼   ► you know it's almost like the the

00:25:19 ◼   ► asymptote that you're approaching is

00:25:21 ◼   ► perfection rather than looking at it the

00:25:24 ◼   ► other way around of kind of like hitting

00:25:25 ◼   ► good enough and then just letting it

00:25:27 ◼   ► slide on to night you know into the

00:25:29 ◼   ► future that's probably not for you

00:25:31 ◼   ► either yeah I mean it's in many ways

00:25:36 ◼   ► this it's kind of like the the

00:25:37 ◼   ► culmination of everything we've been

00:25:39 ◼   ► trying to teach the audience for this

00:25:41 ◼   ► entire podcast of the show so far is

00:25:45 ◼   ► like when you're an indie if you want to

00:25:49 ◼   ► optimize your limited resources you have

00:25:51 ◼   ► not you have no other staff where you

00:25:53 ◼   ► have very little other staff you don't

00:25:56 ◼   ► have a huge amount of cash with VC money

00:25:58 ◼   ► to like build up stuff at a large scale

00:26:01 ◼   ► very quickly you know upfront and so in

00:26:04 ◼   ► order to optimize your limited resources

00:26:07 ◼   ► and especially mostly your limited time

00:26:08 ◼   ► it does help to have these qualities to

00:26:11 ◼   ► to really not be a perfectionist and to

00:26:14 ◼   ► be willing to ship something that is

00:26:17 ◼   ► that is good enough and then to decide

00:26:19 ◼   ► afterwards you know what now I that's

00:26:23 ◼   ► kind of done or at least seems to be

00:26:26 ◼   ► done for a while and now I could move on

00:26:28 ◼   ► and do something else or I can I can

00:26:30 ◼   ► move on to you know feature expansion to

00:26:33 ◼   ► expand into new markets instead of doing

00:26:34 ◼   ► things like perfectly sending down every

00:26:37 ◼   ► every single individual feature to be

00:26:39 ◼   ► totally perfect in a lot of ways the

00:26:44 ◼   ► whole point of the show is to tell

00:26:45 ◼   ► people like if you want to run a

00:26:46 ◼   ► business the way we do and especially

00:26:50 ◼   ► the way you do then this is how you do

00:26:53 ◼   ► it this is like it is possible to make a

00:26:56 ◼   ► living in the App Store but if you do it

00:26:59 ◼   ► in these other ways that might be more

00:27:01 ◼   ► high-profile it's harder and it's less

00:27:04 ◼   ► likely to succeed

00:27:05 ◼   ► where's if you do it this way where

00:27:07 ◼   ► you're really just building up a whole

00:27:08 ◼   ► bunch of you know asymptotes of of

00:27:11 ◼   ► gradual income from from a larger

00:27:14 ◼   ► quantity of apps that that are not

00:27:16 ◼   ► necessarily all perfect but you can get

00:27:18 ◼   ► them all to be good enough and to be

00:27:19 ◼   ► long-term businesses that is actually a

00:27:22 ◼   ► way more likely approach to succeed in

00:27:25 ◼   ► the App Store

00:27:25 ◼   ► then then you know hoping that you are

00:27:29 ◼   ► gonna be the the new you know tank game

00:27:31 ◼   ► that makes a million dollars in a day

00:27:34 ◼   ► yeah okay and I think it's the biggest

00:27:37 ◼   ► like adjective that comes to mind is in

00:27:39 ◼   ► this approach is tolerance and it's like

00:27:43 ◼   ► it's being okay with like living with

00:27:47 ◼   ► letting things go and being like this is

00:27:49 ◼   ► fine I think this is good enough and

00:27:50 ◼   ► being and you know being honest with

00:27:53 ◼   ► yourself about that and having that as

00:27:54 ◼   ► your goal and you know I know that

00:27:56 ◼   ► that's that's not the approach that

00:27:57 ◼   ► everyone feels comfortable with or will

00:27:59 ◼   ► take and I think especially the Apple to

00:28:02 ◼   ► Apple Developer community at least early

00:28:06 ◼   ► on and from imagiknit certainly to some

00:28:08 ◼   ► degree this has a bit of the the

00:28:11 ◼   ► mentality that they kind of in from

00:28:14 ◼   ► Apple and the way they build things

00:28:15 ◼   ► which is not this at all like this is in

00:28:18 ◼   ► no way I think the approach that Apple

00:28:19 ◼   ► builds most of their products that they

00:28:22 ◼   ► take the other extreme of like the IV

00:28:25 ◼   ► highly highly engineered highly polished

00:28:27 ◼   ► approach to something that's a premium

00:28:29 ◼   ► product and like that works and that

00:28:32 ◼   ► model like the premium product market

00:28:35 ◼   ► works clearly you know it works for

00:28:36 ◼   ► Apple it works for Tiffany's you can

00:28:38 ◼   ► think of any number of car car

00:28:40 ◼   ► manufacturers that take that approach

00:28:42 ◼   ► and like that works but I think it

00:28:46 ◼   ► struggles when you're a small company

00:28:48 ◼   ► when you're one person to be viable to

00:28:51 ◼   ► be you know it's like when you're

00:28:52 ◼   ► your goal is to kind of win the lottery

00:28:55 ◼   ► or to have that premium approach so many

00:28:58 ◼   ► things have to go right for you that are

00:29:01 ◼   ► outside of your control but if your goal

00:29:04 ◼   ► is more modest and your goal is to say

00:29:06 ◼   ► you know it's like it's it's much less

00:29:08 ◼   ► it much less scary to say my goal is for

00:29:12 ◼   ► an app you know to make an app that

00:29:13 ◼   ► makes 50 dollars a day like that is much

00:29:17 ◼   ► less scary than trying to make an app

00:29:19 ◼   ► that I could you know that makes tens of

00:29:23 ◼   ► thousands of dollars a day and could

00:29:25 ◼   ► potentially be purchased for millions of

00:29:26 ◼   ► dollars like those are big scary things

00:29:28 ◼   ► making it's much smaller much more

00:29:30 ◼   ► modest I think it's a much more

00:29:32 ◼   ► approachable and reasonable thing for

00:29:33 ◼   ► you know some small developers to take

00:29:35 ◼   ► and you know I can speak from experience

00:29:37 ◼   ► that over time it works thanks listening

00:29:41 ◼   ► everybody tune in next week when we talk

00:29:43 ◼   ► about selling your apps instead of

00:29:44 ◼   ► keeping them forever thanks and we will

00:29:46 ◼   ► talk to you next week

00:29:47 ◼   ► bye