66: The Housewives of Siracusa County


00:00:00   [Music] [TS]

00:00:02   this is hypercritical weekly talkshow [TS]

00:00:04   ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:06   the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:08   technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

00:00:10   so perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

00:00:13   about by my co-host John siracusa I'm [TS]

00:00:16   Dan Benjamin this is episode number 66 [TS]

00:00:20   it's Friday May 4 2012 [TS]

00:00:24   I want to say thanks very much to our [TS]

00:00:26   three sponsors today tap typing [TS]

00:00:29   Squarespace and text astok tell you more [TS]

00:00:33   about them as the show goes on we want [TS]

00:00:35   to also say thanks to a friend of 5x5 [TS]

00:00:39   Jory [TS]

00:00:40   Raphael who does all of the amazing show [TS]

00:00:43   artwork that you see on 5x5 he did the [TS]

00:00:46   logo among other things well he has an [TS]

00:00:47   awesome icon set called symbolic cons [TS]

00:00:50   comm and he is the one secretly [TS]

00:00:54   providing and subsidizing our bandwidth [TS]

00:00:56   for this month so go check out symbolic [TS]

00:00:59   cons com thanks very much to him for [TS]

00:01:02   doing that [TS]

00:01:03   John greeting sir how are you I went [TS]

00:01:08   back to programming yeah why not it's [TS]

00:01:11   what you do it's what you do best [TS]

00:01:14   might be Perl it up right that's what I [TS]

00:01:22   was doing all right you want do show [TS]

00:01:25   sure why not how are you doing fine [TS]

00:01:29   feels like a long time since we've done [TS]

00:01:30   a show I had just been a week seems like [TS]

00:01:32   a lot longer just a week got another one [TS]

00:01:37   of those shows today what does that mean [TS]

00:01:39   shows that they're just saturated with [TS]

00:01:43   follow up oh oh that's that's your [TS]

00:01:45   favorite kind of show though no it's [TS]

00:01:47   kind of getting becoming a mix now [TS]

00:01:49   because a lot of the follow up things [TS]

00:01:50   like what if you're following up on [TS]

00:01:51   something that's from like last year is [TS]

00:01:54   that still follow up are you talking [TS]

00:01:55   about a new thing [TS]

00:01:56   if you've ever mentioned it before then [TS]

00:01:59   by definition is follow yeah I'm on the [TS]

00:02:02   long graph it seems like everything [TS]

00:02:03   eventually is follow up right yeah that [TS]

00:02:07   no that makes sense in the long term [TS]

00:02:10   we're all dead Dan all right on that [TS]

00:02:12   note [TS]

00:02:13   let's start alright there were some [TS]

00:02:16   small ones fall up a Pattaya michael de [TS]

00:02:21   gusta wrote in to say that in all his [TS]

00:02:24   listening on 5x5 about WWC stuff across [TS]

00:02:27   several different shows lots of [TS]

00:02:28   different people talked about it he [TS]

00:02:30   didn't hear anyone mentioned the idea of [TS]

00:02:33   pronouncing the on sale date and time [TS]

00:02:35   now I listen to a lot of these shows to [TS]

00:02:37   him I thought this was actually [TS]

00:02:39   mentioned by someone but I'm pretty sure [TS]

00:02:40   wasn't mentioned by me so in that regard [TS]

00:02:42   at least he's right [TS]

00:02:43   now the idea is that if these tickets [TS]

00:02:45   are going to sell out the least Apple [TS]

00:02:48   can do is announce like okay in two [TS]

00:02:52   weeks the tickets are going to go on [TS]

00:02:53   sale at 8 a.m. Eastern Time whatever so [TS]

00:02:55   that people around the world can decide [TS]

00:02:57   then to stay up late or whatever instead [TS]

00:02:58   of sleeping in their beds with their [TS]

00:03:00   cell phones next to their head hoping [TS]

00:03:02   they're going to be notified by some [TS]

00:03:03   sort of alert system just simply pre [TS]

00:03:05   announce the date and that would give a [TS]

00:03:07   more fair shot to everybody who wants to [TS]

00:03:11   just clamor to get the tickets [TS]

00:03:12   immediately I'm not sure why they don't [TS]

00:03:14   do that other than apples usual policy [TS]

00:03:16   of never pre announcing anything they [TS]

00:03:18   tell you when they're available and then [TS]

00:03:19   they're available and I'm also not sure [TS]

00:03:22   for our how much how much happier that [TS]

00:03:27   would make everybody involved I don't [TS]

00:03:28   know I guess it would make the people on [TS]

00:03:29   the other side of the world happier but [TS]

00:03:30   would they really be happy if they [TS]

00:03:32   stayed up until 3 a.m. and still didn't [TS]

00:03:34   get tickets so there's that downside as [TS]

00:03:37   well but it's it's worth mentioning the [TS]

00:03:39   idea of pre announcing the on sale time [TS]

00:03:41   even though that's definitely not an [TS]

00:03:42   Apple style thing to do we'll see next [TS]

00:03:44   year if they consider that maurice kelly [TS]

00:03:50   has a little bit of follow up about [TS]

00:03:52   we're talking about things for sale in [TS]

00:03:54   the ios app store that can only list [TS]

00:03:58   their requirements based on what [TS]

00:04:00   features they want but not based on the [TS]

00:04:02   actual model of a phone or whatever so [TS]

00:04:03   there was an example of a game that only [TS]

00:04:05   ran on the 3GS but there was no way for [TS]

00:04:07   the developer to specify that because [TS]

00:04:11   you can only specify the features that [TS]

00:04:13   you want and someone wrote in [TS]

00:04:15   subsequently saying well if you just [TS]

00:04:16   simply specify that you need a [TS]

00:04:18   front-facing camera that would eliminate [TS]

00:04:20   for example the ipad one from contention [TS]

00:04:23   even if you're you know you don't need a [TS]

00:04:25   camera for your game if you just [TS]

00:04:26   that is a requirement then you will [TS]

00:04:29   eliminate the iPad one from the in from [TS]

00:04:31   the requirement sidebar then someone [TS]

00:04:33   else wrote in and I think I agreed with [TS]

00:04:35   the idea that Apple might frown upon [TS]

00:04:37   that practice of you know saying okay my [TS]

00:04:41   game doesn't really need a front-facing [TS]

00:04:42   camera but I'm going to listed in the [TS]

00:04:43   requirements anyway just to get the [TS]

00:04:44   result I want on the website because I [TS]

00:04:46   don't want people being confused by the [TS]

00:04:49   requirements that make it seem like you [TS]

00:04:51   can run this on your iPhone 3G or on [TS]

00:04:52   your iPad one over time when you can't [TS]

00:04:54   and so Maurice Kelly points out that [TS]

00:04:56   Apple itself uh he was does this with [TS]

00:04:59   iPhoto he was prohibited from buying [TS]

00:05:01   iPhoto for iOS because he lacks a [TS]

00:05:05   front-facing camera now I don't know if [TS]

00:05:07   I thought we uses the front-facing [TS]

00:05:08   camera I can you take a picture from [TS]

00:05:11   within iPhoto it seems like you probably [TS]

00:05:13   can't you can take it from the Photos [TS]

00:05:15   app I guess but if Apple itself is not [TS]

00:05:18   beyond doing this that doesn't mean that [TS]

00:05:19   developers are free to do it as well but [TS]

00:05:21   I guess is something developers can [TS]

00:05:23   experiment with if you want to waste two [TS]

00:05:24   weeks of your life [TS]

00:05:25   submit your game with the requirement [TS]

00:05:26   says you need a front-facing camera and [TS]

00:05:28   see if the person who looks at it says [TS]

00:05:29   sorry rejected your game doesn't [TS]

00:05:32   actually use the camera please send it [TS]

00:05:33   back with different requirements I'm not [TS]

00:05:36   sure many people want to run that [TS]

00:05:37   experiment it was last show when I was [TS]

00:05:43   complaining about the new Gmail UI I [TS]

00:05:46   mentioned the contacts were hidden away [TS]

00:05:48   inside Gmail and that there wasn't a [TS]

00:05:50   separate context at google.com via [TS]

00:05:52   reticle site apparently there is [TS]

00:05:54   emmerich writes in to tell me that there [TS]

00:05:55   are there is a contact google.com and he [TS]

00:05:59   uses it all the time and it's been [TS]

00:06:01   around forever but I've never actually [TS]

00:06:02   used it so there you go if you're [TS]

00:06:04   looking for your contacts and you can't [TS]

00:06:05   find them in Gmail just go to context [TS]

00:06:07   google comm and you will find it's their [TS]

00:06:09   family friends family acquaintances and [TS]

00:06:12   circles and then there's something [TS]

00:06:14   called most contacted other contacts are [TS]

00:06:19   you or your Google contacts a mess I [TS]

00:06:21   don't pay any attention to them I mean I [TS]

00:06:23   never use this stuff mine RMS like I [TS]

00:06:27   have a fighting chance kind of of [TS]

00:06:29   managing my contacts in the address book [TS]

00:06:31   but my Google contacts are just a big [TS]

00:06:33   hairy mess and I cannot figure out what [TS]

00:06:36   the problem is [TS]

00:06:37   and it bothers me a lot because I would [TS]

00:06:40   like [TS]

00:06:40   - you know the original complaint was [TS]

00:06:42   Google context it's like Oh every time I [TS]

00:06:44   email somebody it adds in to my contacts [TS]

00:06:46   list so Google said okay we can fix that [TS]

00:06:47   while I add an option that says please [TS]

00:06:50   don't add people to my context when I [TS]

00:06:51   email them but that's not the solution [TS]

00:06:53   like because then they don't appear in [TS]

00:06:55   your autocomplete history or what you [TS]

00:06:56   want to have is don't add every single [TS]

00:06:59   contact the email to my address book but [TS]

00:07:01   do add them to the autocomplete list in [TS]

00:07:03   case I want to email them to the N again [TS]

00:07:04   and I actually haven't tried turning it [TS]

00:07:07   off because I do want the autocomplete [TS]

00:07:08   the work I just basically ignore the [TS]

00:07:09   contacts but it bothers me when I go [TS]

00:07:11   into my contacts and I see it just a big [TS]

00:07:12   mess with like a million duplicates and [TS]

00:07:14   just knowing knowing it's out there [TS]

00:07:16   bothers you well here's the here's the [TS]

00:07:17   practical effect of it somehow I don't [TS]

00:07:20   know how this happens but I'll be [TS]

00:07:22   looking like my my a diem or a diem as [TS]

00:07:24   the developers say buddy list and I'll [TS]

00:07:27   see a window with a bunch of chat from [TS]

00:07:29   somebody and I'll have the wrong name [TS]

00:07:31   next to them it'll say like Bob Smith [TS]

00:07:33   but I will see a bunch of chat from [TS]

00:07:34   somebody who I know is not Bob Smith and [TS]

00:07:36   I'll say what back is going on so I like [TS]

00:07:37   right click on them in the Buddy list [TS]

00:07:39   and see what the deal is and I will find [TS]

00:07:41   that there's an ADM contact that has [TS]

00:07:46   8,000 email addresses gmail email [TS]

00:07:48   addresses and IIM names under it and [TS]

00:07:51   some random alias you know it says Bob [TS]

00:07:53   Smith like what who why does this [TS]

00:07:56   contact have all these people's Gmail [TS]

00:07:58   and gtalk and aim addresses them and [TS]

00:08:00   then it says Bob Smith this is these are [TS]

00:08:02   like 17 different people and then I'll [TS]

00:08:04   go to my Google contacts listen I'll [TS]

00:08:05   find sure enough I found a contact [TS]

00:08:06   called Bob Smith that has a thousand [TS]

00:08:08   email addresses attached to it and a [TS]

00:08:10   whole bunch of AI AM addresses attached [TS]

00:08:11   to it I don't know how that thing came [TS]

00:08:12   to be and why it has all these things [TS]

00:08:14   attached to it you know like literally [TS]

00:08:17   fifty to a hundred email addresses Gmail [TS]

00:08:21   addresses gtalk things and and names [TS]

00:08:23   attached under some random name so I [TS]

00:08:25   deleted I clean it all out and I forget [TS]

00:08:26   about it and then it comes back I'm [TS]

00:08:28   always afraid that I'm going to be [TS]

00:08:29   talking to someone no I think oh I think [TS]

00:08:30   I'm talking to one person I'll be [TS]

00:08:31   talking to someone entirely different [TS]

00:08:32   you know I got to keep right-clicking my [TS]

00:08:34   contacts to make sure I know who they [TS]

00:08:36   are so Google contacts angers me I [TS]

00:08:39   haven't quite figured we didn't need [TS]

00:08:44   that sidebar there all right that's one [TS]

00:08:49   here's an email from Jason Gregory who [TS]

00:08:52   was nice to point out that his [TS]

00:08:54   name which is spelled G re G Ori is [TS]

00:08:56   pronounced like the first name Gregory [TS]

00:08:58   but not like Grigory which is exactly [TS]

00:09:00   how I was going to pronounce that he [TS]

00:09:01   says some reason everyone wants to put a [TS]

00:09:03   big emphasis on a second G so I wanted [TS]

00:09:05   to do I don't know why I see GRE GRE I [TS]

00:09:07   want to say Grigory but no it's Jason [TS]

00:09:09   Gregory so thank you for the [TS]

00:09:10   appreciation guy he says that when I was [TS]

00:09:13   talking about WOD C and how you get to [TS]

00:09:15   talk to Apple developers and stuff he [TS]

00:09:18   says he went to WC last year for the [TS]

00:09:19   first time and didn't really get to do [TS]

00:09:21   that he says I'm kind of shy and didn't [TS]

00:09:23   know anyone else there let alone [TS]

00:09:24   well-known personality like you guys I'm [TS]

00:09:26   going again this year I was wondering if [TS]

00:09:28   you'd give me some advice on about [TS]

00:09:29   talking to Apple developers so there's [TS]

00:09:31   two parts of that the first thing is [TS]

00:09:33   what I was talking about when I said you [TS]

00:09:35   developers want to go to WABC to talk to [TS]

00:09:37   to the Apple engineers you can make an [TS]

00:09:40   appointment to see an Apple engineer [TS]

00:09:42   about a specific topic where you sit [TS]

00:09:44   down in the lab with them and look at [TS]

00:09:46   your source code and ask them your a [TS]

00:09:48   specific question so like nothing to do [TS]

00:09:50   with social anything is let they have an [TS]

00:09:51   actual I don't know how hard it is to [TS]

00:09:53   get those appointments maybe it may be [TS]

00:09:54   there it's difficult to get them but I [TS]

00:09:55   bet during the course of the week you [TS]

00:09:58   will be able to get a slot with an [TS]

00:09:59   appointment with the person you know [TS]

00:10:01   with a with a particular person that you [TS]

00:10:03   want to talk to maybe you don't know [TS]

00:10:04   them by name but you just say hey I need [TS]

00:10:05   someone to help me with core data I [TS]

00:10:06   which by the way in the previous show I [TS]

00:10:08   thought I was saying core data the [TS]

00:10:09   entire time and apparently I was saying [TS]

00:10:11   core foundation which is also a thing [TS]

00:10:13   but it was not what I meant to say mouth [TS]

00:10:14   and brain that connected so so that's [TS]

00:10:17   the first thing you can actually make [TS]

00:10:19   appointments in the labs and you will [TS]

00:10:21   get to talk to an Apple engineer just [TS]

00:10:23   you one-on-one by appointment no social [TS]

00:10:25   anything necessary now the second thing [TS]

00:10:27   is I'm totally the wrong person to talk [TS]

00:10:30   to about how to socially find Apple [TS]

00:10:33   engineers and talk to them [TS]

00:10:34   because I don't know most of their names [TS]

00:10:36   and I'm just lucky enough that some of [TS]

00:10:38   them might happen to know my name and I [TS]

00:10:40   get to talk to them so that is if you [TS]

00:10:42   are not a social butterfly and don't [TS]

00:10:44   know how to navigate that world and make [TS]

00:10:46   friends with people and stuff it may be [TS]

00:10:47   difficult to find the people you want to [TS]

00:10:50   talk to in in a sort of organic social [TS]

00:10:52   setting because before and after they [TS]

00:10:55   give their that they give their talks I [TS]

00:10:57   mean usually after someone gives a [TS]

00:10:58   session you can kind of hang around and [TS]

00:11:00   talk to them for a few minutes but [TS]

00:11:01   really like the room is going to be used [TS]

00:11:02   for another session and they've got [TS]

00:11:03   somewhere to be and it's not is not the [TS]

00:11:06   ideal environment I don't know [TS]

00:11:08   advice to give you to try to find people [TS]

00:11:10   outside of a structured environment so I [TS]

00:11:12   would say make an appointment in the [TS]

00:11:13   labs try to hang out afterwards to talk [TS]

00:11:16   to someone you're interested in but [TS]

00:11:17   maybe just say like hey can is there any [TS]

00:11:19   time you can talk with me later if they [TS]

00:11:20   just gave a talk about something you [TS]

00:11:21   have more questions - or maybe they can [TS]

00:11:23   direct you to someone else at the end of [TS]

00:11:25   every session they also have a slide [TS]

00:11:26   that says if you have any questions [TS]

00:11:27   email such-and-such a person who's [TS]

00:11:29   usually not the person who gave the [TS]

00:11:30   presentation but hits some [TS]

00:11:31   representative of this group or whatever [TS]

00:11:34   so write down those email addresses and [TS]

00:11:35   make contacts and maybe I guess the [TS]

00:11:37   other thing I suggest is start following [TS]

00:11:39   Apple employees and Apple developers and [TS]

00:11:42   people indirectly related to them on [TS]

00:11:43   Twitter and start communicating with [TS]

00:11:45   them that way in a nice and respectful [TS]

00:11:47   constructive manner and maybe they will [TS]

00:11:50   notice your niceness and [TS]

00:11:52   constructiveness and interest and you [TS]

00:11:54   can form some kind of relationship with [TS]

00:11:56   them 140 characters at a time and then [TS]

00:11:58   maybe say hey I'm going to wotc will you [TS]

00:12:00   be there blah blah blah that's one way [TS]

00:12:02   you might be able to get to know people [TS]

00:12:03   if you are also very shy and don't know [TS]

00:12:05   how to do it because that's one of the [TS]

00:12:07   great things about Twitter I think is [TS]

00:12:08   that it's one it's a medium where you [TS]

00:12:10   can end up having person-to-person [TS]

00:12:12   contact with people you would never [TS]

00:12:14   otherwise have contact with like they're [TS]

00:12:16   never going to answer your email there [TS]

00:12:17   your emails them probably goes to some [TS]

00:12:18   sort of handle or PR firm because [TS]

00:12:20   they're too big or famous type of [TS]

00:12:21   celebrities or whatever but on any [TS]

00:12:24   random day some celebrities are very [TS]

00:12:26   needy people and they will say you know [TS]

00:12:27   I'm up late at night and I'm a famous [TS]

00:12:30   celebrity ask me anything and I will [TS]

00:12:32   answer your questions and it's 3m where [TS]

00:12:34   they are and it's a normal time where [TS]

00:12:36   you are and you tweet them something and [TS]

00:12:38   they tweet you back and you just had a [TS]

00:12:40   140 character exchange with a famous [TS]

00:12:42   person who you would never have contact [TS]

00:12:43   with otherwise that's not so useful for [TS]

00:12:47   celebrities but for Apple engineers [TS]

00:12:48   again you're never allowed you know this [TS]

00:12:50   person even worked at Apple or or who [TS]

00:12:52   they wore whatever but you can find them [TS]

00:12:54   through social networks on Twitter and [TS]

00:12:55   sometimes they're bored and 140 [TS]

00:12:58   characters not a big commitment and [TS]

00:12:59   again they were probably never answer an [TS]

00:13:00   email if you emailed them directly they [TS]

00:13:01   would redirect you to develop all [TS]

00:13:03   technical services or whatever but on [TS]

00:13:06   Twitter they might send you a reply [TS]

00:13:07   about something so give that a try but I [TS]

00:13:10   will reiterate asking me for advice on [TS]

00:13:13   social things it's probably not a good [TS]

00:13:19   so I lounge has a one of those typical [TS]

00:13:23   rumor stories that we start to see about [TS]

00:13:24   like what is the next iPhone going to [TS]

00:13:26   look like I thought this was a [TS]

00:13:28   noteworthy not because I lend any [TS]

00:13:30   particularly credence to it remember all [TS]

00:13:31   the wedge rumors last year and we've got [TS]

00:13:33   all these liquid metal rumors going [TS]

00:13:35   around so we this is the season of every [TS]

00:13:37   possible rumor about the phone you could [TS]

00:13:39   imagine I linked to in the show notes [TS]

00:13:42   though because I thought it was a nice [TS]

00:13:44   sort of summation of the rumors that [TS]

00:13:46   we've talked about elsewhere if you were [TS]

00:13:48   to combine them all together and say [TS]

00:13:50   what could this kind of look like they [TS]

00:13:51   did some nice pictures of it so they're [TS]

00:13:54   the one that they did was bigger [TS]

00:13:58   you know taller screen as we discussed [TS]

00:13:59   but also thinner and they put a metal [TS]

00:14:04   back on the phone instead of a glass one [TS]

00:14:06   and they made you know the glass to [TS]

00:14:08   store more stuff like us but the thing I [TS]

00:14:10   took away from their little mock-ups was [TS]

00:14:11   that if you make the iPhone a little bit [TS]

00:14:13   bigger but you get some thinness and [TS]

00:14:16   return for that it does it makes the [TS]

00:14:19   phone look new and the bigness of it [TS]

00:14:22   like it's not you know humongous like [TS]

00:14:24   some of the Android phones but the [TS]

00:14:25   bigness of it is compensated I think by [TS]

00:14:28   the thinness and it kind of makes the [TS]

00:14:29   existing phone look squat and fat which [TS]

00:14:32   is usually what you want from new apple [TS]

00:14:34   Harbor you wanted to admit make the old [TS]

00:14:35   one look crappy so just seeing that you [TS]

00:14:39   know the mock-up they have of this [TS]

00:14:40   fantasy phone the data snot and it's not [TS]

00:14:42   a ridiculous fantasies only two [TS]

00:14:43   millimeters thinner right but they [TS]

00:14:44   didn't you know a 3d rendering program [TS]

00:14:46   and I'm assuming it's all to scale and [TS]

00:14:47   they made the screen taller but not [TS]

00:14:49   wider and it's a four inch diagonal [TS]

00:14:51   screen now right just looking at that [TS]

00:14:53   and then looking at you know my wife's [TS]

00:14:55   iPhone 4s sitting here already it starts [TS]

00:14:57   to look cool so I think a design like [TS]

00:14:59   that a larger phone that happens to be a [TS]

00:15:01   little bit thinner would be visually [TS]

00:15:04   successful in making people feel that [TS]

00:15:07   their old phone is crappy and they need [TS]

00:15:09   a new phone and it doesn't look too [TS]

00:15:10   gargantuan and the other exciting thing [TS]

00:15:12   about this and I think one of the reason [TS]

00:15:13   a lot of people send it to me is that [TS]

00:15:14   they put a new dock connector at the [TS]

00:15:15   bottom in this room or think - they made [TS]

00:15:17   it like a smaller dock connector with [TS]

00:15:18   fewer pins and it looks it looks very [TS]

00:15:21   similar to the speaker holes at the [TS]

00:15:22   bottom of the iPhone 4s where it's a [TS]

00:15:25   kind of like a rounded rectangular or [TS]

00:15:27   pill shape I don't know that's likely at [TS]

00:15:30   all or you know there's no technical [TS]

00:15:31   details it could [TS]

00:15:32   be another fantasy but you know I don't [TS]

00:15:34   like the existing dock connector so I [TS]

00:15:35   say thumbs up to that rumor I hope if [TS]

00:15:38   they have produced the phone exactly [TS]

00:15:39   like that rumored phone I would be [TS]

00:15:41   completely satisfied with it I think it [TS]

00:15:42   would be awesome so go for that Apple [TS]

00:15:47   true speaking of fantasy prototype [TS]

00:15:50   things here's one I tried to chase down [TS]

00:15:53   the origin of this and I kind of went [TS]

00:15:55   around in circles and it's very [TS]

00:15:56   confusing to me because I don't [TS]

00:15:57   understand the internet apparently but [TS]

00:15:59   this is a YouTube video showing a new [TS]

00:16:02   prototype of a way to type on the iPad [TS]

00:16:04   did you see that video I did not I [TS]

00:16:06   tweeted it the other day I'll send it to [TS]

00:16:09   you now or is it not going to be in the [TS]

00:16:11   show notes and isn't a show notes aw [TS]

00:16:13   that's right you can just look at the [TS]

00:16:13   show yeah there you go [TS]

00:16:15   so do you see the iPad prototype thing I [TS]

00:16:17   was trying to say like who made this [TS]

00:16:18   prototype so when you go to the YouTube [TS]

00:16:20   video you can see it seems like it's the [TS]

00:16:24   we turn off my speakers before this gets [TS]

00:16:26   noisy yeah you can see that it this [TS]

00:16:30   looks like the original like the [TS]

00:16:31   original video or whatever but then at [TS]

00:16:32   the bottom it says I just saw Daniel [TS]

00:16:34   Hooper's iPad keyboard demo what are you [TS]

00:16:36   are you aren't you Daniel Hooper that [TS]

00:16:39   the the YouTube user name is Daniel [TS]

00:16:42   chase Hooper like I can't figure out [TS]

00:16:43   that he make this why would he write in [TS]

00:16:46   his own description that he draws saw [TS]

00:16:47   his own it's confusing to me Biya [TS]

00:16:49   because he was trying to promote it and [TS]

00:16:51   hoping that people who link this up [TS]

00:16:53   Whittle that text copy and paste that I [TS]

00:16:55   guess like so he's writing it for you [TS]

00:16:58   you should follow me on Twitter kind of [TS]

00:17:00   thing like oh I can just copy and paste [TS]

00:17:03   this that's why yeah and I did I saw [TS]

00:17:05   this originally a Daniel Jacque had [TS]

00:17:07   tweeted it and he sent it from one of [TS]

00:17:10   those you know reblogging sites and [TS]

00:17:11   every blogging site had basically copied [TS]

00:17:12   and pasted the same thing there this [TS]

00:17:14   thing is urging everyone to file a bug [TS]

00:17:16   report as a duplicate of an existing [TS]

00:17:18   radar to say you should do this thing so [TS]

00:17:19   anyway uh have you been looking at this [TS]

00:17:21   video here yeah I had not seen this [TS]

00:17:23   before and the text selection is what [TS]

00:17:26   jumps out at me is being pretty cool [TS]

00:17:29   yeah that's the the big pitch here is [TS]

00:17:31   that it's annoying to place the cursor [TS]

00:17:33   in iOS you know you got to put your [TS]

00:17:35   finger on the thing you got to hold it [TS]

00:17:36   down and the little magnifying glass [TS]

00:17:38   comes up and you swipe around and then [TS]

00:17:40   if you want to select you hold down the [TS]

00:17:41   thing and the pop-up comes you would [TS]

00:17:43   select and then you move the little [TS]

00:17:44   lollipop things too so [TS]

00:17:46   stuff and this solution this video is [TS]

00:17:51   that you can move the cursor I think you [TS]

00:17:52   believe you could do this on a web OS [TS]

00:17:54   where you can tell me couldn't you swipe [TS]

00:17:55   like in the little swipey area on webOS [TS]

00:17:57   to move the cursor left to right I don't [TS]

00:18:01   know I'm pretty sure you can do that in [TS]

00:18:03   Palm OS with a stylus but yeah swipe in [TS]

00:18:05   the graffiti area to move the cursor so [TS]

00:18:06   here it is like that it was just for [TS]

00:18:08   backspace I don't think it was well [TS]

00:18:10   selecting right so this this is moving [TS]

00:18:12   the cursor byte by either holding down [TS]

00:18:14   the modifier key on the keyboard and [TS]

00:18:16   sliding your finger across the keyboard [TS]

00:18:17   or doing double finger slide across the [TS]

00:18:20   keyboard basically it allows you to move [TS]

00:18:22   the insertion point by making but by [TS]

00:18:24   making scrolling type gestures on the [TS]

00:18:26   keyboard area as if it were a trackpad [TS]

00:18:28   and as if you know you were moving the [TS]

00:18:30   cursor on a screen but it moves the [TS]

00:18:32   insertion point when you do that and you [TS]

00:18:33   can move it quickly and slowly if it's [TS]

00:18:35   moving you know basically changing the [TS]

00:18:36   stÃ¥le scaling between how far you move [TS]

00:18:38   your finger and how far the insertion [TS]

00:18:40   point moves and obviously the guy doing [TS]

00:18:41   this demo is an expert at the system [TS]

00:18:43   he's created but it's impressive looking [TS]

00:18:47   and exciting to me because I am extreme [TS]

00:18:51   an extremely impatient computer user I [TS]

00:18:54   don't know if this is a class of people [TS]

00:18:56   who fall into this category but I've [TS]

00:18:58   been like this since I was a kid so I [TS]

00:19:00   remember get when I had my first Mac you [TS]

00:19:03   know the Mac 128k and everything which [TS]

00:19:04   granted was a dog slow machine but even [TS]

00:19:06   on the Mac plus in the SC 30 or whatever [TS]

00:19:08   the way I would use the computer is that [TS]

00:19:11   I would you know I would arrange my [TS]

00:19:13   finder just so and I would have [TS]

00:19:14   everything set up and when I wanted to [TS]

00:19:16   navigate into my games folder that I had [TS]

00:19:18   in some subfolder or whatever back back [TS]

00:19:19   in the day people who don't know this [TS]

00:19:20   you could have brain you could have put [TS]

00:19:21   the folders on your Mac anywhere any way [TS]

00:19:24   you wanted the only one you couldn't [TS]

00:19:25   touch as a system folder but everything [TS]

00:19:27   else was you know fair game so I had [TS]

00:19:28   this little world I'd created on my [TS]

00:19:29   computer where the stuff was and I would [TS]

00:19:32   double click a folder and then it would [TS]

00:19:33   do that little rubber band animation and [TS]

00:19:35   you know draw the new window and by the [TS]

00:19:38   time the new window drew I would have my [TS]

00:19:40   cursor poised over the spot where I knew [TS]

00:19:42   the next icon I wanted to click was and [TS]

00:19:44   the same thing with dialog boxes well if [TS]

00:19:45   I went to you know save or something I [TS]

00:19:47   would have my cursor poised over the [TS]

00:19:50   button that in the dialog box so that [TS]

00:19:52   when the dialog appeared I was exactly [TS]

00:19:53   over a notice hit click so from my [TS]

00:19:56   perspective I'm going through this [TS]

00:19:57   interminable wait like I've sent a [TS]

00:19:59   command that [TS]

00:20:00   I was going to produce a dialog box now [TS]

00:20:02   I'll bring the cursor over to where I [TS]

00:20:03   know the dialog box will appear so that [TS]

00:20:05   when it eventually appears the button I [TS]

00:20:07   want to press will be banila my cursor [TS]

00:20:08   now I wait tap-tap-tap seeing some [TS]

00:20:12   little animation [TS]

00:20:13   tap-tap-tap yes the 8 megahertz CPU or [TS]

00:20:16   whatever it was grinding away okay [TS]

00:20:18   rubber-banding it's drawing the window [TS]

00:20:20   it's drawing the titlebar drawing the [TS]

00:20:22   buttons and click that's what using [TS]

00:20:25   computer was like to me as a kid I was [TS]

00:20:27   like I cannot believe how slow these [TS]

00:20:28   things are and when people like my uncle [TS]

00:20:30   and my grandfather would come over and [TS]

00:20:32   asked me to show them something on the [TS]

00:20:33   computer and they would say we can't see [TS]

00:20:36   anything there's it by the time any [TS]

00:20:37   window drew I had already dismissed it [TS]

00:20:38   because I don't clicked whatever button [TS]

00:20:40   I wanted to click in it so I was just [TS]

00:20:41   like the computer spent most of its time [TS]

00:20:43   partially drawing windows and then I [TS]

00:20:45   would click as soon as I knew that the [TS]

00:20:47   window could accept input even if it [TS]

00:20:48   hadn't completely drawn so this is and I [TS]

00:20:51   still feel this way and this comes up in [TS]

00:20:54   iOS because that wait when you press [TS]

00:20:56   your finger down to place an insertion [TS]

00:20:58   point feels like forever to me it feels [TS]

00:21:00   like oh my god what am i doing I guess [TS]

00:21:02   and my brain will start thinking about [TS]

00:21:03   something else now what am I gonna have [TS]

00:21:05   for dinner today I'm gonna you know when [TS]

00:21:07   am I going to pick the kids up on up [TS]

00:21:08   it's now I see it's it's put up the [TS]

00:21:10   little magnifying glass now I can move [TS]

00:21:11   the insertion point so this type of [TS]

00:21:14   thing where there is no delay because it [TS]

00:21:16   doesn't have to distinguish between [TS]

00:21:17   tapping and tapping and holding I makes [TS]

00:21:20   me very excited but as I said on Twitter [TS]

00:21:22   when I tweeted this my fear is that [TS]

00:21:24   Apple is not particularly gung-ho about [TS]

00:21:26   indirect input on the iPad like the [TS]

00:21:28   whole deal with the iPad is you touch [TS]

00:21:30   where you want to do stuff which is why [TS]

00:21:31   when you want to place the insertion [TS]

00:21:33   point you jab your finger between the [TS]

00:21:34   two letters where you want to push the [TS]

00:21:35   insertion point and they don't really [TS]

00:21:37   care that you have to wait for a delay [TS]

00:21:38   because they're not most people are not [TS]

00:21:39   crazy [TS]

00:21:40   impatient computer users like I am but [TS]

00:21:42   this thing is like now your keyboard is [TS]

00:21:44   become a trackpad and it's indirect its [TS]

00:21:46   indirect input it's different than like [TS]

00:21:48   people saying oh they have the iOS [TS]

00:21:49   gestures and stuff they do but those are [TS]

00:21:51   kind of like Universal like pinch [TS]

00:21:53   together to go back to the home screen [TS]

00:21:54   doesn't really matter where you do that [TS]

00:21:56   it's not like you're doing it you know [TS]

00:21:57   you're not doing an action in one place [TS]

00:21:58   and seeing a real-time reaction [TS]

00:22:00   someplace else as if like your finger [TS]

00:22:03   and the insertion point are like quantum [TS]

00:22:05   entangled but not touching each other [TS]

00:22:06   right so I don't think they would ever [TS]

00:22:10   make this like certainly not the default [TS]

00:22:13   and if they even included it maybe would [TS]

00:22:16   be like an option like the iOS gestures [TS]

00:22:17   but I bet they would mostly say no this [TS]

00:22:20   kind of goes against the philosophy of [TS]

00:22:22   iOS where we want direct manipulation we [TS]

00:22:24   don't want you fiddling with one part of [TS]

00:22:27   the screen and and you know having stuff [TS]

00:22:29   happen it's kind of like the graffiti [TS]

00:22:31   area where you draw your little graffiti [TS]

00:22:32   characters in the graffiti area and then [TS]

00:22:33   the letters appear in the insertion [TS]

00:22:35   point now obviously the keyboard itself [TS]

00:22:36   is an indirect template advice you're [TS]

00:22:38   tapping the G key a G appears not where [TS]

00:22:40   you tap your finger but that's more of a [TS]

00:22:42   oh we're modeling a real-world thing and [TS]

00:22:44   you're familiar with that already you [TS]

00:22:46   could say the same thing I was like well [TS]

00:22:47   it's just like a trackpad make make the [TS]

00:22:49   keyboard suddenly appear to be a [TS]

00:22:50   trackpad and you can swipe the insertion [TS]

00:22:52   point around so I don't know I was just [TS]

00:22:54   very excited about this video and I [TS]

00:22:55   really hope Apple does something like [TS]

00:22:57   this and the music is neat in the [TS]

00:23:00   production value on the on the video or [TS]

00:23:02   need to so thanks daniel hooper if [TS]

00:23:05   that's your real name so here we go for [TS]

00:23:12   the super distant follow up well let's [TS]

00:23:15   do it before you do that let's do our [TS]

00:23:17   first sponsor okay do you have a [TS]

00:23:19   preference I know you've been listening [TS]

00:23:20   this week doing is there one you'd like [TS]

00:23:22   for me to do first I don't know what the [TS]

00:23:24   two are I'm so behind on podcasts I just [TS]

00:23:27   I'm halfway through the talk show [TS]

00:23:28   alright we we have to since we've been [TS]

00:23:31   talking about typing on the iPad it [TS]

00:23:33   would make sense to start with one of [TS]

00:23:34   our first two and I get I guess we'll [TS]

00:23:36   just start with with tap typing as our [TS]

00:23:38   first one because here we are talking [TS]

00:23:40   about it this is a really really cool [TS]

00:23:43   app that it's a new sponsor and I really [TS]

00:23:46   really enjoying using this at myself [TS]

00:23:48   it's uh it is called tap typing and it's [TS]

00:23:51   a typing trainer for iOS so here's the [TS]

00:23:54   thing at touchscreens tablets these [TS]

00:23:56   things are here to stay right they're [TS]

00:23:57   not going away [TS]

00:23:58   if anything people are using more more [TS]

00:24:00   than computers but most people have [TS]

00:24:02   never learned how to effectively type on [TS]

00:24:04   their iPad they either fumble around [TS]

00:24:06   they get discouraged they have feel like [TS]

00:24:08   they have to go and you know like this [TS]

00:24:09   guy created a whole different kind of [TS]

00:24:11   keyboard it doesn't have to be that way [TS]

00:24:13   you don't have to feel frustrated every [TS]

00:24:16   time it's time for you to type something [TS]

00:24:18   on the keyboard and with just a few [TS]

00:24:20   lessons and that's what this tap typing [TS]

00:24:23   is all about you can drastically [TS]

00:24:24   increase your iPad typing [TS]

00:24:26   and therefore you will increase your [TS]

00:24:28   productivity you'll be able to grab your [TS]

00:24:30   iPad with supreme confidence knowing [TS]

00:24:33   that this is the only device that you [TS]

00:24:35   need you don't need to worry about [TS]

00:24:36   bringing your laptop you won't need it [TS]

00:24:37   especially when I tell you about our [TS]

00:24:39   second sponsor program I'm going to head [TS]

00:24:40   myself because this is about increasing [TS]

00:24:43   your productivity they have lessons [TS]

00:24:45   ranging from beginner to advanced they [TS]

00:24:47   have a speed test does global rankings [TS]

00:24:50   so you can see how you compare with [TS]

00:24:51   everybody else out there and this is the [TS]

00:24:54   part that's really cool it tracks where [TS]

00:24:56   your fingers hit the screen as you type [TS]

00:24:58   and it creates a heat map of where [TS]

00:25:00   you're making mistakes so you know what [TS]

00:25:03   you're doing wrong the bottom line is [TS]

00:25:05   this you spend time learning how to type [TS]

00:25:07   and that is an investment in making [TS]

00:25:10   yourself more productive all you need to [TS]

00:25:12   do you go to get tap typing calm get tap [TS]

00:25:15   typing calm you can see the app you can [TS]

00:25:17   see everything about it you can go it [TS]

00:25:20   will have links via to the store and [TS]

00:25:22   everything else that's where you go get [TS]

00:25:23   tap typing calm very cool in the guy in [TS]

00:25:28   the video taps route types really fast [TS]

00:25:30   and I've seen a lot of really fast [TS]

00:25:31   iOS typist I and Andy and nacho is [TS]

00:25:34   pretty fast yeah he's been using that a [TS]

00:25:36   lot as his 11 inch MacBook Air [TS]

00:25:39   replacement that's this way to get good [TS]

00:25:41   practice also Carnegie Hall so this [TS]

00:25:46   topic the distant follow-up that I [TS]

00:25:47   wasn't going to talk about it all but [TS]

00:25:49   massive Twitter and email pressure has [TS]

00:25:51   convinced me that it's worth doing and [TS]

00:25:53   lo and behold they giant spew of notes [TS]

00:25:55   appears on this topic [TS]

00:25:57   making makings the size of the fault in [TS]

00:25:59   the show probably untenable but but here [TS]

00:26:01   we go this is a ruby motion have you [TS]

00:26:05   talked about this on other shows this [TS]

00:26:06   week already uh this is something that's [TS]

00:26:09   new enough and I think the only other [TS]

00:26:11   show I might have discussed it on would [TS]

00:26:13   have been built and analyzed but we did [TS]

00:26:15   not talk about it I'm not sure if it had [TS]

00:26:17   been announced yet but this is pretty [TS]

00:26:19   interesting I was actually looking at a [TS]

00:26:20   bit more this morning hoping hoping that [TS]

00:26:22   you would discuss it yeah so is the the [TS]

00:26:26   to get the story in this first of all I [TS]

00:26:28   would suggest the arts technical story [TS]

00:26:30   by Ryan Paul I which he interviews the [TS]

00:26:33   person who created this and has lots of [TS]

00:26:34   detail and he actually includes the full [TS]

00:26:38   source code to a [TS]

00:26:39   sample application that he wrote using [TS]

00:26:41   tool because he's been in on the private [TS]

00:26:42   beta so this is this is the place to go [TS]

00:26:44   if you just want to know what this is [TS]

00:26:45   about [TS]

00:26:46   but don't want like the one paragraph [TS]

00:26:47   summary sorry's link is in the show [TS]

00:26:49   notes I know I will summarize the [TS]

00:26:51   summary so Ruby motion is a commercial [TS]

00:26:54   product that lets you develop [TS]

00:26:55   applications for iOS it's currently on [TS]

00:26:57   sale for hundred fifty bucks but their [TS]

00:26:59   real price is 200 so that's the business [TS]

00:27:01   model they sell you this development of [TS]

00:27:03   iron trimming is a by Laurent sense and [TS]

00:27:08   Eddie I hope I'm pronouncing his is it [TS]

00:27:11   that's like is that a boy or girl's name [TS]

00:27:13   I know nothing about French I don't [TS]

00:27:16   sorry we don't either I'm going to [TS]

00:27:18   assume chat room you can help me out is [TS]

00:27:22   that a boy or girl's name should just [TS]

00:27:24   assume that it's male because as a [TS]

00:27:25   programmer is that sexist Laura [TS]

00:27:27   sounds like a a male name to me but I [TS]

00:27:29   don't know anything about French names [TS]

00:27:31   everyone says boy okay I feel better uh [TS]

00:27:34   he is the creator of Mac Ruby the Mac [TS]

00:27:37   Ruby project which had much love when in [TS]

00:27:40   our past episodes about developing on [TS]

00:27:43   Mac OS 10 and Apple's various frameworks [TS]

00:27:46   for doing so what were those episodes [TS]

00:27:48   that put them in the show it was episode [TS]

00:27:50   14 Dark Age of objective-c and episode [TS]

00:27:53   15 The Bridges of Syracuse County both [TS]

00:27:54   discussed the problems I saw in Apple's [TS]

00:27:58   future of its development platform using [TS]

00:28:00   Objective C which is a language based on [TS]

00:28:02   C which is low-level and gives you [TS]

00:28:03   direct access to memory and it's kind of [TS]

00:28:05   cumbersome to use and all that other [TS]

00:28:06   stuff so lots of people wrote in then [TS]

00:28:09   said what about Mac Ruby lets you write [TS]

00:28:12   cocoa applications then or iOS [TS]

00:28:15   applications in a in using Ruby and it [TS]

00:28:18   calls through the objective-c things [TS]

00:28:20   under the cover so we talked a lot about [TS]

00:28:21   bridges and stuff like that and a lot of [TS]

00:28:24   people said well you know we I was [TS]

00:28:26   saying I didn't know what Apple's future [TS]

00:28:29   for its development platform would be I [TS]

00:28:30   said well the guy who writes Mac Ruby [TS]

00:28:33   works for Apple and Apple is you know [TS]

00:28:36   sort of unofficially supporting that [TS]

00:28:38   project they thought because he was [TS]

00:28:41   working there and like they haven't said [TS]

00:28:42   anything about it but maybe this is [TS]

00:28:43   their secret thing that they're doing [TS]

00:28:45   this is the future of their platforms [TS]

00:28:49   it's going to be all Ruby Mason we're [TS]

00:28:50   going to come to WC one year they're [TS]

00:28:51   going to say okay well Objective C is [TS]

00:28:52   great and everything but [TS]

00:28:53   now we want you to check out Mac Ruby [TS]

00:28:55   and you're going to be writing your your [TS]

00:28:57   cocoa and and uikit applications in Ruby [TS]

00:29:00   instead calling through to the cocoa API [TS]

00:29:02   as you can still use Objective C if you [TS]

00:29:03   want blah blah blah uh and I remember [TS]

00:29:07   saying that it could be technically [TS]

00:29:10   speaking there's nothing preventing [TS]

00:29:11   Apple from fully supporting this but I [TS]

00:29:13   seriously doubted that it would be [TS]

00:29:14   mostly because I heard nothing and from [TS]

00:29:16   Apple and saw nothing from Apple to [TS]

00:29:18   indicate that they were behind this as a [TS]

00:29:20   solution and I heard and saw many things [TS]

00:29:22   to indicate that it was not behind us as [TS]

00:29:24   a solution even before last year's [TS]

00:29:25   Debussy I was like if they're going to [TS]

00:29:27   do Mac Ruby you would think I would see [TS]

00:29:30   more hints in that direction and what I [TS]

00:29:31   saw was hints in the direction of things [TS]

00:29:33   like Arc and tweaking Objective C and [TS]

00:29:36   you know really sort of doubling down on [TS]

00:29:38   their that trying to make Objective C [TS]

00:29:40   better versus saying oh you're just [TS]

00:29:42   going to use Ruby for everything and so [TS]

00:29:44   far that's been the case arc was [TS]

00:29:45   introduced last WWC and they've been [TS]

00:29:48   enhancing Objective C an increasing pace [TS]

00:29:50   and they've really committed to their [TS]

00:29:52   compiler infrastructure which granted [TS]

00:29:54   micro-b uses as well but they're adding [TS]

00:29:57   a lot of features to the Objective C [TS]

00:29:58   language and stuff so I didn't see them [TS]

00:29:59   using Mac Ruby now Mac Ruby was created [TS]

00:30:05   in 2007 and the person who created it [TS]

00:30:07   Laurence ensign Eddy recently left his [TS]

00:30:09   job at Apple after seven years there to [TS]

00:30:13   start his own startup to do this thing [TS]

00:30:14   and what the Ryan polls and the articles [TS]

00:30:17   that said his desire to continue working [TS]

00:30:19   on Mac Ruby there you go his I could [TS]

00:30:21   have just looked at in the article his [TS]

00:30:22   desire to continue working on Mac Ruby [TS]

00:30:24   was one of the factors that motivated [TS]

00:30:25   him to leave Apple want his own company [TS]

00:30:27   hmm that's pretty conclusive saying that [TS]

00:30:29   he wanted to do Ruby he thought you [TS]

00:30:31   could develop applications with Ruby for [TS]

00:30:33   iOS and Mac OS 10 Apple disagreed so he [TS]

00:30:35   left the company this is very similar to [TS]

00:30:37   the guy who was running what is it [TS]

00:30:39   called tens compliment for the for the [TS]

00:30:41   ZFS port to Mac OS 10 he was working on [TS]

00:30:44   that internally Apple said no we're not [TS]

00:30:45   going to do ZFS for Mac OS 10 so he left [TS]

00:30:48   to start his own company to do ZFS for [TS]

00:30:49   Mac OS 10 so here's another example the [TS]

00:30:51   same thing but I think this is pretty [TS]

00:30:53   much as confirmed as you can get that [TS]

00:30:55   Mac Ruby is not going to be the future [TS]

00:30:57   of the development platform for Apple at [TS]

00:30:59   least as far as Apple is concerned right [TS]

00:31:00   now because he had to leave the company [TS]

00:31:02   to pursue what he wanted to do now lot [TS]

00:31:07   people have been asking me you know [TS]

00:31:09   isn't this much better than what you [TS]

00:31:10   talked about on this bridge episodes [TS]

00:31:11   well if you've listened to all those [TS]

00:31:12   episodes where I talked about the future [TS]

00:31:15   of their platform and bridges and stuff [TS]

00:31:16   I don't see how the announcement of Ruby [TS]

00:31:19   motion changes anything that I said [TS]

00:31:20   because it's basically I don't know if [TS]

00:31:23   it's exactly the Mac Ruby code but it's [TS]

00:31:24   it's very it's it's Mac Ruby with a nice [TS]

00:31:27   IDE and stuff like that and I don't [TS]

00:31:31   think it changes any of the fundamental [TS]

00:31:33   things that I talked about then other [TS]

00:31:34   than you know being more nicely packaged [TS]

00:31:38   implementation and commercially [TS]

00:31:39   supported and all the other stuff so [TS]

00:31:41   just I'll go over a few of them briefly [TS]

00:31:43   and you can go back and listen to those [TS]

00:31:45   shows - here's long drawn-out version [TS]

00:31:46   but I still think you don't get all the [TS]

00:31:48   benefits of your fancy new high level [TS]

00:31:50   language if you're using it to call into [TS]

00:31:52   an API design for a lower level language [TS]

00:31:54   and I went into more detail about in the [TS]

00:31:56   shows but and to be fair to Mac Ruby it [TS]

00:31:59   is the best I've seen in terms of okay [TS]

00:32:01   so use your your cool high level [TS]

00:32:03   language to call into objective-c api's [TS]

00:32:05   I mean it does does the native bridging [TS]

00:32:08   of types like you know your Ruby strings [TS]

00:32:10   or any strings in Ruby classes or your [TS]

00:32:12   Ruby objects or NS objects and it [TS]

00:32:13   bridges NS array and NS dictionary and [TS]

00:32:15   all that stuff to the native Ruby types [TS]

00:32:17   like it's a bet that's the best you can [TS]

00:32:18   hope for and the ID has some cool demos [TS]

00:32:22   of showing like hey since this is Ruby [TS]

00:32:24   you can when you start your app in the [TS]

00:32:27   debug or whatever you can get a ripple [TS]

00:32:28   where you can just do real-time changes [TS]

00:32:30   to your application like you can put a [TS]

00:32:32   breakpoint stop and then inspect some [TS]

00:32:33   properties and fiddle them in your [TS]

00:32:35   running application now you can do that [TS]

00:32:36   in the fancier versions of gdb and LD be [TS]

00:32:39   but it's considerably easier to do that [TS]

00:32:41   in a high level language rep one by the [TS]

00:32:43   way the ARS technica article use the [TS]

00:32:45   word use the abbreviation repple capital [TS]

00:32:47   repl without linking it anywhere without [TS]

00:32:50   explaining it which is pretty brave if I [TS]

00:32:51   had written that article I would have [TS]

00:32:52   linked it somewhere so for people who [TS]

00:32:54   don't know what a repple is its length [TS]

00:32:55   in the show notes it's read eval print [TS]

00:32:57   loop it's basically you get an [TS]

00:32:59   interactive prompt in your program where [TS]

00:33:01   you can manipulate any data in the [TS]

00:33:03   current you know where you are on the [TS]

00:33:05   current stack frame or whatever on the [TS]

00:33:06   particular line of code and you can [TS]

00:33:07   fiddle with it and inspect it modify it [TS]

00:33:08   and then continue your program that's [TS]

00:33:10   interactive debugging people who use the [TS]

00:33:12   high-level languages like JavaScript or [TS]

00:33:13   Python or Perl or Ruby are used to this [TS]

00:33:16   is just the way we do development you [TS]

00:33:17   set your breakpoint you get up to that [TS]

00:33:19   point and [TS]

00:33:20   you see what the heck is going on what's [TS]

00:33:21   going to happen inspect your data maybe [TS]

00:33:23   change it see if you can continue you [TS]

00:33:25   know it's a nicer way to debug then if [TS]

00:33:28   you have a compiled language and you're [TS]

00:33:29   not familiar enough with the debugger to [TS]

00:33:31   be able to do the same things most again [TS]

00:33:35   most low-level languages do have some [TS]

00:33:36   sort of modify and continue debugger but [TS]

00:33:39   it's not kind of it's not something that [TS]

00:33:41   everybody uses those type of languages [TS]

00:33:43   use as whereas in the high-level [TS]

00:33:44   language is just taken for granted [TS]

00:33:45   that's something you have so I think Mac [TS]

00:33:47   Ruby is great there but regardless of [TS]

00:33:50   you know the regardless of the level of [TS]

00:33:53   your language even ignoring like high [TS]

00:33:54   level versus low level using one [TS]

00:33:56   language to call into an API written in [TS]

00:33:57   another language adds all sorts of [TS]

00:33:59   weirdness like and then example they [TS]

00:34:01   give me articles at the Cohen Convention [TS]

00:34:02   is just different it's not because ones [TS]

00:34:04   high level on the level but it's just [TS]

00:34:05   that just different in this regard it's [TS]

00:34:07   nice that Ruby and Objective C are [TS]

00:34:08   similar in so many ways which is what [TS]

00:34:09   makes the bridging better than other [TS]

00:34:11   kinds of bridges like for example from [TS]

00:34:13   like Java Objective C bridge was worse [TS]

00:34:15   because Java was more different than [TS]

00:34:16   Ruby is and stuff but just having two [TS]

00:34:19   different languages even if they're [TS]

00:34:20   exactly the same level when the calling [TS]

00:34:22   convention of different makes things [TS]

00:34:23   weird [TS]

00:34:23   so Objective C has like the function [TS]

00:34:26   signatures where it's like set the thing [TS]

00:34:29   colon with the thing colon and the thing [TS]

00:34:31   colon and that's the whole signature but [TS]

00:34:32   you you put the arguments interspersed [TS]

00:34:34   in the middle those it looks like name [TS]

00:34:36   parameters but it's really not it's [TS]

00:34:37   really just a fancy way of calling [TS]

00:34:38   something someone in Ruby you got to do [TS]

00:34:39   like object dot set the thing with and [TS]

00:34:43   then the thing comma the other thing [TS]

00:34:46   colon and then the other thing value it [TS]

00:34:49   it's kind of like weird and awkward [TS]

00:34:50   because it's just you know it looks [TS]

00:34:52   strange and you can't even like the same [TS]

00:34:55   string searches because the method [TS]

00:34:57   signatures include like the first [TS]

00:34:58   argument and then you have to make some [TS]

00:34:59   sort of decision about alright how do I [TS]

00:35:01   translate from the square bracket [TS]

00:35:02   expression of an objective-c message [TS]

00:35:05   send into my object dot something parens [TS]

00:35:08   version in Ruby and so they just choose [TS]

00:35:10   a way to do it but it just ends up being [TS]

00:35:11   weird and so you're using it you know [TS]

00:35:17   getting back to the high level versus [TS]

00:35:18   low level thing you're presumably you're [TS]

00:35:20   using Ruby because you like it better [TS]

00:35:22   than Objective C you know like it states [TS]

00:35:23   those people who love Ruby it's like Oh [TS]

00:35:25   beautiful and elegant and all it is [TS]

00:35:27   succinct [TS]

00:35:29   and but like that's why you're using it [TS]

00:35:33   but then here are all these ugly warts [TS]

00:35:36   like you would never write a ruby API to [TS]

00:35:38   look like the things that you have to [TS]

00:35:39   call because they're objective-c api's [TS]

00:35:41   it the beauty is partially lost because [TS]

00:35:43   most of what your program is doing is [TS]

00:35:46   calling through to an API written in [TS]

00:35:47   another language that you must call in [TS]

00:35:49   your Ruby code and it just looks weird [TS]

00:35:51   you just know it's not a native Ruby API [TS]

00:35:53   because no sane Ruby person would ever [TS]

00:35:55   make any bad it looks anything like this [TS]

00:35:57   it's just weird and the final point that [TS]

00:36:00   I made in all those episodes is that the [TS]

00:36:02   hard part of making an iOS app or a Mac [TS]

00:36:04   app using cocoa or whatever is learning [TS]

00:36:07   the API as learning UI kit an app kit [TS]

00:36:09   and foundation and all these things [TS]

00:36:11   that's the hard part the hard part is [TS]

00:36:12   not the language and once you know the [TS]

00:36:14   API once you know enough to make an iOS [TS]

00:36:17   application or cocoa application or [TS]

00:36:18   something at that point is like why not [TS]

00:36:20   just use objective-c like how much of [TS]

00:36:24   your program how much of what you're [TS]

00:36:25   doing in your program is someplace where [TS]

00:36:28   you're like okay now this is just a [TS]

00:36:29   block of plain old Ruby and I'm just [TS]

00:36:30   going to do some simple string [TS]

00:36:31   manipulation that's so much easier to do [TS]

00:36:32   in Ruby and that's I think that's true [TS]

00:36:34   it is probably easy to do simple string [TS]

00:36:36   manipulation and stuff like that in Ruby [TS]

00:36:38   than it is an objective-c but the vast [TS]

00:36:40   majority of the time in your program [TS]

00:36:41   you're calling into API is that you [TS]

00:36:43   didn't write and the hard part is [TS]

00:36:44   figuring out which one of those to call [TS]

00:36:45   and how to call them and what sequence [TS]

00:36:46   and how to arrange your program and that [TS]

00:36:48   doesn't change with the language and so [TS]

00:36:49   like you're so close to just writing a [TS]

00:36:52   native objective-c that it's like you [TS]

00:36:55   know there's the confusion of having to [TS]

00:36:56   go through the bridge layer and [TS]

00:36:57   everything balanced with the supposed [TS]

00:37:00   benefits you're getting but once you [TS]

00:37:01   learn that API I know if I would did [TS]

00:37:03   this and did like a Mac Ruby application [TS]

00:37:06   and I got it working everything I'd be [TS]

00:37:07   like man now enough about know enough [TS]

00:37:08   about a UI kit that I could just write [TS]

00:37:10   this in Objective C and not have this [TS]

00:37:12   intermediary layer that I have to worry [TS]

00:37:13   about right and the other thing of [TS]

00:37:19   course is that objective-c is Apple [TS]

00:37:21   supported platform that they keep [TS]

00:37:22   improving it that you can use a full [TS]

00:37:24   Apple tool chain one of the points that [TS]

00:37:26   Ryan polemics and the article is that [TS]

00:37:27   Ruby motion does not use what used to be [TS]

00:37:29   known as interface builder and it's now [TS]

00:37:31   integrated into Xcode right you can't [TS]

00:37:34   lay out your you eyes using a GUI you [TS]

00:37:36   got to use it programmatically which is [TS]

00:37:37   something that not everyone is familiar [TS]

00:37:39   with it certainly has a higher learning [TS]

00:37:40   curve at the learner all the api's a [TS]

00:37:41   pedal they stuff out and if you [TS]

00:37:43   visually oriented is not quite as nice [TS]

00:37:44   and there's a lot of design shops app [TS]

00:37:46   design shops where the person doing the [TS]

00:37:49   user interface has no connection to the [TS]

00:37:52   code they're simply designed I I know [TS]

00:37:54   there are a lot of people that work in [TS]

00:37:55   this way maybe it's a team of two people [TS]

00:37:57   one writes code one does the user [TS]

00:37:59   interface usability part and then that [TS]

00:38:02   should bother people yeah and like [TS]

00:38:06   they're trying to help like Cincinnati [TS]

00:38:07   says that they have their own layout [TS]

00:38:09   system that they've developed that they [TS]

00:38:12   said Xcode integration is on the roadmap [TS]

00:38:14   but not the short-term roadmap so that's [TS]

00:38:16   out there and they're their own things [TS]

00:38:18   so it works this is kind of like CSS and [TS]

00:38:21   it's similar to the cocoa auto layout [TS]

00:38:22   which uses little ASCII art diagrams [TS]

00:38:24   except it's something that's done in [TS]

00:38:26   Ruby with a DSL type thing so it's more [TS]

00:38:28   Ruby flavored but it's a way to [TS]

00:38:30   programmatically layout controls it's [TS]

00:38:32   nicer than just having to make a bunch [TS]

00:38:33   of calls giving some sort of web evil [TS]

00:38:36   DSL a kind of way to do stuff but I [TS]

00:38:40   still think people like you know I again [TS]

00:38:41   like you said if there's if there's [TS]

00:38:42   designers doing it or something you're [TS]

00:38:44   not going to hey check out this cool DSL [TS]

00:38:46   or check out Auto layout with ASCII art [TS]

00:38:47   they're just going to roll their eyes [TS]

00:38:48   they they want to drag buttons onto a [TS]

00:38:50   form and connect not put lines into all [TS]

00:38:52   that stuff oh let's see what else do we [TS]

00:38:57   have on this what else you got no we're [TS]

00:39:00   not done with this topic since it [TS]

00:39:01   continues on and on so the thing about [TS]

00:39:06   being on the Apple training using [TS]

00:39:09   Apple's tool chain it's worth noting at [TS]

00:39:10   this point that not using Apple's tool [TS]

00:39:15   chain can be seen as a benefit to many [TS]

00:39:17   people because the latest version of [TS]

00:39:19   Xcode has a lot of detractors both in [TS]

00:39:21   terms of user interface but primarily in [TS]

00:39:23   terms of its bugginess and performance [TS]

00:39:25   so this is coming at just the right time [TS]

00:39:28   I think of people who are just annoyed [TS]

00:39:29   at the latest version of Xcode because [TS]

00:39:31   it's slow and it keeps crashing and [TS]

00:39:33   screws up their projects and stuff like [TS]

00:39:34   that like mad they just want to get out [TS]

00:39:36   of that like I want to build navigation [TS]

00:39:37   want to get out of that unfortunately [TS]

00:39:38   those people who are complaining are [TS]

00:39:40   usually pretty hardcore iOS or Mac [TS]

00:39:42   developers who have a tremendous amount [TS]

00:39:44   of knowledge invested in objective-c in [TS]

00:39:45   that platform and I don't think they can [TS]

00:39:47   just slide right into Ruby cocoa but not [TS]

00:39:49   Ruby cocoa Mac Ruby or Ruby motion so [TS]

00:39:53   maybe they'll give it a try and play [TS]

00:39:54   with it and maybe it will get some [TS]

00:39:55   traction if ever there was [TS]

00:39:56   for it to land and have the best chance [TS]

00:39:58   of getting traction I think it's now [TS]

00:39:59   with the dissatisfaction of apples with [TS]

00:40:01   apples tools I think Apple will [TS]

00:40:03   eventually get its tools settled down [TS]

00:40:04   that the latest version of Xcode is a [TS]

00:40:06   quite a change from the previous one and [TS]

00:40:09   it's been rocky for a while but [TS]

00:40:10   presumably like you would assume they [TS]

00:40:12   would eventually get it settled down a [TS]

00:40:14   lot of people are like alright let's [TS]

00:40:16   consider Xcode for a bad joke and WWC [TS]

00:40:19   they're going to Xcode 5 and it will [TS]

00:40:21   actually work so there's lots of [TS]

00:40:22   fantasies going on in that regard but [TS]

00:40:24   the latest version of Xcode 4 is not [TS]

00:40:25   well loved so we'll see how they do [TS]

00:40:29   but the final point I have to make on [TS]

00:40:31   this is that Apple really really hates [TS]

00:40:34   it when people don't use its tools like [TS]

00:40:35   that's that's the elephant in the room [TS]

00:40:37   about all this they've really hate it [TS]

00:40:38   they do not want you developing [TS]

00:40:40   applications for that platform using any [TS]

00:40:42   tools other than their own they [TS]

00:40:44   seriously hate like the flash stuff [TS]

00:40:46   making you know making applications with [TS]

00:40:48   flash and porting them and I like all [TS]

00:40:50   those debates they just know you want to [TS]

00:40:53   make applications our platform use our [TS]

00:40:55   tools to do it [TS]

00:40:55   and then people camera at all these [TS]

00:40:56   workarounds right we'll use a different [TS]

00:40:58   tool but we'll produce objective-c code [TS]

00:40:59   and you won't be able to tell the [TS]

00:41:00   difference Apple and so far apples been [TS]

00:41:02   like ah well fine I mean it's [TS]

00:41:04   objective-c code and you're submitting [TS]

00:41:07   us binary that looks like it was built [TS]

00:41:08   with our tools and it looks like it was [TS]

00:41:10   written Objective C and we don't know [TS]

00:41:11   that it was and like that's a constant [TS]

00:41:16   struggle but you just know Apple doesn't [TS]

00:41:17   like that because that what they don't [TS]

00:41:18   want is a code warrior situation where [TS]

00:41:21   the vast majority of their user base is [TS]

00:41:25   using an IDE that they don't control and [TS]

00:41:26   all of a sudden the progress of their [TS]

00:41:27   platform is controlled by a third-party [TS]

00:41:29   company that they have no control over [TS]

00:41:30   right because like I think we made this [TS]

00:41:32   awesome new thing and like oh well I [TS]

00:41:33   can't even use that until code warrior [TS]

00:41:35   updates to support it all right they do [TS]

00:41:36   not want that to happen ever ever again [TS]

00:41:38   and it's just like an institutional [TS]

00:41:39   hatred of using any tools other than [TS]

00:41:42   their own they want complete ownership [TS]

00:41:43   of the tools they want you to use them [TS]

00:41:44   and if they can force you using they [TS]

00:41:45   will so that is the grim outlook for [TS]

00:41:49   anybody trying to make any sort of tool [TS]

00:41:51   that you use instead of Xcode to make [TS]

00:41:53   your applications even if you use their [TS]

00:41:54   full compiler tool chain you know [TS]

00:41:55   they're using LLVM and clang and like [TS]

00:41:58   that's that's what Ruby motion is using [TS]

00:42:00   it's totally native it's making its [TS]

00:42:01   making Objective C applications like you [TS]

00:42:03   don't have to know that it was written [TS]

00:42:03   in code [TS]

00:42:05   and Ruby but I just know that Apple does [TS]

00:42:07   not like that so if one of these IDs [TS]

00:42:10   ever got traction it became insanely [TS]

00:42:11   popular look for a confrontation of some [TS]

00:42:15   kind or something coming to a head the [TS]

00:42:18   best thing that could happen to remotion [TS]

00:42:19   ik is that it could be used by a few [TS]

00:42:22   really great developers and get popular [TS]

00:42:25   enough to be self-supporting [TS]

00:42:26   but still not be in widespread use [TS]

00:42:28   because that would keep it safe sort of [TS]

00:42:32   one of the point I had in us I have too [TS]

00:42:34   many things bolded here was that I think [TS]

00:42:38   Sansa matey's heart is in the right [TS]

00:42:40   place with this thing I quote from the [TS]

00:42:43   the ARS technica article does it has [TS]

00:42:44   some quotes from him right in it says an [TS]

00:42:46   iOS application written in Ruby will [TS]

00:42:48   contain significantly less lines of code [TS]

00:42:50   than a comparable app written in [TS]

00:42:51   objective-c like that's what you want [TS]

00:42:52   right that's why all these doodles you [TS]

00:42:55   don't want to just like oh what looks [TS]

00:42:57   prettier because there's no funny square [TS]

00:42:58   brackets like that's not the goal [TS]

00:42:59   like that's maybe one of the goals but [TS]

00:43:01   that's not what you want it to be less [TS]

00:43:02   code that's what you want and I think [TS]

00:43:06   this delivers on that just if only [TS]

00:43:08   getting rid of like declaration [TS]

00:43:10   boilerplate and headers and the example [TS]

00:43:12   code in the in the article is only 100 [TS]

00:43:14   lines it's only hundred lines because [TS]

00:43:16   you can put it all on one file you just [TS]

00:43:18   do multiple class definitions and you [TS]

00:43:19   don't have to have like separate MS and [TS]

00:43:21   dot H's and interface and property [TS]

00:43:24   declarations and synthesize calls and [TS]

00:43:26   it's just you know it's less noisy and [TS]

00:43:28   there's less boilerplate and so there is [TS]

00:43:31   a real benefit there I think but it's [TS]

00:43:33   obviously not what Apple wants to go [TS]

00:43:34   with and if I was writing an application [TS]

00:43:37   for the Mac or iOS I would probably just [TS]

00:43:40   bite the bullet and learn and learn [TS]

00:43:41   objective-c because that feels like [TS]

00:43:42   still be safe bet to me that's why the [TS]

00:43:45   advice I've always heard from every [TS]

00:43:47   developer that I've ever talked to is [TS]

00:43:49   you know bite the bullet learn Objective [TS]

00:43:52   C it's got the best support [TS]

00:43:54   it's from Apple it's by Apple they're [TS]

00:43:58   always going to make sure that this [TS]

00:43:59   works unless they invent something new [TS]

00:44:02   but this is official why if you're going [TS]

00:44:04   to embrace the platform would you not [TS]

00:44:06   embrace the infrastructure that they've [TS]

00:44:08   provided for you otherwise because the [TS]

00:44:12   infrastructure sucks and keeps crashing [TS]

00:44:13   in annoys me and I don't like the [TS]

00:44:14   language as much as other stuff but but [TS]

00:44:16   again I truly think the hardest [TS]

00:44:18   these applications is that you have to [TS]

00:44:21   learn the API it's not learning the [TS]

00:44:23   language Objective C takes you know an [TS]

00:44:25   experienced programmer a day to get the [TS]

00:44:27   basics you know you're fine right it's [TS]

00:44:28   not the language it's the API and the [TS]

00:44:31   API is a lot to learn no matter what [TS]

00:44:33   language you program it in so that [TS]

00:44:35   that's always been a sticking point to [TS]

00:44:37   me so that's the end of Ruby motion I [TS]

00:44:41   applaud the effort I think it looks [TS]

00:44:43   really cool and I hope they do not get [TS]

00:44:46   big enough to go into Apple's crosshairs [TS]

00:44:50   that was like a follow up but also kind [TS]

00:44:52   of a topic because it's so distant but [TS]

00:44:54   now back to the regular follow up I [TS]

00:44:56   really wanted to limit this to shows but [TS]

00:44:59   due to my own incompetence I have failed [TS]

00:45:00   to do so games games and gaming well [TS]

00:45:03   this is a big this is a big follow up [TS]

00:45:05   topic let's do our second sponsor [TS]

00:45:07   quickly and then we can get into games [TS]

00:45:09   okay are you can will will you allow I [TS]

00:45:11   will text astok this is something I [TS]

00:45:14   would think you like no didn't do you [TS]

00:45:15   have an iPad that you could use do you [TS]

00:45:17   have an iPad you could grab and have for [TS]

00:45:19   the afternoon it's sitting right in [TS]

00:45:20   front of me right now okay so I want you [TS]

00:45:22   to go and install and I think I have a [TS]

00:45:23   promo code for you if you want if you [TS]

00:45:25   don't already have this app text a stick [TS]

00:45:27   it's powerful and fast text editor for [TS]

00:45:29   iPad I love this app it's an advanced [TS]

00:45:32   code editor it has a rich support for [TS]

00:45:34   syntax highlighting it does Dropbox [TS]

00:45:36   integration it does WebDAV it does a FTP [TS]

00:45:40   and SFTP and it supports more than 80 [TS]

00:45:42   different types of files while you're [TS]

00:45:45   typing HTML objective-c Ruby Python and [TS]

00:45:50   if you don't if you like John siracusa [TS]

00:45:52   have invented your own superior [TS]

00:45:54   programming language you can use your [TS]

00:45:57   own text make compatible syntax [TS]

00:45:59   definitions just use your own thing it's [TS]

00:46:02   written from the ground up uses a you [TS]

00:46:05   know native iOS API is like core text so [TS]

00:46:08   it has interactive search it has a very [TS]

00:46:10   fast quick very responsive text editor [TS]

00:46:13   that this whole thing is built around [TS]

00:46:15   it's got these great little additional [TS]

00:46:17   keys over the virtual keyboard to make [TS]

00:46:18   it really easy for you to enter code and [TS]

00:46:20   it has an awesome little cursor [TS]

00:46:23   navigation wheel that makes selecting [TS]

00:46:25   text really easy so first use our first [TS]

00:46:27   sponsor to get up to speed so you can [TS]

00:46:29   type really fast then you get this [TS]

00:46:31   and now you're like coding machine with [TS]

00:46:33   just your iPad you're a coding machine [TS]

00:46:35   and you can update right on the server [TS]

00:46:37   you got SFTP I mentioned that you got [TS]

00:46:39   Dropbox you get all of this stuff and it [TS]

00:46:42   even has code completion for HTML and [TS]

00:46:44   CSS and if you have an external keyboard [TS]

00:46:46   you can use that too it's really awesome [TS]

00:46:49   you go to text asta Capcom let me spell [TS]

00:46:52   that text txt astok ast I see app text [TS]

00:46:57   as de Capcom and if there's developers [TS]

00:47:01   out then even if you're not a developer [TS]

00:47:02   you just want a really really great [TS]

00:47:03   editor with all these features just go [TS]

00:47:05   check it out text tastic they just see [TS]

00:47:09   that thing recently about some a guy or [TS]

00:47:11   a group of people created an entire game [TS]

00:47:14   on an iPad it was an iOS game they [TS]

00:47:16   created entirely on an iPad all the [TS]

00:47:18   coding all the graphics all everything [TS]

00:47:20   pretty cool shows what you can do yeah [TS]

00:47:23   and said what I think when I thought of [TS]

00:47:25   when I saw that was like like hey look [TS]

00:47:27   at this we made we made a whole app on [TS]

00:47:28   the iPad see is not just for consumption [TS]

00:47:30   blah blah it reminded me of kind of like [TS]

00:47:32   if someone had been bragging back in the [TS]

00:47:35   early days of the personal computer or [TS]

00:47:37   our game consoles where you used to need [TS]

00:47:40   to have another bigger fancier computer [TS]

00:47:42   to make programs for the other computer [TS]

00:47:45   yeah like you you I can't think of a [TS]

00:47:47   good concrete example and so someone can [TS]

00:47:49   come up with one but like used you know [TS]

00:47:50   game consoles you'd have to use a [TS]

00:47:51   development thing that was way more [TS]

00:47:53   powerful than the game console itself to [TS]

00:47:55   write it like you don't write the game [TS]

00:47:56   on the game console and even for [TS]

00:47:57   personal computers like a lot of the [TS]

00:47:59   original Mac software was written on a [TS]

00:48:00   Lisa I believe someone can correct me if [TS]

00:48:02   I'm wrong on that because you needed the [TS]

00:48:04   big computer or at least the computer [TS]

00:48:05   was already done to make the connect [TS]

00:48:07   software for the other computer but now [TS]

00:48:10   that seems silly it's like I'm a rogue [TS]

00:48:12   this Mac application on my Mac isn't [TS]

00:48:14   that amazing like no not really uh I [TS]

00:48:17   think in 10 years looking back in the [TS]

00:48:20   stories like someone wrote an iPad [TS]

00:48:22   application on an iPad they'd be like so [TS]

00:48:23   so what that's exciting for what reason [TS]

00:48:26   we're in this weird in-between period [TS]

00:48:29   where we think you can't do we think you [TS]

00:48:30   can't create things for the thing on the [TS]

00:48:31   thing all right [TS]

00:48:34   Gaming gaming gaming so again listening [TS]

00:48:40   to myself on the previous episode I [TS]

00:48:43   immediately struck with [TS]

00:48:45   the points that I totally miss a lot I'm [TS]

00:48:47   listening to mess I'm going wait you now [TS]

00:48:50   don't talk about that now you're missing [TS]

00:48:51   the point here don't you sit in I'm [TS]

00:48:53   again I'm it it's frustrating to listen [TS]

00:48:55   to yourself and realize you're being an [TS]

00:48:56   idiot but there you have it so I'll [TS]

00:49:00   start with some smaller gaming fault and [TS]

00:49:01   then we'll get to the P one major point [TS]

00:49:03   any mess if you recall I last show I [TS]

00:49:07   repented for not having focused enough [TS]

00:49:10   on the distinction I was making that [TS]

00:49:12   games are a weird kind of art because [TS]

00:49:14   they have these qualities of the forms [TS]

00:49:16   of art Don I thought that on the [TS]

00:49:18   original show I had muddied the water by [TS]

00:49:19   bringing by talking about things that [TS]

00:49:20   are not arts to try to illuminate other [TS]

00:49:22   aspects of the analogy but it was a it [TS]

00:49:24   was a tangent that was dragging me off [TS]

00:49:25   course and so on this episode I have a [TS]

00:49:28   point that I missed last time but let's [TS]

00:49:30   start with small follow-up first I have [TS]

00:49:32   something from someone who's I hate when [TS]

00:49:35   I go to someone's Twitter account and [TS]

00:49:36   all I see is the Twitter name and they [TS]

00:49:37   don't have a real name listed because I [TS]

00:49:38   don't know how to credit you so this one [TS]

00:49:40   is stic kan which I don't know how to [TS]

00:49:42   pronounce and if you had provided a real [TS]

00:49:44   name I would have given an effort but he [TS]

00:49:47   sent me a link to oh here's another name [TS]

00:49:50   Dara O'Brien but it's it's not O'Brien [TS]

00:49:54   like Oh a posture fee its Dara da RA and [TS]

00:49:57   then a space then a capital o and then a [TS]

00:49:59   space and then Bri a ayan anyway he's [TS]

00:50:03   Irish I think yeah that's an Irish name [TS]

00:50:05   for sure yes but no pottery so he's a [TS]

00:50:08   stand-up comedian he has a stent he has [TS]

00:50:10   a stand-up comedy skit about the [TS]

00:50:13   difficulty of playing games very similar [TS]

00:50:16   to topic like you know he makes one line [TS]

00:50:17   it's not the point of his comedy routine [TS]

00:50:19   but one line is about it you know other [TS]

00:50:20   forms of art you aren't prevented from [TS]

00:50:22   enjoying because you are not skilled [TS]

00:50:26   enough and it's a good funny routine you [TS]

00:50:28   should watch it at the link is in the [TS]

00:50:30   show notes so I recommend that cage it [TS]

00:50:33   healing chat room says obreon obreon [TS]

00:50:37   well he would know so there you go and [TS]

00:50:40   what it reminded me of seeing the [TS]

00:50:43   stand-up comic talking about video games [TS]

00:50:46   was that it packs this year someone in [TS]

00:50:48   audience asks question during one of the [TS]

00:50:49   Q&A sessions of Mike and Jerry why don't [TS]

00:50:52   you guys have stand-up comedians at PAX [TS]

00:50:54   and what they said was that it's not [TS]

00:50:58   it's a lot of [TS]

00:50:59   people have proposed that but it's not [TS]

00:51:00   easy to find stand-up comedians who do [TS]

00:51:04   like video game relevant humour who [TS]

00:51:07   aren't like patronizing or like not [TS]

00:51:11   really one of us or or just aren't funny [TS]

00:51:13   you know what I mean [TS]

00:51:14   like you can't just say oh I'm a [TS]

00:51:16   stand-up comedian I do video game stuff [TS]

00:51:17   and you can you can tell when the person [TS]

00:51:20   doing the comedy either doesn't get the [TS]

00:51:21   culture isn't a real gamer and the [TS]

00:51:24   people who do get the culture and our [TS]

00:51:25   real gamers are often are not funny so [TS]

00:51:27   it's not easy it's not easy to find a [TS]

00:51:29   stand-up community who's gonna do [TS]

00:51:30   because there it is possible to have [TS]

00:51:31   very funny skits about video games that [TS]

00:51:33   are relevant to gamers but it's rare so [TS]

00:51:35   I looked through this guy I'm like he [TS]

00:51:37   seems like a real gamer to me maybe kind [TS]

00:51:39   of like a in-between II casually kind of [TS]

00:51:44   you know like but and the questions like [TS]

00:51:46   whether he's funny now maybe they can't [TS]

00:51:47   get him maybe he's too big and wherever [TS]

00:51:49   he's from maybe there's don't feel like [TS]

00:51:51   he's a good fit the show and I don't [TS]

00:51:53   know if he is but when I saw this that I [TS]

00:51:54   thought of that like it is difficult to [TS]

00:51:56   find people doing humor about narrow [TS]

00:51:59   interest subjects that are acceptable to [TS]

00:52:02   the people who are into that but who are [TS]

00:52:03   also broadly funny the next one is from [TS]

00:52:07   ash furrow and he I'm something that's [TS]

00:52:09   he again like many other people are [TS]

00:52:11   following my advice and when they have a [TS]

00:52:13   whole bunch of stuff to say about some [TS]

00:52:15   show write a blog post I will link to it [TS]

00:52:17   in the show notes it's better than [TS]

00:52:18   sending me the big giant email that only [TS]

00:52:20   I see and then I have to summarize for [TS]

00:52:21   everybody else all right [TS]

00:52:23   okay Julie says Dara was a physics major [TS]

00:52:25   in college and he's a big science nerd [TS]

00:52:27   yes but doesn't mean he's a gamer [TS]

00:52:28   doesn't mean he is more connection to [TS]

00:52:29   the nerd so anyway ash furro furro wrote [TS]

00:52:32   a blog post that was titled the joys and [TS]

00:52:34   sorrows of being an almost gamer and [TS]

00:52:38   that's in the show notes and he [TS]

00:52:40   complains about he says that he really [TS]

00:52:42   understood what I was talking about when [TS]

00:52:44   I said that some people play games and [TS]

00:52:46   don't have the skills to complete them [TS]

00:52:47   and can be frustrating like games such [TS]

00:52:48   as Zelda to have a soft ramp up to get [TS]

00:52:51   you familiar with mechanics but then [TS]

00:52:52   eventually the game gets too hard and [TS]

00:52:54   you have to stop and he said he has [TS]

00:52:57   experiences this and it kind of sucks [TS]

00:52:58   and it's why he stopped playing video [TS]

00:53:00   games he says he says I've played 2/3 of [TS]

00:53:03   the way through so many game I've almost [TS]

00:53:05   finished it doesn't Zelda games that's [TS]

00:53:07   rough right he says he was getting at [TS]

00:53:11   the portal which is first-person shooter [TS]

00:53:12   he's it [TS]

00:53:13   came to the section that introduces [TS]

00:53:14   turrets I literally panicked I put down [TS]

00:53:16   the game and didn't touch it for a month [TS]

00:53:17   because suddenly had it become a [TS]

00:53:18   first-person shooter and I hated it [TS]

00:53:19   because he's not particularly good at [TS]

00:53:21   first-person shooters and doesn't like [TS]

00:53:22   this kind of games but was encouraged to [TS]

00:53:23   play portal because he said it was like [TS]

00:53:24   a puzzle game but eventually there's [TS]

00:53:26   some first-person Ori stuff import [TS]

00:53:27   first-person kind of stuff in portal [TS]

00:53:29   where you have to be kind of good at [TS]

00:53:31   controlling the character and that makes [TS]

00:53:32   it frustrating so he says he has played [TS]

00:53:36   a whole bunch of games like Mario games [TS]

00:53:37   and Smash Brothers and joy port on [TS]

00:53:39   portal 2 but never enjoyed playing Halo [TS]

00:53:42   or called duty and he says that he [TS]

00:53:43   thinks marginal improvements in gamers [TS]

00:53:45   killed the high level the spectrum can [TS]

00:53:46   result in massive improvements in the [TS]

00:53:48   joy experience while playing so if he [TS]

00:53:50   was a little better shooters he'd enjoy [TS]

00:53:51   them more I would say about this person [TS]

00:53:54   that he's mostly a gamer like he's not [TS]

00:53:56   really the people I was talking about [TS]

00:53:58   the fact that he's gotten as far as he [TS]

00:53:59   has shows that he has much more [TS]

00:54:02   competence in gaming than the vast [TS]

00:54:04   majority of the public I think he could [TS]

00:54:07   play enjoy and get through completely [TS]

00:54:09   like a game like eco and and journey [TS]

00:54:11   very easily shall the classes probably [TS]

00:54:14   still beyond his reach because they does [TS]

00:54:16   get hard drugs in and not finishing [TS]

00:54:18   Zelda games is really rough because like [TS]

00:54:21   especially if you like two-thirds of the [TS]

00:54:23   way through you want to see the ending [TS]

00:54:24   you want to see the conclusion of the [TS]

00:54:25   story you want to have satisfaction for [TS]

00:54:27   the work you've done and if you just [TS]

00:54:28   can't get there that's that's rough so I [TS]

00:54:32   encourage everyone to go read that [TS]

00:54:33   because it is much more interesting than [TS]

00:54:35   my brief summary of it and speaking of [TS]

00:54:38   finishing games Bruce Phillips wrote in [TS]

00:54:40   to point me to an article that shows [TS]

00:54:42   completion percentages for a bunch of [TS]

00:54:44   Xbox 360 games it's a little bit old but [TS]

00:54:46   on the past show I said I would love to [TS]

00:54:48   know how many players actually complete [TS]

00:54:49   games and this isn't necessarily a [TS]

00:54:51   measure of a skill because they could [TS]

00:54:53   you could not complete a game because it [TS]

00:54:54   gets boring or it gets annoying or you [TS]

00:54:56   just don't use it's not fun anymore or [TS]

00:54:57   you think you've played the whole game [TS]

00:54:58   and you're not interested anymore but [TS]

00:55:01   the range is huge so this is a link in [TS]

00:55:03   the show notes it's a game of suture [TS]

00:55:05   article or Gamasutra if you want to [TS]

00:55:07   pronounce it that way and there's like a [TS]

00:55:09   low of a ten percent completion light [TS]

00:55:11   for Guitar Hero game which I assume is [TS]

00:55:13   completely a skill barrier to completion [TS]

00:55:14   because completing 100 percent of Guitar [TS]

00:55:16   Hero takes tremendous textarea musical [TS]

00:55:19   ability that most people don't have and [TS]

00:55:20   it all I think it also gets kind of [TS]

00:55:21   boring as you go and to a high of 75 [TS]

00:55:24   percent for a call duty game which is [TS]

00:55:26   a mass-market game like said they want [TS]

00:55:28   to reduce the scale factor to get to [TS]

00:55:30   find the broadest audience but called [TS]

00:55:32   Duty's is still a pretty hardcore gamer [TS]

00:55:34   game but it's a huge range there in [TS]

00:55:36   completion percentages and I was I wish [TS]

00:55:40   I had more relevant more comprehensive [TS]

00:55:43   data on that on about game makers due to [TS]

00:55:46   that's the point of the article was like [TS]

00:55:47   how to get people to keep playing your [TS]

00:55:49   game I don't know if the article I just [TS]

00:55:51   looked at the graphs I confess I did not [TS]

00:55:52   read the entire thing but I don't know [TS]

00:55:53   if the article goes into whether skill [TS]

00:55:57   is a factor like are people leaving your [TS]

00:55:59   game because they're not engaged or do [TS]

00:56:00   they consider the people leaving your [TS]

00:56:01   game simply because they can't get any [TS]

00:56:03   father oh the next one is Mike F who [TS]

00:56:08   writes in without his full last name [TS]

00:56:10   Mike F mentions the Dean axel F exactly [TS]

00:56:14   Eddie Murphy writes and to say that he [TS]

00:56:16   he doesn't like journey so right away [TS]

00:56:21   he's suspect to me like this was the end [TS]

00:56:22   of this thing I read his entire entire [TS]

00:56:24   email then at the very end he takes a [TS]

00:56:26   jab a journey I'm like oh then why did I [TS]

00:56:27   read the hell mail you're I just written [TS]

00:56:29   you off entirely sorry he suspects but [TS]

00:56:31   what's hearing now let's see what he had [TS]

00:56:33   to say let's try to consider his [TS]

00:56:34   arguments without considering his [TS]

00:56:36   terrible taste in games uh say it says [TS]

00:56:41   it's pretty common to hear video game [TS]

00:56:42   journalists making the same argument you [TS]

00:56:43   did about video game length and how [TS]

00:56:45   meaningless it is as a measure of value [TS]

00:56:46   taken to the extreme that's obviously a [TS]

00:56:48   bad argument a copy of quake three that [TS]

00:56:49   shuts off after a week is worth less [TS]

00:56:51   than one that does not and he suggests [TS]

00:56:53   that it's because if you're not dealt [TS]

00:56:56   with a job and you have less time [TS]

00:56:57   obviously you're going to be if your [TS]

00:56:59   time constrained you value the quality [TS]

00:57:01   of the entertainment more than the the [TS]

00:57:04   length of it but if your money [TS]

00:57:05   constrained like a kid you want to get [TS]

00:57:07   the most bang for your buck you've got [TS]

00:57:08   plenty of time but you only have a [TS]

00:57:09   little bit of money so you don't have [TS]

00:57:10   spend 60 bucks on a game that's that's [TS]

00:57:12   only like five hours long because now [TS]

00:57:13   you got to save up sixty bucks again so [TS]

00:57:16   it's it's you know a difference in [TS]

00:57:18   perspective of what you want to think so [TS]

00:57:20   he says if you're a kid on a budget and [TS]

00:57:23   you can only get a game every two months [TS]

00:57:25   but you really recommend the kid by [TS]

00:57:26   journey well first of all journey is $15 [TS]

00:57:28   so that's not quite a fair comparison [TS]

00:57:30   but what I was specifically talking [TS]

00:57:32   about and complains about how long it [TS]

00:57:33   takes to finish game is that it applies [TS]

00:57:35   mostly to single-player games like when [TS]

00:57:37   someone or someone review a [TS]

00:57:38   single-player game and [TS]

00:57:39   it was only nine hours gameplay and I [TS]

00:57:41   think there should be twenty right and [TS]

00:57:45   the they didn't get X hours enjoyment [TS]

00:57:47   for Y amount of money complaints almost [TS]

00:57:48   exclusively focus on single-player games [TS]

00:57:51   a replay value in dollar for money is [TS]

00:57:54   like a legitimate concern but it's [TS]

00:57:55   mostly wrapped up in in game type very [TS]

00:57:57   very few single-player games having a [TS]

00:57:59   replay value to come close to even a [TS]

00:58:01   mediocre multiplayer game so a game like [TS]

00:58:04   quake 3 yes it'll be ridiculous if the [TS]

00:58:06   game shut off but you try reading your [TS]

00:58:09   review you know what genre you're [TS]

00:58:10   getting into very few people are [TS]

00:58:12   complaining that mmo's don't have enough [TS]

00:58:15   like they're not long enough like there [TS]

00:58:16   are very few MMOs where you can hit the [TS]

00:58:17   level cap in five hours because that [TS]

00:58:20   that I think would be worth complaining [TS]

00:58:21   about you when you get an MMO and [TS]

00:58:23   especially when you get a multiplayer [TS]

00:58:24   multiplayer game is like you can just [TS]

00:58:26   play that forever and ever [TS]

00:58:27   I can never people are still playing [TS]

00:58:28   quake 3 that game never ends [TS]

00:58:30   you know single-player games have an end [TS]

00:58:32   I mean to give a X hours of gameplay [TS]

00:58:34   thing you have to have an end to the [TS]

00:58:37   game and single-player games do have an [TS]

00:58:40   end and there are single-player portions [TS]

00:58:42   of other games you can complain about [TS]

00:58:43   multiplayer games pretty much don't have [TS]

00:58:44   an end even when you hit the level cap [TS]

00:58:45   you can just hang out there in MMO and [TS]

00:58:47   you're not going to get like a level 80 [TS]

00:58:49   wherever that is Wow person in 12 hours [TS]

00:58:51   you're just not I don't know what the [TS]

00:58:52   fastest speedrun up to love lady was but [TS]

00:58:54   it takes normal people are really a long [TS]

00:58:57   time to do that and even when you hit [TS]

00:58:59   the level cap you can just keep playing [TS]

00:59:00   and playing and playing and doing raids [TS]

00:59:02   and just you know there's no end to them [TS]

00:59:04   so I've never personally seen a length [TS]

00:59:08   complaint for a MMO or a multiplayer [TS]

00:59:11   game I only see it for single-player [TS]

00:59:13   games where you play through some sort [TS]

00:59:14   of story and occasionally you see [TS]

00:59:15   complaints about the story mode of a [TS]

00:59:17   multiplayer game like oh yeah it's got [TS]

00:59:18   as awesome multiplayer and stuff but the [TS]

00:59:20   single-player campaign is only four [TS]

00:59:21   hours long and we don't feel like that's [TS]

00:59:22   enough and those are the complaints that [TS]

00:59:24   that I am saying are silly because you [TS]

00:59:29   know if the quality of those four hours [TS]

00:59:30   of single-player game was high enough it [TS]

00:59:33   shouldn't matter and by the way if it's [TS]

00:59:34   part of a multiplayer game is that [TS]

00:59:35   really even the focus aren't you buying [TS]

00:59:37   this game so you can you know play [TS]

00:59:39   multiplayer forever and ever and ever [TS]

00:59:40   until you get bored of it so for people [TS]

00:59:44   who are on time constraint for on money [TS]

00:59:47   constraints I would definitely tell a [TS]

00:59:49   kid who's online straight to buy journey [TS]

00:59:50   because it is only $15 so it's not going [TS]

00:59:53   to hurt their money budget uh but even [TS]

00:59:55   if it was $60 I would still tell I was [TS]

00:59:58   telling me but I recommend that game to [TS]

00:59:59   any [TS]

00:59:59   any [TS]

01:00:00   study if you like good things then you [TS]

01:00:02   should like journey and I think if you [TS]

01:00:05   divide the enjoyment and quality [TS]

01:00:07   you know amount that you get by the time [TS]

01:00:11   money ratio you will still get a higher [TS]

01:00:13   value than you would for even from any [TS]

01:00:14   multiplayer games so but really what I'm [TS]

01:00:18   getting is I don't think people are [TS]

01:00:18   being tricked or duped or gypped by at [TS]

01:00:21   home let's see that's not good that's [TS]

01:00:23   rude for gypsies and very sorry many [TS]

01:00:25   things that come out of my mouth are [TS]

01:00:26   unintentionally racist there's a show [TS]

01:00:29   title for you people who feel like [TS]

01:00:32   they're being swindled by not getting [TS]

01:00:35   what they wanted for their money if [TS]

01:00:36   you're a gamer you know what you're [TS]

01:00:38   getting when you buy an MMO you know [TS]

01:00:39   what you're getting when you buy a [TS]

01:00:40   multiplayer game are you going to you [TS]

01:00:41   buying this game so you can play [TS]

01:00:42   deathmatch so you can play a sports game [TS]

01:00:44   against people online you know how much [TS]

01:00:46   content you're getting and for a [TS]

01:00:47   single-player game I still say it comes [TS]

01:00:49   down to quality and not length I would [TS]

01:00:51   much rather play and even if I wasn't [TS]

01:00:53   totally not time concerned I'm retired I [TS]

01:00:55   have no kids at all the time in the [TS]

01:00:56   world I would still rather play an [TS]

01:00:58   awesome to our game than a mediocre [TS]

01:01:00   crappy 10 15 20 hour game and of course [TS]

01:01:04   the if you really want value for the [TS]

01:01:06   money what you're really looking for if [TS]

01:01:07   you're not into multiplayer games is a [TS]

01:01:09   70 to 80 hour single-player game where [TS]

01:01:11   it's good all the way through and those [TS]

01:01:12   are few and far between Zelda games are [TS]

01:01:14   the only ones that come to mind as what [TS]

01:01:17   you say about journey's as it's a [TS]

01:01:19   pretentious pile of overproduced [TS]

01:01:20   ham-fisted twaddle that's what he said [TS]

01:01:22   about journey hmm so pretentious maybe [TS]

01:01:25   maybe that's the only one I'll possibly [TS]

01:01:27   give him me or maybe he's just too [TS]

01:01:28   cynical but it's a strong argument for [TS]

01:01:30   them for journey being pretentious right [TS]

01:01:32   but overproduced no no no I was very [TS]

01:01:34   understated and it's not over produced [TS]

01:01:36   called duties over produced you know [TS]

01:01:38   journey is not over produced and [TS]

01:01:39   ham-fisted not ham-fisted at all very [TS]

01:01:43   subtle very you know ham-fisted is the [TS]

01:01:46   square jaw jarhead marine guy cursing at [TS]

01:01:49   you about how he's going to crush the [TS]

01:01:51   enemy bugs and like that's that's [TS]

01:01:53   ham-fisted [TS]

01:01:54   Journey has cutscenes with no text and [TS]

01:01:58   no dialogue that is not yeah anyway he's [TS]

01:02:01   wrong about journey I'm right you should [TS]

01:02:03   go buy that game it's $15 this show is [TS]

01:02:06   brought to you by journey [TS]

01:02:08   we've been on pause to the show I can't [TS]

01:02:11   I can't believe it [TS]

01:02:12   well you know they are losing money so [TS]

01:02:13   maybe they don't have that bit see [TS]

01:02:15   they're losing money because they're not [TS]

01:02:18   sponsoring the show that's how this [TS]

01:02:19   works [TS]

01:02:20   finally you get a getting it let Horace [TS]

01:02:22   know that you've cracked it [TS]

01:02:23   Sony what's wrong with Sony not [TS]

01:02:24   sponsoring five-by-five caused the [TS]

01:02:26   downfall of the company it didn't cause [TS]

01:02:27   it but it simply didn't it didn't [TS]

01:02:29   suspend it either her dear first yeah [TS]

01:02:33   all right uh there was I had a Twitter [TS]

01:02:36   exchange shortly after the last show [TS]

01:02:38   about gaming with someone whose Twitter [TS]

01:02:39   handle is frankly and whose name is [TS]

01:02:41   listed only as Frank the original tweet [TS]

01:02:44   started it was saying to me you're still [TS]

01:02:46   making an incorrect assumption that time [TS]

01:02:48   investment can't prove skills I suggest [TS]

01:02:50   reading outliers by Malcolm Gladwell [TS]

01:02:51   which I'm sure Merlyn is glad to hear [TS]

01:02:53   another person recommending a Mountain [TS]

01:02:54   Gladwell book and so just of this [TS]

01:02:58   Twitter thread which I tried desperately [TS]

01:02:59   to find a service that can like there's [TS]

01:03:00   a million like show with Twitter thread [TS]

01:03:03   websites out there and I found a whole [TS]

01:03:06   bunch of them but none of them showed [TS]

01:03:07   the complete thread probably because we [TS]

01:03:09   like we must have like had a [TS]

01:03:11   discontinuity in there where we started [TS]

01:03:12   replying to different threads so none of [TS]

01:03:14   them showed the entire thread and all of [TS]

01:03:16   them are like ugly and weird so please [TS]

01:03:18   don't send me 8,000 Twitter thread [TS]

01:03:19   things if you found one that you like [TS]

01:03:21   then go for it but you can just look [TS]

01:03:23   through I'll put this frankly tweet and [TS]

01:03:25   the original treatment Charlotte's and [TS]

01:03:26   you could find the cheyna replies the [TS]

01:03:29   last like 10 in 15 minutes and this was [TS]

01:03:30   an example of a good Twitter exchange I [TS]

01:03:32   think it probably would have been better [TS]

01:03:33   if it had gone to email but I think is [TS]

01:03:35   more entertaining to other people if [TS]

01:03:36   they want to follow in that it was going [TS]

01:03:38   on Twitter and it kept us short so I'm [TS]

01:03:40   going to summarize the beginning portion [TS]

01:03:42   of it in even shorter version Frank was [TS]

01:03:46   basically saying time investment leads [TS]

01:03:47   to skill and I was saying there's a [TS]

01:03:49   limit and that was the major the major [TS]

01:03:52   point of our disagreement was that he [TS]

01:03:54   was saying like you know they're not in [TS]

01:03:55   Gladwell 10,000 hours to gain expertise [TS]

01:03:57   blah blah blah I was obviously never not [TS]

01:04:00   saying that you don't get better when [TS]

01:04:01   you practice obviously you do but I was [TS]

01:04:04   saying that there are limits and that [TS]

01:04:05   those limits are really low for most [TS]

01:04:07   people when it comes to gaming because [TS]

01:04:08   they're not skills that most people have [TS]

01:04:09   and can't develop so that was our our [TS]

01:04:14   disagreement that he seemed to think [TS]

01:04:16   that if you practice enough anybody can [TS]

01:04:17   get really good at games and I think [TS]

01:04:19   that is not the case but [TS]

01:04:20   regardless of that disagreement like [TS]

01:04:21   even ignore who was right in that debate [TS]

01:04:23   the meta point I made after I realized [TS]

01:04:25   that was our disagreement was like it's [TS]

01:04:27   moot because if people won't invest the [TS]

01:04:30   time to practice it still results in the [TS]

01:04:32   same thing the majority the population [TS]

01:04:34   not having the skills to enjoy games and [TS]

01:04:37   is it because they can't get the skills [TS]

01:04:39   or because they're not engaged enough or [TS]

01:04:41   because they're put off by their their [TS]

01:04:43   lack of expertise in to begin with or [TS]

01:04:44   because they don't know what their [TS]

01:04:45   whatever the reason they either can't [TS]

01:04:48   gain them or won't gain them the end [TS]

01:04:49   result is the same [TS]

01:04:50   most of the population can appreciate [TS]

01:04:51   these what we think are the best that [TS]

01:04:53   this medium has to offer America gone on [TS]

01:04:58   Twitter pointed out that opera is kind [TS]

01:05:01   of like that and because you know if [TS]

01:05:04   you're if you don't have a knife you [TS]

01:05:06   don't understand what they're saying you [TS]

01:05:07   don't know the foreign language in that [TS]

01:05:08   then you can't really appreciate opera [TS]

01:05:10   and I think that probably applies to all [TS]

01:05:13   foreign language art not that it's the [TS]

01:05:14   art form itself but it's the fact that [TS]

01:05:16   it's in a foreign language you know [TS]

01:05:17   foreign movies have subtitles but you're [TS]

01:05:19   kind of missing some of the cultural [TS]

01:05:20   stuff but really any any art created in [TS]

01:05:22   a foreign society is in a different [TS]

01:05:23   language or in a different culture than [TS]

01:05:25   you are there is necessarily a knowledge [TS]

01:05:27   barrier to you fully appreciate not so [TS]

01:05:28   much a skill barrier in terms of [TS]

01:05:30   physical skill but there's definitely a [TS]

01:05:32   barrier there and that I think is the [TS]

01:05:34   closest I've seen as in a commonplace [TS]

01:05:36   example of art being not able to be [TS]

01:05:41   appreciated by people because of [TS]

01:05:43   something close to a skill or knowledge [TS]

01:05:45   that they don't have so and I would just [TS]

01:05:47   lump all four and stuff under that but [TS]

01:05:49   finally we'll get to the main point that [TS]

01:05:52   upon listening to myself I immediately [TS]

01:05:53   realized and then eight billion people [TS]

01:05:55   emailed me and tweeted me about this [TS]

01:05:59   distinction that I guess I was kind of [TS]

01:06:00   making implicitly but doesn't matter if [TS]

01:06:02   I make it implicitly if I don't actually [TS]

01:06:03   say it because this is an audio medium [TS]

01:06:05   the distinction not versus art and not [TS]

01:06:08   art but participant versus the observer [TS]

01:06:11   producer versus consumer many people [TS]

01:06:13   wrote in to give examples of other types [TS]

01:06:17   of things they thought were either [TS]

01:06:18   counter-examples or support for my [TS]

01:06:21   statements about games and a lot of them [TS]

01:06:23   made this name same mistake I did of not [TS]

01:06:25   distinguishing correctly between the [TS]

01:06:27   person creating the art and the person [TS]

01:06:29   consuming the art and I thought that was [TS]

01:06:30   key to what I was talking about here is [TS]

01:06:32   a blog post by [TS]

01:06:34   Jonathan do gak do D ug e C which says [TS]

01:06:38   everything that I'm about to say but in [TS]

01:06:40   a much better manner so I will put it in [TS]

01:06:41   the show notes and you can read it let's [TS]

01:06:45   see if I've got a portion I can read [TS]

01:06:46   here so the type of gaming that [TS]

01:06:51   enthusiasts engage in is as opposed to [TS]

01:06:54   casual games is interesting in that it [TS]

01:06:56   is a participatory pastime there is [TS]

01:06:58   perhaps no division between participants [TS]

01:07:00   those who play and consumers those who [TS]

01:07:01   consume because necessarily consumption [TS]

01:07:04   is participation in this instance it is [TS]

01:07:07   the ability to participate the necessary [TS]

01:07:08   physical skills to fully enjoy journey [TS]

01:07:10   that are the barriers to entry here this [TS]

01:07:12   is a fairly unique proposition for a [TS]

01:07:13   pastime particularly one as creative as [TS]

01:07:14   video games it may have the effect of [TS]

01:07:16   ensuring that gaming is never [TS]

01:07:17   legitimized by the cultural [TS]

01:07:19   establishment is more than a simply [TS]

01:07:20   frivolous pastime this is disappointing [TS]

01:07:22   for fans of creative video games so this [TS]

01:07:26   this distinction many people will bring [TS]

01:07:28   up things like music or like all you [TS]

01:07:30   need physical skills to to play music [TS]

01:07:32   and music is an art and therefore it's [TS]

01:07:34   exactly the same thing the big [TS]

01:07:37   distinction here is that playing music [TS]

01:07:40   and composing music is difficult [TS]

01:07:42   creating art is almost always difficult [TS]

01:07:44   create crew the creation process of [TS]

01:07:46   course is difficult the weird thing [TS]

01:07:48   about gaming is that consumption is [TS]

01:07:50   difficult so it's super hard to write a [TS]

01:07:53   symphony or to play an instrument [TS]

01:07:54   masterfully right but to listen to that [TS]

01:07:56   music you sit in the room with your ears [TS]

01:07:58   open and you listen and almost everyone [TS]

01:08:00   can appreciate music babies little [TS]

01:08:01   babies and toddlers sway their little [TS]

01:08:03   bodies to the music it's like not you [TS]

01:08:05   know it's it's as an innate as you can [TS]

01:08:07   get appreciating music so yes of course [TS]

01:08:09   creating music step of creating hands is [TS]

01:08:12   typical creating photography writing [TS]

01:08:14   everything the creation act is always [TS]

01:08:15   hard the gaming is weird because to [TS]

01:08:18   consume it you are also partially [TS]

01:08:20   participating and that's the one of the [TS]

01:08:24   you know that that distinguishes games [TS]

01:08:26   from these other media that people think [TS]

01:08:28   are analogous because you are not [TS]

01:08:30   creating music by listening to it you [TS]

01:08:31   are not creating a movie about watching [TS]

01:08:33   it right you are not creating a novel by [TS]

01:08:35   reading it and the participation [TS]

01:08:36   required of you there's a low skill [TS]

01:08:38   barrier listening to music and enjoying [TS]

01:08:41   it that's not you know that's [TS]

01:08:42   practically something that's innate [TS]

01:08:44   almost as close as you can get right [TS]

01:08:45   watch [TS]

01:08:46   movie it helps to have that cultural [TS]

01:08:48   background the knowledge and everything [TS]

01:08:49   but there's no skill factor really in [TS]

01:08:51   terms of watching better I did make this [TS]

01:08:53   point in the very first episode about [TS]

01:08:54   this and music is the same way so [TS]

01:08:57   Jonathan goes on to say there are no [TS]

01:08:59   simple consumers of creative video games [TS]

01:09:01   what is unusual about video games is the [TS]

01:09:03   drive from the audience and the industry [TS]

01:09:05   to legitimate for the genome ization is [TS]

01:09:06   a art form [TS]

01:09:07   Tenace had never attempted to legitimize [TS]

01:09:09   itself as high art and is perceived as [TS]

01:09:11   it is a participant in that sport [TS]

01:09:12   tracted consumers in the form of the [TS]

01:09:14   audience video games seem to be [TS]

01:09:16   relatively unique in that there are [TS]

01:09:18   participatory activity seeking to be [TS]

01:09:20   legitimize it's an art form so I'm going [TS]

01:09:22   to talk more about legitimization in art [TS]

01:09:24   forms a little bit later but this [TS]

01:09:27   distinction between producer and [TS]

01:09:28   consumer participant and creator is I [TS]

01:09:32   think key to understanding what's going [TS]

01:09:34   on here because there are no simple [TS]

01:09:36   consumers of video games you must [TS]

01:09:37   participate in the and that's why I was [TS]

01:09:40   trying to get last time with like the [TS]

01:09:41   two-way communication between the [TS]

01:09:42   original creator of the game and the [TS]

01:09:44   player they are communicating over time [TS]

01:09:46   to help create this thing and it's not [TS]

01:09:48   completely performance art and the [TS]

01:09:49   player isn't creating the game the game [TS]

01:09:51   was created for him but there's a [TS]

01:09:52   necessary participation participation [TS]

01:09:54   element that requires skill and yes [TS]

01:09:57   knowledge and experience like many other [TS]

01:09:58   things to do that that it's like a [TS]

01:10:01   barrier to consumption there and Adam [TS]

01:10:04   drew had another email instead of blog [TS]

01:10:06   post about the same thing classic gaming [TS]

01:10:08   is not a form of art consumption is a [TS]

01:10:10   form of art performance the player does [TS]

01:10:12   not consume the art of the game he or [TS]

01:10:14   she performs it and again I think [TS]

01:10:15   there's a lotta mungus component of that [TS]

01:10:17   that's done by the Creator you're not [TS]

01:10:19   really performing it the same way as you [TS]

01:10:22   were I think it's even different like [TS]

01:10:23   say oh the composer writes the symphony [TS]

01:10:25   and then a musician performs it and then [TS]

01:10:27   the people listen well it's still [TS]

01:10:29   different than that because the composer [TS]

01:10:31   in that analogy is the person who [TS]

01:10:32   created the game but the player doesn't [TS]

01:10:34   just perform the game like you're not [TS]

01:10:36   following a series of instructions and [TS]

01:10:38   doing what the composer said and yes [TS]

01:10:39   this plenty of room for variation and [TS]

01:10:41   playing style stuff like that but the [TS]

01:10:42   variation in gameplay you can do things [TS]

01:10:45   that the original creator of the game [TS]

01:10:48   didn't intend at all like that's the [TS]

01:10:49   beauty of gaming that you are it's not a [TS]

01:10:52   direct type of thing where I make the [TS]

01:10:55   game you play the game you do exactly [TS]

01:10:56   what I wanted with variations in style [TS]

01:10:58   or whatever you want it's not what it's [TS]

01:11:00   like it's much [TS]

01:11:00   more much more variation between the you [TS]

01:11:03   know the game that was created and the [TS]

01:11:05   way the player experiences it and also [TS]

01:11:08   the person who's playing the game who's [TS]

01:11:10   consumed he's also the consumer you say [TS]

01:11:12   well what if someone's watching him it's [TS]

01:11:13   not like the music listener [TS]

01:11:14   it's like someone writes a symphony [TS]

01:11:16   someone plays it and some dude listens [TS]

01:11:17   to the symphony in gaming the person [TS]

01:11:20   listening and the person playing are the [TS]

01:11:21   same and again I don't think the person [TS]

01:11:23   playing is simply carrying out the [TS]

01:11:25   instructions of the game creator far [TS]

01:11:27   from it that's not what gaming is like [TS]

01:11:28   it's not what gaming is about and then [TS]

01:11:30   the more games get towards that more [TS]

01:11:31   people tend not to like them it's being [TS]

01:11:33   just like oh I'm just basically pressing [TS]

01:11:36   a bunch of buttons to make a movie play [TS]

01:11:37   in front of me using computer graphics [TS]

01:11:40   characters instead of you know [TS]

01:11:41   pre-rendered things that's not what [TS]

01:11:43   gaming is about let's see we're gonna go [TS]

01:11:48   so he makes another good analogy here [TS]

01:11:49   the reason I included is that he says [TS]

01:11:51   the emergence of recording artists and [TS]

01:11:52   their much wider mark ability with a [TS]

01:11:54   double-edged sword for music it was [TS]

01:11:55   great that music got a larger exposure [TS]

01:11:57   and that people can make a boatload of [TS]

01:11:58   money for music but it also replaced [TS]

01:12:00   learning playing and performing music as [TS]

01:12:01   a prior previously primary vehicles for [TS]

01:12:05   music appreciation so he's making the [TS]

01:12:08   comparison between like you know back [TS]

01:12:10   before we had record players and radio [TS]

01:12:12   and stuff like that the way people [TS]

01:12:14   experience music was they had to learn [TS]

01:12:15   how to play it but I think music music [TS]

01:12:18   had a barrier to distribution which led [TS]

01:12:21   to people having to learn how to play [TS]

01:12:22   because if you couldn't where could you [TS]

01:12:24   get music there was no radio there was [TS]

01:12:26   no record store if you wanted to have [TS]

01:12:28   music someone in your village or [TS]

01:12:30   whatever had to know how to play right [TS]

01:12:32   and this again definite skill barrier to [TS]

01:12:36   production if you want to have music in [TS]

01:12:37   your home someone in your families got [TS]

01:12:38   to learn how to play there's a huge [TS]

01:12:39   skill barrier to doing that like all art [TS]

01:12:41   forms but the consumers still had no [TS]

01:12:43   skill barrier you go down to the pub and [TS]

01:12:45   you listen you didn't know have to know [TS]

01:12:46   how to play if your dad knew how to play [TS]

01:12:48   the fiddle you sit there and you listen [TS]

01:12:49   right no skill barrier to consumption [TS]

01:12:51   and a clear pretty clear separation [TS]

01:12:53   between consumption and creation and the [TS]

01:12:55   idea of performance that's kind of what [TS]

01:12:58   they were getting at and the are things [TS]

01:12:59   like performance I don't think it's the [TS]

01:13:01   same as performing a play or performing [TS]

01:13:03   a piece of music I think it's much [TS]

01:13:05   there's much greater variation in that [TS]

01:13:08   and the creative act is not the same as [TS]

01:13:10   writing a book writing a play or [TS]

01:13:12   composing a song but [TS]

01:13:13   and I also think the consumer is also [TS]

01:13:15   the person doing the performance so it [TS]

01:13:16   is weird in many different ways but this [TS]

01:13:18   this distinction is important between [TS]

01:13:21   producer consumer performer and how [TS]

01:13:23   those blend and combine and who takes [TS]

01:13:25   what roles in the creative process let's [TS]

01:13:31   see more on participation casual games [TS]

01:13:34   uh I'll read this part here it's the [TS]

01:13:36   last part from true in my view the [TS]

01:13:38   emergence of modern casual games is [TS]

01:13:40   directly analogous to the emergence of [TS]

01:13:41   recording artists in the early to mid [TS]

01:13:42   20th century as the art form is matured [TS]

01:13:45   and the devices that can play them have [TS]

01:13:46   become more ubiquitous the audience of [TS]

01:13:48   people who appreciate facets of gaming [TS]

01:13:49   such as the fun graphic sense of reward [TS]

01:13:51   bragging rights and things of that [TS]

01:13:52   nature has increased [TS]

01:13:53   however the pool of people people with [TS]

01:13:55   skill to play games has not so he's [TS]

01:13:58   comparing casual games to like well [TS]

01:14:00   casual games or equivalent to the people [TS]

01:14:01   who just listen to pre-recorded music [TS]

01:14:02   whereas the hardcore gamers are the [TS]

01:14:04   people who would learn how to play I [TS]

01:14:05   think this is again I think this is an [TS]

01:14:07   imperfect analogy but it's interesting [TS]

01:14:11   in that it it does echo the [TS]

01:14:13   marginalization of the people who are of [TS]

01:14:16   the people with skills in favor of the [TS]

01:14:19   people with lesser skills it doesn't it [TS]

01:14:20   like the broadening the base of music [TS]

01:14:22   making more people be able to get it [TS]

01:14:24   music he's saying has similar to has not [TS]

01:14:28   isn't that has made everyone into music [TS]

01:14:29   players so hey now everyone listen to [TS]

01:14:31   the radio everyone will know how to play [TS]

01:14:32   that's not how it works people will just [TS]

01:14:33   consume it by listening they will not [TS]

01:14:36   all go out and learn as anything about [TS]

01:14:38   lessen the number of people who need to [TS]

01:14:39   learn how to play and so as gaming has [TS]

01:14:41   become popular it's saying the pool of [TS]

01:14:44   people with skills to play games has not [TS]

01:14:45   broadened I think it has broaden [TS]

01:14:47   tremendously simply from exposure but [TS]

01:14:48   it's still a vanishingly small [TS]

01:14:49   percentage of the total people who play [TS]

01:14:51   Angry Birds or whatever so finally I [TS]

01:14:58   think it's the end of the game thing on [TS]

01:14:59   God's it goes on forever games as art [TS]

01:15:01   this is something that I mentioned the [TS]

01:15:05   way we started heard about in the [TS]

01:15:06   previous letter and a couple people [TS]

01:15:07   wrote in to ask me about David she was [TS]

01:15:11   right saying to say one thing that [TS]

01:15:13   interests me greatly is why so many [TS]

01:15:14   gamers seem to feel the need to defend [TS]

01:15:15   games as being art I'm not sure what the [TS]

01:15:17   goal is here is it being labeled as art [TS]

01:15:20   somehow give games a magic shield or [TS]

01:15:22   invulnerability from criticism [TS]

01:15:24   you know what why why is it that gamers [TS]

01:15:27   want games to be known as art and a past [TS]

01:15:30   show I mentioned that I just thought [TS]

01:15:33   that they were and that wasn't something [TS]

01:15:35   I wanted to talk about but I think it's [TS]

01:15:38   worth discussing as people keep bringing [TS]

01:15:39   it up I think the you know why why the [TS]

01:15:44   gamers feel the need to defend games as [TS]

01:15:46   being art it's mostly defensive I think [TS]

01:15:48   it's not something that I ever saw [TS]

01:15:50   offered by gamers like they weren't [TS]

01:15:52   promoting it until there was an attack [TS]

01:15:55   until many people would say the games [TS]

01:15:57   aren't hard so it's a reaction to people [TS]

01:16:00   trying to belittle gaming and obviously [TS]

01:16:02   the reaction of gamers to people trying [TS]

01:16:04   to blow gaming is to defend so it's [TS]

01:16:05   entirely defensive in my view and why [TS]

01:16:08   are they defending why do they even care [TS]

01:16:10   well gamers want other people to [TS]

01:16:12   experience what they experience but [TS]

01:16:14   gaming they know gaming has like the [TS]

01:16:16   stigma as a time waster and a frivolous [TS]

01:16:19   thing and they think it's great and [TS]

01:16:21   maybe no one will say anything until [TS]

01:16:23   that until someone comes out and says oh [TS]

01:16:24   well you know games are not art and are [TS]

01:16:27   to something good and and something with [TS]

01:16:30   not art is lesser and we are now saying [TS]

01:16:32   that games will always be stupid time [TS]

01:16:34   wasters and they're not a worthwhile [TS]

01:16:35   pursuit and then gamers get upset about [TS]

01:16:36   that as many people who wrote in and [TS]

01:16:40   many people who have debated this online [TS]

01:16:41   and stuff have pointed out people said [TS]

01:16:43   the same thing about the novel now you [TS]

01:16:45   know this it's a silly time waster [TS]

01:16:46   Mitchell Cohen wrote in to give me a his [TS]

01:16:50   passage here is the first 18th century [TS]

01:16:52   novels were stigmatized as trifling [TS]

01:16:54   indulgences for idle women since their [TS]

01:16:56   contents were fictional and therefore [TS]

01:16:57   have no use to working adults and there [TS]

01:16:59   are many things you can google for the [TS]

01:17:00   things that we said about novels because [TS]

01:17:02   it just seemed like garbage words today [TS]

01:17:03   novels are like oh my child is reading [TS]

01:17:05   books isn't that wonderful [TS]

01:17:06   no one says what he's reading fiction [TS]

01:17:07   that trash he needs to get out and plow [TS]

01:17:10   the fields I don't know what they wanted [TS]

01:17:11   to do instead of I guess read nonfiction [TS]

01:17:12   or you know learn about fake science so [TS]

01:17:18   it's kind of natural for any new medium [TS]

01:17:22   to go through this thing where people [TS]

01:17:24   say it's not worthwhile it's it's it [TS]

01:17:26   rots your brain it's not a worthy [TS]

01:17:28   intellectual pursuit it's not hard or [TS]

01:17:29   whatever and videogames are new mediums [TS]

01:17:31   so I think you have to expect this now [TS]

01:17:34   Roger Morgan wrote in to say [TS]

01:17:37   I have to take issue with the way you [TS]

01:17:38   begged the question regarding the notion [TS]

01:17:40   of video games that video games are an [TS]

01:17:42   artform [TS]

01:17:42   perhaps they are but you simply asserted [TS]

01:17:44   this and then drew conclusion based on [TS]

01:17:46   that assertion [TS]

01:17:46   so Roger Morgan is probably very proud [TS]

01:17:49   of himself for successfully using beg [TS]

01:17:51   the question which is very rare in the [TS]

01:17:53   internet the wrong way for people who [TS]

01:17:56   don't know that they use it as they use [TS]

01:17:57   it to mean which leads me to ask the [TS]

01:17:59   question so you know this begs the [TS]

01:18:01   question that bla bla bla what you're [TS]

01:18:02   trying to say is this leads me to ask [TS]

01:18:04   the question XY and Z but that's not [TS]

01:18:06   what beg the question actually means I [TS]

01:18:07   put a link to the Wikipedia page of [TS]

01:18:09   course and the show notes about this the [TS]

01:18:11   little summer here is begging the [TS]

01:18:13   question is a type of logical fallacy in [TS]

01:18:14   which a proposition is made that uses [TS]

01:18:17   its own premise as proof of the [TS]

01:18:18   proposition so despite Roger using the [TS]

01:18:23   phrase correctly I don't think it [TS]

01:18:25   applies to what I was talking about [TS]

01:18:26   because I was using games as art as a [TS]

01:18:29   premise and sort of if you accept the [TS]

01:18:32   games that art then I say the games have [TS]

01:18:35   an odd characteristic most found not [TS]

01:18:37   found in most other forms of art it's [TS]

01:18:39   not like games art was being used to [TS]

01:18:41   support the proposition the games have a [TS]

01:18:43   skill barrier consumption right it was [TS]

01:18:45   the premise and yet you can reject the [TS]

01:18:47   premise and then you don't you know you [TS]

01:18:48   don't agree with me that's fine but it [TS]

01:18:49   wasn't them being art was not used to [TS]

01:18:51   support my proposition that there's a [TS]

01:18:53   skill barrier to consumption that there [TS]

01:18:54   are among art forms so I I would say [TS]

01:18:58   that that is correct use of the phrase [TS]

01:18:59   but not entirely applicable but on the [TS]

01:19:03   substance of what were you saying oh he [TS]

01:19:08   says he says he's neutral on this topic [TS]

01:19:09   having never having been particularly [TS]

01:19:11   drawn to these games I would be [TS]

01:19:12   generally interested to know how you [TS]

01:19:13   come to the conclusion that they're an [TS]

01:19:15   art form are you talking from the [TS]

01:19:17   creative perspective of the players [TS]

01:19:18   would love to hear the reasoning on the [TS]

01:19:23   internet and on podcast I have not been [TS]

01:19:25   particularly interested in defending [TS]

01:19:27   this premise that I have like I [TS]

01:19:29   mentioned it just offhand last oh that [TS]

01:19:31   but I do strongly believe that they are [TS]

01:19:32   art but really the reason it's not an [TS]

01:19:34   interesting debate to me because it's [TS]

01:19:36   its semantics it's not games are art [TS]

01:19:39   it's really my definition of art either [TS]

01:19:42   includes or excludes games because games [TS]

01:19:43   are what they are right and so all [TS]

01:19:45   you're really debating is what your [TS]

01:19:47   definitions of art are so lots of people [TS]

01:19:48   are say well my definition art [TS]

01:19:50   doesn't include games and here's why and [TS]

01:19:51   other people say well my definition does [TS]

01:19:53   include and you just debate forever [TS]

01:19:54   about your definitions of art doesn't [TS]

01:19:55   change what games are my definition of [TS]

01:19:57   art includes games if yours doesn't then [TS]

01:19:59   you know fine if we can agree on the [TS]

01:20:01   definition then we can have a debate [TS]

01:20:03   about whether games qualify but always [TS]

01:20:05   the debate is the other way people are [TS]

01:20:06   just shifting around their definitions [TS]

01:20:08   to conform to what they wanted not [TS]

01:20:09   saying before we begin a debate we would [TS]

01:20:11   agree we agree that this is our and then [TS]

01:20:13   we can argue about whether games call [TS]

01:20:14   your saying you need you need a [TS]

01:20:16   definition of art to begin with before [TS]

01:20:20   you can even engage in a debate with [TS]

01:20:21   these people you just have that first [TS]

01:20:24   agreement as a presupposition yeah [TS]

01:20:27   otherwise yours goalposts moving the [TS]

01:20:28   whole time all you're doing is just [TS]

01:20:29   shifting around your definition like [TS]

01:20:31   that you see that in all the time of [TS]

01:20:32   mostly for the people who are like [TS]

01:20:34   obviously I'm reading I'm reading the [TS]

01:20:35   ones where the people who are saying [TS]

01:20:37   it's not art or getting trashed right so [TS]

01:20:39   they'll they'll say games are not art [TS]

01:20:40   because art has to XY and Z and then 50 [TS]

01:20:43   gamers who write in and say well here [TS]

01:20:44   these games do XY and Z and they'll say [TS]

01:20:46   well also art has to do PQ and X and [TS]

01:20:48   like it's just constant back and forth [TS]

01:20:50   they keep changing the definition [TS]

01:20:51   because every they'll make a definition [TS]

01:20:52   they're like well you know art has to [TS]

01:20:55   evoke emotional reaction this is [TS]

01:20:57   obviously made up right this is a silly [TS]

01:20:59   example art has to emotion emotional [TS]

01:21:00   reaction games cannot evoke emotion [TS]

01:21:02   reaction therefore games are not art and [TS]

01:21:04   so dudes write in and say I cried when [TS]

01:21:05   I'm playing this game correct right and [TS]

01:21:08   then they say well but art also has to [TS]

01:21:10   do and they just keep changing you know [TS]

01:21:12   you just shifting the goalposts [TS]

01:21:13   constantly that's the way many internet [TS]

01:21:14   debates go and so those were silly [TS]

01:21:16   examples but that's what I see a lot of [TS]

01:21:18   and it's like if they coming to an [TS]

01:21:21   agreement about what art is is almost as [TS]

01:21:23   difficult about coming to agreement [TS]

01:21:24   about what life is and I find the life [TS]

01:21:26   one much more interesting because I know [TS]

01:21:27   so much less about biology actually I [TS]

01:21:29   wish I had a link to this but this some [TS]

01:21:30   good articles in recent years about the [TS]

01:21:35   increasing realization among scientists [TS]

01:21:36   that there is no reasonable definition [TS]

01:21:38   of what life is because every time you [TS]

01:21:41   try to define it like there's some [TS]

01:21:42   exception is found and it eventually [TS]

01:21:43   it's like life there's no such thing as [TS]

01:21:45   life you know you the definitions are [TS]

01:21:47   broad now that it encompasses everything [TS]

01:21:48   it's impossible to exclude anything [TS]

01:21:51   because we keep finding counter examples [TS]

01:21:52   and so what the hell is life it makes no [TS]

01:21:55   sense I always like things like that but [TS]

01:21:58   for art I bet there probably is a [TS]

01:22:00   definition but if you're going to debate [TS]

01:22:01   with somebody about whether games are [TS]

01:22:02   not you have [TS]

01:22:03   in that definition and that's I think [TS]

01:22:05   where I would end because my definition [TS]

01:22:06   totally necessarily includes it and they [TS]

01:22:09   would not agree to my definition and so [TS]

01:22:10   debate over so I'm not particularly [TS]

01:22:12   interested in defending it I would just [TS]

01:22:15   say that I think games are worthwhile [TS]

01:22:17   are worthy of your investment of time [TS]

01:22:20   and an effort and emotion and everything [TS]

01:22:25   and they're as worthy as any form of art [TS]

01:22:27   whether you think games are art or not I [TS]

01:22:29   think they are among the most worthy [TS]

01:22:31   thing you could possibly do with your [TS]

01:22:32   time for entertainment purposes and [TS]

01:22:36   that's that's the point I would try to [TS]

01:22:38   get across to somebody no I wouldn't try [TS]

01:22:39   to convince them the games or I would [TS]

01:22:40   try to convince into the games or [TS]

01:22:41   something that it should be part of [TS]

01:22:42   their life in some way because they're [TS]

01:22:44   worthwhile and they can decide what they [TS]

01:22:45   think about them right so the end of [TS]

01:22:49   this thing from Roger it says people who [TS]

01:22:51   enjoy football aren't clamoring to find [TS]

01:22:52   legitimacy by being described as art [TS]

01:22:54   reality TV shows don't seem to feel the [TS]

01:22:56   need to define themselves at art so why [TS]

01:22:57   is it such a preoccupation with gamers [TS]

01:22:58   does it makes games any less enjoyable [TS]

01:23:00   unless the gym if there aren't art again [TS]

01:23:02   I don't think it's a preoccupation with [TS]

01:23:03   gamers until they were attacked I think [TS]

01:23:06   a lot of people in TV industry would be [TS]

01:23:07   really upset and vocal if a well-known [TS]

01:23:10   movie critic publicly proclaimed it like [TS]

01:23:11   TV shows can never be art if there was [TS]

01:23:15   some sort of critic and are some sort of [TS]

01:23:16   person in another industry or someone in [TS]

01:23:18   theater that says theater is our but [TS]

01:23:20   television shows can never be our not [TS]

01:23:22   like a particular reality show is not [TS]

01:23:24   art not the new Housewives of whatever [TS]

01:23:26   County is not our but TV shows can never [TS]

01:23:29   be art if anyone who had any sort of [TS]

01:23:32   public platform came out to say that [TS]

01:23:33   especially with someone associated with [TS]

01:23:35   another medium like theater or something [TS]

01:23:36   all right you pick the people all of a [TS]

01:23:39   sudden you'd be hearing all these TV [TS]

01:23:40   shows and then people saying why are [TS]

01:23:41   these TV people also preoccupied but [TS]

01:23:43   they're considering their medium art [TS]

01:23:44   what are they trying to prove because [TS]

01:23:46   they were just working under the [TS]

01:23:47   assumption like gamers were that of [TS]

01:23:49   course television shows can be are like [TS]

01:23:51   there's no exclusion of course they can [TS]

01:23:52   and it was just that you never heard [TS]

01:23:54   them talk about it because like duh like [TS]

01:23:56   the same way gamers pretty much also of [TS]

01:23:58   course get games art you know like is [TS]

01:23:59   that a debate until someone comes out [TS]

01:24:01   and says games as a concept can never be [TS]

01:24:04   art and then you get a lot of crankiness [TS]

01:24:05   so I think it is defensive it's not [TS]

01:24:07   offensive they're not you know they're [TS]

01:24:09   not out trying to evangelize games as [TS]

01:24:11   art but when someone starts crapping on [TS]

01:24:13   them and saying it's not you would see [TS]

01:24:14   exactly the same thing in any other [TS]

01:24:16   media [TS]

01:24:17   if you all say well of course TV shows [TS]

01:24:19   actually are that's why they were [TS]

01:24:20   complain but games aren't yeah well you [TS]

01:24:22   see how it goes one final one in games [TS]

01:24:25   and then we'll probably the cap this [TS]

01:24:27   will say let's do our final sponsor then [TS]

01:24:30   oh you got three two they only have [TS]

01:24:31   three go for it because when the shows [TS]

01:24:34   get longer you know we've got a we've [TS]

01:24:37   got to subsidize the cost because every [TS]

01:24:40   second that I talk is another 13 cents [TS]

01:24:42   83 minutes 43 seconds so far yeah and [TS]

01:24:46   the hard drive can only handle another [TS]

01:24:49   318 so alright squarespace.com they just [TS]

01:24:55   added self foot so first of all what is [TS]

01:24:56   Squarespace because there there are [TS]

01:24:58   probably a few people who don't know [TS]

01:24:59   it's everything you need to create an [TS]

01:25:01   amazing website they do the hosting of [TS]

01:25:03   it they scale it when you get a lot of [TS]

01:25:05   traffic they have a really really great [TS]

01:25:08   analytics and they have 24/7 support in [TS]

01:25:10   case you run into trouble I've got [TS]

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01:25:20   single element or you can just [TS]

01:25:23   completely customize it on your own it [TS]

01:25:25   has the integration with all the social [TS]

01:25:27   tools that you like to use but here's [TS]

01:25:29   the big thing this is the big news they [TS]

01:25:32   now have free custom domain names this [TS]

01:25:37   free if you sign up for a year with them [TS]

01:25:40   if you don't sign up for a year it's a [TS]

01:25:42   it's not free but they register it all [TS]

01:25:44   in one one step so you go in there [TS]

01:25:48   you've never used Squarespace before you [TS]

01:25:51   sign up you create your account and you [TS]

01:25:54   register the domain name it takes [TS]

01:25:56   minutes and you have a full-fledged site [TS]

01:25:58   up and running you don't have to go to [TS]

01:25:59   separate registrar you don't have to do [TS]

01:26:01   it it's all integrated it's all right [TS]

01:26:03   there and it's free if you sign up for [TS]

01:26:06   their one-year thing that you don't have [TS]

01:26:07   to you can go month-to-month with them [TS]

01:26:09   it's ten bucks a month if you do that if [TS]

01:26:11   you sign up for a year it goes down to [TS]

01:26:12   eight bucks a month you get the free [TS]

01:26:14   domain and if you use the coupon code [TS]

01:26:16   and sent me five the number five Dan [TS]

01:26:18   sent me number five you get an [TS]

01:26:21   additional ten percent off so if you [TS]

01:26:23   just wanna go month-to-month then you [TS]

01:26:24   get ten percent off you go for a year [TS]

01:26:26   you get the domain you get eight bucks a [TS]

01:26:29   month and then you apply the domain [TS]

01:26:30   the coupon code on top it's a pretty [TS]

01:26:33   good deal these guys are really great [TS]

01:26:35   squarespace.com I'm moving as much as I [TS]

01:26:39   can over them because I'm just I'm tired [TS]

01:26:41   of dealing with hosting stuff myself I [TS]

01:26:43   don't have to it's all going their [TS]

01:26:45   squarespace.com Dan sent me five it's [TS]

01:26:47   all you need to know they should do like [TS]

01:26:50   that one of those late-night TV [TS]

01:26:51   infomercial or commercial things where [TS]

01:26:53   there's only some device they want you [TS]

01:26:55   to buy like that takes the shell off an [TS]

01:26:56   egg or something and they show like [TS]

01:26:58   making eggs is such a pain official the [TS]

01:27:01   person trying to make eggs like the eggs [TS]

01:27:02   are in their hair and eggs are up their [TS]

01:27:04   nose right does everything as a disaster [TS]

01:27:06   and their hair is all frazzled they they [TS]

01:27:09   look at the camera and go ah I'm so [TS]

01:27:10   exasperated and then you see the new [TS]

01:27:12   shiny things they should it's very [TS]

01:27:14   difficult to show the frustration of bad [TS]

01:27:16   hosting on television but if they can [TS]

01:27:18   pull it off yeah right [TS]

01:27:21   when John reminds me that the fallacy I [TS]

01:27:24   was trying to get out before with the [TS]

01:27:25   the goalposts moving is the no truth no [TS]

01:27:27   true Scotsman thing I should put that in [TS]

01:27:29   the show notes to people who don't know [TS]

01:27:31   what that is they can google it TV in [TS]

01:27:35   the chatroom is saying that uh the games [TS]

01:27:38   is our thing has gone way beyond [TS]

01:27:39   defensiveness I would say yes it's a [TS]

01:27:41   counter-attack at this point and I think [TS]

01:27:43   it's kind of a wake-up call because [TS]

01:27:44   again you don't see television show [TS]

01:27:46   people producers a television show out [TS]

01:27:48   there evangelizing the fact that [TS]

01:27:50   television shows there are and why [TS]

01:27:52   didn't you see that because no one is [TS]

01:27:53   questioning that and like it's just an [TS]

01:27:54   assumption that we all agree on all [TS]

01:27:56   right not that all TV shows are art but [TS]

01:27:57   that TV shows can be art like that it is [TS]

01:27:59   possible that it is not excluded [TS]

01:28:01   categorically by the medium or whatever [TS]

01:28:03   right and I think gamers and gaming was [TS]

01:28:06   in that state for a long time or like [TS]

01:28:07   was just an assumption and when it was [TS]

01:28:10   revealed that this assumption was not [TS]

01:28:11   shared by the rest of society then you [TS]

01:28:13   get the counter-attack so yeah it's [TS]

01:28:15   going to be on an offensive now for a [TS]

01:28:16   long time it's an activist type movement [TS]

01:28:18   uh but it was triggered by you know it's [TS]

01:28:22   it's defensive in origin like everyone [TS]

01:28:24   gamers are sitting there going light of [TS]

01:28:25   course this games just like the TV [TS]

01:28:26   people are now so that's what I feel [TS]

01:28:29   about that oh so someone suggested by [TS]

01:28:33   the way and so probably being the show [TS]

01:28:35   things the Housewives for Syracuse [TS]

01:28:37   accounting I don't know if we can double [TS]

01:28:39   up on the County thing I think we can [TS]

01:28:40   yeah I know you like it but it really is [TS]

01:28:43   totally disjoint it just happens to [TS]

01:28:44   share the structure and the names [TS]

01:28:45   because it's different you know it's [TS]

01:28:47   television show instead of movie reality [TS]

01:28:48   Bella I don't we'll see how I feel I [TS]

01:28:50   like it so here's one from another game [TS]

01:28:54   ol gamer Michael O'Hara no apostrophe no [TS]

01:28:56   space capital L capital H it does sound [TS]

01:28:59   like a real name though yeah says I was [TS]

01:29:02   really into games like Miss driven and [TS]

01:29:04   such I certainly believe that my [TS]

01:29:05   methodical troubleshooting nature helped [TS]

01:29:06   me develop very high skills to play [TS]

01:29:08   these types of games I watched a number [TS]

01:29:10   of people in my crowd who just couldn't [TS]

01:29:11   get how to do these kinds of things you [TS]

01:29:12   describe in today's games like moving [TS]

01:29:14   around visual acuity shortcuts etc and [TS]

01:29:17   this inclusion is some of us can be very [TS]

01:29:18   skilled indeed with the complex [TS]

01:29:19   difficult games just not the kind of [TS]

01:29:21   games you're talking about this is [TS]

01:29:22   definitely true there is a whole other [TS]

01:29:23   category of games which as many people [TS]

01:29:26   are said about has become much less [TS]

01:29:27   popular but the kind of games where the [TS]

01:29:29   skill barrier it it to entry is not [TS]

01:29:32   about physical hand-eye coordination so [TS]

01:29:35   much as puzzle solving and problem [TS]

01:29:39   solving like it used to be that that was [TS]

01:29:41   a whole very popular genre of game Myst [TS]

01:29:43   yeah or the you know the Sierra Tex the [TS]

01:29:47   Sierra graphical adventures oh sure [TS]

01:29:48   stuff and before that the text adventure [TS]

01:29:50   games where you were being faced with [TS]

01:29:53   basically brain teaser type puzzles of [TS]

01:29:55   varying levels of fairness there's a [TS]

01:29:56   good incomparable podcast about text [TS]

01:29:58   adventures that people should find that [TS]

01:29:59   they're interested uh you played Ultima [TS]

01:30:02   right no I did not play Ultima well I [TS]

01:30:05   might've sidesaddle played that I [TS]

01:30:07   remember I had a Mac so any game that [TS]

01:30:09   was only available on a PC I have to [TS]

01:30:10   watch my friend play over his house or [TS]

01:30:12   help him play but I don't think really [TS]

01:30:13   got into Ultima we did I the beholder [TS]

01:30:15   and a couple of SSI stuff but not Ultima [TS]

01:30:18   uh so Ultima Ultimo's a Commodore 64 [TS]

01:30:21   game well I mean I'm not saying it [TS]

01:30:24   wasn't a PC game for me the way I think [TS]

01:30:26   of it the early Altimas Commodore 64 ya [TS]

01:30:29   know I never had a c64 vic-20 yeah not [TS]

01:30:33   bad not a bad machine that's terrible ah [TS]

01:30:38   so he goes on to the Mon the current [TS]

01:30:41   state of games the games today have gone [TS]

01:30:42   on the same road gone the same Road to [TS]

01:30:44   Perdition that happens to movies movies [TS]

01:30:46   today are almost entirely about shock [TS]

01:30:47   and awe the CGI and violence scene one [TS]

01:30:50   you've probably seen most of them the [TS]

01:30:51   state of games today is the same no one [TS]

01:30:54   makes mine challenging games like Riven [TS]

01:30:56   anymore [TS]

01:30:57   they are a much smaller percentage of [TS]

01:30:59   the market that is true this type of [TS]

01:31:00   venture game is now so narrow that only [TS]

01:31:02   a few super nerds are into it and these [TS]

01:31:04   are nerds who they have a different kind [TS]

01:31:06   of skills where you put you put the [TS]

01:31:09   average person in front of like [TS]

01:31:10   Hitchhiker's Guide to the galaxy text [TS]

01:31:11   adventure they get nowhere and you could [TS]

01:31:13   say well they could get somewhere if [TS]

01:31:15   they even cared but there's no way [TS]

01:31:16   they're going to bang their head against [TS]

01:31:17   that wall because and again it's gets [TS]

01:31:18   back to can they learn that skill versus [TS]

01:31:20   will they learn it I you know the end [TS]

01:31:22   results is the same they will not finish [TS]

01:31:24   that game whether because they can or [TS]

01:31:26   never could or just simply don't want to [TS]

01:31:28   learn they won't but there are people [TS]

01:31:29   who do like these kinds of games and [TS]

01:31:31   there are there are a smaller percentage [TS]

01:31:34   of the market than they used to be I [TS]

01:31:35   agree with that so second collusion is [TS]

01:31:39   they're only making games that are 100 [TS]

01:31:40   different ways to kill no wonder as a [TS]

01:31:42   society we have a problem with men [TS]

01:31:44   desensitized to violence I would say [TS]

01:31:47   about this and about you know games like [TS]

01:31:49   Riven and as a percentage of the overall [TS]

01:31:50   gaming and games just being shocking on [TS]

01:31:53   stuff like that in the absence of any [TS]

01:31:55   kind of artificial controls any mass [TS]

01:31:57   media is going to end up with a mix of [TS]

01:31:59   content that reflects human nature and a [TS]

01:32:01   lot of people don't like that reflection [TS]

01:32:03   like I think you know if you don't have [TS]

01:32:05   any sort of controls like where there's [TS]

01:32:06   someone determining what is worthy of [TS]

01:32:07   being shown or whatever those kind of [TS]

01:32:09   artificial controls where you know some [TS]

01:32:11   powerful cabal and Hollywood decides [TS]

01:32:13   that or you know the comic book code is [TS]

01:32:15   an example from your world if they just [TS]

01:32:17   decide that there's only going to be [TS]

01:32:18   certain kind of things that they think [TS]

01:32:19   are appropriate to seeing comic books [TS]

01:32:20   and stuff like that right no vampires no [TS]

01:32:22   vampires yeah those are artificial [TS]

01:32:24   controls right but in the absence of [TS]

01:32:26   artificial controls any kind of media TV [TS]

01:32:28   books movie any kind of art form [TS]

01:32:30   painting music anything is going to be a [TS]

01:32:33   reflection of human nature [TS]

01:32:34   percentage-wise [TS]

01:32:35   and like it or not you know adolescent [TS]

01:32:40   boys like killing things and they like [TS]

01:32:42   sexy ladies and all these things that we [TS]

01:32:44   you know that intellectually we think [TS]

01:32:46   are you know Basin and not particularly [TS]

01:32:49   enlightened if you don't have some sort [TS]

01:32:52   of control forcing the media to avoid [TS]

01:32:56   the things that we think are an [TS]

01:32:57   enlightened you're going to end up with [TS]

01:32:58   that right and one of the artificial [TS]

01:33:01   controls is obscurity if a media like [TS]

01:33:04   games is obscure a lot of people don't [TS]

01:33:05   even know about don't even play it [TS]

01:33:06   there's such a small audience that is [TS]

01:33:09   not yet such a giant lucrative draw [TS]

01:33:11   that it can't be resisted right it takes [TS]

01:33:14   less willpower to produce produce [TS]

01:33:16   sophisticated games when you're not [TS]

01:33:18   foregoing a giant windfall by doing so [TS]

01:33:21   right you say well there's only like 50 [TS]

01:33:23   people in the whole world who play games [TS]

01:33:24   anyway so I don't need to make the space [TS]

01:33:27   marine you know shoot them up boob space [TS]

01:33:31   galaxy adventure game when I'm not going [TS]

01:33:34   to get any more of the market than I [TS]

01:33:35   would if I just sold like a really [TS]

01:33:37   sophisticated interesting text I'll get [TS]

01:33:38   100% of the market by selling the [TS]

01:33:40   Hitchhiker's Guide you know to text [TS]

01:33:41   adventure game for these nerds I don't [TS]

01:33:43   have to to dumb it down and make it [TS]

01:33:46   broader right uh but now the gaming is [TS]

01:33:50   widespread you it starts to become more [TS]

01:33:53   like movies become more of a reflection [TS]

01:33:55   of society as a whole percentage-wise [TS]

01:33:57   there are great movies but there are a [TS]

01:34:00   small percentage very enlightened movies [TS]

01:34:02   you know that been there movies that [TS]

01:34:03   just appeal to our baser instincts and [TS]

01:34:05   they make a lot of money and so they [TS]

01:34:06   keep getting made that's capitalism [TS]

01:34:07   right uh but all that said I think there [TS]

01:34:10   are more good games available today than [TS]

01:34:12   ever there yes they are a smaller [TS]

01:34:14   percentage of the overall thing and yes [TS]

01:34:16   is this you know the ones that get most [TS]

01:34:17   publicity and have awareness are those [TS]

01:34:20   very broad games that are not in [TS]

01:34:22   particularly sophisticated and don't [TS]

01:34:24   appeal to those you know discerning [TS]

01:34:25   gamers right that's what gets the press [TS]

01:34:27   but in terms of raw numbers I think [TS]

01:34:29   there are more great games now than [TS]

01:34:30   there ever were simply because they're [TS]

01:34:32   just more games overall so Michael [TS]

01:34:37   continues if the definition of skills is [TS]

01:34:39   simply a premium on fast reaction and [TS]

01:34:41   kill before being killed that leaves [TS]

01:34:42   behind a whole other whole lot of other [TS]

01:34:44   skills usually ones that require some [TS]

01:34:45   intelligence and at least value thought [TS]

01:34:47   over raw primal skills it's not that [TS]

01:34:50   they're being pushed into premium is [TS]

01:34:51   just a different kind of skill barrier [TS]

01:34:52   and the skill barrier I'm talking about [TS]

01:34:55   is it's much worse than like you know [TS]

01:34:59   very few people can can play through one [TS]

01:35:01   of those text adventure games or will [TS]

01:35:03   play through them because they find them [TS]

01:35:04   frustrating nothing interesting it's [TS]

01:35:05   just kind of obscure and you have to be [TS]

01:35:07   really into that kind of like people who [TS]

01:35:08   are into like super hard crossword [TS]

01:35:10   puzzles most people like crossword [TS]

01:35:12   puzzles but at a certain point you're [TS]

01:35:13   weeding everybody out and it's like oh [TS]

01:35:15   well these people seek out the super [TS]

01:35:16   hard crossword puzzles because that's [TS]

01:35:17   what they need to to be a challenge and [TS]

01:35:19   to be interesting to them right I'm [TS]

01:35:20   talking more about games they really are [TS]

01:35:23   odd like I think journey is a super [TS]

01:35:25   broad game that anyone can appreciate [TS]

01:35:27   without any history in gaming knowing I [TS]

01:35:30   think about it except for the fact that [TS]

01:35:31   they can't successfully play it and [TS]

01:35:32   that's the frustrating thing to me that [TS]

01:35:34   that that is not a really obscure thing [TS]

01:35:37   or what a bit that only a few people can [TS]

01:35:39   appreciate it but it's just regular [TS]

01:35:40   people being prevented from experiencing [TS]

01:35:43   it because they lack these basic skills [TS]

01:35:44   to play games they really don't have [TS]

01:35:46   anything to do with the game they just [TS]

01:35:47   assume that you're supposed to have it [TS]

01:35:48   he continues as someone who parents kids [TS]

01:35:51   I don't like kids playing such violent [TS]

01:35:53   trash and no World of Warcraft is not [TS]

01:35:55   analogous to pinochle this kind of [TS]

01:35:57   revelation drives me crazy and his final [TS]

01:35:59   conclusion societies in decline we are [TS]

01:36:02   doomed but young people haven't figured [TS]

01:36:03   it out and there are too many older [TS]

01:36:04   folks who will sell the young whatever [TS]

01:36:06   they want so in reaction to this letter [TS]

01:36:11   I will quote this thing that I googled [TS]

01:36:13   the heck out of to try to find the [TS]

01:36:15   sourcing for but the Google results were [TS]

01:36:17   totally destroyed by spammy reposting [TS]

01:36:21   garbage results where they need to get [TS]

01:36:24   their act together children the children [TS]

01:36:27   now love luxury they have bad manners [TS]

01:36:29   contempt for authority and they show [TS]

01:36:30   disrespect for elders and love chatter [TS]

01:36:32   in place of exercise children out IRA [TS]

01:36:34   not the servants of their households [TS]

01:36:35   they no longer rise when elders into the [TS]

01:36:37   room they contradict their parents [TS]

01:36:38   chatter before company gobble up dandies [TS]

01:36:40   of the table across their legs and [TS]

01:36:41   tyrannize their teachers this probably [TS]

01:36:46   poorly translated probably misattributed [TS]

01:36:47   quote about the kids today often seen on [TS]

01:36:51   the Internet is attributed by Plato to [TS]

01:36:54   Socrates around 420 BC so kids today [TS]

01:36:59   it's eternal refrain what they're doing [TS]

01:37:02   is bad they are badly behaved they go [TS]

01:37:05   into hell and handbasket Socrates [TS]

01:37:07   thought it and 400-something BC every [TS]

01:37:10   person thinks it today I don't think [TS]

01:37:12   it's any more or less true at any one of [TS]

01:37:14   those times I think world work is [TS]

01:37:17   analogous to pinochle in the sense that [TS]

01:37:18   I was discussing it which is the idea [TS]

01:37:21   that certain things that you play as a [TS]

01:37:24   child you should stop playing as an [TS]

01:37:25   adult because they're frivolous and no [TS]

01:37:27   one seems to say that about pinochle as [TS]

01:37:29   people continue to play it well into old [TS]

01:37:31   age but for video games and media that [TS]

01:37:33   did not exist when the current [TS]

01:37:35   generation of old people were young [TS]

01:37:36   uh they think it's some crazy thing that [TS]

01:37:39   the kids are doing and it surely it's [TS]

01:37:41   only for kids three generations and now [TS]

01:37:43   when we're three generations through [TS]

01:37:44   adults you know we're long past the [TS]

01:37:46   point where adults of the vast majority [TS]

01:37:48   of gamers but many generations from now [TS]

01:37:50   from the people who were not alive uh [TS]

01:37:52   people who were alive when there were no [TS]

01:37:54   video games all them are dead I think it [TS]

01:37:56   will be more like pinochle ah Michael [TS]

01:37:59   doesn't give any particular arguments on [TS]

01:38:00   why it's not analogous to pinochle [TS]

01:38:01   probably because pinochle existed before [TS]

01:38:03   he was born but video games did not that [TS]

01:38:05   is my guess so [TS]

01:38:09   when I listen to myself in this episode [TS]

01:38:11   we'll see how much about gaming I miss [TS]

01:38:12   but I think I got it all this in my a my [TS]

01:38:14   leaving any holes here [TS]

01:38:15   you're asking me you're the gear the [TS]

01:38:17   game or you're the expert I know this is [TS]

01:38:20   the three Episode attempt to articulate [TS]

01:38:22   some half-formed topic that I could not [TS]

01:38:24   have written about successfully because [TS]

01:38:26   obviously I hadn't thought it through [TS]

01:38:27   enough and yet if we get three shows [TS]

01:38:28   worth of content under I think I think [TS]

01:38:30   it's interesting for me to think about [TS]

01:38:31   again getting back to Merlin's thing is [TS]

01:38:33   the podcast being like a first draft and [TS]

01:38:34   your ideas I think this is you select [TS]

01:38:36   the exercise is produced a lot of good [TS]

01:38:38   thoughtful feedback and and blog posts [TS]

01:38:40   and tweets about it so I hope people [TS]

01:38:41   enjoyed it as people people loved your [TS]

01:38:44   discussion of gaming they wish there was [TS]

01:38:46   a gaming show and they wish you would do [TS]

01:38:47   it yeah well you know I can't do a [TS]

01:38:49   gaming show end this show and as I think [TS]

01:38:52   I've discussed this before but you keep [TS]

01:38:53   bringing it up so I'll talk about it [TS]

01:38:54   again the reason I don't think I could [TS]

01:38:56   do a regular gaming podcast is I don't [TS]

01:38:58   play enough games gaming and gaming [TS]

01:38:59   podcast people want to hear about you [TS]

01:39:01   know what do you think about this game [TS]

01:39:03   and every time that would come up I [TS]

01:39:04   would say I don't know I haven't played [TS]

01:39:05   it I don't know I haven't played it I [TS]

01:39:06   don't know I haven't played it I don't [TS]

01:39:07   plan to play it I'm not qualified to do [TS]

01:39:09   that no let me let me let me toss out an [TS]

01:39:11   idea for you it's just an idea you're [TS]

01:39:13   gonna have to run with this if you want [TS]

01:39:14   to do it but here's my response to that [TS]

01:39:17   statement which you repeat every time [TS]

01:39:19   what if we were to start a Kickstarter [TS]

01:39:21   project so that those interested could [TS]

01:39:25   subsidize a salary for you to do your [TS]

01:39:29   own gaming show podcast [TS]

01:39:31   assuming we could not get any sponsors [TS]

01:39:32   for it and they could raise enough to [TS]

01:39:35   you know create a salary for you for [TS]

01:39:38   several years and then you could do a [TS]

01:39:40   gaming show and you would have enough [TS]

01:39:42   time because now you're in all of your [TS]

01:39:44   free time whatever your hands could [TS]

01:39:46   physically do [TS]

01:39:48   could be spent playing games and then [TS]

01:39:50   you could talk about them yeah you're [TS]

01:39:51   correct we found the other problem which [TS]

01:39:53   is that even if I had unlimited time [TS]

01:39:55   could I actually physically play all [TS]

01:39:56   these games probably not probably not [TS]

01:39:58   yeah do you do you know how what your [TS]

01:40:01   physical limits would be without you [TS]

01:40:03   know creating an injury those who don't [TS]

01:40:06   know we're talking about John and I [TS]

01:40:08   don't know the episode number offhand [TS]

01:40:10   maybe you remember it number six I think [TS]

01:40:12   okay so episode I'll verify that but [TS]

01:40:14   episode number six you detail the RSI [TS]

01:40:19   issues that you have and that those [TS]

01:40:22   frivolous things yes RSI travel phobia [TS]

01:40:27   I'll put that into the show notes you [TS]

01:40:29   detail that you have some issues with [TS]

01:40:31   RSI and that is why you dictate many of [TS]

01:40:35   your long articles that you write about [TS]

01:40:37   Mac os10 it's also a limiting factor in [TS]

01:40:39   how many games you could play as well as [TS]

01:40:42   how much typing you can do but what if [TS]

01:40:43   you were to if you were no longer typing [TS]

01:40:45   at work if your work was playing games [TS]

01:40:48   perhaps it would balance out perhaps if [TS]

01:40:50   the audience is serious enough they [TS]

01:40:52   could raise another I don't know to play [TS]

01:40:54   more games but probably not enough to be [TS]

01:40:56   like I see how many games like that the [TS]

01:40:58   actual gamer he was like Ben Kuchera who [TS]

01:41:00   used to work for hours now we're [TS]

01:41:01   spending our kid he plays a tremendous [TS]

01:41:03   number of games I know how long he's [TS]

01:41:04   playing the games because I know how [TS]

01:41:05   long these games take to complete and I [TS]

01:41:07   know which games he's completed right [TS]

01:41:08   and I just could not take that much just [TS]

01:41:10   just could I mean it even comes up with [TS]

01:41:12   typing like when I'm doing documentation [TS]

01:41:14   at work that involves a lot more typing [TS]

01:41:16   the programming because it is less like [TS]

01:41:17   pausing to think or moving around or [TS]

01:41:19   compiling or like clicking around in a [TS]

01:41:20   web browser you know what I mean because [TS]

01:41:22   documentation is just like writing [TS]

01:41:23   straight yeah a good a good programmer [TS]

01:41:25   you might even say a good programmer [TS]

01:41:27   doesn't type that much yeah well you [TS]

01:41:30   it's not it the very least there's more [TS]

01:41:31   break so I find even just when I doing [TS]

01:41:33   lots of documentation that starts [TS]

01:41:34   reaching my limits if I was playing a [TS]

01:41:36   video game with a controller for that [TS]

01:41:37   amount of time I could not now so mainly [TS]

01:41:39   the reason I don't think I do a game [TS]

01:41:41   thing is I don't think I'm qualified you [TS]

01:41:42   obviously disagree many other listeners [TS]

01:41:44   disagree but I think the important [TS]

01:41:46   person here is whether I think I'm [TS]

01:41:47   qualified and I wouldn't I would never [TS]

01:41:49   collect Kickstarter money to do [TS]

01:41:50   something I'm not qualified for [TS]

01:41:51   especially since that's such a thing [TS]

01:41:53   with Kickstarter where people are not [TS]

01:41:54   worried like some given all this money [TS]

01:41:55   I'm actually gonna get anything I you [TS]

01:41:57   know I don't think I'm qualified new [TS]

01:41:59   gaming podcast and I think gaming is [TS]

01:42:02   on topic ish for this thing and whenever [TS]

01:42:04   we want to talk about gaming we can you [TS]

01:42:06   know that's fine you know but the [TS]

01:42:08   listeners will have to accept that yeah [TS]

01:42:11   I mean sometimes we'll talk about file [TS]

01:42:12   systems you know you never know what [TS]

01:42:13   you're gonna get you don't know it's a [TS]

01:42:14   mixed bag yeah outside not the analogy I [TS]

01:42:18   would use it it's not the expression I [TS]

01:42:19   would use box of chocolates yeah man [TS]

01:42:22   we're getting better mixed bag is as a [TS]

01:42:25   negative connotations because it's like [TS]

01:42:27   some good and some bad it's an unknown [TS]

01:42:29   quantity yeah [TS]

01:42:30   all right are we done I was I do have a [TS]

01:42:32   few more little things we want to do [TS]

01:42:33   them but we can stop here if you'd like [TS]

01:42:34   to I mean let's have what would wait a [TS]

01:42:37   minute what is a few more little things [TS]

01:42:39   I got the Dropbox app store retract [TS]

01:42:41   rejections I've got a little bit [TS]

01:42:43   Instagram and then some like remainder [TS]

01:42:46   stuff so another couple hours well you [TS]

01:42:49   know it's up to you we can we can be [TS]

01:42:51   done here I'll save those for the next [TS]

01:42:52   show if you want or I can do one of them [TS]

01:42:54   or show you do what you and do do you [TS]

01:42:57   have a schedule today you need to keep [TS]

01:42:58   them I do but I'm already late for my [TS]

01:43:00   appointment so now at this point you [TS]

01:43:02   know well the whole day a whole day [TS]

01:43:04   screwed so whatever you know what [TS]

01:43:05   everyone do it let's do it go for it [TS]

01:43:08   let's do another couple hours now we [TS]

01:43:10   should stop then if you have to be [TS]

01:43:11   something no that's it I'm already I [TS]

01:43:12   already think I had to cancel it because [TS]

01:43:15   it's right I'm already late well you [TS]

01:43:17   know you were late to start this I know [TS]

01:43:19   I'm pre camp Abed entirely on my own not [TS]

01:43:21   entirely I assume to just just drop bar [TS]

01:43:23   Dropbox app store rejections cuz I think [TS]

01:43:26   that will be short let's see let's see [TS]

01:43:28   don't limit yourself people love it when [TS]

01:43:30   you go when you when you do like a two [TS]

01:43:32   three hour show I mean that's what [TS]

01:43:34   people really look that's what they line [TS]

01:43:35   up for that's his listeners want you [TS]

01:43:37   know give them what they want [TS]

01:43:38   I've done three hour uncomparable z-- [TS]

01:43:40   but they were split into two shows [TS]

01:43:41   that's something you could sit it we [TS]

01:43:42   could take these long ones you can you [TS]

01:43:43   break it up into two shows a live [TS]

01:43:45   listeners to get to hear at all but the [TS]

01:43:46   other one else has to wait but then [TS]

01:43:48   would we would we not do another show [TS]

01:43:51   the following week I don't know you [TS]

01:43:53   double it up you can start banking [TS]

01:43:54   things you know give yourself some time [TS]

01:43:56   off by by working a little bit harder [TS]

01:43:58   that's right or actually working the [TS]

01:44:00   same amount but just putting a cut in [TS]

01:44:02   the middle of the fun I say do do both [TS]

01:44:04   of the topics do the Dropbox thing and [TS]

01:44:06   do the Instagram thing all right we'll [TS]

01:44:09   see so the Dropbox apps are reductions I [TS]

01:44:12   know you did talk about this your [TS]

01:44:13   applications submitted to the iOS app [TS]

01:44:15   store that are being rejected because [TS]

01:44:17   within the interface there's some sort [TS]

01:44:18   of Dropbox integration and when you try [TS]

01:44:22   to integrating you don't have an account [TS]

01:44:23   it says you know enter your login [TS]

01:44:24   information here but if you don't have [TS]

01:44:26   an account you know go here and you can [TS]

01:44:28   get a Dropbox account and that [TS]

01:44:29   eventually leads you to a Dropbox page [TS]

01:44:32   where you you know enter information and [TS]

01:44:34   even though Dropbox accounts are free [TS]

01:44:35   there's also a way to give them money [TS]

01:44:36   and apples rejecting it because under [TS]

01:44:39   the umbrella of if you have an iOS [TS]

01:44:42   application you can't solicit money from [TS]

01:44:44   people through a web interface so Amazon [TS]

01:44:46   Kindle application can't link the [TS]

01:44:48   amazon.com to buy books you can't even [TS]

01:44:50   link to the web page like you can't [TS]

01:44:51   certainly you can't do it in the UI you [TS]

01:44:52   can't have like a built-in UI a friend [TS]

01:44:55   of mine doesn't [TS]

01:44:56   he booked reader called e-reader or he [TS]

01:44:58   broke the original version of it as a [TS]

01:45:00   contractor and they had an interface [TS]

01:45:01   inside it where without leaving the [TS]

01:45:03   application you could buy ebooks which [TS]

01:45:04   makes perfect sense right but Apple [TS]

01:45:07   eventually put you know cut that out so [TS]

01:45:09   I was like alright everyone everyone [TS]

01:45:10   says I can't do that we'll just put a [TS]

01:45:12   link to our website go here to get books [TS]

01:45:14   and you tap there and it launches mobile [TS]

01:45:15   zafar and you can buy books and Apple [TS]

01:45:17   said no no we don't like that either no [TS]

01:45:18   no going elsewhere and so now people [TS]

01:45:20   just do merely doing integration with [TS]

01:45:21   Dropbox using their SDK or whatever [TS]

01:45:23   apparently is some standard part of the [TS]

01:45:24   SDK that eventually leads you to a [TS]

01:45:26   screen on the Dropbox website which [TS]

01:45:28   could potentially optionally take some [TS]

01:45:31   money from you if you wanted to pay the [TS]

01:45:32   money for you know a non free Dropbox [TS]

01:45:34   account and Apple's putting the hammer [TS]

01:45:36   down those saying no no no you can do [TS]

01:45:38   that so Gruber talked a lot about how he [TS]

01:45:40   doesn't think this is a particular [TS]

01:45:42   attack on Dropbox and I agree it's not [TS]

01:45:44   some sort of particular Vendetta because [TS]

01:45:47   apples trying to move into the cloud [TS]

01:45:48   storage space or anything it's just a [TS]

01:45:49   natural extension of their existing [TS]

01:45:52   policy on things but the place where I [TS]

01:45:54   part ways with what Gruber was [TS]

01:45:57   suggesting and I think you might agree [TS]

01:45:59   with me a little bit more on this when [TS]

01:46:01   you're talking about it seemed like you [TS]

01:46:02   were more in my side is it's not about [TS]

01:46:04   the 30% cut it's not like Oh apples got [TS]

01:46:07   to get there 30% cut the Apple doesn't [TS]

01:46:09   make money off 30% cut of sales like [TS]

01:46:12   that's just enough to keep the lights on [TS]

01:46:13   for the business Apple makes all their [TS]

01:46:15   money are selling hardware the amount of [TS]

01:46:16   money they make off software and other [TS]

01:46:18   services is negligible compared to the [TS]

01:46:21   rest of their money I think people ought [TS]

01:46:22   to think about that anything relating to [TS]

01:46:24   iTunes or any of that as just break even [TS]

01:46:28   for [TS]

01:46:28   well if they and I think that's how [TS]

01:46:29   Apple thinks of it is either slightly [TS]

01:46:31   losing money or break even if they do a [TS]

01:46:33   little bit better then yeah we did a [TS]

01:46:35   little bit better but for them it's it's [TS]

01:46:36   all part of selling hardware this is a [TS]

01:46:38   vehicle to selling hardware yeah and [TS]

01:46:40   like it doesn't mean they don't care [TS]

01:46:42   about it where Apple makes its money [TS]

01:46:43   doesn't mean like oh that's their entire [TS]

01:46:45   focus and they don't care about software [TS]

01:46:46   that they care about everything but like [TS]

01:46:48   the place you know the place where the [TS]

01:46:50   money comes from isn't the thing they [TS]

01:46:52   concentrate on that's one of the great [TS]

01:46:53   things about Apple is like just because [TS]

01:46:55   they make all their money from power it [TS]

01:46:56   doesn't mean I will then forget the [TS]

01:46:57   software screw that we don't care about [TS]

01:46:58   the software we don't care about [TS]

01:46:59   services they see it all as a piece and [TS]

01:47:01   where the money happens to come from is [TS]

01:47:03   just kind of like well that's that's [TS]

01:47:05   where we can happen to make money uh and [TS]

01:47:06   so they're not optimizing their entire [TS]

01:47:09   company just in the part they're making [TS]

01:47:10   money for but it's clear that there's [TS]

01:47:13   not some sort of strategy like oh geez [TS]

01:47:15   the future of the company depends on [TS]

01:47:16   getting those 30% cuts because they've [TS]

01:47:18   clearly seen with the way car things [TS]

01:47:20   currently are now the big money they [TS]

01:47:21   their income comes from what they get [TS]

01:47:24   the profits they get on hardware and [TS]

01:47:25   they need to do all this other stuff too [TS]

01:47:27   now if that shifted someday if suddenly [TS]

01:47:28   like their Hardware margins disappeared [TS]

01:47:31   and the software volumes drastically [TS]

01:47:33   increase and suddenly they're making the [TS]

01:47:35   vast majority of the money from this 30% [TS]

01:47:36   cut then that argument be true like oh [TS]

01:47:38   they had needs a 3% cut but at this [TS]

01:47:40   point it's not about getting the 30% cut [TS]

01:47:42   of everything because getting or not [TS]

01:47:43   getting a 30% cut of like ebooks sales [TS]

01:47:45   and stuff it's not going to make or [TS]

01:47:47   break their business they could double [TS]

01:47:49   their software revenues it would still [TS]

01:47:50   be totally dwarfed by the iPhone alone [TS]

01:47:51   right it's just not the way their [TS]

01:47:53   business is structured now and I don't [TS]

01:47:54   think they're trying to shift their [TS]

01:47:56   business so that we feel uncomfortable [TS]

01:47:58   making all this hard this profit or hard [TS]

01:47:59   would we rather make the profit on [TS]

01:48:00   softwares or our services if anything I [TS]

01:48:03   think it's the other way I think Apple [TS]

01:48:04   is the master of its own destiny much [TS]

01:48:05   more in the hardware market than they [TS]

01:48:07   are and trying to get a cut of other [TS]

01:48:08   people's sales because that is a much [TS]

01:48:10   more tenuous business where you don't [TS]

01:48:12   have control over all the factors you [TS]

01:48:13   have to rely on people submitting [TS]

01:48:14   applications to you and selling to the [TS]

01:48:16   store and so on Laura I'm by the way one [TS]

01:48:18   side tangent there that ruber was trying [TS]

01:48:20   to express how a 30% cut was not tenable [TS]

01:48:23   for people who are selling ebooks so [TS]

01:48:25   Amazon can't sell ebooks through the iOS [TS]

01:48:28   like you know in-app purchase thing [TS]

01:48:30   because doesn't work financially you [TS]

01:48:31   tried to give an example and couldn't [TS]

01:48:32   come up with one [TS]

01:48:33   I should have researched this better but [TS]

01:48:35   just listening to the podcast back when [TS]

01:48:37   I was in the e-book business way back [TS]

01:48:38   when in 2000 I can give you an example [TS]

01:48:40   from then which shows how [TS]

01:48:42   couldn't have done a 30% cut and that [TS]

01:48:46   was because and I don't know people can [TS]

01:48:48   tell me in various emails which one of [TS]

01:48:50   these things I'm I don't know if this is [TS]

01:48:51   the agency model or not the agency model [TS]

01:48:53   or whatever I'm just going to tell you [TS]

01:48:54   how things were in 2002 and why at that [TS]

01:48:56   time this this 30 percent cut would not [TS]

01:48:58   have worked and I assume the current [TS]

01:49:00   situation is if not identical then [TS]

01:49:02   similar it just you know fine [TS]

01:49:04   financially speaking the publishers [TS]

01:49:07   would give us e books and we would sell [TS]

01:49:09   them and when we sold one we would owe [TS]

01:49:11   them a percentage of the list price for [TS]

01:49:14   that ebook so let's say the list price [TS]

01:49:16   is $10 to make it simple right and they [TS]

01:49:18   needed like you know a 30% it's this one [TS]

01:49:22   these aren't real numbers but a 30 [TS]

01:49:24   percent royalty right so when we sold [TS]

01:49:28   that book we needed to give them $3 [TS]

01:49:31   right but nobody would sell the books [TS]

01:49:34   for list price everyone had the same [TS]

01:49:36   book and everyone wanted to sell this [TS]

01:49:37   cheap as possible so what's the cheapest [TS]

01:49:39   you can possibly sell that book for you [TS]

01:49:40   can sell that book for three dollars and [TS]

01:49:42   one cent give the three dollars for the [TS]

01:49:43   publisher and make one cent back and [TS]

01:49:45   because of competition among booksellers [TS]

01:49:47   the prices really drove themselves down [TS]

01:49:49   so yeah the list price may have been ten [TS]

01:49:51   dollars but everyone selling the books [TS]

01:49:53   like three dollars and fifty cents three [TS]

01:49:54   dollars and 99 cents because they know [TS]

01:49:55   they owe the publisher three dollars no [TS]

01:49:57   matter what and it's like well how much [TS]

01:49:58   profit can I eat out of that by driving [TS]

01:50:00   my prices down because you drive your [TS]

01:50:01   prices down you get more customers to [TS]

01:50:02   come to you in that model when [TS]

01:50:06   everyone's sign when you owe the [TS]

01:50:08   publisher three dollars and everyone's [TS]

01:50:09   selling the books for like three dollars [TS]

01:50:10   and 50 cents or whatever there's no way [TS]

01:50:12   you can give another three dollars to [TS]

01:50:13   Apple right because then you have to [TS]

01:50:15   raise your price to six dollars and one [TS]

01:50:16   cent to make one sense of profit and [TS]

01:50:18   you'd be out of business you know you [TS]

01:50:20   would lose the people who are continuing [TS]

01:50:21   to sell it for three dollars and fifty [TS]

01:50:23   cents it would just be so much cheaper [TS]

01:50:25   so that's an example not maybe that's [TS]

01:50:28   not the way it is now but that's one [TS]

01:50:29   example of how there just isn't a number [TS]

01:50:31   three another 30% to go to anybody in [TS]

01:50:34   these cases I think now I'm going to [TS]

01:50:36   start talking out of my butt I think the [TS]

01:50:38   problem with Amazon was that Amazon was [TS]

01:50:41   selling books below cost and losing [TS]

01:50:43   money in every sale thus driving down [TS]

01:50:45   the perceived value of e-books and [TS]

01:50:47   making it more difficult for publishers [TS]

01:50:49   to sell their ebooks at higher prices to [TS]

01:50:50   other vendors and they didn't like that [TS]

01:50:52   and so I think the model they have now [TS]

01:50:54   is where [TS]

01:50:55   the publishers are forcing the sellers [TS]

01:50:58   to sell it at a certain amount not just [TS]

01:51:00   asking for a particular percentage but I [TS]

01:51:01   think either of those models due to [TS]

01:51:03   competition makes situation where [TS]

01:51:05   there's just not another 30% cut for [TS]

01:51:07   another middleman because Amazon is a [TS]

01:51:09   reseller and they want to cut up with [TS]

01:51:10   the sales and the publisher wants their [TS]

01:51:12   piece and if Apple wants another piece [TS]

01:51:13   is just it's not it's untenable the [TS]

01:51:15   prices go up too high right so I don't [TS]

01:51:18   know if there's any better than grouper [TS]

01:51:19   there but I do know that my example I [TS]

01:51:21   gave about the when I was in eBook [TS]

01:51:22   industry was accurate in 2002 and is a [TS]

01:51:26   is one example of how there might not be [TS]

01:51:28   enough room for another person to cut [TS]

01:51:31   but I think you know the dis not [TS]

01:51:35   allowing you to go someplace else to pay [TS]

01:51:37   money even in like the silly example [TS]

01:51:39   where it's like so indirect where you [TS]

01:51:41   really you know you just it's just a [TS]

01:51:42   Dropbox integration map that happens to [TS]

01:51:44   lead you to get a Dropbox account that [TS]

01:51:46   happens to possibly ask you for money [TS]

01:51:47   and how ridiculous it is that they're [TS]

01:51:49   stopping that it's not about Apple [TS]

01:51:52   wanting a piece of that money because I [TS]

01:51:53   think in many of these cases especially [TS]

01:51:55   in ebooks Apple knows it's never gonna [TS]

01:51:56   see a cut of that like it's not dumb it [TS]

01:51:59   didn't like say AHA now we're gonna get [TS]

01:52:00   30% cut of all ebooks and was all sad [TS]

01:52:02   when nobody started selling ebooks [TS]

01:52:03   through in-app purchase they know they [TS]

01:52:05   know the realities of the business [TS]

01:52:06   better than any way they have their own [TS]

01:52:07   book store [TS]

01:52:08   yeah Apple can sell them in there [TS]

01:52:09   because they don't know themselves you [TS]

01:52:10   know an extra 30% right that's a [TS]

01:52:12   competitive advantage and that's the [TS]

01:52:13   Apple strategy tax thing that I talked [TS]

01:52:15   about a while ago but they knew they [TS]

01:52:17   weren't going to get that 30 percent cut [TS]

01:52:18   so enforcing this rule is not a way for [TS]

01:52:20   them to we need to turn the screw so we [TS]

01:52:22   can get some of that money all you're [TS]

01:52:23   doing is driving those people out and [TS]

01:52:26   many people say you're making the [TS]

01:52:27   experience worse because it wouldn't it [TS]

01:52:29   be better if on an iOS device inside the [TS]

01:52:32   Kindle app you could buy books wouldn't [TS]

01:52:33   that be better for everybody what is [TS]

01:52:35   Apple's problem isn't apples making its [TS]

01:52:36   user experience but like oh it's all [TS]

01:52:38   about the user experience we want it to [TS]

01:52:39   be nice well isn't it aren't you making [TS]

01:52:41   crap your apps why can't I buy the books [TS]

01:52:44   inside my Kindle app it's it seems like [TS]

01:52:46   it's anti user and you know and that's [TS]

01:52:48   why people start thinking well we know [TS]

01:52:49   it's not good for the users because [TS]

01:52:50   obviously we'd all like to buy our [TS]

01:52:52   ebooks inside the Kindle app so what is [