52: Marked for Deletion


00:00:00   [Music] [TS]

00:00:02   this is hypercritical a weekly talkshow [TS]

00:00:04   ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:06   the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:08   technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

00:00:10   so perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

00:00:12   about at least not by my co-host John [TS]

00:00:14   siracusa i'm dan benjamin today is [TS]

00:00:17   january 27th 2012 it's Friday this is [TS]

00:00:21   episode number 52 we would like to thank [TS]

00:00:24   our sponsors today source bits comm [TS]

00:00:27   software design and development services [TS]

00:00:29   for iOS Android Mac in the web and my [TS]

00:00:32   note an intuitive mind mapping tool for [TS]

00:00:35   Mac and iOS will tell you more about [TS]

00:00:36   those as the program continues we also [TS]

00:00:39   want to say thanks very much to vid me [TS]

00:00:40   up comm for the bandwidth for this [TS]

00:00:43   episode vid me up is a free service that [TS]

00:00:44   allows you to create your own video cite [TS]

00:00:46   your videos your branding vid me up comm [TS]

00:00:53   hello Jon siracusa of Massachusetts [TS]

00:00:57   hello Daniel Benjamin of many places in [TS]

00:01:00   the South hmm but originally the [TS]

00:01:03   Northeast it's complicated I get it how [TS]

00:01:06   to address you can we put this uh this [TS]

00:01:10   optical illusion in the shownotes no I [TS]

00:01:12   think it's not relevant ok now I don't [TS]

00:01:15   want to know what it is so if you want [TS]

00:01:16   to know what it is maybe we'll discuss [TS]

00:01:18   it in the after dark ok I will put it in [TS]

00:01:20   the show notes and we will not discuss [TS]

00:01:23   it so alright [TS]

00:01:25   some quick follow-up from video game [TS]

00:01:28   controllers several shows ago still [TS]

00:01:30   getting links about that these this one [TS]

00:01:33   from I Anna skeller I hope I did a good [TS]

00:01:36   job with that he gave a couple of neat [TS]

00:01:38   links that I thought were worth sending [TS]

00:01:42   out to the listeners but I didn't want [TS]

00:01:44   to put them in the show notes for this [TS]

00:01:45   show because the show is not going to be [TS]

00:01:47   about video game controllers so you're [TS]

00:01:49   safe um so what I did was I put them in [TS]

00:01:52   the show notes to the first episode we [TS]

00:01:54   did it by video game controllers which [TS]

00:01:55   was episode 49 pinching the harmonica I [TS]

00:01:57   put them as bonus links at the very [TS]

00:01:59   bottom of the show notes so to get to [TS]

00:02:01   them you can go to the show notes for [TS]

00:02:03   this episode and the very first one will [TS]

00:02:05   be a link to episode 49 and then go to [TS]

00:02:07   the bottom get those and he it's work of [TS]

00:02:09   other people on the web he found a [TS]

00:02:11   poster showing evolution of video game [TS]

00:02:13   controller [TS]

00:02:13   at pop chart labs calm you can buy it [TS]

00:02:16   but does also need to just look at [TS]

00:02:17   someone had a periodic table of [TS]

00:02:20   controllers that showed you know [TS]

00:02:21   periodical table layout with and it just [TS]

00:02:23   shows the buttons which is kind of neat [TS]

00:02:24   instead of showing the controllers just [TS]

00:02:25   shows the button Arrangements on them [TS]

00:02:27   and there's an actual blog on tumblr [TS]

00:02:29   called a bunch of stuff about game [TS]

00:02:31   controllers and the title is accurate so [TS]

00:02:35   there's three links check them out we're [TS]

00:02:39   not talking about video controllers [TS]

00:02:40   today today we have a whole mess of [TS]

00:02:43   follow up from the last episode where we [TS]

00:02:46   discussed the iBooks Author announcement [TS]

00:02:49   and I really hope I can get through this [TS]

00:02:51   in time to not have a very long show [TS]

00:02:55   today okay so the impression I get from [TS]

00:03:00   feedback is that people thought I was [TS]

00:03:03   more pessimistic about this iBooks [TS]

00:03:04   Author thing than I have been about [TS]

00:03:06   other recent Apple topics and I guess [TS]

00:03:12   that's probably true I'd probably have a [TS]

00:03:15   background in history and the holy books [TS]

00:03:17   thing that has me coming at this issue [TS]

00:03:20   from a different angle than most people [TS]

00:03:22   uh you were you learn ebooks guy for a [TS]

00:03:26   while yeah just a little while but you [TS]

00:03:28   know I do have that history and that [TS]

00:03:31   probably influences how I see things [TS]

00:03:33   and the same thing with people who were [TS]

00:03:35   actually in the education market they [TS]

00:03:36   see things differently than I do coming [TS]

00:03:38   from there from their perspective I [TS]

00:03:40   think mostly I was I was trying to [TS]

00:03:43   mostly come at it from the perspective [TS]

00:03:44   of an apple watcher and seeing you know [TS]

00:03:46   the way Apple conducts its business and [TS]

00:03:51   strategies that have worked in the past [TS]

00:03:53   for Apple and other companies so while I [TS]

00:03:57   was discussing the stuff in last show [TS]

00:03:59   people were writing things for various [TS]

00:04:00   publications I put some shown put some [TS]

00:04:02   links in the show notes to a couple [TS]

00:04:05   people that agreed with me one was a [TS]

00:04:07   serenity Caldwell at Macworld she wrote [TS]

00:04:10   an article called holding out for an [TS]

00:04:11   epub hero where she laments all the [TS]

00:04:13   things that a book's author is not [TS]

00:04:16   that's really neither here nor there [TS]

00:04:19   about whether iBooks Author is a good [TS]

00:04:21   idea for Apple to do but it's kind of a [TS]

00:04:23   distillation of the sentiment that we're [TS]

00:04:24   discussing last time that people wanted [TS]

00:04:26   Apple to do [TS]

00:04:27   one thing an applicant something [TS]

00:04:28   different iBooks Author is very clearly [TS]

00:04:29   not that thing that people wanted the [TS]

00:04:32   you know generic epub editing tool and [TS]

00:04:35   so those people are still waiting and [TS]

00:04:39   it's another one like I'll get to a [TS]

00:04:41   little bit later also on Mac world [TS]

00:04:43   certainly also did a wish list for [TS]

00:04:46   before the announcement was made for [TS]

00:04:48   things that she hoped Apple would [TS]

00:04:50   announce you can see how what was [TS]

00:04:52   announced did not satisfy that wish list [TS]

00:04:54   so the main one of the main topics of [TS]

00:04:58   objection that people brought up in [TS]

00:05:00   emails was why do I keep talking about [TS]

00:05:03   the format or why is everyone talking [TS]

00:05:04   about the format who cares who cares but [TS]

00:05:06   the file format that's missing for the [TS]

00:05:08   forest for the trees that's not the [TS]

00:05:09   thing that's important to be looking at [TS]

00:05:12   I think the reason everyone's talking [TS]

00:05:15   about format is because I mean I think [TS]

00:05:19   we discussed this last show that the [TS]

00:05:20   e-book market is and has always been in [TS]

00:05:24   desperate need of some unifying format [TS]

00:05:27   like the idea is that format wars [TS]

00:05:30   arguing over who you know what format [TS]

00:05:33   the the data is in and who controls that [TS]

00:05:35   format and and who you know trying to [TS]

00:05:38   control an industry by controlling the [TS]

00:05:40   file format is generally viewed as not a [TS]

00:05:42   good thing so we didn't like it when it [TS]

00:05:44   was like blu-ray vs. HD DVD and no [TS]

00:05:47   matter who won you know from consumers [TS]

00:05:49   perspectives like look good that you [TS]

00:05:50   know I don't their advantages to one [TS]

00:05:52   side of the other and they're both [TS]

00:05:53   proprietary formats owned by different [TS]

00:05:54   consortiums of people but from a [TS]

00:05:56   consumers perspective you don't know how [TS]

00:05:57   to deal with like imagine if they had [TS]

00:05:58   both one and imagine a physical media [TS]

00:06:00   wasn't on its way out [TS]

00:06:01   we'd be struggling through this world [TS]

00:06:03   where there's ten different formats for [TS]

00:06:04   movies and you have to have players to [TS]

00:06:06   play multiple discs and you can't keep [TS]

00:06:07   track of who can play what in common [TS]

00:06:09   formats for digital content is good for [TS]

00:06:13   everybody and consumers hate it when [TS]

00:06:15   that's not the case and the industry in [TS]

00:06:17   general suffers for it although it's [TS]

00:06:19   just the constant trend of like why do [TS]

00:06:21   these format Wars exist well the [TS]

00:06:23   companies are is like ah we can get our [TS]

00:06:24   format to become the de-facto format [TS]

00:06:26   then we control the format and then we [TS]

00:06:28   have this incredible lever to control [TS]

00:06:29   the industry you know what I mean and I [TS]

00:06:33   think everyone agrees that's a bad thing [TS]

00:06:35   all right no one is out there saying we [TS]

00:06:37   need to have as many competing formats [TS]

00:06:38   for music as possible [TS]

00:06:40   completely incompatible that way it's [TS]

00:06:42   competition and you know that that's how [TS]

00:06:44   the marketplace is healthy no we just [TS]

00:06:45   you know we want we don't want to deal [TS]

00:06:48   with that we just want to hear music we [TS]

00:06:49   just want to watch movies and Annie in [TS]

00:06:51   e-books we just want to read the books [TS]

00:06:53   we don't really care about the farmer [TS]

00:06:54   and now the people who are in the [TS]

00:06:55   industry are like well this format has [TS]

00:06:56   advantages over that format and this [TS]

00:06:57   format is controlled by a single vendor [TS]

00:06:59   and this is controlled by a consortium [TS]

00:07:00   all that other business in in general I [TS]

00:07:03   think we also all agree that all other [TS]

00:07:06   things being equal [TS]

00:07:07   certainly the format that's not [TS]

00:07:09   controlled by a single party or small [TS]

00:07:10   number of parties is better [TS]

00:07:12   unfortunately all other things usually [TS]

00:07:14   aren't equal it's very often the case [TS]

00:07:16   that the proprietary formats have [TS]

00:07:18   technical advantages that the open ones [TS]

00:07:20   don't so I found one specific objection [TS]

00:07:27   to this so Frank Malinowski took [TS]

00:07:33   objected to my position that in cases [TS]

00:07:37   where there is an existing proprietary [TS]

00:07:39   format from the market leader that the [TS]

00:07:42   best strategy the most successful [TS]

00:07:44   strategy is for everybody else but the [TS]

00:07:46   market leader to rally behind an open [TS]

00:07:48   standard because of each of the people [TS]

00:07:50   who are not the market leader tried to [TS]

00:07:51   promote their own proprietary standard [TS]

00:07:53   that none of them will have enough [TS]

00:07:54   critical mass or weight or influence to [TS]

00:07:57   overcome the market leader even if their [TS]

00:07:58   format is better and I think example I [TS]

00:08:01   gave was when a Internet Explorer was [TS]

00:08:04   the dominant browser and it had all [TS]

00:08:05   these ie only extensions everyone else [TS]

00:08:08   didn't try to field their own specific [TS]

00:08:10   Apple and Netscape extensions you know [TS]

00:08:13   or whatever they said well it's rally [TS]

00:08:15   behind web standards and together all of [TS]

00:08:17   us vs. AE with vs. AE versus IE maybe we [TS]

00:08:21   can you know win that and slowly that [TS]

00:08:22   has taken place over ours it also helps [TS]

00:08:24   that my constant update is browser for a [TS]

00:08:26   long time so Frank says these two [TS]

00:08:29   problems with with this argument first [TS]

00:08:31   problem is that I only gave that one [TS]

00:08:32   example that just you know ie versus [TS]

00:08:34   standard space web things he said I can [TS]

00:08:37   provide plenty of examples where this [TS]

00:08:40   the same strategy was tried and it [TS]

00:08:42   wasn't successful and the exact some [TS]

00:08:43   examples he gives her Microsoft Office [TS]

00:08:45   vs. OpenOffice iTunes Music Store vs. [TS]

00:08:49   plays for sure [TS]

00:08:49   OGG Vorbis or anything else Adobe PDF is [TS]

00:08:53   anything else my photos [TS]

00:08:54   versus GIMP and this exchange versus [TS]

00:08:56   open stuff h.264 vs. WebM goes onto [TS]

00:09:03   other examples I don't think they're as [TS]

00:09:04   strong as his opening lens and you can [TS]

00:09:08   gives iOS versus Android apps makes his [TS]

00:09:10   example started stronger Imus off as a [TS]

00:09:13   result in office a better example so my [TS]

00:09:15   response to this is to say you know so [TS]

00:09:18   he listed some examples and I think by [TS]

00:09:20   the time you get to his last one like [TS]

00:09:21   iOS apps versus Android it's like well [TS]

00:09:23   and her it is more open than iOS but [TS]

00:09:25   really they're both controlled by single [TS]

00:09:26   parties it's not like you know an entire [TS]

00:09:29   industry rallying behind Android to [TS]

00:09:31   fight iOS it kind of is in terms of the [TS]

00:09:33   carrier's wanting something customized [TS]

00:09:34   and stuff but like you know truthfully [TS]

00:09:36   Google controls Andrew no one else has [TS]

00:09:39   the the capability of forking Android [TS]

00:09:42   and developing it at the same pace the [TS]

00:09:44   Google does because they don't have [TS]

00:09:45   enough engineers and they're not the [TS]

00:09:46   ones who wrote you know so many [TS]

00:09:49   responses there are many many many more [TS]

00:09:51   examples than the ones he gave of where [TS]

00:09:53   a dominant proprietary format was [TS]

00:09:55   challenged by other proprietary formats [TS]

00:09:57   and the other ones were not able to [TS]

00:09:58   unseat it that's the common case is that [TS]

00:10:00   you know to some proprietary form it's [TS]

00:10:02   going to win and everyone's got their [TS]

00:10:03   you know WordPerfect files or right now [TS]

00:10:05   files or nicest writer files none of [TS]

00:10:07   them could unseat doc docx which was [TS]

00:10:09   also proprietary you know they all those [TS]

00:10:11   other competitors to Microsoft Word in [TS]

00:10:13   the olden days when there were more than [TS]

00:10:15   right when there was more than one word [TS]

00:10:16   processor out there none of them could [TS]

00:10:18   unseat ms-office and they all have their [TS]

00:10:22   own proprietary file formats the only [TS]

00:10:25   chance you can have is if everyone [TS]

00:10:27   rallies behind an open format OpenOffice [TS]

00:10:29   has not been successful to defeat [TS]

00:10:30   Microsoft Office mostly because I think [TS]

00:10:32   office suites are not that interesting [TS]

00:10:34   interesting or important anymore [TS]

00:10:36   and Microsoft's office is good enough [TS]

00:10:38   and is the standard so there's not a lot [TS]

00:10:39   of excitement around OpenOffice but uh [TS]

00:10:42   file you know the the pressure to go [TS]

00:10:45   open his for Microsoft to try to have a [TS]

00:10:47   more open file formal with the docx [TS]

00:10:48   business and we have things like PDF [TS]

00:10:50   that are not still controlled by a [TS]

00:10:52   single company but are also kind of open [TS]

00:10:54   standards that anyone can implement [TS]

00:10:55   unlike dot docx which she you know [TS]

00:10:57   anyone not anyone can implement even [TS]

00:10:59   though there's supposedly a kind of a [TS]

00:11:01   spec it's like you know you can't that [TS]

00:11:03   that file format is still controlled by [TS]

00:11:05   Microsoft and although Apple can try to [TS]

00:11:07   read [TS]

00:11:08   documents that can't read them all and [TS]

00:11:09   can't read them all well some more [TS]

00:11:11   examples of where you know I just gave [TS]

00:11:15   the one example of open versus closed [TS]

00:11:16   some more examples are like a tcp/ip [TS]

00:11:19   versus like Apple talk or NetBIOS or [TS]

00:11:21   whatever or the internet versus AOL [TS]

00:11:24   aware a well as people don't remember [TS]

00:11:26   this pea was massively dominant but we [TS]

00:11:29   all kind of knew that it's you know AOL [TS]

00:11:31   the biggest internet provider in the [TS]

00:11:33   entire United States versus everybody [TS]

00:11:35   else was behind the internet so alo is [TS]

00:11:37   one big rich company with lots of power [TS]

00:11:38   and everyone else rallied behind the [TS]

00:11:40   internet as opposed to everyone else [TS]

00:11:41   rallying behind geni or a world or [TS]

00:11:43   knocking names on other ones like all [TS]

00:11:47   those other proprietary things now the [TS]

00:11:49   only way you can unseat a big [TS]

00:11:50   proprietary leader is to get everybody [TS]

00:11:52   behind something that's not controlled [TS]

00:11:53   but by one party so in the chatroom was [TS]

00:11:56   saying what Al was dominant yes yes it [TS]

00:11:59   was dominant it used to be that event [TS]

00:12:02   you know a few nerds had internet access [TS]

00:12:04   and then if anybody else you knew who [TS]

00:12:06   wasn't intending to access that away Oh [TS]

00:12:07   al those were dark days indeed but they [TS]

00:12:09   it happened and tcp/ip was nothing so [TS]

00:12:13   it's not as good as these other [TS]

00:12:14   proprietary standards not as good as [TS]

00:12:16   Novell NetWare it's not as good as Apple [TS]

00:12:17   talk for this particular reason it you [TS]

00:12:19   know it doesn't matter the open standard [TS]

00:12:21   eventually unseeded whatever was the [TS]

00:12:23   dominant proprietary standard sometimes [TS]

00:12:25   there wasn't a single dominant pariah [TS]

00:12:27   Terry standard so it's easier for the [TS]

00:12:28   open one to sweep through but you know [TS]

00:12:30   in cases like AOL where it really was [TS]

00:12:31   one big dog in the world of Internet [TS]

00:12:33   service provider the internet just you [TS]

00:12:35   know everyone else beyond the internet [TS]

00:12:37   came and took it away and the second [TS]

00:12:40   mistake frank says I made this to the [TS]

00:12:42   lumpa textbooks in with general books [TS]

00:12:44   it's and I will get to that in a future [TS]

00:12:46   pointer I think he's more right on that [TS]

00:12:48   than he was in the first point so Gruber [TS]

00:12:51   had some more articles when he was [TS]

00:12:52   arguing back and forth with various [TS]

00:12:55   people on the web about the file format [TS]

00:12:58   and the issues involved in it and one of [TS]

00:13:05   the conclusions of one of Gruber's posts [TS]

00:13:07   were is responding to I wish I don't [TS]

00:13:08   respond to I should have this link open [TS]

00:13:10   this is quoting from Gruber II says [TS]

00:13:12   apples not in this game to reduce the [TS]

00:13:14   cross platform burdens of the publishing [TS]

00:13:15   industry if the publishing industry [TS]

00:13:17   wants to reduce the number of formats it [TS]

00:13:18   supports and the hassles of converting [TS]

00:13:20   from one form to another [TS]

00:13:21   bitch would be to go exclusively to the [TS]

00:13:23   iBookstore remember that post I have it [TS]

00:13:25   on the show again so this is something [TS]

00:13:30   that was brought up another podcast I [TS]

00:13:31   listened to that I think is true a lot [TS]

00:13:34   of people confuse someone explaining [TS]

00:13:36   Apple's position to someone supporting [TS]

00:13:38   Apple's position and it's like you know [TS]

00:13:41   if you can if you can explain something [TS]

00:13:43   from the perspective of app well it's [TS]

00:13:45   like well you would never written that [TS]

00:13:47   if you didn't agree with it even if you [TS]

00:13:48   not even if you're clearly saying Apple [TS]

00:13:50   is doing this because not I think Apple [TS]

00:13:53   is right to do this because you know [TS]

00:13:55   what I mean yeah and for people who [TS]

00:13:58   follow Apple and understand Apple it's [TS]

00:14:00   frustrating to us that other people [TS]

00:14:02   don't understand apples well we want to [TS]

00:14:03   explain though so this is why Apple is [TS]

00:14:04   doing this as soon as you write that [TS]

00:14:06   they go oh you know everything you wrote [TS]

00:14:08   that you must support I'm just [TS]

00:14:09   explaining to you what what happens [TS]

00:14:10   reasoning is you know what I mean [TS]

00:14:11   now you can also mix that with [TS]

00:14:14   disagreement or agreement but the just [TS]

00:14:17   the explanation of the strategy doesn't [TS]

00:14:18   really imply one of the one or the other [TS]

00:14:20   and reading that reminded me of an [TS]

00:14:22   article I wrote back in April for our [TS]

00:14:26   stack they're called apples wager and it [TS]

00:14:29   was about it there was a me explaining [TS]

00:14:32   what I think Apple is doing and then at [TS]

00:14:34   the end I did offer my pain and said [TS]

00:14:36   what you know this strategy has some [TS]

00:14:40   potential downsides and this was about [TS]

00:14:43   getting developers to develop for iOS [TS]

00:14:45   and you know that I was stuff app store [TS]

00:14:49   or locking developers into a single [TS]

00:14:51   platform of her distribution and [TS]

00:14:53   applying all these rules of them and [TS]

00:14:54   stuff like that [TS]

00:14:55   and here's a quote from that article is [TS]

00:14:57   anything that has a chance of slowing [TS]

00:14:59   down the progress of the platform simply [TS]

00:15:01   has to go and the best way Apple knows [TS]

00:15:02   to ensure that the platform progresses [TS]

00:15:04   is by controlling its own destiny in [TS]

00:15:05   every way that it's can that it can this [TS]

00:15:08   is a general statement about Apple that [TS]

00:15:10   could apply to anything it was [TS]

00:15:11   specifically talking about then you know [TS]

00:15:14   why does Apple exert such control over [TS]

00:15:16   its development platform they even [TS]

00:15:18   though it pisses off developers you know [TS]

00:15:19   developer tater why would they do that [TS]

00:15:21   it's because Apple wants to advance and [TS]

00:15:25   stay ahead and it wants to be you know [TS]

00:15:27   it wants to make sure its platform stays [TS]

00:15:29   ahead of its competitors and it wants to [TS]

00:15:30   change rapidly an apples big thing in [TS]

00:15:33   recent decades has been [TS]

00:15:35   the fastest way we can make progress is [TS]

00:15:37   by making sure we control our own [TS]

00:15:38   destiny in every possible way that's so [TS]

00:15:40   we need the power to to change to [TS]

00:15:42   enforce to make you know to bend things [TS]

00:15:45   to our will without having to go through [TS]

00:15:48   committees or processes or a negotiation [TS]

00:15:50   with the community nor anything like [TS]

00:15:51   that because the most important thing [TS]

00:15:52   and this is why I was called apples [TS]

00:15:54   wager they were betting that the most [TS]

00:15:55   important thing is to advance their [TS]

00:15:56   platform quickly quickly quickly [TS]

00:15:58   even if along the way you're pissing [TS]

00:15:59   people off because that's just that's [TS]

00:16:02   just the cost of progress and it's a bet [TS]

00:16:03   that's saying we're going to piss people [TS]

00:16:05   off like crazy but we're doing that [TS]

00:16:07   because we think we really need to have [TS]

00:16:09   control and that's the way we're going [TS]

00:16:10   to win in the end and it's a risky wager [TS]

00:16:12   as I say and the end of the article [TS]

00:16:14   because it's very easy to think [TS]

00:16:16   everything's going along swimmingly [TS]

00:16:17   right up to the point where everyone [TS]

00:16:19   freaks out revolts on so Apple has been [TS]

00:16:22   balancing that pretty well but this is [TS]

00:16:25   very similar with the ebooks thing you [TS]

00:16:26   know the best way it knows to ensure [TS]

00:16:28   platform progress is by controlling its [TS]

00:16:30   own destiny in every way that it can [TS]

00:16:31   well it's doing the same thing in the [TS]

00:16:33   e-book market it's got it wants to you [TS]

00:16:36   know as Gruber said if you know if you [TS]

00:16:39   and the public change do you think you [TS]

00:16:40   know it's too annoying for you to [TS]

00:16:41   support multiple formats just do [TS]

00:16:42   everything on the iBook store it's the [TS]

00:16:44   same thing with iOS you want to do it [TS]

00:16:45   make a cross-platform app using flash [TS]

00:16:47   you know so you can develop one mobile [TS]

00:16:49   app and deploy on all the mobile [TS]

00:16:50   platforms no tough luck you can't do [TS]

00:16:52   that yeah we're making you do a totally [TS]

00:16:54   separate native application for iOS if [TS]

00:16:57   you just want to support for one [TS]

00:16:58   platform just develop for iOS like [TS]

00:16:59   that's does not sound familiar that's [TS]

00:17:01   that's you could replace iBook star with [TS]

00:17:03   iOS in that conclusion the grouper head [TS]

00:17:05   would be exactly the same thing it's not [TS]

00:17:07   our it's not our problem that you have [TS]

00:17:08   to support 10 different mobile platforms [TS]

00:17:10   if you just want to support one we want [TS]

00:17:12   to make it so ours is the only one you [TS]

00:17:13   have to support if you don't like it you [TS]

00:17:15   know well that's your promise not our [TS]

00:17:17   problem where we are advancing our [TS]

00:17:18   platform we have demands this is the way [TS]

00:17:20   things have to be and I think I talked [TS]

00:17:26   about that in the last show I don't [TS]

00:17:29   think I think their position is much [TS]

00:17:31   stronger in iOS than it isn't in the the [TS]

00:17:35   e-book business and I mean like that [TS]

00:17:38   they're much more able to say you just [TS]

00:17:40   want to make one mobile app that web app [TS]

00:17:42   fine make it for iOS because they can [TS]

00:17:43   say well iOS is where you make all the [TS]

00:17:46   money and iOS customers [TS]

00:17:48   than Android customers because they [TS]

00:17:49   spend more like you know we have a huge [TS]

00:17:51   installed base we can make you lots of [TS]

00:17:53   money this is even if it's not going to [TS]

00:17:55   be the only platform you support it [TS]

00:17:57   should be the first for these very [TS]

00:17:58   concrete reasons whereas in you know [TS]

00:18:00   ebooks that's not you can't make that [TS]

00:18:02   pitch as well you can say hey you should [TS]

00:18:03   only distribute your ebook for the iBook [TS]

00:18:05   store because we sell the most books [TS]

00:18:08   while they don't well because people [TS]

00:18:09   make the most money something through us [TS]

00:18:10   I don't think they do because I think [TS]

00:18:11   this is a volume business and Amazon has [TS]

00:18:13   matched their rates you know they're not [TS]

00:18:14   the market leader there let's see I [TS]

00:18:18   think I have some stuff out of order [TS]

00:18:20   here um you want a minute to to research [TS]

00:18:24   it I can do our first sponsor that's a [TS]

00:18:27   good idea [TS]

00:18:27   my node these are these guys my note I [TS]

00:18:30   got to get to this app if you're not [TS]

00:18:32   using it and it's an intuitive mind map [TS]

00:18:34   you would love that all this is so you [TS]

00:18:36   this is perfect for you it's an [TS]

00:18:39   intuitive mind mapping tool for Mac and [TS]

00:18:41   for iOS so whether you're you're [TS]

00:18:44   brainstorming for your next project [TS]

00:18:45   you're organizing your show notes for [TS]

00:18:47   hypercritical you're organizing your [TS]

00:18:49   life you're planning your vacation [TS]

00:18:51   something you never do because you don't [TS]

00:18:53   you don't go on vacation but other [TS]

00:18:54   people do this isn't my note is what you [TS]

00:18:57   want to try here lets you collect [TS]

00:18:58   structure and expand your ideas it has a [TS]

00:19:02   built in Dropbox sinking it has built-in [TS]

00:19:05   Wi-Fi sharing your biggest ideas they [TS]

00:19:08   can go anywhere your iPhone goes or in [TS]

00:19:11   your case your iPod touch I still think [TS]

00:19:14   of it like the mind note easy mind [TS]

00:19:16   mapping it's for Mac it's for iPad it's [TS]

00:19:18   for iPhone you go to mind know.com and [TS]

00:19:22   that's that's where everything is so [TS]

00:19:24   please go there please check it out [TS]

00:19:25   great sponsor and these guys are just [TS]

00:19:28   great it's a good really just the best [TS]

00:19:30   app go check it out my note com use this [TS]

00:19:33   John I do not but I should check it out [TS]

00:19:35   check it hurt anything that has mined in [TS]

00:19:39   the title I immediately think it's some [TS]

00:19:41   sort of thing from Star Trek it's going [TS]

00:19:45   to do a mind-meld with me gonna augment [TS]

00:19:49   my mind [TS]

00:19:49   Vulcan Vulcan mind-meld well I had [TS]

00:19:54   things all out of water on these things [TS]

00:19:56   alright one one individual note here [TS]

00:19:58   from McKay Thomas I hope it's really I [TS]

00:20:01   really hope it's not Thomas we [TS]

00:20:02   okay I think a Thomas it's a nice a nice [TS]

00:20:06   blog post he wrote called high schools [TS]

00:20:08   are step one of two and he's what he [TS]

00:20:10   thinks of Apple strategy is that they [TS]

00:20:14   understand the the entrenched power [TS]

00:20:18   infrastructure surrounding university [TS]

00:20:20   bookstores and selling books to colleges [TS]

00:20:22   like there are people there who are [TS]

00:20:24   making a lot of money who really don't [TS]

00:20:26   want someone else coming in and taking [TS]

00:20:28   any of that money and there's a much [TS]

00:20:31   lower barrier to entry in terms of [TS]

00:20:33   entrenched commercial interest anyway [TS]

00:20:35   although perhaps not government [TS]

00:20:36   regulation for getting it to high [TS]

00:20:38   schools because high schools you know at [TS]

00:20:41   the very least high schools are always [TS]

00:20:42   much more cash-strapped than [TS]

00:20:43   universities public high schools we're [TS]

00:20:45   talking about here and so they can say [TS]

00:20:49   we're here to help we can get you [TS]

00:20:52   something cheaper we can make we can [TS]

00:20:54   make it your school look better because [TS]

00:20:56   it'll be a high-tech and wizzy and we'll [TS]

00:20:58   save you money on textbooks and that's [TS]

00:21:00   that's a good pitch and the argument in [TS]

00:21:03   this article is that a great part of the [TS]

00:21:06   strategy is that you get the kids when [TS]

00:21:07   they're young you get them used to the [TS]

00:21:09   idea that oh I was in high school we got [TS]

00:21:11   all our textbooks on the iPad and they [TS]

00:21:14   were cool and Howell's neat stuff in it [TS]

00:21:15   and I'm used to it and then I go to [TS]

00:21:17   college and I have to go to this [TS]

00:21:17   bookstore and pay 500 bucks at the [TS]

00:21:19   beginning of every semester for these [TS]

00:21:21   gigantic tomes or I got to buy used ones [TS]

00:21:23   that are all written in and beat up I [TS]

00:21:24   mean that that would be a big drop-off [TS]

00:21:27   from the experience from their high [TS]

00:21:29   school experience going to college you [TS]

00:21:30   know I mean versus the current [TS]

00:21:32   experiences of all our experiences when [TS]

00:21:34   we were kids probably is you go to high [TS]

00:21:36   school and maybe if you're lucky you get [TS]

00:21:38   newish textbooks but usually they're [TS]

00:21:39   used textbooks and people have written [TS]

00:21:40   it and stuff and you're given them as [TS]

00:21:42   beginning of the year and you got to lug [TS]

00:21:43   them around to put them in your locker [TS]

00:21:44   and then you give them back at the end [TS]

00:21:45   of the year and then you go to college [TS]

00:21:46   and it's like how you go to the fancy [TS]

00:21:47   university bookstore and you can get [TS]

00:21:49   brand new books really cause they're [TS]

00:21:50   really expensive but they're filled with [TS]

00:21:51   all the super advanced you know [TS]

00:21:53   interesting knowledge it if it's not a [TS]

00:21:56   step up and at the very least it's a [TS]

00:21:57   lateral move but if you spend your [TS]

00:21:59   entire high school career getting your [TS]

00:22:01   curriculum through an iPad going to a [TS]

00:22:04   college like that it's going to look bad [TS]

00:22:05   and suddenly the incoming freshman at [TS]

00:22:08   colleges are going to start looking on [TS]

00:22:10   universities and saying well I give this [TS]

00:22:12   one a demerit because they use the [TS]

00:22:14   stupid old book system that [TS]

00:22:16   understand and they don't know or care [TS]

00:22:18   who makes the money off university [TS]

00:22:19   textbooks all they know is that it was [TS]

00:22:21   cooler in high school and so colleges [TS]

00:22:23   will figure out well if we want to [TS]

00:22:25   attract more incoming freshmen we should [TS]

00:22:27   think about giving them what they expect [TS]

00:22:28   in terms of you know electronic [TS]

00:22:30   curriculum and we don't want to look [TS]

00:22:32   worse than what they did high school [TS]

00:22:34   this is kind of this reminded me kind of [TS]

00:22:36   a B I don't know if it was a conscious [TS]

00:22:38   strategy but an effective strategy of [TS]

00:22:40   making c-level executives want to own [TS]

00:22:43   iPhones even if they weren't allowed in [TS]

00:22:46   the business because the IT people had [TS]

00:22:47   it all locked down to blackberry and [TS]

00:22:49   stuff like that yeah but the execs will [TS]

00:22:51   buy iPhones and say I don't care I'm [TS]

00:22:53   your boss let this fall in the network [TS]

00:22:55   letting it work they can figure it out [TS]

00:22:56   yeah and it's like a backdoor in because [TS]

00:22:58   they didn't want it one way to come out [TS]

00:23:00   it would be like to go to the IT people [TS]

00:23:01   and say I know you love blackberry but [TS]

00:23:03   what can we do to help you consider [TS]

00:23:05   deploying iPhones and so well it's got a [TS]

00:23:07   physical keyboard and gotta do this it's [TS]

00:23:09   got to be that man you know they did [TS]

00:23:10   address those needs with not a physical [TS]

00:23:12   keyboard but like the remote wipe and [TS]

00:23:14   the exchange support like they did that [TS]

00:23:15   but the other strategy probably work [TS]

00:23:18   just as well if not better I'm just [TS]

00:23:19   making a phone that everybody wants [TS]

00:23:21   especially you know people with a lot of [TS]

00:23:23   money wouldn't you know launch at six [TS]

00:23:25   hundred bucks or whatever it's a fancy [TS]

00:23:27   luxury item and once those guys get it [TS]

00:23:30   it kind of trickles down well this is [TS]

00:23:31   kind of like a trickle up get them get [TS]

00:23:32   them all they're young and this is like [TS]

00:23:34   the backdoor into getting into [TS]

00:23:35   universities just like giving the execs [TS]

00:23:38   was the back door getting into the [TS]

00:23:39   enterprise with the iPhone and speaking [TS]

00:23:43   of strategy a couple people brought this [TS]

00:23:45   up and I had it in my oats for last show [TS]

00:23:47   and somehow missed it probably because [TS]

00:23:49   it was just a single line item and I [TS]

00:23:50   have too many damn notes I wrote an [TS]

00:23:52   article last year called the Apple [TS]

00:23:55   strategy tax and this was a sort of a [TS]

00:23:58   specific case of the general idea of a [TS]

00:23:59   strategy tax which I first read about [TS]

00:24:01   from Joel Spolsky [TS]

00:24:03   the idea is that a strategy tax is when [TS]

00:24:06   a company that does lots of things can't [TS]

00:24:09   do one thing that it's doing as well as [TS]

00:24:12   it could possibly do it because doing [TS]

00:24:14   that one thing really well would hurt [TS]

00:24:16   some other part of its business I think [TS]

00:24:19   one of the examples again it was like [TS]

00:24:21   when Internet Explorer was getting rich [TS]

00:24:25   text editing capabilities like all you [TS]

00:24:27   have you have a text box in a web [TS]

00:24:28   browser [TS]

00:24:28   but we don't want to make the text box [TS]

00:24:30   too powerful because then it's they were [TS]

00:24:32   so afraid that the web would like [TS]

00:24:33   replace Microsoft Word you know sort of [TS]

00:24:35   like a Google Docs I think so the [TS]

00:24:37   strategy text there was you'd said telly [TS]

00:24:39   I 18 don't don't spend too much time [TS]

00:24:41   making the rich text editing [TS]

00:24:42   capabilities of ie super awesome I mean [TS]

00:24:45   you can make them good but don't make [TS]

00:24:46   them too good this I don't know this [TS]

00:24:49   actually happened this is just an [TS]

00:24:50   example of like what what would examples [TS]

00:24:51   like a conflict of interest across the [TS]

00:24:53   organization where you're you're [TS]

00:24:54   fighting with one hand tied behind your [TS]

00:24:55   back with you so afraid of hurting some [TS]

00:24:57   other part of your business and this [TS]

00:25:01   comes up because iBooks Author [TS]

00:25:03   conceit you could you could look at if [TS]

00:25:05   you look at a certain way is another [TS]

00:25:07   victim of strategy tax because if the [TS]

00:25:11   iBooks Author team it really depends on [TS]

00:25:13   what their goal was like this gets into [TS]

00:25:14   semantics but if you were to assume that [TS]

00:25:16   the iBooks Author team their goal was to [TS]

00:25:18   make an awesome electronic publishing [TS]

00:25:20   editing application and Apple didn't [TS]

00:25:25   sell books and Apple didn't have any you [TS]

00:25:26   know sort of a vested interest in their [TS]

00:25:28   like say they were an independent [TS]

00:25:29   company you would think that they would [TS]

00:25:32   make an application they would they [TS]

00:25:33   would be more of a recognition of the [TS]

00:25:35   market as it exists you know where [TS]

00:25:38   Amazon Kindle is the the dominant [TS]

00:25:41   platform they have prior Terry format [TS]

00:25:43   and you can kind of target that and then [TS]

00:25:44   there's epub which is the open standard [TS]

00:25:46   right instead iBooks Author is 100% [TS]

00:25:49   focused on Apple Store making stuff that [TS]

00:25:52   can only be sold an Apple Store an Apple [TS]

00:25:54   special format and it doesn't look like [TS]

00:25:58   the application that would have been [TS]

00:25:59   made by an independent party and [TS]

00:26:01   strategy tax is that don't do anything [TS]

00:26:04   that strengthens our competitors because [TS]

00:26:05   we have a book store and if you make an [TS]

00:26:07   application it makes it really easy to [TS]

00:26:09   put things in the Kindle book store that [TS]

00:26:10   doesn't help us like you're hurting us [TS]

00:26:11   there don't we we have a vested interest [TS]

00:26:14   we have we have our own store and you [TS]

00:26:16   can't just make a generic application [TS]

00:26:18   now like I said that's kind of cement [TS]

00:26:20   because you can say well maybe the teams [TS]

00:26:22   that wasn't the team's goal the team [TS]

00:26:24   goal was not to make a generic you know [TS]

00:26:25   as Gruber saying the team's goal was [TS]

00:26:27   admit to make a really great application [TS]

00:26:30   to make it easier to target our store so [TS]

00:26:31   maybe in fact the entire purpose of the [TS]

00:26:34   iBooks Author application was as an [TS]

00:26:36   adjunct to the iBook store strategy and [TS]

00:26:39   not an independent application but [TS]

00:26:40   clearly there's [TS]

00:26:42   the oh I filled as a strategy tax [TS]

00:26:45   because there's something preventing [TS]

00:26:46   Apple from making an application that a [TS]

00:26:48   lot of people would want and that thing [TS]

00:26:50   is a vested interest in something [TS]

00:26:53   different you know what I mean [TS]

00:26:55   a vested interest in something different [TS]

00:27:00   yeah like because it if they were just [TS]

00:27:02   saying people you know a electronic book [TS]

00:27:05   editing application people want that [TS]

00:27:07   let's make it they said no no no we [TS]

00:27:08   think goal in mind yeah we have a store [TS]

00:27:11   we have to support our store you know [TS]

00:27:13   we're not out to solve the customers [TS]

00:27:14   problem the customer customers going to [TS]

00:27:16   say their problem is it's such a pain to [TS]

00:27:18   electronically publish stuff oh we don't [TS]

00:27:21   you know Apple says well that's not the [TS]

00:27:23   problem we're interested in solving our [TS]

00:27:24   problem is the iBookstore isn't selling [TS]

00:27:26   ten times more books in amazon so how do [TS]

00:27:29   we solve that problem and that's not a [TS]

00:27:30   customer problem that's an apple problem [TS]

00:27:32   you know what I mean and when a company [TS]

00:27:34   is solving its own problem it's harder [TS]

00:27:36   to pitch customers on why that's such an [TS]

00:27:38   awesome thing when they've got existing [TS]

00:27:40   problem they want salt now again Apple [TS]

00:27:42   thinks that this is the best strategy [TS]

00:27:44   similarly as always buy OS where Apple [TS]

00:27:46   was saying we need we need a total [TS]

00:27:47   control and if it's a big problem for [TS]

00:27:48   you developers tough luck because we [TS]

00:27:50   think in the end if we do this our [TS]

00:27:53   platform will be so much more successful [TS]

00:27:54   and customers will love it so much more [TS]

00:27:56   that's eventually good for you that our [TS]

00:27:59   customers will spend money that will [TS]

00:28:00   grow the base that will send sell tons [TS]

00:28:01   of iPhones so just just hang on [TS]

00:28:03   developers I know it kind of sucks for [TS]

00:28:04   you and it's annoying but when the [TS]

00:28:06   checks come at the end of the month or [TS]

00:28:07   quarter or over Apple pays you'll be [TS]

00:28:09   happy about it but in the iBooks Author [TS]

00:28:11   case maybe they're trying that same [TS]

00:28:14   strategy but I don't know I don't I [TS]

00:28:17   don't think their position is strong I [TS]

00:28:19   think you mentioned it when you're [TS]

00:28:21   talking about this on the talk show one [TS]

00:28:23   of the reasons that we think people [TS]

00:28:25   might people tend to prefer the Kindle [TS]

00:28:27   format is because you can read it [TS]

00:28:29   anywhere I don't know any device that [TS]

00:28:33   you have any device that you have you [TS]

00:28:35   can pretty much get the Kindle app for [TS]

00:28:37   Mac iPhone Kindle obviously yeah and and [TS]

00:28:42   they an Amazon introduced the Kindle [TS]

00:28:44   Fire which is a tablet but what they [TS]

00:28:46   didn't do was say well now that we've [TS]

00:28:47   got the Kindle Fire you can't read [TS]

00:28:48   Kindle books on the iPad right and that [TS]

00:28:51   people were talking about that like GG's [TS]

00:28:53   when Amazon comes out with this Kindle [TS]

00:28:55   Fire thing that's some [TS]

00:28:56   like an iPad are they going to still let [TS]

00:28:57   the Kindle app be on the iPad so far [TS]

00:28:59   looks like they are maybe that will [TS]

00:29:03   change someday but I don't seems to be [TS]

00:29:05   integral to it's kind of like Netflix [TS]

00:29:08   dragging Netflix is on everything you [TS]

00:29:10   buy a set of speakers for your computer [TS]

00:29:11   they probably constrain Netflix right [TS]

00:29:13   they'd clear you know everything to [TS]

00:29:15   stream Netflix and Amazon is said do you [TS]

00:29:17   have a device that conceivably read [TS]

00:29:18   Kindle books we'll put some app on maybe [TS]

00:29:20   it's a crappy app like the Kindle reader [TS]

00:29:22   for the Mac is not a great application [TS]

00:29:23   but you can read them on your Mac you [TS]

00:29:25   can read them on your PC you can read [TS]

00:29:26   them on all the Kindles you can read [TS]

00:29:27   them on the iPad I'm assuming those [TS]

00:29:29   Android versions of these things - they [TS]

00:29:31   just want people to be able to read [TS]

00:29:33   their stuff that's a very different [TS]

00:29:35   strategy than Apple's um so what what [TS]

00:29:41   might I have missed in my pessimistic [TS]

00:29:43   assessment of iBooks Author [TS]

00:29:47   I think the biggest thing that many [TS]

00:29:49   people pointed out and I think they're [TS]

00:29:50   right is that when I was speaking of the [TS]

00:29:53   whole idea that if you're not the market [TS]

00:29:55   leader you should rally behind an open [TS]

00:29:57   format [TS]

00:29:58   Amazon is the market leader in [TS]

00:30:00   electronic books in general but are they [TS]

00:30:04   the market leader in electronic [TS]

00:30:05   textbooks probably not so if you [TS]

00:30:09   subdivide and you say ignoring who's the [TS]

00:30:12   leader in electronic books there is no [TS]

00:30:14   strong you know single competent leader [TS]

00:30:18   and electronic textbooks and Apple wants [TS]

00:30:20   to be that leader so it doesn't really [TS]

00:30:21   matter that Kindle has come is dominant [TS]

00:30:23   and selling you know fiction and [TS]

00:30:24   nonfiction books to any users we're [TS]

00:30:26   talking about the education market you [TS]

00:30:27   know and you know they don't control the [TS]

00:30:33   date this is where it gets weird is [TS]

00:30:35   because the I don't I don't know who [TS]

00:30:37   really understands the education market [TS]

00:30:40   I mean Apple you explained already why [TS]

00:30:43   they want that inroad and it makes sense [TS]

00:30:45   you know the kids they learn it they [TS]

00:30:47   come up but do you think to say that [TS]

00:30:52   they understand it or to jump in and say [TS]

00:30:54   that they control it you know I'm [TS]

00:30:55   talking about well as jobs told Isaacson [TS]

00:30:59   in the biography that anyone who's an [TS]

00:31:01   outsider who looked at the market for [TS]

00:31:04   textbooks sees dysfunction they see you [TS]

00:31:07   know obviously that the local school [TS]

00:31:08   boards and the government [TS]

00:31:09   stuff like that but they also see [TS]

00:31:12   entrenched interests that are used to [TS]

00:31:14   selling you big stacks of paper for lots [TS]

00:31:16   of money that aren't I don't say that [TS]

00:31:20   aren't competent but that aren't [TS]

00:31:21   enthusiastic about about going digital [TS]

00:31:24   or even if they are enthusiastic are not [TS]

00:31:25   very good at it because these are book [TS]

00:31:27   companies that print paper books and [TS]

00:31:29   it's not an easy transition for them to [TS]

00:31:31   to change it's kind of like the record [TS]

00:31:33   labels where even if there's people [TS]

00:31:34   inside the record label sugreev digital [TS]

00:31:36   music was the future they weren't [TS]

00:31:37   equipped they didn't have software [TS]

00:31:38   development departments they had no [TS]

00:31:39   platform they they didn't understand the [TS]

00:31:41   web they didn't you know it just wasn't [TS]

00:31:43   their business so if you're looking from [TS]

00:31:44   the outside you're like boy these bozos [TS]

00:31:46   they're not going to figure it out [TS]

00:31:48   so Apple's thinking well geez we've got [TS]

00:31:50   all the skill set to be to be the big [TS]

00:31:52   dog in this scenario so let's go in [TS]

00:31:54   there let's be the big dog you know I [TS]

00:31:58   and the the biggest strength that a lot [TS]

00:32:01   of people brought up as they said Apple [TS]

00:32:02   you know Amazon's not the leader in [TS]

00:32:03   textbooks so maybe Apple could be and [TS]

00:32:05   the bar is really really low because it [TS]

00:32:08   would regardless of what Apple does with [TS]

00:32:10   locking you into one form and all this [TS]

00:32:11   stuff the the consensus is the [TS]

00:32:14   competition the existing competition and [TS]

00:32:16   any potential competition is probably [TS]

00:32:18   going to be much much worse in terms of [TS]

00:32:19   quality and that's apples big strengths [TS]

00:32:22   they're going to say like oh so fine go [TS]

00:32:23   ahead you rally around an open forum [TS]

00:32:24   that you guys couldn't program you at a [TS]

00:32:25   paperback you don't understand platforms [TS]

00:32:27   you can't make a nice application you [TS]

00:32:30   know look at all the existing open epub [TS]

00:32:32   readers they're not made to the level of [TS]

00:32:35   quality and fit and finish that that [TS]

00:32:38   Apple's tools are and I think Marco saw [TS]

00:32:40   Microsoft I think Apple is probably not [TS]

00:32:42   even afraid of the big people like [TS]

00:32:44   Microsoft and Adobe but they're gonna [TS]

00:32:45   say oh those those guys they don't know [TS]

00:32:46   how to make a great application that [TS]

00:32:48   people love to use right Apple really [TS]

00:32:49   believes in its strengths in you know [TS]

00:32:53   that they can make a better product than [TS]

00:32:54   everybody else and even if they do [TS]

00:32:56   things that customers don't like they [TS]

00:32:57   say but we're still better than the [TS]

00:32:59   competition and what I heard from the [TS]

00:33:00   people who seem to be in the education [TS]

00:33:02   world is that the existing products are [TS]

00:33:05   terrible it was really really terribly [TS]

00:33:06   asserting electronic textbook products [TS]

00:33:08   like they're better than nothing but [TS]

00:33:09   they're not Apple quality so it's a [TS]

00:33:12   question it's a question of what the [TS]

00:33:14   value system is is the value system of [TS]

00:33:15   the people making these decisions about [TS]

00:33:17   electronic textbook publishing are they [TS]

00:33:20   going to value those applicants quality [TS]

00:33:23   of the [TS]

00:33:23   elect the polish ease-of-use how easy it [TS]

00:33:28   is to do something fancy you know all [TS]

00:33:30   the things that that there Apple [TS]

00:33:31   strengths are they going to value that [TS]

00:33:32   over not being locked into a single [TS]

00:33:34   vendor not being locked into a single [TS]

00:33:36   platform you know being having a more a [TS]

00:33:39   workflow that allows this content to be [TS]

00:33:42   viewed and places other than iPads and [TS]

00:33:47   as a lot of people were chastising me [TS]

00:33:49   for being so fast pessimistic I think [TS]

00:33:51   one of the things they may have been [TS]

00:33:53   missing maybe if they're not longtime [TS]

00:33:54   listeners or hadn't done in context [TS]

00:33:56   which in a head is that just because I [TS]

00:33:58   think apples done a lot of things wrong [TS]

00:33:59   with iBooks Author it doesn't mean I [TS]

00:34:01   don't think they're still the best the [TS]

00:34:03   best example that is TiVo which I [TS]

00:34:04   complain about endlessly and yet still [TS]

00:34:06   say they are still the best DVR that [TS]

00:34:08   I've used so you can you can be making [TS]

00:34:10   terrible mistakes and be truly awful on [TS]

00:34:13   many fronts just like TiVo but you can [TS]

00:34:14   still be the best in the market that's a [TS]

00:34:17   not a that's not a great win like you're [TS]

00:34:22   gonna say boy we're the dominant text [TS]

00:34:24   book publisher because we're not as [TS]

00:34:26   sucky as everybody else it's hard it's [TS]

00:34:28   hard to get behind that and and be proud [TS]

00:34:31   of it you'd rather be proudest like we [TS]

00:34:33   are the best you know we make the best [TS]

00:34:35   digital music player and it's not [TS]

00:34:36   because not just because everyone else [TS]

00:34:38   sucks [TS]

00:34:38   iPods legitimately are cool and also [TS]

00:34:40   when people love them versus well people [TS]

00:34:43   really don't like that EULA that we did [TS]

00:34:44   and they really hate being confined to [TS]

00:34:46   the iPad but everyone else sucks worse [TS]

00:34:47   so we're going to get that market that's [TS]

00:34:48   not that's not a clean victory in my [TS]

00:34:52   book the other thing I talked about and [TS]

00:34:56   I I was right actually referencing the [TS]

00:34:59   tweets of Glenn Fleischmann when I said [TS]

00:35:00   it and he later wrote an article about [TS]

00:35:02   it I don't know if I did a reference [TS]

00:35:05   article in the show I think it was being [TS]

00:35:06   published on the same time it's called [TS]

00:35:07   apples textbook plan feels like a blast [TS]

00:35:09   from the past and he was echoing my [TS]

00:35:15   feelings that we've seen this type of [TS]

00:35:17   pitch before about textbooks and how if [TS]

00:35:19   you fill in with wizzy graphics and full [TS]

00:35:21   motion video and stuff that students [TS]

00:35:24   will be engaged and that's what the [TS]

00:35:25   problem with education is and you know [TS]

00:35:27   interactive multimedia cd-rom wizzy [TS]

00:35:30   graphics will solve our education [TS]

00:35:31   problems and everyone came down on me [TS]

00:35:35   Anna these aren't like multimedia cd-rom [TS]

00:35:38   this is totally different don't you [TS]

00:35:40   understand the iPad makes it completely [TS]

00:35:42   different I think I brought that up in [TS]

00:35:44   the last show that yeah the thing that [TS]

00:35:46   the one thing that is different in this [TS]

00:35:47   is that leave the vehicle the I don't [TS]

00:35:51   know what you call the the platform is [TS]

00:35:52   the iPad and as we've seen you would [TS]

00:35:55   think also what it's on a touchscreen so [TS]

00:35:56   if we take the same pictures that are on [TS]

00:35:58   a PC screen put them on touchscreen [TS]

00:35:59   suddenly it's different well yeah it [TS]

00:36:01   actually is different that's something [TS]

00:36:03   that a lot of people still haven't come [TS]

00:36:04   to terms with but I think we've all use [TS]

00:36:06   iPads enough to know that if there [TS]

00:36:07   really is a real physical psychological [TS]

00:36:11   physiological difference between you [TS]

00:36:13   know consuming and used consuming [TS]

00:36:16   content and using an iPad versus using a [TS]

00:36:18   PC it makes a big difference especially [TS]

00:36:19   for young people and especially in [TS]

00:36:21   school so that is the big differentiator [TS]

00:36:24   but the the Apple presentation which by [TS]

00:36:26   the way I now have watched everyone [TS]

00:36:28   yelled to me for not having watches I [TS]

00:36:29   apologized last show I told I said I [TS]

00:36:31   hadn't watched it yet but now I have [TS]

00:36:32   watched it it didn't really change much [TS]

00:36:34   for my opinions because as I said the [TS]

00:36:35   last show I did watch the live blog of [TS]

00:36:37   it so it's not like I didn't know what [TS]

00:36:38   was presented but I actually watched the [TS]

00:36:40   video all the way through and the video [TS]

00:36:45   made a couple of allusions to the [TS]

00:36:47   magical iPad experience but mostly [TS]

00:36:48   pushed on look at these amazing videos [TS]

00:36:50   look at these amazing pictures look at [TS]

00:36:51   this interactivity look at you know and [TS]

00:36:53   it was very especially when it's up in a [TS]

00:36:55   presentation screen you know it's hard [TS]

00:36:58   to differentiate in that context that [TS]

00:36:59   this is something that people are [TS]

00:37:00   touching versus something appearing on a [TS]

00:37:01   screen on a PC screen but they were [TS]

00:37:04   mostly leaning on sort of the old tired [TS]

00:37:06   arguments that mostly been disproven [TS]

00:37:08   about how computers and interactivity [TS]

00:37:11   and video graphics will solve the [TS]

00:37:14   problems of Education to make all kids [TS]

00:37:16   smarter and make them pay attention in [TS]

00:37:18   school and do better in tests and just [TS]

00:37:19   everything so this Glenn flash Muraki [TS]

00:37:21   lays out this argument and then people [TS]

00:37:23   vociferously disagree with him as well [TS]

00:37:25   you can see in the comments so here's a [TS]

00:37:30   quote from somebody who's even more [TS]

00:37:31   pessimistic about technology [TS]

00:37:35   revolutionising education than Glenn or [TS]

00:37:38   I says I used to think the technology [TS]

00:37:42   could help education I probably [TS]

00:37:43   spearheaded giving away more computer [TS]

00:37:44   equipment to schools than anybody else [TS]

00:37:46   in the planet but I've had to come to [TS]

00:37:47   the inevitable conclusion that the [TS]

00:37:48   problem is not one the technology can [TS]

00:37:50   hope to solve what's [TS]

00:37:51   wrong with education cannot be fixed [TS]

00:37:52   with technology no amount of technology [TS]

00:37:54   will make a dent [TS]

00:37:55   that sounds pretty done pessimistic lay [TS]

00:37:57   out the technologies helping education [TS]

00:38:00   so that's a quote from Steve Jobs in [TS]

00:38:02   February of 1996 obviously any time job [TS]

00:38:08   says he although he said we're never [TS]

00:38:09   gonna watch video and iPad he's just [TS]

00:38:10   doing that thing this is 1996 before he [TS]

00:38:12   even came back from Apple this was [TS]

00:38:13   certainly not a ploy of like right I'm [TS]

00:38:15   gonna say this quote to keep competitors [TS]

00:38:17   away and I'm gonna come back to the [TS]

00:38:18   company and then right before I die of [TS]

00:38:20   cancer I'm gonna make my company you [TS]

00:38:22   know a decade later I'm gonna make my [TS]

00:38:24   company distribute textbook this was his [TS]

00:38:26   legitimate opinion after having spent a [TS]

00:38:28   long time he really bought into the the [TS]

00:38:30   you know the hype and you can't blame [TS]

00:38:32   the first time around like we knew the [TS]

00:38:33   Apple twos were coming out well personal [TS]

00:38:35   computers in the school this is gonna [TS]

00:38:36   revolutionize education we're going to [TS]

00:38:37   give these computers after the school [TS]

00:38:38   and boy it's going to be a bicycle for [TS]

00:38:40   the mind and everything's going to take [TS]

00:38:42   off and it's going to revolutionize the [TS]

00:38:43   way we learn and he saw that it didn't [TS]

00:38:45   and he came to the conclusion by 1996 [TS]

00:38:48   that what's wrong with education cannot [TS]

00:38:50   be fixed with technology no amount of [TS]

00:38:52   technology will make a dent they did not [TS]

00:38:54   put this quote up on the screen [TS]

00:38:55   surprisingly during the education [TS]

00:38:56   presentation I don't say all right why [TS]

00:39:00   wouldn't they do that and I think if you [TS]

00:39:03   brought Steve Jobs on the stage he would [TS]

00:39:05   agree with a statement again mostly what [TS]

00:39:08   Apple is trying to do with with iBooks [TS]

00:39:10   Author is not not to fix education with [TS]

00:39:14   technology to fix education to fix a [TS]

00:39:17   part of education that's that's not [TS]

00:39:18   optimal the whole textbook industry of [TS]

00:39:20   how you know it's just the same way [TS]

00:39:22   physical media was not optimal [TS]

00:39:23   distributing music on CD was not optimal [TS]

00:39:25   and doing it digitally is much better [TS]

00:39:27   cutting out middlemen the advantages of [TS]

00:39:30   digital or physical products things that [TS]

00:39:34   the digital content can do that physical [TS]

00:39:36   media cannot do so this is taking a part [TS]

00:39:39   of Education it's not as efficient as it [TS]

00:39:40   could be in trying to make it more [TS]

00:39:41   efficient especially when you've got [TS]

00:39:42   entrenched interests who are like [TS]

00:39:44   resisting move to digital because they [TS]

00:39:46   want to keep making money on their paper [TS]

00:39:47   textbooks and all that business it it's [TS]

00:39:52   not you know it that it would have been [TS]

00:39:54   more honest for them to instead of that [TS]

00:39:56   presentation saying oh look at all these [TS]

00:39:57   great cool things textbook there would [TS]

00:39:59   be more honest to say I'm going to go a [TS]

00:40:00   blow-by-blow through how sick and [TS]

00:40:02   dysfunctional the [TS]

00:40:04   and textbook industry is you can't kind [TS]

00:40:06   of do that when you're on stage [TS]

00:40:07   partnering with the biggest tech [TS]

00:40:09   manufacturers in the United States you [TS]

00:40:10   know I mean but that would have been I [TS]

00:40:12   think that would have been a more if you [TS]

00:40:15   really wanted to know what was behind [TS]

00:40:16   Steve Jobs in particular his idea that [TS]

00:40:18   this mark that they need to enter this [TS]

00:40:19   market is that the market is messed up [TS]

00:40:21   it's not it's not the way it should be [TS]

00:40:22   it's like they didn't all mobile phones [TS]

00:40:24   were crappy all smartphones were crappy [TS]

00:40:26   there was you know music CDs were kind [TS]

00:40:30   of annoying to use that there are places [TS]

00:40:33   and that they see there's a problem in [TS]

00:40:36   the world may say well we have the [TS]

00:40:37   technology to fix this there's no reason [TS]

00:40:38   this has to be crappy like this and the [TS]

00:40:40   only reason it's staying crap is because [TS]

00:40:41   these people are just dragging their [TS]

00:40:42   feet so let's get them to move along [TS]

00:40:44   either by attacking them or partnering [TS]

00:40:47   them or doing both at once you're doing [TS]

00:40:48   a judo move or whatever on them so they [TS]

00:40:50   can't get up there and say and really [TS]

00:40:52   explain here's why we're entering this [TS]

00:40:54   market because it's a big hairy mess and [TS]

00:40:56   we think we can fix it they have to [TS]

00:40:57   present it another way but by the way [TS]

00:41:01   they chose to present it did have a lot [TS]

00:41:03   of that rehashing of old tired arguments [TS]

00:41:05   about interactivity and video and [TS]

00:41:07   everything revolutionising education and [TS]

00:41:09   that comes off looking like you're [TS]

00:41:10   saying that technology will fix [TS]

00:41:12   education even that's not what they said [TS]

00:41:15   but that that's what that's the [TS]

00:41:16   impression it gives you know and that's [TS]

00:41:19   the Prince Glen's big objection my big [TS]

00:41:21   objection it's kind of like fetishizing [TS]

00:41:24   the artifacts of Education like that [TS]

00:41:26   it's not that these these iPads and [TS]

00:41:30   these textbooks are what really matter [TS]

00:41:31   in education and I was thinking of [TS]

00:41:33   looking at that of why why do not why do [TS]

00:41:36   I check to that what is it that I think [TS]

00:41:38   is the real theory of Education I [TS]

00:41:40   thought about Maslow's hot Maslow's [TS]

00:41:42   hierarchy of needs have you heard of [TS]

00:41:44   that you're a liberal arts education now [TS]

00:41:45   is this you trying to trick me no you [TS]

00:41:48   know murder murder lies I release tricks [TS]

00:41:50   me I'll say Oh have you heard of this [TS]

00:41:51   thing I'll say sure and then be like [TS]

00:41:52   well I've just made it up oh yeah I [TS]

00:41:54   remember when he got you on the the yeah [TS]

00:41:57   he likes to focus in Berlin sir he [TS]

00:41:58   principally said some other uncertainty [TS]

00:42:00   yeah yeah he likes to try and trick [TS]

00:42:01   people now is really Maslow's hierarchy [TS]

00:42:03   of needs it's linked in Wikipedia in the [TS]

00:42:05   show notes and I I think there's a [TS]

00:42:10   hierarchy of needs in education that [TS]

00:42:12   looks something like this people who are [TS]

00:42:14   in education can quibble about the order [TS]

00:42:16   that I put things but like what [TS]

00:42:18   is the most important thing in education [TS]

00:42:19   so number one I would say is physical [TS]

00:42:21   safety this is similar to Maslow's [TS]

00:42:24   hierarchy of needs a compressed version [TS]

00:42:26   you have to feel safe at school the [TS]

00:42:29   facilities can't be falling around on [TS]

00:42:30   your head they have to have climate [TS]

00:42:32   control like just the basics of you you [TS]

00:42:34   feel safe at school your life is not in [TS]

00:42:36   danger right just the ceiling is not [TS]

00:42:38   gonna fall in you're not freezing to [TS]

00:42:39   death that's number one I think everyone [TS]

00:42:41   agrees in that it's kind of like why you [TS]

00:42:42   start there done right the second one I [TS]

00:42:44   would say was emotional safety where [TS]

00:42:46   it's not just a safe environment [TS]

00:42:48   physically but also a safe environment [TS]

00:42:50   where you know bullying and the balance [TS]

00:42:53   of positive and negative reinforcement [TS]

00:42:54   from teachers and students that it's a [TS]

00:42:56   place where you don't feel you're under [TS]

00:42:59   attack and fearful emotionally are ways [TS]

00:43:03   other than physical because so now [TS]

00:43:04   you're now you're innocent citizen where [TS]

00:43:06   you can actually potentially learn right [TS]

00:43:09   and then the next one right after [TS]

00:43:11   physical and emotional safety I think is [TS]

00:43:14   good teachers class size is kind of [TS]

00:43:17   wrapped up in this but in general I [TS]

00:43:19   think that is the the third most [TS]

00:43:20   important thing is who is up there [TS]

00:43:22   teaching the material it's not the [TS]

00:43:24   textbook it's not the material it's not [TS]

00:43:26   the curriculum it's not what you have to [TS]

00:43:27   learn it's good teachers because as we [TS]

00:43:29   all know I think everyone has been [TS]

00:43:31   through education one or two good [TS]

00:43:32   teachers have a profound effect on your [TS]

00:43:36   life in your future I think with urban [TS]

00:43:37   studies of this of like these kids who [TS]

00:43:39   had this one good teacher in like third [TS]

00:43:41   grade [TS]

00:43:41   had you know 20% higher income and more [TS]

00:43:44   success in happiness in their adult life [TS]

00:43:45   than these people who didn't have this [TS]

00:43:46   one teacher you know it's huge huge [TS]

00:43:48   effect I mean I left that like good [TS]

00:43:51   parents and family life and stuff as I'm [TS]

00:43:52   just focusing on things that the school [TS]

00:43:53   can do itself so they can't they can't [TS]

00:43:55   go in your house and make it right Paris [TS]

00:43:57   obviously that has a massive influence [TS]

00:43:59   as well but saying welcome to school do [TS]

00:44:00   provide physical safety provide a safe [TS]

00:44:02   emotional environment and have good [TS]

00:44:04   teachers and then way way down at the [TS]

00:44:07   bottom of this probably is education [TS]

00:44:08   materials make sure you have you know [TS]

00:44:12   good blackboards or computers or [TS]

00:44:14   textbooks and stuff like that but that's [TS]

00:44:16   that's so you know not only is it not [TS]

00:44:18   number one I think it's down you know [TS]

00:44:21   it's possibly the the lowest thing on [TS]

00:44:24   the list because really if you think [TS]

00:44:26   about those great teachers that you had [TS]

00:44:27   do you remember like oh you know that [TS]

00:44:30   teacher was great because they had a [TS]

00:44:31   smart whiteboard [TS]

00:44:32   we could draw on know like I mean it's [TS]

00:44:35   because we're all old and we didn't have [TS]

00:44:36   cool things like this but the materials [TS]

00:44:39   you have how beat up your textbook is [TS]

00:44:40   how good your textbook was whether [TS]

00:44:42   you're forced to learn this thing in [TS]

00:44:44   this grade and this thing that grade [TS]

00:44:46   because some stupid change in curriculum [TS]

00:44:47   that you don't have a control over it [TS]

00:44:48   all comes down to you know physical [TS]

00:44:50   safety emotional safety good teachers [TS]

00:44:52   and that's why no amount of technology [TS]

00:44:54   will make a dent because those other [TS]

00:44:56   things are so much more important [TS]

00:44:58   they're massively dominant in terms of [TS]

00:44:59   the quality of education that if you [TS]

00:45:01   have all those things you can give those [TS]

00:45:02   people rocks and sticks and you know and [TS]

00:45:05   and enforce on them a stupid curriculum [TS]

00:45:07   with a crappy textbook and they would [TS]

00:45:08   still produce students who understand [TS]

00:45:11   material and are more successful you [TS]

00:45:13   know and so this video where they can't [TS]

00:45:18   this presentation where they can't come [TS]

00:45:20   out and say this the textbook industry [TS]

00:45:23   is messed up and that's why we've [TS]

00:45:24   decided to enter it oh and by the way [TS]

00:45:26   here all the people who messed it up and [TS]

00:45:27   were going to partner with them since [TS]

00:45:28   they can't say that I would have liked [TS]

00:45:30   to have seen them acknowledge right up [TS]

00:45:34   front the the idea that was in [TS]

00:45:36   everybody's mind who was watching this [TS]

00:45:37   is that this is all this business about [TS]

00:45:40   technology fixing education it's not [TS]

00:45:42   about that we think that we're not going [TS]

00:45:45   to fix education I don't know how they [TS]

00:45:48   could say it without throwing them [TS]

00:45:49   without throw the textbook people under [TS]

00:45:50   the bus but to to acknowledge the the [TS]

00:45:54   counter-argument that that technology [TS]

00:45:56   doesn't matter and to say we think was [TS]

00:45:59   really important about education is not [TS]

00:46:01   wizzy videos and cool graphics but we'll [TS]

00:46:03   have them too but what really matters is [TS]

00:46:06   and then they have to make some other [TS]

00:46:07   kind of pitch about why this is [TS]

00:46:10   different than all previous efforts to [TS]

00:46:11   put technology into school so that maybe [TS]

00:46:14   they were stuck we can rock in a hard [TS]

00:46:16   place because there isn't a really [TS]

00:46:17   strong argument there and certainly [TS]

00:46:18   people like cool demos was when I was [TS]

00:46:20   thinking that someone god I don't know [TS]

00:46:22   if he the man himself sent to this to me [TS]

00:46:24   I think you did Paul Anderson I think [TS]

00:46:26   you're going to say state jobs now Paul [TS]

00:46:29   Anderson a teacher in Montana I think he [TS]

00:46:31   sent me this link himself it's a YouTube [TS]

00:46:33   video what was the title of it um it's [TS]

00:46:38   called no no no I got to go to my show [TS]

00:46:43   it's like what while you do that I'll do [TS]

00:46:44   our seconds so you're going [TS]

00:46:45   to coordinate this I'm looking at every [TS]

00:46:47   time I lose every time you lose track [TS]

00:46:49   and you can't find your notes it's just [TS]

00:46:50   it's a time to take a break there you go [TS]

00:46:53   episode is also sponsored by source bits [TS]

00:46:55   comm love I love these guys it's [TS]

00:46:58   providing software design and [TS]

00:47:00   development services for iOS Android Mac [TS]

00:47:02   and the web sounds like everything right [TS]

00:47:04   that's what that's what they focus on [TS]

00:47:06   they focus on of course you just want an [TS]

00:47:09   iOS app they'll make that for you you [TS]

00:47:11   want an iOS app that has an Android [TS]

00:47:15   equivalent and something that ties into [TS]

00:47:18   the Mac and also has a web service they [TS]

00:47:20   do all of those things they specialize [TS]

00:47:22   in this now they'll do they'll do just [TS]

00:47:24   the iOS app but a lot of the time if you [TS]

00:47:26   heard this week's build and analyze you [TS]

00:47:28   heard Marco talking about why Instapaper [TS]

00:47:30   needs a web service you need a web [TS]

00:47:31   service they'll build the whole thing [TS]

00:47:33   bleeding edge technology is what these [TS]

00:47:35   guys are all about they have a deep [TS]

00:47:37   experience and they have one of the most [TS]

00:47:39   important things a successful track [TS]

00:47:41   record you bring them your idea they [TS]

00:47:44   transform it into a functional tested [TS]

00:47:47   visually stunning world-class app and [TS]

00:47:49   they do it fast they save you money [TS]

00:47:51   because they do it right the first time [TS]

00:47:53   they know what they're doing it's [TS]

00:47:55   cutting-edge stuff source bits calm [TS]

00:47:59   longtime sponsor absolutely love these [TS]

00:48:01   guys great guys I had a meeting with [TS]

00:48:02   them last week great things coming in [TS]

00:48:05   2012 check them out source Fitz calm [TS]

00:48:10   side let's find your playing find your [TS]

00:48:12   notes on your place [TS]

00:48:13   the title of this video and our boss the [TS]

00:48:18   guy's name [TS]

00:48:18   I was disorganized see I told you I can [TS]

00:48:21   just imagine ode application in your [TS]

00:48:23   office it's it's things stacked up [TS]

00:48:25   papers everywhere Paul Andersen teacher [TS]

00:48:29   in Montana it sent me this video called [TS]

00:48:31   using game design to improve my [TS]

00:48:32   classroom now gamification has a bad rep [TS]

00:48:36   lately for anyone who's follows [TS]

00:48:38   technology right when I say gamification [TS]

00:48:40   I bet people the teeth go on edge like I [TS]

00:48:42   all that gamification thing you know [TS]

00:48:45   because it comes up in all the startup [TS]

00:48:46   tech blogs and it's kind of like buzz [TS]

00:48:49   wordy but mostly I think it's because [TS]

00:48:52   unscrupulous companies have been using [TS]

00:48:53   game theory to manipulate people for [TS]

00:48:56   evil you know [TS]

00:48:58   that's why people hate the idea of [TS]

00:49:00   gamification or the word camera fication [TS]

00:49:03   so farmville is a good example at least [TS]

00:49:06   you know Zynga is the the poster boy for [TS]

00:49:08   using gamification for evil or they have [TS]

00:49:10   these these Facebook games that from a [TS]

00:49:13   gamers perspective are not particularly [TS]

00:49:15   fun or particularly good games but [TS]

00:49:17   hammers so hard on the hot buttons of [TS]

00:49:20   gamification that they end up [TS]

00:49:22   manipulating millions of people into [TS]

00:49:23   obsessively playing in these games when [TS]

00:49:26   really what they're doing is you know it [TS]

00:49:30   amounts more to work than to play and so [TS]

00:49:34   someone made a parody game a long time [TS]

00:49:37   ago maybe not that long was his name [TS]

00:49:40   Ian Bogost there's an article about it [TS]

00:49:43   and wire that I put in the show notes [TS]

00:49:45   he made a parody game called cow clicker [TS]

00:49:47   have you heard of this no I can't people [TS]

00:49:51   have even debated putting in this [TS]

00:49:52   they're talking about this it was like [TS]

00:49:53   I'll surely ever insert a cow clicker [TS]

00:49:55   but not everyone travels in gamer [TS]

00:49:56   circles I guess GG p2m entry is very [TS]

00:50:00   short and basically boils down pretty [TS]

00:50:02   well for the wired article is more [TS]

00:50:03   interesting magazine article talking [TS]

00:50:05   about the person so this was he made [TS]

00:50:09   this game in response to these you know [TS]

00:50:12   Facebook Zynga type games where there's [TS]

00:50:15   they're mostly just making you click at [TS]

00:50:18   regular intervals and give them money [TS]

00:50:19   and he said well let me just boil it [TS]

00:50:21   down I'm going to make a game called cow [TS]

00:50:22   clicker and so here's here's the [TS]

00:50:24   functionality of the game distilled so [TS]

00:50:28   you got a cow obviously and your cow can [TS]

00:50:31   be clicked but you can only click your [TS]

00:50:33   cow once every six hours but you can [TS]

00:50:36   earn additional clicks and other items [TS]

00:50:39   by spending this this in-game currency [TS]

00:50:42   and players can collect more click what [TS]

00:50:44   happens when you click it nothing I mean [TS]

00:50:47   well you got to click and players can [TS]

00:50:49   collect more clicks by inviting their [TS]

00:50:50   friends into their pasture so this is [TS]

00:50:52   like literally it's a clicking thing and [TS]

00:50:55   it withholds your ability to click and [TS]

00:50:57   you then need to do things to satisfy [TS]

00:51:00   the game to get the ability to click [TS]

00:51:01   again which is very similar to you know [TS]

00:51:04   he's saying this is basically a farm [TS]

00:51:05   bill is come back at this time click on [TS]

00:51:06   these things click on your crops go [TS]

00:51:08   click on you know that the whole thing [TS]

00:51:09   is just you're getting sucked into this [TS]

00:51:11   world [TS]

00:51:12   you know eventually get you to buy [TS]

00:51:13   virtual items you can do more things in [TS]

00:51:15   this virtual world and it's not the many [TS]

00:51:17   good articles I should have found some [TS]

00:51:18   of them about how fundamentally [TS]

00:51:21   different playing those type of games is [TS]

00:51:23   than then what we consider actual play [TS]

00:51:24   for enjoyment purposes and these games [TS]

00:51:27   are successful because they take [TS]

00:51:28   advantages take advantage of human [TS]

00:51:31   nature to make it addictive and [TS]

00:51:33   compelling you know this the social [TS]

00:51:35   responsibility of your friends sends you [TS]

00:51:36   a stupid fruit and now you feel that [TS]

00:51:38   social obligation to respond to them in [TS]

00:51:39   kind then you get involved in this world [TS]

00:51:41   and really just if someone looks at the [TS]

00:51:43   outside looking in saying you're going [TS]

00:51:44   to wake up in the middle of the night [TS]

00:51:45   and tap a bunch of things on your on [TS]

00:51:47   your iPad screen and Facebook so that [TS]

00:51:49   you can harvest your crops so that you [TS]

00:51:52   won't lose those fruits that you but you [TS]

00:51:54   know it's you start losing connection [TS]

00:51:56   with reality that what you are you even [TS]

00:51:57   having fun anymore so I can help but I [TS]

00:51:59   have the sunk cost the phenomenon were [TS]

00:52:02   you like well I'm invested now and I [TS]

00:52:03   spent all this money and all this time [TS]

00:52:04   and I can't let these crops go and I got [TS]

00:52:07   to send these things these people in [TS]

00:52:08   this person set you know Oh cow clicker [TS]

00:52:10   is like fine we're gonna do a thing you [TS]

00:52:11   click the damn cow and we're gonna make [TS]

00:52:13   you want to click that cow like crazy [TS]

00:52:14   we're gonna use all these game theory [TS]

00:52:16   advancements and it's a supposed to be a [TS]

00:52:18   satire - no more not a more sad harder [TS]

00:52:21   than a parody to say to make people [TS]

00:52:23   realize wake up people you know this is [TS]

00:52:25   what you're doing in those Zynga games [TS]

00:52:26   you were literally just just like this [TS]

00:52:27   kick licking the cow and the wired story [TS]

00:52:30   is about how cow clicker became [TS]

00:52:33   fantastically popular and people loved [TS]

00:52:35   it and they wanted to buy different cows [TS]

00:52:37   and then what they were into it and they [TS]

00:52:39   just they couldn't wait what so the cow [TS]

00:52:41   the cow graphics like a cow sort of like [TS]

00:52:43   stand a three-quarter view of a cow [TS]

00:52:45   facing to the right uh he came out with [TS]

00:52:48   the cow that faces to the left people [TS]

00:52:49   went crazy oh my god every single cow [TS]

00:52:51   face to the right until then but now [TS]

00:52:53   there's a count of faces to left you [TS]

00:52:54   want you know hit he could created a [TS]

00:52:56   monster he was trying to make a satire [TS]

00:52:58   and he found that it's not possible this [TS]

00:52:59   attribute yeah make the satire that so [TS]

00:53:02   efficiently pushed those same buttons if [TS]

00:53:05   you were going up people didn't [TS]

00:53:06   understand it was the party they wanted [TS]

00:53:07   to do that cow clicker thing you can get [TS]

00:53:08   the you know the golden cow the steel [TS]

00:53:10   cow and you know just and literally just [TS]

00:53:13   the cow that you click on so and he [TS]

00:53:16   became quite depressed and upset about [TS]

00:53:18   his inability to make a satire that [TS]

00:53:21   people don't take literally uh and in [TS]

00:53:23   2011 finally he decided to have a cow [TS]

00:53:25   apocalypse and remove all the cow in a [TS]

00:53:29   cow rapture like basically killed he [TS]

00:53:31   killed everybody's cow and they were all [TS]

00:53:32   taken up to cow heaven uh and then so [TS]

00:53:35   fans constantly rankings however you [TS]

00:53:37   want you're gonna bring the cows back [TS]

00:53:38   what can we do to get those cows back I [TS]

00:53:40   want my you know so this is from the [TS]

00:53:43   Wikipedia article and it's also in the [TS]

00:53:44   wired article responding to a fans [TS]

00:53:46   complained that the game was not a fun [TS]

00:53:48   game after the cow rapture now now that [TS]

00:53:51   the only thing in the game cat was gone [TS]

00:53:52   and I can't click on it's not a fun game [TS]

00:53:53   or he responded it wasn't very fun [TS]

00:53:56   before either so this this is all I you [TS]

00:54:00   should read the article about the cow [TS]

00:54:01   clicker thing the wired article that I [TS]

00:54:03   linked it's it's all kind of depressing [TS]

00:54:07   and funny at the same time but this is [TS]

00:54:10   why gamification gets a bad rap because [TS]

00:54:13   of these companies that are using three [TS]

00:54:15   but gamification can be used for good [TS]

00:54:18   can definitely be used for good it's [TS]

00:54:20   it's a power I think the the evil that's [TS]

00:54:22   done with it shows what what a powerful [TS]

00:54:24   tool it is and so some people are asking [TS]

00:54:26   me well if you didn't want them to pitch [TS]

00:54:28   you on you know this wizzy multimedia [TS]

00:54:30   stuff with iBooks Author is going to [TS]

00:54:32   make education better what should they [TS]

00:54:33   have said I'm not saying this is what [TS]

00:54:34   they should have said but this is one [TS]

00:54:36   example of something that's at least a [TS]

00:54:38   newer argument not a new argument but a [TS]

00:54:41   newer argument than the the multimedia [TS]

00:54:43   cd-rom computers in school Apple to [TS]

00:54:45   revolutionize the world argument they [TS]

00:54:48   could have said we believe that engaging [TS]

00:54:53   students is not about wizzy graphics or [TS]

00:54:56   cool you know diagrams although those [TS]

00:54:58   can help too it's really about using [TS]

00:55:01   game theory to help them learn and so [TS]

00:55:03   this Paul Anderson video is a video [TS]

00:55:05   explaining how he uses gamification and [TS]

00:55:07   game theory to help his class to learn [TS]

00:55:10   better this is AP biology class in high [TS]

00:55:14   school so it the three tenants of game [TS]

00:55:19   world that he outlines in begin the [TS]

00:55:20   video is that like gaming school should [TS]

00:55:24   be fun so that's easy to say everyone [TS]

00:55:25   just say yes it's supposed to be fun [TS]

00:55:27   it's like well yeah well how do you make [TS]

00:55:28   it fun but he's laying it out there [TS]

00:55:29   because games people mostly people agree [TS]

00:55:31   the games are fun failure is commonplace [TS]

00:55:34   occurrence and something that happens [TS]

00:55:36   all the time and it's okay that happens [TS]

00:55:37   in games right but you know not so much [TS]

00:55:39   games but in real games part of the [TS]

00:55:41   thing is that you can fail and you just [TS]

00:55:43   try again and you fail and ride like [TS]

00:55:44   it's a consequence free environment for [TS]

00:55:46   for learning now you may be what you're [TS]

00:55:49   learning is how to time to jump [TS]

00:55:51   particularly well it's land on a [TS]

00:55:52   platform but you can use that same [TS]

00:55:54   framework where failure is something [TS]

00:55:56   okay and you know to overcome the fear [TS]

00:55:59   people have like participating in school [TS]

00:56:00   Pizza fraid they're going to be wrong [TS]

00:56:02   you know what I mean and the final one [TS]

00:56:04   is leveling which is from the the [TS]

00:56:06   role-playing game world where people [TS]

00:56:08   want to people attach value to [TS]

00:56:12   achievements in a virtual world that [TS]

00:56:13   don't make any sense when viewed from [TS]

00:56:15   the outside or in an objective way but [TS]

00:56:17   internally they do they do mean a lot [TS]

00:56:19   and it's the same you know the [TS]

00:56:20   invocation that these Zynga games make [TS]

00:56:23   you keep wanting to be in this world and [TS]

00:56:25   clicking to achieve these things that [TS]

00:56:26   only have meaning in this world that [TS]

00:56:28   works on people so yeah you know the [TS]

00:56:30   example he gives in the video is that [TS]

00:56:32   I'm sure everyone has been in a class [TS]

00:56:34   where what the teacher has said this [TS]

00:56:36   you're all starting out with an A in [TS]

00:56:38   this class like on the first day of [TS]

00:56:39   class you're at this one yeah and you [TS]

00:56:42   know you all start out with an A and [TS]

00:56:44   then if you I guess a the way that works [TS]

00:56:46   is if every error that you make or the [TS]

00:56:49   mistake you make where all you need to [TS]

00:56:51   do is keep the a exactly and then it's [TS]

00:56:53   really if you you do do something poorly [TS]

00:56:56   the lowers it but you have an a right [TS]

00:56:58   now everybody has an A right yeah and [TS]

00:57:00   they do that I think the teachers do [TS]

00:57:02   that maybe either trying to counteract [TS]

00:57:04   the idea of someone coming into class [TS]

00:57:05   and going oh I'm no good at math um I [TS]

00:57:07   know I'll just be happy if I get a C in [TS]

00:57:08   this class I'm probably not gonna do [TS]

00:57:10   well he wants to come and day one and [TS]

00:57:11   say everybody has an a to make that guy [TS]

00:57:14   who thinks he's gonna get C bits like oh [TS]

00:57:15   I'm no good at math think hey I've got [TS]

00:57:17   an A in math right now and I if I just [TS]

00:57:19   up I just work hard I can keep that [TS]

00:57:20   that's not effective game theory or very [TS]

00:57:24   least the more effective technique that [TS]

00:57:27   we've learned through through game [TS]

00:57:28   playing is the system of leveling where [TS]

00:57:31   you start at level one where you're a [TS]

00:57:32   wimp and you've got like the wooden [TS]

00:57:34   sword and and and no shield and the [TS]

00:57:36   leather armor right and motivate the [TS]

00:57:40   people to to level up to advance so a [TS]

00:57:43   you know instead of starting it with an [TS]

00:57:45   A and getting worse you start out with [TS]

00:57:47   like basically an F and he uses like [TS]

00:57:49   categories like you're a slime mold like [TS]

00:57:50   there's a biological things you keep [TS]

00:57:52   going up but the you know the [TS]

00:57:53   Neri ladder to be a more complex form of [TS]

00:57:55   life right so that you're climbing a [TS]

00:57:58   ladder so that maybe by halfway through [TS]

00:58:00   the course you're still you know only [TS]

00:58:03   level 3 where some people are already [TS]

00:58:04   level 10 you know and level level 15 is [TS]

00:58:06   an A or something but it doesn't mean [TS]

00:58:09   you can't make it it just like in a [TS]

00:58:10   video game where your friends are [TS]

00:58:11   playing you know a massively multiplayer [TS]

00:58:13   game and they've leveled faster than you [TS]

00:58:14   where you can just grind a little bit [TS]

00:58:16   and catch up with them and then and then [TS]

00:58:17   go raiding with them when you once [TS]

00:58:18   you've matched your level right and [TS]

00:58:20   people kids obviously are familiar with [TS]

00:58:23   that phenomenon is because they've [TS]

00:58:24   played video games but that's it's a way [TS]

00:58:27   to say you know hey you can make it it's [TS]

00:58:29   just like in the video games or you know [TS]

00:58:30   you know you just because you're behind [TS]

00:58:32   now you can still build your way up to [TS]

00:58:34   an A and that thing of like oh let me [TS]

00:58:35   grind a little bit so I can match your [TS]

00:58:36   level well that's like let me stop you a [TS]

00:58:38   little bit harder so I can catch up with [TS]

00:58:39   you you're tricking them into studying [TS]

00:58:42   and learning the material so they can [TS]

00:58:43   achieve a level that they've seen the [TS]

00:58:45   other people achieve and they think and [TS]

00:58:46   the fact that they fail at doing it or [TS]

00:58:48   whatever it's fine you get to try [TS]

00:58:50   another time and you look at the stuff [TS]

00:58:52   he's using to build this course and most [TS]

00:58:53   like web-based materials and a bunch of [TS]

00:58:55   software that I never heard of one of [TS]

00:58:56   them is called Moodle it's all kind of [TS]

00:58:58   like a patchwork of poems I've never [TS]

00:59:01   heard of that maybe people in education [TS]

00:59:02   world I've heard of but it's not like a [TS]

00:59:03   single vendor is providing a a turnkey [TS]

00:59:08   solution to all his needs he's [TS]

00:59:09   assembling this from bits and pieces you [TS]

00:59:12   know and tweaking it as he goes and [TS]

00:59:14   learning how the kids game the system [TS]

00:59:15   which obviously they will to try you [TS]

00:59:17   know like multiple-choice tests you [TS]

00:59:18   don't to give them infinite chances [TS]

00:59:19   because littles go through and through [TS]

00:59:20   process of elimination you know so he [TS]

00:59:23   has randomized questions and a certain [TS]

00:59:25   number of times you can try a test then [TS]

00:59:28   well so they have like leaderboards this [TS]

00:59:31   class versus class competitions where [TS]

00:59:32   like you may not be doing that well but [TS]

00:59:34   your classes the whole is competing [TS]

00:59:35   against the other class as a whole which [TS]

00:59:36   is kind of like clan battling in the [TS]

00:59:38   online multiplayer game space there are [TS]

00:59:40   leaderboards they have big histograms of [TS]

00:59:42   the class's performance of you know what [TS]

00:59:45   level everybody is that this again I'm [TS]

00:59:48   not pitching like Oh gamification as [TS]

00:59:50   that is the the be-all end-all of [TS]

00:59:52   Education but this is an example of a [TS]

00:59:53   newish approach to improving education [TS]

00:59:57   that yet involves technology and [TS]

00:59:59   involves web [TS]

00:59:59   involves web [TS]

01:00:00   based software and electronic tracking [TS]

01:00:01   of things out nothing has he added a [TS]

01:00:03   narrative like a narrative framework [TS]

01:00:05   like someone's coming back in time to [TS]

01:00:07   look for people to help them with [TS]

01:00:08   biology so it's like a story you go [TS]

01:00:09   through it these are ways to engage [TS]

01:00:11   students that don't necessarily have [TS]

01:00:13   anything to do with technology like you [TS]

01:00:14   can imagine someone in the you know 18th [TS]

01:00:17   century building a narrative class [TS]

01:00:19   structure around learning Latin or [TS]

01:00:21   whatever to engage students and trick [TS]

01:00:24   them into learning using game theory [TS]

01:00:26   they had nothing to do with technology [TS]

01:00:27   just had to do with you know Dungeons & [TS]

01:00:29   Dragons pen and paper like all happening [TS]

01:00:30   in their head type of stuff you can use [TS]

01:00:32   these tools that are so effective you [TS]

01:00:35   can use them for good instead of evil ah [TS]

01:00:36   and that would that's an example of [TS]

01:00:39   pitch that Apple could have gone with it [TS]

01:00:40   technology is not the not what we're [TS]

01:00:43   selling here it's really a new better [TS]

01:00:46   way to to get kids to learn and [TS]

01:00:48   technologies this tool to let us do that [TS]

01:00:50   versus what I think is also a noble goal [TS]

01:00:54   to take a dysfunctional market for [TS]

01:00:57   education materials and make it less [TS]

01:00:59   dysfunctional while at the same time [TS]

01:01:01   coming becoming the new dominant leader [TS]

01:01:02   in it but it's not it the presentation [TS]

01:01:05   they gave wasn't either one of those [TS]

01:01:06   things and man this is follow up huh [TS]

01:01:11   one final note on the presentation which [TS]

01:01:13   I finally watched Phil Schiller during [TS]

01:01:15   the presentation which by the way he's [TS]

01:01:17   looking very trim and slim don't you [TS]

01:01:19   think hey slim it down he's come a long [TS]

01:01:21   way in this in the spotlight more often [TS]

01:01:23   yeah uh you know I could trade [TS]

01:01:26   he did his Phil Schiller normal job I [TS]

01:01:28   think did a good job but at one point he [TS]

01:01:29   said the iPad is quote a lot more [TS]

01:01:33   durable than paper and binding now what [TS]

01:01:37   he probably meant was you know digital [TS]

01:01:40   content is more durable than physical [TS]

01:01:41   I'm doing I think his weight because you [TS]

01:01:43   can because you can physically you know [TS]

01:01:45   you can infinitely copy it it doesn't [TS]

01:01:46   lose quality all you know all that all [TS]

01:01:48   that business right that's not what he [TS]

01:01:50   said though what he said was that the [TS]

01:01:51   iPad was a lot more durable than paper [TS]

01:01:53   and binding and I tweeted about the [TS]

01:01:56   absurdity of this which was probably [TS]

01:01:58   just they I don't know poorly presented [TS]

01:02:01   he has a valid point in there but that's [TS]

01:02:03   not the point he made so calling him out [TS]

01:02:05   for it is like you know ha whatever then [TS]

01:02:07   people argued with this that they said [TS]

01:02:09   no actually the point that he [TS]

01:02:10   accidentally made there is valid and [TS]

01:02:12   that [TS]

01:02:13   yeah it really is more durable in [TS]

01:02:15   textbooks because textbook so they get [TS]

01:02:17   the pages torn out and if they get wet [TS]

01:02:18   they that you know people draw on them [TS]

01:02:21   and all these horrible things happen and [TS]

01:02:22   you know so here here's some pros and [TS]

01:02:28   cons just to delay it's out for people [TS]

01:02:29   so the pros of digital content / [TS]

01:02:32   physical content so it's more durable as [TS]

01:02:35   you said you can make infinite copies of [TS]

01:02:36   it in theory dear I'm allowing bubble [TS]

01:02:38   blob you know it doesn't just [TS]

01:02:40   deteriorate with use so I would like [TS]

01:02:42   digital music even though it's crap your [TS]

01:02:44   quality then finally every time I play [TS]

01:02:45   that Rhino record it gets worse you know [TS]

01:02:48   how many torn pages I think a point that [TS]

01:02:52   a lot of people brought up but I think [TS]

01:02:53   it's the probably the biggest point in [TS]

01:02:54   favor of the iPad is that if you have if [TS]

01:02:58   you're using an iPad for all your [TS]

01:03:00   curriculum you concentrate all of the [TS]

01:03:02   students care on preserving a single [TS]

01:03:05   thing instead of having 15 books having [TS]

01:03:08   to like make sure you don't drop all the [TS]

01:03:09   different books and putting them in your [TS]

01:03:10   locker and take them out or you just got [TS]

01:03:11   this one thing to concentrate on it's [TS]

01:03:13   like the the sack of flour baby that you [TS]

01:03:15   get in school I just concentrate all [TS]

01:03:17   your your energy on making sure you [TS]

01:03:19   don't break this thing and the iPad like [TS]

01:03:21   looks fancy and shiny and kids [TS]

01:03:22   acknowledged kids understand that it's [TS]

01:03:24   more expensive even though if that iPad [TS]

01:03:26   is half as expensive as all the [TS]

01:03:28   textbooks combined they don't think of [TS]

01:03:29   it that way right so in that way you [TS]

01:03:32   could make kids a lot more careful with [TS]

01:03:34   an iPad than they are with their books [TS]

01:03:35   but the cons are pretty obvious the [TS]

01:03:38   thing I put in mine I tweeted about this [TS]

01:03:40   is it does any want to do a drop test [TS]

01:03:42   let's drop a textbook from waist height [TS]

01:03:44   onto a linoleum floor in a school and [TS]

01:03:46   now let's do the same thing with an iPad [TS]

01:03:48   and so that's just a straight drop let's [TS]

01:03:51   try the whoops knocked it off my desk [TS]

01:03:52   and have it rotate as it goes down and [TS]

01:03:54   lands on the hard linoleum floor which [TS]

01:03:56   you know maybe you'll bend the cover [TS]

01:03:58   maybe the the book willis plate out on [TS]

01:04:00   the thing but you can still use it yeah [TS]

01:04:02   that iPad man it doesn't take much [TS]

01:04:04   impact to shatter that screen it really [TS]

01:04:06   doesn't and there was somebody else who [TS]

01:04:07   wrote in I'm pretty sure it was to us [TS]

01:04:09   that said that they wouldn't get their [TS]

01:04:12   kids maybe he's on Twitter they wouldn't [TS]

01:04:14   get their kids iPads because they [TS]

01:04:15   wouldn't want to get stolen yeah I mean [TS]

01:04:18   no no I'm not saying nobody would steal [TS]

01:04:20   a text book like I remember actually [TS]

01:04:22   kids doing that like they would lose or [TS]

01:04:24   whatever their textbook and they'd have [TS]

01:04:25   to pay 50 bucks or something for it so [TS]

01:04:27   still one I mean an iPad you would steal [TS]

01:04:30   whether or not there's textbooks on you [TS]

01:04:33   know somebody wants to steal it there's [TS]

01:04:34   a lot of value in an iPad that comes [TS]

01:04:38   down to physical safety though I mean [TS]

01:04:40   that's that's your that's your number [TS]

01:04:42   one reason it did the diamond clearly [TS]

01:04:45   didn't people like maybe leave the iPads [TS]

01:04:47   in school or if you take them home like [TS]

01:04:49   you just creating conveyor Man physical [TS]

01:04:51   say it's not I don't think you can blame [TS]

01:04:52   Apple like that guy did when he left the [TS]

01:04:54   Apple store to the store yeah the guy [TS]

01:04:56   leaves the Apple store we gonna put that [TS]

01:04:57   in the show notes a guy Lee walks out of [TS]

01:04:59   the Apple store and I guess he he bought [TS]

01:05:03   what was an iMac he bought something and [TS]

01:05:06   you hear stories of like somebody [TS]

01:05:08   walking out of the Apple store getting [TS]

01:05:09   right that's not what happened he got he [TS]

01:05:10   walked out of the store went into his [TS]

01:05:12   car drove got gas picked up a sandwich [TS]

01:05:15   and that was it there at while they were [TS]

01:05:18   at the sandwich shop or something like [TS]

01:05:19   that that he was getting gas he went [TS]

01:05:21   into like the little mini-mart to get [TS]

01:05:22   something for two minutes and came back [TS]

01:05:24   out and everything had been taken out of [TS]

01:05:25   his car yeah well we will put that along [TS]

01:05:27   with everything else in the show notes [TS]

01:05:29   and by the way we want to say thanks to [TS]

01:05:30   help spot calm the loveliest ladies in [TS]

01:05:34   helpdesk business creating really great [TS]

01:05:38   help desk software help desk stop [TS]

01:05:40   software if I can say it correctly help [TS]

01:05:42   spot.com is where you could find out [TS]

01:05:44   about that but yeah I didn't this crazy [TS]

01:05:46   I mean he was a lawyer though he was [TS]

01:05:48   stopped but he was like it was its [TS]

01:05:50   creepy because he was stalked now is it [TS]

01:05:53   wasn't just like he walks out of the [TS]

01:05:54   store ponder and run you know okay okay [TS]

01:05:56   take the iMac go they like followed him [TS]

01:05:59   for a long didn't have his daughter with [TS]

01:06:01   him too [TS]

01:06:02   and this is I'm sure this is a common [TS]

01:06:04   story but the absurd part of his course [TS]

01:06:06   that he thinks it's apples is apples [TS]

01:06:07   fall well in such a desirable I don't [TS]

01:06:10   think he think I don't think he thinks [TS]

01:06:11   he just wants there's a lawyer yeah he's [TS]

01:06:13   just the law I mean in this country that [TS]

01:06:15   was America right yeah I mean it it's [TS]

01:06:19   you it's hard to say there isn't a [TS]

01:06:21   litigious lawyer but that's just [TS]

01:06:23   ridiculous how could that be Apple's [TS]

01:06:24   fault yeah it's just it's absurd but [TS]

01:06:28   this is a real phenomenon like when when [TS]

01:06:30   I we haven't even discussed this on the [TS]

01:06:31   show somehow even if you yelled to me [TS]

01:06:33   for not discussing it you didn't bring [TS]

01:06:35   it up but when when I got my wife's eye [TS]

01:06:37   iPhone which she got for Christmas she [TS]

01:06:39   got an iPhone for us [TS]

01:06:41   when we were going on we bought it [TS]

01:06:43   together when we were going out of the [TS]

01:06:44   store with it I said you know she put it [TS]

01:06:46   into her purse like they just give you [TS]

01:06:48   the little box or whatever I said you [TS]

01:06:49   gotta zip your purse up and you know we [TS]

01:06:50   were eating in a restaurant I said you [TS]

01:06:51   got to keep that out of the way like [TS]

01:06:52   don't let anyone see that you have don't [TS]

01:06:54   don't get the bag from the Apple store [TS]

01:06:55   don't let anyone see that's pop sticking [TS]

01:06:57   out of your purses and iPhone just put [TS]

01:06:59   it in there zip it up and keep it away [TS]

01:07:00   of course I'm I'm a New Yorker so that's [TS]

01:07:03   my natural inclination anyways to avoid [TS]

01:07:06   criminals and assume that everyone's [TS]

01:07:08   gonna steal my stuff but oh yeah that's [TS]

01:07:10   kind of ridiculous but no a side tracked [TS]

01:07:12   here on the only the durability so yeah [TS]

01:07:13   that is that is probably a con in the [TS]

01:07:15   iPad column is that it is immoral [TS]

01:07:17   desirable theft target ah but you know [TS]

01:07:21   he may have meant dated durability but [TS]

01:07:23   it was funny if you just look at the [TS]

01:07:25   video it seems like he's saying that [TS]

01:07:26   they are actually more physically [TS]

01:07:27   durable on it you know more physically [TS]

01:07:30   sturdy than books because textbooks are [TS]

01:07:33   incredibly physically stay those part [TS]

01:07:35   that was another point in the [TS]

01:07:36   presentation where he says look at these [TS]

01:07:40   text books like they're old and you just [TS]

01:07:42   keep having them for years you can't get [TS]

01:07:43   rid of them and then later he says all [TS]

01:07:45   the text books aren't durable and they [TS]

01:07:46   get all beat up and everything like that [TS]

01:07:47   they do get all beat up but they also [TS]

01:07:49   last for years like I had textbooks in [TS]

01:07:50   school that were probably like seven [TS]

01:07:52   eight years old and some people from [TS]

01:07:53   education industry in schools were wrote [TS]

01:07:56   to tell me that yeah we try to replace [TS]

01:07:58   textbooks on a shorter cycle but we have [TS]

01:08:01   some you know they're often around four [TS]

01:08:02   five six seven years or longer if [TS]

01:08:04   there's not a budget to replace them and [TS]

01:08:05   so you just keep using them I don't [TS]

01:08:08   think by the way that all this has is [TS]

01:08:09   any reason not to use iPads in school [TS]

01:08:12   it's just this is going to be a new it's [TS]

01:08:13   a new fact of life you don't all we [TS]

01:08:16   can't put computers in school because [TS]

01:08:17   that your delicate kids will break them [TS]

01:08:18   well you know you just have to deal with [TS]

01:08:20   that find a way to deal with that you [TS]

01:08:21   can't stop progress because the new [TS]

01:08:24   thing is it not exactly like the old [TS]

01:08:25   thing in every possible way that's not [TS]

01:08:27   my argument at all but if I were making [TS]

01:08:29   a pitch for why schools should use iPads [TS]

01:08:31   I would probably not hammer on the [TS]

01:08:33   durability thing even if I had a valid [TS]

01:08:35   point about David durability it's too [TS]

01:08:37   easy to look like you're trying to say [TS]

01:08:39   that this $500 piece of glass is more [TS]

01:08:43   durable than a big blob of paper and [TS]

01:08:50   there are many things I can do with this [TS]

01:08:51   I also how will schools deal with this [TS]

01:08:53   someone chat room said that [TS]

01:08:54   schools near him I think he said in [TS]

01:08:56   Massachusetts even let students buy [TS]

01:08:58   insurance [TS]

01:08:59   sounds like 40 bucks a year for the [TS]

01:09:00   insurance on a thing otherwise if you [TS]

01:09:02   break it you got to pay for it you know [TS]

01:09:04   there's plenty of ways to fix this you [TS]

01:09:06   can put cases on them a lot of people [TS]

01:09:07   said are you trying to say that Apple's [TS]

01:09:09   gonna give people naked iPads that's [TS]

01:09:10   crazy you know that's not true I think [TS]

01:09:12   they would give naked iPad it's not [TS]

01:09:13   their problem to not break them you [TS]

01:09:14   break them you buy another one you know [TS]

01:09:16   schools can put cases on them in but [TS]

01:09:18   there's no case you can put on that [TS]

01:09:19   thing that's gonna change the fact that [TS]

01:09:21   it's a big pane of glass and you know [TS]

01:09:24   you get yeah how many times you seen a [TS]

01:09:25   student call a high school student get [TS]

01:09:27   up from desk with the book and [TS]

01:09:29   accidentally hit the edge of the book [TS]

01:09:30   and it flips off the desk it rotates to [TS]

01:09:32   the ground from desk height onto [TS]

01:09:33   linoleum school floor is death for an [TS]

01:09:35   iPad and lots of people in the chat room [TS]

01:09:37   also said oh you know I've dropped my [TS]

01:09:39   iPad from the top of a 12 foot ladder [TS]

01:09:41   onto a pit of spikes and it survived I'm [TS]

01:09:43   sure there are plenty of things that you [TS]

01:09:46   can do you know all you got lucky and it [TS]

01:09:49   didn't happen to break just yet all [TS]

01:09:52   these people I would challenge them I'll [TS]

01:09:53   get a physical textbook you get your [TS]

01:09:54   iPad and we will do a series of [TS]

01:09:55   scientific tests at different angles and [TS]

01:09:57   velocities under different services and [TS]

01:09:58   you are you up for that and now of [TS]

01:10:00   course they're not because they know [TS]

01:10:01   despite the fact that oh well it's a lot [TS]

01:10:03   more durable than I thought I dropped it [TS]

01:10:05   onto my linoleum kitchen floor and it [TS]

01:10:07   survived because it landed the right way [TS]

01:10:08   so boy I thought it would have broken [TS]

01:10:09   but it didn't but there's other people [TS]

01:10:11   who are like I dropped the three inches [TS]

01:10:12   onto concrete in a shaft right and [TS]

01:10:13   there's something else to consider for [TS]

01:10:15   those who are saying things like that if [TS]

01:10:16   you don't have kids kids find a way to [TS]

01:10:19   break something that that you think you [TS]

01:10:20   can't be broken they'll find a way and [TS]

01:10:23   they'll do it the first time well not [TS]

01:10:25   even the first time those I think it's [TS]

01:10:26   all about trials like oh you know my [TS]

01:10:28   thing survived like oh so I would you [TS]

01:10:29   know you want to use science now let's [TS]

01:10:31   do a series of trials no one wants to do [TS]

01:10:33   a series of trials because they know in [TS]

01:10:34   their heart like it's not adorable I [TS]

01:10:36   want that one lucky one to count as [TS]

01:10:38   their David are you aren't unison aren't [TS]

01:10:40   you just picking on semantics maybe he [TS]

01:10:42   meant more you know and I used the word [TS]

01:10:43   different I was making a joke like it's [TS]

01:10:45   funny that what he what he said I don't [TS]

01:10:47   think that Apple as a company in its [TS]

01:10:49   heart believes that the iPads a more [TS]

01:10:51   doable than looks but the presentation [TS]

01:10:53   was humorously misleading in that [TS]

01:10:56   particular portion that I think if you [TS]

01:10:58   let anyone watch it they'll all have the [TS]

01:10:59   same reaction like wait he's saying [TS]

01:11:00   iPads are more durable it was not well [TS]

01:11:03   worded so this is not like complaining [TS]

01:11:06   that Apple's trying to lie to people or [TS]

01:11:07   mislead them there [TS]

01:11:08   just sloppy presentation you know and [TS]

01:11:10   and I was that's why I said if you're [TS]

01:11:12   trying to pitch iPad in education just [TS]

01:11:14   stay away from the durability topic or [TS]

01:11:15   come at it with an acknowledgement like [TS]

01:11:17   people are going to say that iPads are [TS]

01:11:18   going to break but actually it has these [TS]

01:11:19   other advantages [TS]

01:11:20   you know don't come at it and and don't [TS]

01:11:23   try to like do the Republican strategy [TS]

01:11:25   thing where you take what is your [TS]

01:11:26   considered your weakness and try to make [TS]

01:11:28   it your strengths by just contradicting [TS]

01:11:30   it now well in fact iPads are super [TS]

01:11:32   durable or they're more durable than you [TS]

01:11:34   think just don't that's not a strong [TS]

01:11:35   point for you if you're pitching you [TS]

01:11:37   have many other good strong points to [TS]

01:11:38   the iPad let's not hammer on that one [TS]

01:11:40   you know and if you're gonna do anything [TS]

01:11:42   about data durability make clearly [TS]

01:11:43   you're not talking about the hardware [TS]

01:11:47   boy that was follow-up that was [TS]

01:11:50   follow-up for iBooks Author ok so what's [TS]

01:11:52   today's topic near the Wikipedia I guess [TS]

01:11:56   72 minutes in you wanted you want to do [TS]

01:11:58   the topic yeah if I was trying to have [TS]

01:12:01   short shows I would end it now order [TS]

01:12:03   your feelings on that I don't know [TS]

01:12:05   you're you're the one with the new [TS]

01:12:06   year's resolution yeah [TS]

01:12:07   today's notes just yeah they're just too [TS]

01:12:11   much okay we could you look at me I [TS]

01:12:14   can't I don't want to push it off for [TS]

01:12:15   two things I'm gonna do it could be I [TS]

01:12:16   don't think I'll pick that one well how [TS]

01:12:18   about this we'll just we'll give [TS]

01:12:19   ourselves a time limit we'll say 15 [TS]

01:12:21   minutes it's 12:15 [TS]

01:12:22   I don't agree sometime and set a limit [TS]

01:12:25   it's that's too open we'll see how this [TS]

01:12:29   goes uh so Wikipedia I guess I'll start [TS]

01:12:36   by saying what how much experience do [TS]

01:12:39   you have a look at video let's start [TS]

01:12:40   there how much experience do I have with [TS]

01:12:42   it do you mean as a as a person who uses [TS]

01:12:45   it as the perfect and infinitely correct [TS]

01:12:49   source of all wisdom that I use it for [TS]

01:12:51   that all the time [TS]

01:12:52   any fun this is a continuum the [TS]

01:12:55   continuum here is person who's heard the [TS]

01:12:57   word Wikipedia on the news once that's [TS]

01:12:58   like the low end of this program and the [TS]

01:13:01   other end is a I don't know what their [TS]

01:13:04   names are like a Wikipedia administrator [TS]

01:13:05   editor who has been you know like a [TS]

01:13:08   moderator on this like a right like they [TS]

01:13:10   have certain pages that they help curate [TS]

01:13:12   and verify content on yeah and they're [TS]

01:13:14   very and they've been in Wikipedia for [TS]

01:13:16   years and they know all the rules of the [TS]

01:13:17   system and all that stuff or whatever [TS]

01:13:18   like that's us the continuum so we're in [TS]

01:13:20   that continuum are you [TS]

01:13:21   I I would say I'm probably at the [TS]

01:13:24   midpoint in that I have edited or [TS]

01:13:27   contributed to several Wikipedia entries [TS]

01:13:30   in a non malicious beneficial kind of [TS]

01:13:33   way so maybe that's kind of if the first [TS]

01:13:39   thing you said was a1 and the last thing [TS]

01:13:40   you said was the ten maybe I'm like a [TS]

01:13:42   six so you've done edits but like not [TS]

01:13:44   you're not like spending hours and hours [TS]

01:13:46   and just hundreds of thousands of words [TS]

01:13:48   editing needed them like minor edits [TS]

01:13:49   like maybe three or four pages of text [TS]

01:13:50   you'd say you've contributed life time [TS]

01:13:52   the last last it's like small edits yeah [TS]

01:13:55   like when I see something that's just [TS]

01:13:57   egregiously wrong and I know that it's [TS]

01:13:59   wrong I might get in there and edit it [TS]

01:14:02   but that's a rare a rare thing so and my [TS]

01:14:08   experience is similar or was similar up [TS]

01:14:10   until maybe 2006 where like I read [TS]

01:14:13   Wikipedia of course as we all do and [TS]

01:14:14   made some minor edits here and there [TS]

01:14:15   where you see something that's wrong now [TS]

01:14:17   what do you [TS]

01:14:19   given that what do you think Wikipedia [TS]

01:14:21   is like if you had to explain not to [TS]

01:14:23   explain to somebody else what it is but [TS]

01:14:25   to say like it here's why Wikipedia is a [TS]

01:14:29   useful thing like what is what is the [TS]

01:14:31   goal of Wikipedia I don't know what they [TS]

01:14:34   would define as their goal but I would [TS]

01:14:36   define the the goal from my perception [TS]

01:14:39   as being a place to have current and I I [TS]

01:14:44   would put accurate whether that's true [TS]

01:14:47   or not is debatable but I would say to [TS]

01:14:49   have very current up-to-date and [TS]

01:14:51   accurate information about everything [TS]

01:14:54   that matters and that the main thing I [TS]

01:14:58   would say and my impression of Wikipedia [TS]

01:15:00   was that yeah so that's what they're [TS]

01:15:01   trying to do and the thing that makes it [TS]

01:15:02   different is it's like let's everybody [TS]

01:15:05   work together to achieve that goal right [TS]

01:15:07   like not a bunch of people write it and [TS]

01:15:09   you read it it's everybody we we work [TS]

01:15:11   together anybody can do it like this no [TS]

01:15:14   the barrier to entry is low and it we're [TS]

01:15:16   all going to work together towards this [TS]

01:15:18   common goal and it's what the common [TS]

01:15:19   goal is that I that is interesting to me [TS]

01:15:23   because what were you saying like that [TS]

01:15:24   what would you say is the goal of always [TS]

01:15:26   working together on these Wikipedia [TS]

01:15:27   pages the goal is to have the most [TS]

01:15:30   complete and open-minded [TS]

01:15:34   entry possible so that we're not just [TS]

01:15:37   getting you know one particular [TS]

01:15:41   potentially biased dataset we're getting [TS]

01:15:45   the complete picture we're getting the [TS]

01:15:47   whole story we're getting it in an [TS]

01:15:49   unbiased forward-thinking open-minded [TS]

01:15:52   and true and fact checked and [TS]

01:15:55   cross-checked kind of way it's a [TS]

01:15:57   collaborative and elaborate event that a [TS]

01:16:00   whole bunch of people can work together [TS]

01:16:03   to heard something towards a better [TS]

01:16:05   final state than just two or three [TS]

01:16:07   authors even if the two or three officer [TS]

01:16:08   X experts the pitcher Wikipedia is that [TS]

01:16:13   you know in my mind back back when I [TS]

01:16:15   first was getting into Wikipedia was [TS]

01:16:18   that all of us are going to work [TS]

01:16:19   together and all of us together can do [TS]

01:16:21   better than those two or three guys that [TS]

01:16:22   like Britannica or okay so wait a minute [TS]

01:16:24   where where are you on this scale uh [TS]

01:16:26   well let me tell my wikipedia story then [TS]

01:16:29   you'll see where I ended up okay so this [TS]

01:16:31   is what I thought working pedia was uh [TS]

01:16:33   and my first real like I did like minor [TS]

01:16:37   edits like fixing typos and I don't know [TS]

01:16:38   that I mean probably mostly probably [TS]

01:16:40   didn't anima set up so the first I think [TS]

01:16:42   the first time I actually created an [TS]

01:16:43   account was when back in 2006 when [TS]

01:16:46   somebody made an article and Wikipedia [TS]

01:16:49   4ft FFT you know what that stands for [TS]

01:16:51   yes you do s t ft FL we I have no idea I [TS]

01:16:57   thought you were saying STF you know I [TS]

01:17:00   have no idea what that is yeah so that F [TS]

01:17:03   DF f stands for fixed the effing finder [TS]

01:17:06   but it's not effing and it was a an [TS]

01:17:09   acronym that came to start I think had [TS]

01:17:12   his origins in the ARS technica forums [TS]

01:17:14   like out this is back when I was writing [TS]

01:17:15   all those articles about how the finder [TS]

01:17:17   wasn't very good and how I thought it [TS]

01:17:19   should be and the problem with the Mac [TS]

01:17:20   os10 finder and people in the forum's as [TS]

01:17:24   a shorthand for like what do you want to [TS]

01:17:26   see in the next version of Mac OS 10 or [TS]

01:17:28   do you think these public betas are [TS]

01:17:29   going along or how the developer [TS]

01:17:30   releases it was you know one of the [TS]

01:17:33   things they would list is like printings [TS]

01:17:34   got to be better and it's too slow and [TS]

01:17:36   FD FF it became sort of a term of art [TS]

01:17:40   might saying and eventually it leaked [TS]

01:17:42   out of the ARS technica forums on to all [TS]

01:17:44   the other Mac websites that were big [TS]

01:17:45   back then Mac central makanan [TS]

01:17:47   AppleInsider [TS]

01:17:48   anytime weather with a bunch of nerds [TS]

01:17:49   discussing like this new Mac os10 thing [TS]

01:17:52   that's supposed to replace Mac OS 9 what [TS]

01:17:53   do we think about it what does it need [TS]

01:17:55   what does it have what is to not have or [TS]

01:17:56   like hey you know 10.1 is pretty good in [TS]

01:17:59   everything but they still didn't FD FF [TS]

01:18:00   all right so someone made a Wikipedia [TS]

01:18:02   article for this because if someone was [TS]

01:18:04   reading if you were to read all the Mac [TS]

01:18:06   web back then in particularly the forums [TS]

01:18:08   and everything and you saw this acronym [TS]

01:18:09   you may be net wouldn't understand what [TS]

01:18:11   it is where does this come from why did [TS]

01:18:12   someone make up a second and why are [TS]

01:18:14   these people all writing sdff with [TS]

01:18:15   exclamation points after it you know not [TS]

01:18:18   just like urban dictionary like where [TS]

01:18:19   does it stand for [TS]

01:18:20   but like the origins and what's behind [TS]

01:18:22   this who cares about the fonder what's [TS]

01:18:24   so different about this finder than the [TS]

01:18:25   other finder anything like that and for [TS]

01:18:27   obvious reasons I thought I had stuff to [TS]

01:18:29   contribute to this because like oh you [TS]

01:18:31   know I never used this term in any of my [TS]

01:18:33   articles in the first time first time I [TS]

01:18:34   used it was out two years after it [TS]

01:18:36   appeared I was referencing other people [TS]

01:18:37   using it cuz I you know I've been [TS]

01:18:39   complaining about the finder you know [TS]

01:18:41   it's the old FD FF meme that usually you [TS]

01:18:43   know so I was in the originator of this [TS]

01:18:45   term uh [TS]

01:18:46   and you know I figured well but I do [TS]

01:18:50   know a lot about it and so I can give [TS]

01:18:52   background like why why did these people [TS]

01:18:54   invent this term and what are they [TS]

01:18:56   trying to say because I did have you [TS]

01:18:58   know I did have a lot of say in the [TS]

01:18:59   objections to the finder now this was a [TS]

01:19:02   time that people may not remember where [TS]

01:19:04   I was mostly known for saying horrible [TS]

01:19:06   things about Mac os10 [TS]

01:19:07   and people who loved apple hated me [TS]

01:19:10   because I was saying bad things about [TS]

01:19:12   their new shiny thing and I was not [TS]

01:19:14   supposed to say bad things about I [TS]

01:19:15   supposed I was supposed to like it and [TS]

01:19:16   you know is the typical people who were [TS]

01:19:18   anything bad you say about Apple they [TS]

01:19:21   were complaining and those people were [TS]

01:19:23   much more much louder and much more [TS]

01:19:26   common back then than they are now [TS]

01:19:27   because I feel like most people are very [TS]

01:19:29   secure with Apple success now for the [TS]

01:19:30   most part whereas back then Apple really [TS]

01:19:32   was their success was not assured the [TS]

01:19:35   iPod was just coming out around that [TS]

01:19:37   time the mac os9 was not doing well they [TS]

01:19:40   weren't saying a lot of Mac's Apple was [TS]

01:19:42   just coming off of almost going out of [TS]

01:19:45   business so the at the Apple fans were a [TS]

01:19:47   little bit freaked out and so anytime [TS]

01:19:49   anyone says anything about it they would [TS]

01:19:51   jump on top of you now somebody made [TS]

01:19:53   this article about FDF FM was filling it [TS]

01:19:55   out there's a link to it in the show [TS]

01:19:57   notes [TS]

01:19:57   and what happened after got to about a [TS]

01:20:00   page in length of people like saying oh [TS]

01:20:01   here's where [TS]

01:20:02   from and here's what the complaints [TS]

01:20:03   aren't here the people say was someone [TS]

01:20:05   marked it for deletion and they said you [TS]

01:20:07   know we would like to leave this article [TS]

01:20:09   blah blah and here's here's a discussion [TS]

01:20:10   page where we can discuss whether you [TS]

01:20:12   think this thing should be deleted or [TS]

01:20:13   not and this surprised me because I said [TS]

01:20:17   wait a second what what do you mean [TS]

01:20:19   marked for deletion we've got this thing [TS]

01:20:20   here explaining this term is like you [TS]

01:20:22   know I was like five or six or a handful [TS]

01:20:23   of people from who we're familiar with [TS]

01:20:26   this term from the forums and stuff like [TS]

01:20:27   that [TS]

01:20:29   contributing we're working together on [TS]

01:20:30   this document to explain what what is [TS]

01:20:32   this F D F F thing with what are the [TS]

01:20:33   complaints about the finder right ah and [TS]

01:20:37   I was like why would you delete that [TS]

01:20:39   isn't this what Wikipedia is about a [TS]

01:20:40   bunch of people you know getting [TS]

01:20:42   together to pool their knowledge into a [TS]

01:20:45   common public place where if someone [TS]

01:20:46   want to know what the heck deal was they [TS]

01:20:47   could go and that's why I love the [TS]

01:20:49   Wikipedia page or something because I [TS]

01:20:50   don't want to know like you know some [TS]

01:20:52   some generic term like the the octagonal [TS]

01:20:54   restrictor gate around the joysticks [TS]

01:20:56   there's a Wikipedia page somewhere that [TS]

01:20:58   explains octagonal restrictor gates in [TS]

01:21:01   their history and a lot of time I want [TS]

01:21:03   to link something to someone that said I [TS]

01:21:04   don't want a page of someone talking [TS]

01:21:05   about this I want to pay just explains [TS]

01:21:07   from you know what this thing is before [TS]

01:21:09   you can even discuss it so here's a big [TS]

01:21:10   article about something but what is this [TS]

01:21:12   thing well read this Wikipedia page and [TS]

01:21:13   tell you what it is you know I I was [TS]

01:21:16   like well why would you delete this page [TS]

01:21:17   you know it it's not is it is it bad is [TS]

01:21:22   it it's not you know one of things like [TS]

01:21:23   people think it's advocacy so it's not [TS]

01:21:25   advocacy like it's F D F F is a term [TS]

01:21:28   used by people in adversity but the art [TS]

01:21:30   the Wikipedia article itself is not [TS]

01:21:31   trying to convince you that the finder [TS]

01:21:33   needs to be fixed is simply explaining [TS]

01:21:34   the origins of this term and I did not [TS]

01:21:37   take this this deletion very well if you [TS]

01:21:40   look at these what I actually linked is [TS]

01:21:41   the the talk thread where you can [TS]

01:21:43   discuss why you think this thing should [TS]

01:21:44   be deleted not deleted and what you will [TS]

01:21:47   see in this thread is me in 2006 as a [TS]

01:21:49   probably a prototypical example of [TS]

01:21:52   someone who does not understand what [TS]

01:21:54   Wikipedia is proving that he does not [TS]

01:21:56   understand what Wikipedia is oh you know [TS]

01:21:58   just search for my last name and that [TS]

01:22:00   thread and look at all my comments [TS]

01:22:01   anyone who actually who is above a level [TS]

01:22:04   6 on the Wikipedia scan who like has [TS]

01:22:06   experience contributing to Wikipedia and [TS]

01:22:08   it would not be surprising something's [TS]

01:22:09   marked for deletion and understands that [TS]

01:22:10   whole process will read all my comments [TS]

01:22:12   say this person does not understand what [TS]

01:22:13   Wikipedia is and that is 100% [TS]

01:22:15   true I did not understand what Wikipedia [TS]

01:22:17   was and that explains my frustration [TS]

01:22:19   anger I'm like what the heck is going on [TS]

01:22:20   here you know you're saying to delete [TS]

01:22:23   this it's not advocacy at all the terms [TS]

01:22:26   not notable it you know these sources [TS]

01:22:30   don't count as valid sources and like [TS]

01:22:31   we're just sticks [TS]

01:22:32   I was hunting totally familiar with that [TS]

01:22:34   world and where the term came from and I [TS]

01:22:36   was thought you know we are those of us [TS]

01:22:39   who know where this term came from or [TS]

01:22:40   explaining it to other people and why [TS]

01:22:42   would you why would you want that off [TS]

01:22:43   the internet uh and so let me do a [TS]

01:22:50   sidebar here and say what wikipedia [TS]

01:22:52   actually is versus what I thought it was [TS]

01:22:54   what I thought it was is that thing [TS]

01:22:55   where we all get together and we all try [TS]

01:22:57   to collaborate and pull our information [TS]

01:22:58   and try to make a document that that we [TS]

01:23:00   share all our information if one or two [TS]

01:23:02   or three of us might have little pieces [TS]

01:23:03   of it together we have all the [TS]

01:23:04   information and then if someone want to [TS]

01:23:06   know what the heck FD FF was they would [TS]

01:23:08   go and find this page and it would [TS]

01:23:09   explain to them uh and again I was clear [TS]

01:23:12   that it's not a place where you would [TS]

01:23:14   try to convince people that the finder [TS]

01:23:16   is bad we're just explaining the term [TS]

01:23:17   like I wasn't that far off what a [TS]

01:23:19   computer was but but I was wrong about [TS]

01:23:20   Wikipedia is so if I had been a good [TS]

01:23:24   little person and wanted to know what [TS]

01:23:26   Kapiti it was you should go Wikipedia [TS]

01:23:28   because they explain very clearly what [TS]

01:23:30   Wikipedia is about here's what I didn't [TS]

01:23:35   know so this is quoting from the various [TS]

01:23:38   Wikipedia pages that I've linked in the [TS]

01:23:41   show notes ok there's all prefix with [TS]

01:23:43   Wikipedia : something which are like [TS]

01:23:44   meta pages about Wikipedia itself all [TS]

01:23:49   right the threshold for inclusion in [TS]

01:23:50   Wikipedia is verifiability not truth let [TS]

01:23:55   that sink in for a while all right [TS]

01:24:01   and that goes on it goes on to say while [TS]

01:24:04   verifiability is needed for inclusion [TS]

01:24:05   does not guarantee inclusion wikipedia [TS]

01:24:07   has other policies and guidelines that [TS]

01:24:08   affect that but right off the bat this [TS]

01:24:11   is completely counter to what I thought [TS]

01:24:13   what Kapiti was about I thought it was [TS]

01:24:14   about everyone working together to make [TS]

01:24:16   to find the truth basically - - you know [TS]

01:24:20   we're going to figure out what the truth [TS]

01:24:21   of this thing is we're gonna you know [TS]

01:24:23   find all this information we're going to [TS]

01:24:24   get the truest possible page the most [TS]

01:24:26   accurate you said accuracy before but [TS]

01:24:28   truth is another thing [TS]

01:24:28   the most accurate possible page that [TS]

01:24:31   just some guy wrote it maybe you get two [TS]

01:24:33   or three things wrong because we've seen [TS]

01:24:34   with the Isaacson book and stuff like [TS]

01:24:35   that it's like what if we all work [TS]

01:24:36   together if we were all working [TS]

01:24:37   collaboratively on that jobs bio surely [TS]

01:24:40   someone would have seen all you know [TS]

01:24:41   you're wrong about this or those things [TS]

01:24:42   didn't have rounded rectangles or you [TS]

01:24:43   you got the wrong timeline here he [TS]

01:24:45   wasn't called iceo at this point or you [TS]

01:24:46   know together we can make it more [TS]

01:24:48   accurate right but but here's what could [TS]

01:24:50   be itself saying what some when [TS]

01:24:53   something is included in PD what [TS]

01:24:54   determines that verifiability determines [TS]

01:24:56   that not truth right something can be as [TS]

01:25:00   true as you want it to be if it is not [TS]

01:25:01   verifiable it doesn't go in all right [TS]

01:25:04   the other one is a no original research [TS]

01:25:07   Wikipedia does not publish original [TS]

01:25:09   thought all material and Wikipedia must [TS]

01:25:11   be attributable to a reliable published [TS]

01:25:13   source articles may not contain any new [TS]

01:25:16   analysis or synthesis of published [TS]

01:25:17   material that served to advance position [TS]

01:25:19   not clearly advanced by the sources so [TS]

01:25:21   no original research you can clearly see [TS]

01:25:24   from my description of what was going on [TS]

01:25:25   the FT F F page that was like that was [TS]

01:25:27   like original research we were you know [TS]

01:25:29   looking up finding finding out what this [TS]

01:25:30   stuff was or sometimes we just knew [TS]

01:25:32   because we were there right and we'd say [TS]

01:25:33   well you know I know this so I have this [TS]

01:25:35   fact we were pooling our knowledge our [TS]

01:25:37   first-hand knowledge in most cases [TS]

01:25:39   saying here are the people who [TS]

01:25:40   participate in is explaining what the [TS]

01:25:42   origin is this term work you know we had [TS]

01:25:44   citations to articles and post off that [TS]

01:25:46   like that but as the thing says [TS]

01:25:49   Wikipedia must be attributable to [TS]

01:25:51   reliable published source there's a [TS]

01:25:54   whole thing on what makes what what make [TS]

01:25:56   something a reliable source but as the [TS]

01:25:59   exact term that they use here what [TS]

01:26:01   counts as a reliable source and their [TS]

01:26:05   definition of what counts as a reliable [TS]

01:26:06   source also flew in the face of what I [TS]

01:26:08   would think but a bit mean you know that [TS]

01:26:09   says details that verifiability not [TS]

01:26:11   truth completely blows away what I [TS]

01:26:13   thought what capito was and no original [TS]

01:26:15   research I did not understand that at [TS]

01:26:17   all and so that they defined what they [TS]

01:26:19   mean by original research so they define [TS]

01:26:21   primary sources primary sources are very [TS]

01:26:24   close to an event often accounts written [TS]

01:26:25   by people who are directly involved so [TS]

01:26:27   that's we were all primary sources if [TS]

01:26:29   you're in that thread in the forum where [TS]

01:26:30   that where people are thrown around that [TS]

01:26:31   term when you want to say well you know [TS]

01:26:33   here's another way that people use this [TS]

01:26:34   term you are a primary source or you you [TS]

01:26:37   came up with the term the first place [TS]

01:26:38   thing the guy who was the first person [TS]

01:26:39   to ever write it [TS]

01:26:41   I think was the person who made it up I [TS]

01:26:42   was writing there he's a primary source [TS]

01:26:46   and then there are secondary sources so [TS]

01:26:48   secondary sources are secondhand [TS]

01:26:50   accounts or something so it's a primary [TS]

01:26:51   source and then someone writes an [TS]

01:26:53   article about that thing so the stuff [TS]

01:26:54   goes on in the forum and then someone [TS]

01:26:55   writes an article unlike wired that says [TS]

01:26:58   here's something that's happened in [TS]

01:26:59   lion-like the 4chan forums or something [TS]

01:27:01   like that that's a secondary source and [TS]

01:27:03   then finally there are tertiary sources [TS]

01:27:05   we don't think of past tertiary we're [TS]

01:27:06   lucky tertiary sources are publications [TS]

01:27:08   such as encyclopedias or compendium at [TS]

01:27:10   mainly summarize secondary sources [TS]

01:27:13   Wikipedia is a tertiary source that's [TS]

01:27:17   another thing that I totally didn't [TS]

01:27:18   understand Wikipedia is not a place [TS]

01:27:20   where you write down stuff that you know [TS]

01:27:21   because then you're a primary source [TS]

01:27:23   Wikipedia is not a secondary source [TS]

01:27:25   where you write about things that [TS]

01:27:27   happened elsewhere Wikipedia is a [TS]

01:27:29   tertiary source but kapeniak writes [TS]

01:27:31   about that writes about other people [TS]

01:27:33   writing about things so is any of this [TS]

01:27:37   new to you [TS]

01:27:37   no not nudie so you knew all this [TS]

01:27:40   already I knew some all right so but [TS]

01:27:43   it's it you know I understand where [TS]

01:27:45   you're going with this [TS]

01:27:46   and I want to share something with you [TS]

01:27:47   my mom is a college professor and [TS]

01:27:52   nothing and my aunt is uh like the [TS]

01:27:57   director of a library at a college they [TS]

01:28:03   their opinion of Wikipedia you're giving [TS]

01:28:09   a glowing review and almost a [TS]

01:28:11   wholehearted endorsement of Wikipedia [TS]

01:28:14   compared to the way that they feel about [TS]

01:28:15   the they think that it is I mean it [TS]

01:28:21   flies in the face of everything that [TS]

01:28:23   they believe a source should be and they [TS]

01:28:28   my mom will tell her students when [TS]

01:28:30   they're writing paper you may not use [TS]

01:28:32   Wikipedia as a source it is not a source [TS]

01:28:35   it is not valid don't don't use it for [TS]

01:28:37   anything don't rely so it's it's kind of [TS]

01:28:40   a joke in our family any any time how [TS]

01:28:42   say something about you know Oh where'd [TS]

01:28:45   you hear that I'll never never mind [TS]

01:28:47   because we can't even bring it up we [TS]

01:28:49   can't even bring it up [TS]

01:28:50   it's considered and I don't know if I'm [TS]

01:28:53   speaking for all educators everywhere [TS]

01:28:55   but III think generally speaking it is [TS]

01:29:00   it is detested by everybody for whom a [TS]

01:29:07   encyclopedia or true published [TS]

01:29:11   researched work would be considered a [TS]

01:29:14   valid source Wikipedia just flies in the [TS]

01:29:16   face of it we've talked about this kind [TS]

01:29:19   of thing a lot occasionally points out [TS]

01:29:20   that regardless of any particulars of [TS]

01:29:23   what compete it shouldn't be used as a [TS]

01:29:24   source because it's an encyclopedia it's [TS]

01:29:26   a tertiary source right but even so and [TS]

01:29:29   generally if you're writing if you're [TS]

01:29:31   writing a scholarly work you're not [TS]

01:29:32   going to cite a tertiary source because [TS]

01:29:34   you're supposed to be a tertiary source [TS]

01:29:35   when you're writing the scholarly work [TS]

01:29:37   you're supposed to be reading the [TS]

01:29:39   articles and synthesizing them and then [TS]

01:29:41   analyzing them or whatever you're not [TS]

01:29:43   supposed to let someone else that [TS]

01:29:44   pretend I could do all the work for you [TS]

01:29:45   and then you just summarize what they [TS]

01:29:46   said because they've just done all the [TS]

01:29:47   work for you but even so you could you [TS]

01:29:49   could use it as a source for information [TS]

01:29:54   that was I don't want to say commonly [TS]

01:29:57   known but you know you know I'm saying [TS]

01:30:00   whereas if you wanted to not coming up [TS]

01:30:01   with a unique quote or proof of the [TS]

01:30:03   state but just say by the way these [TS]

01:30:05   facts that I'm listening as [TS]

01:30:07   inconsequential facts do have a source [TS]

01:30:10   and yahwah's encyclopedia I'm just [TS]

01:30:11   saying there's things on Wikipedia that [TS]

01:30:13   that you might want a quote or you might [TS]

01:30:15   want to source and in education they [TS]

01:30:17   don't even don't even want to see that [TS]

01:30:18   that doesn't even count it almost [TS]

01:30:20   disputed it it creates a disease among [TS]

01:30:24   the edge well you you read in [TS]

01:30:26   Encyclopedia like nor would be read [TS]

01:30:28   encyclopedia to learn but if you are [TS]

01:30:30   attempting to to you know forge some new [TS]

01:30:34   knowledge to have some new insight write [TS]

01:30:36   your own scholarly on paper you you [TS]

01:30:38   can't you know your job is to to do what [TS]

01:30:41   the Encyclopedia did or whatever but [TS]

01:30:43   it's it's interesting that you brought [TS]

01:30:45   that up because so this business about [TS]

01:30:49   being a tertiary source I'll get back to [TS]

01:30:51   your parents cuz I think that's that's a [TS]

01:30:53   very key point here but the fact that I [TS]

01:30:56   didn't understand these things about [TS]

01:30:57   Wikipedia is why I was so completely [TS]

01:31:01   incredulous about what was going on [TS]

01:31:03   in that thread that there got a mark for [TS]

01:31:05   deletions didn't didn't meet all his [TS]

01:31:07   criteria and I didn't the the reason [TS]

01:31:09   that I was so angry about is because I [TS]

01:31:11   didn't understand what the point of [TS]

01:31:12   Wikipedia was and I'm sure this happens [TS]

01:31:14   all the time of Wikipedia I'm sure if [TS]

01:31:15   there any Wikipedia so in chat room they [TS]

01:31:16   can tell you this is pretty much what [TS]

01:31:18   happens someone thinks they know what [TS]

01:31:19   Kapiti is they come in they try to do [TS]

01:31:20   something and you tell them no you can't [TS]

01:31:22   possess not what Wikipedia is and [TS]

01:31:24   they'll just argue with me argue with [TS]

01:31:25   you until they're blue in the face not [TS]

01:31:27   understanding like that's all well and [TS]

01:31:28   good but that's not what Wikipedia is [TS]

01:31:30   you have a fundamental misunderstanding [TS]

01:31:33   of but I can't argue your particular [TS]

01:31:35   point because your premises are all [TS]

01:31:36   wrong my premises were all wrong about [TS]

01:31:38   what Wikipedia is so there are still [TS]

01:31:44   some sicknesses involved with what [TS]

01:31:46   Wikipedia is and I think these [TS]

01:31:47   sicknesses and this is something [TS]

01:31:48   wikipedia fights against all the time [TS]

01:31:51   because you know there's some weaknesses [TS]

01:31:53   in the format the first one is that in [TS]

01:31:56   any kind of issue that's controversial [TS]

01:31:59   they have all sorts of rules about [TS]

01:32:00   things that are controversial because [TS]

01:32:01   obviously there's going to be [TS]

01:32:02   controversial topics in there any page [TS]

01:32:03   on like religion or abortion or any kind [TS]

01:32:05   of politics thing there there are people [TS]

01:32:07   who would like to contribute who or who [TS]

01:32:09   have a strong opinion one way or the [TS]

01:32:11   other and they have all sorts of [TS]

01:32:12   policies trying to control that what can [TS]

01:32:15   happen on a page like FD FF is if there [TS]

01:32:19   are some people who feel strongly about [TS]

01:32:22   that the finder is really awesome that [TS]

01:32:23   you shouldn't be saying bad things about [TS]

01:32:24   it they can initiate the process of [TS]

01:32:27   killing this page we're not following [TS]

01:32:28   the rules uh whereas if it was less [TS]

01:32:30   controversial topic it could have skated [TS]

01:32:32   by for a while this is not arguing or [TS]

01:32:33   like this is why the pages stay or [TS]

01:32:35   anything it's just a fact of life like [TS]

01:32:36   the more controversial topic is the more [TS]

01:32:38   the more it has to make sure it conforms [TS]

01:32:40   to what Wikipedia actually is because [TS]

01:32:42   people will come in there with an ax to [TS]

01:32:44   grind and say I've got you because you [TS]

01:32:46   were actually you were not using [TS]

01:32:47   Wikipedia in the right way and we're [TS]

01:32:49   going to get turned that I'm pretty sure [TS]

01:32:50   that's what happened with the FD FF it [TS]

01:32:52   doesn't mean that that person was [TS]

01:32:53   entirely right that this article does [TS]

01:32:55   not conform to what Wikipedia is it just [TS]

01:32:57   means that that's why this thing that's [TS]

01:32:59   why this comes up and doesn't sit in a [TS]

01:33:00   quiet corner where nobody bothers about [TS]

01:33:01   alright and then in the thread as I'm [TS]

01:33:04   arguing passionately for a Wikipedia [TS]

01:33:07   that doesn't exist about how this [TS]

01:33:09   article should be included in Wikipedia [TS]

01:33:11   that doesn't actually exist there are [TS]

01:33:14   some practices that [TS]

01:33:16   I mean first of all if you don't [TS]

01:33:16   understand what it is you'll be [TS]

01:33:18   incredulous two people are making these [TS]

01:33:19   arguments and rupees they seem crazy if [TS]

01:33:20   someone was to say to me in that threat [TS]

01:33:22   maybe they did and remember is that [TS]

01:33:24   that's great and all but we don't care [TS]

01:33:26   about truth we just care about [TS]

01:33:26   verifiability I would have just gone [TS]

01:33:28   crazy like what you don't care about [TS]

01:33:29   what the truth is isn't that the whole [TS]

01:33:31   point of what they say actually no no [TS]

01:33:33   actually that's not the point I just [TS]

01:33:34   wouldn't be able to understand it at all [TS]

01:33:35   so one of the things they did in this [TS]

01:33:37   thread that drove me nuts is one of the [TS]

01:33:39   people like someone who I think a [TS]

01:33:41   Wikipedian who has no no stake [TS]

01:33:42   whatsoever in this issue probably didn't [TS]

01:33:43   even know what that FD FF was or didn't [TS]

01:33:45   even know what the finder was right [TS]

01:33:46   came into the thread and was trying to [TS]

01:33:49   tell me and failing to communicate to me [TS]

01:33:52   that I don't know what Wikipedia is went [TS]

01:33:54   through and annotated all the comments [TS]

01:33:56   of the people in the talk thread with [TS]

01:33:58   how many contributions they made the [TS]

01:33:59   Wikipedia have you ever seen that before [TS]

01:34:02   never and that that also pushes all my [TS]

01:34:06   crazy buttons because I would be like [TS]

01:34:07   what does it matter and tortured Eugen [TS]

01:34:10   tortured person art you know put judge [TS]

01:34:13   the people's statements on their merits [TS]

01:34:15   it's not it's you know it's like let me [TS]

01:34:16   just apply an appeal to authority [TS]

01:34:18   fallacy to every single cycle Waldow [TS]

01:34:20   well this person said this but then [TS]

01:34:21   again he's only had two edits ever in [TS]

01:34:22   wikipedia and they're all up they want [TS]

01:34:24   to single out single single purpose [TS]

01:34:26   accounts and canvasing which is like and [TS]

01:34:29   I did this as well went to the forum [TS]

01:34:30   said hey someone deleted the FD FF page [TS]

01:34:32   if you think it shouldn't be delia to [TS]

01:34:33   come help me arguing this threat [TS]

01:34:34   that's called canvassing you can't do [TS]

01:34:35   that so any recount that was just [TS]

01:34:37   created like a single purpose account [TS]

01:34:39   just created for the purpose of [TS]

01:34:40   contributing this talk page well that [TS]

01:34:42   guy doesn't know anything about [TS]

01:34:43   Wikipedia so it's like putting a little [TS]

01:34:46   score next each person to say well [TS]

01:34:48   disregard this person's comments who's a [TS]

01:34:49   single person purpose can disregard this [TS]

01:34:51   person's comments because the only [TS]

01:34:52   reason they're here is because someone [TS]

01:34:53   recruited them to come here and you know [TS]

01:34:55   it that totally rubs me the wrong way ah [TS]

01:34:59   I can't even say that even understand [TS]

01:35:01   the point of that what I think what [TS]

01:35:03   they're trying to get at is to be able [TS]

01:35:04   to identify single single purpose counts [TS]

01:35:06   and canvas users because they somehow [TS]

01:35:08   are supposed to count less maybe it's [TS]

01:35:10   because of rules to realize well those [TS]

01:35:12   people are less likely to understand [TS]

01:35:13   what Wikipedia is but I think that those [TS]

01:35:15   facts should be evident from their [TS]

01:35:17   comments if they don't understand what [TS]

01:35:18   Wikipedia is I think they'll demonstrate [TS]

01:35:20   that with their comments you know if [TS]

01:35:22   this is a single purpose account that [TS]

01:35:24   was canvassed but they make a salt a [TS]

01:35:26   strong solid point that actually does it [TS]

01:35:28   work [TS]

01:35:29   than the framework Wikipedia is they [TS]

01:35:31   should be valid you shouldn't be tagging [TS]

01:35:32   everybody I couldn't believe it I [TS]

01:35:33   thought it was one malicious user I [TS]

01:35:35   thought it was like no it's it's like [TS]

01:35:36   it's the metd mentality some guy had an [TS]

01:35:40   axe to grind with the finder was gone [TS]

01:35:41   through that I'm like oh this is like [TS]

01:35:42   it's like boldface clearly evil behavior [TS]

01:35:45   that surely everyone will see but now [TS]

01:35:47   it's a Wikipedian who has no stake in [TS]

01:35:49   this issue whatsoever coming in here I'm [TS]

01:35:51   doing something with common practice [TS]

01:35:53   because in their world this is a useful [TS]

01:35:56   useful metric for determining of it [TS]

01:35:58   rather than have to suss out these [TS]

01:36:01   people's individual points let's [TS]

01:36:02   prejudge them based on how much they've [TS]

01:36:03   contributed Wikipedia because as soon as [TS]

01:36:05   we see that they're canvassed or a [TS]

01:36:06   single user account we can just regard [TS]

01:36:07   everything they say and that's you know [TS]

01:36:10   that practice just I think even [TS]

01:36:13   understanding what Wikipedia is that [TS]

01:36:14   practice rubs me the wrong way [TS]

01:36:17   so through this painful experience I [TS]

01:36:19   learned what Wikipedia was eventually [TS]

01:36:22   the FD FF thing just became a subsection [TS]

01:36:24   of the finder page in the criticism [TS]

01:36:26   section and if you go to the tiny little [TS]

01:36:30   section where F DF f reading out [TS]

01:36:32   redirects to the criticism section of [TS]

01:36:33   the finder page what you will see is [TS]

01:36:35   that all the remains of this page that [TS]

01:36:37   was once like maybe a screen full of [TS]

01:36:38   text is a paragraph and that paragraph [TS]

01:36:40   was mostly written by the one guy who [TS]

01:36:42   had an axe to grind about the finder he [TS]

01:36:45   was on me in the forums and you think to [TS]

01:36:47   find her so bad well I think it's great [TS]

01:36:49   and if you think it's so bad where's [TS]

01:36:51   your better finder like that was the [TS]

01:36:54   level of the argument here's a quote [TS]

01:36:55   from the Wikipedia page in the criticism [TS]

01:36:57   section which references me Sarah kusa a [TS]

01:36:59   web developer has been called on to [TS]

01:37:01   submit a prototype of what he thinks to [TS]

01:37:03   be a better finder [TS]

01:37:03   isn't that great phrasing he's been [TS]

01:37:05   called on to submit a prototype he's [TS]

01:37:07   been called out you sir you must have [TS]

01:37:10   you know to supplement his article on [TS]

01:37:12   the topic but he has declined to do so [TS]

01:37:13   saying I'm a programmer not a Mac os10 [TS]

01:37:16   program that's quoting from me from the [TS]

01:37:17   forum you can follow citations and see [TS]

01:37:19   it though that's like 50% of the entry [TS]

01:37:22   there the sentence is about me about [TS]

01:37:24   this dude calling me out which is a [TS]

01:37:25   ridiculous fallacy that I think of you [TS]

01:37:27   discussed elsewhere of like you think [TS]

01:37:28   this movie is bad well where's your [TS]

01:37:29   better movie now that's not work you [TS]

01:37:32   don't have to have a better movie you [TS]

01:37:33   don't have to write a better finder you [TS]

01:37:35   think you're so great you think the [TS]

01:37:36   finder so bad where is your better [TS]

01:37:37   finder that that stands the article [TS]

01:37:40   because yeah and this thing about FFF [TS]

01:37:42   that's the [TS]

01:37:43   that's the that stays everything else [TS]

01:37:45   goes but the few you know can I say [TS]

01:37:49   bitchy I don't know you can sentences [TS]

01:37:51   from this guy with an axe to grind that [TS]

01:37:53   stays because you have citations that's [TS]

01:37:56   low quality content that's not relevant [TS]

01:37:58   but it's verifiable and how is it [TS]

01:38:00   verifiable you can trace it back to that [TS]

01:38:01   forum thing and that if you look at the [TS]

01:38:04   thread you see is all the stuff about me [TS]

01:38:05   and not liking the fact that that forums [TS]

01:38:07   and web things aren't considerable [TS]

01:38:09   barold valid sources and all that [TS]

01:38:10   business I think even understanding what [TS]

01:38:13   Wikipedia actually is they're very slow [TS]

01:38:15   to acknowledge websites as valid sources [TS]

01:38:19   like they're you know much more likely [TS]

01:38:21   to take like some magazine that has [TS]

01:38:23   circulation it's 1/100 of the number of [TS]

01:38:26   people who read a forum page and say [TS]

01:38:27   well that magazine is on paper therefore [TS]

01:38:29   it's it's you know more important so [TS]

01:38:32   this finally gets back to you the [TS]

01:38:35   objection of your parents and academics [TS]

01:38:37   and people who are older and in [TS]

01:38:39   education against Wikipedia I think the [TS]

01:38:42   main one one of the big sicknesses of [TS]

01:38:45   Wikipedia is that the people who set up [TS]

01:38:47   the rules of what Wikipedia is which [TS]

01:38:49   again outside is totally their right I [TS]

01:38:50   can set up any system they want this is [TS]

01:38:51   the only chosen set up when they were [TS]

01:38:53   deciding what they want to make [TS]

01:38:53   Wikipedia they wanted desperately for [TS]

01:38:56   the to have what would you say the word [TS]

01:39:02   is leaving my mind not not the [TS]

01:39:06   confirmation they wanted the blessing of [TS]

01:39:09   people like like your mother and those [TS]

01:39:12   people in education sanction not [TS]

01:39:15   sanctioned they they wanted those people [TS]

01:39:16   to look on them and say yes they wanted [TS]

01:39:20   the affections of those people they [TS]

01:39:22   wanted to be in that world that the [TS]

01:39:24   opinion of those people matter to them a [TS]

01:39:26   lot approval finally chase my approval I [TS]

01:39:30   thank you they desperately wanted the [TS]

01:39:32   approval of those people those people [TS]

01:39:34   like your mother and academics and the [TS]

01:39:36   people who are in that world of sources [TS]

01:39:38   right and so they structured they tried [TS]

01:39:40   to structure themselves so that they [TS]

01:39:42   they would have unassailable Authority [TS]

01:39:44   we have the strict set of rules that are [TS]

01:39:47   kind of weird rules that is not what you [TS]

01:39:49   think what Kapiti is when we just tell [TS]

01:39:50   you what wikipedia is no we are actually [TS]

01:39:52   a scholarly thing with the set of rules [TS]

01:39:53   about neutral point of view no original [TS]

01:39:56   research and just all [TS]

01:39:57   things that are just because that's what [TS]

01:39:59   if you were to ask your mother the [TS]

01:40:00   things like what makes a good [TS]

01:40:01   publication it's like all these things [TS]

01:40:03   you have to have neutral point of view [TS]

01:40:04   you shouldn't it's not advocacy right [TS]

01:40:05   you're not supposed to original research [TS]

01:40:07   of your encyclopedia so it's be a [TS]

01:40:08   tertiary source these are just pulled [TS]

01:40:09   straight out of the world of classic [TS]

01:40:12   paper encyclopedias and the desire of [TS]

01:40:15   Wikipedia to have the approval of those [TS]

01:40:17   people made them make something that I [TS]

01:40:19   think is worse than what computer could [TS]

01:40:22   have been if it was the thing that I [TS]

01:40:23   thought it was it sounds shocking that [TS]

01:40:26   I'm going to say that right so the two [TS]

01:40:29   points I want to make about this [TS]

01:40:30   experiences one I I don't begrudge [TS]

01:40:34   Wikipedia it's it's to be what it is [TS]

01:40:37   right you know people will say oh you [TS]

01:40:39   know I'm so mad because my article got [TS]

01:40:41   deleted or you know because I didn't get [TS]

01:40:43   my way and Wikipedia [TS]

01:40:44   I was wrong there I didn't understand [TS]

01:40:47   what Wikipedia was my fault right there [TS]

01:40:49   they can set the rules however they want [TS]

01:40:51   right and obviously the rules that I [TS]

01:40:53   think are so horrible obviously haven't [TS]

01:40:55   been so bad that it stopped Wikipedia [TS]

01:40:57   from becoming this big this great big [TS]

01:40:58   thing right the sec my second point is [TS]

01:41:01   that I think they took the wrong rules [TS]

01:41:02   that a Wikipedia that actually worked [TS]

01:41:04   the way I thought it would would be much [TS]

01:41:05   better because what I'm what I am want [TS]

01:41:07   want out of collaborative editing is I [TS]

01:41:09   want the truth and it's like well how do [TS]

01:41:11   you get to the truth about verifiability [TS]

01:41:13   it gets all wrapped up or whatever but [TS]

01:41:14   that that's what's different about [TS]

01:41:16   online they wanted the approval so badly [TS]

01:41:19   of the academics in that world and they [TS]

01:41:22   didn't get it as you said your parents [TS]

01:41:23   laugh at them it's like oh honey we can [TS]

01:41:24   edit Wikipedia that's not you know it's [TS]

01:41:26   they didn't they went for the approval [TS]

01:41:28   of the old guard didn't even get it but [TS]

01:41:30   still keep those rules and it makes [TS]

01:41:33   their publication it and just as bad as [TS]

01:41:35   those other ones you know it's like [TS]

01:41:37   stifle Peter britannica but without the [TS]

01:41:39   approval of of the academic bigwigs [TS]

01:41:41   right you know it's what they should [TS]

01:41:45   have done is say we don't need their [TS]

01:41:46   approval we're a new thing we're [TS]

01:41:47   collaborative editing by the masses and [TS]

01:41:50   we're going to try to converge on the [TS]

01:41:52   truth and we're going to use all sorts [TS]

01:41:53   of ways to try to do that but our ways [TS]

01:41:55   aren't going to be the same as those [TS]

01:41:56   other ways we're going to allow for [TS]

01:41:58   example you know no original research if [TS]

01:42:01   some guy landed on the moon and he said [TS]

01:42:03   actually when I looked at this moon rock [TS]

01:42:05   that was a green thing under the bottom [TS]

01:42:07   and someone said it was blue but I was [TS]

01:42:09   it was green nope sorry you can't put [TS]

01:42:11   that in the Wikipedia entry because [TS]

01:42:12   that's original research you can't say [TS]

01:42:13   what you saw in the moon that's not [TS]

01:42:14   verifiable that's you know that's just [TS]

01:42:18   stupid like people just say well that's [TS]

01:42:21   that's not what Kapiti is I know I'm [TS]

01:42:22   saying what could I'm saying Wikipedia [TS]

01:42:24   should be something different and the [TS]

01:42:27   bad thing about what Wikipedia has [TS]

01:42:29   turned out to be is that now it's got [TS]

01:42:30   critical mass and now you can't be like [TS]

01:42:32   okay so fine like the finder guy was [TS]

01:42:33   like why don't you make that new thing [TS]

01:42:35   call it something different than [TS]

01:42:36   Wikipedia and make your own rules for [TS]

01:42:37   and see how well that does well there's [TS]

01:42:39   certain point you know you get critical [TS]

01:42:41   mass and it's very difficult to overcome [TS]

01:42:42   that it's kind of like Microsoft Windows [TS]

01:42:44   in the 90s you make a better operating [TS]

01:42:45   system Mac OS but at a certain point [TS]

01:42:48   doesn't matter if your thing is better [TS]

01:42:49   the damage has been done the big thing [TS]

01:42:52   is is too big right I would like a world [TS]

01:42:55   in which we were all working together to [TS]

01:42:59   try to arrive at truth using every tool [TS]

01:43:00   necessary not worrying about what the [TS]

01:43:02   rules of the past institutions that did [TS]

01:43:04   this were understanding this is a new [TS]

01:43:05   medium with new techniques and I think [TS]

01:43:07   this this desire to seek the approval of [TS]

01:43:11   this old system with these the set of [TS]

01:43:12   rules that are very much like the old [TS]

01:43:14   system causes Wikipedia to have all [TS]

01:43:18   these weird sequences to have to make [TS]

01:43:20   this culture of people who want to [TS]

01:43:21   delete things because they don't fit [TS]

01:43:23   within these rules like nobody your [TS]

01:43:26   mother would not have cared that that FD [TS]

01:43:28   FF page didn't conform to the rules [TS]

01:43:30   Wikipedia sat down now similarly she [TS]

01:43:32   doesn't care that these other pages do [TS]

01:43:34   conform to it she doesn't consider them [TS]

01:43:35   any more authoritative you know what I [TS]

01:43:36   mean like they it's just it's just been [TS]

01:43:39   a horrible terrible mistake that they've [TS]

01:43:42   made very early on and now there's no [TS]

01:43:44   going back and so the final facet of [TS]

01:43:47   this is the people brought up in the [TS]

01:43:48   chat room is inclusion it's versus Dilys [TS]

01:43:49   inist even within the framework of what [TS]

01:43:52   wikipedia actually is there is this [TS]

01:43:54   debate between inclusion and deletion [TS]

01:43:56   as' you can imagine where I fall on that [TS]

01:43:58   but where where do you fall in that that [TS]

01:44:00   debate I mean like occlusions first [TS]

01:44:01   installation I then this is probably [TS]

01:44:04   going to sound a little bit [TS]

01:44:06   old-fashioned but I just hate to delete [TS]

01:44:09   the deletion policy just feels wrong to [TS]

01:44:12   me it just feels wrong well there's no [TS]

01:44:14   no policy this is debate within the [TS]

01:44:16   Wikipedia community of inclusion as [TS]

01:44:18   versus inflation it's but I'll summarize [TS]

01:44:19   briefly the inclusion estar the ones who [TS]

01:44:21   say if you make a vow [TS]

01:44:23   I would compete a rule conforming page [TS]

01:44:25   on anything at all it should stay there [TS]

01:44:28   and deletion is say even if you have a [TS]

01:44:31   perfectly valid [TS]

01:44:33   well cited follows all the rules of [TS]

01:44:36   Wikipedia page about a particular about [TS]

01:44:39   the the plastic nub on a particular end [TS]

01:44:41   of shoelaces and the story behind the [TS]

01:44:44   manufacturer of that particular nub and [TS]

01:44:46   some pictures of it and some people who [TS]

01:44:47   had experiences manufacturing it and [TS]

01:44:49   people you know it's like but it was all [TS]

01:44:51   well sited fit within the rules they're [TS]

01:44:53   going to say who cares it's not [TS]

01:44:55   important enough to get its own [TS]

01:44:56   Wikipedia page and the debate is [TS]

01:44:57   basically well you have to do that in a [TS]

01:44:59   real encyclopedia because you can't make [TS]

01:45:00   the book the size of a skyscraper right [TS]

01:45:02   but but there's no reason to do you're [TS]

01:45:04   saying there's no reason to do that if [TS]

01:45:06   it's yeah only people say it's not paper [TS]

01:45:09   it's still there's no not running out of [TS]

01:45:11   web pages every time we make a web page [TS]

01:45:12   doesn't make you know a new one oh we [TS]

01:45:16   have to pull another web page we're [TS]

01:45:17   running out of web pages and so it the [TS]

01:45:19   inclusion of want have the most extreme [TS]

01:45:21   inclusion say one end of the spectrum is [TS]

01:45:23   everything is valid and the deletion [TS]

01:45:25   estar more like if we print this out it [TS]

01:45:27   should be no thicker than a volume of [TS]

01:45:29   Encyclopedia Brittanica so we really [TS]

01:45:30   have to say is this really important [TS]

01:45:32   enough to get a page right so for [TS]

01:45:34   example there is no Dan Ben Jeanette Dan [TS]

01:45:36   Benjamin entry and Encyclopedia [TS]

01:45:38   Britannica right unfortunate there is in [TS]

01:45:40   Wikipedia right so right away you can [TS]

01:45:43   see that what wikipedia is already know [TS]

01:45:45   it's already way better than any real [TS]

01:45:47   encyclopedia well they're saying like [TS]

01:45:48   look we wouldn't have room with this in [TS]

01:45:50   a paper thing right because we got to [TS]

01:45:52   put in like World War two right and like [TS]

01:45:53   you know dinosaurs and other other [TS]

01:45:56   things that are more significant but [TS]

01:45:58   Wikipedia say okay we can be we can [TS]

01:45:59   include like this is a continuum I was [TS]

01:46:01   trying to give the end of the spectrum [TS]

01:46:02   Wikipedia is not at the end of the [TS]

01:46:05   continuum with a deletion of so it's [TS]

01:46:07   like Encyclopedia Britannica so they're [TS]

01:46:08   swinging a little bit towards there but [TS]

01:46:09   there's still Wikipedia is constant [TS]

01:46:11   battle about is this person important [TS]

01:46:13   enough to have a page the notability [TS]

01:46:15   thing not notable you've seen the [TS]

01:46:16   debates to come up about this where some [TS]

01:46:18   person who's very important in some [TS]

01:46:20   community will get a Wikipedia page and [TS]

01:46:22   somebody I assume somebody but the [TS]

01:46:23   stupid axe to grind against this [TS]

01:46:25   particular person my page my page you [TS]

01:46:28   mentioned mind it actually has that on [TS]

01:46:32   mine from October of 2010 says the topic [TS]

01:46:35   of this article [TS]

01:46:37   may not mean Wikipedia general [TS]

01:46:38   notability guideline please help to [TS]

01:46:40   establish notability by adding reliable [TS]

01:46:43   secondary sources about the topic if it [TS]

01:46:44   cannot be established the article is [TS]

01:46:46   likely to be merged redirected or [TS]

01:46:47   deleted now the funny thing is since [TS]

01:46:49   that was added which you can should I be [TS]

01:46:52   looking at the view history or the talk [TS]

01:46:54   section view history will show the [TS]

01:46:56   history of the page and talk is the meta [TS]

01:46:58   page but talk has its own history it's [TS]

01:46:59   very very confusing now they have there [TS]

01:47:02   has been so much discussion on this this [TS]

01:47:05   silly little page about me feels like [TS]

01:47:08   it's like the screen full yeah it's like [TS]

01:47:10   tuned almost to screen fools and [TS]

01:47:12   basically what the people have done and [TS]

01:47:15   I appreciate whoever it is that's that's [TS]

01:47:17   doing this has gone in and added [TS]

01:47:20   reliable secondary sources they have a [TS]

01:47:22   source to CNN they have an article on [TS]

01:47:25   the list apart they have I think [TS]

01:47:28   something from gadgets and games they [TS]

01:47:29   have a Fox News linked up fortune [TS]

01:47:33   magazine a lot of different secondary [TS]

01:47:36   sources I guess that establish my [TS]

01:47:39   notability and they even have my my [TS]

01:47:41   middle name in here now um so it but yet [TS]

01:47:48   I guess so nobody has taken that notice [TS]

01:47:52   off even though because when it first [TS]

01:47:53   started that it was like a two-sentence [TS]

01:47:54   thing that said you know Dan made some [TS]

01:47:57   webpages and did five by five and then [TS]

01:47:58   then people actually went in and [TS]

01:48:00   responded to that and it's still there I [TS]

01:48:02   really don't understand how this works [TS]

01:48:03   you see that that's the whole thing [TS]

01:48:05   about the inclusions persons deletion is [TS]

01:48:07   the deletion the inclusions would say [TS]

01:48:09   the notability is stupid because if [TS]

01:48:12   enough people want to get together and [TS]

01:48:14   write a page about dan benjamin that's [TS]

01:48:15   proof that alone is proof enough that [TS]

01:48:17   this is this is unit right if just [TS]

01:48:19   you're saying you're saying who does it [TS]

01:48:20   who does it hurt that this page is out [TS]

01:48:22   there if there's five people who think [TS]

01:48:25   it should be there why not leave it why [TS]

01:48:27   take it away what's the concept of do I [TS]

01:48:29   pull it away why do that right yeah the [TS]

01:48:31   the crappy argument that comes up is [TS]

01:48:33   like well these pages aren't free to [TS]

01:48:35   take up some amount of memory on a [TS]

01:48:36   server and stuff I think I will just [TS]

01:48:37   dismiss that out of hand because of the [TS]

01:48:39   scale of things the amount of memory [TS]

01:48:40   that this page takes up is so [TS]

01:48:42   insignificant that it might as well be [TS]

01:48:43   zero if you really want if you say [TS]

01:48:46   what's the most inclusion of stance you [TS]

01:48:48   could take that takes into account you [TS]

01:48:49   could say fun [TS]

01:48:50   then we'll see how many people actually [TS]

01:48:51   visit this page and pages that only get [TS]

01:48:53   one visit per year get deleted off the [TS]

01:48:55   end of the super inclusion aspersion of [TS]

01:48:57   wikipedia but so that's a stupid [TS]

01:48:58   argument but but I truly believe that if [TS]

01:49:00   people want to contribute to this page [TS]

01:49:02   it shows that it's useful because it's [TS]

01:49:04   very least for those five or ten people [TS]

01:49:05   who are writing the stuff in there just [TS]

01:49:07   for their own personal reference like [TS]

01:49:08   you know you want to put something up in [TS]

01:49:09   the web so the next time you google for [TS]

01:49:11   it you'll find it right even if just [TS]

01:49:12   helps us five or ten people so what but [TS]

01:49:14   I bet this page gets way more hits than [TS]

01:49:16   the five ten people who wrote it because [TS]

01:49:17   we want to know who the hell is Dan [TS]

01:49:18   Benjamin it's not easy to find like Dan [TS]

01:49:20   Benjamin's personal site where it [TS]

01:49:22   explains who he is [TS]

01:49:22   because people tend not to do that like [TS]

01:49:24   I don't know this is too much like [TS]

01:49:26   egotistical or it's just hard to find a [TS]

01:49:28   page of like look I know this is the [TS]

01:49:30   website you made I know this is a [TS]

01:49:31   product but who the heck is Dan Benjamin [TS]

01:49:32   well that's what Wikipedia people go to [TS]

01:49:34   a computer in site this page will [TS]

01:49:35   explain who the heck Dan Benjamin is [TS]

01:49:36   right and you're saying what's that [TS]

01:49:40   what's the harm in that why not have it [TS]

01:49:42   there why why isn't there a John [TS]

01:49:43   siracusa page that's a shame idle I [TS]

01:49:45   think there should be one no please no [TS]

01:49:47   I'm gonna but we're gonna ask us for us [TS]

01:49:49   to listen I'm going to call call two [TS]

01:49:51   listeners right now if you know it see [TS]

01:49:53   now you're canvassing a page will [TS]

01:49:54   immediately get deleted no I think that [TS]

01:49:56   I think you are notable why would it be [TS]

01:49:58   immediately deleted Oh before you do [TS]

01:50:01   that let's discuss the notability thing [TS]

01:50:02   so once you once you lied no Genuity [TS]

01:50:04   once you let notability enter into it [TS]

01:50:06   then it becomes entirely like a a game [TS]

01:50:10   that is one before it starts because [TS]

01:50:13   whoever gets to write the definition [TS]

01:50:15   notability determines whatever's in [TS]

01:50:17   there especially with people who have an [TS]

01:50:18   axe to grind I'm surprised you must have [TS]

01:50:20   not have a lot of enemies because this [TS]

01:50:21   page would not have sat here in this in [TS]

01:50:23   this you know notability questionable [TS]

01:50:25   state for such a long time you didn't [TS]

01:50:26   have enemies if you had more enemies [TS]

01:50:28   like I forget who the page was there's [TS]

01:50:30   some open source contributor who was [TS]

01:50:32   probably on some product that had some [TS]

01:50:33   rival project and those people really [TS]

01:50:34   hated them now and they just you know [TS]

01:50:36   marked for deletion jammed it through [TS]

01:50:38   the process same way like Congress jams [TS]

01:50:39   through laws the people who know how the [TS]

01:50:40   system works [TS]

01:50:41   it's got the page deleted and it was a [TS]

01:50:42   big outcry for you on going oh my god [TS]

01:50:44   before we even know it was happening [TS]

01:50:45   cool person X's page was deleted from [TS]

01:50:47   Wikipedia because notability and then [TS]

01:50:49   this whole big campaign to get it [TS]

01:50:50   reinstated and I think it came back but [TS]

01:50:52   the fact that that can happen because [TS]

01:50:53   one person who knows the system can Ram [TS]

01:50:55   it through and get it killed out because [TS]

01:50:56   there are enough actually impartial [TS]

01:50:59   people who really don't have any opinion [TS]

01:51:01   one way or the other on dan benjamin [TS]

01:51:02   wherever this person was [TS]

01:51:04   nevertheless totally agree with that [TS]

01:51:06   person's definition of what should be [TS]

01:51:07   included in Wikipedia and of course [TS]

01:51:09   basically anyone who wants a page [TS]

01:51:11   deleted that you don't think should be [TS]

01:51:12   deleted as a deletion ax stand anybody [TS]

01:51:13   who wants to keep it as an inclusion is [TS]

01:51:14   so even those definitions are relative [TS]

01:51:16   so if you think Dan painted page should [TS]

01:51:18   be deleted you're a deletion ascend [TS]

01:51:19   later if you think a different page [TS]

01:51:21   should be included you're the inclusion [TS]

01:51:22   is in that discussion but there are [TS]

01:51:23   people I think you I think you should [TS]

01:51:25   have a page and I would like for the [TS]

01:51:27   listeners to make and I'll tell what I [TS]

01:51:29   you say that I don't have a lot of [TS]

01:51:30   detractors or whatever I think maybe I [TS]

01:51:32   just have one more one more fan the [TS]

01:51:36   friend than then not because if you had [TS]

01:51:38   one powerful Wikipedia enemy that page [TS]

01:51:40   will be gone already uh because they can [TS]

01:51:42   just get it well I do I sent I send [TS]

01:51:44   Wikipedia a box of chocolates every [TS]

01:51:46   couple weeks just keep it there and [TS]

01:51:48   notability the notability requirement [TS]

01:51:50   falls into the same trap as looking for [TS]

01:51:52   approval from the teachers and academics [TS]

01:51:54   because what determines notability is [TS]

01:51:57   like did you appear in a paper magazine [TS]

01:51:59   who cares if you appeared in an article [TS]

01:52:01   that was read by 40 million people if [TS]

01:52:03   you appeared in a paper magazine that [TS]

01:52:05   has it that has a circulation of ten [TS]

01:52:07   thousand that's notable but if you're on [TS]

01:52:09   a webpage on some stupid website that [TS]

01:52:11   had 40 million hits not notable because [TS]

01:52:13   websites are not cool with the old [TS]

01:52:15   librarians because they're not paper the [TS]

01:52:17   notability requirements they're evolving [TS]

01:52:19   but they started out and are still [TS]

01:52:20   incredibly crappy and it's such it's so [TS]

01:52:22   perverse that this thing that exists [TS]

01:52:24   online wikipedia it is a product of the [TS]

01:52:27   online world has these rules that are so [TS]

01:52:29   rooted in the sort of the oligarchy of [TS]

01:52:33   the the past and the paper world i know [TS]

01:52:35   that's the right word there i'm just you [TS]

01:52:37   know the establishment of everything [TS]

01:52:39   that came before it this this in an [TS]

01:52:41   attempt to gain approval from that world [TS]

01:52:42   they are perverting themselves into this [TS]

01:52:44   horrible thing that you know they're not [TS]

01:52:46   perverting they started out from this [TS]

01:52:47   from day one i think it's just a [TS]

01:52:48   terrible terrible mistake and the fact [TS]

01:52:51   that these people on your wikipedia page [TS]

01:52:52   are now spending all their energy trying [TS]

01:52:53   to like prove to some cabal that you're [TS]

01:52:57   notable rather than spending their time [TS]

01:52:58   and energy and making sure the page is [TS]

01:52:59   accurate and adding information is just [TS]

01:53:01   a total waste of time [TS]

01:53:03   and most people won't put up with that [TS]

01:53:04   and that's why a lot of people including [TS]

01:53:06   me have completely checked out of [TS]

01:53:07   contributing in any way to wikipedia [TS]

01:53:09   because it's just like forget that i [TS]

01:53:11   understand what Kapiti is now and i [TS]

01:53:12   don't want have any part of that it's [TS]

01:53:14   not to say they don't love reading [TS]

01:53:15   Wikipedia pages and appreciate the stuff [TS]

01:53:16   that's made there [TS]

01:53:17   it's just there's no way that I'm gonna [TS]

01:53:19   get involved that is I don't agree with [TS]

01:53:20   the goals of the thing I don't agree [TS]

01:53:21   with the premise of the publication and [TS]

01:53:23   you say well if you don't agree with the [TS]

01:53:24   premise but you sure love the products [TS]

01:53:26   that came out of it I think within the [TS]

01:53:28   framework of those of those premises you [TS]

01:53:30   can have good content but that doesn't [TS]

01:53:32   mean I think it could be so much better [TS]

01:53:34   and I don't want to get involved in that [TS]

01:53:36   process because I know it will just [TS]

01:53:37   frustrate me because it's not it's not [TS]

01:53:39   what I want out of Wikipedia and having [TS]

01:53:41   your own page getting finally getting [TS]

01:53:42   around to that that is like the worst [TS]

01:53:44   curse because anyone can write any damn [TS]

01:53:46   thing they want about you on that page [TS]

01:53:47   and you can't do a thing about yeah [TS]

01:53:49   you're not supposed to edit your own [TS]

01:53:50   stuff they could write the wrong [TS]

01:53:52   birthday for you down there but they had [TS]

01:53:54   the wrong person on me for a long time [TS]

01:53:55   you can't crack your own birthday be [TS]

01:53:57   some stupid Wikipedia will revert that [TS]

01:53:59   change insightful no you can't correct [TS]

01:54:00   your birthday you don't know when your [TS]

01:54:01   birthday is original research you're not [TS]

01:54:03   supposed to and that's supposed to edit [TS]

01:54:05   your own no original resource you're a [TS]

01:54:06   primary source you can't you know [TS]

01:54:08   correct your birthday I'm sure they're [TS]

01:54:11   Wikipedians out there saying actually [TS]

01:54:12   that's not true if you corrected your [TS]

01:54:13   birthday we let that stand that's [TS]

01:54:14   clearly established within the rules [TS]

01:54:16   over but this this is you know it really [TS]

01:54:19   is a curse to have your own Wikipedia [TS]

01:54:21   page because you have and they're gonna [TS]

01:54:22   say well that's that's the blessing of [TS]

01:54:23   Wikipedia you have no the person has no [TS]

01:54:25   control over that page as well they [TS]

01:54:26   shouldn't they shouldn't have their own [TS]

01:54:28   control over their own page because then [TS]

01:54:29   I'll just use it as a soapbox but it's [TS]

01:54:30   like if the goal was truth and you put [TS]

01:54:34   something down there that everyone that [TS]

01:54:36   no one everyone agreed was true like you [TS]

01:54:38   know your birthday like do you have to [TS]

01:54:39   take a picture your birth certificate no [TS]

01:54:40   that's original research what you would [TS]

01:54:41   have to do and this finally brings me to [TS]

01:54:43   the xkcd comic letter put in the show [TS]

01:54:46   notes but you would have to do is take a [TS]

01:54:48   picture of your birth certificate then [TS]

01:54:49   have a friend who works for Newsweek or [TS]

01:54:51   other paper publication write a story [TS]