The Accidental Tech Podcast

00:00:00 ◼   ► so let's start with some follow-up why [TS]

00:00:02 ◼   ► did chris lattner decide to leave Apple [TS]

00:00:04 ◼   ► last week we talked about this and we [TS]

00:00:07 ◼   ► tried to list all the reasons we could [TS]

00:00:09 ◼   ► think of why he might be leaving and I [TS]

00:00:11 ◼   ► think we covered most of the major [TS]

00:00:14 ◼   ► threads of speculation and didn't really [TS]

00:00:15 ◼   ► get a listener feedback about anybody [TS]

00:00:17 ◼   ► did reply was mostly voting for one of [TS]

00:00:18 ◼   ► the things we talked about but here's [TS]

00:00:21 ◼   ► the thing i was topic unless there's [TS]

00:00:22 ◼   ► some kind of like secret doomsday thing [TS]

00:00:25 ◼   ► about Apple that only Chris knows it's [TS]

00:00:27 ◼   ► not actually that important that we [TS]

00:00:29 ◼   ► figure out like why he left apple or [TS]

00:00:31 ◼   ► what was in his heart of hearts like [TS]

00:00:32 ◼   ► aside from just being busy bodies are [TS]

00:00:34 ◼   ► just wanting to know like a gossip type [TS]

00:00:35 ◼   ► stuff and second pragmatically speaking [TS]

00:00:39 ◼   ► this is just not the type of thing that [TS]

00:00:41 ◼   ► people who leave Apple talk about or you [TS]

00:00:43 ◼   ► know if they do talk about it's like [TS]

00:00:45 ◼   ► years and years later after everyone no [TS]

00:00:46 ◼   ► one cares anymore or you know like it's [TS]

00:00:48 ◼   ► not a big deal [TS]

00:00:49 ◼   ► so even if there was some deep dark [TS]

00:00:51 ◼   ► reason it's not like we would know about [TS]

00:00:53 ◼   ► it until years from now and honestly the [TS]

00:00:55 ◼   ► straightforward boring explanation is [TS]

00:00:56 ◼   ► probably the right one anyway so you [TS]

00:00:59 ◼   ► know I don't know what do you think [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► Chris that sounds about right to me John [TS]

00:01:02 ◼   ► would you ever buy an electric car in [TS]

00:01:07 ◼   ► white if you weren't such a jerk [TS]

00:01:11 ◼   ► why are you so mean to be barca no no [TS]

00:01:13 ◼   ► I'm fine red cars there you get all [TS]

00:01:16 ◼   ► yellow thank you get them yellow that's [TS]

00:01:18 ◼   ► bold [TS]

00:01:19 ◼   ► my guess alright we obviously need to [TS]

00:01:22 ◼   ► talk about what's happening right now so [TS]

00:01:23 ◼   ► ATP is not interested in interview show [TS]

00:01:26 ◼   ► but in extraordinary circumstances weird [TS]

00:01:30 ◼   ► things can happen and so in today's [TS]

00:01:33 ◼   ► episode we have an extraordinary [TS]

00:01:34 ◼   ► circumstance former apple employee Chris [TS]

00:01:37 ◼   ► lander was like nice enough to join us [TS]

00:01:39 ◼   ► on the show and so this is going to be [TS]

00:01:42 ◼   ► three people interviewing one person [TS]

00:01:43 ◼   ► which is to say the least a bit peculiar [TS]

00:01:46 ◼   ► and it's something that we've never [TS]

00:01:47 ◼   ► really done before so this could be a [TS]

00:01:50 ◼   ► little bit of a rough ride but we're [TS]

00:01:52 ◼   ► gonna try to make our best of it and and [TS]

00:01:54 ◼   ► i'll just say right up front [TS]

00:01:56 ◼   ► thank you so much Chris for coming on [TS]

00:01:57 ◼   ► the show and we definitely appreciate it [TS]

00:01:59 ◼   ► to kind of kick all this off would you [TS]

00:02:01 ◼   ► mind giving us like a nickel tour of who [TS]

00:02:03 ◼   ► is crystalline okay well I can try [TS]

00:02:07 ◼   ► I'm a programmer and [TS]

00:02:10 ◼   ► of coding i have for a long time I am [TS]

00:02:13 ◼   ► most widely known for starting lbm and [TS]

00:02:16 ◼   ► getting it off the ground and handing it [TS]

00:02:18 ◼   ► off to other smarter people i started [TS]

00:02:20 ◼   ► playing which is the C C++ objective c [TS]

00:02:23 ◼   ► compiler and likewise got to the point [TS]

00:02:25 ◼   ► where it was thriving and then let other [TS]

00:02:28 ◼   ► smarter people run it and then started [TS]

00:02:31 ◼   ► Swift and got Swift going and it [TS]

00:02:33 ◼   ► recently got past three dough and it has [TS]

00:02:36 ◼   ► an amazing community and has a great [TS]

00:02:38 ◼   ► team of people running it and now I'm [TS]

00:02:40 ◼   ► ready to jump to the next thing and so I [TS]

00:02:43 ◼   ► guess the short version of what i'd like [TS]

00:02:45 ◼   ► to do is tackle really hard problems and [TS]

00:02:48 ◼   ► do things that most people think you're [TS]

00:02:50 ◼   ► impossible [TS]

00:02:51 ◼   ► so we're gonna go back in time a little [TS]

00:02:53 ◼   ► bit and i hope that you could tell us [TS]

00:02:57 ◼   ► how you ended up coming to apple like if [TS]

00:02:59 ◼   ► you can remember back that far like you [TS]

00:03:01 ◼   ► know you [TS]

00:03:02 ◼   ► lvm you started before you or an apple [TS]

00:03:04 ◼   ► right so how did you end up an apple [TS]

00:03:06 ◼   ► yeah isn't it a great question so i [TS]

00:03:07 ◼   ► started working out via aim at the [TS]

00:03:09 ◼   ► University of Illinois it was a research [TS]

00:03:12 ◼   ► project and the it really was kind of [TS]

00:03:17 ◼   ► hope for and designed to be fully [TS]

00:03:19 ◼   ► general and production quality and all [TS]

00:03:21 ◼   ► those great things that you want as a [TS]

00:03:24 ◼   ► graduate student for people to use your [TS]

00:03:25 ◼   ► code but it also wasn't it was had a lot [TS]

00:03:30 ◼   ► of the great architectural ideas maybe [TS]

00:03:32 ◼   ► but it wasn't fully baked it wasn't [TS]

00:03:34 ◼   ► wouldn't solve all the world's problems [TS]

00:03:37 ◼   ► and by the time I got to graduate [TS]

00:03:41 ◼   ► the question was what do I do next and [TS]

00:03:43 ◼   ► of course my dream was to continue [TS]

00:03:44 ◼   ► pushing forward and build it out to be [TS]

00:03:47 ◼   ► something real and to do that i would [TS]

00:03:49 ◼   ► have to go to a place that would allow [TS]

00:03:50 ◼   ► me to work on it and I was really [TS]

00:03:52 ◼   ► fortunate to build relationships with [TS]

00:03:54 ◼   ► folks at Apple they took a chance on me [TS]

00:03:56 ◼   ► and I jumped apple and started building [TS]

00:03:59 ◼   ► out of them is my job was it was totally [TS]

00:04:02 ◼   ► a dream of mine so that's how you have [TS]

00:04:04 ◼   ► to graduate [TS]

00:04:05 ◼   ► did you get your degree and then go to [TS]

00:04:06 ◼   ► apple yeah yeah that was nice [TS]

00:04:09 ◼   ► otherwise how do you ever get a job yeah [TS]

00:04:11 ◼   ► you can get a job that degree we all [TS]

00:04:12 ◼   ► know that no yeah yeah so [TS]

00:04:15 ◼   ► how would you explain lvm to somebody [TS]

00:04:17 ◼   ► who doesn't know stuff about compilers [TS]

00:04:19 ◼   ► because like we all just rattle off the [TS]

00:04:21 ◼   ► LEM compiler building tool kit or [TS]

00:04:23 ◼   ► whatever like but how would you explain [TS]

00:04:25 ◼   ► that to someone bizarre other listeners [TS]

00:04:27 ◼   ► of programmers who isn't into may be [TS]

00:04:29 ◼   ► familiar with how compiler works [TS]

00:04:30 ◼   ► sure so I mean first we start with what [TS]

00:04:32 ◼   ► does the compiler a compiler is the [TS]

00:04:35 ◼   ► thing that takes the code the programmer [TS]

00:04:37 ◼   ► writes and turns it into something [TS]

00:04:39 ◼   ► machine can understand and so there's [TS]

00:04:41 ◼   ► lots of different kinds of computers [TS]

00:04:43 ◼   ► with lots of different kinds of [TS]

00:04:44 ◼   ► processors most programmers don't have [TS]

00:04:47 ◼   ► to think about that or know about that [TS]

00:04:49 ◼   ► and they wanted program and think in a [TS]

00:04:51 ◼   ► much higher level than what the the [TS]

00:04:53 ◼   ► actual processor can do and so the [TS]

00:04:55 ◼   ► compiler job is to transform what what [TS]

00:04:58 ◼   ► the human wrote and to something the [TS]

00:05:00 ◼   ► machine can understand then lvm is a [TS]

00:05:04 ◼   ► modular system for building different [TS]

00:05:06 ◼   ► kinds of compilers because there's lots [TS]

00:05:08 ◼   ► of different reasons why people would [TS]

00:05:10 ◼   ► want to use compiler technology and I [TS]

00:05:12 ◼   ► think album was most successful over the [TS]

00:05:14 ◼   ► years because was built as reusable [TS]

00:05:16 ◼   ► components kind of like a framework and [TS]

00:05:20 ◼   ► then the framework can be used to solve [TS]

00:05:22 ◼   ► lots of different problems and one of [TS]

00:05:24 ◼   ► the fun things about lvm is that it was [TS]

00:05:26 ◼   ► eventually over the years used to solve [TS]

00:05:28 ◼   ► problems that we had never even imagined [TS]

00:05:29 ◼   ► which is really exciting [TS]

00:05:31 ◼   ► so one example of that the type of [TS]

00:05:33 ◼   ► problem is a remember from passwd sees [TS]

00:05:36 ◼   ► the idea that the xcode ID the GUI that [TS]

00:05:40 ◼   ► you programs used to to make their [TS]

00:05:41 ◼   ► applications that very often in that [TS]

00:05:44 ◼   ► gooey you need to do things that have an [TS]

00:05:46 ◼   ► understanding of the code but when the [TS]

00:05:48 ◼   ► compiler is big monolithic thing the [TS]

00:05:50 ◼   ► best you can kind of do is compile [TS]

00:05:52 ◼   ► everything in the background and spit [TS]

00:05:53 ◼   ► out some stuff but when it's a modular [TS]

00:05:55 ◼   ► toolkit you can take those pieces and [TS]

00:05:58 ◼   ► just use the part that understands like [TS]

00:06:00 ◼   ► the syntax tree or whatever and [TS]

00:06:01 ◼   ► integrate them was that the first use of [TS]

00:06:04 ◼   ► lvm is something other than like you [TS]

00:06:08 ◼   ► know a complete like a straight-up [TS]

00:06:09 ◼   ► compiler that you just point your code [TS]

00:06:11 ◼   ► and produces output like you know in [TS]

00:06:13 ◼   ► other words integrating it into [TS]

00:06:14 ◼   ► applications or was there some use [TS]

00:06:15 ◼   ► before that [TS]

00:06:17 ◼   ► well i think the the first use and [TS]

00:06:19 ◼   ► production was in the opengl stack which [TS]

00:06:22 ◼   ► end of shipping and a late software [TS]

00:06:24 ◼   ► update for tiger [TS]

00:06:25 ◼   ► and as well as in leopard which is 10 [TS]

00:06:28 ◼   ► dot 4 in 10 5 [TS]

00:06:30 ◼   ► there was using a completely invisible [TS]

00:06:33 ◼   ► way to translate to basically repack [TS]

00:06:36 ◼   ► data and uploaded to the GPU and so when [TS]

00:06:39 ◼   ► you need to [TS]

00:06:40 ◼   ► when you're making opengl calls to say [TS]

00:06:42 ◼   ► GL vertex 3 f or whatever the the [TS]

00:06:45 ◼   ► low-level GL call is those verses need [TS]

00:06:49 ◼   ► to be transformed into a very specific [TS]

00:06:51 ◼   ► data format the GPU can understand and [TS]

00:06:53 ◼   ► you have a whole bunch of different [TS]

00:06:54 ◼   ► kinds of calls that can be used to [TS]

00:06:56 ◼   ► produce for tech surge in other geometry [TS]

00:06:58 ◼   ► data but you also have a matrix of [TS]

00:07:00 ◼   ► different kinds of GPUs you need to [TS]

00:07:02 ◼   ► support and they all have different [TS]

00:07:03 ◼   ► formats and different capabilities and [TS]

00:07:05 ◼   ► requirements and so Alabama's used to [TS]

00:07:07 ◼   ► generate very small chunks of code to do [TS]

00:07:09 ◼   ► that and it was part of the 64-bit bring [TS]

00:07:12 ◼   ► up in the leopard timeframe and so that [TS]

00:07:14 ◼   ► was probably the first completely [TS]

00:07:16 ◼   ► invisible use of it the that used and [TS]

00:07:19 ◼   ► proved a lot of the kind of code [TS]

00:07:21 ◼   ► generation technologies so forgive me [TS]

00:07:24 ◼   ► one more lvm related things are going to [TS]

00:07:26 ◼   ► go from what is the compiler all I down [TS]

00:07:27 ◼   ► to the nitty-gritty stuff here my vague [TS]

00:07:30 ◼   ► recollection of what you just described [TS]

00:07:31 ◼   ► the whole video driver thing was that [TS]

00:07:33 ◼   ► there were files on disk in the shipping [TS]

00:07:36 ◼   ► us that were basically lvm bytecode like [TS]

00:07:39 ◼   ► these little bc files and they would get [TS]

00:07:42 ◼   ► slurped up and converted to machine code [TS]

00:07:45 ◼   ► appropriate for the GPU and spaz is that [TS]

00:07:48 ◼   ► am i right about that yeah you're [TS]

00:07:49 ◼   ► absolutely right and so it basically the [TS]

00:07:51 ◼   ► we look at is the the code files the lvm [TS]

00:07:55 ◼   ► the ship with the OS were little [TS]

00:07:57 ◼   ► snippets of code that then at runtime or [TS]

00:08:00 ◼   ► recombined and optimized across and so [TS]

00:08:03 ◼   ► that was kind of the library of [TS]

00:08:04 ◼   ► primitives that the opengl runtime used [TS]

00:08:07 ◼   ► to assemble what it was trying to do [TS]

00:08:09 ◼   ► alright so my question about this and [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► maybe you kind of alluded to with either [TS]

00:08:12 ◼   ► a slip of the tongue or reviewing [TS]

00:08:14 ◼   ► understanding is what is the difference [TS]

00:08:16 ◼   ► between llvm bytecode and what Apple [TS]

00:08:18 ◼   ► currently brands as bit code [TS]

00:08:21 ◼   ► oh well DRS first or quote is a [TS]

00:08:23 ◼   ► historical it's a technical and [TS]

00:08:26 ◼   ► historical cuz I'm confused by the [TS]

00:08:28 ◼   ► branding and I'm also confused by the [TS]

00:08:29 ◼   ► tech so lvm prior to lv m2 dot oh and [TS]

00:08:35 ◼   ► these version numbers of the open-source [TS]

00:08:36 ◼   ► version numbers not related to the apple [TS]

00:08:38 ◼   ► version [TS]

00:08:38 ◼   ► numbers and their confusingly different [TS]

00:08:40 ◼   ► for not very interesting reasons but [TS]

00:08:43 ◼   ► before to do used a really horrible [TS]

00:08:46 ◼   ► encoding in binary the was branded [TS]

00:08:50 ◼   ► bytecode because that's what java use [TS]

00:08:52 ◼   ► had a whole bunch of problems and there [TS]

00:08:54 ◼   ► was an extensible it was fragile with [TS]

00:08:57 ◼   ► the ilbm was changing and didn't have [TS]

00:09:00 ◼   ► compatibility and so in the lvm to do [TS]

00:09:04 ◼   ► timeframe which josh is probably don't [TS]

00:09:08 ◼   ► know ten ten years ago or more it's been [TS]

00:09:10 ◼   ► a long time ago now I redesign the whole [TS]

00:09:15 ◼   ► thing and it now uses this quote-unquote [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► bit code format and use bit code as a [TS]

00:09:20 ◼   ► term for two reasons one of which was it [TS]

00:09:22 ◼   ► was different than bytecode and so the [TS]

00:09:24 ◼   ► two could be side-by-side in the [TS]

00:09:25 ◼   ► directory tree for a while and the [TS]

00:09:27 ◼   ► second reason is that the encoding is a [TS]

00:09:29 ◼   ► bitstream format instead of a byte [TS]

00:09:30 ◼   ► stream but that that's the origin of the [TS]

00:09:34 ◼   ► term bit code you can find documentation [TS]

00:09:36 ◼   ► in this file format is actually a very [TS]

00:09:38 ◼   ► general encoding format that you can use [TS]

00:09:41 ◼   ► for xmltype purposes it's a [TS]

00:09:43 ◼   ► self-describing file format and multiple [TS]

00:09:46 ◼   ► different things can be encoded in a bit [TS]

00:09:48 ◼   ► code that was definitely some confusion [TS]

00:09:50 ◼   ► about that because when Apple presented [TS]

00:09:51 ◼   ► it when they presented it as like the [TS]

00:09:53 ◼   ► required was like the watch apps have to [TS]

00:09:54 ◼   ► be a bit code Marco you would know this [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► watch's required iOS is still optional [TS]

00:09:59 ◼   ► and TV is required and they would have [TS]

00:10:02 ◼   ► you send you put your stuff in bit code [TS]

00:10:04 ◼   ► and there's a lot of speculation early [TS]

00:10:06 ◼   ► on about what that meant like in terms [TS]

00:10:09 ◼   ► of does that mean that what you're [TS]

00:10:12 ◼   ► uploading is not a finished binary and [TS]

00:10:14 ◼   ► therefore it's like this machine [TS]

00:10:15 ◼   ► agnostic and could be targeted any CPU [TS]

00:10:17 ◼   ► and the more prosaic version like it [TS]

00:10:21 ◼   ► doesn't mean its CPU agnostic all it [TS]

00:10:23 ◼   ► means is that Apple has slightly more [TS]

00:10:25 ◼   ► freedom to like change instructions on [TS]

00:10:28 ◼   ► the sea views they do target [TS]

00:10:30 ◼   ► how would you characterize the what what [TS]

00:10:32 ◼   ► what advantages are there of compiling [TS]

00:10:36 ◼   ► something to bit code and then uploading [TS]

00:10:38 ◼   ► it somewhere vs sending someone a binary [TS]

00:10:40 ◼   ► sure there's a good there's a couple of [TS]

00:10:41 ◼   ► different advantages for that one of [TS]

00:10:43 ◼   ► which is that the compiler keeps getting [TS]

00:10:46 ◼   ► better and so the compiler learns a new [TS]

00:10:47 ◼   ► optimization at [TS]

00:10:49 ◼   ► can be applied to existing applications [TS]

00:10:51 ◼   ► without application developers and [TS]

00:10:52 ◼   ► reupload their their app that's one [TS]

00:10:55 ◼   ► small thing other things is our the [TS]

00:10:58 ◼   ► apple just periodically add new [TS]

00:10:59 ◼   ► instructions to its at cps one example [TS]

00:11:02 ◼   ► this historically was the the [TS]

00:11:06 ◼   ► hilariously named swift check that [TS]

00:11:08 ◼   ► launched which was the first designed [TS]

00:11:11 ◼   ► in-house 32-bit ARM chip this was the [TS]

00:11:15 ◼   ► iphone 5 if I recall that's right [TS]

00:11:17 ◼   ► so in this chip they added an integer [TS]

00:11:20 ◼   ► divided instruction and all the chips [TS]

00:11:22 ◼   ► before that didn't have the ability to [TS]

00:11:24 ◼   ► do an integer divided in hardware you [TS]

00:11:26 ◼   ► had to actually open code it and there's [TS]

00:11:28 ◼   ► a library function to do that and so [TS]

00:11:30 ◼   ► that and the other instructions they [TS]

00:11:32 ◼   ► added were a pretty big deal and use [TS]

00:11:35 ◼   ► pervasively and the only way to tackle [TS]

00:11:37 ◼   ► then in and handle that and use it [TS]

00:11:39 ◼   ► effectively was to introduce an entire [TS]

00:11:41 ◼   ► new slice and so if you're an app [TS]

00:11:43 ◼   ► developer back then you had the v7 slice [TS]

00:11:45 ◼   ► which was all the older ships and then [TS]

00:11:48 ◼   ► you have to be 7s slice as for swift [TS]

00:11:50 ◼   ► which was the slice that included the [TS]

00:11:55 ◼   ► injured but now this is a pain for app [TS]

00:11:57 ◼   ► developers is paying for Apple everybody [TS]

00:12:00 ◼   ► has it has to convince all the [TS]

00:12:01 ◼   ► developers to take it seriously and if [TS]

00:12:03 ◼   ► it doesn't if app developers don't [TS]

00:12:04 ◼   ► support it then the new hardware doesn't [TS]

00:12:05 ◼   ► benefit from it and so--but code allows [TS]

00:12:08 ◼   ► that kind of thing to go completely away [TS]

00:12:10 ◼   ► with the code [TS]

00:12:11 ◼   ► apple just recompile the applications in [TS]

00:12:13 ◼   ► the store and say haha this this device [TS]

00:12:16 ◼   ► has an integer divided instruction and [TS]

00:12:18 ◼   ► it can it works perfectly with the [TS]

00:12:20 ◼   ► thinning kind of architecture they have [TS]

00:12:21 ◼   ► for deploying resources to specific [TS]

00:12:24 ◼   ► device types and all kind of looks [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► together bit code is not a magic [TS]

00:12:30 ◼   ► solution though it doesn't you can take [TS]

00:12:32 ◼   ► a 32-bit app for example and run on a [TS]

00:12:35 ◼   ► 64-bit device that that kind of [TS]

00:12:37 ◼   ► portability isn't something that can [TS]

00:12:38 ◼   ► give you [TS]

00:12:39 ◼   ► notably because that is something that's [TS]

00:12:41 ◼   ► visible and see and so as you're writing [TS]

00:12:44 ◼   ► C code you can write if death you know [TS]

00:12:47 ◼   ► pointers equals 32 and that's something [TS]

00:12:49 ◼   ► that big coke and abstract / and so it's [TS]

00:12:53 ◼   ► useful for very specific low-level kinds [TS]

00:12:55 ◼   ► of enhancements [TS]

00:12:57 ◼   ► but isn't a panacea that makes [TS]

00:12:59 ◼   ► everything magically portable at the [TS]

00:13:02 ◼   ► same thing i would assume for like [TS]

00:13:03 ◼   ► architecture changes especially there [TS]

00:13:04 ◼   ► was an Indian difference because Indian [TS]

00:13:05 ◼   ► this is visible from the sea world so if [TS]

00:13:07 ◼   ► you can't you can't target different [TS]

00:13:08 ◼   ► ending this [TS]

00:13:09 ◼   ► yep yeah so this is not something [TS]

00:13:11 ◼   ► magically Saul portability problems but [TS]

00:13:13 ◼   ► is it is very useful for specific [TS]

00:13:15 ◼   ► problems that Apple's face in the past [TS]

00:13:16 ◼   ► and then going back to the this life [TS]

00:13:19 ◼   ► thing that's like terminology like I'm [TS]

00:13:20 ◼   ► tamaco format where you get to put [TS]

00:13:22 ◼   ► different architectures worth of [TS]

00:13:23 ◼   ► executable or is that a different [TS]

00:13:25 ◼   ► yeah it is i think this technology that [TS]

00:13:26 ◼   ► goes all the way back to next when next [TS]

00:13:29 ◼   ► supported really heterogeneous different [TS]

00:13:31 ◼   ► architectures like pa-risc and and spark [TS]

00:13:33 ◼   ► and RBC and Intel all back and in the [TS]

00:13:37 ◼   ► next days and it allows you to compile [TS]

00:13:40 ◼   ► your application with multiple slices [TS]

00:13:42 ◼   ► they call them and then there's a tool [TS]

00:13:44 ◼   ► called lipo which sticks them together [TS]

00:13:46 ◼   ► and at runtime the OS pics the slice the [TS]

00:13:51 ◼   ► best matches your cpu and practice and [TS]

00:13:53 ◼   ► so an app developer can support many [TS]

00:13:55 ◼   ► different kinds of architectures and [TS]

00:13:57 ◼   ► then the OS just does the right thing [TS]

00:13:59 ◼   ► and so in today's world it's very common [TS]

00:14:01 ◼   ► to build an iOS app for example the for [TS]

00:14:05 ◼   ► both arms 64 and arm 32 and the way that [TS]

00:14:07 ◼   ► works in the native in the simplest [TS]

00:14:10 ◼   ► cases it's just too different binary is [TS]

00:14:13 ◼   ► that are stuck together and then the OS [TS]

00:14:15 ◼   ► X the right one to run all right i could [TS]

00:14:18 ◼   ► go on for this river but I want to [TS]

00:14:20 ◼   ► that's right all it's just uh is this [TS]

00:14:21 ◼   ► some pent-up relations about Bitcoin [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► biko but now I feel satisfied we can go [TS]

00:14:26 ◼   ► on to broader topics we sponsor tonight [TS]

00:14:30 ◼   ► by Squarespace squarespace.com use code [TS]

00:14:34 ◼   ► ATP to get ten percent off your first [TS]

00:14:36 ◼   ► purchase [TS]

00:14:36 ◼   ► it's the new year you might have a new [TS]

00:14:38 ◼   ► project you might have a new goal you [TS]

00:14:40 ◼   ► want to reach and that might involve [TS]

00:14:41 ◼   ► making a website make your next move [TS]

00:14:44 ◼   ► with a beautiful website from [TS]

00:14:46 ◼   ► Squarespace Squarespace sites are so [TS]

00:14:49 ◼   ► incredibly easy to make and they're [TS]

00:14:50 ◼   ► incredibly beautiful and the tools are [TS]

00:14:53 ◼   ► very powerful [TS]

00:14:54 ◼   ► this is a great combination that i [TS]

00:14:55 ◼   ► personally have never seen before in the [TS]

00:14:58 ◼   ► web building space until Squarespace the [TS]

00:15:00 ◼   ► amount of power you get with these tools [TS]

00:15:02 ◼   ► is just incredible you can make so many [TS]

00:15:04 ◼   ► different kinds of sites with so little [TS]

00:15:06 ◼   ► effort [TS]

00:15:07 ◼   ► nothing else comes close your site's [TS]

00:15:10 ◼   ► look professionally designed [TS]

00:15:11 ◼   ► regardless of your skill level with no [TS]

00:15:13 ◼   ► coding required although if you want to [TS]

00:15:15 ◼   ► jump in and help some of the code you [TS]

00:15:16 ◼   ► actually can but you don't have to and [TS]

00:15:18 ◼   ► it probably isn't a good use of your [TS]

00:15:19 ◼   ► time because Squarespace is such a great [TS]

00:15:22 ◼   ► platform right out-of-the-box whether [TS]

00:15:25 ◼   ► you're making website for you or for [TS]

00:15:26 ◼   ► somebody else if you make of somebody [TS]

00:15:28 ◼   ► else [TS]

00:15:29 ◼   ► Squarespace is the place you want to do [TS]

00:15:30 ◼   ► that because you shouldn't have to use [TS]

00:15:33 ◼   ► Squarespace and then you're done [TS]

00:15:35 ◼   ► they're not coming to you anymore [TS]

00:15:35 ◼   ► squares page will support if they need [TS]

00:15:37 ◼   ► help and able to figure things out on [TS]

00:15:39 ◼   ► their own because it's just so much [TS]

00:15:40 ◼   ► easier to use than whatever CMS you were [TS]

00:15:42 ◼   ► going to install on their server so [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► check out today go to squarespace.com [TS]

00:15:45 ◼   ► use code ATP to ten percent off your [TS]

00:15:48 ◼   ► first purchase when you decide to sign [TS]

00:15:50 ◼   ► up whether you're making a site for you [TS]

00:15:52 ◼   ► or somebody else make your next move [TS]

00:15:54 ◼   ► with squarespace ah so Chris how's your [TS]

00:16:00 ◼   ► transition from coding to being a [TS]

00:16:03 ◼   ► manager because from an outsider's point [TS]

00:16:04 ◼   ► of view it looked like you know you [TS]

00:16:06 ◼   ► arrived at Apple you were working [TS]

00:16:07 ◼   ► heavily on llvm like you said earlier [TS]

00:16:09 ◼   ► but over time I mean even just looking [TS]

00:16:11 ◼   ► at the resume on your website it seems [TS]

00:16:13 ◼   ► pretty clear that you are doing a lot [TS]

00:16:15 ◼   ► more managing lately then perhaps coding [TS]

00:16:18 ◼   ► or maybe maybe just worked around the [TS]

00:16:20 ◼   ► clock that would surprise me either but [TS]

00:16:21 ◼   ► it how how would you how did you feel [TS]

00:16:24 ◼   ► about your transition from from being [TS]

00:16:26 ◼   ► just a code monkey to being a manager [TS]

00:16:28 ◼   ► and I asked in part because at my face [TS]

00:16:31 ◼   ► my career I am still a code monkey but i [TS]

00:16:32 ◼   ► think it's not too far away that I might [TS]

00:16:34 ◼   ► become a manager and so I'm curious to [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► hear you know from from one code monkey [TS]

00:16:39 ◼   ► to another how did that transition go [TS]

00:16:41 ◼   ► and what did you learn from it [TS]

00:16:43 ◼   ► yeah that's that's kind of interesting [TS]

00:16:44 ◼   ► so I don't think it is a hard transition [TS]

00:16:47 ◼   ► I'm still writing code i still love [TS]

00:16:49 ◼   ► writing code that's something that I [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► think is a key part of my identity and [TS]

00:16:54 ◼   ► but on the other hand is it is very [TS]

00:16:58 ◼   ► strange so I started managing people at [TS]

00:17:00 ◼   ► Apple really pretty early on maybe [TS]

00:17:03 ◼   ► you're so after i joined i started [TS]

00:17:06 ◼   ► managing two or three people because [TS]

00:17:09 ◼   ► kind of the best person to to manage the [TS]

00:17:12 ◼   ► nascent lvm effort at the time and [TS]

00:17:16 ◼   ► initially it was mostly just being a [TS]

00:17:19 ◼   ► tech lead and [TS]

00:17:20 ◼   ► so if you're if you've ever driven a [TS]

00:17:22 ◼   ► project where you have co-workers that [TS]

00:17:25 ◼   ► don't report to you that your kind of [TS]

00:17:27 ◼   ► guiding them and helping make technical [TS]

00:17:29 ◼   ► decisions that's that's where started [TS]

00:17:31 ◼   ► over over time I my team grew and [TS]

00:17:35 ◼   ► eventually ended up picking up and [TS]

00:17:37 ◼   ► running kind of a second level manager [TS]

00:17:39 ◼   ► role where you're managing other [TS]

00:17:41 ◼   ► managers and each step along the way it [TS]

00:17:43 ◼   ► introduces new challenges and along the [TS]

00:17:46 ◼   ► way I told myself that managing [TS]

00:17:49 ◼   ► something that I had to do because that [TS]

00:17:52 ◼   ► was the best qualified to do it and I [TS]

00:17:54 ◼   ► didn't want anybody else to and that [TS]

00:17:57 ◼   ► coding was my real joy and passion and I [TS]

00:17:59 ◼   ► think the coding really is my joy and [TS]

00:18:01 ◼   ► passion but along the way [TS]

00:18:03 ◼   ► looking back I realize that I am [TS]

00:18:04 ◼   ► actually pretty good at managing and I [TS]

00:18:07 ◼   ► really do like building teams i like [TS]

00:18:10 ◼   ► working with people and I've never [TS]

00:18:11 ◼   ► considered myself to be a people person [TS]

00:18:13 ◼   ► just how it's just very very odd for me [TS]

00:18:16 ◼   ► to even think about that but actually do [TS]

00:18:19 ◼   ► understand how people work and can you [TS]

00:18:22 ◼   ► know really care about getting the most [TS]

00:18:24 ◼   ► out of people and working with them to [TS]

00:18:26 ◼   ► make them successful and so it's been [TS]

00:18:29 ◼   ► kind of a transition over time but I've [TS]

00:18:32 ◼   ► always hung onto coding and even though [TS]

00:18:34 ◼   ► i have a full time management job I [TS]

00:18:36 ◼   ► could like crazy and nights and weekends [TS]

00:18:38 ◼   ► and I'm not the kind of guy that likes [TS]

00:18:40 ◼   ► around idle and eaten and so I've always [TS]

00:18:43 ◼   ► just been busy so I mean you can get as [TS]

00:18:46 ◼   ► much of this history as you want to [TS]

00:18:47 ◼   ► Chris but how did you get Swift to [TS]

00:18:50 ◼   ► happen inside Apple because from the [TS]

00:18:53 ◼   ► outside its mysterious to us how big [TS]

00:18:57 ◼   ► important projects come to be like you [TS]

00:19:00 ◼   ► know whatever you name the headlining [TS]

00:19:02 ◼   ► things that are common Apple we hear [TS]

00:19:04 ◼   ► that Apple does a lot of things that [TS]

00:19:05 ◼   ► don't see the light of day [TS]

00:19:07 ◼   ► how did you get probably one of the [TS]

00:19:09 ◼   ► biggest things ever to come out of Apple [TS]

00:19:11 ◼   ► an entirely new language created [TS]

00:19:13 ◼   ► in-house had to get that to happen and [TS]

00:19:14 ◼   ► not just be some little thing that was [TS]

00:19:16 ◼   ► off to the side that fizzled often [TS]

00:19:18 ◼   ► disappear [TS]

00:19:18 ◼   ► sure well so i can tell you about Swift [TS]

00:19:21 ◼   ► but i don't think you should project [TS]

00:19:23 ◼   ► this onto every other project and apple [TS]

00:19:24 ◼   ► because i'm sure there are different so [TS]

00:19:26 ◼   ► you just talk about my experiences so [TS]

00:19:29 ◼   ► started in 2010 [TS]

00:19:31 ◼   ► you know it's kind of the timing is [TS]

00:19:35 ◼   ► suspicious because right after a blogger [TS]

00:19:37 ◼   ► wrote something about how Apple need a [TS]

00:19:40 ◼   ► new programming language haha i'm not a [TS]

00:19:43 ◼   ► blogger ok [TS]

00:19:44 ◼   ► arstechnica wasn't a thing about blog [TS]

00:19:48 ◼   ► that was a prestigious website still is [TS]

00:19:50 ◼   ► ok ok hi I stand corrected [TS]

00:19:54 ◼   ► so I don't remember fight after i read [TS]

00:19:58 ◼   ► it exactly then that's that was a causal [TS]

00:20:00 ◼   ► link to starting working on swift or if [TS]

00:20:02 ◼   ► it was just because I just finish up [TS]

00:20:05 ◼   ► cleaning c++ support and we launched [TS]

00:20:07 ◼   ► client c++ and of course if you write [TS]

00:20:10 ◼   ► C++ good you know how ugly and horrible [TS]

00:20:12 ◼   ► it is but if you implement c++ it's a [TS]

00:20:15 ◼   ► whole nother level of the of challenges [TS]

00:20:17 ◼   ► and so getting that first release out [TS]

00:20:20 ◼   ► was it was a major accomplishment for [TS]

00:20:22 ◼   ► for the entire team and it was a major [TS]

00:20:23 ◼   ► major effort for a ton of people [TS]

00:20:26 ◼   ► involved and as is typical you get [TS]

00:20:29 ◼   ► something over the finish line and of [TS]

00:20:31 ◼   ► course it wasn't fully finished long [TS]

00:20:32 ◼   ► ways to go but a lot of the [TS]

00:20:33 ◼   ► intellectually interesting to me at [TS]

00:20:36 ◼   ► least pieces were we're done [TS]

00:20:38 ◼   ► that's why I started thinking about okay [TS]

00:20:40 ◼   ► what comes next [TS]

00:20:41 ◼   ► right and then implementing other [TS]

00:20:43 ◼   ► people's stuff like for example the see [TS]

00:20:46 ◼   ► the c++ the objective-c standards and [TS]

00:20:49 ◼   ► languages but there were there were you [TS]

00:20:53 ◼   ► know things that we weren't happy with [TS]

00:20:54 ◼   ► and things I wasn't happy with and so [TS]

00:20:56 ◼   ► what started out as just a let's let's [TS]

00:20:59 ◼   ► see what could be done right let's see [TS]

00:21:01 ◼   ► what a much simpler language that [TS]

00:21:03 ◼   ► doesn't need a preprocessor doesn't hate [TS]

00:21:05 ◼   ► try graphs doesn't need all the weird [TS]

00:21:08 ◼   ► things that have accumulated into c and [TS]

00:21:10 ◼   ► c++ over the years but let's see what we [TS]

00:21:13 ◼   ► can do and just try to build something [TS]

00:21:15 ◼   ► nicer [TS]

00:21:16 ◼   ► initially it was really just a me me [TS]

00:21:20 ◼   ► messing around and nobody knew about it [TS]

00:21:23 ◼   ► because it wasn't anything to know about [TS]

00:21:25 ◼   ► but eventually got a little bit more [TS]

00:21:28 ◼   ► serious and said hey well after playing [TS]

00:21:30 ◼   ► around a little bit i think that this [TS]

00:21:32 ◼   ► actually could make sense and so I [TS]

00:21:34 ◼   ► started talking to my management [TS]

00:21:36 ◼   ► I'm start talking again engineers are [TS]

00:21:39 ◼   ► working on playing and they seemed [TS]

00:21:41 ◼   ► excited about it we got a couple people [TS]

00:21:43 ◼   ► working on it part time and I can ask my [TS]

00:21:46 ◼   ► manager that it was interesting enough [TS]

00:21:47 ◼   ► that we could have a couple of people [TS]

00:21:50 ◼   ► work on it now this wasn't a major [TS]

00:21:53 ◼   ► commitment this was a ok well let's see [TS]

00:21:56 ◼   ► see what there is here and that started [TS]

00:21:59 ◼   ► a an internal demo schedule and other [TS]

00:22:02 ◼   ► things we set milestones in place and [TS]

00:22:04 ◼   ► tried to to to justify the investment [TS]

00:22:06 ◼   ► that was being put into it eventually [TS]

00:22:09 ◼   ► got to the point where there was an in [TS]

00:22:12 ◼   ► it was part of a long that it was posing [TS]

00:22:14 ◼   ► strategic questions so the strategic [TS]

00:22:17 ◼   ► questions were the form [TS]

00:22:18 ◼   ► ok what we have objective-c objective-c [TS]

00:22:21 ◼   ► is a great language it is probably [TS]

00:22:24 ◼   ► directly responsible for the iphone [TS]

00:22:27 ◼   ► being successful because it's really [TS]

00:22:31 ◼   ► high performance allows you to get your [TS]

00:22:33 ◼   ► job done it supports high-level [TS]

00:22:35 ◼   ► frameworks and beautiful way there's a [TS]

00:22:37 ◼   ► ton of stuff to love about objective-c [TS]

00:22:39 ◼   ► and while there are few things that are [TS]

00:22:41 ◼   ► ugly about it some at sides and [TS]

00:22:42 ◼   ► semicolons and other stuff like that you [TS]

00:22:44 ◼   ► know we can make objectively better and [TS]

00:22:46 ◼   ► so the question was always why not just [TS]

00:22:49 ◼   ► make objectively better right why don't [TS]

00:22:51 ◼   ► we just keep evolving objective-c and [TS]

00:22:54 ◼   ► why do we want to face potential [TS]

00:22:55 ◼   ► disruption in terms of moving the entire [TS]

00:22:57 ◼   ► development community to something new [TS]

00:23:00 ◼   ► and we kick that around for a long time [TS]

00:23:02 ◼   ► we talked about both sides and we came [TS]

00:23:05 ◼   ► to realize that yes we can and should [TS]

00:23:06 ◼   ► make objective-c better and we continue [TS]

00:23:09 ◼   ► to invest in objective-c we did things [TS]

00:23:11 ◼   ► like our for example which is a major [TS]

00:23:13 ◼   ► effort but we got dots [TS]

00:23:17 ◼   ► well so dot syntax / dated this ah yeah [TS]

00:23:20 ◼   ► dot dot syntax so the objective c 2 [TS]

00:23:23 ◼   ► features and the block syntax were all [TS]

00:23:25 ◼   ► kind of prior to this i worked on blocks [TS]

00:23:28 ◼   ► but [TS]

00:23:28 ◼   ► but it wasn't in this time for him and [TS]

00:23:32 ◼   ► so we were talking about okay well can [TS]

00:23:34 ◼   ► we just make objectively better and can [TS]

00:23:35 ◼   ► feature creep into the language that we [TS]

00:23:37 ◼   ► want for the fullness of time because we [TS]

00:23:39 ◼   ► can that be much less disruptive to the [TS]

00:23:41 ◼   ► community and we decided that yeah we [TS]

00:23:43 ◼   ► can we can move objective-c a lot closer [TS]

00:23:45 ◼   ► to what we want so we can get automatic [TS]

00:23:47 ◼   ► memory management with art for example [TS]

00:23:49 ◼   ► but we can't ever take away the problems [TS]

00:23:52 ◼   ► that lead to objective-c being unsafe [TS]

00:23:55 ◼   ► and the fundamental problem was [TS]

00:23:57 ◼   ► objectives he was built on top of C and [TS]

00:24:00 ◼   ► C inherently has pointers it has [TS]

00:24:02 ◼   ► initialize variables that has array of [TS]

00:24:05 ◼   ► overflow that has all these problems [TS]

00:24:06 ◼   ► that even if you have full control of [TS]

00:24:09 ◼   ► your compiler and tools back you just [TS]

00:24:11 ◼   ► can't fix right to fix to fix dangling [TS]

00:24:14 ◼   ► pointers you'd have to fix lifetime [TS]

00:24:15 ◼   ► issues and she doesn't have a framework [TS]

00:24:17 ◼   ► to to reason about that and retrofitting [TS]

00:24:20 ◼   ► that into a compatible way into the [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► system just one really work if you took [TS]

00:24:24 ◼   ► away see for objective-c you can't use [TS]

00:24:26 ◼   ► see arrays on the stack for example and [TS]

00:24:28 ◼   ► if you can do that there's entire [TS]

00:24:31 ◼   ► classes of applications that where the [TS]

00:24:33 ◼   ► performance just wouldn't be acceptable [TS]

00:24:34 ◼   ► and so we went around around around we [TS]

00:24:37 ◼   ► said okay [TS]

00:24:38 ◼   ► the only way that this can make sense in [TS]

00:24:42 ◼   ► terms of the cost of the destruction to [TS]

00:24:44 ◼   ► the community is if we make it a safe [TS]

00:24:47 ◼   ► programming language which means not [TS]

00:24:49 ◼   ► safe as in you can have no bugs but safe [TS]

00:24:51 ◼   ► in terms of memory safety while also [TS]

00:24:54 ◼   ► providing high performance and and [TS]

00:24:56 ◼   ► moving the programming model forward and [TS]

00:24:58 ◼   ► so that was really kind of the ideas [TS]

00:25:00 ◼   ► that that came together to make swift [TS]

00:25:03 ◼   ► being worth the investment and being [TS]

00:25:05 ◼   ► worth being disruptive to the community [TS]

00:25:08 ◼   ► so a lot of these kinds of pitches and [TS]

00:25:10 ◼   ► ideas were being held and very small [TS]

00:25:14 ◼   ► small small meetings and coming out of [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► WBC 2013 is one we in the executive team [TS]

00:25:23 ◼   ► decided okay let's let's really commit [TS]

00:25:25 ◼   ► to this and that's coming out of WC 2013 [TS]

00:25:28 ◼   ► is when the developer tools team came to [TS]

00:25:31 ◼   ► know about it and really started working [TS]

00:25:33 ◼   ► hard on it and Swift is Swift as a huge [TS]

00:25:36 ◼   ► huge effort by hundreds of people [TS]

00:25:39 ◼   ► and that's when all the work on bringing [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► up the debugger in the IDE support and [TS]

00:25:44 ◼   ► playgrounds and all the other things [TS]

00:25:45 ◼   ► that the charge into swift one auto [TS]

00:25:47 ◼   ► really started coming together and and [TS]

00:25:50 ◼   ► make happen so it's kind of house which [TS]

00:25:53 ◼   ► came to be lose again one step after [TS]

00:25:55 ◼   ► another building small things explaining [TS]

00:25:58 ◼   ► to people why make sense why was worth [TS]

00:26:00 ◼   ► it and then also I think that a major [TS]

00:26:02 ◼   ► important aspect of Swift being I guess [TS]

00:26:07 ◼   ► worth taking a risk on was that we told [TS]

00:26:11 ◼   ► people that we would not guarantee [TS]

00:26:12 ◼   ► source compatibility in window and that [TS]

00:26:16 ◼   ► was really interesting because that [TS]

00:26:19 ◼   ► actually was a big relief for people [TS]

00:26:20 ◼   ► because internally that meant that it [TS]

00:26:24 ◼   ► didn't have to be perfect when it [TS]

00:26:26 ◼   ► launched it meant that we could learn we [TS]

00:26:27 ◼   ► could adapt and that as long as we're [TS]

00:26:30 ◼   ► clear with the community about that that [TS]

00:26:31 ◼   ► that would allow us to get to ultimate [TS]

00:26:34 ◼   ► greatness and learn from actual usage [TS]

00:26:37 ◼   ► and practice i think that was a really [TS]

00:26:39 ◼   ► key piece to Swift coming in actually [TS]

00:26:42 ◼   ► making it to the market so strategically [TS]

00:26:45 ◼   ► speaking when you were doing like the [TS]

00:26:48 ◼   ► work to improve objective-c did you have [TS]

00:26:51 ◼   ► in mind the ability to potentially [TS]

00:26:53 ◼   ► leverage some of that work for swift [TS]

00:26:56 ◼   ► like we're like I'm trying to like the [TS]

00:26:58 ◼   ► strategy of how you get it done like [TS]

00:26:59 ◼   ► part of his personal relationships and [TS]

00:27:01 ◼   ► like knowing the right people [TS]

00:27:03 ◼   ► part of it is persuasion you have to [TS]

00:27:04 ◼   ► persuade them with your technical [TS]

00:27:05 ◼   ► arguments in your business arguments and [TS]

00:27:06 ◼   ► stuff like that but part of it was part [TS]

00:27:09 ◼   ► of it also laying the groundwork with [TS]

00:27:12 ◼   ► with efforts and technologies that have [TS]

00:27:15 ◼   ► multiple uses [TS]

00:27:16 ◼   ► yeah absolutely so so long for example [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► that is our it was really clear to me [TS]

00:27:21 ◼   ► that if if we get to memory safety we [TS]

00:27:23 ◼   ► had to have automatic memory management [TS]

00:27:24 ◼   ► and I don't know if you wanna go down [TS]

00:27:27 ◼   ► the GC vs arg rabbit hole or not that [TS]

00:27:29 ◼   ► part [TS]

00:27:30 ◼   ► arc seem like obviously the right models [TS]

00:27:32 ◼   ► me and to enter some other people and so [TS]

00:27:35 ◼   ► we said okay we need to get to an [TS]

00:27:38 ◼   ► automatic memory management model [TS]

00:27:41 ◼   ► objective-c isn't because objective-c at [TS]

00:27:43 ◼   ► the time had the are obviously garbage [TS]

00:27:45 ◼   ► collector which had numerous problems [TS]

00:27:47 ◼   ► and so we had to get objective-c to be [TS]

00:27:51 ◼   ► memory manage and so that's why ark was [TS]

00:27:53 ◼   ► who became a thing it became really high [TS]

00:27:56 ◼   ► priority and I think that it's a great [TS]

00:27:59 ◼   ► example of something with by itself had [TS]

00:28:01 ◼   ► a huge amount of value to the [TS]

00:28:02 ◼   ► objective-c community and then after [TS]

00:28:05 ◼   ► that we had similar other efforts like [TS]

00:28:07 ◼   ► modules for example that was a huge [TS]

00:28:09 ◼   ► thing that both improved build time but [TS]

00:28:12 ◼   ► was also absolutely essential to [TS]

00:28:14 ◼   ► enabling swift code to eventually just [TS]

00:28:16 ◼   ► say import UI kit and get everything and [TS]

00:28:19 ◼   ► so there's a number of things that [TS]

00:28:20 ◼   ► rolled out over the years and it was [TS]

00:28:22 ◼   ► really funny at the time because the [TS]

00:28:24 ◼   ► objective developers externally and even [TS]

00:28:27 ◼   ► internally to apple always accused the [TS]

00:28:29 ◼   ► compiler and languages team of taking [TS]

00:28:31 ◼   ► objective-c on this random walk and they [TS]

00:28:33 ◼   ► didn't know how to get together and [TS]

00:28:34 ◼   ► we're where's the strategy and why are [TS]

00:28:37 ◼   ► you guys working on this and why are you [TS]

00:28:38 ◼   ► working on some other syntactic sugar [TS]

00:28:40 ◼   ► for the thing i want and of course we [TS]

00:28:42 ◼   ► could never tell them but there was [TS]

00:28:44 ◼   ► there's a good reason and so on another [TS]

00:28:46 ◼   ► example that is the object literals [TS]

00:28:49 ◼   ► feature i think we introduce that in [TS]

00:28:50 ◼   ► 2013 fire call work for Ray literals and [TS]

00:28:55 ◼   ► other things like that that was [TS]

00:28:58 ◼   ► interesting feature in that it was a [TS]

00:29:00 ◼   ► relatively small amount of engineering [TS]

00:29:03 ◼   ► work the broad objectives the objective [TS]

00:29:06 ◼   ► language much closer to Swift in terms [TS]

00:29:09 ◼   ► of having arrays and dictionaries [TS]

00:29:11 ◼   ► literals as part of the language but the [TS]

00:29:14 ◼   ► real reason for doing it is that it was [TS]

00:29:16 ◼   ► a small amount of work that move [TS]

00:29:18 ◼   ► directly forward which allowed the [TS]

00:29:19 ◼   ► compiler language team to focus on swift [TS]

00:29:21 ◼   ► because with was a very large amount of [TS]

00:29:25 ◼   ► work and that was you know at appeasing [TS]

00:29:28 ◼   ► community and your route solving real [TS]

00:29:31 ◼   ► problems but you know buying time to [TS]

00:29:34 ◼   ► actually pour into the multi-year [TS]

00:29:35 ◼   ► project of making this with language [TS]

00:29:36 ◼   ► happen [TS]

00:29:37 ◼   ► that's when you pull out the syntactic [TS]

00:29:39 ◼   ► sugar programmers love it takes [TS]

00:29:40 ◼   ► attendance implement here you go that [TS]

00:29:43 ◼   ► everyone applauded when they see the [TS]

00:29:44 ◼   ► slide ba I mean in all fairness that was [TS]

00:29:47 ◼   ► a really big deal anyway so it's kind of [TS]

00:29:49 ◼   ► building on on the Apple internal [TS]

00:29:51 ◼   ► reaction thing [TS]

00:29:53 ◼   ► you know with this this language in its [TS]

00:29:56 ◼   ► development and then its public release [TS]

00:29:58 ◼   ► is probably fairly unique language in [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► like the context in which was released [TS]

00:30:02 ◼   ► you have this this massive company [TS]

00:30:05 ◼   ► nobody probably had more absurd the [TS]

00:30:07 ◼   ► objective-c programmers an apple does [TS]

00:30:08 ◼   ► and see this massive company with tons [TS]

00:30:11 ◼   ► of internal programmers in a massive [TS]

00:30:13 ◼   ► internal code base that is using this [TS]

00:30:15 ◼   ► this other language you have this entire [TS]

00:30:17 ◼   ► community of iOS and mac developers and [TS]

00:30:21 ◼   ► then you have the entire world watching [TS]

00:30:24 ◼   ► every move apple makes and putting under [TS]

00:30:26 ◼   ► very very heavy scrutiny so the release [TS]

00:30:29 ◼   ► of his language in this context is [TS]

00:30:30 ◼   ► probably only very high pressure but [TS]

00:30:32 ◼   ► also like unique in that you you knew [TS]

00:30:36 ◼   ► that you were gonna face a lot of people [TS]

00:30:39 ◼   ► up front like most languages probably [TS]

00:30:41 ◼   ► start out with a few people using them [TS]

00:30:42 ◼   ► you know something some random quarter [TS]

00:30:44 ◼   ► the internet and eventually maybe [TS]

00:30:45 ◼   ► someone it maybe it slowly takes off [TS]

00:30:46 ◼   ► this was not that way and so what [TS]

00:30:50 ◼   ► considerations I guess when into that [TS]

00:30:52 ◼   ► and also how were you able to convince [TS]

00:30:55 ◼   ► people even inside of Apple to to use [TS]

00:30:59 ◼   ► swift and and how is how is that going [TS]

00:31:03 ◼   ► so I guess there's different answers [TS]

00:31:07 ◼   ► that four different phases we had no [TS]

00:31:12 ◼   ► idea that the reaction would be as [TS]

00:31:14 ◼   ► strong and as positive as it was and so [TS]

00:31:16 ◼   ► I think we were blown away and caught [TS]

00:31:18 ◼   ► unaware in some ways but otherwise I [TS]

00:31:24 ◼   ► think we did the right thing so for [TS]

00:31:26 ◼   ► example if you look at swift overtime so [TS]

00:31:29 ◼   ► if one and so if two are as similar to [TS]

00:31:32 ◼   ► objective sees we can make them so if [TS]

00:31:35 ◼   ► you look at the way that selectors are [TS]

00:31:36 ◼   ► named for example it was very there's a [TS]

00:31:40 ◼   ► very direct correlation if you look at [TS]

00:31:42 ◼   ► the way objective-c swift one was [TS]

00:31:45 ◼   ► explained to people it was explained to [TS]

00:31:47 ◼   ► people as it's just like objective c you [TS]

00:31:51 ◼   ► can use all your same patterns you can [TS]

00:31:52 ◼   ► use all same framework she can continue [TS]

00:31:54 ◼   ► doing object-oriented programming you [TS]

00:31:56 ◼   ► can do all these things but it also has [TS]

00:31:58 ◼   ► some cool new things like enums and [TS]

00:32:01 ◼   ► pattern matching and [TS]

00:32:02 ◼   ► these other things and so it's great [TS]

00:32:04 ◼   ► because it's just cleaned up syntax for [TS]

00:32:06 ◼   ► what you already know [TS]

00:32:07 ◼   ► plus it has some new cool stuff that you [TS]

00:32:09 ◼   ► can play with right and then you fast [TS]

00:32:11 ◼   ► forward a year or two and the Swift [TS]

00:32:13 ◼   ► community was really taking off [TS]

00:32:15 ◼   ► it was people were understanding what's [TS]

00:32:17 ◼   ► with those about Swift open sources also [TS]

00:32:20 ◼   ► enabled this and so 3 is really about so [TS]

00:32:23 ◼   ► it's becoming its own language that was [TS]

00:32:25 ◼   ► really true to itself and standing you [TS]

00:32:28 ◼   ► know stands by itself and that's where [TS]

00:32:30 ◼   ► you see the method call syntax for [TS]

00:32:32 ◼   ► example being radically changed and a [TS]

00:32:35 ◼   ► lot of things just kind of coming [TS]

00:32:36 ◼   ► together and really focusing and [TS]

00:32:40 ◼   ► polishing the language in terms of the [TS]

00:32:43 ◼   ► the rise of the community the the [TS]

00:32:45 ◼   ► external community and people using it [TS]

00:32:47 ◼   ► that was really really hard for us [TS]

00:32:50 ◼   ► because so my experience has been with [TS]

00:32:53 ◼   ► lv and with clang clang as a C and C++ [TS]

00:32:56 ◼   ► compiler and objective-c was completely [TS]

00:33:00 ◼   ► different than Swift because when we [TS]

00:33:02 ◼   ► open source and launch claim which was [TS]

00:33:05 ◼   ► at Apple everybody yond open source it [TS]

00:33:12 ◼   ► very early on and people said okay [TS]

00:33:13 ◼   ► you're nuts nobody can build a c++ [TS]

00:33:15 ◼   ► compiler that's that's not a thing why [TS]

00:33:18 ◼   ► are you even messing around with this [TS]

00:33:19 ◼   ► and you know we got one contributor to [TS]

00:33:22 ◼   ► the project and we had no users and then [TS]

00:33:25 ◼   ► we got you know month later we might get [TS]

00:33:26 ◼   ► another contributor or another person [TS]

00:33:28 ◼   ► part-time the setting and patches and it [TS]

00:33:31 ◼   ► was a very slow growth that that was [TS]

00:33:34 ◼   ► ultimately really great because it was [TS]

00:33:37 ◼   ► relatively low pressure was swift and [TS]

00:33:39 ◼   ► with the the way was launched it was [TS]

00:33:41 ◼   ► completely different because it went [TS]

00:33:43 ◼   ► from nobody knowing about to everybody [TS]

00:33:45 ◼   ► knowing about it overnight literally and [TS]

00:33:48 ◼   ► there being so much excitement so many [TS]

00:33:51 ◼   ► people that were nervous and had bad [TS]

00:33:53 ◼   ► reactions other people that were super [TS]

00:33:55 ◼   ► excited but a lot of people that were [TS]

00:33:57 ◼   ► suddenly hitting bugs and having [TS]

00:33:59 ◼   ► challenges and problems and why did you [TS]

00:34:01 ◼   ► do this and why didn't you do that and [TS]

00:34:03 ◼   ► you know some of that was misguided just [TS]

00:34:05 ◼   ► because they didn't know Swift yet but [TS]

00:34:07 ◼   ► other others other aspects were really [TS]

00:34:09 ◼   ► spot-on and that was 12 really started [TS]

00:34:12 ◼   ► learning about how people are using and [TS]

00:34:14 ◼   ► started [TS]

00:34:14 ◼   ► during moving Swift and Swift between [TS]

00:34:17 ◼   ► the WBC lon chance with one auto release [TS]

00:34:21 ◼   ► change dramatically and that was a [TS]

00:34:24 ◼   ► really really hard time for the entire [TS]

00:34:26 ◼   ► team because we really want to get it as [TS]

00:34:29 ◼   ► close as we could what we wanted but we [TS]

00:34:31 ◼   ► had a very short amount of time to do so [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► and I think that's been true first with [TS]

00:34:36 ◼   ► two and so with three as well where we [TS]

00:34:38 ◼   ► have really high goals for the team and [TS]

00:34:41 ◼   ► really high goals for what we want to [TS]

00:34:43 ◼   ► get done and that makes it a lot a lot [TS]

00:34:45 ◼   ► of pressure and a lot of stress but it's [TS]

00:34:49 ◼   ► I think worth it to serve and see the [TS]

00:34:52 ◼   ► community around Swift grow and see [TS]

00:34:55 ◼   ► people use it and see people learn it [TS]

00:34:57 ◼   ► and it's been a lot of fun so I'm [TS]

00:34:59 ◼   ► curious [TS]

00:35:00 ◼   ► I know when Swift first came out it was [TS]

00:35:02 ◼   ► hard to get a lot of adoption inside of [TS]

00:35:05 ◼   ► apple for various you know tooling [TS]

00:35:07 ◼   ► reasons uh among men maybe whatever else [TS]

00:35:09 ◼   ► was going on [TS]

00:35:10 ◼   ► how is internal adoption going today [TS]

00:35:13 ◼   ► like re seeing meaningful adoption hours [TS]

00:35:15 ◼   ► at most i was programs were using it and [TS]

00:35:17 ◼   ► not anybody inside the White team itself [TS]

00:35:20 ◼   ► has specific goals they need to achieve [TS]

00:35:23 ◼   ► before there can be truly [TS]

00:35:24 ◼   ► across-the-board adoption at Apple's ABI [TS]

00:35:28 ◼   ► stability is the number one thing that [TS]

00:35:30 ◼   ► prevents framework developers for [TS]

00:35:31 ◼   ► example from adopting Swift so that's a [TS]

00:35:34 ◼   ► really important thing that's one of the [TS]

00:35:36 ◼   ► reasons it's always a really high [TS]

00:35:37 ◼   ► priority but switch has been adopted by [TS]

00:35:40 ◼   ► application developers and other things [TS]

00:35:42 ◼   ► the doc is publix with playgrounds app [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► is public the music app in iOS is [TS]

00:35:48 ◼   ► publicly known so they're they're [TS]

00:35:49 ◼   ► definitely some big big adopters more [TS]

00:35:52 ◼   ► broadly though that the big problem is [TS]

00:35:53 ◼   ► that i think and i will speak for [TS]

00:35:56 ◼   ► everybody but in many many people doing [TS]

00:35:59 ◼   ► objects development and Apple are [TS]

00:36:01 ◼   ► chomping at the bit they want to be [TS]

00:36:02 ◼   ► using Swift and so it's it's really [TS]

00:36:04 ◼   ► matter just getting the technology [TS]

00:36:06 ◼   ► problem-solve didn't get you know [TS]

00:36:07 ◼   ► checking out the things are holding [TS]

00:36:09 ◼   ► people back it's not about you know [TS]

00:36:12 ◼   ► people dragging their feet and not [TS]

00:36:14 ◼   ► wanting to use it makes sense that's [TS]

00:36:16 ◼   ► really also get it from from the outside [TS]

00:36:18 ◼   ► it's so hard to figure out you know is [TS]

00:36:20 ◼   ► is Apple internally like oh really [TS]

00:36:23 ◼   ► or for example internally like you said [TS]

00:36:25 ◼   ► like really excited and I'm sure that [TS]

00:36:26 ◼   ► there's some of both but [TS]

00:36:27 ◼   ► but that's really good to hear yeah and [TS]

00:36:29 ◼   ► i think it's also changed over time when [TS]

00:36:32 ◼   ► it first came out of course it was a [TS]

00:36:34 ◼   ► huge surprise for most of the software [TS]

00:36:36 ◼   ► team and so you know many people went [TS]

00:36:39 ◼   ► through the usual phases of matter and [TS]

00:36:42 ◼   ► no objective c why would have learned [TS]

00:36:44 ◼   ► this new thing objective-c is great and [TS]

00:36:45 ◼   ► objective-c is great so that that's [TS]

00:36:48 ◼   ► that's an objective statement right but [TS]

00:36:52 ◼   ► I think things have shifted over time [TS]

00:36:53 ◼   ► and as switches matured it's definitely [TS]

00:36:56 ◼   ► become a lot more appealing and one [TS]

00:36:58 ◼   ► other technology problem that is [TS]

00:37:00 ◼   ► hilarious but also really important is [TS]

00:37:03 ◼   ► the Apple frameworks that has to support [TS]

00:37:06 ◼   ► 32 the mac apps in 37 mac apps have this [TS]

00:37:09 ◼   ► interesting challenge of they have [TS]

00:37:11 ◼   ► what's called the classic objective-c [TS]

00:37:13 ◼   ► runtime which doesn't support things [TS]

00:37:16 ◼   ► like non fragile instance variables and [TS]

00:37:18 ◼   ► things like that and so at some point [TS]

00:37:20 ◼   ► I'm the Swift team will need to make the [TS]

00:37:22 ◼   ► Swift runtime work in that mode or [TS]

00:37:24 ◼   ► figure out some other solution to adapt [TS]

00:37:27 ◼   ► it because until that happens it won't [TS]

00:37:29 ◼   ► be possible use Swift an appt get for [TS]

00:37:31 ◼   ► example [TS]

00:37:32 ◼   ► well that's fascinating so kind of [TS]

00:37:35 ◼   ► taking a more broad view do you could [TS]

00:37:40 ◼   ► you name either you're most proud [TS]

00:37:42 ◼   ► accomplishment during your time at Apple [TS]

00:37:44 ◼   ► that you can discuss publicly anyway or [TS]

00:37:46 ◼   ► if not you're most proud just won the [TS]

00:37:48 ◼   ► first one that jumps to mind [TS]

00:37:49 ◼   ► wow I don't have been really fortunate [TS]

00:37:53 ◼   ► to work on so many really important [TS]

00:37:55 ◼   ► projects and I mean I think that between [TS]

00:37:59 ◼   ► lvm and swift for example it's really a [TS]

00:38:03 ◼   ► hard call [TS]

00:38:03 ◼   ► I'm Swift I think impacts more people in [TS]

00:38:08 ◼   ► terms of the number of people would [TS]

00:38:10 ◼   ► actually know they're using it and want [TS]

00:38:13 ◼   ► to learn it and things like that but i [TS]

00:38:14 ◼   ► think the lvm has been picked up and use [TS]

00:38:17 ◼   ► so far across industry and its kind of [TS]

00:38:19 ◼   ► standardizing the world's compilers I [TS]

00:38:21 ◼   ► think that's probably more profound at [TS]

00:38:23 ◼   ► this point so it's really it's a start [TS]

00:38:27 ◼   ► calling and that they're there are a ton [TS]

00:38:29 ◼   ► of really really great opportunities [TS]

00:38:33 ◼   ► that I've had and spend a lot of fun [TS]

00:38:35 ◼   ► over many years now [TS]

00:38:36 ◼   ► also outside the open-source pieces [TS]

00:38:38 ◼   ► working with the expert team and working [TS]

00:38:41 ◼   ► with the other teams and developer tools [TS]

00:38:42 ◼   ► has been really phenomenal [TS]

00:38:43 ◼   ► I mean there's so many great people at [TS]

00:38:45 ◼   ► Apple and Android developer tools it's [TS]

00:38:47 ◼   ► just been a joy [TS]

00:38:48 ◼   ► so what do you expect to miss the most [TS]

00:38:51 ◼   ► about being an apple and I'm gonna take [TS]

00:38:53 ◼   ► I'm gonna let you expand on this but I'm [TS]

00:38:55 ◼   ► gonna take it off the table and so you [TS]

00:38:56 ◼   ► have to pick like your second choice [TS]

00:38:57 ◼   ► you're gonna say like you miss the [TS]

00:38:58 ◼   ► people because of course you do right [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► yes that is actually what i would say [TS]

00:39:02 ◼   ► right but everybody you know so you can [TS]

00:39:04 ◼   ► go ahead and tell us about all the great [TS]

00:39:05 ◼   ► people your example but besides that [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► what do you expect to miss most about [TS]

00:39:09 ◼   ► Apple the company working well so the [TS]

00:39:11 ◼   ► great thing about Apple and the thing [TS]

00:39:13 ◼   ► that I don't think that many people [TS]

00:39:14 ◼   ► really get about Apple is it is really [TS]

00:39:19 ◼   ► one of the few best place in the world [TS]

00:39:22 ◼   ► where you can work hard but also work on [TS]

00:39:25 ◼   ► products that ship and the ship to [TS]

00:39:29 ◼   ► millions of people so that your hard [TS]

00:39:31 ◼   ► work ends up mattering right there [TS]

00:39:33 ◼   ► there's a lot of places you can work [TS]

00:39:35 ◼   ► hard there's a lot of places that you [TS]

00:39:37 ◼   ► can work on interesting things but [TS]

00:39:40 ◼   ► there's also a lot of places end up not [TS]

00:39:42 ◼   ► shipping a lot or or if they ship it [TS]

00:39:45 ◼   ► very few people actually use it and so [TS]

00:39:47 ◼   ► apples really really magical in that [TS]

00:39:50 ◼   ► combines being you know being able to [TS]

00:39:53 ◼   ► work hard and in do great things with it [TS]

00:39:55 ◼   ► actually mattering and to me that that's [TS]

00:39:57 ◼   ► the thing that that is just so so [TS]

00:39:59 ◼   ► phenomenal about Apple so so moving on [TS]

00:40:03 ◼   ► to your new role at Tesla do you think [TS]

00:40:06 ◼   ► that Swift will still be a major part of [TS]

00:40:09 ◼   ► your work life in some way like you know [TS]

00:40:11 ◼   ► or will basically be like something you [TS]

00:40:13 ◼   ► do in the evenings and weekends because [TS]

00:40:15 ◼   ► we all know that that Silicon Valley [TS]

00:40:16 ◼   ► tech startups don't usually work people [TS]

00:40:18 ◼   ► too hard you're gonna have tons of free [TS]

00:40:19 ◼   ► time [TS]

00:40:20 ◼   ► yeah so this jump on making is [TS]

00:40:22 ◼   ► definitely do a cushy no easy that right [TS]

00:40:26 ◼   ► that that's what I'm looking for here uh [TS]

00:40:30 ◼   ► so i don't know we'll have to see i [TS]

00:40:33 ◼   ► haven't started yet and i think it's [TS]

00:40:36 ◼   ► going to be very challenging job and one [TS]

00:40:37 ◼   ► of the reasons I'm excited about it [TS]

00:40:39 ◼   ► because I really want to throw myself [TS]

00:40:40 ◼   ► into another heart technology problem [TS]

00:40:43 ◼   ► and so I'm really excited about that i [TS]

00:40:45 ◼   ► do expect to be involved with the design [TS]

00:40:47 ◼   ► of swift and helping helping with the [TS]

00:40:50 ◼   ► core team and helping Swift evolution [TS]

00:40:51 ◼   ► process and helping in and allow that [TS]

00:40:53 ◼   ► kind of respect but one of things to [TS]

00:40:55 ◼   ► keep in mind is that Swift was actually [TS]

00:40:57 ◼   ► really tiny slice of my job at apple and [TS]

00:41:01 ◼   ► so you know I had a very full schedule [TS]

00:41:05 ◼   ► dealing with lots of other stuff and it [TS]

00:41:08 ◼   ► was already kind of nights and weekends [TS]

00:41:09 ◼   ► project that i was coating on it and [TS]

00:41:12 ◼   ► contributing at the level that I was so [TS]

00:41:15 ◼   ► I'm hoping with all be a big change but [TS]

00:41:17 ◼   ► honestly i'll have to see obviously I [TS]

00:41:20 ◼   ► care a lot about Swift and I really want [TS]

00:41:22 ◼   ► to get to its go over world domination [TS]

00:41:25 ◼   ► so we're sponsor tonight by eero go to [TS]

00:41:28 ◼   ► eurocom at the ER o.com and use code ATP [TS]

00:41:32 ◼   ► when you order for free expedited [TS]

00:41:33 ◼   ► shipping Wi-Fi is broken [TS]

00:41:36 ◼   ► you probably have one Wi-Fi router with [TS]

00:41:38 ◼   ► if you're lucky a bunch of antennas on [TS]

00:41:40 ◼   ► that look hideous and you're trying to [TS]

00:41:43 ◼   ► cover your whole house with Wi-Fi but it [TS]

00:41:44 ◼   ► just doesn't reach every room [TS]

00:41:46 ◼   ► it just doesn't reach everywhere because [TS]

00:41:47 ◼   ► Wi-Fi is hard when you're recovering [TS]

00:41:49 ◼   ► from 1.0 solve this problem by having a [TS]

00:41:53 ◼   ► router system where they will they had [TS]

00:41:55 ◼   ► this little ear units nice attractive [TS]

00:41:56 ◼   ► it's tastefully designed there's not a [TS]

00:41:58 ◼   ► bunch of antennae sticking out of it and [TS]

00:42:00 ◼   ► you can buy one of them or you can buy [TS]

00:42:02 ◼   ► 10 of them are a number in between and [TS]

00:42:04 ◼   ► that you put them around your house and [TS]

00:42:06 ◼   ► each one covers the area in Wi-Fi and [TS]

00:42:09 ◼   ► they all talk to each other [TS]

00:42:11 ◼   ► wirelessly so you don't have to run [TS]

00:42:12 ◼   ► wires love your house you can have your [TS]

00:42:14 ◼   ► entire house blanketed in Wi-Fi with 0 [TS]

00:42:16 ◼   ► and they talk to each other over this [TS]

00:42:18 ◼   ► mesh network so it's even faster than [TS]

00:42:20 ◼   ► previous if you ever use like an [TS]

00:42:21 ◼   ► extender and centers are very slow [TS]

00:42:23 ◼   ► it's even faster than that by a lot and [TS]

00:42:26 ◼   ► 0 is true enterprise-grade quality and [TS]

00:42:28 ◼   ► performance they have everything you [TS]

00:42:30 ◼   ► need from encryption features two things [TS]

00:42:32 ◼   ► like parental controls and that they're [TS]

00:42:33 ◼   ► actually updating it over time they've [TS]

00:42:35 ◼   ► done over 12 updates since launch with [TS]

00:42:37 ◼   ► more to come to add features they have [TS]

00:42:39 ◼   ► an app for very easy setup and they have [TS]

00:42:41 ◼   ► incredible customer support if you need [TS]

00:42:43 ◼   ► it [TS]

00:42:44 ◼   ► they recommend 10 per thousand square [TS]

00:42:45 ◼   ► feet so typical home will have two or [TS]

00:42:47 ◼   ► three of them they got a three pack as a [TS]

00:42:49 ◼   ► pretty reasonable starting point for [TS]

00:42:50 ◼   ► most everybody there's a 30 day [TS]

00:42:52 ◼   ► money-back guarantee if you don't like [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► it or if you could buy too many you want [TS]

00:42:55 ◼   ► to return a couple of them if you [TS]

00:42:56 ◼   ► I'm not eating as many as you bought [TS]

00:42:58 ◼   ► check it out the reviews are stellar [TS]

00:43:00 ◼   ► they back this up go to 0 comments de ro [TS]

00:43:04 ◼   ► dah calm and use code ATP when you order [TS]

00:43:07 ◼   ► for free expedited shipping [TS]

00:43:09 ◼   ► thank you very much to ero for [TS]

00:43:10 ◼   ► sponsoring our show ah you know [TS]

00:43:16 ◼   ► obviously Swift is open-source I don't [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► know if you're aware that Chris but uh [TS]

00:43:18 ◼   ► huh i'm looking at yeah right at how do [TS]

00:43:21 ◼   ► you feel like it's been going so far in [TS]

00:43:23 ◼   ► i'm assuming similar to John you know [TS]

00:43:25 ◼   ► I'm gonna take away the obvious answer [TS]

00:43:27 ◼   ► it's going well but it may be too kind [TS]

00:43:29 ◼   ► of Q conversation what's been really [TS]

00:43:32 ◼   ► surprising about going open source and [TS]

00:43:35 ◼   ► and you can get a specific or as broad [TS]

00:43:37 ◼   ► as you'd like to be but I got to imagine [TS]

00:43:38 ◼   ► that that you guys had a bunch of [TS]

00:43:41 ◼   ► expectations about what going open [TS]

00:43:43 ◼   ► source would be like and i would imagine [TS]

00:43:44 ◼   ► some of them are accurate and some of [TS]

00:43:45 ◼   ► them weren't so how do you feel like the [TS]

00:43:47 ◼   ► Swift open source project has been going [TS]

00:43:48 ◼   ► yeah so I think that 22 to summarize [TS]

00:43:52 ◼   ► it's not just going well it's going far [TS]

00:43:54 ◼   ► better than we ever anticipated and that [TS]

00:43:56 ◼   ► caused problems so for context [TS]

00:44:02 ◼   ► I and many of the other people on the [TS]

00:44:03 ◼   ► team had quite a bit of open-source [TS]

00:44:05 ◼   ► experience so elevated claim for example [TS]

00:44:08 ◼   ► open-source they they were they are [TS]

00:44:12 ◼   ► vibrant and amazing communities with [TS]

00:44:14 ◼   ► hundreds of contributors and dozens of [TS]

00:44:18 ◼   ► companies are collaborating in public [TS]

00:44:20 ◼   ► and doing really amazing stuff even some [TS]

00:44:22 ◼   ► of the most staunch competitors you know [TS]

00:44:25 ◼   ► AMD AMD and intel and AMD and nvidia or [TS]

00:44:29 ◼   ► you know the these kinds of companies [TS]

00:44:30 ◼   ► that really you know don't get along on [TS]

00:44:33 ◼   ► the business side of things but the [TS]

00:44:35 ◼   ► engineers were great at working engineer [TS]

00:44:37 ◼   ► to engineer and solving problems and [TS]

00:44:39 ◼   ► stay focused on making things better so [TS]

00:44:42 ◼   ► with Swift we assume that would be very [TS]

00:44:45 ◼   ► similar to that but what we found is [TS]

00:44:48 ◼   ► that there was a major difference [TS]

00:44:49 ◼   ► between launching Swift and launching [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► something like playing for example which [TS]

00:44:53 ◼   ► is that when Swift losses open source [TS]

00:44:56 ◼   ► which was december third just over a [TS]

00:44:58 ◼   ► year ago in RI had I don't know a [TS]

00:45:02 ◼   ► million users and we're playing [TS]

00:45:06 ◼   ► started and every yond and didn't really [TS]

00:45:09 ◼   ► care and grew slowly Swift open-source [TS]

00:45:13 ◼   ► started and was amazingly fast moving [TS]

00:45:16 ◼   ► changing tons of people hundreds of [TS]

00:45:19 ◼   ► patches on the first day it was totally [TS]

00:45:20 ◼   ► crazy and we didn't really know what to [TS]

00:45:22 ◼   ► do and so I mean it's I i am like super [TS]

00:45:26 ◼   ► impressed with the the Swift open source [TS]

00:45:28 ◼   ► community and all the people involved in [TS]

00:45:30 ◼   ► the energy and just think it's just it's [TS]

00:45:32 ◼   ► hard it's hard to believe how great [TS]

00:45:34 ◼   ► everything is but it it really did [TS]

00:45:37 ◼   ► create problems because we had to figure [TS]

00:45:38 ◼   ► out things like how we're gonna stay up [TS]

00:45:40 ◼   ► on in terms of the patch volume [TS]

00:45:42 ◼   ► okay we're getting hundreds and hundreds [TS]

00:45:43 ◼   ► of emails a day to the Swift evolution [TS]

00:45:45 ◼   ► mailing list what are we going to do [TS]

00:45:47 ◼   ► about that [TS]

00:45:47 ◼   ► how do we balance apples goals for [TS]

00:45:52 ◼   ► pushing Swift forward with the goals of [TS]

00:45:53 ◼   ► the community which are somewhat more [TS]

00:45:55 ◼   ► chaotic and last directed and I think [TS]

00:45:58 ◼   ► that over last year we've learned a lot [TS]

00:46:00 ◼   ► and you can see that reflect in terms of [TS]

00:46:02 ◼   ► how the project is being managed and how [TS]

00:46:05 ◼   ► how things are being done but it's [TS]

00:46:07 ◼   ► always been super important to be not [TS]

00:46:10 ◼   ► just open source but I guess if you look [TS]

00:46:14 ◼   ► at an open source project there's [TS]

00:46:15 ◼   ► there's three kind of easy levels to to [TS]

00:46:18 ◼   ► look at it the first basic requirement [TS]

00:46:21 ◼   ► the ssi to be open sources to make your [TS]

00:46:23 ◼   ► code available right and so you can [TS]

00:46:25 ◼   ► produce tarballs periodically and that's [TS]

00:46:27 ◼   ► technically open source you can allow [TS]

00:46:31 ◼   ► contributions and if you do that through [TS]

00:46:33 ◼   ► pull requests or patches or whatever [TS]

00:46:35 ◼   ► then people can engage with it and make [TS]

00:46:38 ◼   ► the code better [TS]

00:46:39 ◼   ► there's open community so not only can [TS]

00:46:42 ◼   ► do you accept a patch but you actually [TS]

00:46:44 ◼   ► discuss things and talk about things in [TS]

00:46:47 ◼   ► public and then there's open design and [TS]

00:46:50 ◼   ► with Swift we went all the way and I [TS]

00:46:51 ◼   ► think it was totally the right thing to [TS]

00:46:53 ◼   ► do because we really want to benefit [TS]

00:46:54 ◼   ► from all the smart people in the world [TS]

00:46:56 ◼   ► and it was it and still is amazing but [TS]

00:47:00 ◼   ► it's also very challenging [TS]

00:47:01 ◼   ► yeah I can imagine so building upon the [TS]

00:47:05 ◼   ► open sourcing of Swift it was very [TS]

00:47:08 ◼   ► surprising to me and I think a lot of [TS]

00:47:09 ◼   ► the community that Apple chose to upload [TS]

00:47:12 ◼   ► the entire commit history it wasn't just [TS]

00:47:14 ◼   ► a here's day one initial commitment you [TS]

00:47:16 ◼   ► know 11 gazillion files and [TS]

00:47:18 ◼   ► the gazillion lines of code was that [TS]

00:47:21 ◼   ► plan from the start that you guys would [TS]

00:47:23 ◼   ► upload the entire history i would say it [TS]

00:47:25 ◼   ► was planned from the start that we'd [TS]

00:47:26 ◼   ► upload the entire history but it was [TS]

00:47:28 ◼   ► kind of assumed from the start that it [TS]

00:47:30 ◼   ► would be open source at some point [TS]

00:47:32 ◼   ► interesting and if you look at apple's [TS]

00:47:35 ◼   ► history i think that's that's in the [TS]

00:47:38 ◼   ► tool space I think that's fairly [TS]

00:47:40 ◼   ► straightforward lvm wasn't started at [TS]

00:47:44 ◼   ► Apple but almost almost everything Apple [TS]

00:47:49 ◼   ► does end up going public in the same [TS]

00:47:51 ◼   ► space [TS]

00:47:52 ◼   ► clang was started at apple and claimed [TS]

00:47:54 ◼   ► was contributed by Apple to the album [TS]

00:47:57 ◼   ► project and that included his full [TS]

00:48:00 ◼   ► revision history other projects like ldb [TS]

00:48:02 ◼   ► and lip c++ compiler RT and all these [TS]

00:48:06 ◼   ► other smaller projects were started at [TS]

00:48:09 ◼   ► apple and contribute to the open source [TS]

00:48:10 ◼   ► project so Swift it was kind of assumed [TS]

00:48:13 ◼   ► that that would happen at some point the [TS]

00:48:15 ◼   ► the real question was when when is the [TS]

00:48:17 ◼   ► right time for that to happen and if you [TS]

00:48:20 ◼   ► remember the days of Swift window Swift [TS]

00:48:23 ◼   ► 1022 dunno in particular was a super [TS]

00:48:26 ◼   ► chaotic super learning as we went and [TS]

00:48:29 ◼   ► trying to keep up with the community and [TS]

00:48:30 ◼   ► trying to keep up with the pace and the [TS]

00:48:32 ◼   ► challenges that people were facing and [TS]

00:48:34 ◼   ► trying to get key pieces like the [TS]

00:48:36 ◼   ► air-handling model and protocol [TS]

00:48:37 ◼   ► extensions and all that kind of stuff [TS]

00:48:38 ◼   ► that it always been planned but one [TS]

00:48:41 ◼   ► didn't make it into Swift window and so [TS]

00:48:43 ◼   ► really focusing on that was the priority [TS]

00:48:45 ◼   ► and so we just decided that open [TS]

00:48:48 ◼   ► sourcing Swift at 10 for example would [TS]

00:48:50 ◼   ► be really actually bad for the Swift [TS]

00:48:53 ◼   ► community because there are major pieces [TS]

00:48:54 ◼   ► language that weren't there we would [TS]

00:48:57 ◼   ► have to spend a lot of time community [TS]

00:48:59 ◼   ► building and try to explain to people [TS]

00:49:00 ◼   ► the difference between what was not [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► there but should be there and what is [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► you know there and known broken and we [TS]

00:49:08 ◼   ► had to do a lot of that one swift was [TS]

00:49:10 ◼   ► eventually open source than in last year [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► right after Swift to toronto but it was [TS]

00:49:15 ◼   ► a much better place and the team could [TS]

00:49:16 ◼   ► actually handle the load of doing the [TS]

00:49:19 ◼   ► community and we didn't expect the kind [TS]

00:49:22 ◼   ► response we got but we knew that [TS]

00:49:23 ◼   ► building a vibrant open source community [TS]

00:49:25 ◼   ► is a lot of work and it's not something [TS]

00:49:26 ◼   ► to be under underestimated we want to [TS]

00:49:29 ◼   ► make sure that Swift to was out the door [TS]

00:49:31 ◼   ► and it wasn't kind of a resource [TS]

00:49:33 ◼   ► contention between do we finished with [TS]

00:49:36 ◼   ► two or do we start open source and that [TS]

00:49:39 ◼   ► and that's why I was announced to be [TS]

00:49:41 ◼   ► open source by the end of the year [TS]

00:49:42 ◼   ► because that meant that we can start [TS]

00:49:44 ◼   ► working on the open-source [TS]

00:49:45 ◼   ► infrastructure project bringing up all [TS]

00:49:47 ◼   ► the other stuff that takes to make [TS]

00:49:48 ◼   ► something open source after Swift is [TS]

00:49:50 ◼   ► complete so my recollection of the Swift [TS]

00:49:54 ◼   ► three in the planning stages was that [TS]

00:49:56 ◼   ► ABI compatibility was somewhere in the [TS]

00:50:00 ◼   ► list of I'm not gonna call them goals [TS]

00:50:03 ◼   ► but somewhere in the list of items that [TS]

00:50:05 ◼   ► were in contention for a swift 3 and at [TS]

00:50:07 ◼   ► some point along the development process [TS]

00:50:09 ◼   ► of Swift 3.avi comparability got [TS]

00:50:11 ◼   ► postponed and given what you just said [TS]

00:50:14 ◼   ► about the importance of ABI [TS]

00:50:15 ◼   ► compatibility for the framework people [TS]

00:50:17 ◼   ► inside apple or whatever [TS]

00:50:18 ◼   ► what can you say about that is the did [TS]

00:50:22 ◼   ► you learn lessons from ABI compatibility [TS]

00:50:25 ◼   ► being planned for the three or do you [TS]

00:50:27 ◼   ► think like it was never really hard and [TS]

00:50:29 ◼   ► fast goal and you totally made the right [TS]

00:50:31 ◼   ► call to delay it or are you disappointed [TS]

00:50:33 ◼   ► that it didn't make it [TS]

00:50:34 ◼   ► I'm i think many of those things I mean [TS]

00:50:37 ◼   ► we're disappointed that it got delayed [TS]

00:50:38 ◼   ► but it was totally the right time I [TS]

00:50:41 ◼   ► think that there's a couple of things to [TS]

00:50:43 ◼   ► learn from that one of which is software [TS]

00:50:44 ◼   ► schedule planning is hard but breaking [TS]

00:50:49 ◼   ► this [TS]

00:50:50 ◼   ► yeah so that that's definitely still [TS]

00:50:52 ◼   ► thing there's also that we didn't [TS]

00:50:55 ◼   ► anticipate the so the original plan [TS]

00:50:58 ◼   ► you're referring to was announced before [TS]

00:51:00 ◼   ► switch is open source or super sorry was [TS]

00:51:02 ◼   ► announced the same time so it was open [TS]

00:51:03 ◼   ► source and so we had no idea that the [TS]

00:51:06 ◼   ► community would descend on swift and [TS]

00:51:08 ◼   ► suddenly have all these new demands and [TS]

00:51:11 ◼   ► consume so much time and energy from [TS]

00:51:14 ◼   ► that have took away from programming to [TS]

00:51:16 ◼   ► do the community building peace so that [TS]

00:51:18 ◼   ► was part of it [TS]

00:51:19 ◼   ► another part of it is that even [TS]

00:51:21 ◼   ► stability is super important but it's [TS]

00:51:24 ◼   ► not as important as people think it is [TS]

00:51:26 ◼   ► for application developers it's really [TS]

00:51:28 ◼   ► important to apple but what we realized [TS]

00:51:32 ◼   ► in the three timeframe is that the thing [TS]

00:51:33 ◼   ► after developers would benefit from the [TS]

00:51:36 ◼   ► most was actually sourced ability so who [TS]

00:51:40 ◼   ► actually wants their application be [TS]

00:51:42 ◼   ► broken when they get new version of [TS]

00:51:43 ◼   ► xcode [TS]

00:51:44 ◼   ► well really nobody right and so and so [TS]

00:51:48 ◼   ► kind of halfway through the release we [TS]

00:51:49 ◼   ► pivoted and source can soar stability [TS]

00:51:52 ◼   ► became the goal and so I'm really [TS]

00:51:54 ◼   ► excited that ones with the three don't [TS]

00:51:56 ◼   ► want or so for comes out that I'm still [TS]

00:51:59 ◼   ► gonna be able to build with three code [TS]

00:52:00 ◼   ► and even if there are minor changes that [TS]

00:52:03 ◼   ► need to be made for one reason or [TS]

00:52:04 ◼   ► another that you can upgrade and you [TS]

00:52:07 ◼   ► have great compatibility with your old [TS]

00:52:09 ◼   ► code and you don't have to start the [TS]

00:52:11 ◼   ► migrator before you can do anything so [TS]

00:52:13 ◼   ► it's gonna be a great improvement for [TS]

00:52:14 ◼   ► people's lives [TS]

00:52:16 ◼   ► alright so moving on a little bit to [TS]

00:52:18 ◼   ► that kind of this branch topic here of [TS]

00:52:21 ◼   ► server-side Swift with on linux things [TS]

00:52:23 ◼   ► like this is is switched on the server [TS]

00:52:27 ◼   ► something that you know I i know it's [TS]

00:52:30 ◼   ► possible and there's like some seemingly [TS]

00:52:33 ◼   ► some early efforts now to get that going [TS]

00:52:35 ◼   ► it do you see this as like a major goal [TS]

00:52:38 ◼   ► first trip to the language and you're [TS]

00:52:40 ◼   ► not not any kind of official capacity [TS]

00:52:42 ◼   ► just like you as a person who who likes [TS]

00:52:44 ◼   ► and user Swift and has as a you know a [TS]

00:52:46 ◼   ► strong role in the community like is [TS]

00:52:50 ◼   ► server-side Swift a thing that you want [TS]

00:52:53 ◼   ► to be like a major thing to compete with [TS]

00:52:55 ◼   ► you know things like Python rails and [TS]

00:52:57 ◼   ► stuff on the server or is it intended [TS]

00:53:00 ◼   ► more to be kind of like a specialized [TS]

00:53:02 ◼   ► thing that is probably not going to be [TS]

00:53:03 ◼   ► in widespread use by like web and [TS]

00:53:05 ◼   ► back-end programmers so I think that [TS]

00:53:08 ◼   ► everybody involved with the project [TS]

00:53:11 ◼   ► wanted to be the way to do server [TS]

00:53:13 ◼   ► development and I think that to [TS]

00:53:17 ◼   ► understand that you have to understand [TS]

00:53:18 ◼   ► were just kind of entering phase 2 [TS]

00:53:21 ◼   ► Swift's world domination plan so this [TS]

00:53:27 ◼   ► will probably sound insane but maybe in [TS]

00:53:29 ◼   ► a few years it will sound less than [TS]

00:53:31 ◼   ► saying it but the way to look at it the [TS]

00:53:34 ◼   ► way i look at it and the way that many [TS]

00:53:36 ◼   ► other people have to look at it is that [TS]

00:53:37 ◼   ► we want swift be the next big thing [TS]

00:53:41 ◼   ► right we wanted to be more popular than [TS]

00:53:42 ◼   ► Java was or is we want to be more [TS]

00:53:45 ◼   ► popular than Python we want to be maybe [TS]

00:53:46 ◼   ► even more popular than see someday right [TS]

00:53:48 ◼   ► that's that would be a stretch but but [TS]

00:53:51 ◼   ► that would be great and so if if thats [TS]

00:53:54 ◼   ► problem solved how do you solve that [TS]

00:53:55 ◼   ► problem well open source is a huge piece [TS]

00:53:58 ◼   ► of that right without open-source it's [TS]

00:53:59 ◼   ► not going to be available in other [TS]

00:54:00 ◼   ► people's platforms it's not gonna be [TS]

00:54:02 ◼   ► used in education and teaching as that's [TS]

00:54:05 ◼   ► just not gonna happen and so open [TS]

00:54:06 ◼   ► sources a major piece of that if you go [TS]

00:54:09 ◼   ► back farther before that Swift world [TS]

00:54:12 ◼   ► domination doesn't happen unless with [TS]

00:54:14 ◼   ► games relevance right and I think Swift [TS]

00:54:18 ◼   ► has nailed the relevance side of things [TS]

00:54:20 ◼   ► with the iOS and a platform development [TS]

00:54:23 ◼   ► side of the story were you know maybe [TS]

00:54:27 ◼   ► not Marco but their new most people are [TS]

00:54:29 ◼   ► pushing the Swift very quickly and [TS]

00:54:31 ◼   ► seemed very happy using actually i [TS]

00:54:33 ◼   ► started using it today [TS]

00:54:34 ◼   ► okay good call i switch today in honor [TS]

00:54:37 ◼   ► of this interview and I wrote my first [TS]

00:54:39 ◼   ► Swift today in an entire extension and [TS]

00:54:42 ◼   ► overcast report was written Swift Wow a [TS]

00:54:45 ◼   ► fantastic you go up proud of you is it [TS]

00:54:47 ◼   ► is a good day [TS]

00:54:48 ◼   ► yeah and more and more will be coming [TS]

00:54:50 ◼   ► although there's a lot of jealousy there [TS]

00:54:53 ◼   ► so i probably long way away from being [TS]

00:54:55 ◼   ► all Swift yeah well that's that's okay [TS]

00:54:58 ◼   ► sweetie loves objective-c exactly the [TS]

00:55:01 ◼   ► way i look at it is that the first steps [TS]

00:55:03 ◼   ► with world domination is getting to [TS]

00:55:05 ◼   ► relevance and 24 language gets relevance [TS]

00:55:08 ◼   ► that needs a killer app killer app right [TS]

00:55:10 ◼   ► needs a reason why people would want to [TS]

00:55:12 ◼   ► use it and for swift that's clearly iOS [TS]

00:55:14 ◼   ► and mac and other Apple platform [TS]

00:55:16 ◼   ► development it seconds be open source [TS]

00:55:19 ◼   ► third it needs to go beyond right and [TS]

00:55:24 ◼   ► then the next the next step the frontier [TS]

00:55:27 ◼   ► where it makes sense to expand out to or [TS]

00:55:28 ◼   ► if you're no real time strategy game [TS]

00:55:31 ◼   ► player the the natural expansion is is a [TS]

00:55:33 ◼   ► a place where the language is where the [TS]

00:55:39 ◼   ► language actually only needs a few [TS]

00:55:41 ◼   ► things added to it to be good and so I [TS]

00:55:44 ◼   ► think switch server development is [TS]

00:55:45 ◼   ► really that next step because for [TS]

00:55:46 ◼   ► development is very similar to app [TS]

00:55:48 ◼   ► development in terms of the kinds of [TS]

00:55:49 ◼   ► code that you need to write it's very [TS]

00:55:51 ◼   ► similar terms of many of the frameworks [TS]

00:55:53 ◼   ► the major missing piece is that it needs [TS]

00:55:57 ◼   ► to run on linux and other pertinent [TS]

00:55:59 ◼   ► server development platforms in and [TS]

00:56:02 ◼   ► there's then the whole library ecosystem [TS]

00:56:05 ◼   ► that needs to be built out [TS]

00:56:06 ◼   ► and so I think that we're in right now [TS]

00:56:07 ◼   ► is we're in a really exciting phase [TS]

00:56:09 ◼   ► where those platforms are being built [TS]

00:56:12 ◼   ► those frameworks and different pieces of [TS]

00:56:15 ◼   ► infrastructure coming together and [TS]

00:56:17 ◼   ► that's that's really the idea behind [TS]

00:56:18 ◼   ► this with server working group that's an [TS]

00:56:21 ◼   ► official part of Swift org is getting [TS]

00:56:22 ◼   ► all the people working in the space to [TS]

00:56:24 ◼   ► talk to each other and i'm very excited [TS]

00:56:26 ◼   ► about that i'm going beyond that though [TS]

00:56:29 ◼   ► you know it with the goal of being more [TS]

00:56:32 ◼   ► relevant than Java for example if we're [TS]

00:56:34 ◼   ► going to pick on java is the dream of [TS]

00:56:38 ◼   ► Swift is to scale the way from scripting [TS]

00:56:41 ◼   ► language all the way down to low level [TS]

00:56:43 ◼   ► systems programming like you could write [TS]

00:56:45 ◼   ► a colonel in it or you write some [TS]

00:56:47 ◼   ► firmware on it and i think the [TS]

00:56:49 ◼   ► descripton side of it is maybe more [TS]

00:56:51 ◼   ► straightforward when when this the [TS]

00:56:54 ◼   ► community and the core team have time to [TS]

00:56:57 ◼   ► deal with it because they're talking [TS]

00:56:58 ◼   ► about in integrating regular expressions [TS]

00:57:02 ◼   ► integrating multi-line string literals [TS]

00:57:04 ◼   ► and integrating other other features [TS]

00:57:05 ◼   ► like that that people love from [TS]

00:57:07 ◼   ► scripting languages and those are big [TS]

00:57:10 ◼   ► projects but those are kind of well [TS]

00:57:13 ◼   ► known i guess and they will fit and drop [TS]

00:57:15 ◼   ► right into the existing existing system [TS]

00:57:19 ◼   ► the Swift provides systems programming [TS]

00:57:22 ◼   ► is I think the big the big next frontier [TS]

00:57:25 ◼   ► and I think that's where Swift can [TS]

00:57:27 ◼   ► really distinguish itself from java or [TS]

00:57:29 ◼   ► other other competitive languages [TS]

00:57:32 ◼   ► because among other widely used [TS]

00:57:35 ◼   ► languages out there there's really [TS]

00:57:36 ◼   ► nothing that can unseat see your C++ [TS]

00:57:38 ◼   ► there's rust for example is an [TS]

00:57:42 ◼   ► interesting language but hasn't got a [TS]

00:57:43 ◼   ► lot of adoption yet and I think the [TS]

00:57:46 ◼   ► Swift is more interesting than rust and [TS]

00:57:48 ◼   ► some of the high-level application [TS]

00:57:50 ◼   ► demands but we'll see rust is a great [TS]

00:57:53 ◼   ► language as well and so I'm really [TS]

00:57:56 ◼   ► interested to see the swift for systems [TS]

00:57:59 ◼   ► programming work get going and I think [TS]

00:58:02 ◼   ► that would be a couple years out before [TS]

00:58:04 ◼   ► it really comes together but once it [TS]

00:58:05 ◼   ► does i think the Swift can be really be [TS]

00:58:09 ◼   ► the next big thing and I'm excited about [TS]

00:58:11 ◼   ► that [TS]

00:58:11 ◼   ► so just a second back a second to the [TS]

00:58:14 ◼   ► server role of it you know possibly [TS]

00:58:16 ◼   ► taking over there like you know that i [TS]

00:58:18 ◼   ► would love like you know Here I am using [TS]

00:58:19 ◼   ► PHP and just see these these two [TS]

00:58:22 ◼   ► languages that are fairly old and I mean [TS]

00:58:24 ◼   ► PHP is way more hated than Jesse he but [TS]

00:58:27 ◼   ► but you know this is the two languages i [TS]

00:58:29 ◼   ► use for various historical and practical [TS]

00:58:32 ◼   ► reasons it on the server a lot of what [TS]

00:58:35 ◼   ► what makes a language succeed or fail on [TS]

00:58:39 ◼   ► servers and web development is not [TS]

00:58:41 ◼   ► necessarily how good of a language it is [TS]

00:58:43 ◼   ► but how how healthy and universal and [TS]

00:58:48 ◼   ► develop the framework surrounded r44 [TS]

00:58:50 ◼   ► things like web development how [TS]

00:58:52 ◼   ► practical and easy it is to deploy and [TS]

00:58:54 ◼   ► run on servers so you know Swiss being a [TS]

00:58:58 ◼   ► being its own good language that alone I [TS]

00:59:02 ◼   ► don't think is enough to get it to get [TS]

00:59:04 ◼   ► traction on the server do like do you [TS]

00:59:06 ◼   ► think is it necessary for the Swift team [TS]

00:59:10 ◼   ► like the the core group who's running [TS]

00:59:13 ◼   ► Swift whether that's Apple or the [TS]

00:59:15 ◼   ► community of contributors with apple or [TS]

00:59:17 ◼   ► whatever else is important for them to [TS]

00:59:20 ◼   ► develop and and kind of make official an [TS]

00:59:23 ◼   ► official set of server and web [TS]

00:59:25 ◼   ► frameworks and libraries and tools or do [TS]

00:59:29 ◼   ► you think it's sufficient to take the [TS]

00:59:31 ◼   ► risk to let the community do that but at [TS]

00:59:33 ◼   ► the risk of fragmentation and maybe [TS]

00:59:35 ◼   ► nothing ever taking off also less [TS]

00:59:38 ◼   ► interesting question and keep in mind [TS]

00:59:40 ◼   ► that i don't have a lot of practical [TS]

00:59:42 ◼   ► experience building server apps so this [TS]

00:59:44 ◼   ► is not missing much [TS]

00:59:45 ◼   ► my my my my opinion based on talking to [TS]

00:59:49 ◼   ► other smart people so the approach this [TS]

00:59:52 ◼   ► with projects taking is looking to [TS]

00:59:54 ◼   ► standardize what's colloquially but not [TS]

00:59:57 ◼   ► correctly known as a server foundation [TS]

00:59:57 ◼   ► correctly known as a server foundation [TS]

01:00:00 ◼   ► kind of technologies so it will not be [TS]

01:00:02 ◼   ► named for foundation but that kind of an [TS]

01:00:05 ◼   ► idea and so take the encryption the [TS]

01:00:07 ◼   ► network transport the HTTP kinds of [TS]

01:00:09 ◼   ► things that that everybody needs for [TS]

01:00:12 ◼   ► server technologies and standardized [TS]

01:00:14 ◼   ► that as part of this project but at [TS]

01:00:16 ◼   ► least in the short term not look to [TS]

01:00:18 ◼   ► standardize a specific web framework [TS]

01:00:20 ◼   ► because they're half dozen different [TS]

01:00:21 ◼   ► completely different approaches that are [TS]

01:00:24 ◼   ► interesting different different kinds of [TS]

01:00:25 ◼   ► demands and I don't think there's a [TS]

01:00:28 ◼   ► clear winner yet it's possible that [TS]

01:00:30 ◼   ► after the first few rounds shake out [TS]

01:00:32 ◼   ► there will be an equivalent you know [TS]

01:00:35 ◼   ► ruby-on-rails kind of dominant pattern [TS]

01:00:37 ◼   ► and a framework that emerges and if so [TS]

01:00:41 ◼   ► then maybe that would make sense but I [TS]

01:00:43 ◼   ► don't think it don't think Swift needs [TS]

01:00:45 ◼   ► for there to be a winner the high level [TS]

01:00:47 ◼   ► as far as what can the Swift core [TS]

01:00:51 ◼   ► language and language and compiler folks [TS]

01:00:54 ◼   ► do about this [TS]

01:00:55 ◼   ► I think there's really two things one of [TS]

01:00:57 ◼   ► which is this what package manager I [TS]

01:00:59 ◼   ► think the package manager is really key [TS]

01:01:01 ◼   ► to scaling out the ecosystem and getting [TS]

01:01:04 ◼   ► people to work together with the common [TS]

01:01:08 ◼   ► ecosystem it's also the best and i think [TS]

01:01:11 ◼   ► only way to build swift code on linux [TS]