47: Brute Force Attack


00:00:02   this is hypercritical weekly talkshow [TS]

00:00:04   ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:07   the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:08   technologies and businesses [TS]

00:00:10   nothing is so perfect it cannot be [TS]

00:00:12   complained about by my co-host John [TS]

00:00:15   siracusa I'm Dan Benjamin [TS]

00:00:17   today is December 23rd 2011 it's Friday [TS]

00:00:21   this is episode number 47 we have a [TS]

00:00:26   couple of sponsors that we would like to [TS]

00:00:28   thank very much for making this show [TS]

00:00:30   possible the first one is tap folio an [TS]

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00:00:34   markets create a simple watch list or [TS]

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00:00:42   iPad rendered in glorious OpenGL tap [TS]

00:00:44   folios third update hits the App Store [TS]

00:00:46   with a small bonus it's completely free [TS]

00:00:49   for the holidays get it and share it [TS]

00:00:51   from facebook.com slash tap folio [TS]

00:00:55   bandwidth for this episode of [TS]

00:00:57   hypercritical is brought to you by [TS]

00:00:58   stitcher smart radio here all the shows [TS]

00:01:00   from five by five and thousands of other [TS]

00:01:02   great podcasts on demand and on the go [TS]

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00:01:06   calm / 5 is where you'll find it you can [TS]

00:01:10   also win 100 bucks hello john siracusa [TS]

00:01:15   of massachusetts hello Dan Benjamin of [TS]

00:01:18   the lower part of the United States [TS]

00:01:22   wherever you love Florida Texas that's [TS]

00:01:24   it I know I was born and raised in [TS]

00:01:26   Philadelphia Pennsylvania right but I [TS]

00:01:29   mean like as a Riesling adult uh as an [TS]

00:01:32   adult I lived in South Florida Central [TS]

00:01:35   Florida and Austin Texas and North [TS]

00:01:38   Carolina Raleigh area there you go for a [TS]

00:01:40   while more southern states yeah try to [TS]

00:01:42   hit them all I'm done now all right stay [TS]

00:01:46   here for a while I'm gonna start today [TS]

00:01:50   is a episode with a quote this is from [TS]

00:01:55   Wallace set Stanley ser si y re okay [TS]

00:01:59   nothing to do it would you call him a [TS]

00:02:01   super ser I don't know I don't know if [TS]

00:02:04   that's how you pronounce his name he was [TS]

00:02:05   a professor at Columbia University in [TS]

00:02:07   the early 1900's he died 1972 according [TS]

00:02:10   to Wikipedia probably not a Super Saiyan [TS]

00:02:13   and this quote that I just looked up is [TS]

00:02:15   from The Wall Street Journal in 1973 [TS]

00:02:18   okay I don't know how I guess they [TS]

00:02:22   quoted him after his death post post [TS]

00:02:25   post whom ously quoted yes I quote [TS]

00:02:28   assess academic politics is the most [TS]

00:02:29   vicious and bitter form of politics [TS]

00:02:31   because the stakes are so low have you [TS]

00:02:33   heard that saying before I've never [TS]

00:02:35   heard that before [TS]

00:02:36   I have I heard many times before but [TS]

00:02:37   they had no idea who it was attributed [TS]

00:02:39   to so I looked it up and that quote [TS]

00:02:42   applies to two topics from the last show [TS]

00:02:45   I think and we will cover both of them [TS]

00:02:47   in the follow-up segment Wow starting [TS]

00:02:51   with the most trivial of the two with [TS]

00:02:55   lowest stakes and of course had the most [TS]

00:02:57   vicious and bitter feedback from readers [TS]

00:03:00   sure and that is the offhanded comment I [TS]

00:03:05   made during some other topic about how I [TS]

00:03:08   didn't like how some fortune article had [TS]

00:03:12   made Steve Jobs his last name possessive [TS]

00:03:15   right and they had written it Jay OBS ' [TS]

00:03:19   and I said I didn't like that you did [TS]

00:03:20   not like I liked Jay OBS apostrophe s [TS]

00:03:23   now for the record I don't remember you [TS]

00:03:24   saying that you thought that it was [TS]

00:03:26   wrong I mean maybe I'm remembering this [TS]

00:03:29   incorrectly I don't remember you saying [TS]

00:03:30   that's wrong as much as perhaps [TS]

00:03:33   something along the lines of that's not [TS]

00:03:35   the way to do it that's not the way I [TS]

00:03:37   like to do it or that doesn't make sense [TS]

00:03:39   you were certainly I don't like it was [TS]

00:03:41   what I said but yeah which which is true [TS]

00:03:43   but then you then you asked well before [TS]

00:03:45   we get to that so it regardless of what [TS]

00:03:48   I said that the readers lots and lots of [TS]

00:03:50   feedback on this lots of feedback [TS]

00:03:51   Twitter lots of direct email to my arse [TS]

00:03:53   account lots of email through the forum [TS]

00:03:56   and of course the most vicious readers [TS]

00:04:01   were very sure that whatever their [TS]

00:04:03   position was was exactly correct like [TS]

00:04:06   that there was there's no ambiguity [TS]

00:04:07   there's no debate no conflict [TS]

00:04:10   to quote Darth Vader and that is just a [TS]

00:04:14   clear-cut issue and of course we got [TS]

00:04:15   feedback in both sides of that clear-cut [TS]

00:04:18   in one direction the other number when [TS]

00:04:19   we talked about it your first thing you [TS]

00:04:21   asked me after I said I didn't like it [TS]

00:04:22   at all [TS]

00:04:22   he said well isn't this just a style [TS]

00:04:24   issue and I said [TS]

00:04:26   well see when people say a style issue [TS]

00:04:29   I'm not quite sure what they mean I mean [TS]

00:04:30   what I said was I don't I don't really [TS]

00:04:32   think it's like a style issue like how [TS]

00:04:34   you choose to write but then I said you [TS]

00:04:35   know different style guides say [TS]

00:04:37   different things but you know some style [TS]

00:04:39   guide say you should do it this way some [TS]

00:04:40   song I'd say you should do it the other [TS]

00:04:41   way so it's not it's clearly an issue [TS]

00:04:43   with a I don't think anybody has the [TS]

00:04:46   authority to say this is the absolute [TS]

00:04:48   right way to do it because because the [TS]

00:04:52   opinions do vary so much but I very [TS]

00:04:55   strongly prefer one particular way so if [TS]

00:04:58   I was creating my style guide obviously [TS]

00:05:00   I would say that you should do it this [TS]

00:05:01   way so I guess some example some [TS]

00:05:04   examples from Twitter and email stuff of [TS]

00:05:06   things that people said so here is I [TS]

00:05:09   guess this is an email here is Brian [TS]

00:05:13   Lennon bram sorry Brian [TS]

00:05:14   Brandon Lennox saying this is not a [TS]

00:05:16   stylistic choice I mean that's as [TS]

00:05:18   straightforward as you can get this is [TS]

00:05:19   not a stylistic choice the fortunes [TS]

00:05:21   treatment was incorrect and Isaacson [TS]

00:05:22   miraculously gets a right Isaacson's [TS]

00:05:24   book by the way it says J OBS apostrophe [TS]

00:05:26   s which is the way I like it better so [TS]

00:05:29   now you're a fan of Isaacson and I don't [TS]

00:05:31   know so this is this is Brandon Lennox [TS]

00:05:34   and he said then he falls it up by [TS]

00:05:35   saying I speak with the authority of an [TS]

00:05:36   amateur bloggers so obviously he's [TS]

00:05:38   little tongue in cheek there ah lots of [TS]

00:05:40   feedback from people whose Nate whose [TS]

00:05:42   last names ended s to example there Adam [TS]

00:05:45   weeks and Rob Matthews and both of them [TS]

00:05:48   prefer to have the apostrophe s added to [TS]

00:05:49   the end of their names and Rob Matthews [TS]

00:05:52   actually recommends reading the book [TS]

00:05:55   eats shoots and leaves everything that [TS]

00:05:57   one have not seen that one it's fairly [TS]

00:06:02   well known like book about grammar and [TS]

00:06:04   punctuation never never seen it made it [TS]

00:06:06   through my English degree without ever [TS]

00:06:07   hearing event and I think that's what [TS]

00:06:09   eats shoots and leaves yeah I part of [TS]

00:06:12   the book for I think I've a read part of [TS]

00:06:14   it but I'm presuming that it's support [TS]

00:06:15   you know when I'm looking at the I'm [TS]

00:06:16   looking at the cover now here on Amazon [TS]

00:06:19   which I'll put this in the show notes [TS]

00:06:21   and and it is familiar to me I'm pretty [TS]

00:06:24   sure I have seen this but I hey yeah why [TS]

00:06:27   not like refer to the Chicago Manual of [TS]

00:06:29   style for that so and then so those are [TS]

00:06:32   on one side on the other side you've got [TS]

00:06:33   Josh Biggs I can't help reading his [TS]

00:06:36   names and I think blast Biggs where are [TS]

00:06:38   you well here he is he's on Twitter [TS]

00:06:40   uh says I don't know what kind of school [TS]

00:06:43   Syracuse who went to but as a person [TS]

00:06:45   with last name that ends in s the proper [TS]

00:06:47   possessive is esta pasto he's a last [TS]

00:06:49   name s ender who likes it the other way [TS]

00:06:51   he just likes s apostrophe ed and then [TS]

00:06:54   he says and for the record s apostrophe [TS]

00:06:56   s is the British Standard whereas the s [TS]

00:06:59   apostrophe is the American convention [TS]

00:07:01   hmm most of the people who are just so [TS]

00:07:03   sure of whatever they're both these [TS]

00:07:04   people who are who are you know I like [TS]

00:07:06   it this way because I have last name [TS]

00:07:08   ending with s that gives me some sort of [TS]

00:07:09   authority to say how it should be one [TS]

00:07:11   way the other obviously even the people [TS]

00:07:13   with last names ending in S can't agree [TS]

00:07:15   but but so people are just so sure about [TS]

00:07:17   it and it makes me wonder no they don't [TS]

00:07:19   they don't even phrase it in like I like [TS]

00:07:21   it this way better or whatever just like [TS]

00:07:22   there is one correct way josh biggs is [TS]

00:07:25   saying there's one correct way for the [TS]

00:07:27   british standard is one correct way for [TS]

00:07:28   america no ambiguity i mean i guess it's [TS]

00:07:31   hard to get mp18 one in 140 character so [TS]

00:07:33   that may not be a fair characterization [TS]

00:07:34   and then some fellow named Dan Benjamin [TS]

00:07:38   response to Josh Biggs and says I like [TS]

00:07:40   to know yeah I'm an English major [TS]

00:07:42   see how polite a I'm not to correct him [TS]

00:07:43   on the trail never correct you on the [TS]

00:07:44   show see that when I read that it makes [TS]

00:07:47   you think that you think I needed to be [TS]

00:07:49   corrected and that you have a strong [TS]

00:07:51   opinion one way or the other honest I do [TS]

00:07:52   I do what is yours your show that I'm [TS]

00:07:54   looking you know I know what is your [TS]

00:07:56   opinion I ask ' of course obviously I do [TS]

00:08:00   think there's ambiguity well no no no [TS]

00:08:02   ambiguity oh did now now listen if you [TS]

00:08:05   if you're Steve Jobs or Matthews or [TS]

00:08:07   whoever and you you want to add the [TS]

00:08:10   apostrophe s you know that's your [TS]

00:08:13   preference just like you can wear a blue [TS]

00:08:14   sweater instead of a red sweater who [TS]

00:08:15   cares you know it's your your own choice [TS]

00:08:18   but as far as the one true correct way [TS]

00:08:21   to do it of course it's s apostrophe [TS]

00:08:23   come on it has to be the funeral edit [TS]

00:08:26   because the fewer letters the better [TS]

00:08:28   always alright so how do you you know [TS]

00:08:31   had you come to that realization how did [TS]

00:08:36   that come to it because fewer letters if [TS]

00:08:38   your letters are better the less I have [TS]

00:08:40   to write or type the better so it's that [TS]

00:08:43   it's like your personal your personal [TS]

00:08:45   rule is the fewer letters have to type [TS]

00:08:47   the better therefore this is what I was [TS]

00:08:49   taught in my in my technical writing [TS]

00:08:50   classes the more efficient you can be [TS]

00:08:53   for example [TS]

00:08:54   don't say utilize when you can say use [TS]

00:08:56   you know you focus on the most clear [TS]

00:08:58   concise effective way to communicate [TS]

00:09:02   something so if it if the choice is left [TS]

00:09:04   up to me and I'm going to type J OB s [TS]

00:09:07   apostrophe s or J OB s apostrophe why I [TS]

00:09:11   add the extra SH I don't need down who [TS]

00:09:13   needs that [TS]

00:09:14   but mostly 2011 who had strong opinions [TS]

00:09:16   when we did not say from where their [TS]

00:09:20   opinions come a lot of them I assume [TS]

00:09:22   that I mean most people get their [TS]

00:09:24   grammar rules from either what they've [TS]

00:09:26   been taught in school or reading grammar [TS]

00:09:28   books after the fact I mean because most [TS]

00:09:31   people aren't born with any particular [TS]

00:09:32   preference or grammar rules a lot of [TS]

00:09:34   them are kind of arbitrary anyway but [TS]

00:09:35   what we're all trying to do is how do [TS]

00:09:37   you pronounce it let me ask this John [TS]

00:09:39   how do you pronounce it so if you say [TS]

00:09:41   that they're there this iPad belongs to [TS]

00:09:45   John math uses this is John math uses [TS]

00:09:49   rather let me correct myself this is [TS]

00:09:52   John math uses iPad would you say that [TS]

00:09:55   yeah it's JC to cut the problem is it [TS]

00:09:58   main jobs is easier for me this is jobs [TS]

00:10:00   as iPad yeah it's a little off my tongue [TS]

00:10:01   that's a little better but the problem [TS]

00:10:03   is none of these are elegant solutions [TS]

00:10:05   the best way to say it is this iPad [TS]

00:10:07   belongs to ya such a perso so no matter [TS]

00:10:11   what what you did you're between a rock [TS]

00:10:14   and a hard place you're forced into a [TS]

00:10:15   corner and there's no good way to do it [TS]

00:10:17   I would actually suggest that nobody [TS]

00:10:19   should have a name that ends with an S [TS]

00:10:22   that's not I think it's preposterous I [TS]

00:10:25   agree with that we should implement it [TS]

00:10:27   right away yeah this is we should all [TS]

00:10:28   use a ski let's get on the problem isn't [TS]

00:10:31   whether there's to be an S after the [TS]

00:10:33   apostrophe the problem is why our people [TS]

00:10:35   haven't asked Stan of their name at all [TS]

00:10:36   in the English language so for for these [TS]

00:10:40   types of issues like I have I have my [TS]

00:10:43   personal preference my personal [TS]

00:10:45   preference is mostly based on kind of [TS]

00:10:48   like the same reason that the Gruber who [TS]

00:10:51   we'll get to in a little bit likes to [TS]

00:10:52   put the sentence ending punctuation [TS]

00:10:53   outside yeah have we ever talked about [TS]

00:10:55   that did we talk about that here no but [TS]

00:10:58   you know that's I mean that's more of a [TS]

00:10:59   clear-cut case where there is a British [TS]

00:11:00   standard and an American standard I [TS]

00:11:02   think most people agree on that the [TS]

00:11:05   British one is the sentence ending [TS]

00:11:06   punctuation outside an Englishman [TS]

00:11:07   but the reason Gruber likes it on the [TS]

00:11:10   outside it's the same reason that I like [TS]

00:11:12   apostrophe s and that it's kind of like [TS]

00:11:14   a programmer mindset where you're like [TS]

00:11:15   well the thing I'm quoting doesn't [TS]

00:11:18   necessarily have the period in it so why [TS]

00:11:19   should the the sentence ending or even [TS]

00:11:21   like the comma or whatever go inside the [TS]

00:11:23   quote if it's not part of the quote you [TS]

00:11:25   know what I mean like say you're quoting [TS]

00:11:27   something you want to be exclamation but [TS]

00:11:29   the quote is an exclamation you quoting [TS]

00:11:30   it as an explanation that you know [TS]

00:11:31   desquamation to go outside it's just [TS]

00:11:33   it's like if you're making a string [TS]

00:11:35   literal in a programming language it's [TS]

00:11:37   clear that things inside the delimiters [TS]

00:11:39   are part of the literal oil and things [TS]

00:11:40   outside aren't like the statement ending [TS]

00:11:42   semicolon and c or c++ doesn't go inside [TS]

00:11:45   the quotes unless that's part of the [TS]

00:11:46   string literal that's a very good very [TS]

00:11:48   good argument in favor of doing it that [TS]

00:11:50   way right and I think that's why he does [TS]

00:11:52   me and he makes its own style guide [TS]

00:11:53   right so this is how I'm going to do it [TS]

00:11:54   daring fireball has a style guide this [TS]

00:11:56   is what it is I get to pick it you know [TS]

00:11:57   there you go [TS]

00:11:58   and the apostrophe s just seems uniform [TS]

00:12:00   to me because like when I see s ' I'm [TS]

00:12:01   like is there more than one of them and [TS]

00:12:03   you're saying so all of them is esta the [TS]

00:12:05   plural possessive but you know you can't [TS]

00:12:08   have like your own individual style [TS]

00:12:09   sweet publication has their own style [TS]

00:12:11   but there are some well-known style can [TS]

00:12:12   you name some style guides you named one [TS]

00:12:14   a red Chicago man your style is the main [TS]

00:12:16   one that I I will file and there's was [TS]

00:12:20   it straight get Strunk and white but of [TS]

00:12:22   course [TS]

00:12:22   oh of course it Chicago Manual of style [TS]

00:12:25   is the one that I followed back when I [TS]

00:12:27   was in college [TS]

00:12:28   eons ago in our technical writing group [TS]

00:12:32   our school as a team for the old school [TS]

00:12:35   that's what we followed my mother is an [TS]

00:12:38   English professor at college and has [TS]

00:12:40   been for most of them if not all of my [TS]

00:12:42   life [TS]

00:12:43   and that's what she follows so you know [TS]

00:12:45   you just you get a constant to something [TS]

00:12:47   and you stick with it the whole the [TS]

00:12:49   whole you know quotes with the [TS]

00:12:52   punctuation inside that's one of those [TS]

00:12:54   things that I love the idea of putting [TS]

00:12:58   the punctuation outside of the quote but [TS]

00:13:00   it feels so wrong to me it's it just I [TS]

00:13:04   like it better but it just feels totally [TS]

00:13:09   like I'm like I know I'm breaking my [TS]

00:13:13   mom's hard if I do that so I don't do it [TS]

00:13:15   yeah I feel the same way I [TS]

00:13:17   I strongly prefer having it outside from [TS]

00:13:20   a programs perspective but [TS]

00:13:21   have made myself not do it that way to [TS]

00:13:23   the point now where it looks just weird [TS]

00:13:25   to me for it to be outside yeah I want [TS]

00:13:27   it like I want it there I want to do it [TS]

00:13:29   I know that you know yeah it's a family [TS]

00:13:32   thing and it just looks weird like it [TS]

00:13:34   I'm so used to it the other way from [TS]

00:13:35   reading it so much the other way I hear [TS]

00:13:37   something bugs man I know you're making [TS]

00:13:38   a point let me just throw this into the [TS]

00:13:40   mix okay I'm just gonna throw this out [TS]

00:13:41   there cuz I won't get your take on this [TS]

00:13:42   I know you're working towards something [TS]

00:13:44   I don't want to interact it makes people [TS]

00:13:46   very sad ah what do you think about the [TS]

00:13:51   American versus British pluralization of [TS]

00:13:54   things like companies like for example [TS]

00:13:56   in the u.s. we would say Apple has just [TS]

00:13:59   released a brand new iPad in the UK at [TS]

00:14:02   least written at least written they [TS]

00:14:05   would they would write may they say this [TS]

00:14:08   - I don't know Apple have just released [TS]

00:14:11   a brand new iPad yes I'm very aware of [TS]

00:14:13   this distinction having written about [TS]

00:14:15   companies a lot in my writing career I [TS]

00:14:19   would I would like to hear your comment [TS]

00:14:20   on that the thing about it that is in [TS]

00:14:23   certain phrasings it's natural you find [TS]

00:14:26   yourself wanting to refer to the [TS]

00:14:28   companies as plural but in other [TS]

00:14:30   phrasings that sounds awkward to us so [TS]

00:14:31   the one you just gave - sounds crazy - [TS]

00:14:33   Americans like Apple have like that's [TS]

00:14:35   like that's wrong right but if you if [TS]

00:14:37   you've ever like edited anyone else [TS]

00:14:39   talking about Apple right you'll see [TS]

00:14:40   that people it in America will [TS]

00:14:44   constantly refer to Apple as plural in [TS]

00:14:48   certain constructs and not even realize [TS]

00:14:49   they're doing it so I try very hard to [TS]

00:14:51   always catch myself when I do that and [TS]

00:14:54   make sure that I'm really talking about [TS]

00:14:55   Apple and singular and if it sounds [TS]

00:14:56   awkward you just you know you're you [TS]

00:14:57   rephrase that's like you said with the [TS]

00:14:59   possessive don't kill yourself like if [TS]

00:15:01   it's not working here it seems awkward [TS]

00:15:02   to you just just rearrange it phrase it [TS]

00:15:04   differently do these two sentences [TS]

00:15:05   whatever so I I do like the singular I [TS]

00:15:07   recognize that British use the plural it [TS]

00:15:10   really it's kind of arbitrary and you [TS]

00:15:12   just go with what it that's another case [TS]

00:15:13   where I think it's pretty clear-cut [TS]

00:15:14   where every American publication and [TS]

00:15:16   style guide says this is the American [TS]

00:15:18   Way and the British it's like color and [TS]

00:15:20   color with the O you and not the O you [TS]

00:15:22   is there's some clear divisions between [TS]

00:15:24   British and American so what I was [TS]

00:15:26   getting at would be with the this [TS]

00:15:29   possibly s thing is one people are just [TS]

00:15:31   they're just crazy about a huge amount [TS]

00:15:33   of feedback very sure of them [TS]

00:15:35   and it kind of amazes me that people who [TS]

00:15:38   are so sure of themselves like they [TS]

00:15:39   don't feel I need to support it like [TS]

00:15:41   it's just they don't say it's because of [TS]

00:15:45   how I was taught or I work for [TS]

00:15:48   publication X and publication X uses the [TS]

00:15:49   style guide but like it's just kind of [TS]

00:15:51   like a universal blanket statement I [TS]

00:15:52   think a lot of people get into that I [TS]

00:15:54   don't know I don't want to speculate why [TS]

00:15:56   they get into that but I imagine it's [TS]

00:15:58   because they're taught a certain thing [TS]

00:16:01   by teacher who is very enthusiastic [TS]

00:16:03   about being a certain way and they [TS]

00:16:04   respect that teacher and learn a lot [TS]

00:16:07   from them and they become sort of a [TS]

00:16:08   disciple of whatever that teacher said [TS]

00:16:10   and then like the support for doesn't [TS]

00:16:12   make that much of a difference and again [TS]

00:16:14   getting back to that you know stakes are [TS]

00:16:16   so low thing the people would just get [TS]

00:16:17   worked up about the stuff because the [TS]

00:16:19   you know it's a trivial issue and you [TS]

00:16:20   know I obviously from the show called [TS]

00:16:22   hypercritical I'm on board with that [TS]

00:16:24   because I do that about lots of things [TS]

00:16:26   so style guys Chicago Manual Strunk and [TS]

00:16:29   white in England apparently this thing [TS]

00:16:31   called Fowler's modern English used to [TS]

00:16:33   did some googling for style guides does [TS]

00:16:35   the AP style manual then is like more [TS]

00:16:37   esoteric ones like the American Medical [TS]

00:16:38   Association has a style guide for their [TS]

00:16:40   papers and you know getting getting on [TS]

00:16:42   down to individual companies can have [TS]

00:16:45   style guides uh [TS]

00:16:46   so I did a little survey of like the [TS]

00:16:48   general purpose style guides and the [TS]

00:16:52   Chicago Manual style Strunk and whites [TS]

00:16:54   elements of style and Fowler's modern [TS]

00:16:56   English usage all say add apostrophe s [TS]

00:16:58   to the end of jobs yeah and the AP [TS]

00:17:00   Manual style says no apostrophe s and [TS]

00:17:02   there was a big Wikipedia thread but [TS]

00:17:05   technically I should be adding it if I'm [TS]

00:17:07   if I'm Welles I'm a fan of shrunken [TS]

00:17:10   one-star uh not sprung well Strunk and [TS]

00:17:12   white has always been like that Chicago [TS]

00:17:13   Manual flip-flopped on it recently and [TS]

00:17:15   like in the most recent edition of [TS]

00:17:17   Chicago Manual I think they used to say [TS]

00:17:19   you could do it both ways or used to say [TS]

00:17:22   you should just put the apostrophe where [TS]

00:17:23   they change their mind so maybe when you [TS]

00:17:25   learned it it was actually the other way [TS]

00:17:26   with the Chicago Manual but now they say [TS]

00:17:28   apostrophe s uh and the AP manual like I [TS]

00:17:32   saw this in the Wikipedia thread they [TS]

00:17:33   were it was a Wikipedia thread [TS]

00:17:34   discussing what should be the Wikipedia [TS]

00:17:36   style guide or is it even possible to [TS]

00:17:37   have a Wikipedia style guide because so [TS]

00:17:39   many people contribute and stuff and [TS]

00:17:40   this is big debate and people citing two [TS]

00:17:42   different style guides is saying well [TS]

00:17:44   these people say this and these people [TS]

00:17:45   say that so on and so forth and one of [TS]

00:17:47   the people [TS]

00:17:48   speculated that I don't know if it's [TS]

00:17:50   speculation but I can't I couldn't cite [TS]

00:17:52   it you know KP style guide always [TS]

00:17:54   prefers the shorter version because it's [TS]

00:17:58   a really old style guide back from the [TS]

00:18:00   days when you had like a wire [TS]

00:18:01   communication other things that like [TS]

00:18:03   charge by the letter or whatever and so [TS]

00:18:05   a lot of The Associated Press thing and [TS]

00:18:07   you know you had column space and you [TS]

00:18:09   didn't want to have long lines and you [TS]

00:18:10   wanted to fit your content in so if [TS]

00:18:12   there was ever a choice between one [TS]

00:18:14   style that use fewer characters than the [TS]

00:18:15   other of course pick the shorter one [TS]

00:18:16   which is kind of a different motivation [TS]

00:18:18   but the same thing as you were saying [TS]

00:18:19   where it's like a a minimalism type of [TS]

00:18:22   thing omit needless words don't don't [TS]

00:18:24   make things big widen flowery and if [TS]

00:18:26   there's a shorter way to do it use a [TS]

00:18:27   shorter way but my personal I feel I [TS]

00:18:31   feel vindicated in my personal [TS]

00:18:32   preference that the Chicago Manual [TS]

00:18:34   Strunk and white and even the British [TS]

00:18:36   Valerie's modern English usage shawl [TS]

00:18:38   which are like the some of the top like [TS]

00:18:41   general-purpose style guides all agree [TS]

00:18:43   that you should add apostrophe s and [TS]

00:18:44   some of them have exceptions for like [TS]

00:18:46   Jesus and Moses which was the things I [TS]

00:18:47   brought up before and sure yeah I'm [TS]

00:18:49   after I'm after switch and you're [TS]

00:18:51   there's a compelling argument the first [TS]

00:18:52   but first time it really is an arbitrary [TS]

00:18:55   though like it's you all you need to do [TS]

00:18:57   is to decide what style guide you're [TS]

00:18:59   writing to and stick to it and you want [TS]

00:19:01   to make up your own style god it's a [TS]

00:19:02   blend of these just you know document in [TS]

00:19:04   its the consistency is more important [TS]

00:19:06   than the individual thing but I will say [TS]

00:19:07   to all the people who are just so sure [TS]

00:19:09   that whichever way they said is [TS]

00:19:10   absolutely right both the people who [TS]

00:19:11   agreed with me and who didn't agree with [TS]

00:19:12   me that anytime you're doing that with [TS]

00:19:16   even with things do you think are open [TS]

00:19:18   and shut grammar cases be you know look [TS]

00:19:21   it up see why why is this why do I think [TS]

00:19:24   this is it just because what I was [TS]

00:19:25   taught what how long ago is I taught [TS]

00:19:27   that where was my teacher getting that [TS]

00:19:28   information you know what I mean uh so [TS]

00:19:30   you're saying you're saying you're okay [TS]

00:19:31   however people want to do it as long as [TS]

00:19:34   they understand that they have made a [TS]

00:19:38   decision and it is not a issue of being [TS]

00:19:40   correct or incorrect that is simply a [TS]

00:19:42   preference and style preference for them [TS]

00:19:44   but see I hate the word style Dobies [TS]

00:19:46   when I think of style I think of it as [TS]

00:19:47   like not using passive voice or a [TS]

00:19:49   passive voice is grammatically correct [TS]

00:19:50   but it's a style issue if you don't want [TS]

00:19:52   to use it like I don't want to sound [TS]

00:19:53   that way because it's it's not it [TS]

00:19:55   doesn't change the content but it [TS]

00:19:56   changes like the feeling of it you know [TS]

00:19:58   I mean sure versus stuff like where does [TS]

00:20:01   the punctuation go in [TS]

00:20:02   which I guess I mean that all falls [TS]

00:20:05   under a style guy but when I think of [TS]

00:20:06   style I think more of like the you know [TS]

00:20:08   two equally valid things which one reads [TS]

00:20:11   better versus like a style God's going [TS]

00:20:14   to say punctuation goes inside and you [TS]

00:20:16   don't you don't get to pick that based [TS]

00:20:17   on what like how you want them to read [TS]

00:20:19   this and what kind of message you want [TS]

00:20:20   to send it's just like this is the rule [TS]

00:20:21   right but they're all they're all [TS]

00:20:22   encompassing a star guide so it's an [TS]

00:20:23   overloaded word with style but I very [TS]

00:20:25   strongly prefer the the apostrophe s and [TS]

00:20:28   I don't like it when people use toggles [TS]

00:20:30   don't do it for example Ars Technica [TS]

00:20:31   takes a lot of stuff from the AP style [TS]

00:20:33   guide much of which i despise and every [TS]

00:20:36   time it comes up like i can argue with [TS]

00:20:37   them for they say look this is this is [TS]

00:20:38   the our style guide so i don't care how [TS]

00:20:40   you write it or what you do it's going [TS]

00:20:42   to conform to the our style guide this [TS]

00:20:44   is more important for all the stuff on [TS]

00:20:45   ours to be uniform than it is for them [TS]

00:20:48   to but I will still argue with them that [TS]

00:20:49   yeah well that bit that decision you've [TS]

00:20:51   made and choosing the our style guide is [TS]

00:20:53   dumb and it should be the other way [TS]

00:20:55   because I have very strong preferences [TS]

00:20:57   on this issue but I totally recognize [TS]

00:20:59   that even the style guides can't agree [TS]

00:21:02   on it and the end of hours the old [TS]

00:21:05   majority rules like most of the style [TS]

00:21:06   guides I found on you you know you just [TS]

00:21:08   keep stacking up style guides on either [TS]

00:21:09   side until you feel satisfied that one [TS]

00:21:11   party is won or not you know and you [TS]

00:21:13   could also come back and say hey you [TS]

00:21:14   know why why is the style guide that [TS]

00:21:16   came out last year better than the one [TS]

00:21:19   that came out this year and ya know it's [TS]

00:21:21   yeah what you know do you use the most [TS]

00:21:23   up they will never uh maybe there's [TS]

00:21:25   reason not to I guarantee you know some [TS]

00:21:27   people like an older style for some [TS]

00:21:29   reason well I well we what we were [TS]

00:21:31   talking about this the one of the the [TS]

00:21:33   fans Scott Williams uh who's obviously [TS]

00:21:37   got the asset and he said he prefers the [TS]

00:21:40   apostrophe s you know I'm gonna go out [TS]

00:21:42   on a limb and say I bet most of the [TS]

00:21:44   people uh who's you know who are [TS]

00:21:48   unfortunate enough to have a name that [TS]

00:21:49   ends with an S and have to deal with [TS]

00:21:52   this problem there I bet you all of them [TS]

00:21:53   add the apostrophe s we don't need to [TS]

00:21:55   hear about it I'm but I'm sure I'm [TS]

00:21:57   speaking for them I don't know I bet but [TS]

00:22:00   you you should what you should take from [TS]

00:22:01   this is a you know I know I'm an English [TS]

00:22:04   major eh that's appeal to authority and [TS]

00:22:06   doesn't add anything to your argument B [TS]

00:22:07   see how polite I am NOT the correct him [TS]

00:22:09   on the show correctly that's the whole [TS]

00:22:11   point [TS]

00:22:11   yeah I'd like that you know your your [TS]

00:22:13   show tersh I know but you're you're part [TS]

00:22:15   of it too you should participate as [TS]

00:22:17   I participate I'd like to you know I [TS]

00:22:19   don't your it's all about your theory [TS]

00:22:21   I'm not gonna stomp on your alright and [TS]

00:22:23   and part see uh don't be so sure that [TS]

00:22:27   you know you have a sod correction to [TS]

00:22:29   make because in this case as you said [TS]

00:22:31   you know you thought it should always be [TS]

00:22:32   as a pot cores now now I've shaken I've [TS]

00:22:35   shaken your faith in the S ' I said I [TS]

00:22:37   said I might consider switching but I [TS]

00:22:39   still believe that the D the correct way [TS]

00:22:42   to do it would be the the way that [TS]

00:22:44   involves the least typing huh why why [TS]

00:22:47   add characters if you can convey the [TS]

00:22:49   same meaning with fewer characters [TS]

00:22:50   alright so getting get to another [TS]

00:22:51   trivial thing I had this in the last [TS]

00:22:53   show didn't didn't get to it [TS]

00:22:55   the great 5x5 Illustrated site yes that [TS]

00:22:58   there was an illustration for episode [TS]

00:23:00   number 45 what was the name of that [TS]

00:23:03   episode it was Star Wars is not a blog [TS]

00:23:05   post yes and the illustration for that [TS]

00:23:08   shows a hand-drawn picture of a web [TS]

00:23:11   browser looks like Safari and it in the [TS]

00:23:14   web browser is my tumblr brah blog which [TS]

00:23:18   I very rarely uh played oh I do have a [TS]

00:23:20   post that I want to put up there at some [TS]

00:23:22   point it's like my personal non-apple [TS]

00:23:24   related blog thing right it's called [TS]

00:23:26   hyper critical that blog actually [TS]

00:23:28   existed before the show and it's on one [TS]

00:23:31   of the other incarnations of this name [TS]

00:23:32   and the the the URL is Syracuse a tumblr [TS]

00:23:37   calm slash search slash Star Plus Wars [TS]

00:23:40   plus for the space and the thing the [TS]

00:23:43   text on the page says terribly sorry a [TS]

00:23:45   total of zero results for Star Wars and [TS]

00:23:49   results is written result and then the s [TS]

00:23:52   and apostrophe in that posture abs in [TS]

00:23:55   parentheses so it's re su LT open parens [TS]

00:23:59   s closed parens right and I looked at [TS]

00:24:01   that and I said oh you know I hate it [TS]

00:24:03   when when things do that I bet that's [TS]

00:24:05   not how the real site looks I went to [TS]

00:24:06   tumblr and did a search for Star Wars [TS]

00:24:08   and sure enough like that's brick you [TS]

00:24:09   know when you do a search for Star Wars [TS]

00:24:10   that is the actual URL slash search [TS]

00:24:12   slash you know Star Plus Wars and the [TS]

00:24:14   text on the page says exactly that [TS]

00:24:16   terribly sorry a total of zero results [TS]

00:24:18   in parentheses right for Star Wars this [TS]

00:24:22   drives me nuts as a programmer because [TS]

00:24:24   as anyone has ever done any web program [TS]

00:24:26   you come across this exact situation all [TS]

00:24:28   the time where the [TS]

00:24:30   going to be so a number of things and [TS]

00:24:31   you're going to stick the number in a [TS]

00:24:32   sentence that in English you have to [TS]

00:24:33   figure out whether that's number number [TS]

00:24:35   is plural or not and the super lazy [TS]

00:24:38   programmer way is like well I just want [TS]

00:24:40   to have one word so I'm going to result [TS]

00:24:42   then I'll put the s in parenthesis and [TS]

00:24:43   it shows that it's kind of optional [TS]

00:24:45   because it's my pseudo programmer [TS]

00:24:46   application of you know it takes like [TS]

00:24:49   you know the Turner operator is not it's [TS]

00:24:53   not going to take all day to just do one [TS]

00:24:54   little thing in there and say if you [TS]

00:24:56   know if it's one don't put the S [TS]

00:24:58   otherwise put the s right and yes [TS]

00:25:00   localization makes this harder but you [TS]

00:25:02   can have to deal with much harder issues [TS]

00:25:04   in localization you know anyway tough [TS]

00:25:06   luck but especially if it's like English [TS]

00:25:08   only you know don't do that programmers [TS]

00:25:12   out there take the three seconds to put [TS]

00:25:15   a little conditional in there to write [TS]

00:25:17   the correct word it's just that shows [TS]

00:25:20   like I don't always like that pick on [TS]

00:25:24   things that show a lack of attention to [TS]

00:25:25   detail the person who program this [TS]

00:25:27   didn't care about you know because it's [TS]

00:25:29   not rocket science it's not like they're [TS]

00:25:30   saying I wish I knew how to figure out [TS]

00:25:32   whether this was plural or not people [TS]

00:25:34   know how to do it right they just didn't [TS]

00:25:36   want to it's just easier for them to [TS]

00:25:37   just put the string with the number [TS]

00:25:39   right in it so I would like to to [TS]

00:25:42   publicly shame all programmers who do [TS]

00:25:44   this and if you find yourself in the [TS]

00:25:45   situation think of my voice in your head [TS]

00:25:47   saying take the two seconds make a macro [TS]

00:25:50   throw that Turner upper in there or you [TS]

00:25:54   know if you're using localization it [TS]

00:25:55   should really handle this for you you [TS]

00:25:58   should be able to put a number and then [TS]

00:25:59   the the thing and have it have you have [TS]

00:26:01   your localization system whatever that [TS]

00:26:02   may be figure out the correct way to [TS]

00:26:04   phrase all right so moving on to the [TS]

00:26:10   next topic which is the thing with [TS]

00:26:13   vicious and bitter a feedback with very [TS]

00:26:16   low stakes let's let's do our first spot [TS]

00:26:19   there that's a good idea we get it you [TS]

00:26:21   need to take a break to you know rest [TS]

00:26:24   anyway we'll do the fun one first not [TS]

00:26:27   that the second sponsor isn't fun also [TS]

00:26:30   but it's uncle slam from hand labra [TS]

00:26:33   so these guys they've sponsored before [TS]

00:26:34   they have this reminder game minder [TS]

00:26:37   thing that the Jon Circus is such a fan [TS]

00:26:39   oven this time they said listen Dan and [TS]

00:26:42   you know it's a holiday season we [TS]

00:26:43   realized [TS]

00:26:44   a lot of the shows that you do aren't [TS]

00:26:45   necessarily gaming oriented you do talk [TS]

00:26:47   about gaming on the show with with John [TS]

00:26:50   siracusa so for sure mention it on that [TS]

00:26:53   one it's alright what is this you're [TS]

00:26:54   talking about this is listen this is [TS]

00:26:56   uncle slam this is a new boxing game it [TS]

00:26:59   just launched you basically you play as [TS]

00:27:01   the presidents of the United States not [TS]

00:27:03   the band but the the men and it [TS]

00:27:08   basically it's a boxing game and you [TS]

00:27:10   punch presidents now the single local [TS]

00:27:14   multiplayer mode so you can play on your [TS]

00:27:16   own you play with a friend and it used [TS]

00:27:18   physics-based punching and real touch [TS]

00:27:20   based jet real controls it's not the [TS]

00:27:23   little virtual controller on the screen [TS]

00:27:24   kind of thing and they believe very [TS]

00:27:26   strongly that you should meld usefulness [TS]

00:27:30   and fun so that all the locations in the [TS]

00:27:32   game they're based on real places in [TS]

00:27:33   America so you can actually learn about [TS]

00:27:35   presidential history in the Hall of [TS]

00:27:37   Presidents so the game launched about a [TS]

00:27:39   week ago it has nine playable presidents [TS]

00:27:42   for iPad in the coming months they're [TS]

00:27:44   going to be adding more presidents you [TS]

00:27:46   can buy them with in-app purchases [TS]

00:27:47   they're going to have a universal [TS]

00:27:48   version will play everywhere else so [TS]

00:27:50   even even John circus will be able to [TS]

00:27:52   play it on his iPod touch so how do you [TS]

00:27:54   find out about this you go follow the [TS]

00:27:56   link that's in the show notes or you go [TS]

00:27:57   to iTunes and do a search for uncle slam [TS]

00:28:00   and you will find it so thanks very much [TS]

00:28:03   to handle Habra but lucky they don't get [TS]

00:28:07   caught up in that no political the [TS]

00:28:09   application policy thing I guess since [TS]

00:28:11   this is a game it is it is a game that's [TS]

00:28:13   true it is a game so this doesn't defame [TS]

00:28:16   the presidents I don't yeah I don't [TS]

00:28:20   think that they are different is [TS]

00:28:22   punching a president defaming them I [TS]

00:28:24   don't know [TS]

00:28:25   Apple is a capricious beast mm-hmm I [TS]

00:28:28   don't know bite while you can [TS]

00:28:30   yeah different really I just got that up [TS]

00:28:34   I'm aim did you get that oh no that's [TS]

00:28:38   great though how do you get the games [TS]

00:28:40   for it I haven't gotten that far yet but [TS]

00:28:42   like someone posted up I'm aim is up [TS]

00:28:44   grab all you can on looking at okay I'll [TS]

00:28:46   put this I'll put this initial I this is [TS]

00:28:49   the one by Jim Van Deventer I assume so [TS]

00:28:52   how many other apps could there be cold [TS]

00:28:54   I mean does it have a big red joystick [TS]

00:28:56   in for gettin so guess [TS]

00:28:57   I will put this in the show notes by the [TS]

00:28:58   way our show notes are brought to you by [TS]

00:29:00   the amazing people over it help help [TS]

00:29:03   spot.com best help this self wherever [TS]

00:29:06   yeah so I haven't got to the point where [TS]

00:29:08   I start adding roms and stuff but how do [TS]

00:29:11   you add proms I'm sure there's some way [TS]

00:29:14   to like it maybe add just like you had a [TS]

00:29:15   like a PDF to you know a 3/3 PDF yeah [TS]

00:29:18   it's free I'm sure it will be yanked by [TS]

00:29:20   Apple soon so grab all you can I got the [TS]

00:29:24   NES emulator back when that was on the [TS]

00:29:26   store for like 15 minutes before [TS]

00:29:28   athleanx this has been up for days [TS]

00:29:30   though so maybe they're not going to [TS]

00:29:31   yank it it doesn't come with any ROM [TS]

00:29:35   side we see so I don't maybe maybe it is [TS]

00:29:36   a case where they're they're going to [TS]

00:29:38   allow it although it seems like [TS]

00:29:39   something that's an emulator anyway [TS]

00:29:40   grabbed by MAME if you can so the other [TS]

00:29:42   topic that had low stakes but lots of [TS]

00:29:44   feedback was talking about john Gruber's [TS]

00:29:47   appearance on the verge and talking [TS]

00:29:49   about bias in tech journalism and his [TS]

00:29:51   possible bias in particular and [TS]

00:29:53   partisanship and all that business which [TS]

00:29:55   was the kind of the bulk of the last [TS]

00:29:57   show a lot of feedback on that some some [TS]

00:30:00   people had an axe to grind but most of [TS]

00:30:02   the feedback was really good where it [TS]

00:30:03   was like people people they're the [TS]

00:30:06   listeners of the show good about [TS]

00:30:07   responding to what was actually [TS]

00:30:09   discussed in the show and not going off [TS]

00:30:11   on their own independent rant about [TS]

00:30:13   tangentially related to the topic right [TS]

00:30:16   so here are a few examples a lot of [TS]

00:30:19   people brought up good points that I [TS]

00:30:20   wish I had addressed on on last show and [TS]

00:30:22   I will try to address in that Steve Barr [TS]

00:30:24   writes I'm just reading like snippets of [TS]

00:30:27   these people's things so they wrote lots [TS]

00:30:28   of stuff I'm trying to get to like the [TS]

00:30:30   one point that I think is most important [TS]

00:30:32   so Steve Barr says one can't read airing [TS]

00:30:35   fireball alone to get an accurate view [TS]

00:30:36   accurate view of the consumer smartphone [TS]

00:30:38   slash desktop market and I think that's [TS]

00:30:40   true that's something I wish I had [TS]

00:30:42   talked about in my show when people if [TS]

00:30:46   people want to read something and feel [TS]

00:30:48   like they're getting just like they're [TS]

00:30:52   getting all sides of the issue reading a [TS]

00:30:54   blog written by a single person with a [TS]

00:30:56   single voice is not going to give you [TS]

00:30:57   that because it you know at its best I [TS]

00:31:01   think this was in from Gruber and [TS]

00:31:02   Merlin's talk at South by Southwest [TS]

00:31:04   years ago or I don't even know if they [TS]

00:31:06   originated but a blogging is like [TS]

00:31:08   passion plus voice and so Derek fireball [TS]

00:31:11   has a person quest passion he speaks [TS]

00:31:13   with one voice if he tried to give you [TS]

00:31:16   all sides of the issue it would it would [TS]

00:31:19   not be the same experience not that [TS]

00:31:20   would be worse or better or anything but [TS]

00:31:21   it would not be the same and that gets [TS]

00:31:23   to the j-word we're gonna like all your [TS]

00:31:25   are you a journalist here you're not [TS]

00:31:27   being a journalist or journalists need [TS]

00:31:28   to be objective and journalist should be [TS]

00:31:30   partisan [TS]

00:31:30   I've always been repelled by the j-word [TS]

00:31:35   I didn't go to journalism school I don't [TS]

00:31:36   feel qualified to call myself a [TS]

00:31:38   journalist nor do I want to be a [TS]

00:31:39   journalist because when I think of [TS]

00:31:41   journalists I think of someone who maybe [TS]

00:31:42   this is another reason I don't use the [TS]

00:31:44   word is maybe my definition is totally [TS]

00:31:45   wrong but when I think of it I think of [TS]

00:31:47   somebody who is trying to give all sides [TS]

00:31:50   of the story and find find out as much [TS]

00:31:53   as possible about something and yes do [TS]

00:31:55   all the fact-checking and stuff you want [TS]

00:31:56   to do but they're they're not inserting [TS]

00:31:58   their own voice their voice is not the [TS]

00:32:01   primary thing they're they're not like [TS]

00:32:03   is it different being an opinion column [TS]

00:32:04   in the news page and that's when I think [TS]

00:32:06   of journalism that's what I think of now [TS]

00:32:08   you can have an example like a big site [TS]

00:32:10   like The Verge or I don't even ours [TS]

00:32:13   tactic or anything like that where in [TS]

00:32:14   aggregate the site together tries to [TS]

00:32:18   give a big view of the world like for [TS]

00:32:19   example our stock maker has people [TS]

00:32:20   writing about this exclusively writing [TS]

00:32:22   about windows and writing about you know [TS]

00:32:23   Android and writing about open-source [TS]

00:32:25   and Apple you know so an individual [TS]

00:32:27   person writing for the Apple section can [TS]

00:32:30   be focusing on Apple and not talking [TS]

00:32:33   about other things but the individual [TS]

00:32:34   person writing for the Microsoft section [TS]

00:32:36   is focusing on Microsoft and so as a [TS]

00:32:37   whole the publication is you know is it [TS]

00:32:40   as a journalistic endeavor right and [TS]

00:32:42   they try to distinctions between simple [TS]

00:32:44   straight news reporting and you know [TS]

00:32:46   opinion and editorials [TS]

00:32:47   and there's always a problem of like [TS]

00:32:49   well where do you draw that line and how [TS]

00:32:50   do you how do you make it clear to the [TS]

00:32:52   reader is this an editorial or not and [TS]

00:32:54   people get confused they get angry about [TS]

00:32:56   it but that's that's different than a [TS]

00:32:57   blog with even if maybe two people but [TS]

00:33:00   one or two people but certainly [TS]

00:33:01   something with just one person with one [TS]

00:33:03   voice that's you know the blogging that [TS]

00:33:07   the daring fireball wants to be and that [TS]

00:33:10   a lot of people do is it's one person [TS]

00:33:12   speaking with a singular voice and that [TS]

00:33:13   necessarily will not give you that you [TS]

00:33:16   know all sides of an issue right even [TS]

00:33:20   even if he tries to do all the research [TS]

00:33:21   and present all the information he's [TS]

00:33:24   necessarily [TS]

00:33:25   going to have one view and I think it [TS]

00:33:26   would make the site less interesting and [TS]

00:33:28   certainly less entertaining were key to [TS]

00:33:33   edit himself to try to say even though I [TS]

00:33:36   strongly feel this way about this thing [TS]

00:33:37   I don't want to you know I don't want to [TS]

00:33:41   put too much in my opinion that's not [TS]

00:33:42   what it's about it's entirely about his [TS]

00:33:43   opinion this is you know this is daring [TS]

00:33:45   fireball this is John Gruber this is not [TS]

00:33:47   a paper and I don't know if he considers [TS]

00:33:50   himself a journalist but all and all my [TS]

00:33:52   writing even though I write these big [TS]

00:33:53   reviews Mac os10 and stuff I don't [TS]

00:33:55   consider that a journalistic endeavor I [TS]

00:33:56   consider everything I write to be like [TS]

00:33:58   an editorial or an opinion column a [TS]

00:34:00   supported opinion and maybe an informed [TS]

00:34:04   formed opinion I will defend my opinion [TS]

00:34:06   with facts but it's nevertheless it's me [TS]

00:34:08   I haven't I'm not ever writing anything [TS]

00:34:10   to say this is what Ars Technica thinks [TS]

00:34:12   of Mac os10 no it's this is what I think [TS]

00:34:14   of that ghost and if someone else who [TS]

00:34:15   writes for our stock now wants to say [TS]

00:34:16   something else about Mac OS then they [TS]

00:34:17   can feel free you know what I mean so [TS]

00:34:20   that was a Steve Barr David Cheney [TS]

00:34:23   longtime listener and contributor was [TS]

00:34:28   fretting over partisanship and other [TS]

00:34:32   issues we talked a little bit about the [TS]

00:34:33   Senate in the chat room then he wrote [TS]

00:34:34   some emails one of the things he brought [TS]

00:34:36   up was when Apple is an underdog and [TS]

00:34:38   mainstream opinion of the company was [TS]

00:34:40   low I think was appropriate for him [TS]

00:34:41   meaning John Gruber to skewer trollish [TS]

00:34:44   pieces of the kind that John C Dvorak [TS]

00:34:45   peddled less those opinions become [TS]

00:34:47   accepted wisdom now that Apple has [TS]

00:34:50   become so big such articles are just [TS]

00:34:52   like little gnats buzzing around trying [TS]

00:34:53   to get attention there's enough general [TS]

00:34:54   awareness of Apple's good qualities they [TS]

00:34:56   really don't deserve the time of day and [TS]

00:34:57   they aren't going to have any effect [TS]

00:34:58   than I think so [TS]

00:34:59   this is a good point of like the [TS]

00:35:02   environment in which daring firewall was [TS]

00:35:03   born versus the environment now when [TS]

00:35:05   Apple is the underdog people seem more [TS]

00:35:07   accepting of vociferous defense of the [TS]

00:35:12   little guy but now that they are so much [TS]

00:35:14   bigger and so much more successful who [TS]

00:35:16   wouldn't say well it's not you know the [TS]

00:35:18   same thing you did back then doesn't [TS]

00:35:20   seem appropriate now you know why chase [TS]

00:35:24   down those people who are saying silly [TS]

00:35:26   bogus things about Apple why not just [TS]

00:35:28   ignore them because you know get you [TS]

00:35:29   know you know I mean and I feel that [TS]

00:35:31   some play sometimes to like the Mac [TS]

00:35:32   elope and John Gruber both enjoy finding [TS]

00:35:35   people who say things about [TS]

00:35:39   Appl that are just clearly at odds with [TS]

00:35:43   with reality or with the opinion of the [TS]

00:35:46   people writing and they just love [TS]

00:35:47   skewering them and and showing how wrong [TS]

00:35:50   they are and this is a really popular [TS]

00:35:52   thing to do back when the Mac was just [TS]

00:35:55   on the ropes you know late 90s Apple was [TS]

00:35:58   on the ropes people were not using [TS]

00:36:01   maxford constantly making fun of Apple [TS]

00:36:03   and so those of us who were still fans [TS]

00:36:06   of the computer just felt the need to [TS]

00:36:08   just SWAT down all these attacks and [TS]

00:36:10   that habit can be hard to get out of and [TS]

00:36:12   it ended still is entertaining to a lot [TS]

00:36:14   of people including probably the people [TS]

00:36:16   doing it I mean you know the Mac elope [TS]

00:36:19   is a fairly recent creation of the only [TS]

00:36:21   a couple years old or whatever oh who is [TS]

00:36:23   that say you right between that nobody [TS]

00:36:25   knows with Mac well bit except for the [TS]

00:36:27   bit except for the people who know I [TS]

00:36:29   have no comment under the Mac Lopez so [TS]

00:36:33   you know I have no comment until the [TS]

00:36:35   mangu of this but you do know if I have [TS]

00:36:39   no comment [TS]

00:36:40   we'll talk out of that off there so [TS]

00:36:46   people obviously like that kind of thing [TS]

00:36:48   but it does seem like less sporting [TS]

00:36:50   people who are willing to entertain that [TS]

00:36:52   type of stuff it becomes distasteful to [TS]

00:36:56   them when the situation has changed [TS]

00:36:59   Bobby Seale is still big audience for uh [TS]

00:37:03   and and there is there is still there's [TS]

00:37:08   still work to be done there visit for [TS]

00:37:09   example despite Apple's great success [TS]

00:37:12   you still constantly see the prediction [TS]

00:37:14   that Android will be the windows 2 to [TS]

00:37:17   iOS right just as Windows was the [TS]

00:37:19   creditor product but was you know spread [TS]

00:37:22   out farther and had bigger market share [TS]

00:37:23   and Android will have bigger market [TS]

00:37:25   share and even though iOS is technically [TS]

00:37:26   better uh it will still get pushed down [TS]

00:37:30   to some little niche by Android and you [TS]

00:37:34   see that sentiment like as if it's a [TS]

00:37:36   foregone conclusion everywhere so even [TS]

00:37:37   though Apple is still you know much [TS]

00:37:40   bigger than it used to be and much more [TS]

00:37:41   successful I think it's fair I think I [TS]

00:37:46   think it's still just you know [TS]

00:37:48   completely fair to [TS]

00:37:50   attack the people making that prediction [TS]

00:37:52   with the facts and say look it's the [TS]

00:37:54   situation is different this time I [TS]

00:37:55   myself over in an arc like this and it's [TS]

00:37:57   not it's not the same I know we all want [TS]

00:37:58   to think that the history tell history [TS]

00:38:00   tells us exactly how you know the future [TS]

00:38:01   is going to go but the situations are [TS]

00:38:03   different in some important ways and so [TS]

00:38:05   if people you know people write those [TS]

00:38:08   articles about Android inevitably [TS]

00:38:11   winning because of X Y & Z you know I [TS]

00:38:12   think the other side of that issue is [TS]

00:38:14   also worth airing and obviously Grouper [TS]

00:38:16   has one opinion on this and he's going [TS]

00:38:17   to write about he's not going to write [TS]

00:38:21   about something that he doesn't believe [TS]

00:38:22   in he's going to write what he believes [TS]

00:38:23   and supported with his many faxes again [TS]

00:38:27   this is from frank chai cheery he gave [TS]

00:38:32   me a pronunciation he said chai like tea [TS]

00:38:34   and then the word cheery love it good [TS]

00:38:36   job Frank and he was talking about [TS]

00:38:39   partisanship and some of his experiences [TS]

00:38:42   of this and he says that Charlie Peter [TS]

00:38:44   is the legendary editor of Washington [TS]

00:38:45   Monthly used to tell his writers play [TS]

00:38:47   Notre Dame in their articles what he [TS]

00:38:49   meant was that you should always take [TS]

00:38:50   your opponent's best arguments don't [TS]

00:38:52   play a half-baked Tech College play [TS]

00:38:53   Notre Dame take on the big boys he'll be [TS]

00:38:56   a stronger writer writer for it I think [TS]

00:38:58   this is great advice to anybody you know [TS]

00:39:00   money's basically saying is if you're [TS]

00:39:02   going to be if you're going to support [TS]

00:39:04   your position to have it to have the [TS]

00:39:08   most convincing to be the most [TS]

00:39:10   convincing with your with your position [TS]

00:39:12   obviously they don't do straw man which [TS]

00:39:14   is vision that nobody is taking and [TS]

00:39:15   knock them down but also like find out [TS]

00:39:17   the strongest arguments from the other [TS]

00:39:19   side and take those on to show that you [TS]

00:39:21   are acknowledging and have an answer for [TS]

00:39:24   the very strongest arguments of your [TS]

00:39:26   opposition this goes back to you know [TS]

00:39:27   what I'm saying about the advantages of [TS]

00:39:29   listening to partisans right who-who are [TS]

00:39:31   starting from particular premise and it [TS]

00:39:34   can never be shaken from it but you know [TS]

00:39:35   and I don't think that's a great thing [TS]

00:39:37   to be but they will seek out the best [TS]

00:39:40   arguments for their position and so [TS]

00:39:42   those are the ones that you should take [TS]

00:39:43   on because presumably they're they're [TS]

00:39:44   spending all their time trying to find [TS]

00:39:46   that anything and everything they can [TS]

00:39:47   the strongest possible arguments for [TS]

00:39:48   their position from which they're never [TS]

00:39:49   going to waver and so the the played [TS]

00:39:52   Notre Dame thing is good a good thing to [TS]

00:39:54   keep in mind and also a lots of people [TS]

00:39:56   have different definitions of partisan I [TS]

00:39:58   do I tried to preface the the plas [TS]

00:40:00   section about partisans by read the [TS]

00:40:01   dictionary definitions none of which [TS]

00:40:02   exactly agree with mine [TS]

00:40:03   it's just getting into semantics like we [TS]

00:40:05   all as long as we can all agree on what [TS]

00:40:06   we're talking about I was saying it's [TS]

00:40:09   the person who will who no fact will [TS]

00:40:11   change their opinion they have their [TS]

00:40:12   premise and they are never going to [TS]

00:40:14   reevaluate that premise based on the [TS]

00:40:16   changing facts no matter how they change [TS]

00:40:17   they'll until the day they die they will [TS]

00:40:19   always be a supporter of X and that's [TS]

00:40:21   the type of partisan I said I didn't [TS]

00:40:23   like that that's that's my idea of [TS]

00:40:24   partisanship other people saying [TS]

00:40:25   partisan is just what I was saying about [TS]

00:40:27   having passion horse now from the Gruber [TS]

00:40:30   Merlin Mann thing that I don't consider [TS]

00:40:32   parson shit but that's just semantics [TS]

00:40:34   it's just you know what word do we use [TS]

00:40:36   to label the bad thing and the good [TS]

00:40:38   thing so I don't think there's any [TS]

00:40:40   barrier to us to people discussing this [TS]

00:40:43   issue as long as we all know what we're [TS]

00:40:44   talking about when we say a particular [TS]

00:40:45   word so maybe an individual word is not [TS]

00:40:48   I don't like the fanboy label I like [TS]

00:40:51   partisan but obviously partisan people [TS]

00:40:52   have different definitions they use for [TS]

00:40:54   that do so if you're arguing with [TS]

00:40:55   somebody about this material agreeing on [TS]

00:40:57   your definitions otherwise you'll just [TS]

00:40:58   go in circles and it will not get [TS]

00:40:59   anywhere and I bring that up because [TS]

00:41:02   Frank uses the term hack to [TS]

00:41:05   differentiate between the honest [TS]

00:41:06   partisan and you know a dishonest one [TS]

00:41:12   one extra point in here is like the idea [TS]

00:41:15   that you are seeking out the best [TS]

00:41:16   arguments against and taking them on you [TS]

00:41:18   got to be careful with that because if [TS]

00:41:20   you're if you're not careful you'll [TS]

00:41:24   start to that concept starts to include [TS]

00:41:27   the premise that you have a side right [TS]

00:41:31   so I want it I want to find the best [TS]

00:41:32   arguments against and if you just if [TS]

00:41:34   you're constantly concentrating on that [TS]

00:41:35   you're never thinking about whether the [TS]

00:41:39   thing you're trying to defend is still [TS]

00:41:40   the case you know what I mean like just [TS]

00:41:42   you have to reevaluate if you get too [TS]

00:41:43   caught up and now I got to play Notre [TS]

00:41:45   Dame I got then then you give you end up [TS]

00:41:46   becoming that bad kind of partisan who's [TS]

00:41:48   spending all their time trying to shore [TS]

00:41:50   up their position without ever reading [TS]

00:41:52   their position to say look is this is [TS]

00:41:54   this really still correct regardless of [TS]

00:41:57   how well I think I can defend it is this [TS]

00:41:58   really still correct and I think that's [TS]

00:42:03   the end of the Gruber section it's kind [TS]

00:42:04   of weird that I end up having two shows [TS]

00:42:06   before he gets to have a single show I [TS]

00:42:08   don't know if I'll even talk about these [TS]

00:42:09   topics but uh it you know since the [TS]

00:42:13   schedule flips around he's actually [TS]

00:42:14   recording after this yeah this usually [TS]

00:42:17   he would we [TS]

00:42:17   have recorded on the Wednesday yeah but [TS]

00:42:20   no not not this week because he's uh [TS]

00:42:23   wherever he is on you know great some [TS]

00:42:26   random vacation Vegas again Vegas tuna [TS]

00:42:29   tell from the typos would he put it he [TS]

00:42:31   wrote Marcos and he wrote ma RC capital [TS]

00:42:34   I apostrophe s o but he did add the [TS]

00:42:38   apostrophe yes well it doesn't end in a [TS]

00:42:40   nest but things like you were talking [TS]

00:42:42   about Merlin but how you can tell when [TS]

00:42:43   Gruber in the Vegas it's yeah because of [TS]

00:42:45   the via the typos and what was the other [TS]

00:42:47   thing [TS]

00:42:47   there are usually typos most of the [TS]

00:42:50   sites if there's a mobile version of the [TS]

00:42:52   site it will he will link to the mobile [TS]

00:42:54   version of the site instead of the [TS]

00:42:56   regular because he's doing everything on [TS]

00:42:57   his iPhone has he done that recently I [TS]

00:43:00   haven't seen that it's been less ever [TS]

00:43:01   since I called him out on it and maybe [TS]

00:43:03   coincidentally that was around the time [TS]

00:43:05   that he stopped doing it in such an [TS]

00:43:07   obvious way alright so moving on to some [TS]

00:43:10   other follow-up Jim mirtha writes in [TS]

00:43:12   about our discussion of Twitter if it's [TS]

00:43:14   unified timeline notice yeah I like that [TS]

00:43:16   because I want to see my replies in [TS]

00:43:19   chronological order with the rest of the [TS]

00:43:20   things and I thought that that would be [TS]

00:43:22   something that more people would like [TS]

00:43:23   because I thought the only people who [TS]

00:43:25   would like reply separate would be the [TS]

00:43:26   people have so many replies because they [TS]

00:43:28   have so many followers that it would [TS]

00:43:29   just drown out their timeline and they'd [TS]

00:43:31   spend all the time scrolling past a [TS]

00:43:33   million people replying to them and I'd [TS]

00:43:35   you know I said well they have to be the [TS]

00:43:36   minority right well so Jim has a good [TS]

00:43:38   theory on why people might still want [TS]

00:43:40   the reply as separate uh and it's back [TS]

00:43:42   to like we don't really know we know how [TS]

00:43:44   we use Twitter but I think uh in terms [TS]

00:43:47   of like how many people you follow and [TS]

00:43:49   we followers you have we are outliers [TS]

00:43:51   probably because we have so many [TS]

00:43:52   followers relative to other people sure [TS]

00:43:54   and I think probably we follow fewer [TS]

00:43:56   people because we both do use it you [TS]

00:43:57   know like how many people do you follow [TS]

00:43:58   it's not thousands all right no um [TS]

00:44:01   what's the easiest way for me to tell [TS]

00:44:03   you that I'm following I am following a [TS]

00:44:05   whopping 190 people which I can't [TS]

00:44:08   believe I'm following that many but I [TS]

00:44:09   think that most of those people tweet [TS]

00:44:12   once a month you know yeah I've tried to [TS]

00:44:16   keep it under triple digits for a long [TS]

00:44:18   time but I finally broke and the reason [TS]

00:44:19   I broke was because a lot of the [TS]

00:44:21   accounts I follow have like one tweet [TS]

00:44:23   every three months right so Joe it's [TS]

00:44:25   okay when that happened so I follow 132 [TS]

00:44:27   and I can read them I think so but but [TS]

00:44:30   what are you saying is that [TS]

00:44:31   he says I follow many people on Twitter [TS]

00:44:33   only a few of whom I know personally and [TS]

00:44:35   since I'm not a celebrity Internet or [TS]

00:44:37   otherwise my followers consist almost [TS]

00:44:38   exclusively of the very small number of [TS]

00:44:40   users who I know personally I think this [TS]

00:44:42   is probably typical of many Twitter [TS]

00:44:44   users fewer followers generally means [TS]

00:44:45   fewer mentions and replies the unified [TS]

00:44:47   timeline map useful people like me but [TS]

00:44:49   if you aren't getting replies and [TS]

00:44:50   mentions fairly regularly it's probably [TS]

00:44:52   not a feature to weigh heavily in your [TS]

00:44:53   decision of which client to use so it's [TS]

00:44:54   basically saying most people don't get a [TS]

00:44:56   lot at replies because they're they're [TS]

00:44:58   consuming I like following celebrities [TS]

00:44:59   and like one or two people who also [TS]

00:45:01   don't use a Twitter heavily and I can [TS]

00:45:02   imagine that might be a big chunk of [TS]

00:45:05   Twitter users who you know I've seen [TS]

00:45:07   some statistics of I don't know if [TS]

00:45:09   people are just guessing over there with [TS]

00:45:10   like of all the people who are on [TS]

00:45:12   Twitter how many people actually post [TS]

00:45:13   something like once a day or once a week [TS]

00:45:15   over Terence it's just a huge number of [TS]

00:45:17   people who are following an astronaut or [TS]

00:45:18   whatever and they're not saying anything [TS]

00:45:20   and so they're not going to get any app [TS]

00:45:21   mentions because they're not they're not [TS]

00:45:22   like purchased they're consuming rather [TS]

00:45:24   than then producing content right and [TS]

00:45:26   for those people whether or not it has [TS]

00:45:28   unified timeline it's not going to be a [TS]

00:45:30   factor in their decision they're going [TS]

00:45:31   to pick a Twitter client based on [TS]

00:45:32   something else so that would also [TS]

00:45:33   explain why there's not this big outcry [TS]

00:45:36   for unified timeline because as far as [TS]

00:45:38   if you never get at replies unified 9 [TS]

00:45:40   unifies all the same to them right down [TS]

00:45:42   they don't care [TS]

00:45:45   Apple TV talked a little bit about guy [TS]

00:45:48   English's interesting taken what he [TS]

00:45:51   thinks Apple TV might look like am on [TS]

00:45:54   Kadeem rights in and a couple people [TS]

00:45:55   wrote in with this theory wouldn't it be [TS]

00:45:57   much simpler would it be more simple to [TS]

00:45:59   integrate the computer / box into the [TS]

00:46:01   screen and let that component be [TS]

00:46:02   removable for optional yearly hardware [TS]

00:46:04   upgrades this is a lot of people a lot [TS]

00:46:07   of people have this theory a lot of [TS]

00:46:08   people cited the duo doc you remember [TS]

00:46:09   that yes the duo doc was something that [TS]

00:46:12   you would uh you would take your I guess [TS]

00:46:16   power book wasn't it [TS]

00:46:18   power book duo and you would connect it [TS]

00:46:20   to a little doc and there was a little [TS]

00:46:22   thing that it would latch on to so that [TS]

00:46:23   you could have all of this is back in [TS]

00:46:25   the days way before bluetooth and even [TS]

00:46:27   most wireless mice and keyboards and you [TS]

00:46:30   would connect all your peripherals to it [TS]

00:46:32   so it was simply just you drop the thing [TS]

00:46:33   in the docket click the thing boom I [TS]

00:46:35   never had one of these so I needed I [TS]

00:46:37   didn't know people that did have them I [TS]

00:46:38   thought it was quite quite handy it [TS]

00:46:40   enveloped the computer was actually you [TS]

00:46:42   would slide it in like that like a piece [TS]

00:46:43   of bread going into a slot toaster and [TS]

00:46:45   on the [TS]

00:46:45   because the thing that you slid it into [TS]

00:46:46   was like this big hunk and Connect [TS]

00:46:48   proprietary connector that they would [TS]

00:46:50   you know put all your ports out it was [TS]

00:46:51   great because the do the PowerBook do it [TS]

00:46:53   was really skinny it was there was the [TS]

00:46:54   let the MacBook Air of its de recipe [TS]

00:46:56   power power book 100 was the first [TS]

00:46:58   MacBook Air of its day but the second [TS]

00:46:59   MacBook Air of Apple's kept top era was [TS]

00:47:02   the power book door really small really [TS]

00:47:03   thin and it could be really thin because [TS]

00:47:06   it didn't have to have any of the stuff [TS]

00:47:08   that was on the docks of a floppy drive [TS]

00:47:09   and all that other stuff and then so you [TS]

00:47:11   get this really nice portable computer [TS]

00:47:13   that you could use but when you got back [TS]

00:47:15   to your desk you could slide that sucker [TS]

00:47:17   in there and have your full-fledged Mac [TS]

00:47:18   experience with your monitor and [TS]

00:47:19   everything it was nice I know in [TS]

00:47:20   academia a lot of a lot of people when I [TS]

00:47:22   went to college a lot of the professor's [TS]

00:47:23   had that because they loved that the [TS]

00:47:25   ability to walk around with that laptop [TS]

00:47:27   and then have the big setup when they [TS]

00:47:28   went back and what I replied to a few of [TS]

00:47:31   these people who I replied to and before [TS]

00:47:33   I gave up replying to all the people who [TS]

00:47:34   suggested this was that I really don't [TS]

00:47:35   think that Apple is going to produce [TS]

00:47:39   anything like the duo doc in the near [TS]

00:47:41   future and there's a couple of reasons I [TS]

00:47:44   think that one the the fact that they [TS]

00:47:46   haven't done anything like that in a [TS]

00:47:47   long time the closest thing I can think [TS]

00:47:49   of that has all the disadvantages of the [TS]

00:47:51   duo docker is like the iPod connector [TS]

00:47:53   the dock connector and I've already [TS]

00:47:54   complained about that but the main thing [TS]

00:47:55   is like when it came time to do [TS]

00:47:57   something like that with their modern [TS]

00:47:59   products which is basically the MacBook [TS]

00:48:01   Air they rather than doing a dock they [TS]

00:48:03   they put it all over thunderbolt and a [TS]

00:48:06   little power connector so they did the [TS]

00:48:07   little y-you know the split cable that [TS]

00:48:09   comes out of the back of a thunderbolt [TS]

00:48:10   display right it has the power for your [TS]

00:48:12   laptop and also a thunderbolt then [TS]

00:48:15   proxies all the firewire and Ethernet [TS]

00:48:17   and all but other stuff they could have [TS]

00:48:19   just as easily made a doc to have that [TS]

00:48:20   stuff but I it just seems like like [TS]

00:48:24   those dock connectors are just big and [TS]

00:48:26   ugly and proprietary and yes Apple has [TS]

00:48:28   been known to make proprietary [TS]

00:48:29   connectors in the past but it trend [TS]

00:48:31   seems to be away from that they used to [TS]

00:48:32   have bright airy connectors for [TS]

00:48:34   everything or if not proprietary then at [TS]

00:48:35   least obscure but like the new bus slot [TS]

00:48:37   which it wasn't proprietary think Sun [TS]

00:48:38   use new bus to but it might as well been [TS]

00:48:40   provider because nobody else was using [TS]

00:48:41   everyone else using yeah ISA and what [TS]

00:48:44   was the IBM thing micro channel or [TS]

00:48:45   whatever and you had a DB for the [TS]

00:48:49   keyboards and all you know every [TS]

00:48:51   connector was custom out of the apples [TS]

00:48:53   printer ports even lots of things were [TS]

00:48:54   physically compatible but not [TS]

00:48:55   electrically compatible but the trend or [TS]

00:48:59   with Apple has been to go away from [TS]

00:49:01   those and go toward standard even even [TS]

00:49:03   in you know the the jobs to error when [TS]

00:49:05   they did the ADB port which carried [TS]

00:49:07   display power for your display and USB [TS]

00:49:10   and was firing on there too and remember [TS]

00:49:12   that was what over one connector they [TS]

00:49:15   moved away from that they went to DVI a [TS]

00:49:17   lot of people were annoyed this is [TS]

00:49:18   likely how they love the elegance of [TS]

00:49:19   this this Apple display thing but Apple [TS]

00:49:22   said no you know I know it's less [TS]

00:49:23   elegant they have DVI and we have to do [TS]

00:49:24   this double data rate DVI and all those [TS]

00:49:26   stuff but we don't want to have a [TS]

00:49:28   brighter connection anymore they went to [TS]

00:49:29   USB instead of all their old stuff [TS]

00:49:31   Thunderbolt is even though Apple seems [TS]

00:49:35   to be ahead on it it's not apples Apple [TS]

00:49:37   didn't make it up it's an Intel standard [TS]

00:49:39   anybody can use it it's you know so I [TS]

00:49:41   don't think they want another [TS]

00:49:42   proprietary connector I've complained [TS]

00:49:45   about the iPod document connector many [TS]

00:49:47   times because its proprietary it's [TS]

00:49:48   fragile it's got lots of pins I would [TS]

00:49:50   not want something here I'm saying was [TS]

00:49:53   saying ADB nut ADC yes those two [TS]

00:49:55   separate things Apple desktop bus an [TS]

00:49:56   Apple display connector anyway the the [TS]

00:50:00   dock connector on the iPod has this [TS]

00:50:03   really important property of lock in for [TS]

00:50:05   iPod peripherals and everything but I [TS]

00:50:06   still think was a bad idea because I [TS]

00:50:08   don't I think cereal is more the way to [TS]

00:50:10   go I think if Apple if Thunderbolt [TS]

00:50:11   existed before the iPod took off [TS]

00:50:14   Apple would have use Thunderbolt the [TS]

00:50:16   very least use Thunderbolt as its bus [TS]

00:50:17   for for iPods assuming the the [TS]

00:50:21   connectors could be shrunk down to the [TS]

00:50:23   point where they're where they could fit [TS]

00:50:26   everything in and not have any heat [TS]

00:50:27   issues or whatever I don't like big wide [TS]

00:50:29   connectors lots of pins and a dock [TS]

00:50:31   connector that carries lots of stuff [TS]

00:50:32   over it especially if it's a private [TS]

00:50:33   area ends up being as big wide parallel [TS]

00:50:35   connected with lots of pins on it so I [TS]

00:50:37   think it Apple does not would not make [TS]

00:50:40   something that like you slid an Apple TV [TS]

00:50:43   box into and behind it was this big [TS]

00:50:44   honking pin now maybe they can do [TS]

00:50:46   something where you slide the Apple TV [TS]

00:50:47   in and behind it is just a thunderbolt [TS]

00:50:48   connector and power or like it just [TS]

00:50:50   plugs into a bunch of standard ports but [TS]

00:50:53   I don't I don't see Apple doing that I [TS]

00:50:55   think they like they're like no wires [TS]

00:50:57   best of all one skinny little wire [TS]

00:50:59   second best and big honkin proprietary [TS]

00:51:03   connectors not at all for their desktops [TS]

00:51:05   and laptops that's that's my prediction [TS]

00:51:08   assuming they do anything like this at [TS]

00:51:10   all I mean they they have an actual [TS]

00:51:11   television set and need to connect it [TS]

00:51:14   so Gabriel Moreno writes in to say have [TS]

00:51:18   you considered a we like pointer to [TS]

00:51:19   interact with TV in a way similar to how [TS]

00:51:21   we interact with a stylus or a [TS]

00:51:22   touchscreen something that I haven't [TS]

00:51:24   seen many he will bring it up but as [TS]

00:51:26   someone who uses a Wii I have thought [TS]

00:51:29   about it the Wii is interesting because [TS]

00:51:31   they went through a couple of different [TS]

00:51:34   phases in terms of how the software [TS]

00:51:36   works so the hardware when they we [TS]

00:51:39   originally launched was this thing that [TS]

00:51:41   accelerometers in it so we could tell [TS]

00:51:42   like which the way was tilting tilting [TS]

00:51:44   up to a point [TS]

00:51:45   until the accelerometers maxed out next [TS]

00:51:47   out and then it had an IR emitter on top [TS]

00:51:50   of your TV and there was an IR receiver [TS]

00:51:52   in the Wiimote and so by pointing the [TS]

00:51:56   receiver at the emitters it could tell [TS]

00:51:58   kind of where you were pointing on the [TS]

00:51:59   screen assuming many other factors when [TS]

00:52:02   an IR is not the best thing in the world [TS]

00:52:04   because like say you had really bright [TS]

00:52:05   sunlight coming through a window [TS]

00:52:06   directly at the IR receiver on your Wii [TS]

00:52:08   mote it could get confused it can [TS]

00:52:10   confuse by certain kinds of bright [TS]

00:52:12   lights and so a little bit later in the [TS]

00:52:14   development of the Wii they added the [TS]

00:52:16   Wii MotionPlus [TS]

00:52:17   which was this gyroscope it could it is [TS]

00:52:19   not unlike an accelerometer was just [TS]

00:52:21   like tilts to a certain point and then [TS]

00:52:22   it's maxed out a gyroscope is supposed [TS]

00:52:23   to be able to help what the orientation [TS]

00:52:25   is at 3:00 in 3d space so you could put [TS]

00:52:28   it any angle you wanted in theory the [TS]

00:52:30   gyroscope knew which direction was level [TS]

00:52:33   and it would say you are this many [TS]

00:52:34   degrees off this axis and this many [TS]

00:52:35   degrees off this axis and they they can [TS]

00:52:37   get confused if you shake the thing real [TS]

00:52:39   hard and you have to reset them a lot [TS]

00:52:40   stuff but they added and then they [TS]

00:52:42   integrated Wii MotionPlus [TS]

00:52:43   into the Wii mote so now you have [TS]

00:52:44   accelerometers and gyroscopes and the IR [TS]

00:52:46   thing now a lot of games that require [TS]

00:52:48   you to point at the screen and shoot at [TS]

00:52:49   something early on they use the IR [TS]

00:52:53   emitter so look at the early Metroid [TS]

00:52:55   Metroid Metroid Prime 3 you would point [TS]

00:52:57   at the screen and it would tell where [TS]

00:52:58   you're pointing based on the the 2 IR [TS]

00:53:01   emitters and the receiver and figure out [TS]

00:53:02   where you're pointing on the screen uh [TS]

00:53:04   and they had to use do lots of software [TS]

00:53:06   smoothing because if you just literally [TS]

00:53:09   showed the actual values of whether [TS]

00:53:12   Wiimote thought you know where the [TS]

00:53:14   system thought that we went was pointing [TS]

00:53:15   at any instant in time you could see the [TS]

00:53:16   big jumps and stutters and everything so [TS]

00:53:18   they would smooth it out with software [TS]

00:53:20   to try to make it a smooth experience [TS]

00:53:22   but it was still kind of twitchy [TS]

00:53:23   later and a lot of games did similar [TS]

00:53:26   things with us then [TS]

00:53:26   they're first-person shooters and stuff [TS]

00:53:27   like that later games seem to be moving [TS]

00:53:29   more towards using the gyroscopes to [TS]

00:53:31   figure out where you're pointing so it [TS]

00:53:32   actually doesn't even matter if you're [TS]

00:53:34   pointing at the screen well I guess it [TS]

00:53:35   kind of does because the gyroscope is [TS]

00:53:36   aligned of sort of way but it's telling [TS]

00:53:37   it's basically looking at how how far is [TS]

00:53:39   your Wiimote tilted so if you want to if [TS]

00:53:41   you want to move your your cursor up on [TS]

00:53:43   the screen you tilt the Wii mode up and [TS]

00:53:45   the system is not figuring out where the [TS]

00:53:47   Wii mote is pointing like literally if [TS]

00:53:48   you shot a laser out of the Wii mode do [TS]

00:53:50   it hit that part of your screen maybe it [TS]

00:53:51   wouldn't maybe would actually go over [TS]

00:53:52   your TV screen but it's clear when [TS]

00:53:54   you're holding it go up go down the left [TS]

00:53:57   go right and that's really what people [TS]

00:53:59   just want they just want a way to [TS]

00:54:00   control the thing not so much [TS]

00:54:02   oh I'm pointing exactly at the corner of [TS]

00:54:05   the screen and if I had a laser pointer [TS]

00:54:06   taped to my wii that's exactly where the [TS]

00:54:07   cursor should be and the gyroscope tends [TS]

00:54:09   to be less jittery and less subject to [TS]

00:54:12   environmental factors then the IR thing [TS]

00:54:15   is maybe these a combination I'm not [TS]

00:54:17   quite sure they just like for a modern [TS]

00:54:18   game like Skyward Sword for example so [TS]

00:54:21   when I think of a remote that would be [TS]

00:54:24   like a Wii I think of using the current [TS]

00:54:27   best practice which is go just go with [TS]

00:54:28   the gyroscope and I think does the Roku [TS]

00:54:30   have that someone in the chat room I [TS]

00:54:32   know I think there are TV attached boxes [TS]

00:54:33   that already do this that they give you [TS]

00:54:35   a little remote thing to hold in your [TS]

00:54:37   hand that uses gyroscopes or [TS]

00:54:38   accelerometers or something similar not [TS]

00:54:40   an IR emitter to direct the cursor on [TS]

00:54:44   the screen as an easier way of going [TS]

00:54:48   down down down right select up up select [TS]

00:54:50   down you know all that business with [TS]

00:54:52   your own it's a little bit easier if you [TS]

00:54:53   can just point and it works really [TS]

00:54:54   surprisingly well you can do lots of [TS]

00:54:57   software trucks to make the cursor kind [TS]

00:54:59   of stick to something like and the [TS]

00:55:00   skywards in Zelda Skyward Sword when [TS]

00:55:02   you're they put up a bunch of buttons on [TS]

00:55:04   the screen that you want to select you [TS]

00:55:05   can just kind of flick the remote in the [TS]

00:55:07   direction of the button you want upper [TS]

00:55:08   left lower right you know and and it [TS]

00:55:10   will kind of stick to it instead of [TS]

00:55:12   making you ain't exactly for the button [TS]

00:55:13   and be frustrated because you're just [TS]

00:55:14   off a little bit right right [TS]

00:55:17   someone from saying that Roku is use a [TS]

00:55:19   d-pad and but they don't know about the [TS]

00:55:22   fancy Angry Bird well I think I might be [TS]

00:55:23   one of the Roku's they use is ah anyway [TS]

00:55:25   I think that is a good idea [TS]

00:55:27   I'm sure Apple has the very least tried [TS]

00:55:29   that out because from what we all hear [TS]

00:55:31   about what goes on inside Apple they're [TS]

00:55:34   going to try a bunch of ideas they're [TS]

00:55:35   going to decide which one is best but [TS]

00:55:36   and they may not ship it and then they [TS]

00:55:38   may even try it develop it and patent it [TS]

00:55:40   but then never use it so I have to [TS]

00:55:42   assume that they have seen the Wii and [TS]

00:55:44   Wii motes and things that Roku and stuff [TS]

00:55:46   for doing and have given that a try and [TS]

00:55:48   we'll see if they decide that's what [TS]

00:55:49   passes muster for input method for your [TS]

00:55:53   Apple TV but it you don't hear a lot [TS]

00:55:55   about it because most of people are [TS]

00:55:56   writing about Apple TV are thinking [TS]

00:55:58   about touch or using something from [TS]

00:56:01   Apple technologies like what [TS]

00:56:02   how does iOS do it has the Magic [TS]

00:56:04   Trackpad do it you know how does the [TS]

00:56:06   remote app on on iOS control a control [TS]

00:56:08   the stuff and we can use it you know and [TS]

00:56:11   not so many people are just looking to [TS]

00:56:13   the game world you know I also haven't [TS]

00:56:14   heard people say they show you something [TS]

00:56:15   like Kinect or use your whole body to [TS]

00:56:17   control it and you wave your hands back [TS]

00:56:18   and forth to change shows stuff like [TS]

00:56:21   that that's also possible I'm not sure [TS]

00:56:24   that you would even investigate that [TS]

00:56:25   because that seems like a pretty [TS]

00:56:26   expensive a solution and Microsoft [TS]

00:56:28   hasn't quite even mastered it yet and [TS]

00:56:30   they're still just a revision one so [TS]

00:56:33   finally that's actually all the [TS]

00:56:34   follow-up I have leave not that was all [TS]

00:56:36   follow Wow yeah and I do have the the [TS]

00:56:39   poor the poor lonely topic that got [TS]

00:56:42   pushed to shows now finally waiting to [TS]

00:56:45   be discussed and we could we could do [TS]

00:56:49   that topic or we could talk about Lego [TS]

00:56:50   Star Wars I will leave it up to you [TS]

00:56:54   remind what the topic is I never told [TS]

00:56:57   you but it's a it's an article that you [TS]

00:57:00   brought up on talk show a while back is [TS]

00:57:01   why Harper why hypercard had to die do [TS]

00:57:03   you remember talking about that I sure [TS]

00:57:04   do [TS]

00:57:05   so that's I wanted to say some stuff [TS]

00:57:07   about that too and that's how long it's [TS]

00:57:08   been in my notes but or we can talk [TS]

00:57:09   about Lego Star Wars Tim I will be it [TS]

00:57:11   has to be one or the other I can't we [TS]

00:57:13   could do both if you have time when we [TS]

00:57:15   started early today yeah alright so we [TS]

00:57:18   see we started early I think we do why [TS]

00:57:21   not why not do both okay that's how I [TS]

00:57:23   feel I mean I don't a second sponsor [TS]

00:57:25   before we do sure I do then it's a it's [TS]

00:57:28   a it's a quick and easy sponsor to [TS]

00:57:30   you'll like that it's tiny letter this [TS]

00:57:33   is a simple newsletter app for people [TS]

00:57:35   with something to say there's no HTML [TS]

00:57:38   templates there's no signup beg code [TS]

00:57:40   there's no API each account includes [TS]

00:57:43   just a single mailing list you write it [TS]

00:57:46   you send your newsletter that's it it's [TS]

00:57:49   simple it's personal best of all it's [TS]

00:57:51   absolutely totally free always will be [TS]

00:57:53   free [TS]

00:57:54   if is a tiny letter com sign up and [TS]

00:57:56   start writing today shit [TS]

00:58:01   simple swill yems in the chatroom says [TS]

00:58:04   the Roku excess has and he quotes [TS]

00:58:06   enhanced remote with motion control for [TS]

00:58:08   games hmm not sure if they use that in [TS]

00:58:11   the menus but it clearly it's in there [TS]

00:58:12   for stopping angry birds or whatever [TS]

00:58:14   exactly I have your Angry Birds I just [TS]

00:58:16   got this I name but I downloaded it on [TS]

00:58:19   the computer that's in front of me right [TS]

00:58:20   now with my regular iTunes account not [TS]

00:58:22   the computer that I use to sync things [TS]

00:58:24   up I do have that computer set to you [TS]

00:58:27   know automatically download thing you [TS]

00:58:29   know new things when I get them but I've [TS]

00:58:32   heard in the past that if you get an app [TS]

00:58:35   before it is pulled from the store for [TS]

00:58:38   some reason that no matter what you can [TS]

00:58:41   always download that app you will always [TS]

00:58:42   be able to get to that app do you know [TS]

00:58:44   this is true can you corroborate this [TS]

00:58:46   I've heard that as well but I've never [TS]

00:58:48   tested it yeah I was hoping it was true [TS]

00:58:50   because I had the same situation I had [TS]

00:58:51   to I was actually holding my ipod touch [TS]

00:58:53   when I found out about this and I [TS]

00:58:55   couldn't actually download it on my ipod [TS]

00:58:57   touch because it requires the iOS 4.3 [TS]

00:58:59   and I can't even run that on my old iPod [TS]

00:59:01   touch right so I quickly went over to my [TS]

00:59:02   Mac and just bought you know I was going [TS]

00:59:04   to buy it that I didn't realize even [TS]

00:59:05   free and just did it there of course [TS]

00:59:07   that's not the Mac that I use to sync [TS]

00:59:09   with the iPad so later like two days [TS]

00:59:11   later first of all I figured I got a [TS]

00:59:13   download on my Mac I've got the IPA [TS]

00:59:15   sitting in some directory worst case I [TS]

00:59:16   could like manually you know drag it [TS]

00:59:18   over and do stuff so when I pulled up [TS]

00:59:19   the iPad it you know the the new world [TS]

00:59:22   of iTunes is you go to it into iTunes [TS]

00:59:23   and it knows you already bought it and [TS]

00:59:25   it's you can go to the purchased apps [TS]

00:59:26   thing you don't have to go to the [TS]

00:59:27   product page just go to you know in the [TS]

00:59:29   in the app store on iOS 5 go to the [TS]

00:59:31   purchased button somewhere on the bottom [TS]

00:59:32   and it will show stuff that you've [TS]

00:59:34   purchased that you can't yet that you [TS]

00:59:36   haven't yet downloaded it don't have the [TS]

00:59:37   little cloud icon and I assume that it [TS]

00:59:39   will continue to show that little cloud [TS]

00:59:40   icon oh no TJ Loomis says it's [TS]

00:59:43   definitely not true some apps are [TS]

00:59:45   removed and you can't get them again so [TS]

00:59:47   you know I've never tested it maybe some [TS]

00:59:49   people have run out of the problem but [TS]

00:59:50   it since it's still in the store we I [TS]

00:59:52   couldn't test it here so I hit the [TS]

00:59:53   little cloud icon and downloaded onto [TS]

00:59:54   the iPad and scooter computer says he [TS]

00:59:57   thinks it depends on why Apple pulled [TS]

00:59:59   them this is the thing with these [TS]

00:59:59   them this is the thing with these [TS]

01:00:00   these thing even if you have done this [TS]

01:00:01   before even if you had this exact [TS]

01:00:02   situation and you said oh I bought [TS]

01:00:04   something and then it went away and I [TS]

01:00:07   couldn't download it on my iPad and you [TS]

01:00:09   know that really doesn't tell you [TS]

01:00:11   whether in the future that will also be [TS]

01:00:12   true because Apple's policies change [TS]

01:00:15   without notice arbitrarily at undefined [TS]

01:00:19   times with no communication to [TS]

01:00:21   developers or customers so you just you [TS]

01:00:23   just never know that's why everyone [TS]

01:00:25   scrambles to get the stuff as soon as [TS]

01:00:26   they can you know get it I'll sink that [TS]

01:00:29   alright [TS]

01:00:30   why HyperCard had to die I'm also you [TS]

01:00:35   just want to talk about hypercard I did [TS]

01:00:36   read the article and it does have offer [TS]

01:00:39   theories on why harbor card went away [TS]

01:00:40   and stuff like that but I think he [TS]

01:00:42   talked about a lot of that with a group [TS]

01:00:44   around the talkshow [TS]

01:00:44   but it made me start thinking about [TS]

01:00:47   hyper card I guess I'll um oh yeah [TS]

01:00:48   addressing a few of these points well [TS]

01:00:50   here can you can you please explain to [TS]

01:00:53   people who maybe are not familiar with [TS]

01:00:55   hyper card very briefly what what is or [TS]

01:00:58   was hypercard and why should anybody [TS]

01:01:00   care about this thing yeah I'm looking [TS]

01:01:03   in my notes here I have a little first [TS]

01:01:04   section unlike describing one hyper [TS]

01:01:06   creditors and I realized it's probably [TS]

01:01:07   not going to help people because I start [TS]

01:01:10   by saying hyper card is a lot like small [TS]

01:01:11   talk if you don't know what hyper card [TS]

01:01:12   is the odds of you knowing what small [TS]

01:01:13   talk are is a slim but I'll give it a [TS]

01:01:15   try so hyper card was an application [TS]

01:01:18   that you ran on a Mac classic Mac OS and [TS]

01:01:20   when you ran the application it sort of [TS]

01:01:21   it entered this environment and it [TS]

01:01:24   metaphor was like you had stacks and I [TS]

01:01:26   had cards in the in the stacks and it [TS]

01:01:29   was an environment where you can create [TS]

01:01:31   an application inside this other [TS]

01:01:33   application and the thing that you [TS]

01:01:34   created that stack you could save out to [TS]

01:01:36   a separate thing and that would run [TS]

01:01:37   inside the hypercard environment and [TS]

01:01:38   what you were creating were basically [TS]

01:01:41   GUI applications you could drag out [TS]

01:01:42   little buttons and text panes and make [TS]

01:01:46   little things where you click on this [TS]

01:01:47   you go to a different card to use the [TS]

01:01:48   card metaphor it was kind of like [TS]

01:01:50   hyperlinks where you click here you go [TS]

01:01:51   to a different card that card I have a [TS]

01:01:52   bunch of feels a bunch of buttons and [TS]

01:01:53   you would connect actions to these [TS]

01:01:55   buttons when you when you put a button [TS]

01:01:57   in you could connect a script to and you [TS]

01:01:58   wrote in this language called hyper talk [TS]

01:01:59   which is kind of like a friendly [TS]

01:02:01   programming language not you know you [TS]

01:02:03   didn't have to memory management or I [TS]

01:02:04   think that it was kind of more like [TS]

01:02:05   scripting but and so you would make it [TS]

01:02:10   you would make these Apple GUI [TS]

01:02:12   applications [TS]

01:02:13   they weren't standalone applications [TS]

01:02:14   like other Mac applications so it wasn't [TS]

01:02:16   a first-class app but it was a hyper [TS]

01:02:17   card stack and they could do fancy stuff [TS]

01:02:19   people use them you know would make apps [TS]

01:02:21   for accounting or database or whatever I [TS]

01:02:23   made a bunch hypercard stacks as a kid [TS]

01:02:26   doing all sorts of things it was kind of [TS]

01:02:28   like since I didn't have a web browser [TS]

01:02:30   the web didn't exist yet I would make [TS]

01:02:32   things that you would normally make as [TS]

01:02:33   web pages like it an interlinked series [TS]

01:02:36   of things I remember doing like trying [TS]

01:02:38   to do point-and-click adventures where I [TS]

01:02:40   draw a little picture with a bunch of [TS]

01:02:41   little things and if you clicked on that [TS]

01:02:42   you go to a different card or some a new [TS]

01:02:44   thing would appear on the screen right [TS]

01:02:45   and later you know the game missed the [TS]

01:02:48   blockbuster game this was actually built [TS]

01:02:49   on hyper card uh sorry completely [TS]

01:02:52   vindicating the concept of creating [TS]

01:02:54   point click adventure games on I per [TS]

01:02:56   card like wow they actually use Hyper I [TS]

01:02:58   was question was a little bit better [TS]

01:02:59   than the hyper card games I have been [TS]

01:03:00   creating it like you know twelve years [TS]

01:03:02   old or whatever but the great thing [TS]

01:03:04   about the original version hypercar like [TS]

01:03:06   it was literally a hyper card stack and [TS]

01:03:07   for anyone had used HyperCard knew that [TS]

01:03:10   if you held down the command key you'd [TS]

01:03:11   see dotted lines around the region's [TS]

01:03:12   they were clickable cuz that would help [TS]

01:03:14   you debug your hyper card stack to see [TS]

01:03:16   if you had set stuff off correctly so in [TS]

01:03:18   the early versions of HyperCard of the [TS]

01:03:19   Mac you would launch it if you got stuck [TS]

01:03:21   you could hold on the command key near [TS]

01:03:22   which a little dotted lines around the [TS]

01:03:23   things you could click which is a kind [TS]

01:03:25   of cheating but sometimes kind of not [TS]

01:03:27   because just because you can click there [TS]

01:03:28   doesn't mean any action would occur just [TS]

01:03:30   meant that you know if you hadn't pulled [TS]

01:03:31   this lever and then click there [TS]

01:03:33   something happens but anyway to fix that [TS]

01:03:35   in subsequent versions uh so I I said it [TS]

01:03:39   was like small talk because small talk [TS]

01:03:41   was like the self-contained environment [TS]

01:03:43   I don't know the terminology for small [TS]

01:03:44   talk so small talk fans will yell at me [TS]

01:03:46   as I describe this but in small talk the [TS]

01:03:49   environment for developing your [TS]

01:03:50   applications was the same environment [TS]

01:03:54   where they ran and it was like it was [TS]

01:03:56   self hosting it was like one big image [TS]

01:03:59   small talk image of the entire [TS]

01:04:01   environment the OS the quote/unquote OS [TS]

01:04:03   the small talks virtual OS and the [TS]

01:04:05   programs you wrote and the ID they using [TS]

01:04:07   to write them everything was all there [TS]

01:04:09   there wasn't any distinction between I [TS]

01:04:10   use this application to create an app [TS]

01:04:12   and then I run the app the place where [TS]

01:04:13   you created the application was the [TS]

01:04:15   place where it would run the thing you [TS]

01:04:17   were creating the application with was [TS]

01:04:18   the scent you were just basically [TS]

01:04:19   modifying the existing environment by [TS]

01:04:21   I'm going to augment the environment you [TS]

01:04:23   know and you just add to it and add to [TS]

01:04:25   it so that was what hyper car was like [TS]

01:04:26   it was a separate [TS]

01:04:27   world where you made these hyper card [TS]

01:04:30   stacks and they didn't exist outside of [TS]

01:04:34   the world of HyperCard now it wasn't [TS]

01:04:35   really self hoping hosting like small [TS]

01:04:36   talk was I don't even know it's the [TS]

01:04:38   right term self hosting it probably [TS]

01:04:39   isn't in it [TS]

01:04:40   you couldn't modify hyper hyper card [TS]

01:04:43   environment itself by writing a hyper [TS]

01:04:46   card stack you were clearly writing a [TS]

01:04:48   stack that ran within the environment so [TS]

01:04:50   there was that distinction but it [TS]

01:04:52   reminded a lot of people small talk [TS]

01:04:53   because it made it easy to write [TS]

01:04:54   applications without memory management [TS]

01:04:58   and all this other you know it's much [TS]

01:05:00   harder to write it you know a mac [TS]

01:05:01   toolbox application and see back in [TS]

01:05:04   those days in pascal or whatever then it [TS]

01:05:06   was to write a hyper card stack so the [TS]

01:05:08   reason i want to talk about this is that [TS]

01:05:10   at the dawn of the PC era there was his [TS]

01:05:13   idea and you heard Steve Jobs and Steve [TS]

01:05:15   Wozniak expressed this idea as well back [TS]

01:05:18   in the early days of Apple that are [TS]

01:05:20   backing before the early days of Apple [TS]

01:05:22   and they were just you know the homebrew [TS]

01:05:23   Computer Club the giving computers to [TS]

01:05:25   individuals instead of having them being [TS]

01:05:27   kept by the men in lab coats and pocket [TS]

01:05:29   protectors in the big place giving a [TS]

01:05:30   computer to an individual person was [TS]

01:05:33   exciting because we're like bit you know [TS]

01:05:35   previously the Department of Defense or [TS]

01:05:37   the big company could have one but now [TS]

01:05:38   an individual can have a computer and [TS]

01:05:40   what do they think that meant what so [TS]

01:05:42   once an individual computer has a [TS]

01:05:44   computer has that change things well [TS]

01:05:46   they thought that when you gave [TS]

01:05:47   individuals computers individuals would [TS]

01:05:49   be excited to do with them the same [TS]

01:05:52   thing as people were doing with giant [TS]

01:05:53   computers the difference was that now [TS]

01:05:54   you had access so Steve Jobs and Steve [TS]

01:05:56   Wozniak loved to go and play with the [TS]

01:05:59   big computer on a terminal of to like [TS]

01:06:00   write little programs for it stuff like [TS]

01:06:02   that I figured well if everybody had a [TS]

01:06:03   computer ever you know you wouldn't have [TS]

01:06:05   to go to this building and beg somebody [TS]

01:06:06   for time to use this computer you could [TS]

01:06:08   write programs on your own um and that's [TS]

01:06:12   why so many early pcs like they came [TS]

01:06:15   with some sort of program like some what [TS]

01:06:16   some of them even booted into it that I [TS]

01:06:18   remember in my first contact with [TS]

01:06:20   personal computers was that when you [TS]

01:06:22   turn one on you got a basic prompt that [TS]

01:06:23   was just that's like that's how a PC [TS]

01:06:26   work and you could write your own [TS]

01:06:27   program at that prompt you could load a [TS]

01:06:29   program from a tape or whatever I just [TS]

01:06:31   had it had it built it had built in [TS]

01:06:33   right and you can actually just turn on [TS]

01:06:35   a computer and sit down start writing [TS]

01:06:36   basic yeah nothing is that it no no [TS]

01:06:38   floppy drive no anything like that and [TS]

01:06:40   if you didn't have a built-in or you [TS]

01:06:42   know the first thing you would get your [TS]

01:06:43   computer is like I need I need to get [TS]

01:06:44   basic I need to get a better version of [TS]

01:06:46   basic so I can write better programs [TS]

01:06:47   right because whatever you had there was [TS]

01:06:49   whatever had shipped with the computer [TS]

01:06:51   it might be basic instead of basic a [TS]

01:06:53   advanced or whatever it was and and you [TS]

01:06:56   didn't wanna be stuck with that yeah and [TS]

01:06:58   I remember a you know getting a computer [TS]

01:07:01   that did when you turned it on it didn't [TS]

01:07:03   have some other programming language [TS]

01:07:05   prompt was like oh that's kind of lame I [TS]

01:07:08   you know doesn't even come with one like [TS]

01:07:09   well this is this computer is useless [TS]

01:07:11   you didn't yeah that's right a program [TS]

01:07:12   in it I got I got a alright fine I go [TS]

01:07:14   out and buy you know Microsoft basic and [TS]

01:07:16   stick on this thing or that you know the [TS]

01:07:18   next and then it that's just how how [TS]

01:07:21   computers came into the world and it [TS]

01:07:22   make sense them coming out of a bunch of [TS]

01:07:24   nerds who like to program but the [TS]

01:07:27   reality was that you know what people [TS]

01:07:30   really wanted to do with computers was [TS]

01:07:32   something useful not so much right the [TS]

01:07:33   program so it was like all those people [TS]

01:07:36   who are excited about having their own [TS]

01:07:37   computers they wanted to write programs [TS]

01:07:38   but other people weren't excited about [TS]

01:07:42   having their own computer didn't thought [TS]

01:07:43   it was kind of silly however there's [TS]

01:07:45   some quote I should have looked up from [TS]

01:07:46   the IBM person was a market for maybe [TS]

01:07:48   like a thousand personal computers a [TS]

01:07:49   thousand computers in the entire world [TS]

01:07:51   because like honestly why would an [TS]

01:07:54   individual on a computer because and the [TS]

01:07:55   reason they thought this was because [TS]

01:07:57   what was done with computers was that [TS]

01:07:59   you wrote programs for them they said [TS]

01:08:00   well you know come on who's going to [TS]

01:08:01   write a probe [TS]

01:08:02   us nerds we're gonna write programs [TS]

01:08:03   computer and if you don't want to write [TS]

01:08:05   a program why would you want that's what [TS]

01:08:06   you do with the computer you write [TS]

01:08:07   programs and so the reaction to seeing [TS]

01:08:11   that you gave all these computers to [TS]

01:08:13   people and they didn't you know non nerd [TS]

01:08:15   people eventually got computers and they [TS]

01:08:17   wanted to run you know visicalc or [TS]

01:08:18   something they want an application to [TS]

01:08:20   help them run their business they didn't [TS]

01:08:21   want a program visit calculator we want [TS]

01:08:23   you to give them a computer finally I [TS]

01:08:24   can write programs they were never going [TS]

01:08:25   to write programs and so the reaction to [TS]

01:08:27   this from the computer industry was oh I [TS]

01:08:30   see the problem all right so we got [TS]

01:08:31   these computers to everybody but no [TS]

01:08:32   one's writing programs this program is [TS]

01:08:34   too darn hard the dissolution is going [TS]

01:08:36   to be let's make programming easier [TS]

01:08:37   because obviously like we're giving [TS]

01:08:39   these people's computers NATO they don't [TS]

01:08:40   even understand what they've got they're [TS]

01:08:41   just like alright so I load some [TS]

01:08:42   software's like no you can right don't [TS]

01:08:44   you understand you've got a computer in [TS]

01:08:45   your own house and you can write [TS]

01:08:47   programs for it isn't that awesome we [TS]

01:08:49   used to have to go to that built don't [TS]

01:08:50   you know they don't get it but I guess [TS]

01:08:51   it's too hard what we've got to do US [TS]

01:08:53   nerds who are you [TS]

01:08:54   Peters we've got to make programming [TS]

01:08:55   easier uh and that's when you saw things [TS]

01:08:59   like yeah logo for kids where you move [TS]

01:09:02   the little turtle around the screen [TS]

01:09:03   AppleScript [TS]

01:09:04   where it's like plain English type of [TS]

01:09:06   programming hyper card is an example [TS]

01:09:08   where it's really hard to write a GUI [TS]

01:09:10   applications let's make an environment [TS]

01:09:12   where regular people can finally can [TS]

01:09:14   finally get the benefit that we all [TS]

01:09:15   thought they should have from computers [TS]

01:09:16   which is you can write your own programs [TS]

01:09:18   you can make you know it's it's a it's a [TS]

01:09:20   general-purpose computer don't you [TS]

01:09:21   understand you can do anything and I [TS]

01:09:24   think that really did broaden the base [TS]

01:09:26   of what people could do people people [TS]

01:09:28   who are not programmers you know who [TS]

01:09:30   never would have tried to rake a [TS]

01:09:31   Macintosh GUI application made hyper [TS]

01:09:33   card stacks that you know they ran their [TS]

01:09:35   business on for years i I'm sure someone [TS]

01:09:38   out there will have some story about [TS]

01:09:39   someone whose business is right now as [TS]

01:09:41   they're listening to this still running [TS]

01:09:43   an I Picard stack running on some like [TS]

01:09:45   Mac se or something I read stories about [TS]

01:09:47   that for years on the Internet where [TS]

01:09:49   there's just like they wrote this [TS]

01:09:50   awesome hyper card stack and it exactly [TS]

01:09:52   fit their business and they made it [TS]

01:09:54   themselves and they're so proud of it [TS]

01:09:56   and they just want to keep running it [TS]

01:09:57   forever and they're disappointed that [TS]

01:09:58   HyperCard didn't live on now let's think [TS]

01:10:02   about today's application application [TS]

01:10:08   making environments things that make [TS]

01:10:11   programming easier that the trend today [TS]

01:10:13   is to make the pieces do more so an [TS]

01:10:19   hypercard you make a button and you can [TS]

01:10:20   make a text field you can make a check [TS]

01:10:21   box and you can make like a worthy click [TS]

01:10:23   on it go somewhere each one of those [TS]

01:10:25   things is actually fiendishly complex [TS]

01:10:27   from the perspective of like a basic [TS]

01:10:29   prompt just getting like a functioning [TS]

01:10:30   button and GUI and an event system and [TS]

01:10:33   windowing system that's tremendously [TS]

01:10:34   difficult so it's just an amazing feat [TS]

01:10:36   like that you just drag a button out or [TS]

01:10:37   click and make a new button isn't that [TS]

01:10:38   great but today like you think about an [TS]

01:10:42   automated workflow the pieces of that [TS]

01:10:44   Automator workflow like things you can [TS]

01:10:47   drag into an automated workflow are more [TS]

01:10:49   complicated than the most complicated [TS]

01:10:50   programs that existed in the dawn of the [TS]

01:10:52   PC era you know one little piece of an [TS]

01:10:54   automated workflow can do this amazing [TS]

01:10:55   an image manipulation by just checking a [TS]

01:10:57   bunch of check boxes or think of course [TS]

01:10:59   Composer with the things that that can [TS]

01:11:00   do with no program whatsoever just by [TS]

01:11:02   connecting up lines and setting values [TS]

01:11:03   it's unbelievably powerful pieces [TS]

01:11:07   individually [TS]

01:11:08   that you can connect together with [TS]

01:11:09   little lines and dots and just click and [TS]

01:11:11   buttons and gooeys that can do amazing [TS]

01:11:12   things and that you can build you can [TS]

01:11:15   build up a pretty complicated program [TS]

01:11:18   with an automated workflow by connecting [TS]

01:11:19   these incredibly powerful pieces that [TS]

01:11:21   you didn't have to write which is even [TS]

01:11:23   more powerful than just connecting a [TS]

01:11:24   bunch of buttons you didn't have to [TS]

01:11:25   write you know what I mean uh so that [TS]

01:11:29   that seems to be the trend these days is [TS]

01:11:31   like another way is like a very [TS]

01:11:34   configurable tool right where Automator [TS]

01:11:38   Automator is not you know it's not a [TS]

01:11:40   programming language you'll have to [TS]

01:11:41   write as no code at all it's it's just [TS]

01:11:42   like a tool that you can use to build [TS]

01:11:43   other tools and it's very configurable [TS]

01:11:45   as lots of check boxes and you control [TS]

01:11:46   how the pieces you know connect together [TS]

01:11:48   and what the inputs and outputs are [TS]

01:11:50   right now my take on this entire [TS]

01:11:55   endeavor of making programming easier is [TS]

01:12:01   that in all these cases Apple scripts [TS]

01:12:04   HyperCard Automator the the harsh [TS]

01:12:08   reality is that anything that provides [TS]

01:12:10   this benefit that you know that lowers [TS]

01:12:13   the bar for people to do powerful things [TS]

01:12:16   they can figure themselves inevitably in [TS]

01:12:20   all cases leads to programming [TS]

01:12:23   I guess primary programming with a [TS]

01:12:24   capital P even an Automator workflow [TS]

01:12:27   alright once you once you get beyond the [TS]

01:12:30   few set of things that you can do you [TS]

01:12:32   very very quickly get into actual [TS]

01:12:36   programming conditionals loops [TS]

01:12:38   abstraction you know and that that leap [TS]

01:12:43   into the world of being a programmer [TS]

01:12:45   it's it's great that we've lowered the [TS]

01:12:47   bar and more people can get into that [TS]

01:12:48   world but the people who make that leap [TS]

01:12:50   they they are the programmers of the [TS]

01:12:52   world they are the people who think like [TS]

01:12:56   programmers who can do that type of [TS]

01:12:57   thing and most of the world still and I [TS]

01:13:00   think always will not be that type of [TS]

01:13:02   person uh no matter how easy you make it [TS]

01:13:06   and I don't think it even makes a [TS]

01:13:07   difference how easy you make it no [TS]

01:13:09   matter how powerful the individual [TS]

01:13:10   pieces are you will so quickly get into [TS]

01:13:13   a situation where to assemble those [TS]

01:13:16   pieces you need to understand loops [TS]

01:13:17   conditionals functions abstraction it [TS]

01:13:20   you know data [TS]

01:13:21   you know it just it's inevitable there [TS]

01:13:24   is no way you can make programming and [TS]

01:13:26   easy enough that you don't need to [TS]

01:13:27   understand those concepts and I think [TS]

01:13:28   those concepts are not natural to most [TS]

01:13:31   people they're most natural to nerds and [TS]

01:13:33   going up the spectrum of like less being [TS]

01:13:35   less nerdy I don't even know the [TS]

01:13:37   particular Astra buttes are nerd them [TS]

01:13:39   that make us make this type of stuff [TS]

01:13:42   makes so much sense to us or make it an [TS]

01:13:46   enjoyable or you know tolerant yeah [TS]

01:13:48   worst or you know scratches our itches [TS]

01:13:50   or makes us that feel good actually I [TS]

01:13:52   could do a whole show about what what [TS]

01:13:54   actually makes people good programmers [TS]

01:13:56   and how it's usually not what people [TS]

01:13:59   people themselves think so I should put [TS]

01:14:00   that in the notes all right so while I [TS]

01:14:03   think it's great that these tools have [TS]

01:14:05   been providing more powerful pieces [TS]

01:14:08   I think the Utopia that people might [TS]

01:14:11   have envisioned before you know before [TS]

01:14:14   the dawn of the PC eight or just as the [TS]

01:14:15   PC Age was dawning that she's you know [TS]

01:14:18   once everybody has a computer everyone [TS]

01:14:20   will be able to be a programmer that [TS]

01:14:21   will never happen unless be you know [TS]

01:14:24   unless the entire world's wiped out and [TS]

01:14:26   the only people left are programmers you [TS]

01:14:27   know it simply will not happen doesn't [TS]

01:14:30   it doesn't mean that all these things [TS]

01:14:31   aren't good it just means that that's [TS]

01:14:33   not going to happen and they say well [TS]

01:14:35   HyperCard is gone and if I we still had [TS]

01:14:37   HyperCard everyone we would be making [TS]

01:14:39   awesome hypercar sex everyone would not [TS]

01:14:41   be like the nut percentage of people who [TS]

01:14:44   can make awesome hypercard stacks is so [TS]

01:14:45   small I I think we definitely need to [TS]

01:14:47   continue to make development better and [TS]

01:14:49   better for programmers so programmers [TS]

01:14:51   can be more productive but we are never [TS]

01:14:53   going to be in a world where everybody [TS]

01:14:56   reaps the benefits that we as [TS]

01:14:58   programmers feel we can reap we are [TS]

01:15:00   making the world better for programmers [TS]

01:15:01   and we programmers in turn will make the [TS]

01:15:03   world better for everybody I hope right [TS]

01:15:05   but it's never going to be something [TS]

01:15:08   that everybody does it's kind of and [TS]

01:15:09   it's kind of weird to like to think [TS]

01:15:10   about that this is kind of like someone [TS]

01:15:11   saying boy these amazing new modern [TS]

01:15:13   woodworking tools are going to make [TS]

01:15:14   everybody build their own cabinets for [TS]

01:15:16   the kitchen right the it's going to make [TS]

01:15:18   woodworking much more awesome and will [TS]

01:15:20   broaden the base of people who can do [TS]

01:15:22   woodworking versus you know it takes [TS]

01:15:24   more skill to use hand tools and chisels [TS]

01:15:27   to make awesome fine furniture and than [TS]

01:15:29   it does to use power tools but it still [TS]

01:15:32   takes a lot of skill and it's not going [TS]

01:15:33   to suddenly make the entire human race [TS]

01:15:34   able to make [TS]

01:15:35   Furniture themselves with power tools a [TS]

01:15:37   they might not even want to and be the [TS]

01:15:39   skills for doing that are not as [TS]

01:15:41   widespread as people who are woodworkers [TS]

01:15:43   might might think they're going to be [TS]

01:15:44   and it's just kind of presumptuous of [TS]

01:15:45   programmers to think the only thing [TS]

01:15:47   stopping the entire world from from [TS]

01:15:49   reaping the benefits that we as [TS]

01:15:51   programmers reap is the fact that [TS]

01:15:52   computers are that you know our big [TS]

01:15:54   machines in a big room once we get them [TS]

01:15:55   all tout to the people [TS]

01:15:56   everyone will together ok well now [TS]

01:15:58   they're all to the people but it's too [TS]

01:15:59   hard will make it easier it's just never [TS]

01:16:00   going to happen so I I sympathize with [TS]

01:16:04   people with the death of HyperCard and I [TS]

01:16:06   think we do need to make those tools [TS]

01:16:07   better and better but I do want to come [TS]

01:16:11   out against the notion that we're all [TS]

01:16:12   going to be programmers because we're [TS]

01:16:13   not the only people are going to be [TS]

01:16:14   programmers are programmers and I we can [TS]

01:16:16   grow that base I think we can grow that [TS]

01:16:18   base but there's a hard limit on it not [TS]

01:16:21   beyond a certain point [TS]

01:16:22   oh now one more thing to talk about here [TS]

01:16:26   the thing that kills me about the ways [TS]

01:16:29   we've tried to make programming easier [TS]

01:16:32   and broaden the base is a lot of them [TS]

01:16:34   seem to be based on that that mistaken [TS]

01:16:37   notion that anyone can be a programmer [TS]

01:16:38   Apple script is a good example and even [TS]

01:16:41   hyper talk a little bit of our the way [TS]

01:16:43   hypercar was made of saying well the [TS]

01:16:45   problem is that syntax is like weird and [TS]

01:16:47   uh and that's that's off-putting to [TS]

01:16:51   people with it with the square brackets [TS]

01:16:52   and the semicolons and the weird [TS]

01:16:54   punctuation and all these harsh rules [TS]

01:16:55   about syntax and you got to write it [TS]

01:16:56   exactly right what if we made it more [TS]

01:16:58   flexible like English you know you know [TS]

01:17:00   select the contents of window one put [TS]

01:17:03   the folder into the wind you know that's [TS]

01:17:04   Apple script right and you can phrase in [TS]

01:17:06   lots of different ways and we'll do the [TS]

01:17:07   same thing but use english word it's not [TS]

01:17:10   punctuation because people who are not [TS]

01:17:13   programmers have trouble with that [TS]

01:17:14   punctuation making programming language [TS]

01:17:17   more powerful and more forgiving is good [TS]

01:17:19   but trying to do it by making [TS]

01:17:22   programming languages that no programmer [TS]

01:17:25   wants to use is not the right way to do [TS]

01:17:26   it and I think Apple script with very [TS]

01:17:29   few exceptions is that syntax and that [TS]

01:17:31   that type of language is looked down [TS]

01:17:33   upon by quote unquote real programs not [TS]

01:17:34   because it's not powerful anything it's [TS]

01:17:36   like it's Turing complete right it's [TS]

01:17:37   just it gets in our way and the decades [TS]

01:17:40   and decades of programming experience [TS]

01:17:41   the human race has says that you know [TS]

01:17:43   it's good to be forgiving and flexible [TS]

01:17:45   and everything but the English language [TS]

01:17:47   I think as we establish at the top of [TS]

01:17:48   the show [TS]

01:17:49   is actually fiendishly complicated and [TS]

01:17:51   people can't even write regular you know [TS]

01:17:53   we don't even know how to communicate to [TS]

01:17:54   each other successfully in prose but [TS]

01:17:56   keeping programming out of it that's not [TS]

01:17:58   that's not the model to use for telling [TS]

01:18:00   a computer what to do right that I [TS]

01:18:03   expect that people might send email to [TS]

01:18:06   me saying well what about Perl this big [TS]

01:18:07   thing is that you know it's got more [TS]

01:18:08   than one way to do it and it's got to be [TS]

01:18:10   more like a language I think Perl is a [TS]

01:18:11   great example where they took took the [TS]

01:18:13   things that make programming language is [TS]

01:18:15   easier things about context and and [TS]

01:18:19   having different ways to write the same [TS]

01:18:20   thing based on context those are those [TS]

01:18:22   are ideas that we use in written [TS]

01:18:24   communication but Perl is not it's not [TS]

01:18:26   they didn't go whole hog and say it's [TS]

01:18:28   like it's like the skeuomorphism of a [TS]

01:18:30   programming language oh we're going to [TS]

01:18:32   make program language look like this [TS]

01:18:33   other thing which is in a program we get [TS]

01:18:34   look like pros Perl does not look like [TS]

01:18:36   pros I don't think anyone has ever said [TS]

01:18:37   the pro looks like pros it takes the [TS]

01:18:39   concepts from successful linguistic [TS]

01:18:42   communication linguistic structures and [TS]

01:18:44   applies them to a programming language [TS]

01:18:45   and by the way I'll also add that I was [TS]

01:18:48   came up this week cuz I was doing a lot [TS]

01:18:49   of JavaScript Perl has such awesome [TS]

01:18:51   error reporting people tell you late [TS]

01:18:53   will figure out like oh I think you'd [TS]

01:18:56   forgot the close quote way up here and [TS]

01:18:58   that's why this error message down here [TS]

01:19:00   is saying something nonsensical to you [TS]

01:19:01   it will do the work to figure out you [TS]

01:19:03   know and this tab was just from decades [TS]

01:19:05   of development of stuff and every time I [TS]

01:19:07   use a programming language like [TS]

01:19:08   JavaScript it isn't as forgiving it [TS]

01:19:09   would just say uh you know unexpected [TS]

01:19:12   token blah and you look at that line [TS]

01:19:14   like that's perfectly fine and it's [TS]

01:19:15   because 17 lines earlier something [TS]

01:19:18   wasn't terminated or you've got a [TS]

01:19:20   semicolon or whatever and it doesn't [TS]

01:19:22   help you out it doesn't it doesn't say [TS]

01:19:24   by the way I think it's because you have [TS]

01:19:25   a nun terminate string constant or by [TS]

01:19:26   the way I think you have you know you [TS]

01:19:28   didn't realize this was a continuation [TS]

01:19:30   of the previous line but it actually is [TS]

01:19:32   that's that's another example of making [TS]

01:19:34   programming language friendlier for [TS]

01:19:36   programmers because we all know what [TS]

01:19:37   it's like when you get some obscure MS [TS]

01:19:39   you get four you're at that error [TS]

01:19:40   message makes no sense what is the [TS]

01:19:41   actual error especially the languages in [TS]

01:19:43   the compiled is that word just the sub [TS]

01:19:44   languages realize the implementation the [TS]

01:19:45   compilers they will just plow forward [TS]

01:19:48   and give you eight billion messages and [TS]

01:19:49   you got to like go to the first one or [TS]

01:19:51   the last one or try to figure out what [TS]

01:19:53   was the actual error before this thing [TS]

01:19:55   went totally off the rails and the [TS]

01:19:56   parser was completely confused and it [TS]

01:19:57   had no idea what was going on you know [TS]

01:19:59   so I think make [TS]

01:20:03   language as high level as you want [TS]

01:20:04   high-level programming languages are [TS]

01:20:05   great but English is not the way to do [TS]

01:20:07   that that was that was a blind alley so [TS]

01:20:09   that's why I'm one of the ways I'm not [TS]

01:20:12   disappointed that HyperCard went by the [TS]

01:20:13   wayside and we got things like web [TS]

01:20:15   programming where it's using a [TS]

01:20:17   high-level language but it's not like [TS]

01:20:19   English and there a lot of things [TS]

01:20:20   provided for you you know HTML is easier [TS]

01:20:23   than doing your own screen drawing using [TS]

01:20:24   core graphics or whatever although the [TS]

01:20:26   canvas element starts confusing that a [TS]

01:20:27   little bit but I think the web is a [TS]

01:20:30   better example of a programming [TS]

01:20:33   environment that allows more people to [TS]

01:20:35   be programmers but I don't think anyone [TS]

01:20:36   would argue that programming JavaScript [TS]

01:20:39   for the web is not real programming yeah [TS]

01:20:43   that's what I have to say about the [TS]

01:20:46   death of HyperCard the death of [TS]

01:20:49   HyperCard my heart had to die didn't [TS]

01:20:52   have to die as a nothing less if the [TS]

01:20:53   EPPICard if I heard he lived on would be [TS]

01:20:56   fine that the article if I wasn't [TS]

01:20:58   insulting conspiracy theories about how [TS]

01:21:00   Apple doesn't want people to be able to [TS]

01:21:02   make their own programs and how [TS]

01:21:04   HyperCard empower the users but Apple is [TS]

01:21:07   all about not empowering them I think [TS]

01:21:09   Apple as a company has come to the [TS]

01:21:11   realization that were all not gonna be [TS]

01:21:13   programmers came to that realization [TS]

01:21:14   long ago and so it's not so concerned [TS]

01:21:17   with making yeah [TS]

01:21:19   making programming environments that [TS]

01:21:20   everyone can use ready to talk about [TS]

01:21:26   Lego Star Wars Lego Star Wars the [TS]

01:21:28   Complete Saga the Complete Saga so there [TS]

01:21:32   were a while ago not sure how many weeks [TS]

01:21:36   ago it was we discussed getting a Wii [TS]

01:21:41   and one of the games that you [TS]

01:21:47   recommended was this Star Wars the the [TS]

01:21:52   official name is Lego Star Wars the [TS]

01:21:55   Complete Saga is a Wii game it's also [TS]

01:21:59   available for PlayStation 3 and Xbox and [TS]

01:22:01   tendo DS apparently even for the Mac did [TS]

01:22:05   you know that I did so this game I guess [TS]

01:22:12   collects a whole series of other games [TS]

01:22:15   that came out [TS]

01:22:16   before it it's you know it's a very [TS]

01:22:21   popular game for Wii and it's very cheap [TS]

01:22:23   as far as games in general go it's like [TS]

01:22:26   on Amazon and again this will be in the [TS]

01:22:29   show notes and the show note the URL for [TS]

01:22:31   the show notes is five by five TV slash [TS]

01:22:33   hypercritical slash 47 is 1718 bucks if [TS]

01:22:39   you have Amazon Prime that's it 8:17 77 [TS]

01:22:42   is the price in there today [TS]

01:22:44   415 customer reviews and it's got four [TS]

01:22:48   and a half stars so I got this thing [TS]

01:22:52   loaded it up so fun game fun little game [TS]

01:22:57   there's an adventure you can do or you [TS]

01:22:59   could just like you said you and just [TS]

01:23:00   run around and smash up little bots that [TS]

01:23:02   respond endlessly are you playing it or [TS]

01:23:05   is your son playing I have not I've not [TS]

01:23:07   in yet introduce it to him it's probably [TS]

01:23:09   going to be introduced a couple days on [TS]

01:23:12   Christmas so have you bought it like [TS]

01:23:15   playing playing the game like as in [TS]

01:23:16   advancing through no I just ran around [TS]

01:23:18   and you don't mess around with a little [TS]

01:23:19   bit I think there's a two-player mode I [TS]

01:23:22   think you very like yeah but just get to [TS]

01:23:24   wiimotes and you're both run around [TS]

01:23:25   right so I did my wife and I you know it [TS]

01:23:27   looked at it to see if it was something [TS]

01:23:29   he he would do or would be interested in [TS]

01:23:31   doing or would be appropriate and so [TS]

01:23:35   would you don't get it seemed like you [TS]

01:23:37   didn't get to pick who you are you're [TS]

01:23:39   just these just the two guys Anakin and [TS]

01:23:43   you run around and smash things and well [TS]

01:23:46   you know you unlock things eventually [TS]

01:23:47   and you can play as every character in [TS]

01:23:49   the entire universe you have to like buy [TS]

01:23:51   them with virtual in-game currency that [TS]

01:23:52   you find you know I'm right it's all [TS]

01:23:55   that unlockable stuff and so the things [TS]

01:23:57   I mentioned last time that I want you [TS]

01:23:58   can remote-control c-3po make them [TS]

01:24:01   unlock doors and make little droids do [TS]

01:24:03   things it's a neat idea it's a great [TS]

01:24:05   very cool game and the thing I was so [TS]

01:24:09   surprised about when I got this game a [TS]

01:24:10   little bit for kids I was hit the first [TS]

01:24:13   the only barrier really to play in this [TS]

01:24:14   game successfully is grasping the [TS]

01:24:17   concept that you move the little thump [TS]

01:24:19   stick around on the guy runs which [TS]

01:24:20   actually is a pretty significant leap [TS]

01:24:22   that I know my adults have not made that [TS]

01:24:24   leap yet but kids kids once the kids get [TS]

01:24:27   it they they will you know they will get [TS]

01:24:28   it and that'll be it you won't have to [TS]

01:24:30   but until they get it it can be [TS]

01:24:31   frustrating them to see the little man [TS]

01:24:32   on the screen and not quite understand [TS]

01:24:34   what they have to do with their body to [TS]

01:24:35   make the little man move and wavin that [TS]

01:24:37   Wiimote around to make light say around [TS]

01:24:39   is great because they'll figure that out [TS]

01:24:40   on their own right but you still got to [TS]

01:24:42   make the guy run around and this jump [TS]

01:24:43   but do you find is it easier for you to [TS]

01:24:45   wave the controller around to make a [TS]

01:24:48   lightsaber because I found it easier [TS]

01:24:49   just using controller did ya we're old [TS]

01:24:51   school we use the buttons but I've found [TS]

01:24:53   that kids like to wave it it's more fun [TS]

01:24:56   you know and they're not so concerned [TS]

01:24:57   with the max they weren't brought up in [TS]

01:24:59   the unforgiving world of actual arcade [TS]

01:25:01   games or a teacher quarters or even like [TS]

01:25:03   early a Nintendo games where it's just [TS]

01:25:05   you know we're all about efficiency [TS]

01:25:07   precision because we're we have to must [TS]

01:25:09   battle the machine but yeah it's a it's [TS]

01:25:10   a kinder gentler word because these but [TS]

01:25:12   the thing I wanted to say about this [TS]

01:25:13   game is I was shocked by how difficult [TS]

01:25:16   it is even for me as an adult [TS]

01:25:18   gamer to figure out what they wanted me [TS]

01:25:21   to do next to progress in the game yes [TS]

01:25:24   not none of the individual tasks were [TS]

01:25:26   ever difficult but oh my Jesus is [TS]

01:25:27   supposed to be a game for kids you [TS]

01:25:28   should be doing the thing you know like [TS]

01:25:30   think about the early levels in a Mario [TS]

01:25:33   or Zelda game they they they're so great [TS]

01:25:35   about holding your hand and saying you [TS]

01:25:38   know this is how you jump and here's a [TS]

01:25:40   fun thing it's not like a demo level [TS]

01:25:41   like the game itself ramps you in it [TS]

01:25:43   says we're gonna do something that's [TS]

01:25:44   going to teach you how to jump without [TS]

01:25:45   feeling like you're learning how to jump [TS]

01:25:47   but unbeknownst to you by doing this fun [TS]

01:25:49   thing you were learning how jumping [TS]

01:25:50   works and then they add to it okay now [TS]

01:25:52   here's a double jumping works now here's [TS]

01:25:53   how sliding works now here's how you use [TS]

01:25:55   your items in Zelda because I use your [TS]

01:25:57   sort you know it builds and builds and [TS]

01:25:58   builds until you have the skills and [TS]

01:25:59   they lead you through here's the next [TS]

01:26:01   thing we think you should do oh you [TS]

01:26:02   should go over there and do that or this [TS]

01:26:03   is lighting up you know very clear never [TS]

01:26:06   you never like stuck there going I don't [TS]

01:26:07   know what to do next right at its best [TS]

01:26:10   great Nintendo games and other games and [TS]

01:26:12   especially kids games should lead you [TS]

01:26:14   through and let you know to further [TS]

01:26:16   progress that's love you must do this [TS]

01:26:17   now star wars lego game unbelievably [TS]

01:26:20   feel no compunction about just letting [TS]

01:26:23   you sit there and go geez I have no idea [TS]

01:26:25   what I'm just in this room I guess yeah [TS]

01:26:27   I'm just I can't get out of this room [TS]

01:26:28   none of these doors are open I have no [TS]

01:26:30   freaking idea [TS]

01:26:31   nothing is glowing no little hint is [TS]

01:26:33   appearing you know and I know like [TS]

01:26:35   serious gamers hate that where it's like [TS]

01:26:36   you've been you've been idle for two [TS]

01:26:37   minutes and some little character comes [TS]

01:26:38   out and hey I really think you should go [TS]

01:26:40   see but like don't don't give me the [TS]

01:26:42   hints its baby but this [TS]

01:26:44   is a game kids I thought tell them geez [TS]

01:26:46   tell them what they should do and you [TS]

01:26:48   know like especially the beginning I [TS]

01:26:50   assume that's what kind of game it would [TS]

01:26:52   be like Jesus can't have a bug or [TS]

01:26:53   something because it's not it's not [TS]

01:26:56   clear what we're supposed to do next [TS]

01:26:57   yeah you know as a gamer I can go [TS]

01:26:59   through and figure out what they want me [TS]

01:27:00   to all you got to go up to this torch [TS]

01:27:01   and use the Force to yank the pieces of [TS]

01:27:03   the torch off and that it explicably [TS]

01:27:04   makes the wheel of a car and bring the [TS]

01:27:07   wheel of the car over to the car how [TS]

01:27:08   would you ever figure that out it's like [TS]

01:27:10   the Hitchhiker's Guide text adventure [TS]

01:27:11   this you know there's no rhyme or reason [TS]

01:27:13   there's no logical way you could suss [TS]

01:27:14   out if I do this this will make some [TS]

01:27:19   item that's totally in Congress that [TS]

01:27:21   will allow me to advance in a level I [TS]

01:27:23   mean as a gamer eventually you learn [TS]

01:27:25   I'll use the Force on everything break [TS]

01:27:27   everything up anytime you see destroy [TS]

01:27:28   everything hit everything with your [TS]

01:27:30   sword and I guess kids will figure that [TS]

01:27:31   out too but it's kind of cruel to make [TS]

01:27:33   them basically use a brute-force attack [TS]

01:27:36   to figure out how to progress in the [TS]

01:27:38   game [TS]

01:27:38   I know I didn't get any complaints about [TS]

01:27:39   this for my son because what does he [TS]

01:27:40   knows one of the first games he's played [TS]

01:27:41   but I would say that is the biggest [TS]

01:27:43   failing of the Star Wars Lego games that [TS]

01:27:46   there is not enough hand-holding in [TS]

01:27:48   terms of progression for the kids so [TS]

01:27:50   when you're playing with your son I [TS]

01:27:52   advise you to figure out what to do next [TS]

01:27:55   otherwise he will get bored running [TS]

01:27:58   around the same exact spot because he'll [TS]

01:27:59   want to like what when do I get to play [TS]

01:28:01   as as you know Luke in the flight outfit [TS]

01:28:04   when do I get to fly an x-wing window 8 [TS]

01:28:05   to wrap around the snow speeders and you [TS]

01:28:07   won't be able to do that unless you [TS]

01:28:08   unlock stuff so you will someone will [TS]

01:28:10   have to progress through the game to [TS]

01:28:11   unlock stuff to be able to play all [TS]

01:28:13   these things and whether that's you or [TS]

01:28:14   him it's worth doing because you can't [TS]

01:28:18   get the maximum benefit out of the game [TS]

01:28:19   without plowing through these very [TS]

01:28:22   obscure strange the non helpful gameplay [TS]

01:28:27   things that you have to do ok then this [TS]

01:28:35   was your topic with Lego Star Wars but [TS]

01:28:36   you're just saying [TS]

01:28:37   thumbs up for it but you did know I [TS]

01:28:38   didn't I didn't say thumbs up for it [TS]

01:28:40   did I say those that I said uh yes it [TS]

01:28:43   seems oh I haven't I haven't put it put [TS]

01:28:45   in front of them yet super for his 4th [TS]

01:28:49   birthday he got this big ego [TS]

01:28:52   he's really into really into like Batman [TS]

01:28:55   it's [TS]

01:28:55   and superheroes in general Star Wars is [TS]

01:28:58   such a distant third maybe third you [TS]

01:29:04   know he's way more into the superhero [TS]

01:29:06   stuff [TS]

01:29:07   so his birthday you know he got this my [TS]

01:29:11   mom got him this the Batcave thing he's [TS]

01:29:14   got the little figures he's you know so [TS]

01:29:16   right now that was like the big thing [TS]

01:29:17   and we didn't want to have that and the [TS]

01:29:21   we and all happening his birthday he's [TS]

01:29:23   you know his birthday is close enough to [TS]

01:29:25   Christmas so he separated that out and [TS]

01:29:28   uh and then my father in London and and [TS]

01:29:33   that side of the femme then that now [TS]

01:29:34   they got him one of these geo tracks [TS]

01:29:36   Batman Geo Trax thing so with the we may [TS]

01:29:38   not even be brought out for Christmas [TS]

01:29:40   who knows he doesn't even know it even [TS]

01:29:42   know what it's there he knows who Mario [TS]

01:29:44   is can you imagine if when you were a [TS]

01:29:47   kid you knew that this was happening [TS]

01:29:49   first of all I don't think it was [TS]

01:29:50   happening with my parents but I do the [TS]

01:29:52   same thing where we will buy things to [TS]

01:29:54   our children but not give them to them [TS]

01:29:57   and just sort of like keep them in [TS]

01:29:58   storage like oh well this is you know [TS]

01:29:59   this isn't even in storage is right [TS]

01:30:01   there under under the TV in the [TS]

01:30:02   entertainment center yeah or you know [TS]

01:30:04   hiding in plain sight I think whereas if [TS]

01:30:06   I knew for example that my parents had [TS]

01:30:08   bought the Millennium Falcon playset and [TS]

01:30:10   thought yeah we don't give him to this [TS]

01:30:12   photos wait a little while maybe give [TS]

01:30:13   him his birthday or something I would [TS]

01:30:14   have gone nuts knowing that's in the [TS]

01:30:16   house and they weren't giving it to me [TS]

01:30:17   actually happened they would just [TS]

01:30:19   actually buy things and give the kids [TS]

01:30:20   these days seem like they have more toys [TS]

01:30:22   than then you know my children had more [TS]

01:30:26   toys by the age of two than I'd ever [TS]

01:30:27   owned in my entire life [TS]

01:30:29   very well said absolutely right there's [TS]

01:30:31   there's this video remember this guy who [TS]

01:30:33   had trained his dog uh and he would put [TS]

01:30:37   he would like balance the treat on the [TS]

01:30:39   edge of its nose and he would have you [TS]

01:30:42   know this amazing treat right in front [TS]

01:30:44   and he would like make it walk forward [TS]

01:30:46   and then walk backwards away from the [TS]

01:30:48   treat and then lay down and all this [TS]

01:30:50   stuff knowing that the treat was [TS]

01:30:53   centimeters away from the mouth of the [TS]

01:30:55   dog and uh you know it's it it you're [TS]

01:31:01   almost saying it's like that but the [TS]

01:31:02   kids they don't have any idea they don't [TS]

01:31:03   care they're just happy to get it [TS]

01:31:05   whenever it's there and and it's [TS]

01:31:06   certainly not like [TS]

01:31:08   he has no toys you know we have a room [TS]

01:31:11   of toys I don't even know where these [TS]

01:31:14   came from I don't know how he they [TS]

01:31:15   they're here yeah and when we complain [TS]

01:31:18   about this I find myself complaining us [TS]

01:31:20   all time it's like you know people say [TS]

01:31:21   especially people who don't have kids [TS]

01:31:22   will say well you know the toys don't by [TS]

01:31:26   themselves you the kids aren't buying [TS]

01:31:28   the toys you are buying against you kid [TS]

01:31:29   if your kid has too many toys it's [TS]

01:31:31   because you're my mom made toys and [TS]

01:31:33   there is definitely truth to that [TS]

01:31:34   although I also think that the the [TS]

01:31:36   phenomenon a relative's buying toys has [TS]

01:31:37   also gotten worse in that when I was a [TS]

01:31:40   kid you know my grandparents would get [TS]

01:31:41   me one toy and I'll barely be that [TS]

01:31:43   interested in what that toy was or [TS]

01:31:45   whatever but now the grandparents want [TS]

01:31:46   to get like I'm teen toys all he's now [TS]

01:31:48   he doesn't want this does you want that [TS]

01:31:49   you know that's just that's what [TS]

01:31:51   grandparents do and that's what we all [TS]

01:31:52   do that we all it especially for nerds I [TS]

01:31:55   I keep meaning to set up all the Legos [TS]

01:31:58   than my son's owns in his room assuming [TS]

01:32:00   they will fit in his room and photograph [TS]

01:32:02   them just just to catalog the madness [TS]

01:32:05   because when I was a kid all of my Legos [TS]

01:32:07   fit into a single tough steel toolbox [TS]

01:32:11   retainer that was about like a foot and [TS]

01:32:13   a half high six inches deep and that was [TS]

01:32:15   all the Legos I had like I had like a [TS]

01:32:17   bucket you want to play with your Legos [TS]

01:32:18   dump them out that's it [TS]

01:32:20   that's what you gotta and that that and [TS]

01:32:22   everything I made had to be pretty good [TS]

01:32:24   at all if I had one more wing piece I [TS]

01:32:26   could do this but I don't [TS]

01:32:27   that's right here like everything I made [TS]

01:32:29   had to be there built around the limited [TS]

01:32:31   set of you know space Legos that I had [TS]

01:32:33   right you know you remember that movie [TS]

01:32:35   you remember that movie Firefox with [TS]

01:32:37   Clint Eastwood yep aggression yeah that [TS]

01:32:40   okay so I wanted to make the Firefox toy [TS]

01:32:44   and I had some of those you know I don't [TS]

01:32:46   know if they said if he made these [TS]

01:32:47   things there were flat panels like you [TS]

01:32:49   could they were very very thin and you [TS]

01:32:51   would just put them on top of a another [TS]

01:32:53   surface and they were just flat and you [TS]

01:32:56   know I never had enough to cover the [TS]

01:32:57   surface of the plane yeah I didn't have [TS]

01:33:00   enough nd pieces to do two wings that [TS]

01:33:01   bent down one big bendy piece and one [TS]

01:33:04   begin the tour tortures of the Damned so [TS]

01:33:07   a lot of the reason I think that we find [TS]

01:33:09   ourselves the children way too many toys [TS]

01:33:10   this and how it's like compensating for [TS]

01:33:12   our childhoods because we can't help it [TS]

01:33:13   like I'm buying these Legos for my kids [TS]

01:33:15   but Jesus I'm fine it's half buying [TS]

01:33:17   Legos for myself and now I don't I don't [TS]

01:33:18   build these Legos I make my son build [TS]

01:33:20   every single Lego set himself the only [TS]

01:33:21   thing I do [TS]

01:33:22   when we sit down to do Lego says I will [TS]

01:33:24   find the pieces of the inventory for [TS]

01:33:26   each step because he has trouble finding [TS]

01:33:27   them and the big thing and you know [TS]

01:33:28   we're going to divide labor I find the [TS]

01:33:30   pieces I put them out for you he assign [TS]

01:33:31   has to figure out where they go and [TS]

01:33:32   assemble them all himself but yeah a lot [TS]

01:33:35   of it is nerds buying nerd toys for [TS]

01:33:37   their kids that they wish they had when [TS]

01:33:39   they were kids and that's part of the [TS]

01:33:40   reason you know it's our own fault why [TS]

01:33:42   our kids end up with too many toys but [TS]

01:33:45   so getting back to buying toys and not [TS]

01:33:46   giving to them I mean maybe that that's [TS]

01:33:49   a little bit better than just giving [TS]

01:33:50   them too many toys at least we're [TS]

01:33:51   recognizing they have too many toys [TS]

01:33:52   we're trying to do something about it [TS]

01:33:54   we're working on it you know it's a [TS]

01:33:55   12-step program but when I when I got [TS]

01:33:57   skyward when I got Skyward Sword from my [TS]

01:33:59   son he was dying to get that game uh and [TS]

01:34:01   and my wife is like ah you should give [TS]

01:34:03   that to him for as one of his Christmas [TS]

01:34:04   presents and but I wanted to plan it [TS]

01:34:07   before Christmas that one's good to him [TS]

01:34:08   so I bought Skyward Sword and I put it [TS]

01:34:09   with all the other Wii games you know in [TS]

01:34:12   the entertainment center slotted in with [TS]

01:34:13   all the little white other white DVD [TS]

01:34:15   shaped cases and it sat there for like [TS]

01:34:17   three weeks while we were playing [TS]

01:34:19   another game because when I play one [TS]

01:34:20   game at once we were finishing up some [TS]

01:34:21   other game nice you never noticed it [TS]

01:34:23   it's amazing the kids don't you know he [TS]

01:34:26   can read he could have gone over there [TS]

01:34:27   and read the name on the spine of every [TS]

01:34:29   single wee game and seen Legend of Zelda [TS]

01:34:31   Skyward Sword he would have flipped out [TS]

01:34:32   but that was there for weeks never even [TS]

01:34:34   noticed it kids these days yeah maybe [TS]

01:34:38   they will listen back to this and be [TS]

01:34:39   shocked that the the torture we put them [TS]

01:34:42   through but since they're not so starved [TS]

01:34:44   for toys like there's no way that a [TS]

01:34:46   Millennium Falcon place that could have [TS]

01:34:47   been hidden my house and we not found it [TS]

01:34:48   at at that age someone the chat room [TS]

01:34:52   pasted in the URL to the Lord of the [TS]

01:34:54   Rings Legos coming in summer 2012 right [TS]

01:34:56   yeah I'm excited about that too [TS]

01:34:59   I'm ashamed to say my son is not excited [TS]

01:35:03   I showed him the animated movie of The [TS]

01:35:05   Hobbit but uh that's about it that's all [TS]

01:35:11   we have for today's episode because / [TS]

01:35:13   we're wandering into composing on one [TS]

01:35:17   tech related topics but yeah it's the [TS]

01:35:19   holidays folks you just got to give [TS]

01:35:21   allowances for stuff like that and we [TS]

01:35:24   people have asked well again I'll [TS]

01:35:26   reiterate this we have been asked if we [TS]

01:35:28   will be doing shows next week and in [TS]

01:35:29   fact John has agreed to do a show each [TS]

01:35:32   day of the week [TS]

01:35:34   heck so about these Monday through [TS]

01:35:36   Friday of next week you can tune in and [TS]

01:35:38   catch John live from 8 a.m. to to 8 p.m. [TS]

01:35:43   I gotta get as many shows in as possible [TS]

01:35:44   for Gruber records again that's right [TS]

01:35:47   because you mentioned this is to you [TS]

01:35:50   know quickly uh unseating John Gruber s [TS]

01:35:55   the man with the most shows actually [TS]

01:35:57   it's not even good not that's not gonna [TS]

01:35:59   be older than my older brother in five [TS]

01:36:01   years just wait oh I suppose I suppose [TS]

01:36:05   he could stop recording for two and a [TS]

01:36:06   half years and then I could surpass him [TS]

01:36:08   but I don't see that he'll don't give me [TS]

01:36:09   any ideas it's bad enough that he takes [TS]

01:36:11   these vacations yeah how dare he yeah [TS]

01:36:14   well I guess that is it then for this [TS]

01:36:17   episode and uh this is the last episode [TS]

01:36:21   before Christmas but not the last [TS]

01:36:26   episode of 2011 we will have at least at [TS]

01:36:30   least one more you're gonna go get that [TS]

01:36:31   call right what call is that phone just [TS]

01:36:35   rang is that not you not me that's very [TS]

01:36:37   alright who know I don't know there's [TS]

01:36:39   all everything's ringing here okay [TS]

01:36:41   Sabine Reaper's look at that I have my [TS]

01:36:47   fat because we have this landline this [TS]

01:36:49   is funny we have a landline it's not [TS]

01:36:51   actually landline it's through the cable [TS]

01:36:54   modem you know their service they give [TS]

01:36:55   you a phone line so II don't that never [TS]

01:36:58   use it we never receive incoming calls [TS]

01:37:00   on it we only sometimes call people so I [TS]

01:37:03   have my printer wall in one printer fax [TS]

01:37:06   machine thing plugged into it at all [TS]

01:37:09   times and I have it set to answer [TS]

01:37:11   immediately so because that we don't [TS]

01:37:14   even at you know no but nobody calls us [TS]

01:37:16   on this thing so hopefully anybody who [TS]

01:37:19   would dare call it is going to be [TS]

01:37:21   assaulted by the fax machine they [TS]

01:37:25   installed hit by beeps yeah yeah it's a [TS]

01:37:29   war it's a in case anybody wants to know [TS]

01:37:31   it's an epson workforce 633 you can do [TS]

01:37:36   this remote scanning you can send faxes [TS]

01:37:39   to it so if you need to send a fax you [TS]

01:37:40   can just print you just hit print and [TS]

01:37:42   it'll little fax right from the print [TS]

01:37:45   dialog in Mac OS 10 no no additional [TS]

01:37:47   software [TS]

01:37:47   sorry did you know about that kind of [TS]

01:37:49   thing I did as I never want to do actual [TS]

01:37:52   real paper facts I always want to do the [TS]

01:37:53   magic print and then it magically faxes [TS]

01:37:55   up yeah I prefer to do things over email [TS]

01:37:57   with with PDF and things like that but [TS]

01:38:01   when when you are required to fax [TS]

01:38:03   something that that's the way to do it [TS]

01:38:04   and it scans like that to which steams [TS]

01:38:06   it doesn't doesn't seem possible like [TS]

01:38:08   that that's one of these things all the [TS]

01:38:09   stuff all the cool toys that we have all [TS]

01:38:11   the neat stuff you do airplane [TS]

01:38:13   everything else the idea that you can [TS]

01:38:15   print right to a fax it's like mind [TS]

01:38:18   boggling scan over the way because you [TS]

01:38:21   don't have to plug in it's all it's all [TS]

01:38:23   Wi-Fi print directly to a papyrus scroll [TS]

01:38:25   that's that's right [TS]

01:38:27   it would chisel your message on a little [TS]

01:38:28   pyramid is very cool stuff all right [TS]

01:38:33   John we'll have a great have a great [TS]

01:38:34   Christmas you're tuned in and Happy [TS]

01:38:38   Hanukkah [TS]

01:38:51   you [TS]