43: The Scorpion and the Frog


00:00:04   this is hypercritical a weekly talkshow [TS]

00:00:06   ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:08   the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:10   technologies and businesses nothing so [TS]

00:00:13   perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

00:00:15   about bhaijaan siracusa the founder of [TS]

00:00:19   hypercritical I'm the co-host Dan [TS]

00:00:22   Benjamin today is November 18th to 2011 [TS]

00:00:25   this is episode number 43 [TS]

00:00:27   I want to say thanks to our two sponsors [TS]

00:00:30   Shopify calm and squarespace.com we want [TS]

00:00:34   to say thanks to reinvigorate dotnet for [TS]

00:00:38   providing sponsor for the bandwidth for [TS]

00:00:40   the show real-time web stats and heat [TS]

00:00:42   maps promo code 5x5 will give you 10% [TS]

00:00:45   off life your account reinvigorate net [TS]

00:00:48   use those guys love them John Syracuse [TS]

00:00:51   are welcome back are you ready I feel [TS]

00:00:55   ready I think I'm ready we'll see I [TS]

00:01:01   don't know maybe not [TS]

00:01:02   no I I've got I've got to tell you got [TS]

00:01:06   to tell you last week's last week's show [TS]

00:01:09   I have received so much [TS]

00:01:14   oddly positive feedback about this show [TS]

00:01:17   why why is it odd because usually [TS]

00:01:21   there's about an equal amount of [TS]

00:01:23   criticism to compliments and usually [TS]

00:01:26   they're by the same people but I will I [TS]

00:01:29   will tell you this I'm going to throw a [TS]

00:01:31   number out at you [TS]

00:01:33   okay I'm ready to date hypercritical [TS]

00:01:39   episode number 42 I pull this out [TS]

00:01:47   hypercritical number 42 if I can if I [TS]

00:01:52   can spell it right I can do the correct [TS]

00:01:56   search for it has I mean that do you [TS]

00:02:00   want to do any guess at this what am i [TS]

00:02:02   guessing up the number of downloads oh I [TS]

00:02:04   don't know and no idea [TS]

00:02:06   you're gonna take again I'll save it [TS]

00:02:07   I'll save it for later all right I mean [TS]

00:02:09   yeah you don't tell me download numbers [TS]

00:02:11   routinely so I have no idea what a [TS]

00:02:13   averages or whatever right so yeah I'd [TS]

00:02:17   be I think the reaction to the last show [TS]

00:02:20   was overwhelmingly positive and I guess [TS]

00:02:23   that is surprising cuz you're right most [TS]

00:02:24   of the shows it's like there there's a [TS]

00:02:28   strong contingent of people who disagree [TS]

00:02:29   I think I don't know what it was with [TS]

00:02:31   this one but that the thing I saw on [TS]

00:02:34   this show was that most of the feedback [TS]

00:02:36   that I got or yeah there was a lot of [TS]

00:02:39   feedback and most of it didn't come [TS]

00:02:40   through the five by five feedback form [TS]

00:02:42   normally it's like after each show the [TS]

00:02:43   majority the feedback it comes through [TS]

00:02:45   that form this time the stuff that came [TS]

00:02:47   through that form is still positive but [TS]

00:02:49   I got lots of like lots of email Tamar's [TS]

00:02:52   Technica email ideas lots of stuff on [TS]

00:02:54   Twitter that was just replying to me you [TS]

00:02:55   were included in all those Suzy didn't [TS]

00:02:57   you see like a lot more Twitter feedback [TS]

00:02:58   this time and got yeah a lot yeah so it [TS]

00:03:01   was uh very positive but um this show [TS]

00:03:06   this is going to be still about the jobs [TS]

00:03:08   by over people who are wondering and all [TS]

00:03:10   the follow up is going to be about the [TS]

00:03:12   previous show on the jobs file it's hard [TS]

00:03:14   not to make this show 100% just a meta [TS]

00:03:17   show about the feedback about the [TS]

00:03:18   previous show I will try to avoid that [TS]

00:03:20   and just make it 50% about that so let's [TS]

00:03:24   go because I want to oh I won't know I [TS]

00:03:26   run out of time so the people who gave [TS]

00:03:30   positive feedback they were not there [TS]

00:03:32   I'm kind of lumping them to a couple [TS]

00:03:33   categories first there were the people [TS]

00:03:34   who you know the usual people respected [TS]

00:03:36   people agree with you they they disliked [TS]

00:03:38   the book for the same reasons that I did [TS]

00:03:40   they're like you like the or someone [TS]

00:03:41   echo your opinion out to a larger [TS]

00:03:43   audience so that was a big chunk of the [TS]

00:03:45   people with positive feedback like yeah [TS]

00:03:46   that's just what I was thinking right on [TS]

00:03:48   right uh then there was people who read [TS]

00:03:51   the book and were not blown away by it [TS]

00:03:53   but couldn't put their finger on what [TS]

00:03:56   the problem was and listening to the [TS]

00:03:57   show sort of crystallized their [TS]

00:03:58   dissatisfaction or highlighted one [TS]

00:04:01   aspect of their dissatisfaction then [TS]

00:04:04   there was a pretty large group of people [TS]

00:04:04   who just like hearing me complain about [TS]

00:04:06   stuff at which which makes sense because [TS]

00:04:08   you figure if you're gonna be a longtime [TS]

00:04:10   listener of my podcast you would you [TS]

00:04:12   know you would be the type person whom I [TS]

00:04:14   like hearing me complain about stuff and [TS]

00:04:16   they it I think they'll be just as happy [TS]

00:04:17   if I complained about toasters or [TS]

00:04:19   whatever ah they were they thought it [TS]

00:04:21   was fun because I was worked up about it [TS]

00:04:23   right or on fire was the term that I [TS]

00:04:25   a lot siracusa was on fire on that last [TS]

00:04:29   episode and you're right I think there [TS]

00:04:30   are a handful of people who just very [TS]

00:04:32   simply they just enjoyed hearing you [TS]

00:04:35   express your strong emotion about the [TS]

00:04:40   topic right was that simple they didn't [TS]

00:04:42   they didn't care what what the topic was [TS]

00:04:44   it just so happened that they'd love to [TS]

00:04:46   hear your album and I am certain I'm [TS]

00:04:48   certainly in that camp and I like [TS]

00:04:51   hearing other people other podcasts do [TS]

00:04:52   that so I understand that sentiment and [TS]

00:04:53   finally mixed to rap this group or [TS]

00:04:56   people this is all the positive people [TS]

00:04:57   by the way were the people who had their [TS]

00:04:59   own complaints they would be like yeah [TS]

00:05:01   everything you said and and then they [TS]

00:05:02   would list all the things that they [TS]

00:05:04   didn't like about the book in particular [TS]

00:05:06   a lot of people wanted to show the [TS]

00:05:08   little niggly things that they happen to [TS]

00:05:11   notice that I didn't mention the show I [TS]

00:05:12   made a few notes of a couple of them [TS]

00:05:14   I'm sorry didn't remember the people's [TS]

00:05:15   names but it was a lot of feedback one [TS]

00:05:18   person said did you notice that that [TS]

00:05:20   they said the Black Forest was in [TS]

00:05:22   Bavaria when it's not actually in [TS]

00:05:24   Bavaria I didn't know this because I [TS]

00:05:25   don't know much about a German geography [TS]

00:05:27   a couple people complain that in the [TS]

00:05:31   audio book version which I'd never [TS]

00:05:32   listened to that the audio book person [TS]

00:05:34   pronounces Mac os10 as Mac OS X but then [TS]

00:05:38   I got one person who complained that the [TS]

00:05:40   audio book said Mac OS 10 instead of Mac [TS]

00:05:42   OS X so I don't know what the audio book [TS]

00:05:45   actually says but you know one person [TS]

00:05:47   complained that they misspelled the word [TS]

00:05:49   akido they forgot an eye in there which [TS]

00:05:53   seems strange because he figured I guess [TS]

00:05:56   that's not a spellcheck wouldn't catch [TS]

00:05:57   that but you think a book editor [TS]

00:05:58   spellcheck but yeah so a lot of people [TS]

00:05:59   wanted to share their own opinions so [TS]

00:06:01   that's pretty much how the the positive [TS]

00:06:05   feedback broke down but there was [TS]

00:06:09   negative feedback there was a large [TS]

00:06:10   volume of feedback period so just [TS]

00:06:11   because it was overwhelmingly positive [TS]

00:06:12   there was still more negative feedback [TS]

00:06:14   than usual in terms in raw numbers you [TS]

00:06:16   know so there was like a 100 tweets and [TS]

00:06:19   emails you know there was like 10 [TS]

00:06:21   negative ones but 10 is more than we [TS]

00:06:22   normally get the the main thing I saw in [TS]

00:06:27   the negative feedback is it made me [TS]

00:06:30   wonder if it's even possible to talk [TS]

00:06:34   about something you don't like in a [TS]

00:06:36   podcast format or written down or [TS]

00:06:37   whatever [TS]

00:06:38   and then later give a big long list of [TS]

00:06:41   nitpicks [TS]

00:06:42   without anyone who listens to it who [TS]

00:06:44   disagrees with you deciding that what [TS]

00:06:46   you're saying is because of the nitpicks [TS]

00:06:48   that's why you know that's the reason [TS]

00:06:49   this thing stinks doesn't it baby things [TS]

00:06:51   right and I tried so hard to separate it [TS]

00:06:53   in the past show like I did the first [TS]

00:06:54   part of you here's why I think there was [TS]

00:06:57   a problem with the book there was a [TS]

00:06:58   wasted opportunity blah blah and then I [TS]

00:07:00   said okay and now here's a bunch of [TS]

00:07:01   nitpicky stuff trying to separate them [TS]

00:07:03   so that people don't think that these [TS]

00:07:06   nitpicky things are the main primary [TS]

00:07:09   reason why this book is bad as a lots of [TS]

00:07:10   people were arguing into position I [TS]

00:07:12   didn't take you know oh you don't [TS]

00:07:13   little errors like that don't make a [TS]

00:07:15   book bad you're crazy [TS]

00:07:17   you know and it's just very difficult to [TS]

00:07:19   I mean I don't think I could have been [TS]

00:07:21   more clear and maybe I could have been [TS]

00:07:23   more clear but I really tried to hammer [TS]

00:07:25   home you know here is why I think the [TS]

00:07:27   book is not successful as it should have [TS]

00:07:29   been and then also hears these nitpick [TS]

00:07:31   things right um [TS]

00:07:33   and so maybe it's just like no matter [TS]

00:07:35   what I said once I started doing that [TS]

00:07:37   list people either just not interested [TS]

00:07:40   in the first things that I had to say or [TS]

00:07:42   just bounced off them and then once they [TS]

00:07:43   got to the nitpicky stuff since they [TS]

00:07:45   disagree with me like these are people [TS]

00:07:46   who like the book or disagree with my [TS]

00:07:48   opinion of it they're going to latch on [TS]

00:07:49   to that because it's easy to to attack [TS]

00:07:51   right or and some people just don't like [TS]

00:07:54   nitpicking like you know they don't they [TS]

00:07:56   don't like people picking that little [TS]

00:07:58   thing and I have to wonder if you don't [TS]

00:08:00   like nitpicking while you listen to show [TS]

00:08:01   called hypercritical I mean it maybes [TS]

00:08:03   new listeners I to be fair a lot this [TS]

00:08:04   got spread around a lot so a lot of the [TS]

00:08:06   people listening may have been listening [TS]

00:08:08   for the first time they didn't really [TS]

00:08:09   know what they're in for [TS]

00:08:10   it's not you know they have a valid [TS]

00:08:12   opinion if you don't like listening to [TS]

00:08:13   someone complain this is not the podcast [TS]

00:08:15   for you I'm sorry uh but you know to [TS]

00:08:20   recap for the people who listening now [TS]

00:08:22   just to emphasize once again the [TS]

00:08:24   nitpicks are not the reason that they're [TS]

00:08:26   not the primary reason that i found [TS]

00:08:28   fault with this book was mostly that [TS]

00:08:31   this was sort of the singular [TS]

00:08:34   opportunity for a complete scholarly [TS]

00:08:35   biography of a really important man and [TS]

00:08:37   I feel like that opportunity was [TS]

00:08:38   squandered by the author because what he [TS]

00:08:41   wrote was kind of a shallow [TS]

00:08:42   human-interest summary of his life with [TS]

00:08:44   not a lot of original investigation in [TS]

00:08:46   research and the examples I gave that in [TS]

00:08:49   the last show how come like the first [TS]

00:08:50   part was better because he had more [TS]

00:08:52   research [TS]

00:08:52   Paul from and he didn't seem to be very [TS]

00:08:53   curious about lots of topics and didn't [TS]

00:08:55   go through them and there's nothing [TS]

00:08:57   particularly wrong with a sort of you [TS]

00:09:00   know shallow human interest summary like [TS]

00:09:03   magazine style you know popular [TS]

00:09:05   biography but there's definitely a place [TS]

00:09:07   for those and some people like those and [TS]

00:09:09   he said this is exactly what I wanted [TS]

00:09:10   and I got what I wanted my complaint is [TS]

00:09:12   that you know if you want to write one [TS]

00:09:14   of those don't be the one guy who has [TS]

00:09:16   access to Steve Jobs because Steve Jobs [TS]

00:09:17   was so private and didn't allow people [TS]

00:09:19   in this was this is a unique singular [TS]

00:09:21   opportunity that was squandered that is [TS]

00:09:23   the primary reason that I have [TS]

00:09:25   complained about the book now later on [TS]

00:09:28   in this very podcast I'm going to talk [TS]

00:09:30   more about those nitpicky things don't [TS]

00:09:32   forget this part people that I said this [TS]

00:09:34   is the reason this is the primary reason [TS]

00:09:36   why I think the book was not successful [TS]

00:09:37   I will still talk about the Netflix and [TS]

00:09:39   I think they were they did have some [TS]

00:09:41   importance they were just not the [TS]

00:09:42   primary importance they're not even if [TS]

00:09:45   you eliminated all of them I don't think [TS]

00:09:46   that I would be happy with the book [TS]

00:09:48   they're just a symptom of a larger [TS]

00:09:49   problem so now let me let me clear [TS]

00:09:51   something up yeah [TS]

00:09:53   isn't the real reason that you are so [TS]

00:09:57   upset about this book isn't the real [TS]

00:10:00   reason that you are simply bitter that [TS]

00:10:03   you were not selected to write it that's [TS]

00:10:07   something that a lot of people if they [TS]

00:10:08   hear someone complain about stuff it's [TS]

00:10:12   kind of kind of gets back to the Steve [TS]

00:10:13   Jobs attack on that guy or sometimes you [TS]

00:10:17   see the movie critics to where they say [TS]

00:10:19   what have you done this so great or [TS]

00:10:21   where's your movie you're criticizing [TS]

00:10:24   this movie what let me see the better [TS]

00:10:25   movie that you've made the idea that you [TS]

00:10:27   can't criticize something without having [TS]

00:10:29   the ability to do it better right and [TS]

00:10:30   that the flip side of that is that when [TS]

00:10:32   you hear someone critter says something [TS]

00:10:33   and you agree with him you're like boy [TS]

00:10:34   that guy sure knows what's wrong you [TS]

00:10:36   know I agree with that guy about what [TS]

00:10:38   was wrong with this thing since he knows [TS]

00:10:40   so much about what's wrong with it that [TS]

00:10:41   means he could make a better thing so he [TS]

00:10:42   should the ability to understand what's [TS]

00:10:45   wrong with something has very little [TS]

00:10:46   relation direct correlation with the [TS]

00:10:49   ability to do a better thing my case [TS]

00:10:50   case in point Roger Ebert I don't think [TS]

00:10:52   that guy's made a lot of movies but he [TS]

00:10:53   should know the beyond the valley of the [TS]

00:10:56   dolls anyone the chat room know that he [TS]

00:10:57   wrote that one yeah [TS]

00:10:58   perhaps not the greatest movie ever you [TS]

00:11:00   know but but he sure does know what's [TS]

00:11:02   good well I don't that's all set for [TS]

00:11:05   talked about debating [TS]

00:11:06   Robert e Rene Candela journaling visa [TS]

00:11:08   eternal and tunngle me yeah I oh yeah so [TS]

00:11:12   I understand the sentiment of those [TS]

00:11:14   people but I've never written a book [TS]

00:11:15   writing a book is really hard you know [TS]

00:11:17   it took two years this wasn't his main I [TS]

00:11:19   don't think it was as Isaac's in the [TS]

00:11:20   main job for two years but it was two [TS]

00:11:22   years you know of pretty steady work and [TS]

00:11:24   tons of interviews and talking to people [TS]

00:11:26   and I don't think he did a good enough [TS]

00:11:29   job and didn't do it thoroughly enough [TS]

00:11:30   so to do a really good job you had to [TS]

00:11:32   send me back in time multiple years and [TS]

00:11:34   somehow support me for for multiple [TS]

00:11:37   years of intensive research and I would [TS]

00:11:38   still probably do a cruddy job as it [TS]

00:11:39   would be my very first book that I've [TS]

00:11:40   ever written so just because you agree [TS]

00:11:43   with me about what's wrong with it and [TS]

00:11:45   think that I you know I was right about [TS]

00:11:47   that doesn't mean I could do a better [TS]

00:11:49   job and so the flip side of that is no [TS]

00:11:51   I'm not angry because I think I could [TS]

00:11:53   have done a better job and well I I'm [TS]

00:11:56   not angry because I think someone [TS]

00:11:59   someone should have done a better job [TS]

00:12:00   and at some points I was so angry that I [TS]

00:12:02   entertained the silly notion that [TS]

00:12:04   actually I could have done a better job [TS]

00:12:05   I think I mentioned that in the previous [TS]

00:12:06   show but that's just like that's being [TS]

00:12:08   kind of silly it's just like you know [TS]

00:12:10   you get so angry this something like [TS]

00:12:11   this is so bad even I could've done [TS]

00:12:13   about it using me as an example to show [TS]

00:12:14   how horrible it is that even someone [TS]

00:12:17   with no experience seems like you could [TS]

00:12:18   have done right but really writing a [TS]

00:12:20   book is very difficult um so a lot of [TS]

00:12:25   the reactions I saw from the people who [TS]

00:12:26   agreed with me were like I was looking [TS]

00:12:29   forward to reading this book but now [TS]

00:12:30   that I heard the show I'm not looking [TS]

00:12:31   forward to it or I was going to get this [TS]

00:12:33   book for Christmas or I had an order and [TS]

00:12:34   I cancelled my order for the book and [TS]

00:12:36   some other people were asking like all [TS]

00:12:38   these bad things do you think I should [TS]

00:12:39   still read the book uh I think I said [TS]

00:12:43   any other show but I'll make it more [TS]

00:12:44   clear now [TS]

00:12:44   there's information in this book that [TS]

00:12:46   can't be felt found elsewhere because he [TS]

00:12:49   had exclusive access to Steve Jobs [TS]

00:12:51   nobody else did and complete access [TS]

00:12:53   right and well you can't find this [TS]

00:12:57   information anywhere else except perhaps [TS]

00:12:59   in every review of the book and [TS]

00:13:01   interview with the author because he [TS]

00:13:02   tends to pull out the the juiciest bits [TS]

00:13:03   and and all the reviews plug the [TS]

00:13:04   juiciest butt so I guess you can't get [TS]

00:13:06   the information that way but most of the [TS]

00:13:08   stuff is in the you know that the post [TS]

00:13:10   iMac jobs to era of Apple where [TS]

00:13:14   previously it was very little reporting [TS]

00:13:16   because apples just sort of so private [TS]

00:13:18   and all the employees were so private [TS]

00:13:19   after that fact so if you are excited [TS]

00:13:22   about this book you should probably [TS]

00:13:24   still get it because where else are you [TS]

00:13:26   going to get that information I mean it [TS]

00:13:28   it's something is better than nothing [TS]

00:13:30   reading a shallow book with with some [TS]

00:13:33   new information is better than not [TS]

00:13:34   having an information at all right if [TS]

00:13:36   you want more or better information read [TS]

00:13:40   a whole bunch of the other books of the [TS]

00:13:41   Isaacson pulled from right I mentioned [TS]

00:13:43   infinite loop in the plat in the past [TS]

00:13:45   show revolution in the valley Apple [TS]

00:13:47   confidential maybe even something like [TS]

00:13:49   the second coming of Steve Jobs or one [TS]

00:13:51   of those other Steve Jobs because the [TS]

00:13:53   whole bunch of the most of them are kind [TS]

00:13:54   of trashy but and if you want to get [TS]

00:13:55   really deep you can go to like Scully's [TS]

00:13:56   book Odyssey or Emilio's book on the [TS]

00:13:59   firing line just to get all sides of the [TS]

00:14:00   story if you really just want to you [TS]

00:14:02   know know everything you could possibly [TS]

00:14:03   know about it but if you just want an [TS]

00:14:05   overview I would say read infinite loop [TS]

00:14:07   for early Apple stuff and for for later [TS]

00:14:09   Apple stuff what choices do you have the [TS]

00:14:11   only people that Apple employees and [TS]

00:14:13   Steve Jobs himself decided to talk to or [TS]

00:14:16   you know Isaacson [TS]

00:14:17   so just because I think the book was [TS]

00:14:19   disappointing in a wasted opportunity [TS]

00:14:20   doesn't mean you should not buy the book [TS]

00:14:22   if you're interested in this information [TS]

00:14:23   and you were before you heard the [TS]

00:14:24   podcast get the book anyway because [TS]

00:14:26   knowing something is better than knowing [TS]

00:14:28   nothing all right [TS]

00:14:32   see I'm gonna get to this follow up come [TS]

00:14:33   on hmm so the nitpickers then picking [TS]

00:14:45   objectors people who don't like Vinit [TS]

00:14:47   picking I already went over that you [TS]

00:14:50   know this is not the main reason I [TS]

00:14:52   didn't like the book but now I do want [TS]

00:14:55   to actually discuss the nitpicking and [TS]

00:14:56   again try not to lose sight of the [TS]

00:14:59   context related picking them and like I [TS]

00:15:01   might spot it so my question for the [TS]

00:15:04   anti nitpicking people is what kind of [TS]

00:15:09   errors are permissible in a book of this [TS]

00:15:12   type like in a biography you know so [TS]

00:15:15   some might say if someone got a date [TS]

00:15:18   wrong by a day like it was April 22nd [TS]

00:15:20   April 21st that's missile glare right or [TS]

00:15:23   if someone misspelled someone's name or [TS]

00:15:27   a proper proper noun or something as [TS]

00:15:29   long as we all knew who they were [TS]

00:15:31   talking about that's permissible type of [TS]

00:15:32   error [TS]

00:15:33   I think we can all agree that you know [TS]

00:15:35   there's always going to be errors in the [TS]

00:15:36   some errors are not worth getting worked [TS]

00:15:38   up about right that's kind of the root [TS]

00:15:40   of the anti nitpicking people's like [TS]

00:15:42   these are these errors don't change the [TS]

00:15:43   content or meaning of the book right you [TS]

00:15:46   shouldn't get worked up about them my [TS]

00:15:48   question on that concept is given that [TS]

00:15:51   concept of permissible errors is there [TS]

00:15:53   count limit beyond which those formerly [TS]

00:15:55   permissible errors become non [TS]

00:15:56   permissible what if every proper noun in [TS]

00:15:58   the book was misspelled what if it was [TS]

00:16:00   misspelled differently each time you [TS]

00:16:01   could still tell who it was right but [TS]

00:16:04   like that there has to be a a limit [TS]

00:16:06   because if literally every proper noun [TS]

00:16:08   was spelled incorrectly in a new [TS]

00:16:09   incorrect different way every time even [TS]

00:16:11   if you could 100% understand who they [TS]

00:16:12   were talking about [TS]

00:16:13   you'd be annoyed by it right obviously [TS]

00:16:15   these are extreme said one extreme is [TS]

00:16:16   like one or two errors that no one cares [TS]

00:16:18   about the other extreme is just a [TS]

00:16:19   massive number and these are the same [TS]

00:16:20   types of errors very you know the court [TS]

00:16:23   on quote permissible errors all right so [TS]

00:16:25   that's the first point I want to make [TS]

00:16:27   that no matter how minor the error the [TS]

00:16:30   number of them the quantity is [TS]

00:16:31   meaningful right the second point I [TS]

00:16:35   wanna make is the the whole notion of [TS]

00:16:36   people said well the of course there are [TS]

00:16:37   as the book was rushed out right because [TS]

00:16:40   I've heard that a lot that that yes [TS]

00:16:41   people this was real the book was rushed [TS]

00:16:44   how can you blame him why why be angry [TS]

00:16:46   at him the book was rushed right I'm she [TS]

00:16:48   presumably rushed being up because he [TS]

00:16:50   died and they thought he would live [TS]

00:16:51   longer you know the right someone's over [TS]

00:16:53   all right so my question on that is all [TS]

00:16:55   right so does that does that make the [TS]

00:16:57   errors okay does that make errors that [TS]

00:16:59   would formerly not be permissible [TS]

00:17:00   suddenly permissible because the book [TS]

00:17:01   was rushed and it was a example I was [TS]

00:17:04   thinking of like say say you hired [TS]

00:17:05   someone to paint in your house and the [TS]

00:17:06   house painters got paint all over your [TS]

00:17:08   window glass and someone says hated the [TS]

00:17:09   painters do a good job and you say oh [TS]

00:17:11   well they were in a hurry [TS]

00:17:13   what's the answer did the really good [TS]

00:17:15   job well they were in a hurry right and [TS]

00:17:18   so and the other thing is someone sent [TS]

00:17:21   me just before the show a link to a New [TS]

00:17:22   York Times that interview with Isaacson [TS]

00:17:24   and the New York Times asked did you [TS]

00:17:27   publish the book early because you knew [TS]

00:17:28   mr. jobs is going to die and what [TS]

00:17:30   isaacman said is the book was done in [TS]

00:17:32   June I talked to my publishers and we [TS]

00:17:34   couldn't quite figure out when to [TS]

00:17:35   publish it there was no hard-and-fast [TS]

00:17:36   publication date so we sat decided to [TS]

00:17:38   set a date when Steve stepped down a CEO [TS]

00:17:39   in August and I said the end of the book [TS]

00:17:42   was different then it was him leaving [TS]

00:17:44   Apple of course than the end had to be [TS]

00:17:45   changed so it seems like the only part [TS]

00:17:47   that had to be [TS]

00:17:47   change in a rush job was the ending part [TS]

00:17:49   like the very ending you know like that [TS]

00:17:50   he's not just leaving he's actually uh [TS]

00:17:52   how died so I would include a couple of [TS]

00:17:55   cancer chapters in the later parts of [TS]

00:17:57   the book so I don't know maybe maybe he [TS]

00:18:01   was done with it in June the editing [TS]

00:18:02   wasn't done I don't know but either way [TS]

00:18:05   it was rushed is not it doesn't make [TS]

00:18:08   doesn't change the the nature of the [TS]

00:18:11   errors to be more permissible you know [TS]

00:18:14   it's just an excuse it's like it's like [TS]

00:18:16   the house painters who were in a hurry [TS]

00:18:17   you also what is still a bad job [TS]

00:18:18   painting the house and and the thing [TS]

00:18:21   about biography is like if you don't [TS]

00:18:23   care if you don't care about factual [TS]

00:18:26   errors in a biography what do you care [TS]

00:18:28   about what are you looking for in a [TS]

00:18:29   biography obviously again there are [TS]

00:18:31   errors that are that seem minor and that [TS]

00:18:33   are permissible but the the number and [TS]

00:18:36   severity of factual errors in this book [TS]

00:18:39   regardless of the cause though it was [TS]

00:18:40   rushed or whatever it'll be fixed in [TS]

00:18:43   later versions it it lessens the value [TS]

00:18:46   of the books it makes it a worse book [TS]

00:18:48   but one of the important things Barger [TS]

00:18:51   we should get right is the facts of the [TS]

00:18:52   person's life what they're talking about [TS]

00:18:54   and the facts aren't just how things are [TS]

00:18:55   spelled but you know significant factors [TS]

00:18:58   of you who dread what to did what on [TS]

00:19:00   what date you know product decisions and [TS]

00:19:04   what they you know evolved in classic [TS]

00:19:06   Mac OS versus going with the next [TS]

00:19:07   operating since like they the eras in [TS]

00:19:10   this book escalated way beyond what I [TS]

00:19:11   would consider permissible and of the [TS]

00:19:13   quote unquote permissible errors there [TS]

00:19:14   was a large number of them so I think [TS]

00:19:16   this lessens the quality of the book [TS]

00:19:18   again this is not why the book the major [TS]

00:19:20   reason that the book was disappointing [TS]

00:19:21   to me but it's like a symptom of other [TS]

00:19:24   problems and it you know it's a demerit [TS]

00:19:27   it's it counts in the negative column [TS]

00:19:29   for a biography and it's you know be a [TS]

00:19:31   sort of apologist for this book I don't [TS]

00:19:33   look what their motivation is but like [TS]

00:19:34   it's okay to have lots of factual errors [TS]

00:19:36   in a biography not a big deal it was [TS]

00:19:37   rushed I just don't get that mindset [TS]

00:19:39   doesn't mean you say the book is [TS]

00:19:40   horrible and you should never read it I [TS]

00:19:41   just said that you should read this to [TS]

00:19:43   get the information out of it and people [TS]

00:19:44   may read it enjoy it because this is [TS]

00:19:46   exactly what they're looking for I just [TS]

00:19:47   think it's a missed opportunity because [TS]

00:19:49   it was a unique opportunity so we had [TS]

00:19:53   some misinterpretations of what I said I [TS]

00:19:55   had a section on the last podcast it was [TS]

00:19:56   Steve Jobs enemy of progress or [TS]

00:19:58   something like that [TS]

00:20:00   I thought that was like sufficiently [TS]

00:20:01   tongue-in-cheek and procedures that [TS]

00:20:03   people would understand that I wasn't [TS]

00:20:04   actually saying that Steve Jobs is the [TS]

00:20:06   enemy of progress it was supposed the [TS]

00:20:08   title supposed to be you know funny when [TS]

00:20:10   I was mostly there was poking holes in [TS]

00:20:12   the idea the Steve Jobs on the right [TS]

00:20:14   side of every important decision that [TS]

00:20:15   Apple made right biggest here were some [TS]

00:20:18   concrete examples of where he was on the [TS]

00:20:20   wrong side and had to be convinced and a [TS]

00:20:22   lot of people said well yeah he had to [TS]

00:20:23   be convinced but he was successfully [TS]

00:20:25   convinced and eventually it gave in to [TS]

00:20:27   the people who want to gather way so [TS]

00:20:28   that shows his genius [TS]

00:20:29   well isn't it better to be on the right [TS]

00:20:31   side and not have to be convinced [TS]

00:20:33   especially doing in a big pouty way like [TS]

00:20:34   you you jerks fine we'll do iPod on [TS]

00:20:36   windows uh but yes to his credit he did [TS]

00:20:40   he did allow the stuff even when he [TS]

00:20:42   disagree with he allowed himself to be [TS]

00:20:43   convinced by the other people around him [TS]

00:20:44   all right [TS]

00:20:45   and people say yes that shows his [TS]

00:20:47   brilliance I just think there's you know [TS]

00:20:49   when I was may important section was [TS]

00:20:51   sort of the anti deification of jobs [TS]

00:20:53   where some people think that everything [TS]

00:20:55   he does is exactly right and it was [TS]

00:20:57   carefully planned and even like his [TS]

00:20:59   refusal of an idea was just his way of [TS]

00:21:01   challenging people beneath him like he [TS]

00:21:03   is like he's never wrong he's infallible [TS]

00:21:04   everything even when he seems to be [TS]

00:21:06   wrong he's really using his wrong as to [TS]

00:21:07   manipulate other people into having [TS]

00:21:09   stronger arguments against them and it's [TS]

00:21:10   just you can turn any argument into you [TS]

00:21:13   know that to support your opinion the [TS]

00:21:16   Steve Jobs was infallible because he [TS]

00:21:18   could say well everything he did it [TS]

00:21:19   worked out well in the end right I I you [TS]

00:21:21   know again enemy of progress and [TS]

00:21:23   obviously he's like the greatest CEO [TS]

00:21:25   ever in terms of results he turned the [TS]

00:21:27   company around oh he's arguing in this [TS]

00:21:28   fax that's why the title Steve Jobs [TS]

00:21:32   enemy of progress is supposed to be [TS]

00:21:33   funny because it's so obviously [TS]

00:21:34   ridiculous and you know but it is I [TS]

00:21:37   think this is something you get out of [TS]

00:21:39   the this it the the information in the [TS]

00:21:42   book that there were some situations [TS]

00:21:44   where he did things wrong someone that [TS]

00:21:47   written through the chat room says uh [TS]

00:21:49   challenging me to find a single example [TS]

00:21:51   of anyone who says Jobs was infallible [TS]

00:21:52   like I'm setting up a strong man for [TS]

00:21:54   this but the people who ride in are [TS]

00:21:57   taking these examples were jobs on the [TS]

00:21:59   wrong side of decision and using them as [TS]

00:22:01   evidence that Steve Jobs wasn't actually [TS]

00:22:05   on the wrong side of the thing this is [TS]

00:22:06   you know a way that he was using to to [TS]

00:22:09   help make people have stronger arguments [TS]

00:22:11   and really he was on the right side of [TS]

00:22:12   it just wanted [TS]

00:22:13   better arguments those people didn't say [TS]

00:22:15   that he was infallible but that type of [TS]

00:22:17   convoluted logic makes me think that [TS]

00:22:18   they're going to every argument they [TS]

00:22:20   have is going to be in support of the I [TS]

00:22:22   of the premise that he was correct [TS]

00:22:25   because that's quite a way to bend over [TS]

00:22:26   backwards when there's like clear [TS]

00:22:28   evidence that he just didn't want [TS]

00:22:29   something that was obviously turned out [TS]

00:22:30   to be really good and had to be [TS]

00:22:32   convinced the other way so I'm not [TS]

00:22:34   trying to set up a straw man here I'm [TS]

00:22:35   just saying like when you see someone [TS]

00:22:36   with going through those kind of [TS]

00:22:39   contortions to support this type of [TS]

00:22:42   notion you have to think well is there [TS]

00:22:44   anything he could do that you would that [TS]

00:22:45   you would admit was you know a mistake [TS]

00:22:47   or something so all right I've got those [TS]

00:22:52   people a big theme that a Gruber brought [TS]

00:22:57   up in on the talk show and I've got a [TS]

00:22:59   lot of email about from a lot of people [TS]

00:23:02   was from both people who liked the book [TS]

00:23:03   and people who didn't like the book was [TS]

00:23:05   the idea that either way uh you know [TS]

00:23:08   jobs pick this guy uh and maybe he knew [TS]

00:23:12   what he was getting maybe he picked this [TS]

00:23:13   guy because he knew what kind of book [TS]

00:23:15   Isaac summoned right and he wanted that [TS]

00:23:18   kind of book right and that this is [TS]

00:23:19   going a little bit more into detail is [TS]

00:23:21   that that the Steve Jobs in [TS]

00:23:24   characteristic fashion understood very [TS]

00:23:28   clearly exactly what Isaacson's skillset [TS]

00:23:32   and weaknesses were and that he selected [TS]

00:23:36   him as opposed to any of the other [TS]

00:23:38   people that we mentioned on any of the [TS]

00:23:40   other shows or you because he knew that [TS]

00:23:43   this is exactly the kind of book that he [TS]

00:23:46   would write and this is the kind of book [TS]

00:23:48   he wanted to leave behind for the world [TS]

00:23:51   yes and and I think it's interesting [TS]

00:23:52   because like I said people who really [TS]

00:23:54   like the book and people who really [TS]

00:23:55   didn't like the book both offered this [TS]

00:23:57   theory the first thing I would say about [TS]

00:23:59   this theory is I think it smells a [TS]

00:24:01   little bit like to me another example of [TS]

00:24:03   the you know the cult of jobs where [TS]

00:24:05   everything he does is like a super [TS]

00:24:07   master plan and he's infallible and he's [TS]

00:24:08   you know he exactly knew what kind of [TS]

00:24:10   book this guy would write you know or he [TS]

00:24:13   picked them because he knew he could [TS]

00:24:14   manipulate him into writing the book [TS]

00:24:15   that he wanted despite the fact that [TS]

00:24:17   jobs insisted that he never be seen it [TS]

00:24:20   see anything in the book have no limits [TS]

00:24:21   on what it accesses or whatever and [TS]

00:24:23   still he just knew like byte by picking [TS]

00:24:25   this guy he could see the future the [TS]

00:24:26   exact book [TS]

00:24:27   I think I find that farfetch'd [TS]

00:24:29   farfetch'd the Steve Jobs would think [TS]

00:24:31   that he could do that in far-fetched [TS]

00:24:32   that he would be successfully pull it [TS]

00:24:34   off I I think that's based on a [TS]

00:24:36   priscilly premise of infallibility which [TS]

00:24:38   if anything should be cut down by all [TS]

00:24:40   the rest of this book showing how human [TS]

00:24:41   Steve Jobs really was oh now there is a [TS]

00:24:44   possibility that he thought whoever he [TS]

00:24:47   picked that jobs thought he could steer [TS]

00:24:49   the conversation a certain way because [TS]

00:24:51   he's you know master manipulator in his [TS]

00:24:53   own mind and in in reality in many cases [TS]

00:24:55   right uh and so he had to know something [TS]

00:24:58   like you know Isaacson is kind of a news [TS]

00:25:00   magazine type guy from time he kind of [TS]

00:25:01   knew the type of stuff he would write [TS]

00:25:03   about uh but I have a hard time [TS]

00:25:06   believing that like the what the one [TS]

00:25:10   thing I'll give Isaacson credit for is [TS]

00:25:12   that I think if Jobs tried to refuse to [TS]

00:25:17   talk about a certain topic or like you [TS]

00:25:19   know just fenced him off and didn't like [TS]

00:25:21   did type of invasive stuff you do when [TS]

00:25:23   you have a report like say reporters [TS]

00:25:25   talking to a politician the reporter [TS]

00:25:26   tries to nail him down if the reporters [TS]

00:25:28   Stonewall's on something you know if the [TS]

00:25:29   subject stone walls in something that's [TS]

00:25:31   something that Isaacson would have [TS]

00:25:32   written about he would have been like I [TS]

00:25:34   tried to talk the jabs about what's this [TS]

00:25:35   thing I thought was really important and [TS]

00:25:37   he still in Walled me so I had to go [TS]

00:25:38   around him and I had to press him on and [TS]

00:25:39   I had to find out like that's just [TS]

00:25:41   reporter chasing a story so I have a [TS]

00:25:43   hard time believing that Isaacson was [TS]

00:25:45   thwarted by jobs either by jobs telling [TS]

00:25:48   people not to talk to him or refusing [TS]

00:25:49   you know like there was some hidden [TS]

00:25:51   agenda that I said wouldn't write about [TS]

00:25:52   that because that's his bread and butter [TS]

00:25:53   the press saying I tried to get this [TS]

00:25:56   information but they love you know like [TS]

00:25:57   in 60 minutes they love showing you get [TS]

00:25:58   the door slammed in their faces or [TS]

00:26:00   whatever like that's just solid regular [TS]

00:26:02   you know TV magazine news reporting [TS]

00:26:05   there's no way that Isaacson would have [TS]

00:26:07   would have been subjected to that and [TS]

00:26:08   not written about it so I take [TS]

00:26:09   everything he said at face value he had [TS]

00:26:11   complete access job said nothing was [TS]

00:26:13   off-limits he was allowed to talk to [TS]

00:26:15   everybody all evidence points to that [TS]

00:26:17   all rationality points to that so if [TS]

00:26:19   that's the case I don't think that Jobs [TS]

00:26:23   could have manipulated the content in [TS]

00:26:26   any real way given the universal access [TS]

00:26:29   and given the fact that the jobs never [TS]

00:26:31   pressed back on it right but still you [TS]

00:26:34   cuz I find so maybe maybe that's that's [TS]

00:26:36   the beauty of manipulation Isaacson [TS]

00:26:37   didn't even know he's been he thought he [TS]

00:26:39   had complete access and yet jobs [TS]

00:26:40   during him in a certain direction all [TS]

00:26:42   right so my second answer to the the [TS]

00:26:44   jobs pick this guy because he wanted it [TS]

00:26:46   this way is either way the way you [TS]

00:26:48   believe he did it or didn't it was [TS]

00:26:49   successful or wasn't you say the same [TS]

00:26:51   thing about the Star Wars special [TS]

00:26:52   editions in the prequels George Lucas [TS]

00:26:54   wanted to display this doesn't make it [TS]

00:26:56   good that you know is again it's the [TS]

00:27:00   cult of jobs well because jobs wanted [TS]

00:27:01   this way you know therefore it is good [TS]

00:27:04   no I don't really care what jobs wanted [TS]

00:27:07   him like he wanted this book to but you [TS]

00:27:08   know obviously he gets to pick who he [TS]

00:27:09   gets to pick but as an important [TS]

00:27:12   historical figure I am disappointed that [TS]

00:27:13   I didn't get a better more thorough more [TS]

00:27:17   thoroughly researched biography with [TS]

00:27:20   access to the actual person and all the [TS]

00:27:22   all the people involved right so if that [TS]

00:27:26   makes you feel better about it then [TS]

00:27:27   maybe you also feel better about the [TS]

00:27:29   special editions of Star Wars in the [TS]

00:27:30   prequels because George Lucas Lando [TS]

00:27:31   because trust me George Lucas wanted it [TS]

00:27:33   that way this is no good alright finally [TS]

00:27:36   a specific issue and the show I was [TS]

00:27:38   talking about PA semi and about I I [TS]

00:27:41   tried to be uh I try not to make it [TS]

00:27:45   sound like I was sure about this because [TS]

00:27:46   I wasn't I kept saying didn't they hire [TS]

00:27:48   it want PA semi to make them PowerPC [TS]

00:27:50   chips you know again I said in the book [TS]

00:27:52   that the book said they made the a four [TS]

00:27:54   and I'm like yeah that that seems [TS]

00:27:56   reasonable to me but then they want to [TS]

00:27:57   make PowerPC chips and how'd that work [TS]

00:27:59   out like there's some big store with P a [TS]

00:28:00   semi that I remember seeing rumors of [TS]

00:28:03   and I would have liked it if the guy [TS]

00:28:05   with access to all the actual people [TS]

00:28:07   including Steve Jobs himself would have [TS]

00:28:10   expanded on that story as an example [TS]

00:28:13   that's another interesting I would have [TS]

00:28:14   liked to have seen there is we saw a [TS]

00:28:16   little bit in the early chapters about [TS]

00:28:18   jobs and Alisa team and how like if you [TS]

00:28:21   are even if you were in the same company [TS]

00:28:22   if you weren't on his team you were kind [TS]

00:28:25   of like on the outs and I would kind of [TS]

00:28:26   canned half the Lisa team and just those [TS]

00:28:28   were the loser guys because they weren't [TS]

00:28:30   it's like you're not with me you're [TS]

00:28:30   against me even within the same company [TS]

00:28:32   I would have loved to have seen in the [TS]

00:28:34   modern era how how that worked when for [TS]

00:28:38   example Apple purchased another company [TS]

00:28:39   but those were all outsiders and you [TS]

00:28:41   know how did they assimilate into the [TS]

00:28:43   team like it at that point the entire [TS]

00:28:45   company was Steve Jobs his team and then [TS]

00:28:46   you buy PA semi with these other people [TS]

00:28:48   who were on Apple employees you know how [TS]

00:28:52   did how did Jobs handle that [TS]

00:28:54   how it was he more accepting that he [TS]

00:28:56   integrate them into the fold or was he [TS]

00:28:58   just unforgiving like those were all the [TS]

00:28:59   losers and he fired most of them just [TS]

00:29:00   like I wanted to know more about pxm [TS]

00:29:02   abuse I thought oh but it was it's an [TS]

00:29:04   important part of the history of the [TS]

00:29:05   company it would have been illuminating [TS]

00:29:06   to Steve Jobs character uh but in terms [TS]

00:29:09   of the specific case of me thinking that [TS]

00:29:11   they were they were purchased to make a [TS]

00:29:13   PowerPC chip that chronology was wrong [TS]

00:29:15   because PA semi was bought in 2008 but [TS]

00:29:17   the Intel transition was over by 2006 [TS]

00:29:19   now PA semi originally did make a series [TS]

00:29:21   of PowerPC chips or maybe they just [TS]

00:29:23   reference designs or something uh and so [TS]

00:29:25   the rumors I think were like that Apple [TS]

00:29:27   was interested in what PA semi was doing [TS]

00:29:29   kind of in a vague way because they were [TS]

00:29:31   just desperate for anyone to make a fast [TS]

00:29:32   PowerPC chip for them there you know I [TS]

00:29:34   wanted IBM to do it and you know the [TS]

00:29:36   Motorola was dropping the ball you know [TS]

00:29:37   so way back before PA semi was purchased [TS]

00:29:40   they may have been some rumors and [TS]

00:29:41   interest revolving around a PowerPC chip [TS]

00:29:45   from P SME for apples purposes but that [TS]

00:29:47   was never gone into in the book and and [TS]

00:29:48   it's all just rumors so finally we can [TS]

00:29:52   resume where I left off pretty good [TS]

00:29:55   12:30 resume where I left off in the [TS]

00:29:57   last show oh if I could find my spot [TS]

00:30:01   here all right I read off all the [TS]

00:30:05   sections the sections I had remaining in [TS]

00:30:07   the last show and I added one to the top [TS]

00:30:10   of it first what they wanted to sponsor [TS]

00:30:14   before I go into this in part of the job [TS]

00:30:16   may I [TS]

00:30:16   you may alright if if I may we would [TS]

00:30:20   like to say thank you to our first [TS]

00:30:23   sponsor it is squarespace.com the secret [TS]

00:30:27   behind exceptional websites I don't know [TS]

00:30:29   if I told you this John I've been [TS]

00:30:30   bringing backs and my older older sites [TS]

00:30:33   them and thinking man I you know I don't [TS]

00:30:35   want to totally get rid of these what [TS]

00:30:36   can I do with them and I'm going to be [TS]

00:30:39   turning a Squarespace because I'll tell [TS]

00:30:40   you what they did fully hosted [TS]

00:30:41   completely managed environment for very [TS]

00:30:45   quickly creating beautiful website a [TS]

00:30:46   matter of minutes [TS]

00:30:47   they host everything there on a grid [TS]

00:30:51   they scale there in the cloud all of [TS]

00:30:52   that so it's you don't have to worry [TS]

00:30:55   about servers or uptime or getting [TS]

00:30:56   linked by daring fireball it all of this [TS]

00:30:59   is just handled if you like designing [TS]

00:31:02   websites you can you have full and [TS]

00:31:04   complete control over the HTML and CSS [TS]

00:31:06   if you don't [TS]

00:31:07   you don't even know what CSS stands for [TS]

00:31:09   it doesn't matter you can click and [TS]

00:31:12   point and amazing things will happen you [TS]

00:31:16   can pick from there they just released a [TS]

00:31:18   whole bunch of new fresh designs and new [TS]

00:31:21   templates that you can check out all of [TS]

00:31:23   this is included this is an extra this [TS]

00:31:25   doesn't cost any more and it's very [TS]

00:31:27   affordable anyway [TS]

00:31:28   but here's here's the really cool thing [TS]

00:31:30   all you need to do is click in a couple [TS]

00:31:35   places and you can get full integration [TS]

00:31:38   whether it's analytics whether it's [TS]

00:31:39   integrating Twitter whatever you want to [TS]

00:31:42   do and they can import your existing [TS]

00:31:44   blog typically in like one step they [TS]

00:31:46   even bring over the images they copy [TS]

00:31:48   your posts they make sure all the links [TS]

00:31:49   work you can try them out for free for [TS]

00:31:52   two weeks 14 days you don't need to even [TS]

00:31:55   give them a credit card but if it turns [TS]

00:31:58   out that you like them you can get 20% [TS]

00:32:01   off for six months how do you do that [TS]

00:32:04   you go to squarespace.com slash 5x5 and [TS]

00:32:08   once you're there you use the coupon [TS]

00:32:10   code in motion chip 11 so emotion chip [TS]

00:32:14   spelled out and then the number 11 then [TS]

00:32:18   you'll get 20% off for six months [TS]

00:32:20   Squarespace com that's reliable Kieran [TS]

00:32:27   Haley in the chatroom pointed out the [TS]

00:32:28   other aspect of the theory that like [TS]

00:32:30   jobs picked this guy on purpose because [TS]

00:32:33   he knew what you'll be getting the other [TS]

00:32:34   theory is that it's it's part of jobs as [TS]

00:32:37   character as part of his vanity that he [TS]

00:32:39   wanted to pick the guy who also had done [TS]

00:32:41   biographies of Einstein at Franklin [TS]

00:32:43   which is kind of a it's believable but [TS]

00:32:48   then again someone with such amazing [TS]

00:32:51   attention to detail I don't know it's [TS]

00:32:53   hard it's hard to figure out like [TS]

00:32:55   obviously I think he picked the wrong [TS]

00:32:56   guy for the purpose of history and just [TS]

00:33:00   you know all for the good of all of us [TS]

00:33:02   as readers right I would be interested [TS]

00:33:05   to see if he read the book if when he [TS]

00:33:06   finished with it if he was still alive [TS]

00:33:07   if he thinks he picked the right guy in [TS]

00:33:09   terms if he got what he wanted again I [TS]

00:33:11   don't think him getting what he wanted [TS]

00:33:12   it changes my opinion of the end result [TS]

00:33:15   one way or the other because I don't [TS]

00:33:16   really care what he wanted my biography [TS]

00:33:17   is not about you know supposed to be [TS]

00:33:19   about it historical record or understand [TS]

00:33:21   the person it's not about satisfying the [TS]

00:33:22   person the biography is about right so a [TS]

00:33:26   lot of people have asked uh you know who [TS]

00:33:30   should have written it and we made you [TS]

00:33:31   know we're talking about like when I was [TS]

00:33:33   in the depths of my despair about it [TS]

00:33:35   that like anybody anybody I knew had [TS]

00:33:36   written anything online could be done [TS]

00:33:37   better job because they would have been [TS]

00:33:39   at the very least like you know [TS]

00:33:41   enthusiastic and hungry about it [TS]

00:33:44   that was actually quote from this this [TS]

00:33:45   this New York Times one on one is full [TS]

00:33:46   of things that make me angry [TS]

00:33:49   where is this quote so one of the [TS]

00:33:53   questions was to Isaacson do you worry [TS]

00:33:56   that your name will always be linked to [TS]

00:33:57   Steve Jobs and Isaacson says no that [TS]

00:34:00   will pass I have a very life Steve Jobs [TS]

00:34:02   was just one of many biographies I've [TS]

00:34:03   written which is true and that's another [TS]

00:34:05   reason I thought that any any random you [TS]

00:34:08   know Apple fan on the web who can write [TS]

00:34:10   would have not considered the Steve Jobs [TS]

00:34:12   bio just being like now it's just [TS]

00:34:13   another thing I'm doing right they would [TS]

00:34:15   have just been hard core completely into [TS]

00:34:17   it [TS]

00:34:18   maybe they wouldn't have done a better [TS]

00:34:20   job either but I'm just saying like that [TS]

00:34:21   that's that's emblematic of one of my [TS]

00:34:24   main complaints about the the bio is [TS]

00:34:26   that it just it didn't seem like a big [TS]

00:34:28   deal for him and he didn't treat it as [TS]

00:34:29   seriously as I thought he should have [TS]

00:34:30   been going to depth he said I should [TS]

00:34:32   have so so seriously speaking you know [TS]

00:34:34   who should have written this who's you [TS]

00:34:35   know who would have done a better job [TS]

00:34:37   now I don't read a lot of bar if he has [TS]

00:34:38   only read a handful in my life but I [TS]

00:34:40   knew right away like even before I [TS]

00:34:43   started reading the book when I knew [TS]

00:34:45   there's going to be official jobs bio [TS]

00:34:46   like I you know I had fantasies that [TS]

00:34:48   this would be the person to do it so my [TS]

00:34:49   favorite biography that I've ever read [TS]

00:34:51   is the power broker by Robert Caro it's [TS]

00:34:56   my favorite biography for many reasons [TS]

00:34:57   many of which may not necessarily be [TS]

00:34:59   relevant appeal first of all I grew up [TS]

00:35:01   on Long Island which is where the story [TS]

00:35:05   takes place it's a biography of Robert [TS]

00:35:07   Moses who was a big part of the [TS]

00:35:10   infrastructure in the Long Island New [TS]

00:35:13   York metro area in terms of making roads [TS]

00:35:14   and bridges and parks and everything my [TS]

00:35:18   father worked for the department [TS]

00:35:19   transportation in New York State I'm you [TS]

00:35:22   know I love the beaches of Long Island [TS]

00:35:24   and the parkways that he's made and [TS]

00:35:25   Robert Moses is one of my favorite [TS]

00:35:27   beaches you know in the entire world [TS]

00:35:29   that I've been to [TS]

00:35:30   so obviously I'm predisposed to like [TS]

00:35:32   this book but it's not just me I believe [TS]

00:35:34   that Robert Caro run pealed surprise for [TS]

00:35:37   this biography and also Robert Caro's [TS]

00:35:39   best known I think are most known now [TS]

00:35:41   for doing a an insane biography of is it [TS]

00:35:46   Lyndon Johnson command I should have [TS]

00:35:48   liked this yes he's in the process of [TS]

00:35:52   doing a multi-volume giant biography of [TS]

00:35:54   one of the Lyndon Johnson I believe but [TS]

00:35:58   but the power book was just about one [TS]

00:35:59   guy's about a thousand page book and [TS]

00:36:04   it's if it's very it's kind of dry I [TS]

00:36:08   would say like if you long aside [TS]

00:36:11   everyone go out and read the power [TS]

00:36:11   broker because it's a thousand pages [TS]

00:36:13   about a biography of a person you've [TS]

00:36:14   probably never heard of uh and it goes [TS]

00:36:17   into insane detail every angle every [TS]

00:36:20   aspect of this person's life is export [TS]

00:36:22   explored you know ten ways to son of any [TS]

00:36:25   person who's ever known ever talked to [TS]

00:36:27   him ever work to him anyone involved in [TS]

00:36:29   any situation all sides of it [TS]

00:36:31   extensively reported and catalogued and [TS]

00:36:34   described and there is an overall [TS]

00:36:36   narrative to it which people do like [TS]

00:36:38   again it is a thousand thousand page [TS]

00:36:40   book so it may be tough to get through [TS]

00:36:41   but one of the reasons people seem to [TS]

00:36:44   love the power broker is that karo does [TS]

00:36:46   weave a narrative through it and I [TS]

00:36:47   mentioned the previous thing the Isaacs [TS]

00:36:49   and you know you can do a biography [TS]

00:36:50   where you just sort of report the facts [TS]

00:36:52   and you can do one where you have like [TS]

00:36:53   an editorial opinion I and I complained [TS]

00:36:55   about Isaacson because he mostly stayed [TS]

00:36:58   out of it and then just doing these [TS]

00:36:59   little jabs that were not supported karo [TS]

00:37:01   takes the approach of he's got an [TS]

00:37:04   opinion of of the life of Robert Moses [TS]

00:37:08   he's got a story he's got a narrative [TS]

00:37:10   these built and he hasn't then he didn't [TS]

00:37:12   come in with the narrative he didn't [TS]

00:37:13   come in and say here's what I think I [TS]

00:37:14   think Robert Moses is a jerk and I'm [TS]

00:37:16   going to build a book around that he [TS]

00:37:17   arrived at the narrative but is studying [TS]

00:37:20   the life extensively and then weave that [TS]

00:37:22   narrative into it to help you understand [TS]

00:37:24   the significance of every event and how [TS]

00:37:26   was influenced by the character the [TS]

00:37:27   person how it changed the character of [TS]

00:37:28   the person so that's why people really [TS]

00:37:30   love this biography it was finished in [TS]

00:37:32   1974 so it's a very old book and it [TS]

00:37:35   talks about events that were happening [TS]

00:37:36   before then Robert Moses I think died in [TS]

00:37:38   like the early 80s so Robert Moses was [TS]

00:37:40   alive when this book was written [TS]

00:37:42   and if you read this book like if you [TS]

00:37:45   really want to know what do I think a [TS]

00:37:46   rant biography has read this book it's a [TS]

00:37:47   thousand pages when you're done with [TS]

00:37:49   that I hope you'll understand what what [TS]

00:37:51   in my dreams I expected out of Steve [TS]

00:37:53   Jobs with a job biography right ah so [TS]

00:37:56   this is that's the type of person to do [TS]

00:37:58   it that's the type of thing I wanted and [TS]

00:38:00   when you get done with that book like [TS]

00:38:01   hold your ears now he did seven [TS]

00:38:05   interviews with Robert Moses you read [TS]

00:38:07   that booking like this is from seven [TS]

00:38:09   interviews now how many interviews do [TS]

00:38:10   you think that I just think that was [TS]

00:38:12   Steve Jobs I think he said some like [TS]

00:38:13   forty or more so it sounds about right [TS]

00:38:15   like a huge number of inches with Steve [TS]

00:38:17   Jobs and you can be like 40 interviews [TS]

00:38:19   equals the islands in book and then [TS]

00:38:20   seven interviews equals this giant thing [TS]

00:38:22   like no wait well it's because he didn't [TS]

00:38:25   it just take from Robert Moses Russell [TS]

00:38:26   Robert Moses was kind of like Steve Jobs [TS]

00:38:28   and he wasn't like but it was different [TS]

00:38:30   in Rob Moses doesn't like come write a [TS]

00:38:31   biography of me you know was not all [TS]

00:38:33   gung-ho for the whole thing it was kind [TS]

00:38:35   of more of an adversarial relationship [TS]

00:38:36   uh it wasn't it was the it was not like [TS]

00:38:40   the jobs thing so that's why there's [TS]

00:38:41   fewer interviews but did that stop him [TS]

00:38:43   did he say well I won't get seven [TS]

00:38:44   interviews and this buddy told me so [TS]

00:38:45   it's all I can write about no he did the [TS]

00:38:47   legwork for years and years of legwork [TS]

00:38:49   to just find out everything you possibly [TS]

00:38:50   know it's kind of like a biography of a [TS]

00:38:53   historian where the everyone's dead and [TS]

00:38:55   you got to figure it out [TS]

00:38:56   it's that combined with all the best of [TS]

00:38:58   what if everyone's still alive because [TS]

00:38:59   the people were still alive for the most [TS]

00:39:00   part he talked to everyone involved [TS]

00:39:03   everyone and just did his homework and [TS]

00:39:05   just made so much more insightful [TS]

00:39:08   compelling informative educational [TS]

00:39:11   biography than this I see something now [TS]

00:39:13   this is the feeling this is a high [TS]

00:39:15   standard also it should have been [TS]

00:39:16   appealed surprise printing a biography [TS]

00:39:18   by Robert Caro of you know high bar I [TS]

00:39:20   understand that and maybe the Lyndon [TS]

00:39:23   Johnson thing is too much because it's [TS]

00:39:25   like you know uh multiple volumes I [TS]

00:39:29   think it's not done but uh if anyone [TS]

00:39:31   wants to read a great biography read the [TS]

00:39:33   power broker and maybe if it was half as [TS]

00:39:37   good as that I would have been ecstatic [TS]

00:39:39   if it was but the in my dreams that's [TS]

00:39:41   what the jobs buy it would have been [TS]

00:39:42   like some of the chat room ask how many [TS]

00:39:48   interviews I would have done with Steve [TS]

00:39:49   Jobs yeah I was going to ask that as [TS]

00:39:50   many as I possibly could I mean why do [TS]

00:39:54   you think that the [TS]

00:39:55   again I think you quoted it 40 I think I [TS]

00:39:57   remember reading 40 interviews or [TS]

00:40:00   something along those lines now [TS]

00:40:03   considering that do you think that the [TS]

00:40:06   interviews were limited uh by Steve Jobs [TS]

00:40:12   or do you think that that Isaacson [TS]

00:40:14   simply felt that he had enough or or or [TS]

00:40:17   why why were there as many as forty or [TS]

00:40:20   the flipside why were there only 40 well [TS]

00:40:22   I have to think that the major limiting [TS]

00:40:25   factor was Steve Jobs his schedule is [TS]

00:40:29   like how much you know he's sick he's [TS]

00:40:31   got two companies to run it's gonna be [TS]

00:40:34   hard to get on his schedule at all [TS]

00:40:35   uh but on the flip side of that it [TS]

00:40:38   wasn't like he had three months to do [TS]

00:40:40   this and had to jam all the interview [TS]

00:40:41   had two years he seems like he even when [TS]

00:40:43   he wasn't like interviewing him in terms [TS]

00:40:44   like one-on-one he seems like he spent a [TS]

00:40:46   lot of time with them like he was with [TS]

00:40:47   them he was hanging out right is you [TS]

00:40:49   know this is my bar for he's just going [TS]

00:40:50   to come with me I'm not sitting down and [TS]

00:40:52   talking to him in a Q&A session but he's [TS]

00:40:54   they're seeing stuff happen right uh so [TS]

00:40:56   I think you know the number of [TS]

00:40:58   interviews it's seen I'll bet that's as [TS]

00:41:00   many as they could get he get on his [TS]

00:41:02   schedule and and you know I don't know [TS]

00:41:04   if he was doing this as a full-time job [TS]

00:41:05   Isaacson was doing his full-time job so [TS]

00:41:06   maybe he had other things to do too uh [TS]

00:41:09   you know I bet when Robert kara was [TS]

00:41:13   riding the power broker I don't know if [TS]

00:41:14   he was doing other things too I don't [TS]

00:41:15   know how many years it took but like you [TS]

00:41:16   know you tried to get as many interviews [TS]

00:41:18   as you possibly can if you can't get him [TS]

00:41:19   with the guy you talk with the other [TS]

00:41:20   people so I don't I don't you know what [TS]

00:41:24   I'm really contrasting the book with [TS]

00:41:26   it's not not saying that he didn't do [TS]

00:41:27   enough interviews or just that like I [TS]

00:41:30   guess he he squandered his time in those [TS]

00:41:32   interviews because it or overestimated I [TS]

00:41:35   don't know it seems like he with 40 [TS]

00:41:38   interviews worth of material he came up [TS]

00:41:40   with a book that was such a pale shadow [TS]

00:41:41   of a thing that only had five interviews [TS]

00:41:43   with the subject an adversarial chub [TS]

00:41:45   ejected that what what the power broker [TS]

00:41:47   kind of shows is that you can make a [TS]

00:41:49   great biography with minimal access to [TS]

00:41:51   the guy but having some access to the [TS]

00:41:52   guy is better than none at all and the [TS]

00:41:54   reason I had even higher standards to [TS]

00:41:55   the jobs bio is because I think jobs [TS]

00:41:57   isn't more important figure in history [TS]

00:41:58   than Robert Moses and you had unlimited [TS]

00:42:01   access to it so it should have been just [TS]

00:42:03   been a bonanza right because you had [TS]

00:42:05   unlimited access to the other non [TS]

00:42:08   subject people as friends also [TS]

00:42:09   workers you know the people most of them [TS]

00:42:11   are still alive yeah and they're not [TS]

00:42:12   stopping you from talking to them you [TS]

00:42:13   know we do the legwork and get them and [TS]

00:42:16   on top of that you have basically [TS]

00:42:18   unlimited access to jobs limited only by [TS]

00:42:20   your schedules together it's not like [TS]

00:42:22   he's refusing to talk to you and stuff [TS]

00:42:23   like that [TS]

00:42:26   so yeah I don't think it was a count [TS]

00:42:28   thing so on to the unto the next section [TS]

00:42:30   in my tale on that now people are [TS]

00:42:32   thinking oh I want here part two where [TS]

00:42:33   you just complain about the books more [TS]

00:42:34   maybe I kind of just did that a little [TS]

00:42:36   bit but mostly when I read off those [TS]

00:42:38   headings this I'm gonna be talking about [TS]

00:42:39   the content of the book finally you know [TS]

00:42:41   those headings that I read last week [TS]

00:42:42   we're about things that were in the book [TS]

00:42:44   so this is going to be more talking [TS]

00:42:46   hopefully more talking about jobs [TS]

00:42:47   himself and less talking about the [TS]

00:42:49   author and the whole process of writing [TS]

00:42:51   because there was new information in [TS]

00:42:52   this book as I said he was the only guy [TS]

00:42:54   with access he got stuff that people [TS]

00:42:56   didn't get because he's going when the [TS]

00:42:57   jobs talk to the first section is a jobs [TS]

00:43:03   the TV watcher this is something a lot [TS]

00:43:06   of people wondered about like with the [TS]

00:43:08   whole Apple TV thing and it's a hobby [TS]

00:43:10   some people said well the reason Apple [TS]

00:43:12   TVs think this big Steve Jobs doesn't [TS]

00:43:13   watch TV because if you watch TV he [TS]

00:43:15   wouldn't be able to tolerate this cruddy [TS]

00:43:17   thing other people said the Apple TV [TS]

00:43:19   exists because Steve Jobs must watch TV [TS]

00:43:20   because he's annoyed by actual regular [TS]

00:43:22   TV and you want something simpler and as [TS]

00:43:24   far as he's concerned anything is better [TS]

00:43:25   than that horrible you know existing TV [TS]

00:43:28   system so there was stories in the book [TS]

00:43:30   about that one was talking about when he [TS]

00:43:32   was working at Apple it picks our full [TS]

00:43:34   time and he was just kind of burning the [TS]

00:43:35   candle at both ends and exhausting [TS]

00:43:36   himself that he was said like when he [TS]

00:43:38   came home from when he finally got home [TS]

00:43:39   from work after working these two you [TS]

00:43:42   know stressful jobs and commuting and [TS]

00:43:43   everything all I could do was was plop [TS]

00:43:46   down and watch a half an hour of TV and [TS]

00:43:47   vegetate when he got home yeah he [TS]

00:43:48   couldn't even talk yeah which is like [TS]

00:43:50   you know you think all Steve Jobs he [TS]

00:43:52   only does things that are like an [TS]

00:43:54   enriching artful and he would never you [TS]

00:43:55   know you would never have a television [TS]

00:43:56   in his house and now he's just like us [TS]

00:43:58   he you come home you tired you can't [TS]

00:44:01   think you just you just want to plop [TS]

00:44:02   down from TV and vegetate who knows what [TS]

00:44:04   he's watching maybe watching Jersey [TS]

00:44:05   Shore for all we know like people are [TS]

00:44:07   people right right but this again the [TS]

00:44:09   anti deification of jobs one of the [TS]

00:44:11   things that if people had never read [TS]

00:44:13   another book about Steve Jobs you might [TS]

00:44:15   have been shocked by all of the the [TS]

00:44:17   human qualities of them but most of the [TS]

00:44:19   books of Steve Jobs get into that like [TS]

00:44:20   you know well you might love Steve Jobs [TS]

00:44:22   if he's really a jerk [TS]

00:44:23   that's the big theme but this one also [TS]

00:44:24   got into like you know he's not a super [TS]

00:44:27   being he's just like us right [TS]

00:44:30   and during recuperation from one of his [TS]

00:44:32   procedures or surgeries or something [TS]

00:44:34   he said he signed up for Comcast cable [TS]

00:44:37   and then you know in typical this is a [TS]

00:44:39   typical Steve Jobs fashion he called up [TS]

00:44:41   the person who ran Comcast and they got [TS]

00:44:44   Brian Roberts and the guy said I thought [TS]

00:44:46   he was calling to say something nice [TS]

00:44:47   about it Roberts recalled instead he [TS]

00:44:49   told me it sucks so that's what you can [TS]

00:44:51   imagine Steve Jobs doing he signs up for [TS]

00:44:53   Comcast gets a little hooked up sits [TS]

00:44:54   down in front of it starts to watch it [TS]

00:44:55   and anybody's trying to use that guide [TS]

00:44:56   or something or whatever is gonna be [TS]

00:44:57   like this is horrible [TS]

00:44:59   so this this leads credence to the idea [TS]

00:45:00   that Steve Steve Jobs I understand that [TS]

00:45:04   a personal level how horrible television [TS]

00:45:06   is even if he's not like an obsessive TV [TS]

00:45:08   watcher you know he he knows that it [TS]

00:45:11   stinks and he does watch television and [TS]

00:45:13   I guess the illness and stuff like that [TS]

00:45:14   made him watch even more of it so I [TS]

00:45:15   thought that was a new piece of [TS]

00:45:17   information so people can finally stop [TS]

00:45:18   speculating about the idea that Apple TV [TS]

00:45:21   stinks because Steve Jobs doesn't watch [TS]

00:45:23   TV or thinks TV is stupid or has no idea [TS]

00:45:25   about TV obviously not true job does [TS]

00:45:29   success they had a lot of good quotes [TS]

00:45:32   from Ivan here and I wish they had [TS]

00:45:35   talked more not just i but to his entire [TS]

00:45:36   team and all the people involved in it [TS]

00:45:38   because it is a good example of what [TS]

00:45:41   when I wrote that uh I forget I think it [TS]

00:45:43   was after he died when I wrote yeah it [TS]

00:45:45   was when I wrote my my personal [TS]

00:45:46   remembrance of Steve Jobs the the big [TS]

00:45:49   takeaway I I was pulling from his life [TS]

00:45:52   was the idea that all the bad things [TS]

00:45:55   that happen when large groups of people [TS]

00:45:56   get together aren't inevitable and so if [TS]

00:46:01   you in big companies is a particular [TS]

00:46:03   example but any large group people were [TS]

00:46:04   like you know in the Dilbert kind of [TS]

00:46:06   atmosphere if anyone has worked for a [TS]

00:46:07   big corporation we all know the things [TS]

00:46:09   that happen in big corporations and how [TS]

00:46:10   just poisonous they are to doing the [TS]

00:46:14   right things success to losing sight of [TS]

00:46:17   what's important and that that I think [TS]

00:46:20   is the is going to be the most important [TS]

00:46:22   lasting contribution of Steve Jobs to [TS]

00:46:25   the world of human endeavor even beyond [TS]

00:46:28   the particulars of technology in stuff [TS]

00:46:30   like that is that he proved that you can [TS]

00:46:33   be a gigantic company and not be idiotic [TS]

00:46:36   not be like Dilbert [TS]

00:46:37   you know there was lots of people [TS]

00:46:38   theories like well that's great when [TS]

00:46:39   you're a startup on you're a real big [TS]

00:46:41   serious company you can't make decisions [TS]

00:46:42   like actually you can actually it works [TS]

00:46:45   really well and the reason he was able [TS]

00:46:48   to do that but because he was in a [TS]

00:46:49   unique position because he had a huge [TS]

00:46:51   amount of power huge loyalty from his [TS]

00:46:53   employees and the board all these other [TS]

00:46:55   reasons but like buddy you know it was a [TS]

00:46:57   perhaps a not a UNIX and of course he [TS]

00:47:00   was you know brilliant and right a lot [TS]

00:47:03   of the time stuff like that but it just [TS]

00:47:04   it just shows that you can you know you [TS]

00:47:06   can do it and so one of the examples [TS]

00:47:08   that I've gave was before jobs came back [TS]

00:47:11   all the rest of Apple wanted from the [TS]

00:47:14   design group was the engineers would [TS]

00:47:17   make the computer and then they would [TS]

00:47:18   hand it off to design guys and say okay [TS]

00:47:19   put something nice around that and make [TS]

00:47:21   it you know then the engineers would [TS]

00:47:22   make a cheap thing and and you know and [TS]

00:47:25   then we said just put something put the [TS]

00:47:27   case on that or something like and [TS]

00:47:28   that's not what a designer wants to hear [TS]

00:47:30   he doesn't want to be given a blob and [TS]

00:47:32   told to put something around it make it [TS]

00:47:34   look nice that's like a Gruber's old SAR [TS]

00:47:37   Ronco spray-on usability [TS]

00:47:39   that's like Ronco spray-on design but [TS]

00:47:41   we've already designed the computer but [TS]

00:47:42   here you go just make it look nice or [TS]

00:47:43   something and don't make it too [TS]

00:47:43   expensive all right and it I was about [TS]

00:47:48   to quit because of this because who [TS]

00:47:49   wants to be in a company like this is [TS]

00:47:51   why companies into that operate like [TS]

00:47:53   regular companies have trouble [TS]

00:47:54   attracting great talent and great [TS]

00:47:55   designers you know well you can imagine [TS]

00:47:58   if you work for like Samsung or Dell or [TS]

00:48:00   something you're a designer and you just [TS]

00:48:01   really wanted to you want to be the [TS]

00:48:02   Johnny I've Dale you can't because the [TS]

00:48:04   people of Dell don't value you as much [TS]

00:48:06   as Steve Jobs understood and valued I've [TS]

00:48:07   so I was ready to quit and when Jobs [TS]

00:48:09   took over he gave I have a pep talk and [TS]

00:48:11   you know said look at this that's not [TS]

00:48:13   the way it's gonna work from now on [TS]

00:48:14   you know I'm here now that's not the way [TS]

00:48:17   we're on the show [TS]

00:48:18   trust me to stick around because you and [TS]

00:48:20   I will work together we'll make we'll [TS]

00:48:21   make great things [TS]

00:48:22   ah another example that that I have gave [TS]

00:48:26   was that he wanted to uh I think it was [TS]

00:48:29   I'm asking when to put a handle on it [TS]

00:48:30   and apparently putting handles are [TS]

00:48:32   expensive as multiple pieces and a big [TS]

00:48:34   recessed thing and has to be strong [TS]

00:48:35   enough for you to grip and all this [TS]

00:48:36   stuff uh and he's saying that you know [TS]

00:48:41   you would expect him to say like and [TS]

00:48:43   that's what's special about Apple [TS]

00:48:44   because you know other companies [TS]

00:48:45   wouldn't have allowed me to make this [TS]

00:48:47   expensive feature that seems like a [TS]

00:48:48   frill or whatever then I what he said [TS]

00:48:50   instead was [TS]

00:48:51   that you know when he was arguing for [TS]

00:48:52   the handle and why why you should get it [TS]

00:48:54   because the engineering would always be [TS]

00:48:55   pushing back against and then jobs would [TS]

00:48:56   come and intercede and say no we got to [TS]

00:48:58   do it right [TS]

00:48:58   he said I've says at the old Apple I [TS]

00:49:01   would have lost that argument not at [TS]

00:49:02   another company but literally at the old [TS]

00:49:03   Apple before Jobs came back even at [TS]

00:49:06   Apple I would have lost the argument for [TS]

00:49:07   this expensive seemingly needless handle [TS]

00:49:09   but with jobs there he said no that's [TS]

00:49:12   cool I like the handle I get it I [TS]

00:49:13   understand why a designer would want [TS]

00:49:15   that and we're keeping it and I don't [TS]

00:49:16   care that it costs more money again the [TS]

00:49:19   iMac case again is saying that it cost [TS]

00:49:21   $60 to make a case for each iMac which [TS]

00:49:23   is three times as much as a regular [TS]

00:49:24   computer case and I think this is Isaac [TS]

00:49:28   in saying this are paraphrasing [TS]

00:49:29   something that I've said that other [TS]

00:49:30   companies would have demanded [TS]

00:49:31   presentations and studies to show [TS]

00:49:33   whether like we're gonna make our money [TS]

00:49:34   back on this you know if we spend 60 [TS]

00:49:37   bucks on a translucent case are we gonna [TS]

00:49:38   sell enough more units to make up for [TS]

00:49:40   the cost of tooling and everything I'm [TS]

00:49:41   like no there's no profit and loss study [TS]

00:49:44   right there's no you know return on [TS]

00:49:46   investment job says it looks cool we're [TS]

00:49:48   sticking to it that's what a small [TS]

00:49:49   company would do and big companies just [TS]

00:49:51   you know all you gotta have the [TS]

00:49:52   PowerPoint presentation so I'll bring in [TS]

00:49:53   the finance guys to get a look at this [TS]

00:49:54   that disease is why big companies suck [TS]

00:49:56   and you know and it's just it's very [TS]

00:49:59   rare to get anyone so in charge of such [TS]

00:50:03   a big company that they can make those [TS]

00:50:05   decisions without this chair holders [TS]

00:50:06   yelling without like the board you know [TS]

00:50:08   there's always people second-guessing so [TS]

00:50:09   you gotta act like the risk-averse then [TS]

00:50:11   you know you gotta act like a big [TS]

00:50:12   company don't do that [TS]

00:50:13   but at Apple you know that's not how [TS]

00:50:16   things work when Jobs came back and Tim [TS]

00:50:17   Cook point out that and he said this in [TS]

00:50:19   earning calls as well and later as this [TS]

00:50:20   might be more came from in the book that [TS]

00:50:23   they don't have a profit and loss for [TS]

00:50:26   divisions like the the division you know [TS]

00:50:28   for design and engineering and you know [TS]

00:50:31   manufacturing all don't have their own [TS]

00:50:33   profit and loss statements and they're [TS]

00:50:34   not like they're not like pitted against [TS]

00:50:35   each other whereas they well I think [TS]

00:50:37   this case would be great in this [TS]

00:50:38   computer but if you put this on there my [TS]

00:50:40   profit and loss ratio for the [TS]

00:50:41   manufacturing branch of the company is [TS]

00:50:43   going to be horrible this year because [TS]

00:50:44   there's no way we can sustain having to [TS]

00:50:46   make all that new tooling and you know [TS]

00:50:48   and Tim Cook says we don't have [TS]

00:50:50   divisions we have one profit and loss [TS]

00:50:51   for the whole company so they're not [TS]

00:50:53   they're not worried about like this [TS]

00:50:54   little Empire over here in software and [TS]

00:50:56   this little piece over here and like [TS]

00:50:57   they're all pitted against each other to [TS]

00:50:59   make their bottom lines look good to say [TS]

00:51:00   well the manufacturing doofuses did [TS]

00:51:03   poorly this year but the engineering [TS]

00:51:04   guys who make hardware did great and and [TS]

00:51:06   the software guys you know it's one [TS]

00:51:08   profit and loss for the whole company if [TS]

00:51:10   this will make a better product let's [TS]

00:51:12   all work together to make a better [TS]

00:51:13   product and very few big companies do [TS]

00:51:15   that they you know that managers and [TS]

00:51:20   middle managers build little empires [TS]

00:51:21   within the company there to say like [TS]

00:51:22   well my division is doing great and that [TS]

00:51:24   goes towards my bonus in my raise and [TS]

00:51:26   and that kind of stuff is poison to you [TS]

00:51:29   know if you're losing sight of what you [TS]

00:51:30   supposed to be doing useful to making it [TS]

00:51:31   great whatever you're supposed to make a [TS]

00:51:33   great door knob a great knife a great [TS]

00:51:35   computer that's the goal it's not the [TS]

00:51:37   goal is not to make sure your division [TS]

00:51:39   of the knife manufacturing opposition [TS]

00:51:41   that acquires steel did great this year [TS]

00:51:43   because you found a way to get really [TS]

00:51:44   cheap steel it's only a little bit less [TS]

00:51:45   the worse than the old steel you were [TS]

00:51:47   getting but boy look at the bottom line [TS]

00:51:48   for your division now you're just doing [TS]

00:51:49   gangbusters and you get a raise and you [TS]

00:51:51   go up to VP right that's not that's the [TS]

00:51:53   way business works that's not how it [TS]

00:51:55   should work and the success of Apple [TS]

00:51:58   it's so great that Apple succeeded in [TS]

00:51:59   this because the first version of Apple [TS]

00:52:01   was the company that made the Macintosh [TS]

00:52:03   which was so ridiculously better than [TS]

00:52:06   ms-dos to anyone with half a brain and [TS]

00:52:09   yet it lost in the market and that was [TS]

00:52:11   depressing it was like you can make this [TS]

00:52:13   great thing that just is just obviously [TS]

00:52:15   so much better but for reasons unrelated [TS]

00:52:17   to the quality of the product it's going [TS]

00:52:20   to fail and it's like well maybe that's [TS]

00:52:21   maybe you can't do that maybe that type [TS]

00:52:23   of thing where when you're a big company [TS]

00:52:24   you do make a great product maybe that [TS]

00:52:26   doesn't work well I'm just so glad the [TS]

00:52:28   jobs - error came along to disprove that [TS]

00:52:30   theory to say no actually making great [TS]

00:52:32   products and not doing all that big [TS]

00:52:34   company BS Canon does lead to success [TS]

00:52:38   crazy success biggest company in the [TS]

00:52:40   entire United States success that kind [TS]

00:52:41   of thing oh it's in arguable you can't [TS]

00:52:43   sale that's not you that doesn't work [TS]

00:52:44   you can't do that unless you're a [TS]

00:52:45   start-up Steve Jobs is ethos the next [TS]

00:52:51   section ethos yeah I'm going to do a [TS]

00:52:57   sponsor while you prepare for this sure [TS]

00:52:59   go for it second sponsor longtime [TS]

00:53:03   sponsor Shopify calm the Internet's most [TS]

00:53:05   elegant customizable and scalable hosted [TS]

00:53:08   ecommerce platform I use these guys on [TS]

00:53:10   myself anytime that I sell 5x5 t-shirts [TS]

00:53:14   by the way we're coming up with some but [TS]

00:53:15   I use I do everything with them why [TS]

00:53:18   I know how to do HTML CSS and build [TS]

00:53:20   websites I build 5x5 I know how to do [TS]

00:53:22   been doing this for years why because it [TS]

00:53:24   they make it easier they make it faster [TS]

00:53:27   because my time I would rather be [TS]

00:53:29   spending my time on the shows with you [TS]

00:53:30   then like trying to make e-commerce work [TS]

00:53:32   because if that that's hard stuff so [TS]

00:53:35   what do you get with Shopify you get [TS]

00:53:36   your own online store you can accept [TS]

00:53:37   credit cards you can use your own domain [TS]

00:53:39   if you want or there's you customize [TS]

00:53:41   your store as much as you want or as [TS]

00:53:42   little as you want they've got like 100 [TS]

00:53:44   more than 100 professionally designed [TS]

00:53:45   templates or you just do your own [TS]

00:53:48   doesn't matter there's nothing to [TS]

00:53:49   download there's something to maintain [TS]

00:53:50   there's nothing to worry about and it's [TS]

00:53:53   a hundred percent PCI DSS compliant 100 [TS]

00:53:57   so if you don't even know what that [TS]

00:53:58   means it's legal stuff that you don't [TS]

00:54:00   want to deal with on your own you can [TS]

00:54:02   totally trust them with your business [TS]

00:54:03   they're fully secure they have that they [TS]

00:54:05   have sites that do millions of dollars [TS]

00:54:07   per month in sales so trust me yours [TS]

00:54:09   yours will be just fine here and up for [TS]

00:54:12   a limited time you can get three months [TS]

00:54:13   free normally they give you a month free [TS]

00:54:15   to try it out you use coupon code five [TS]

00:54:17   by five you get three months free and [TS]

00:54:19   try these guys out I'm telling you it [TS]

00:54:21   doesn't matter what you want to sell [TS]

00:54:23   physical stuff electronic stuff you can [TS]

00:54:25   do it at Shopify com check them out love [TS]

00:54:29   those guys [TS]

00:54:33   alright the ethos thing it was in [TS]

00:54:35   reference to to Android and so as zooms [TS]

00:54:41   s I'm like you know Android doing better [TS]

00:54:43   this is when Android market share with [TS]

00:54:45   your growing up or whatever and the the [TS]

00:54:47   upshot seems to be from jobs that even [TS]

00:54:48   if Google's approach to selling Android [TS]

00:54:50   to like giving away free to everybody [TS]

00:54:51   you know ends up winning in the [TS]

00:54:54   marketing place which by which I think [TS]

00:54:56   he means like selling more copies than [TS]

00:54:57   iOS devices or whatever jobs founded [TS]

00:55:00   repellent this is a quote from Jobs [TS]

00:55:01   I like being responsible for the whole [TS]

00:55:03   user experience we we do it not to make [TS]

00:55:05   money we do it because we want to make [TS]

00:55:07   great products not crap like Android so [TS]

00:55:09   this is this is jobs and pretty [TS]

00:55:12   unequivocally saying it's better to lose [TS]

00:55:16   than to suck can you imagine a CEO of [TS]

00:55:18   any other company in the entire universe [TS]

00:55:20   saying that you never say that you're [TS]

00:55:22   going to say your shareholders to your [TS]

00:55:23   board [TS]

00:55:24   well you're right this isn't even even [TS]

00:55:27   if a hundred percent right and that [TS]

00:55:28   other strategy even other company can [TS]

00:55:30   crush us in the market and get more mark [TS]

00:55:31   chair I'd still rather have a better [TS]

00:55:33   product than then suck ins have good [TS]

00:55:35   market chair that's just that's like [TS]

00:55:38   anti-capitalist Antica you know it seems [TS]

00:55:41   like it's just the opposite of [TS]

00:55:42   everything having to do with business I [TS]

00:55:44   think in reality it is you know it's the [TS]

00:55:46   it's one of the best stress you can [TS]

00:55:48   possibly ever have because the other [TS]

00:55:50   strategy leads you to eventually make [TS]

00:55:52   crap and crap eventually comes back to [TS]

00:55:53   bite you you know so the Android iOS [TS]

00:55:56   thing has not worked out but Jobs is [TS]

00:55:58   clearly coming down on the side is [TS]

00:56:00   better to lose than to suck which just [TS]

00:56:02   you know it crazy for a CEO to say that [TS]

00:56:06   especially see how the biggest company [TS]

00:56:08   in the world and I think that's you know [TS]

00:56:09   the reason he's the CEO that was the CEO [TS]

00:56:11   the biggest company in the world that [TS]

00:56:12   particular attitude SML thing when he [TS]

00:56:15   was talking about the new Apple [TS]

00:56:16   headquarters they were planning the big [TS]

00:56:17   giant round glass spaceship look at the [TS]

00:56:20   motive there he had a true mothership [TS]

00:56:22   yeah the UFO and you know obviously Jobs [TS]

00:56:26   wasn't heavily designed in the heavily [TS]

00:56:29   involved in the design of that and at [TS]

00:56:31   one point the architects wanted to allow [TS]

00:56:33   people to open and close the windows get [TS]

00:56:34   glass everywhere whatever it and it jobs [TS]

00:56:36   didn't like the idea so that would just [TS]

00:56:38   allow people to screw things up and [TS]

00:56:39   that's that's the sound bite from that [TS]

00:56:42   that's that's classic jobs attitude and [TS]

00:56:45   depending on how you feel about job [TS]

00:56:47   because I you know this is why Jobs is [TS]

00:56:48   big jerk he's such a control freak you [TS]

00:56:50   didn't let people open windows what if [TS]

00:56:51   somebody's really hot right and what if [TS]

00:56:53   they need to open a window with Steve [TS]

00:56:54   Jobs did you know you got to suffer and [TS]

00:56:55   sweat because I don't want the windows [TS]

00:56:57   open because I like them to be closed [TS]

00:56:58   and that's the the anti the pro side of [TS]

00:57:01   it would be uh have you ever been in an [TS]

00:57:04   office or like a building where it does [TS]

00:57:06   have windows that open and closed sure [TS]

00:57:08   and someone somewhere decides that [TS]

00:57:10   they're too hot so they open the window [TS]

00:57:11   but that makes a bunch of other people [TS]

00:57:12   freezing or triggers the thermostat the [TS]

00:57:13   blast the heat on someone else you know [TS]

00:57:15   that's I think what Jobs meant by this [TS]

00:57:17   will allow people to screw things up it [TS]

00:57:19   will allow people to make local [TS]

00:57:21   decisions that have a global detrimental [TS]

00:57:23   effect so he'd rather say seal the thing [TS]

00:57:26   up and you design the thing so everybody [TS]

00:57:28   is comfortable that's your goal to make [TS]

00:57:29   the great thing if you allow stuff to be [TS]

00:57:30   open and closed there's too many [TS]

00:57:31   variables and you're going to get [TS]

00:57:32   individual people making decisions that [TS]

00:57:35   hurt other people it's just constant [TS]

00:57:37   fight to turn the thermostat up turn it [TS]

00:57:38   down open the window close the window [TS]

00:57:40   different seasons different times a day [TS]

00:57:42   you can kind of tell what side I come [TS]

00:57:44   down on this like you either design the [TS]

00:57:47   building have the windows open and close [TS]

00:57:49   or you design it not to be but don't [TS]

00:57:51   kind of say well well design the [TS]

00:57:52   building so we'll be comfortable with [TS]

00:57:54   everything sealed up but people can open [TS]

00:57:55   windows if they want that sounds like an [TS]

00:57:57   Android approach right Oh we'll do it [TS]

00:57:59   this way but also you can have that the [TS]

00:58:00   other thing too we just will give them [TS]

00:58:01   the option like it's up to them it's up [TS]

00:58:03   to them it's up to the people who live [TS]

00:58:05   in the building to design their own [TS]

00:58:06   building experience whereas Jobs is more [TS]

00:58:08   like you know like the Paul Rand thing [TS]

00:58:10   with the next logo I will solve your [TS]

00:58:11   problem though you don't have to design [TS]

00:58:13   your living experience you know I'm [TS]

00:58:14   going to come to you with a building [TS]

00:58:16   it's good to live in and I will succeed [TS]

00:58:17   or fail based on how well I do that I'm [TS]

00:58:19   not going to make you a building with [TS]

00:58:20   every possible option tell you to design [TS]

00:58:22   it as you live in it because that's not [TS]

00:58:23   the way jobs are Apple worked emotional [TS]

00:58:27   jobs the next section again if you read [TS]

00:58:30   any other book about jobs it's these are [TS]

00:58:32   not revelations that he was very [TS]

00:58:34   emotional but I just ensure love this [TS]

00:58:36   topic so he came you know anytime he got [TS]

00:58:38   a chance to tell a story about Steve [TS]

00:58:39   Jobs crying or some other thing you know [TS]

00:58:41   he he went for that one I and I think [TS]

00:58:45   that is a change from the previous books [TS]

00:58:46   the previous books would talk about the [TS]

00:58:47   stuff but they wouldn't hammer on it as [TS]

00:58:49   much because there were a little bit [TS]

00:58:51   more reverential like Steven leaving [TS]

00:58:53   other books of people who like devoted [TS]

00:58:55   Apple fans would shy away from really [TS]

00:58:57   focusing on when Jobs was a jerk for [TS]

00:59:02   reasons not related to making people do [TS]

00:59:04   better things like he would just mean he [TS]

00:59:05   was just punitive or he cried like they [TS]

00:59:07   wouldn't they wouldn't focus on that [TS]

00:59:08   because it seemed like well I don't want [TS]

00:59:09   Steve Jobs not to like me because I'm a [TS]

00:59:10   big fan go so I Justin was not that into [TS]

00:59:12   Steve Jobs again we talked about that [TS]

00:59:14   earlier so he had no problem telling [TS]

00:59:16   them yeah the guy cries all the time [TS]

00:59:17   stuff and he's a big baby and he's a [TS]

00:59:18   jerk sometimes for no reason uh the [TS]

00:59:22   thing I focused on was like when when he [TS]

00:59:24   introduced the iPad and then he was [TS]

00:59:25   getting all his emails for people but [TS]

00:59:27   complaining is no USB cord and stuff [TS]

00:59:28   like that again we you know remember [TS]

00:59:31   when they came out and you know I bet [TS]

00:59:32   Gruber had something about these people [TS]

00:59:33   don't get you shouldn't have you know [TS]

00:59:34   usb on it stupid blah blah and you just [TS]

00:59:37   assume that if it can reduce isms can [TS]

00:59:42   roll off the back of all the Apple fans [TS]

00:59:44   who like you know I think the iPad is [TS]

00:59:46   great and people would complain yeah you [TS]

00:59:47   think the iPad so great but doesn't have [TS]

00:59:49   USB it's so dumb and you know you would [TS]

00:59:50   defend you become the defender of Apple [TS]

00:59:52   you say well I think it's better without [TS]

00:59:53   USB [TS]

00:59:54   you can't a big flame alright but you [TS]

00:59:56   would assume that these things would [TS]

00:59:58   just roll off the back of steve job [TS]

00:59:59   because like you're just [TS]

00:59:59   because like you're just [TS]

01:00:00   you know guy having to flame or in some [TS]

01:00:02   form or whatever or you're just blogging [TS]

01:00:04   about it's no big you know your fight [TS]

01:00:06   was gonna be like but Steve Jobs doesn't [TS]

01:00:07   care about this stuff but Steve Jobs was [TS]

01:00:09   there reading his emails about people [TS]

01:00:11   complaining there's no USB cord and it's [TS]

01:00:13   getting depressed he's getting sad he [TS]

01:00:15   says they're getting bummed out right [TS]

01:00:17   it's just it's it's a very human moment [TS]

01:00:20   and and it's missed it's like why are [TS]

01:00:24   you doing this up to yourself like you [TS]

01:00:26   know he just he would have think that [TS]

01:00:28   over the years you would have built up a [TS]

01:00:29   thick skin about like how does this help [TS]

01:00:30   him be a better person does it does it [TS]

01:00:32   help him Brazil the next time he's going [TS]

01:00:33   to play USB port no it's not you know [TS]

01:00:35   he's not taking his input and factoring [TS]

01:00:37   it into his future design decisions but [TS]

01:00:39   he still feels sad about it it you know [TS]

01:00:41   a very sensitive guy can you imagine [TS]

01:00:43   like introducing the iPad and then going [TS]

01:00:45   home and that that night being depressed [TS]

01:00:46   wouldn't you'd be like if you introduced [TS]

01:00:48   the IP but I who I'm king of the world [TS]

01:00:49   you know I just put out the iPad eat it [TS]

01:00:53   sucked like it was awesome product like [TS]

01:00:54   it sold well everything was good about [TS]

01:00:56   it [TS]

01:00:56   he all he can do is focus on that people [TS]

01:00:58   yelling at him in emails like don't read [TS]

01:01:00   your email then if you're gonna be sad [TS]

01:01:01   about it uh and the other moment you [TS]

01:01:05   read that that thoughts on flash thing [TS]

01:01:06   again you're like all that he didn't [TS]

01:01:07   write that the pr road you know but you [TS]

01:01:09   know it's like well he's a control freak [TS]

01:01:10   scribe to wrote himself but he's writing [TS]

01:01:12   it and he's like showing it to his [TS]

01:01:13   friends and he's like uh you know the [TS]

01:01:15   other people on the board is like does [TS]

01:01:16   this sound like i'm just trying to stick [TS]

01:01:18   it to adobe like he's bouncing off his [TS]

01:01:19   friends like i don't you know he's a [TS]

01:01:20   he's self-aware no I don't want to sound [TS]

01:01:23   like it I could you know I'm trying to [TS]

01:01:25   make a point here I don't want to sound [TS]

01:01:26   like I'm just being mean to a doe [TS]

01:01:28   because I'm angry at them and he's you [TS]

01:01:29   know he's he's sensitive about that and [TS]

01:01:32   he's talking to his friends like the [TS]

01:01:33   same way you'd be trying to do a blog [TS]

01:01:35   post and you don't want to like offend [TS]

01:01:37   somebody but you're trying to write do I [TS]

01:01:38   did I sound do I sound to mean or [TS]

01:01:40   definitely a jerk in this that's what [TS]

01:01:41   he's doing [TS]

01:01:42   yeah of course I think one of the big [TS]

01:01:44   problems is that the the relationships [TS]

01:01:46   that seem like Steve Jobs fostered in [TS]

01:01:48   his life with those people's like when [TS]

01:01:49   you talk to your board member about that [TS]

01:01:51   that's not really a even a board member [TS]

01:01:53   was certainly an employee or whatever [TS]

01:01:55   that's not kind of what is he going to [TS]

01:01:56   say [TS]

01:01:57   like yeah you do sound like a jerk I [TS]

01:01:58   mean again the book took said like Oh [TS]

01:02:00   Steve Jobs likes that he likes when you [TS]

01:02:01   push back on and maybe that's true but I [TS]

01:02:03   still think people feel intimidated by [TS]

01:02:04   him so it probably was difficult for him [TS]

01:02:06   to get honest because he's just so tough [TS]

01:02:08   and has that presented to get honest [TS]

01:02:10   feedback [TS]

01:02:11   right but the fact that he's seeking it [TS]

01:02:13   from his friends you know is is [TS]

01:02:17   interesting and really highlights the [TS]

01:02:19   the human aspects of Steve Jobs that [TS]

01:02:20   most other books talked about but didn't [TS]

01:02:23   dwell on and you could be left to wonder [TS]

01:02:25   whether you know how real they were jobs [TS]

01:02:30   in politics the section you wouldn't [TS]

01:02:32   expect to be much of in the book because [TS]

01:02:34   he's not like you don't see jobs out [TS]

01:02:36   there like campaigning for people and [TS]

01:02:38   you know he's not he's not an actively [TS]

01:02:39   political person most tech CEOs aren't [TS]

01:02:42   but you know a couple big big CEO so [TS]

01:02:44   companies do come down them inside of [TS]

01:02:45   one party or another but jobs true to [TS]

01:02:48   form is not not a party partisan at all [TS]

01:02:51   so the first encounters when he was [TS]

01:02:52   talking to Rupert Murdoch who is [TS]

01:02:54   apparently you know buddy-buddy with and [TS]

01:02:56   hangs out with visiting other two [TS]

01:02:57   captains of industry or that they but [TS]

01:02:59   they have a lot in common because you [TS]

01:03:00   know who else who do you have a lot in [TS]

01:03:02   common with him in your Steve Jobs I [TS]

01:03:03   guess we're from Murdoch right uh and so [TS]

01:03:07   he's hanging out with anybody tell when [TS]

01:03:08   he comes over to dinner he says there's [TS]

01:03:10   a quote you're blowing it with Fox News [TS]

01:03:12   you should get Roberto over dinner and [TS]

01:03:14   tell him that and rank the best thing is [TS]

01:03:16   like you can tell jobs has thought about [TS]

01:03:17   this like if you just put Rupert Murdoch [TS]

01:03:19   and run with a bunch of liberals they [TS]

01:03:20   like screaming them about how he's evil [TS]

01:03:22   and stuff like that what Steve Jobs says [TS]

01:03:24   this is a great example effect you know [TS]

01:03:26   it's not just he has insight and is like [TS]

01:03:30   narrowed down to like here's here's the [TS]

01:03:32   problem with Fox News and I thought this [TS]

01:03:33   was one of the best summaries of ever [TS]

01:03:35   seen a fox news doesn't get into [TS]

01:03:36   screaming hysteria liberal conservative [TS]

01:03:38   stuff like that this is the court from [TS]

01:03:41   jobs the axis today is not liberal and [TS]

01:03:43   conservative the axe attacks is [TS]

01:03:45   constructive destructive and you've cast [TS]

01:03:47   your lot with the destructive people [TS]

01:03:48   Fox's become an incredibly destructive [TS]

01:03:50   force in our society so he sidesteps the [TS]

01:03:52   whole liberal conservative positive [TS]

01:03:54   thing it's like are you are you building [TS]

01:03:56   things up or are you tearing things down [TS]

01:03:57   like you know it this is the only quote [TS]

01:04:00   there doesn't go into a much more detail [TS]

01:04:01   but I thought there was a great summary [TS]

01:04:02   of what would you tell Rupert Murdoch to [TS]

01:04:05   get him to understand what you don't [TS]

01:04:07   like about Fox News if you tell them I [TS]

01:04:08   don't like it because I don't like [TS]

01:04:09   conservative opinions well former [TS]

01:04:10   glycans you're not going to convince [TS]

01:04:11   Rupert Murdoch cannot be a conservative [TS]

01:04:13   right that's a losing argument so Steve [TS]

01:04:15   Jobs just gets to the heart of it and [TS]

01:04:16   says it's about construct D structures [TS]

01:04:18   about you know building things up and [TS]

01:04:20   tearing things down I thought that was a [TS]

01:04:21   great and I don't know what Rivenbark [TS]

01:04:24   document [TS]

01:04:25   but at least someone's telling that [TS]

01:04:26   through peroxidase uh I'm meeting with a [TS]

01:04:29   bomb on the other side just Joe he's not [TS]

01:04:30   you know that partisan one side the [TS]

01:04:32   other he didn't want to meet with Obama [TS]

01:04:33   because he didn't want to be like token [TS]

01:04:35   CEO meeting likes I'm not gonna meet [TS]

01:04:36   with him he wants to come fly in and [TS]

01:04:37   talk to me - so he can say talk to a CEO [TS]

01:04:39   I'm paraphrasing this is not a direct [TS]

01:04:41   quote but that kind of sentiment was [TS]

01:04:43   like so what he's the president don't [TS]

01:04:45   want to be his like he's aware when [TS]

01:04:46   other people are trying to manipulate [TS]

01:04:48   him because I'm sure he does similar [TS]

01:04:49   things to be you know to get in good and [TS]

01:04:51   get on the covers of magazines and stuff [TS]

01:04:52   he didn't want you didn't want to be [TS]

01:04:53   manipulated even it was by the president [TS]

01:04:55   he'll turn down the meeting right and [TS]

01:04:58   when he did finally meet Obama uh [TS]

01:04:59   they got their acts together and his [TS]

01:05:01   friends persuade him to do it or [TS]

01:05:02   whatever wise you come in and say hey [TS]

01:05:04   I'm Steve Jobs but I don't know it's [TS]

01:05:05   quite this blunt but this is the quote [TS]

01:05:06   of the thing you're headed for a [TS]

01:05:07   one-term presidency right that's the way [TS]

01:05:10   I don't imagine they walk in the door [TS]

01:05:12   and and he's like hey and oh by the way [TS]

01:05:14   I mean I'm sure it was a quote from the [TS]

01:05:16   conversation right but like you know eat [TS]

01:05:19   I guess that's the advantage of being [TS]

01:05:21   Steve Jobs you know any problem till I [TS]

01:05:22   speaking truth to power in fact you [TS]

01:05:23   refused to meet with them it seems like [TS]

01:05:24   a very mini play when you get they're [TS]

01:05:26   gonna say you know any went into all the [TS]

01:05:27   reasons why you know because he was too [TS]

01:05:30   eager to please everybody and like oh [TS]

01:05:32   basically all the ways that you're not [TS]

01:05:34   like me is why you're gonna be one-term [TS]

01:05:35   presidency which may be true I think a [TS]

01:05:37   lot of liberals sometimes think that [TS]

01:05:38   like boy if only Obama had the character [TS]

01:05:41   nervous Steve Jobs I would be more happy [TS]

01:05:43   with him as the president right and then [TS]

01:05:45   he also said all bunch of business about [TS]

01:05:47   the administration needs to be our [TS]

01:05:49   business friendly this was a very [TS]

01:05:50   interesting thing which the author [TS]

01:05:51   didn't comment on at all and I would [TS]

01:05:53   have loved to have seen more exploration [TS]

01:05:55   and talking with his hippie friends [TS]

01:05:56   about this so he's got a whole bunch of [TS]

01:05:59   important people around a table I think [TS]

01:06:00   was Obama like the tech people like [TS]

01:06:02   Zuckerberg was there and a bunch of [TS]

01:06:04   other you know it's some big meeting of [TS]

01:06:07   business people with Obama right like [TS]

01:06:10   captains of industry of the tech sector [TS]

01:06:12   to talk about stuff and what happens in [TS]

01:06:14   that meeting one guy what was his name [TS]

01:06:16   chambers I forget who he was he was CEO [TS]

01:06:18   of some company just was like bending [TS]

01:06:20   Obama's ear about tax repatriation [TS]

01:06:23   holiday that allows the corporation's to [TS]

01:06:26   bring to avoid tax payments on overseas [TS]

01:06:28   profits if you bring them back to the US [TS]

01:06:29   and all in Zuckerberg and other people [TS]

01:06:32   were annoyed that like that this guy was [TS]

01:06:34   just like complaining to Obama about [TS]

01:06:36   this but you saying we should be talking [TS]

01:06:37   about what's important to the [TS]

01:06:39   what does this guy just talking about [TS]

01:06:40   stuff is good for him but when jobs talk [TS]

01:06:42   to me said the same thing so we need we [TS]

01:06:44   need uh to be more business-friendly [TS]

01:06:46   it's so easy to build a factory in China [TS]

01:06:47   it's hard to build it here and we can't [TS]

01:06:49   get enough workers even if we could [TS]

01:06:50   build it here it's just kind of funny [TS]

01:06:52   that like even jobs mr. hippy mister you [TS]

01:06:56   know living in on the commune picking [TS]

01:06:59   the beans or whatever he was doing total [TS]

01:07:01   counterculture guy running a company [TS]

01:07:04   changes you like being at that level of [TS]

01:07:06   Finance he's making arguments for you [TS]

01:07:09   know you need to be more business [TS]

01:07:10   friendly deregulation you make it make [TS]

01:07:12   it more like here like like it isn't [TS]

01:07:14   China make that make it more like that [TS]

01:07:15   here which is not a liberal hippie [TS]

01:07:18   conservative type thing and just kind of [TS]

01:07:20   you know it's I don't know I would have [TS]

01:07:22   asked jobs are you how do you resolve [TS]

01:07:24   that conflict you know are you aware [TS]

01:07:25   that these arguments you're making would [TS]

01:07:27   sound crazy to have 13-year old you that [TS]

01:07:28   you can make should be more like China [TS]

01:07:30   here and it took too hard to make a [TS]

01:07:31   factory we need more deregulation and [TS]

01:07:33   you are friendly to the business that's [TS]

01:07:36   not a liberal position because he is uh [TS]

01:07:38   the CEO of a you know multi-billion [TS]

01:07:41   dollar company and the other depressing [TS]

01:07:43   thing was when you get all these big [TS]

01:07:44   guys together and I get to talk to the [TS]

01:07:45   president they talk about exactly you [TS]

01:07:47   would think they would talk about like [TS]

01:07:48   in a Batman movie like you know we need [TS]

01:07:51   fewer taxes and fewer regulations [TS]

01:07:52   because industry must be it's just it's [TS]

01:07:54   kind of comically comically evil I bet [TS]

01:07:57   they don't even know they're they're [TS]

01:07:58   doing it obviously it's not evil if [TS]

01:08:00   you're a conservative but it's like they [TS]

01:08:02   have the president's ear and they just [TS]

01:08:03   want to talk about how why how you can [TS]

01:08:06   make it easier for my business they're [TS]

01:08:07   all incredibly rich they all don't need [TS]

01:08:09   any more money but all they can think [TS]

01:08:10   about is you you as the government [TS]

01:08:12   should make it easier for me as business [TS]

01:08:13   to make more money in my business uh [TS]

01:08:19   Reed Reed jobs luckiest kid ever in case [TS]

01:08:23   you were wondering if it's cool to be [TS]

01:08:25   Steve Jobs his kid answer it is I was [TS]

01:08:29   blown away by like he's going to this [TS]

01:08:31   big meeting what was he talking about [TS]

01:08:32   like I think it was the antenna gate [TS]

01:08:34   meeting or something so he flies back [TS]

01:08:35   from Hawaii he's like Reed why'd you [TS]

01:08:36   come with me is it you're saying that he [TS]

01:08:38   would learn more in this meeting than he [TS]

01:08:40   would in like a you know a year in [TS]

01:08:41   Business School imp rings Reed job you [TS]

01:08:43   just sit in on the meeting to talk about [TS]

01:08:45   this antenna gate thing with these you [TS]

01:08:46   know with my PR people with my ad guy [TS]

01:08:48   and all the people from Apple can you [TS]

01:08:49   imagine that as [TS]

01:08:50   Apple nerds like maybe if you're a [TS]

01:08:52   jobless kid you know it's not as [TS]

01:08:56   exciting I got dad to work but but if [TS]

01:08:59   you're just an apple nerd on the web the [TS]

01:09:01   idea of being able to tag along with [TS]

01:09:03   jobs just to hang out like it's just [TS]

01:09:04   it's crazy any other was when he got to [TS]

01:09:08   bring his freshman dorm mates the iPad [TS]

01:09:11   to launch yeah come with you I got my [TS]

01:09:13   dad's thing he's doing some product [TS]

01:09:14   whatever you get the like come in with [TS]

01:09:16   with him and just sit in the front row [TS]

01:09:17   and caught it's just yeah that's that's [TS]

01:09:20   a good deal and the other part was like [TS]

01:09:23   when it when they were showing they were [TS]

01:09:24   trying to figure out designs for the the [TS]

01:09:27   Apple spaceship HQ which the design for [TS]

01:09:30   it looks like a giant circle like a [TS]

01:09:31   cheerio basically with a big hole you [TS]

01:09:33   know homeless center with his courtyard [TS]

01:09:35   and stuff and one of the earlier [TS]

01:09:37   arrangements didn't look like that it [TS]

01:09:38   was a bunch of wavy lines and stuff and [TS]

01:09:40   Reid said that it looked like it [TS]

01:09:41   reminded him of male genitalia cuz [TS]

01:09:45   that's what you know a teenage kid if [TS]

01:09:46   you show something right of course it's [TS]

01:09:47   generous everything looks like that to [TS]

01:09:49   teenage boy I know and you know didn't [TS]

01:09:51   Steve Jobs I think even said that but [TS]

01:09:52   you know what they changed the design [TS]

01:09:54   because once you see it you can't unsee [TS]

01:09:55   it so here's this is like teenage boys [TS]

01:09:57   beavis and butt-head style sensibilities [TS]

01:09:59   that we all men have in some you know [TS]

01:10:01   degree buried down changing the course [TS]

01:10:03   of the apple HQ you know cuz he walked [TS]

01:10:06   through the room and said that I found [TS]

01:10:08   that charming jobs in the cloud [TS]

01:10:14   the a couple parts I talked about how [TS]

01:10:16   Jobs would love to like almost every day [TS]

01:10:19   like take a walk through Johnny Ives [TS]

01:10:20   design studio because he would just see [TS]

01:10:22   it's a quote from the book he'd get a [TS]

01:10:25   sense in a sweep of the whole company [TS]

01:10:26   the iPhone the iPad the Mac laptop [TS]

01:10:28   everything we're considering that helps [TS]

01:10:30   them see where the company is spending [TS]

01:10:32   its energy and how things connect this [TS]

01:10:33   is I've saying this and he can ask does [TS]

01:10:35   this thing make sense because over here [TS]

01:10:36   we're growing another thing so this this [TS]

01:10:39   is how Jobs would get a handle on like [TS]

01:10:42   you know we got a lot of things in [TS]

01:10:43   motion a lot of stuff going on we just [TS]

01:10:44   look through designs to do so I can look [TS]

01:10:46   at the whole the whole thing right when [TS]

01:10:49   I read that I thought this is why mobile [TS]

01:10:51   may screwed up this is why I have dim [TS]

01:10:53   hopes for iCloud [TS]

01:10:54   right because if the way you get a sense [TS]

01:10:58   of how your company is doing and where [TS]

01:11:00   it's heading is by wandering through a [TS]

01:11:01   hardware design studio that's great if [TS]

01:11:03   your goal is to make awesome hard [TS]

01:11:04   we're but increasingly the awesome [TS]

01:11:05   hardware has to be backed by services [TS]

01:11:07   and the fact that that's just like oh [TS]

01:11:09   yeah and also make sure the service is [TS]

01:11:10   all working everything [TS]

01:11:11   it can't be an also-ran that can't be a [TS]

01:11:13   an ancillary thing there's no equivalent [TS]

01:11:16   of him like walking through the data [TS]

01:11:17   centers or walking through the room [TS]

01:11:18   where they monitor the data centers or [TS]

01:11:20   anything like that or seeing how you [TS]

01:11:22   know like all that stuff that Google is [TS]

01:11:24   great at and then Amazon has expertise [TS]

01:11:25   in and that Apple did Steve Jobs just [TS]

01:11:27   seemed to want to work and not have to [TS]

01:11:29   worry about it he's walking through the [TS]

01:11:30   design studio that's that I thought was [TS]

01:11:32   highlighting the fact that if Jobs had [TS]

01:11:34   lived you know to be 80 years old [TS]

01:11:36   eventually his focus on hardware would [TS]

01:11:40   have become an Achilles heel where it [TS]

01:11:43   was great for when devices were [TS]

01:11:45   important you still make awesome devices [TS]

01:11:46   but you really have to pay attention to [TS]

01:11:48   that other part and to his credit like [TS]

01:11:49   iCloud is a realization of that to say [TS]

01:11:52   like we need to do it differently we [TS]

01:11:53   need to see how other people are doing [TS]

01:11:54   in the cloud is centric so on and so [TS]

01:11:56   forth uh but it's not it's against his [TS]

01:11:58   nature and he was still kind of like he [TS]

01:12:01   wants it to work and he's annoyed when [TS]

01:12:02   it doesn't but he's not you know he's [TS]

01:12:05   still looking through the design studio [TS]

01:12:06   to get an idea of where the company was [TS]

01:12:08   headed future directions a couple people [TS]

01:12:11   talked about and all the articles talked [TS]

01:12:12   about this that he was saying he wanted [TS]

01:12:13   to disrupt the textbook industry which [TS]

01:12:15   is billion dollar undersea listen [TS]

01:12:17   there's so many industries that have [TS]

01:12:19   that are screwed up that have entrenched [TS]

01:12:23   interests who are just interested in [TS]

01:12:25   reaching themselves and like textbooks [TS]

01:12:27   have like approvals and look at local [TS]

01:12:29   government levels and local government [TS]

01:12:31   is just you know the local government in [TS]

01:12:32   Texas does not agree with local Oberon [TS]

01:12:34   Jersey does not agree with local [TS]

01:12:35   government in California but there have [TS]

01:12:37   to these national textbook sellers [TS]

01:12:39   wanted something that's accepted [TS]

01:12:40   everywhere and it's just it's a big mess [TS]

01:12:42   and you know this is this is industry [TS]

01:12:43   that he saw was stupid and corrupt and [TS]

01:12:45   they could crush it if they could just [TS]

01:12:47   do a digital textbook type thing with [TS]

01:12:49   the iPad and all that stuff so it's [TS]

01:12:51   interesting that he had you know that he [TS]

01:12:52   was willing to admit that he had a sight [TS]

01:12:53   set on that that's another example where [TS]

01:12:55   success at disrupting the industry [TS]

01:12:57   depends on some amount of cooperation or [TS]

01:13:01   coercion or co-opting of the existing [TS]

01:13:04   powers I would like to see him do that [TS]

01:13:05   too but it's a tough thing to pull off [TS]

01:13:07   that's that's an example of where be [TS]

01:13:09   like oh well Jobs is gone but the [TS]

01:13:11   combination of Tim Cook on the finance [TS]

01:13:13   and operations side and Johnny on the [TS]

01:13:14   design side can approximate what he was [TS]

01:13:16   doing well who's the guy who [TS]

01:13:19   persuading incumbent businesses of a new [TS]

01:13:22   way of thinking type thing I can cook [TS]

01:13:24   and get great contracts out of them and [TS]

01:13:26   go she ate with them but the whole sort [TS]

01:13:28   of do you want to sell sugar water line [TS]

01:13:30   that jobs are so good at to to overturn [TS]

01:13:34   the textbook industry that's tough sell [TS]

01:13:35   and it would you need some charisma for [TS]

01:13:37   that and I'm not sure you know you can't [TS]

01:13:40   take Tim Cook and Johnny I haven't tape [TS]

01:13:41   them together and put them into a [TS]

01:13:42   negotiating room and have them and have [TS]

01:13:44   them be as persuasive as Steve Jobs was [TS]

01:13:46   and even he may not have been able to do [TS]

01:13:48   it because some people you just can't [TS]

01:13:49   just can't be convinced and if anybody [TS]

01:13:51   can't be convinced it's probably the [TS]

01:13:52   textbook industry and any other future [TS]

01:13:56   direction talking about the the iCloud [TS]

01:13:58   thing you know Jobs is talking about the [TS]

01:14:02   server farm and and all of those stuff [TS]

01:14:05   and what he's going to do with the [TS]

01:14:07   iCloud and so this may see if this is a [TS]

01:14:08   direct quote I think this is from job [TS]

01:14:11   yeah I'm going to take mobile me and [TS]

01:14:13   make it free and we're going to make [TS]

01:14:14   syncing content simple we're building a [TS]

01:14:17   server farm in North Carolina we can [TS]

01:14:18   provide all the syncing you need and [TS]

01:14:20   that way we can lock in the customer [TS]

01:14:21   it's a direct quote from jobs people are [TS]

01:14:24   thinking like the only reason to do in [TS]

01:14:25   iCloud is they want to lock in the [TS]

01:14:26   customer then the Apple fans will go no [TS]

01:14:27   they're not trying to he said we're [TS]

01:14:30   making a server I'm Swing Gail you stop [TS]

01:14:31   singing that way we can lock in the [TS]

01:14:33   customer he said it like I don't think [TS]

01:14:36   that's bad I think that's how he thinks [TS]

01:14:38   you can make it you know like they do [TS]

01:14:40   that with all our products but the idea [TS]

01:14:42   that people the Apple defenders will say [TS]

01:14:44   that it's not about customer locking [TS]

01:14:46   that's you know that's what makes them [TS]

01:14:48   successful are your iTunes using the app [TS]

01:14:50   store was so successful because it [TS]

01:14:51   piggybacked on your iTunes stuff that [TS]

01:14:53   you already had you already have the [TS]

01:14:54   login the credit card and you bought the [TS]

01:14:55   stuff and the iTunes tracks to you but [TS]

01:14:57   with DRM originally we only play on the [TS]

01:14:59   iPod like that's kind of evil business [TS]

01:15:02   stuff or whatever is part of apples [TS]

01:15:04   success and jobs saw iCloud in a similar [TS]

01:15:07   vein that if we can you know everybody [TS]

01:15:08   does Google does everybody who provides [TS]

01:15:10   network services is like come to our [TS]

01:15:12   world get your facebook login will you [TS]

01:15:14   let you use your facebook login other [TS]

01:15:15   places play your games on Facebook [TS]

01:15:16   everyone wants you know lock in customer [TS]

01:15:18   they want you to stay there Google wants [TS]

01:15:20   you to live in a Google world put all [TS]

01:15:22   your stuff on Google put your data there [TS]

01:15:23   it's not it's just that's just the way [TS]

01:15:26   things work and Apple is always getting [TS]

01:15:29   slammed for the lock-in type thing well [TS]

01:15:30   you know here's a quote [TS]

01:15:32   that's just the way things work in the [TS]

01:15:33   in the network cloud world you want [TS]

01:15:35   people to you know the utopian vision of [TS]

01:15:37   everyone cooperating with everybody else [TS]

01:15:38   in interoperable protocols with data [TS]

01:15:40   that seamlessly transfers between [TS]

01:15:41   vendors but that's that's the you know [TS]

01:15:43   that's like the reason opendoc didn't [TS]

01:15:45   succeed nobody that's not in anybody's [TS]

01:15:46   particular interest except for the [TS]

01:15:47   customers it's great that we have things [TS]

01:15:49   like that like the open web and [TS]

01:15:50   everything but it's a tough sell offer [TS]

01:15:52   individual large for-profit corporations [TS]

01:15:54   to to do that with each other inevitably [TS]

01:15:57   they all want a bigger piece of the pie [TS]

01:16:00   jobs and gates just briefly on this he [TS]

01:16:04   did talk the jobs and duck the gates [TS]

01:16:05   about stuff and they were just kind of [TS]

01:16:08   like they were in that d8 conference [TS]

01:16:09   there at turn sort of a complimentary to [TS]

01:16:12   each other so yeah really appreciate [TS]

01:16:13   what Steve did oh yeah really preach it [TS]

01:16:15   what Bill did and you know especially [TS]

01:16:16   when Steve Jobs is dying Gates is going [TS]

01:16:18   to be you know it's not going to be [TS]

01:16:19   yelling at him and stuff and everything [TS]

01:16:21   you know the integrated approach works [TS]

01:16:23   well you know and you know I think that [TS]

01:16:24   you prove that the the windows approach [TS]

01:16:26   works well like I'll be nice to each [TS]

01:16:28   other but then when you get them [TS]

01:16:29   separated not as you can talk to them [TS]

01:16:31   separately finally for once actually [TS]

01:16:33   following up and talking to people Gates [TS]

01:16:36   clarified said the integrated approach [TS]

01:16:37   works well when Steve is at the helm but [TS]

01:16:39   it doesn't mean it will win many rounds [TS]

01:16:40   in the future kind of saying like yeah [TS]

01:16:41   that approach works only works well if [TS]

01:16:43   you're Steve Jobs which you know it's [TS]

01:16:46   kind of backsliding on his previous [TS]

01:16:47   position and the same thing with Jobs [TS]

01:16:49   saying like all you said the windows [TS]

01:16:51   work well with that open model and [TS]

01:16:52   everything are the fragmented model then [TS]

01:16:55   droid and stuff and the job says of [TS]

01:16:57   course is fragmented model worked but it [TS]

01:16:59   didn't make really great products who [TS]

01:17:00   produce crappy products that was the [TS]

01:17:01   problem the big problem setting skin as [TS]

01:17:04   IO your model work made a lot of money [TS]

01:17:05   but you made crap the two of them like [TS]

01:17:09   to their dying breath yeah right it's [TS]

01:17:11   not like you know it's just that honest [TS]

01:17:14   difference of opinion I think they [TS]

01:17:15   really are a collegial and understand [TS]

01:17:17   each other and respect each other but [TS]

01:17:18   they just disagree about what the right [TS]

01:17:20   way to do things is and they just won't [TS]

01:17:22   give in you know oh and the other thing [TS]

01:17:28   with the 1997 Mac world thing with gates [TS]

01:17:30   up on the big screen you know people [TS]

01:17:34   when the gates came up on the big screen [TS]

01:17:35   this is one there's like a big brother [TS]

01:17:37   reaction yeah Apple was announcing that [TS]

01:17:39   Microsoft was investing in the company [TS]

01:17:41   and they were going to office and stuff [TS]

01:17:43   like that and just huge cream with giant [TS]

01:17:45   Gateshead on it you can't see that an [TS]

01:17:47   apple that and not think about like the [TS]

01:17:49   Big Brother in the 1984 at and stuff [TS]

01:17:51   like that I always thought it was I like [TS]

01:17:55   that at the idea like look if you're [TS]

01:17:57   gonna if you're gonna make a deal with [TS]

01:18:00   Bill Gates like a get it over with [TS]

01:18:02   quickly like just gonna rip off the [TS]

01:18:03   band-aid and be put them up on the big [TS]

01:18:05   screen just like spell it out like yeah [TS]

01:18:07   that's right [TS]

01:18:08   this guy is like only Nixon can go to [TS]

01:18:09   China right uh but in retrospect job [TS]

01:18:12   says that a Sequoia from that was my [TS]

01:18:13   worst and stupidest aging event ever it [TS]

01:18:15   made me look small maybe didn't like of [TS]

01:18:17   ego purposes but I thought it was like [TS]

01:18:19   just get out of the way that's right [TS]

01:18:20   this guy Bill Gates the big scary dude [TS]

01:18:22   up there on the screen we're doing this [TS]

01:18:23   deal it's gonna happen just you know for [TS]

01:18:25   Apple to succeed Microsoft doesn't have [TS]

01:18:27   to fail done and done now I got to be I [TS]

01:18:29   got to be honest when that thing came [TS]

01:18:32   out and I saw that I I mean I I felt [TS]

01:18:36   like Apple was doing what it had to do [TS]

01:18:39   but I I agree it did make him seem small [TS]

01:18:43   it was I thought it was like I was [TS]

01:18:45   watching and I was like oh man like [TS]

01:18:48   Apple is screwed like that's that was [TS]

01:18:50   the feeling that I had watching that [TS]

01:18:52   thing don't you remember feeling that ya [TS]

01:18:55   know that's what people felt but like I [TS]

01:18:56   think you know I'm sure Jobs didn't like [TS]

01:18:59   and he would have liked it to see more [TS]

01:19:01   equal but Jobs was small at that point [TS]

01:19:03   you want it like he was not in a [TS]

01:19:04   position of power the sizes were [TS]

01:19:06   appropriate on that screen for the [TS]

01:19:07   positions in the industry in 97 in fact [TS]

01:19:10   maybe Bill Gates should have been bigger [TS]

01:19:11   you know and jobs jobs always has been [TS]

01:19:15   tries to be a legal humble in those you [TS]

01:19:18   know situations like we we think it's [TS]

01:19:20   really great I hope you guys like it you [TS]

01:19:22   know kind of like that's always his [TS]

01:19:23   thing and even in that one you know it [TS]

01:19:24   made him seem small main gaits the [TS]

01:19:26   important but like that was the whole [TS]

01:19:27   thing jobs is like look we're in a hole [TS]

01:19:29   guys we got it we got to come up out of [TS]

01:19:31   this it's gonna be a tough slog and I'm [TS]

01:19:33   just gonna start making moves clones no [TS]

01:19:35   deal with Microsoft yes get those losses [TS]

01:19:37   off the table clear out of the way like [TS]

01:19:38   that was you know it I think that was [TS]

01:19:41   part of the process and even as much as [TS]

01:19:43   it may have annoyed jobs and hurt him I [TS]

01:19:45   I don't think it hurt his plan for the [TS]

01:19:48   company for anything in helped tamp down [TS]

01:19:50   expectation you know like and I like me [TS]

01:19:52   me Microsoft for equal partners we're [TS]

01:19:54   gonna be great now because it took so [TS]

01:19:55   many years for them to get out of that [TS]

01:19:56   hole [TS]

01:19:57   was long hard work and that was kind of [TS]

01:19:59   the no it was a darkest right before the [TS]

01:20:02   sunrise type of a situation but it'd be [TS]

01:20:05   it's interesting that he didn't like [TS]

01:20:07   that uh you know again the competitive [TS]

01:20:09   thing I don't want to look small why so [TS]

01:20:11   here's a question why put him up on a [TS]

01:20:13   big screen period [TS]

01:20:15   yeah well that's this is also jobs [TS]

01:20:17   learning lessons of staging work you [TS]

01:20:18   know previously like the whole jobs [TS]

01:20:20   keynote thing was not hadn't arrived yet [TS]

01:20:24   he just come back from next where he [TS]

01:20:25   hadn't really been giving any big he [TS]

01:20:26   knows he really keen on it you know I [TS]

01:20:28   but he took away from that was like next [TS]

01:20:30   time I'm making sure you know exactly [TS]

01:20:31   what's going down where's the projector [TS]

01:20:33   are going to be I'm gonna I'm gonna do [TS]

01:20:34   it thing where you know get three [TS]

01:20:35   projectors and precisely align them so [TS]

01:20:38   it's super bright [TS]

01:20:38   I want everything exactly how I wanted I [TS]

01:20:40   want the stage this color I want this [TS]

01:20:41   you know that that whole thing he at [TS]

01:20:44   this point he was like uh I'll just walk [TS]

01:20:46   onstage and I'll just do my presentation [TS]

01:20:48   and didn't realize probably that like [TS]

01:20:49   boy how's this gonna look right he never [TS]

01:20:51   made that mistake again this is the [TS]

01:20:52   process of him learning no I got a you [TS]

01:20:55   know these keynote things are important [TS]

01:20:56   I got to get handling them here's what I [TS]

01:20:58   want listen and at you know he's soon [TS]

01:21:01   soon enough he's got things rising out [TS]

01:21:02   of the stage with black cloths and [TS]

01:21:04   making show a jump off a thing onto a [TS]

01:21:05   mat like in Conan you know anyone get [TS]

01:21:08   that reference no you shouldn't the [TS]

01:21:11   velcro wall from a Letterman [TS]

01:21:13   it wasn't the velcro but this is a big [TS]

01:21:15   vertical drop yeah he didn't stick to [TS]

01:21:17   him that's true yeah uh Johnny's [TS]

01:21:21   everybody never does yeah [TS]

01:21:23   jobs is personality this this is one one [TS]

01:21:30   of the rare instances he was talking to [TS]

01:21:32   Andy Hertzfeld which is like his go-to [TS]

01:21:33   guy for a lot of stuff here and I wish [TS]

01:21:35   he had talked to many more people [TS]

01:21:37   but he says Hertz Albans told me the one [TS]

01:21:40   question I'd truly love Steve the answer [TS]

01:21:42   is why you sometimes so mean this is [TS]

01:21:44   Hertzfeld saying this even his family [TS]

01:21:45   members wondered whether you simply lack [TS]

01:21:47   the filter that restrains people from [TS]

01:21:48   bending their words but wording thoughts [TS]

01:21:50   or willfully bypassed it Jobs claimed it [TS]

01:21:53   was the former that he liked the filter [TS]

01:21:55   not that he was bypassing the filter [TS]

01:21:56   basically job said this is who I am and [TS]

01:21:59   you can't expect me to be someone I'm [TS]

01:22:00   not [TS]

01:22:01   when I read that quote uh again I would [TS]

01:22:04   yeah when I read that quite I thought of [TS]

01:22:06   the Scorpion and the Frog as a parable [TS]

01:22:09   stories you know that's their wonderful [TS]

01:22:10   story [TS]

01:22:11   I don't know the detail looking to the [TS]

01:22:12   summary is like it is a the Frog wants [TS]

01:22:14   to get across the river with the [TS]

01:22:15   Scorpion and the Frog is like oh you met [TS]

01:22:17   your butcher in it I am you want to tell [TS]

01:22:19   it the right way I don't know if I can [TS]

01:22:20   tell it the right way but I can do [TS]

01:22:21   better than that okay I'm sure you can't [TS]

01:22:23   go work so there is a frog and a [TS]

01:22:26   scorpion at the bank of a river and the [TS]

01:22:30   Scorpion says to the Frog I can't swim [TS]

01:22:32   can you please carry me across the river [TS]

01:22:34   and the Frog says I can't carry across [TS]

01:22:37   the river you'll sting me we'll both [TS]

01:22:39   drown and the Scorpion says come on man [TS]

01:22:43   I'm not going to do that we'd both drown [TS]

01:22:45   like you said I just take me across the [TS]

01:22:46   thing frog says all right get on my back [TS]

01:22:50   so the Scorpion gets on the frogs back [TS]

01:22:52   and they're going across the river [TS]

01:22:54   they're going and they're going and [TS]

01:22:56   scorpion stings the Frog and they both [TS]

01:22:58   start to drown and the frogs going under [TS]

01:23:02   he says the scorpion what did you do [TS]

01:23:04   that for the scorpion says I'm a [TS]

01:23:06   scorpion it's in my nature [TS]

01:23:09   they both drown yeah basically and [TS]

01:23:13   that's all that's that's so meaty like [TS]

01:23:16   when someone says something like that [TS]

01:23:17   it's so scorpion and frog --is-- that I [TS]

01:23:19   would have just I feel like got a dig [TS]

01:23:21   into that man don't let him say that put [TS]

01:23:22   the quote in the book in the move on to [TS]

01:23:23   the next hop but talk about it with them [TS]

01:23:25   talk see what other people think you [TS]

01:23:27   know you know that Andy wanted to know [TS]

01:23:29   the answer this question you got the [TS]

01:23:31   answer did you go back to Andy and say [TS]

01:23:32   all the job says actually you know it's [TS]

01:23:33   not that I'm wilfully bypassing my [TS]

01:23:36   filter says I can't filter like it's [TS]

01:23:37   just in my nature I'm the scorpion right [TS]

01:23:39   what does the FL think of that which [TS]

01:23:41   theory does he prefer what do with other [TS]

01:23:42   friends think what does Steve Jobs think [TS]

01:23:43   about with those anyway I'm trying again [TS]

01:23:45   as the author investigative you know [TS]

01:23:48   examination his personality thing but on [TS]

01:23:51   this particular topic of the Scorpion [TS]

01:23:53   and the Frog I I have to think it kind [TS]

01:23:57   of gets into very quickly if I think [TS]

01:23:59   about it for more than two seconds very [TS]

01:24:00   quickly into arguments about freewill [TS]

01:24:02   and other stuff that are not appropriate [TS]

01:24:05   for this podcast and just you know like [TS]

01:24:07   can he control what he does do we do any [TS]

01:24:10   of us have freewill and what is the [TS]

01:24:12   definition of freewill in this context [TS]

01:24:14   but I think in the backing off from that [TS]

01:24:16   because that's a big black hole and we [TS]

01:24:18   don't want to get into any more commonly [TS]

01:24:22   understood concepts of [TS]

01:24:24   filtering and self-control that answer [TS]

01:24:28   that you know it's just in my nature [TS]

01:24:30   sounds to me like something someone says [TS]

01:24:32   to make themselves feel better right [TS]

01:24:34   because it's not as if you know there's [TS]

01:24:36   a lot mentally wrong with jobs right uh [TS]

01:24:39   but you can control your you can limit [TS]

01:24:42   your behavior to some degree you can [TS]

01:24:44   learn to limit it if it's important to [TS]

01:24:45   you and it just for a variety of reasons [TS]

01:24:50   that I don't think the book went into [TS]

01:24:51   that much but my impression is that so [TS]

01:24:54   jobs a little is hangups with his you [TS]

01:24:56   know being adopted and stuff like that [TS]

01:24:58   his adoptive parents according to this [TS]

01:25:01   book at least always seemed to give in [TS]

01:25:03   to his whims and that sort of raised the [TS]

01:25:05   person who thought that he should be [TS]

01:25:06   deferred to that he's that he was very [TS]

01:25:08   sensitive and was upset a lot of the [TS]

01:25:10   time but his parents as parents tend to [TS]

01:25:12   do you know you want your kid to be [TS]

01:25:14   happy or trying to do whatever they [TS]

01:25:16   could to make sure he was happy and it [TS]

01:25:19   didn't always work but the lesson he [TS]

01:25:20   took from it was that my feelings are [TS]

01:25:22   more important than your feelings when [TS]

01:25:24   you know when I'm upset it's worse than [TS]

01:25:25   you being upset and since he was so [TS]

01:25:27   sensitive and so able to tell the people [TS]

01:25:29   when he did so he's like that just [TS]

01:25:32   seemed to be you know maybe it just is [TS]

01:25:33   in his nature but it seems to have some [TS]

01:25:36   factor you know in his upbringing and I [TS]

01:25:37   have to think as you get older and as [TS]

01:25:38   you learn this is something you could [TS]

01:25:40   have changed were you not the CEO of [TS]

01:25:42   Apple were you not the CEO of Pixar and [TS]

01:25:44   a millionaire so he was working the [TS]

01:25:45   nine-to-five job for you know minimum [TS]

01:25:47   wage right his personality would be [TS]

01:25:50   different because you just can't get [TS]

01:25:51   away with that like it's just the [TS]

01:25:52   environment that enables that doesn't [TS]

01:25:54   exist the environment that enables that [TS]

01:25:55   seem to exist in his childhood and [TS]

01:25:57   certainly exist once he was a [TS]

01:25:58   millionaire uh and to make the excuse [TS]

01:26:01   like I was just the way I am I can't [TS]

01:26:02   help it that's sort of an abdication of [TS]

01:26:04   responsibility that it did that defines [TS]

01:26:07   his character that I would have you know [TS]

01:26:08   I would have liked to seem that explored [TS]

01:26:10   more and see what he thought of that [TS]

01:26:11   because he's a smart guy but if I what [TS]

01:26:12   if I was said Steve Jobs face what would [TS]

01:26:13   he say to me he would he would you know [TS]

01:26:15   who'd probably argue with me about it [TS]

01:26:17   and say and it's a lost case I would [TS]

01:26:18   like to see that exchange and and Seth I [TS]

01:26:22   think came down the same way he's Austin [TS]

01:26:24   said this is a quote from the book but I [TS]

01:26:25   think he actually could have controlled [TS]

01:26:26   himself if he wanted to when he hurt [TS]

01:26:28   people was not because he was lacking [TS]

01:26:29   emotional awareness quite the contrary [TS]

01:26:30   he would size people up understand their [TS]

01:26:32   inner thoughts and no just had to relate [TS]

01:26:33   to them control them or hurt them at [TS]

01:26:34   will so I just an offer his opinion on [TS]

01:26:36   it here [TS]

01:26:38   doesn't you know it hurts felt hurts all [TS]

01:26:40   had the question he went the jobs and [TS]

01:26:42   posed the question got the answer and [TS]

01:26:43   then offered his opinion he didn't take [TS]

01:26:44   the answer back to hurts felt he didn't [TS]

01:26:46   ask other people he didn't do you know [TS]

01:26:47   it didn't do due diligence on it huh and [TS]

01:26:50   that's something I don't honestly I'm [TS]

01:26:52   not too interested in hearing you know [TS]

01:26:55   Isaacson's opinion on it as people [TS]

01:26:58   probably understand it hearing my [TS]

01:26:59   opinion I would have liked to know them [TS]

01:27:00   what everyone who actually knew Steve [TS]

01:27:01   Jobs thought about that answer what [TS]

01:27:03   Steve Jobs himself thought about the [TS]

01:27:04   obvious rebuttal Stan sir if I Justin [TS]

01:27:06   thought this that he could have [TS]

01:27:07   controlled himself did he say that the [TS]

01:27:08   jobs when he said to the jobs what a [TS]

01:27:09   jobs say blah blah blah I'm going in [TS]

01:27:11   circles again uh jobs is his kids so I [TS]

01:27:15   thought it was kind of a heartbreaking [TS]

01:27:16   section where he's talking about how [TS]

01:27:18   much his kids wanted to spend time with [TS]

01:27:20   him and especially the part where the [TS]

01:27:22   daughter asked to talk to Isaac sent [TS]

01:27:23   about stuff and how she said you know [TS]

01:27:27   sometimes I wish I had more of his [TS]

01:27:29   attention main jobs is Russian Brian but [TS]

01:27:31   but I know the work he's doing is very [TS]

01:27:32   important I think it's really cool so [TS]

01:27:34   I'm fine I really don't need more [TS]

01:27:35   attention translation I need more [TS]

01:27:37   attention that's the transit that's [TS]

01:27:39   right you know like it's substitute you [TS]

01:27:42   know I don't it's hard to be a parent in [TS]

01:27:44   any situation can being Steve Jobs and [TS]

01:27:47   being a parent and you know running even [TS]

01:27:49   people just run like a copy shop like [TS]

01:27:50   it's just work-life balance is not I [TS]

01:27:53   don't I don't say you know Steve Jobs is [TS]

01:27:55   a bad father or you know he was selfish [TS]

01:27:58   you should have paid more attention to [TS]

01:27:59   because what we're all guilty of all [TS]

01:28:01   these things to varying degrees [TS]

01:28:02   I don't come away with a demonizing him [TS]

01:28:05   but you do feel bad though that's it [TS]

01:28:07   like in every situation where there's [TS]

01:28:09   someone who does amazing things is [TS]

01:28:10   probably some aspect of their life [TS]

01:28:12   that's getting sacrificed for them to [TS]

01:28:13   accomplish these amazing things and it [TS]

01:28:14   said when the part the sacrifices is [TS]

01:28:16   family life our kids even his wife [TS]

01:28:19   complained about it saying after two [TS]

01:28:20   years of him being jobs being ill he [TS]

01:28:23   finally gets a little better and the [TS]

01:28:24   kids they mean the kids expected he [TS]

01:28:26   would focus a bit on them but he didn't [TS]

01:28:28   he just you know went right back to work [TS]

01:28:29   so even even the mother is kind of [TS]

01:28:31   disappointed like maybe this illness [TS]

01:28:32   would like get him to focus or Steve [TS]

01:28:34   Jobs was just that they didn't ask about [TS]

01:28:37   this too much in the book either but I [TS]

01:28:38   get the sense from all the things that [TS]

01:28:39   he's done that especially the [TS]

01:28:41   philanthropy angle they did talk about a [TS]

01:28:42   little bit the reason Steve Jobs I think [TS]

01:28:46   Steve Jobs didn't give so much money to [TS]

01:28:47   didn't seem to like be public about his [TS]

01:28:49   going to plant agree and cancel the [TS]

01:28:51   Apple [TS]

01:28:51   Grahame to give money to charity and [TS]

01:28:52   stuff like that is that jobs really [TS]

01:28:54   truly believed that the best use of his [TS]

01:28:56   time and money and resources was to put [TS]

01:29:00   it all into Apple to make better things [TS]

01:29:01   to make the world better and that was [TS]

01:29:03   that that was more bang for the buck and [TS]

01:29:05   if you I think in his lizard bling brain [TS]

01:29:07   have you said what will have a more you [TS]

01:29:09   know what's a better use of your time [TS]

01:29:11   hanging out with your kids or working at [TS]

01:29:12   Apple if you pose that question to him [TS]

01:29:15   which Isaacson I don't think you did [TS]

01:29:16   right the right answer is all my kids [TS]

01:29:18   are the most important thing to me and [TS]

01:29:19   family like a jobs gives that answer on [TS]

01:29:21   the stage all the time like it would you [TS]

01:29:22   know our families are the most important [TS]

01:29:24   and blah blah but deep down I bet if you [TS]

01:29:26   just you know sodium pentathol him or [TS]

01:29:28   whatever he would say a bit you know [TS]

01:29:32   working in Apple has more bang for the [TS]

01:29:33   buck I'm going to make millions of [TS]

01:29:34   people's lives better I'm going to [TS]

01:29:36   change millions of lives when I talk to [TS]

01:29:37   my kids I just change one life and I [TS]

01:29:39   think that sort of inescapable math [TS]

01:29:42   logic with just lurking under there [TS]

01:29:44   despite the lip service despite [TS]

01:29:45   everything else the reality what he [TS]

01:29:47   actually did you know what you say and [TS]

01:29:49   what you do are two very different [TS]

01:29:51   things and what he did kind of shows [TS]

01:29:53   that he thought spending time with his [TS]

01:29:54   kids particularly the girls which is [TS]

01:29:56   really painful like he seems to invest a [TS]

01:29:57   lot and read according to this book and [TS]

01:29:59   we have no other accounts that this is [TS]

01:30:00   all we have to go on uh but the girls [TS]

01:30:03   less so it and even less so the girls [TS]

01:30:06   whose personalities were not like him [TS]

01:30:07   like he was more into Eve who was feisty [TS]

01:30:08   and more like him but Aaron who was kind [TS]

01:30:10   of you know shy and everything as a [TS]

01:30:13   parent it hurts to read that because you [TS]

01:30:17   know logically you can understand all [TS]

01:30:19   that stuff about making the world better [TS]

01:30:21   and it's you know you know he's it's [TS]

01:30:23   more important for him to do the stuff [TS]

01:30:24   with Apple would you rather have a [TS]

01:30:27   really happy set of Steve Jobs children [TS]

01:30:29   and no iPhone iPad iPod and all that [TS]

01:30:32   stuff and just like a complete windows [TS]

01:30:33   world and no Mac and like no one wants [TS]

01:30:36   to make that choice there but it's at [TS]

01:30:37   the same time like I guess what I come [TS]

01:30:40   away was I think he he could have and [TS]

01:30:42   should have struck a better balance and [TS]

01:30:44   maybe that's just because I'm a parent [TS]

01:30:46   and if you're just like holding [TS]

01:30:47   calculator you could say forget the kids [TS]

01:30:48   I want my iPhone you know well I dare [TS]

01:30:51   that you know I'll tell you I would [TS]

01:30:52   actually been thinking about this [TS]

01:30:53   specific topic for a while and you know [TS]

01:30:56   especially over the last week and Steve [TS]

01:31:00   Jobs is one of I would think [TS]

01:31:03   small handful of people very very small [TS]

01:31:06   number of people in the world who can [TS]

01:31:09   actually say and this may sound callous [TS]

01:31:13   or whatever but they can actually say [TS]

01:31:15   that the work that they're doing is more [TS]

01:31:17   maybe more important than like being at [TS]

01:31:21   home with their kids like because so [TS]

01:31:23   many if you're looking at this from the [TS]

01:31:25   computer we qualify this by saying if [TS]

01:31:27   you're looking at it from the [TS]

01:31:28   statistical logical computer standpoint [TS]

01:31:31   like if you fed the data to a computer [TS]

01:31:34   and asked it which is more important [TS]

01:31:37   computer should Steve Jobs be at home [TS]

01:31:39   with its family or should he be at work [TS]

01:31:41   inventing an iPhone which will bring you [TS]

01:31:43   know look at look at the way that this [TS]

01:31:46   is gonna this is going to start to [TS]

01:31:47   really reach here but look at the way [TS]

01:31:49   that the iPad has benefited people who [TS]

01:31:51   cannot otherwise communicate whether [TS]

01:31:52   they're kids who have autism or whatever [TS]

01:31:55   the way that the and I've seen that [TS]

01:31:57   firsthand the way that that device is [TS]

01:32:01   helping people who for years couldn't [TS]

01:32:04   communicate with their children who have [TS]

01:32:06   adult children that they never knew [TS]

01:32:07   could they even think and now they know [TS]

01:32:10   when they're talking to them like Steve [TS]

01:32:12   Jobs had a huge hand in making that [TS]

01:32:15   happen and that's happening not in like [TS]

01:32:17   five or six places but in hundreds maybe [TS]

01:32:19   thousands of homes around the world like [TS]

01:32:22   that's just one example so would you [TS]

01:32:25   then say computer that it's better for [TS]

01:32:28   Steve Jobs to be a work working on this [TS]

01:32:30   stuff you you would say yes logically [TS]

01:32:33   yes [TS]

01:32:34   but I'm also the opinion that like the [TS]

01:32:36   most important work that you do is [TS]

01:32:38   raising your families raising your kids [TS]

01:32:41   so it's it's kind of weird and it's I [TS]

01:32:44   don't know if there really is an answer [TS]

01:32:45   there well yeah the parent idea in there [TS]

01:32:49   is that someone else can always do the [TS]

01:32:52   stuff you're doing an apple maybe not as [TS]

01:32:54   well so and so forth but you're not as [TS]

01:32:56   replaceable as a father I'll be an apple [TS]

01:32:59   someone else can be dad to my kids right [TS]

01:33:01   I guess that's technically true if you [TS]

01:33:02   want them to be adopted but see how that [TS]

01:33:04   how'd you like that Steve being adopted [TS]

01:33:06   then you know you had great parents [TS]

01:33:08   seemingly who just did everything for [TS]

01:33:09   you and you're still broken up about it [TS]

01:33:11   and had problems with you know it's not [TS]

01:33:13   it's the one thing that only you can do [TS]

01:33:14   really because the [TS]

01:33:16   right you know are attached to you it [TS]

01:33:19   just seems to me like the balance could [TS]

01:33:21   have been better and getting back to [TS]

01:33:22   like the whole you know iPads helping [TS]

01:33:24   autistic people so like that that's [TS]

01:33:25   that's the easy example but I would say [TS]

01:33:28   even like the stuff that doesn't seem [TS]

01:33:30   like a big deal like you know just [TS]

01:33:33   people connected together more all I can [TS]

01:33:34   do a face time with my kids people being [TS]

01:33:36   successful with technology right the [TS]

01:33:38   millionaire the millions of people who [TS]

01:33:40   whose lives have been in an almost [TS]

01:33:43   insignificant way improved because the [TS]

01:33:46   camera is better now and it's faster and [TS]

01:33:47   they got that picture that they showed [TS]

01:33:49   to the grandparents it's a million [TS]

01:33:50   little things as I all didn't my ki [TS]

01:33:53   phone someone else would've made a great [TS]

01:33:54   phone it would have been fine no you [TS]

01:33:55   know we we all think that the Apple ones [TS]

01:33:57   are a little bit better it's it's you [TS]

01:33:58   know there's the huge magnitude things [TS]

01:34:00   like the benefits the disabled and this [TS]

01:34:02   just you know opening up new avenues of [TS]

01:34:04   communication with people who are [TS]

01:34:05   previously isolated those are like [TS]

01:34:07   relatively small number like you know [TS]

01:34:09   thousands or millions or whatever and [TS]

01:34:11   then there are the tiny tiny [TS]

01:34:12   infinitesimal little things but it's [TS]

01:34:14   just a little bit better than the other [TS]

01:34:15   phones would have been just look but [TS]

01:34:16   they just multiplied over 300 million [TS]

01:34:19   iPhones right it's you know it's just [TS]

01:34:21   different things one of them is about [TS]

01:34:23   volume and one of them is about the the [TS]

01:34:25   quality of the individual instances ah [TS]

01:34:27   but yeah you know and I think jobs [TS]

01:34:30   understood this because he was kind of [TS]

01:34:32   saying I want my kids to know me that's [TS]

01:34:33   it yeah that's a recognition that like I [TS]

01:34:35   haven't spent as much time with my kids [TS]

01:34:37   as the better angels of my nature think [TS]

01:34:40   that I showed that when he gets up on [TS]

01:34:41   the stage and says because really our [TS]

01:34:42   families are the most important things [TS]

01:34:43   he's saying that he's got to be guilty [TS]

01:34:45   inside to say I'm gonna say this too [TS]

01:34:48   because I know I haven't been living up [TS]

01:34:50   to this ideal this is my ideal and I'm [TS]

01:34:51   sad that I'm not living up to it you [TS]

01:34:53   know something the chat room has a [TS]

01:34:58   complaint about the thing Aaron Pressman [TS]

01:35:00   says this whole balancing of how [TS]

01:35:02   significant work is versus helping your [TS]

01:35:03   kids just making me sick yuck wrong way [TS]

01:35:06   to think about it I'm not sure what is [TS]

01:35:08   uh if you what's the widest I think it's [TS]

01:35:12   a difficult issue well it's it's an [TS]

01:35:14   issue that every single parent faces and [TS]

01:35:17   if you haven't thought about it um I [TS]

01:35:19   mean it's it's the kind of thing that it [TS]

01:35:21   at the start of the day when you have to [TS]

01:35:24   go do whatever it is you do to put food [TS]

01:35:27   on a table [TS]

01:35:28   hey there you think about it as a parent [TS]

01:35:30   I think you think about it every single [TS]

01:35:32   day you say man I wish I could do this [TS]

01:35:34   and this and this but I do have to work [TS]

01:35:36   and there is a trade-off well you know [TS]

01:35:38   what maybe I don't have to work maybe we [TS]

01:35:39   could buy it would take all of our money [TS]

01:35:41   right now and and we could buy a little [TS]

01:35:44   trailer on some land in the middle of [TS]

01:35:46   nowhere and you know in South Carolina [TS]

01:35:48   somewhere where land is still cheap and [TS]

01:35:52   you know as long as we have enough for [TS]

01:35:54   like we could farm we could have our own [TS]

01:35:56   Tomatoes you know we could we could live [TS]

01:35:59   and you know what living that way would [TS]

01:36:01   cost five thousand dollars a year and [TS]

01:36:02   then I can spend all the time in the [TS]

01:36:04   world with my kids I mean that's the [TS]

01:36:05   argument that's the flip side of it [TS]

01:36:07   maybe that's why he's feeling he's [TS]

01:36:08   saying Yaak yeah so Herron has clarified [TS]

01:36:11   so he said Jobs was a bad dad well [TS]

01:36:14   beyond the fact that he worked a lot [TS]

01:36:16   which i think is also true were all you [TS]

01:36:17   know failing his parents and various [TS]

01:36:19   reasons of course an Ali traits that [TS]

01:36:20   made jobs unique you know he's cruel to [TS]

01:36:23   his children it was you know just even [TS]

01:36:24   if he wasn't working when he was with [TS]

01:36:26   his children he wasn't so great with [TS]

01:36:27   them all the time it's it's not an easy [TS]

01:36:29   thing to do and the emotional answer is [TS]

01:36:31   obviously like well you should spend all [TS]

01:36:32   your time with the kids and I think [TS]

01:36:33   you're just getting a great example like [TS]

01:36:34   also what's the logical stream of that [TS]

01:36:36   we go live we go live in that place for [TS]

01:36:37   five grandi or should everybody do that [TS]

01:36:39   you know give away all your possessions [TS]

01:36:40   that maybe that's what you should do is [TS]

01:36:42   for Jesus that we should do so let's do [TS]

01:36:44   it [TS]

01:36:44   if this everything is a balance this [TS]

01:36:47   it's not black and white it's I think [TS]

01:36:49   Jobs himself clearly felt he didn't [TS]

01:36:51   strike the balance that he wanted to his [TS]

01:36:53   ideals were different than his actions [TS]

01:36:56   and I bet I bet he has similar feelings [TS]

01:36:59   about the whole Scorpion and Frog stuff [TS]

01:37:01   about how he's he's cruel to people he [TS]

01:37:03   kind of likes the result of that but you [TS]

01:37:06   know it must have been harder for him to [TS]

01:37:08   make relationships or to have close [TS]

01:37:09   relationships because there's not a lot [TS]

01:37:10   of people who can sort of tolerate that [TS]

01:37:12   kind of abuse and it's not you know you [TS]

01:37:15   know what I mean like he's got an inner [TS]

01:37:17   circle people who understood it you know [TS]

01:37:20   it's the Frog keeps letting you know I [TS]

01:37:22   got to find a frog well let me keep [TS]

01:37:23   stinging them and still be my friend you [TS]

01:37:25   know I think that's it I've got the [TS]

01:37:31   Isaacson interview in New York Times is [TS]

01:37:33   in the show notes you can read it to to [TS]

01:37:35   learn more about him but I think I've [TS]

01:37:36   already covered everything that I want [TS]

01:37:37   to cover from that mmm I could [TS]

01:37:42   some sort of summary of what I thought [TS]

01:37:43   Steve Jobs we could talk about him for a [TS]

01:37:44   while but we're over here so I hope [TS]

01:37:46   people are satisfied even though I [TS]

01:37:48   didn't spend this entire show I can tell [TS]

01:37:50   you they will they will not be that's [TS]

01:37:53   her they will not be not even close [TS]

01:37:56   there's a definition of drama all right [TS]

01:38:00   someone goes into a scene they want [TS]

01:38:02   something and they don't get it that's [TS]

01:38:03   drama that's what you think drama is [TS]

01:38:05   that was that a letter from playwright [TS]

01:38:09   whose name I can't pronounce it ma or [TS]

01:38:12   MIT he was trying to rope to a bunch of [TS]

01:38:16   people were writing television show to [TS]

01:38:17   explain explain to them what drama is [TS]

01:38:20   and why they're blowing it it's a great [TS]

01:38:21   letter okay [TS]

01:38:23   can't believe you don't know that one I [TS]

01:38:25   should put on the show notes to [TS]

01:38:26   telenovela I'll look it up I don't know [TS]

01:38:29   that one all right someone saying Emmett [TS]

01:38:34   you don't know how to pronounce it or [TS]

01:38:35   not you know this is many that's how I [TS]

01:38:38   say but some of the chat room says [TS]

01:38:39   minute something says they want to hear [TS]

01:38:42   me talk about free will no that's not [TS]

01:38:43   the show I would love to hear you [TS]

01:38:45   talking about free man no you wouldn't [TS]

01:38:46   well how sure would oh my god yeah [TS]

01:38:49   someday well somebody will do a show [TS]

01:38:51   about your cult diets and Buddhism in [TS]

01:38:54   free will and I'll just be can we get a [TS]

01:38:56   little preview no you know just drop it [TS]

01:39:00   it's a legend in politics let's avoid [TS]

01:39:03   avoid hmm is it because it a lien AIT's [TS]

01:39:08   too many people who were otherwise enjoy [TS]

01:39:10   listening to talk about tech topics [TS]

01:39:11   people talk about like oh you shouldn't [TS]

01:39:13   be afraid to talk about your political [TS]

01:39:14   pains like if they're your opinions you [TS]

01:39:15   should you know be proud of them and [TS]

01:39:17   have them and some some respects I agree [TS]

01:39:19   with that but if it's a show about Apple [TS]

01:39:22   and related businesses and technologies [TS]

01:39:24   that's not the correct forum to talk [TS]

01:39:25   about that and all you're gonna do is [TS]

01:39:26   offend and annoy people who didn't come [TS]

01:39:28   to your show to hear about religion and [TS]

01:39:29   politics mm-hmm but we could do an after [TS]

01:39:33   dark about it sometime because there no [TS]

01:39:34   all bets are off of there oh yeah they [TS]

01:39:36   are we can curse which would be [TS]

01:39:38   appropriate when we talk about your [TS]

01:39:39   diets all right well I we we want to [TS]

01:39:44   mention that next week we will be we [TS]

01:39:48   will be here even though it is the week [TS]

01:39:50   of Thanksgiving here in the United [TS]

01:39:52   States we will be here we will be [TS]

01:39:53   recording on a regularly scheduled time [TS]

01:39:55   and [TS]

01:39:55   I I I'm willing to bet that John [TS]

01:40:00   siracusa will have eaten turkey [TS]

01:40:03   hopefully yes turkey will have been [TS]

01:40:05   successfully consumed even that very day [TS]

01:40:07   right before we work leftovers and [TS]

01:40:09   sandwiches yeah [TS]

01:40:10   so if you want you can tune in you know [TS]

01:40:14   I think a lot of people will be home [TS]

01:40:15   that day so maybe maybe we can have [TS]

01:40:18   people tune in live and how do they do [TS]

01:40:19   that they go to five by five TV slash [TS]

01:40:22   life and they can tune in live and we [TS]

01:40:25   start recording at noon Eastern Time we [TS]

01:40:31   can tune in listen to us chat and you [TS]

01:40:33   can eat your leftovers eat your moist [TS]

01:40:35   maker whatever it is that you like and [TS]

01:40:38   that's it you can follow John siracusa [TS]

01:40:41   on Twitter siracusa figure it out and [TS]

01:40:44   I'm Dan benjamin on twitter and at five [TS]

01:40:46   by five TV we've got all the previous 41 [TS]

01:40:49   episodes of this is 41 or 42 Wow [TS]

01:40:53   41 to previous this is 43 this is not 43 [TS]

01:40:57   this is what how come I gonna mark this [TS]

01:41:00   I don't know 42 if they would have made [TS]

01:41:01   note of that one is that was a big one [TS]

01:41:03   Adams you know because they're showing [TS]

01:41:05   Douglas Adams yeah that's right and [TS]

01:41:07   somebody pointed out that that what a [TS]

01:41:11   coincidence that the best episode of [TS]

01:41:13   hypercritical episode 42 was also the [TS]

01:41:16   answer to life and everything involving [TS]

01:41:17   blah blah so this is number 43 I hope I [TS]

01:41:20   said it right in the beginning but who [TS]

01:41:21   cares so that'll be episode 44 yeah and [TS]

01:41:24   and everyone who seemed to love episode [TS]

01:41:27   42 funnel that enthusiasm for the show [TS]

01:41:30   what could while you're still on that [TS]

01:41:31   high and don't change your mind and [TS]

01:41:33   start hitting it into a positive review [TS]

01:41:35   on iTunes genius yeah because all for [TS]

01:41:39   all that positive feedback you think boy [TS]

01:41:40   now is going to be a big bump in the [TS]

01:41:42   number of people rating and writing [TS]

01:41:43   reviews nope no bump alright then that's [TS]

01:41:50   it John have a good week Happy [TS]

01:41:51   Thanksgiving [TS]

01:41:52   you too [TS]

01:41:54   [Music] [TS]

01:42:14   you [TS]