41: The Homer


00:00:04   this is hypercritical weekly talkshow [TS]

00:00:06   ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:09   the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:10   technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

00:00:12   so perfect that it can't be obliterated [TS]

00:00:16   by my co-host John siracusa I'm Dan [TS]

00:00:19   Benjamin [TS]

00:00:20   today is November 4th 2011 this is [TS]

00:00:23   episode number 41 we would like to say a [TS]

00:00:26   quick thanks to bare-bones calm the [TS]

00:00:28   makers of BBEdit and also to MailChimp [TS]

00:00:31   calm for making this show possible we [TS]

00:00:34   will tell you more about them as the [TS]

00:00:35   show progresses we also want to say that [TS]

00:00:37   bandwidth this episode is provided by [TS]

00:00:39   reinvigorate net real-time web stats and [TS]

00:00:41   heat maps simple affordable and awesome [TS]

00:00:45   you need promo code 5x5 and you'll get [TS]

00:00:47   10% off for the life of your account at [TS]

00:00:50   reinvigorate net hey john siracusa hey [TS]

00:00:57   dan benjamin we have a guest we do first [TS]

00:01:00   for the show remember yeah who is it it [TS]

00:01:04   is Jeff Atwood I've heard that name how [TS]

00:01:07   can we describe Jeff Atwood creator of [TS]

00:01:09   coding horror very practical programming [TS]

00:01:11   blog from way back when but more widely [TS]

00:01:14   known today as what or do you call your [TS]

00:01:16   co-founder of Stack Overflow is that the [TS]

00:01:20   correct title Jeff mm-hm [TS]

00:01:22   it is sure co-founder of stack overflow [TS]

00:01:24   the Stack Exchange network of Q&A [TS]

00:01:27   websites if you're a programmer and you [TS]

00:01:29   have a question about how to do [TS]

00:01:31   something Stack Overflow calm is the [TS]

00:01:33   site for you and they have expanded they [TS]

00:01:34   now have an empire the Stack Exchange [TS]

00:01:36   network of Q&A sites about I don't know [TS]

00:01:39   how many topics you have 50 something [TS]

00:01:40   huge number of topics everything from [TS]

00:01:43   cooking to video games to bicycling to [TS]

00:01:46   do-it-yourself home improvement he does [TS]

00:01:49   this with Joel Spolsky who is still too [TS]

00:01:51   big to come in the show but we'll get [TS]

00:01:52   him eventually someday and we asked Jeff [TS]

00:01:57   Oh Jeff is very much a man of the people [TS]

00:02:00   yes he is he is he's very very into [TS]

00:02:03   doing things out in the open and this [TS]

00:02:05   would qualify as one of those things oh [TS]

00:02:07   and uh he was on the pipeline I believe [TS]

00:02:09   the pipeline interview show that Dan [TS]

00:02:11   does so if you want to learn [TS]

00:02:13   and get extensive background on him and [TS]

00:02:17   his business and his interest go listen [TS]

00:02:19   to the episode of the pipeline in fact [TS]

00:02:20   you may want to pause this now go find [TS]

00:02:23   that episode of the pipeline downloaded [TS]

00:02:24   I'll put it in the show notes and then [TS]

00:02:26   resume when you when you understand who [TS]

00:02:28   Jeff isn't where he's coming from I've [TS]

00:02:29   already got it in the show notes it was [TS]

00:02:31   episode number 38 which was recorded [TS]

00:02:33   January 11th of 2011 [TS]

00:02:36   oh I don't actually know I probably [TS]

00:02:38   wasn't recorded January 11th but it was [TS]

00:02:40   released January 11th so welcome back [TS]

00:02:43   Jeff yeah thank you and that was a good [TS]

00:02:47   show I've gotten compliments on the show [TS]

00:02:48   people really liked that show it showed [TS]

00:02:50   that you were you were a human being and [TS]

00:02:52   not just a fearful shocked looking [TS]

00:02:55   avatar that's right that's right and and [TS]

00:02:58   hopefully won't be recapping that here [TS]

00:03:00   when us is going to really definitely [TS]

00:03:02   not be a kiss that's why I suggested [TS]

00:03:04   people do so the reason I wanted to have [TS]

00:03:05   Jeff on is because he was kind enough to [TS]

00:03:08   have me on his podcast the Stack [TS]

00:03:10   Exchange podcast with him and Joel and a [TS]

00:03:12   couple other cast of characters who come [TS]

00:03:14   in and out and that's mostly about [TS]

00:03:16   talking about the Stack Exchange Network [TS]

00:03:17   and they invite on different people who [TS]

00:03:20   are involved in the stacking string that [TS]

00:03:22   constrains network in some way or who [TS]

00:03:24   are a longtime fans of it like I am and [TS]

00:03:26   just interesting people in general you [TS]

00:03:27   know yes so I was on there and at the [TS]

00:03:31   end of that podcast I think Joel and [TS]

00:03:35   Jeff and I got into a tiny little [TS]

00:03:38   microcosm of the typical mac/pc [TS]

00:03:40   arguments that were had on the internet [TS]

00:03:42   and in decades past and I thought that [TS]

00:03:45   was fun and then we were you know poking [TS]

00:03:47   each other on Twitter about Apple and [TS]

00:03:50   related topics and I figured a lot of [TS]

00:03:52   other people tells it to take it [TS]

00:03:54   somewhere else so we're taking it to a [TS]

00:03:55   podcast taking it to my podcast where we [TS]

00:03:57   have enough room to stretch out and have [TS]

00:04:00   a good old fashioned Mac PC Apple is the [TS]

00:04:04   devil apples great argument and [TS]

00:04:07   hopefully in a different tone a [TS]

00:04:08   different slightly different take than [TS]

00:04:09   you don't know something gonna be a [TS]

00:04:11   little more thoughtful hopefully not [TS]

00:04:13   just knee-jerk Apple versus PC cuz I [TS]

00:04:16   don't really I'm not really interested [TS]

00:04:17   in that but I think there is some nuance [TS]

00:04:19   to it yeah well so can head I was going [TS]

00:04:22   to say that like I mean this is all in [TS]

00:04:23   fun on Twitter and everything but it two [TS]

00:04:26   things one when I [TS]

00:04:27   when I thought of having a podcast of my [TS]

00:04:29   own I wanted to have a podcast where I [TS]

00:04:31   would get people who disagreed with me [TS]

00:04:33   on the podcast and then I would argue [TS]

00:04:35   with them because I like arguing with [TS]

00:04:36   people but I also understood that a lot [TS]

00:04:38   of people don't like to hear other [TS]

00:04:39   people argue they find they find it [TS]

00:04:40   irritating and they don't like it when [TS]

00:04:42   people are disagreeable they want [TS]

00:04:43   information to be conveyed and they want [TS]

00:04:45   to be entertained but they don't want to [TS]

00:04:46   just hear a bunch of people bickering so [TS]

00:04:47   there's some people who like that and [TS]

00:04:48   some people who don't so I've had to [TS]

00:04:50   balance that Dan disagrees with me [TS]

00:04:51   enough to give enough flavor in that [TS]

00:04:53   regard but the second thing I want to [TS]

00:04:54   say is that my prediction before we even [TS]

00:04:56   begin this is that Jeff and I probably [TS]

00:04:58   agree on almost everything and it just [TS]

00:05:00   comes down to like how we say it and [TS]

00:05:03   where we insert the snark and maybe our [TS]

00:05:06   backgrounds but when it comes down to [TS]

00:05:08   the actual individual points I think we [TS]

00:05:10   will find we are mostly in violent [TS]

00:05:12   agreement even though we may sound very [TS]

00:05:14   different when we talk about this topic [TS]

00:05:15   and before we start that I one thing I [TS]

00:05:17   wanted to bring up if it's okay with you [TS]

00:05:19   is you had mentioned and I think you [TS]

00:05:21   would present what I remember but I [TS]

00:05:22   remember coming from you several times [TS]

00:05:24   about how difficult it is to watch shows [TS]

00:05:28   television and movie where children are [TS]

00:05:32   in danger like once you have a child [TS]

00:05:33   this was a good pose they did on my my [TS]

00:05:37   personal I understand that like III [TS]

00:05:39   think I'm trying to remove the history [TS]

00:05:41   but it there's it's so true it's so true [TS]

00:05:44   that like once you have a kid it just [TS]

00:05:46   unlocks some door in you we're watching [TS]

00:05:50   these movies and stuff where children or [TS]

00:05:51   danger becomes really painful like you [TS]

00:05:54   really internalize that like what would [TS]

00:05:56   happen like the most horrible thing you [TS]

00:05:58   can think of as something happening to [TS]

00:05:59   your child and then sort of once that [TS]

00:06:02   door has been unlocked in you man it [TS]

00:06:04   really changes the way you look at those [TS]

00:06:06   shows because I think I was very [TS]

00:06:07   skeptical as like oh whatever you know [TS]

00:06:09   people are very sensitive about this [TS]

00:06:10   like that doesn't make sense and then it [TS]

00:06:13   sure enough I believe John was right [TS]

00:06:15   like now when I watch stuff like that I [TS]

00:06:17   like I cringe really is your ebrill at [TS]

00:06:22   all like you're your rational brain is [TS]

00:06:23   like yeah whatever no big deal is not [TS]

00:06:25   like you know like distinguish between [TS]

00:06:26   things that make you upset or nervous [TS]

00:06:30   cerebrally like for example of people [TS]

00:06:32   who don't like public speaking like me [TS]

00:06:34   for example yes the thought of going up [TS]

00:06:36   in front of the room and speaking in [TS]

00:06:37   public you know it's like oh boy I'm [TS]

00:06:38   really nervous about this you know [TS]

00:06:39   you're nervous right whereas the [TS]

00:06:41   other things like for example watching [TS]

00:06:44   some horrible stupid be sci-fi movie [TS]

00:06:47   that just happens to have children in [TS]

00:06:48   danger you rational brains like how this [TS]

00:06:49   movie is stupid but there's some other [TS]

00:06:51   part of you that's triggered by these [TS]

00:06:53   children in danger you're like what is [TS]

00:06:54   this feeling I'm having but it does like [TS]

00:06:55   doesn't connect with the rational part [TS]

00:06:57   of your brain is like or even if it's [TS]

00:06:58   we've already seen I seen this movie 50 [TS]

00:07:00   times why is this bother me why why is [TS]

00:07:02   my heart rate increasing why do I feel a [TS]

00:07:03   little bit upset no until you join you [TS]

00:07:06   feel manipulated to you feel like wow [TS]

00:07:08   they're really just pushing my buttons [TS]

00:07:09   rightly they're doing this just to get a [TS]

00:07:11   rise out of me and you know it really [TS]

00:07:13   works I don't know if I go that far cos [TS]

00:07:15   I'm still able to understand it it's not [TS]

00:07:17   it's not them it's me like that was the [TS]

00:07:19   point of my blogpost I'll put it in the [TS]

00:07:20   show notes it's like it's not a lot of [TS]

00:07:22   people watch that and they get upset [TS]

00:07:23   about the people who made this movie [TS]

00:07:24   like oh well I'm offended well I never [TS]

00:07:26   you know and people don't realize that [TS]

00:07:28   the things that are going to upset you [TS]

00:07:29   have so much more to do with you than [TS]

00:07:31   they do with the creator it's not like [TS]

00:07:32   this movie is bad or those people are [TS]

00:07:35   out to get you because they happen to [TS]

00:07:36   have children in peril and one of the [TS]

00:07:38   examples I think I gave was something [TS]

00:07:39   like if you were in a horrific car crash [TS]

00:07:41   some time in your life any movie or [TS]

00:07:43   television show that involves a car [TS]

00:07:44   crash you will find upsetting right but [TS]

00:07:48   that then people make the leap to say I [TS]

00:07:49   hate these people who made the show with [TS]

00:07:51   the car grass don't they understand the [TS]

00:07:52   people out there I've had car crashes [TS]

00:07:54   this is very upsetting to us you don't [TS]

00:07:55   don't hate the creators there you know [TS]

00:07:57   it's not the content itself that's [TS]

00:07:59   inherently evil or manipulative they [TS]

00:08:01   just can't account for all the [TS]

00:08:02   experiences that individual people might [TS]

00:08:03   have had so I don't I definitely don't [TS]

00:08:05   that was one of the points of my blog [TS]

00:08:07   post I definitely don't go through and [TS]

00:08:08   blame the creators of this content I [TS]

00:08:09   think creators have to be aware that it [TS]

00:08:11   has this effect on certain people but [TS]

00:08:14   there's just no way you can create art [TS]

00:08:15   with worrying about well if the person [TS]

00:08:17   had a relative who had cancer we can't [TS]

00:08:18   have a cancer plotline if the person was [TS]

00:08:19   ever in a car crash we can have a car [TS]

00:08:21   crash and the person have kids we can [TS]

00:08:22   have kids in danger you can't create art [TS]

00:08:24   that way yeah there's a certain taboo [TS]

00:08:26   around children I mean if you look at [TS]

00:08:28   videogames for example I remember and [TS]

00:08:29   fallout in other games there's like [TS]

00:08:30   games where you just cannot harm [TS]

00:08:32   children it's just not it's so taboo and [TS]

00:08:34   people complain about that and they just [TS]

00:08:36   leave it but it but there's a special [TS]

00:08:38   taboo around it that there's not a taboo [TS]

00:08:40   around safety oh yeah everybody has kids [TS]

00:08:42   but how many people have been in a [TS]

00:08:43   horrific car crash you know it's a [TS]

00:08:44   common experience and the bond is so [TS]

00:08:45   strong with children it's just yeah so [TS]

00:08:48   there's a gradation there [TS]

00:08:51   and you shouldn't do something to be [TS]

00:08:54   intentionally manipulative like I'm [TS]

00:08:56   doing this because I know will upset [TS]

00:08:58   people with kids but if it's part of the [TS]

00:08:59   story you know that's it's a balance I [TS]

00:09:02   think there's something there's [TS]

00:09:03   something to that I mean in you know [TS]

00:09:06   anecdotally the thing about you know if [TS]

00:09:07   you go to prison if you're known as a [TS]

00:09:09   person who are its children like even [TS]

00:09:10   the criminals hate you right like yeah [TS]

00:09:13   that's what I remember hearing and I [TS]

00:09:15   believe it right because there's [TS]

00:09:16   something like even if you're hardened [TS]

00:09:17   criminal that's like basically evil like [TS]

00:09:20   you will do harm to other criminals who [TS]

00:09:21   have harmed children so I don't know [TS]

00:09:24   there's a lot of residue with all the [TS]

00:09:26   criminals were children at one point and [TS]

00:09:27   were very likely harm themselves that's [TS]

00:09:29   actually an example of somebody who said [TS]

00:09:30   well well I was harmed as a child [TS]

00:09:32   therefore if I anytime I see this [TS]

00:09:33   happening it makes me very upset so the [TS]

00:09:35   odds of a criminal having a bad [TS]

00:09:37   childhood are very high and then someone [TS]

00:09:38   comes in who hurts children that's going [TS]

00:09:40   to trigger in all those people not not [TS]

00:09:42   just because it's like a taboo but [TS]

00:09:43   because that happened to them it's as if [TS]

00:09:45   they were all in car crashes and then a [TS]

00:09:46   car crash comes in to prison you know [TS]

00:09:48   that's a really interesting theory that [TS]

00:09:50   makes sense I mean I don't think all [TS]

00:09:52   criminals were necessarily mistreat [TS]

00:09:54   children but I agree it's just more more [TS]

00:09:55   likely it is compounding because even if [TS]

00:09:57   you if you were not in a place full of [TS]

00:09:58   criminals even just normal people with [TS]

00:10:00   normal childhoods but not like you yeah [TS]

00:10:01   you're right it is it is one of the [TS]

00:10:03   bigger taboos that's out there with very [TS]

00:10:05   good reasons I'm I'm a humongous fan of [TS]

00:10:08   evolutionary explanations of almost [TS]

00:10:11   everything so it kind of makes sense [TS]

00:10:13   that things that harm children would be [TS]

00:10:15   upsetting because all of the people who [TS]

00:10:16   are not upset by harm to children didn't [TS]

00:10:18   successfully make their pass on their [TS]

00:10:20   genes you know I mean that's like that's [TS]

00:10:22   also a good point so moving on from that [TS]

00:10:25   although I John was absolutely right [TS]

00:10:27   about this you can write that down John [TS]

00:10:28   that you were right about that I am [TS]

00:10:32   reading the Steve Jobs biography I [TS]

00:10:34   haven't gotten deeply into it but [TS]

00:10:37   immediately I mean I'm impressed you [TS]

00:10:39   know because I was a little critical of [TS]

00:10:40   jobs on the Twitter because of the [TS]

00:10:43   I think what bothers me a little bit [TS]

00:10:44   about jobs is a is a complex person [TS]

00:10:47   right he has he has a dark side which I [TS]

00:10:49   think comes clue through very clearly in [TS]

00:10:51   the biography but I was very impressed [TS]

00:10:52   that he authorized this biography that [TS]

00:10:54   you know he didn't vet it's just not [TS]

00:10:56   like a sanitized view of jobs this is a [TS]

00:10:59   third party reporter who liked jobs sort [TS]

00:11:02   of but wasn't like in love with him [TS]

00:11:04   writing you know his reality he's trying [TS]

00:11:08   to write the reality of the you know the [TS]

00:11:09   person that jobs was and that does come [TS]

00:11:11   through even though I'm only like ten [TS]

00:11:13   percent through according to Kindle [TS]

00:11:15   I appreciate that Jobs was willing to to [TS]

00:11:18   do this at the end of his life say you [TS]

00:11:19   know I'm not gonna have this reality [TS]

00:11:21   distortion field of my life I'm going to [TS]

00:11:23   have this reporter write exactly what he [TS]

00:11:25   thinks and talk to the original people [TS]

00:11:27   and I mean that's not that that that [TS]

00:11:30   definitely is a positive measure of jobs [TS]

00:11:32   as a man I think that they did that I [TS]

00:11:34   assume that you've completed it I'm [TS]

00:11:37   almost done I think next week's show is [TS]

00:11:40   actually going to be all about jobs in [TS]

00:11:42   fact this if you hadn't shown up this [TS]

00:11:44   week's show is going to be all about the [TS]

00:11:45   jobs by Allah if I could help it I have [TS]

00:11:47   a lot of things to say about it but I'm [TS]

00:11:48   coming definitely from a different place [TS]

00:11:49   than your because I would imagine this [TS]

00:11:51   is the first book about Apple or jobs [TS]

00:11:53   that you've ever read it is but like I [TS]

00:11:56   knew so much of the history like I've [TS]

00:11:57   like I said I'm only 10% in but the [TS]

00:11:59   early history it's repeating a lot stuff [TS]

00:12:01   that I knew yeah a lot of this is like [TS]

00:12:03   you know in the culture now where the [TS]

00:12:05   founding story of Apple and stuff you [TS]

00:12:06   just get it through osmosis from being [TS]

00:12:07   on the web you know exactly but I mean [TS]

00:12:09   it's not like I you know I I knew of [TS]

00:12:13   jobs I knew the history and it's already [TS]

00:12:14   a little bit repetitive like I'm not [TS]

00:12:16   learning a ton knew that other than [TS]

00:12:17   again the complexity of jobs you know [TS]

00:12:19   having the dark and light side that [TS]

00:12:23   comes through very clearly that I think [TS]

00:12:24   that does sometimes get lost that was [TS]

00:12:25   actually my beef a lot of my beef on [TS]

00:12:27   Twitter was that the painting of this [TS]

00:12:29   this is really the beautification of [TS]

00:12:31   yeah that happens anytime I assume since [TS]

00:12:34   you probably don't listen to my podcast [TS]

00:12:35   if you had listened to the episode where [TS]

00:12:37   we talked about Steve Jobs both retiring [TS]

00:12:39   and then again when he died I think I [TS]

00:12:41   made a lot of the same points that you [TS]

00:12:42   were making on Twitter about the dangers [TS]

00:12:44   of putting someone up on a pedestal and [TS]

00:12:47   not recognizing them for what they were [TS]

00:12:49   and I made some predictions about things [TS]

00:12:50   we might see in the jobs bio and sure [TS]

00:12:52   enough I'm at the point now we're [TS]

00:12:53   getting to new information that wasn't [TS]

00:12:55   previously released and you could see a [TS]

00:12:57   lot of the things I predicted but I [TS]

00:12:58   don't go too far often on that tangent [TS]

00:13:00   with the one thing I really wanted to [TS]

00:13:01   talk about this is not really timely now [TS]

00:13:03   but it would have been timely if we'd [TS]

00:13:04   gotten our acts together sooner is the [TS]

00:13:07   thing that you wrote what was the title [TS]

00:13:08   of this I just have it in my notes as [TS]

00:13:10   Apple as king you remember that blog [TS]

00:13:11   post on coding horror oh yeah serving [TS]

00:13:14   the pleasure of the Kings that's right [TS]

00:13:15   so I [TS]

00:13:17   I'll try to summarize it for you for [TS]

00:13:19   them and you can correct me if wrong but [TS]

00:13:21   it was basically about what it's like to [TS]

00:13:24   be a developer for the platforms that [TS]

00:13:26   Apple controls with Apple being the king [TS]

00:13:27   and you know you serve at the pleasure [TS]

00:13:29   of the king as a developer and you made [TS]

00:13:33   a couple of examples about Marco with [TS]

00:13:35   Marco and Instapaper and his trials and [TS]

00:13:37   then Marco responded to your pose and [TS]

00:13:39   then another person responded to Marcos [TS]

00:13:41   response and I put a whole bunch of [TS]

00:13:43   these in the show notes people can [TS]

00:13:44   follow the links and see the you know [TS]

00:13:45   typical this is happening [TS]

00:13:46   internet should work someone puts a blog [TS]

00:13:48   post it's interesting and provocative [TS]

00:13:50   and that other people reply on their [TS]

00:13:52   blogs and it just goes around a circle [TS]

00:13:53   and it went over to Twitter and the [TS]

00:13:54   whole nine yards it was it was a great [TS]

00:13:56   cycle there but I think that's a good [TS]

00:13:58   jumping-off point for what I perceive to [TS]

00:14:01   be strange continuing prejudices in the [TS]

00:14:06   world of people who are not absolutely [TS]

00:14:08   embroiled in all things Apple about what [TS]

00:14:12   Apple's like and the way they work so I [TS]

00:14:14   guess I'll start by asking Jeff what if [TS]

00:14:18   I've done a bad job summarize what [TS]

00:14:19   you're saying what what do you think [TS]

00:14:20   your main point was with with that [TS]

00:14:22   article and how do you respond to the [TS]

00:14:24   people who argued against it I think [TS]

00:14:27   where I was going with that is that [TS]

00:14:29   Apple is unique in that they really are [TS]

00:14:32   willing to sacrifice you for the greater [TS]

00:14:35   good of sort of the goal and the goal in [TS]

00:14:38   this case is you know a good experience [TS]

00:14:40   for consumers and I as a consumer that [TS]

00:14:42   was one of the points of this blog entry [TS]

00:14:43   was a consumer I agree with it that [TS]

00:14:45   basically they should be screwing their [TS]

00:14:47   developers to protect me because [TS]

00:14:49   developers often if you look at like [TS]

00:14:51   what's wrong with a lot of the windows [TS]

00:14:52   ecosystem it's that the developers are [TS]

00:14:54   selfish they want their apps do exactly [TS]

00:14:57   what they want all the time but that [TS]

00:15:00   doesn't mean that they're doing the [TS]

00:15:01   right thing for you and a trivial little [TS]

00:15:03   example of that is every app in the [TS]

00:15:04   windows ecosystem not every app but way [TS]

00:15:06   too many apps will demand that they run [TS]

00:15:09   its startup and Microsoft has no policy [TS]

00:15:11   about this so the average user has 20 [TS]

00:15:13   things on their computer that start up [TS]

00:15:15   at boot that are mostly frankly bull [TS]

00:15:17   right like that users don't need like [TS]

00:15:19   the Adobe updater to run every time they [TS]

00:15:21   boot the machine but this happily [TS]

00:15:24   happens in the windows ecosystem and the [TS]

00:15:26   windows ecosystem is sort of a a tale of [TS]

00:15:31   what happens when you let third parties [TS]

00:15:33   control the experience they basically [TS]

00:15:34   not to put too fine a point they up [TS]

00:15:37   right and apple says no we're not [TS]

00:15:40   actually going to let that happen we're [TS]

00:15:41   going to give you a very constrained [TS]

00:15:43   list of things that you can do and if [TS]

00:15:45   you sort of violate any of those then [TS]

00:15:48   you know you do so at your peril and as [TS]

00:15:51   a consumer I appreciate that [TS]

00:15:52   because I've seen what happens when you [TS]

00:15:54   let developers have unfettered access to [TS]

00:15:56   everything unless developers do what [TS]

00:15:58   they want to do it's just hard like so [TS]

00:16:02   putting on my developer hat though you [TS]

00:16:04   know it's hard to stomach that as a [TS]

00:16:06   consumer I love it but as a developer it [TS]

00:16:08   makes me really wary you know and that [TS]

00:16:11   was point number one that I was trying [TS]

00:16:12   to make and then point number two is [TS]

00:16:14   this weird bland acceptance of the [TS]

00:16:16   things that Apple does as okay I believe [TS]

00:16:19   in this this this goal of protecting [TS]

00:16:22   consumers is the greater good therefore [TS]

00:16:23   I will you know [TS]

00:16:25   subsume my priorities to match the [TS]

00:16:28   motherships you know instead of being [TS]

00:16:30   critical of Apple as I think they should [TS]

00:16:33   be a little bit more critical that that [TS]

00:16:35   was the weird thing that Marco's post [TS]

00:16:37   was that you know his Twitter message [TS]

00:16:38   was one word you know it was like oh my [TS]

00:16:40   god apples producing this feature that [TS]

00:16:42   does exactly what my paid I mean Marco [TS]

00:16:45   quit this is his company right his [TS]

00:16:46   company does this one thing now Apple [TS]

00:16:48   does this one thing that he does I mean [TS]

00:16:51   there's a little bit more nuance to it [TS]

00:16:53   he doesn't you know better and all that [TS]

00:16:54   stuff but the core feature I believe [TS]

00:16:56   really was copied very very directly and [TS]

00:16:59   I don't know that sort of thing in the [TS]

00:17:02   windows world is viewed very harshly [TS]

00:17:04   right like Apple or Microsoft has stolen [TS]

00:17:07   my feature whatever it is antivirus or [TS]

00:17:10   whatever like you know now Microsoft [TS]

00:17:12   ships Security Essentials or whatever [TS]

00:17:14   and everybody gets up in arms about that [TS]

00:17:16   but when it happens the Apple world it's [TS]

00:17:19   like oh well that's just what happens to [TS]

00:17:20   do so therefore it must be okay and I [TS]

00:17:23   find that a little depressing frankly I [TS]

00:17:26   mean I can add a little bit of color to [TS]

00:17:28   that uh that that Marco tweet because I [TS]

00:17:30   was sitting next to him at the time he [TS]

00:17:32   tweeted it so first of all Marco already [TS]

00:17:33   knew about the disservice that Apple was [TS]

00:17:36   going to introduce in Lion what is it [TS]

00:17:38   called reading list in Safari that was [TS]

00:17:40   known he had paid blogged about it a [TS]

00:17:42   couple months before the thing he [TS]

00:17:44   was upset about was because his [TS]

00:17:46   prediction was that this feature would [TS]

00:17:48   be something they would be in the in [TS]

00:17:50   safari on lion and that's the extent of [TS]

00:17:52   it and and the keynote was revealed that [TS]

00:17:54   these things that you save for later [TS]

00:17:57   reading will be synchronized with your [TS]

00:17:59   iOS devices as well and he had assumed [TS]

00:18:01   that Apple would not do that and that [TS]

00:18:02   was a big big competitive advantage of [TS]

00:18:04   his product was not only does he do it [TS]

00:18:05   better but his thing syncs across all [TS]

00:18:07   your devices where he's assumed apples [TS]

00:18:09   thing would be an island so he was [TS]

00:18:10   immediately upset not by the existence [TS]

00:18:12   the feature but by the fact that it was [TS]

00:18:14   closer to matching the functionality of [TS]

00:18:16   his product than he had originally [TS]

00:18:19   thought now I think did you read all the [TS]

00:18:22   responses to the people I'm sure many [TS]

00:18:23   red markers response and then that Jeff [TS]

00:18:25   the marshalese response [TS]

00:18:27   I haven't actually so he doesn't assert [TS]

00:18:30   enough I will summarize for you so a [TS]

00:18:34   couple of the the things about the [TS]

00:18:36   responses and I have a couple quotes [TS]

00:18:38   from your thing one of the things you [TS]

00:18:40   said if Microsoft added a feature to [TS]

00:18:42   windows that duplicated a popular [TS]

00:18:43   applications functionalities developers [TS]

00:18:44   would be screaming bloody murder and [TS]

00:18:45   rioting in the blogs and web forums and [TS]

00:18:49   a bunch of people responded to show [TS]

00:18:52   extensive examples of Mac developers [TS]

00:18:56   doing the exact same thing you said but [TS]

00:18:58   in the Mac world of the King deems it [TS]

00:18:59   necessary then it must be then so it [TS]

00:19:01   must be so this we have a long history [TS]

00:19:04   in the Apple community of screaming [TS]

00:19:06   bloody murder exactly like that when [TS]

00:19:08   Apple does these things I I'm going to [TS]

00:19:11   go back a couple of years one of the [TS]

00:19:12   first ones that they did was a Sherlock [TS]

00:19:14   Sherlock was this searching utility [TS]

00:19:17   thing I know Dan you still there can you [TS]

00:19:20   give me that what was the thing that [TS]

00:19:22   that uh that Sherlock was squishing was [TS]

00:19:24   Watson right that was incredibly would [TS]

00:19:26   rude because the thing that it was [TS]

00:19:28   squishing was named Watson and you know [TS]

00:19:30   it's clear that Apple knew that they [TS]

00:19:32   were stopping on this guy's thing they [TS]

00:19:33   called her thing Sherlock yeah that's [TS]

00:19:35   exactly right and it was it was a big [TS]

00:19:37   deal then and that was there was also [TS]

00:19:38   some other things going on I'm [TS]

00:19:40   forgetting the name of the other app [TS]

00:19:42   that was out shortly after that time [TS]

00:19:44   period but Apple did a similar thing [TS]

00:19:46   when it came to like it was a task [TS]

00:19:48   switcher app so that you could you [TS]

00:19:49   command tab and you could switch but it [TS]

00:19:51   didn't just let you switch apps it [TS]

00:19:52   presented a very Mac os10 not lights [TS]

00:19:56   light switch there you go and [TS]

00:19:58   we might have even talked about this [TS]

00:19:59   before in the same context that light [TS]

00:20:01   switch Elijah had this great big you [TS]

00:20:04   know icon of the apps that you were [TS]

00:20:05   switching for and then Apple released [TS]

00:20:07   the things so there was there was a [TS]

00:20:08   beginning to be a little bit of a [TS]

00:20:10   pattern of this going on yeah and then [TS]

00:20:12   we dashboard dashboard was a almost a [TS]

00:20:14   direct rip of confabulate Aransas great [TS]

00:20:17   product and when all these things happen [TS]

00:20:19   believe me people were upset about the [TS]

00:20:21   developers were upset huge debates when [TS]

00:20:23   and if you're not reading all their [TS]

00:20:24   blogs maybe you're not going to see this [TS]

00:20:25   because but you'll even get a story on [TS]

00:20:28   Mac worldcom order I don't know if it [TS]

00:20:30   will go to the mainstream media maybe [TS]

00:20:31   you'd see something I don't know what [TS]

00:20:32   things Jeff reads but I'm trying to get [TS]

00:20:34   is that every time this happens there is [TS]

00:20:37   a big very big flare up and push back [TS]

00:20:39   but since it's happened so many times [TS]

00:20:41   now we all kind of know how this goes it [TS]

00:20:44   doesn't mean people don't complain now [TS]

00:20:45   the fact that marco was at you know [TS]

00:20:47   resigned to it happening it's two [TS]

00:20:50   reasons i think first is that he feels [TS]

00:20:52   like it's it may potentially still help [TS]

00:20:54   his business just because it makes more [TS]

00:20:55   people aware that you might want to have [TS]

00:20:57   a utility lets you read things later [TS]

00:20:58   right after second is that he thinks he [TS]

00:21:01   still does it better so he has a [TS]

00:21:02   competitive advantage thing but the [TS]

00:21:03   final thing is that he realizes having [TS]

00:21:06   been in this community for a significant [TS]

00:21:07   time now did screwing bloody Marty but [TS]

00:21:09   does nothing and fighting it is not a [TS]

00:21:11   useful you know thing to do so it's not [TS]

00:21:16   like he's resigned and he's like well [TS]

00:21:17   well Apple is the king and they get to [TS]

00:21:19   do whatever they want it's more like he [TS]

00:21:21   knows that spending energy complaining [TS]

00:21:24   about it is that that energy better [TS]

00:21:25   spent improving his product and working [TS]

00:21:27   on things like that now on the flip side [TS]

00:21:29   many people pointed out that with [TS]

00:21:32   Microsoft did this all the time with the [TS]

00:21:34   windows from like stacker to things that [TS]

00:21:36   do extended memory to antivirus to it [TS]

00:21:38   you know you name it they constantly [TS]

00:21:40   take you know Lotus 1-2-3 those guys [TS]

00:21:42   really didn't like Excel board perfect [TS]

00:21:45   guys really didn't like Word they made a [TS]

00:21:47   business on taking third party products [TS]

00:21:50   that were popular folding them into [TS]

00:21:51   windows and driving the other guys out [TS]

00:21:52   of business you know so and people [TS]

00:21:55   complain back then - it's not like the [TS]

00:21:57   windows developers laid anything but [TS]

00:21:58   what can you do you know I mean I guess [TS]

00:21:59   the stack of people sued them or [TS]

00:22:01   whatever and maybe got some money but if [TS]

00:22:02   you're if you're Lotus and you got one [TS]

00:22:05   two three and Excel comes along as all [TS]

00:22:06   they're using secret API is like this is [TS]

00:22:08   this is the constant tension between [TS]

00:22:10   platform owner [TS]

00:22:11   from owner and developers who work on [TS]

00:22:14   the platform it's nothing new in the [TS]

00:22:16   Apple world and every time it happens [TS]

00:22:18   some people are upset some people defend [TS]

00:22:20   the platform owner and it just it's kind [TS]

00:22:21   of the same thing so I don't really see [TS]

00:22:23   especially with the Mac but we'll talk [TS]

00:22:25   about iOS and second I don't really see [TS]

00:22:26   a big difference in terms of developers [TS]

00:22:29   acquiescing to the desires of Apple when [TS]

00:22:33   it comes to Apple squishing third-party [TS]

00:22:35   developers they're just kind of like a [TS]

00:22:36   steamroller and people get steamrolled [TS]

00:22:37   the people get steamrolled are not happy [TS]

00:22:39   about it just like the people who got [TS]

00:22:40   steamrolled by Microsoft we're not happy [TS]

00:22:42   about it [TS]

00:22:42   I look more like Jeff is expressing is [TS]

00:22:45   that this is a bummer when this happens [TS]

00:22:46   I think we can all agree on that like [TS]

00:22:48   you don't want to be that developer you [TS]

00:22:49   feel bad for those developers in fact in [TS]

00:22:51   my Mac it was 10 review for a 10-point [TS]

00:22:53   for Tiger I believe it was I had an [TS]

00:22:55   entire section talking about dashboard [TS]

00:22:58   where I made this snarky joke that I was [TS]

00:23:00   I showed screenshots of the product of [TS]

00:23:01   squish and I so sorry I I got mixed up [TS]

00:23:03   there actually this is dashboard the [TS]

00:23:05   thing I was showing before was [TS]

00:23:06   confabulated I know they look identical [TS]

00:23:07   you know I was upset about it enough and [TS]

00:23:10   you know I didn't have any skin in that [TS]

00:23:11   game I didn't I was an investor in [TS]

00:23:13   either one of the companies or anything [TS]

00:23:14   like that I just thought it was a rude [TS]

00:23:15   thing to do what it happens sure well I [TS]

00:23:19   think one thing that the factors in here [TS]

00:23:21   is is and honestly it's a little [TS]

00:23:22   Orwellian like I remembered because I [TS]

00:23:24   went to the the official Apple comm page [TS]

00:23:27   about what's new in iOS and I was [TS]

00:23:30   reading because I actually wanted to [TS]

00:23:33   look at that and and I remembered seeing [TS]

00:23:35   the reason this even came up was because [TS]

00:23:36   it explicitly mentioned Instapaper it's [TS]

00:23:38   like we have developed this reader [TS]

00:23:40   feature that's like your this this [TS]

00:23:42   popular app Instapaper and then I was [TS]

00:23:45   like why that's really weird that they [TS]

00:23:46   would call it out by name and mention it [TS]

00:23:48   and you know all that stuff and then I [TS]

00:23:50   went back because I was writing the blog [TS]

00:23:52   entry about it and they had removed it [TS]

00:23:53   and it would just cease to exist like [TS]

00:23:55   that mention was gone [TS]

00:23:57   yeah that's not an appropriate mission [TS]

00:23:59   because you don't want to be helping [TS]

00:24:00   your competitor there but yeah you know [TS]

00:24:02   there clearly they saw a third party [TS]

00:24:04   product it was very popular and they [TS]

00:24:05   said we should have a thing like that [TS]

00:24:06   and they could either buy something else [TS]

00:24:10   and I just did it themselves but the [TS]

00:24:11   thing I'm complaining about is they went [TS]

00:24:12   back and rewrote history like they want [TS]

00:24:14   it so they took out the name yeah they [TS]

00:24:15   took out was someone probably put it in [TS]

00:24:17   that copy because they wanted to express [TS]

00:24:19   to people you know here's why you might [TS]

00:24:21   like this may have heard of Instapaper [TS]

00:24:22   but we have a feature like that and [TS]

00:24:23   someone else came along and said it's [TS]

00:24:24   not really appropriate [TS]

00:24:25   for us to be main competitors they don't [TS]

00:24:27   name any of their competitors really [TS]

00:24:28   they don't like to put you know that's [TS]

00:24:29   just PR 101 I don't think it's like a [TS]

00:24:33   secret they just changed their copy they [TS]

00:24:34   didn't just a copy all the time if [TS]

00:24:35   archived that are caught it them they [TS]

00:24:37   did but I don't you know it's not it [TS]

00:24:38   doesn't make it any more or less clear [TS]

00:24:40   that they're doing what insta vapor [TS]

00:24:41   doesn't there are other products besides [TS]

00:24:42   instapaper that are instant paper [TS]

00:24:44   ripoffs as well it's not like Instapaper [TS]

00:24:47   was the only entry in the field none [TS]

00:24:48   Apple came along well Kelsey gets them [TS]

00:24:50   here and this is another sort of deep [TS]

00:24:52   problem with Apple in my opinion with [TS]

00:24:53   regards to development stuff is they're [TS]

00:24:55   they're so secretive about everything [TS]

00:24:57   and stuff you know sort of just [TS]

00:24:58   magically happens and that's why I think [TS]

00:25:01   leads to some of this attitude of you [TS]

00:25:03   know you can't necessarily fight it [TS]

00:25:04   because a Apple will always win it's [TS]

00:25:06   their platform that's part of the the [TS]

00:25:08   rules of the game and I get that but [TS]

00:25:10   it's not particularly amenable to this I [TS]

00:25:11   mean developers work best in open [TS]

00:25:14   environments where there's actually [TS]

00:25:15   communication and you know there's not [TS]

00:25:17   so much secrecy like on like example on [TS]

00:25:19   Stack Overflow I'm constantly getting [TS]

00:25:21   people flagging stuff is like this is [TS]

00:25:23   secret they can't talk about this you [TS]

00:25:25   know and I don't think they don't care [TS]

00:25:27   like whenever I see that I'm like I just [TS]

00:25:28   dismiss it because hey I don't care and [TS]

00:25:29   be I don't believe in it like I don't [TS]

00:25:31   think you can be secretive about like [TS]

00:25:33   API is you're going to release that's [TS]

00:25:35   crazy right like that's [TS]

00:25:36   counterproductive that actually works [TS]

00:25:38   against the goal as a developer now I [TS]

00:25:40   realize again that there's there's not [TS]

00:25:42   necessarily an alignment of what [TS]

00:25:43   developers want when consumers want I [TS]

00:25:44   totally get that and I think buying into [TS]

00:25:47   this culture that Apple has means you [TS]

00:25:49   bind the culture of the consumer is [TS]

00:25:51   always right and Apple is always right [TS]

00:25:53   and and you just have to live with it [TS]

00:25:55   it's like being in a relationship with a [TS]

00:25:57   kind of a semi abusive spouse who [TS]

00:25:59   basically can overrule you at a whim [TS]

00:26:01   like there they will tolerate your [TS]

00:26:03   opinion right but when it come push [TS]

00:26:05   comes to shove like they get final say [TS]

00:26:07   every time I'll see once again I think [TS]

00:26:09   if you had been deeply embroiled in the [TS]

00:26:11   Apple community you would have seen that [TS]

00:26:12   that ever since the release of iOS and [TS]

00:26:14   that SDK there has been a huge torrent [TS]

00:26:18   of the negative feedback and negative [TS]

00:26:20   feelings about Apple's policies [TS]

00:26:22   regarding the SDK and the very first one [TS]

00:26:24   was the fact that they had an NDA that [TS]

00:26:26   prevented developers from even talking [TS]

00:26:28   to other developers who were also bound [TS]

00:26:30   by the same NDA about the API and [TS]

00:26:32   developers push back on that like crazy [TS]

00:26:33   you know it doesn't make Apple any less [TS]

00:26:36   of a dictator to say that there I've [TS]

00:26:38   been Evelyn [TS]

00:26:39   but in general they tried to be [TS]

00:26:40   benevolent so after yes after many [TS]

00:26:42   months of people screaming bloody murder [TS]

00:26:44   I remember how long in the end that [TS]

00:26:45   restriction on the end a was in effect [TS]

00:26:47   Apple reversed then said ok you can talk [TS]

00:26:49   about the api's without the developers [TS]

00:26:51   right but still you couldn't talk about [TS]

00:26:52   them in public you know so it's it's a [TS]

00:26:54   matter of degrees the same thing with [TS]

00:26:55   when they when they put a ban on [TS]

00:26:58   interpreters and that a bunch of game [TS]

00:27:00   developers were like well we use you [TS]

00:27:01   know Lua scripting or whatever in our [TS]

00:27:03   game engine and you're destroying our [TS]

00:27:04   ability to produce games in your [TS]

00:27:05   platform in fact 50 of the top best [TS]

00:27:07   selling games you have on your store [TS]

00:27:08   right now use the scripting engine and [TS]

00:27:10   here's this new restrictions as we can't [TS]

00:27:11   use interpreters and it was aimed that I [TS]

00:27:13   believe was in flash and a bunch of [TS]

00:27:14   other things but what got caught up with [TS]

00:27:17   it technically speaking we're a bunch of [TS]

00:27:18   games that use scripting engines and [TS]

00:27:20   eventually Apple reversed that decision [TS]

00:27:21   as well they reversed it because people [TS]

00:27:23   you know it's there is a relationship [TS]

00:27:25   there it's a strained relationship it's [TS]

00:27:27   a messed up relationship it's not an [TS]

00:27:29   open relationship it's a relationship [TS]

00:27:30   with a huge imbalance of power but [TS]

00:27:32   that's always the case [TS]

00:27:34   Apple's secrecy about its api's and [TS]

00:27:39   stuff it's sometimes it's difficult to [TS]

00:27:42   think how does that help consumers [TS]

00:27:44   obviously secrecy about products and [TS]

00:27:46   when products didn't release is [TS]

00:27:47   particularly hardware but even OS [TS]

00:27:48   releases and stuff like that you can [TS]

00:27:50   make arguments for why that helps Apple [TS]

00:27:51   that helps consumers in terms of the [TS]

00:27:53   Osborne effect and not pronouncing [TS]

00:27:56   things and not promising things you [TS]

00:27:57   can't deliver and all that and you know [TS]

00:27:59   all that stuff but secrecy about the API [TS]

00:28:02   is like well we're protecting it from [TS]

00:28:04   competitors doesn't make any sense [TS]

00:28:05   either how is that better for customers [TS]

00:28:06   and competitors can just get a developer [TS]

00:28:11   account with Apple anyway so but still [TS]

00:28:13   in this interview there's definitely [TS]

00:28:15   this is I was gonna say this is [TS]

00:28:16   basically the number one complaint that [TS]

00:28:18   Apple the developers have about Apple I [TS]

00:28:19   bet if you surveyed them would be that [TS]

00:28:21   it's not an open relationship of [TS]

00:28:22   communication between them secondarily [TS]

00:28:24   would be like oh and we can't talk about [TS]

00:28:25   this stuff publicly but even just [TS]

00:28:27   primarily is like we have problems as [TS]

00:28:29   developers and we feel like we're [TS]

00:28:30   talking to a black hole right and [TS]

00:28:32   develop Apple has great developer [TS]

00:28:34   relations people who some of whom were [TS]

00:28:35   on Twitter and it's like if you become [TS]

00:28:36   personal friends with them because you [TS]

00:28:38   meet them at WWDC then you can maybe get [TS]

00:28:39   your particular thing looked at and [TS]

00:28:41   stuff in there trying to help individual [TS]

00:28:42   employees are trying to help but the [TS]

00:28:44   culture is such that it doesn't foster [TS]

00:28:45   open communication between the parties [TS]

00:28:47   now hold your response for a sec Jeff we [TS]

00:28:49   get to do our first sponsor its brain [TS]

00:28:50   treasure [TS]

00:28:51   brain trees of Chicago [TS]

00:28:52   based payments company they provide [TS]

00:28:54   elegant tools for developers and White [TS]

00:28:56   Glove support they process like billions [TS]

00:28:58   of dollars in credit card transactions [TS]

00:29:00   every year and they're hiring they're [TS]

00:29:01   looking to find exceptional developers [TS]

00:29:03   with any level of experience they have a [TS]

00:29:05   collaborative environment they do stuff [TS]

00:29:07   like pair programming test-driven [TS]

00:29:08   development agile and extreme [TS]

00:29:09   programming though they focus on Ruby [TS]

00:29:12   they also have client libraries in seven [TS]

00:29:13   different languages like node.js Python [TS]

00:29:15   and even Perl John the vista mentioning [TS]

00:29:19   they would hate rise on to make it known [TS]

00:29:22   they will pay up to ten thousand dollars [TS]

00:29:23   if you recommend a developer that they [TS]

00:29:25   hire of course you should apply if [TS]

00:29:29   you're interested you can find out more [TS]

00:29:30   at Braintree payments calm these guys [TS]

00:29:32   are great they do really the best job of [TS]

00:29:35   processing payments for you you should [TS]

00:29:37   check them out anyway just for that but [TS]

00:29:39   they are hiring so go over there [TS]

00:29:40   Braintree payments calm thanks very much [TS]

00:29:43   to them ranking show possible I want to [TS]

00:29:45   do a little follow-up from someone in [TS]

00:29:47   the chatroom I was pretty sure I had [TS]

00:29:48   this reverse to and they and I'm going [TS]

00:29:50   to assume they're correct and actually [TS]

00:29:51   looked it up but the Watson name was [TS]

00:29:53   derived from Sherlock because Sherlock [TS]

00:29:54   was a proc that many different [TS]

00:29:55   iterations so Watson was a man there was [TS]

00:29:58   a Teta there was a different take on [TS]

00:30:00   Sherlock on the next version of Sherlock [TS]

00:30:01   came out that sort of subsumed Watson's [TS]

00:30:03   functionality so that was a more [TS]

00:30:05   incestuous relationship and I had [TS]

00:30:07   previously implied so I apologize for [TS]

00:30:08   that [TS]

00:30:09   later I go ahead Jeff I was talking [TS]

00:30:12   about shame on you John yes I'm Sheena [TS]

00:30:14   come on old man how could you make that [TS]

00:30:16   mistake yeah I think might be there is [TS]

00:30:20   like why does this even happen like that [TS]

00:30:21   doesn't even pass the sniff test for me [TS]

00:30:23   that developers can't talk to each other [TS]

00:30:25   I mean this is crazy like how did that [TS]

00:30:27   even do like why is that you'll see [TS]

00:30:29   they're on day one right I think you [TS]

00:30:31   will I think by reading the the the jobs [TS]

00:30:33   bio you eventually get into like how the [TS]

00:30:35   internals of Apple work and you'll see I [TS]

00:30:37   think you'll be able to see how that [TS]

00:30:38   comes to pass now I you know again it [TS]

00:30:40   wouldn't be great if you could get an [TS]

00:30:41   Apple person on say how the hell did you [TS]

00:30:44   come up with that decision because if [TS]

00:30:45   you would asked any developer like pick [TS]

00:30:47   a random developer and say do you think [TS]

00:30:48   it's a good idea I think we should do [TS]

00:30:49   this what I said no that's crazy [TS]

00:30:50   right you know really possible okay what [TS]

00:30:54   so what you're saying guys we'll start [TS]

00:30:55   with the beatings but then when you [TS]

00:30:56   complain enough yes we will maybe tone [TS]

00:30:58   down the beatings a lot but the thing is [TS]

00:31:00   the thing is that I bet they would have [TS]

00:31:01   a reason for why they thought that was [TS]

00:31:02   so the reason things like that happen [TS]

00:31:04   company like apples the same reason that [TS]

00:31:07   that Apple does all these great things [TS]

00:31:09   because Apple doesn't work like other [TS]

00:31:11   companies where things aren't sort of [TS]

00:31:13   done by committee there's a lot of [TS]

00:31:15   individual initiative or at least at [TS]

00:31:17   very small groups of people it works [TS]

00:31:19   more like a startup and see when you get [TS]

00:31:20   one person in a position of power who [TS]

00:31:23   has a really bad idea that bad idea [TS]

00:31:25   comes to pass whereas in another company [TS]

00:31:27   that the edges would be filed off and [TS]

00:31:29   that wouldn't make it through like the [TS]

00:31:30   committee review process and there would [TS]

00:31:31   have been debates about it that's those [TS]

00:31:33   are the same things that make Apple able [TS]

00:31:34   to do great things they also allow [TS]

00:31:36   really dumb things to sneak out maybe [TS]

00:31:38   there's some really good reason for [TS]

00:31:42   doing this that I can't think of but but [TS]

00:31:44   yeah and because it's like so bad for [TS]

00:31:46   developers and so ridiculous and to [TS]

00:31:47   imagine that you know if I had to guess [TS]

00:31:49   I would say the reason is well we want [TS]

00:31:52   to try to prevent competitors from [TS]

00:31:55   getting an idea of how we're building [TS]

00:31:56   the API B's when we build that one until [TS]

00:31:57   the Macintosh API we brought Microsoft [TS]

00:32:00   in and we want them to make applications [TS]

00:32:02   for us and they just constantly you are [TS]

00:32:05   you know they stole our whole API they [TS]

00:32:07   said oh this is how you make a GUI API [TS]

00:32:08   where we're going to make a Windows API [TS]

00:32:09   it's very similar to us and use a lot of [TS]

00:32:10   the same concepts and they would you [TS]

00:32:12   know ask questions about the a bevel so [TS]

00:32:14   if if we make the developers not be able [TS]

00:32:16   to talk to each other then technically [TS]

00:32:18   speaking individual developers can't [TS]

00:32:20   talk to other individual developers and [TS]

00:32:22   discuss how we've implemented Iowa John [TS]

00:32:24   so so one thing that's crazy about that [TS]

00:32:26   is okay look at the PC industry they [TS]

00:32:29   they're only now coming up with a [TS]

00:32:30   credible MacBook Air thank you goodbye [TS]

00:32:34   no I know it's not I mean so like even [TS]

00:32:35   if you made it completely public it [TS]

00:32:37   doesn't matter because you're dealing [TS]

00:32:38   with people that are so incompetent that [TS]

00:32:40   they are so to say is like it's these [TS]

00:32:43   are bad ideas because if you were if you [TS]

00:32:45   heard someone presenter this the idea to [TS]

00:32:47   be like that's crazy it's not just [TS]

00:32:48   knowing how iOS works doesn't mean you [TS]

00:32:50   can immediately make a copy of it it was [TS]

00:32:51   that easy you know execution is not easy [TS]

00:32:53   just because you know what doing doesn't [TS]

00:32:54   mean you can do the same thing all [TS]

00:32:56   you're doing is is you know peeing in [TS]

00:32:58   the well you're screwing up your own [TS]

00:32:59   ecosystem but doing that that's what [TS]

00:33:00   makes me crazy about that is I I will go [TS]

00:33:03   to my death saying this Apple is one of [TS]

00:33:06   the worst companies for developers it [TS]

00:33:07   really really is like well so there's [TS]

00:33:10   there there's more to a how a company is [TS]

00:33:13   for developers than the things we've [TS]

00:33:15   been talking about so far right because [TS]

00:33:17   it just only who wins [TS]

00:33:18   the market I mean ultimately that's I [TS]

00:33:20   mean this is against it's not just that [TS]

00:33:22   there's much more to that so I'll give [TS]

00:33:23   you actually I want to go rewind way [TS]

00:33:25   back to the beginning when you were [TS]

00:33:27   talking about how Windows - windows [TS]

00:33:29   developer screw up the windows ecosystem [TS]

00:33:31   but like having their app launched on [TS]

00:33:33   login because they're so super important [TS]

00:33:34   they want their app to launch and login [TS]

00:33:35   right now and how Microsoft is open and [TS]

00:33:39   permissive but then you get a bunch of [TS]

00:33:40   these crap or apps to do this right [TS]

00:33:42   well ignoring iOS for now the Mac lets [TS]

00:33:45   you do that to any application can [TS]

00:33:47   launch itself on login you can install [TS]

00:33:48   an application and it can mmediately say [TS]

00:33:50   I want to launch online it so why don't [TS]

00:33:52   doesn't every single Mac application [TS]

00:33:53   launch itself on login there is no [TS]

00:33:55   technical policy any kind of reason why [TS]

00:33:58   that shouldn't be just as big a problem [TS]

00:34:00   on Mac OS but it isn't and the reason is [TS]

00:34:03   cultural alright so you know what's the [TS]

00:34:07   explanation for that this is where you [TS]

00:34:09   start getting into like an outpour some [TS]

00:34:10   would say well the reason this isn't a [TS]

00:34:12   problem on the Mac is because Mac [TS]

00:34:13   developers are better than Windows [TS]

00:34:14   developers we're better people were more [TS]

00:34:15   culture we know we wouldn't do that to [TS]

00:34:17   our users we respect our users more or [TS]

00:34:19   whatever right and the Windows person [TS]

00:34:21   would say you know that that's not why [TS]

00:34:24   Mac developers are actually worse than [TS]

00:34:25   Windows developers it's because Mac only [TS]

00:34:27   has small companies developing for it [TS]

00:34:29   and big companies do this yeah I don't [TS]

00:34:30   know the reason but this you know I [TS]

00:34:32   don't think it's even useful to debate [TS]

00:34:33   why that is but it's clear that the [TS]

00:34:36   policy set by the platform owner are not [TS]

00:34:39   the only thing to determine the [TS]

00:34:40   experience and another example is those [TS]

00:34:42   little menu bar icons I don't know if [TS]

00:34:44   you use a Mac Rev as you've seen Joel [TS]

00:34:45   uses Mac's or whatever but you know the [TS]

00:34:47   little icons on the menu bar Jeff they [TS]

00:34:49   go along the top there next to like the [TS]

00:34:51   clock and a bunch of other stuff well [TS]

00:34:53   applications can put little icons up in [TS]

00:34:56   that menu bar and back in the classic [TS]

00:34:57   Mac OS days every application wanted to [TS]

00:34:59   have a cool little icon in the menu bar [TS]

00:35:01   right so it would be always be running [TS]

00:35:03   you have your little thing for Timbuktu [TS]

00:35:05   and now contact and all sorts these [TS]

00:35:07   little programs that have a little bit [TS]

00:35:08   it's kind of like the booty call a thing [TS]

00:35:10   in a the taskbar in Windows that the [TS]

00:35:13   tray area the tray yeah yeah you know [TS]

00:35:15   like every single application wants to [TS]

00:35:17   put a like on the tray and then [TS]

00:35:18   Microsoft added a little Chevron [TS]

00:35:20   expansion things so that the tray [TS]

00:35:22   doesn't take up ten miles and it's just [TS]

00:35:23   this war for the tray and everyone's [TS]

00:35:24   putting crap there the quick launch bar [TS]

00:35:26   similar oh I think both of those are [TS]

00:35:27   gone in Windows 7 now but anyway that's [TS]

00:35:30   another example of there is of [TS]

00:35:32   classrooms will let you do that but on [TS]

00:35:36   classic Mac OS that bar was googly [TS]

00:35:38   filled with stuff but it would not go as [TS]

00:35:39   10 Apple didn't come down and say you're [TS]

00:35:42   not allowed to put menu icons in the [TS]

00:35:43   menu bar anymore what they did say was [TS]

00:35:45   we would really prefer you're not [TS]

00:35:47   defined cons in the menu bar and if you [TS]

00:35:49   do put them there make the monochrome so [TS]

00:35:50   they're not so so glaring right and and [TS]

00:35:53   sure enough if you look at it a typical [TS]

00:35:55   Mac today yeah it's got icons in the [TS]

00:35:57   menu bar nerds have lots of icons in the [TS]

00:35:59   menu bar but since most of them are [TS]

00:36:00   monochrome it's not as bad as it wasn't [TS]

00:36:03   o'clock Oh classic Mac OS days so that [TS]

00:36:06   there's another difference between [TS]

00:36:07   actually restricting someone from doing [TS]

00:36:09   something and just sort of setting the [TS]

00:36:10   tone right well sure and actually we had [TS]

00:36:13   a Rory Blythe on the podcast and he was [TS]

00:36:16   a this is in reference to stack overflow [TS]

00:36:18   and stack he changed that that you [TS]

00:36:20   should be dictatorial and and his [TS]

00:36:22   attitude towards this was like you have [TS]

00:36:24   to be dictatorial otherwise people [TS]

00:36:26   misbehave and actually this goes back to [TS]

00:36:28   when I was when I went the University of [TS]

00:36:29   Virginia and I was a resident advisor in [TS]

00:36:31   my last year the sort of the older [TS]

00:36:33   student lives on the hall with the first [TS]

00:36:35   year students one of the things they [TS]

00:36:36   told us and actually did work was you [TS]

00:36:38   have to start out really strict with [TS]

00:36:40   with the students that are coming in [TS]

00:36:41   because if you don't basically their [TS]

00:36:44   behavior deviates from the like you [TS]

00:36:46   start at a certain point that it just [TS]

00:36:47   gets much more permissive on their end [TS]

00:36:49   so if you start really permissive then [TS]

00:36:51   you end up extremely permissive at the [TS]

00:36:53   end but if you start off being really [TS]

00:36:54   strict then you sort of get a better [TS]

00:36:57   container for the behavior and I [TS]

00:36:58   actually I do agree with that I mean I [TS]

00:37:00   think that's a large part of the problem [TS]

00:37:01   with the windows ecosystem is it was [TS]

00:37:02   like anything goes you know but if you [TS]

00:37:05   start out with hey we're going to be you [TS]

00:37:06   know kind of jerks about this in some [TS]

00:37:09   ways that's what we do on Stack Overflow [TS]

00:37:11   in Stack Exchange one of the reasons we [TS]

00:37:12   get good content because we're really [TS]

00:37:14   strict about you can't have these random [TS]

00:37:17   discussions about like what's your [TS]

00:37:18   favorite variable name you know because [TS]

00:37:20   that just doesn't go anywhere [TS]

00:37:21   interesting you know so I'm down with [TS]

00:37:24   rules I'm absolutely not complaining [TS]

00:37:26   about the fact that hey I don't like all [TS]

00:37:28   these rules and rules a restrictive man [TS]

00:37:30   because we we have that discussion like [TS]

00:37:32   every other week on Stack Overflow that [TS]

00:37:34   change like why are you heavily stupid [TS]

00:37:35   rule fear and there are reasons for the [TS]

00:37:38   rules and I respect the reasons for the [TS]

00:37:39   rules and I think going back to what I [TS]

00:37:41   originally said it all totally comes [TS]

00:37:42   down to the culture which is what you [TS]

00:37:44   were saying of you know we owe [TS]

00:37:46   we wouldn't do that to our users like [TS]

00:37:48   that's that's the money quote here right [TS]

00:37:50   is like the Apple culture teaches you [TS]

00:37:53   that look [TS]

00:37:53   the consumer comes first the user has to [TS]

00:37:56   come first in front of your needs maybe [TS]

00:37:58   in front of apples needs although I [TS]

00:37:59   think sometimes that gets mixed up and [TS]

00:38:01   you start serving apples needs but I [TS]

00:38:03   agree with the goal because you know I'm [TS]

00:38:05   a user right like I'm an iPhone user and [TS]

00:38:07   I don't want apps crashing my phone I [TS]

00:38:09   don't want apps taking over my phone if [TS]

00:38:13   you don't mind I'd like to go in a [TS]

00:38:15   slightly different direction here and [TS]

00:38:17   one of the things that a Nathan Bowers [TS]

00:38:19   on Twitter who I follow has brought up [TS]

00:38:21   multiple times as it he really prefers [TS]

00:38:23   the the the iOS app version of websites [TS]

00:38:26   to the original website and the example [TS]

00:38:28   he gave is eBay and I don't know how [TS]

00:38:30   much use eBay but I use eBay actually a [TS]

00:38:31   fair bit and the web site is kind of [TS]

00:38:34   horrific to use like they've been [TS]

00:38:36   through many iterations and they're all [TS]

00:38:37   basically crap and I think what he's [TS]

00:38:39   saying and maybe I want to see what you [TS]

00:38:41   think of this what happens is when you [TS]

00:38:43   when you push a giant website through a [TS]

00:38:45   three-inch screen it forces you to [TS]

00:38:47   simplify in other words you can't have [TS]

00:38:50   all these dumb UI elements that kind of [TS]

00:38:53   don't work on the main website and [TS]

00:38:54   they're really confusing and there's [TS]

00:38:56   also sort of a built-in standard set of [TS]

00:38:57   widgets in in iOS at least on the iPhone [TS]

00:39:00   I don't have an iPad that sort of forced [TS]

00:39:02   you to do things the same way rather [TS]

00:39:04   than the web has this problem of [TS]

00:39:06   everybody invents their own stupid way [TS]

00:39:07   of doing things you know because the UI [TS]

00:39:09   is kind of like well it's a web page I [TS]

00:39:11   can do anything I want and now there's [TS]

00:39:14   jQuery UI and I can have these you know [TS]

00:39:16   other crazy UI elements that don't quite [TS]

00:39:18   work like everything else and and and I [TS]

00:39:20   see the value of that because when you [TS]

00:39:22   force a complicated kind of annoying [TS]

00:39:24   website like eBay through the strainer [TS]

00:39:27   of a three inch screen with a standard [TS]

00:39:29   set of controls you do actually in some [TS]

00:39:30   ways get up with a better experience but [TS]

00:39:33   I don't think people have articulated [TS]

00:39:34   quite the right way it's not some [TS]

00:39:36   magical thing about the iPhone that [TS]

00:39:37   makes it work it's the it's the 3-inch [TS]

00:39:39   screen combined with a really good set [TS]

00:39:42   of standard widgets and you know Apple [TS]

00:39:44   being jerks about having UI consistency [TS]

00:39:46   I mean do you remember when there used [TS]

00:39:47   to be OS style guides of like when you [TS]

00:39:50   build an app you're supposed to have a [TS]

00:39:51   certain style to your app or store the [TS]

00:39:54   apples thaw Microsoft has one too I [TS]

00:39:56   believe I mean everyone has one it's an [TS]

00:39:57   interface guidelines [TS]

00:39:59   and for what application I don't know [TS]

00:40:01   I'm su migrate that John the web killed [TS]

00:40:03   that because the web is whatever UI you [TS]

00:40:05   want it to be and the document still [TS]

00:40:07   existing continues to be updated for the [TS]

00:40:08   desktop there is no style guide for the [TS]

00:40:10   web which is the point you just made [TS]

00:40:11   like there there's no one saying this is [TS]

00:40:13   what a website has to look like you do [TS]

00:40:15   it all you want but the iPhone is a [TS]

00:40:17   style guide for the web I want to say [TS]

00:40:18   that like when you when you push a [TS]

00:40:20   website through a 3 inch screen all of a [TS]

00:40:22   sudden you end up eating well it's not [TS]

00:40:24   if you look at a lot of mobile websites [TS]

00:40:26   what they what they try to look like [TS]

00:40:28   especially since the iPhone was the [TS]

00:40:30   first mobile device with the browser [TS]

00:40:31   worth a damn so that's what people you [TS]

00:40:34   know made their mobile websites form [TS]

00:40:35   what a lot of people tried to make them [TS]

00:40:37   look like because was make them look [TS]

00:40:39   like iOS apps right down to stealing the [TS]

00:40:41   graphics for the buttons and the scroll [TS]

00:40:43   stuff and you know the ListView and all [TS]

00:40:45   that stuff just because you know it [TS]

00:40:46   looks native right that's a good thing [TS]

00:40:49   at least a there's a standard because [TS]

00:40:50   that's what drives me crazy about the [TS]

00:40:52   web is that yeah it's a great hotbed of [TS]

00:40:53   innovation but it's all over the map in [TS]

00:40:55   terms of UI like it's a major regression [TS]

00:40:58   in terms of UI standards so I'm going to [TS]

00:41:01   angle this guy's name here but I saw [TS]

00:41:04   this at an event apart conference on web [TS]

00:41:06   development a while back Luke Wroblewski [TS]

00:41:10   sorry Luke nan you nailed it Wroblewski [TS]

00:41:13   oh yeah gun so he does a presentation [TS]

00:41:15   called mobile first which is and that [TS]

00:41:19   sort of an advocacy presentation to [TS]

00:41:20   saying when you're designing your [TS]

00:41:22   website design the mobile website first [TS]

00:41:25   and then if if you think it needs more [TS]

00:41:27   enhance it for desktop use and it's a [TS]

00:41:32   very compelling case and it makes all [TS]

00:41:33   the same points that you just made is [TS]

00:41:34   that if you if you try to make a website [TS]

00:41:36   the old-fashioned way again this is a [TS]

00:41:38   conference for web designers who have [TS]

00:41:39   been making websites they say you're [TS]

00:41:40   going to end up adding too much crap so [TS]

00:41:43   if you make the mobile website first you [TS]

00:41:45   may realize that you know all we need on [TS]

00:41:46   this page is the thing our eBay is an [TS]

00:41:48   example you know the thing to search the [TS]

00:41:50   thing to make a bid to sing to see the [TS]

00:41:52   latest bidders are and see the [TS]

00:41:53   description and the pictures and all [TS]

00:41:54   that other crap that's on that page is [TS]

00:41:56   kind of just noise so make the mobile [TS]

00:41:57   website first and then make your browser [TS]

00:41:59   window bigger and load the mobile you [TS]

00:42:01   know you're just design the mobile [TS]

00:42:02   website make your browser window bigger [TS]

00:42:03   and say all right well some of these [TS]

00:42:04   things don't are kind of ridiculous on [TS]

00:42:06   the desktop maybe we could add some more [TS]

00:42:07   information here it's more information [TS]

00:42:08   there and then stop and you're done [TS]

00:42:09   I put it the link to it in the show [TS]

00:42:11   notes this is [TS]

00:42:12   this is an example of simplification [TS]

00:42:15   being forced on the web by the fact that [TS]

00:42:17   when you have a three inch screen you [TS]

00:42:19   just you just can't put all that crap [TS]

00:42:20   that you can't have the big flashy [TS]

00:42:21   banner you don't have room for scroll [TS]

00:42:22   bars and then there's no flash which is [TS]

00:42:25   a good thing I mean yeah as much as I [TS]

00:42:27   you know I'm ambivalent about some [TS]

00:42:29   apples policies but I loved the flash [TS]

00:42:31   policy because to me that was like the [TS]

00:42:33   floppy drive of the web you know it was [TS]

00:42:35   like Apple saying you know what we don't [TS]

00:42:36   like floppy drives no more floppy drives [TS]

00:42:37   and there is what no more floppy drives [TS]

00:42:39   but if if you were hardcore techy this [TS]

00:42:42   made total sense you know uh and and [TS]

00:42:45   sort of putting their foot down and [TS]

00:42:47   saying what there will be no flash and [TS]

00:42:49   that's an example where you you you [TS]

00:42:51   talked about like when you start with a [TS]

00:42:52   mobile design you obviously can't flash [TS]

00:42:54   because it's not even supported on iOS [TS]

00:42:55   device yes but this is a net good to [TS]

00:42:58   humanity I would argue right like we [TS]

00:43:00   don't really need more flash so I [TS]

00:43:02   totally support that [TS]

00:43:05   so - uh no before we do let me do our [TS]

00:43:08   second we get to our second you pay some [TS]

00:43:10   bills this is a good one to pay John you [TS]

00:43:12   you guys both should be thrilled about [TS]

00:43:15   this but this for John serious I feel [TS]

00:43:17   like he's been waiting his whole life [TS]

00:43:18   for the sponsorship it's BBEdit leading [TS]

00:43:22   professional HTML and text editor for [TS]

00:43:24   the Mac from the folks at bare-bones [TS]

00:43:26   dot-com specially crafted responds to [TS]

00:43:29   the needs of web authors such as John [TS]

00:43:31   siracusa and software developers such as [TS]

00:43:34   John siracusa this award-winning product [TS]

00:43:36   provides an abundance of high [TS]

00:43:37   performance features for editing [TS]

00:43:38   searching and text manipulation let's [TS]

00:43:40   get a great interface with easy access [TS]

00:43:42   to their best to class features from [TS]

00:43:44   grep pattern matching search and replace [TS]

00:43:46   across multiple files project definition [TS]

00:43:48   tools and goes on and on is this this is [TS]

00:43:51   for developers for coders for people who [TS]

00:43:54   write code all day long and and want the [TS]

00:43:57   features that allow them to do that [TS]

00:43:59   effectively that's what these guys offer [TS]

00:44:02   so it doesn't matter programming [TS]

00:44:03   building websites anytime you need to [TS]

00:44:05   type just launch BBEdit it doesn't suck [TS]

00:44:07   bare-bones calm thinking get in the Mac [TS]

00:44:10   App Store go try it out today if you're [TS]

00:44:13   not using it I've heard good things I [TS]

00:44:16   feel like I could have done that ad you [TS]

00:44:17   should have done that do you want to do [TS]

00:44:19   it I'm a will do - I'm a bi yeah you [TS]

00:44:24   know I can do a separate show about my [TS]

00:44:25   hatred [TS]

00:44:26   all windows editors all shredded no it's [TS]

00:44:30   not ultra alright second read that was [TS]

00:44:35   the best editor they had going him I [TS]

00:44:37   know that's what so sad about it yeah [TS]

00:44:39   alright so actually I want to get back [TS]

00:44:41   to talking about ah the what but Apple [TS]

00:44:48   brings to you as a developer for being [TS]

00:44:51   on a platform Jeff mentioned before [TS]

00:44:52   obviously if they have a lot of [TS]

00:44:54   customers that doesn't hurt you know [TS]

00:44:56   what I mean right so it could be argued [TS]

00:44:58   that the most important thing the [TS]

00:45:00   platform owner blinks brings to [TS]

00:45:02   developer is the platform own or through [TS]

00:45:04   its decision making process has made it [TS]

00:45:07   so lots of people own devices with that [TS]

00:45:09   platform and that broadens our base that [TS]

00:45:11   you can sell into so that's why you can [TS]

00:45:12   argue that Microsoft was the best [TS]

00:45:14   platform owner of the A's and 90s [TS]

00:45:16   because they made the biggest platform [TS]

00:45:17   and if you wanted to sell a lot of [TS]

00:45:19   copies of software Windows was the place [TS]

00:45:21   to go because even if you sold a copy to [TS]

00:45:23   every single Mac user wouldn't be you [TS]

00:45:25   know as much as selling to a small [TS]

00:45:27   percentage of Windows users right right [TS]

00:45:30   but then pizzas are stopped paying for [TS]

00:45:32   software yeah well that's a whole other [TS]

00:45:34   issue of like who is more likely to pay [TS]

00:45:35   for software windows user vacuums but [TS]

00:45:36   the other thing i want to say that the [TS]

00:45:38   platform owners bring to you as a [TS]

00:45:40   developer we already talked about all [TS]

00:45:41   the things that they're there against [TS]

00:45:43   you with and they're annoying about and [TS]

00:45:44   bad communication and they're stomping [TS]

00:45:45   on your your products and stuff like [TS]

00:45:47   that but the other thing that they bring [TS]

00:45:48   with them [TS]

00:45:49   I think that's usually overlooked is the [TS]

00:45:52   culture of the platform the culture that [TS]

00:45:55   the platform want to bring so again [TS]

00:45:56   getting back to those icons in the menu [TS]

00:45:57   bar and classic Mac OS the culture had [TS]

00:45:59   gotten to the point such that every [TS]

00:46:01   single Mac application including many [TS]

00:46:02   popular ones even though there was like [TS]

00:46:04   very few Mac developers and Mac market [TS]

00:46:06   share was tiny and this was classic Mac [TS]

00:46:07   OS days it was still getting kind of [TS]

00:46:09   gunked up with the equivalent of those [TS]

00:46:11   stickers on the laptops you had this [TS]

00:46:12   little icons all over your menu bar I [TS]

00:46:14   was out of hand and they were all just [TS]

00:46:16   you know everyone wanted a piece of the [TS]

00:46:17   real estate on the thing and Apple [TS]

00:46:18   wasn't good at managing that culturally [TS]

00:46:21   and it sure didn't you know didn't it [TS]

00:46:22   didn't put a technical limit on or [TS]

00:46:24   anything like that [TS]

00:46:25   and Mac os10 come out still no technical [TS]

00:46:27   limit you can put your icons in the menu [TS]

00:46:28   bar and people did but what they what [TS]

00:46:31   they did yeah the end say they said [TS]

00:46:33   please don't put many icons the menu bar [TS]

00:46:35   they had said that before to what they [TS]

00:46:36   did was say look look what a UI can look [TS]

00:46:38   like when we [TS]

00:46:39   trip out all this noise because Mac os10 [TS]

00:46:42   was kind of a reboot of the Mac UI [TS]

00:46:44   everything changed you know drop-down [TS]

00:46:46   menus from or less the same but the [TS]

00:46:47   windows the scroll bars the look of the [TS]

00:46:49   applications the way applications were [TS]

00:46:50   designed the moving parts of them [TS]

00:46:51   everything about it you know said look [TS]

00:46:53   what we can do when we strip down an [TS]

00:46:55   application and the other things that [TS]

00:46:58   the platform owner brings you is when [TS]

00:46:59   you make an application on that platform [TS]

00:47:01   developers love to be able to not have [TS]

00:47:04   to write a lot of code and get something [TS]

00:47:06   cool-looking which which partially [TS]

00:47:07   explains the huge popularity of brush [TS]

00:47:09   metal I don't know if Mac if if Jeff was [TS]

00:47:12   into the Apple platform and knew much [TS]

00:47:14   about it back then but there was a point [TS]

00:47:15   where there every single application [TS]

00:47:16   that came up for the Mac had this [TS]

00:47:18   brushed metal look you know you can see [TS]

00:47:20   in an iTunes now I don't to bring up [TS]

00:47:22   Jeff favorite application iTunes but [TS]

00:47:23   yeah yeah Mac uses held by the way but [TS]

00:47:27   everything was brushed metal and it's [TS]

00:47:29   like and did the credit developer was [TS]

00:47:32   the more they want to make everything [TS]

00:47:33   brush but why did developers want to [TS]

00:47:34   make things brush Mel because all you [TS]

00:47:36   had to do was take a check boxes said [TS]

00:47:37   this window that I'm going to pop up on [TS]

00:47:39   the screen make it fresh metal and brush [TS]

00:47:40   metal was cool looking right that's an [TS]

00:47:42   example of a negative influence but in [TS]

00:47:44   general Apple gave you standard controls [TS]

00:47:46   and when interface builder you know it [TS]

00:47:48   would automatically snap to the metrics [TS]

00:47:49   they wanted and everything and you had [TS]

00:47:51   as examples their applications and it [TS]

00:47:53   was actually harder to make a [TS]

00:47:55   horrendously ugly application than to [TS]

00:47:57   just simply use the standard controls [TS]

00:47:58   they gave you and and copy one of [TS]

00:48:00   Apple's existing applications and the [TS]

00:48:02   same goes for the iPhone they made a set [TS]

00:48:04   of controls that was extremely limited [TS]

00:48:05   ridiculously limited especially with Mac [TS]

00:48:07   developers coming over to iOS to like so [TS]

00:48:09   this is all I get these this set of [TS]

00:48:10   buttons in the set of views like there [TS]

00:48:13   wasn't as many you know there was there [TS]

00:48:15   wasn't as much stuff there was very few [TS]

00:48:16   elements and they said alright well I'm [TS]

00:48:18   going to look for the Apple application [TS]

00:48:20   that's most like mine and I'll make mine [TS]

00:48:21   look sort of like that they led by [TS]

00:48:23   example by giving you controls and [TS]

00:48:25   widgets and layouts and and bundled [TS]

00:48:27   applications that look and behave a [TS]

00:48:28   certain way it I don't know if it shamed [TS]

00:48:31   the developers into changing their [TS]

00:48:32   attitudes but it's like they're leading [TS]

00:48:34   by example that that and that makes for [TS]

00:48:37   more successful applications because [TS]

00:48:38   developers will say all right well I'm [TS]

00:48:41   gonna if I had make this application [TS]

00:48:42   completely in isolation it would be an [TS]

00:48:44   ugly piece of crap but now that I've [TS]

00:48:45   seen everything that Apple's done and [TS]

00:48:47   the tool kits they're giving me to do to [TS]

00:48:49   build stuff my thing can't help but end [TS]

00:48:51   up being better looking [TS]

00:48:53   compare that to Windows where Microsoft [TS]

00:48:56   was content to continue to ship really [TS]

00:48:58   slapped together [TS]

00:48:59   bundled applications for years and years [TS]

00:49:01   be like Maps not broken you know don't [TS]

00:49:03   need to fix it and when they did change [TS]

00:49:04   things they would do things in a way [TS]

00:49:05   they weren't copyable by developers like [TS]

00:49:07   a I think office I believe is notorious [TS]

00:49:09   for not using standard controls like [TS]

00:49:12   there's what the windows UI looks like [TS]

00:49:13   and is what the office UI looks like and [TS]

00:49:15   then people would try to copy all the [TS]

00:49:17   office UI by doing custom controls and [TS]

00:49:19   stuff like that and some of them would [TS]

00:49:20   make it into the standard cool kits [TS]

00:49:21   toolkit but that's that's not a good way [TS]

00:49:23   to lead by example you know I mean so [TS]

00:49:25   well I think Apple is willing to fight [TS]

00:49:27   with sort of its users and its customers [TS]

00:49:31   a little bit more than most companies I [TS]

00:49:33   think that that is actually healthy [TS]

00:49:35   that's one part I like is that you [TS]

00:49:37   really shouldn't view you know the [TS]

00:49:39   classic adage the customer's always [TS]

00:49:41   right well I think the customer is [TS]

00:49:42   frequently very very wrong about what [TS]

00:49:44   they want to do and how they want it and [TS]

00:49:47   I think Apple isn't shy about saying [TS]

00:49:49   look you know we know what you want and [TS]

00:49:51   they I would say they get it right about [TS]

00:49:54   maybe 80 75 80 percent of the time which [TS]

00:49:56   is good and the advantage of that [TS]

00:49:59   approach is it sort of gets rid of the [TS]

00:50:01   Croft imagine if the customer was always [TS]

00:50:03   right you know that's how you get like [TS]

00:50:04   the classic example and I hate even [TS]

00:50:06   commerce inside all right the Homer [TS]

00:50:08   sentence car thank you there's a lot of [TS]

00:50:11   truth it let me give an example like [TS]

00:50:12   I've been spending a lot of time playing [TS]

00:50:14   Battlefield 3 and one of the best [TS]

00:50:16   sources for Battlefield 3 information [TS]

00:50:18   because it's a actually a very [TS]

00:50:19   complicated game and not all of it is [TS]

00:50:21   really documented um a lot of things you [TS]

00:50:24   can do it's kind of a sandbox kind of [TS]

00:50:26   game play and on the the battlefield 3 [TS]

00:50:29   reddit somebody was was the moaning the [TS]

00:50:33   state of the reddit because what happens [TS]

00:50:35   is when when the reddit gets really [TS]

00:50:36   popular this is what they call a [TS]

00:50:37   subreddit meaning if you go to [TS]

00:50:39   reddit.com it's any topic and there's [TS]

00:50:41   different reddit's for like politics and [TS]

00:50:43   you know all the stuff you took like on [TS]

00:50:44   the stack exchange network there's [TS]

00:50:45   there's you know gardening and bicycles [TS]

00:50:48   and all that stuff so this one's [TS]

00:50:49   dedicated to battlefield 3 and they were [TS]

00:50:51   complaining that all of a sudden with [TS]

00:50:53   all the influx of people they're playing [TS]

00:50:55   battlefield 3 got very popular and the [TS]

00:50:56   customers you know the people using the [TS]

00:50:58   reddit we're kind of abusing the reddit [TS]

00:51:01   like they were using it for a lot of [TS]

00:51:02   what's called meme comics you know where [TS]

00:51:05   you you copy-paste some template [TS]

00:51:07   and then you post in your little funny [TS]

00:51:08   thing and then people vote it up and [TS]

00:51:11   it's amusing but it tends to sort of [TS]

00:51:13   dominate the the information that's on [TS]

00:51:15   the site like you actually want to learn [TS]

00:51:16   about how do I play this game how can i [TS]

00:51:18   play this game better you know stuff [TS]

00:51:20   that's actually useful and the stuff [TS]

00:51:22   that the users think that they want is [TS]

00:51:24   this hilarious meme comic stuff you know [TS]

00:51:27   and other sort of negative patterns that [TS]

00:51:30   the community gets into and the the only [TS]

00:51:33   sort of redress you have against this is [TS]

00:51:36   actually moderation that's the the point [TS]

00:51:39   that they were making with his thread [TS]

00:51:40   it's like every other reddit that's had [TS]

00:51:41   this problem the only way to fix it is [TS]

00:51:43   not say oh we must do what the customer [TS]

00:51:45   wants well the customer wants to see [TS]

00:51:47   these hilarious comics so they must be [TS]

00:51:48   right right [TS]

00:51:49   no they're completely wrong like this is [TS]

00:51:53   the attitude that drives me crazy and [TS]

00:51:54   Apple is in some ways the antidote to [TS]

00:51:56   that say look you don't actually want to [TS]

00:51:58   do what your customers are telling you [TS]

00:51:59   to do and you don't actually want to do [TS]

00:52:01   what your developers are telling you to [TS]

00:52:02   do this is sort of a what's the right [TS]

00:52:05   word here John a negotiation between I [TS]

00:52:08   love I love how Stack Overflow is so has [TS]

00:52:10   so altered your worldview like I mean [TS]

00:52:12   it's not maybe it's not as noticeable to [TS]

00:52:15   like but you know I feel like I've been [TS]

00:52:16   living with you through this experience [TS]

00:52:18   is the very first Stack Overflow podcast [TS]

00:52:20   and like you know this you know this is [TS]

00:52:22   this you you deal with exact same things [TS]

00:52:24   that go all the time and now you can't [TS]

00:52:26   help but see other instances of the same [TS]

00:52:28   phenomenon that you either as cautionary [TS]

00:52:31   tales or as things you've actually dealt [TS]

00:52:33   with and stackoverflow again you're very [TS]

00:52:34   right that you know community that's you [TS]

00:52:39   leading by example works in some context [TS]

00:52:42   and not so much another so leading by [TS]

00:52:43   example net reddit thread not so much [TS]

00:52:45   but I would say that like this is a good [TS]

00:52:47   going by Stack Overflow a little bit [TS]

00:52:48   Stack Overflow is kind of the shining [TS]

00:52:50   star of the Stack Exchange Network and I [TS]

00:52:53   think it also has one of the strongest [TS]

00:52:55   cultures of you know unfortunately it [TS]

00:52:58   also has the highest traffic I was going [TS]

00:52:59   to say Stack Overflow doesn't need as [TS]

00:53:01   much moderation as other sides I'm sure [TS]

00:53:02   needs way more just because the traffic [TS]

00:53:03   load but particularly being the heart of [TS]

00:53:06   stack overflows participants they know [TS]

00:53:09   how it's supposed to work you know what [TS]

00:53:10   I mean it just so happens that it also [TS]

00:53:11   has massive traffic so it's also the [TS]

00:53:12   biggest moderation headache but compare [TS]

00:53:15   it to like a newly-born area 51 site [TS]

00:53:17   where there's some people talking about [TS]

00:53:19   cooking or something and they don't [TS]

00:53:20   know how this whole stack exchange [TS]

00:53:22   engine works and everything that culture [TS]

00:53:25   is so much stronger on stackoverflow [TS]

00:53:26   because it's more established its older [TS]

00:53:28   the people there know how it's supposed [TS]

00:53:29   to work and if you want to be part of [TS]

00:53:33   that system you will become part of that [TS]

00:53:34   culture whereas on a random reddit page [TS]

00:53:37   there's no real way to establish that [TS]

00:53:39   culture although you do have hacker news [TS]

00:53:42   is a better example because it was a [TS]

00:53:43   smaller site and they did have a culture [TS]

00:53:45   of a different culture than reddit but [TS]

00:53:46   as hacker news has become more and more [TS]

00:53:48   popular you see it sort of distant [TS]

00:53:50   descending into reddit madness now the [TS]

00:53:53   the religion aspect of this is really [TS]

00:53:54   interesting because you do have to have [TS]

00:53:55   the word culture keeps coming up and I [TS]

00:53:57   think for good reason because it is true [TS]

00:54:00   like the original Stack Exchange model [TS]

00:54:02   that the Joel was sort of putting forth [TS]

00:54:04   was that people would just pay money and [TS]

00:54:06   they get a Stack Exchange and one of the [TS]

00:54:08   reasons one of the biggest reasons [TS]

00:54:09   actually in my opinion that didn't work [TS]

00:54:11   was the people starting these had no [TS]

00:54:12   idea what the proper culture was for [TS]

00:54:14   these Q&A sites and they got used in [TS]

00:54:16   really bizarre ways that didn't actually [TS]

00:54:18   work well with the engine because they [TS]

00:54:20   didn't understand sort of what the goals [TS]

00:54:23   were and a lot of what we do and one [TS]

00:54:24   thing that's really surprised me is [TS]

00:54:26   basically it's a culture indoctrination [TS]

00:54:28   machine you know it's the software works [TS]

00:54:30   a certain way you can you can pervert it [TS]

00:54:32   to do these other things but you [TS]

00:54:34   probably shouldn't you know and and and [TS]

00:54:37   there are other ways in which the engine [TS]

00:54:39   is actually evolving like as we get new [TS]

00:54:40   topics we have sort of we push out the [TS]

00:54:42   engine in different ways to accommodate [TS]

00:54:43   these new the needs of these new topics [TS]

00:54:45   but you still have to stay on track like [TS]

00:54:47   my classic example for this is you know [TS]

00:54:49   we're building a truck you know and you [TS]

00:54:51   can't turn a truck into a car you can [TS]

00:54:53   modify the truck you can get an extended [TS]

00:54:54   cab you can there's other truck like [TS]

00:54:56   things you can do to a truck but you [TS]

00:54:57   can't say you know let's just cover up [TS]

00:54:59   the back and then put seats in there if [TS]

00:55:02   and they want to adjust a bus right [TS]

00:55:04   you've kind of perverted the nature of [TS]

00:55:06   what the truck is at that point and [TS]

00:55:09   that's a lot of what we're doing at this [TS]

00:55:11   point is is in doctoring people in the [TS]

00:55:12   truck culture saying you know hey this [TS]

00:55:13   is a truck it's good at certain things [TS]

00:55:15   it's not good at other things and that's [TS]

00:55:17   okay right like and and one of my [TS]

00:55:19   favorite Steve Jobs quotes is the one [TS]

00:55:21   about you know saying no you know like [TS]

00:55:22   learning how to build a feature and [TS]

00:55:24   ironically he said this about iTunes [TS]

00:55:26   which now is like the ultimate example [TS]

00:55:28   of the opposite of this which is saying [TS]

00:55:29   yes to everything and ending up with a [TS]

00:55:31   massive kitchen cing bloat which is more [TS]

00:55:33   than a little ironic [TS]

00:55:34   but originally when iTunes was launched [TS]

00:55:36   Steve Jobs said you know the way to [TS]

00:55:38   build a product is not to is to say no [TS]

00:55:41   to everything except the most essential [TS]

00:55:42   things and in sadly that got lost in [TS]

00:55:46   iTunes but it is true as a general you [TS]

00:55:48   know truism as a way to build products [TS]

00:55:50   as a way to build hardware and I you [TS]

00:55:53   know acknowledging like we're not going [TS]

00:55:54   to do X you know at all it's just once [TS]

00:55:56   that was a if Joel was here he would he [TS]

00:55:58   would do the Agni thing because that's [TS]

00:56:00   what the situation with iTunes was you [TS]

00:56:01   ain't gonna need that jobs and apples [TS]

00:56:04   philosophy as always you know ship early [TS]

00:56:07   get the thing out but remove everything [TS]

00:56:08   and only sort of demand page in the [TS]

00:56:10   features that you are going to need [TS]

00:56:11   don't assume oh we have to have you know [TS]

00:56:13   a visualizer and a thing to print out CD [TS]

00:56:18   labels and all you know if people I [TS]

00:56:20   forget sorry I forget about tunes had a [TS]

00:56:22   visualizer and first version but they [TS]

00:56:24   stripped out a lot of the features from [TS]

00:56:26   sound Jam which was a drug it was [TS]

00:56:27   derived from and then slowly added them [TS]

00:56:29   back as sort of the reason or demand [TS]

00:56:32   came down the course then they kept [TS]

00:56:33   adding and made iTunes do many more [TS]

00:56:35   things that it was supposed to [TS]

00:56:36   originally do which is a problem but [TS]

00:56:38   that tends to be their philosophy it's [TS]

00:56:40   better not to guess what people are [TS]

00:56:43   going to need but just put in the things [TS]

00:56:45   you know make up the central core of the [TS]

00:56:47   product and you did the same thing with [TS]

00:56:48   the Stack Exchange engine it didn't have [TS]

00:56:51   as many features as it has now you [TS]

00:56:52   didn't think oh well of course people [TS]

00:56:53   are need to comment on questions to know [TS]

00:56:55   those weren't there it turned out that [TS]

00:56:57   eventually painfully it seemed like we [TS]

00:57:00   did need those comments too as sort of a [TS]

00:57:02   steam escape valve for activity that [TS]

00:57:05   would otherwise go in worst directions [TS]

00:57:06   right but you didn't add them from the [TS]

00:57:08   beginning you didn't make a giant thing [TS]

00:57:09   with every feature you'd ever seen on a [TS]

00:57:11   forum bolt and board piece of software [TS]

00:57:13   and everything so now we have a superset [TS]

00:57:15   of all features of all competing forum [TS]

00:57:16   products you had a very very small [TS]

00:57:18   subset of the features and only the ones [TS]

00:57:20   that you thought you needed right well I [TS]

00:57:22   think it's the bravery of walking up to [TS]

00:57:23   a gentle customer I mean in this case [TS]

00:57:26   it's less clear because I'm actually [TS]

00:57:27   paying us money we'd have the Careers [TS]

00:57:28   product and saying look you know you [TS]

00:57:31   should go elsewhere like we're not [TS]

00:57:33   trying to be rude about this but what [TS]

00:57:34   you want there's a whole internet for [TS]

00:57:37   and I have to say this to people I'm [TS]

00:57:39   like look there's a whole internet you [TS]

00:57:41   know and and we don't guarantee that [TS]

00:57:43   we're going to actually do what you want [TS]

00:57:44   us to do we're going to guarantee that [TS]

00:57:46   we'll do a certain subset of things [TS]

00:57:48   but we get pushed back on this still all [TS]

00:57:50   the time and I think nusers are [TS]

00:57:51   constantly coming in that see that the [TS]

00:57:54   irony is they see that's working really [TS]

00:57:55   well and then they realize they can ask [TS]

00:57:57   anything like you go on stackoverflow [TS]

00:57:58   right now and literally ask anything and [TS]

00:58:00   get probably the best answer you'd find [TS]

00:58:02   on the Internet I would guess because we [TS]

00:58:04   haven't said I'll get closes off topic [TS]

00:58:05   about three seconds later but your [TS]

00:58:07   answer right but but it worked like you [TS]

00:58:09   if you permitted that like you would [TS]

00:58:11   eventually go in these really crazy [TS]

00:58:12   directions and it was going in those [TS]

00:58:13   crazy directions you know that's one of [TS]

00:58:15   the things we had to correct for was [TS]

00:58:16   that we didn't realize we had built the [TS]

00:58:18   world's best system for identifying the [TS]

00:58:20   most hilarious programmer cartoon in the [TS]

00:58:22   world yeah like we still have the best [TS]

00:58:24   system in the world for that I'm [TS]

00:58:26   surprised and in chime in with his sorry [TS]

00:58:28   to lose you as a listener thing another [TS]

00:58:29   another perfect example of that are [TS]

00:58:32   dance humorous reply to anyone who makes [TS]

00:58:34   a complaint about any of the shows is [TS]

00:58:36   sorry to lose you as a listener and now [TS]

00:58:38   he's doing procedures the most at the [TS]

00:58:39   time but it's the same type of thing [TS]

00:58:41   that if people want a certain thing like [TS]

00:58:44   a lot of people said to me I'd listen to [TS]

00:58:46   your podcast but I really wish it was [TS]

00:58:47   like 15 minutes long because my [TS]

00:58:48   communiques not that long and I don't [TS]

00:58:49   like stopping shows in the middle right [TS]

00:58:52   let's just create that one a 15 minute [TS]

00:58:54   podcast mine's not it you're going to [TS]

00:58:56   have to go elsewhere right I mean that's [TS]

00:58:58   part of it a lot of the time when I [TS]

00:58:59   respond that way it's people to saying [TS]

00:59:01   that this is why your show sucks or why [TS]

00:59:04   your show suck or whatever it is and and [TS]

00:59:07   and they're basically saying this is why [TS]

00:59:08   it's not perfect for me [TS]

00:59:10   it should be changed and the fact that [TS]

00:59:12   it's not perfect for me it it that's why [TS]

00:59:15   it sucks it's and it doesn't fill my [TS]

00:59:16   particular need I so it if you don't [TS]

00:59:19   change it then you know I'm not gonna [TS]

00:59:22   listen anymore as sort of mobile you [TS]

00:59:23   know the podcast is Jeff said does a [TS]

00:59:25   whole internet out there this is not [TS]

00:59:26   what you want is not like you no one's [TS]

00:59:29   holding a gun to your head and saying [TS]

00:59:30   you need to listen to our long podcast [TS]

00:59:31   again when hour-long podcast don't [TS]

00:59:33   listen to them there are shorter ones go [TS]

00:59:35   fun you know man I genuinely handle I [TS]

00:59:37   genuinely am sorry that they you know [TS]

00:59:38   that we weren't able to produce [TS]

00:59:40   something that they liked and I do feel [TS]

00:59:43   bad but what they're basically saying is [TS]

00:59:45   here's why I'm not going to listen [TS]

00:59:46   anymore and and I do feel bad that they [TS]

00:59:48   don't like it but this is this is what [TS]

00:59:50   it is and we're not necessarily going to [TS]

00:59:51   make that change and I'm there they're [TS]

00:59:54   sort of painted into a corner I mean [TS]

00:59:56   it's a selfish request I mean this is [TS]

00:59:57   another thing that we ask on Stack [TS]

00:59:59   Overflow thank you [TS]

00:59:59   Overflow thank you [TS]

01:00:00   Changez when you're asking a question [TS]

01:00:01   you need to ask it in such a way that [TS]

01:00:03   you pitch it like how can this actually [TS]

01:00:06   be useful other people okay for you your [TS]

01:00:08   commute is 15 minutes right and you know [TS]

01:00:10   maybe there's this big audience of [TS]

01:00:12   people like if you want to build a case [TS]

01:00:13   for your position you need to make it [TS]

01:00:16   clear that like wow there's look at all [TS]

01:00:18   these people that have 15 minutes right [TS]

01:00:20   like like you got to sell it you know [TS]

01:00:21   you got to build up support for your [TS]

01:00:24   question and extend like this isn't just [TS]

01:00:26   my problem this is the problem of many [TS]

01:00:27   people who listen to your podcast and [TS]

01:00:29   that's the difference between credit [TS]

01:00:30   criticism and one that's just oh my [TS]

01:00:33   personal little pet peeve with your [TS]

01:00:34   thing is X I mean that that happens all [TS]

01:00:38   the time on the Stack Exchange in Stack [TS]

01:00:40   Overflow Network and something again [TS]

01:00:42   part of the culture it's like ask the [TS]

01:00:43   question in such a way that you will [TS]

01:00:45   actually pitch it to other people they [TS]

01:00:47   will believe in your problems though I [TS]

01:00:48   have that problem too and or at least [TS]

01:00:51   they could see how someone can have that [TS]

01:00:52   problem and not just you in your room [TS]

01:00:54   you know building your one lab it's like [TS]

01:00:56   how is this going to be helpful to the [TS]

01:00:58   world and that has to be that sort of [TS]

01:01:00   the overriding concern is like when [TS]

01:01:02   you're asking a question you're asking [TS]

01:01:03   not just for yourself but on behalf of [TS]

01:01:04   everyone that has that problem or has [TS]

01:01:06   that criticism or has that concern in [TS]

01:01:08   the world for the more people believe [TS]

01:01:10   that the better off you're going to be [TS]

01:01:13   one more topic I want to touch on [TS]

01:01:15   because it actually is timely and it's [TS]

01:01:16   very related to what we've been talking [TS]

01:01:18   about so recently in the Apple community [TS]

01:01:20   enough Jeff is seeing these stories [TS]

01:01:22   filtering into his world people have [TS]

01:01:24   been talking about apples restriction [TS]

01:01:26   for Mac applications that are sold [TS]

01:01:29   through the Mac App Store now mat all [TS]

01:01:31   the Mac applications don't have to be [TS]

01:01:33   sewn to the mac app so this is for Jeff [TS]

01:01:35   sorry listeners but if you choose to [TS]

01:01:37   sell through the night cap store you get [TS]

01:01:38   many advantages primary one which is [TS]

01:01:40   that it's much easier for users to [TS]

01:01:41   install an update and you get a lot of [TS]

01:01:43   free you get in users faces you get a [TS]

01:01:46   lot of free advertising and awareness [TS]

01:01:47   from being in a Mac App Store so as it [TS]

01:01:49   turns out most Mac developers now have [TS]

01:01:52   either the application only in the Mac [TS]

01:01:54   App Store or in both because you just [TS]

01:01:56   can't ignore that market you just make [TS]

01:01:57   too much money on it so when line was [TS]

01:01:59   released actually before we saliste at [TS]

01:02:01   the Worldwide Developers Conference they [TS]

01:02:03   said we have this new sandboxing [TS]

01:02:05   framework for your applications which is [TS]

01:02:06   a little bit similar to the sandboxing [TS]

01:02:08   framework they have for applications in [TS]

01:02:09   iOS and I said so we would like your Mac [TS]

01:02:10   applications to be sandbox and here are [TS]

01:02:13   the reasons why [TS]

01:02:13   XYZ security that's not the other thing [TS]

01:02:15   and oh by the way we're going to require [TS]

01:02:18   by November that if you sell a Mac [TS]

01:02:20   application to the Mac App Store [TS]

01:02:22   it must be sandboxed and this was [TS]

01:02:24   announced in June or something so [TS]

01:02:26   November seem like a long time away but [TS]

01:02:28   here we are and on November 1st [TS]

01:02:30   developers knew the state was coming and [TS]

01:02:32   I've been kind of panicking because [TS]

01:02:34   they're like my application can't work [TS]

01:02:36   with sandbox in the way it works or this [TS]

01:02:38   thing you're forbidding me from doing I [TS]

01:02:39   need to do for the functionality of my [TS]

01:02:41   application Apple was like well we're [TS]

01:02:42   going to have temporary exclusions if [TS]

01:02:44   you really need us to do something [TS]

01:02:45   before you can fix your app will let [TS]

01:02:47   your app do this thing but eventually [TS]

01:02:48   it's going to go away and they're like [TS]

01:02:49   temporary this is the main thing my [TS]

01:02:50   application does a great example is a [TS]

01:02:52   FTP application like transmit that [TS]

01:02:55   obviously shows a local view of your [TS]

01:02:57   local file system then you transfer [TS]

01:02:59   files to your remote file system just [TS]

01:03:00   typical file transfer app well having an [TS]

01:03:02   arbitrary view of the local file system [TS]

01:03:04   is forbidden by sandboxing well done can [TS]

01:03:06   I can I make one observation there and [TS]

01:03:08   you it's like there shouldn't be a file [TS]

01:03:09   system I would say from a consumers [TS]

01:03:11   perspective the error there is file [TS]

01:03:12   system needs to go away [TS]

01:03:14   oh yeah no division you see where you [TS]

01:03:16   see where Apple is going with this I [TS]

01:03:17   mean you don't have the total Asian it [TS]

01:03:18   just look at iOS right yep right right [TS]

01:03:20   no so I mean it's clear what Apple's [TS]

01:03:22   doing and that's why most Mac users for [TS]

01:03:24   like you know Oh sandboxing good for [TS]

01:03:25   security it's like it's like chroot for [TS]

01:03:27   the UNIX nerds or whatever it's not the [TS]

01:03:28   same thing exactly but you know but [TS]

01:03:30   isolation is good it makes install and [TS]

01:03:32   uninstall easier and stuff like that but [TS]

01:03:34   people have existing businesses and [TS]

01:03:35   existing applications that are having [TS]

01:03:37   difficulty working with the madcap story [TS]

01:03:38   so well I'll find well then don't don't [TS]

01:03:40   put your app in the Mac App Store well [TS]

01:03:41   at this point from a business [TS]

01:03:42   perspective it's it's a big hit not to [TS]

01:03:44   have your Mac at your app and the Mac [TS]

01:03:46   App Store so the November first came and [TS]

01:03:49   I believe on November 2nd Apple sent out [TS]

01:03:51   an email to all its developers that said [TS]

01:03:53   we're extending into March or was it was [TS]

01:03:55   it March chatroom can confirm edition [TS]

01:03:57   written down this data minutes but I [TS]

01:03:58   believe this is we're extending it to [TS]

01:04:00   March 2012 so you have we have more time [TS]

01:04:02   to work this out now this is a great [TS]

01:04:03   example of both the good and the bad of [TS]

01:04:07   the developer relationship with Apple so [TS]

01:04:08   Apple makes this announcement and in [TS]

01:04:10   June and developers go alright I'll try [TS]

01:04:12   to start doing this and then as you [TS]

01:04:13   start implementing this you realize did [TS]

01:04:15   they have entitlements like you know [TS]

01:04:17   entitlements your application that it [TS]

01:04:18   needs to be able to is the network needs [TS]

01:04:19   to be able to use the camera needs to be [TS]

01:04:20   able to access you know X Y & Z they say [TS]

01:04:23   well there's no entitlement for the [TS]

01:04:24   thing in my application needs to do and [TS]

01:04:25   it's not a frill it's like the core [TS]

01:04:26   functionality of [TS]

01:04:27   application as Jeff pointed out you know [TS]

01:04:29   there's the Metta argument of like well [TS]

01:04:31   if you sell an FTP app that's a dead end [TS]

01:04:32   because really in the long run we [TS]

01:04:34   shouldn't be looking at the file system [TS]

01:04:35   and FTP is archaic and bla bla bla bla [TS]

01:04:37   but the bottom line is that if you have [TS]

01:04:38   a well-known popular ftp app and it [TS]

01:04:40   makes you a lot of money and people [TS]

01:04:41   still need to use it you're not going to [TS]

01:04:43   say well we can't we're getting at orcas [TS]

01:04:45   and boxing so well forget it we're not [TS]

01:04:46   going to have an AI to be a penny more [TS]

01:04:47   right there's always the Windows app [TS]

01:04:50   store yeah and so and this is true for [TS]

01:04:54   all sorts of applications and it's easy [TS]

01:04:56   matru from day one in the Mac App Store [TS]

01:04:57   like a super-duper a great disk cloning [TS]

01:05:00   application needs complete access to the [TS]

01:05:03   disk and needs administrator access [TS]

01:05:04   bussines to clone the entire disk and [TS]

01:05:06   applications that require administrator [TS]

01:05:08   access can't be in the Mac App Store [TS]

01:05:09   period never have been allowed so super [TS]

01:05:11   duper was never in the Mac App Store I'm [TS]

01:05:12   probably never will be and now this is [TS]

01:05:13   just ratcheting him down even more [TS]

01:05:15   alright so as developers are finding [TS]

01:05:18   these limitations they're complaining to [TS]

01:05:19   Apple and the developers frustration is [TS]

01:05:20   we just feel like we're checking our [TS]

01:05:22   complaints over wall I filed a bug but [TS]

01:05:24   there's going to be no response and what [TS]

01:05:26   do I do like if November first rolls [TS]

01:05:28   around I still haven't heard back from [TS]

01:05:29   you does that mean my I have to gets [TS]

01:05:30   booted out of the App Store and I [TS]

01:05:31   stopped making money you know so there's [TS]

01:05:33   lots of panic from the developers and [TS]

01:05:35   this lack of communication is continual [TS]

01:05:36   source of frustration and you could see [TS]

01:05:38   as a november date first date approached [TS]

01:05:40   if you had tracked us on twitter the [TS]

01:05:42   number of angry upset or fearful tweets [TS]

01:05:44   going back and forth between people [TS]

01:05:46   known to be Apple engineers and people [TS]

01:05:47   in Apple developer relations and [TS]

01:05:48   individual Mac developers were just [TS]

01:05:50   ramping up to kind of a fever pitch and [TS]

01:05:52   getting kind of heated and everything [TS]

01:05:53   and then the delay email came out uh but [TS]

01:05:57   the delay you know don't worry anyone [TS]

01:06:00   Apple working on this and the delay is [TS]

01:06:02   an acknowledgement that if we just stuck [TS]

01:06:04   to our November first date it would be [TS]

01:06:06   bad right [TS]

01:06:07   well what do you even do here I mean [TS]

01:06:09   this is just all trying to retrofit iOS [TS]

01:06:13   onto OS X OS well you know it that what [TS]

01:06:15   Apple's trying to do is make what it [TS]

01:06:17   considers progress on the globe we all [TS]

01:06:18   would consider progress because uh [TS]

01:06:19   there's a lot been said about the [TS]

01:06:21   security argument in terms of oh you [TS]

01:06:22   know if your application gets exploited [TS]

01:06:24   but you know infected with malware I [TS]

01:06:26   can't do any damage because they can't [TS]

01:06:28   just write over every file on by your [TS]

01:06:29   user right which is just what a regular [TS]

01:06:31   Mac application you know so you're it's [TS]

01:06:32   confined just like an iOS app escape on [TS]

01:06:34   an iOS app really can't just destroy the [TS]

01:06:37   entire system because it's very tightly [TS]

01:06:38   locked down I said well let's make at [TS]

01:06:40   Mac applications that are [TS]

01:06:41   more tightly lock down at the very least [TS]

01:06:42   than they are today right difference [TS]

01:06:45   really like that's a radical change of [TS]

01:06:48   the contract I mean I don't disagree [TS]

01:06:50   with it actually but I think for iOS it [TS]

01:06:52   was understandable because a you're [TS]

01:06:53   dealing with platform that originally [TS]

01:06:55   had can you remember this 128 Meg's of [TS]

01:06:56   memory that seems crazy now right that [TS]

01:06:59   was that I believe that was was at the [TS]

01:07:00   original minimum for Mac OS 10 someone [TS]

01:07:02   in the chatroom can look it up but yeah [TS]

01:07:04   those were yeah so those restrictions [TS]

01:07:06   made more sense plus it's your phone [TS]

01:07:07   when your phone can't be rebooting while [TS]

01:07:09   you're calling 911 or something [TS]

01:07:10   ridiculous like that but I think the [TS]

01:07:13   argument is much weaker on on you know [TS]

01:07:15   OS 10 because you know this is a general [TS]

01:07:19   purpose operating system well the [TS]

01:07:21   implementation is week or two though [TS]

01:07:22   it's not required it's not as even in [TS]

01:07:25   the most restrictive mode it's not as [TS]

01:07:27   restrictive as it is in iOS like Apple [TS]

01:07:29   has been trying to strike the balance if [TS]

01:07:31   they understand you can't just take the [TS]

01:07:33   rules that apply in iOS and just BAM [TS]

01:07:34   apply them to Mac OS then you have to [TS]

01:07:35   have like oh yeah well it's optional and [TS]

01:07:38   it's optional and it's weaker and it's [TS]

01:07:40   optional and weaker and you know and you [TS]

01:07:42   know they try to use the carrot and the [TS]

01:07:43   stick I was staying in my line review [TS]

01:07:45   that the carrot is your applications [TS]

01:07:47   will be easier to install and uninstall [TS]

01:07:48   you will have fewer support problems [TS]

01:07:50   like all the advantages of iOS [TS]

01:07:52   applications the things you don't have [TS]

01:07:53   to deal with that you do have to deal [TS]

01:07:54   with when supporting a Mac user like oh [TS]

01:07:56   they decide to move something as a [TS]

01:07:57   library folder or the excellent deleted [TS]

01:07:59   something you put in the dot you know [TS]

01:08:00   because they have free rein to the file [TS]

01:08:01   system you've seen people just like I [TS]

01:08:02   don't know if this files let me delete [TS]

01:08:03   it my mother's great at that I didn't [TS]

01:08:05   know what it was so I deleted it you [TS]

01:08:06   know and then you own those files so you [TS]

01:08:07   can do it but you just broke your [TS]

01:08:09   application because of it right by the [TS]

01:08:11   way what it was 128 Meg's of RAM and [TS]

01:08:14   required four gigs of hard disk space [TS]

01:08:16   yeah [TS]

01:08:16   so they're trying to they're trying to [TS]

01:08:20   give benefits to the customer that's the [TS]

01:08:23   carrot you know users will like your [TS]

01:08:25   application better because look how much [TS]

01:08:27   consumers like the iOS apps they're not [TS]

01:08:29   as fearful about installing and [TS]

01:08:30   installing software for example the Mac [TS]

01:08:31   App Store was trying to bring that to [TS]

01:08:32   the Mac platform like people you know if [TS]

01:08:34   they're not as fearful about installing [TS]

01:08:35   and installing they're more likely to [TS]

01:08:36   make purchases they're more likely to go [TS]

01:08:38   Amazon one clear interest wait a minute [TS]

01:08:40   is there really fear about the Mac App [TS]

01:08:42   Store right now is this really a [TS]

01:08:43   credible no no I say fear before the Mac [TS]

01:08:46   App Store like rebel with the App Store [TS]

01:08:47   the but why Titan like it doesn't is [TS]

01:08:50   there a problem [TS]

01:08:51   I don't know so the fear was before [TS]

01:08:53   there was a Mac App Store [TS]

01:08:54   if fewer people were inclined to install [TS]

01:08:57   software because it was a scary process [TS]

01:08:59   you had to download a thing would [TS]

01:09:00   download a disk image or a zip file and [TS]

01:09:02   you have to drag into your Applications [TS]

01:09:03   folder and this all sounds really easy [TS]

01:09:05   but it is totally not easy that barrier [TS]

01:09:07   between clicking a download link on a [TS]

01:09:10   you know a web page and getting the [TS]

01:09:11   application installed at Windows has the [TS]

01:09:13   culture of installers involved in you've [TS]

01:09:14   got the saved document or run it and all [TS]

01:09:16   that stuff video in that if you've dealt [TS]

01:09:18   with Windows support its difficulty of [TS]

01:09:19   people to click on the right button the [TS]

01:09:21   three times to get the InstallShield [TS]

01:09:22   wizard thing to run right but the Mac [TS]

01:09:24   always had the drag-and-drop install [TS]

01:09:25   because at application packages which [TS]

01:09:27   were a big step up over installers but [TS]

01:09:29   you still have to get the guy to [TS]

01:09:30   understand that this little zip thing is [TS]

01:09:33   going to expand into an icon that's your [TS]

01:09:34   application you got to drag that into [TS]

01:09:35   your Applications folder and that's just [TS]

01:09:37   a big barrier the Mac App Store [TS]

01:09:38   eliminated those barriers at least so [TS]

01:09:40   now it's like it's like iOS go to this [TS]

01:09:42   thing click the thing you want click the [TS]

01:09:44   Buy button and it's like ready to go you [TS]

01:09:46   know [TS]

01:09:47   yeah well sandboxing is trying to bring [TS]

01:09:49   that further not only is it ready to go [TS]

01:09:50   but when you run that application it [TS]

01:09:52   won't spray files all over your disk you [TS]

01:09:53   don't even need to know where the files [TS]

01:09:54   are you don't you don't concern yourself [TS]

01:09:56   with that just like on iOS we will [TS]

01:09:57   manage that stuff you can't mess it up [TS]

01:09:58   it's completely hidden from you the [TS]

01:10:00   library folders invisible you know [TS]

01:10:02   that's that's the benefit that Apple is [TS]

01:10:04   trying to give by by doing the Mac App [TS]

01:10:07   Store and doing sandboxing so one of the [TS]

01:10:09   other things about Steve Jobs that I [TS]

01:10:11   found really strange was the way he [TS]

01:10:13   would just randomly respond to some [TS]

01:10:14   emails that were sent to him like sort [TS]

01:10:17   of just on a whim and but one of the [TS]

01:10:20   ones I really enjoyed that he did [TS]

01:10:21   respond to was somebody and you probably [TS]

01:10:24   remember this email remember the actual [TS]

01:10:25   query that prompted it was he his [TS]

01:10:28   response the tone of it was basically [TS]

01:10:29   that the PC world is going away and [TS]

01:10:32   there's a lot of fear around the fact [TS]

01:10:34   that hey there's not going to be a file [TS]

01:10:36   system B you're always going to be on [TS]

01:10:37   closed devices that this is sort of the [TS]

01:10:40   new normal and that it's hard for [TS]

01:10:42   companies and people to adjust to this [TS]

01:10:44   and I think that's sort of what we're [TS]

01:10:46   seeing here is is basically if you look [TS]

01:10:47   under the subtext of this is that Mac [TS]

01:10:50   books should not exist and I agree with [TS]

01:10:52   that i think the only devices that [TS]

01:10:54   should be out there iOS devices period i [TS]

01:10:56   really believe that's the future that's [TS]

01:10:58   directly where we're headed is like [TS]

01:11:00   everything will be an Xbox 360 [TS]

01:11:02   everything will be an iPhone everything [TS]

01:11:03   will be an iPad this concept of general [TS]

01:11:05   computing is [TS]

01:11:07   extremely going to be extremely [TS]

01:11:08   specialized extremely rare people will [TS]

01:11:10   not buy general-purpose computers [TS]

01:11:12   anymore they will buy devices that do [TS]

01:11:14   sort of a fixed number of things that [TS]

01:11:15   will have an app store where you can buy [TS]

01:11:16   more that is the future and that's where [TS]

01:11:20   we're going and I think your values your [TS]

01:11:22   truck analogy - is that the same email [TS]

01:11:23   or maybe it was another thing we were [TS]

01:11:25   quote from you saying well existing [TS]

01:11:27   computers like Mac's are kind of like [TS]

01:11:28   big trucks but not everybody needs a [TS]

01:11:30   truck only few people need a big [TS]

01:11:31   heavy-duty truck most people just need a [TS]

01:11:33   sedan and that's iOS this is something [TS]

01:11:35   that he said a d8 if I remember right [TS]

01:11:37   yeah many years ago it's clear where [TS]

01:11:39   we're going and iOS I was great because [TS]

01:11:41   it's like we don't have to imagine what [TS]

01:11:43   the future is going to look like we have [TS]

01:11:45   a brand new platform with no legacy [TS]

01:11:46   constraints and we can say this is where [TS]

01:11:48   we'd like to go and an iOS has proven [TS]

01:11:50   that all those things they thought would [TS]

01:11:51   be good for consumers and good for [TS]

01:11:53   developers actually are when you make it [TS]

01:11:54   really easy to buy stuff people buy [TS]

01:11:56   stuff that makes tons of money for [TS]

01:11:57   developers make tons of money for Apple [TS]

01:11:59   people love the device they buy it you [TS]

01:12:01   know how many people installed apps on [TS]

01:12:02   their cell phones before iPhone came out [TS]

01:12:04   and but you know so this is a test bed [TS]

01:12:07   for all these things but you've got [TS]

01:12:08   these legacy platforms they've got Mac [TS]

01:12:09   OS 10 how do you get from there to here [TS]

01:12:11   you don't just abandon it on day one you [TS]

01:12:13   try to bring it over and that's what [TS]

01:12:15   Apple is trying to do but well I would [TS]

01:12:17   argue their crippling a little bit [TS]

01:12:18   intentionally but that's okay because [TS]

01:12:20   that's what you have to because there's [TS]

01:12:21   this huge tension between the new world [TS]

01:12:23   in the old world like that other new [TS]

01:12:24   world versus old world blog post that I [TS]

01:12:26   thought was very probably my favorite [TS]

01:12:28   blog post on the whole transition that [TS]

01:12:29   we're going to growing now was the old [TS]

01:12:30   world the new world so the old world is [TS]

01:12:33   general-purpose computing you install an [TS]

01:12:34   operating system it could be any [TS]

01:12:35   operating system right John it could be [TS]

01:12:36   Linux it could be Windows it could be [TS]

01:12:38   Mac if you don't have the hardware but [TS]

01:12:40   you know dongle requirements to install [TS]

01:12:43   OS 10 that is completely going away uh [TS]

01:12:46   and I think right rightfully so for most [TS]

01:12:48   people that's just you know the file [TS]

01:12:50   system I mean that's anytime the word [TS]

01:12:52   file system comes up it's like you're [TS]

01:12:53   going in the wrong direction like files [TS]

01:12:54   is just a broken model for 99% of [TS]

01:12:57   humanity so anything that involves a [TS]

01:12:59   file system that's visible it's wrong [TS]

01:13:02   it's bad needs to go away and this is a [TS]

01:13:04   painful transition right this is like [TS]

01:13:06   the argument that Jonathan Coulton makes [TS]

01:13:08   about being a parents like you die your [TS]

01:13:09   old life dies you you stop living and [TS]

01:13:11   you're reborn as something else and this [TS]

01:13:13   is not a comfortable process interesting [TS]

01:13:15   that ice was ruining everything but in [TS]

01:13:16   the nicest way in some ways well [TS]

01:13:19   hopefully it's not just well [TS]

01:13:20   you know TOEFL ela very least will be a [TS]

01:13:22   Coke Pepsi thing one thing I worry about [TS]

01:13:24   is you know we're heading to our console [TS]

01:13:26   of vacation is what I call this where [TS]

01:13:27   everything is a closed ecosystem because [TS]

01:13:29   it just works better everything is [TS]

01:13:30   controlled everything is installed on [TS]

01:13:32   the same hardware it's ultimately a [TS]

01:13:33   better experience as long as the pricing [TS]

01:13:35   is kept reasonable and nobody gouges and [TS]

01:13:37   thoroughly and I do think it's a better [TS]

01:13:39   experience for everybody well [TS]

01:13:40   unfortunately consoles are moving in the [TS]

01:13:42   other direction but the you download the [TS]

01:13:44   game but you need a system update and [TS]

01:13:45   download through these three patches and [TS]

01:13:47   there's some DLC and oh don't even talk [TS]

01:13:49   to me update my friggin apps right now [TS]

01:13:51   so you think try to plantation three [TS]

01:13:54   game how long do you have to wait before [TS]

01:13:55   you can play the game yeah true true it [TS]

01:13:58   doesn't block you from from telling the [TS]

01:14:00   app but I think right now I have like [TS]

01:14:01   ten Oh actually the the app store just [TS]

01:14:04   crashed on laughs oh it keeps doing that [TS]

01:14:06   like I go into the Updates tab and it [TS]

01:14:08   just crashes back out let's be a bug [TS]

01:14:10   alright let's do our last sponsors [TS]

01:14:12   MailChimp commies email newsletters I [TS]

01:14:14   help you design newsletters share them [TS]

01:14:16   on social networks integrate with [TS]

01:14:17   services you already use track your [TS]

01:14:19   results it's your own personal [TS]

01:14:20   publishing platform that lets you send [TS]

01:14:22   12 thousand emails per month every month [TS]

01:14:24   for free forever get tons of great [TS]

01:14:27   resources to help you make really [TS]

01:14:28   awesome newsletters over at [TS]

01:14:30   mailchimp.com never been a better time [TS]

01:14:32   to sign up one final direction I want to [TS]

01:14:36   go in that came up on Twitter was that [TS]

01:14:38   one thing I think it's really working in [TS]

01:14:40   Apple's favor is that that almost [TS]

01:14:43   everything is a web app now there's [TS]

01:14:44   there's real credibility to this claim [TS]

01:14:46   that eventually you'll be able to do [TS]

01:14:48   everything important in the web browser [TS]

01:14:50   with some rare exceptions I do believe [TS]

01:14:53   in this and I think that's another [TS]

01:14:55   reason that that there's two reasons [TS]

01:14:57   that I personally would say that Apple [TS]

01:14:58   at least as far as the MacBook line I'm [TS]

01:15:00   not considering iOS that's a whole [TS]

01:15:01   different lineage but as far as the Mac [TS]

01:15:03   books and things like that go the switch [TS]

01:15:05   to x86 let them get pricing way way down [TS]

01:15:08   which is hugely important I mean [TS]

01:15:10   historically [TS]

01:15:10   you know Apple is expensive is the mean [TS]

01:15:12   but that's not really true anymore [TS]

01:15:13   they've done a fantastic job of getting [TS]

01:15:15   pricing to where it's reasonable you're [TS]

01:15:17   only paying at a small premium for a [TS]

01:15:18   really nicely designed thing that's [TS]

01:15:21   that's a good trade-off for me as a [TS]

01:15:22   consumer I like that [TS]

01:15:24   so x86 transition was really big and the [TS]

01:15:28   the the sort of the the the other piece [TS]

01:15:31   of that [TS]

01:15:32   is a well and I forgot where I was going [TS]

01:15:35   with that the platform that no one owns [TS]

01:15:37   that's where you're going mmm the web [TS]

01:15:39   was the platform that nobody else became [TS]

01:15:41   important you didn't need to have [TS]

01:15:43   windows to get work done because that's [TS]

01:15:44   right everyone was using a platform that [TS]

01:15:45   nobody lost a thread that was really [TS]

01:15:47   obvious doing but you're right like you [TS]

01:15:49   no longer tied to the crazy Windows app [TS]

01:15:51   exe that does this crazy thing that your [TS]

01:15:53   business needs all the stuff your [TS]

01:15:54   business needs is done through a browser [TS]

01:15:56   which can run on any machine really so [TS]

01:15:59   why not run it on the relatively [TS]

01:16:01   inexpensive machine that's nicely [TS]

01:16:02   designed right you know that you didn't [TS]

01:16:04   play a huge premium for in it and it [TS]

01:16:05   feels nice it's a nicely designed thing [TS]

01:16:07   they gave a crap about the experience [TS]

01:16:09   for the consumer so I mean how do you [TS]

01:16:10   really argue against that and I think [TS]

01:16:12   that's a major factor in why Apple was [TS]

01:16:15   able to do as well as they're doing at [TS]

01:16:19   least on the MacBook side I did an [TS]

01:16:21   earlier show I don't remember what [TS]

01:16:22   episode was talking about one of the [TS]

01:16:25   things that I saw is that the transition [TS]

01:16:27   from the technology industry from caring [TS]

01:16:31   about specs by being a bunch of nerds [TS]

01:16:33   who cared about specs how many megahertz [TS]

01:16:35   you know how many megabytes screen [TS]

01:16:38   resolution just how big is the disk [TS]

01:16:41   drive it was a very spectrum and [TS]

01:16:44   Industry and that the PC model of [TS]

01:16:46   hardware and software separate and [TS]

01:16:47   commodity hardware makers competing [TS]

01:16:49   against each other [TS]

01:16:50   fed into that perfectly so you just had [TS]

01:16:52   years and years of a new pc magazine [TS]

01:16:54   coming out with a new chip that's a [TS]

01:16:55   little bit faster and this computer has [TS]

01:16:57   this much RAM this much hard disk space [TS]

01:16:58   and this monitor for this amount of cost [TS]

01:17:00   and you can compare them based on the [TS]

01:17:01   numbers and the comparison I was making [TS]

01:17:03   was with the more mature industry the [TS]

01:17:05   auto industry where in the auto industry [TS]

01:17:07   they have numbers too they have zero to [TS]

01:17:09   60 horsepower torque interior space [TS]

01:17:12   mileage you know everything you know can [TS]

01:17:15   crash worse in this everything about you [TS]

01:17:16   can you can boil cars down to numbers [TS]

01:17:18   but car magazines because it's a more [TS]

01:17:20   mature market they don't just say all [TS]

01:17:22   because this car has the highest specs [TS]

01:17:23   so just do bar graphs find the high [TS]

01:17:25   specs average numbers together this is [TS]

01:17:26   the best car period that's not how car [TS]

01:17:28   reviews are done even though they do [TS]

01:17:31   publish all those numbers it's just as [TS]

01:17:33   measurable as the computer world even [TS]

01:17:34   more measurable in fact you can think [TS]

01:17:36   the many ways you can test cars but they [TS]

01:17:37   don't rate them that way they say well [TS]

01:17:39   this car has more horsepower and is [TS]

01:17:40   faster but you know this car has a nicer [TS]

01:17:43   engine sound or it's nicer to be in or [TS]

01:17:45   as better [TS]

01:17:45   ability or just makes me feel nicer than [TS]

01:17:47   this car you know there's so many [TS]

01:17:49   intangibles that cars are compared on a [TS]

01:17:52   more mature criteria and the same goes [TS]

01:17:53   with the people buying cars people buy [TS]

01:17:55   cars that are not the most horsepower [TS]

01:17:57   you can get for the money they don't [TS]

01:17:58   have the best knowledge for the money [TS]

01:17:59   they don't have the best interior space [TS]

01:18:00   for the money and in fact that becomes [TS]

01:18:02   even more so as you go up the scale like [TS]

01:18:03   if you get some fancy sports car really [TS]

01:18:06   bad interior space probably allows e-rod [TS]

01:18:08   probably lousy mileage probably really [TS]

01:18:09   noisy but it looks hot and it's fun to [TS]

01:18:11   drive and how do you measure those [TS]

01:18:13   things there's no numbers for those well [TS]

01:18:14   so the PC industry has started is [TS]

01:18:17   starting to mature and undergo that [TS]

01:18:19   transition and that has helped Apple [TS]

01:18:21   tremendously because they are poised to [TS]

01:18:23   be the guide like we don't you know even [TS]

01:18:25   when they were still getting murdered on [TS]

01:18:27   price.i on specs because I you know [TS]

01:18:30   there was a bunch of us who said yeah I [TS]

01:18:31   know that I can get a Pentium that's [TS]

01:18:33   twice as fast was twice as much memory [TS]

01:18:35   for half the price I know that but I'm [TS]

01:18:36   still going to buy this other thing why [TS]

01:18:38   for reasons that don't show up on specs [TS]

01:18:40   cheats so as as the computer the world [TS]

01:18:44   of technology has gone more into the [TS]

01:18:45   mainstream amateur it is a market like [TS]

01:18:47   the car market people start shopping for [TS]

01:18:49   computers more like how they shop for [TS]

01:18:50   cars and they weren't as afraid of them [TS]

01:18:52   like back in the 80s people like I gotta [TS]

01:18:54   ask my nerdy friend he'll tell me which [TS]

01:18:55   one has the most megabits art so [TS]

01:18:57   whatever is you know they didn't even [TS]

01:18:58   know the lingo and they were afraid of [TS]

01:18:59   buying the wrong one tell me what to buy [TS]

01:19:01   that's why it was a winner-take-all I'm [TS]

01:19:03   afraid I'm gonna get the wrong one did I [TS]

01:19:04   get a Tandy no I bought the wrong thing [TS]

01:19:06   oh no everyone's using Windows tell me [TS]

01:19:08   what they get okay everyone get the [TS]

01:19:09   windows then get the most megahertz in [TS]

01:19:10   bits and all you know and a transition [TS]

01:19:13   now to I'm gonna buy the blue one when [TS]

01:19:15   the iMac comes out yeah the windows [TS]

01:19:17   comes out but the blue one is so cute [TS]

01:19:19   and people say the same damn thing about [TS]

01:19:20   cars right and they end up with cars [TS]

01:19:22   that are like you know a car nerd it's [TS]

01:19:24   like you didn't get the right car my car [TS]

01:19:25   has more horsepower and across half as [TS]

01:19:26   much and whatever you know their thing [TS]

01:19:28   is a truck buyer saying look good walk [TS]

01:19:30   and haul in the back of my truck I can't [TS]

01:19:31   believe you bought that new Volkswagen [TS]

01:19:33   Beetle you know cars are a mature market [TS]

01:19:35   I think computers are now becoming a [TS]

01:19:37   mature market and an immature market [TS]

01:19:38   like that you don't win by saying we [TS]

01:19:40   have the rectangle containing the most [TS]

01:19:43   memory and the highest speed CPU and the [TS]

01:19:46   fastest bus you just don't win that with [TS]

01:19:47   is that's not how the market works and [TS]

01:19:48   that even more than the individuals like [TS]

01:19:51   oh going to x86 that was necessary to [TS]

01:19:53   get on and even Hardware footing and [TS]

01:19:55   necessary for compatibility and be able [TS]

01:19:56   to run Windows software and the [TS]

01:19:58   form the no knowledge the web I think [TS]

01:20:00   all that stuff was important but the [TS]

01:20:02   overriding transition has been from a [TS]

01:20:05   market that was dominated by fear and a [TS]

01:20:07   bunch of individuals a bunch of like I [TS]

01:20:09   know we should call them clerics or [TS]

01:20:11   monks or the people who were the the [TS]

01:20:13   people who knew that digerati or [TS]

01:20:15   whatever from that market of a bunch of [TS]

01:20:17   nerds complain comparing specs to [TS]

01:20:19   amateur market where consumers choose [TS]

01:20:21   based on a whole host of things and [TS]

01:20:22   Apple does benefiting tremendously from [TS]

01:20:24   it because they've always been really [TS]

01:20:25   good at the things that don't show up on [TS]

01:20:26   spec sheets well I think it's a fairly [TS]

01:20:29   reasonable analogy but one one caveat I [TS]

01:20:31   would make is that cars are the physics [TS]

01:20:34   of cars aren't really ever going to [TS]

01:20:35   change whereas we kind of rewrite the [TS]

01:20:37   rules on computers pretty regularly and [TS]

01:20:39   I think the best way to explain this is [TS]

01:20:41   if you have you seen the documentary [TS]

01:20:42   tilt the battle to save pinball I have [TS]

01:20:44   not yet saw my first well it's excellent [TS]

01:20:46   I mean everybody should watch it even if [TS]

01:20:48   you don't really care about pinball it's [TS]

01:20:49   just fascinating it's a story about an [TS]

01:20:51   industry where basically there's there's [TS]

01:20:54   certain sea changes that happen industry [TS]

01:20:56   where a pimp where a pinball a class of [TS]

01:20:59   pinball machine will come out that makes [TS]

01:21:00   all the old ones seem obsolete like you [TS]

01:21:03   just look at it you're like wow this is [TS]

01:21:04   the future like all the all the previous [TS]

01:21:07   games seem like a waste of time and I [TS]

01:21:09   kind of had this experience with like [TS]

01:21:10   battlefield 3 like because battlefield 3 [TS]

01:21:12   is the engine is designed for the PC [TS]

01:21:16   it's not a console to fight engine it [TS]

01:21:18   and it really does make older games seem [TS]

01:21:20   like ok this is clearly inferior like [TS]

01:21:22   you can look at it and you can see that [TS]

01:21:23   wow this is like I'm actually there the [TS]

01:21:25   sound that the visuals it's dramatically [TS]

01:21:28   better than what came before in a way [TS]

01:21:29   that makes the old stuff seem like a [TS]

01:21:32   waste of time and the problem they had [TS]

01:21:35   in the documentary they were transcribed [TS]

01:21:36   was like how do you take pinball forward [TS]

01:21:38   you know in the 90s was for the the [TS]

01:21:41   golden era of pinball the early 90s [TS]

01:21:43   where they sort of reach the pinnacle of [TS]

01:21:44   this hybrid of so mechanical some [TS]

01:21:46   digital displays and a bunch of really [TS]

01:21:48   complex play fields it's like where do [TS]

01:21:50   you go from there I don't spoil the [TS]

01:21:52   surprise because it's a really neat [TS]

01:21:53   story but they basically did it they did [TS]

01:21:55   it they came up with something that sort [TS]

01:21:57   of reinvented pinball and I think that's [TS]

01:22:00   the caveat to your story is yes that's [TS]

01:22:03   true within the same generation of [TS]

01:22:05   pinball like you stopped looking at [TS]

01:22:07   features and you start just comparing on [TS]

01:22:08   color and feel and fabric and things [TS]

01:22:10   like that but [TS]

01:22:11   iOS is a good example of reinventing the [TS]

01:22:13   game where they said you know what the [TS]

01:22:14   PC and Steve Jobs is said this many [TS]

01:22:16   times the PC battles over Microsoft 110 [TS]

01:22:19   years ago you know an iPhone and iOS is [TS]

01:22:22   the reaction that's like well let's [TS]

01:22:23   reinvent the game and they call the [TS]

01:22:25   phones were already mature market I [TS]

01:22:26   would say that's a like an example [TS]

01:22:27   people never shop for their phones based [TS]

01:22:30   on what CPU is in it because people have [TS]

01:22:32   been buying phones since before they [TS]

01:22:33   were portable and you know first you had [TS]

01:22:34   to get from AT&T but least you could [TS]

01:22:36   maybe pick the color but then after that [TS]

01:22:37   you're shopping you know people just [TS]

01:22:38   other consumer electronic products that [TS]

01:22:41   weren't pcs had similar components they [TS]

01:22:43   had computers inside them but no one [TS]

01:22:45   shop for their TV based on the megahertz [TS]

01:22:46   of the image processor no one it's just [TS]

01:22:48   not how it worked so when phones come [TS]

01:22:50   along or rent the iPod is another great [TS]

01:22:52   example when the mp3 player comes along [TS]

01:22:53   people care how much memory the iPod has [TS]

01:22:55   Apple wouldn't even list it in their [TS]

01:22:56   specs same thing with the phone they [TS]

01:22:57   don't they don't list how much RAM they [TS]

01:22:59   wouldn't even tell you for the longest [TS]

01:23:00   time they don't you know how many [TS]

01:23:01   megahertz the CPU is not important [TS]

01:23:02   people never shopped for phones like [TS]

01:23:04   that people never shot for Walkman like [TS]

01:23:05   that so it didn't have anything to [TS]

01:23:07   transition out of and again that was [TS]

01:23:09   tapley advantage if we don't have to [TS]

01:23:10   compete on these stupid specs that we [TS]

01:23:12   think aren't that important we are free [TS]

01:23:14   to excel in the areas where we excel and [TS]

01:23:17   the PC industry just happened to get off [TS]

01:23:19   kind of like on the wrong foot and spent [TS]

01:23:21   a long time stuck in that that world of [TS]

01:23:23   specs but the phone you know it's not [TS]

01:23:25   like it it's kind of all the same things [TS]

01:23:27   like well the phone is replacing the PC [TS]

01:23:28   and stuff it's all it's all technology [TS]

01:23:30   it's all C we realize it's basically the [TS]

01:23:31   same operating system underneath all of [TS]

01:23:33   them it's a UNIX kernel and it's mac OS [TS]

01:23:35   x basis and on darwin and all that [TS]

01:23:37   business yeah it's very similar we know [TS]

01:23:39   that but from a consumers perspective [TS]

01:23:41   even today when someone buys their phone [TS]

01:23:44   they will they will never ask how much [TS]

01:23:46   RAM it has or what the CPU has unless [TS]

01:23:48   there are nerd but even today when a [TS]

01:23:51   regular layperson is shopping for [TS]

01:23:52   computers if you know they may ask how [TS]

01:23:55   much memory it has that may come up in [TS]

01:23:56   the conversation because it's still a [TS]

01:23:57   factor and that has to do a lot to do [TS]

01:23:59   with like how memory is managed on the [TS]

01:24:00   systems and why it might be a factor but [TS]

01:24:01   a lot of us just cultural like I've [TS]

01:24:03   learned when I go shopping for a PC I [TS]

01:24:05   should asked about these spec things [TS]

01:24:06   less so than it has been in the past but [TS]

01:24:08   we're still like coming out of that [TS]

01:24:10   phase of PCs those dark ages I would say [TS]

01:24:12   of the PCs uh [TS]

01:24:13   existence well I think you're [TS]

01:24:15   oversimplifying I think it's really like [TS]

01:24:17   to go back to your chronology if I [TS]

01:24:18   showed you a flying car and a car that [TS]

01:24:20   had wheels you wouldn't look at it and [TS]

01:24:21   say oh I needed to suspect you like oh [TS]

01:24:22   my god that's a flying car right [TS]

01:24:25   clearly this is a different thing than [TS]

01:24:27   what came before I think you're [TS]

01:24:28   massively underselling how often that [TS]

01:24:30   happens like Syria would be example like [TS]

01:24:32   oh I can talk to my phone and set [TS]

01:24:34   appointments right like that's not [TS]

01:24:35   megahertz that's like some new [TS]

01:24:37   capability that they're trying to expose [TS]

01:24:39   and popularize like the flying car right [TS]

01:24:42   and that's the discrimination it's [TS]

01:24:44   completely artificial like Siri could [TS]

01:24:45   run on the for right but they make it [TS]

01:24:47   only run on the 4s because it's [TS]

01:24:49   segmentation which I'm fine with [TS]

01:24:50   actually but that's an example of again [TS]

01:24:53   the flying car thing and I think it's a [TS]

01:24:55   little disrespectful the computer [TS]

01:24:57   industry say everything was always done [TS]

01:24:58   in specs it was like oh my god VisiCalc [TS]

01:25:00   I can actually do oh yeah there was yeah [TS]

01:25:03   there was definitely that that whole [TS]

01:25:04   thing of like the things leap frogging [TS]

01:25:06   the previous one I would say the [TS]

01:25:07   Internet is the biggest new feature that [TS]

01:25:09   you know what there was nothing [TS]

01:25:10   technically yeah an old computer could [TS]

01:25:12   still do internet stop once the internet [TS]

01:25:14   became along that was a diminishment of [TS]

01:25:16   what the specs mean because what you [TS]

01:25:17   really want to do with the computers [TS]

01:25:18   connect to other people and that was a [TS]

01:25:19   new capability and the spreadsheet the [TS]

01:25:21   same thing like well I don't care how [TS]

01:25:23   much memory this has I just know that [TS]

01:25:24   I'm buy an Apple 2 there's this thing I [TS]

01:25:26   can put numbers on that automatically [TS]

01:25:27   calculates them for me in real time [TS]

01:25:28   right there's new amazing thing so [TS]

01:25:30   there's always gonna be some new amazing [TS]

01:25:31   thing that you can do and that's the [TS]

01:25:33   exciting part of the industry to me and [TS]

01:25:35   I think that again you're really [TS]

01:25:37   underselling how often that still [TS]

01:25:39   happens fairly well I mean the spec [TS]

01:25:41   thing is mostly getting as why is it [TS]

01:25:42   that Apple is a player now and wasn't a [TS]

01:25:45   player before a lot of it has to do with [TS]

01:25:46   them going into markets where specs were [TS]

01:25:48   never a factor but even on the Mac and [TS]

01:25:49   sure where the reason the Mac is out set [TS]

01:25:51   out growing you know the rate of [TS]

01:25:53   increase of Mac sales is much higher [TS]

01:25:54   than the industry average for generic [TS]

01:25:56   pcs is because the PC industry is [TS]

01:25:59   finally finally coming out of that phase [TS]

01:26:01   where specs mean so much specs and [TS]

01:26:04   compatibility to things so you know I [TS]

01:26:06   can't get this because doesn't run [TS]

01:26:07   Windows and I can't get this because I [TS]

01:26:09   would feel dumb because my friend tells [TS]

01:26:10   me that I can get a Pentium for half as [TS]

01:26:12   much money well we have obscene amount [TS]

01:26:14   of power we have I think we reached the [TS]

01:26:16   point in Moore's law where we have more [TS]

01:26:17   power than really anyone can use and [TS]

01:26:20   have for like I would say the last four [TS]

01:26:22   years at least like someone made that [TS]

01:26:24   point in the chat room they're saying [TS]

01:26:25   like well back when cars had 60 [TS]

01:26:26   horsepower not worrying about how much [TS]

01:26:28   horsepower had car had up is a problem [TS]

01:26:29   but now you the poorest where you have [TS]

01:26:31   is as much as you feel like paying for [TS]

01:26:33   and gas space could be answer and and [TS]

01:26:36   conceptually what's happening is the [TS]

01:26:37   things that require that much compute [TS]

01:26:39   power [TS]

01:26:39   or getting near your reaching the top of [TS]

01:26:41   the pyramid like people who do video [TS]

01:26:42   rendering people who do hardcore ballad [TS]

01:26:44   is always gaming and there's always [TS]

01:26:46   gaming there's always gaming but again [TS]

01:26:48   that the console off' occation there's a [TS]

01:26:49   certain standardization of you know xbox [TS]

01:26:51   and ps3 specs are frankly really nice [TS]

01:26:53   modern standards really but you know [TS]

01:26:56   they still get by with it that's a five [TS]

01:26:58   year old spec right it still kind of [TS]

01:26:59   works like battlefield 3 does scale down [TS]

01:27:01   not if you get the texture pack you [TS]

01:27:04   don't see it on a PC there's and just [TS]

01:27:05   how amazing I know did you see the video [TS]

01:27:07   they showed of what what battlefield 3 [TS]

01:27:08   looks like without the the optional [TS]

01:27:10   texture pack that you can download and [TS]

01:27:11   install it's really grim yeah exactly so [TS]

01:27:15   and again that's that's an extreme but [TS]

01:27:17   even within let me give an example let [TS]

01:27:19   me talk Nate say negative things about [TS]

01:27:20   myself like the PC gamer is kind of a [TS]

01:27:23   rare beast now because who's gonna spend [TS]

01:27:25   $500 or you know let's say $200 be more [TS]

01:27:28   realistic on a video card to play this [TS]

01:27:29   game like I will because I'm crazy right [TS]

01:27:31   but the average person probably not I [TS]

01:27:34   mean you're dealing with hot rodders [TS]

01:27:35   right and the hot rodders are important [TS]

01:27:37   they're they're relevant they drive some [TS]

01:27:39   parts the industry but they're not where [TS]

01:27:40   most the money is made like in cars [TS]

01:27:43   right you don't sell you know a million [TS]

01:27:45   cars to hot rodders oh the analogy is [TS]

01:27:48   with the cars was that you know back in [TS]

01:27:50   my parents generation or my grandparents [TS]

01:27:52   generation people loved to work on the [TS]

01:27:53   cars and clean up their carburetor [TS]

01:27:54   themselves and stuff and then all the [TS]

01:27:56   mobile Mon today's cars which are [TS]

01:27:57   completely sealed and you need the [TS]

01:27:58   special car computer to do anything [TS]

01:28:00   complicated with because you can't just [TS]

01:28:02   get in there it's not a machine you can [TS]

01:28:03   mess with with your hands it's become a [TS]

01:28:04   closed system it's like bolted down with [TS]

01:28:06   the cover and you need an engine [TS]

01:28:07   computer to adjust anything in and it's [TS]

01:28:09   just it's not open like it used to be [TS]

01:28:11   yeah the only thing I don't like about a [TS]

01:28:14   car analogy works and I'm happy to work [TS]

01:28:15   the chronology but one thing I don't [TS]

01:28:16   like about it is we'll never get into [TS]

01:28:18   flying cars flying cars are never really [TS]

01:28:20   going to happen and in our lives time so [TS]

01:28:22   maybe none our children's lifetimes [TS]

01:28:22   probably I mean like an analogy flying [TS]

01:28:25   cars to reappoint cars well well my [TS]

01:28:27   point is in computers we get into flying [TS]

01:28:29   and beyond like I think the things you [TS]

01:28:30   can do are so much mean yeah it's not [TS]

01:28:32   fancy because obviously a Turing machine [TS]

01:28:35   is much more mutable machine than a [TS]

01:28:36   rolling thing that transports people but [TS]

01:28:38   exactly is I think it it I just want to [TS]

01:28:41   get into like the culture of the market [TS]

01:28:42   of what you shop based on not so much [TS]

01:28:44   the attributes of the individual product [TS]

01:28:46   so that the consoles are a great example [TS]

01:28:47   because they are sort of going through [TS]

01:28:49   the same thing where before [TS]

01:28:52   you had to get a new console generation [TS]

01:28:54   every couple of years just because the [TS]

01:28:55   graphics could be so much better and [TS]

01:28:56   that was driving the industry and now [TS]

01:28:58   for a variety of reasons the next [TS]

01:29:01   generation of consoles seems to be [TS]

01:29:03   taking longer than the other ones it's [TS]

01:29:05   because you know all these graphics are [TS]

01:29:06   good enough I hate that saying and I [TS]

01:29:08   think they're not but it's just the the [TS]

01:29:11   return on investment in graphics is [TS]

01:29:13   diminishing from when we were going from [TS]

01:29:15   a yellow Square and adventure to doom [TS]

01:29:18   like that was that's a big selling [TS]

01:29:20   proposition and now you're like well you [TS]

01:29:21   can look how awesome battle III looks [TS]

01:29:23   like I'm a B C and look how horrible [TS]

01:29:24   looks on your xbox but it's like yeah is [TS]

01:29:28   it you know I'm happy playing it on the [TS]

01:29:29   Xbox I know I can stall on the PC you [TS]

01:29:32   don't have to buy a new video card I [TS]

01:29:33   have to you know I mean these are [TS]

01:29:34   reasonable valid arguments for yeah and [TS]

01:29:37   so there will be a new console [TS]

01:29:39   generation assuming all those companies [TS]

01:29:40   don't go out of business by then [TS]

01:29:41   assuming Nintendo does not to switch to [TS]

01:29:43   just selling software but eventually [TS]

01:29:45   there will be a new part of our [TS]

01:29:47   generation of consoles that will have [TS]

01:29:49   all the benefits that consoles have but [TS]

01:29:51   in the meantime I think that the PC [TS]

01:29:53   gamers although they are a minority I I [TS]

01:29:56   don't know I have a hard time in the [TS]

01:29:58   same way I have a hard time envisioning [TS]

01:29:59   the general-purpose computer ever [TS]

01:30:01   completely going away because it for [TS]

01:30:02   example developers will need it for our [TS]

01:30:03   lifetime anyway wha PC gaming is [TS]

01:30:07   probably about as small as it's ever [TS]

01:30:09   going to get but that's the analogy I [TS]

01:30:11   want people to understand is like when [TS]

01:30:12   you buy a MacBook Pro you're becoming a [TS]

01:30:14   hot-rodder [TS]

01:30:15   like I know it doesn't seem that way but [TS]

01:30:17   in the new world that's emerging you're [TS]

01:30:18   a hot-rodder like them the MacBook and [TS]

01:30:20   the MacBook Pro don't really fit for [TS]

01:30:21   that reason they're the hot rods I know [TS]

01:30:24   it seems like the Mac Pro is and that's [TS]

01:30:25   already that was a ridiculous machine [TS]

01:30:27   three years ago frankly like the Mac Pro [TS]

01:30:29   now there's all these news articles [TS]

01:30:30   about oh they're looking at [TS]

01:30:31   discontinuing the Mac Pro mics yeah [TS]

01:30:32   you're you're reading Apple sites yeah [TS]

01:30:35   I'm like finally like well it comes up [TS]

01:30:36   on Twitter because we all we all want [TS]

01:30:38   one more Mac Pro so in jinxes stories [TS]

01:30:40   i'm i whatever the next I want them to [TS]

01:30:42   make one more so I can buy it and then [TS]

01:30:43   we can talk about getting rid of it okay [TS]

01:30:45   because as you know it is a ready [TS]

01:30:48   machine but honestly the Mac Pros has [TS]

01:30:50   been the Apple 3 of the lineup for since [TS]

01:30:52   forever enough is it agreeing here's the [TS]

01:30:54   great thing about the Mac Pro and the [TS]

01:30:55   reason people like me why the obviously [TS]

01:30:57   these people who are professionals and [TS]

01:30:58   they needed for x y&z reason because [TS]

01:31:00   they have these seven PCI Express cards [TS]

01:31:02   shoved in there and all these other [TS]

01:31:03   reasons sorry but the reason I love the [TS]

01:31:05   Mac [TS]

01:31:05   is it because it's finally the [TS]

01:31:07   culmination of my dream computer it does [TS]

01:31:11   everything [TS]

01:31:11   I can play Windows games in it I can put [TS]

01:31:14   a big hot video card in it I can install [TS]

01:31:16   lots of internal drives it does [TS]

01:31:18   everything it runs Windows natively runs [TS]

01:31:19   Mac natively it's really fast it's got a [TS]

01:31:21   lot of room it's got a big video card [TS]

01:31:23   never before has there been this [TS]

01:31:25   confluence of events where you can buy [TS]

01:31:27   one machine that does everything for you [TS]

01:31:29   that it's you know you're not cut out of [TS]

01:31:31   the world of PC gaming because you can [TS]

01:31:33   just boot into Windows right you you can [TS]

01:31:35   use the Mac operating system that you [TS]

01:31:37   want and you can its internally [TS]

01:31:39   expandable and user serviceable and you [TS]

01:31:41   could open some up it is the it is the [TS]

01:31:42   dream machine and if and when the Mac [TS]

01:31:44   Pro finally goes away that will be the [TS]

01:31:46   end of the dream machine because you [TS]

01:31:49   can't you know it's like well what do I [TS]

01:31:50   for me it's like what do I do for gaming [TS]

01:31:52   that oh well you know you can you can [TS]

01:31:54   connect something with Thunderbolt but [TS]

01:31:55   you can't connect to gaming GPU with [TS]

01:31:57   Thunderbolt because you know 16 X or 8 X [TS]

01:31:59   PCI Express Lanes don't go over [TS]

01:32:01   Thunderbolt so what do I do then do I [TS]

01:32:03   have to buy separate gaming PC and then [TS]

01:32:04   have a cute little Mac that I use I'm [TS]

01:32:06   back to the old ugly way obviously I am [TS]

01:32:08   in the vast majority of people in the [TS]

01:32:10   world which is why the Mac Pros days are [TS]

01:32:12   probably numbered but it will be sad for [TS]

01:32:14   me when it it finally goes away and a [TS]

01:32:15   lot of people you know you you don't [TS]

01:32:18   have any Mac's at home at all do you [TS]

01:32:19   Jeff you just got pcs the iPhone does [TS]

01:32:22   that right so you've that you're not [TS]

01:32:25   losing anything because you were never a [TS]

01:32:26   Mac user to begin with you're an iOS [TS]

01:32:28   user but you never like boy when I do my [TS]

01:32:30   daily work I would rather be using a Mac [TS]

01:32:31   right and you're like you've never got [TS]

01:32:33   to that because if you had they be [TS]

01:32:35   taking that away from you I mean I'm not [TS]

01:32:36   super sympathetic this because I think [TS]

01:32:38   that the fact that Apple treats their [TS]

01:32:40   hardware's a dongle to install the [TS]

01:32:41   operating system is ridiculous [TS]

01:32:43   like I think for guys like you who need [TS]

01:32:45   that you should be able just buy [TS]

01:32:46   commodity hardware which is what it is I [TS]

01:32:47   think it was a beautiful machine I want [TS]

01:32:50   to I want to give Apple their props like [TS]

01:32:51   Apple does a beautiful job of really [TS]

01:32:54   designing stuff and thinking it through [TS]

01:32:55   and if you look at the Mac Pro it's a [TS]

01:32:56   really well designed machine but this [TS]

01:33:00   idea that you can only install OS 10 on [TS]

01:33:02   you know approved hardware is just [TS]

01:33:04   ridiculous I know you don't like it but [TS]

01:33:05   I mean you know the advantages are you [TS]

01:33:07   it may rub you the wrong way but even [TS]

01:33:09   you the advantages are obvious in terms [TS]

01:33:11   of how they well you could just install [TS]

01:33:13   a hacked operating system that's what [TS]

01:33:14   you really should do I know but like you [TS]

01:33:16   can't Apple doesn't have to worry about [TS]

01:33:17   that Apple has not to support every kind [TS]

01:33:19   of [TS]

01:33:19   Under the Sun they can't they have [TS]

01:33:20   enough trouble believe me they have [TS]

01:33:21   enough trouble just supporting the [TS]

01:33:22   hardware they distribute if they had to [TS]

01:33:24   support the entire range of you know [TS]

01:33:25   they don't want to be in the business [TS]

01:33:26   they want it they want it it's like [TS]

01:33:27   saying if you get IOS to run on any cell [TS]

01:33:29   phone would that be awesome [TS]

01:33:30   no same same exact thing with with the [TS]

01:33:32   middle you said you wanted expandability [TS]

01:33:34   all the stuff that really died with Waze [TS]

01:33:35   right when Waze was no longer part of [TS]

01:33:37   the company doesn't matter bro is my [TS]

01:33:38   head is humongous is you could fit a [TS]

01:33:40   little village inside there you know but [TS]

01:33:42   it's days are numbered everybody [TS]

01:33:44   acknowledges I know that's that's going [TS]

01:33:45   to be sad for me because that that will [TS]

01:33:47   be the end of my one dream machine it [TS]

01:33:49   does everything and it--and and in some [TS]

01:33:51   respects is kind of ironic that I'm the [TS]

01:33:53   advantage I'm gaming is because [TS]

01:33:54   Microsoft is so promiscuous Microsoft [TS]

01:33:56   says yeah but we're on Windows than [TS]

01:33:57   anything a Mac Pro makes for a really [TS]

01:33:59   fast really good Windows machine may all [TS]

01:34:01   Macs do if you want to buy Mac hardware [TS]

01:34:03   because you like the hardware it's got [TS]

01:34:04   exactly the screen size you want exactly [TS]

01:34:06   the capacity and the port's that you [TS]

01:34:07   want but you don't like Mac os10 run [TS]

01:34:09   windows onto the runs it runs really [TS]

01:34:11   well they're nice pcs right and because [TS]

01:34:14   dreaming is that last thing that we need [TS]

01:34:15   to wrench away from pcs it means that I [TS]

01:34:17   have to run Windows and it's nice that [TS]

01:34:19   I'm able to because when Microsoft is [TS]

01:34:21   not like a bonus regard but if you buy [TS]

01:34:23   the right hardware if you buy from a [TS]

01:34:24   very constrained list of hardware you're [TS]

01:34:26   using the same hardware's apples using [TS]

01:34:27   and then I don't know the state of the [TS]

01:34:28   hackintosh like how difficult it can be [TS]

01:34:30   done but that's you know I'm an old man [TS]

01:34:32   I don't deal with those hassles I don't [TS]

01:34:34   want to figure out exactly the parts [TS]

01:34:35   that have to and Apple does have custom [TS]

01:34:37   boards like they're not they're not [TS]

01:34:38   doing off-the-shelf parts from Asian [TS]

01:34:40   manufacturers they are making em it's [TS]

01:34:41   not they're using all the same chips and [TS]

01:34:43   everything but every once in a while is [TS]

01:34:44   one you know that this particular [TS]

01:34:46   combination of i/o controllers and [TS]

01:34:48   interfaces and and you know chips and [TS]

01:34:51   really doesn't exist anywhere outside of [TS]

01:34:53   Apple and you know dealing with the [TS]

01:34:56   hackintosh means I can probably get to [TS]

01:34:57   work the next time is the system update [TS]

01:34:59   I got to react it it's just it's that [TS]

01:35:01   kind of hassle that I'm that into it [TS]

01:35:02   like for example you with your [TS]

01:35:03   overclocking I would never do that [TS]

01:35:05   overclocking thing that you do but it's [TS]

01:35:07   what you're doing it you're you are more [TS]

01:35:09   like a hot-rodder than anyone buying a [TS]

01:35:11   Mac Pro because you were literally [TS]

01:35:12   hot-rodding your machine it's not good [TS]

01:35:13   enough the way it is you're gonna say [TS]

01:35:14   well I can overclock the bus a little [TS]

01:35:15   bit and then put two video cards in [TS]

01:35:17   there and do sli and I just want [TS]

01:35:19   something that you know for to give the [TS]

01:35:21   battlefield example give me the best [TS]

01:35:23   single card single slot GPU that I can [TS]

01:35:27   buy and sticking and I don't want the [TS]

01:35:28   sli I don't want the double GPU thing [TS]

01:35:30   because it's too hot but I'll be happy [TS]

01:35:32   with [TS]

01:35:33   you know the best single car double GPU [TS]

01:35:36   single slot thing that I can put on [TS]

01:35:39   there and yeah that's you're just in a [TS]

01:35:42   weird place right now I mean ever see [TS]

01:35:43   what you're saying it's the place you [TS]

01:35:44   know I again I ever totally recognize [TS]

01:35:46   that this doesn't does not sway Apple in [TS]

01:35:48   any way nor should it because their [TS]

01:35:49   business is much bigger than you know [TS]

01:35:50   it's just set that's why people are sad [TS]

01:35:52   about the Mac Pro because it was this [TS]

01:35:54   confluence events but you could run you [TS]

01:35:55   had Unix yeah yeah UNIX and Mac was [TS]

01:35:57   combined in Mac OS 10 and that was great [TS]

01:35:59   for people who loved UNIX like me right [TS]

01:36:00   and then to get Windows on top of that [TS]

01:36:01   and games on top of that get everything [TS]

01:36:03   with one box so please Apple one more [TS]

01:36:05   Mac Pro I'll buy it it'll say he'll [TS]

01:36:07   serve me for like four more years [TS]

01:36:08   especially if I swap out GPUs and then [TS]

01:36:11   you can do whatever you want sounds fair [TS]

01:36:14   well hopefully they'll do that I don't [TS]

01:36:16   know I mean again secrecy right so who [TS]

01:36:18   knows what they're gonna do yeah rumors [TS]

01:36:21   you know it the worst case scenario they [TS]

01:36:22   cancel it I can get a new one because [TS]

01:36:24   mine that new mine several years old I [TS]

01:36:26   can get a new one for cheaper for the [TS]

01:36:27   can the line right put it next to your [TS]

01:36:30   mac cube your can yeah I don't have a [TS]

01:36:32   cubic Dan does all right we are very [TS]

01:36:34   long I still do it's it's uh sitting [TS]

01:36:37   right here I think we are way over time [TS]

01:36:40   there's my amazing it 9 defy no not [TS]

01:36:43   anymore 95 minutes might be a record now [TS]

01:36:47   we've done 120 on the show right I [TS]

01:36:49   thought I could have a better argument [TS]

01:36:51   with Jeff in person because the the [TS]

01:36:53   delay and talking I I would be more [TS]

01:36:55   inclined to talk over him and interrupt [TS]

01:36:58   him in person I'm sure he would love [TS]

01:37:00   that but yeah that's fine [TS]

01:37:02   it worked fine for me well if you did if [TS]

01:37:05   you want to how should a hash these [TS]

01:37:07   people follow you Jeff on on Twitter [TS]

01:37:09   they can follow me on Twitter at coding [TS]

01:37:10   horror they can go to coding whore calm [TS]

01:37:12   of course please go to Stack Exchange [TS]

01:37:14   calm and check out our awesome network [TS]

01:37:16   of Q&A sites and we do have an apple [TS]

01:37:18   centric site that's doing really [TS]

01:37:19   exceptionally well John I was looking at [TS]

01:37:21   stats the other day and Apple is getting [TS]

01:37:23   to be our sort of biggest site outside [TS]

01:37:25   our trilogy which is impressive you can [TS]

01:37:28   see that at Stack Exchange calm slash [TS]

01:37:30   sites I can verify that make sure I'm [TS]

01:37:33   not lying to you yes indeed 27,000 [TS]

01:37:35   visits per day so it's up there so under [TS]

01:37:38   a scab unto but that one has some [TS]

01:37:40   artificial than this to it because it is [TS]

01:37:41   blessed by canonical I mean we'd have an [TS]

01:37:44   apple come out and say Apple [TS]

01:37:46   that's tacky change calm is our favorite [TS]

01:37:48   cider knee kept though that would be [TS]

01:37:50   cool if they did they could do that so [TS]

01:37:53   and you can follow John Syracuse on [TS]

01:37:54   Twitter siracusa I'm Dan benjamin on [TS]

01:37:57   twitter and elsewhere and uh also you [TS]

01:38:00   should check out i have this in the show [TS]

01:38:01   notes we get a lot of uh i've been [TS]

01:38:03   adding links to the show notes people [TS]

01:38:05   always say how to get to the show notes [TS]

01:38:06   get a five-by-five that TV slash [TS]

01:38:08   hypercritical and in this case slash [TS]

01:38:09   forty one and you can you can hear i'm [TS]

01:38:13   not here you can razz oppose you could [TS]

01:38:15   hear if you had your computer read it [TS]

01:38:16   max do that by default you can go to [TS]

01:38:19   their and you can see all the links that [TS]

01:38:22   we've collected all the little links and [TS]

01:38:24   little tidbits and things that were [TS]

01:38:25   mentioned we try to grab them all and [TS]

01:38:27   put them there and you can see what we [TS]

01:38:29   were talking about and really that's it [TS]

01:38:33   right i mean that's all they need to [TS]

01:38:35   know and and if you are by any chance a [TS]

01:38:38   programmer listening to the show and [TS]

01:38:39   wishing I were talking about more [TS]

01:38:40   programming topics but you are not using [TS]

01:38:42   Stack Overflow comm I don't know where [TS]

01:38:44   you've been you need to use that go slow [TS]

01:38:47   calm and and server fault calm if you're [TS]

01:38:49   doing sysadmin [TS]

01:38:50   and just those technical sites have been [TS]

01:38:54   one of the biggest boons to programmers [TS]

01:38:56   in recent years right up there with like [TS]

01:38:58   github and other newfangled things you [TS]

01:39:00   need to be using Stack Overflow if [TS]

01:39:01   you're a programmer excellent site can't [TS]

01:39:03   recommend it enough great site and Jeff [TS]

01:39:06   Atwoods interview with me on the [TS]

01:39:07   pipeline is also there in the show nuts [TS]

01:39:09   I was episode 38 back at the beginning [TS]

01:39:11   this year so Jeff thanks for being here [TS]

01:39:14   hey thanks for having me enjoyed it [TS]

01:39:32   you [TS]