Roderick on the Line

00:00:00 ◼   ► this episode of Roderick on the line is

00:00:01 ◼   ► sponsored by cards against humanity this

00:00:04 ◼   ► month they ask paul and storm to help me

00:00:06 ◼   ► say hi John

00:00:09 ◼   ► John break

00:00:13 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:22 ◼   ► hello hey John hi Merlin how's it going

00:00:28 ◼   ► Oh complicated oh no what happened

00:00:32 ◼   ► well complicated isn't always bad no no

00:00:36 ◼   ► what went well

00:00:37 ◼   ► well I wouldn't say it was going well

00:00:39 ◼   ► it's raining today in seattle from and

00:00:44 ◼   ► that is a good feeling that just feels

00:00:48 ◼   ► right

00:00:48 ◼   ► so I'm pleased about that but then

00:00:53 ◼   ► everything else is just a shitshow

00:00:57 ◼   ► really well no no come on now gosh you

00:01:01 ◼   ► get me you know what a guy like me and

00:01:03 ◼   ► Cena should show or two am i right

00:01:04 ◼   ► that's right it's in your first show you

00:01:08 ◼   ► know what's funny is school just ended

00:01:10 ◼   ► so so begins a summer of camps

00:01:15 ◼   ► Oh for my kid and I don't know what we

00:01:17 ◼   ► were thinking but right now she's a

00:01:18 ◼   ► track camp so she's an outdoor stadium

00:01:20 ◼   ► on a day when the stock should be a lot

00:01:24 ◼   ► of wet track track camp what it was her

00:01:27 ◼   ► event

00:01:28 ◼   ► oh you know I think it's gonna be

00:01:30 ◼   ► sitting and pounding probably the 10k

00:01:33 ◼   ► sit and pout i was super good at that

00:01:35 ◼   ► event you know what did

00:01:36 ◼   ► luckily the she's at an age where as

00:01:38 ◼   ► long as there is somebody that she knows

00:01:40 ◼   ► will be there you know that age like

00:01:42 ◼   ► we're like oh I can i can put up with

00:01:43 ◼   ► anything if my friends going to be there

00:01:45 ◼   ► yeah I figured out that the my best

00:01:48 ◼   ► event in cross country was manager

00:01:52 ◼   ► Oh manager that's the euphemistic

00:01:54 ◼   ► manager is a pick stuff up

00:01:56 ◼   ► I didn't I wasn't even really very good

00:01:58 ◼   ► at that i was a really good at standing

00:02:01 ◼   ► somewhere on there on the racecourse and

00:02:04 ◼   ► when everyone my friends ran by going

00:02:08 ◼   ► pick it up

00:02:10 ◼   ► good effort well that's good you'll get

00:02:13 ◼   ► coaching coaching training you're in

00:02:14 ◼   ► you're there to get people notes on

00:02:15 ◼   ► their forum i didn't know enough about

00:02:18 ◼   ► any of the sport to have be able to

00:02:21 ◼   ► comment on their forum i could just say

00:02:23 ◼   ► you know pick it up and that power

00:02:26 ◼   ► through who I mean I just wanted friends

00:02:30 ◼   ► yeah and I was bad

00:02:33 ◼   ► at making friends and having friends and

00:02:36 ◼   ► also bad at running or prosperity skiing

00:02:38 ◼   ► listen now hope you don't mind if I just

00:02:40 ◼   ► give you a note

00:02:42 ◼   ► you know as a manager here have you

00:02:43 ◼   ► tried running faster

00:02:45 ◼   ► the thing is they could all run faster

00:02:48 ◼   ► than me so that there was no reason any

00:02:51 ◼   ► of them would listen to you know what it

00:02:53 ◼   ► was was my girl that I liked ran

00:02:55 ◼   ► cross-country no man and so I just

00:03:01 ◼   ► wanted to be around her and so I ran

00:03:03 ◼   ► cross-country but you know I have this

00:03:04 ◼   ► habit of like stopping in the middle of

00:03:08 ◼   ► the race and like climbing a treating

00:03:10 ◼   ► retrieve a bird's nest or I just like

00:03:14 ◼   ► often losing the course somebody because

00:03:16 ◼   ► I was all alone losing the path and then

00:03:20 ◼   ► either running twice as far as everyone

00:03:23 ◼   ► else or like running onto it running up

00:03:25 ◼   ► like across the golf course or more

00:03:28 ◼   ► creative about it

00:03:29 ◼   ► yeah I was not I was not a I was not

00:03:33 ◼   ► purposeful so in the end it was agreed

00:03:36 ◼   ► sort of mutually agreed by everybody

00:03:38 ◼   ► that if I was gonna stick around that I

00:03:40 ◼   ► should probably just be the assistant

00:03:41 ◼   ► manager and and that works great for me

00:03:45 ◼   ► I mean I'm as you know I am made to

00:03:49 ◼   ► assistant manage so there's something I

00:03:53 ◼   ► don't know III in retrospect that I find

00:03:55 ◼   ► so frustrating it seems like there's an

00:03:57 ◼   ► elephant in the room at least when we

00:03:58 ◼   ► were coming up that your there's a

00:04:01 ◼   ► little athlete inside of each person it

00:04:04 ◼   ► just needs to be yelled out you know

00:04:07 ◼   ► that your dad certain my dad certainly

00:04:09 ◼   ► followed that prescription BMOC my dad

00:04:13 ◼   ► would stand on the side of the court

00:04:15 ◼   ► basketball court when I was in fifth

00:04:17 ◼   ► grade fifth a picture of 5th grader a

00:04:20 ◼   ► 5th grade my dad is there at the games

00:04:22 ◼   ► he's screaming at the ref you're missing

00:04:26 ◼   ► a good game here wrap that was a foul

00:04:29 ◼   ► the fact rough you know and it was just

00:04:33 ◼   ► like I would have rather been anywhere i

00:04:37 ◼   ► read an article about this a couple

00:04:39 ◼   ► weeks ago and I saw so much myself in

00:04:41 ◼   ► this article and I think it might have

00:04:42 ◼   ► been written by like a veteran like

00:04:44 ◼   ► coach but the person was like you know

00:04:46 ◼   ► you know what you should do your kids

00:04:48 ◼   ► events just sit there you just don't you

00:04:51 ◼   ► don't you don't need to yell anything at

00:04:53 ◼   ► anybody don't even really need to yell

00:04:54 ◼   ► at them and like the thing is you're

00:04:56 ◼   ► embarrassing everyone you're making

00:04:58 ◼   ► everybody looks so bad

00:05:00 ◼   ► nobody thinks you look cool when you

00:05:02 ◼   ► yell encouragement at your kid or or you

00:05:04 ◼   ► know or insults well you know there's a

00:05:07 ◼   ► picture of my dad taken in probably 1928

00:05:12 ◼   ► a maybe maybe 29 and he's standing on on

00:05:19 ◼   ► a beach in in those kind of ankle high

00:05:23 ◼   ► leather boots that you needed a special

00:05:25 ◼   ► tool to lace i'm not sure i don't i

00:05:28 ◼   ► don't know that much about early 20th

00:05:30 ◼   ► century foot footwear but he's got

00:05:33 ◼   ► boxing gloves on and he's standing on

00:05:37 ◼   ► the beach in like full-on come at me he

00:05:42 ◼   ► said would you like five know he's nine

00:05:44 ◼   ► who full-on you know I come at me boxing

00:05:49 ◼   ► pose and the prospect

00:05:53 ◼   ► I mean it the last time I'd like to know

00:05:56 ◼   ► the last time in America a nine-year-old

00:05:59 ◼   ► was given boxing lessons like I'm sure

00:06:03 ◼   ► that they're it still happens i'm sure

00:06:05 ◼   ► they're not they're definitely tons and

00:06:07 ◼   ► tons and tons of nine-year-olds taking

00:06:09 ◼   ► taekwondo but but i think there are

00:06:14 ◼   ► there are a lot fewer nine-year-olds

00:06:16 ◼   ► like lacing up in boxing gloves and just

00:06:20 ◼   ► having a go at each other than they were

00:06:22 ◼   ► in 1929 and so I forgive my dad for all

00:06:25 ◼   ► all of that stuff because he couldn't

00:06:28 ◼   ► possibly know that yelling at the ref

00:06:31 ◼   ► wasn't helping right he imagined that

00:06:34 ◼   ► yelling at the ref was as integral part

00:06:36 ◼   ► of the game as at as any of the shooting

00:06:39 ◼   ► or coaching and it's why my dad and I'm

00:06:44 ◼   ► not kidding

00:06:45 ◼   ► so when I was a kid of course nobody

00:06:48 ◼   ► nobody ever nobody knew what to do with

00:06:53 ◼   ► dads like that or they are they that

00:06:55 ◼   ► everybody just assumed to it made sense

00:06:57 ◼   ► just like

00:06:58 ◼   ► smoking on airplanes but by the time my

00:07:02 ◼   ► dad was a grandfather to my older

00:07:06 ◼   ► brothers and sisters kids he actually

00:07:09 ◼   ► was banned from attending his grandson

00:07:13 ◼   ► soccer games

00:07:14 ◼   ► you're kidding for yelling at the coach

00:07:17 ◼   ► and he he was incredulous and he thought

00:07:22 ◼   ► it was a conspiracy of like these new

00:07:26 ◼   ► parents who didn't understand how you

00:07:28 ◼   ► know that this new generation by which

00:07:30 ◼   ► he meant the baby boomers who had gone

00:07:34 ◼   ► soft and didn't know you know and we're

00:07:36 ◼   ► like getting there would old feelings

00:07:38 ◼   ► hurt because he's standing on the

00:07:41 ◼   ► sidelines at a seven-year-old soccer

00:07:43 ◼   ► game like Yellin Yellin foul or or you

00:07:48 ◼   ► know just yelling at the coach yawn at

00:07:51 ◼   ► the opposite coach and and a he you know

00:07:56 ◼   ► there wasn't a he wasn't he wasn't mean

00:07:59 ◼   ► about it or angry he was just that was

00:08:01 ◼   ► the that's what you did how you played

00:08:03 ◼   ► games i think it's I think it's I think

00:08:06 ◼   ► you're right it's a generational thing

00:08:07 ◼   ► yeah so I never I mean when I was ten I

00:08:10 ◼   ► would have I i was a mortified but you

00:08:15 ◼   ► know what I got and what I got to be 20

00:08:17 ◼   ► I yelled at him about it a lot but by

00:08:18 ◼   ► the time I was 30 I was like oh right he

00:08:20 ◼   ► when he was nine people were punching

00:08:24 ◼   ► him in the face and he was being of his

00:08:27 ◼   ► father would sometimes put him in her in

00:08:30 ◼   ► an ice-cold bathtub a bathtub full of

00:08:33 ◼   ► ice water to toughen his spirit god

00:08:38 ◼   ► so you know like i can't i can't be mad

00:08:41 ◼   ► at him but boy did I not want him

00:08:44 ◼   ► yelling at my stupid basketball games

00:08:46 ◼   ► about which I cared not right right

00:08:49 ◼   ► right like whether we won or lost you

00:08:51 ◼   ► i'm I i was just like your daughter I

00:08:54 ◼   ► just was there because I wanted to be

00:08:55 ◼   ► with my friends and honestly like

00:09:00 ◼   ► running up and down and throwing balls

00:09:02 ◼   ► at each other was not was the worst

00:09:04 ◼   ► possible solution to the fret how to be

00:09:08 ◼   ► with friends problem there

00:09:09 ◼   ► they're simpler ways that don't require

00:09:11 ◼   ► shorts

00:09:11 ◼   ► you know so many but I put a after our

00:09:15 ◼   ► last episode I was reflecting on this a

00:09:16 ◼   ► lot like what did what did I want to do

00:09:20 ◼   ► what what I have been pleased to do you

00:09:24 ◼   ► know I don't think about it too

00:09:25 ◼   ► I don't know what I would have been

00:09:26 ◼   ► pleased to do and would you have known

00:09:28 ◼   ► would you have to use a sports analogy

00:09:29 ◼   ► like would you have known if the right

00:09:32 ◼   ► pitch was coming to you would you even

00:09:33 ◼   ► would you even know if it was something

00:09:35 ◼   ► when you're at that age where they're

00:09:36 ◼   ► calling you an asshole in school would

00:09:38 ◼   ► you even have known like how I this this

00:09:41 ◼   ► this this week went really well because

00:09:43 ◼   ► these like three things happen to put me

00:09:45 ◼   ► on my past

00:09:46 ◼   ► yeah right i mean chess club know a lord

00:09:51 ◼   ► of the rings club not even really there

00:09:53 ◼   ► I want to kill John to kill I'm sorry I

00:09:56 ◼   ► wanted the Lord of the Rings guild and

00:09:58 ◼   ► we had very passionate feelings about

00:10:00 ◼   ► the dune guild that sat on the other

00:10:01 ◼   ► side of french class but we need the

00:10:04 ◼   ► spice but we did not but that didn't

00:10:07 ◼   ► give me a better give me that much

00:10:09 ◼   ► relief if I if I if I reflect back into

00:10:15 ◼   ► my daydreams in seventh grade what I was

00:10:18 ◼   ► really hoping was that the Soviet Union

00:10:20 ◼   ► would invade you can only be called into

00:10:23 ◼   ► action all of your expertise on

00:10:25 ◼   ► airplanes and military procedures that

00:10:28 ◼   ► you would be you would be it would be a

00:10:29 ◼   ► little bit like ender's game like you

00:10:31 ◼   ► would be a savant there be like we need

00:10:32 ◼   ► to train this kid he's right he's got

00:10:34 ◼   ► his he literally has his own flight suit

00:10:36 ◼   ► yeah do you remember what you remember

00:10:37 ◼   ► the pavement a song we are underused yes

00:10:44 ◼   ► that's my best impression of his singing

00:10:47 ◼   ► we are underused it's really carried a

00:10:53 ◼   ► really weird church i think that being a

00:10:56 ◼   ► payment fan in the nineties was being in

00:10:58 ◼   ► a weird church the first time i heard

00:11:04 ◼   ► that song hyper first into tears

00:11:06 ◼   ► oh god the idea that we are underused

00:11:10 ◼   ► and and the and the implication that

00:11:15 ◼   ► there is that that the you you you will

00:11:19 ◼   ► never find a use for yourself really a

00:11:21 ◼   ► proper like full use of yourself

00:11:24 ◼   ► honey I'm surprised and your catch and

00:11:27 ◼   ► we're a perfect match like together

00:11:29 ◼   ► strangers up Jesus that's still let's

00:11:33 ◼   ► look at me shivers right i mean that he

00:11:35 ◼   ► was firing on all cylinders at that

00:11:36 ◼   ► point but but that I mean that was such

00:11:38 ◼   ► a what we took away from that at the

00:11:40 ◼   ► time was the the world losers or

00:11:42 ◼   ► whatever but but but somehow when I see

00:11:46 ◼   ► people in the world who are perfectly

00:11:48 ◼   ► utilized oh yes it's I'm very seldom

00:11:53 ◼   ► impressed either by the person or by the

00:11:56 ◼   ► use that they have found for themselves

00:11:58 ◼   ► right or the used to like the kids like

00:12:01 ◼   ► I remember being insanely jealous of a

00:12:04 ◼   ► kid from Japan who is younger than me

00:12:06 ◼   ► who had the highest IQ in the world and

00:12:09 ◼   ► I remember thinking like there's got to

00:12:10 ◼   ► be some kind of jam up here like how did

00:12:12 ◼   ► this guy get the high-iq you always get

00:12:13 ◼   ► the same as anything involving against

00:12:15 ◼   ► aged parents

00:12:16 ◼   ► we're like that kid really want to be

00:12:18 ◼   ► out there tap dancing right now well

00:12:19 ◼   ► that's the thing where is that kid with

00:12:21 ◼   ► the hot who had the highest IQ in 1982

00:12:23 ◼   ► I'm going doubt busy now right

00:12:26 ◼   ► I mean that's what's so wonderful about

00:12:27 ◼   ► knowing ken jennings because ken is one

00:12:30 ◼   ► of these people that that performed on a

00:12:34 ◼   ► on a worldwide stage in a way equivalent

00:12:37 ◼   ► to Marilyn Vos savant where it's just

00:12:40 ◼   ► like oh look at this

00:12:42 ◼   ► he is literally the smartest guy in the

00:12:44 ◼   ► world because he won this game 70 @ + x

00:12:48 ◼   ► and then you meet him and you're like he

00:12:50 ◼   ► is he is genuinely like super bright and

00:12:53 ◼   ► super good as he seems fast he's pleased

00:12:57 ◼   ► very fast he's and the thing is the

00:12:59 ◼   ► thing that you would never suspect about

00:13:01 ◼   ► him even though he is a total nerd is

00:13:03 ◼   ► that he has a pee has an extensive

00:13:06 ◼   ► knowledge like yours like a knowledge

00:13:08 ◼   ► across every you cannot make an inside

00:13:11 ◼   ► indie rock reference that he won't get

00:13:14 ◼   ► no hitting now that surprises me

00:13:16 ◼   ► it's amazing right and it and and you

00:13:18 ◼   ► cannot make like an inside reference

00:13:22 ◼   ► really too very much that can won't not

00:13:26 ◼   ► just get but also like turn into a pun

00:13:30 ◼   ► and I frustration demonstrate that was

00:13:34 ◼   ► the day when i first met John Nelson the

00:13:35 ◼   ► same experience of just like oh he gets

00:13:37 ◼   ► everything and it's great but you know

00:13:40 ◼   ► but then being friends with him

00:13:42 ◼   ► you realize like and and being the

00:13:44 ◼   ► smartest the hip being the world's

00:13:45 ◼   ► smartest boy and not being in this

00:13:47 ◼   ► matching pumpkins ken jennings wow nice

00:13:51 ◼   ► call just now try you know name is

00:13:55 ◼   ► William he's made can is making a living

00:13:58 ◼   ► writing books and books of trivia and

00:14:01 ◼   ► and funny books and so forth but like

00:14:03 ◼   ► that there wasn't he was not they didn't

00:14:07 ◼   ► put him up on a litter and carry him up

00:14:09 ◼   ► and Princess Leia gave him a metal and

00:14:12 ◼   ► then his problems were solved right he's

00:14:14 ◼   ► he is still under utilized right and and

00:14:18 ◼   ► it's a it's fascinating to think you

00:14:21 ◼   ► know what if you would if you want him

00:14:23 ◼   ► up but what if he would've would've

00:14:24 ◼   ► DARPA came and gave ken jennings own

00:14:27 ◼   ► office

00:14:28 ◼   ► you know I had I'm so sympathetic

00:14:31 ◼   ► because this is this is gonna be mom

00:14:34 ◼   ► makes me such a loser because I'm a

00:14:35 ◼   ► loser but you know it's like that

00:14:36 ◼   ► feeling when you're younger and you're

00:14:38 ◼   ► like there's got to be something that I

00:14:40 ◼   ► would be so great at like I know like

00:14:42 ◼   ► you look at somebody was like okay

00:14:43 ◼   ► you're tall you can run fast and you

00:14:46 ◼   ► don't freak out on a team

00:14:47 ◼   ► well obviously you're going to be a

00:14:48 ◼   ► basketball player like there's such a

00:14:50 ◼   ► path for you if you choose to take it

00:14:52 ◼   ► you may not choose to take it but there

00:14:53 ◼   ► is a job

00:14:54 ◼   ► anybody with this kind of freakish

00:14:57 ◼   ► combination of skills could have and I'm

00:14:58 ◼   ► like I've got so many freaking

00:15:00 ◼   ► combinations of skills I've just never

00:15:01 ◼   ► found the CIA job for me I know it's

00:15:04 ◼   ► gotta be out there said I'm an analyst

00:15:06 ◼   ► for something I just don't know what yet

00:15:07 ◼   ► haha well so two things i was reading in

00:15:11 ◼   ► the newspaper today an article about

00:15:13 ◼   ► General Wesley Clark and he was the

00:15:17 ◼   ► general of the army and then ran for

00:15:20 ◼   ► president in 2004 out or you know like

00:15:23 ◼   ► trying to get the Democratic nomination

00:15:25 ◼   ► and lost and since that time he has been

00:15:27 ◼   ► basically he will join the board of

00:15:31 ◼   ► directors of any penny stock company at

00:15:35 ◼   ► if you pay him enough and so he's got

00:15:38 ◼   ► some record where he was he's been on

00:15:40 ◼   ► the board of 18 companies and 16 of them

00:15:42 ◼   ► have gone bankrupt and and it's just

00:15:47 ◼   ► like really like he was valedictorian at

00:15:49 ◼   ► West Point's

00:15:51 ◼   ► and a Rhodes Scholar and you know a

00:15:54 ◼   ► four-star general and that and this is

00:15:57 ◼   ► this give me a cold chill to realize

00:15:59 ◼   ► that it at 60 years old he was like well

00:16:01 ◼   ► maybe I'll just maybe I'll just be a

00:16:05 ◼   ► fraud now for a while making money could

00:16:07 ◼   ► be on the board of a place called

00:16:08 ◼   ► grilled cheese truck grilled cheese

00:16:10 ◼   ► truck think we'd love it if you joined

00:16:12 ◼   ► us with the investment the silver-haired

00:16:13 ◼   ► Clark 70 says in a promotional video

00:16:15 ◼   ► company called the grilled cheese truck

00:16:17 ◼   ► picture standing in front of a statue of

00:16:19 ◼   ► bald eagle and replica Oval Office we're

00:16:21 ◼   ► gonna be one of the fastest growing

00:16:22 ◼   ► companies in America salutes losing

00:16:26 ◼   ► money hasn't signed any veterans

00:16:28 ◼   ► franchisees oh my god there is i mean

00:16:32 ◼   ► you know literally almost a retired

00:16:36 ◼   ► director of the CIA it's here it's

00:16:38 ◼   ► almost your dream job he could be your

00:16:39 ◼   ► dream cautionary tale

00:16:40 ◼   ► yeah exactly don't panic lettuce John

00:16:42 ◼   ► lot of money and hydroponic lettuce so

00:16:44 ◼   ► the tell you what that is a booming

00:16:46 ◼   ► industry people like fresh food Maryland

00:16:48 ◼   ► is it you know it's getting harder and

00:16:49 ◼   ► harder

00:16:50 ◼   ► you can't get enough fresh food in this

00:16:51 ◼   ► country huh but the thing that occurred

00:16:54 ◼   ► to me the other day we have now crossed

00:16:56 ◼   ► a hundred and fifty episodes of our

00:16:59 ◼   ► program and it's not it's not fair to

00:17:02 ◼   ► say that the program has become self

00:17:04 ◼   ► aware because it was always pretty

00:17:06 ◼   ► self-aware it's not artificially

00:17:08 ◼   ► intelligent it naturally intelligent but

00:17:10 ◼   ► two things occurred to me one

00:17:13 ◼   ► I believe we have we've crossed the

00:17:17 ◼   ► threshold where it is pop it is

00:17:19 ◼   ► plausible that someone will be listening

00:17:23 ◼   ► to this program after you and I have

00:17:26 ◼   ► died

00:17:26 ◼   ► how did little early for that

00:17:29 ◼   ► well this is what I'm saying like yeah

00:17:31 ◼   ► it may not be maybe we have a legacy

00:17:33 ◼   ► whether we like it or not it probably

00:17:35 ◼   ► will not be my grandkids because they

00:17:38 ◼   ► are not going to give a shit but

00:17:40 ◼   ► somebody simulated space pod cast will

00:17:43 ◼   ► be that's right they'll be who

00:17:44 ◼   ► well you know what they'll probably

00:17:46 ◼   ► listening to banjo musical would have

00:17:48 ◼   ► come back around but but you know some

00:17:51 ◼   ► researchers some college nerd some

00:17:53 ◼   ► somebody at that it at the you know

00:17:56 ◼   ► because even though it feels to us like

00:17:58 ◼   ► there are millions and millions of

00:18:00 ◼   ► podcast too many podcasts in fact it's

00:18:02 ◼   ► still very early

00:18:04 ◼   ► days we are one of the early ones that

00:18:06 ◼   ► have achieved a lot of episodes so so so

00:18:11 ◼   ► that so imagining that and imagining

00:18:13 ◼   ► that in fact this conversation that

00:18:15 ◼   ► we're having right now will one day be

00:18:17 ◼   ► listened to by someone after we're dead

00:18:19 ◼   ► and they will think to themselves that

00:18:21 ◼   ► is me that they're talking about me

00:18:24 ◼   ► future person gave me pause but then I

00:18:31 ◼   ► realized that we early podcasters are

00:18:35 ◼   ► ideal candidates for a colonization by

00:18:41 ◼   ► AI developers because if you are

00:18:46 ◼   ► developing an artificial intelligence

00:18:48 ◼   ► and you want that AI to be some

00:18:51 ◼   ► interactive and human all you gotta feed

00:18:55 ◼   ► it lots of existing information to have

00:18:57 ◼   ► a kind of bone up on the culture exactly

00:18:59 ◼   ► like engine i get a lot of Broadcasters

00:19:01 ◼   ► wonderfully 757 is a lot of episodes too

00:19:04 ◼   ► and that's that's a lot for any added

00:19:05 ◼   ► gobble down

00:19:06 ◼   ► well the thing is a I you know using a

00:19:08 ◼   ► using planks theorem

00:19:11 ◼   ► yeah yes right and Bernoulli's principle

00:19:12 ◼   ► and i will be able to just download that

00:19:15 ◼   ► stuff just straight the Ultron got

00:19:16 ◼   ► everything in like 10 seconds see

00:19:18 ◼   ► exactly so so you know a lot of

00:19:21 ◼   ► Broadcasters out there have a lot more

00:19:22 ◼   ► hours of talking on the air than we do

00:19:24 ◼   ► but most of that is asking interview

00:19:26 ◼   ► questions or in garrison killer is just

00:19:29 ◼   ► reading some bullshit stories about fake

00:19:31 ◼   ► people

00:19:33 ◼   ► ah of podcasters who are talking about

00:19:37 ◼   ► to talking to one another about each

00:19:39 ◼   ► other and themselves are this link very

00:19:43 ◼   ► right data set in so many ways because

00:19:47 ◼   ► you get the obviously you get unless

00:19:48 ◼   ► let's be honest this is a nutritionally

00:19:50 ◼   ► rich program there's a lot of food for

00:19:52 ◼   ► thought here but there's also going to

00:19:54 ◼   ► learn about cadences you're gonna learn

00:19:55 ◼   ► about all kinds of stuff about sentence

00:19:57 ◼   ► structure you can learn with weird

00:19:59 ◼   ► phrases like that everybody's using like

00:20:00 ◼   ► that technology like where that started

00:20:02 ◼   ► that's right and exactly so that means

00:20:04 ◼   ► of Technology come on that's going to be

00:20:06 ◼   ► them

00:20:07 ◼   ► I mean think about the company that that

00:20:09 ◼   ► is called thought technology registered

00:20:12 ◼   ► trademark at you and I should yes well

00:20:15 ◼   ► anyway

00:20:17 ◼   ► we'll talk to lawyers after we get our

00:20:19 ◼   ► grilled cheese truck off the ground

00:20:21 ◼   ► hydroponic grilled cheese start of God

00:20:23 ◼   ► technology registered trademark but yeah

00:20:26 ◼   ► exactly like like we because we have

00:20:29 ◼   ► never had a guest on this program

00:20:31 ◼   ► what is the primary way that two people

00:20:33 ◼   ► interact right it's conversation and the

00:20:35 ◼   ► and the cadences the back-and-forth the

00:20:37 ◼   ► fact that you know knowing when to when

00:20:40 ◼   ► to zig and zag so like all of a sudden I

00:20:44 ◼   ► got this weird feeling that it might not

00:20:46 ◼   ► just be that someone in the future is

00:20:48 ◼   ► listening to our podcast after we're

00:20:51 ◼   ► dead but in fact that we may become

00:20:53 ◼   ► prototype AI personalities the the front

00:21:01 ◼   ► faces because right once you once you

00:21:03 ◼   ► develop that technology and it's working

00:21:05 ◼   ► you're going to be starved for enough

00:21:09 ◼   ► data to construct a full personality

00:21:11 ◼   ► right and you're never gonna have enough

00:21:14 ◼   ► of them

00:21:15 ◼   ► you're never going to get along at all

00:21:18 ◼   ► because you don't want to feed them all

00:21:20 ◼   ► encyclopedias and they're not going to

00:21:21 ◼   ► be that they're not gonna be the same

00:21:22 ◼   ► you're gonna want obviously most people

00:21:25 ◼   ► are going to want scarlett johansson em

00:21:28 ◼   ► but there are gonna be people who want

00:21:30 ◼   ► you know uh may I friend who is a

00:21:34 ◼   ► middle-aged um candidate for sending out

00:21:38 ◼   ► a middle-aged guy who's to just just

00:21:40 ◼   ► trying to figure stuff out

00:21:42 ◼   ► so you're saying like it could even be

00:21:43 ◼   ► 15-20 years you might be somebody

00:21:44 ◼   ► samsung phone

00:21:45 ◼   ► yeah right rightly so that means to

00:21:47 ◼   ► start yeah right and and the the big

00:21:51 ◼   ► question is will we have any control

00:21:52 ◼   ► over that

00:21:53 ◼   ► or will it just be one day you know

00:21:55 ◼   ► they-they-they pitch my voice up a two

00:21:58 ◼   ► clicks and they you know they put a

00:22:00 ◼   ► flanger on you there like right now it's

00:22:03 ◼   ► got nothing to do with those guys that's

00:22:05 ◼   ► a that's the day I we've been working on

00:22:07 ◼   ► oh I see what you're saying it's a

00:22:08 ◼   ► banksy kind of thing you taking you turn

00:22:09 ◼   ► it to make a little bit different and

00:22:11 ◼   ► now you've transformative art right you

00:22:14 ◼   ► take it you turn

00:22:15 ◼   ► uh-huh that's a thought like that is

00:22:17 ◼   ► that you know what that's the motto of

00:22:18 ◼   ► thought technology I think you take it

00:22:21 ◼   ► you're taken in turn a boy and suddenly

00:22:25 ◼   ► this feels like a lot more

00:22:26 ◼   ► responsibility

00:22:27 ◼   ► I feel like I mean I want to be myself

00:22:28 ◼   ► because I want my AI

00:22:30 ◼   ► to be you know cohesive but I feel like

00:22:32 ◼   ► maybe I should be on the dick jokes

00:22:33 ◼   ► well but that may be that you mean

00:22:36 ◼   ► you're scrolling through a list of

00:22:38 ◼   ► services to 10,000 possible AI friends

00:22:40 ◼   ► and it's like you know middle-aged guy

00:22:44 ◼   ► middle-aged guy middle-aged guy all

00:22:46 ◼   ► middle-aged guy with some dick jokes for

00:22:47 ◼   ► that seems like a good friend for me to

00:22:49 ◼   ► play flanger on that middle-aged guy

00:22:52 ◼   ► from Ohio spend a lot of time in florida

00:22:54 ◼   ► make some dick jokes sometimes hard to

00:22:57 ◼   ► parse exactly what he means well I'm

00:23:01 ◼   ► gonna try it i'm gonna try it on

00:23:03 ◼   ► click yet you know it's possible who the

00:23:08 ◼   ► the problem the problem the problem of

00:23:10 ◼   ► you know the problem of self-awareness

00:23:15 ◼   ► both that our podcast has become

00:23:16 ◼   ► self-aware and also that you and I have

00:23:19 ◼   ► too much self-awareness is that

00:23:22 ◼   ► especially in my current in my current

00:23:26 ◼   ► pursuits self-awareness we've talked

00:23:30 ◼   ► about this for years is a major

00:23:32 ◼   ► disadvantage

00:23:34 ◼   ► you know i think the number one reason

00:23:37 ◼   ► that Hitler was so successful is he had

00:23:39 ◼   ► no self-awareness and it was only that

00:23:42 ◼   ► he and and then it ended up being his

00:23:44 ◼   ► downfall his lack of self-awareness out

00:23:48 ◼   ► but for 10 years they're really served

00:23:50 ◼   ► him well let's talk my daughter about

00:23:52 ◼   ► this yesterday you're talking to your

00:23:54 ◼   ► daughter yesterday about Hitler

00:23:56 ◼   ► self-awareness well yeah pretty much

00:23:57 ◼   ► just talking about like you know you

00:24:01 ◼   ► mean I mean Justin I'm sorry is this a

00:24:02 ◼   ► fact but I mean you know you know think

00:24:05 ◼   ► how much better he would have done this

00:24:07 ◼   ► is a whole show so I should even

00:24:08 ◼   ► introduced this but think how much

00:24:10 ◼   ► better that I would have done if he

00:24:11 ◼   ► hadn't tried to go into Russia think how

00:24:13 ◼   ► different that game would have been he

00:24:15 ◼   ► could he could have held his own pretty

00:24:17 ◼   ► damn good against everybody if he if

00:24:19 ◼   ► he'd been a little more software and

00:24:21 ◼   ► said you know what this is good for now

00:24:22 ◼   ► let's let's rest for a couple years

00:24:24 ◼   ► let's build things up a little bit but

00:24:25 ◼   ► wasn't that huge wasn't a huge problem

00:24:27 ◼   ► was that he was like all just want to

00:24:28 ◼   ► know just sense of dudes over there and

00:24:30 ◼   ► walk walk into the tundra and it will be

00:24:32 ◼   ► good if he had stopped in Czechoslovakia

00:24:34 ◼   ► we'd be living in a different world and

00:24:38 ◼   ► you know it's it's it's terrible to say

00:24:40 ◼   ► it it's terrible to say like you know

00:24:42 ◼   ► all these people want to

00:24:43 ◼   ► back in time and kill Hitler it's a very

00:24:46 ◼   ► small minority of people that want to go

00:24:48 ◼   ► back in time and advised him to just be

00:24:50 ◼   ► satisfied with prague should never have

00:24:55 ◼   ► invaded Poland that was that was and

00:24:56 ◼   ► then Russia come on the other thing what

00:24:59 ◼   ► you're saying no talking about your

00:25:00 ◼   ► current pursuits I it's it's interesting

00:25:03 ◼   ► to think about somebody who is really

00:25:05 ◼   ► good at sounding informal and off the

00:25:10 ◼   ► cuff and not done self-aware but not

00:25:13 ◼   ► sounding because here's ok what's the

00:25:14 ◼   ► worst the worst is that you start

00:25:16 ◼   ► thinking about what you're going to say

00:25:18 ◼   ► you think about it too much and you

00:25:19 ◼   ► think about how it's going to sound and

00:25:20 ◼   ► I selling a weasel you have to be it

00:25:22 ◼   ► seems to me like you have to be able to

00:25:24 ◼   ► whether it's just your bullet points or

00:25:26 ◼   ► whatever but with growing sophistication

00:25:27 ◼   ► as a candidate it seems like you've got

00:25:29 ◼   ► to get fast at sounding natural without

00:25:32 ◼   ► sounding like you're trying to sound

00:25:33 ◼   ► natural

00:25:34 ◼   ► well yeah and the problem is that i

00:25:36 ◼   ► already sound natural but that isn't

00:25:39 ◼   ► really what people want they want you to

00:25:42 ◼   ► sound natural but not really

00:25:46 ◼   ► this is my stand-up comedy so daunting

00:25:48 ◼   ► to me when i watch me as a stand-up

00:25:50 ◼   ► comedy is something I'm I enjoy a lot

00:25:52 ◼   ► when it's done well but i find it really

00:25:55 ◼   ► scary because if you think about what's

00:25:57 ◼   ► involved in coming up with those bits

00:25:59 ◼   ► and refining them and listening to the

00:26:01 ◼   ► tapes and getting to where you know

00:26:02 ◼   ► whatever it was Louis CK can come out

00:26:04 ◼   ► and make a joke that sounds like he he

00:26:06 ◼   ► just said something accidentally and

00:26:08 ◼   ► then make a joke about how he said it

00:26:09 ◼   ► accidentally but that's all part of the

00:26:11 ◼   ► bit and how do you do that without

00:26:12 ◼   ► sounding like you're reading off sheet

00:26:13 ◼   ► like that takes a tremendous amount of

00:26:15 ◼   ► self-awareness yeah the more you do it

00:26:17 ◼   ► the less you hope you sound like

00:26:19 ◼   ► yourself aware that you're doing a bit

00:26:20 ◼   ► of Europe

00:26:21 ◼   ► well this is the this is the back to the

00:26:23 ◼   ► underused question like a none of that

00:26:26 ◼   ► appeals to me and I don't know whether

00:26:30 ◼   ► the fact that i don't know whether and

00:26:32 ◼   ► and i suspect that this is true when you

00:26:35 ◼   ► talk to stand-up comics like you polish

00:26:40 ◼   ► Tompkins and I had kind of a fight one

00:26:42 ◼   ► time not a fight but like a you know a a

00:26:46 ◼   ► it wasn't it wasn't like friendly Sparky

00:26:49 ◼   ► you guys had a real fight I don't think

00:26:50 ◼   ► we have five targets around anymore

00:26:52 ◼   ► no no no calls it also because you know

00:26:54 ◼   ► he and I are the same parents

00:26:56 ◼   ► this isn't in your pocket he's a big guy

00:26:58 ◼   ► compared to say the a like 50 the mouse

00:27:04 ◼   ► that's true that's the point

00:27:05 ◼   ► yeah but uh but i think i think what he

00:27:08 ◼   ► was trying to say in the in our in our

00:27:12 ◼   ► like a minor disagreement was that he

00:27:16 ◼   ► didn't like that either

00:27:19 ◼   ► I you know that being a stand-up comic

00:27:22 ◼   ► it is not dependent on liking it you do

00:27:27 ◼   ► it anyway right you don't let the craft

00:27:29 ◼   ► yeah and this is the thing about

00:27:31 ◼   ► everything right you don't it's very

00:27:33 ◼   ► it's like if you are seven and a half

00:27:35 ◼   ► feet tall and and have big lungs and a

00:27:41 ◼   ► big heart you have a job waiting for you

00:27:44 ◼   ► in basketball but it doesn't necessarily

00:27:45 ◼   ► mean that you liked it and I wonder how

00:27:51 ◼   ► many of us have spent our lives being

00:27:56 ◼   ► confused that we don't seem to like the

00:28:00 ◼   ► the things that were either natural at

00:28:03 ◼   ► or the things that were pushed into I

00:28:05 ◼   ► think it's huge and at and then you know

00:28:08 ◼   ► and what when you when you think about

00:28:10 ◼   ► people that are a success at that stuff

00:28:12 ◼   ► I think it's probably a small proportion

00:28:15 ◼   ► of them that are that genuinely would

00:28:17 ◼   ► say like from the moment I started I

00:28:19 ◼   ► knew that you know not just that i knew

00:28:21 ◼   ► that i wanted it but that I liked it

00:28:24 ◼   ► you know I I wanted to be a stand-up

00:28:27 ◼   ► comic i knew that i wanted to but the

00:28:30 ◼   ► prospect of listening to myself be a bad

00:28:33 ◼   ► stand-up comic on a tape in order to get

00:28:36 ◼   ► better at being a stand-up comic

00:28:37 ◼   ► you might as well just put pour salt in

00:28:39 ◼   ► my eyes

00:28:41 ◼   ► yeah it a part of it also is that you

00:28:45 ◼   ► know there's I think that people

00:28:46 ◼   ► concatenate too many different aspects

00:28:50 ◼   ► of a career or whatever you call job and

00:28:52 ◼   ► interest in education

00:28:54 ◼   ► well like I always think it's important

00:28:55 ◼   ► to distinguish between things like what

00:28:57 ◼   ► is you want to do what it is you want to

00:28:59 ◼   ► be what it is you like doing like how do

00:29:02 ◼   ► you like spending your time and what do

00:29:04 ◼   ► you like having made

00:29:05 ◼   ► and I don't think there's that many

00:29:07 ◼   ► people were all those always line up all

00:29:09 ◼   ► the time and that's what throws people

00:29:11 ◼   ► off with a let's say you wanted to be I

00:29:12 ◼   ► mean dick for a lot of stand-up comics

00:29:14 ◼   ► that originally went to be a basketball

00:29:15 ◼   ► player right but like you don't have the

00:29:17 ◼   ► height you don't have the hands you

00:29:18 ◼   ► don't have the lungs you don't you know

00:29:20 ◼   ► but you find that there's this thing

00:29:21 ◼   ► that you kind of can do or you find

00:29:23 ◼   ► yourself sort of falling into I think

00:29:25 ◼   ► that's true for so many jobs

00:29:27 ◼   ► yeah and but you know I think the thing

00:29:29 ◼   ► a lot of people overlook is what you're

00:29:31 ◼   ► describing which is like being a

00:29:32 ◼   ► stand-up comedian is not just being

00:29:34 ◼   ► funny and getting girls on the road it's

00:29:37 ◼   ► a lot of like you say listen to yourself

00:29:39 ◼   ► be a not-very-good stand-up comic on the

00:29:40 ◼   ► road to being less bad which is just

00:29:42 ◼   ► intolerable

00:29:43 ◼   ► I mean it's just you know it's weird

00:29:45 ◼   ► that like like with like you and me like

00:29:48 ◼   ► I don't get stage fright exactly i like

00:29:51 ◼   ► being in front of people I like doing

00:29:52 ◼   ► stuff I feel like I really thrive you

00:29:54 ◼   ► know when i'm doing whatever in front of

00:29:56 ◼   ► people but a weirdly unnatural thing to

00:29:59 ◼   ► do but like it works like it makes sense

00:30:01 ◼   ► it's like I do i really like doing it

00:30:04 ◼   ► but you know I don't know I don't know I

00:30:06 ◼   ► think you're I think you're onto

00:30:07 ◼   ► something though in terms of the being

00:30:08 ◼   ► underused because it's so if you want

00:30:11 ◼   ► something that's way out of reach but

00:30:13 ◼   ► you never even attempted to do now I'm

00:30:14 ◼   ► going into another show here but like if

00:30:16 ◼   ► you're doing this thing that's way out

00:30:17 ◼   ► of reach and not even close to anything

00:30:19 ◼   ► you've ever done or made before and you

00:30:21 ◼   ► don't understand enough about the

00:30:22 ◼   ► process to know whether you're on the

00:30:24 ◼   ► right path or or making the right

00:30:26 ◼   ► mistakes even it's like how would you

00:30:28 ◼   ► even know that that's just a recipe for

00:30:30 ◼   ► disaster

00:30:31 ◼   ► I remember the first time i was

00:30:33 ◼   ► introduced to Richard Feynman the

00:30:37 ◼   ► physicist physicist the first time I

00:30:40 ◼   ► remember the first time

00:30:41 ◼   ► oh you mean his work I remember my first

00:30:43 ◼   ► time ya know I was never personally

00:30:45 ◼   ► introduced him but introduced him as a

00:30:47 ◼   ► as a character introduced to his writing

00:30:49 ◼   ► yeah and you know he was there he was

00:30:53 ◼   ► very adept at presenting himself as

00:30:57 ◼   ► someone who had whoo-whoo-whoo-whoo was

00:31:01 ◼   ► kind of fully realized and there was

00:31:06 ◼   ► obviously something crazy about him but

00:31:09 ◼   ► but his self presentation of somebody

00:31:13 ◼   ► who not only is a nobel-prize-winning

00:31:14 ◼   ► physics genius but also a safecracker

00:31:17 ◼   ► and

00:31:17 ◼   ► and a you know a competitive Archer and

00:31:21 ◼   ► a ladies man and a you know and again a

00:31:24 ◼   ► breakdancer and of you and a half finish

00:31:27 ◼   ► carpenter you know he and you meet you

00:31:30 ◼   ► meet people like that who who have a lot

00:31:34 ◼   ► of pride in themselves and and all and i

00:31:39 ◼   ► are very accomplished without a question

00:31:41 ◼   ► i remember reading his books at an

00:31:43 ◼   ► impressionable age and feeling like you

00:31:47 ◼   ► know that that was the standard even as

00:31:49 ◼   ► I recognized that was the standard of of

00:31:51 ◼   ► like human realize ate like personal

00:31:55 ◼   ► realization

00:31:56 ◼   ► huh what the same time also realizing

00:31:59 ◼   ► that me

00:32:00 ◼   ► probably i would not enjoy him as a

00:32:05 ◼   ► personal friend or you know that over

00:32:08 ◼   ► time he would be wearing and and that

00:32:14 ◼   ► there was something false also about his

00:32:18 ◼   ► self promotion

00:32:23 ◼   ► I guess you know and then later on there

00:32:26 ◼   ► was a guy I knew who use who was like a

00:32:30 ◼   ► punk rockers how squatting gutter Punk

00:32:34 ◼   ► guy that was a friend of mine and he and

00:32:36 ◼   ► I were party buddies back when party

00:32:40 ◼   ► right in that period where party stopped

00:32:43 ◼   ► meeting fun time you know what I mean

00:32:47 ◼   ► it's like yeah we're going to a party

00:32:50 ◼   ► all right to party and it's like no work

00:32:52 ◼   ► partying like partying became a verb

00:32:55 ◼   ► yeah right it is not where we are not

00:32:56 ◼   ► this isn't fun anymore this is like

00:32:59 ◼   ► serious business and at a certain point

00:33:01 ◼   ► I you know I didn't see him for a couple

00:33:04 ◼   ► of weeks and then he shows up and his

00:33:09 ◼   ► head is shaved and he's wearing like all

00:33:13 ◼   ► natural fiber clothes and he looks very

00:33:17 ◼   ► serene and I was like a man what the you

00:33:20 ◼   ► know like what's up and he's like I

00:33:24 ◼   ► decided that my life was on the wrong

00:33:26 ◼   ► path and I'm going to

00:33:30 ◼   ► I'm going to Tibet and i'm going to

00:33:34 ◼   ► pursue that you know minute i'm gonna

00:33:36 ◼   ► get on the right path and by by which he

00:33:39 ◼   ► meant like going to go in the whole hog

00:33:42 ◼   ► tibetan buddhism well and I was like

00:33:45 ◼   ► what does that mean you don't want to

00:33:47 ◼   ► like go get baked and play video games

00:33:50 ◼   ► and he was like i do not and he kind of

00:33:54 ◼   ► like sailed out of my life on a you know

00:33:58 ◼   ► on a kind of magic carpet of like

00:34:04 ◼   ► whatever stacked up flip flops

00:34:07 ◼   ► however it is you make that journey

00:34:09 ◼   ► before but before he made that change

00:34:14 ◼   ► I knew him to be like one of those like

00:34:17 ◼   ► hippie punks who was really super

00:34:20 ◼   ► righteous about things but also was

00:34:22 ◼   ► maybe the most misogynist person you'd

00:34:24 ◼   ► ever met you know yeah that's right you

00:34:25 ◼   ► know the type

00:34:26 ◼   ► I know the type where it's like you are

00:34:28 ◼   ► super duper righteous but you are such a

00:34:30 ◼   ► dick to your girlfriend and to every

00:34:32 ◼   ► woman i know that there's something very

00:34:34 ◼   ► broken in you and I do not believe i do

00:34:37 ◼   ► not believe and you know and he sailed

00:34:41 ◼   ► out of my life I've never seen him again

00:34:42 ◼   ► but but presumably he q could also you

00:34:49 ◼   ► could have also followed that pellet

00:34:51 ◼   ► path to self actualization and he might

00:34:57 ◼   ► have even addressed the the the bad dog

00:35:00 ◼   ► inside of him but I'm sitting here now

00:35:04 ◼   ► and I i find it very difficult to look

00:35:08 ◼   ► in the mirror and address myself like

00:35:10 ◼   ► hello I am looking at you now and we are

00:35:16 ◼   ► trying to decide what to do with

00:35:19 ◼   ► ourselves and what to do in life like

00:35:24 ◼   ► I'm checking in i'm checking in with you

00:35:26 ◼   ► you i'm looking at you and you are me

00:35:29 ◼   ► you know if I get you talking to the you

00:35:33 ◼   ► the world sees well no I mean I fight

00:35:35 ◼   ► like trying to talk to trying to get out

00:35:39 ◼   ► of the place where I'm talking to myself

00:35:41 ◼   ► inside my head

00:35:42 ◼   ► alright oh it's hard it's harder than it

00:35:44 ◼   ► sounds right and then actually recognize

00:35:46 ◼   ► that i'm talking to you know a living

00:35:49 ◼   ► being who is half way through the normal

00:35:55 ◼   ► lifespan and he's trying to do good and

00:35:59 ◼   ► trying to do good at a multitude of

00:36:01 ◼   ► levels trying to do good for other

00:36:02 ◼   ► people trying to do good for myself

00:36:04 ◼   ► trying to do good for the people that

00:36:06 ◼   ► love me trying to you know be a good

00:36:08 ◼   ► neighbor trying to be a good driver

00:36:10 ◼   ► trying to you know like all these things

00:36:13 ◼   ► and it's very easy to sit for hours and

00:36:15 ◼   ► hours and hours talking to myself inside

00:36:18 ◼   ► my you know my little Plato's cave but

00:36:25 ◼   ► to really just stand in front of a

00:36:27 ◼   ► mirror and say you know like all of this

00:36:30 ◼   ► all of these multitudes of worlds are

00:36:34 ◼   ► happening just inside me and I am alone

00:36:38 ◼   ► in this room and now i'm really trying

00:36:42 ◼   ► to actually like have some sympathy for

00:36:45 ◼   ► this person i recognized in this

00:36:49 ◼   ► reflection it's excruciating and I feel

00:36:54 ◼   ► like right now I need it i feel very

00:36:55 ◼   ► alone right now in this in my campaign

00:36:59 ◼   ► you know that there's what once you have

00:37:01 ◼   ► been in joined this world there isn't

00:37:04 ◼   ► any you i can't take a break you know

00:37:08 ◼   ► what I mean like I can't go back to my

00:37:09 ◼   ► normal life for a couple of days from a

00:37:11 ◼   ► practical standpoint and you can deepen

00:37:13 ◼   ► the in the slog at this point right deep

00:37:15 ◼   ► in this log and a lot of people that

00:37:17 ◼   ► that are helping me are you know they're

00:37:21 ◼   ► there

00:37:21 ◼   ► it's very easy for people to be like

00:37:22 ◼   ► well I you know the candidates just got

00:37:24 ◼   ► to go do the things so anyway I'm gonna

00:37:27 ◼   ► go back to my life for a while and if he

00:37:29 ◼   ► needs me he'll reach out or you know a

00:37:31 ◼   ► lot of lot of people helping the

00:37:33 ◼   ► campaign but it can't be a full-time job

00:37:36 ◼   ► for them and it's it it's very easy for

00:37:41 ◼   ► three or four days to go by where where

00:37:44 ◼   ► every one of the 20 people that has

00:37:47 ◼   ► pledged to help me kind of feels like

00:37:49 ◼   ► the other 19 are probably picking up the

00:37:51 ◼   ► slack while they go do a thing

00:37:55 ◼   ► or where they you know they have to do

00:37:56 ◼   ► their normal job or they go tend to

00:37:59 ◼   ► their family and in fact all 20 of them

00:38:02 ◼   ► are doing something else and three or

00:38:05 ◼   ► four days go by and I'm just you know I

00:38:08 ◼   ► have all these little events i have to

00:38:11 ◼   ► do that stack up six a day but then I

00:38:16 ◼   ► get I you know no one is minding the

00:38:19 ◼   ► store of the of the that realm of the

00:38:22 ◼   ► imagination right no one is minding the

00:38:24 ◼   ► store of that place where i wanted to

00:38:28 ◼   ► run a campaign that was very different

00:38:30 ◼   ► and I'm just trying to I'm just trying

00:38:34 ◼   ► to leave this appointment that ends at

00:38:36 ◼   ► two and make it to that point that ends

00:38:38 ◼   ► at two forty-five and on your end up

00:38:42 ◼   ► being impaired being the one reliable

00:38:44 ◼   ► person on the one-man team I'm you know

00:38:47 ◼   ► I'm the only one I mean I'm the only

00:38:49 ◼   ► person that is it that has to do

00:38:51 ◼   ► everything over there has to be at

00:38:53 ◼   ► everything and that makes sense but I'm

00:38:57 ◼   ► not used to reaching out to people at a

00:39:02 ◼   ► a personal emotional level even up even

00:39:05 ◼   ► when nothing is at stake or even at the

00:39:06 ◼   ► beach the best of circumstances it's

00:39:09 ◼   ► very hard for me to say to the three

00:39:11 ◼   ► people who love me the most

00:39:12 ◼   ► can I have a hug and so you know

00:39:17 ◼   ► exceptionally difficult to recognize

00:39:19 ◼   ► that I am emotionally taxed and confused

00:39:26 ◼   ► and you know and struggling to keep the

00:39:31 ◼   ► things that matter to me in focus as my

00:39:34 ◼   ► daily routine turns into this cycle of

00:39:37 ◼   ► things that don't especially matter to

00:39:40 ◼   ► me but need to get done right and it's a

00:39:43 ◼   ► and so so I need to I need to be able to

00:39:48 ◼   ► look into the that mirror and say like

00:39:50 ◼   ► hello we are you and I me and then this

00:39:56 ◼   ► reflection of me that's the only the

00:39:59 ◼   ► only way i know to confront myself it in

00:40:04 ◼   ► this different way

00:40:06 ◼   ► you know like I'm on your team at least

00:40:09 ◼   ► like there's one person in the room but

00:40:11 ◼   ► I am on your team and the you know the

00:40:15 ◼   ► the reflection in the mirror just wants

00:40:18 ◼   ► to get away

00:40:19 ◼   ► it does not want it doesn't want to be

00:40:21 ◼   ► talked to that way and it just wants to

00:40:24 ◼   ► you know its eyes a light on the first

00:40:27 ◼   ► shiny thing in the room that it can it

00:40:31 ◼   ► can go to and and start to play with

00:40:33 ◼   ► like oh shit there's a pair of scissors

00:40:36 ◼   ► you know I haven't sharpen those

00:40:37 ◼   ► scissors and it's also anytime I think

00:40:42 ◼   ► anytime I try to find some room

00:40:45 ◼   ► I don't make some dire but you know

00:40:47 ◼   ► anytime you want to try some find some

00:40:49 ◼   ► relief from how you feel especially how

00:40:51 ◼   ► relief but how you feel about who you

00:40:53 ◼   ► are but there are these different roads

00:40:55 ◼   ► that you can take including things like

00:40:57 ◼   ► talking in the mirror or you know you

00:40:58 ◼   ► with any example something like that

00:41:00 ◼   ► troubles like if you don't do that when

00:41:03 ◼   ► things are going ok or when things are

00:41:05 ◼   ► going well it can make it feel a little

00:41:08 ◼   ► chancy to do that when you're not

00:41:10 ◼   ► feeling well things like you know if the

00:41:12 ◼   ► thing is like it's easy it's easy to

00:41:14 ◼   ► like I've been interested in things like

00:41:15 ◼   ► mindfulness and things like that it's

00:41:17 ◼   ► it's it's easy to get an easy it's a

00:41:20 ◼   ► attractive to me to think a lot about

00:41:22 ◼   ► mindfulness when things are going poorly

00:41:24 ◼   ► it's not as attractive to think about it

00:41:25 ◼   ► when things are going well because

00:41:27 ◼   ► things are going well that's the entire

00:41:28 ◼   ► point of the mindfulness problem is that

00:41:30 ◼   ► like you you're not noticing the little

00:41:33 ◼   ► barometric changes throughout throughout

00:41:35 ◼   ► your life and then throughout even a

00:41:37 ◼   ► given day and so like right when you're

00:41:39 ◼   ► at the point you know this guy needs a

00:41:40 ◼   ► pep talk

00:41:40 ◼   ► alright you know or whatever you're

00:41:41 ◼   ► looking at a Wow who's that who's that

00:41:43 ◼   ► old failure

00:41:44 ◼   ► yeah too late now well the thing is the

00:41:46 ◼   ► heart it's way harder for me because i

00:41:50 ◼   ► have tried numerous times in my life

00:41:52 ◼   ► when I've done something well to go

00:41:55 ◼   ► alright hey yeah you know into the man

00:41:58 ◼   ► always said you're not you're you feel

00:42:00 ◼   ► like you're not good at not even rest on

00:42:02 ◼   ► your laurels like you have trouble even

00:42:03 ◼   ► enjoying like a moment of nominal

00:42:05 ◼   ► victory even a moment you know you walk

00:42:07 ◼   ► off the stage at a triumphant

00:42:09 ◼   ► performance and I walk in and I look at

00:42:12 ◼   ► I just started using the second person

00:42:15 ◼   ► rather than the first the you walk up

00:42:17 ◼   ► the stage and up and it's like no

00:42:19 ◼   ► there have been moments in my life when

00:42:21 ◼   ► I have walked off the stage or have

00:42:22 ◼   ► walked out of the the interview or out

00:42:25 ◼   ► of the the the test or whatever and

00:42:29 ◼   ► walked immediately into the bathroom and

00:42:31 ◼   ► stood there and looked at myself in the

00:42:33 ◼   ► mirror and said you did a good job that

00:42:36 ◼   ► was good you did good there and the

00:42:40 ◼   ► reflection in the mirror

00:42:42 ◼   ► squirms uncomfortably and wants to get

00:42:44 ◼   ► out of that situation even more then

00:42:47 ◼   ► when you know because i think the

00:42:49 ◼   ► impulse is the same

00:42:50 ◼   ► uh-huh to say like you know your ok you

00:42:54 ◼   ► did good like I see you I'm

00:42:56 ◼   ► acknowledging that you did well and I

00:42:59 ◼   ► just don't I don't know how to receive

00:43:01 ◼   ► and I don't want to hear it and so yeah

00:43:03 ◼   ► be that the number of opportunities on

00:43:07 ◼   ► the campaign trail to walk out of a

00:43:10 ◼   ► thing and say like wow that was a lot

00:43:12 ◼   ► better than i expected that went really

00:43:13 ◼   ► well that that happens every day too but

00:43:20 ◼   ► the nature of campaigning is always like

00:43:23 ◼   ► what was the last good thing you did and

00:43:27 ◼   ► if it was longer ago than 30 minutes

00:43:30 ◼   ► it's in the past and so I'm I'm already

00:43:36 ◼   ► pretty bad at stacking up

00:43:38 ◼   ► accomplishments and saying like I'm

00:43:40 ◼   ► doing well I'm a good person and and in

00:43:44 ◼   ► this you know in this world where it's

00:43:46 ◼   ► just like you I walk out of an interview

00:43:47 ◼   ► with a with some democratic organization

00:43:50 ◼   ► you know I went to interview the other

00:43:51 ◼   ► day with the King County Democrats which

00:43:54 ◼   ► is a board of directors of about 20

00:43:56 ◼   ► people from every legislative district

00:43:59 ◼   ► in King County says like above the

00:44:01 ◼   ► cording various district groups its yeah

00:44:05 ◼   ► this is now but a big show

00:44:07 ◼   ► it's the big show but it's also like I

00:44:10 ◼   ► when a voter is reading their voter

00:44:13 ◼   ► guide and it says endorsed by the 32nd

00:44:18 ◼   ► district Democrats the 43rd district

00:44:21 ◼   ► Democrats the King County Democrats I

00:44:25 ◼   ► don't know how a voter Parsons that or

00:44:28 ◼   ► four measures that are you know it

00:44:30 ◼   ► matters to people that are members of

00:44:31 ◼   ► those groups but though

00:44:32 ◼   ► so you know I don't and I don't even

00:44:35 ◼   ► know how much but like I went to this

00:44:39 ◼   ► meeting and it was a great meeting

00:44:40 ◼   ► everybody really responded well to me I

00:44:43 ◼   ► felt at home and and and on top of the

00:44:49 ◼   ► you know like like a water ski boat

00:44:52 ◼   ► that's up on step i was just like i had

00:44:55 ◼   ► gotten above the waves and was just

00:44:56 ◼   ► skirting across the surface of the lake

00:44:59 ◼   ► and and people were nodding emphatically

00:45:01 ◼   ► and was a great conversation whether or

00:45:04 ◼   ► not they endorse my endorsement I have

00:45:06 ◼   ► no idea but left that meeting went

00:45:09 ◼   ► immediately to another meeting where I

00:45:11 ◼   ► just felt completely out of my body and

00:45:14 ◼   ► trying to give a speech to a roomful of

00:45:17 ◼   ► people though that I couldn't gauge and

00:45:20 ◼   ► they weren't really looking at me they

00:45:23 ◼   ► were all playing with their salads and

00:45:26 ◼   ► you know when i get home that evening

00:45:30 ◼   ► like what am i what am I thinking about

00:45:33 ◼   ► I'm definitely not sitting and going

00:45:34 ◼   ► like what you did great at the King

00:45:36 ◼   ► County Democrats I'm just thinking like

00:45:38 ◼   ► yeah there's nothing worse than standing

00:45:42 ◼   ► than giving a speech that you don't

00:45:44 ◼   ► quite have that you don't quite nail in

00:45:47 ◼   ► front of a roomful of people that are

00:45:48 ◼   ► playing with their salads

00:45:50 ◼   ► yeah and you're just like were why am i

00:45:53 ◼   ► why would I even go to an event like

00:45:55 ◼   ► that but the thing is you never know you

00:45:56 ◼   ► know what walking in the door I don't

00:45:58 ◼   ► know enough about any of these

00:45:59 ◼   ► organizations to know which ones are

00:46:02 ◼   ► going to be getting into taking all of

00:46:03 ◼   ► those let me not to pressure you already

00:46:05 ◼   ► know this but like is to take each one

00:46:07 ◼   ► of those more serious in the last

00:46:10 ◼   ► because you never know it's like it's

00:46:11 ◼   ► almost like when you're starting out

00:46:12 ◼   ► performing and doing gigs like even

00:46:15 ◼   ► though you you have five shows in a row

00:46:16 ◼   ► where it's the bartender and a friend

00:46:19 ◼   ► like you never know this could be the

00:46:20 ◼   ► show where somebody in the audience is a

00:46:22 ◼   ► booker or somebody who writes for the

00:46:23 ◼   ► local paper you've got to be playing to

00:46:25 ◼   ► the last row

00:46:26 ◼   ► regardless of how you feel because you

00:46:28 ◼   ► don't need you don't even know how

00:46:29 ◼   ► important it could be but you have to

00:46:30 ◼   ► treat that seriously right and it's

00:46:32 ◼   ► precisely analogous because when you are

00:46:34 ◼   ► young you really and when I was starting

00:46:37 ◼   ► out in music I really felt like every

00:46:39 ◼   ► show I had to take that seriously

00:46:41 ◼   ► because you never knew which one was

00:46:43 ◼   ► going to have Jonathan parliament

00:46:45 ◼   ► there and then one day I played a show

00:46:48 ◼   ► and Jonathan Paula man was there and he

00:46:53 ◼   ► came up to me after the show and offered

00:46:55 ◼   ► me a recording contract and it felt like

00:46:58 ◼   ► one of those it felt like being

00:47:00 ◼   ► discovered at the at the malt shop and

00:47:04 ◼   ► yet i never did sign that record

00:47:07 ◼   ► contract and I never did that and it was

00:47:10 ◼   ► and I know a lot of people that did sign

00:47:11 ◼   ► a record contract that was offered to

00:47:13 ◼   ► them by Jonathan parliament and most of

00:47:15 ◼   ► those people that didn't you know I

00:47:19 ◼   ► didn't change the fact that they are now

00:47:21 ◼   ► working somewhere else but you know

00:47:25 ◼   ► there are those they're so over time in

00:47:29 ◼   ► rock-and-roll you learned that the idea

00:47:30 ◼   ► that something life-changing is going to

00:47:35 ◼   ► happen at any one particular show is a

00:47:37 ◼   ► fallacy and that really it's all the

00:47:41 ◼   ► shows together all the great shows

00:47:43 ◼   ► because because they're you know it's

00:47:45 ◼   ► it's it's sort of it's sort of a

00:47:50 ◼   ► counterpart to the argument against the

00:47:51 ◼   ► great man theory of history where it's

00:47:54 ◼   ► really not about Napoleon it's about the

00:47:57 ◼   ► forces that are you know the forces that

00:48:01 ◼   ► work to create Napoleon and the human

00:48:03 ◼   ► forces working all the time and Napoleon

00:48:05 ◼   ► is kind of it irrelevant compared to the

00:48:10 ◼   ► passage of time and I don't agree with

00:48:11 ◼   ► that critique of history but in my own

00:48:14 ◼   ► experience like I i was on my way to

00:48:18 ◼   ► south africa in in 1998 to was given the

00:48:26 ◼   ► opportunity to go study at the

00:48:27 ◼   ► University of Cape Town and to do and to

00:48:30 ◼   ► write a book about the truth and

00:48:31 ◼   ► reconciliation committee that i was

00:48:34 ◼   ► studying at the time and I was going to

00:48:36 ◼   ► go with my mentor Jim Klaus and it was

00:48:39 ◼   ► going to be this like profoundly

00:48:42 ◼   ► life-changing academic trip and in the

00:48:48 ◼   ► three or four months leading up to

00:48:51 ◼   ► leaving for cape town

00:48:53 ◼   ► where I would you know I had all my

00:48:55 ◼   ► ducks in a row and Jim had kind of

00:48:57 ◼   ► tasked me with this thing that I was

00:48:59 ◼   ► going to write out that the book i was

00:49:00 ◼   ► gonna try and write was going to be a

00:49:02 ◼   ► book about these American students

00:49:04 ◼   ► trying to understand and perceive the

00:49:08 ◼   ► truth and reconciliation committee and

00:49:10 ◼   ► what it meant and then my band the

00:49:13 ◼   ► Western State hurricanes got invited to

00:49:14 ◼   ► South by Southwest and south you know

00:49:18 ◼   ► going to South by Southwest was up there

00:49:20 ◼   ► was such a big deal back then such a

00:49:22 ◼   ► lofty dreams I was like a height of the

00:49:23 ◼   ► year they were banned remember around

00:49:25 ◼   ► the same time in Tallahassee and they're

00:49:26 ◼   ► like the early and especially the

00:49:28 ◼   ► mid-nineties it was like that was you

00:49:30 ◼   ► talk about the big game like with you

00:49:31 ◼   ► got invited to go to South by Southwest

00:49:33 ◼   ► like that was that was a benediction you

00:49:36 ◼   ► were going to the show Yeah right this

00:49:38 ◼   ► was this was here I mean it was in some

00:49:39 ◼   ► ways almost like look your head Sullivan

00:49:41 ◼   ► Show were like you may not

00:49:43 ◼   ► you know being invited is big enough but

00:49:45 ◼   ► they could be potentially

00:49:46 ◼   ► career-changing yeah and you had to make

00:49:48 ◼   ► that decision

00:49:48 ◼   ► yeah 10 and I went to I went to gym and

00:49:52 ◼   ► I was like I got invited to go to South

00:49:53 ◼   ► by Southwest with my band you know I've

00:49:55 ◼   ► been in bands now for 46 years and and

00:50:01 ◼   ► this band is finally taking off and this

00:50:04 ◼   ► is one of these once-in-a-lifetime

00:50:05 ◼   ► chances and he was like well you know

00:50:07 ◼   ► cape town will always be there I'll

00:50:10 ◼   ► always be there for you you know I make

00:50:13 ◼   ► make the decision you need to make you

00:50:15 ◼   ► can go to Cape Town and come back and

00:50:17 ◼   ► you know do your band or you can go to

00:50:21 ◼   ► your band and then we'll go to keep down

00:50:23 ◼   ► later and i went to my bandmates and I

00:50:26 ◼   ► described the situation and two of the

00:50:31 ◼   ► three bandmates one of my bandmates said

00:50:35 ◼   ► you should go to Cape Town you know

00:50:36 ◼   ► South by Southwest will always be there

00:50:38 ◼   ► will be there for you when you get back

00:50:40 ◼   ► the other two guys said for this is our

00:50:44 ◼   ► one chance i think that process of

00:50:47 ◼   ► contradiction you just need you just

00:50:49 ◼   ► clarify the supporting member right

00:50:51 ◼   ► right

00:50:52 ◼   ► remember this board member was and I

00:50:54 ◼   ► remember that you guys were like this is

00:50:56 ◼   ► our one chance and if you go to Cape

00:50:58 ◼   ► Town we're leaving the band

00:51:00 ◼   ► jet and so you know I agonized over it

00:51:04 ◼   ► and I decided I can you know the

00:51:06 ◼   ► academic path will be there for me i

00:51:09 ◼   ► have to pursue this opportunity you know

00:51:12 ◼   ► you don't you don't get asked to go up

00:51:16 ◼   ► to the majors an infinite number of

00:51:19 ◼   ► times and so much less it's so much less

00:51:21 ◼   ► abstract I mean especially maybe at that

00:51:23 ◼   ► age it's like this is not abstract at

00:51:25 ◼   ► all like the going going to South Africa

00:51:27 ◼   ► not there's anything I mean obviously

00:51:28 ◼   ► that's huge but it's a little bit more

00:51:30 ◼   ► abstract and the idea of your band like

00:51:33 ◼   ► this is the moment I could you pass up

00:51:34 ◼   ► that opportunity for your band is going

00:51:36 ◼   ► to seem bananas to Jimmy throw that away

00:51:38 ◼   ► is how it probably felt yeah right and I

00:51:40 ◼   ► so I went to South by Southwest it was

00:51:43 ◼   ► an in it was interesting it was the

00:51:46 ◼   ► first of nine consecutive south by

00:51:49 ◼   ► southwest side attended and but

00:51:55 ◼   ► immediately upon returning from that

00:51:56 ◼   ► South by Southwest the two guys that

00:51:58 ◼   ► said that that they you know that this

00:52:02 ◼   ► was our big shot both quit the band and

00:52:06 ◼   ► I never did go to South Africa and I

00:52:08 ◼   ► never did you know as you probably know

00:52:12 ◼   ► I did not write a book about the truth

00:52:14 ◼   ► and reconciliation committee and so that

00:52:18 ◼   ► feeling like this was the moment I went

00:52:21 ◼   ► to nine more South by Southwest so i

00:52:23 ◼   ► went to eight more south by southwest

00:52:24 ◼   ► and every one of them felt like it could

00:52:26 ◼   ► be the moment and none of them were and

00:52:28 ◼   ► I think maybe if I were in band of

00:52:30 ◼   ► horses there would have been a show that

00:52:33 ◼   ► you could point to that was like that

00:52:35 ◼   ► was the moment where it all started to

00:52:37 ◼   ► go but the fact is the band of horses if

00:52:40 ◼   ► it hadn't been that show it would have

00:52:41 ◼   ► been the next show because they that up

00:52:44 ◼   ► because ben is a great songwriter and

00:52:46 ◼   ► that they were going to make that sound

00:52:49 ◼   ► it didn't it wasn't that they got

00:52:51 ◼   ► discovered it was that they were good

00:52:52 ◼   ► enough that they made it all the way

00:52:55 ◼   ► and so anyway it feels like that in

00:52:59 ◼   ► running for office to that every one of

00:53:01 ◼   ► these events as you walk into it you

00:53:04 ◼   ► feel like you know oh my god there you

00:53:07 ◼   ► know the former governor could be here

00:53:09 ◼   ► and this could be the moment that it all

00:53:11 ◼   ► turns but the fact is no you just have

00:53:15 ◼   ► to go to all of them and if you're gonna

00:53:17 ◼   ► if you're going to catch on with people

00:53:19 ◼   ► and if they're gonna like you know one

00:53:22 ◼   ► meeting is the moment it's it's the it's

00:53:25 ◼   ► the the composite of having performed

00:53:29 ◼   ► all these tasks and having spoken all

00:53:33 ◼   ► these times that it that either reveals

00:53:37 ◼   ► you to be the the one that people are

00:53:39 ◼   ► looking for or reveals you to not be

00:53:41 ◼   ► that one you just blew a huge hole in in

00:53:45 ◼   ► one of the great myths in a way that I

00:53:47 ◼   ► never thought of quite this clearly uh

00:53:49 ◼   ► you know i-i've always talk about this

00:53:52 ◼   ► here but I get you know you always think

00:53:54 ◼   ► about all the times you're going to

00:53:55 ◼   ► arrive right i know we've talked about

00:53:56 ◼   ► this i call you know something i will

00:53:58 ◼   ► arrive and you'll know that you've

00:53:59 ◼   ► arrived and of course anybody who ever

00:54:00 ◼   ► has arrived starts to really realize

00:54:03 ◼   ► that you never really arrived as you

00:54:04 ◼   ► famously said one of our first

00:54:05 ◼   ► interviews even Bono has a boss but

00:54:07 ◼   ► there's always somebody above your

00:54:09 ◼   ► station that you're trying to if not

00:54:11 ◼   ► impressed at least please

00:54:12 ◼   ► but like that the it's almost like the

00:54:14 ◼   ► opposite of arriving it's like there are

00:54:16 ◼   ► if you grow up feeling like there's a

00:54:18 ◼   ► handful of chances that you might get to

00:54:21 ◼   ► really make something happen in a way

00:54:23 ◼   ► that is you know I think the subtext is

00:54:25 ◼   ► that is something that won't undo like

00:54:27 ◼   ► when i get this break then it's just

00:54:29 ◼   ► going to be a rocket to the top but the

00:54:31 ◼   ► truth is that like this chances may come

00:54:34 ◼   ► along but alongside each of those

00:54:35 ◼   ► chances are like 10,000 opportunities

00:54:38 ◼   ► for everything to unravel and like you

00:54:40 ◼   ► you those are the ones on something it's

00:54:43 ◼   ► also depressing but I think it's kind of

00:54:44 ◼   ► true like you really facing the 10,000

00:54:46 ◼   ► times every time you walk out there

00:54:48 ◼   ► you're facing the beginning of an

00:54:49 ◼   ► unraveling in some ways that's not the

00:54:51 ◼   ► reality of it and it's like you know the

00:54:53 ◼   ► arrival doesn't stick

00:54:54 ◼   ► well right and it is and it just leads

00:54:57 ◼   ► to more expectations so many there are

00:54:59 ◼   ► so many so many events on the con that

00:55:01 ◼   ► the in the two months I've been actively

00:55:03 ◼   ► campaigning for office so many events

00:55:05 ◼   ► when I walked out of a thing I was like

00:55:07 ◼   ► if the election

00:55:08 ◼   ► held today and it were only and it only

00:55:12 ◼   ► involved the 45 people in that room

00:55:15 ◼   ► perfect I would you know I would win

00:55:18 ◼   ► this office and the 45 people in that

00:55:20 ◼   ► room are you know they they are

00:55:23 ◼   ► important people in the process but the

00:55:27 ◼   ► election isn't today it doesn't involve

00:55:31 ◼   ► just those 45 people and no one can

00:55:34 ◼   ► anoint you you can be appointed to

00:55:39 ◼   ► public office which is a crazy thing but

00:55:43 ◼   ► for the most part if you are you know if

00:55:45 ◼   ► if you want to be like a legitimate

00:55:47 ◼   ► elected person there's no shortcut

00:55:52 ◼   ► because the election is just it's just

00:55:56 ◼   ► one day and you do everything you can up

00:55:59 ◼   ► until that day and then I mean think

00:56:01 ◼   ► about the elections we've watched as

00:56:03 ◼   ► passive viewers or even engaged viewers

00:56:05 ◼   ► where it's like I'm in the last election

00:56:08 ◼   ► between a Romney and Obama did even

00:56:13 ◼   ► though it turned out to be a total sweep

00:56:18 ◼   ► like going into that sharing even in

00:56:20 ◼   ► that week it didn't look like it didn't

00:56:22 ◼   ► look like it didn't feel like it and and

00:56:24 ◼   ► a lot of pundits were calling it the

00:56:26 ◼   ► other way like until until their that

00:56:30 ◼   ► until Obama's name was written in their

00:56:32 ◼   ► blood on the wall and you just go wow

00:56:37 ◼   ► like there's get the it's just never a

00:56:41 ◼   ► thing you can sew up if it's at all

00:56:45 ◼   ► competitive i mean there are races all

00:56:46 ◼   ► the time where that just sewed up from

00:56:48 ◼   ► the beginning there's never a challenge

00:56:50 ◼   ► but for me in this race

00:56:52 ◼   ► there's nothing guaranteed about it and

00:56:54 ◼   ► people say all the time to me on the you

00:56:57 ◼   ► know when I'm out in the world they're

00:56:58 ◼   ► like well you've raised a lot of money

00:56:59 ◼   ► you know it's all good see it's a sure

00:57:01 ◼   ► thing that you're getting through the

00:57:02 ◼   ► primary and it's like I don't think it's

00:57:04 ◼   ► a sure thing right hand and the damn the

00:57:06 ◼   ► danger of it is that that feeling in

00:57:10 ◼   ► other people where they say oh you've

00:57:11 ◼   ► raised a lot of money

00:57:12 ◼   ► it's it's also a way for them to say

00:57:15 ◼   ► like well you don't you know I support

00:57:16 ◼   ► you but you don't need my active help

00:57:18 ◼   ► because it seems like things are going

00:57:20 ◼   ► great for you and it's like from where I

00:57:23 ◼   ► stand that is not how it feels and that

00:57:27 ◼   ► you know that's a very that's that

00:57:30 ◼   ► contributes to this feeling of

00:57:31 ◼   ► loneliness because a lot of my a lot of

00:57:33 ◼   ► my people a lot of my natural supporters

00:57:35 ◼   ► they think things are going great when i

00:57:37 ◼   ► run into him on the street they're like

00:57:39 ◼   ► it sounds amazing i saw your name in the

00:57:40 ◼   ► newspaper things you see things are

00:57:42 ◼   ► going amazing and I just feel like up

00:57:47 ◼   ► completely abandoned in some ways

00:57:49 ◼   ► because people like all things are going

00:57:52 ◼   ► good i can go back and do i go back to

00:57:53 ◼   ► my life and it's almost like and he kind

00:57:57 ◼   ► of got at this one swing a few upsets go

00:57:59 ◼   ► when you're talking about going in and

00:58:00 ◼   ► and visiting with the district Democrats

00:58:03 ◼   ► and like you're you and all kind of

00:58:05 ◼   ► start to commiserate with other

00:58:06 ◼   ► candidates it's almost like those are

00:58:08 ◼   ► the only people that you can really

00:58:10 ◼   ► really talk to about this would be your

00:58:12 ◼   ► competitors they are they always like

00:58:14 ◼   ► getting divorced and having it be the

00:58:15 ◼   ► loneliest year of your life and the only

00:58:18 ◼   ► person you can hope could even

00:58:19 ◼   ► understand what you're going through is

00:58:20 ◼   ► the person to force me back right well

00:58:23 ◼   ► and and so and and so in that there is a

00:58:28 ◼   ► lot of fellow feeling between people

00:58:31 ◼   ► running for office but I but it really

00:58:37 ◼   ► it's it couldn't be more exaggerated how

00:58:39 ◼   ► little I resemble them in in some ways

00:58:44 ◼   ► really still um let me know if you feel

00:58:48 ◼   ► that way

00:58:48 ◼   ► yeah because because they all I mean if

00:58:53 ◼   ► you go i did this the other day I went

00:58:55 ◼   ► and and went to the wikipedia page for

00:58:58 ◼   ► the washington state legislature and I

00:59:01 ◼   ► just started reading reading the

00:59:02 ◼   ► biographies of all the all the current

00:59:07 ◼   ► people in the legislature just getting

00:59:09 ◼   ► us a picture of them and I mean this

00:59:16 ◼   ► stock biography is graduated with a

00:59:19 ◼   ► degree in public in political science

00:59:22 ◼   ► went immediately to work at a non-profit

00:59:27 ◼   ► became the director of that nonprofit

00:59:30 ◼   ► it then became the executive director of

00:59:32 ◼   ► a different nonprofit then worked for a

00:59:34 ◼   ► while as a as a on the campaign of a

00:59:37 ◼   ► candidate who either one office at which

00:59:40 ◼   ► point they became their that candidates

00:59:42 ◼   ► legislative aide or that candidate lost

00:59:45 ◼   ► and they went back to the world

00:59:47 ◼   ► nonprofits and then you know and then

00:59:50 ◼   ► they did and at no point does it ever

00:59:53 ◼   ► feel cynical right everyone of those

00:59:55 ◼   ► jobs and that pursuit of a career path

00:59:59 ◼   ► like

00:59:59 ◼   ► like

01:00:00 ◼   ► all those jobs are are fantastic and

01:00:02 ◼   ► people are doing them i think genuinely

01:00:04 ◼   ► like motivated by a desire to to help

01:00:09 ◼   ► and those nonprofits are across a wide

01:00:11 ◼   ► spectrum like helping the homeless

01:00:12 ◼   ► houses for Humanity medical care you

01:00:19 ◼   ► know across the spectrum of like

01:00:20 ◼   ► concerned concerned citizen

01:00:24 ◼   ► uh-huh and then at a certain point from

01:00:28 ◼   ► there from their position at one of

01:00:31 ◼   ► these places then they first run for

01:00:35 ◼   ► office at which point it becomes clear

01:00:37 ◼   ► that it's been a path it's a it's a

01:00:40 ◼   ► career path they've been working toward

01:00:42 ◼   ► that like the doing the work of getting

01:00:45 ◼   ► to that point free for years

01:00:46 ◼   ► yeah and i cannot know I don't know

01:00:48 ◼   ► enough of them really really personally

01:00:51 ◼   ► to know how many of them at 18 years old

01:00:53 ◼   ► said one day I'm going to be a

01:00:57 ◼   ► representative and the path to that is

01:01:01 ◼   ► this is this you know i mean if you do

01:01:05 ◼   ► give you graduate with a degree in

01:01:07 ◼   ► political science

01:01:08 ◼   ► you are you have some awareness of what

01:01:12 ◼   ► you're doing right and so you know at

01:01:15 ◼   ► graduate with a degree in political

01:01:16 ◼   ► science and immediately join the

01:01:20 ◼   ► nonprofit world like you you're

01:01:22 ◼   ► conscious of of those steps but i can't

01:01:25 ◼   ► know how much each one of these people

01:01:29 ◼   ► individually is pursuing this over the

01:01:31 ◼   ► course of time and this is how you get

01:01:33 ◼   ► there but in meeting them on the

01:01:36 ◼   ► campaign trail you know I don't feel

01:01:39 ◼   ► well today let's just say that they that

01:01:45 ◼   ► this group of people is not

01:01:46 ◼   ► characterized by their right bald sense

01:01:48 ◼   ► of humor nor by their worldliness really

01:01:52 ◼   ► they're you know they're capable of

01:01:55 ◼   ► talking about all of the all of what are

01:02:00 ◼   ► agreed are the challenges facing our

01:02:03 ◼   ► city today but they're not capable of

01:02:07 ◼   ► talking about it outside of of what the

01:02:10 ◼   ► agreed-upon corral of

01:02:12 ◼   ► of issues is or corral of notions I had

01:02:16 ◼   ► a sitting city councilman who it is a

01:02:19 ◼   ► likable person say to me the other day

01:02:20 ◼   ► he was like you know the thing about you

01:02:23 ◼   ► is he said I you know I hope this is an

01:02:27 ◼   ► unsolicited advice and I was like are

01:02:28 ◼   ► you kidding me

01:02:29 ◼   ► consider it to listen if I'm soliciting

01:02:32 ◼   ► at what he's like thing is nobody knows

01:02:34 ◼   ► what you're gonna do like this opponent

01:02:39 ◼   ► of yours like I may disagree with him

01:02:42 ◼   ► but I know when he gets the job I know

01:02:44 ◼   ► what he's gonna do this guy I know what

01:02:49 ◼   ► he's going to do this low a woman I know

01:02:51 ◼   ► what she's going to do and nobody knows

01:02:54 ◼   ► what you're gonna do so how can we how

01:02:59 ◼   ► can we choose you and I said uh I mean

01:03:05 ◼   ► that my sense is that ninety-five

01:03:09 ◼   ► percent of the things that come across a

01:03:11 ◼   ► city council person's desk were

01:03:13 ◼   ► completely unforeseen that five percent

01:03:17 ◼   ► of the things you know are going to

01:03:18 ◼   ► happen but there's a police scandal or

01:03:21 ◼   ► suddenly shale oil brings a drilling rig

01:03:26 ◼   ► into the harbor or there's a an economic

01:03:30 ◼   ► crisis or a snowstorm or you know

01:03:32 ◼   ► they're like so much of the job is

01:03:36 ◼   ► reacting to things that nobody

01:03:37 ◼   ► anticipated i would imagine that he that

01:03:43 ◼   ► nobody knows what anybody's going to do

01:03:45 ◼   ► and he said yeah that's right but the

01:03:48 ◼   ► only way we know how to choose is if you

01:03:53 ◼   ► have demonstrated like consistency in

01:03:58 ◼   ► what you are going to do and then from

01:04:01 ◼   ► that we extrapolate what you're what

01:04:04 ◼   ► what you would do in a in unforeseen

01:04:06 ◼   ► circumstances and I'm like that is a

01:04:08 ◼   ► really I see I see what you're saying

01:04:11 ◼   ► but it's all it seems like a really bad

01:04:13 ◼   ► bad because it because what it because

01:04:17 ◼   ► what it doesn't do is account for a

01:04:20 ◼   ► person's flexibility

01:04:24 ◼   ► or morality or curiosity all it all of

01:04:32 ◼   ► voting record is is a measurable set of

01:04:38 ◼   ► data that you can you know you can put

01:04:41 ◼   ► up against your voting record and see

01:04:44 ◼   ► what the differences are and know and be

01:04:46 ◼   ► able to put a like a points rating on is

01:04:48 ◼   ► this guy more liberal than me less

01:04:50 ◼   ► liberal than me is he well and again

01:04:52 ◼   ► given that it covers things that

01:04:54 ◼   ► happened in the past it's not even that

01:04:55 ◼   ► useful for what somebody's going to do

01:04:57 ◼   ► next

01:04:58 ◼   ► it's more useful for saying like I think

01:05:00 ◼   ► it's it's more useful as a negative than

01:05:01 ◼   ► as a positive in the voting record right

01:05:03 ◼   ► and because you can because you can say

01:05:04 ◼   ► well I I don't like the way this person

01:05:06 ◼   ► voted on all these things because even

01:05:08 ◼   ► if you do like the way this person voted

01:05:10 ◼   ► on most of these things is no indication

01:05:11 ◼   ► of what they're gonna do next

01:05:13 ◼   ► yeah and and i understand that that

01:05:16 ◼   ► picking some picking somebody for public

01:05:18 ◼   ► office based on you know I think I think

01:05:23 ◼   ► about ross perot and when ross perot

01:05:26 ◼   ► first entered that race in 88 he was a

01:05:32 ◼   ► guy that a lot of us naturally would

01:05:34 ◼   ► have would have not had anything to do

01:05:39 ◼   ► with because he was a Texas oil guy and

01:05:42 ◼   ► outspoken you know it seems like he had

01:05:44 ◼   ► a pearl-handled revolvers and was a was

01:05:47 ◼   ► a you know a real rogue so funny at

01:05:53 ◼   ► first how much he appealed to people for

01:05:56 ◼   ► being down to earth and just so

01:05:58 ◼   ► obviously sensible young remember that

01:06:01 ◼   ► because on the one hand go well this is

01:06:03 ◼   ► a guy who's like made I mean you know it

01:06:05 ◼   ► is at that time there so that emerging

01:06:07 ◼   ► idea of like this is obviously somebody

01:06:08 ◼   ► we can trust because this guy built a

01:06:10 ◼   ► business but also he's such a straight

01:06:12 ◼   ► shooter at the beginning at the

01:06:13 ◼   ► beginning it was before he was zone like

01:06:15 ◼   ► 90 ball salad like everybody thought

01:06:18 ◼   ► this is this guy is the straightest

01:06:19 ◼   ► shooters you know we stand with ross

01:06:20 ◼   ► perot yeah and and for myself as a as a

01:06:24 ◼   ► radical at the time

01:06:26 ◼   ► ross perot appealed to me because it

01:06:29 ◼   ► felt like the other candidates in the

01:06:32 ◼   ► race were just same old same old who and

01:06:34 ◼   ► here's this guy who's gonna

01:06:36 ◼   ► for better or for worse be a real human

01:06:40 ◼   ► being and then it turned out that ross

01:06:43 ◼   ► perot was you know he was not able to

01:06:49 ◼   ► maintain that and he'll he lost us all

01:06:55 ◼   ► right i mean i really felt like he could

01:06:56 ◼   ► have won that presidency if he had just

01:06:59 ◼   ► stayed the course but he he lost all of

01:07:03 ◼   ► he lost all of his with whatever people

01:07:05 ◼   ► like me that's supported in one of those

01:07:07 ◼   ► like the more that he talked by the end

01:07:09 ◼   ► more than he talked the more you could

01:07:11 ◼   ► say yeah well that k is a straight

01:07:12 ◼   ► shooter but he's a straight shooter

01:07:13 ◼   ► about a lot of wackadoodle because he

01:07:15 ◼   ► started he started he would speak so

01:07:16 ◼   ► freely in a way that was very very

01:07:21 ◼   ► attractive at first but by the end he

01:07:25 ◼   ► just sounded like he didn't have any

01:07:26 ◼   ► filter was maybe maybe you know need

01:07:28 ◼   ► some kind of medication

01:07:29 ◼   ► yeah do you remember I mean don't I

01:07:31 ◼   ► remember that maybe I'm remembering

01:07:33 ◼   ► remembering started live bits but I just

01:07:35 ◼   ► I feel like you know he started out

01:07:36 ◼   ► seeming likes like this like so many

01:07:38 ◼   ► political outsider candidates they

01:07:40 ◼   ► started out really seeming like the

01:07:42 ◼   ► answer because they're not talking like

01:07:43 ◼   ► everybody else but then by the end the

01:07:45 ◼   ► fact they're not talking like everybody

01:07:46 ◼   ► else in the long run really makes them

01:07:48 ◼   ► stick out

01:07:49 ◼   ► yeah and that is that is what i am

01:07:50 ◼   ► trying to you know what I'm facing

01:07:55 ◼   ► personally is like I'm the outsider

01:07:58 ◼   ► candidate and the question is can a

01:08:04 ◼   ► cabinet i as an outsider candidate it

01:08:09 ◼   ► make a convincing portrayal of an

01:08:13 ◼   ► insider candidate and not lose and not

01:08:16 ◼   ► in the process lose the lose something

01:08:21 ◼   ► crucial about myself right and not not

01:08:25 ◼   ► just lose the perception of it but

01:08:27 ◼   ► actually lose something in the process

01:08:32 ◼   ► you know not something a replicable

01:08:34 ◼   ► because i don't think i don't think that

01:08:37 ◼   ► that that my integrity is something that

01:08:40 ◼   ► is you know is so well I don't think

01:08:44 ◼   ► it's a it's a it's malleable in that way

01:08:48 ◼   ► but you know I

01:08:50 ◼   ► when I entered this I this race I said

01:08:52 ◼   ► listen I'm not going to run negative i

01:08:55 ◼   ► just want to run on us on the strength

01:08:56 ◼   ► of ideas and I've described before that

01:09:00 ◼   ► I was under a lot of pressure from

01:09:01 ◼   ► people in my campaign

01:09:04 ◼   ► who knew better to you know to attack my

01:09:08 ◼   ► opponent and I had a lot of anxiety

01:09:12 ◼   ► about it and I ultimately said no I'm

01:09:15 ◼   ► not going to i just want to run on ideas

01:09:17 ◼   ► and they all kind of shrugged and said

01:09:21 ◼   ► okay well let's just run ideas then but

01:09:25 ◼   ► attacking was what they knew how to do

01:09:29 ◼   ► and what they wanted to do and so when I

01:09:32 ◼   ► said I just going to run on ideas they

01:09:34 ◼   ► were like great well then you're the guy

01:09:35 ◼   ► with the ideas so let's have them and I

01:09:44 ◼   ► was also going to six events a day

01:09:46 ◼   ► yeah and so at the end of the day there

01:09:51 ◼   ► was you know an expectation that the at

01:09:54 ◼   ► that after giving you know six different

01:09:57 ◼   ► speeches that I was going to go home and

01:09:58 ◼   ► write two thousand words on this like

01:10:03 ◼   ► world of ideas that i was promoting and

01:10:07 ◼   ► when I wasn't able to do it when I

01:10:10 ◼   ► wasn't able two mustards just just the

01:10:12 ◼   ► the pure energy needed to the spitball

01:10:18 ◼   ► there was a got there was a like a

01:10:25 ◼   ► deficit a a lack of just voice coming

01:10:30 ◼   ► out right there

01:10:31 ◼   ► the people were started to say well here

01:10:34 ◼   ► you guys haven't released any position

01:10:35 ◼   ► papers you haven't taken a stand on

01:10:37 ◼   ► anything and my team I don't you know I

01:10:44 ◼   ► don't think that they were punishing me

01:10:46 ◼   ► but they didn't know what to do i mean

01:10:48 ◼   ► they they would say they knew what to do

01:10:50 ◼   ► they would write up a thing and say my

01:10:52 ◼   ► opponent is a is a baby killer and of

01:10:55 ◼   ► you know they wanted to swift boat every

01:10:59 ◼   ► day and that was what they that was what

01:11:02 ◼   ► they understood and that's what ever

01:11:03 ◼   ► everyone is doing and it's it's so up

01:11:05 ◼   ► people you know people say they don't

01:11:07 ◼   ► like negative campaigning but but what

01:11:09 ◼   ► negative campaigning does it strikes me

01:11:11 ◼   ► as somebody who doesn't like it but sees

01:11:13 ◼   ► it is that it gives you the constant

01:11:15 ◼   ► opportunity to reframe the debate haha

01:11:18 ◼   ► in a way that being positive doesn't

01:11:20 ◼   ► because it makes you seem extremely

01:11:21 ◼   ► realistic makes you seem like you're

01:11:23 ◼   ► speaking the truth to power and and it

01:11:25 ◼   ► gives you constantly gives you the

01:11:26 ◼   ► opportunity to show why this other

01:11:28 ◼   ► person is a bad person and we will have

01:11:30 ◼   ► to say anything at all and so it starts

01:11:32 ◼   ► to rain after 20 days of no rain and the

01:11:36 ◼   ► instinct of everybody is just is to say

01:11:39 ◼   ► you know let's get a press release out i

01:11:41 ◼   ► support the rain and more importantly my

01:11:44 ◼   ► opponent is on-the-record three

01:11:46 ◼   ► different times as saying that he wished

01:11:48 ◼   ► it would stop raining my opponent has

01:11:50 ◼   ► had very little to say about the rain

01:11:51 ◼   ► this week in 1997 my opponent said that

01:11:54 ◼   ► he was sick of the rain

01:11:56 ◼   ► well now in the middle of this drought

01:11:59 ◼   ► who do you want a guy that's sick of

01:12:01 ◼   ► rain even we don't have it for a guy

01:12:03 ◼   ► that loves the Red John Roderick we just

01:12:05 ◼   ► can't afford your reign thinking and so

01:12:08 ◼   ► so what happened in the last couple

01:12:11 ◼   ► weeks is a couple of different times i

01:12:15 ◼   ► was sitting on it you know sitting in a

01:12:17 ◼   ► chair with a laptop in my lap trying

01:12:19 ◼   ► frantically to just stay on top of

01:12:23 ◼   ► emails or whatever and somebody came

01:12:25 ◼   ► over and said here's an opportunity to

01:12:31 ◼   ► set out a press release and one case you

01:12:36 ◼   ► know one of my opponents and the other

01:12:39 ◼   ► opponent were debating housing in the

01:12:42 ◼   ► newspaper and I was left out of the

01:12:44 ◼   ► conversation and everybody was in a

01:12:46 ◼   ► panic that the race is shaping up to be

01:12:48 ◼   ► between these two other guys you're not

01:12:50 ◼   ► even in the conversation and I was like

01:12:52 ◼   ► I'm not in the conversation I'm over

01:12:53 ◼   ► here working on something else they're

01:12:55 ◼   ► like you can't afford to not be in the

01:12:56 ◼   ► conversation and so you know a couple of

01:13:02 ◼   ► different times their press releases

01:13:04 ◼   ► have gone out from my campaign in a tone

01:13:08 ◼   ► that that I didn't like

01:13:14 ◼   ► that you know that in the in the the

01:13:17 ◼   ► context of the political world was mild

01:13:20 ◼   ► stuff but but you know just addressed to

01:13:24 ◼   ► some imaginary reader whose like where

01:13:29 ◼   ► these two guys stand well i just

01:13:32 ◼   ► received a press release

01:13:33 ◼   ► apparently you know this guy doesn't

01:13:37 ◼   ► like the ring and you know and it and it

01:13:42 ◼   ► left me feeling like a like a film like

01:13:45 ◼   ► there was a film on my tongue you know

01:13:47 ◼   ► just kind of like yeah yeah yeah but in

01:13:50 ◼   ► the you know but in the absence of me

01:13:52 ◼   ► generating like candy cane lollipop a

01:13:56 ◼   ► position papers week after week that was

01:14:00 ◼   ► what that was what came out and now I'm

01:14:02 ◼   ► trying to I'm trying to draw a line in

01:14:05 ◼   ► the sand about it and say like no run on

01:14:09 ◼   ► the strength of ideas or nothing and I I

01:14:15 ◼   ► need a shot of vitamin b12 or something

01:14:17 ◼   ► you know right i need a hug it i wish i

01:14:21 ◼   ► could give you a hug but you know it

01:14:23 ◼   ► makes me think a little bit i know this

01:14:24 ◼   ► is kind of far out but you know there's

01:14:26 ◼   ► that I think there's a good reason why

01:14:28 ◼   ► most product lines will very explicitly

01:14:32 ◼   ► provide three levels of service you know

01:14:35 ◼   ► in the classic almost like the three

01:14:37 ◼   ► ways you can medal in the Olympics but

01:14:39 ◼   ► like there's something I mean people

01:14:41 ◼   ► names people talk about this but like I

01:14:42 ◼   ► think there's a reason that still exists

01:14:45 ◼   ► is it clearly frames like how this how

01:14:48 ◼   ► this product works and what it can mean

01:14:49 ◼   ► to you and how it can be right for you

01:14:51 ◼   ► regardless of your needs or budget right

01:14:54 ◼   ► if you had 16 options it would be really

01:14:56 ◼   ► overwhelming it was one option it would

01:14:58 ◼   ► seem inflexible but like that has become

01:15:00 ◼   ► such a I know it's not the same as with

01:15:02 ◼   ► candidates but I'm just saying that's

01:15:03 ◼   ► the kind of thing where that becomes a

01:15:05 ◼   ► talk about a thought technology like

01:15:06 ◼   ► that is an entire way of framing your

01:15:08 ◼   ► the way that your product line works you

01:15:10 ◼   ► know are you know which kind of which

01:15:12 ◼   ► level of GM car are you going to get and

01:15:14 ◼   ► when you get that GM car what kind of

01:15:15 ◼   ► upholstery and it's all these different

01:15:17 ◼   ► ways to like see yourself and your needs

01:15:20 ◼   ► are reflected in the product offering

01:15:22 ◼   ► and it's it's like when you're when you

01:15:24 ◼   ► talk about a political race

01:15:26 ◼   ► the thing is there

01:15:27 ◼   ► it's really difficult to look at any one

01:15:29 ◼   ► candidate on their own because it is

01:15:33 ◼   ► much more complicated it's so much more

01:15:34 ◼   ► comments so much easier for somebody

01:15:36 ◼   ► who's gonna write an article on that to

01:15:37 ◼   ► be able to say well here's the person

01:15:39 ◼   ► with the super clear position that

01:15:40 ◼   ► everybody agrees with like yay look he

01:15:42 ◼   ► really you have to put people next to

01:15:44 ◼   ► each other in order for it to be

01:15:46 ◼   ► campaign in some ways but you have to I

01:15:49 ◼   ► mean I'm not saying you have to but it

01:15:51 ◼   ► sounds like I could see the attraction

01:15:52 ◼   ► of doing that because it gives you a lot

01:15:54 ◼   ► more clarity you know but then you

01:15:56 ◼   ► become incremental closer to being a pro

01:15:58 ◼   ► wrestler the more you do that

01:16:00 ◼   ► yeah and that that is the you know

01:16:02 ◼   ► that's when I I hesitate to say that

01:16:06 ◼   ► that's the challenge because there are

01:16:07 ◼   ► so many challenges if only there were

01:16:11 ◼   ► one right as if only I could just

01:16:13 ◼   ► imagine master one and and honestly like

01:16:15 ◼   ► I'm e at the end of every week I looked

01:16:25 ◼   ► back and I say boy if I had known at the

01:16:26 ◼   ► beginning of this week what I know now I

01:16:29 ◼   ► would have done a lot better job this

01:16:30 ◼   ► week and that's that's very unusual

01:16:32 ◼   ► right in in the course of my normal life

01:16:35 ◼   ► if I ever applied that idea it was

01:16:40 ◼   ► always like if I'd know if I knew two

01:16:42 ◼   ► years ago what I know now I would have

01:16:44 ◼   ► done a better job over the last two

01:16:46 ◼   ► years but it's very seldom in life that

01:16:49 ◼   ► you get into a situation where a you

01:16:51 ◼   ► know every day you get home and you go

01:16:54 ◼   ► well I wish I knew at the beginning of

01:16:56 ◼   ► today what I know now and then you go

01:16:59 ◼   ► into the next day and it's like well

01:17:01 ◼   ► what I learned yesterday didn't really

01:17:02 ◼   ► apply today I learned a whole bunch of

01:17:04 ◼   ► new stuff that I didn't know and I i

01:17:08 ◼   ► wonder if that isn't always that that

01:17:12 ◼   ► isn't going to be true of this whole

01:17:15 ◼   ► race and that on the election day I'm

01:17:17 ◼   ► going to say if you know if I like now

01:17:21 ◼   ► I'm ready to run for office and I and

01:17:24 ◼   ► other people have said that to me that

01:17:27 ◼   ► because as part of a way of saying like

01:17:31 ◼   ► there's no bad way to run for office if

01:17:32 ◼   ► you if this is what you want to do

01:17:34 ◼   ► because you run you you run you in that

01:17:37 ◼   ► you want you running you lose and you

01:17:39 ◼   ► know how to run

01:17:40 ◼   ► none of it really is any and none of it

01:17:48 ◼   ► really points to teaching you how to

01:17:50 ◼   ► govern and so it sounds like a horrible

01:17:54 ◼   ► me you know what is all this horrible

01:17:56 ◼   ► preparation for how to govern its first

01:17:58 ◼   ► of all the habits so not all the habits

01:18:01 ◼   ► the habit of need to show up on time and

01:18:03 ◼   ► think fast and know how to attract their

01:18:05 ◼   ► and hire the right people is a skill

01:18:06 ◼   ► that everybody could use forever but

01:18:08 ◼   ► like so much of this man down in the

01:18:11 ◼   ► trenches stuff it's it feels no no fast

01:18:14 ◼   ► to your occupation but it's something

01:18:16 ◼   ► you could become so small and venal like

01:18:19 ◼   ► with if you if you really made that part

01:18:21 ◼   ► of your life it must also be a personal

01:18:23 ◼   ► struggle to like not turn into something

01:18:24 ◼   ► that you don't want to be and how it

01:18:27 ◼   ► happens and I and I see it you know we

01:18:32 ◼   ► from the outside we look at the process

01:18:34 ◼   ► and we see these political characters

01:18:37 ◼   ► and we and there they appear to be

01:18:39 ◼   ► dripping with corruption because because

01:18:44 ◼   ► their behavior is so is often so

01:18:47 ◼   ► transparently in the service of of

01:18:52 ◼   ► pretty narrow group of a narrow group of

01:18:56 ◼   ► people or a narrow group of expectations

01:18:58 ◼   ► and that could you know that corruption

01:19:00 ◼   ► just feels like it's so clear to most of

01:19:02 ◼   ► us like ah just here either corrupt

01:19:05 ◼   ► before you run for office or running for

01:19:07 ◼   ► office makes you corrupt and from inside

01:19:11 ◼   ► I see now that what it is is that if you

01:19:16 ◼   ► come from this background you you know a

01:19:21 ◼   ► limited number of people and yet you

01:19:24 ◼   ► know a limited number of people who who

01:19:27 ◼   ► feel very much like they have their

01:19:29 ◼   ► finger on the on the pulse of what's

01:19:32 ◼   ► wrong right if you are if you spent 20

01:19:34 ◼   ► years as a you know a working in food

01:19:38 ◼   ► bank and become the executive director

01:19:42 ◼   ► of it like you ever a a real sense and

01:19:46 ◼   ► not a wrong sense that you are clued in

01:19:48 ◼   ► to what's going on in cities because

01:19:51 ◼   ► you're dealing with

01:19:53 ◼   ► the people who are feeling the brunt of

01:19:55 ◼   ► it but really you have you don't know

01:19:57 ◼   ► that many people and you really don't

01:19:59 ◼   ► have a very broad picture of the world

01:20:01 ◼   ► and then you get into office and you see

01:20:04 ◼   ► the same faces over and over and because

01:20:07 ◼   ► raising money is such a big part of it

01:20:09 ◼   ► you end up going to the two fundraisers

01:20:11 ◼   ► with the same people and you end up on

01:20:14 ◼   ► the phone with the same people and if

01:20:17 ◼   ► you don't have a broad picture of the

01:20:19 ◼   ► city

01:20:20 ◼   ► it's very easy to feel like or you know

01:20:23 ◼   ► or the country right it's very easy to

01:20:25 ◼   ► feel like that small group of people

01:20:26 ◼   ► which doesn't seem small it seems really

01:20:29 ◼   ► big 5 600 people that you interact with

01:20:32 ◼   ► but that they represent the people when

01:20:37 ◼   ► you know it's so well so inside and out

01:20:39 ◼   ► that you know within that given like

01:20:42 ◼   ► you're an expert like you know more

01:20:44 ◼   ► about a handful of topics then easily

01:20:48 ◼   ► ninety percent of the population which

01:20:51 ◼   ► is going to serve you well sometimes and

01:20:53 ◼   ► really drive you crazy other times

01:20:54 ◼   ► well-known the things you don't know

01:20:56 ◼   ► with it let alone the things with

01:20:57 ◼   ► somebody else's ninety percent within

01:21:00 ◼   ► you but that's the thing of those 500

01:21:01 ◼   ► people that you that you know every

01:21:04 ◼   ► single one of them considers themselves

01:21:06 ◼   ► an expert in something so you're

01:21:08 ◼   ► standing at that you're standing in the

01:21:10 ◼   ► in the the banquet hall at the sheraton

01:21:14 ◼   ► and a guy comes up from the policemen's

01:21:17 ◼   ► Benevolent Association and a guy comes

01:21:19 ◼   ► up from the builders a group of builders

01:21:22 ◼   ► lobbying group at the bilderberg group

01:21:24 ◼   ► then the guy from the bilderberg group

01:21:26 ◼   ► comes and then there's the you know then

01:21:29 ◼   ► there's the nonprofit you know that the

01:21:31 ◼   ► the woman that chairs the Sierra Club

01:21:33 ◼   ► and then there's the and and so every

01:21:36 ◼   ► one of those people represent themselves

01:21:40 ◼   ► as representing thousands of

01:21:43 ◼   ► constituents and that's when it gets

01:21:46 ◼   ► confusing because you do feel like you

01:21:49 ◼   ► know everything you're there with the

01:21:53 ◼   ► 500 people that know everything and

01:21:57 ◼   ► that's when that corruption what appears

01:22:00 ◼   ► to the rest of us to be corruption

01:22:01 ◼   ► happen

01:22:03 ◼   ► that's because it isn't corruption it's

01:22:06 ◼   ► just that you are doing what your

01:22:07 ◼   ► friends want you to your e you have

01:22:10 ◼   ► these friends and they are asking you to

01:22:12 ◼   ► do things and you can and you you never

01:22:16 ◼   ► hear from the other side you're not even

01:22:18 ◼   ► aware it exists and so you're just

01:22:21 ◼   ► helping your friends it doesn't feel

01:22:23 ◼   ► corrupt to you especially when I think

01:22:28 ◼   ► this is this is so true and so painful

01:22:29 ◼   ► and so on one so many places like

01:22:31 ◼   ► there's this how you felt at one time

01:22:33 ◼   ► and then this how you increasingly or

01:22:36 ◼   ► how you evolve in your thinking as you

01:22:37 ◼   ► more and more realize how it really

01:22:39 ◼   ► works is another way to think of it

01:22:41 ◼   ► where you know when you're a little kid

01:22:43 ◼   ► you picked baseball teams politicians by

01:22:45 ◼   ► their looks right you like I like this

01:22:46 ◼   ► uniform are like the way this person

01:22:48 ◼   ► talks but you know you Cee I think the

01:22:50 ◼   ► part of the the dawning series of

01:22:52 ◼   ► realizations is oh no I see how this

01:22:54 ◼   ► really works

01:22:55 ◼   ► you really mean to get this internship

01:22:57 ◼   ► it really would have helped for me to

01:22:59 ◼   ► have done these other things but also

01:23:00 ◼   ► really knowing the right people would

01:23:02 ◼   ► have made all the difference and and

01:23:04 ◼   ► that feels like corruption if you're on

01:23:06 ◼   ► the outside it's just that how stuff

01:23:08 ◼   ► really works can be so impossibly

01:23:10 ◼   ► complicated unless you're already a

01:23:12 ◼   ► domain expert and if you're already a

01:23:14 ◼   ► domain expert then you already know that

01:23:15 ◼   ► it's really complicated and how it

01:23:17 ◼   ► really works up and then you're the next

01:23:19 ◼   ► let me go oh I see this is how this

01:23:21 ◼   ► really works and even saying that phrase

01:23:24 ◼   ► it sounds like i'm talking about

01:23:25 ◼   ► corruption and and I'm and I'm not it's

01:23:27 ◼   ► just that sometimes it is very

01:23:28 ◼   ► complicated with the the when you when

01:23:31 ◼   ► one person who's an outsider on a topic

01:23:32 ◼   ► has an idea in mind about how something

01:23:34 ◼   ► should change they usually see that as

01:23:36 ◼   ► one or two little steps over discreet

01:23:38 ◼   ► amount of time that could make this

01:23:40 ◼   ► thing happen with it when and again now

01:23:42 ◼   ► I'm just going to gas because i'm not in

01:23:43 ◼   ► Congress and i'm guessing if you're in

01:23:45 ◼   ► Congress and even if you really want

01:23:47 ◼   ► something done and think it's important

01:23:48 ◼   ► and and think it's a good thing to do

01:23:50 ◼   ► and how many times is that really rarely

01:23:52 ◼   ► the que era really the case you might

01:23:54 ◼   ► have to realize well I'm gonna have to

01:23:55 ◼   ► like make this seem like this guy the

01:23:57 ◼   ► senior staff members idea then there's

01:24:00 ◼   ► this person over here who I'm gonna have

01:24:01 ◼   ► to like you know groom for six months

01:24:05 ◼   ► about this idea right i mean it's it's

01:24:07 ◼   ► really as simple as going over in New

01:24:08 ◼   ► York

01:24:09 ◼   ► hey I got an idea let's do this thing

01:24:11 ◼   ► for housing all right I'm

01:24:12 ◼   ► in like that's a good idea let's do that

01:24:14 ◼   ► yeah because there's so many different

01:24:16 ◼   ► demands and so many and permit am i

01:24:18 ◼   ► right I mean it seems like that once you

01:24:19 ◼   ► start the dawning realization of how

01:24:22 ◼   ► stuff really works

01:24:23 ◼   ► it's never really ends there's more and

01:24:25 ◼   ► more things to understand about how

01:24:26 ◼   ► things really work well of of course and

01:24:29 ◼   ► that is what's so maddening about the

01:24:31 ◼   ► process that we that we use to choose

01:24:34 ◼   ► people because the last thing it i'm

01:24:37 ◼   ► learning on a daily basis the last thing

01:24:40 ◼   ► anyone wants to hear from a candidate is

01:24:42 ◼   ► you know every single side of every

01:24:47 ◼   ► single argument has some validity to it

01:24:49 ◼   ► and so it isn't ever a question of

01:24:53 ◼   ► finding out the truth it is always a

01:24:57 ◼   ► question of figuring out a plan and a

01:25:01 ◼   ► process and a and a method and and

01:25:05 ◼   ► working toward goals and it and and you

01:25:08 ◼   ► can't just I mean I had a strange

01:25:11 ◼   ► conversation with a with a City Council

01:25:14 ◼   ► candidate the other day where he said