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The Accidental Tech Podcast

216: Thermal Corner

 

00:00:02   can't innovate anymore my ass [TS]

00:00:27   thank you [TS]

00:00:29   today we're going to talk about [TS]

00:00:33   important things like me driving my dads [TS]

00:00:35   1970 Dodge Dart yesterday yep yeah [TS]

00:00:38   that's that's a good idea what about um [TS]

00:00:39   I was wondering John do we have any [TS]

00:00:42   follow-up we actually do not actually do [TS]

00:00:46   it is only the morse only two oh okay [TS]

00:00:52   bark bark the timestamp kids it's only [TS]

00:00:55   two items in it by my clock were seven [TS]

00:00:58   and a half minutes into the call so [TS]

00:01:00   after follow-up we can also talk about [TS]

00:01:01   t-shirts I suppose okay dad wants to [TS]

00:01:07   kick us off dad can't we just eat her [TS]

00:01:08   dessert first not only you know I [TS]

00:01:12   support I all snark aside we should get [TS]

00:01:14   through the follow-up it shouldn't be [TS]

00:01:15   very long hopefully all right last week [TS]

00:01:18   we talked for the second time about a [TS]

00:01:21   PFS filename encoding and you wouldn't [TS]

00:01:24   think there would be more to say about [TS]

00:01:25   it and yet here we are to talk about it [TS]

00:01:28   for the third possibly fourth are you [TS]

00:01:30   serious yes because Apple has posted [TS]

00:01:33   official documentation on their website [TS]

00:01:36   answering the question hey what's the [TS]

00:01:40   deal with thought Lima coating on a PFS [TS]

00:01:42   and so to summarize and this is a little [TS]

00:01:45   bit weirder than I would have expected [TS]

00:01:47   they say a PFS has case sensitive in [TS]

00:01:50   case insensitive variants we kind of [TS]

00:01:52   assume that would be the case but really [TS]

00:01:54   here you go they set it right out right [TS]

00:01:55   the case insensitive variant of a PFS is [TS]

00:01:58   normalization preserving but not [TS]

00:02:00   normalization sensitive which is pretty [TS]

00:02:03   weird like that basically if you send it [TS]

00:02:06   a file name normalized however the hell [TS]

00:02:08   you want to pick your own Unicode [TS]

00:02:09   normalization the a PFS will preserve [TS]

00:02:13   that but it's not normalization [TS]

00:02:16   sensitive this is the case insensitive [TS]

00:02:18   variant it's not normalization sensitive [TS]

00:02:19   in that if you try to look something up [TS]

00:02:21   and you say hey do you have a file [TS]

00:02:22   called cafe with little yo with the [TS]

00:02:24   accent and my reading of this is that it [TS]

00:02:26   you feed it that string in any [TS]

00:02:29   normalization you want and it doesn't [TS]

00:02:31   matter what normalization it is in the [TS]

00:02:32   file system it will find it because the [TS]

00:02:35   file system is not normalization [TS]

00:02:37   sensitive but it preserves what you give [TS]

00:02:40   it really confusing so anyway we'll have [TS]

00:02:42   to get [TS]

00:02:43   a case-insensitive variant of this on [TS]

00:02:45   the mac and do some tests to see what [TS]

00:02:46   the deal is but the case sensitive [TS]

00:02:48   variant is both normalization preserving [TS]

00:02:50   and normalization sensitive so that is [TS]

00:02:52   straightforward it's the case sensitive [TS]

00:02:54   on iOS is just exactly what we said it [TS]

00:02:58   takes what you give it and that's it and [TS]

00:02:59   they do clarify here file names and a [TS]

00:03:02   PFS are encoded in utf-8 and aren't [TS]

00:03:05   normalized so it wants you so it's not [TS]

00:03:09   as if you read a directory structure and [TS]

00:03:10   a P of s and user I have no idea what [TS]

00:03:12   encoding this is assuming everybody's [TS]

00:03:13   following the rules and I'm not sure if [TS]

00:03:15   this is enforced at the file system [TS]

00:03:16   level or not they all have to be utf-8 [TS]

00:03:19   and the file system itself is not going [TS]

00:03:23   to take your utf-8 string and normalize [TS]

00:03:25   it like H of S Plus that it's like [TS]

00:03:27   whatever you give it in your GF 8 that's [TS]

00:03:28   what it's going to stick in the file [TS]

00:03:29   system both variants will do that but [TS]

00:03:31   it's interesting that they're saying you [TS]

00:03:33   know no utf-16 no utf-32 know anything [TS]

00:03:36   like that I suppose if you use the [TS]

00:03:39   lowest level API as you could just jam [TS]

00:03:41   would have that you wanted into there [TS]

00:03:42   but they're they're documented here [TS]

00:03:44   utf-8 and they compared with the HFS [TS]

00:03:47   plus which has all of its weird rules [TS]

00:03:48   and they say that in Mac OS 10 12 for [TS]

00:03:54   the apos Developer Preview was updated [TS]

00:03:56   to include the case insensitive variant [TS]

00:03:58   so this is the first time the case [TS]

00:03:59   insensitive area native API fuss has [TS]

00:04:01   been available in any version of the [TS]

00:04:04   operating system and an iOS of course in [TS]

00:04:07   10 3 we get the case sensitive variant [TS]

00:04:08   and they give some advice for avoiding [TS]

00:04:11   bugs I bet there will be wwc sessions [TS]

00:04:13   about this exact issue because I think [TS]

00:04:16   it's going to come up a lot they want [TS]

00:04:17   you to use the high level API is they [TS]

00:04:19   want you use NS file manager nsurl and [TS]

00:04:21   they want you to use the filesystem [TS]

00:04:22   representation property of nsurl we're [TS]

00:04:25   in creating an opening files with lower [TS]

00:04:27   level filesystem API is like the POSIX [TS]

00:04:29   tough so there are high level API is to [TS]

00:04:32   give you you know a character buffer or [TS]

00:04:35   whatever to feed into the lower level [TS]

00:04:36   api's so I'm glad they have some [TS]

00:04:39   documentation on it it's still pretty [TS]

00:04:40   weird this is definitely a case where [TS]

00:04:42   we're going to need to see a lot of [TS]

00:04:43   sample code and a lot of sort of best [TS]

00:04:46   practices and Andy patterns and still I [TS]

00:04:49   believe when the when the Mac operating [TS]

00:04:52   system ships with a non developer [TS]

00:04:54   preview version as operating system we [TS]

00:04:55   will all get to find out [TS]

00:04:56   which are on our applications are making [TS]

00:04:59   assumptions that no longer hold in an a [TS]

00:05:01   PFS world as they slowly break i'm gonna [TS]

00:05:03   bet on adobe i don't know about you guys [TS]

00:05:05   I think that's a pretty safe bet oh my [TS]

00:05:08   goodness all right we should do a quick [TS]

00:05:11   bit of follow-up and talk about the [TS]

00:05:14   situation report for WOD see we spoke [TS]

00:05:17   last episode marco was one hundred [TS]

00:05:19   percent dedicated two layers which as [TS]

00:05:21   far as i know is still had that still [TS]

00:05:23   has availability so you might want to [TS]

00:05:24   check that out john and i had put our [TS]

00:05:26   names in the hat for WWDC john did you [TS]

00:05:31   win the lottery and win the opportunity [TS]

00:05:33   to give Apple sixteen hundred dollars of [TS]

00:05:35   your money I did I'm a winner Oh Brad [TS]

00:05:38   congratulations I was are excited yeah I [TS]

00:05:41   remember the interminable wait in years [TS]

00:05:45   past for you know when other people are [TS]

00:05:46   getting their emails and this time I was [TS]

00:05:48   distracted enough that about time I [TS]

00:05:50   looked at my email there it was success [TS]

00:05:52   very happy delightful I also won the [TS]

00:05:55   lottery this year which is very exciting [TS]

00:05:57   because I did not win the lottery last [TS]

00:05:59   year so I will also be at WABC which I'm [TS]

00:06:03   very very excited about before we're [TS]

00:06:06   asked since all three of us will be in [TS]

00:06:08   town we are not going to do a live in [TS]

00:06:13   front of people ATP we never really have [TS]

00:06:16   the closest thing we came was when we [TS]

00:06:18   were on the talk show we don't do that [TS]

00:06:21   because even though some of us would [TS]

00:06:25   enjoy doing so absolutely zero of the [TS]

00:06:28   three of us want to have anything to do [TS]

00:06:30   with planning it and so that is why it's [TS]

00:06:32   not happening but all three of us will [TS]

00:06:34   be in town I'm sure we'll talk about [TS]

00:06:36   this more before the on the episode [TS]

00:06:39   before WV DC but if you see us please [TS]

00:06:42   say hi we always enjoy it we may not be [TS]

00:06:43   able to talk for very long depending on [TS]

00:06:45   the situation but we always enjoyed if [TS]

00:06:46   you could say hi any other quick [TS]

00:06:48   thoughts about wdc kids no good talk [TS]

00:06:51   everybody where are your ATP shirts yeah [TS]

00:06:54   well oh and where your ATP shirts it is [TS]

00:06:55   all but guaranteed you will get a [TS]

00:06:57   high-five hug or some other interaction [TS]

00:06:59   from at least me if no one else if I [TS]

00:07:02   spot an ATP shirt and if i remember i'll [TS]

00:07:05   have some ATP stickers printed which [TS]

00:07:07   i'll probably forget but if i remember [TS]

00:07:09   i'll have some printed in if I [TS]

00:07:10   in a t-shirt you're getting a sticker [TS]

00:07:11   and then finally on a very very brief [TS]

00:07:15   but somber note I just wanted to quickly [TS]

00:07:17   recognize that a member of our community [TS]

00:07:20   Jason Seifer who was a fellow podcaster [TS]

00:07:22   a ruby developer and for a long time a [TS]

00:07:25   teacher treehouse passed away unexpected [TS]

00:07:28   and unexpectedly tragically over the [TS]

00:07:31   weekend and I just wanted to acknowledge [TS]

00:07:34   that and say that that I know I'm in and [TS]

00:07:37   I'm pretty darn sure I speak for [TS]

00:07:38   everyone the three of us are very sad to [TS]

00:07:41   hear and we were really bummed about it [TS]

00:07:42   Mike and I talked about it on the [TS]

00:07:45   forthcoming episode of analog that won't [TS]

00:07:46   be out until the weekends are probably [TS]

00:07:48   several days after this episode but [TS]

00:07:50   we're really bummed out and we're really [TS]

00:07:53   sad about it and we just wanted to take [TS]

00:07:55   a pause to to say that all right big [TS]

00:08:00   week a little bit think it's been some [TS]

00:08:03   things have happened so this morning [TS]

00:08:07   there appears to have been some sort of [TS]

00:08:09   an embargo that had dropped about a [TS]

00:08:12   meeting that happens sometimes I guess [TS]

00:08:14   in the last day or two with regard to [TS]

00:08:18   the mac pro of all things yeah i mean [TS]

00:08:21   who had this on the bingo card for this [TS]

00:08:23   week right like that certainly certainly [TS]

00:08:24   not me oh my god this this was a quite a [TS]

00:08:28   big surprise a pleasant surprise but [TS]

00:08:31   certainly a sizable one yeah so there [TS]

00:08:35   were a handful of people that were [TS]

00:08:37   invited to cupertino to discuss I i [TS]

00:08:41   believe it was phrased as a round table [TS]

00:08:43   to talk about the mac yes a small round [TS]

00:08:46   table discussion about the max so as per [TS]

00:08:48   john gruber it was he matthew panzer ii [TS]

00:08:51   know lance ulanoff ena free how did I [TS]

00:08:53   shoot i pronounce our own deny you're [TS]

00:08:55   asking the wrong people alright well [TS]

00:08:57   that's right I'm so sorry if I got that [TS]

00:08:59   wrong anyway and John pegs I'll ski I [TS]

00:09:01   believe that's pretty close to right I [TS]

00:09:03   should have made somebody else read [TS]

00:09:05   those names so I didn't have to anyway [TS]

00:09:07   the the group of them went to cupertino [TS]

00:09:11   to have a roundtable discussion about [TS]

00:09:13   the mac and including about the mac pro [TS]

00:09:18   so not even including the map i would [TS]

00:09:21   say it was primarily about the mac pro [TS]

00:09:22   that's absolutely [TS]

00:09:24   interesting how they phrase this like [TS]

00:09:25   come out come out to cupertino will have [TS]

00:09:28   a roundtable discussion about the mac [TS]

00:09:30   who knows what they actually told the [TS]

00:09:32   people about what they're going to do [TS]

00:09:33   but their their characterization we're [TS]

00:09:35   just gonna hang out we're gonna talk [TS]

00:09:36   about the mac a little bit right guys [TS]

00:09:37   and yeah like Margot said no they're [TS]

00:09:42   going to talk specifically about one [TS]

00:09:44   particular Mac this near and dear to all [TS]

00:09:46   of our hearts except for Casey and [TS]

00:09:48   that's entirely what the thing was about [TS]

00:09:50   but I guess they can't come out and tell [TS]

00:09:51   people hey fly out Cupertino so we can [TS]

00:09:55   tell you stuff about the mac pro they [TS]

00:09:57   always want to have a little bit of a [TS]

00:09:58   surprise yeah I guess they did talk [TS]

00:10:01   about the imac I mean they talked about [TS]

00:10:02   a lot of things because you could ask [TS]

00:10:03   them any questions you want it and then [TS]

00:10:04   they could answer them however they [TS]

00:10:05   wanted but what the big takeaway from [TS]

00:10:07   this and most of the headlines with the [TS]

00:10:09   exception of a couple that did mention [TS]

00:10:11   the imac we're all about the mac pro [TS]

00:10:13   right so I'm going to do my best to [TS]

00:10:16   summarize and then I will probably get [TS]

00:10:18   interrupted and that's for the best so [TS]

00:10:20   let me start by meeting a little for a [TS]

00:10:22   little from what Gruber had written and [TS]

00:10:25   he says here's how she'll or broke the [TS]

00:10:26   news on the Mac Pro it's worth quoting [TS]

00:10:28   him at lengths and let me now quote [TS]

00:10:30   Gruber quoting Schiller with regard to [TS]

00:10:33   the mac pro we are in the process of [TS]

00:10:34   what we call completely rethinking the [TS]

00:10:36   mac pro we're working on it we have a [TS]

00:10:39   team working hard on it right now and we [TS]

00:10:40   want to architect it so that we can keep [TS]

00:10:42   it fresh with regular improvements and [TS]

00:10:44   we're committed to making it our highest [TS]

00:10:46   and high-throughput desktop system [TS]

00:10:48   designed for are demanding pro customers [TS]

00:10:50   as a part of doing a new mac pro it is [TS]

00:10:53   by definition of modular system we will [TS]

00:10:54   be doing a pro display as well john [TS]

00:10:57   siracusa it is your lucky day that's me [TS]

00:11:00   not sure anyway now that would be easy [TS]

00:11:02   that would have been amazing yeah you [TS]

00:11:05   won't see any of those products this [TS]

00:11:07   year we're in the process of that we [TS]

00:11:08   think it's really important to create [TS]

00:11:10   something great for our pro customers [TS]

00:11:11   who want a mac pro modular system and [TS]

00:11:13   that'll take longer than this year to do [TS]

00:11:15   in the interim we know that there are a [TS]

00:11:16   number of customers who will continue to [TS]

00:11:18   buy our current mac pro's to be clear a [TS]

00:11:20   current mac pro's metha needs of some of [TS]

00:11:22   our customers and we know that clearly [TS]

00:11:24   not all of our customers none of this is [TS]

00:11:27   black and white it's wide variety of [TS]

00:11:28   customers some it's the kind of system [TS]

00:11:30   that they wanted others it was not in [TS]

00:11:32   the meantime we're going to update the [TS]

00:11:34   configs to make it faster and better for [TS]

00:11:35   their dollar this is not a new model [TS]

00:11:38   a new design we're just going to update [TS]

00:11:40   the configs we're doing that this week [TS]

00:11:42   we can give you the specifics on that [TS]

00:11:44   the CPUs we're moving them down the line [TS]

00:11:46   the GPUs down the line to get more [TS]

00:11:48   performance per dollar for customers who [TS]

00:11:49   do need to continue to buy them on the [TS]

00:11:51   in the owner in the interim until we get [TS]

00:11:54   a newly architected system so there is a [TS]

00:11:58   new mac pro it is not happening in 2017 [TS]

00:12:01   there is a small spec spec bump on the [TS]

00:12:04   existing mac pro but things are [TS]

00:12:07   happening and the fact that Apple is [TS]

00:12:10   addressing this at all I think is really [TS]

00:12:13   exciting and in really really good news [TS]

00:12:15   i can continue to summarize but i think [TS]

00:12:18   at this point we should take a moment [TS]

00:12:19   and start talking so Marco let's start [TS]

00:12:23   with you what do you think I have like [TS]

00:12:25   four pages of notes here where to begin [TS]

00:12:28   I mean so we will get into some of the [TS]

00:12:33   specifics but just high level overview [TS]

00:12:35   I'm incredibly happy to hear this this [TS]

00:12:39   is awesome because what this means you [TS]

00:12:42   know for for a long time it has seemed [TS]

00:12:45   you know the the neglect of the Mac Pro [TS]

00:12:47   has been going on for three years if you [TS]

00:12:51   measure it from the trash can but [TS]

00:12:53   actually the neglect of the mac pro [TS]

00:12:55   started in 2010 the the well the last [TS]

00:12:58   like basically in 2010 was the last new [TS]

00:13:02   cheese grater revision they officially [TS]

00:13:04   did one in twenty twelve but it was [TS]

00:13:06   really the same thing with like one more [TS]

00:13:08   processor option at the top end it was [TS]

00:13:10   actually very similar what they just did [TS]

00:13:11   today but actually with it it today was [TS]

00:13:13   even less because there are no new [TS]

00:13:15   options but the 2012 Mac Pro really [TS]

00:13:18   wasn't a thing the 2010 one was the was [TS]

00:13:21   the last cheese grater update that [TS]

00:13:23   mattered and if you ever seen the old [TS]

00:13:25   logo of our show by the way yeah it was [TS]

00:13:27   a cheese grater Mac Pro with a little [TS]

00:13:29   new label stuck on it and sarcastically [TS]

00:13:31   because we were waiting for the Mac Pro [TS]

00:13:33   that the new mac pros to be announced at [TS]

00:13:35   WABC we had been waiting for a while and [TS]

00:13:37   they did announce new mac pro's all [TS]

00:13:38   right maybe it was like a press release [TS]

00:13:39   updated not even a stage I forget but [TS]

00:13:42   they were only knew you know [TS]

00:13:43   conceptually like technically yeah [TS]

00:13:45   there's one new configuration is one new [TS]

00:13:47   cpu that was the I think that was the [TS]

00:13:49   very first icon this podcast ever had [TS]

00:13:51   it was right and so the show was founded [TS]

00:13:55   on dissatisfaction with the with the [TS]

00:13:58   offerings of the Mac Pro see it so the [TS]

00:14:00   people who dated back to the trashcan [TS]

00:14:01   yeah the trashcan has had problems and [TS]

00:14:03   we'll talk about that but even as far [TS]

00:14:04   back in the cheese grater it seemed like [TS]

00:14:05   they took everybody off the cheese [TS]

00:14:07   grater and said you know we've been [TS]

00:14:08   steadily updating this cheese grater for [TS]

00:14:10   a while you know every time there's a [TS]

00:14:11   new cpu upgrading the GPUs every year [TS]

00:14:14   just like clockwork but we're not going [TS]

00:14:16   to do that anymore and maybe they all [TS]

00:14:18   went off to make the trash can which is [TS]

00:14:19   really weird and complicated or maybe [TS]

00:14:21   they were just you know pulling back a [TS]

00:14:23   little bit and slowing down the updates [TS]

00:14:25   again it's hard to know what goes on [TS]

00:14:26   inside Apple but this phenomenon of the [TS]

00:14:29   Mac Pro no longer being updated steadily [TS]

00:14:33   is as Marco said not a phenomenon that [TS]

00:14:36   goes back to 2013 it goes all the way [TS]

00:14:39   back to 2010 so it's a long time exactly [TS]

00:14:41   and so when you know clearly one of the [TS]

00:14:45   reasons why there is a long delay [TS]

00:14:46   between the 2010 one and 2013 redesign [TS]

00:14:49   which was really it was announced in [TS]

00:14:51   mid-2013 but it wasn't really available [TS]

00:14:53   it went for sale in late December of [TS]

00:14:55   2013 and wasn't actually shipped to [TS]

00:14:57   anybody until the first couple months of [TS]

00:14:59   2014 so it was you know a good three and [TS]

00:15:03   a half years between like July 2010 when [TS]

00:15:05   that other one came out and this new one [TS]

00:15:07   I'm that was presumably because they [TS]

00:15:09   were doing this big redesign and [TS]

00:15:10   everything and also by the way they they [TS]

00:15:13   pre announced the 23rd yeah Mac Pro [TS]

00:15:14   mostly because we felt like or Apple [TS]

00:15:17   felt like it like they had to because we [TS]

00:15:19   were waiting like what's the deal what's [TS]

00:15:21   the old Mac Pro you did this update and [TS]

00:15:22   it was barely an update it was like you [TS]

00:15:25   know that you call that an update where [TS]

00:15:26   is the real new Mac Pro and we were [TS]

00:15:29   waiting what it then seemed like such a [TS]

00:15:31   long time for they felt like they need [TS]

00:15:33   to say at WWDC here's the new Mac Pro [TS]

00:15:36   ins this amazing thing we're like yay [TS]

00:15:38   finally is it all by the way not really [TS]

00:15:39   like shipping for a long time but but [TS]

00:15:41   still they like why didn't they hold it [TS]

00:15:43   until it was it was somewhat close to [TS]

00:15:46   shipping because they felt but you know [TS]

00:15:47   that whatever dissatisfaction there was [TS]

00:15:49   among that customer base they had to [TS]

00:15:51   reassure them by saying alright we're [TS]

00:15:53   going to announce a thing we're going to [TS]

00:15:54   show you the pictures of it here it is [TS]

00:15:55   we're going to put it in a little glass [TS]

00:15:57   tube outside of the Presidio at Moscone [TS]

00:16:00   and so you can look at it and see that [TS]

00:16:02   it's a real thing but you're not getting [TS]

00:16:03   one [TS]

00:16:04   months but we all felt better because [TS]

00:16:06   it's like well at least we know now that [TS]

00:16:08   the Mac Pro isn't dead that is not there [TS]

00:16:10   the reason they weren't operating the [TS]

00:16:11   cheese graters could have been because [TS]

00:16:13   they were working on this and this is a [TS]

00:16:14   fancy new thing and it will be coming [TS]

00:16:16   soon and I think we all basically felt [TS]

00:16:18   better about that even though there was [TS]

00:16:20   a delay and this current announcement is [TS]

00:16:22   like everything will happen before but [TS]

00:16:24   stretch all the time lines out even [TS]

00:16:26   farther you know at the time we thought [TS]

00:16:28   they don't care about Mac Pro users they [TS]

00:16:31   don't care about the Mac Pro and then [TS]

00:16:32   they release the you know the 2013 one [TS]

00:16:34   and we thought okay great they released [TS]

00:16:37   a new one and this is awesome however it [TS]

00:16:40   doesn't need a lot of people's needs in [TS]

00:16:42   a bunch of ways that we'll get into in a [TS]

00:16:44   minute and so then that was now that [TS]

00:16:47   it's been now like about the same delay [TS]

00:16:49   between 2010 on that one and between [TS]

00:16:51   that one and now you know about three [TS]

00:16:53   and a half years or so the assumption [TS]

00:16:55   that we've all been making and I totally [TS]

00:16:58   owned this I have been number one on a [TS]

00:17:01   list of complainers on this show at [TS]

00:17:03   least the assumption that we've all been [TS]

00:17:05   making is that Apple is being run really [TS]

00:17:09   just by the numbers by Tim Cook and that [TS]

00:17:12   you know it is this fairly small product [TS]

00:17:17   line that is you know something like one [TS]

00:17:19   percent of mac sales was just not enough [TS]

00:17:23   of a blip on the radar for Tim Cook to [TS]

00:17:25   care about updating ever again that is [TS]

00:17:29   how it seemed until this morning to to [TS]

00:17:32   all of us Mac Pro users and that has [TS]

00:17:34   manifested itself with a number of side [TS]

00:17:37   effects one of which which I think might [TS]

00:17:39   have contributed to Apple finally you [TS]

00:17:41   know getting into gear on on doing an [TS]

00:17:42   update here is that when the macbook pro [TS]

00:17:45   was updated last fall the 2016 macbook [TS]

00:17:49   pro with the touch bar and everything [TS]

00:17:50   else it was clearly not as well received [TS]

00:17:53   as Apple thought it would be there was [TS]

00:17:56   quite a lot of outcry and part of that [TS]

00:17:58   is because of legitimate downsides of [TS]

00:18:00   that product part that's temporary part [TS]

00:18:03   of it won't be temporary but I think a [TS]

00:18:05   big part of the of the angst over the [TS]

00:18:06   2016 macbook pro is also that pros had [TS]

00:18:10   been neglected on the desktop for so [TS]

00:18:12   long that they're not only were they [TS]

00:18:15   kind of already mad [TS]

00:18:17   Apple not serving their needs but it [TS]

00:18:20   sure looked like they were going to have [TS]

00:18:22   to now wedge their needs into these [TS]

00:18:24   other products that weren't very good at [TS]

00:18:26   serving them and so I if I had to guess [TS]

00:18:30   it was during the 2016 macbook pro [TS]

00:18:33   launch with all this kickback that Apple [TS]

00:18:36   finally decided to go ahead with the new [TS]

00:18:38   Mac Pro project you know Craig federighi [TS]

00:18:41   made some comments during these [TS]

00:18:42   interviews that it was it's been longer [TS]

00:18:44   than six months they've been working on [TS]

00:18:45   it but that doesn't mean it had it had [TS]

00:18:47   the green light to go ahead as a product [TS]

00:18:49   for more than six months I don't think [TS]

00:18:51   it was long as much they've been working [TS]

00:18:52   on it was they were trying this [TS]

00:18:54   roundtable was a bunch of journalists [TS]

00:18:55   right so the journalists are asking [TS]

00:18:56   questions and one of the big questions [TS]

00:18:58   that everyone wants to know is you know [TS]

00:19:02   we we out here in the community who are [TS]

00:19:05   interested in the mac pro have been [TS]

00:19:06   upset about it for a long long time how [TS]

00:19:09   how did it come to pass that so much [TS]

00:19:12   time elapsed between the 2013 mac pro [TS]

00:19:16   and now and there was nothing literally [TS]

00:19:18   no updates no price changes no [TS]

00:19:20   announcement or anything and then just [TS]

00:19:23   now you call a roundtable so everyone [TS]

00:19:25   want to know the timeline how long ago [TS]

00:19:26   did you decide that this is the thing [TS]

00:19:30   you were going to do and they didn't [TS]

00:19:31   like well it's not like there's anyone [TS]

00:19:32   decision or one meeting and each of us [TS]

00:19:34   went through her own journey of like [TS]

00:19:36   deciding what was a quick video so we [TS]

00:19:39   went through like denial and acceptance [TS]

00:19:41   so I can imagine there are people like [TS]

00:19:43   well-made like the denial thing would be [TS]

00:19:45   like well the new Mac Pro was weird and [TS]

00:19:47   all and people complain but I bet if we [TS]

00:19:49   just leave it out there people will come [TS]

00:19:50   to accept it as the new way then pro [TS]

00:19:53   hardware is going to work on the desktop [TS]

00:19:55   and then eventually have to say you know [TS]

00:19:57   looks like they're not really accepting [TS]

00:19:58   it and so the six-month things seemed to [TS]

00:20:01   be more of a timeline of like when when [TS]

00:20:04   did you come to this realization they [TS]

00:20:05   never actually answered how did you go [TS]

00:20:07   so many years with like basically your [TS]

00:20:09   heads in the sand right because that's [TS]

00:20:11   why I mean just two shows ago I was [TS]

00:20:13   asking us all if we had consensus that [TS]

00:20:15   basically there's not going to be [TS]

00:20:17   another new mac pro this is just going [TS]

00:20:18   to be an imac pro which by the way there [TS]

00:20:20   will be and they talked about it you [TS]

00:20:22   know basically an imac bent towards pro [TS]

00:20:24   people because look if there was going [TS]

00:20:25   to be a new mac pro they wouldn't have [TS]

00:20:27   left this one there for like four years [TS]

00:20:29   with no update [TS]

00:20:30   right like surely they wouldn't do that [TS]

00:20:32   just yet with no no communication or [TS]

00:20:35   whatever and it's like the certain point [TS]

00:20:36   they're communicating to you by saying [TS]

00:20:38   we update the imac you know we we don't [TS]

00:20:41   but drop dropping the the apple monitor [TS]

00:20:44   and sort of back-channel communicating [TS]

00:20:46   to some journalists somewhere that hey [TS]

00:20:48   apples not doing monitors anymore and [TS]

00:20:50   offering the LG one that's another big [TS]

00:20:52   sign like the imac it's it's the future [TS]

00:20:54   right and so we were just all like we [TS]

00:20:57   were in the acceptance phase or at least [TS]

00:20:59   i was like well you know no more mac [TS]

00:21:01   pro's and we all we all want to know [TS]

00:21:03   that because we all come wanna like be [TS]

00:21:05   you know vengeful and say how could you [TS]

00:21:07   have made this mistake because on one [TS]

00:21:09   hand we're all ecstatic that the [TS]

00:21:11   announcement they made was not hey by [TS]

00:21:13   the way we just want to let you know [TS]

00:21:15   we're not making the mac pro anymore [TS]

00:21:16   like we want to make it official that [TS]

00:21:18   could have been what they said at this [TS]

00:21:19   meeting they this meeting could have [TS]

00:21:21   also been you know where we've just were [TS]

00:21:23   just given up on the mac like they're [TS]

00:21:25   the most pessimistic ideas of what could [TS]

00:21:27   it mean to go to a mac roundtable and [TS]

00:21:29   ominous sounding mac round table if you [TS]

00:21:31   were accepting there was going to be no [TS]

00:21:32   mac pro could have been like terrible [TS]

00:21:34   bad news instead it was good news but [TS]

00:21:35   the good news is just immediately makes [TS]

00:21:37   you ask the question what well what took [TS]

00:21:40   you so long like and that's the question [TS]

00:21:42   that you know when when did you figure [TS]

00:21:43   it out like what was your plan before [TS]

00:21:45   six months ago what what were you doing [TS]

00:21:47   like what another year guys this this [TS]

00:21:49   current mac pro that we never update [TS]

00:21:50   will will will you know it's gonna set [TS]

00:21:54   the world on fire just wait yeah right [TS]

00:21:56   I'm so they didn't they're not going to [TS]

00:21:58   go into like you know their deliberation [TS]

00:22:00   process and discuss you know is they [TS]

00:22:02   don't realize stuff but they did go into [TS]

00:22:03   a couple of aspects of like why why is [TS]

00:22:07   the current trashcan why didn't you ever [TS]

00:22:09   update it and so Craig federighi had [TS]

00:22:13   said this is a quote from him I think we [TS]

00:22:14   designed ourselves into a bit of a [TS]

00:22:16   thermal corner and there he was talking [TS]

00:22:18   about the design of the trash can which [TS]

00:22:20   is a big cylinder and inside the [TS]

00:22:22   cylinder is kind of like three boards [TS]

00:22:23   three vertical boards that make a [TS]

00:22:24   triangle shape if you're looking down on [TS]

00:22:26   top of it two of them are GPUs and one [TS]

00:22:27   of them is the CPU board he was saying [TS]

00:22:30   that that this is quoting from my pants [TS]

00:22:32   Reno's argyll the unique triangular [TS]

00:22:34   design of the Mac Pro thermal core [TS]

00:22:35   provided proved to be the limiting [TS]

00:22:37   factor it wasn't built to have for one [TS]

00:22:39   of the three sides of the triangle to [TS]

00:22:41   get super hot so if they if they want to [TS]

00:22:42   have a really hot GPU on one side [TS]

00:22:44   and then cooler parts are supposed to be [TS]

00:22:46   like equal distribution of heat from the [TS]

00:22:47   two mid-range you know mid heat GPUs and [TS]

00:22:51   the CPU on the other side but basically [TS]

00:22:52   I think the problem is the little [TS]

00:22:53   cylinder with the one fan on top there [TS]

00:22:55   were just not enough cooling capacity [TS]

00:22:57   unless you probably crank that fan up to [TS]

00:22:59   the point where they didn't like it that [TS]

00:23:00   but the story they gave was we they [TS]

00:23:04   couldn't update it like they the faster [TS]

00:23:06   GPUs they could have put in there it [TS]

00:23:08   couldn't handle a thermal load maybe [TS]

00:23:09   even also the CPUs and federighi also [TS]

00:23:12   emphasized that this wasn't like someone [TS]

00:23:15   had an idea to make a trashcan shaped [TS]

00:23:17   computer and then they just put all [TS]

00:23:19   their marbles in that basket that thing [TS]

00:23:20   missing is another quote from federica [TS]

00:23:22   federighi we didn't start with shape and [TS]

00:23:24   say well here's the fastest machine we [TS]

00:23:26   can put in that box we actually started [TS]

00:23:27   with a target for performance and came [TS]

00:23:29   up with what we think was a very clever [TS]

00:23:30   design for that thermal core thermal [TS]

00:23:32   architecture so they they had a target [TS]

00:23:35   of like two GPUs with lots of cores and [TS]

00:23:39   one cpu and then they tried to figure [TS]

00:23:42   out which again you could say this was [TS]

00:23:44   their one of their mistakes what is the [TS]

00:23:46   smallest quietest thing we can get it [TS]

00:23:49   and they emphasize that in the 2013 Mac [TS]

00:23:51   Pro lunch look how much smaller this [TS]

00:23:53   trashcan mac pro is than the giant [TS]

00:23:55   cheese grater I remember when they put [TS]

00:23:56   up the image of the two things next to [TS]

00:23:58   each other the cake it was like it was [TS]

00:24:00   like what what is that an airport hub [TS]

00:24:03   next to and I felt like no that's the [TS]

00:24:05   new Mac Pro it seemed impossibly small [TS]

00:24:06   compared to the size of the cheese [TS]

00:24:09   grater and they did they made like [TS]

00:24:10   packaging wise it is super quiet and [TS]

00:24:13   super small compared to a at our [TS]

00:24:15   computer and of course you know the [TS]

00:24:16   sacrifice all the internal storage and [TS]

00:24:18   all the other stuff but that basically [TS]

00:24:19   by making that design and all the [TS]

00:24:21   tooling and all that fancy factory in [TS]

00:24:23   the u.s. that makes all this stuff and [TS]

00:24:24   you know all the money they put into [TS]

00:24:26   that the story they gave was that [TS]

00:24:28   basically they couldn't update it [TS]

00:24:30   because none of the better stuff that [TS]

00:24:32   they could fit in there could be cooled [TS]

00:24:34   inside that case so they had to design a [TS]

00:24:37   new one but they didn't they just say I [TS]

00:24:38   don't know what they did just sat on [TS]

00:24:40   their hands for several years mulling [TS]

00:24:42   over what to do all the while continuing [TS]

00:24:44   to sell that thing until he finally came [TS]

00:24:46   to this realization so I don't you know [TS]

00:24:48   again we have to wait for people to [TS]

00:24:50   retire and give the tell-all books but [TS]

00:24:51   something went wrong inside apples were [TS]

00:24:54   saying so they go wrong but with the mac [TS]

00:24:56   pro because it is [TS]

00:24:58   not a good look to sell the same [TS]

00:25:00   computer for the same price for so many [TS]

00:25:01   years and it's also not a good look to [TS]

00:25:03   only realize your mistake many many many [TS]

00:25:07   years later way way too late so late in [TS]

00:25:10   fact that you are forced to do a thing [TS]

00:25:12   that Apple never ever does which is call [TS]

00:25:15   bunch of journalists together and tell [TS]

00:25:17   them about computer you're going to [TS]

00:25:19   release in the next year like not got [TS]

00:25:21   this calendar year like hey let me tell [TS]

00:25:24   you about something it's not released [TS]

00:25:25   yet we can't even show you a picture of [TS]

00:25:27   it and be it's not going to be released [TS]

00:25:28   this year they also by the way didn't [TS]

00:25:30   say as far as an able to determine that [TS]

00:25:32   it's going to be released next year all [TS]

00:25:34   they said is not this year and [TS]

00:25:35   everybody's like oh that totally means [TS]

00:25:37   next year probably does but they're [TS]

00:25:39   covering their bases and so that means [TS]

00:25:41   that says to me that they decided very [TS]

00:25:44   very very recently on the serve the no [TS]

00:25:48   go no go on the mac pro because if they [TS]

00:25:51   had come and said guys we just want to [TS]

00:25:53   tell you there's not going to be another [TS]

00:25:56   mac pro that would make perfect sense [TS]

00:25:58   because it's like well we debated for a [TS]

00:25:59   long time while we debated we kept [TS]

00:26:01   selling this thing but in the end where [TS]

00:26:03   you know is down the toilet download [TS]

00:26:06   over to the trash can no more mac pro's [TS]

00:26:08   the imac is the future we just want to [TS]

00:26:10   let you know and let's talk about it and [TS]

00:26:12   love this explain to why we think pros [TS]

00:26:14   can use this other stuff or whatever [TS]

00:26:15   because at least that would make sense [TS]

00:26:16   for the trajectory instead they hemmed [TS]

00:26:20   it hard for four years realize the error [TS]

00:26:22   of their ways which is good but realized [TS]

00:26:24   it's so late that they have nothing to [TS]

00:26:26   say to us except we will we will make [TS]

00:26:29   good and i'm glad they what course i'm [TS]

00:26:32   glad that they're they're going to do [TS]

00:26:33   this to love to mac pro i'm glad they [TS]

00:26:35   went into specifics instead of saying [TS]

00:26:37   we're going to make new pro hardware [TS]

00:26:39   they went into specifics by saying this [TS]

00:26:41   new pro hardware will be modular in [TS]

00:26:43   their parlance there will be a separate [TS]

00:26:45   monitor and a separate computer so it's [TS]

00:26:48   not going to be like oh there's going to [TS]

00:26:49   be an awesome i like you like no dope [TS]

00:26:50   they said that is a separate thing we [TS]

00:26:51   are going to do a new or imac with fancy [TS]

00:26:53   of stuff that pros my like but also [TS]

00:26:54   there's this thing which is modular and [TS]

00:26:57   we're going to make our own displays [TS]

00:26:58   which so recently they seem to be moving [TS]

00:27:01   away from and i guess because they want [TS]

00:27:03   me not to wake in the middle of the [TS]

00:27:05   night and tremble in fear of having to [TS]

00:27:07   get a non apple monitor they're going to [TS]

00:27:09   make an apple monitor [TS]

00:27:11   the final point they made is whatever [TS]

00:27:13   this design is which they can go into [TS]

00:27:15   details about we're going to make sure [TS]

00:27:17   the with this design we can ink we can [TS]

00:27:20   upgrade the internals on on some kind of [TS]

00:27:23   schedule other than never ever upgrading [TS]

00:27:25   them right so those are the few bits of [TS]

00:27:27   information they gave about this I get [TS]

00:27:29   the impression that the same brief that [TS]

00:27:32   they gave these journalist was given to [TS]

00:27:33   apples newly formed team not too long [TS]

00:27:36   ago say we need a mac pro needs to be [TS]

00:27:38   modular we need new apple monitor and we [TS]

00:27:41   don't want the same thing that happened [TS]

00:27:42   with the trash can to happen with us we [TS]

00:27:43   need the internals to be upgradable on a [TS]

00:27:45   reasonable schedule all that is music to [TS]

00:27:47   my ears because those are all the things [TS]

00:27:48   I want to hear like the only thing they [TS]

00:27:50   could have said more was like we're [TS]

00:27:53   going to have multiple internal drives [TS]

00:27:56   and multiple internal slots they didn't [TS]

00:27:59   say that and I doubt they will do that [TS]

00:28:00   but that's the only other thing that I [TS]

00:28:02   could have even asked for my wildest [TS]

00:28:03   dreams so I am very very happy but also [TS]

00:28:06   very disappointed in Apple because they [TS]

00:28:08   know what they did they dun goofed yeah [TS]

00:28:12   they they did not do well on this old [TS]

00:28:15   Mac Pro thing I'm glad I'm glad they [TS]

00:28:18   came well you know I they messed up like [TS]

00:28:22   they even said themselves they [TS]

00:28:23   apologized they said sorry when does [TS]

00:28:25   Apple ever do that because it's not a [TS]

00:28:28   coherent thing like it would be coherent [TS]

00:28:31   if they said we slowly phase out the mac [TS]

00:28:33   pro and it disappeared and let me tell [TS]

00:28:35   you why we're not going to be in that [TS]

00:28:36   business I'm your butt to neglect the [TS]

00:28:39   mac pro like that and then have a change [TS]

00:28:41   of heart at the very last minute [TS]

00:28:42   certainly better from my perspective not [TS]

00:28:44   having a change of heart that's not good [TS]

00:28:46   for the company it's not good for the [TS]

00:28:47   image not good for the pros it's not [TS]

00:28:49   good for Apple that they have to [TS]

00:28:50   pre-announce this product which is not a [TS]

00:28:51   comfortable position for Apple to be in [TS]

00:28:53   so this was this was kind of a of Apple [TS]

00:28:59   being humble and coming hat in hand and [TS]

00:29:02   saying we're sorry we mess up this Mac [TS]

00:29:05   Pro thing let us make it up to you by [TS]

00:29:07   doing all the good things for you and [TS]

00:29:09   that's why everybody's happy because you [TS]

00:29:12   know happy and also curious about Warren [TS]

00:29:13   long but but happy to see that the [TS]

00:29:16   result we all wanted is the result we're [TS]

00:29:17   going to get if we just wait a little [TS]

00:29:20   bit longer [TS]

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00:31:26   so here's the thing like on the whole I [TS]

00:31:30   agree with you and even as someone who [TS]

00:31:33   sitting here now doesn't foresee ever [TS]

00:31:36   buying a mac pro I'm excited about this [TS]

00:31:38   I really am like I joked a lot on [TS]

00:31:40   Twitter about oh god this episode's [TS]

00:31:42   gonna be terrible but no I'm actually [TS]

00:31:43   excited to talk about it because this [TS]

00:31:46   this is good for everyone when Apple [TS]

00:31:49   commits to the the professional market [TS]

00:31:52   it's good for me as buy some definition [TS]

00:31:55   a professional because I think they [TS]

00:31:56   actually cited Xcode is one of the apps [TS]

00:32:00   they consider to be a professional app [TS]

00:32:01   and one of the apps they look for in [TS]

00:32:03   there like analytics to see who is a [TS]

00:32:05   professional and who isn't but anyway I [TS]

00:32:07   I definitely unequivocally think that [TS]

00:32:11   this was way way way too late but I [TS]

00:32:16   don't know a lot of people on Twitter [TS]

00:32:18   we're jumping straight to like Oh Apple [TS]

00:32:21   is just you know they weren't doing [TS]

00:32:23   anything until yesterday and then they [TS]

00:32:26   finally decided to do something and I [TS]

00:32:27   know I think it's unfair for us to [TS]

00:32:30   assume how long it takes to build an [TS]

00:32:33   entire new computer with an entirely new [TS]

00:32:36   design from the ground up like I agree [TS]

00:32:39   that they should have started on this a [TS]

00:32:40   while ago I agree that we should never [TS]

00:32:43   have gotten to this point but I think [TS]

00:32:46   it's a bit presumptuous for us to just [TS]

00:32:48   assume they can go to some parts bin [TS]

00:32:50   somewhere throw a few things together [TS]

00:32:51   and call it good I think that were [TS]

00:32:54   perhaps assuming the worst where it may [TS]

00:32:57   not be necessary this should have [TS]

00:32:59   absolutely happened at least a year ago [TS]

00:33:00   if not two but it doesn't mean that they [TS]

00:33:03   didn't start work on it a year ago if [TS]

00:33:05   not to what if they just didn't feel [TS]

00:33:07   compelled to tell us about it until now [TS]

00:33:10   because a bunch of whiners like those [TS]

00:33:13   guys on ATP god what a bunch of whiners [TS]

00:33:15   the three of em are what if a bunch of [TS]

00:33:17   whiners just got to the point that they [TS]

00:33:19   felt like they needed to address it once [TS]

00:33:21   and for all now I you know where that we [TS]

00:33:26   think the decision was made to do [TS]

00:33:28   something different but it's got to be [TS]

00:33:30   pretty recent I mean just use the LG [TS]

00:33:32   monitor as an example the monitor for [TS]

00:33:35   most people as a sideshow here for me [TS]

00:33:36   it's like the main show because I can [TS]

00:33:38   tell you that [TS]

00:33:38   if they if they had said we're gonna [TS]

00:33:41   make a new mac pro but we're still not [TS]

00:33:43   making apple monitors I would still be [TS]

00:33:45   like maybe I'll get an imac right that's [TS]

00:33:47   just me personally right but very [TS]

00:33:49   recently as recently as one was it like [TS]

00:33:50   october i don't know whenever they they [TS]

00:33:54   came out with the the the new MacBook [TS]

00:33:56   Pros with the LG display right and they [TS]

00:33:58   talked to the press about it and the [TS]

00:34:00   press would ask them so you know should [TS]

00:34:02   we get an apple monitor River like no we [TS]

00:34:04   this this LG monitor is the one we want [TS]

00:34:06   it's on our store we're fully behind it [TS]

00:34:08   so on and so forth and then through [TS]

00:34:10   back-channel communication to someone on [TS]

00:34:11   Twitter to say basically apples out of [TS]

00:34:13   stand-alone display business this is [TS]

00:34:15   recent stuff if as you suggest in case [TS]

00:34:18   you that perhaps they've been working on [TS]

00:34:19   this new Mac Pro for over a year there's [TS]

00:34:21   no way they would have told everybody [TS]

00:34:24   that Apple's out of the standalone [TS]

00:34:26   display business through whatever back [TS]

00:34:28   channels they did maybe they still would [TS]

00:34:29   have said by the lg1 anyway because the [TS]

00:34:32   new apple honor isn't coming up for a [TS]

00:34:33   long time but yeah there are long lead [TS]

00:34:35   times these things uh but not it doesn't [TS]

00:34:38   take three years to make a monitor right [TS]

00:34:40   like time was when Apple would make new [TS]

00:34:43   products every year and yeah they have [TS]

00:34:44   overlapping schedules and stuff like [TS]

00:34:45   that which by the way is why i think the [TS]

00:34:48   time that Apple needs to start making [TS]

00:34:49   the next trash can is before the [TS]

00:34:51   previous one is released like that's [TS]

00:34:52   usually how these things overlap like [TS]

00:34:53   that the new iphone is in the works at [TS]

00:34:56   the time the current iphone is released [TS]

00:34:58   that's the only way you could have [TS]

00:34:59   usually releases of anything right so [TS]

00:35:01   it's not as if you can release the trash [TS]

00:35:02   can right and 20 late 2013 and then [TS]

00:35:07   after the trash cans really start [TS]

00:35:08   working on the next one you're already [TS]

00:35:10   late at that point let alone release the [TS]

00:35:12   trash can wait a year or two and then [TS]

00:35:14   start working on the successor that's [TS]

00:35:16   just too long if you're one of the [TS]

00:35:17   things that the commitments of the pro [TS]

00:35:19   market and it's what they talked about [TS]

00:35:20   is you have to have some product that [TS]

00:35:24   you can update because the whole point [TS]

00:35:26   of this product is the biggest fastest [TS]

00:35:29   computer apple sells and if you don't [TS]

00:35:34   update it eventually your phone has [TS]

00:35:36   faster single threaded performance than [TS]

00:35:37   that they handle me like in the most [TS]

00:35:38   extreme case you you have to update it's [TS]

00:35:41   the role of this computer the only [TS]

00:35:43   reason it exists is to be the biggest [TS]

00:35:44   fastest thing as soon as it's not big as [TS]

00:35:46   fast as people like well why am i buying [TS]

00:35:47   this why don't I buy a 13-inch laptop [TS]

00:35:49   that has a better cpu speed or faster [TS]

00:35:52   d or has you know Thunderbolt 3 and this [TS]

00:35:55   top end thing doesn't like it loses its [TS]

00:35:57   purpose without updates so they were [TS]

00:36:00   super duper late and it seems to me that [TS]

00:36:02   if they can't even promise a 20-18 [TS]

00:36:05   release of this thing they started [TS]

00:36:07   sometime you know in in the past year [TS]

00:36:12   alright easily you may maybe in the past [TS]

00:36:14   six months because is it it's not like [TS]

00:36:16   the thing we're asking about when did [TS]

00:36:18   they make the call when did they make [TS]

00:36:19   the decision because they seem to make [TS]

00:36:21   no decision for really really long time [TS]

00:36:22   and then they made a decision and part [TS]

00:36:24   of that decision was given that we made [TS]

00:36:26   this decision look at our timelines when [TS]

00:36:29   will we actually be able to show a [TS]

00:36:30   product it will hurt us a lot to just do [TS]

00:36:33   the normal apple thing which is not tell [TS]

00:36:34   anybody until the product comes out [TS]

00:36:35   because by then everyone will completely [TS]

00:36:38   a written off Apple as a pro hardware [TS]

00:36:41   vendor so we need to make the decision [TS]

00:36:44   and then the even harder decision we're [TS]

00:36:45   just now we have to tell people we have [TS]

00:36:47   to tell people that we kind of started [TS]

00:36:48   this new project because if we don't by [TS]

00:36:50   the time we release it they'll all be [TS]

00:36:51   gone they all will have left the block [TS]

00:36:52   hey guys we have a new Mac Pro we didn't [TS]

00:36:54   wanna tell you about it for the past [TS]

00:36:55   year and a half that we've been [TS]

00:36:56   developing it but we totally have a new [TS]

00:36:57   one it's like too late we all left you [TS]

00:36:59   neglected us right so they had to come [TS]

00:37:01   out and tell us that at some point in [TS]

00:37:03   the future defined as not this year [TS]

00:37:06   there will be a new Mac Pro which was [TS]

00:37:08   the right thing to do but it is it is a [TS]

00:37:10   is them coming from a position of [TS]

00:37:11   weakness and it makes me think that this [TS]

00:37:13   decision was not made and that the team [TS]

00:37:16   to make this new Mac Pro was not tasked [TS]

00:37:18   with doing so any time longer than maybe [TS]

00:37:23   like 12 months ago and I would guess [TS]

00:37:25   maybe six months ago yeah I would say [TS]

00:37:27   that's because like you know we we know [TS]

00:37:29   from various like tips and rumblings [TS]

00:37:31   here and there that like there were [TS]

00:37:33   occasional efforts in Apple to [TS]

00:37:36   investigate news eons and stuff but that [TS]

00:37:39   there was never any suggestion by [TS]

00:37:42   anybody any rumors any tipsters anybody [TS]

00:37:44   that that was actually becoming a [TS]

00:37:45   product for you know it anywhere close [TS]

00:37:48   to a product I really do think that this [TS]

00:37:51   probably became a priority six months [TS]

00:37:53   ago and that's how they determined by [TS]

00:37:55   the way that's how they determine [TS]

00:37:56   probably their thermal limits like they [TS]

00:37:58   have the cylinder and we kept hearing [TS]

00:38:00   rumors from all sorts of weird sources [TS]

00:38:02   like I looking at this chip all looking [TS]

00:38:04   at that chip but look at this GP [TS]

00:38:06   like maybe they tried all sorts of like [TS]

00:38:08   component upgrades the trash can and [TS]

00:38:10   every time they tried it it was either [TS]

00:38:12   not a big enough win or they couldn't [TS]

00:38:14   deal with the thermals right and it was [TS]

00:38:16   just kind of like well do we want to [TS]

00:38:17   bother through going through with this [TS]

00:38:19   should we make it a product maybe wait [TS]

00:38:20   for next year maybe it'll be better we [TS]

00:38:22   have this prop like federighi federighi [TS]

00:38:25   explanation is basically like they [TS]

00:38:26   couldn't put better stuff in that [TS]

00:38:27   cylinder did they you know they had [TS]

00:38:30   designed ourselves into a bit of a [TS]

00:38:32   thermal corner and the fact that they [TS]

00:38:36   continued to try to tinker with that [TS]

00:38:38   every time there was a new cpu or GPU [TS]

00:38:40   but never actually released anything [TS]

00:38:42   fits with that idea that it wasn't like [TS]

00:38:45   they were you know opposed to making new [TS]

00:38:47   Mac Pro's is they couldn't make new [TS]

00:38:49   macro that a major investment and they [TS]

00:38:50   come back and say okay well we can't put [TS]

00:38:52   new stuff in the cylinder sorry about [TS]

00:38:54   that oops can we make a whole totally [TS]

00:38:56   new Mac Pro and then it was like well [TS]

00:38:58   that seems like expensive and not a lot [TS]

00:39:01   of people buy this and they just kept [TS]

00:39:02   doing that and doing that and you know [TS]

00:39:04   externally we see nothing we just you [TS]

00:39:05   know we have the same mac pro as always [TS]

00:39:07   in just a bunch of you know rumors and [TS]

00:39:10   eventually has to come to head say look [TS]

00:39:12   are we in this business are we not in [TS]

00:39:14   this business in the decision they made [TS]

00:39:16   which I'm very happy with this yes we [TS]

00:39:18   are in this business we're going to [TS]

00:39:19   rededicate ourselves and we're not going [TS]

00:39:22   to make the same mistake twice nobody [TS]

00:39:24   pokes new mac pro in a corner in a [TS]

00:39:25   thermal corner that's like that since [TS]

00:39:29   acknowledged yeah reference that [TS]

00:39:30   knowledge so boy it's I would not want [TS]

00:39:35   to been in these meetings but I am so [TS]

00:39:37   glad so glad they they made I can't even [TS]

00:39:39   say it's the right decision I don't know [TS]

00:39:40   if it's the right decision for ample but [TS]

00:39:42   its decision that I wanted actually yes [TS]

00:39:43   I think it is the right decision travel [TS]

00:39:45   because if Apple's not going to be in [TS]

00:39:47   the Pro market then what the hell's the [TS]

00:39:49   point of Apple like we're just going to [TS]

00:39:50   be a phone company I think that's not [TS]

00:39:52   that's not the Apple we all believe in [TS]

00:39:54   and it's clearly not the apple of it all [TS]

00:39:57   the people who come to these meetings [TS]

00:39:58   and profess undying love for the Mac [TS]

00:40:00   believe in either well and I think it's [TS]

00:40:02   it's more than that it's that like if [TS]

00:40:03   Apple decides that iOS is the only OS [TS]

00:40:07   and their future then that's one thing [TS]

00:40:09   but if the mac as a platform is going to [TS]

00:40:12   continue they need to keep building pro [TS]

00:40:14   hardware yeah I mean but but is the imac [TS]

00:40:18   pro enough and i think we'll talk about [TS]

00:40:19   that [TS]

00:40:20   later but the one thing that that [TS]

00:40:22   strikes me about this late I suspect you [TS]

00:40:24   guys are right and that it was very [TS]

00:40:25   recent him in the last 12 months or so [TS]

00:40:28   that that Apple got really serious about [TS]

00:40:31   replacing the mac pro but it seems a [TS]

00:40:34   little disingenuous to me for us to say [TS]

00:40:36   Oh surely they have mac OS running on [TS]

00:40:39   arm you know surely they're doing that [TS]

00:40:41   why would they not I mean I I know [TS]

00:40:43   hardware is different but don't you [TS]

00:40:45   think they would have been doing more [TS]

00:40:47   than just piddling with a a new mac pro [TS]

00:40:50   for all this time maybe there were only [TS]

00:40:52   a handful of people on it maybe they [TS]

00:40:54   weren't taking it too seriously but if I [TS]

00:40:56   feel like why wouldn't you at least have [TS]

00:40:58   that in the hopper just in case now to [TS]

00:41:01   your point a minute ago both of you [TS]

00:41:02   maybe that didn't start until like two [TS]

00:41:05   years ago or one year ago or what have [TS]

00:41:07   you but I feel laughs a year ago well [TS]

00:41:09   and that's not going to be not going to [TS]

00:41:10   be two years ago they would be they [TS]

00:41:12   would be done by now those two years [TS]

00:41:13   especially since this like in the I know [TS]

00:41:15   so here's the thing there's attention [TS]

00:41:17   with that bowl between make an amazing [TS]

00:41:19   new thing which I think traffic and [TS]

00:41:21   qualifies out like you haven't seen a PC [TS]

00:41:23   like this before look at this thing [TS]

00:41:24   isn't it weird and crazy and awesome [TS]

00:41:25   like they want to do that but then [TS]

00:41:28   there's schedule pressure so as many [TS]

00:41:29   people pointed out they can make a [TS]

00:41:30   rectangular box with nice finishes on it [TS]

00:41:32   shove a bunch of crap in and be done but [TS]

00:41:33   they don't want to do that so they're [TS]

00:41:35   going to take longer than it would take [TS]

00:41:37   to just slap together some basically a [TS]

00:41:38   pc that runs mac OS right the question [TS]

00:41:41   is how much longer will he take and if [TS]

00:41:43   they had started two years ago even with [TS]

00:41:46   the most obsessive you know a paul [TS]

00:41:49   craftsmanship they could they could have [TS]

00:41:52   had something to show today right so [TS]

00:41:54   that makes me think again they had to [TS]

00:41:56   have started this in the last calendar [TS]

00:41:58   year at you know that's the longest i'm [TS]

00:42:01   going to say this goes back and probably [TS]

00:42:02   even closer yeah and so i think it's [TS]

00:42:05   also worth kind of putting the 2013 [TS]

00:42:08   trash can in context a little bit to [TS]

00:42:12   figure out like why they still care and [TS]

00:42:14   and maybe what they can do to avoid [TS]

00:42:17   another problem like this so in addition [TS]

00:42:20   to the reasons that that John always [TS]

00:42:22   likes to say about like you know the [TS]

00:42:24   halo car knowledge intervals which I [TS]

00:42:25   agree with so it actually sells better [TS]

00:42:28   than I thought thanks so one of the [TS]

00:42:30   things that came out in this meeting [TS]

00:42:31   what they said that desktops are twenty [TS]

00:42:33   percent [TS]

00:42:33   of mac sales which that alone is higher [TS]

00:42:36   than I would have guessed you know [TS]

00:42:38   laptops are most people's computers [TS]

00:42:40   these days so the fact that desktops [TS]

00:42:42   still have twenty percent is pretty good [TS]

00:42:44   I think they said that met the Mac Pro [TS]

00:42:47   is in the low single-digit percentage of [TS]

00:42:50   those mac sales if that's one percent [TS]

00:42:53   which is the lowest that their estimate [TS]

00:42:56   would really mean that is about 200,000 [TS]

00:42:59   mac / as a year now that i think is like [TS]

00:43:03   one percent of mac sales and two hundred [TS]

00:43:05   i think that's actually really good for [TS]

00:43:08   because that's not the sales of the mac [TS]

00:43:10   pro in its launch year when it's updated [TS]

00:43:13   that's the sales of the mac pro now like [TS]

00:43:16   this three year old like lame duck [TS]

00:43:18   machine like that's the sales of that [TS]

00:43:20   now so i think it's remarkable that it [TS]

00:43:23   still sells that well i didn't that says [TS]

00:43:26   that the the market for these things is [TS]

00:43:27   probably bigger than a lot of us were [TS]

00:43:29   were and were estimating because if this [TS]

00:43:32   machine that's three years old and [TS]

00:43:34   wasn't even that compelling when it was [TS]

00:43:36   new very free talking to in a second if [TS]

00:43:38   that can still sell 200,000 units a year [TS]

00:43:41   that's amazing italy and so i decided to [TS]

00:43:45   look up a couple stats i did some [TS]

00:43:47   homework that is reflect that that is [TS]

00:43:51   roughly equivalent i translated this [TS]

00:43:52   into term to understand kc to the sales [TS]

00:43:54   volume of the BMW x5 so well done yeah [TS]

00:44:00   that's roughly what the x5 cells every [TS]

00:44:02   year worldwide and that's a fairly [TS]

00:44:04   popular model in their lineup so the [TS]

00:44:06   fact that like you know that a car cans [TS]

00:44:09   and oh and by the way it's also double [TS]

00:44:11   the total sales volume of Tesla so like [TS]

00:44:15   you know if if it's selling in this kind [TS]

00:44:18   of volume if like a car company can [TS]

00:44:20   justify having a car an entire car model [TS]

00:44:23   with all the customization that goes [TS]

00:44:24   into that and supporting everything else [TS]

00:44:25   Apple can justify having a machine that [TS]

00:44:28   only sells to this relatively small [TS]

00:44:30   audience for you know compared to their [TS]

00:44:31   whole product line well but what's the [TS]

00:44:33   profit off of each of these devices Leo [TS]

00:44:36   the profit off of an x5 one would hope [TS]

00:44:37   would be many many many thousands of [TS]

00:44:39   dollars what's the profit off of a [TS]

00:44:41   trashcan Mac Pro oh no I mean no [TS]

00:44:44   questions the the raw alone actually I [TS]

00:44:46   wouldn't assume that the [TS]

00:44:47   it's our that massive on cars maybe Im [TS]

00:44:49   lugged your cars especially if you get [TS]

00:44:51   like the floor mats but I think they're [TS]

00:44:54   the costs of developing a new mac pro [TS]

00:44:57   line especially if it's kind of [TS]

00:45:00   reasonably done are probably low enough [TS]

00:45:03   compared to developing a whole car you [TS]

00:45:05   know that I think that's they're [TS]

00:45:06   probably they're probably okay there but [TS]

00:45:09   anyway I did want to briefly go into [TS]

00:45:12   exactly what went wrong with 2013 mac [TS]

00:45:15   pro 2 so that we can kind so that we and [TS]

00:45:18   as commentators and hopefully if anybody [TS]

00:45:20   at Apple is listening I assume you know [TS]

00:45:22   they're all smart people they're [TS]

00:45:24   considering these things too but I just [TS]

00:45:25   want to say it just in case because I [TS]

00:45:27   think there's important lessons to learn [TS]

00:45:28   here and I really hope they have learned [TS]

00:45:31   them so quick summary when the 2013 came [TS]

00:45:34   out it costs more than the previous [TS]

00:45:37   model but it accommodated fewer people's [TS]

00:45:39   needs and so that'll even when it was [TS]

00:45:43   brand-new that on day one once all the [TS]

00:45:45   configs and pricing were up a lot of [TS]

00:45:48   people did not like it very much and a [TS]

00:45:50   lot of pro said oh never mind because it [TS]

00:45:52   was so much more limited than the [TS]

00:45:54   previous ones and it gave up all the [TS]

00:45:56   drive bays all the slots a lot of the [TS]

00:45:58   RAM expansion capabilities GPU replace [TS]

00:46:01   ability GPU options CP dual cpu dual [TS]

00:46:05   socket options like there was so so much [TS]

00:46:07   stuff that was given up so it really did [TS]

00:46:10   a lot less and it cost more and so [TS]

00:46:13   that's like whatever Apple does next [TS]

00:46:16   they have to learn a lesson from that [TS]

00:46:18   wasn't they choose to follow it or not [TS]

00:46:20   that's something to learn also it also [TS]

00:46:23   suffered from just kind of bad market [TS]

00:46:25   timing relative to the rest of the [TS]

00:46:26   industry so almost immediately the 5k [TS]

00:46:31   screen right you know revolution [TS]

00:46:32   happened it was like it was like nine [TS]

00:46:34   months into the mac pro when when 5k [TS]

00:46:37   screens came out in the imac and the Mac [TS]

00:46:39   Pro has no good way to drive a 5k screen [TS]

00:46:41   and an apple doesn't sell one step ahead [TS]

00:46:44   and and when they did finally get around [TS]

00:46:46   to launching one last fall it doesn't [TS]

00:46:48   work with 2013 mac pro at least i think [TS]

00:46:50   we keep hearing random hacks about how [TS]

00:46:52   it the stores are kind of hacking it to [TS]

00:46:54   work but basically it doesn't work and [TS]

00:46:57   so it missed the 5k revolution by a very [TS]

00:47:00   short time [TS]

00:47:01   and a lot of pros like myself [TS]

00:47:04   prioritized having that Retina screen [TS]

00:47:07   over having those additional cores and [TS]

00:47:08   everything also right after that model [TS]

00:47:11   came out the next generation of [TS]

00:47:13   processors that Apple of course didn't [TS]

00:47:14   use increase single-threaded performance [TS]

00:47:16   noticeably and so what happened was [TS]

00:47:18   within a very short time of the Mac Pro [TS]

00:47:20   being released within about a year it [TS]

00:47:23   was unable to drive the best screens [TS]

00:47:25   that the highest end buyers wanted and [TS]

00:47:27   it was defeated in a lot of like [TS]

00:47:30   single-threaded performance tasks and a [TS]

00:47:32   lot of benchmarks it was it was there [TS]

00:47:34   beaten completely or in the case of like [TS]

00:47:37   the six core like it could it could [TS]

00:47:39   barely edged out in multi-threaded but [TS]

00:47:41   you know that wasn't all work so it was [TS]

00:47:44   it badly timed in the market and they [TS]

00:47:46   don't forget about us bc one more [TS]

00:47:48   revolution that has about the product [TS]

00:47:50   line USBC also came along and guess who [TS]

00:47:52   didn't get that then I felt like [TS]

00:47:54   terrible timing in terms of peripheral [TS]

00:47:56   like it wouldn't have been terrible [TS]

00:47:57   timing if it was on the yearly update [TS]

00:47:58   schedule be like Oh next year the Mac [TS]

00:48:00   Pro will get updated it will get the new [TS]

00:48:02   chips it will get us bc if we get [TS]

00:48:04   Thunderbolt 3 it will be able to drive a [TS]

00:48:05   5k display that but but again the [TS]

00:48:09   thermal corner uh apparently they just [TS]

00:48:11   plain couldn't do that exactly and then [TS]

00:48:14   also by by limiting it to a single CPU [TS]

00:48:18   and dual GPU configuration you know they [TS]

00:48:22   were making a big bet that this is going [TS]

00:48:24   to be the future of pro computing [TS]

00:48:26   unfortunately it wasn't the present of [TS]

00:48:28   pro computing at the time and the the [TS]

00:48:30   future took a different direction and [TS]

00:48:32   and they were betting that just having [TS]

00:48:34   this one set of trade-offs this one cpu [TS]

00:48:38   to workstation GPUs that was going to [TS]

00:48:41   solve all pro needs or all needs of the [TS]

00:48:43   Mac Pro customers at least that was [TS]

00:48:45   wrong even in 2013 and it never became [TS]

00:48:48   correct you know they were betting big [TS]

00:48:50   on opencl and that really didn't pan out [TS]

00:48:52   beyond a very small number of [TS]

00:48:54   specialized uses and they were also they [TS]

00:48:57   never really supported it very well in [TS]

00:48:58   mac OS either and so i think another [TS]

00:49:01   lesson to learn here is that whatever [TS]

00:49:04   direction the Mac Pro takes it can't [TS]

00:49:08   rely on highly specialized OS features [TS]

00:49:12   very much because chances are it's never [TS]

00:49:14   going to have the [TS]

00:49:15   priority with an apple and the [TS]

00:49:17   engineering priority to devote a lot of [TS]

00:49:20   engineering time to optimizing the OS [TS]

00:49:22   for this machine that sells to one [TS]

00:49:24   percent of the user base like they're [TS]

00:49:25   never going to do that so it can't [TS]

00:49:28   depend on weird like you know edge case [TS]

00:49:31   technologies like opencl has turned out [TS]

00:49:34   to be you know if it can handle it well [TS]

00:49:37   that's one thing but that can't be the [TS]

00:49:38   main focus of the machine if they did do [TS]

00:49:40   a lot of OS changes to support the dual [TS]

00:49:43   GPUs because remember one of them was [TS]

00:49:44   like oh you can you could address them [TS]

00:49:45   individually and use one for compute and [TS]

00:49:47   one for graphics and they have that [TS]

00:49:48   whole demo of the 3d application that [TS]

00:49:50   Pixar was using so they they actually [TS]

00:49:52   added OSAP eyes to make it so that [TS]

00:49:55   people could write programs to take [TS]

00:49:56   advantage of this machine but the only [TS]

00:49:58   way anybody like any pro app vendor is [TS]

00:50:01   going to change their program to take [TS]

00:50:04   advantage of this new fancy hardware is [TS]

00:50:07   if doing so gives them some kind of [TS]

00:50:09   advantage like okay well this is weird [TS]

00:50:11   hardware and we you know but Apple gives [TS]

00:50:14   us API is and we can address these two [TS]

00:50:16   GPUs and control them and do interesting [TS]

00:50:18   things if we do this if we make this big [TS]

00:50:20   investment and rejigger our application [TS]

00:50:22   and use these new ApS what is the payoff [TS]

00:50:24   and if the payoff is performance that [TS]

00:50:26   still doesn't match a plain old windows [TS]

00:50:29   pc with a big stonking single GPU in it [TS]

00:50:32   well why would we do that why would we [TS]

00:50:34   spend all this time we're rewriting our [TS]

00:50:36   thing to get worse performance that we [TS]

00:50:38   get if we just leave our application [TS]

00:50:39   exactly the way it is and get you know a [TS]

00:50:42   geforce 1080 whatever the the [TS]

00:50:45   top-of-the-line thing was at the time [TS]

00:50:47   why don't you why would we bother doing [TS]

00:50:49   it so people didn't rewrite their [TS]

00:50:51   programs even though there were api's [TS]

00:50:52   and those api's themselves didn't get [TS]

00:50:55   expanded and supported and everything [TS]

00:50:57   because there was no one writing for [TS]

00:50:58   them so it was it was an ecosystem that [TS]

00:51:00   never materialized for hardware that was [TS]

00:51:02   never good enough to justify the [TS]

00:51:04   investment and very quickly became [TS]

00:51:06   embarrassingly not good enough as as you [TS]

00:51:08   mentioned as every other standard and [TS]

00:51:11   peripheral and the capability just [TS]

00:51:13   passed it by on even on Apple's on in [TS]

00:51:15   frequently updated machines right and [TS]

00:51:17   then and they also had execution flaws [TS]

00:51:19   even with this one model like the GP [TS]

00:51:22   like you know they're talking now about [TS]

00:51:24   how the thermals prevented them from [TS]

00:51:26   updating it very very well [TS]

00:51:28   the thermals were a problem then to it [TS]

00:51:30   this machine anybody who's ever owned [TS]

00:51:32   one of these or especially anybody who's [TS]

00:51:34   had to manage more than one of them like [TS]

00:51:35   certain you know developer studios or [TS]

00:51:37   visual effects places that have had [TS]

00:51:39   multiple 2013 Mac Pro's the GPUs die all [TS]

00:51:42   the time Apple's doing tons of warranty [TS]

00:51:45   replacements on those the only reason it [TS]

00:51:47   hasn't become like a big known scandal [TS]

00:51:49   or thing is because this is a you know [TS]

00:51:51   relatively unpopular product so not a [TS]

00:51:53   lot of people have them but anyone who [TS]

00:51:55   does have it knows that there's tons of [TS]

00:51:57   GPU overheating problems and they die [TS]

00:51:59   all the time and on top of that to make [TS]

00:52:03   a GPU focused machine that's that takes [TS]

00:52:07   us huge bet on GPUs be in the future and [TS]

00:52:09   then not updating it for three years [TS]

00:52:11   like GPUs change like every nine months [TS]

00:52:13   like it's it's a pretty fast moving part [TS]

00:52:16   of the hardware development so it was a [TS]

00:52:19   huge design flaw even then to design [TS]

00:52:23   something that could barely cool the [TS]

00:52:25   GPUs it had and then with not only [TS]

00:52:27   apparently no Headroom to cool future [TS]

00:52:29   ones but also to not update this machine [TS]

00:52:32   at all for three and a half years at [TS]

00:52:34   least and prop what's probably going to [TS]

00:52:35   end up being four and a half to five [TS]

00:52:37   that's a massive just error in just how [TS]

00:52:41   it was an execution flaw simple as that [TS]

00:52:43   I will say though like as much as I bag [TS]

00:52:47   in this machine like redesigning the [TS]

00:52:50   tower like the cheese grater typical pc [TS]

00:52:53   tower I mean it was more than tip it was [TS]

00:52:54   a really good one but redesigning the [TS]

00:52:57   tower in 2013 was a good idea and it [TS]

00:53:01   remains a good idea today they should [TS]

00:53:03   not just put new components in the old [TS]

00:53:06   cheese grater and ship that as the new [TS]

00:53:08   thing because there's lots of like old [TS]

00:53:11   baggage that is no longer necessary in [TS]

00:53:14   the pc tower so doing a design doing a [TS]

00:53:17   redesign is the right move it diggers [TS]

00:53:20   did the bitches didn't to the right one [TS]

00:53:22   like they chose a battery design they [TS]

00:53:23   went the wrong direction when they [TS]

00:53:25   admitted that yeah those like my blog [TS]

00:53:27   post back in before the new mac pro 2013 [TS]

00:53:29   begging for them to make a new Mac Pro [TS]

00:53:32   the case for new Mac Pro successor like [TS]

00:53:35   everything you said about the the trash [TS]

00:53:37   can I agree with and you know [TS]

00:53:38   was kind of you know you could have [TS]

00:53:41   predicted these mistakes at the time [TS]

00:53:42   because it didn't suit our needs but [TS]

00:53:43   like well maybe there's other audiences [TS]

00:53:44   for them it could have worked out but [TS]

00:53:46   either way to where they worked out it [TS]

00:53:47   didn't they made mistakes they were [TS]

00:53:48   there were a bad time with 5k displays [TS]

00:53:50   in the USBC and Thunderbolt 3 you can't [TS]

00:53:53   say that we make fun of the can innovate [TS]

00:53:56   anymore my ass the phil schiller thing [TS]

00:53:58   but that was mostly because they failed [TS]

00:54:00   to update it this was like an innovative [TS]

00:54:03   machine they tried something new and [TS]

00:54:06   bold and daring and they were trying to [TS]

00:54:08   make the best mac that there could be it [TS]

00:54:12   was so different from any other max if [TS]

00:54:14   they're ever had been before and there [TS]

00:54:17   have been since so different in so many [TS]

00:54:19   ways that I give them full marks for [TS]

00:54:21   doing what I asked him to do which is [TS]

00:54:24   try to do your best turns out this [TS]

00:54:26   wasn't a good idea but you can't say [TS]

00:54:28   they didn't try you can't say like and [TS]

00:54:29   again I would have you know been more [TS]

00:54:31   disappointed to say oh here's another [TS]

00:54:32   cheese grater right like because that's [TS]

00:54:34   not that's not really trying this is [TS]

00:54:36   kind of business as usual status quo [TS]

00:54:38   which is better than nothing but I I do [TS]

00:54:42   give them full marks for for introducing [TS]

00:54:45   it which is why even though I didn't buy [TS]

00:54:46   one I was very happy that it existed I [TS]

00:54:48   was pinning my hopes on okay they're [TS]

00:54:50   either going to keep updating this and [TS]

00:54:51   I'll buy the one that can drive the [TS]

00:54:52   retina display remember those days when [TS]

00:54:53   I was talking about that and same thing [TS]

00:54:55   for this new one in the same way it's [TS]

00:54:57   like well they could make some kind of [TS]

00:54:58   rectangular box and sell it and they [TS]

00:55:01   could get that out sooner I'm willing to [TS]

00:55:03   wait for them to try something [TS]

00:55:04   innovative they just need to make a [TS]

00:55:07   different set of trade-offs with this [TS]

00:55:08   design building on what they've learned [TS]

00:55:10   but I totally like the idea of them [TS]

00:55:12   because if they're just going to make a [TS]

00:55:13   box i know people want them to do that [TS]

00:55:15   just make me like a rectangular pc that [TS]

00:55:18   I can run mac OS on which i'm sure some [TS]

00:55:20   people would like but I I want more than [TS]

00:55:23   that from Apple I mean even even the [TS]

00:55:24   cheese grater is like you said market [TS]

00:55:26   it's not just at our case it is a really [TS]

00:55:28   cool really good really interesting [TS]

00:55:30   tower case that has many innovations [TS]

00:55:32   inside and out and turned out to be a [TS]

00:55:35   good design that they kept for a long [TS]

00:55:36   time just just do that again Apple [TS]

00:55:39   that's a hard just be successful all the [TS]

00:55:40   time yeah well liked and I think you [TS]

00:55:43   know looking back you as you said like [TS]

00:55:45   they did something you know as federighi [TS]

00:55:47   sevens interview he said we wanted to do [TS]

00:55:48   something bold and different with the [TS]

00:55:50   2013 one and he said it's good for [TS]

00:55:52   but it does not address the full range [TS]

00:55:54   of Mac Pro customers and I think this is [TS]

00:55:56   the nut right here like Apple is really [TS]

00:56:00   good at being bold and different and [TS]

00:56:02   they pride themselves on that they they [TS]

00:56:05   really try to do that with with muck [TS]

00:56:08   with much of what they do the problem is [TS]

00:56:10   that if you only make bold and different [TS]

00:56:13   product line joyce's then the overall [TS]

00:56:16   product line will suffer because you [TS]

00:56:18   need general-purpose products to fill [TS]

00:56:21   the gaps and satisfy the most needs and [TS]

00:56:24   the Mac Pro the hole the purpose of this [TS]

00:56:26   machine is to serve a bunch of those [TS]

00:56:29   edge cases and you can't just make one [TS]

00:56:32   super focused design like this you know [TS]

00:56:34   one cpu 2 pro GPUs no slots nothing else [TS]

00:56:37   like you can't do that kind of like bold [TS]

00:56:40   and different design for this particular [TS]

00:56:42   product line because all of the [TS]

00:56:43   different edge cases that the Mac Pro [TS]

00:56:45   needs to satisfy are all different from [TS]

00:56:47   each other so no single narrow design [TS]

00:56:50   like this can satisfy them the old Mac [TS]

00:56:52   Pro cheese grater could be configured in [TS]

00:56:54   completely different ways for depending [TS]

00:56:57   on what the customer needed and there [TS]

00:56:59   was a huge range of what that could do [TS]

00:57:01   and that's the kind of flexibility this [TS]

00:57:03   product line needs Mac Pro buyers they [TS]

00:57:06   don't need cool and bold and different [TS]

00:57:09   they need versatile powerful and kept up [TS]

00:57:12   to date and it can be innovative to like [TS]

00:57:14   like the Yosemite case before Yosemite [TS]

00:57:17   was the name of an operating system it [TS]

00:57:19   was a code name for a tower case [TS]

00:57:21   designed by Apple that was like a tower [TS]

00:57:23   it's like a vertical rectangular solid [TS]

00:57:25   like but Apple did its thing hey ours [TS]

00:57:27   has handles on all four corners NRS has [TS]

00:57:29   a side panel that folds down and the [TS]

00:57:31   motherboard was on the side panel at [TS]

00:57:33   that point look how easy it is to open [TS]

00:57:34   this thing up and here's the ram mandir [TS]

00:57:35   is the GPU and you can change your hard [TS]

00:57:37   drives and they use that design for two [TS]

00:57:40   generations the g3 in the g4 and well [TS]

00:57:42   more if you can't like your drive door [TS]

00:57:44   and the wind tunnels and all the other [TS]

00:57:46   stuff and then came the cheese grater [TS]

00:57:47   with the power mac g5 still four handles [TS]

00:57:50   but a different design aluminum and look [TS]

00:57:52   how easy it is to slide the hard drives [TS]

00:57:54   in and out and there's a little panel [TS]

00:57:55   that comes off the side and look how [TS]

00:57:56   much room we have her fans and the [TS]

00:57:58   computer-controlled fans and all those [TS]

00:57:59   other stuff like both of those designs [TS]

00:58:01   were innovative and interesting but like [TS]

00:58:03   marker was saying they were they could [TS]

00:58:05   be there were [TS]

00:58:06   modular they could be configured to [TS]

00:58:08   different needs you could choose what [TS]

00:58:10   you wanted to put in them and make the [TS]

00:58:11   computer that you needed if instead they [TS]

00:58:14   had made an innovative like the g4 cube [TS]

00:58:16   is a good example like the g4 cube is [TS]

00:58:18   basically a trash can before its time [TS]

00:58:19   here's one computer with one specific [TS]

00:58:21   set of trade-offs and you can't change [TS]

00:58:23   those trade-offs at all and if it [TS]

00:58:24   doesn't suit your needs you're out of [TS]

00:58:26   luck the g4 cube did not do well in the [TS]

00:58:29   market despite being a cool cute little [TS]

00:58:31   computer to it you know to address the [TS]

00:58:34   pro market you either need to have a [TS]

00:58:36   bunch of different models each of which [TS]

00:58:38   satisfies a need or some kind of system [TS]

00:58:40   that you can configure to serve [TS]

00:58:42   different people's needs via they can [TS]

00:58:44   configure themselves with their party [TS]

00:58:45   things that they can configure on your [TS]

00:58:46   store by picking from pop-up menus how [TS]

00:58:49   much storage how many drives how many [TS]

00:58:50   GPUs what kind of GPUs how much memory [TS]

00:58:52   all those things and I think too like [TS]

00:58:55   it's important to recognize when they [TS]

00:58:59   were designing the trash can in 2013 I [TS]

00:59:01   don't think they necessarily forgot what [TS]

00:59:04   pros need I think they were they were [TS]

00:59:07   swayed by both a bit of hubris and also [TS]

00:59:11   the times you know back then the reason [TS]

00:59:13   why Phil Schiller said can't innovate [TS]

00:59:16   anymore my ass and the reason that got a [TS]

00:59:18   huge applause besides the fact that [TS]

00:59:20   hilarious hearing that from him is that [TS]

00:59:22   at the time there was a huge [TS]

00:59:24   overwhelming press and analyst narrative [TS]

00:59:27   of Apple not being able to innovate [TS]

00:59:29   anymore and that Samsung was doing all [TS]

00:59:32   the innovation this was a huge thing in [TS]

00:59:34   2013 that Samsung was taking the [TS]

00:59:36   innovation crown and of course you know [TS]

00:59:38   we were all trying to get like what do [TS]

00:59:39   they mean by innovation exactly but like [TS]

00:59:40   that was a massive thing that everybody [TS]

00:59:43   was saying about Apple the press the [TS]

00:59:45   stock people every thought every one [TS]

00:59:46   saying Apple can't innovate anymore [TS]

00:59:48   Samsung's innovating and it turned out [TS]

00:59:50   that all that was was big phones because [TS]

00:59:52   Apple didn't have to pick folks yet that [TS]

00:59:54   turns out all Appling need to do to it [TS]

00:59:56   to out-innovate samsung was to make the [TS]

00:59:58   same size phone to sams nice [TS]

00:59:58   same size phone to sams nice [TS]

01:00:00   but that pretty much solve that problem [TS]

01:00:02   for them but I feel like that narrative [TS]

01:00:05   really got to them and that helped sway [TS]

01:00:07   their decision into taking a much bigger [TS]

01:00:10   risk with this product than they should [TS]

01:00:11   have I think apple and maybe this has [TS]

01:00:14   changed now I'm not sure it has Apple [TS]

01:00:17   needs to be confident enough in itself [TS]

01:00:19   to release boring products sometimes [TS]

01:00:22   when that's actually what certain types [TS]

01:00:24   of customers need and the Mac Pro is the [TS]

01:00:27   biggest example of that like they can [TS]

01:00:29   totally do not only can they they should [TS]

01:00:31   probably do a relatively boring line of [TS]

01:00:35   mac pros because that's like what comes [TS]

01:00:38   along with boringness is what pros need [TS]

01:00:42   yeah I I'm struggling because I it's so [TS]

01:00:47   clear to me how right you are in [TS]

01:00:49   retrospect but if your Apple and you're [TS]

01:00:52   looking at what's coming in 2013 which [TS]

01:00:55   here again I 2013 feels like forever ago [TS]

01:00:58   and that's when this thing was that was [TS]

01:00:59   released oh my god this is so bad but [TS]

01:01:01   anyway when you're looking at the future [TS]

01:01:03   in 2013 and you're looking at like [TS]

01:01:05   opencl and all these different options [TS]

01:01:07   it makes sense to me to bet that maybe [TS]

01:01:11   not at the house that's probably a [TS]

01:01:12   little aggressive but bet big on opencl [TS]

01:01:16   in and say you know what this is [TS]

01:01:17   probably the future and we're going to [TS]

01:01:20   give you the best possible machine that [TS]

01:01:22   will be as fast as it possibly can for [TS]

01:01:25   that future that is so obviously coming [TS]

01:01:27   unfortunately the future never came but [TS]

01:01:30   city is sitting where Apple presumably [TS]

01:01:33   was sitting in 2013 I I think it does [TS]

01:01:37   make sense to do what they did but [TS]

01:01:40   unequivocally looking at it in hindsight [TS]

01:01:42   you are absolutely correct that the [TS]

01:01:44   boring machine was the writer machine [TS]

01:01:46   and maybe the cleverness is what John [TS]

01:01:48   was talking about and having a [TS]

01:01:49   motherboard on the door or whatever or [TS]

01:01:51   what have you are making it easily [TS]

01:01:52   upgradable or whatever the case may be [TS]

01:01:55   but I don't think we could necessarily [TS]

01:01:57   fault Apple for the way they were [TS]

01:01:59   thinking in 2013 given the facts they [TS]

01:02:01   had in front of them well I think you [TS]

01:02:04   can fault them the saying like if they [TS]

01:02:05   thought if they thought opencl was the [TS]

01:02:07   future wouldn't they have to release a [TS]

01:02:09   machine that the next year they could [TS]

01:02:11   make it run opencl faster and the year [TS]

01:02:13   can make it run opencl faster even if [TS]

01:02:16   they had kind of an idea of what the GPU [TS]

01:02:19   compute future was going to be like they [TS]

01:02:20   didn't have doesn't seem like they had a [TS]

01:02:21   roadmap of like it when this future [TS]

01:02:24   arrives we should be poised to make the [TS]

01:02:27   the fastest thing that you can run [TS]

01:02:29   opencl on year after year they weren't [TS]

01:02:30   even poised to do that even if it hadn t [TS]

01:02:32   realized they were not like his the bent [TS]

01:02:34   like by the time this machine step like [TS]

01:02:36   I said you can get a single GPU pc that [TS]

01:02:39   did beat it right in the things that [TS]

01:02:41   people cared about right and people [TS]

01:02:43   didn't have to rewrite their [TS]

01:02:44   applications and they seemed to have no [TS]

01:02:46   plan I mean it's a surprise to me [TS]

01:02:47   because this type of chimney design [TS]

01:02:49   where you pull in cool air from the [TS]

01:02:50   bottom and exhaust the hot air at the [TS]

01:02:51   top with it with a really big fan that [TS]

01:02:53   goes slowly I would think that would [TS]

01:02:56   have more capacity than it apparently [TS]

01:02:58   has so we're taking what they send a [TS]

01:02:59   face value that like bad that you know [TS]

01:03:02   thermal problems with it and they [TS]

01:03:03   couldn't get new stuff in it that's [TS]

01:03:04   that's pretty darn bad and I have a hard [TS]

01:03:07   time envisioning any good plan for the [TS]

01:03:10   Mac Pro that does not include the [TS]

01:03:12   ability to make it faster next year and [TS]

01:03:13   faster the year after that and fast of [TS]

01:03:15   the year after that in that in an [TS]

01:03:16   incremental way because again the whole [TS]

01:03:17   point of this product is to be the [TS]

01:03:19   fastest thing out there and I know what [TS]

01:03:21   Mark was saying with the boring updates [TS]

01:03:23   I wouldn't use that word to characterize [TS]

01:03:24   it because as far as I'm concerned [TS]

01:03:25   having the best performance in the [TS]

01:03:28   product line is not boring even if it's [TS]

01:03:30   not in a in a spiral-shaped underwater [TS]

01:03:33   case right you know or whatever you want [TS]

01:03:35   to say is like oh we can put it in a [TS]

01:03:37   sphere and it rolls around your desk [TS]

01:03:38   like whatever if every year it gets [TS]

01:03:41   faster and faster speed is not boring [TS]

01:03:43   capability is not boring like you know [TS]

01:03:46   my renders are compiled sucks X amount [TS]

01:03:48   of time if i buy a new one in a year or [TS]

01:03:50   two years they should take x divided by [TS]

01:03:53   some number amount of time it's [TS]

01:03:55   something or greater than one all right [TS]

01:03:57   i want i want to see things happen [TS]

01:03:59   faster and that's not boring i think [TS]

01:04:01   what you gettin of the boring is like be [TS]

01:04:03   innovative but don't don't try to change [TS]

01:04:07   things for the sake of changing them and [TS]

01:04:08   i think what they tried to do is kind of [TS]

01:04:10   what they try to do with a Final Cut Pro [TS]

01:04:11   10 which is let's not be constrained by [TS]

01:04:14   what defines pro computers today it [TS]

01:04:18   could be that we are holding onto [TS]

01:04:19   baggage that is not actually necessary [TS]

01:04:20   anymore if we start basically from a [TS]

01:04:23   clean slate and say what do our Pro [TS]

01:04:26   users really need what can we [TS]

01:04:27   eliminate what is just there because [TS]

01:04:29   like Oh everyone expects to have floppy [TS]

01:04:31   drives and parallel ports and whatever [TS]

01:04:33   like what could if we drop things and [TS]

01:04:35   just leave the essence can we get it a [TS]

01:04:38   simplification and they dropped too many [TS]

01:04:41   things on the wrong things right if they [TS]

01:04:45   had found the correct essence and drop [TS]

01:04:48   some things but left others like you [TS]

01:04:50   know that they could have come up with a [TS]

01:04:51   better balance and it still could have [TS]

01:04:53   been a cylinder case for all we know and [TS]

01:04:54   it still could have had no internal [TS]

01:04:56   store like some of the bets i think [TS]

01:04:57   we're reasonable like no 3.5 inch [TS]

01:04:59   internal bays no optical drive obviously [TS]

01:05:02   like all those thing all those things [TS]

01:05:03   that they removed from the mac pro as [TS]

01:05:05   compared to the cheese grater those were [TS]

01:05:07   correct things to drought it's like you [TS]

01:05:09   don't have to keep having three and a [TS]

01:05:11   quarter inch drive bays you don't have [TS]

01:05:12   to have any kind of drive bays you can [TS]

01:05:13   you know we see the future as being PCI [TS]

01:05:15   Express SSDs or you know obtain whatever [TS]

01:05:18   things from Intel that is an example of [TS]

01:05:22   a simplification that is it possible if [TS]

01:05:24   you say super boring which is basically [TS]

01:05:26   like well Pro computers got to have a [TS]

01:05:27   bunch of PCI slots and a bunch of 3.5 [TS]

01:05:29   inch bays and a bunch of five and a [TS]

01:05:30   quarter you'll never you'll never make [TS]

01:05:32   anything interesting there it's just [TS]

01:05:33   that they dropped other things as well [TS]

01:05:35   and it didn't work out and I think to to [TS]

01:05:39   try to make different trade-offs we can [TS]

01:05:41   start talking about what we think a new [TS]

01:05:44   mac pro as vaguely sketched by apple's [TS]

01:05:48   words in this meeting would look like [TS]

01:05:50   your sponsor this week by indochino go [TS]

01:05:55   to indochino calm and use promo code ATP [TS]

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01:07:06   this is for a made-to-measure premium [TS]

01:07:09   suit it's a cook a custom suit made just [TS]

01:07:11   for you at that price I don't think you [TS]

01:07:13   can find anywhere else and shipping is [TS]

01:07:15   free once again it's indochino calm and [TS]

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01:07:21   anoche no for just 389 by using code ATP [TS]

01:07:25   at checkout that's an incredible deal [TS]

01:07:27   for a suit that will fit you better than [TS]

01:07:28   anything off the rack ever could once [TS]

01:07:31   again indochino calm thank you very much [TS]

01:07:33   to indochino for sponsoring our show I [TS]

01:07:35   wanted to talk a little bit about the [TS]

01:07:40   imac because they had some interesting [TS]

01:07:42   things to say about that too you know to [TS]

01:07:44   me what's what was probably one of the [TS]

01:07:48   most interesting parts of this briefing [TS]

01:07:50   is that it sounds like they're not [TS]

01:07:52   working on one Mac Pro that they're [TS]

01:07:55   working on two different pro desktops [TS]

01:07:57   one of them is new like higher-end [TS]

01:08:01   configurations of the iMac which is [TS]

01:08:03   probably why they seem to have [TS]

01:08:05   apparently cancelled the imac revision [TS]

01:08:08   that's been like mostly done and you [TS]

01:08:10   know like the USBC kb leg revision it [TS]

01:08:12   seems like they're now just going to [TS]

01:08:13   hold that maybe until the fall whenever [TS]

01:08:16   because what they said was that they're [TS]

01:08:17   going to be new like more pro [TS]

01:08:20   configurations of the imac this year so [TS]

01:08:23   i'm guessing like that maybe gets [TS]

01:08:25   announced emergency but probably the [TS]

01:08:27   fall and that probably you know that [TS]

01:08:29   whatever I max we're going to come out [TS]

01:08:30   this this past you know winter or spring [TS]

01:08:33   have probably been delayed to just make [TS]

01:08:36   one big update then which I'm not sure [TS]

01:08:38   that's necessarily the right move but I [TS]

01:08:39   see you know that is typical of Apple so [TS]

01:08:40   that's possible right but anyway I [TS]

01:08:42   wanted to kind of get an idea of if [TS]

01:08:46   they're going to do like a pro pro [TS]

01:08:48   configurations of the imac and also do a [TS]

01:08:51   modular Mac Pro and we'll talk [TS]

01:08:54   what that might mean also what would the [TS]

01:08:57   imac configurations actually be like so [TS]

01:09:00   I was thinking like you know they could [TS]

01:09:01   put Zeon's in there for to get higher [TS]

01:09:03   core counts and more pci lanes and [TS]

01:09:06   everything but i figured that might [TS]

01:09:07   become like a Mac Pro only thing so [TS]

01:09:10   maybe the Intel Extreme series like we'd [TS]

01:09:11   like we kept we keep it and told about [TS]

01:09:13   like the x99 boards and the extreme [TS]

01:09:16   edition processors that have like 6 to [TS]

01:09:17   10 cores they're basically Zeon's but [TS]

01:09:21   you know not in not an official name and [TS]

01:09:23   so they don't have ECC ram support they [TS]

01:09:26   don't have quite as high of course as [TS]

01:09:28   Zeon's do and they don't usually max how [TS]

01:09:30   to quite as high o clock speeds but that [TS]

01:09:33   would be one way like if they want to [TS]

01:09:35   keep these two different things this you [TS]

01:09:38   know they have the regular iMac which [TS]

01:09:39   the regular imac already has usually the [TS]

01:09:42   fastest like typical desktop processors [TS]

01:09:45   that Intel sells GPUs they have more [TS]

01:09:48   headroom GPUs they usually use like a [TS]

01:09:50   like a low-power desktop GPU because the [TS]

01:09:53   big honkin like you know if the 1080 [TS]

01:09:55   kind of equivalents like the big like [TS]

01:09:57   things with like the big green plastic [TS]

01:09:59   fans from the overclockers like those [TS]

01:10:02   GPUs don't fit in the imac enclosure [TS]

01:10:04   like space or heat wise so if they make [TS]

01:10:07   the enclosure you know thicker and have [TS]

01:10:10   bigger heat capacity maybe you know [TS]

01:10:13   larger slow our fans with massive heat [TS]

01:10:16   sinks somehow if they do that kind of [TS]

01:10:18   thing then they could increase the [TS]

01:10:21   capacity enough to maybe have at least [TS]

01:10:24   mid-range desktop-class GPUs and that [TS]

01:10:27   could also add more but again like how [TS]

01:10:30   high would that actually be able to go [TS]

01:10:32   before it questions the need for the Mac [TS]

01:10:35   Pro tower right so I'm guessing you know [TS]

01:10:37   it would probably be obviously limited [TS]

01:10:39   to just one GPU but maybe it maybe again [TS]

01:10:42   like limited to like like the PC mid [TS]

01:10:44   rings at the kind of pc GPUs you can [TS]

01:10:45   usually get for like 200 bucks like that [TS]

01:10:47   kind of class you know and so and maybe [TS]

01:10:50   it might have a higher ram ceiling you [TS]

01:10:53   know cuz right now the imac is 32 maybe [TS]

01:10:56   the imac pro in finger quotes goes to 64 [TS]

01:10:59   and the macro goes to 128 you know stuff [TS]

01:11:01   stuff like that the imac pro probably [TS]

01:11:04   wouldn't have all of the Thunderbolt [TS]

01:11:06   bandwidth and [TS]

01:11:07   like you know the Mac Pro has like three [TS]

01:11:09   Thunderbolt buses you know you know the [TS]

01:11:12   new one probably have a different [TS]

01:11:13   arrangement but suffice to say that they [TS]

01:11:15   would max out however many pci express [TS]

01:11:17   lanes and Thunderbolt however much [TS]

01:11:19   Thunderbolt BAM what they could get the [TS]

01:11:21   mac pro would have the most and the imac [TS]

01:11:23   pro would probably have closer to a [TS]

01:11:24   consumer level of them and you know [TS]

01:11:27   maybe and maybe die mac pro would retain [TS]

01:11:30   older ports for longer maybe like if [TS]

01:11:32   they drop ethernet say or the SD card or [TS]

01:11:35   whatever i think he turns a better [TS]

01:11:37   example if they drop ethernet off the [TS]

01:11:38   imac in the consumer line maybe they [TS]

01:11:41   keep it in the imac proline or if they [TS]

01:11:43   drop upgradable ram out of the consumer [TS]

01:11:45   line maybe that gets kept in the [TS]

01:11:46   purloined so like I think there are ways [TS]

01:11:48   they can do the imac pro that doesn't [TS]

01:11:51   interfere with the mac pro but not only [TS]

01:11:55   am I very surprised that they're doing [TS]

01:11:58   to but I'm very excited to see what the [TS]

01:12:00   imac pro is because that might end up [TS]

01:12:02   being the computer threat for me because [TS]

01:12:04   i actually don't need a lot of what the [TS]

01:12:05   Mac Pro offers I just I really just need [TS]

01:12:07   the massive CPU power nap being said as [TS]

01:12:10   I stare at my 5k imac with the horrible [TS]

01:12:13   image retention but i i'm starting to [TS]

01:12:15   wonder maybe maybe i would still go that [TS]

01:12:17   way anyway the big question with the [TS]

01:12:20   imac pro for me is was this product plan [TS]

01:12:24   before or after they decided they're [TS]

01:12:26   doing the new mac pro because that [TS]

01:12:28   really dictates the design because if i [TS]

01:12:29   think about it in this in the new world [TS]

01:12:31   where they're saying hey we're going to [TS]

01:12:32   have a new modular mac pro i think oh [TS]

01:12:34   well then this imac with stuff for pro [TS]

01:12:37   people just going to be like a little [TS]

01:12:40   bit faster internal SSD you know [TS]

01:12:43   Thunderbolt 3 a little bit faster GPU a [TS]

01:12:47   little bit faster cpu all the same [TS]

01:12:49   classes just like better components all [TS]

01:12:51   around a new high-end what we used to [TS]

01:12:53   call a plain old speed bump right but if [TS]

01:12:57   this new imac was planned and you know [TS]

01:13:00   it because this new i like is coming [TS]

01:13:02   this year right so this is not like a [TS]

01:13:03   distant thing it's coming this year if [TS]

01:13:05   this new imac had been planned at a time [TS]

01:13:07   when apple's like we're not doing the [TS]

01:13:09   mac pro anymore and this was going to be [TS]

01:13:12   their replacement to satisfy everybody [TS]

01:13:13   then i start saying well maybe they [TS]

01:13:16   could put izzy on it you know maybe they [TS]

01:13:18   could put a slightly higher end [TS]

01:13:21   all the things that you said like my [TS]

01:13:22   news x99 series and use a desktop class [TS]

01:13:25   GP like that's the only reason I think [TS]

01:13:28   we would get that and that machine I [TS]

01:13:29   think makes less sense for Apple to [TS]

01:13:31   invest in in in in a situation where [TS]

01:13:34   they really are making new Mac Pro [TS]

01:13:35   because who in the world would buy that [TS]

01:13:37   when they have the option to buy a new [TS]

01:13:39   modular Mac Pro like if you need that [TS]

01:13:41   stuff if you feel like you need tons of [TS]

01:13:42   cores and you need a faster GPU and [TS]

01:13:45   stuff like why wouldn't you go with the [TS]

01:13:46   modular one it's it's so much better you [TS]

01:13:48   know because then if your monitor does [TS]

01:13:49   have image retention you can just you [TS]

01:13:50   know ship the monitor back or get a [TS]

01:13:51   different monitors that have chuck in [TS]

01:13:53   the whole machine like all in one is not [TS]

01:13:55   pro friendly in terms of how to [TS]

01:13:57   configure a system to your specific [TS]

01:13:59   needs right so really this machine [TS]

01:14:03   depending on when it was when it was [TS]

01:14:07   created and what Apple's planned for it [TS]

01:14:09   was it could've not being this weird [TS]

01:14:11   one-off where somehow by some miracle we [TS]

01:14:14   get an imac with a Z on in but then that [TS]

01:14:16   goes away as soon as the new Mac Pro [TS]

01:14:17   comes because like what the hell's the [TS]

01:14:18   point of an imac with Izzy on it when [TS]

01:14:20   you've got the mac pro but for the most [TS]

01:14:22   part I'm thinking that this new imac [TS]

01:14:25   will basically be like the current [TS]

01:14:27   top-of-the-line 5k imac but every [TS]

01:14:29   component of it just be a little bit [TS]

01:14:30   better and also a thunderbolt 3 and I [TS]

01:14:32   think they they could sell that is [TS]

01:14:34   saying this is this is a mat imac that [TS]

01:14:36   has more appeal to Pro users than the [TS]

01:14:38   previous one but to me it would just be [TS]

01:14:41   a speed bump in the old style where we [TS]

01:14:44   just took it for granted that every year [TS]

01:14:45   the computers the Apple sells at the [TS]

01:14:48   very least would have all their [TS]

01:14:49   components upgraded to be Sully better [TS]

01:14:51   and every couple of years they would get [TS]

01:14:52   a new generation kind of my car so [TS]

01:14:54   though they don't tend to get horsepower [TS]

01:14:56   bumps but you know there's a generation [TS]

01:14:57   of car and they improve a year after [TS]

01:14:59   year after year and there's a new [TS]

01:15:00   generation they used to happen with max [TS]

01:15:02   to every year they would get a little [TS]

01:15:04   bit faster we used to be disappointed in [TS]

01:15:06   speed mouse remember that it was like oh [TS]

01:15:07   they just did a speed bump word now we [TS]

01:15:09   would kill for speed bumps please just [TS]

01:15:10   make everything fine make every [TS]

01:15:12   component a little bit faster make you [TS]

01:15:14   know the just just make everything a [TS]

01:15:16   little bit better and that will hold us [TS]

01:15:18   over until next year and so they just [TS]

01:15:19   don't update stuff at all anymore so [TS]

01:15:22   yeah my for the imac I'm interested in [TS]

01:15:25   what it will be as well but the promise [TS]

01:15:28   of a real new Mac Pro is probably going [TS]

01:15:31   to keep me away from [TS]

01:15:33   no matter what a new real new Mac Pro [TS]

01:15:35   with an apple monitor the only way i'll [TS]

01:15:37   end up with that imac is if my computer [TS]

01:15:39   dies i will get it i will get an imac [TS]

01:15:40   and then i will get the new mac pro [TS]

01:15:42   after that but if my little 2008 Mac Pro [TS]

01:15:45   can hold out as I've said a joke about [TS]

01:15:47   in many past shows if we can go for the [TS]

01:15:48   full decade two thousand eight to twenty [TS]

01:15:51   eighteen 10-year the service life of the [TS]

01:15:53   computer if I can make it I will and if [TS]

01:15:57   not I'll get an imac yeah I think I [TS]

01:16:00   think you guys are right that and I'm an [TS]

01:16:02   imac pro would just be more of whatever [TS]

01:16:05   the top of the line a 5k imac is it [TS]

01:16:08   would potentially have more ports I [TS]

01:16:10   think Marco your example of ethernet is [TS]

01:16:12   a phenomenal one because i think apple's [TS]

01:16:14   itching to get rid of that for the most [TS]

01:16:16   part but what Pro users the kind of [TS]

01:16:18   person that would want to move humongous [TS]

01:16:20   bits of data around then they already [TS]

01:16:22   get rid of it I don't think my 5km I [TS]

01:16:23   know all the imax still have it yeah the [TS]

01:16:26   imax i think the mini still does too but [TS]

01:16:28   who's who cares what the me I gotta go [TS]

01:16:30   look I don't think one does continue [TS]

01:16:32   talking I'll be back in a second John I [TS]

01:16:34   of the most modern 5k imac I believe and [TS]

01:16:36   it absolutely has anything it definitely [TS]

01:16:39   still has if you want to check yeah I [TS]

01:16:41   think would have more ports like Marco [TS]

01:16:43   said potentially more ram the other [TS]

01:16:45   thing I wanted to bring up though is and [TS]

01:16:48   I don't know anything about this so [TS]

01:16:50   maybe this is completely bananas but [TS]

01:16:52   what about like VR so I know the VR is [TS]

01:16:55   super intensive and in it requires just [TS]

01:16:58   tremendous GPU power but is it feasible [TS]

01:17:01   to have a 5k I Mac Pro that maybe does [TS]

01:17:05   VR because vr is kind of that in between [TS]

01:17:07   right where you need tremendous hardware [TS]

01:17:10   but you don't necessarily need to go all [TS]

01:17:13   the way to a mac pro for that sort of [TS]

01:17:15   thing do you so maybe like maybe that's [TS]

01:17:17   the target is you could use an oculus [TS]

01:17:20   with an imac 5k or something i [TS]

01:17:22   understand that at last i heard our key [TS]

01:17:23   lock euless isn't supporting mac OS but [TS]

01:17:25   just for the sake last example doesn't [TS]

01:17:27   make any harbor this fast enough and [TS]

01:17:28   right exactly I don't think you can fit [TS]

01:17:30   a VR capable with current to be our [TS]

01:17:33   standards we are capable GPU inside the [TS]

01:17:36   imac right unless again unless unless [TS]

01:17:38   this is the imac we're talking about was [TS]

01:17:41   the one that was designed and planned [TS]

01:17:43   and executed for an age without the mac [TS]

01:17:46   pro because there's plenty of room back [TS]

01:17:47   they're to add stuff to the back of that [TS]

01:17:48   monitor they could put much more capable [TS]

01:17:50   cooling like they have a lot of area [TS]

01:17:52   especially between the 5k one there's a [TS]

01:17:54   lot of area behind that monitor to put [TS]

01:17:55   stuff you can spread it out far away [TS]

01:17:56   from each other you can get lots of air [TS]

01:17:58   flowing over things and you have tons of [TS]

01:18:00   options but the only way such a thing [TS]

01:18:03   would exist as if it was if it was [TS]

01:18:04   something that was supposed to be in a [TS]

01:18:07   lineup that doesn't include the mac pro [TS]

01:18:09   and in which case I think it would be a [TS]

01:18:10   one-off so you think you think apple's [TS]

01:18:13   official message is if you ever wanted [TS]

01:18:15   to do vr we have an answer for you and [TS]

01:18:17   it's a five-thousand-dollar Mac Pro [TS]

01:18:19   maybe I mean it depends like I think VR [TS]

01:18:21   is you know right now in even in the pc [TS]

01:18:25   world vr requires like the highest and [TS]

01:18:27   hardware because it's really new and [TS]

01:18:29   it's incredibly taxing on GPUs but you [TS]

01:18:33   know everything that comes out that's [TS]

01:18:36   like a new type of thing you can do with [TS]

01:18:39   GPUs requires the best GPUs and if you [TS]

01:18:41   look at like you know gaming and you [TS]

01:18:43   know which is what VR is obviously [TS]

01:18:45   involved with typically what happens is [TS]

01:18:48   you know in a few years more pedestrian [TS]

01:18:51   GPUs will be able to handle VR in the [TS]

01:18:54   same way that today you can run a 3d [TS]

01:18:56   game on a macbook pro but you may be [TS]

01:18:58   just can't turn all the settings up so [TS]

01:19:00   you can't have like all the super [TS]

01:19:01   high-resolution super-high detail levels [TS]

01:19:03   things like that so VR is going to be [TS]

01:19:05   the same way like right now it requires [TS]

01:19:08   these massive things but you know in two [TS]

01:19:11   years you know because you know an [TS]

01:19:12   apples patient you know it's like [TS]

01:19:13   they're not going to design a whole new [TS]

01:19:15   product line with this i Mac Pro that [TS]

01:19:17   would be only be able to do VR with this [TS]

01:19:20   massive thing on the back of it but then [TS]

01:19:22   in two years that wouldn't be necessary [TS]

01:19:23   anymore like so I don't basically I [TS]

01:19:26   think that by the time the new Mac Pro [TS]

01:19:29   comes out and we see you know the kind [TS]

01:19:32   of stuff that you know what whatever the [TS]

01:19:34   new Mac Pro balance with the pro iMac [TS]

01:19:36   and the regular imac is I think by the [TS]

01:19:38   time I'll get settled settled out vr [TS]

01:19:40   will run fine on mid-range hardware and [TS]

01:19:43   so this that question will be kind of [TS]

01:19:45   moot now if you want like a really good [TS]

01:19:47   VR set up you're probably going to want [TS]

01:19:49   you know a high end gaming PC or the [TS]

01:19:52   equivalent hardware in a mac pro but [TS]

01:19:54   that's a different story we're still [TS]

01:19:55   early in VR because there is so much [TS]

01:19:58   Headroom Justin resolution like it's so [TS]

01:20:00   grainy it's like [TS]

01:20:01   not going back to doom where the pixels [TS]

01:20:02   are the size of boulders but like you [TS]

01:20:05   need a high-end rig just to get the [TS]

01:20:08   current best VR you know goggle setups [TS]

01:20:11   to show you something that looks [TS]

01:20:13   incredibly grainy from the perspective [TS]

01:20:15   of what you would expect from like a [TS]

01:20:17   modern 2d regular PC game so there is a [TS]

01:20:21   huge amount of capacity for new GPU [TS]

01:20:23   power that will purely be absorbed by [TS]

01:20:25   making things less ridiculously dotty [TS]

01:20:28   and it doesn't mean like you can be able [TS]

01:20:30   to do VR as it exists today on a [TS]

01:20:31   mid-range system so at least it will be [TS]

01:20:33   possible right so you're right about [TS]

01:20:34   that like suddenly it's possible on a [TS]

01:20:36   mid-range systems but the appetite for [TS]

01:20:38   high-end bull will not go away for a [TS]

01:20:40   long time just because you know at the [TS]

01:20:42   very least you're doing twice the work [TS]

01:20:44   for VR because you have two different [TS]

01:20:45   images are two different eyes and it [TS]

01:20:46   just goes up from there in terms of [TS]

01:20:48   sensor fusion and response times for [TS]

01:20:50   getting things to your eyeballs as fast [TS]

01:20:52   as possible in a very very demanding [TS]

01:20:55   environment where every millisecond [TS]

01:20:57   counts so that's why I feel like you [TS]

01:20:58   always need a high-end rig to rig to [TS]

01:21:00   ring the best attitude see their [TS]

01:21:02   high-end rig or something like PS we are [TS]

01:21:03   where it is a purpose-built system that [TS]

01:21:05   is not a general-purpose computer but [TS]

01:21:07   that is designed specifically do VR and [TS]

01:21:09   it has strict constraints on latency and [TS]

01:21:11   frame rates and all that stuff we [TS]

01:21:14   respond to this week by betterment [TS]

01:21:16   investing made better go to better [TS]

01:21:18   mint.com / ATP to learn more betterment [TS]

01:21:22   is a smarter way to invest your money [TS]

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01:21:32   advisors use with clients who have [TS]

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01:21:50   you lose less your money along the way [TS]

01:21:51   if you do the math typical investment [TS]

01:21:53   fees and costs really add up over time [TS]

01:21:56   and veterans fees are a fraction of the [TS]

01:21:58   cost of other financial services and [TS]

01:22:00   betterment is so easy to use and [TS]

01:22:02   pleasant they've won awards for their [TS]

01:22:04   customer experience you can log into a [TS]

01:22:06   demo account right on their site if [TS]

01:22:07   you're curious to see it investing [TS]

01:22:09   involves risk for a limited time so I'm [TS]

01:22:11   to betterment and you may qualify for a [TS]

01:22:13   free Canary home security system to help [TS]

01:22:15   cure your home terms and conditions do [TS]

01:22:17   apply learn more visit betterment calm / [TS]

01:22:20   ATP that's betterment calm / ATP [TS]

01:22:23   betterment investing made better so [TS]

01:22:29   let's talk about the whole idea of what [TS]

01:22:32   what is this modular design that they [TS]

01:22:35   say they mentioned you know they were [TS]

01:22:37   very clear on a number of number of [TS]

01:22:39   times during this briefing that the new [TS]

01:22:41   Mac Pro is coming out sometime after [TS]

01:22:44   this year is going to have a quote [TS]

01:22:47   modular design what does that mean one [TS]

01:22:51   of the things that that people online [TS]

01:22:53   have been thinking about and asking [TS]

01:22:56   about and suggesting and even predicting [TS]

01:22:57   for the future for years now is a kind [TS]

01:23:01   of set of stacked components that would [TS]

01:23:03   look kind of like Mac minis that you'd [TS]

01:23:05   like stack up and like one would be your [TS]

01:23:07   CPU module and one would be your GPU [TS]

01:23:09   module and stuff like that right here's [TS]

01:23:11   a storage one you kind of like build [TS]

01:23:13   your own like assembled stack of parts [TS]

01:23:16   each one of which is its own independent [TS]

01:23:18   box that you could buy an upgrade and [TS]

01:23:20   customize as needed the more I thought [TS]

01:23:22   about this kind of thing the more I [TS]

01:23:24   think that this is not only not what [TS]

01:23:27   Apple probably has in mind but that it [TS]

01:23:29   actually might be terrible and [TS]

01:23:31   impractical in reality I can't believe [TS]

01:23:34   you a ver entertaining it enough to [TS]

01:23:35   discuss it at the show topic because all [TS]

01:23:37   right people have been talking about [TS]

01:23:39   this for year because it sounds like a [TS]

01:23:40   cool sci-fi thing kind of in this is the [TS]

01:23:42   modern incarnation of this the people [TS]

01:23:44   may be more familiar with is like the [TS]

01:23:46   project era whatever was those phones [TS]

01:23:48   like we're going to make a cell phone [TS]

01:23:49   rather having a bunch of modules that we [TS]

01:23:51   snapped together and you can pick your [TS]

01:23:52   camera you pick your CPU and your GPU [TS]

01:23:54   and how much storage at how much battery [TS]

01:23:56   and you'll just be able to build your [TS]

01:23:58   phone from a bunch of these little [TS]

01:23:59   modular capsules that snap together to [TS]

01:24:01   build a phone it's like know that it's [TS]

01:24:05   an interesting idea but the tech for [TS]

01:24:07   that simply does not exist and so with [TS]

01:24:09   the advent of number ball 3 everyone [TS]

01:24:11   says what boy for the tech for that does [TS]

01:24:12   exist everything you just described I [TS]

01:24:14   can get a bunch of Mac many type things [TS]

01:24:15   and they snap together with the cool [TS]

01:24:17   Thunderball 3 thing and I have my GPU [TS]

01:24:18   and my cpu my storage and it just snaps [TS]

01:24:20   together but it's like what is that [TS]

01:24:23   buying you versus just having a regular [TS]

01:24:26   computer that you can pull things in [TS]

01:24:28   out of like what what do you get by [TS]

01:24:30   putting them in separate little nodules [TS]

01:24:32   what does Apple get what do you get that [TS]

01:24:34   like its it has always been a pipe dream [TS]

01:24:36   and as the technology comes closer and [TS]

01:24:38   it goes from pipe dream to potential [TS]

01:24:40   reality then you have to say if we could [TS]

01:24:42   feasibly do it what is that what do I [TS]

01:24:44   get out of it and other than it being [TS]

01:24:46   really cool and Future II i think we [TS]

01:24:49   don't get enough out of it with today's [TS]

01:24:51   technology for it to be worthwhile for [TS]

01:24:52   able to even consider this approach well [TS]

01:24:55   and even if you even think about like [TS]

01:24:56   what it would actually be like if you [TS]

01:24:59   think through like okay what would these [TS]

01:25:00   things actually require how would this [TS]

01:25:03   be sold how would it be supported so one [TS]

01:25:06   of the number you know number one [TS]

01:25:07   obviously is like how do they connect to [TS]

01:25:10   each other like over what kind of [TS]

01:25:11   interface do they talk to each other [TS]

01:25:13   that is actually fast enough to do this [TS]

01:25:15   stuff and if you're talking if you're [TS]

01:25:16   putting like you know a disk on there [TS]

01:25:18   thunderbolts fast enough but if you're [TS]

01:25:20   putting a GPU or a cpu or sora you know [TS]

01:25:23   things that really need lots and lots of [TS]

01:25:25   bandwidth then you're gonna need you [TS]

01:25:28   know either you're going to have to deal [TS]

01:25:29   with the the limitations of Thunderbolt [TS]

01:25:31   because Thunderbolt is PCI Express over [TS]

01:25:35   a cable but it is not nearly as much [TS]

01:25:38   bandwidth as the as the internal slots [TS]

01:25:41   for like a GPU and desktop have and [TS]

01:25:44   furthermore the standards for you know [TS]

01:25:48   pci express itself and the Thunderbolt [TS]

01:25:50   standards those change every few years [TS]

01:25:52   so you'd have like the set of like pods [TS]

01:25:55   I guess that's the word i'll use you'll [TS]

01:25:58   have like the set of like component pods [TS]

01:25:59   we're like they're all be different [TS]

01:26:01   speeds if you mix and match over the [TS]

01:26:03   years and if you're not going to mix [TS]

01:26:04   match over the years there's no point in [TS]

01:26:05   doing this not to mention like every one [TS]

01:26:08   of those pods would need its own power [TS]

01:26:10   and cooling it's silly maybe you could [TS]

01:26:14   have some interface where the big honkin [TS]

01:26:17   one on the bottom has a giant power [TS]

01:26:19   supply and powers all the other ones you [TS]

01:26:22   still need to put fans in all of them so [TS]

01:26:24   that's going to be more noise more size [TS]

01:26:26   they're all going to have their own [TS]

01:26:28   metal casing and whatever hardware isn't [TS]

01:26:30   involved with the inter connection [TS]

01:26:31   between them and keeping them securely [TS]

01:26:34   mounted so your GPU doesn't pop out of [TS]

01:26:35   the socket the middle of using it if [TS]

01:26:37   you'd nudge the desk or your cat walks [TS]

01:26:38   over whatever like it is so challenging [TS]

01:26:41   to bill [TS]

01:26:42   system like that that works at all and [TS]

01:26:45   it would end up these these pod things [TS]

01:26:47   would end up being so cumbersome and [TS]

01:26:51   expensive and loud and it would and then [TS]

01:26:55   not to mention like imagine the support [TS]

01:26:57   nightmare of like you know you think [TS]

01:27:00   it's bad now when we have to know like [TS]

01:27:02   well if you have a 13-inch MacBook Pro [TS]

01:27:05   the two Thunderbolt ports on the right [TS]

01:27:06   side are a little bit less bandwidth and [TS]

01:27:08   those two Thunderbolt ports on the left [TS]

01:27:09   side you think that's bad imagine a [TS]

01:27:13   system where like well you can you can [TS]

01:27:15   stack like three GPU module that only if [TS]

01:27:18   you have this one high powered CPU [TS]

01:27:20   module only from this year forward and [TS]

01:27:22   not if you have a disk module between [TS]

01:27:23   any of the two GPU modules like it would [TS]

01:27:25   be crazy to support and it would be [TS]

01:27:27   crazy as a user to figure out what would [TS]

01:27:29   work with what else and whether you [TS]

01:27:31   could do things and it would just be a [TS]

01:27:32   nightmare and if there were be weird [TS]

01:27:34   limits of like how many is something you [TS]

01:27:36   could have what order they'd have to be [TS]

01:27:38   stacked in what what the certain like [TS]

01:27:41   main module would have to be the support [TS]

01:27:43   that one's its it would be a mess so [TS]

01:27:45   that entire idea of stacking these these [TS]

01:27:49   external boxes that you could just [TS]

01:27:51   combine into whatever you want I don't [TS]

01:27:53   think that's ever going to happen it [TS]

01:27:54   just in practice it just doesn't work I [TS]

01:27:57   completely agree with you and I think [TS]

01:27:59   that that that reading of modular is [TS]

01:28:02   grossly over complicating what Apple's [TS]

01:28:06   probably talking about yeah they're just [TS]

01:28:08   going to sever monitor that's all I mean [TS]

01:28:09   yeah that's it just separate monitor [TS]

01:28:11   well and I think what they mean you know [TS]

01:28:14   it turns out if you if you can describe [TS]

01:28:16   the configurability of a pc tower that [TS]

01:28:19   we've had for decades like that is [TS]

01:28:22   modular like well I think what they mean [TS]

01:28:24   exactly what I was gonna say yeah I [TS]

01:28:26   think it just means like [TS]

01:28:26   user-replaceable ram you maybe use a [TS]

01:28:28   replaceable CPU maybe user replaceable [TS]

01:28:31   graphics card it's basically a cheese [TS]

01:28:33   grater mac pro but presumably done in a [TS]

01:28:36   much more modern fashion but with the [TS]

01:28:38   same amount of upgradeability and i [TS]

01:28:40   would say it doesn't even necessarily [TS]

01:28:41   need to be user replaceable on these [TS]

01:28:43   parts I think what Apple means by [TS]

01:28:45   modular is they can configure the same [TS]

01:28:49   general case in different ways to suit [TS]

01:28:53   different types of needs at purchase so [TS]

01:28:55   the old [TS]

01:28:56   macpro tower could be configured with [TS]

01:28:58   the one or two CPUs you know three or [TS]

01:29:00   six ram slots any number up to five I [TS]

01:29:04   think of PCI Express cards two books [TS]

01:29:06   have GPU or three of which could have [TS]

01:29:07   GPU bandwidth I think four discs to [TS]

01:29:10   opticals like there were all these [TS]

01:29:11   different configurations and this one [TS]

01:29:13   product that Apple you know this one [TS]

01:29:16   case with this one power supply with [TS]

01:29:18   this one set of supporting components [TS]

01:29:20   could be configured by Apple in a [TS]

01:29:22   modular fashion to solve a bunch of [TS]

01:29:25   people's needs differently in one [TS]

01:29:27   product that's what the pc tower gave [TS]

01:29:30   Apple that's what the Mac Pro had until [TS]

01:29:32   2013 and so when they say modular I'm [TS]

01:29:35   pretty sure that's the kind of thing [TS]

01:29:37   they're describing as opposed to the [TS]

01:29:39   2013 which is with this model you get [TS]

01:29:42   one cpu and two mid-range GPUs and [TS]

01:29:44   that's it like there was it was one [TS]

01:29:46   configuration you could make with that [TS]

01:29:47   one so that is what i would expect by [TS]

01:29:50   the word modular so I wouldn't get your [TS]

01:29:53   hopes up anybody out there about the [TS]

01:29:55   stacked components idea or even as as [TS]

01:29:58   you were saying even like user [TS]

01:29:59   replaceable stuff like you know I'm sure [TS]

01:30:01   like the RAM probably will be storage [TS]

01:30:04   maybe processors probably not i mean [TS]

01:30:08   like cpu upgrades haven't really been a [TS]

01:30:12   practical thing for quite some time [TS]

01:30:13   because basically like sockets that the [TS]

01:30:17   cpu plug into and like the motherboard [TS]

01:30:18   chipsets and everything those changed so [TS]

01:30:21   frequently that you can't really upgrade [TS]

01:30:24   to a processor that is newer than the [TS]

01:30:26   one you have you can you can move [TS]

01:30:28   laterally like within the same family [TS]

01:30:30   like if you bought the low-end one in [TS]

01:30:32   the family and then two years later you [TS]

01:30:34   can find the high-end one for sale [TS]

01:30:35   somewhere you could put that in but the [TS]

01:30:37   gain usually isn't that big the [TS]

01:30:38   difference between the low and the high [TS]

01:30:39   end within a single family like in a [TS]

01:30:41   single year isn't that big it like five [TS]

01:30:43   percent most of the time you could get [TS]

01:30:45   more cores with the mac pro but again [TS]

01:30:47   it's like it's a it's not as big of a [TS]

01:30:50   game as just buying a new one would get [TS]

01:30:52   you and doing a cpu upgrade on a modern [TS]

01:30:56   computer especially a mac pro with these [TS]

01:30:57   giant Zeon's in it involves so much like [TS]

01:31:00   messing with delicate and very important [TS]

01:31:03   thermal management things giant heat [TS]

01:31:05   sinks moving the fans around dealing [TS]

01:31:07   with these little fragile sockets and ow [TS]

01:31:09   pins the bottom of them like it would be [TS]

01:31:11   such a a crazy ordeal to put most people [TS]

01:31:14   through I would not expect anybody today [TS]

01:31:17   to consider the CPU in an average [TS]

01:31:20   person's computer to be user replaceable [TS]

01:31:21   so I definitely would not expect that to [TS]

01:31:24   ever happen again with Apple that's you [TS]

01:31:26   know it wouldn't surprise me to see [TS]

01:31:27   pubis tower to the board probably not [TS]

01:31:29   for component management reasons but [TS]

01:31:30   wouldn't surprise me so I don't want to [TS]

01:31:32   poo poo the the external stuff too much [TS]

01:31:34   because you're just like Oh nothing's [TS]

01:31:36   ever going to be external it's probably [TS]

01:31:37   the right choice for the mac pro but [TS]

01:31:39   Thunderbolt 3 does let you have things [TS]

01:31:44   that were previously inside the case [TS]

01:31:46   outside the case and so it is [TS]

01:31:49   conceivable but it advisable that Apple [TS]

01:31:51   could say hey we've solved the GPU [TS]

01:31:54   upgrading problem by putting it in a [TS]

01:31:56   separate box and already talked about [TS]

01:31:58   the Thunder ball three does not have [TS]

01:32:00   enough bandwidth to fully satisfy the [TS]

01:32:03   very very very top end cards in a [TS]

01:32:05   specific application where they need all [TS]

01:32:07   the PCI Express lanes that they could [TS]

01:32:09   have internally because the external [TS]

01:32:10   does not have as many lanes as [TS]

01:32:12   internally maybe you could gang tables [TS]

01:32:13   together or something like that but they [TS]

01:32:16   could do that but as you said another [TS]

01:32:19   external power supply cooling like it's [TS]

01:32:21   awkward the role of that is to make a [TS]

01:32:23   laptop have a decent GPU if Apple was [TS]

01:32:27   ever going to do something like that [TS]

01:32:28   they would do it for a laptop because [TS]

01:32:30   you can't put it inside the case [TS]

01:32:31   wouldn't it be cool if you could put [TS]

01:32:33   your laptop down and then connect it [TS]

01:32:35   with Thunderbolt 32 GPU that is not the [TS]

01:32:39   highest of the high end but it's so much [TS]

01:32:41   faster than the GPU that's inside your [TS]

01:32:43   case that it's a win so my hope my first [TS]

01:32:46   hope with the modular thing which I [TS]

01:32:48   interpreted this is the same as Casey [TS]

01:32:50   which is basically I'm just saying it as [TS]

01:32:51   a separate monitor I'm not even talking [TS]

01:32:53   about the internals interesting if [TS]

01:32:54   there's a box that doesn't have a [TS]

01:32:55   monitor it and as a monitor connected to [TS]

01:32:57   it that's my interpretation of modular [TS]

01:32:59   that's not modular that's no different [TS]

01:33:00   than the current mac pro right but it's [TS]

01:33:02   not the imac it's that's what to say [TS]

01:33:04   like we're going to make a new mac pro [TS]

01:33:05   and that's their way of saying and it's [TS]

01:33:07   not going to be an imac fro like that's [TS]

01:33:09   how I read yeah at their statement the [TS]

01:33:11   broadest level right so what what I hope [TS]

01:33:13   my first hope is that they do not have [TS]

01:33:16   an external GPU connected with [TS]

01:33:17   Thunderbolt on the new mac pro because [TS]

01:33:19   again the whole point of this computer [TS]

01:33:21   is to be the absolute [TS]

01:33:23   fastest thing that money can buy and if [TS]

01:33:26   you connect the GPU with a thunderbolt [TS]

01:33:27   three cable you are ready down behind [TS]

01:33:29   all the people who have internal stuff [TS]

01:33:31   forget about having a CPU connected [TS]

01:33:33   separately from this and that you like [TS]

01:33:34   just plain old taking on the GPU outside [TS]

01:33:37   the box is a bad idea from packaging and [TS]

01:33:39   it's a bad idea from performance [TS]

01:33:41   perspective really that I think to me as [TS]

01:33:44   we think through like what the new Mac [TS]

01:33:46   Pro should be and what it's likely to be [TS]

01:33:48   the question of whether the GPU is [TS]

01:33:51   internal or external I think decides a [TS]

01:33:54   lot of it for us and and I'm with you [TS]

01:33:56   John I think once you think it through [TS]

01:33:58   and think through the realities like no [TS]

01:34:01   question that Thunderbolt is great and [TS]

01:34:02   you can do external GPUs or thunderbolt [TS]

01:34:04   now but and they actually if you look up [TS]

01:34:07   like I know bare feet scom did a bunch [TS]

01:34:09   of tests a few months back and it turned [TS]

01:34:12   out that external GPUs for a lot of [TS]

01:34:14   applications it didn't really involve [TS]

01:34:16   tons of transfer to and from main memory [TS]

01:34:18   they actually did pretty well in the [TS]

01:34:21   external boxes yeah they can be just as [TS]

01:34:23   fast if you're not constrained by [TS]

01:34:24   bandwidth they're exactly as fast as if [TS]

01:34:26   they were internal but again the whole [TS]

01:34:28   point of this computer is to be the [TS]

01:34:30   absolute fastest at everything and say [TS]

01:34:32   you're doing some work load that does [TS]

01:34:33   take advantage of all those lines now [TS]

01:34:35   you're down some number of PCI Express [TS]

01:34:37   lanes now you're down bandwidth why why [TS]

01:34:39   take that hit for what advantages like [TS]

01:34:40   oh well if its external we can upgrade [TS]

01:34:42   easily well guess what if its internal [TS]

01:34:44   you can upgrade easily through this [TS]

01:34:45   amazing technology we call cards no but [TS]

01:34:49   without that I was gonna get into the [TS]

01:34:50   upgrade business but like like you like [TS]

01:34:52   you both said Apple can upgrade it maybe [TS]

01:34:54   they'll never let you upgrade it but [TS]

01:34:55   next year they can swap out one of the [TS]

01:34:57   GPUs and put in a new one and say here's [TS]

01:34:59   the speed bump to mac pro now with new [TS]

01:35:02   GPU options because we built them with [TS]

01:35:04   enough cooling capacity that's that's [TS]

01:35:05   what we're talking about here not even [TS]

01:35:07   like oh you'll be able to take your GPU [TS]

01:35:09   out and put in new and yourself which [TS]

01:35:10   you probably will be able to do by [TS]

01:35:11   taking PC GPUs and flashing them and all [TS]

01:35:13   the other stuff but in terms of apple [TS]

01:35:15   support and stuff that in internal [TS]

01:35:18   versus external does not give Apple any [TS]

01:35:20   more flexibility in terms of modularity [TS]

01:35:22   right and I also like I like kind of [TS]

01:35:25   like product wise i cannot see Apple [TS]

01:35:28   shipping a portion of a computer that [TS]

01:35:31   does not contain a GPU like their [TS]

01:35:34   contain the internal one and they were [TS]

01:35:35   just switching yep [TS]

01:35:37   God like a computer these days needs a [TS]

01:35:41   GPU to do anything all right like you're [TS]

01:35:42   not gonna use me people that GPU sorry [TS]

01:35:44   linux people or you know in bed of [TS]

01:35:45   routers but you know for that I'm not [TS]

01:35:47   talking about that and so they're not [TS]

01:35:49   going to sell you like the the base Mac [TS]

01:35:51   Pro box that doesn't have a GPU they're [TS]

01:35:55   going to put one in there like that's [TS]

01:35:57   not the way Apple would do things [TS]

01:35:58   without that so if you're going to have [TS]

01:36:00   a GPU that comes with the computer it [TS]

01:36:02   might as well be internal like that they [TS]

01:36:04   would make no sense to put external so I [TS]

01:36:05   think once you have kind of realized [TS]

01:36:09   like okay there's going to be an [TS]

01:36:10   internal GPU and they've already talked [TS]

01:36:13   about modularity and they've talked [TS]

01:36:14   about upgrades easily in the future you [TS]

01:36:17   know for them updates I should say [TS]

01:36:18   updates easily in the future they're [TS]

01:36:21   basically going towards a pc tower right [TS]

01:36:24   so what other parts of a pc tower are [TS]

01:36:27   still needed today you know we mentioned [TS]

01:36:29   earlier they needed there's lots of [TS]

01:36:32   things like you know optical drive bays [TS]

01:36:33   that you don't really need anymore right [TS]

01:36:35   upgradeable ram is an easy one that's [TS]

01:36:38   going to be in there but we already have [TS]

01:36:39   that you don't need to make a tower to [TS]

01:36:41   have you know you have it in the imac [TS]

01:36:42   you had it in laptops until very [TS]

01:36:43   recently so we already have upgradeable [TS]

01:36:46   ram you know you can just have a little [TS]

01:36:47   time the door somewhere and have that be [TS]

01:36:49   it so you don't need a tower for that [TS]

01:36:50   you don't need optical bays you John you [TS]

01:36:55   said earlier that you don't need three [TS]

01:36:57   and a half inch bays I think you're [TS]

01:36:58   probably right but I'm not a hundred [TS]

01:37:00   percent confident in that because here's [TS]

01:37:03   the thing when I first when I was first [TS]

01:37:04   trying to think about this I was [TS]

01:37:05   thinking you know you don't really need [TS]

01:37:07   three and a half inch drive bays anymore [TS]

01:37:09   because you can today you can get a four [TS]

01:37:12   terabyte SSD all right and it's not it [TS]

01:37:14   isn't even that ridiculously expensive [TS]

01:37:15   and the two terabyte ones which is about [TS]

01:37:18   as much space as most people need on the [TS]

01:37:19   desktop see most of the time two [TS]

01:37:21   terabyte SSDs are actually inexpensive [TS]

01:37:23   now they're actually like only a few [TS]

01:37:25   hundred hours and by the time this thing [TS]

01:37:27   comes out in you know 2018 or beyond [TS]

01:37:30   that'll be even cheaper and so at first [TS]

01:37:33   I was like well you don't really need [TS]

01:37:34   three and a half inch base because what [TS]

01:37:36   if SSDs can be that cheap they can put a [TS]

01:37:39   couple of like the stick kind and I'm [TS]

01:37:40   not even saying like you know if you're [TS]

01:37:43   a building computer to have a bunch SSDs [TS]

01:37:44   in it you might use 2.5 inch drive base [TS]

01:37:47   which is like a little one that SSDs and [TS]

01:37:48   laptop hard drives use but [TS]

01:37:50   that's starred skeuomorphism right there [TS]

01:37:52   215 and jess's these come on right like [TS]

01:37:55   you don't even need that anymore because [TS]

01:37:57   not only are the SSDs a lot smaller but [TS]

01:37:59   also like the interface standards like [TS]

01:38:01   the the SATA standard PCI Express you're [TS]

01:38:04   not coming through SATA that's not a [TS]

01:38:05   spinning disk exactly so like you're [TS]

01:38:08   going to have some kind of directly [TS]

01:38:09   connected PCI Express SSDs and whether [TS]

01:38:11   they're on little slots like a little [TS]

01:38:12   like em to stick things whatever they [TS]

01:38:14   are they're probably going to be on [TS]

01:38:16   slots where I at least for Apple to [TS]

01:38:17   surface and replace them when they die [TS]

01:38:18   so and it would be nice to have more [TS]

01:38:21   than one of those it'd be great to have [TS]

01:38:22   to SSD slots maybe so you can configure [TS]

01:38:25   it at purchase time probably with more [TS]

01:38:27   stories that be awesome but I wouldn't [TS]

01:38:30   expect more than that for ssds however [TS]

01:38:32   you can kind of make an argument that [TS]

01:38:35   you know if they would just put like one [TS]

01:38:37   or two three and a half inch bays in [TS]

01:38:39   there you know a ten terabyte hard disk [TS]

01:38:43   is just four hundred bucks right now but [TS]

01:38:46   it's just too slow it is really slow to [TS]

01:38:49   be your to be your boot drive right but [TS]

01:38:51   like put Pro users so many Pro users [TS]

01:38:54   need to work with very large files that [TS]

01:38:57   they almost all of them use these these [TS]

01:39:00   you know incredibly expensive [TS]

01:39:02   complicated loud giant external raid [TS]

01:39:05   boxes and stuff if you would put two [TS]

01:39:07   three and a half range Bay's inside this [TS]

01:39:09   machine that could accommodate lots of [TS]

01:39:11   that in a really nice way now I'm not [TS]

01:39:13   saying necessarily that this is [TS]

01:39:14   definitely one Apple should do and I'm [TS]

01:39:16   almost certainly not saying that this is [TS]

01:39:18   what they will do I bet they there's no [TS]

01:39:19   I really want this any chance they would [TS]

01:39:21   they would do this but a three and a [TS]

01:39:24   half inch day inside something that's [TS]

01:39:26   big enough to have a GPU on a slot is [TS]

01:39:28   nothing it's like three and half days [TS]

01:39:30   aren't that big right and so you know it [TS]

01:39:33   wouldn't take a lot for Apple to fit [TS]

01:39:36   this into whatever shape this is going [TS]

01:39:38   to take that that being said though [TS]

01:39:39   again I don't think they will I don't [TS]

01:39:41   that's very realistic but I would go the [TS]

01:39:43   reverse of what you said I would say [TS]

01:39:44   that I don't think they should do it but [TS]

01:39:48   i can actually envision them doing it [TS]

01:39:50   because they really are having this this [TS]

01:39:52   self reflective moment about the man [TS]

01:39:55   marrow and atoning for mistakes i think [TS]

01:39:57   they would actually entertain the idea [TS]

01:39:58   which is you know inconceivable from the [TS]

01:40:01   perspective of the trash can [TS]

01:40:03   they would entertain this idea but I [TS]

01:40:04   think they should not do it like my my [TS]

01:40:07   vision of what if I had advised them [TS]

01:40:08   both what they should make him but what [TS]

01:40:10   I want which coincidentally are very [TS]

01:40:11   close to the same thing did I think all [TS]

01:40:16   they need to do to atone is all the [TS]

01:40:17   things there he said they're going to do [TS]

01:40:18   which is make it so that you can change [TS]

01:40:20   the parts year-over-year to make them [TS]

01:40:21   faster which necessitates a certain [TS]

01:40:24   amount of cooling and power structure [TS]

01:40:25   and honestly for the past since the [TS]

01:40:29   power mac g5 the probe apple desktop [TS]

01:40:34   line has you know Dave Johnny I've even [TS]

01:40:37   said in his own intro video for the [TS]

01:40:38   power mac g5 has been basically making a [TS]

01:40:42   box to extract heat from components like [TS]

01:40:45   that is modeled after a heat exchanger [TS]

01:40:47   like that's why the cheese grater looks [TS]

01:40:49   the way it does he actually talked about [TS]

01:40:50   heat exchangers like you know up and up [TS]

01:40:52   in a room or whatever take air one [TS]

01:40:54   temperature in and extract heat from it [TS]

01:40:56   and you know like that's what these [TS]

01:40:58   boxes are all about the cheese grater is [TS]

01:41:00   about that the the the trash can is [TS]

01:41:02   about that it's a chimney right so [TS]

01:41:04   megabox or doesn't to be a box make it [TS]

01:41:07   make a case that can support the thermal [TS]

01:41:09   load of all the parts that you could [TS]

01:41:11   possibly put in it that means you have [TS]

01:41:12   to support two really hot cpus maybe [TS]

01:41:15   also two really hot GPUs or some [TS]

01:41:18   combination thereof so you can upgrade [TS]

01:41:19   them year-over-year you have to have [TS]

01:41:21   excess capacity and one great thing [TS]

01:41:22   about cheese grater is it has excess [TS]

01:41:24   cooling capacity like it was made for [TS]

01:41:27   chips on such an old process that we're [TS]

01:41:29   so incredibly hot like I mean they made [TS]

01:41:31   a water-cooled one at one point you know [TS]

01:41:33   there was room for that in there there's [TS]

01:41:34   so much you know you can cool almost [TS]

01:41:36   anything in this box it is huge it has [TS]

01:41:38   direct airflow from back to front you [TS]

01:41:40   know works great you have plenty of room [TS]

01:41:42   for different arrangement of fans not [TS]

01:41:43   that I'm saying they're gonna make [TS]

01:41:44   something that big but so make a box [TS]

01:41:45   with adequate cooling and you know [TS]

01:41:48   upgradable and the next thing I think [TS]

01:41:51   that we need to do is get what you were [TS]

01:41:52   getting at it's like what things can we [TS]

01:41:54   remove obviously you need to have tons [TS]

01:41:55   of ports all Thunder both free and all [TS]

01:41:57   that other stuff you know high-speed [TS]

01:41:58   Ethernet put 10 gig Ethernet on put two [TS]

01:42:01   separate Ethernet buzzes like do [TS]

01:42:02   everything you can use all those pci [TS]

01:42:03   express lanes on the back of the thing [TS]

01:42:04   and then for storage i think it would be [TS]

01:42:08   the right thing to do to have more than [TS]

01:42:10   one internal storage thingy more than [TS]

01:42:13   one internal SSD because they are so [TS]

01:42:15   small to be able to support not [TS]

01:42:17   3.5 inch drive for bulk storage again I [TS]

01:42:19   think they might consider especially if [TS]

01:42:20   they have a lot of room in the case [TS]

01:42:21   because well for all the reasons you [TS]

01:42:23   said but I think they should not do [TS]

01:42:24   instead they should let me have three or [TS]

01:42:26   four internal SSDs which they will [TS]

01:42:28   charge an arm and a leg for but that I [TS]

01:42:31   think gives all the advantage you're [TS]

01:42:32   looking for which is like you know what [TS]

01:42:34   if I don't want to have a giant raid [TS]

01:42:35   array I just want to have adequate [TS]

01:42:36   internal storage and SSDs you know you [TS]

01:42:40   can only get them so big but if I could [TS]

01:42:42   have 42 gig internal SSDs that are super [TS]

01:42:48   fast because their internal right like [TS]

01:42:50   that's what you want out of it I think [TS]

01:42:51   there's plenty of room for one to two [TS]

01:42:54   GPUs one to two CPUs and one two three [TS]

01:42:58   or four very fast PCI Express SSD thinks [TS]

01:43:02   and that to me looks like in whatever [TS]

01:43:04   shape they put it a modern Mac Pro [TS]

01:43:07   especially if you're saying those SSDs [TS]

01:43:08   eventually be replaced with obtain you [TS]

01:43:10   know three crosspoint whatever thing [TS]

01:43:13   Intel's coming up with it's even faster [TS]

01:43:14   still is that how you say that I don't [TS]

01:43:16   know X point but you know anyway like [TS]

01:43:19   that's the point of this machine very [TS]

01:43:21   very fast storage and yeah external [TS]

01:43:23   storage is great for bulk storage and [TS]

01:43:24   everything but it'll never be as fast as [TS]

01:43:26   internal storage and I don't want to [TS]

01:43:28   just have oh my boot drives internal and [TS]

01:43:30   everything else their work with his [TS]

01:43:31   outside mistakes of the past don't make [TS]

01:43:34   it so darn small that you only have room [TS]

01:43:35   for one tiny little SS deep as the [TS]

01:43:37   things are like the size of a thumb [TS]

01:43:38   drive practically inside there they're [TS]

01:43:39   so small you have plenty of room to put [TS]

01:43:42   four of those inside there and no five [TS]

01:43:44   and a quarter bay is no three and a [TS]

01:43:45   quarter bay has no 2.5 inch base but you [TS]

01:43:48   have room for that if they made that [TS]

01:43:49   machine with that combination of things [TS]

01:43:51   that would be upgradable by Apple and [TS]

01:43:54   upgradable by industrious Packers and [TS]

01:43:56   having more than one internal storage [TS]

01:43:59   thingy all which are SuperDuper fast and [TS]

01:44:02   that third parties could sell into I [TS]

01:44:04   think that would cover all their needs [TS]

01:44:06   and all the sins of the past while not [TS]

01:44:09   looking backwards and while foregoing [TS]

01:44:12   the 3.5 inch straight even though like [TS]

01:44:13   using like this this could keep people [TS]

01:44:15   from having to go for the big array even [TS]

01:44:17   longer because I just I just think any [TS]

01:44:20   spinning thing inside this case is a [TS]

01:44:22   non-starter and is not forward-looking [TS]

01:44:24   so I would not save space forward and I [TS]

01:44:26   would use the space that I get from that [TS]

01:44:28   to put that other stuff in that's a [TS]

01:44:30   reasonable [TS]

01:44:31   the only thing I will say though is that [TS]

01:44:32   all of these super awesome PCI Express [TS]

01:44:36   SSD systems need a good amount of PCI [TS]

01:44:40   Express Lanes to make them fast and one [TS]

01:44:42   of the issues with the current mac pro [TS]

01:44:44   is that there actually aren't enough pci [TS]

01:44:46   express lanes to really add anything [TS]

01:44:48   more to it than what it has now and so [TS]

01:44:50   in if you have the slots inside you know [TS]

01:44:54   if you have like you know for you know [TS]

01:44:57   em to wherever they are SSD slots then [TS]

01:45:00   you have to have allocated the pci [TS]

01:45:02   express lanes to assume that those are [TS]

01:45:05   going to be in use and then you maybe [TS]

01:45:08   you don't have enough to also have two [TS]

01:45:09   high-power GPUs and the ethernet port [TS]

01:45:11   and you know stuff like that's like [TS]

01:45:12   that's what makes it a configurable [TS]

01:45:14   system you could say hey if you want to [TS]

01:45:16   have four really fast internalized it's [TS]

01:45:17   easier to give up something you can't [TS]

01:45:18   have two GPUs and like like in other [TS]

01:45:20   words out be able to configure the [TS]

01:45:22   machine or Apple just let Apple can [TS]

01:45:23   figure not you like it's a built the [TS]

01:45:25   water where you get to pick and choose [TS]

01:45:26   everything but Apple can make different [TS]

01:45:27   configurations here's the one for people [TS]

01:45:29   who need a single modest cpu one really [TS]

01:45:33   fast GPU and tons of fat storage and [TS]

01:45:35   here's the people who need two of the [TS]

01:45:37   fastest GPUs but storage is less of a [TS]

01:45:40   concern and a moderate CPU like you're [TS]

01:45:42   right that the lanes have limit but [TS]

01:45:43   again the whole point is machine is [TS]

01:45:44   stable they will choose the chips and [TS]

01:45:46   chipsets from Intel they give the [TS]

01:45:48   maximum number of PCI Express lanes that [TS]

01:45:50   money can buy and then it's up to Apple [TS]

01:45:52   to allocate those in arrangements that [TS]

01:45:55   serve all the different needs that's [TS]

01:45:56   fair I'm just saying one of those needs [TS]

01:45:58   may be the one that says hey I want to [TS]

01:46:00   have more than one internal storage [TS]

01:46:01   thingy because if you don't you just [TS]

01:46:02   then it's going to be like a sand over [TS]

01:46:04   10 gig Ethernet like you can't datas got [TS]

01:46:06   to get into the system somehow anyway [TS]

01:46:07   like you're just going to go through a [TS]

01:46:09   bridge chip and get into the hole you [TS]

01:46:10   know like it's all it all ends up in the [TS]

01:46:13   same place only is to get into the [TS]

01:46:14   computer somehow so it's not as if by [TS]

01:46:16   not having internal storage you suddenly [TS]

01:46:18   get more bandwidth for storage you don't [TS]

01:46:20   just you know it zips through a smaller [TS]

01:46:22   hose outside the computer and then I'm [TS]

01:46:24   curious to know your thoughts about [TS]

01:46:27   whether we think they would actually use [TS]

01:46:30   like standard PC slot GPU sized things [TS]

01:46:35   or whether the GPUs would take it would [TS]

01:46:38   be like a custom smaller Apple slot [TS]

01:46:40   because to me that there's there's clear [TS]

01:46:42   advantages to both I mean [TS]

01:46:45   number one like if it's if it's a PC [TS]

01:46:47   like standard one like the old Mac Pro [TS]

01:46:49   use like the pc the GPUs in the in the [TS]

01:46:51   cheese grater were really just pc GPUs [TS]

01:46:54   like with apple firmware and custom [TS]

01:46:56   apple driver support but they you know [TS]

01:46:57   they weren't that different if you go [TS]

01:47:00   that way then it's easier for Apple to [TS]

01:47:03   keep updated and I really do think you [TS]

01:47:04   know they they said you know a number of [TS]

01:47:07   the apple deck use in that meeting [TS]

01:47:08   seemed to say this over and over again [TS]

01:47:10   which is they want the new Mac Pro to be [TS]

01:47:12   something they can keep updated [TS]

01:47:14   frequently and so if the GPUs are not [TS]

01:47:18   something crazy custom that's you know [TS]

01:47:20   just for Apple but if they're just [TS]

01:47:21   regular slot GPUs then that could [TS]

01:47:25   probably help them achieve that goal a [TS]

01:47:27   lot on the other side of it though like [TS]

01:47:29   if they do the slot GPUs then you know [TS]

01:47:32   assuming that that there that there at [TS]

01:47:33   all user replaceable then they're not [TS]

01:47:37   going to be like integrated with the [TS]

01:47:38   system's cooling thing so they're gonna [TS]

01:47:40   have to have like you know 16 different [TS]

01:47:41   fans in there because the GP is gonna [TS]

01:47:43   have its own fan that by the way GPU [TS]

01:47:44   fans die constantly so they're going to [TS]

01:47:46   the GPUs can have its own little stupid [TS]

01:47:47   fans gonna be loud and filled with dust [TS]

01:47:49   and die all the time and then the rest [TS]

01:47:50   of the system's going to have all these [TS]

01:47:51   different heat sink all over the place [TS]

01:47:52   like the old one did if they do [TS]

01:47:54   something custom it would be harder to [TS]

01:47:57   keep updated it would be more work [TS]

01:47:59   they'd be more likely to neglect it like [TS]

01:48:01   the current one but also like the [TS]

01:48:03   current one they could integrate the [TS]

01:48:05   GPUs cooling needs into some kind of [TS]

01:48:07   larger combined cooling system and so [TS]

01:48:11   and that would therefore probably be a [TS]

01:48:13   nicer product as it would be quieter and [TS]

01:48:15   it would be you know easier and more [TS]

01:48:16   reliable to cool if they gave it enough [TS]

01:48:19   capacity but let the current one so I [TS]

01:48:21   can kind of see both sides of this if [TS]

01:48:24   you make it the custom apple thing you [TS]

01:48:27   have I think more flexibility to design [TS]

01:48:30   a really cool new product books as we [TS]

01:48:32   mentioned we're not actually sure that's [TS]

01:48:34   what they should do but if you do it the [TS]

01:48:36   pc way the more you think about like [TS]

01:48:39   what's going to be in this new Mac Pro [TS]

01:48:41   the more it seems to me that it's [TS]

01:48:44   basically just going to be like the [TS]

01:48:47   bottom half of the cheese grater like [TS]

01:48:49   and maybe you know they can tweak [TS]

01:48:50   certain things a little bit it within [TS]

01:48:52   that design but if it has to accommodate [TS]

01:48:54   regular PC graphics card slots and [TS]

01:48:56   especially presumably would accommodate [TS]

01:48:59   more than one and even if it maxed out [TS]

01:49:01   at two unlike the old when I think you [TS]

01:49:03   could put for low powered ones and but [TS]

01:49:04   even if it maxed out at two big honkin [TS]

01:49:07   GPUs just to design something that could [TS]

01:49:10   accommodate that even if they didn't [TS]

01:49:13   even even even if they didn't offer dual [TS]

01:49:14   cpu options which I hope they do but I [TS]

01:49:17   wouldn't bet on that that it very [TS]

01:49:21   quickly becomes a pc tower you know and [TS]

01:49:23   whether it's just like really short and [TS]

01:49:25   doesn't have any drive base or not is a [TS]

01:49:26   question but it doesn't really matter if [TS]

01:49:29   it has to accommodate those standard GPU [TS]

01:49:31   sizes and more than one of them it's [TS]

01:49:33   going to basically look like a small pc [TS]

01:49:35   tower right well the question is whether [TS]

01:49:37   what is the what is the barrier to them [TS]

01:49:42   updating the GPU it's like that if they [TS]

01:49:43   went with a custom thing it would be [TS]

01:49:44   harder for them to upgrade the GPU i I'm [TS]

01:49:46   not entirely sure that's the case [TS]

01:49:49   because updating the GPU like they can [TS]

01:49:53   get the chip and like the chipset and [TS]

01:49:56   the reference board that goes with it [TS]

01:49:57   the packaging of what you're talking [TS]

01:49:59   about is like pcs like they have all [TS]

01:50:01   this cooling and then this is other fan [TS]

01:50:02   that's facing a totally different [TS]

01:50:04   direction like 90 degrees that the whole [TS]

01:50:05   rest of the airflow that's cooling the [TS]

01:50:07   car because they're sold module and [TS]

01:50:09   usually and set his own slot on the back [TS]

01:50:11   because it has that you know the double [TS]

01:50:12   width slot cover thing to blow the air [TS]

01:50:15   at the back and fill of dust it it is [TS]

01:50:17   his own it is his own little cooling [TS]

01:50:19   universe because it's modular right but [TS]

01:50:21   I think Apple can can actually use like [TS]

01:50:25   the work of the pc industry hey we have [TS]

01:50:27   a new chip and you chip set a new [TS]

01:50:29   reference design new card a new like the [TS]

01:50:31   whole nine yards but not take their [TS]

01:50:34   cooling solutions it would still be in [TS]

01:50:36   some kind of slot but that apple would [TS]

01:50:38   have their own cooling soldiers because [TS]

01:50:39   again i don't think apple cares that you [TS]

01:50:41   can upgrade it after that they're not [TS]

01:50:42   going to sell new cards for it if you [TS]

01:50:44   want to do some weird third party thing [TS]

01:50:45   in hacking in like apples not supporting [TS]

01:50:47   you it's not a thing that they've done [TS]

01:50:48   in years and years so I I have to think [TS]

01:50:52   that no matter what they even if they [TS]

01:50:53   make a rectangle that they are going to [TS]

01:50:55   do their own cooling solution because I [TS]

01:50:57   think I think they're off the train of [TS]

01:50:58   doing like a card with its own like you [TS]

01:51:01   said terrible you can't tell or what we [TS]

01:51:03   used to call them video coolers or that [TS]

01:51:06   they had a weird name that people used [TS]

01:51:08   to call them for the those horrible fans [TS]

01:51:10   that would be attached to your GPU there [TS]

01:51:11   would always be the first thing to die [TS]

01:51:12   your system I think those days are gone [TS]

01:51:14   for Apple even if they use an actual [TS]

01:51:18   card you know full length or half like [TS]

01:51:20   card like in a slot that looks like a [TS]

01:51:24   plan I think they will still do custom [TS]

01:51:26   cooling because I think to design a good [TS]

01:51:28   case with thermal capacity the apples [TS]

01:51:32   recent designs and even even on the Mac [TS]

01:51:34   Pro's to some degree like they're all [TS]

01:51:35   working towards let's design the airflow [TS]

01:51:39   as one like one system for maximum [TS]

01:51:42   capacity and takings other little island [TS]

01:51:44   of cooling and chucking it in the middle [TS]

01:51:46   I've got my own fan I'll put my intake [TS]

01:51:47   here and like first of all they pull [TS]

01:51:49   their intake from inside the case and [TS]

01:51:51   that they do exhaust the outside through [TS]

01:51:52   their back little slot thing right but [TS]

01:51:53   like that is so so not how to [TS]

01:51:57   efficiently design you know a system [TS]

01:52:00   like an apple style system for cooling [TS]

01:52:02   which is why that you know the the [TS]

01:52:04   trashcan Mac Pro wasn't like that and [TS]

01:52:06   why in from the g5 until today it has [TS]

01:52:09   always been so incongruous to open up [TS]

01:52:10   these machines and see the carefully [TS]

01:52:12   planned air flows and channels and then [TS]

01:52:13   see the cooler the video cooler sitting [TS]

01:52:16   on its thing doing its thing often and [TS]

01:52:18   the side of the world so it really [TS]

01:52:20   depends I think on like does that will [TS]

01:52:22   think that doing that doing custom [TS]

01:52:24   cooling or even a custom form factor for [TS]

01:52:26   the card is that too onerous that will [TS]

01:52:28   actually stop them from updating gb was [TS]

01:52:30   like oh we would love to upgrade the GP [TS]

01:52:31   but we can't just take a new thing and [TS]

01:52:32   slap it in there or will they say well [TS]

01:52:36   you know we just need to have cooling [TS]

01:52:37   enough cooling capacity and a way to [TS]

01:52:39   design a cooling solution and we will [TS]

01:52:41   take your board and your chip and plug [TS]

01:52:43   it into a standard slot and then slaps [TS]

01:52:46   on to it alien facehugger style will be [TS]

01:52:50   our cooling solution that indicated that [TS]

01:52:51   integrates with the whole rest of our [TS]

01:52:53   cooling flow inside the case so if I had [TS]

01:52:55   if I had to bet I would say they are [TS]

01:52:57   going to go with custom cooling even if [TS]

01:52:59   the cards themselves are standard now on [TS]

01:53:01   the trash can the cards themselves are [TS]

01:53:03   not standard they're not in standard [TS]

01:53:04   slots they're you know they're they're [TS]

01:53:06   on the outside of a weird triangle thing [TS]

01:53:08   which is no arrangement than any pc [TS]

01:53:09   motherboard they like that is custom [TS]

01:53:11   head to toe and that didn't work out so [TS]

01:53:13   I don't think they need to go that [TS]

01:53:14   extreme I totally think they can have [TS]

01:53:16   cards but I'm thinking the best bet is [TS]

01:53:18   to go with custom cooling which means [TS]

01:53:19   you will not be able to yank that thing [TS]

01:53:22   out go by envia car off the shelf [TS]

01:53:26   shove it in without doing some you know [TS]

01:53:28   pretty fancy hardware hacking to get [TS]

01:53:31   their giant cooler in there because I [TS]

01:53:33   I'm just have trouble envisioning a box [TS]

01:53:35   that would accommodate that that isn't [TS]

01:53:36   literally the size of the cheese grater [TS]

01:53:38   maybe with some parts of it lopped off [TS]

01:53:40   the top and Bob because those cards are [TS]

01:53:41   huge the coolers to come with a huge [TS]

01:53:43   they're noisy it's just it's just gross [TS]

01:53:45   so basically we we've basically [TS]

01:53:48   redesigned the mac pro for apple in two [TS]

01:53:50   hours yeah that was so easy what's [TS]

01:53:52   taking them so long yes yeah so and I [TS]

01:53:55   think you know to to to close out I [TS]

01:53:58   think for now what I think they're going [TS]

01:54:00   to do with this sort isn't they should [TS]

01:54:01   do with this you know as you work [TS]

01:54:04   through what this machine should be I [TS]

01:54:07   think it's a lot more like the cheese [TS]

01:54:09   grater than like the trashcan and even [TS]

01:54:11   though the cheese grater was definitely [TS]

01:54:13   outdated and should have significant [TS]

01:54:16   editing done to it and significant [TS]

01:54:17   change is done to it I think what we've [TS]

01:54:19   ended up with is to make a good Mac Pro [TS]

01:54:22   you need to go more towards that style [TS]

01:54:25   whether it's just the bottom half of it [TS]

01:54:27   lopped off or whether it's you know more [TS]

01:54:29   design and this is not going to be a [TS]

01:54:33   sexy high PR product for Johnny I've to [TS]

01:54:38   feel really good about it's not it's [TS]

01:54:40   because it's going to be a some form of [TS]

01:54:42   pc tower of something you know it's [TS]

01:54:44   going to be utilitarian more than it's [TS]

01:54:47   going to be a fashion object but this if [TS]

01:54:50   Apple has to do that this is the one Mac [TS]

01:54:53   in the entire Mac lineup that must [TS]

01:54:56   sacrifice appearance for functionality [TS]

01:54:59   if that choice is necessary to make if [TS]

01:55:01   they come to a point where they have to [TS]

01:55:04   decide whether to make this thing cooler [TS]

01:55:07   and prettier or whether to make it more [TS]

01:55:09   utilitarian every other mac you could [TS]

01:55:12   make a case maybe they should go to the [TS]

01:55:13   direction not the mac pro it has to [TS]

01:55:16   always go to functionality first because [TS]

01:55:19   it has to satisfy the widest range of [TS]

01:55:23   pro needs possible that are not [TS]

01:55:25   satisfied by the imac the imac already [TS]

01:55:29   has the high end nicely designed [TS]

01:55:31   computer covered the imac is that it is [TS]

01:55:34   it is great at that the mac pro must be [TS]

01:55:37   utilitarian even if it comes to the [TS]

01:55:40   expense of the coolest tiniest you know [TS]

01:55:42   smallest thinnest thing they could make [TS]

01:55:44   the more tower like that it gets the [TS]

01:55:47   more the design they choose for it [TS]

01:55:49   resembles a tower the more it offers [TS]

01:55:52   above the imac and the easier and [TS]

01:55:54   cheaper it is for Apple to keep it [TS]

01:55:56   updated I just don't agree with the way [TS]

01:55:58   you're characterizing that because I [TS]

01:55:59   think the g3 g4 and power mac g5 cases [TS]

01:56:04   were awesome looking they were fantastic [TS]

01:56:07   they were the best looking things Apple [TS]

01:56:09   had made I don't think they sacrificed [TS]

01:56:12   the beauty and design of those cases at [TS]

01:56:14   all and they also delivered amazing [TS]

01:56:17   utility right so I get what you're [TS]

01:56:18   saying like I think the way to phrase it [TS]

01:56:21   would be more like what federighi said [TS]

01:56:23   where we came up what we wanted which [TS]

01:56:25   was like two GPUs and a cpu and then [TS]

01:56:28   they they pulled in like they basically [TS]

01:56:30   said how small and quiet and elegant a [TS]

01:56:34   case can we get this exact amount of [TS]

01:56:35   power like they pulled in the edges as [TS]

01:56:37   far as they could go like they shrink [TS]

01:56:38   wrapped it down that's the wrong [TS]

01:56:40   approach right instead of saying here's [TS]

01:56:43   what we want to build now let's put it [TS]

01:56:44   in a beautiful case that has like ten [TS]

01:56:47   times that cooling capacity right so [TS]

01:56:49   that we have so much Headroom that no [TS]

01:56:51   matter what comes down the line we have [TS]

01:56:52   places to put all that stuff and I think [TS]

01:56:55   there is tremendous freedom to make it [TS]

01:56:57   should be the sexiest looking computer [TS]

01:56:59   that makes because it can be [TS]

01:57:00   fantastically weird like no other [TS]

01:57:02   computer you just have to make sure you [TS]

01:57:04   don't like you said make those [TS]

01:57:06   trade-offs where you're like oh I have a [TS]

01:57:07   great idea let's make it shaped like a [TS]

01:57:09   corkscrew and we can fit the pieces in [TS]

01:57:11   the corkscrew and they can go in a [TS]

01:57:12   little so it's like no wait a second you [TS]

01:57:15   know you may think corkscrews are cool [TS]

01:57:16   or maybe we could fit these parts [TS]

01:57:18   exactly in a corkscrew but that [TS]

01:57:21   corkscrew has no Headroom that corkscrew [TS]

01:57:23   is the wrong choice for this you know so [TS]

01:57:24   don't or whatever making it super duper [TS]

01:57:26   flat like yours a mac pro that's like [TS]

01:57:28   it's like an imac with no monitor it's [TS]

01:57:29   so incredibly flat and thin right just [TS]

01:57:32   lays I don't know underneath your feet [TS]

01:57:33   and you put your feet on it keeps them [TS]

01:57:34   warm like stuff like that is where your [TS]

01:57:37   where I get what you're saying like [TS]

01:57:38   don't make that trade-off right but I [TS]

01:57:40   disagree that this shouldn't be sexy I [TS]

01:57:42   think it should be the sexiest computer [TS]

01:57:44   that Apple makes and I think there you [TS]

01:57:46   have the flexibility to make it sexy [TS]

01:57:48   because it doesn't have to have a [TS]

01:57:49   monitor in it it can be insanely [TS]

01:57:51   expensive and [TS]

01:57:53   you have don't have the size limits of [TS]

01:57:55   portability so by all means make this [TS]

01:57:58   thing awesome-looking make it look like [TS]

01:57:59   i don't know make make it you can make a [TS]

01:58:01   look a Death Star as long as the sphere [TS]

01:58:02   is big enough to support tremendous [TS]

01:58:04   amount of cooling like go nuts it can be [TS]

01:58:06   black and shiny and chrome and you know [TS]

01:58:09   whatever you want to do to it I I [TS]

01:58:10   picture in my head something that even [TS]

01:58:12   just a rectangular solid but the right [TS]

01:58:14   surface finishes right would would be [TS]

01:58:17   really cool like a couple of well-placed [TS]

01:58:19   white LEDs you know not saying has to be [TS]

01:58:22   have ground effects on it and have water [TS]

01:58:24   bubbling through it or whatever I Lily [TS]

01:58:26   did that with the g5 I was at the g5 [TS]

01:58:29   that the water cooled when I forget [TS]

01:58:30   anyway yeah I am I want this to be [TS]

01:58:33   exciting and sexy just you know and [TS]

01:58:37   again i point to the the whole the [TS]

01:58:40   Yosemite el capit├ín line of cases that [TS]

01:58:43   all sorts of weird surface finishes with [TS]

01:58:46   in the same basic but also very weird [TS]

01:58:48   and cool shaped hiding the fact that [TS]

01:58:50   guess what inside it was a gigantic [TS]

01:58:52   rectangle with with reasonably good [TS]

01:58:53   cooling and the g5 the same thing I [TS]

01:58:55   think it looks pretty cool to buy now [TS]

01:58:57   we're bored with it because it's ancient [TS]

01:58:58   right but it did its job and it did it [TS]

01:59:02   with style and pizzazz and elegance and [TS]

01:59:06   it wasn't is cool but it was also a [TS]

01:59:10   workhorse and so on I want it all I want [TS]

01:59:12   sexiness and utilitarian this and I [TS]

01:59:15   think I think it's possible i think [TS]

01:59:16   apples proved as possible yeah i agree i [TS]

01:59:19   mean you know the other funny thing is [TS]

01:59:21   like by by going from the big [TS]

01:59:26   utilitarian silver rectangle that [TS]

01:59:29   weighed fifty pounds and sat on the [TS]

01:59:30   floor to the little black cylinder it [TS]

01:59:33   had to come off the floor it had to sit [TS]

01:59:35   on your desk as a question do you want [TS]

01:59:37   this on the desk of the floor the new [TS]

01:59:39   one right and honestly I really greatly [TS]

01:59:41   prefer it on the floor because it allows [TS]

01:59:44   for like neater cleaner cable routing if [TS]

01:59:46   there's any noise produced by it it's [TS]

01:59:48   further from your ear and your [TS]

01:59:49   podcasting microphone and it just to me [TS]

01:59:52   it gets everything out of the way and it [TS]

01:59:56   is with you the only thing is though to [TS]

01:59:57   be on the floor it does have to be huge [TS]

01:59:57   be on the floor it does have to be huge [TS]

02:00:00   and fairly heavy to be stable there like [TS]

02:00:02   there was nothing saying that you [TS]

02:00:03   weren't allowed to put the trash can on [TS]

02:00:05   the floor it was just unwise you just [TS]

02:00:08   can't you just kick it over all the time [TS]

02:00:09   right exactly like you you just [TS]

02:00:11   shouldn't put on the floor and the only [TS]

02:00:14   thing is like I deserves to be up on the [TS]

02:00:16   desk but that's an interesting thing [TS]

02:00:17   like socially speaking I had my g3 and [TS]

02:00:20   g4 on my desk because I thought they [TS]

02:00:22   deserved to be up there because they [TS]

02:00:23   were beautiful but the g5 i also had on [TS]

02:00:26   my desk but it was just too damn big [TS]

02:00:27   yeah please you just was on the desk it [TS]

02:00:29   was like it was gonna fall on me and [TS]

02:00:30   crush me to death it's all I had it on [TS]

02:00:32   my desk for a long time and I said you [TS]

02:00:34   know what this is inappropriate and it [TS]

02:00:36   went to the floor and you know my g5 [TS]

02:00:38   imac pro have been on the floor ever [TS]

02:00:40   since so i'm not opposed to putting [TS]

02:00:41   something that other people would put on [TS]

02:00:43   the floor that could be put on the floor [TS]

02:00:45   on the desk just because i think it's [TS]

02:00:46   really cool and looking at it makes me [TS]

02:00:48   happy but at a certain point it becomes [TS]

02:00:50   ridiculous so i'm i'm thinking this one [TS]

02:00:52   should be and will be small enough that [TS]

02:00:55   you could put it on the desk but i think [TS]

02:00:57   a goal should be also it works [TS]

02:00:59   underneath the desk so that it gives the [TS]

02:01:00   people the choice of where they want to [TS]

02:01:02   put it which means like you said it [TS]

02:01:04   can't be so small that it like it tips [TS]

02:01:06   over from a stiff Thunderbolt cable in [TS]

02:01:08   the back or whatever yeah exactly but [TS]

02:01:10   i'm just guessing just by the way things [TS]

02:01:12   are like the direction technology is [TS]

02:01:14   going you know if you actually do take [TS]

02:01:16   that cheese grater case and subtract all [TS]

02:01:18   the stuff you don't really need any more [TS]

02:01:19   i think it actually might be too small [TS]

02:01:21   to go on the floor i put lead weights in [TS]

02:01:23   the bottom like high-end audio equipment [TS]

02:01:24   there you go so Casey what what do you [TS]

02:01:29   want them to make anything or you you [TS]

02:01:32   want to make Nothing right so we'd stop [TS]

02:01:34   talking about though or do do we talk [TS]

02:01:36   about it more when they make nothing [TS]

02:01:37   Utah a you talk about it more when they [TS]

02:01:39   make nothing and be and I want them to [TS]

02:01:41   make something I said that at the [TS]

02:01:42   opening the show I want them to make [TS]

02:01:44   something I just want I want it to be [TS]

02:01:46   here because I I don't want to do 50 [TS]

02:01:49   some weeks of us pontificating about [TS]

02:01:51   what it will be could be more than that [TS]

02:01:53   oh they only said not this year yeah [TS]

02:01:57   that leaves the whole rest of time [TS]

02:01:59   future right on an infinite time scale [TS]

02:02:03   kids so there is a new mac pro there we [TS]

02:02:05   go no so you know overall if I could [TS]

02:02:09   summarize how I feel about this one more [TS]

02:02:12   time [TS]

02:02:13   to kind of close out my thinking on it [TS]

02:02:15   so far looks of course but I'm sure we [TS]

02:02:17   will follow up next week with all the [TS]

02:02:18   stuff we forgot about but I'm incredibly [TS]

02:02:21   happy to see this because it really does [TS]

02:02:24   show for the first time in a long time [TS]

02:02:27   that Apple is really taking pros needs [TS]

02:02:31   very seriously and they might have done [TS]

02:02:34   that for a lot of time and you know in [TS]

02:02:36   the middle here but we weren't seeing a [TS]

02:02:38   lot of signs of that from the outside it [TS]

02:02:40   was always questionable from the outside [TS]

02:02:43   whether they really care about [TS]

02:02:46   addressing pro needs or whether they [TS]

02:02:48   whether proteins were kind of like this [