Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm mark

00:00:04 ◼   ► Worman and I'm David Smith under the

00:00:06 ◼   ► radar is never longer than 30 minutes so

00:00:08 ◼   ► let's get started so this week we wanted

00:00:11 ◼   ► to talk about a little bit of a current

00:00:13 ◼   ► event and then brought it into a general

00:00:14 ◼   ► topic the current event is that the the

00:00:17 ◼   ► third-party YouTube client Pro tube was

00:00:20 ◼   ► removed from the App Store Apple

00:00:23 ◼   ► basically forced it out on Google's

00:00:24 ◼   ► request because it was violated in the

00:00:27 ◼   ► YouTube Terms of Service apparently and

00:00:28 ◼   ► I want to talk about some of that and

00:00:31 ◼   ► then brought that into the topic of

00:00:33 ◼   ► generally developing apps that rely on

00:00:36 ◼   ► other big services or that are not quite

00:00:40 ◼   ► they're kind of on the edge of what's

00:00:42 ◼   ► considered okay or what might be allowed

00:00:45 ◼   ► or what might be legal the pro 2 bath

00:00:47 ◼   ► specifically that you know it was a

00:00:50 ◼   ► third-party YouTube app for iOS and it

00:00:53 ◼   ► had great reviews I know I'm pretty sure

00:00:56 ◼   ► Mac stories did a big review on at once

00:00:57 ◼   ► that's one of that's where I heard of it

00:00:59 ◼   ► first

00:01:00 ◼   ► and it had many YouTube Pro user

00:01:03 ◼   ► features many features that people want

00:01:05 ◼   ► out of YouTube app that the main app

00:01:07 ◼   ► either didn't or wouldn't offer you know

00:01:09 ◼   ► different playback you know speeds and

00:01:12 ◼   ► originally it offer downloading a for

00:01:14 ◼   ► offline YouTube forced them to remove

00:01:16 ◼   ► that a long time ago it offered things

00:01:18 ◼   ► like stripping out the audio and just

00:01:20 ◼   ► playing the audio and not having to rely

00:01:21 ◼   ► on video so it could be played in the

00:01:22 ◼   ► background things like that that the

00:01:25 ◼   ► official app didn't offer for a long

00:01:27 ◼   ► time or if ever things like picture and

00:01:29 ◼   ► picture support on the iPad the official

00:01:31 ◼   ► app made you buy YouTube read to do so

00:01:34 ◼   ► you can kind of see why the why the

00:01:36 ◼   ► official app and why YouTube might not

00:01:39 ◼   ► have wanted this to happen but there

00:01:41 ◼   ► there is quite a market to be had in

00:01:44 ◼   ► doing things that people want that like

00:01:46 ◼   ► the man won't let them do pro tube

00:01:49 ◼   ► existed in this market this is something

00:01:51 ◼   ► that I have a little bit of experience

00:01:53 ◼   ► with ultimately though I try to stay

00:01:56 ◼   ► away from this these days a lot of

00:01:58 ◼   ► developers try to build their business

00:02:00 ◼   ► on a third party API or app of some sort

00:02:04 ◼   ► whether it's you know YouTube or a

00:02:06 ◼   ► social network like Twitter clients or

00:02:09 ◼   ► other you know other such things and I

00:02:12 ◼   ► get a lot of requests for

00:02:13 ◼   ► to open up an overcast API so people

00:02:15 ◼   ► could make third-party clients this

00:02:18 ◼   ► there was a brief time in the internet

00:02:20 ◼   ► where where this seemed like an okay

00:02:22 ◼   ► business model I'd say around like 2004

00:02:25 ◼   ► or so where all the web services were

00:02:29 ◼   ► opening up public API is that you could

00:02:31 ◼   ► basically do whatever you wanted with

00:02:33 ◼   ► and access wasn't controlled at all so

00:02:36 ◼   ► anybody could write clients that said

00:02:38 ◼   ► pretty much anything and this way this

00:02:40 ◼   ► was considered like a big part of web

00:02:42 ◼   ► 2.0 for a little while and then

00:02:45 ◼   ► everything started getting locked down

00:02:47 ◼   ► and and what was public became private

00:02:50 ◼   ► what was free became controlled and and

00:02:53 ◼   ► locked out and more recently you know in

00:02:57 ◼   ► more recent apps and services that have

00:02:58 ◼   ► taken off they either haven't had an API

00:03:01 ◼   ► at all or like in the case of Instagram

00:03:04 ◼   ► there's an eight there is an API but

00:03:06 ◼   ► it's extraordinary limited or it might

00:03:08 ◼   ► just be discontinued at any point or you

00:03:11 ◼   ► can't do what you really want to do what

00:03:14 ◼   ► most people would really want to do with

00:03:16 ◼   ► with such an API there's there's a case

00:03:18 ◼   ► to be made there is lots of demand for

00:03:22 ◼   ► apps that live in this gray area that

00:03:25 ◼   ► that do things that a service might not

00:03:28 ◼   ► want or even even if it has a public API

00:03:31 ◼   ► that for the moment you're doing things

00:03:34 ◼   ► that the API allows there is a big

00:03:36 ◼   ► market there because usually if you've

00:03:38 ◼   ► heard of these services they're pretty

00:03:39 ◼   ► big they have a lot of users and

00:03:40 ◼   ► everybody wants you know something to

00:03:42 ◼   ► enhance their favorite service or to

00:03:44 ◼   ► make it easier to use or or whatever

00:03:46 ◼   ► else so it seems like there's there's a

00:03:48 ◼   ► business there or there's there's a

00:03:51 ◼   ► market there rather but trying to build

00:03:54 ◼   ► an entire business in a situation like

00:03:57 ◼   ► that where there is this massive

00:03:59 ◼   ► fundamental dependency that your app has

00:04:01 ◼   ► on someone else's service that I think

00:04:06 ◼   ► is increasingly unwise over time and

00:04:11 ◼   ► that it's not to say that nobody should

00:04:13 ◼   ► ever do it but it certainly should I

00:04:16 ◼   ► think give you pause before you invest

00:04:19 ◼   ► heavily into it so for instance in the

00:04:22 ◼   ► case of Pro to Bleich I'm pretty sure

00:04:24 ◼   ► that was somebody's full-time job

00:04:26 ◼   ► or at least that was like that was their

00:04:28 ◼   ► primary app that they made and and I

00:04:30 ◼   ► believe that I believe the author even

00:04:32 ◼   ► seven blog posted it did pretty well for

00:04:33 ◼   ► a while and it had lots of users I

00:04:36 ◼   ► personally at this point in my life I

00:04:39 ◼   ► cannot imagine having my app be a

00:04:43 ◼   ► hundred percent dependent on someone

00:04:46 ◼   ► else's service now in the app store we

00:04:49 ◼   ► are always 100% depend on Apple like

00:04:51 ◼   ► that that is one dependency we always

00:04:53 ◼   ► have is that well Apple at any time

00:04:55 ◼   ► could kick us out of the App Store but

00:04:57 ◼   ► in general if you align your incentives

00:05:01 ◼   ► with Apple's you know or at least if you

00:05:03 ◼   ► avoid stepping on their feet there's not

00:05:06 ◼   ► much reason for Apple to remove you from

00:05:07 ◼   ► the App Store like if you just have some

00:05:09 ◼   ► regular app why would Apple remove it

00:05:12 ◼   ► like that would that would be a huge PR

00:05:14 ◼   ► risk to them maybe even a legal risk if

00:05:17 ◼   ► you're big enough you know they the fact

00:05:19 ◼   ► is Apple does not want to go around

00:05:20 ◼   ► removing apps for no reason so like I'm

00:05:23 ◼   ► not worried with overcast

00:05:25 ◼   ► I'm not worried that Apple is gonna come

00:05:27 ◼   ► along and all of a sudden say you know

00:05:28 ◼   ► what podcast apps are now illegal again

00:05:30 ◼   ► in the App Store and therefore you have

00:05:33 ◼   ► to leave like that's I I don't stay

00:05:35 ◼   ► awake at night thinking about that

00:05:36 ◼   ► because I think it's incredibly unlikely

00:05:38 ◼   ► because there's not much reason for

00:05:41 ◼   ► Apple to ever do that that and that

00:05:43 ◼   ► would be too much downside for them for

00:05:45 ◼   ► it compared to whatever little upside

00:05:46 ◼   ► there might be but if you're basing your

00:05:49 ◼   ► entire app on something like Twitter or

00:05:51 ◼   ► YouTube or somehow or Facebook you know

00:05:54 ◼   ► some other big service like that you are

00:05:57 ◼   ► building a business in someone else's

00:06:01 ◼   ► property like they can do whatever they

00:06:04 ◼   ► want and they don't have the kind of

00:06:07 ◼   ► neutral incentive collection that Apple

00:06:11 ◼   ► has in that kind of scenario like if

00:06:12 ◼   ► you're building a Twitter app you're

00:06:15 ◼   ► competing with Twitter and their own app

00:06:17 ◼   ► using their own service and they're an

00:06:19 ◼   ► API to do it so they are not going to be

00:06:22 ◼   ► too keen on that and even if one of

00:06:25 ◼   ► these services has an API where they

00:06:27 ◼   ► they say that they're okay with

00:06:28 ◼   ► something one day the next day that

00:06:30 ◼   ► could change the next year that could

00:06:32 ◼   ► change they might have to boost their

00:06:34 ◼   ► metrics and your app might be taking

00:06:36 ◼   ► away their metrics they might get new

00:06:38 ◼   ► leadership that wants to take the

00:06:40 ◼   ► company they

00:06:40 ◼   ► and direction or their investors might

00:06:42 ◼   ► force the company to take a different

00:06:43 ◼   ► direction you know they might need to

00:06:45 ◼   ► make changes to the product and the API

00:06:48 ◼   ► that your app relies on is getting in

00:06:50 ◼   ► the way of that progress there's all

00:06:52 ◼   ► sorts of reasons why most companies and

00:06:56 ◼   ► apps and services don't really need to

00:07:00 ◼   ► let you build apps on them and it

00:07:02 ◼   ► usually is actually against their best

00:07:03 ◼   ► interest these days to do that and

00:07:06 ◼   ► therefore it is unwise to make your

00:07:09 ◼   ► business rely on that and so in the case

00:07:14 ◼   ► of Pro Tube and YouTube it is really a

00:07:17 ◼   ► shame that this great app that had a lot

00:07:21 ◼   ► of big fans and had really been

00:07:24 ◼   ► critically acclaimed it's a shame that

00:07:26 ◼   ► app is now gone because YouTube decided

00:07:29 ◼   ► they had enough and they they made Apple

00:07:31 ◼   ► take it down and by the way I don't

00:07:34 ◼   ► think Apple had any choice in the matter

00:07:35 ◼   ► like that's a simple you know legal

00:07:38 ◼   ► request thing and Apple does not need to

00:07:41 ◼   ► put their neck out for that that's not

00:07:42 ◼   ► worth it for them so this was really you

00:07:45 ◼   ► know if you if you wanna be mad at

00:07:46 ◼   ► somebody about this be mad at YouTube

00:07:47 ◼   ► not Apple but it's it's a shame this app

00:07:52 ◼   ► is gone but at the same time it was

00:07:55 ◼   ► never on solid ground

00:07:56 ◼   ► it was never guaranteed to be just

00:08:00 ◼   ► forever the author of it had no right to

00:08:03 ◼   ► like no guaranteed right that it would

00:08:05 ◼   ► exist forever because it was always from

00:08:08 ◼   ► the beginning built upon YouTube's

00:08:12 ◼   ► property using YouTube's service doing

00:08:15 ◼   ► things that YouTube really probably

00:08:17 ◼   ► didn't want anybody to do and you know

00:08:19 ◼   ► living on the edge and that really

00:08:23 ◼   ► really sucks for the developer that it's

00:08:25 ◼   ► now gone and that that business just

00:08:27 ◼   ► disappeared but on someone well that's

00:08:29 ◼   ► just the risk you take when you live on

00:08:31 ◼   ► the edge like that like when you're in

00:08:32 ◼   ► when you live in these gray areas it

00:08:34 ◼   ► could disappear at any moment

00:08:36 ◼   ► and so I'm not I'm not saying that you

00:08:38 ◼   ► should necessarily never build an app

00:08:41 ◼   ► like that but you should expect that you

00:08:45 ◼   ► know you should go into it knowing that

00:08:46 ◼   ► massive risk knowing that at any time

00:08:49 ◼   ► the ground could shift below you and

00:08:53 ◼   ► your

00:08:54 ◼   ► fire app could just be gone like in this

00:08:57 ◼   ► in the snap of fingers like it's just

00:08:59 ◼   ► it's just gone and so how much do you

00:09:01 ◼   ► want to invest in that how much do you

00:09:03 ◼   ► want to rely on that how much do you

00:09:04 ◼   ► want to plan for the future of his

00:09:05 ◼   ► business when that could happen at any

00:09:07 ◼   ► moment

00:09:07 ◼   ► yeah it's so tough to cuz it's like I

00:09:10 ◼   ► feel at a personal level I feel really

00:09:13 ◼   ► bad for this developer I think it's

00:09:14 ◼   ► Jonas Gessner I think it's his name like

00:09:16 ◼   ► I have been in the position of making an

00:09:20 ◼   ► app having it be successful and then

00:09:22 ◼   ► having it sort of taken out at the store

00:09:24 ◼   ► and thankfully for me that has that was

00:09:27 ◼   ► many years ago when the App Store was a

00:09:29 ◼   ► slightly different place and so like

00:09:31 ◼   ► eventually I was able to get it back in

00:09:32 ◼   ► and so on like that's a long story for

00:09:34 ◼   ► another day but like I have been in this

00:09:35 ◼   ► exact position and I know how this feels

00:09:37 ◼   ► and it feels awful so at a personal

00:09:41 ◼   ► level like it's very very sympathetic to

00:09:43 ◼   ► like how frustrating this meant we must

00:09:46 ◼   ► be but it is yeah I think the thing that

00:09:49 ◼   ► most fundamentally when I think about

00:09:50 ◼   ► these types of apps like there is any

00:09:53 ◼   ► time there was a popular service like

00:09:55 ◼   ► there is a built-in audience and so

00:09:58 ◼   ► building applications to cater to that

00:10:02 ◼   ► audience it makes sense because you're

00:10:04 ◼   ► it's like if you wanted to create your

00:10:07 ◼   ► own video you know video sharing viewing

00:10:11 ◼   ► platform that hosts all the content and

00:10:14 ◼   ► has Pail you know has video creators

00:10:16 ◼   ► publish your videos on your platform etc

00:10:17 ◼   ► like that is completely insurmountable

00:10:20 ◼   ► so piggybacking on top of a big popular

00:10:23 ◼   ► or probably the most popular video

00:10:25 ◼   ► service in the world YouTube makes a lot

00:10:28 ◼   ► of sense but inherent in that is like

00:10:31 ◼   ► what you are in some ways doing is it's

00:10:33 ◼   ► like you're it's you're making money off

00:10:37 ◼   ► their service off their costs like

00:10:39 ◼   ► YouTube is paying all the infrastructure

00:10:41 ◼   ► costs YouTube is paying all of the

00:10:44 ◼   ► bandwidth costs for hosting this video

00:10:46 ◼   ► and then they're not activate on their

00:10:48 ◼   ► own a they don't have a mechanism to

00:10:49 ◼   ► make money from that you know YouTube

00:10:52 ◼   ► makes most of its money from its

00:10:54 ◼   ► advertising or its YouTube red

00:10:57 ◼   ► subscription service both of which are

00:10:59 ◼   ► things that as you know any third-party

00:11:02 ◼   ► client isn't really showing to them I

00:11:04 ◼   ► mean it's theoretically possible that

00:11:06 ◼   ► YouTube could make

00:11:07 ◼   ► mechanism by which you know developers

00:11:10 ◼   ► have pay for that the use of the API but

00:11:12 ◼   ► in general I don't think that's the case

00:11:13 ◼   ► and so you're always in this kind of

00:11:15 ◼   ► tricky position where you're making

00:11:18 ◼   ► money off someone else's work in a

00:11:20 ◼   ► certain way in a very helpful useful way

00:11:23 ◼   ► but it's a really tenuous thing because

00:11:25 ◼   ► that money that you are able to bring in

00:11:27 ◼   ► that business that exists in many ways

00:11:31 ◼   ► belongs to YouTube like and from a like

00:11:34 ◼   ► they're made there they're creating the

00:11:36 ◼   ► opportunity for doing that they're

00:11:38 ◼   ► choosing not to necessarily explore and

00:11:41 ◼   ► exploit that themselves you know they're

00:11:43 ◼   ► not making the YouTube pro app that

00:11:47 ◼   ► would do all of these things and they

00:11:49 ◼   ► may have reasons for doing that and they

00:11:51 ◼   ► could be you know who knows what that

00:11:54 ◼   ► what that is like maybe they don't want

00:11:56 ◼   ► a lot of apps to exist that have you

00:12:01 ◼   ► know background audio playback because

00:12:02 ◼   ► then they get in trouble with music

00:12:05 ◼   ► labels who then people are you know just

00:12:07 ◼   ► using YouTube as a as a CEO music

00:12:10 ◼   ► streaming service and that creates legal

00:12:11 ◼   ► issues or problems for them and so that

00:12:13 ◼   ► they don't want to go down that road and

00:12:14 ◼   ► sometimes they may want to let that

00:12:17 ◼   ► exist like it's some it reminds me in

00:12:21 ◼   ► many ways a lot of sort of the early

00:12:23 ◼   ► days of Twitter where it existed part of

00:12:27 ◼   ► what made it catch and fueled its

00:12:31 ◼   ► initial growth I think was their

00:12:33 ◼   ► openness of their third part of

00:12:35 ◼   ► third-party clients because it allow it

00:12:36 ◼   ► GAE essentially gave them this massive

00:12:39 ◼   ► free developer effort that they didn't

00:12:42 ◼   ► have to directly pay for they just paid

00:12:43 ◼   ► for the infrastructure but there was a

00:12:45 ◼   ► lot of this creativity and innovation

00:12:47 ◼   ► that happened around their platform that

00:12:49 ◼   ► they didn't have to manage and direct

00:12:51 ◼   ► you know they could just sort of let you

00:12:53 ◼   ► know let a thousand flowers bloom and

00:12:55 ◼   ► then ultimately they just they picked

00:12:57 ◼   ► the most successful flower there and

00:12:58 ◼   ► they went after they purchased Tweety

00:13:01 ◼   ► and you know made that the official

00:13:03 ◼   ► client and then now now that that's sort

00:13:06 ◼   ► of that that phase has happened it's you

00:13:09 ◼   ► know increasingly they are shutting that

00:13:12 ◼   ► down and I mean it's there's a few

00:13:14 ◼   ► players who make third-party Twitter

00:13:16 ◼   ► apps now but largely it's kind of this

00:13:18 ◼   ► grandfathered in now

00:13:21 ◼   ► really supported or encouraged kind of

00:13:23 ◼   ► thing and in some ways that's great if

00:13:25 ◼   ► you happened to like that's a very as

00:13:28 ◼   ► the best possible scenario probably that

00:13:30 ◼   ► if you make this kind of dependent

00:13:33 ◼   ► service where ultimately yours kind of

00:13:35 ◼   ► grandfathered in and you can just kind

00:13:37 ◼   ► of exist and you have this mode of

00:13:38 ◼   ► protection around you because no one

00:13:40 ◼   ► else can make these apps anymore and so

00:13:43 ◼   ► you're the only one so like that's

00:13:44 ◼   ► awesome but probably much more likely is

00:13:47 ◼   ► what's happening here where they just

00:13:50 ◼   ► say you know this is not something we

00:13:52 ◼   ► want to do and because you're sort of

00:13:54 ◼   ► operating at our at our pleasure like at

00:13:58 ◼   ► any point we can just turn this off

00:14:00 ◼   ► they'll just turn it off and while at

00:14:04 ◼   ► some point maybe you can find like crazy

00:14:06 ◼   ► technical solutions to work around that

00:14:07 ◼   ► and things where you're like you're not

00:14:10 ◼   ► it's not an official API it's an

00:14:12 ◼   ► unofficial API or you're just like

00:14:13 ◼   ► you're posing as the official client

00:14:15 ◼   ► like there's all kinds of crazy

00:14:16 ◼   ► technical things but ultimately

00:14:18 ◼   ► especially because we're exist in the

00:14:20 ◼   ► app store environment where YouTube can

00:14:22 ◼   ► just go to Apple and say this developer

00:14:25 ◼   ► is essentially is violating our Terms of

00:14:28 ◼   ► Service is doing illicit things we need

00:14:30 ◼   ► you to take them down you'll get taken

00:14:32 ◼   ► down like it's not a world where that

00:14:35 ◼   ► might exist and so it's yeah it's it's

00:14:38 ◼   ► unfortunate that this happens like I

00:14:40 ◼   ► feel really bad for the people involved

00:14:43 ◼   ► in the actual situation both the

00:14:45 ◼   ► developers as well as the users but yeah

00:14:47 ◼   ► it's it's always so tenuous and it's and

00:14:49 ◼   ► it's something that I think we'll get

00:14:52 ◼   ► into this a bit more later on too but

00:14:53 ◼   ► it's these types of opportunities when

00:14:55 ◼   ► they appear they look so enticing

00:14:57 ◼   ► because the audience of the platform is

00:15:00 ◼   ► so big and the user base is so large

00:15:02 ◼   ► that you look at something like like

00:15:04 ◼   ► when I think if these types of things

00:15:05 ◼   ► and I've thought about making YouTube

00:15:07 ◼   ► related apps and content and features

00:15:08 ◼   ► it's like the universe of you know it's

00:15:10 ◼   ► like there's probably under hundreds of

00:15:13 ◼   ► millions if not billions of people who

00:15:16 ◼   ► use YouTube and you start to play that

00:15:18 ◼   ► game of like well what if I could only

00:15:19 ◼   ► get like 1/10 of 1% of those people to

00:15:22 ◼   ► download my app then that's huge and

00:15:23 ◼   ► it's like well if you did get to do that

00:15:27 ◼   ► if you did have an app that had a lot

00:15:29 ◼   ► had a lot of success in almost it almost

00:15:32 ◼   ► necessarily you will bigger you

00:15:34 ◼   ► the more trouble you will have and as a

00:15:37 ◼   ► business that sound it's like that

00:15:40 ◼   ► sounds kind of fundamentally problematic

00:15:41 ◼   ► that most of us when we're setting out

00:15:44 ◼   ► to build something you know we wanted to

00:15:46 ◼   ► have you have the ability to grow

00:15:48 ◼   ► steadily over time whereas in a

00:15:51 ◼   ► situation like with almost all these

00:15:52 ◼   ► types of apps the bigger your app gets

00:15:54 ◼   ► the more likely it is that the service

00:15:58 ◼   ► that you're reliant on is either is

00:16:00 ◼   ► going to become suspicious or you know

00:16:02 ◼   ► concerned about you and maybe on the

00:16:04 ◼   ► upside eventually that would lead to

00:16:05 ◼   ► sound like an acquisition which is like

00:16:07 ◼   ► I guess the best version of this you

00:16:09 ◼   ► know like if YouTube had come along and

00:16:11 ◼   ► said hey we're gonna buy you know we're

00:16:13 ◼   ► gonna kind of a queue high IQ higher the

00:16:15 ◼   ► Pro Tube app and you know get gained

00:16:18 ◼   ► from the expertise and the experience of

00:16:20 ◼   ► this developer like that would be the

00:16:22 ◼   ► happy ending but you know there's no

00:16:24 ◼   ► guarantees if a happy ending in

00:16:25 ◼   ► something like this also keep in mind

00:16:27 ◼   ► like if even even in that scenario where

00:16:30 ◼   ► they equi hi are you think about the

00:16:33 ◼   ► leverage that they have that situation

00:16:34 ◼   ► versus the leverage you have in a

00:16:36 ◼   ► situation yeah they could bring you in

00:16:37 ◼   ► the room and say look you can come work

00:16:39 ◼   ► for us for whatever amount of money

00:16:41 ◼   ► we're gonna offer you which probably

00:16:42 ◼   ► doesn't need to be that much because of

00:16:44 ◼   ► what we're about to say or we're gonna

00:16:46 ◼   ► shut you down

00:16:47 ◼   ► that's it like we're gonna cut off your

00:16:48 ◼   ► API access or you can come work for us

00:16:49 ◼   ► like you don't have a lot of leverage in

00:16:52 ◼   ► that negotiation they have all the power

00:16:53 ◼   ► so that even that is not a great outcome

00:16:56 ◼   ► especially to if you do implemented

00:16:59 ◼   ► features that aren't things that are

00:17:02 ◼   ► technically difficult in this editing

00:17:05 ◼   ► like like Twitter bought Tweety because

00:17:08 ◼   ► Lauren bricked her is a deus and was

00:17:11 ◼   ► doing things like he invented

00:17:13 ◼   ► pull-to-refresh and he was doing crazy

00:17:15 ◼   ► iOS performance stuff in a way that at

00:17:17 ◼   ► the time very few people could touch and

00:17:20 ◼   ► so like his leverage wasn't that he was

00:17:23 ◼   ► doing things that he was he was doing

00:17:25 ◼   ► things that Twitter just couldn't

00:17:26 ◼   ► recreate whereas in you know in this

00:17:29 ◼   ► case it becomes much trickier and your

00:17:31 ◼   ► position is would definitely be a much

00:17:32 ◼   ► weaker where it's like it's things that

00:17:34 ◼   ► the content provider or the platform

00:17:36 ◼   ► owner is consciously choosing not to

00:17:39 ◼   ► implement your leverage goes down

00:17:42 ◼   ► dramatically yeah and I think one of the

00:17:45 ◼   ► reasons I think we see a lot of younger

00:17:48 ◼   ► developer

00:17:48 ◼   ► falling into the trap of assuming that

00:17:51 ◼   ► they can build an app on this kind of

00:17:53 ◼   ► thing and and that they'll be okay and

00:17:55 ◼   ► that or that will be okay and they you

00:17:58 ◼   ► know some of that just comes with

00:17:58 ◼   ► experience of you know whether you trust

00:18:01 ◼   ► that kind of stuff or not but also you

00:18:03 ◼   ► know I feel like humor developers have

00:18:05 ◼   ► I'm sorry this is insulting I don't mean

00:18:07 ◼   ► it to be there they don't often

00:18:10 ◼   ► distinguish well between what's a public

00:18:12 ◼   ► good on the internet and what's a

00:18:13 ◼   ► private service or or you make

00:18:15 ◼   ► assumptions about about the private

00:18:17 ◼   ► services that they are maybe more

00:18:19 ◼   ► publicly available or more publicly open

00:18:22 ◼   ► or that you have more rights than you

00:18:24 ◼   ► actually have and like this is one of

00:18:27 ◼   ► the things one of the reasons why all US

00:18:29 ◼   ► olds talk about things like the open web

00:18:31 ◼   ► and open protocols and open formats

00:18:35 ◼   ► decentralization because so much of the

00:18:39 ◼   ► internet now is privatized so much of

00:18:42 ◼   ► usage of metrics of time spent is

00:18:46 ◼   ► happening under the complete control of

00:18:49 ◼   ► one of a handful of web giants that

00:18:53 ◼   ► there's almost nothing public left that

00:18:56 ◼   ► a lot of people think about and use all

00:18:58 ◼   ► the time and think about every day like

00:19:00 ◼   ► almost all usages in Facebook or you

00:19:04 ◼   ► know Google does all the searches and

00:19:06 ◼   ► YouTube does all the video and so if you

00:19:09 ◼   ► actually want to you know try to build

00:19:12 ◼   ► something lasting build it on open

00:19:14 ◼   ► platforms and open standards and in open

00:19:16 ◼   ► places where you can be the business you

00:19:18 ◼   ► can be the service that's in control

00:19:20 ◼   ► this is one of the reasons I like

00:19:22 ◼   ► podcasting so much because Apple has

00:19:24 ◼   ► some role in it but not actually a very

00:19:26 ◼   ► major one anymore and so my main

00:19:28 ◼   ► dependency an apple is literally just

00:19:29 ◼   ► the App Store like if the iTunes API

00:19:31 ◼   ► shut down tomorrow I'd be totally fine

00:19:34 ◼   ► so when you're choosing what to do build

00:19:39 ◼   ► in open spaces anyway speaking of spaces

00:19:42 ◼   ► that transition episodes brought to you

00:19:46 ◼   ► by Eero never think about Wi-Fi again

00:19:48 ◼   ► Eero has created the dream Wi-Fi set up

00:19:51 ◼   ► a fast reliable connection throughout

00:19:53 ◼   ► your house and all of its open spaces

00:19:55 ◼   ► and now is the best time to get on board

00:19:57 ◼   ► with arrow they've just released their

00:19:58 ◼   ► new super slick second-generation

00:20:00 ◼   ► devices it is a tri-band mom

00:20:02 ◼   ► along with the new ero beacon this

00:20:05 ◼   ► allows you to build a Wi-Fi system that

00:20:07 ◼   ► was perfectly tailored to your home the

00:20:09 ◼   ► second-generation e'er also includes a

00:20:10 ◼   ► third five gigahertz radio making it

00:20:12 ◼   ► twice as fast as before so it's an

00:20:15 ◼   ► amazing little thing there's these nice

00:20:17 ◼   ► little white devices they are just

00:20:19 ◼   ► beautiful they're small and they are

00:20:21 ◼   ► incredibly easy to set up so you just

00:20:24 ◼   ► plug one into your internet connection

00:20:26 ◼   ► and then you plug in the beacons

00:20:28 ◼   ► anywhere else in your house and then

00:20:30 ◼   ► they act as basically repeaters but they

00:20:32 ◼   ► communicate with themselves through this

00:20:34 ◼   ► backhaul mesh network that is way faster

00:20:37 ◼   ► that in traditional Wi-Fi repeater has

00:20:39 ◼   ► ever been the performance on these

00:20:41 ◼   ► things is amazing and you can even wire

00:20:43 ◼   ► the remote ones if you want to get even

00:20:45 ◼   ► faster performance so it really is it is

00:20:47 ◼   ► by far the easiest multi access point

00:20:51 ◼   ► Wi-Fi setup heck the easiest Wi-Fi setup

00:20:54 ◼   ► period that I've ever seen you download

00:20:57 ◼   ► their app it's all super easy it walks

00:20:58 ◼   ► you through it and then this covers your

00:21:00 ◼   ► house in Wi-Fi through multiple access

00:21:03 ◼   ► points it is wonderful it's easy to

00:21:06 ◼   ► manage

00:21:06 ◼   ► highly recommended then their customer

00:21:08 ◼   ► support is amazing if you need any help

00:21:09 ◼   ► so the new era system starts at just 399

00:21:13 ◼   ► for one second generation base station

00:21:15 ◼   ► and two beacons and that's everything

00:21:17 ◼   ► most houses will need if you want more

00:21:20 ◼   ► beacons to expand your range you can do

00:21:21 ◼   ► that too but most people won't need to

00:21:23 ◼   ► the three of them covers pretty much

00:21:24 ◼   ► every house so listeners of the show can

00:21:27 ◼   ► get free overnight shipping to u.s. or

00:21:29 ◼   ► Canada when you head to eurocom that's

00:21:31 ◼   ► eer Oh calm and use the promo code radar

00:21:35 ◼   ► that's eurocom promo code radar for free

00:21:38 ◼   ► overnight shipping thank you to ero for

00:21:40 ◼   ► their support of this show so related to

00:21:44 ◼   ► this type of this discussion of pro to

00:21:47 ◼   ► bene relying on external services I

00:21:49 ◼   ► think interesting place to wrap up might

00:21:52 ◼   ► be to also talk a little bit about

00:21:54 ◼   ► exploiting developer opportunities in

00:21:57 ◼   ► this kind of seeing seeing an

00:21:59 ◼   ► opportunity seeing a niche that exists

00:22:03 ◼   ► and then sort of trying to build an app

00:22:05 ◼   ► inside of that because often I feel like

00:22:08 ◼   ► that is the especially as a smaller

00:22:11 ◼   ► developer one minute one one two three

00:22:13 ◼   ► paper person team whatever your

00:22:16 ◼   ► we are best able to thrive and flourish

00:22:19 ◼   ► in these kind of small spaces that may

00:22:22 ◼   ► be too small for a larger company to

00:22:25 ◼   ► want to go after or maybe you have the

00:22:30 ◼   ► ability to get in there right away like

00:22:32 ◼   ► I've taken advantage of this many times

00:22:34 ◼   ► myself where a new API you know is

00:22:37 ◼   ► introduced in iOS or watch OS and I

00:22:40 ◼   ► immediately jump on it and kind of dive

00:22:42 ◼   ► in there to take advantage of it and

00:22:46 ◼   ► it's interesting because I feel like in

00:22:48 ◼   ► some ways this is what this app was

00:22:52 ◼   ► doing but in others it's not and I think

00:22:56 ◼   ► maybe it's interesting to you to kind of

00:22:57 ◼   ► differentiate between the types of

00:22:58 ◼   ► opportunities that are likely going to

00:23:02 ◼   ► be sustainable down the road and those

00:23:05 ◼   ► these types of opportunities that are

00:23:07 ◼   ► tenuous and exist sort of if somewhat

00:23:11 ◼   ► more transiently and it isn't

00:23:14 ◼   ► necessarily that one you should only

00:23:15 ◼   ► ever pursue the first and ignore the

00:23:17 ◼   ► second because there are certainly

00:23:19 ◼   ► opportunities I'm sure where it's like

00:23:21 ◼   ► making an app that is useful or exists

00:23:24 ◼   ► you know solely for a few weeks or a few

00:23:27 ◼   ► months for you could potentially be

00:23:29 ◼   ► worth doing I mean there's been numerous

00:23:33 ◼   ► of these I think they like that they

00:23:34 ◼   ► come up in the App Store like when the

00:23:36 ◼   ► ipods first came out there's a whole

00:23:38 ◼   ► there's a couple of apps that day where

00:23:39 ◼   ► ipod found finders before Apple

00:23:42 ◼   ► introduced to find my iPod into the find

00:23:44 ◼   ► my friends app err pause yeah sorry

00:23:48 ◼   ► sorry the air pause and that those like

00:23:51 ◼   ► find my earpods apps like exists in this

00:23:54 ◼   ► kind of tenuous space that I don't I

00:23:56 ◼   ► mean ultimately I think a lot of them

00:23:57 ◼   ► were pulled from the App Store so like

00:23:59 ◼   ► maybe they didn't actually end up being

00:24:00 ◼   ► financially viable in that sense but

00:24:02 ◼   ► like that kind of an opportunity where

00:24:04 ◼   ► it's like here's this thing that exists

00:24:05 ◼   ► it may have a very short-lived lifespan

00:24:09 ◼   ► but then like you can go in you can take

00:24:12 ◼   ► advantage of it you potentially don't

00:24:14 ◼   ► put in a massive amount of development

00:24:15 ◼   ► resources into it and then you move on

00:24:17 ◼   ► like that's interesting and that's

00:24:19 ◼   ► potentially use useful in a lot of cases

00:24:23 ◼   ► versus I think it's it's keeping in mind

00:24:25 ◼   ► that there are other opportunities that

00:24:27 ◼   ► are just these you know building an app

00:24:28 ◼   ► that

00:24:29 ◼   ► is filling filling a filling a space

00:24:32 ◼   ► that is too small for someone s a penis

00:24:36 ◼   ► it's too small for a big competitor to

00:24:38 ◼   ► come in and try and compete with you

00:24:40 ◼   ► with and just so you know surviving in

00:24:43 ◼   ► there and taking advantage of that space

00:24:44 ◼   ► like I mean I think of this some of

00:24:47 ◼   ► these like that and for some reason I

00:24:49 ◼   ► think I'm on the Mac a lot more about

00:24:51 ◼   ► these but there's so many of these like

00:24:52 ◼   ► little tools these little utilities that

00:24:55 ◼   ► exist to solve a little annoyance or fix

00:24:59 ◼   ► something that's just you know doing

00:25:01 ◼   ► window management I mean is a common

00:25:03 ◼   ► example of something on the Mac maybe

00:25:05 ◼   ► where like you're solving this little

00:25:06 ◼   ► problem that isn't you know that

00:25:09 ◼   ► theoretically Apple could one day come

00:25:10 ◼   ► along and Sherlock you and usually that

00:25:12 ◼   ► is the like the big risk for these kinds

00:25:14 ◼   ► of apps worse you know you have some

00:25:16 ◼   ► some bigger person will eventually come

00:25:18 ◼   ► along and then slurp up the that space

00:25:20 ◼   ► but you can often this you know we have

00:25:22 ◼   ► a sustainable business for a long time

00:25:24 ◼   ► or you can be in these kind of in this

00:25:27 ◼   ► kind of a situation where maybe other

00:25:29 ◼   ► people aren't going after it the

00:25:31 ◼   ► opportunity because it's kind of dubious

00:25:33 ◼   ► or kind of tenuous as to whether it's

00:25:35 ◼   ► something that's allowed but I don't

00:25:38 ◼   ► know other things is worth just

00:25:40 ◼   ► considering and probably the overall

00:25:42 ◼   ► lesson is before you it's so easy as a

00:25:45 ◼   ► developer I think choose to start down

00:25:47 ◼   ► the road of development when you see an

00:25:49 ◼   ► opportunity to like that to just go in

00:25:51 ◼   ► and do it and worry about like you see

00:25:53 ◼   ► this technical opportunity and you go

00:25:55 ◼   ► and try and solve it but it's probably

00:25:57 ◼   ► the important thing is or that I've

00:25:59 ◼   ► learned from my experience is to take

00:26:00 ◼   ► just like two or three steps back and be

00:26:02 ◼   ► like what is this likely going to look

00:26:04 ◼   ► like down the road is this an app that

00:26:07 ◼   ► I'm going to want to maintain is this an

00:26:10 ◼   ► app that I'm that I think would make a

00:26:11 ◼   ► sustainable business do I think what is

00:26:13 ◼   ► the likelihood of this being sure locked

00:26:16 ◼   ► down the road I mean actually this very

00:26:18 ◼   ► summer like I had a couple of ideas for

00:26:20 ◼   ► apps related to iPad multitasking and

00:26:23 ◼   ► some of the new changes there and I

00:26:25 ◼   ► think ultimately I've decided I'm not

00:26:26 ◼   ► going to ultimately ship them because

00:26:28 ◼   ► the more I looked at it and the more I

00:26:30 ◼   ► decided like I'm solving this very niche

00:26:34 ◼   ► narrow like problem that I think will

00:26:37 ◼   ► exist for at most a year probably less

00:26:40 ◼   ► you know that I think these there's

00:26:42 ◼   ► these little

00:26:43 ◼   ► Edge's that Apple will likely sand down

00:26:45 ◼   ► over the next couple of point releases

00:26:47 ◼   ► and do I really want to go through the

00:26:50 ◼   ► effort of building out a fully featured

00:26:52 ◼   ► app and then putting it out and

00:26:54 ◼   ► supporting it and maintaining it and

00:26:55 ◼   ► having this sort of this expectation of

00:26:58 ◼   ► death then that if Apple solves it that

00:27:00 ◼   ► half solves it or makes it worse then

00:27:02 ◼   ► like it's becomes this thing that I need

00:27:04 ◼   ► to manage and I just decided you know

00:27:05 ◼   ► it's probably not worth it and I think

00:27:07 ◼   ► doing that exercise is something I

00:27:09 ◼   ► didn't used to do and so I just wanted

00:27:11 ◼   ► to mention it as something to encourage

00:27:13 ◼   ► everyone else to whenever you see these

00:27:15 ◼   ► little opportunities make sure we're

00:27:17 ◼   ► being thoughtful about if it's a if it's

00:27:19 ◼   ► a good if it's a good thing that is

00:27:22 ◼   ► going to come back to benefit us in the

00:27:24 ◼   ► future and if it's not go into it with

00:27:26 ◼   ► eyes open saying like I'm making making

00:27:27 ◼   ► this app that I expect to sell for a few

00:27:30 ◼   ► weeks or a few months and that's okay

00:27:32 ◼   ► and if it you know had if it was a big

00:27:34 ◼   ► big flash and a big fall that's fine I

00:27:36 ◼   ► mean I have failed to learn this less

00:27:39 ◼   ► than so many times I mean I made a

00:27:41 ◼   ► magazine then relighted it in like

00:27:43 ◼   ► running a magazine I made an ad blocker

00:27:45 ◼   ► then realized it's a terrible business I

00:27:46 ◼   ► didn't want to be in that made that

00:27:50 ◼   ► mistake so in terms of like being on you

00:27:52 ◼   ► and especially like in the case of the

00:27:53 ◼   ► ad blocker and even to some degree

00:27:54 ◼   ► Instapaper when you are kind of like

00:27:57 ◼   ► living on the edge of what might be

00:28:00 ◼   ► considered legal with copyright or

00:28:02 ◼   ► things like copyright there is a huge

00:28:05 ◼   ► market of people who want that kind of

00:28:08 ◼   ► thing and you can build a business there

00:28:10 ◼   ► but it's like building a business on the

00:28:12 ◼   ► edge of volcano like it is a very very

00:28:16 ◼   ► high risk and you never know like what

00:28:18 ◼   ► could blow up in your face and really

00:28:20 ◼   ► cause problems for you I mean people who

00:28:22 ◼   ► made a blockers we're getting sued like

00:28:24 ◼   ► not that long after I stopped making in

00:28:27 ◼   ► and I just narrowly dodged that risk so

00:28:30 ◼   ► again it's like there are there's a

00:28:32 ◼   ► business to be had here but do you want

00:28:35 ◼   ► that business are you willing to accept

00:28:37 ◼   ► the risks of that and how long is that

00:28:39 ◼   ► going to be a business and and how much

00:28:41 ◼   ► that is in your control yeah and I think

00:28:43 ◼   ► - it's the maturity of being okay with

00:28:47 ◼   ► missing out is ultimately what I think

00:28:50 ◼   ► it came down for that like I had to grow

00:28:52 ◼   ► as a person to the point that I could

00:28:53 ◼   ► say

00:28:54 ◼   ► if I don't do this and someone else does

00:28:57 ◼   ► I need to be okay with the fact that

00:28:59 ◼   ► they may have a good run or it could it

00:29:02 ◼   ► be successful and not play they like

00:29:03 ◼   ► what if I had done it if only I had done

00:29:05 ◼   ► it kind of a game because ultimately

00:29:07 ◼   ► that's just going to drive you crazy

00:29:08 ◼   ► like you have to be like make an

00:29:10 ◼   ► informed decision give it some thought

00:29:12 ◼   ► and then just be able to be like you

00:29:13 ◼   ► know like that was the choice I made and

00:29:16 ◼   ► live with that rather than just sort of

00:29:17 ◼   ► making these choices out of just the

00:29:19 ◼   ► fear of potentially missing out down the

00:29:21 ◼   ► road like that's no way to to build a

00:29:24 ◼   ► business or support or made do to make

00:29:25 ◼   ► choices in ways that it's going to be

00:29:26 ◼   ► you know sustainable for your look your

00:29:28 ◼   ► your mental health thanks for listening

00:29:32 ◼   ► everybody and we'll talk to you next

00:29:33 ◼   ► week bye