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The Talk Show

27: The Glass Something or Another, with Dave Pell

 

00:00:00   you reminded me of my guest this week is

00:00:03   Dave pal Dave reminded me of an email i

00:00:07   said i sent you two years ago I i'm

00:00:12   cracking up just thinking about it I i

00:00:14   am not somebody who who usually

00:00:16   remembers his dreams and I I'd I don't

00:00:19   remember if I've ever even maybe once or

00:00:22   twice on the history of the show I have

00:00:23   I've recalled a dream that I had but I

00:00:28   don't think about it i read the email i

00:00:32   think you should i think it's going to

00:00:33   be pretty clear to all your listeners

00:00:35   that I'm sort of in your head so I was I

00:00:38   was I had an upcoming trip to vegas for

00:00:40   a quick weekend trip with my pals

00:00:42   Michael oppan and some croutons I was

00:00:44   really looking forward to it and and one

00:00:46   day I woke up and I had this vivid dream

00:00:48   here's the email I sent to you i wrote

00:00:50   so I'm going to vegas next month for the

00:00:53   weekend guys weekend with crude oil and

00:00:54   Michael lob had a dream last night that

00:00:57   it was that weekend and it was friday

00:00:59   and i just got into town

00:01:02   it was early afternoon and I hadn't met

00:01:04   up with the other two guys yet decided

00:01:07   to take a walk while waiting for them

00:01:09   i'm on a side street off the strip and

00:01:11   who do I run into but you Dave Pell and

00:01:14   you tell me that you're on your way to

00:01:17   your favorite casino the glass

00:01:19   something-or-another that

00:01:20   something-or-another is some foreign

00:01:22   sounding like French word that I had

00:01:24   never heard before and I tell you I've

00:01:26   never even heard of the place and you

00:01:27   tell me it's the best the entire

00:01:30   building is made out of glass gorgeous

00:01:32   you say I love Vegas but I go there all

00:01:36   the time and the only place i'll step

00:01:38   into is this glass whatever it's called

00:01:40   so sure I say why not

00:01:42   so we walk and you know it's a dream

00:01:45   because who walks anywhere in Vegas you

00:01:48   say the places over there by the Rio but

00:01:50   closer to the strip and we're walking

00:01:51   over that way sort of off the strip and

00:01:53   we get there and the entire wat is just

00:01:56   a hole in the ground desert all under

00:01:59   construction and there's a sign that

00:02:01   says that they're replacing at the glass

00:02:02   whatever it's called with a new casino

00:02:04   and you turn to me and say well let's

00:02:07   find somewhere else and get a drink I

00:02:09   tell you that sounds about right to me

00:02:12   and then the dream cuts and immediately

00:02:15   were inside some random generic

00:02:17   stinky-ass old-school Vegas casino bar

00:02:19   like the Riviera or the Sahara flamingo

00:02:22   or one of those places that just looks

00:02:24   like generic vegas casino that's been

00:02:26   there forever and never changes and it's

00:02:28   me and you having a drink and then the

00:02:31   next thing is the dream immediately cuts

00:02:33   to me waking up in the dream not waking

00:02:36   up waking up on an airplane that is just

00:02:39   landed in philadelphia my head hurts and

00:02:42   I realized that my entire trip is over

00:02:44   it's Sunday evening and i'm home and i

00:02:48   don't call it god damn thing from the

00:02:49   entire weekend after sitting down with

00:02:51   you for that drink early Friday

00:02:53   afternoon never checked into my hotel

00:02:55   never once saw to my recollection cool

00:02:59   orlop and I think to myself god damn it

00:03:01   i thought this weekend was gonna be a

00:03:03   lot of fun and I had stuff I wanted to

00:03:04   talk to those guys about what did i do

00:03:06   why does my head hurt

00:03:08   those are the thoughts in my head so I

00:03:11   got I got up and I wrote the email do

00:03:13   yeah well it was all part of a strange

00:03:16   plot by me I was upset at not being

00:03:19   invited to the guy's trip to vegas i

00:03:22   decided to enter to any way I could in

00:03:24   this case i entered your mind through a

00:03:26   dream but be more involved in sort of be

00:03:29   one of the guys are one of the wolf pack

00:03:30   as they say in the hangover I and then

00:03:33   the in the end my plan was foiled

00:03:34   because I ended up completely screwing

00:03:36   up your trip anyway and i'll never get

00:03:38   invited to your fault it really was that

00:03:42   it is funny because I do have like this

00:03:44   like vegas association in my head that

00:03:47   Dave Pelz trouble events because of this

00:03:50   dream and I don't think it's true at all

00:03:51   i don't know i don't think it's trouble

00:03:53   i'm not quite sure what happened like if

00:03:55   in that if the dream is telling me that

00:03:57   you like slip me a Mickey or something

00:03:59   I very very unusual it is for a little

00:04:03   bit adding more clarity i never really

00:04:05   responded to original email but I i did

00:04:08   wake up the next morning with a pretty

00:04:09   nasty STD huh

00:04:14   I have a little bit of follow-up hear

00:04:18   from from previous episodes of the show

00:04:20   and I keep forgetting to do this and I

00:04:22   want to knock this out because i think i

00:04:24   think that this is with the holidays

00:04:27   coming up in whatever no promises i

00:04:29   don't know but it might be this might be

00:04:30   the last episode of the talk show for

00:04:33   2012 and I feel like I don't know

00:04:35   justjust in a way with your end lists

00:04:37   and stuff like that if you have anything

00:04:38   to follow up on now's the time to let's

00:04:40   hit 2013 with it with an empty sleep so

00:04:43   one of them i don't know how in the

00:04:45   world i made this mistake is well couple

00:04:46   weeks ago when Marilyn man was on the

00:04:48   show I said that bourbon comes from

00:04:52   tennis see in not Kentucky and of course

00:04:56   that's exactly backwards and I knew that

00:04:57   and I knew it even when I said it and I

00:04:59   just didn't feel like correcting it

00:05:00   bourbon comes from Kentucky and Jack

00:05:04   Daniels comes from Tennessee and that's

00:05:06   one of the reasons why Jack Daniels is

00:05:08   not called bourbon seems like a very

00:05:10   thick an awful awful mistake for me to

00:05:12   make that my apologies to everybody in

00:05:14   in Kentucky lua listens to the show your

00:05:21   bourbon man Dave no I'm less of a

00:05:25   drinker and more of a smoker really yeah

00:05:27   you're you're you're you're writing gets

00:05:29   it comes across pretty pretty frequently

00:05:32   in your writing

00:05:33   yeah that's the vibe I'm going through

00:05:34   yeah I'm not sure whether bourbon comes

00:05:37   from Kentucky or Tennessee but most of

00:05:39   my pharmaceuticals come from my drawer

00:05:44   it isn't that you know I i do think I

00:05:48   think we're reaching a tipping point and

00:05:50   maybe I don't have any more follow-up

00:05:52   i'm looking at my notes here i don't

00:05:54   think i do now i guess that's it alright

00:05:56   decks clear they're all mistakes have

00:05:58   been repaired

00:05:59   I think we as a country are reaching a

00:06:01   tipping point on the legalized marijuana

00:06:04   or decriminalized marijuana it seems to

00:06:09   me like it's tracking a couple of years

00:06:11   behind gay marriage

00:06:16   yeah i think it's it's gonna be an

00:06:19   interesting topic because i think in

00:06:20   terms of people's opinion arm i think

00:06:23   we're entering towards legalization is

00:06:26   basically inevitable at this point in

00:06:29   terms of enforcement i think it's going

00:06:30   to be a lot more tricky than anybody has

00:06:32   ever imagined

00:06:34   I'm gonna listen to a few people talk on

00:06:36   the subject this one guy was on Terry

00:06:38   Gross recently i'd like to the next

00:06:40   draft and the incredible complexities

00:06:43   with legalizing the sale of marijuana

00:06:45   possibly tax again i'm making it legal

00:06:48   for certain purposes and not legal for

00:06:50   other purposes and somehow cutting out

00:06:52   the illegal trade is going to be pretty

00:06:54   complicated but you figure we have

00:06:56   decades of sort of setting up this

00:06:59   system so it's going to take probably

00:07:01   several years to sort of undo that I've

00:07:06   always felt your two reasons sort of the

00:07:09   criminalisation of marijuana's just

00:07:12   doesn't make any sense to me the first

00:07:14   Morse basic reason is the fact that

00:07:16   people still to this day argue that it

00:07:18   shouldn't be used for medical purposes

00:07:20   and my philosophy on life is if you're

00:07:22   in a situation where you're unfortunate

00:07:24   enough to be in some kind of serious

00:07:26   pain or facing some serious ailment

00:07:28   whatever you can do to make yourself

00:07:31   feel better

00:07:32   sounds like the right move to me and for

00:07:34   any society that calls itself just to

00:07:36   try to block you from that for some sort

00:07:39   of vacuous moral reasons totally absurd

00:07:43   yeah there's a whole bunch of layers of

00:07:44   abstraction between in between support

00:07:49   in supporting the criminalization of

00:07:51   marijuana it's all abstract whereas a

00:07:55   lot of these you know like you said for

00:07:56   someone who's really in severe pain or

00:07:58   any kind of pain really and and you know

00:08:00   it's it's a completely practical

00:08:03   application there is no abstraction that

00:08:05   when when I smoked this stuff or eat it

00:08:08   or however you consume it I feel better

00:08:11   ah you know and for some people the

00:08:14   difference you know if it's if it's

00:08:15   alleviation of pain it's not you know

00:08:17   more than just recreational wow this

00:08:20   makes the matrix a lot more interesting

00:08:24   and a funny part is even for that second

00:08:27   example you know they're there really

00:08:29   are two Americas when it comes to drug

00:08:33   legalization especially with marijuana

00:08:34   because you know every day i'm reading

00:08:36   headlines about the decriminalization of

00:08:38   marijuana but living here in the bay

00:08:41   area for the last 30 years or whatever I

00:08:44   it seems like it's been three

00:08:46   criminalized for white guys with plenty

00:08:49   of money

00:08:49   the whole time right i mean i

00:08:51   accidentally inhaled Jim natal ski style

00:08:55   from taxi time around first Internet

00:08:58   boom and then Cosmo started delivering

00:09:02   me some munchies and I accidentally sort

00:09:05   of state in that state of mind for about

00:09:06   a decade out there was certainly some

00:09:09   minuses to it i left revenue models out

00:09:13   of almost every project I did during

00:09:14   that decade but i don't remember any

00:09:18   police storming down my door and say hey

00:09:20   that smell

00:09:21   you know they just said you know

00:09:22   whatever whatever it takes for you to

00:09:24   enjoy your movie or to enjoy this

00:09:27   cyclist from cosmo having to pedal up

00:09:30   your steep hill to bring us a small bag

00:09:33   of chips on a rainy night and some of

00:09:35   this stuff is just not man I you know

00:09:39   and and I feel like you and I are a lot

00:09:41   alike in that we can get into this in a

00:09:43   bit too but in terms of you know that

00:09:45   our attention and the way that the web

00:09:47   seems interested you know it's just

00:09:49   seems built for our type of mines and

00:09:51   how many tabs you have open right now

00:09:53   well since we're talking none but at any

00:09:56   given time probably about 60 right at no

00:09:59   this is that's how my I mean that's it's

00:10:02   just the nature of the game if you're a

00:10:03   like the link blogger you know if you do

00:10:07   that sort of just the way your mind

00:10:08   works and yet the other day I was

00:10:10   started on cool site and he had linked

00:10:12   to this unbelievable blog adjust about

00:10:16   William Friedkin's 1977 movie sorcerer

00:10:20   which I've never seen which is amazing

00:10:22   and but it's apparently one of the

00:10:24   reasons I've never seen it is a nice

00:10:27   william friedkin director of the French

00:10:29   Connection and the exercise i think

00:10:31   those are the two movies he had made

00:10:32   right before this so he's really

00:10:33   literally at the top of his game

00:10:35   and some kind of crime caper in Central

00:10:39   America

00:10:40   sounds great but uh it's all locked up

00:10:44   in legal problems because it was a joint

00:10:46   production of paramount universal and as

00:10:49   of today both power mountain universal

00:10:51   say they don't know who want it and so

00:10:53   there's no there is a DVD release but

00:10:55   there's no blu-ray and there's no like

00:10:58   it's even hard to just screen it or get

00:11:01   it get a good print of it because

00:11:03   neither of the two Studios is claiming

00:11:05   ownership so he's freaking want this

00:11:07   movie to you know to be treated the way

00:11:08   it should and he's filed lawsuits just

00:11:11   to get them to just reveal the paperwork

00:11:13   that says here's who owns it he doesn't

00:11:14   even want to make money from it anymore

00:11:15   he just wants it out there but anyway I

00:11:19   got sucked into this blog that's just

00:11:21   about this movie and then one of the

00:11:22   stories that freakin tells is that he

00:11:26   flew back they did all the shooting on

00:11:28   location in Central America and flew

00:11:30   back to Texas at El Paso Texas on a

00:11:34   little prop airplane and one of the

00:11:36   stunt men wanted to come to at the last

00:11:38   second he's like sure we broom hop in

00:11:40   guys Hopsin and he's just carrying like

00:11:41   a little briefcase they land and the cop

00:11:44   just some cops greets him at the airport

00:11:46   I guess freaking umar the guy said he

00:11:47   was a fan of The Exorcist or something

00:11:49   that he's talking and he's really in a

00:11:50   real friendly but all of a sudden this

00:11:52   German Shepherd at the airport goes nuts

00:11:54   and scratching at this airplane and ends

00:11:57   up that the dog is is going nuts because

00:11:58   of this stunt man's briefcase and it

00:12:01   ends up the stuntman had had some

00:12:03   marijuana in it previously but took it

00:12:06   out knowing hey I'm getting on an

00:12:08   airplane flying internationally keno can

00:12:10   have marijuana in here took it out but

00:12:12   it was just literally like a few grains

00:12:15   you know just at home but you can't

00:12:16   leaves what are they but i'm just-just

00:12:19   dust like dust from having had marijuana

00:12:21   in there like nothing that you could

00:12:24   even not even like an amount that you

00:12:25   could smoke but all of a sudden like the

00:12:29   cop they got locked up freaking got

00:12:30   locked up everybody was in the plane got

00:12:32   locked up for hours it took likes

00:12:36   attorneys from Universal Pictures likes

00:12:38   to do attorneys to get freaking out and

00:12:40   they kept the stunt guy locked up for

00:12:42   two weeks

00:12:43   I I guess he didn't end up going to jail

00:12:46   or anything because i had at

00:12:48   he didn't really have it wasn't like

00:12:49   possession you know it was just

00:12:51   something that the dog smelled that it

00:12:53   was like remnants and I thought you know

00:12:55   there's all sorts of stories of people

00:12:57   who are in prison for for drugs you know

00:13:01   people with lifetime sentences of their

00:13:02   true tragedies I mean now a stuntman in

00:13:04   1977 being locked up for two weeks in El

00:13:07   Paso jail is far far far from the most

00:13:09   tragic case of Miss justice in the

00:13:12   criminalisation of drugs but it just

00:13:13   shows how absurd it is

00:13:15   yeah it's also i mean in a weird way

00:13:20   it's also shows that we expect sometimes

00:13:23   to enjoy the output of a person's work

00:13:25   like a stuntman or NFL football player

00:13:28   but then or a cyclist riding up 72

00:13:31   mountains and two days in the Tour de

00:13:34   France and then we're totally shocked

00:13:35   beyond belief that there was any

00:13:37   artificial substances used in that quest

00:13:39   you know so you know if if your stock

00:13:44   man in the seventies doing your own

00:13:45   stunts like riding a motorcycle operable

00:13:47   wall and landed on your head

00:13:49   it's like my god take a couple hits we

00:13:51   understand it's for my pleasure now and

00:13:53   that's exactly like that the whole

00:13:55   freakin style was doing all the stunts

00:13:57   for practical and and apparently is a

00:14:00   super dangerous shoot response and stuff

00:14:03   like that it it there's apparently part

00:14:06   of a thing in the movie I I don't want

00:14:08   to and I don't I don't know that much

00:14:09   about it but it's that there's a it's

00:14:11   about these trucks that are using for

00:14:13   the caper and one of the trucks is there

00:14:15   or the truck

00:14:16   I don't know is his name sorcerer it's

00:14:19   like you know like the like the name of

00:14:20   a ship like the name of the truck its

00:14:22   sorcerer but apparently it's it the

00:14:25   movie one of the reasons is not that

00:14:26   well-known in addition to the legal

00:14:28   problems that it did pretty poorly at

00:14:30   the box office and one of the reasons is

00:14:32   that apparently a lot of people think

00:14:33   that the title through everybody off

00:14:35   because its previous movie was the

00:14:36   exorcist the new one was named sorcerer

00:14:39   and people just went in thinking it was

00:14:41   about like the supernatural or something

00:14:42   you know like about some kind of wizard

00:14:45   or something like that and you know

00:14:47   instead it's it's like a dirty gritty

00:14:50   crime caper but the title had set

00:14:53   expectations so far afield that it

00:14:56   damaged the box office

00:14:58   I've never heard of it and I'm a big

00:14:59   freaking fan I don't know how that

00:15:01   happen i'll see if you can get it out

00:15:05   there so I let's talk in the publishing

00:15:10   debut you've been blogging when did you

00:15:13   first start blogging ah let's see i

00:15:16   first started blogging in the nineties i

00:15:18   think in your times have an article on

00:15:20   me it was all about how people use

00:15:23   weblog to share links and like for the

00:15:26   late nineties middle 890 so I've been

00:15:28   doing it for a while while riding is

00:15:31   sort of always been the throughput of my

00:15:33   whole life all the way they had

00:15:35   different careers in different focal

00:15:37   points aside from not always sort of

00:15:39   used writing us let me anything I want

00:15:42   to keep going so what was your what was

00:15:43   the name of your first blog my first

00:15:46   blog was called David ethics right

00:15:47   that's the 1i remember so they started

00:15:51   out as a personal blog sort of like

00:15:52   Dianetics with me as the god then it

00:15:56   evolved into a technology newsletter but

00:15:59   i actually used to send out a handful of

00:16:03   technology related links and headlines

00:16:05   and blurbs much like I do it next draft

00:16:07   for generals now to about your CEO that

00:16:10   I worked with because during my time on

00:16:14   the internet I've also my half of my

00:16:16   life is about the writing and creative

00:16:17   stuff and the other half is about

00:16:18   investing in and working with startups

00:16:20   so it started out as a business thing

00:16:22   where I'd find these articles and send

00:16:24   them out and they would go to serve a

00:16:26   group of Internet professionals that I

00:16:28   worked with a sort of spread from there

00:16:30   at one point they were about 25,000 or

00:16:33   so subscribers which back then during

00:16:35   the early part of the first boom was

00:16:37   pretty widespread but there weren't that

00:16:39   many of us out here again and as time

00:16:42   passed on in the room went to Boston

00:16:45   with sort of i basically became like a

00:16:46   daily obituary writer

00:16:48   yeah i just wasn't that into it anymore

00:16:50   and also i felt like i was writing about

00:16:53   technology because I with the industry i

00:16:55   was in but my passion is much more with

00:16:58   more general i'm into technology and the

00:17:01   sick addict like you are in like you

00:17:03   know a lot of us are I got my 70 tabs

00:17:06   and i'm always on and I'm controlled by

00:17:09   these devices but my actual area of

00:17:12   interest goes beyond our technology

00:17:16   quite a bit so I sort of like more

00:17:18   general news I've always sort of been

00:17:19   obsessed with whatever the big story is

00:17:22   of the moment I want to counterpunch off

00:17:25   that man who who got started first your

00:17:28   card key

00:17:30   oh I'm not or do not know i think it's a

00:17:32   blogger definitely i'm pretty sure

00:17:34   Jason's it because i was doing

00:17:36   newsletter back then but I definitely

00:17:39   was one of the early blogger users for

00:17:41   sure

00:17:42   do you remember of which other blogs

00:17:46   most inspired you like kind of gave you

00:17:48   that you know what I could do that arm

00:17:52   you know definitely Kottke I mean I've

00:17:56   always felt that that was a really

00:17:57   similar one you know when Jason does a

00:18:00   redesign I check it out when I'm

00:18:03   designing something always loved ones

00:18:04   Jason John usually picks cool fonts and

00:18:07   a good length of the post i had similar

00:18:10   interests that I have you know i've also

00:18:14   definitely inspired by daring fireball

00:18:16   over the years you'll be covered

00:18:17   slightly different things but you have

00:18:20   certain techniques that you have a very

00:18:22   different sort of online personality

00:18:24   that I do a lot of its really effective

00:18:26   so I try to learn that as well in the

00:18:30   early days it was almost anybody share

00:18:32   I mean it's interesting that I before

00:18:34   the internet came for the web so we got

00:18:37   going every semester or so in college I

00:18:41   used to write up a 30 page document

00:18:43   about what I was up to or some jokes or

00:18:45   essentially a a blog but in sections and

00:18:48   I printed out bind it and sent to like

00:18:51   30 reporting my friends and I was also

00:18:52   called diabetics well I was sort of

00:18:55   irritating my my closest friends for

00:18:58   years before the web came sort of

00:19:00   blogging at them against their will

00:19:03   and when I first saw blogging I just

00:19:06   immediately realized hey this is going

00:19:08   to be really fun for me but be this is

00:19:10   just gonna this medium is gonna

00:19:11   absolutely unleash an unbelievable

00:19:14   creative revolution and that that's what

00:19:17   I was most excited about during the

00:19:18   first boom even though most people were

00:19:19   talking about sentences that have the

00:19:22   word billion and a couple times but I

00:19:24   still best the most exciting part about

00:19:26   this whether it's Twitter whether it's a

00:19:28   wordpress blog whether it's these weird

00:19:31   tumblr things that people have these

00:19:32   bizarre passions that they want to share

00:19:34   our you know I think the sharing of

00:19:38   health information is something that is

00:19:40   so you know all of us have like 20

00:19:42   things that we feel like we're the only

00:19:43   people who asked that and you know when

00:19:47   you're suffering from something you go

00:19:48   on the web and you realize there's like

00:19:49   a million people out there who felt like

00:19:51   you were one time or another and for

00:19:53   some reason it felt comparing compelled

00:19:55   to share that just the simple fact that

00:19:57   you can put stuff out there and

00:20:00   everybody can read it or see it or watch

00:20:02   it or listen to it depending on what you

00:20:04   know if it's a something you wrote or

00:20:07   music or video or something that it's

00:20:08   still there but it's the most amazing

00:20:10   thing

00:20:10   yeah i mean its total remarkable you

00:20:13   know some projects you doing you have

00:20:16   you know not as many readers as you want

00:20:18   or you know like right now you're on a

00:20:20   big role and you have a ton of readers

00:20:21   but you know people i think sometimes

00:20:24   people get down on themselves while we

00:20:25   only had a hundred people read this or

00:20:27   50 people read this or even sort of more

00:20:30   middle-level bloggers that might have

00:20:32   you know i got ten thousand reads it

00:20:34   seems small in this day and age was it

00:20:37   seems so exciting during the first boom

00:20:39   oh my god i built something or I wrote

00:20:41   something like thousands of people are

00:20:43   reading it that's crazy

00:20:44   now we sort of become dead into that

00:20:46   because the numbers on the Internet are

00:20:49   so big a billion users of this and

00:20:51   hundred my use of that but sometimes

00:20:53   when I go to like out in San Francisco

00:20:55   we have a theater called her spirit or a

00:20:57   lot of the famous authors come to get

00:20:58   interviewed now and I'd say it holds no

00:21:01   maybe 1,500 people or so and every now

00:21:04   that I'll just sit in one of those

00:21:06   theaters not think like

00:21:08   you know if I think it's something to

00:21:10   write right now even if it doesn't do

00:21:13   that well there's probably a chance

00:21:14   about this many people are read it in a

00:21:17   couple hours after i choose to post it

00:21:19   and that's just incredibly powerful and

00:21:22   i don't mean that an ego sense like you

00:21:24   know wow look at how great I am I can

00:21:26   get 1500 or fifteen thousand readers I

00:21:29   just mean the idea that the the barrier

00:21:31   between sharing your ideas is has gone

00:21:35   down so far and with a little

00:21:38   serendipity and a little merit you can

00:21:40   actually have people that you have no

00:21:42   contact with sort of experience what you

00:21:46   think on a topic and maybe best case and

00:21:48   are you start ripping about their

00:21:49   opinion on it in response to you and I I

00:21:53   thought that the coolest part about the

00:21:54   web the first day I fired up a browser

00:21:57   and i sold the festival's part about the

00:21:58   web now

00:21:59   yeah it's absolutely i mean and it it

00:22:03   went from a attention being an

00:22:09   artificially limited resource or maybe

00:22:12   not attention isn't quite the right word

00:22:13   but the the number of platforms were

00:22:16   artificially limited to being as almost

00:22:18   a zero-sum type situation and here's

00:22:21   what i mean by that let's say that I

00:22:23   want to do what what I'm do like right

00:22:26   as quickly as possible let's say when

00:22:29   traditional terms daily or weekly about

00:22:32   what's going on in technology and I want

00:22:36   to have let's just say a hundred

00:22:38   thousand people read what I write

00:22:40   there were only a handful of gigs like

00:22:43   that that that people pre-internet that

00:22:46   people could have right you could write

00:22:47   for a major newspaper but even in that

00:22:51   era really a lot of the major newspapers

00:22:53   weren't National Right The New York

00:22:55   Times really only became a national

00:22:56   newspaper i think in the nineties sort

00:22:59   of coincident with the rise of the

00:23:01   Internet

00:23:02   I mean it was certainly famous and

00:23:04   certainly had a very high circulation

00:23:06   but it really was a new york newspaper

00:23:11   I mean USA Today was only invented in

00:23:13   what 1984 something like that i was

00:23:15   associated with Reagan and didn't really

00:23:19   run never really ran the type of stuff

00:23:21   that i right

00:23:22   you know that's more there just was no

00:23:25   way I mean what I maybe I could you know

00:23:27   how many people can write about

00:23:28   technology for time or Newsweek or

00:23:30   something like that right there were a

00:23:32   handful of gigs where you could have a

00:23:34   lot of readers and write about this

00:23:36   stuff and that's there was no way to

00:23:38   invent your own i often i also think

00:23:41   about the fact that when i was in

00:23:42   college i was at the student newspaper

00:23:44   at drexel and I think we used to print I

00:23:47   is the hidden memories are hazy but I

00:23:50   think maybe like 3,000 issues a week it

00:23:52   was a weekly newspaper and we printed

00:23:54   somewhere in the low single thousands

00:23:56   you know I don't know two three four

00:23:57   thousand issues and it was a huge and

00:24:03   and you know and you realize when you

00:24:04   print that many that a lot of those it's

00:24:06   not that there's three four thousand

00:24:07   students at the school it was you know

00:24:09   people would pick one up monday been

00:24:11   reading in class and then they pick up

00:24:12   another copy on tuesday in a different

00:24:14   class you know and throw them out

00:24:16   I don't know how many students really

00:24:17   read the thing let's just say i don't

00:24:18   know a thousand but it was a huge deal a

00:24:21   monumental effort every week just to

00:24:23   distribute coming four thousand copies

00:24:25   of ik a 20-30 page newspaper is an

00:24:29   enormous amount of newspapers like it

00:24:33   was actually like a huge thing and that

00:24:35   was just for a small university's

00:24:37   student newspaper to reaching I don't

00:24:38   know thousand students a week you you

00:24:40   just had this entire expensive and and

00:24:44   heavy paper just coming in week after

00:24:48   week after week I also think there's

00:24:51   something really uniquely cool about the

00:24:55   relationship between a blogger or some

00:24:58   other kind of internet writer and his or

00:25:00   her audience because i realize this will

00:25:03   be in the early early days when I first

00:25:06   launched David ethics it appeared in a

00:25:08   couple of applications i think with the

00:25:10   new york post and the San Jose Mercury

00:25:12   News back when they were sort of the

00:25:13   paper record

00:25:14   the valley out here and also jason cocky

00:25:19   link to it and i'll never forget on that

00:25:22   day when I looked at my they weren't

00:25:24   real time stats back then so I still

00:25:25   have some semblance of control over my

00:25:27   minute to minute of my life but at the

00:25:30   end of the day or the next morning I

00:25:31   looked at the stats to see how many more

00:25:33   people had come cocky door and those two

00:25:36   other big publications with you know

00:25:39   multi-million dollar budgets behind them

00:25:41   was pretty inspiring and you know it's

00:25:44   you

00:25:45   we know intuitively why right because

00:25:46   its people are not reading just a brand

00:25:50   when they're reading some blogs are

00:25:51   reading that person and when that person

00:25:54   shares a link there saying hey trust me

00:25:56   this is going to be worth your time if i

00:25:58   have too many times when it's not with

00:26:00   your time going to stop reading me so I

00:26:02   have a lot of stake here to make sure

00:26:04   i'm giving you something I think you'll

00:26:05   like

00:26:06   so the likelihood somebody clicking on a

00:26:08   blog link vs clicking on a newspaper

00:26:10   link you know is so much higher right

00:26:13   and also just signing up once they get

00:26:15   there you know it's like a jason said

00:26:16   this is good day for John say this is

00:26:18   good let's do it let's give it a try

00:26:20   because we're actually in a weird way

00:26:23   friends with them it's not just some

00:26:25   brand telling me this is cool this is

00:26:27   not restaurant review from a paper I've

00:26:29   heard of this is my friend saying dude

00:26:31   you're in all of the pasta this place go

00:26:34   check out

00:26:35   yeah and part of it is it implicit and

00:26:40   it comes out of almost the subconscious

00:26:42   of of the publication whether it's a

00:26:45   one-man operation like mine and khakis

00:26:48   and David ethics or at an institution

00:26:51   like a newspaper which is what do you

00:26:54   really want the person who's reading

00:26:56   with this thing to do and it the

00:26:59   newspapers even today what they really

00:27:01   want you to do is stay on their site

00:27:03   stay here read another one load another

00:27:06   page click this you know it'sit's you

00:27:10   know it but in the nineties it was it

00:27:12   was an endemic I mean it was almost it

00:27:15   almost killed maybe I think it might

00:27:17   have been the leading cause of death for

00:27:19   a lot of those portals right the whole

00:27:23   the whole idea of portals was

00:27:26   get them to come in and stay here right

00:27:29   and it almost killed yahoo right i mean

00:27:31   yahoo certainly could have been google

00:27:32   because yahoo started with you know cool

00:27:35   side of the day and go to yahoo to find

00:27:40   something else cool on the internet

00:27:42   right that's what Yahoo was in 1994

00:27:45   go-to guy i don't know i want to i want

00:27:47   something to interest me

00:27:49   okay i know i'll go to yahoo and they'll

00:27:51   they'll send me somewhere good when they

00:27:54   shifted to this strategy of people come

00:27:57   to yahoo let's keep them on yahoo is

00:27:59   when they they they almost choked to

00:28:01   death on whereas you know like cocky

00:28:04   when you go to cocky he really wants you

00:28:06   to click the links right i mean when

00:28:08   dead when you come to my site I want you

00:28:10   to go and read the thing i'm linking to

00:28:12   and I trust that you will you know and

00:28:14   it's it's super satisfying to me it is

00:28:18   you know it almost you know like when I

00:28:22   link to somebody and it breaks their

00:28:23   website it it does mean I'm not glad

00:28:26   that people's websites occasionally

00:28:27   break I but I'm glad that so many that

00:28:30   it's just like it it's like almost I can

00:28:34   feel it that people really do follow the

00:28:36   links like I want you to go away right i

00:28:40   mean I definitely feel the same about

00:28:41   next draft you know I stand that out

00:28:43   with the 10 what I think are the most

00:28:44   fascinating stories of the day you know

00:28:47   it the one of the key measurements I

00:28:49   mean of course I measure opens and

00:28:51   forwards and shares and stuff like that

00:28:53   but probably my key measurement of

00:28:55   weather that day was a success was how

00:28:58   many links how many legs got hit Allah

00:29:01   and were there any that really stood out

00:29:03   and you know got several thousand klicks

00:29:04   that both made a difference for my

00:29:07   readership obviously and also sort of

00:29:09   made a difference a noticeable

00:29:10   difference on the stats page for that

00:29:12   person i'm linking to you know said wow

00:29:14   this is pretty cool especially if it's

00:29:16   sort of an unusual article you know

00:29:17   occasionally Jason cocky and I indicate

00:29:22   each other and he'll syndicator blur

00:29:24   about an extract once we can also

00:29:26   indicate one of his lips once a week and

00:29:29   next draft and when we do that there are

00:29:33   there occasionally we're looking to

00:29:35   stuff that's not necessarily that

00:29:36   popular yet

00:29:37   and it's fun occasionally have seen

00:29:40   between the two of us i can pretty

00:29:42   quickly go to the most popular item on

00:29:44   that site you know so that's another

00:29:46   thing you feel like you have some

00:29:47   influence of I think you're gonna think

00:29:49   this is cool and you didn't think this

00:29:52   was cool

00:29:53   I'm but the whole the whole blogger

00:29:55   mentality is sort of built on it's not

00:29:58   built on how many page views do I get

00:30:00   how many ads too i sell its really built

00:30:03   on you know i'm i'm trying to be

00:30:07   interesting to I'm trying to get you to

00:30:09   like me you know and by I'll give you

00:30:12   whatever it takes for you to sort of be

00:30:13   my friend and the love me it sounds

00:30:15   crazy but I think that's more of the the

00:30:17   goal so the web is about saying here's

00:30:20   these cool stuff check it out so it

00:30:22   makes sense every blogger would

00:30:23   immediately go to that model because

00:30:24   they want to be they want to have these

00:30:27   virtual friends they want have these

00:30:29   people that count on them that there's

00:30:31   something big the point him in the right

00:30:32   direction they'll be one of the first

00:30:34   stop they come to something happens if

00:30:37   there's a big story that breaks in the

00:30:39   macworld you know i'll probably go to

00:30:41   daring fireball first being your

00:30:43   internet click over to that big story

00:30:45   because well but a lot of times to my

00:30:48   personal pacing and style is such that

00:30:51   i'm usually not first and sometimes I'm

00:30:54   very far behind you are at least two

00:30:56   have anything substantial to say about

00:30:58   something

00:30:59   yeah my favorite example of that is is

00:31:02   whenever there's an apple event my

00:31:04   traffic goes through the roof especially

00:31:06   you know like live while it's happening

00:31:08   but I don't do the live blog thing and

00:31:11   because I'm you know most of the time on

00:31:13   there in the audience and I'm listening

00:31:15   and I'm taking notes i'm not posting

00:31:17   anything so at button but the site goes

00:31:21   nuts and it's just people reloading add

00:31:24   the homepage of daring fireball with

00:31:27   last night's last item at the top over

00:31:30   and over and over again waiting for me

00:31:31   to say something right and it is good in

00:31:35   a sense it's it's an honor and no and if

00:31:38   i had a pageview based revenue model I i

00:31:41   would have to have some family I guess

00:31:43   I'd have to live blog or something to

00:31:45   take advantage of that

00:31:46   but it's kind of cool because it's a

00:31:49   very nice knowing that the site is going

00:31:51   nuts is a very nice sort of implicit

00:31:56   deadline like a get your get your

00:31:59   thoughts together but get them up there

00:32:00   people are waiting you know like I don't

00:32:03   want to disappoint these people sort of

00:32:05   feeling in my gut

00:32:07   ya know I think that's a that feeling of

00:32:10   feeling like you're part of this

00:32:13   conversation or community and people are

00:32:15   sort of waiting to hear you chime in on

00:32:17   something is a pretty powerful a pretty

00:32:20   powerful feeling that definitely and my

00:32:23   goal with next draft basically is that

00:32:26   when a big news story breaks in a

00:32:28   presidential election was yesterday at

00:32:30   the academy awards were last night the

00:32:32   Super Bowl is Sunday that one of the

00:32:35   stops people assume on their day and

00:32:38   maybe even during the event there

00:32:39   thinking I wonder able to have something

00:32:41   weird or funny to say about that moment

00:32:43   tomorrow i'm looking forward to seeing

00:32:45   what he says about it and that feeling

00:32:48   is definitely what drives me and I

00:32:50   almost feel the responsibilities do it

00:32:52   but that makes me feel sort of more

00:32:54   connected with the news and were

00:32:56   connected with you the readers and I

00:32:59   will sort of news obsessed so I having a

00:33:02   take on big news events is in my DNA

00:33:05   so sharing those is sort of like a

00:33:07   pleasure for me yeah there were two of a

00:33:09   kind of that regard

00:33:10   like I remember one of the happiest

00:33:14   little things of like my high school

00:33:16   years was that you know you get your we

00:33:19   got our homeroom teachers assigned

00:33:21   randomly and I got mr. chica he was

00:33:25   great teacher to he was a social studies

00:33:27   teacher those top current events and

00:33:29   this is about 50 minutes into suburb

00:33:31   about 50 miles outside Philly but he had

00:33:33   a daily subscription to his office of

00:33:35   the Philly Enquirer which was so a there

00:33:38   was a daily newspaper right there when I

00:33:40   got to homeroom every day and he was you

00:33:42   know IM it i forget what he did but it

00:33:45   was you know shared it with you know

00:33:47   anybody in homeroom wanted to do it and

00:33:49   none of the other kids wanted to read a

00:33:50   newspaper so it wasn't like I had to

00:33:51   fight over the sections it was like I

00:33:53   had my own subscription to the philly

00:33:56   inquirer every day

00:33:57   and it was just great to me that was

00:33:59   just great because it was so clearly a

00:34:01   better newspaper than the the reading

00:34:04   eagle the local newspaper and the

00:34:08   Enquirer and especially in the eighties

00:34:10   had a host of great colonists just been

00:34:14   included in the you know the great sense

00:34:16   of the the traditional sense of being a

00:34:18   newspaper columnist like guys who would

00:34:21   write about anything you know beach from

00:34:23   and women did it

00:34:25   current events you know politics to you

00:34:28   know local stuff remember one time I was

00:34:30   a great column in Philadelphia group

00:34:33   crazy something average city I stuff

00:34:35   like this but we have this big big

00:34:38   Street it goes too big

00:34:40   north south boulevard is broad street

00:34:42   and broad street on both sides north and

00:34:45   south that separated by city hall north

00:34:46   broad street is north of city hall south

00:34:48   broad street south of city hall there's

00:34:53   a median strip so two lanes of traffic

00:34:55   or two or three lanes of traffic each

00:34:57   way and then one lane in the middle

00:34:59   that's empty in south philly you're

00:35:04   allowed to park there

00:35:05   it's between yellow lines you clearly by

00:35:08   the painting of the line should not be

00:35:10   able to park there but if you do you

00:35:11   will not get a ticket and so although

00:35:14   it's like three miles from city hall

00:35:15   down to you go down broad street and

00:35:17   then you end up at the sports complex

00:35:19   for the phillies and eagles play and

00:35:21   broad street its parking on the curbs

00:35:23   and parking in the middle of the street

00:35:25   if you park in the middle of broad

00:35:27   street north philly just one block one

00:35:29   block up above city hall you'll get a

00:35:32   ticket within five minutes and i'll

00:35:34   probably call a tow truck and it said

00:35:37   there was one columnist he wouldn't

00:35:38   write about it every week but maybe once

00:35:40   a year so he would you know he would

00:35:41   just like an annual tradition was he

00:35:43   would take one of the Inquirer's company

00:35:44   cars parking on south broad for 24 hours

00:35:48   see if you got a ticket never did and

00:35:50   then park it on north broad and the

00:35:52   enquirer building happened to be on

00:35:54   north broad and then time how long it

00:35:56   took to get a ticket and that to me that

00:35:59   was I just love stuff like that the way

00:36:00   that he would do it like once a year

00:36:02   Oh to me that was that's what I wanted

00:36:05   to do when I grew up

00:36:06   yeah weird way kind of is yeah my my

00:36:10   news

00:36:10   childhood was sort of more on the

00:36:12   international side than on the local

00:36:14   side I mean I we just our religion on

00:36:18   weekends was the sunday talk shows me

00:36:20   and my parents watched all the news if I

00:36:23   removed to a new city the first thing i

00:36:25   do is get cable and turn on Bernard Sean

00:36:27   see and feel like I wasn't home when I

00:36:30   was in college a typical phone

00:36:31   conversation with me my dad would the

00:36:33   phone ringing I'd say hello need saying

00:36:36   that's cooking tonight not much you'd

00:36:38   say everybody I think this girl blowjob

00:36:40   guy and basically now a few decades

00:36:44   later he calls and said that's cooking

00:36:46   and I said not much how are the kids

00:36:48   good battle buddy i think this Putin guy

00:36:50   basically are really a huge part of our

00:36:53   communication was about news is always

00:36:55   sort of been it's just part of our

00:36:57   family dialogues I've always sort of

00:36:59   been pretty news obsessed and following

00:37:02   it certainly more on the national scale

00:37:04   or international then where did you grow

00:37:06   up I grew up in nearest outside of San

00:37:10   Francisco and sheriff I'll so what was

00:37:11   the big newspaper I I mean our

00:37:15   television newspaper called the marine

00:37:16   IJ but most people there still remain

00:37:18   paper was the San Francisco Chronicle

00:37:19   right and a big big fat sunday edition

00:37:24   yeah we had a pretty big fat sunday dish

00:37:26   we have the pink section for

00:37:28   entertainment and the sports section was

00:37:30   actually green then call the sporting

00:37:32   green so I thought that was when people

00:37:35   ask me why I have such an excellent eye

00:37:37   for user interface i have to give

00:37:39   credits the chronicle making their

00:37:41   sporting green green

00:37:42   this seems like the sort of thing that

00:37:44   you have a strong opinion i know i did

00:37:45   which which of the network news

00:37:49   broadcasts was your go-to network news

00:37:51   broadcast you know this year it's you

00:37:55   mean like during the election now like

00:37:56   in the old days

00:37:57   Oh in the old days you know as soon as

00:37:59   we have CNN definitely soon as Ted

00:38:02   Turner hooked us up with that 24-hour

00:38:04   intravenous feed that was it now

00:38:07   my family was either CNN or wheel of

00:38:10   fortune everything I learned about life

00:38:12   is to learn CNN wheel of fortune learned

00:38:14   about society from CNN learned

00:38:16   everything I know

00:38:17   business from wheel of fortune when

00:38:20   somebody would buy a vowel after they

00:38:22   already knew the answer so we'll

00:38:24   fortunate my family that was like always

00:38:28   a teachable moments like look at this

00:38:30   guy but you're buying a round for or the

00:38:33   what's the other big mistake other big

00:38:34   mistake is when you know that he knows

00:38:36   the he knows the answer and you there's

00:38:39   forties you know there's going to be

00:38:41   forties and any weights it on like two

00:38:43   hundred dollars like he gets like 200

00:38:45   and then goes for the tea and only gets

00:38:47   800 bucks it's like no now you you know

00:38:49   do the end and spin again to get a

00:38:51   bigger number for the tea right yeah no

00:38:55   wheel of fortune with in many ways a

00:38:57   pivotal pivotal part of our family we

00:38:59   have a role we couldn't watch TV during

00:39:01   dinner so we are average dinner length

00:39:03   was about seven minutes and once wheel

00:39:07   of fortune came man that combination of

00:39:09   the letters the prizes the blonde chick

00:39:13   turning the letters like there was

00:39:15   something for everybody in my family

00:39:17   that really just went right out the

00:39:18   window spent the next four or five years

00:39:20   watching eating dinner on a wheel of

00:39:23   fortune Glenn Fleischmann and I were

00:39:24   talking about game shows because he was

00:39:25   on when he was on the talk show a few

00:39:27   weeks ago because he was on Jeopardy

00:39:28   right on and we and I just an amount of

00:39:31   their time i will fortunately i'm

00:39:32   thinking about it more and more i really

00:39:33   do think I never really gave it that

00:39:35   much thought but I do think there really

00:39:37   is something to the assist sustained

00:39:40   success perennial popularity of that

00:39:43   show that has something to do with the

00:39:44   fact that you at home can figure out the

00:39:48   answer so far in advance of the puzzle

00:39:52   actually being solved and it can create

00:39:55   a lot of drama especially if you're

00:39:57   uncertain whether the person spinning

00:39:59   also knows the answer I youth you

00:40:01   figured it out but you're not quite sure

00:40:03   if they did and and you can get like I'm

00:40:06   thinking like rocks i remember watching

00:40:07   life and they get like five grand they

00:40:09   get the big one and you'd be like our

00:40:12   are theirs for ours and then if you know

00:40:15   it was this incredible tension of please

00:40:17   say are so you get all this money

00:40:19   don't don't screw this up there's also

00:40:22   the aspect of the game were it

00:40:24   the game was slow enough that even if

00:40:26   you had no idea what the puzzle is if

00:40:28   somebody else in your house yelled it

00:40:29   out

00:40:30   you can almost mimic them close enough

00:40:31   to get your last letter out just a

00:40:33   fraction of a second after dated for

00:40:35   like 10 just beat me and it does it does

00:40:39   play in the Hitchcock's definition of

00:40:41   suspense a little bit or or you know

00:40:43   recipe for suspense which was that you

00:40:45   know like his are the analogy with our

00:40:47   story was imagine a scenario where

00:40:49   there's a terrorist who's going to put a

00:40:50   bomb in a movie packed movie theater

00:40:53   everybody's first instinct in a movie or

00:40:55   right trying to create suspensions to

00:40:57   have it be a surprise and that you so

00:41:00   sure these people in the audience and

00:41:01   then boom the bomb explodes and the

00:41:03   audience you watching the movie or just

00:41:06   as surprised by this explosion as the

00:41:09   people on screen and he said that's all

00:41:11   wrong

00:41:12   what you do is you show the people in

00:41:14   the theater and then you move the camera

00:41:16   down underneath a little girl and you

00:41:18   show that the bomb is under her chair

00:41:20   then you go back to the audience now you

00:41:23   the people watching the movie are filled

00:41:25   with suspense because you know there's a

00:41:27   bomb and the characters onscreen do not

00:41:31   thats suspense right and wheel of

00:41:33   fortune has that where you can know the

00:41:35   answer and you don't know if the the

00:41:38   contestants do basically the threat of

00:41:41   somebody buying an unnecessary valve was

00:41:43   that bomb under my seat at the dinner

00:41:46   table for about five years of my life I

00:41:51   don't know I feel like game shows are a

00:41:53   lost art yeah there's not there they

00:41:57   gone overboard with all the reality

00:41:59   stone yeah they've been replaced with

00:42:01   this mishmash of reality in and game

00:42:04   shows you know like I guess survivors

00:42:06   the canonical example which is sort of a

00:42:09   game shows sort of a reality show but

00:42:11   it's it's you know just the the Hokey

00:42:17   pneus of a traditional game show with

00:42:19   buzzers and wheels and they spin and the

00:42:21   fact that it's so clearly shot in the

00:42:23   studio in Los Angeles someone's lost i

00:42:27   do think in a strange way game shows

00:42:29   were a precursor to social networks

00:42:31   though how so

00:42:32   well I've always felt there certain

00:42:35   television shows are classes and

00:42:37   television shows that there's some

00:42:38   people when you read them on the web you

00:42:40   talking like I can't believe

00:42:42   leave you watch that dude there's no way

00:42:45   you sit through wheel of fortune

00:42:46   oh my god beverly hills of a you know I

00:42:50   mean a real housewives of beverly hills

00:42:52   that's so brutal how can you waste your

00:42:53   time with that entertainment and the

00:42:55   truth is you can't waste your time with

00:42:57   those forms of entertainment

00:42:58   unless this is a big unless unless

00:43:00   there's somebody else in the room with

00:43:02   you if you're with your wife and you're

00:43:04   watching The Real Housewives of Beverly

00:43:06   Hills the entire time all you're doing

00:43:08   is talking about how stupid all the

00:43:09   people are is the pleasure said it once

00:43:13   you're done talking about all of the

00:43:15   other couples you know and all the other

00:43:16   families and you've done all the gossip

00:43:18   for the day is like all right let's

00:43:19   figure out some other people we can

00:43:20   gossip about her a few hours save from

00:43:23   these shows even game shows even

00:43:25   jeopardy it's sort of fun when you're by

00:43:27   yourself but it's much more fun you're

00:43:28   competing in somebody gonna do if you

00:43:31   look at the early days of the web some

00:43:33   of it was sort of interesting but

00:43:35   there's just some stuff it's more fun to

00:43:38   laugh together and then to laugh Ilona

00:43:40   you know last night when google released

00:43:42   the new maps then you know there are

00:43:44   about 40 jokes in my twitter stream you

00:43:46   know I'm part of that like you part of

00:43:49   the strange community that forget the 12

00:43:51   12 12 concert forget any other TV that's

00:43:55   on forget the fact that it's you know

00:43:57   wednesday night might be a good time

00:44:00   just to relax with the family it's like

00:44:02   no this is a huge tectonic news story

00:44:05   right here the google maps app has been

00:44:08   approved but because there's this inside

00:44:11   conversation about this event that

00:44:14   happened where everybody sort of knows

00:44:15   the backstory every started to notice

00:44:17   the characters you can get away with

00:44:19   making jokes that are one line because

00:44:21   people know what you're referring to

00:44:23   it sort of adds to the story whereas

00:44:25   sitting home alone

00:44:27   it's in front of your screen reading

00:44:29   that the google app got releases like

00:44:30   okay great click what's next but because

00:44:33   there's a group of people talking about

00:44:35   it it adds so much value was i I see

00:44:39   what you mean what you're saying it is

00:44:40   that like a trashy TV show like Real

00:44:42   Housewives of insert any time where they

00:44:44   have the show is not really best seen as

00:44:48   a way to zone out in front of the TV in

00:44:50   the classic couch potato sense but

00:44:53   rather it's

00:44:55   it's fuel for conversation right i mean

00:44:59   i think that's this whole second screen

00:45:01   movement right in saying hey you can't

00:45:03   pay attention to something so ah you

00:45:06   know look down at your other screen and

00:45:08   and share that experience with somebody

00:45:10   right so now you can watch the real

00:45:11   housewives of beverly hills with me if

00:45:13   we're on IM or Twitter or whatever right

00:45:15   but I think in a really weird way the

00:45:17   television and this is one of the

00:45:19   reasons why I'm very protective of

00:45:20   television and I'm i like the web

00:45:23   television is like my blood and I am

00:45:26   very weary of how you know the new TV

00:45:29   revolution that it doesn't ruin and make

00:45:32   tea to interactive because when we were

00:45:34   kids

00:45:35   television was seen as this oh my

00:45:37   family's not talking to each other

00:45:39   anymore

00:45:40   everybody sitting in silence in the room

00:45:42   we used to sit around the dinner table

00:45:43   and have a conversation today TV has the

00:45:46   exact opposite role in our society today

00:45:48   if you close your laptop and just watch

00:45:51   a TV show it's actually one of the rare

00:45:53   times the whole family or a few people

00:45:55   my family are doing something together

00:45:57   at the same time and are focused on the

00:45:59   exact same topic and in a weird way it's

00:46:04   like it's a great show you're getting

00:46:06   nurtured another way right him if

00:46:07   somebody talks during madmen you're like

00:46:09   it stopped but if it's something stupid

00:46:13   like a game show or a reality show it's

00:46:15   actually your act to interacting with

00:46:17   the other person on the couch where if

00:46:21   the TV were off at least in my house

00:46:23   both laptops will be open and then be no

00:46:25   interaction with people right sort of

00:46:27   weird way I feel like that the TV is

00:46:29   this like 10 character on our couch that

00:46:32   I don't want to become so interactive

00:46:35   that it becomes that you can have

00:46:38   community while you're alone i want i

00:46:40   want that community still come from all

00:46:41   the other people on the couch

00:46:43   that's an interesting i kind of agree

00:46:44   with that and I never really thought

00:46:45   about it that way

00:46:47   I mean a take a quick break here and do

00:46:51   a sponsor to this Bank our sponsor of

00:46:54   the week

00:46:54   alright sure I want to thank our friends

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00:49:19   to be true normally two bucks

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00:50:27   show

00:50:27   so here's what I just one of the things

00:50:31   I want to talk to you about so you you

00:50:32   mentioned this a little bit earlier that

00:50:34   that David ethics kind of wound down

00:50:38   originally you know it was it was then

00:50:41   and this sort of thing does fascinate me

00:50:43   for four solo self you know just

00:50:46   self-absorbed reasons but we know the

00:50:49   fact that there aren't a lot of blogs

00:50:52   that have longevity people get into it i

00:50:55   mean there's not many people like cocky

00:50:57   who have been going for 14 consecutive

00:50:58   years

00:51:00   why--why'd why did you stop with David

00:51:04   ethics

00:51:04   I mean not that it ever was shuttered

00:51:07   but it ceased to be a daily thing

00:51:11   no it's a great question i mean i think

00:51:12   the short answer is that it was a

00:51:16   mistake

00:51:17   um

00:51:18   I think probably five to pick one

00:51:21   mistake that I could take back

00:51:23   moreover we do on the web that I just

00:51:25   had too many brands over the years and

00:51:30   that was sort of an example of that

00:51:31   where I i love launching new sites arm

00:51:35   and I love doing the branding and the

00:51:38   logos and the tangle mines and thinking

00:51:41   of something new when having a fresh

00:51:43   start you know I i invest in a work with

00:51:45   startups and the only part that I have

00:51:47   any passion for the first six months I

00:51:49   just love that sort of launching

00:51:51   products and whether they're my owner

00:51:53   helping with somebody else and you know

00:51:56   over the years I thought well if it's

00:51:59   stable medics is associated with

00:52:00   technology that's create something

00:52:02   called next draft that's associated with

00:52:04   news but i think because of that it

00:52:07   would always be times where we take

00:52:09   people a little bit of time to find me

00:52:11   again after that and it I probably had a

00:52:14   stronger stretch or less ups and downs

00:52:18   over the years if I had a single brand

00:52:19   the whole time if I just had Dave al.com

00:52:21   instead of de papel the musician getting

00:52:24   it first or I just stuck with David

00:52:28   ethics the whole way I probably think it

00:52:30   would have been fine to more of that

00:52:31   product into whatever I was into at the

00:52:33   time as opposed to launching and totally

00:52:36   new product but I've had so many brands

00:52:38   over the years but now that's all over

00:52:40   now I've been my wife has been telling

00:52:42   me this for years or were focused on

00:52:45   next draft i'm sticking with next draft

00:52:47   next draft is the brand and I said

00:52:49   you're not allowed to relaunch the new

00:52:51   thing i'm not i'm not allowed to rebrand

00:52:52   in anyway right

00:52:55   well why but why did why did you go away

00:52:58   from David expert just that you wanted

00:52:59   to switch to something new it was the

00:53:01   the appeal of a novel new thing and the

00:53:04   new logo in a new name and maybe it you

00:53:07   know slightly new format or something

00:53:08   like that was was irresistible

00:53:10   yeah i think that because it is sort of

00:53:14   the same thing I mean it in you know in

00:53:16   theory you know I mean it's the same

00:53:18   beat

00:53:18   it's the same sort of columnist style

00:53:21   injection of your personality into what

00:53:24   you're doing and links in Iowa

00:53:26   well I see the beat is a little the beat

00:53:27   and turn few me to the writing style for

00:53:29   sure in terms of the topic its Stefan

00:53:31   the next draft is all news right so that

00:53:34   that's the big difference why didn't I

00:53:35   just say hey I'm not just into

00:53:37   technology this is now David ethics is

00:53:39   going to be an all-news hope you stick

00:53:41   with me and if you do tell your friends

00:53:42   alright if I had it to do over again

00:53:44   that's what I would have done for sure

00:53:46   the reason i switch just because like I

00:53:47   told you I've always been obsessed with

00:53:49   news and these broader issues and i have

00:53:52   well i'm interested in technology and my

00:53:54   job is in technology I i feel i have

00:53:57   more interesting / potentially funny

00:54:00   things to say about other areas

00:54:02   ah so I've always wanted to branch out

00:54:05   into this up sort of broader news

00:54:08   category and next draft to sort of it

00:54:12   really isn't the sweet spot of you know

00:54:15   I wanted to focus on something that I

00:54:17   felt like I could do that my skills let

00:54:21   themselves go and I could do uniquely

00:54:22   well I can look at a hundred sites and a

00:54:25   couple hours and pick out 10 stories

00:54:28   that I'm really quite sure people will

00:54:29   be interested in

00:54:30   I can counter punch off those stories

00:54:33   either by writing something informative

00:54:35   or funny or both pretty quickly and

00:54:38   proofread it and I don't get nervous at

00:54:40   all about pressing send and go and i

00:54:44   really enjoyed that process so in a way

00:54:46   next job is really the perfect product

00:54:48   for my personality both my interest down

00:54:50   my skills whether i should have had one

00:54:54   brand all along i don't think there's

00:54:55   any doubt about that would have been a

00:54:57   better move and wiser people than both

00:54:59   of us have told me that that several

00:55:02   times it will take years and years of

00:55:04   our marriage

00:55:05   there's two issues i guess and play then

00:55:07   once the branding angle and I totally

00:55:10   see what you say there and I guess I

00:55:12   agree with your wife on but the second

00:55:15   one too is about format and that is one

00:55:18   of the things that the internet is

00:55:19   really a freed people like us because I

00:55:26   feel like I've been able to for Jenna

00:55:31   and you know a big part of it i've

00:55:32   copied a lot of it you know i mean cocky

00:55:34   was a huge influence on daring fireball

00:55:37   Dean Allen's text ism was an enormous

00:55:40   influence on daring fireball mark

00:55:44   pilgrims dive in the mark started a

00:55:49   little bit and it was also the same year

00:55:51   that damn fire bob did but you know is

00:55:54   sort of just the way he wrote about

00:55:55   technology was definitely an inspiration

00:55:57   but I think ultimately I've sort of over

00:56:02   especially after 34 years doing it sort

00:56:05   of wheeled it down i want to call it a

00:56:07   formula but there's like a a a voice to

00:56:11   a days or maybe even better to look at

00:56:12   it is like a week worth of content on

00:56:14   daring fireball that isn't really like

00:56:17   anything that came before it and it

00:56:18   certainly like nothing in print right i

00:56:21   mean like in the print days which is

00:56:23   probably what I would have done if I had

00:56:25   lived a generation earlier somehow try

00:56:27   to break into print but you were

00:56:30   hamstrung by format right if you're a

00:56:32   columnist for the new york times it

00:56:34   which is a great gig right but three

00:56:36   times a week every week you're writing

00:56:38   750 words and it's 750 words every time

00:56:42   or two times a week I guess we're as we

00:56:47   can i can write you know 34 little

00:56:49   pittie one line things and then without

00:56:52   a 2,000 word peace one right after

00:56:55   another

00:56:56   right now i find it interesting that

00:56:59   you've gone back to the the real quality

00:57:04   of a newsletter right it's a daily next

00:57:06   draft is a weekday once-a-day issue

00:57:10   right which is eight email and and an

00:57:15   iOS app right but it started as as email

00:57:18   and in either case like i said i guess

00:57:21   the Nugget the nugget of delivery is the

00:57:23   issue right and the issue contains 10

00:57:26   items so instead of sending out 10 posts

00:57:28   a day or 10 emails a day or 10 whatever

00:57:31   the day there's one issue and the issue

00:57:32   has 10 items right curious what drew you

00:57:36   back to that and it does seem like that

00:57:38   your natural format

00:57:40   yeah it's interesting when i first did

00:57:43   next draft as a younger man with more

00:57:45   red well i actually had a column and

00:57:47   lead of the

00:57:48   at the lead of the whole thing so I'd

00:57:51   write a column and add link to the day's

00:57:53   most interesting news

00:57:56   I just there's something about the for

00:57:59   my first of all email in general in

00:58:01   these days the app also i think there's

00:58:03   when I first relaunch next draft about a

00:58:07   year-and-a-half ago a friend of mine who

00:58:08   had used to read it said he should be

00:58:09   launched next draft would love it they

00:58:11   need and I kept saying I don't get it

00:58:13   right now people have twitter facebook

00:58:15   they're overwhelmed by news that keeps

00:58:18   flowing in they don't want another news

00:58:20   source and my friend are you know what

00:58:22   they need is a new source that somebody

00:58:25   else goes out there and deals with the

00:58:27   flood and then says here's 10 things i'm

00:58:29   pretty sure be interested in and you

00:58:31   don't have to worry about following

00:58:33   every incoming links for the rest of it

00:58:36   so I was sort of dubious but because i

00:58:39   loved it so much when I did it's always

00:58:40   been my favorite thing to do on the

00:58:42   internet I I sort of launched again and

00:58:44   I I followed a really similar format

00:58:46   from before but I do I think of it as a

00:58:49   column with links arm it has numbers so

00:58:54   it's easier people to sort of scroll

00:58:56   through and know when it's going to

00:58:58   start an end or on the iphone and ipad

00:59:01   app you can sort of swipe through it

00:59:02   know how your where you are in the story

00:59:04   but ultimately i do think of it is sort

00:59:07   of its my column on today with links are

00:59:12   a lot of people tell me that they never

00:59:15   click on the links he they just read it

00:59:18   they get enough of an overview so that

00:59:20   you know they enjoy reading it getting

00:59:22   my overview of the day's news and they

00:59:24   feel like they have enough data to you

00:59:26   know sort of p semi-interesting at a

00:59:28   dinner party that night them probably

00:59:31   the most common user will click through

00:59:33   on one or two things maybe three

00:59:37   so there's something about it that is

00:59:39   sort of this story that like doing and I

00:59:41   like be able to refer back to other

00:59:43   stuff there's certain limitations you

00:59:45   know if a big story breaks 10 minutes

00:59:47   after I published my newsletter

00:59:49   that's a bit of a drag but i do i love

00:59:54   something about that newsletter feel I

00:59:56   think about you there will be a blog

00:59:57   version

00:59:59   our veterans

00:59:59   our veterans

01:00:00   sure of it but I there's something I've

01:00:02   always loved about email and I feel like

01:00:04   the app sort of mimics that experience

01:00:07   without all the clutter your inbox you

01:00:09   know there's been so much criticism of

01:00:11   email over the years especially not

01:00:13   entirely limited but especially among

01:00:16   you know people in our industry that get

01:00:18   15 million of the day and feel compelled

01:00:21   to update us on the status of their

01:00:23   inbox on twitter which is to me the one

01:00:26   thing more irritating than a crowded

01:00:27   clutter inbox you know what I've started

01:00:29   doing recently and I i got away with

01:00:32   this from this years ago and I sort of

01:00:34   was relying on filters and stuff like

01:00:36   that

01:00:37   what I've started doing is when I

01:00:39   encounter an email and I'm annoyed by it

01:00:41   and I know that it's you know it's not

01:00:43   an email from a person it's it's some

01:00:45   sort of automated email from annoyed by

01:00:48   it

01:00:48   I've gone back to going to the bottom

01:00:50   clicking the unsubscribe link and I'm

01:00:53   opting out of whatever the hell it is

01:00:54   and going through and I've found that my

01:00:58   email has been it i don't know there's

01:01:01   something about that that and I think

01:01:03   that's the complaint a lot of people

01:01:04   have is that you look at your inbox and

01:01:06   you can just tell by scanning it before

01:01:08   you start reading messages that a lot of

01:01:10   it is shit you don't want to read right

01:01:12   right and I got to a point where i would

01:01:14   just you know I was only one more click

01:01:17   on the down arrow from going past the 1i

01:01:19   don't want to read but I find that I'm

01:01:23   actually happier if i take a little bit

01:01:24   of time to try to keep the crap out in

01:01:27   the first place

01:01:28   it's just it makes me more likely to

01:01:30   even go and check my email right I'm

01:01:33   gonna I've always found myself to be a

01:01:35   little defensive about email because it

01:01:37   gets criticized so much but i don't

01:01:39   think that the medium is the problem i

01:01:41   think the content is the problem just

01:01:43   most emails suck right so people assume

01:01:47   that email sucks i think email is

01:01:48   actually was nice at the outset and I

01:01:51   think actually in the day of Twitter and

01:01:53   Facebook we are constantly and undated

01:01:55   by incoming content is actually in a

01:01:58   strange way are even more valuable

01:02:02   because you

01:02:05   in with twitter you know that the links

01:02:07   go by the streams go by the stories on

01:02:09   you know we talked about how many tabs

01:02:12   we have open it all sort of passes by

01:02:14   you're not sure where you saw something

01:02:15   or how it related to something else you

01:02:18   saw but email is always just like right

01:02:20   where you left it

01:02:21   you know I started reading this email I

01:02:23   know exactly where it is it's right

01:02:24   where I left and I can go finish it

01:02:26   later if I want to you know do I

01:02:29   acknowledge that for many people

01:02:31   especially in you know industries that

01:02:34   they sort of have a ton of coworkers

01:02:36   sending them thousands of emails a day

01:02:39   paid email for sure that's why i

01:02:41   launched my iOS app and sort of said

01:02:44   it's the exact same sort of private

01:02:45   intimate experience something you can

01:02:49   count on being there that doesn't sort

01:02:51   of just scroll by without you right but

01:02:54   it's out of your inbox nautical it makes

01:02:56   sense because and it doesn't seem it

01:02:59   feels natural because like i said to me

01:03:01   they feel like daily issues and anywhere

01:03:04   where to cut the idea of an issue makes

01:03:07   sense is a natural for next graph and

01:03:09   then the app feels just as it doesn't

01:03:12   feel like it's a newsletter

01:03:14   oh and you can read it through an app if

01:03:16   you know the one you're gonna read it in

01:03:18   the app it feels just as natural as

01:03:20   reading the reading an email

01:03:23   yeah well I'm glad that's definitely

01:03:25   definitely the goal

01:03:27   uh when when how did you decide what's

01:03:30   your schedule like like you work in the

01:03:32   morning or do you do start doing the

01:03:35   next day's issue that the afternoon

01:03:37   before like when do you put an issue did

01:03:39   you know what's your schedule like

01:03:40   everyday

01:03:41   yeah i'm gonna basically i never really

01:03:43   turn off on that topic and finding

01:03:45   stories so you know I'll always check at

01:03:49   least once a few sites the night before

01:03:51   to make sure i'm not gonna miss anything

01:03:52   that you know like like we said it's

01:03:55   called transient it goes away by the

01:03:56   next morning sometimes

01:03:58   so I'll always check things but my heart

01:04:02   schedules more i usually get into my

01:04:04   office around eight or so and I just

01:04:07   crank for the next three-and-a-half four

01:04:08   hours half that time or so is finding

01:04:11   the stories and the other half is sort

01:04:13   of riding proofread for Madame are

01:04:16   pretty old-school i write it all and be

01:04:18   be added and just paste it into a web

01:04:20   format mailchimp and set out there is a

01:04:24   little one big difference you have from

01:04:26   what i have therefore and it's it so

01:04:28   it's really like almost retro is that

01:04:31   when an issue goes out especially with

01:04:33   the email i guess you could fix it in

01:04:35   the app but if you have a typo

01:04:36   it's in there right on it it makes me

01:04:40   not I certainly proofread before I

01:04:42   publish but I I'm certainly far lazier

01:04:45   than i would be otherwise and you know

01:04:48   my typical style is to proofread myself

01:04:51   but I do it quickly publish and then pay

01:04:54   attention to my email and Twitter for

01:04:56   the next five minutes to fix any type of

01:04:58   right because they're going to be

01:04:59   reported

01:05:00   uh-huh whereas that does not mean that

01:05:02   ain't going to work with a newsletter

01:05:04   right now I always tell people if you

01:05:06   want to test and be sure people are

01:05:08   really reading your stuff just put a

01:05:11   typo in the first paragraph so so

01:05:15   especially like the one that's like a

01:05:16   pet peeve type out right yeah it's still

01:05:18   not the apostrophe out of its that you

01:05:21   know major connection part is that when

01:05:24   you get to feel the email and say like

01:05:25   I'm sure I'm not the first person to

01:05:27   tell you this but and then it falls with

01:05:29   three paragraphs on the different

01:05:31   meaning of its and it's alright and then

01:05:33   you have to email the bags yeah actually

01:05:35   nobody else bothered it was just you

01:05:37   thanks you know I made a name for that

01:05:39   typo and it never caught on

01:05:41   I'd still like it to catch on i call it

01:05:44   in it so that sounds good and it's

01:05:46   either way it's it and it so is writing

01:05:50   one of the IT apostrophe s or or IITs

01:05:53   where what you wanted was the other one

01:05:55   either 1 it's in itself and then you

01:05:58   could just say to someone you have an it

01:05:59   so in the first paragraph right

01:06:01   ya i ti TSO it so let's try to make that

01:06:06   we make that catch on i'll do that next

01:06:08   time somebody the next 30 times somebody

01:06:10   emails me

01:06:11   not that i will respond and thanks for

01:06:13   giving me the heads-up about the endzone

01:06:14   the other 12 is that there's this weird

01:06:16   history and internet culture of it being

01:06:18   deemed rude to point out that somebody

01:06:20   made a grammatical or spelling mistake

01:06:22   and therefore sometimes when people

01:06:24   write to me they'll be extraordinarily

01:06:26   apologetic like a almost over the top

01:06:28   apologetic I can't believe I'm bringing

01:06:31   this up to you and I'm so sorry i really

01:06:32   love your site i've been reading it for

01:06:33   years i have made by your t-shirts and I

01:06:36   hate to tell you this but you use the

01:06:37   you know you you've got a TA gir where

01:06:40   you meant theyĆ­re ' yard in the third

01:06:43   paragraph of this piece and then I

01:06:45   always write back and like no apologies

01:06:46   i did you know if readers didn't point

01:06:48   this out I've never catch them

01:06:50   yeah I yeah I probably different with

01:06:52   you there i like that i like the several

01:06:54   paragraphs of love that preceded by hate

01:06:56   it I hate it I feel bad because I feel

01:06:58   like there's people out there who see

01:07:00   these are seeing typos and aren't

01:07:02   reporting them to me because they're

01:07:03   there they're so apologetic that they

01:07:06   don't even want to send them to me

01:07:07   well you know you can trust from our

01:07:11   relationship that if I ever email you

01:07:13   notify about a typo it's mostly because

01:07:15   i want you to link to one of my projects

01:07:17   I don't want compliments so you did you

01:07:24   find yourself at you dude you you don't

01:07:26   have a problem editing your own pros i

01:07:28   do i find myself usually repulsed by my

01:07:30   own writing especially when it's fresh

01:07:32   like when i'm done writing it

01:07:34   yeah I have a secret friend who's always

01:07:38   on IM during the day when i'm wrapping

01:07:40   who for some reason enjoys next draft

01:07:43   and thinks it's a worthy use of my time

01:07:46   with or without a revenue model and is

01:07:50   so I've ever problem is you don't need

01:07:52   the whole thing proof read but

01:07:53   occasionally I'll have one or two

01:07:55   sections that I feel like I'm not sure

01:07:59   works or if this joe going too far or in

01:08:03   somebody else's eyes to to look at it

01:08:05   yeah and he this guy's name is Morty

01:08:07   he's a lot more literal than I am so

01:08:09   sometimes I'll have six or seven cups of

01:08:12   coffee and sort of get a little too

01:08:14   wound up and

01:08:15   I'm firing off some tweets not just got

01:08:18   it going on and then I'll sort of a

01:08:19   paragraph that the joke is sort of an

01:08:22   inside joke between me and my myself so

01:08:25   occasional run one of those by him too

01:08:27   and in the process if he tells me that I

01:08:29   have an apostrophe in one of my it sews

01:08:31   then you know that's just the shit so i

01:08:35   think i read about it on next draft

01:08:37   actually last was it last week that this

01:08:39   story i'm sure you put it in next draft

01:08:41   but i think it's where i first thought

01:08:43   was the the news that somebody's some

01:08:45   scientists have said that that drinking

01:08:47   excessive amounts of coffee is is good

01:08:49   for you that the people who drink i

01:08:52   don't know i forget what that what the

01:08:53   cutoff was but a fair amount of coffee

01:08:55   everyday have significantly higher life

01:08:58   or are statistically relevant longer

01:09:02   life expectancy

01:09:04   yeah they're just to have to die right

01:09:06   but I see and I know that I'm a total

01:09:08   hypocrites not the right word but I when

01:09:14   news about like the stuff that i liked

01:09:16   it take coffee booze when it says that

01:09:20   it's good for you

01:09:21   I i jump all over it and I read it and

01:09:24   and i love it and then when something

01:09:25   comes out you know that points the other

01:09:27   way I just a it doesn't apply to me

01:09:30   yeah you just explained all of media

01:09:32   right there

01:09:33   why MSNBC only has left wingers and Fox

01:09:37   only as right-wingers you know and I

01:09:38   don't feel like on that way politically

01:09:40   i do I like to read

01:09:43   well written pieces from the opposing

01:09:45   view i tend to be liberal i tend to vote

01:09:48   democrat i like to read some of the you

01:09:53   know certainly not the Tea Party types

01:09:54   but they're certainly the reasonable

01:09:56   types you know I like to read George

01:09:58   well once in a while I like to see what

01:09:59   what you know I like to open my mind to

01:10:01   stuff like that but when it comes to the

01:10:03   coffee I don't want to rely on here

01:10:05   about problems that you get from

01:10:06   drinking too much coffee right well you

01:10:08   need your stuff for claims powder so you

01:10:09   got to read some of the dummies once in

01:10:11   awhile

01:10:11   alright trying to think anything else

01:10:14   before we should I talk about google

01:10:16   maps so you mentioned that the google

01:10:18   maps app as we record today on

01:10:21   what is the thursday the December 13th

01:10:24   google google maps iphone app hit hit

01:10:26   last night you know i have two things I

01:10:29   want to say about that one was there was

01:10:30   this crazy story on all things D that

01:10:34   they promoted as an exclusive and Kara

01:10:36   Swisher tweeted it and it was this big

01:10:38   story on all things D last night which

01:10:40   was that they had an exclusive which was

01:10:44   that Google Maps was coming out later

01:10:45   that and it's like a 700 word article

01:10:48   and I the thing that struck me about is

01:10:51   you know my technician if they found out

01:10:53   obviously they had a source who

01:10:54   confirmed before everybody else knew

01:10:57   that google maps for iphone was coming

01:10:59   out last night well that is news but if

01:11:01   the entirety of what you know can fit in

01:11:03   a tweet then it should just be a tweet

01:11:05   right just tweet it right this incessant

01:11:09   desire for exclusives and the page view

01:11:11   driven mindset that would make you write

01:11:13   an article they don't have screenshots

01:11:15   they didn't get to use it wasn't a

01:11:17   review of it they didn't have the app

01:11:19   yet

01:11:19   all they had was the knowledge with that

01:11:21   it was coming out yeah well it's that's

01:11:24   kind of stuff is mostly an SEO play all

01:11:26   learned from the folks over at the

01:11:29   huffington post you know think about

01:11:31   what people are going to be searching

01:11:32   for the next 45 minutes and have a

01:11:34   headline up that matches that I didn't

01:11:36   even think about that angle this so what

01:11:38   time is the super bowl

01:11:39   I guarantee they'll be on a big headline

01:11:41   on huffington post the day before the

01:11:43   superbowl that will say what time is the

01:11:45   super bowl and they'll come up first and

01:11:48   the worst part is they don't answer the

01:11:50   question right away the article right

01:11:52   then I care about that they just want

01:11:53   the page view right you really expect

01:11:55   the truth is even a lot of technology

01:11:57   news it's funny right because you're

01:11:59   you're sort of breaking exclusives at a

01:12:02   time at night when there's like 16 of us

01:12:05   to give a shit and we already know it

01:12:08   so of course there's always this weird

01:12:09   thing also you know there's a sort of

01:12:10   race to inform the 12 people who care

01:12:13   about something you already know it

01:12:15   yeah i hear this article and i don't i

01:12:18   tend to fall you know because you tend

01:12:20   to follow people you who see things the

01:12:22   way you do at least on Twitter so the

01:12:23   people i follow tend to be the type who

01:12:25   are opposed to that and and it's like an

01:12:26   endless it's almost like an in-joke

01:12:28   among a bunch of us that putting

01:12:30   exclusive in a headline is is it haha it

01:12:34   like

01:12:34   every time I see it just it rings it

01:12:37   will move it just don't know greats up

01:12:40   on me

01:12:40   yeah certainly like with the john mcafee

01:12:42   story you know everybody had an

01:12:43   exclusive with him

01:12:44   here's like crazy guy standing on a

01:12:46   corner in Guatemala mumbling to himself

01:12:49   that's not an exclusive we can all hear

01:12:51   him but they are all exclusive call it

01:12:56   out

01:12:57   yeah I heard it from a slightly

01:12:58   different angle than these other 12

01:13:00   watermelons did and part of it is that

01:13:03   it's a total internet ism because it's

01:13:05   all about in a again the old days there

01:13:07   was never like in the print days there

01:13:10   nobody ever put the word exclusive and a

01:13:11   headline there was no need to write if

01:13:14   you were first your first and everybody

01:13:16   had to wait another day to catch up

01:13:17   anyway right the exclusive was inherent

01:13:21   right like New York Times had an

01:13:22   exclusive a bit of news about I don't

01:13:25   know the war in Afghanistan they just

01:13:27   you know they still do this that has

01:13:28   stood as they don't put exclusive in the

01:13:30   headline at the new york times but it

01:13:32   was exclusive for a day right it was

01:13:35   because nobody else here took another

01:13:36   day for you to Washington Post to get

01:13:38   another issue out so it would you didn't

01:13:41   have to tell people something was

01:13:42   exclusive it was exclusive now people

01:13:45   put exclusive in the headline and as

01:13:47   soon as it comes out everybody's linking

01:13:48   to it anyway and it's not exclusive

01:13:50   yeah I mean I guess that's what bothers

01:13:53   me when things were exclusive because of

01:13:55   the nature of print nobody ever had to

01:13:57   say they were exclusive now people brag

01:13:59   about things being exclusive and they're

01:14:01   not there is nothing exclusive about it

01:14:04   i also as a related thing that I find

01:14:07   incredibly thorough but it's angering or

01:14:10   humorous or maybe some combination of

01:14:11   both is the live tweeting and live

01:14:14   blogging of events that every single

01:14:17   person in your twitter stream is already

01:14:19   live blog your life treating with but

01:14:21   with no irony no added value no joke so

01:14:25   i admit i like to eat every apple event

01:14:27   from the comfort of my own desk here in

01:14:30   San Francisco but I mean I'm just making

01:14:32   jokes you're adding color right like I

01:14:35   just it's incredible that people are

01:14:38   absolutely seriously saying like oh the

01:14:42   new phone is gonna have a camera in the

01:14:44   front and it does 10 more pixels you

01:14:46   know what it's like

01:14:47   you know that you're the 48 first and

01:14:50   say that's right and its really not

01:14:52   urgent comes out in a month and half

01:14:54   anyway back is now aluminum not glass

01:14:56   yeah I and everybody does it but it's

01:14:59   like at least add an opinion or a joke

01:15:02   or something

01:15:03   alright got a hundred forty characters

01:15:04   at least make three or four those

01:15:05   characters something I don't already

01:15:07   know but I guess people get obsessed

01:15:10   with that stuff you know like I i have a

01:15:13   couple friends who they don't tweet much

01:15:15   but every now and then just get really

01:15:17   into a football game and they'll just

01:15:18   start tweeting specific place from the

01:15:21   game as if we're all watching together

01:15:23   they don't name the game they just sort

01:15:25   of say like Oh sweep left goes for to

01:15:28   second and seven not it it's like I'm

01:15:32   just not sure how that's adding any

01:15:34   value and that's always see live

01:15:36   tweeting right it's like I can see its

01:15:38   second and seven that's not a tweet dude

01:15:39   let's go putting putting exclusive and a

01:15:42   headline is is it is no better than

01:15:45   putting first ! in a comment under the

01:15:49   article it just telling people that

01:15:51   you're the first to write this you know

01:15:53   yeah crazy so the google math with what

01:15:57   you do what do what do you think you

01:15:59   have give what you think of the new I

01:16:00   Apple maps you you probably don't leave

01:16:02   the bay area much the Apple maps are

01:16:04   pretty good out there right yeah I

01:16:05   didn't find them that terribly i was

01:16:07   mostly just reading about it on the

01:16:09   problems people having and you know

01:16:11   definitely hearing about a lot of the

01:16:13   frustrations and apple about it

01:16:15   are you know honestly i'm not a huge map

01:16:19   to user marry me neither so I do is find

01:16:22   it i find it hard to to write about in

01:16:25   the rare circumstance that I don't don't

01:16:27   know where something is I either just

01:16:28   like ask somebody will know where i just

01:16:30   i will use google maps or something on

01:16:32   the web and just sort of take a quick

01:16:34   glance at it and say okay that's the

01:16:36   directions i don't really I'm not the

01:16:38   type to open up a nap and say okay turn

01:16:40   left at here you know maybe that's

01:16:42   because I'm little insular here you know

01:16:44   it tends to happen to us old internet

01:16:46   people I probably I'm about as far from

01:16:48   my desk as ever

01:16:49   really right next to it but i thought

01:16:53   you know I thought that Apple maps with

01:16:56   well-designed and had the typical

01:16:57   problems you would think it would have

01:16:58   you know it didn't have multiple years

01:17:01   of millions of people hammering on it

01:17:03   and finding the holes and saying fill

01:17:05   these holes i thought the UI and the

01:17:07   look and feel of it was fine i didn't

01:17:09   really have that much of a problem with

01:17:10   it with google maps that I've tried you

01:17:13   know in anticipation of this

01:17:15   conversation like I said it's not a

01:17:16   something I was anticipating with bated

01:17:18   breath

01:17:19   I feel like the map part of it is

01:17:21   awesome you know you click the button

01:17:22   and says you know locateme it mailed me

01:17:25   right to the corner

01:17:27   I when I said show me the front of the

01:17:30   place that used to live in and new york

01:17:33   city it took me right to that address

01:17:34   and gave me a beautiful street view of

01:17:36   the exact unit you know and all that

01:17:39   stuff was great when I actually started

01:17:41   using it and saying like a take me on a

01:17:44   drive from my office to my house as a

01:17:47   test it took me about five minutes to

01:17:50   figure out how to get out of that screen

01:17:52   I just I couldn't quite get out of that

01:17:54   screen I feel like there's there's no

01:17:57   doubt google is improving on software

01:17:59   but I I still don't feel like it's as

01:18:01   for me it was intuitive as it could be i

01:18:04   know people are raving about it so you

01:18:06   know what I tested it to rip out my

01:18:08   directions from my office to my house

01:18:11   you know it definitely gave me good

01:18:13   directions but I was just testing it

01:18:15   when I wanted to get out of that screen

01:18:17   it actually took me a few a few minutes

01:18:19   to navigate my way out so I I all the

01:18:23   things that you would expect from a

01:18:25   google mapping program from the mapping

01:18:27   back end whether it be street view or

01:18:29   directions are located yourself finding

01:18:31   nearby stuff all seems awesome and

01:18:33   that's the critical stuff you know

01:18:34   that's what they're great at mcdonough

01:18:36   great job when it comes to navigating

01:18:38   the map I maps project i actually found

01:18:41   it was almost slower for me to navigate

01:18:43   to the app and it was to navigate

01:18:46   through space using the app I I think

01:18:49   it's pretty good at you know I i do

01:18:51   think that one of the things that's

01:18:52   interesting i know a lot not a lot of

01:18:54   people have both things you know you

01:18:57   have to be like a gadget nerd to do it

01:18:58   but

01:18:59   I I think it's better designed than the

01:19:01   Android Maps app the Android Maps app

01:19:04   that they did it's very similar it's

01:19:07   certainly far more similar than it used

01:19:09   to be but the iOS one is cleaner it's

01:19:12   it's sort of you know they're not trying

01:19:15   to shoehorn the android looking feeling

01:19:17   they're into iOS they are writing apps

01:19:19   purposefully for the iphone and I guess

01:19:23   the other thing i find interesting about

01:19:24   it as that it i think google you know in

01:19:32   this whole saga google lost something

01:19:36   because it was really really get what

01:19:38   they really wanted to collect location

01:19:39   data of for both you as a user so they

01:19:43   can serve you targeted ad and

01:19:45   collectively because it's sort of this

01:19:47   crowd sourcing that that makes the

01:19:49   information accurate and up-to-date and

01:19:52   relevant and they lost something by not

01:19:54   being the default data provider for all

01:19:56   iOS users on and apple i'm sure i mean

01:20:02   certainly doesn't like the perception

01:20:04   but i'm sure that they actually want

01:20:06   their own mapping product to be as good

01:20:09   or better than google's and they don't

01:20:10   have that right i mean it's you know

01:20:12   that I think it's better than the

01:20:13   reputation as you has no conventional

01:20:17   wisdom holds but it's still it's you

01:20:19   know clearly not as good especially for

01:20:21   search which is a big use of maps so

01:20:25   Google didn't get what they want they've

01:20:26   lost being the default for all iOS users

01:20:28   and apple hadn't been able to do what it

01:20:30   wants which is provide a best-of-breed

01:20:32   mapping experience but the result as of

01:20:35   now it's it's one of those cases where I

01:20:37   feel like the users win because the

01:20:40   users get an apple maps app that's

01:20:43   probably the best design app right like

01:20:46   you were saying about the navigation and

01:20:48   if you want google maps now you have a

01:20:50   google maps app that's better than what

01:20:53   what we had before this whole thing

01:20:55   started because now it has vector map

01:20:57   tiles that load faster and it does turn

01:20:58   by turn direction which we didn't have

01:21:00   before

01:21:01   right now I think that's certainly the

01:21:04   broadest level that's that's the story

01:21:06   here the users have one and

01:21:07   google got better at design and we got a

01:21:10   better product and we have the good maps

01:21:12   and right and I feel like a part of the

01:21:15   excoriation that Apple went through was

01:21:17   short-sighted in that you know it was a

01:21:20   three-month period where ios6 had

01:21:23   shipped and last night when the google

01:21:26   maps app became available and so you

01:21:29   could say well yeah it kind of things

01:21:31   were kind of it if you if you use the

01:21:33   you know lived in a place where the maps

01:21:35   for more accurate or you use them for a

01:21:37   purpose that the apples want was really

01:21:39   just worse or bad or you know literally

01:21:41   put you in the middle of nowhere instead

01:21:43   of what you wanted to go

01:21:44   that sucks but it was it just a

01:21:47   three-month blip in the history of years

01:21:49   and now afterwards it's actually better

01:21:52   for users right the excoriation was that

01:21:55   Apple put its own interest above those

01:21:57   of users i think in the long run I

01:22:00   iphone users are now better off than

01:22:02   they ever were before when it comes to

01:22:04   mapping which is sort of curious right

01:22:07   wasn't the whole controversy the google

01:22:10   didn't want to share the turn-by-turn

01:22:11   directions with iOS users also yeah and

01:22:15   well but what they wanted to do it was a

01:22:17   you know it's classic negotiation

01:22:20   situation where they it's not that they

01:22:23   were outright refusing it's that in

01:22:26   exchange for it they wanted Apple to to

01:22:33   have that built-in maps app do more with

01:22:35   google services like provide a way to

01:22:38   login to the google location

01:22:42   whatever it's called what to call i

01:22:43   forget but or Google+ or something like

01:22:47   that so that I could do more they wanted

01:22:49   more information about you no

01:22:52   identifiable information from users so

01:22:55   Apple didn't want to give them that for

01:22:57   their own reasons competitive reasons so

01:22:59   Apple didn't want to give them the data

01:23:02   but without the data google didn't want

01:23:04   to give them the turn-by-turn in the

01:23:06   vector map tiles and I think that if

01:23:09   anybody made a mistake i think that what

01:23:11   that the people at Google who ultimately

01:23:13   had to make this decision

01:23:15   i overestimated apples willingness to

01:23:20   just say fuck you where we're going

01:23:23   ahead with our own Maps whether they're

01:23:24   worse or not because i think that they

01:23:26   had an accurate sense of how good apples

01:23:29   Maps we're going to be it was sort of it

01:23:33   wasn't really a secret but I mean I knew

01:23:36   I mean like a baby from a lot more

01:23:38   double as of WWDC write WC is when this

01:23:42   maps thing was announced I everybody new

01:23:45   Apple though it was working on maps I

01:23:47   mean they'd the acquisitions of mapping

01:23:48   companies over the last few years you

01:23:50   know our public knowledge

01:23:52   you don't buy you know spend 20-30

01:23:56   hundred million dollars on mapping

01:23:57   companies and not be building your own

01:24:00   mapping system but there was a general

01:24:02   sense that-that apples Maps weren't yet

01:24:04   up to snuff

01:24:06   they will you know maybe they were good

01:24:07   okay but not great and I think google

01:24:10   knew that and I think google sort of

01:24:12   internally estimated well there's no way

01:24:14   that their maps are good enough yet so

01:24:16   they're not they're going to they'll

01:24:17   come to us they'll they'll give in and

01:24:20   you know in exchange for the vector and

01:24:22   the turn-by-turn will get more

01:24:23   integration with are you know

01:24:27   google+ and stuff like that right and I

01:24:31   think that's why it did that you know

01:24:33   this that google maps app wasn't ready

01:24:35   on day one is that they thought that

01:24:38   they had like at least another year but

01:24:43   ultimately i feel like you know it it's

01:24:46   all worked out i don't think that I feel

01:24:48   like people are missing that I don't see

01:24:49   that in the coverage of this

01:24:52   yeah I mean that was pretty much my

01:24:53   taking next draft was that everybody

01:24:55   here wins except for the guys who were

01:24:57   working on the Apple maps soon

01:24:59   well and even they do now you know it's

01:25:01   even i mean i don't know that they win

01:25:02   but it's it certainly it you know they

01:25:05   know how high the bar has been raised

01:25:07   right right so i don't know i think it's

01:25:13   you know I think it's wrong to think

01:25:15   that Apple still that the situation now

01:25:17   for iOS users is that they're screwed on

01:25:19   maps

01:25:20   I think it's better oh no doubt no doubt

01:25:22   the users are coming out good here they

01:25:24   had three months of a little bit of

01:25:27   frustration for some users here and

01:25:29   there probably outweighed by the amount

01:25:31   of discourse and fun that they had

01:25:34   around the issue and now they have the

01:25:36   maps product they want and better than

01:25:38   ever

01:25:39   it's pretty good place to end the show

01:25:43   Dave Pell thank you for for being here

01:25:45   people can find out more pride number

01:25:48   one website you want people to go to

01:25:50   they want if they want more Dave Pell go

01:25:51   to go to next draft dot-com and run you

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01:25:57   find out how to sign up for the

01:25:58   newsletter you can see a picture of Dave

01:26:00   with with the top part of his skull

01:26:02   coming off his head

01:26:04   it's good selling point is any thanks I

01:26:08   really appreciate it