The Talk Show

126: ‘Tommy Got Made’, With Guest Jason Snell


  menu I sent a good I got my eye just doing what my market tells me to do I [TS]

  know I've gotta keep saying I'm gonna do it market as well he keeps changing his [TS]

  opinion I like about all the stuff that he told me to buy in like a week later [TS]

  in 2002 this microphones even better than in like two weeks later ice-like [TS]

  and then there's this microphone dude I'm not gonna keep on microphones [TS]

  the other thing that gets me too is the that I have to watch actually get one [TS]

  too many devices to have to silence before a podcast you know I leave my [TS]

  watch silenced all the time I do too except when I don't and I at least have [TS]

  to at least have to check it before [TS]

  well that's true yeah I i I leave it I'll leave it off the whole time I i I [TS]

  can't remember the last time I turned it on that would kinda I don't know I might [TS]

  be might be wishing for too much magic but I kind of wish that there was like [TS]

  some kind of way to find iTunes or iCloud and say silence all my shit [TS]

  that's the problem with iPhones and reaches the iPhones have the physical [TS]

  science which so you could say I wanted but it would still be switched on [TS]

  I think about that I i wish i had a button to push you know for the valuable [TS]

  podcasting demographic of which had a button push the basically said ok stop [TS]

  thinking on your drop boxes and stuff [TS]

  drank everything is silence enough already I'm not I i watch sound that is [TS]

  one of the least compelling things about that that product to me and i i just i [TS]

  dont wanna have like I can feel a little taps I kind of don't need to hear the [TS]

  sound I kind of agree Africa who I was talking to an email if you have that we [TS]

  forget what you said on a podcast [TS]

  the same stuff over and shows like us know that was just a conversation I had [TS]

  that the defaults might be wrong that the default for that will watch maybe to [TS]

  be silent huh i I can see why it's not because it's that so anti that a call to [TS]

  every other device you own but I feel like with the watch it it actually makes [TS]

  sense where most people you know maybe by the end if you're new to it and [TS]

  you're unfamiliar and you're going through the infamous first week of [TS]

  getting to know Apple watch defaulting to trusting the haptics our tactics [TS]

  whatever you want to call is I think the way to go [TS]

  yeah I don't see i don't see the point I mean I could see the point in making [TS]

  noise when it's not on my wrist but when it's on my wrist and I can feel it I [TS]

  kinda feel like that's enough for me and that and the shame of it is if there are [TS]

  you know if there are instances where you should be alerted audibly because [TS]

  something's going on you know you they're mixed in with the ones worth [TS]

  pointless and so it's just you know I just turn them off and you know I'd much [TS]

  rather scaling back to have them be only when it's particularly important but you [TS]

  know right now it's like every time anything happens it wants to do a little [TS]

  dance and I don't need a little thing I've got totally got haptic feel down I [TS]

  know I know that it's tapping me I don't need a noise too and the noise annoys [TS]

  everybody else in the world the beauty of the haptics on the Apple watches that [TS]

  nobody here is your your your vibration like they hear it on the phone it's just [TS]

  a complete secret message from from your watch to you so why do I need to do in [TS]

  your recording right I am recording we just gotta do it this is always always [TS]

  recording session with 10 more in the other weekend and and a half way through [TS]

  like is this a podcast no it's not but I was recording it could have been [TS]

  so I've been I've been away been on vacation for a while so I i has not been [TS]

  a show for a while there is not really been much news that's gone on it was [TS]

  like I picked a very advantageous time to go on vacation newswise but there was [TS]

  a couple of things that I like about this because this is a good like [TS]

  commentary type punditry type stuff that burst out in the last two weeks but one [TS]

  of them I guess is actually predated back to June which is when the new [TS]

  couple times started shipping did you get one of those I didn't know you were [TS]

  the original pebble four years for the two years basically I mean until until I [TS]

  got my watch and I was one of the Kickstarter people so I got it in [TS]

  whatever February of 13 something like that so two years yeah I kick started it [TS]

  original work for like two days and I i bought the new one to cause I thought [TS]

  well I mean I'm rooting for these guys I really do hope that they pull it out and [TS]

  I think it's I think it's great that they have a different set of priorities [TS]

  not just Apple but everybody else in my face but I it really especially after [TS]

  having worn out watch for awhile it just it's so far behind in so many ways they [TS]

  just cant and one thing that made me think about it and just of all the [TS]

  things I want to talk about with you get it out the way first is you saying that [TS]

  when the topic squad you don't have to worry about people hearing them well [TS]

  when the couple time [TS]

  tactical everybody in the room for me it's and it's not their fault but as iOS [TS]

  user I i just i can see the writing on the wall before it was like you know [TS]

  Apple had some Bluetooth stuff that would send notifications and there are [TS]

  other devices that could support including pebble and it seemed like you [TS]

  know it was what it was but it was clear that the background Apple is working on [TS]

  a watch and was going to put all their effort into trying with that watch and [TS]

  you know when I saw people try my thought [TS]

  you know it they keep adding features for Android because they can tie into [TS]

  all of the Android where API's and it just seemed clear to me that that pebble [TS]

  was going to be a much better watch on Android that it was ever gonna be on iOS [TS]

  because it was never gonna be a priority for Apple to support people because why [TS]

  would they they've got their own lunch yeah and even if you want to take a less [TS]

  cynical competitive or if you want to say anti competitive you it's just never [TS]

  going to be a priority for them to spend the time to make those API's Republican [TS]

  send a private even if they kind of thing in their heart of hearts of Apple [TS]

  wanted to support third-party watch as likable as best they could [TS]

  on iOS they're never gonna have the API's cap caught up to where the private [TS]

  API's for Apple watcher [TS]

  nor are they going to be as rich as what is in the the entrance where stuff on [TS]

  Android so if you're pebble you're like you know I was a nice market and you'd [TS]

  like to be there but your product is worse on it and it is on on Android so I [TS]

  think I understand why they're prioritizing things that way and I would [TS]

  make the same decision and I don't blame Apple because you know what is up with a [TS]

  focus on a watch or kind of vague third-party support that really would [TS]

  only be mean Google talked about doing you know and read where support on iOS [TS]

  but will be the same thing will be a nap the ties into some basically to stuff [TS]

  and maybe some Google services they'll be able to do but you know I get the [TS]

  impression that Apple can do some very clever things in the background in terms [TS]

  of launching [TS]

  launching apps grabbing the data sending it to the watch that is not something [TS]

  that is allowed by third parties and so they're always going to be ahead of [TS]

  things yeah yeah and if that's already a problem on Apple iTouch and it is you [TS]

  know in terms of sometimes the latency between tapping the weather complication [TS]

  on your face and actually getting the weather update with Apple having the [TS]

  inside access to it imagine how much worse it would be for someone relying on [TS]

  third-party I can't help but think that that's why Google that was a rumor [TS]

  leading up to his months ago actually but a rumor leading up to I O that that [TS]

  was something that they might announce that I O in early June or late June may [TS]

  whatever the hell I O was and didn't happen I can't help but think that one [TS]

  of the reasons you know maybe the main reason why not that they've been working [TS]

  on it but that it is so it pales in comparison both to Apple watch for iOS [TS]

  and Android we're friends and so therefore why you know it its second [TS]

  rate either way just my experience with the pebble things like people would [TS]

  update attempts in the background as long as the public was running and it [TS]

  would run for a while and some point I was just kill it because it hadn't been [TS]

  running for a while and it needed to memory and at that point that was it [TS]

  like people won't talk to the watch the phone after that because you know it's [TS]

  just a nap and it doesn't have any special powers there and you know that's [TS]

  just how it is it's it's a it's a tough situation but I don't like them too I [TS]

  like the idea that this is a lower a lower cost you know simpler long life I [TS]

  like the fact that it's a long battery life things to like about it but you [TS]

  know the fact is platform vendors have so much power over over what these other [TS]

  products can do and at least with Google they can tie into the stuff the Google [TS]

  built for Android where and good for them that that makes that a more [TS]

  compelling product on Android but unless it's just never I mean I kept having [TS]

  this hope for the first two years like that they would get better and it did [TS]

  get better for a while and then it feels like to me they had a wall where it's [TS]

  like this is all Apple is ever gonna let Bluetooth generic Bluetooth devices do I [TS]

  you know app is a sort of nebulous word and as time goes on it's ever more [TS]

  nebulous but the basic idea cuz it doesn't really relate to anything like a [TS]

  low-level computer science term it's a bundle you know that basically means [TS]

  it's a process running on your computer that displays a user interface to the [TS]

  user [TS]

  and it to me I mean this is my interpretation word it's a word [TS]

  inherently of the GUI era of computing it's a thing that no matter which [TS]

  computer you on the user looks at and interacts with and I you know even on [TS]

  iOS and then maybe in the early days like 2008 when the App Store first [TS]

  debuted that's really what apps were they were processes that showed a user [TS]

  interface and add an icon and you're looking at it and it was running and if [TS]

  you weren't looking at it wasn't running and was really pretty simple and now [TS]

  there's you know as I S is involved there's a lot more that can happen in [TS]

  the background and you know apps can stay in memory was long as there's [TS]

  enough memory to keep you know the most regional 345 most recently used apps you [TS]

  know you can request for background download even when you're not running [TS]

  etcetera etcetera but basically to interact with another piece of hardware [TS]

  to have a phone interacting with in controlling with a watch you don't [TS]

  really want an app for that it has to be part of the operating system and there's [TS]

  no you know there's there's no way that third parties get the right parts of the [TS]

  operating system iOS yeah you need some sort of future in the front steps toward [TS]

  this in some of the updates that have come out over the last few years but you [TS]

  know something like people you really like a demon UNIX terminology that is a [TS]

  process that runs in the background all the time and Apple's marketing let Apple [TS]

  always has the ability to even even when there is a process running in the [TS]

  background cuz I was back grounding you know as abscam Lennon the background [TS]

  faceless lead to do some updates and things that Apple is never gonna give up [TS]

  the option to kill something if it wants to improve the user experience by [TS]

  freeing up memory so that this other app can run and so you know somebody like [TS]

  people they just cant they can't install something with running all the time and [TS]

  they can't count on it being there and that it limits what they can do whereas [TS]

  Apple can can can try to do that we should say cuz I mean you mentioned it I [TS]

  i sometimes will put on like a weather complication or or something like that [TS]

  and it just for the sunset on that what is the solar face where it calculates [TS]

  out like the sunrise sunset date [TS]

  data I've had not just gives up and it shows that like it's the Equinox because [TS]

  even though it's talking to the phone whatever process updates that data has [TS]

  just died or stalled and so even Apple is struggling with it and they control [TS]

  the operating system and that's you know if if it could if it made any sense and [TS]

  it doesn't for people to be connected to your Mac instead of to your phone it [TS]

  doesn't because you're gonna wander away from your Mac with your watch on wanna [TS]

  have a connection that's why it went to connect to a phone and not to a computer [TS]

  but if it if it made any sense they could write Mac software that did [TS]

  everything it wanted to do but it wouldn't go through the Mac App Store it [TS]

  would be the sort of thing you download from get purple dot com and install on [TS]

  your Mac the old-fashioned way because it would have to do things that even in [TS]

  the even on the Mac through the app story at that point you have wifi in a [TS]

  thing and have a just talked to a web service and then only use the phone when [TS]

  it absolutely has to but then it's not really a phone accessory anymore right [TS]

  it's just a war there's a web service that the phone is talking to and that [TS]

  the watches talking i mean it's just a mess it's not the same product at that [TS]

  point right so my review of the pebble [TS]

  having written and I don't know if I'm gonna write I didn't write a review of [TS]

  the first people because it was and sort of out of good sportsmanship [TS]

  for lack of a better term that it would have been very negative and I didn't [TS]

  feel like that was i just didnt wanna do that you know I have other people wrote [TS]

  about it just felt like I was jumping on the pile with this one I feel like hey [TS]

  there been around long enough and now you know the market is this it would be [TS]

  fair to write a negative review so maybe I will maybe I won't but it's short and [TS]

  it basically a the hardware really does not compare in any meaningful way to do [TS]

  what you can get with it happens watch sport so let's just compared to a polite [TS]

  sport 43 $53.99 yes that's more expensive than the double time which [TS]

  starts at 199 [TS]

  but it's in the same ballpark you know Toomey 199 in 349 its yet you know close [TS]

  to half against attack if you compared to the forty two millimeter version but [TS]

  it feels like way more than the Apple watch his way more than twice as well [TS]

  made its me aesthetically you can tell just by looking at a picture of the time [TS]

  there's this double bezel effect around the display so the display is what [TS]

  actually lights up in color but then around that there's a black thing that [TS]

  goes around the display and then around that is a piece of plastic that covers [TS]

  the crystal so there's like two vessels around the actual watch face and to me [TS]

  in photographs it looks like it is what it is but while I was wearing it every [TS]

  time I glanced embarrassed it just stuck out and I realized that I've never seen [TS]

  a watch that has anything like that before [TS]

  digital analog or otherwise and it really feels like a compromise terms of [TS]

  Engineering aesthetically build why's it I thought it was really I know it sounds [TS]

  like a petty thing but to me that the haptic engineer everyone calling time [TS]

  the fact that it's like a vibrator from your phone and it's very loud I mean [TS]

  like surprisingly loud is just a deal breaker and part of that is just my [TS]

  experience that will watch with the tactics being surprisingly central to [TS]

  the experience of using Apple ID with the pebble time it's to me is horrendous [TS]

  I don't even know it may not even be any different than the one from the original [TS]

  couple but once you've got used to watch Art I did it and it sort of this subtle [TS]

  tapping that is completely silent that allowed jarring like it just feels like [TS]

  the equivalent of holy shit something terrible is happening that you need to [TS]

  be able to right away even if it's like a text message from somebody who you're [TS]

  working with his says yes you get like a jolt erased it almost feels like an [TS]

  electric shock and that to me and I'm not judging that in terms of iOS or [TS]

  Android that would be the same no matter what you're using it with [TS]

  and lastly to my other big complain about it is that this color screen that [TS]

  they're using I understand that it gives tremendous battery life and the battery [TS]

  life on pebble is clearly the single best thing about it compared a polite [TS]

  but I can't read the screen in any light went out like getting it real close my [TS]

  eyes and holding it a perfect angle whether its broad daylight [TS]

  well lit room indoors or especially in dim lighting and demanding I can I can't [TS]

  see it even when I like it it's a really really low contrast screen and maybe it [TS]

  maybe I'm in a bad place on that because you know the stuff I've had with the [TS]

  retina and stuff like that but even when I close my bad I just look at it with [TS]

  with my perfectly good write-up I really have a hard time reading that's worse [TS]

  and to meet the contrast is the big thing the contrast is worse than with [TS]

  the original public's eye even went back and powered up my original people to [TS]

  compare and just for readability to me it was it's worse it's really really low [TS]

  contrast yeah I wasn't convinced that given the resolution of a really [TS]

  convinced that the color was even necessary I mean it's nice to have their [TS]

  gonna get mock debate don't have color but it's it's not like there are in a [TS]

  beautiful works of art on that display because it's not a very high res display [TS]

  it really is about getting imparting this information to you and anything you [TS]

  do to junk that up and just makes it harder to read I don't know if I I'm [TS]

  with you I feel like I want to root for those guys but you know even at the time [TS]

  even when I back that Kickstarter I felt like these guys had a very short window [TS]

  where they could come out not like that they're trying to be something different [TS]

  and cheaper and you know maybe they could compete with the Fitbit of the [TS]

  world but instead you know I don't know why I got the warning sign I got was [TS]

  when they came out with the people steal because I didn't mind the design of the [TS]

  original temple I mean yeah it was a big black watch but it was just you know it [TS]

  was what it was it was a curved plastic big chunk and it told the time and that [TS]

  was fine I mean ultimately it always told the time and it lasted a week and [TS]

  it did a couple of other new things so I was fine [TS]

  wearing it as just a watch but the pebble time when it came out as like [TS]

  more expensive and fancy [TS]

  and even listed the steel and it was not it was not I don't like the design of an [TS]

  eye I really wondered what they were doing at that point that like it it was [TS]

  it was nice material but like if you bring your finger over the front of it [TS]

  like there were sharp edges at the bezel because of the way they built the steel [TS]

  bezel on top of the screen and so it's kind of uncomfortable to touch ya at [TS]

  that point I was I was starting to wonder what their priorities here and [TS]

  you know do they know that this this freight train is running out them and [TS]

  people time you know I think their time was great for their Kickstarter cuz it [TS]

  was before you know before Apple watch stuff started to really happen in the [TS]

  try to get in just before then but I don't know it's just I feel bad for him [TS]

  but there was no way that I was going to buy one [TS]

  athletically I actually think original pebble is better than either of the [TS]

  subsequent ones I doesn't have that double bezel effect it is a weird [TS]

  looking watch it's clearly some kind of smart wats type thing but it's not too [TS]

  big and it's to me it's very honest to itself it looks like $100 $150 digital [TS]

  watch and it has it own band that its trip with was it wasn't great but it was [TS]

  fine it was a fine you know what would you ever call you know rubber it was a [TS]

  river AIAIAI AIAIAI AIAIAI took that off so fast I just made my risks when he and [TS]

  I got a letter banned for it but there's lots of people who there's lots of other [TS]

  digital watches that have a band that very much like that it's fine but the [TS]

  fact that they picked a standard white connector so that it was easy for [TS]

  somebody just as easy to put a new band on it is it is any other standard watch [TS]

  so i've seen the actually a lot of people I know who who have original [TS]

  people use you know some kind of other third party band yeah I've seen you with [TS]

  yours many times used to at least another black leather band from the [TS]

  shopping mall down the street and you know it was easy to put it on you know I [TS]

  like I like that it was it did it served its purpose but you know the boys was [TS]

  always hanging over their product and running Google Goggles [TS]

  Android where stuff too because the platform vendors were clearly gonna come [TS]

  in and these these poor little guys we're gonna be kinda squeezed looking at [TS]

  it to get home page where they show all three of their watches and they still [TS]

  sell all three [TS]

  the other thing that really gets my life I think that the steel is truly an ugly [TS]

  watching live sex in a few people wearing them people I know that I've [TS]

  seen people on airplanes wearing them and they'd they're very very telltale to [TS]

  me there's certainly a certain thing about the three logs that stick out of [TS]

  the top and bottom to connect the wristband to in the way that the display [TS]

  is almost or not the display but the face is almost a rectangle but not quite [TS]

  like a box of stuff too much stuff into when you're moving does olivia gets it [TS]

  doesn't look like it's supposed to be a rounded shape it just looks like you [TS]

  know that ended up on the sides a little bit but the other thing that really [TS]

  getting that look into pictures that they decided to print the word pebble so [TS]

  bad black bezel underneath which is horrendous design mistake and it almost [TS]

  like you know like you can get into it with found but to me it's a lot like the [TS]

  way that you know a lot of that you know almost all the Android phones I've ever [TS]

  seen always have leaked Samsung written at the top probably with a Verizon or [TS]

  AT&T stamped on the glass too and it's just like a low rent move in and just [TS]

  where however well it flies in the phone world it flies worsen the watch world [TS]

  well you know it's not like a Rolex doesn't have a logo on it but it didn't [TS]

  really like that to me it's real it's not like it's so cheap to me on the [TS]

  pebble that you know we know what we're gonna do we're going to stick your name [TS]

  on there and you're never going to be able to get it off and I don't know why [TS]

  they did it may just have been that to get the right size bezel and into the [TS]

  size of your screen [TS]

  we got extra space what do we do put our name their yeah I don't know bothers me [TS]

  so I my I don't think there I know they're not a public company but my [TS]

  advice would be if they were to sell your stuff but I am rooting for them so [TS]

  I feel they don't take any pleasure in that really but I feel like they are [TS]

  this is the problem of them had it going head-to-head with two hundred billion [TS]

  dollar company or I guess I was more like an eight hundred billion dollar [TS]

  whenever a company with Apple's resources yep I me take a break and I [TS]

  will thank our first sponsor we have we have our good friends at Harry's you [TS]

  guys know harry's they sell high-quality razors and blades for a fraction of the [TS]

  price of the big RAZR brand was started by two guys who wanted a better product [TS]

  without paying an arm and a leg but they got really really serious about this [TS]

  this is the thing I always impresses me about Harry's as you hear well it's some [TS]

  startup that selling stuff and you think that they buy this stuff white label and [TS]

  just buy razor blades third party in the label them and package them in their own [TS]

  stuff know what they did is they found an old razor blade factory in Germany [TS]

  that they liked so much they bought the factory and they make their own blades [TS]

  they're all high performing German blades crafted right to their own specs [TS]

  and that's the thing that the whole shaving experience starts with obviously [TS]

  before you get any kind of products before you get to the handles its the [TS]

  blade that you're rubbing against your skin and hair is so focused on that they [TS]

  bought their own factory truly truly impressive in my experience it really [TS]

  shows in the product that they sell to you what they do is they offered this [TS]

  high quality stuff at factory direct pricing because they don't have a [TS]

  middleman you when you buy stuff from it's Harry's who fulfills it [TS]

  and ship it to you so by getting rid of them the middlemen later by getting rid [TS]

  of distributors by getting [TS]

  third party stores by getting rid of drug stores they have to go to visit go [TS]

  through the hassle of asking someone to unlock the case and open it up they just [TS]

  celebrate you and the starter set is a great great deal really really low price [TS]

  for 15 bucks you get a razor moisturizing shave cream or gel your [TS]

  choice and three razor blades then when you need more blades they're just two [TS]

  bucks each or less an eight pack is 15 bucks 16 pack is just 25 and I think it [TS]

  goes up from there you can buy in bulk and save more and more the more the by [TS]

  the time but even if you just by aidid it it's 15 bucks for a refill you cannot [TS]

  be that with Gillette views in fusion or any of those brands like that I think if [TS]

  you go to Amazon released last time I checked is from a note that the amazon [TS]

  and the Amazon courses huge discounters celebrating the discount but for a 12 [TS]

  pack of fusions from July to pay 41 bucks so it way more that's more like [TS]

  three and a half bucks and played it truly is half the price for something of [TS]

  comfortable quality great packaging nice heavy handle I was just looking at my [TS]

  handle recently I've been traveling with it I've had this thing ever since harry [TS]

  started sponsoring the talk show I've had one handle from Ares I was looking [TS]

  at it I got like the chrome one whatever that means called [TS]

  run it under hot water and wipe it off it looks like mint condition and it's [TS]

  not like a baby it it's unbelievable look brand new so all I've ever done [TS]

  I'll have ever done with these guys to refill it is I just by blades and one [TS]

  time i buy more she was it so here we go to Harry's dot com use the promo code [TS]

  the talk show that the code and you will save five bucks off your first purchase [TS]

  so my thanks to he's got to Harry's Jason yeah that that handle still super [TS]

  sharp and yeah I just by blades in the shape room the Winston said the chrome [TS]

  handle it's the Truman said that comes with the iron generally that is around [TS]

  plastic I got the shiny one that's the that won the original one when you got a [TS]

  nice and yeah that's funny I was trying to come up with like the competitors [TS]

  remember they're gone I just get there is played out about those competitors [TS]

  for get it done next on my list of topics for the show is this thing that [TS]

  popped up she's like two weeks ago now but it was the beginning of my vacation [TS]

  this whole idea that safari is the new I was on vacation to read this before [TS]

  going to bed at my in-laws house and it made me mad and I was like I'm just [TS]

  gonna sleep on it I woke up in the morning I was like nope still mad so if [TS]

  this was written by a web developer named Nolan Watson website and it kind [TS]

  of blew up [TS]

  Ars Technica republished with 99% sure it given that they pay them and that [TS]

  they were published it there but it certainly brought it to more people's [TS]

  attention and for people who were around in the nineties and disagree and maybe [TS]

  even nearly 2,000 honesty I think I just got together stylesheet for daring [TS]

  fireball that says i sux at CES you do [TS]

  yeah it's I don't even have to look it up I'm sure I've left a note for myself [TS]

  Jimbo explaining why it has to be in a separate file and why i think its cuz [TS]

  its I have it conditionally commented out on I think that's the story and the [TS]

  HTML for during fireball its conditionally commented out and small [TS]

  stylesheet ie underscore sucks that PHP you've got there it's just setting [TS]

  margins and hittin yeah yeah it sucks and that was that was I think and I [TS]

  think I was mostly concerned with the Mac I E which was a better experience [TS]

  but anyway I far people who had to deal with it it does seem like you have to do [TS]

  that sort of stuff with JavaScript [TS]

  JavaScript with Safari so it feels like its accusations that the headline was [TS]

  written to get attention rather than to accurately portray the article to me [TS]

  we're just I think I don't think he intended to become famous [TS]

  I think I don't think so either but I and he was frustrated that he went to a [TS]

  conference one of many he probably goes to bout with web developers and all the [TS]

  web developers bitched about how well you know I want to do this thing but [TS]

  it's on safari in the apple doesn't let let you do this on safari in the [TS]

  complaint about the stuff that that Safari didn't do or didn't do well and [TS]

  they perceive as likely who knows what he's doing and you know some of that [TS]

  maybe Apple not communicating and some of that maybe Apple not telling them [TS]

  what they want to hear but I think it was really much very much like who are [TS]

  who are we bitching about the meetings used to be I N Out Safari so so far as [TS]

  the new IEM and you know he ran with that maybe he he I think it was being [TS]

  cheeky and then it kind of a kind of blew up in his face but I think that was [TS]

  his intent and you know when I was at Macworld I I would hear it from our [TS]

  developers are web developers that both on the front end and also for our CNS [TS]

  who would who do this stuff and show it as new feature and we were tried in [TS]

  Safari and they would be like you know we would say it doesn't work in Safari [TS]

  in America so I heard that from them too I suspect it might have been more they [TS]

  weren't properly testing on safari and you know but I I definitely heard from [TS]

  the web developers I used to work with at Safari had some weird things about it [TS]

  there are outliers and they had to do some extra stuff in order to get the get [TS]

  what they were building for us to work on safari so there's I'm sure there is [TS]

  some truth to that although you can probably look at some stuff that's in [TS]

  Safari and if you've developed for it then get frustrated by Chrome or Firefox [TS]

  to depends on your perspective and in in law since peace i very much fealty of [TS]

  Eric room and a little bit Android kind of perspective but I think in the end [TS]

  what he really meant was we used to bitch about I in Safari at these [TS]

  conferences that I go to yeah I think it's twofold I think one is that a more [TS]

  and perhaps even more sensational headline would have been Apple is the [TS]

  new Microsoft yeah if you're just one wow blank is the new blank I think [TS]

  that's it and and by that I mean they are in charge of a dominant operating [TS]

  system whereby dominant I mean it means everybody has to support it and most [TS]

  people feel like they need to support it as it [TS]

  top tier target for their web development and it has a massive user [TS]

  base and the company is not motivated to dance to the rest of the web [TS]

  open web communities to because i dont have to and so they can do what they [TS]

  want they can do what they want and so in many in many cases not all in both in [TS]

  both Microsoft and apples cases not all the time but some of the time they just [TS]

  decide well we did that is not as high a priority for us as it is for you and so [TS]

  we are going to do what we want to do that is frustrating to them I used the [TS]

  phrase high priority or Apple's prioritizing and I gotta I got a whole [TS]

  bunch of angry I was walking around downtown San Diego on my vacation and I [TS]

  keep getting these like every time I will check my phone there be like 15 20 [TS]

  responses on Twitter and they were very much from web developers and end a focus [TS]

  so much on that idea the prioritization like Apple got all the money they didn't [TS]

  need to prioritize they can do everything which is not I think accurate [TS]

  at all but but it is the difference is that Microsoft in those days could [TS]

  really defined the web because almost every browser was using was windows and [TS]

  using IE [TS]

  almost like I mean like what ninety percent eighty-five percent was at least [TS]

  is probably around 90% and and the at that time the only devices that were [TS]

  browsing the web or PCs yes there were no mobile devices doing this and in the [TS]

  latter days maybe there was like wow or something like that that's well past the [TS]

  point [TS]

  of where I E became ie right yes so that it's a very different one of these [TS]

  arguments about kind of access to a platform that people like a shiny [TS]

  platform which is we want to be on iOS and I definitely got the sense that you [TS]

  know this is about he originally I was wondering if it was about so far in [TS]

  WebKit in general and as I read his articles I realized it's really just [TS]

  about mobile doesn't really care about the Mac Safari he cares about iOS and [TS]

  wanting access to iOS and wanted to build things that work really well I S [TS]

  and like I get that but that's very different from a company that can [TS]

  literally like whatever they did was the web and that was where Microsoft was so [TS]

  in some ways it depends on how you define it in some ways not nobody's ever [TS]

  gonna be the new I ever again and so when I read that I I start to read it as [TS]

  this isn't really about it is about web standards but it's about using web [TS]

  standards and being frustrated that they don't grant you access to a particular [TS]

  platform that you want to have and you know I understand where they're coming [TS]

  from but it's not it's not the same as it's a different kind argument that's [TS]

  where that analogy falls down for me and to me one of the things that Microsoft [TS]

  did that made i ii ii is that they promoted purposefully you know for the [TS]

  for the reason that it's not even that there could be an argument the other way [TS]

  there is no maybe about it that they added features two ie that depended on [TS]

  Windows especially the ActiveX stuff which was like literally just x86 how do [TS]

  we fix the web to make a more interactive [TS]

  well just in bed x86 code in web pages I mean I guess you could argue that that [TS]

  would be the that it wasn't really about blocking locking ie to Windows it was [TS]

  about making it more [TS]

  active but you know i i i think that there were ways to make it an attractive [TS]

  that wouldn't have been so proprietary and ActiveX could not have been a [TS]

  proprietary there is no way for other platforms to add ActiveX even I E Mack [TS]

  didn't do the ActiveX it was really it wasn't even about locking the web tie it [TS]

  was about locking the web to Windows or at least part of it and a whole slew of [TS]

  corporate type stuff where where Windows was already entrenched in where there [TS]

  were a lot of in-house Windows developers already all went that route [TS]

  with their with their website [TS]

  you know there was you know as a Mac user from the whole there there was a [TS]

  whole you know time when you know everybody was a bit went from there is [TS]

  no way I'm ever gonna do banking online because that would be crazy if you know [TS]

  gonna get hacked and lose all my money to maybe I should do banking online too [TS]

  I think I i i would like to do my banking on and then you find out that [TS]

  your bank's website only worked with you know I E [TS]

  persian blank or later on Windows blank or later because the whole website was [TS]

  based on proprietary windows and the we should say that during that period the [TS]

  web standards people were a real lifeline for Mac users because they were [TS]

  saying this stuff isn't standard and Mac users will be where the example like [TS]

  this ten percent of the web is not allowed access this stuff [TS]

  ultimately what cracked crack this open i think is first off I got so bad that [TS]

  Firefox game started becoming popular and a lot of the same stuff that didn't [TS]

  work on IE [TS]

  anywhere but I E for Windows didn't work on Firefox on Windows either and so site [TS]

  started to make sure that it will also work in Firefox and I can't tell you how [TS]

  many times you've probably experienced this too in that couple of years things [TS]

  started working on the Mac because the websites were redesigned to work on [TS]

  Firefox on Windows and not just I ES and Mac users alike thank you very much [TS]

  because it works for us to now and and you know that was a web standards based [TS]

  thing and it's when you're in a minority platform it is a web standards are [TS]

  especially a big deal [TS]

  yeah and so i dont thats where I think the analogy between Safari and IE really [TS]

  breaks down into me it's really more about Apple and Microsoft and being more [TS]

  interested in their own well-being and their own users well-being and I've [TS]

  always said like Apple's priorities are threefold Apple first its users second [TS]

  and developers third and it wants all three to be happy but when push comes to [TS]

  shove that the order in which things are gonna fall and I'm sure that there are [TS]

  people out there who would argue that users come first but in my experience [TS]

  covering the company I'm trying to think of a good example but well that's hard [TS]

  to say I don't know why I have I should I give it some time goes up simple [TS]

  there's a reason I mean this is i dont wanna go down the rabbit hole but I will [TS]

  say things like things like Amazon and comiXology not being able to purchase an [TS]

  ad from a perfectly reasonable vendor because Apple ones to intercept 30 [TS]

  percent because they're making money on Apple's platform is not an improvement [TS]

  of the user experience but it is an apple yes so even even the fact that [TS]

  they disallow say the Kindle app from having a link that goes jumps you out to [TS]

  Safari to do the purchasing of Kendall theirs is a perfect example I think you [TS]

  could also argue that their high profit margins on hardware are helpful first or [TS]

  second irrelevant to developers more or less hard not to argue that it wouldn't [TS]

  be better for its customers if prices were a little bit lower which is not to [TS]

  say that they can't get me just to say that these are the right and then you [TS]

  could make a long-term argument that maybe that is good for users because the [TS]

  high profit margins strengthened Apple as a company and make it more likely [TS]

  that they're going to be successful in a position [TS]

  do new things going forward you know that the iPhone could be developed what [TS]

  it was in 2007 because they had the money which were profits from the Mac to [TS]

  funded etcetera i mean but down now you're going you know another level in [TS]

  the argument but because of this you know Apple first users second developers [TS]

  third if you want to subdivide developers third and web developers are [TS]

  gonna come in [TS]

  underneath native third-party app developers every time for Apple and [TS]

  that's not to say that Apple doesn't want Safari everywhere Mac iOS to be a [TS]

  great platform and i have a web developers use it but it's never going [TS]

  to be a higher priority than natives and this argument I feel like I know if you [TS]

  listen to [TS]

  couple weeks ago on ATP I felt like Marco and John were kind of arguing it [TS]

  sounded like arguing but they were actually just arguing two different [TS]

  points that I agree with both of them and it's the depends on how you view the [TS]

  web I mean on on one hand the web is an open web is a beautiful thing that we [TS]

  all benefit from and that we need to keep because no one vendors in charge of [TS]

  it and it's a commonality that we all have you don't have to go use a nap [TS]

  imagine a world where you to use an app for everything right it's like the web [TS]

  browser is great because some stuff doesn't need to be an app doesn't have [TS]

  to be in a people build Web pages any device including ones we've never even [TS]

  thought of now can be devised and can read those web pages and isn't that [TS]

  great so that the open web and I think it's powerful and important and web [TS]

  standards are important because that way no one vendor is going to control the [TS]

  future of this and everybody can access it but for me the other the other piece [TS]

  of it and I mean what John Syracuse has told me is you guys are really overdoing [TS]

  it but if you read the normal awesome piece I think it is definitely in there [TS]

  is this concept of what he calls the [TS]

  it was a point made in an installable web apps breakout and the whole idea [TS]

  there is [TS]

  is you know standards community once to create that has decided that a good [TS]

  thing is to bundle up web apps and make them installable like apps which is that [TS]

  the width of the you know the Chrome App Store that idea and that's really [TS]

  different cuz that's not the open web per se it's sort of like using web [TS]

  technologies to build apps and that is totally where I see somebody who [TS]

  understands Apple somebody who's inside Apple goes we are not as excited about [TS]

  that because that that doesn't sound like the open web that sounds like you [TS]

  guys trying to say we want to have you know me to a platform on your devices [TS]

  and we don't love that idea right at least right now why would we prioritize [TS]

  that we're really happy with with native apps well dad said Apple of course is [TS]

  the company who in 2007 per said this is how you can create apps for the iPhone [TS]

  but it's limited to what initial version of web killers Apple has allowed you i [TS]

  mean we don't mention both getting 500 emails about it you know I forget what [TS]

  version of iOS added this feature but it was years ago is certainly 2000 [TS]

  single-digit 2008 2009 where the action button on any web page you can save ad [TS]

  in Iowa won at some point it was certainly an hour west to but i think is [TS]

  right and and there's a way a very simple way as a web developer where if [TS]

  you don't do anything when you do that you just get like a bookmark on your [TS]

  home screen and you tap it in an open to that Web page in Mobile Safari like a [TS]

  regular tap sorry but there's a way that you can have just with some simple [TS]

  meditating and programming [TS]

  just a mark-up you can have your webpage open without being looking like it's in [TS]

  Safari it looks like a standalone app and some people have made some pretty [TS]

  you know very very close to native looking and feeling solutions that way [TS]

  and it still there you can still do it [TS]

  the different with I think there's no Lawson argument and the people who back [TS]

  him up is that they want those apps to be able to do more and more and I even [TS]

  think that one of the proposals that they want i mean some of the stuff they [TS]

  want to do in this is just not gonna happen is it the service workers is like [TS]

  doing stuff in the background not gonna happen and it ties into something i [TS]

  wanna talk about later you know which is the whole idea of web pages to stop in [TS]

  the background by JavaScript and the adverse effects on performance and [TS]

  battery life in not to mention control you know from Apple's perspective this [TS]

  is not gonna happen again I get my web developers would want to do this because [TS]

  it puts their skills in the most exciting place to be right now is [TS]

  developing a mobile apps and their limited there so I think they would like [TS]

  this and any web standards body is all about the web standards so why would we [TS]

  want to be a part of this I totally get that and I get why Apple would be [TS]

  resistant and I get why Google wouldn't care and would perhaps even be asking [TS]

  them on and supporting it and chrome because it doesn't hurt Google like her [TS]

  example because Google is happy to give away an operating system and let [TS]

  everybody use it and whatever while Apple needs to be different and pushing [TS]

  their platform forward and having reasons why it's better so I understand [TS]

  all that I also think that ultimately if every web browser does something if this [TS]

  becomes sort of the consensus of like this is how it's done I don't think [TS]

  Apple's going to kick and scream and dragged its feet I think it's going to [TS]

  embrace whatever ends up being the standards but I do think that it at this [TS]

  point stuff like this Apple is completely understandable just saying [TS]

  that are not our number one goal here because we really like Nate about the [TS]

  sweet solution has always been there but you know the absurd is a huge strength [TS]

  of apples and I think they're there they don't see a strategic benefit in [TS]

  allowing web developers to bypass the App Store and create experiences that [TS]

  may or may not be up to snuff from what can be done with you know with native [TS]

  apps using the latest iOS APs and part of it to an implicit and a lot of these [TS]

  arguments from the pro web developer we want you know we'd see Apple is dragging [TS]

  its feet holding back the open web part of it is that a pool yes they have an [TS]

  interest in keeping the App Store as important as a strategic just for Apple [TS]

  advantage that that Richard web apps that you could just install from [TS]

  everywhere that don't have an approval they don't go through the App Store that [TS]

  it would hurt that but the other thing that these these developers want is that [TS]

  they're still chasing the dream of write once run everywhere where they can rate [TS]

  one that would run on all mobile devices you know Windows Phone and Android and [TS]

  iOS with minimal if none if any per platform you know special cases and [TS]

  that's not just against Apple's interest that actually against Apple's vision for [TS]

  what's best for the platform because we've seen that for decades [TS]

  you know anything any kind of write once run anywhere [TS]

  runtime type thing is inherently a second class experience to what can be [TS]

  done natively [TS]

  and so there's a reason that that's actually in in the long run it really is [TS]

  it's maybe anti developer maybe anti web developer but it's in Apple's [TS]

  perspective very much pro user to say we want to take strategic we want to [TS]

  strategically keep that from becoming the where the industry does because we [TS]

  think it's a much better vastly better user experience to mostly be using [TS]

  native apps and if they're mostly using made about it allows us Apple to do new [TS]

  things quickly more quickly than if it depended on the industry update exactly [TS]

  right exactly does the the two big issues one of them is this write once [TS]

  run anywhere thing where and and people who use Java today [TS]

  get really mad when I talk about the nineties but in the nineties we were all [TS]

  sort of sold this idea that Java was this amazing technology that was going [TS]

  to let people write apps that ran on the Mac and ran on the PC and anybody on the [TS]

  Mac in the nineties who tried that saw that when they ran they ran badly and [TS]

  they never felt like you were using them on the Mac anyway it was a bad [TS]

  experience even [TS]

  and then you could put in as a developer huge amounts of work to try and make it [TS]

  better on the Mac and look more like the Mac but at that point now you've got all [TS]

  this this huge chunk of work that is about kind of localizing for the Mac and [TS]

  you're no longer writing once and running anywhere so it was it was that [TS]

  was that was my formative moment in terms of saying oh it's important that [TS]

  stuff get written to the platform that it's on you can tell when it's not i [TS]

  mean you can't even tell when things like microsoft office were written for [TS]

  the Mac but using some code and guidelines from windows even even when [TS]

  it wasn't write once run anywhere it was still not a good experience on your [TS]

  platform because it was really something that had come across from a different [TS]

  platform so it's not it's not good for users and I don't think that I think you [TS]

  know this would be similar and that's about experience and Apple knows that it [TS]

  would almost certainly be about experience in most cases there's always [TS]

  that you know but what about this but what about this I'm sure there will be [TS]

  some brilliant one that would be great but a lot of them would be exactly the [TS]

  same on Windows and on Android and they would look kind of like night there and [TS]

  be and what we really want to do that and then your second point is absolutely [TS]

  true right now applicants a hey new API's at WWDC new iOS coming out [TS]

  developers jump on it [TS]

  look how we can push this platform forward you've got access to a touch [TS]

  sensor now you've got you know whatever the next thing is you've got we put the [TS]

  metal API's in there were doing all of the stuff for you that makes making apps [TS]

  on our platform better than anywhere else and makes our platform better and [TS]

  makes your apps better so let's do that and then contrast that with well you [TS]

  know everybody what we want for our standard let's run it through the [TS]

  standards body but see what everybody says it's not that standards are an [TS]

  important and can't be good but that seems pretty antithetical to what is a [TS]

  key part of Apple's strategy which is pushing things forward itself being [TS]

  opinionated and saying we think this is important we built it and having a team [TS]

  of you know community of developers who will adopt that stuff and then [TS]

  everything gets better and I have a hard time seeing how that happens quickly in [TS]

  a you know any web standards app development platform right and one of [TS]

  the things that seems to be forgotten in this whole Apple is opposed to the open [TS]

  web mindset is something that is very much what can one opinionated company in [TS]

  a position of strength do which is the way that in my opinion Apple [TS]

  singlehandedly burst the box that Adobe Flash on the open web both in terms of [TS]

  user experience in terms of battery life and performance certainly improved terms [TS]

  of security even to this day lady even this didn't July 2015 as hacking team [TS]

  outfit over in Italy [TS]

  all their exploits were almost of their exploits were based on Adobe Flash [TS]

  security also 24 unknown to the public and in terms of beings having what is [TS]

  called the web where you get on a webpage being driven by standards well [TS]

  Adobe Flash resign standards proprietary format controlled owned by Adobe and [TS]

  when I always ship without flash it was predicted by many as a reason that it [TS]

  would never really take off because you wouldn't be able to see video on the web [TS]

  or do anything interactive on the web and in this time went on and famously [TS]

  Steve Jobs wrote an open letter thoughts on flash explaining why why why they [TS]

  haven't and why they do not plan to and will not support Adobe Flash iOS you [TS]

  know it was criticized by many including a lot of people who I think at the time [TS]

  would call themselves that you know there was that plugin plugin API is part [TS]

  of the web too well it turns out that it did and it didn't keep it [TS]

  iOS users from seeing video it took years it did take years it one-sided a [TS]

  time as they got their act together switched to the open standard which is [TS]

  just the simple video tag from html5 but here we are today and ice I serve 99% of [TS]

  the time in Safari iOS and Mac and sometimes in america still runnin decide [TS]

  when they see that they insist on serving me flash even if I change the [TS]

  do the developer menu trick and say ok I'm gonna tell you that I'm an iPad will [TS]

  you please give me it every once in a while I still get that I have to if I [TS]

  really wanna most time I just give up and say screw you watching your video [TS]

  I guess I need to I can go to crime and crime has the Flash plugin built in I [TS]

  can't remember the last time I encountered video that didn't play on my [TS]

  phone or iPad though everybody just about everybody seems to have their act [TS]

  together and when they're actually dealing with iOS and serves that and [TS]

  that is not just for the benefit of iOS users that for the benefit of anybody on [TS]

  any operating system or any device that wants to watch video not have Flash run [TS]

  and that is the sort of thing that if Apple just went along with what the [TS]

  quote-unquote community wanted they would have added support iOS but be by [TS]

  being a single opinionated company with different priorities from maybe the [TS]

  industry as a whole [TS]

  certainly different priorities from the all the web publishers that were [TS]

  publishing flash-based video they changed the web [TS]

  gave goals because Google remember tried to try to get flash running on Android [TS]

  for a little while and at some point at some point that fell apart and I feel [TS]

  like some of that was also the courage to not bother because it was already [TS]

  known on iowa's and and it was one of those things that wasn't gonna be they [TS]

  thought it would be a competitive advantage it turned out to not be and [TS]

  that was helpful for all of us that I mean what would have happened if Adobe [TS]

  had gotten Flash to work efficiently on Android maybe things would have been [TS]

  different but you know we do we do benefit from the fact that the normal [TS]

  since they haven't gotten a running and they couldn't they just couldn't [TS]

  BlackBerry PlayBook Corey side on the webOS tablets it was awful and yeah I [TS]

  mean that was I can't help but think I don't know in a few political to say [TS]

  that I can outfit I don't have any little birdies Google who can say that [TS]

  this happened that I would bet my bottom dollar that there were an awful lot of [TS]

  people within Google if not a majority of people within Google who [TS]

  when they sort of double down on Flash support on Android collectively within [TS]

  the company they like what they're doing why don't we follow them and weekend [TS]

  wipe this scourge off the web faster why in the world would we not follow their [TS]

  lead here here somewhere where we ought to be aligned with clearly it was cuz [TS]

  they were really defensive in behind me thought it was one of their own [TS]

  differentiation I think just friends right that's one of those areas and that [TS]

  was at a time and and this is certainly lessened greatly and I think it really [TS]

  does sort of correlate to when they got Andy Rubin you know sort of Cheltenham [TS]

  under a closet put Android under the control of under whatever his name is [TS]

  that Andrade at that point became a lot more integrated with Google up until [TS]

  then I wrote about this couple times enduring fireball I always felt like [TS]

  Android felt like its own independent company within Google sort of like [TS]

  witness supposedly and seems to be right now that it was in and raise interest [TS]

  maybe to do that but it certainly wasn't with it [TS]

  Google's overall interest I think Google's overall interest were much [TS]

  better served with flash wiped out i mean the flight is one thing but search [TS]

  you know any kind of content in Flash Player was either either not indexable [TS]

  or harder to index the stuff that was in HTML oh yeah yeah yeah I think that was [TS]

  that was right Google Google as a as a company is much more sort of open web [TS]

  standards kind of company and then there was the intra-group and the injured [TS]

  groups like this is a Apple has given us an opening by refusing to support it was [TS]

  kinda like don't throw me in the briar patch a little bit it's like hey we get [TS]

  to support flash has Apple didn't and then they did trend then they work with [TS]

  Adobe and realized oh this is not very good and it was in the end it was it was [TS]

  not an advantage to have flash on mobile but they thought it was and I hope it [TS]

  was in there were lots of ads right there were like TV ads that said real [TS]

  flash real web video yeah it was i mean they would but that was the thing is it [TS]

  was it was too cheap to try to find a weakness for Apple kind of blindsided [TS]

  everybody with the iPhone [TS]

  and the at brunette is an ad was in my opinion stupid thing because nobody ever [TS]

  had any idea what was all they knew is that every once in a while and they [TS]

  still do every once in a while to get a dialog box saying you can't do this [TS]

  unless you upgrade your Flash click these eighteen Padres and install your [TS]

  password in and install all this and then come back and hopefully it'll work [TS]

  but they don't know what / especially as long as it were no flash thing was [TS]

  really great for Apple in the end because I think how many how many native [TS]

  iOS apps were written in the early days of the iPhone because the you know [TS]

  whatever a site's extrusion into the world you know was built around flash [TS]

  geez we can't do that that's right now we can do it that way [TS]

  like the major league baseball app which has been one of the most successful at [TS]

  Severn was there on I think day one on the App Store one of the reasons that [TS]

  existed is because they didn't you know they were using flash and then later at [TS]

  all of their audio and video stuff and they couldn't do that on the iPhone and [TS]

  they really wanted to be on the iPhone so they you know rather than rebuild [TS]

  their entire infrastructure on land and build rebuild the front end for [TS]

  everybody they just took those you know they made sure they had some iPhone [TS]

  compatible streams on their servers and roadmap and so we need any app market [TS]

  got a lot richer because companies wrote apps because they couldn't just rely on [TS]

  flash on the web and that was good for Apple yeah and and maybe MLB would have [TS]

  written a penny either way anyway you don't know I mean they still don't have [TS]

  a Mac App if your iMac and what do they do but or do they hits yeah they do I [TS]

  wrote a thing about it a few months ago on six carries it is I think period last [TS]

  year it's still posted it uses the eighth it uses the streams that that the [TS]

  iPad app uses so it doesn't use flash it crashes half the time not while you're [TS]

  playing it like the next time you launch it crashes in the new launches again [TS]

  that works like every other time it crashes on launch super kinky my [TS]

  understanding is that they that they d prioritized it so it's basically I think [TS]

  there's some developers that MLB [TS]

  who really wish that they were building this thing has their Mac users and they [TS]

  haven't been given any time to do it but it is around you can find it and which [TS]

  is I was going to say I'm in my in my mind I'm thinking of MacBooks which is [TS]

  likely the most majority of people use and I think that's a good machine to [TS]

  watch a ballgame as I sit here talking to you staring in front of it [TS]

  30 interesting I'm gets kind of would be a pretty good received about the [TS]

  ballgame front of yeah I mean it's not bad to just would like to see that it's [TS]

  better than a webpage right and and but you're right there is no they didn't [TS]

  need to do that on the map but they did need to do it to get on iOS and so they [TS]

  did and who knows how many other companies are in a similar position [TS]

  where they had a thing that worked in flash and then the developers and [TS]

  designers probably would have wanted to go native anyway because they they did [TS]

  they know how much better native can be and they can go to management so we [TS]

  really want to do a native app our choices a company is used that this is [TS]

  in the hypothetical world where you could get flashed around on iOS we can [TS]

  do this thing we could use a flash and adjusted to the screen size and it's [TS]

  gonna be a really crummy experience for them or we can take the time to read [TS]

  this native thing some companies are going to say let's do the cheaper is [TS]

  your thing and stick to flash as opposed to the actual world where the argument [TS]

  was we can either not run at all on these devices and the iPhone or we can [TS]

  write in that [TS]

  yeah and that's very different proposal to management we can do a crummy thing [TS]

  in flash go native or will not be there at all right and I think this is one of [TS]

  the things that motivates Apple to look on skeptically at at at these issues of [TS]

  how do we use web technologies to have installable mobile apps I think they [TS]

  look at that and and I'm of this opinion too I think that if there's a scenario [TS]

  where the perception is you don't need to write an iOS app and you don't need [TS]

  to right knee injury that you can read a web app and it's good enough there will [TS]

  be a whole class of people who will just right [TS]

  good enough thing and you know maybe their apps aren't great but their native [TS]

  and it picks up a lot of the stuff that's that comes with being in a [TS]

  timeout and the update of the next OS and pick some things up if you have a [TS]

  whole swath of apps that are just kind of non platform crappy that that's bad I [TS]

  i would argue that's bad for both platforms I'm not sure to bed for Google [TS]

  and I'm not sure they care but I think about for Android users would certainly [TS]

  be bad for iOS users and so I think that may be part of the thought process and [TS]

  Apple it certainly what I thought immediately is is is if we make it a [TS]

  really really easy to choose either one there are a lot of people who will just [TS]

  use the easiest path and the easiest path is going to be bad for the user so [TS]

  we're gonna make it we're gonna prior to his the user over the developer and make [TS]

  them do the extra work to do we need a better experience and enforce them to my [TS]

  friends exactly what i've you know what I said before that in my experience time [TS]

  after time after time Apple first user second developers and I really think [TS]

  that the heart of this you know argument is really complaining about not putting [TS]

  developers first and you know and I i think in a lot of ways you could argue [TS]

  that that was Microsoft way and that Microsoft put developers ahead of users [TS]

  in terms of the way that Microsoft historically with Windows has bent over [TS]

  backwards not to break API's and they keep legacy API's around as long as they [TS]

  can and that yes we have this new thing but the whole thing will still work i [TS]

  mean that you could still run da saps and opening a window a promise Microsoft [TS]

  is that unlike Apple which historically has had apple and users and developers [TS]

  as its constituents more than any other groups Microsoft it's it's Microsoft and [TS]

  users and developers and like the buyers [TS]

  the correct because there's so much business aspect to it and I feel like so [TS]

  much of that compatibility stuff wasn't really about honoring developers it was [TS]

  more like the developers were stuck and the end maybe the developer someone to [TS]

  move forward but the businesses didn't [TS]

  they wanted to just exactly the same and for most of Microsoft's modern history [TS]

  that was the priority was how do we make a product that will continue to get us [TS]

  the big contracts from the big businesses to buy a billion PCs and [TS]

  install them everywhere and let's just do that and they didn't want change they [TS]

  they just wanted to stay in the mud so they did I i wanna talk about chrome [TS]

  next summer in my head but i wanna take a break here and thank our second [TS]

  sponsor and it is our good friends at cover however is the best way to buy and [TS]

  manage I've been telling you about them for a while they used to be the best [TS]

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  registrars you can you're not going to find one better they have a special code [TS]

  just for daring fireball listeners at the end of the read it [TS]

  great code they come up with the am terrible at the San Jose asked me for [TS]

  suggestions however like to have these in jokes as the code to be listened to [TS]

  any other shows that her sponsors like ATP they always come up with these in [TS]

  jokes I'm terrible at that they asked me for them and i cant do it but they come [TS]

  up with some good ones and have a good win this week so keep listening and [TS]

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  simple interface on the web site no other ad and I don't think get there on [TS]

  other domain name registrars where there is a campaign this is your your the [TS]

  service why am I looking at ads for other things on this thing it's so [TS]

  different that however if you have registered domain names anyone you know [TS]

  that a lot of their competitors may get a really unpleasant experience [TS]

  every step of the way to change anything to reduce or something new there always [TS]

  checking check marks check boxes that give you a little add-ons or upgrades or [TS]

  stuff like that maybe you know shouldn't be on by default or or there for things [TS]

  like domain name who is privacy to maintain privacy to keep your stuff [TS]

  private they may make you pay extra for that that stuff is all but anything that [TS]

  should be built in is built in there is no heavy handed up selling they don't [TS]

  charge you for stuff that should just be there everything is just that should be [TS]

  included is included with your domain and you get a smart control panel and [TS]

  you get whois privacy and they have the most amazing thing in the entire [TS]

  industry which is valet transfers this is the thing about Hubbard this is the [TS]

  fact this is the human touch that makes it seem too good to be true but it is [TS]

  true when you want to do you have read domains from other crummy registration [TS]

  you want to just now you've seen a proper you see how good it is you see [TS]

  that it's true you want to get them all there you should weigh everything is in [TS]

  one count and over but transferring from one registrar to another can be a huge [TS]

  hassle especially if you have a lot of demand and especially because some [TS]

  registrars love to make it really really hard to move your domains way they do it [TS]

  on purpose it's like trying to call the cable company and get them to cancel [TS]

  your service because you're switching to FiOS or something like that however [TS]

  offers Valley transfer service give them your credentials for your other [TS]

  registrar and they will move them over for real that's just part of being a [TS]

  hover user that's how much that the reason they can afford to this is [TS]

  because they know that once you go to hover you're never gonna leave gonna be [TS]

  a customer for years to come [TS]

  so they want to help you with this they do this all the time they're they're [TS]

  valleys who do this they know all the tricks of the other companies they know [TS]

  all the hassles the hoops you have to jump through even update the DNS to make [TS]

  sure you don't have any down time with your website or your e-mail or something [TS]

  like that [TS]

  so go check them out go to have a dot com and if you use this code is all one [TS]

  word elephant Marco Eph A&T Marco at checkout you will save 10% off your [TS]

  first purchase and use the code elephant I love that it's great I i [TS]

  just all my patients are coming back for all the demands about speculatively for [TS]

  launching six colors there and they're already it's like a reminder that I am [TS]

  coming up on a year because all my speculative I bought almost everything [TS]

  for one year just like I don't know if I'm going to use this or not they're all [TS]

  starting to come back now playing time do you want to register this again I [TS]

  always reregister I've yeah eventually I'm gonna bankrupt self that renewal [TS]

  fees for domains that I've never used because I worry I feel like whatever the [TS]

  reason was I wanted to use it I feel like maybe it'll come back to me and [TS]

  then it'll be gone because somebody else it up and I think I had it had to do was [TS]

  pay 15 bucks or ten bucks or whatever and just let it ride for another year [TS]

  III domains for these novels that I wrote like five years ago that I keep [TS]

  meaning to rewrite and I i I kinda don't wanna let him go because they're pretty [TS]

  great domains if I ever finish the novels and sell them or something I [TS]

  would want to have the domain so I just keep an eye on that could be Twitter's [TS]

  business models they just started charging you for a subsequent how'd you [TS]

  get one user name for free I would have to start paying 50 I'm looking at my [TS]

  Twitter I've got like 10 accounts in my Twitter [TS]

  how many are you so there are used yeah yeah pretty much I've got some that [TS]

  aren't I got a couple good ones but it's all you know all these different sites [TS]

  and podcasts and stuff for all of them [TS]

  alright so chrome here's the other thing in this apart is the argument that I saw [TS]

  and that to me was very clear and it's like to me and I hate to broadly [TS]

  generalize but i i think it's true in this case is that there's a third of a [TS]

  myopic but maybe it's a little bit more I don't know what the word is but it's [TS]

  where you only can see your own perspective and you can't see anyone [TS]

  else's perspective and to me a lot of these web developer not all web [TS]

  developers but the web developers who jumped on this particular story line [TS]

  this so far as they all seem to not be able to even see things from Apple's [TS]

  angle right and that to me is what you what you wrote [TS]

  I'll put your thing in the senate for sure it's really the first thing that [TS]

  made me want to have you as my guest this week as I thought your thing was [TS]

  short and sweet and I thought it really hit the point clearly that this is not [TS]

  stop this not apples interest Apple is not going to be enthusiastic over [TS]

  regardless of the consensus of web standards and that's exactly what people [TS]

  jumped on you for but they don't they can't see that and the thing that kept [TS]

  coming up in a couple people who made this point but the gist of it if you [TS]

  read between the lines what they want them to do what they seem to want Apple [TS]

  to do is just give up on WebKit and and let Roman blank which is Google's for of [TS]

  WebKit takeover just like dislike chrome do what it wants on iOS or even you know [TS]

  and they would even I'm sure they would even say just you know you don't have to [TS]

  build it in or out of the box but just let the version of Chrome that you [TS]

  download from App Store use blank and I think they don't go this far but I think [TS]

  you know once that happened they would realize and let blink do what it wants [TS]

  in terms of being able to install apps on the homepage on it [TS]

  which is clearly outside the bounds of what any kind of app from the App Store [TS]

  can do today because Google with playing and chrome is moving very quickly in [TS]

  implementing prospective new web standards for things like local story [TS]

  agent for background updates and stuff like that very very quickly and WebKit [TS]

  is moving and always has it seems to be moved a little bit slowly not that they [TS]

  don't support stuff but that they seemed kid is more of a conservative standards [TS]

  based rendering engine then blank is and maybe then Mozilla's whatever they call [TS]

  the rendering engine [TS]

  they've got a new one just miss tilly as an organization and that reason you know [TS]

  there's a reason why blank was forked from WebKit I mean Google used to be the [TS]

  second biggest contributor to WebKit after Apple and the reason basic [TS]

  basically the reason they forked and took it on her own and name their [TS]

  version blink was that they Google and Apple had different priorities so if [TS]

  Apple had one if Apple followed any of this and want you know was in line with [TS]

  them all they would have had to do all along is just accept all of Google's or [TS]

  not all just most or more a lot more of Google's you know proposed patches and [TS]

  additions to WebKit and they would have had exactly what these people seem to [TS]

  think they want it to be like a reason why it had to be a fork and the whole [TS]

  point it looks like an end-around to me this is the this is the well if you [TS]

  don't if you don't want to do this just put chrome on there and let and then [TS]

  we'll have you know it's it's busy make y tu bhi Android make it like enteritis [TS]

  then we then we can have what we want which is problematic for a couple was [TS]

  first off talk about giving one vendor the keys to the web you do want to [TS]

  vendors pushing and pulling in mobile you want them pushing and pulling each [TS]

  other you don't [TS]

  well unless you really are in the bag for one of them or the other of them and [TS]

  I'm sure we've been accused of being the bag for Apple and we've you know [TS]

  essentially accused of being in the bag for Google but if you what you really [TS]

  want is for the standards process to be a portion a pole and have a DS stuff [TS]

  that neither Apple or Google is entirely happy with but they can live with and [TS]

  that is like a middle a middle ground and that's the stuff that they're both [TS]

  willing to to do so that that makes sense as opposed to saying well why [TS]

  don't you just give you know let it be [TS]

  chrome on on iOS know we can run with it plus let's let's also say that's a [TS]

  totally unrealistic thought that you would have a scenario where you go to [TS]

  your bank and the bank says what we've got a nap but it's a web app so what [TS]

  here's what you need to do if you're on an iPhone you need to go to the AppStore [TS]

  and download chrome and install it and then come back here and then we'll let [TS]

  you top something and install it I know that will never happen that's just never [TS]

  gonna happen it's unrealistic and I think it shows how a lot of the people [TS]

  who are having these conversations are not thinking like a regular user their [TS]

  thinking like a web developer a developer a very technical person [TS]

  because you know just making chrome available for iOS would be great for [TS]

  power users like Mike Hurley about this cuz he uses chrome like if you could use [TS]

  the crown rendering engine as a power users like a ok that would be great but [TS]

  you cannot ever count on that being a [TS]

  that's never gonna take over people are on iOS are not going to rush to adopt [TS]

  chrome it's just not going to happen it would always be a minority browser [TS]

  that's actually why I kind of okay not necessarily with embedding like at [TS]

  mobile apps inside but I'd be ok if Apple said you know yeah ok you can run [TS]

  within the Chrome App itself you can run your went rendering engine will let you [TS]

  do that if they did that I don't think chrome would ever be more than a tiny [TS]

  fraction of the web pages viewed 90 s ever because most people never gonna [TS]

  download I we should point out cause I know from my email that there are a lot [TS]

  of people out there who are rightfully [TS]

  confused about this issue because a lot of the email I got from readers in [TS]

  support of apple and against this so far as the new I he wrote to say how can [TS]

  they say this here's the link to Chrome App Store which is a reasonable mistake [TS]

  to make because chrome on the absurd does exist it is popular with the fair [TS]

  number but I think you're right [TS]

  minority you know decided minority of iOS users but the rules of the App Store [TS]

  are if you want to render HTML and anyway you have to use the API's for [TS]

  WebKit and there's a bunch of them now and I we don't have to get into the [TS]

  differences between the different ways that you can embed a WebKit you but [TS]

  basically every browser in the App Store and there's a bunch i cab there's like a [TS]

  bee just for iOS I can probably is probably another one of those categories [TS]

  where if I I haven't looked for a while but this probably like 200 apps in the [TS]

  App Store that our web browsers Chrome obviously would be the one that's most [TS]

  used in most famous but it's using the iOS system version of webcam because it [TS]

  and that's the rules it has to be and so what chrome does is it does all the [TS]

  other things that are browser does it lets you login with your Google [TS]

  credentials and have your tabs you know singing across your bookmarks my wife [TS]

  uses chrome and then on the desktop and so she's got chrome on her iPad because [TS]

  it's gotta bookmark send it but it's still using WebKit it's just using you [TS]

  know wrapped around Google's Google Sync stuff and and apps you know there are [TS]

  apps that 44 you know I think by definition tend to be geared towards [TS]

  nerdier users who will do things like give you an option I think [TS]

  sweet but has the option where you could say when I open a link in a browser can [TS]

  you know you want it to be Safari or Chrome if you if you have crimes salt so [TS]

  that you can open stuff in chromosome openings the story is an iOS 9 all that [TS]

  stuff's going to go away because everybody's going to use the Safari view [TS]

  control and that's just gonna be Safari inside the app completely and you know i [TS]

  i just i this is not the direction Apple is going with this stuff but it is it [TS]

  can be confusing to talk about the differences between a rendering engine [TS]

  and the browser but basically it's you know what you know it's the chrome is [TS]

  the browser what goes around the rectangle where the HTML is rendered is [TS]

  the browser and that rectangle where the content is you know you know that the [TS]

  part that gray during fireball that's the rendering engine and this survey get [TS]

  a good example that this this new Safari ViewController so I could for example [TS]

  every everybody out there uses some kind of everybody listen to me right now is [TS]

  using some kind of Twitter client on your iPhone whether it's the Twitter app [TS]

  or weed pot or Twitterrific they are having in browser [TS]

  things that you toppling you don't get switched to another apt to stay right [TS]

  there and it renders it right there but if you ever noticed when you do that you [TS]

  don't get your bookmarks it's not connected to your tabs when you go to [TS]

  support the next time whatever that pages if you left it open as an open [TS]

  because it's the rendering engine is in the Twitter and the browser is a [TS]

  separate app with its own tabs things so with this new thing and I was nine [TS]

  that's a part of you controller apps will be able to open in the same way [TS]

  it's a lot more like male has always been an iOS like when you send email in [TS]

  app it's using your actual email account that you can mail that's what the Safari [TS]

  view controllers going to do its gonna be a real Safari view right and the app [TS]

  you'll be able to see all your regular Safari bookmarks and bookmarklets and [TS]

  Petra and then you go back to Safari Safari will be aware of that tab that [TS]

  open so you can see that this is one of the reasons why Apple you know maybe [TS]

  with say this I know some people who feel strongly you know we should be able [TS]

  to install whatever they want war roll their eyes on mine even saying I agree [TS]

  with it but this is a reason why some people at a ball clearly have resisted [TS]

  until now allowing users to set a system wide third-party default web browser [TS]

  because when they come up with features like this to users in temple's mind are [TS]

  better off having been using Safari all along because now here's this amazing [TS]

  new feature and you get to use it because you've been a safari is alright [TS]

  and Google is never going to be able to provide that kind of feature so so then [TS]

  you're gonna have even if you like let's say tweet by or or Twitter epic embeds [TS]

  this new Safari view controller thing and also give you the option to go open [TS]

  in chrome with those experiencing totally different because we want to [TS]

  open a separate browser you know separate apps which you out of the app [TS]

  you're in and the other one is going to keep you in the app that you're in but [TS]

  later this safari window on top and that's weird to now you've got this like [TS]

  opening another a person's not which is just not an end it cuts both ways I mean [TS]

  I use a third-party email client and every now and then I tap on something [TS]

  somewhere in Apple wants me to use mail and I think I well you know you know [TS]

  what I end up doing is I set up all my accounts and mail anyway until it not to [TS]

  check the mail and that way at least I can send mail from there that's usually [TS]

  what is trying to do but you know that's just the brakes because the upside is [TS]

  you get all this type super tight integration between these things and you [TS]

  know you can't make it a lot harder to open it up to third parties but it makes [TS]

  it a better user experience assuming the users are using the built-in apps which [TS]

  almost every user is that's the other thing we lose sight of I think there [TS]

  were a lot of geeks who were shocked at the statistic that more than half of [TS]

  of iPhone users use the Notes app every day regularly meet regularly like well [TS]

  that's appalling there are so many better notes out than that yes but it's [TS]

  on the device sits there and so people use it and people use mail and people [TS]

  use Safari that's just gonna go outside when I wasn't opposed his podcast couple [TS]

  weeks ago and he was incredulous that I use Apple maps their statistics that [TS]

  i've seen show that over 70% of iOS users use Apple maps and map says baby [TS]

  is clearly the may be the one where the be the most third party users especially [TS]

  around the world where Apple maps is nowhere near as consistent as Google [TS]

  Maps says that's one where you know you could really make the argument where I [TS]

  would make the argument that for me and my use its as good as Google Maps for [TS]

  for my use almost every time you know the only time the only thing I've used [TS]

  in the last two years is transit in New York City and hopefully you know once I [TS]

  switch styles and I won't even need to do that anymore but I totally understand [TS]

  every time I say this email from somebody in another country and they [TS]

  show me like what their neighborhood looks like in the two and Google Maps [TS]

  Google Maps and Apple maps you know like you know the name of the town so I [TS]

  understand obviously their own but to back that it you know somewhere around [TS]

  seventy percent and it's a decided advantage it just shows how powerful [TS]

  being built in app and let alone now you know how how comfortable Safari and [TS]

  Chrome are or may land and spark or what's the third party and I'm using I'm [TS]

  using mailbox on my iPad and I'm using a red mark on my iPhone right now [TS]

  yeah that's a good man holy cow that's got me thinking about switching yeah [TS]

  really does I mean I'm gonna go back to mail for I was nine just to see you know [TS]

  how it's changed but that's a it's a really good nap this is like that was [TS]

  that one of the subtext of the latest Apple event to when they rolled out [TS]

  music that was a subtext was and he did you hear about how all our default apps [TS]

  are really great and use even even when they're tough competition these get used [TS]

  more than everything else [TS]

  well guess what streaming service is built into a built-in app now [TS]

  yeah that was definitely part of them just like this building that's powerful [TS]

  built-in apps don't mean Apple music's gonna gonna take over the world or [TS]

  anything but it is awfully powerful that its integrated and and it's on every [TS]

  device that's and and I read a piece today about podcasts and about how there [TS]

  was some survey that said that not only because there's a built-in podcast at [TS]

  nunnally are most podcast listen to on iOS devices and not Android but that [TS]

  most podcasts on iowa's or listened to through the built-in podcast app because [TS]

  again its built-in hard to compete with some like Marco doesn't have a good [TS]

  business on with overcast but you know that's among people who think to look [TS]

  for something more in the App Store and find it and then buy it [TS]

  vs like a podcast there's a all search for podcast there it is that's where all [TS]

  the podcasts are and it's just that's been the platform owner after his [TS]

  vibrant and that's great but Apple knows that some stuff needs to be in the [TS]

  platform at least a basic version of it has to be in the platform because the [TS]

  platform needs to be rich like that and that's why they do that's why they [TS]

  improve notes and that's why maps associate cessful this just in from from [TS]

  the office there is a chance I cannot check it out but I'm not going to well [TS]

  there's a chance that I bought the code or [TS]

  carries could be there it's just talk show without the so anybody out there is [TS]

  buying some shaving stuff you tried the code we know that we may be headed this [TS]

  maybe not maybe this will be a little surprised you just ate it all in many [TS]

  ways if you try the code the talk show and you don't get any money off your [TS]

  order try the code talk show without the end and one of those too I guarantee you [TS]

  save some bucks now it's like a game now let's take a quick trip and while I'm [TS]

  talking about sponsors allow me to take a moment here and thank our next one and [TS]

  it's another old time friend of the show good people [TS]

  tractor really sad that all of our photos from recent years so many of them [TS]

  are trapped only on digital devices or maybe there are Instagram and you really [TS]

  only look at them on these devices temporarily fracture is a modern way to [TS]

  break your photos out of the digital world the best ones the ones you really [TS]

  want to save the ones you really want to see all the time and get them printed on [TS]

  a piece of analog media that you can hang on your wall you can pop up on your [TS]

  desk [TS]

  here's what they do fracture they print your photos directly on pure class real [TS]

  class comes with a foam back that's ready to mount right out of the box [TS]

  little one that comes with everything you need to hang on a wall comes with [TS]

  screw and stuff like that the bigger ones that you can prop up have the [TS]

  casing is as interesting as the printing technology that but it isn't it just [TS]

  takes your photos which let's face it our all did you know you're already [TS]

  ahead of the game in terms of having print because you have to have to look [TS]

  at it [TS]

  I don't know there's something about a photo that is printed on a piece of [TS]

  analog medium that has to mean more emotional and I'll give you an example [TS]

  here's my wife Amy at the the live talk show the couple weeks ago when I had [TS]

  shoulder to shoulder technology executive yeah so that was especially [TS]

  and she's was backstage and she's like my phone through the curtain and took an [TS]

  amazing photo truly truly amazing photo meeting alongside Phil sort of we were [TS]

  front let in reality but from her perspective backstage we were back lit [TS]

  by these lights in front of us which almost have like the way that they [TS]

  showed up on a picture almost like a science fiction filled it almost looked [TS]

  like we were sitting in front of like a screening of the science fiction two [TS]

  stars and promised with these two spot light fantastic picture she posted it [TS]

  Instagram [TS]

  Instagram [TS]

  and I thought it was great at all it was great and I you know give it a little [TS]

  hard on Instagram and there goes my friends at fracture as this is I was [TS]

  away on vacation is true story got back last night one of the things that we we [TS]

  we had the mail helped today and it actually worked which is crazy I know [TS]

  about people in other countries but it may be in other cities but in [TS]

  philadelphia it often doesn't work when you tell them we got a whole pile of [TS]

  mail today including a bunch of packages and one of them was from Procter and it [TS]

  was for me and I thought that's weird I don't remember I did not order anything [TS]

  from pressure recently and when you do it from practice stuff comes it will [TS]

  open it up and here it was little square picture they took out of Amy's Instagram [TS]

  feed that picture printed on glass for me and it just as I didn't know what it [TS]

  was I opened it up and I saw it and I was just like WoW and it's just like a [TS]

  little jolt to my heart and I thought wow that's great so anyway my thanks to [TS]

  instruct to fracture and for the gift blood to all of you do that with your [TS]

  favorite pictures go through your Instagram and pick a couple of your [TS]

  favorites and send them to fracture and get them printed out and you really are [TS]

  going to appreciate it looks so great as if they can get the code right because [TS]

  if you do get it right you gonna get 15% off your first fracture order and the [TS]

  code for my show is I don't have it here and drum roll call general 2222 how many [TS]

  guests it's during fireball and we'll see if that's right but my thanks go to [TS]

  fracture get something printed out do it and and use their coding or [TS]

  save some money and you have some beautiful thank all six of them either [TS]

  you know you can use use this use the I know that this is the code that these [TS]

  guys they sponsored that live show the code that they used for that one was you [TS]

  know it's funny I have a rare for me but I can't say it's because i dont have the [TS]

  Safari status bar showing its WWDC use that code [TS]

  ABDC and then they'll think you're coming from the Phil Schiller episode so [TS]

  either way you'll get the money so the other thing that we've missed while I [TS]

  was away on vacation was this whole thing this sort of blew up and I did [TS]

  write about this well you know you know you never really I'm discovering that it [TS]

  is it's a curious how that's going for you know you're in it probably was [TS]

  different when you were at a publication that real staff that could keep [TS]

  everything you can you take care of it for me and then you go on vacation [TS]

  everybody helped each other out but when you know it's I do have them or in [TS]

  writing for me a couple of days a week for six colors I was able to say sorta [TS]

  like dan this is the day that were driving in the car for eight hours can [TS]

  you read on that day also it's shifting gears from my brain works 'as thinking [TS]

  of like macworld we post ten stories a day and I actually look to you and jim [TS]

  and Federico and I you know there's no there's no rules for this and I want to [TS]

  do right by my sponsors and not like a band in the site for a week but at the [TS]

  same time I have to train myself out of the idea that if i dont have like five [TS]

  new items a day or even you know that if a day goes by and I all I have is a [TS]

  linker to its fine and I have to learn that lesson that it's not you know I'm [TS]

  not running a comprehensive news site that is gonna have to feed the beast [TS]

  every day and I i cant i just i cant im one person the sponsorship model to me [TS]

  is it works both ways where if you're writing more now having a busy day [TS]

  you're getting a bunch of things and more you get a lot more pages per day [TS]

  and people might see the the sponsor link in the sidebar if you have it there [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  but on the other hand with the idea that you post like a little thank you to the [TS]

  sponsor that that I did then and the times when you're slower their leases [TS]

  the way I see it the times when I'm slower and I'm not posting as much that [TS]

  post thanking the sponsor state is closer to the top stronger and it you [TS]

  know and I don't know which one is better I don't know if it's better to be [TS]

  the sponsor on a busy week a daring fireball or slower we could do fireball [TS]

  but I think there's a very simple argument to be made that there are pros [TS]

  and cons to both of them you know one of them berries your thing sooner and the [TS]

  other one you have more pages being loaded during the week so I've never [TS]

  once got a complaint about that every once in a while sometimes August is a [TS]

  little slower to sell this year at last year August did not sell for me it was [TS]

  like I think like twice during the month of August I had to post like a next week [TS]

  is still available to get in touch baba's sort of you know really sort of [TS]

  down to the last day this year August sold out for me already [TS]

  July so I don't know but did you know so August is a weird month therefore [TS]

  advertisers infamously in all forms of media TV print I mean it's always slow [TS]

  but other than the month of August I've never had complained about that yeah [TS]

  it's me sometimes people will say to me like he is Chris house christmas was [TS]

  thinking about buying turner say I see that Christmas is open and my answer has [TS]

  always been and I've never wanted to complain about it it is slower because [TS]

  people are aware cannot get your not getting those pages of bored at work or [TS]

  have just sat down and i just want to see what's going on but on the other [TS]

  hand I think that what happens a lot of people are family events and they go to [TS]

  their iPhones so it's it's actually not that slow week yeah I agree agree it's [TS]

  yeah I just kind of feel like I'm still trying to get into the rhythm of life [TS]

  what's the heartbeat of the site I don't want the site to seem like a two-banded [TS]

  rape so I want to keep up a little bit of a rhythm there also [TS]

  yeah I mean I just want to send a message that the site is here in the [TS]

  killing of stuff on it and I'm still learning I'm still learning but it is it [TS]

  is definitely a change [TS]

  age and it's not like I totally ignored work when I went on vacation you know I [TS]

  would be responsible and I will check in and I would occasionally see the news [TS]

  was breaking and write something I mean I wrote actually won an award for a [TS]

  thing I wrote my in-laws dining room table on an iPad and actually won the [TS]

  war damn like that is I will always look at that I've got the little plaque here [TS]

  somewhere and and was like for online commentary some journalism group and I i [TS]

  look at it and I think well i pad at the dining room table in Irvine but but it's [TS]

  different here cuz you know something something happens like that no law [TS]

  something I'm like well I can't pass this to somebody if I wanna say [TS]

  something about it I need to say something about it was just a little bit [TS]

  different not having that not having that net anymore but I'm getting I'm [TS]

  getting there I'm getting used to it I know that it was August I don't know the [TS]

  exact date but I was actually at the Jersey Shore with my folks in Miami and [TS]

  Jonas heading out to dinner so it probably around five or six o'clock in [TS]

  the evening when the news broke that steve Jobs was stepping down as CEO and [TS]

  somebody texted me and was like you know was one of those things that everybody a [TS]

  lot of people when they first get there was a sort of thing you texted other [TS]

  people about right you heard that you think somebody and you say I got a text [TS]

  and about a lot of people who get fat you know saw the news the same way we're [TS]

  like there's got to be a mistake this you know and then your second time is [TS]

  actually makes a lot of sense you know kind of dreading it but like I said you [TS]

  know told my family you know my parents a little bit more or less understand [TS]

  what it is but they understand it well enough that my you know when I said that [TS]

  day everybody everybody nobody game is single moment of grief of ok we [TS]

  understand you're not coming to dinner had to drop everything and think about [TS]

  what I wanted to do it right you know that's one of the few times I can think [TS]

  of braided but yes you are on call and it makes me worry it does make me wear [TS]

  one thing I don't do it and I if I do I have tremendous anxiety even if it's [TS]

  just for a couple of hours I do not like fine without wifi as I do kind of feel [TS]

  like I need to be online all the time just in case something like that I gotta [TS]

  say I'm not as worried about it as I was and this is only because for years every [TS]

  single thing I did was in the frame of what is Steve Jobs dies like even when [TS]

  he wasn't that sick and it was just like what is Steve Jobs dies in plane crash [TS]

  or or something like that I I had that like what could be so huge [TS]

  what is the huge thing and after he died I realize why would someone is Steve [TS]

  Jobs died oh ok and I just for whatever reason that was like I always felt like [TS]

  that was the show the number one story that would that they were never be where [TS]

  you have to set up all the alarms and I mean it would still be true if it's [TS]

  something you know heaven forbid happened to major Apple executive [TS]

  disasters that could happen but whatever it was like I think I have a kind of a [TS]

  complex about that [TS]

  about Steve Jobs and with him gone that little neurotic part of my brain got [TS]

  like filed away [TS]

  disconnected and so it's not quite as bad now but you're right I mean this is [TS]

  that this is part of this business it again less true now that i feel like i [TS]

  dont im not in the breaking news business I may be in the breaking in [TS]

  else's business plan on breaking news business we're at Macworld like [TS]

  literally if something even remotely big broke I would just be in the CMS making [TS]

  a new article saying headline write a paragraph you know more and more [TS]

  information to come [TS]

  post like just to get out there cuz we were really in that game and I'm not in [TS]

  that game so much now but it's true you also you know I do think this is [TS]

  breaking analysis in a way you know you don't want to be left with not saying [TS]

  anything about something huge that happens that matters the people who read [TS]

  your site on my site you need to you need to be engaged and and I at least [TS]

  have damn to help out on on some counts but you know verifiable as you so it [TS]

  needs to be you or its nobody you know you gotta get ya it's right for a while [TS]

  if I don't regret it but I wonder if I ever painted myself in a corner where [TS]

  it's like you know like Trump with this haircut like everybody's giving him [TS]

  grief about it but he's like stuck with it right you can't really give in you [TS]

  know it's like I feel like every single word ever written during fireball was by [TS]

  me you know it's a nice streak but in return you know turns into a Cal Ripken [TS]

  thing at some point maybe I should take a month off and not do anything but you [TS]

  know I really don't want to say to go dark for a right but then I don't want [TS]

  to guest post by David Letterman no guest house right but I but I even said [TS]

  to you and I did when I did your show to talk about Letterman that I actually [TS]

  feel like that hurt him in the long run where I feel like there is a stretch a [TS]

  couple of years ago where it felt like maybe he was a little burned out it felt [TS]

  like he would you know and I don't think that ever happened to Carson because [TS]

  Carson as the years went on to cough up more and more time and one of the ways [TS]

  he just you know was able to take off time [TS]

  was that is that it is showing reruns they had guest house yeah he was working [TS]

  three days a week and 0 for 4 30 or 40 [TS]

  a deal and well so only doing this for 10 months now I mean I had I look at you [TS]

  if you said you did sort of set this model but some of the people who [TS]

  followed you like Jim I like federico so the loop and and Mac stories they they [TS]

  changed the equation a little bit and you know jim has like dat mark and he [TS]

  said john king and he appeared going for a while like supplementing with Jim does [TS]

  and I think they've marked post more stuff to the loop then gym does at this [TS]

  point and then federico although he is the primary author of of Mac stories [TS]

  he's got a budget like I said Brett Terpstra there the other day and he's [TS]

  got some people who contribute and that I felt like that was enough that that [TS]

  sort of freaked me out like an end with so many people I used to work with [TS]

  losing their jobs simultaneously I said to dan you know in lieu of him getting a [TS]

  full time job somewhere would you like to to write some stuff with me and in [TS]

  the first days after macworld have big layoffs like Dan Frakes wrote a thing [TS]

  and you know a few people wrote things for six colors but with Dan it was a [TS]

  good opportunity because he wanted to keep his hand in in in the game he [TS]

  didn't want to banish from writing about Apple cuz that's his profession but he [TS]

  wasn't working somewhere full time so you know i think is beneficial for him [TS]

  is really beneficial for me but I would I have done that if if I hadn't seen [TS]

  some other people who who said no it's not just me it's sort of me and some of [TS]

  my friends were doing this and I might not of and it's it's just a different [TS]

  feel it's just different I can't I could see it wasn't one of the key or was it [TS]

  any bail I remember somebody who is like a big lead blogger did this at one point [TS]

  where they basically said I'm handing the [TS]

  the rain is to cut he's done that for years he has but when he does it is he [TS]

  gives it away for the whole week exactly you know I actually I believe the first [TS]

  person whoever did it [TS]

  it for him I think this is a little bit of inside the world of personal personal [TS]

  / professional blogging whatever you call like this thing that we do trivia [TS]

  is I think his first guest post her was Adam Lisa core was the first time I'd [TS]

  never even heard of him before and we can look as if it wasn't the first he [TS]

  was one of the first and it was before Twitter and if so is before anybody [TS]

  who's heard of a timely support by Twitter had heard of them and it was [TS]

  certainly before anybody has heard of animals to go before sandwiches video [TS]

  and I went back and read it and it was of course fantastic it was like holy [TS]

  hell this guy's amazing but he's done it for years and he picks you know very it [TS]

  he he picks people though a lot of times in a good but he he and his kisses part [TS]

  of Jason Kottke being Jason Clark in being very talented he picks people who [TS]

  bring like a very different voice to the site like people who are not cut key [TS]

  like whatever that means to be cut you like that sort of hard to define yeah I [TS]

  forget all the guy he's had a bunch of posters over the years when I was in [TS]

  Arizona visiting my mom we're watching a baseball game and a sandwich video came [TS]

  on and I said hey I know that guy and how how and I told they're like oh well [TS]

  it's just that and now she sends me emails saying hey I thought I saw that [TS]

  friend of yours again on a different ad ok I don't need updates about the [TS]

  sandwich video empire but it's cute it's we were at a bar the first time that we [TS]

  some damage on real TV barred ESPN was on the TV on the bar for real moment [TS]

  when you see him on real TV instead of the internet we will be posting things [TS]

  on the internet what everybody don't TV right we could get the words out of my [TS]

  mouth I forget which one of the two of us noticed first but we both were just [TS]

  like not even saying anything just like likeforlike we know that I we know [TS]

  everybody look like to mad people but we were like you're traveling you see ads [TS]

  you don't see other places and this is what this was is whatever he was selling [TS]

  in this week's was not a product that is available in my area and so I was just [TS]

  like I've never seen this before but there is his cell with what came to mind [TS]

  to me was was the scene in goodfellas when the crew finds out that tommy got [TS]

  made because it's like they're never gonna get made just right he said he's [TS]

  gonna could get me and they're in tight with them so this is the best there ever [TS]

  gonna do is have a maid guy and we're never going to be on TV I don't want to [TS]

  be on TV commercials no way I mean that's not going to happen so the [TS]

  closest were gonna get to being on TV is having Sandwich be on TV so we feel like [TS]

  Cal is amazing [TS]

  exactly exactly and so hopefully it's the same thing is when people when when [TS]

  your relatives don't understand what you do read on the internet this is always [TS]

  the case I said this right after I think when we talked about about macworld and [TS]

  all that at the end of last year that one of the things that I took great [TS]

  pride in who was so many people we published in the magazine and they could [TS]

  like take a piece of paper [TS]

  of a magazine with their picture in their name on it and say look mom book [TS]

  Grampa I wrote a thing in a magazine and it was like validation in a way cuz it [TS]

  was understandable and and not something that people you knew got to do unless [TS]

  they were very special and I i feel like watching on a TV is a little bit like [TS]

  that too it's like wow that's the real television this is crap that we'd real [TS]

  TV I just hope that Adam doesn't come to the same and you mean I tell anybody out [TS]

  there wasn't much good what is wrong with you go do that immediately and then [TS]

  goes into Syracuse's [TS]

  discussion which i dont im not im laughing just because it's it's good not [TS]

  because it's why I have asked I'm hoping I do this before somebody else gets it [TS]

  but i wanna do in Kabul with serious serious about godfather mando you got it [TS]

  would be like it if if goodfellas was 84 hours [TS]

  godfather someday I'll do that cuz I want that we you know so much about like [TS]

  sci-fi stuff more more than anything else but I do want to do more classic [TS]

  movie stuff and that's one that I mean I would love to do goodfellas but I feel [TS]

  like it's kind of it's been done I would not want to just rehash that same [TS]

  conversation that John and Dan had that's one of my favorite movies of all [TS]

  time but godfather I'd love to do that to a class of 2011 break to make and I [TS]

  gotta talk to you about back place I feel like this show is loaded up with [TS]

  the all-stars of fireball and the talk-show sponsorships these guys have [TS]

  been with the show for as long as I've been doing it [TS]

  fantastic service its online unlimited backup for your Mac you go to [TS] you download their free install it on your Mac but the thing in [TS]

  your system preferences it written by former Apple engineers seriously good [TS]

  good software on the Mac there's PC version 2 and native this isn't some [TS]

  kind of cross-platform you know crap like we're talking about before this is [TS]

  really good stuff you install it [TS]

  what happened then everything on your Mac starts getting backed up to your [TS]

  back please [TS]

  account online in the class [TS]

  they have over 150 petabytes of data backed up doesn't matter how much stuff [TS]

  you've got to have you got a terabyte of stuff got four terabytes of stuff and [TS]

  you got an external hard drive in addition to your internal hard drive it [TS]

  all gets backed up now is there any kind of magic that makes it all get backed up [TS]

  immediately no definitely not so the more stuff you have the longer it's [TS]

  going to take to do it you get a 30 day free trial should be long enough with [TS]

  any kind of modern in a connection to get the whole thing backed up by the end [TS]

  of the Free Trial after that what happened well of course everything gets [TS]

  backed up incremental after that so one file changes that I'll get back to you [TS]

  got nice controls you composite you can follow the amount of bandwidth that we [TS]

  use if you need to do something else like record a podcast and you just [TS]

  signed up but seriously once you have installed you never noticed it just runs [TS]

  no hassle [TS]

  does exactly what you think it should do which is just silently backup everything [TS]

  to the cloud [TS]

  how can you access and after that you could do it almost any way you could [TS]

  imagine you just need one file login find that file to organize the same way [TS]

  the hierarchy is on your computer [TS]

  find the file download it right there 25% of all restores from back please [TS]

  customers are just one file that's it you can and you can do that from your [TS]

  iOS device they have an app you can log in with that get a file from your iOS [TS]

  device when yer on vacation or traveling or whatever and email it to someone so [TS]

  it's a great way it's only just back up it's a great way to just remotely access [TS]

  to stuff on your Mac from anywhere lets a catastrophe hit hard drive [TS]

  shit the bed I have to do is you can just get everything you want to download [TS]

  download is going to take what you can do is buy it on a USB hard drive they [TS]

  sell the USB hard drives costs and then they'll do you get scared FedEx next day [TS]

  here comes a USB hard drive has everything that you needed on it really [TS]

  really great stuff it really isn't just for disasters but having an offline [TS]

  backup like Backblaze out of your house somewhere just in case some kind of [TS]

  catastrophe doesn't deserve your computer but hit your home [TS]

  just cannot give you a can tell you the peace of mind that you have when you [TS]

  know that everything on your computer is backed up somewhere outside your house [TS]

  no add-ons no gimmicks no additional charges no up cells or anything like [TS]

  that you just pay five bucks per computer per month for unlimited backup [TS]

  five bucks a month and you'll sleep like a baby knowing that your stuff is backed [TS]

  up to get no credit card required just go to and the code is [TS]

  daring fireballs go to / during fire born in all know you came [TS]

  from here right away right from the beginning so my thanks to back please go [TS]

  sign up it back place dot com slash Darren fireball so the last thing I [TS]

  wanna talk about jason is this thing that came up and how it started but [TS]

  everybody at stake this month has been talking about how advertising on the web [TS]

  has made things slow and it's it's it's this weird catch 22 of that a lot of [TS]

  sites have gotten caught in I wrote about iMore during fireball just as an [TS]

  example of a state that I love I linked to all the time I know whole bunch of [TS]

  the people who weren't there I maybe I know everybody who works there a great I [TS]

  i've this staffed sites that cover the phrase but if the sites with like a [TS]

  payroll in a staff that cover Apple I think right now they're they're the top [TS]

  of the heap really do like them and I really think that day to day love their [TS]

  readers I want to do right by them and they have a website that is really heavy [TS]

  with tractors tractors and with a lot of video content you know for five [TS]

  megabytes to download just a regular article five six seven hundred words and [TS]

  they're more than just the time it takes to download if you're on a slow [TS]

  connection or something like that it's the fact that they that some of these [TS]

  tractors run execute for over a minute doing who knows what the hell they do on [TS]

  JavaScript which hurts the performance of of your battery you know and 34 [TS]

  literally I mean I think I'm exaggerating three or four hundred eight [TS]

  steeped EP calls for separate resources on the page and it sounds like well they [TS]

  should switch to different ad but it's really is sort of a catch 22 aware that [TS]

  the way for the sort of revenue need to run a site with the staff like that the [TS]

  only way to do it is through these existing ad networks and the way the ad [TS]

  networks work is exactly what you see I'm or is not outside the bounds of of [TS]

  the sort of sight in fact I would guess I haven't done this but I would guess [TS]

  that if you went around to all the sites that have you know your Mashable's and [TS]

  the verge and Engadget I was hoping somebody would waive macro pages 'cause [TS]

  they've just got to be enormous [TS]

  they they have to be mad world in IDDM you know and you know this I mean [TS]

  macworld feature you know it still does I guess we're not opposed on page load [TS]

  which I'm guessing that wasn't popular with the staff no I mean I was the [TS]

  number one thing that the staff I think I think it's still not popular with the [TS]

  with the remaining staff but certainly everybody who was there back in a year [TS]

  ago that was the number one spot to get that turned off for like six months and [TS]

  I finally got turned off and then they replaced the guy who was in charge of [TS]

  the company with a new guy who immediately turn back on it you know [TS]

  Thompson I would guess among anybody who doesn't have a site that does this Ben [TS]

  Thompson 322 yeah he got really change the pronunciation sister decker know [TS]

  well I'm gonna stick with Ben Thompson of strategic area has made the case you [TS]

  know eloquently you know that this is the business damage it did on the corner [TS]

  of that the industry has painted itself into this is the only source of [TS]

  advertising that [TS]

  can generate the sort of revenue that they need to do this how did we get here [TS]

  right now it's it's it's it's you know we saw my boss for a long time and I [TS]

  feel like most of the last couple of years I was there I did she hasn't had [TS]

  so few and he was in charge of it and he was put in charge of our company our [TS]

  company and our consumer group a good guy I really like them actually but you [TS]

  know I learned about ad networks and and about programmatic by and all these [TS]

  things like in the back in the day [TS]

  themselves but the web but back in the day it was all like really any web [TS]

  advertising has never been good I would say or rarely been good on the [TS]

  mainstream it was all its all click driven you know everybody wants to see a [TS]

  return on investment based on clicks are based on purchases which I I actually [TS]

  think is is baloney that that one of the most Deibel kind of advertising is [TS]

  branding advertising brand advertising which is another old boss of mine used [TS]

  to say a sales guy used to say you gotta be you've got to be known to be [TS]

  considered and considered to be bought and the way you get known is through [TS]

  brand advertising you see you yours then perceived as being a legitimate player [TS]

  and that's powerful but it might not lead to a direct sale right it's just to [TS]

  get a win the ballgame it's like saying you know if you sell accounting software [TS]

  and you plan get the internet with and and podcasts and websites and all that [TS]

  we're counting software are people gonna say oh yeah my company needs accounting [TS]

  software right now I'm going to click through or is it more gonna be like that [TS]

  name is gonna stick in them and a year later they're gonna think oh yeah this [TS]

  is a piece of accounting software maybe I should look into that maybe we should [TS]

  buy that but that's not measurable by the web the web has really pushed his TV [TS]

  with TV and magazines and newspapers you couldn't measure direct you can maybe do [TS]

  like a specific phone number of P O box or something like that and try to [TS]

  measure the volume [TS]

  really was very hard to do and the web made it made it much more technically [TS]

  possible to do that sort of thing and the kind of drove everything to this [TS]

  crappy instant response kind of advertising and then this takes it even [TS]

  with the ad networks it takes even further where it's no longer the heyday [TS]

  of the web where they were still Lake custom sales staffs with very specific [TS]

  like relationships with buyers who understood what your content was about [TS]

  understood you know what your audience was and now it's very much like you know [TS]

  everybody's in a pool they say who the demographics are page you know pageviews [TS]

  not even like sites but page views in certain parts of certain sites are hole [TS]

  sailed and run through us you know throughout a program that's just my a [TS]

  certain number of pages of a certain kind on a stock exchange essentially and [TS]

  it's like if you didn't think web advertising was bad enough five years [TS]

  ago it is way worse now Ben Thompson had a great piece I just made a note to put [TS]

  in the show so knock on wood it'll be in the talks crap shoot with me here great [TS]

  post explaining how the modern advertising networks work yeah give me [TS]

  the shivers [TS]

  I learned that last couple years and in terms of [TS]

  got a whole bunch of plays I haven't had the time they've been away but I [TS]

  probably will I don't know about it if it happened before this podcast tears [TS]

  but sometime within the next three days in a row about it and linked all these [TS]

  things but there's a piece did you day which is i think a new site over tonight [TS]

  I've never heard of it before but it's interesting article by Ricardo Bilton [TS]

  about how the washington post cut it page load time by 85% in two years that [TS]

  two years ago the typical article page took eight seconds [TS]

  for the page to load and that I was measuring like where it was a usable by [TS]

  the you know not necessarily completely done [TS]

  but at the point where it looked done to the typical reader and they've in two [TS]

  years by making it like a top priority in the whole development staff that they [TS]

  they've got it down to 1.7 seconds which is an 85% performance increase and they [TS]

  mention this is in the article is interesting that this is the guy he's [TS]

  the his name is gregory Fran check upon presenting a trade name spelled a little [TS]

  usually but he's his title is chief architect at the washington post and one [TS]

  of the quotes from him is that in commerce there's a quote that one second [TS]

  load time is the one that everyone wants to hit in media it doesn't seem as if [TS]

  there was ever that much emphasis on performance frantic and that's in other [TS]

  words that we are writing like a commerce web site on the web [TS]

  there is this mantra gotta be one second or less or we're gonna lose this person [TS]

  like god forbid somebody like goes so far as to put their product in their [TS]

  cart and then they go to check out and they're waiting and waiting and waiting [TS]

  and I guess gretna close well that would drive that team and rightfully so they [TS]

  would say we've got to get that one second so we don't lose them and that [TS]

  media sites didn't have that that drive maybe they would be nice if the page [TS]

  loaded in a second but you know it's bad and in two seconds isn't bad three [TS]

  seconds is about three seconds bad I'm sure they're not gonna they're not gonna [TS]

  leave us if it gets 24 seconds on average and then all of a sudden you end [TS]

  up with the washington post taking eight seconds to load which is a long time it [TS]

  is I mean and you know we want about how amazing you know how amazed with Thomas [TS]

  Jefferson behave if you could show him a web where every page loaded in eight [TS]

  seconds well be blown away but guess what you know I wouldn't take him long [TS]

  before he be saying they can't we get these the little quicker it eventually [TS]

  no matter who you are where your perspective is eight seconds is too long [TS]

  but the media backed themselves into a corner anyway this article with the post [TS]

  concludes there's a lot that put publishers don't have complete control [TS]

  of row ever and it's basically ads and here's the quote from the guy friends we [TS]

  have very little control over adds that load later slowly but we wanted to make [TS]

  sure the court user experience with a solid is possible that we have control [TS]

  over that frantic and that to me is so telling that here's the washington post [TS]

  and they even they said they don't have control over the time it takes for the [TS]

  add that to me is is startling yeah well you everything's on networks and so I [TS]

  mean I think what your goal needs to be is you need to not be held accountable [TS]

  you know you need you need you build your pages so that they load regardless [TS]

  of what happens with the ads is basically we have to do and that can be [TS]

  hard I I can't tell you how much when I would fight for a development time at [TS]

  IDG with our development group so much time window at UPS so much time and end [TS]

  and the big problem was a top so often driven by sales people who would sell [TS]

  some crazy campaign and then they would have to deliver it and then the front [TS]

  end developers would have to try and find ways to make it not break all the [TS]

  pages which is totally backwards way of doing it but that would happen all the [TS]

  time and and so much went into that and and the fact was more could go into it [TS]

  because you're you're imagine I mean it's like anything imagine something [TS]

  that's completely out of your control being dropped into every every little [TS]

  bit of product that you do that's what happens with these things and say it's [TS]

  it's mind-boggling you try to mitigate it you try to reduce it as much as [TS]

  possible and make it so that if the ad server fails I remember doesn't happen [TS]

  so much anymore but they used to be a time when one JavaScript call breaking [TS]

  somewhere would prevent us from loading like anyway because I don't and I could [TS]

  be wrong here but I'm pretty sure that in the early days all JavaScript was [TS]

  synchronous it was amazing great to get to that part of the page and it would [TS]

  just wait for the third party server to load yeah and the way pages used to [TS]

  render to [TS]

  you know I can you not like anything below it in the DOM would not render and [TS]

  I don't even think that was that long ago I seem to recall there were problems [TS]

  were on time when the deck network server went down big chunks of daring [TS]

  fireball didn't render because the deck network JavaScript include call was at [TS]

  the top of the HTML not at the bottom so it's not even you know then that you [TS]

  know that's only going back to the daring fireballer let alone the nineties [TS]

  here's my theory on this and run it by you because then again this is one [TS]

  reason why not have you on the show this week so you can speak to this to me I've [TS]

  always thought and I've always been an outsider I've never had a full-time job [TS]

  working at it publication what I always saw and to me it seems very obvious in [TS]

  the early years was for the most part the big-name web in the early years came [TS]

  from two sides came from print and it came from TV so CNN had a big news web [TS]

  site near Times had to be news website and in both cases institutionally the [TS]

  institutions did not value the websites as much as they value their traditional [TS]

  form so print publications [TS]

  favored print over was the favorite child over the web and the web was this [TS]

  thing that they were maybe not even drunk kicking and screaming to but you [TS]

  know in some cases some publications I think that was true in a lot of them it [TS]

  just was always the second secondary child and they didn't have respect for [TS]

  it and they didn't have the respect for it that they have for their flagship [TS]

  product because here's what I would say the New York Times was never gonna let [TS]

  advertisers into their printing press Like You Chevy you know doesn't get to [TS]

  put an ad in the New York Times and get to go into the printing press and slow [TS]

  down the delivery of the next morning's New York Times because they want to make [TS]

  sure [TS]

  that you know the colors are aligned on the printing press or just draw another [TS]

  analogy Chevy doesn't get to put an ad in the New York Times ordinary times [TS]

  doesn't see first CNN doesn't let the advertisers control whatever goes on [TS]

  over the air during the thirty seconds they give them a video and the video you [TS]

  know they have the video in their hands before I run CNN delivers the video [TS]

  whereas the web from there very early on the involved in this way where there was [TS]

  a lack of respect that they would happen for example near times it's never gonna [TS]

  sell an ad that sticks to the two pages surrounding the op-ed page so that if [TS]

  you want to read the op-ed page you've got a late break an envelope sealed find [TS]

  like a shark thing and do that whereas they they have things on their website [TS]

  that are the equivalent of that were you have to spend a few seconds doing [TS]

  something or waiting for something before you get to read what you're going [TS]

  to read whereas they would never sell out like that on the print product and [TS]

  the fact that they started from a position of disrespect and they were the [TS]

  big-name sites not just them down to say near times and CNN and all of the sites [TS]

  that had existing successful print publications are existing successful TV [TS]

  news operations they set the standard for the online ad industry and the [TS]

  industry involved in a way where that the inmates running the asylum that [TS]

  advertisers got whatever they wanted because the publications didn't have [TS]

  respect for their sites and in that respect for their users yeah so you [TS]

  don't think I'm off the mark mark no I mean I think the challenge has always [TS]

  been that it's been it's it's been hard it's always been hard to make money [TS]

  online [TS]

  that seems crazy to say but I can tell you from a publication standpoint it's [TS]

  always been already it was not at the point that it was clear that the web was [TS]

  the was the most important product [TS]

  and that like a magazine like I worked for was not it was probably another five [TS]

  maybe seven years before the web revenue got anywhere close to the print revenue [TS]

  and that's because it was even like five years ago there was a guy I saw story [TS]

  the other day that was pointing out this that Mary Meeker slide deck gets dropped [TS]

  at the D conference every year but the same conference and five years ago she [TS]

  had one of those things that we had seen to you know internally tidy and [TS]

  everybody in the industry that we're even though web was being used to a [TS]

  great degree the advertising wasn't on the web it was all on TV print and [TS]

  that's a red flag that's like well this is gonna change it is going to change [TS]

  but for a long time it didn't change and so you got this you know we're giving [TS]

  away on our content for free and we're desperately trying to make money because [TS]

  we know that the future is going to be in this medium and but nobody's buying [TS]

  so we're gonna like redouble our efforts to make do anything we can and I think [TS]

  it was dangerous because there was some desperation at a time when you know it [TS]

  was about to be a sea change and the the the clients were going to be coming with [TS]

  all their big checkbooks to the web is very soon cuz that's where the eyeballs [TS]

  were going that was where everybody went to go and you know it was probably not [TS]

  realistic to say well we're just gonna hold out but the fact that everybody was [TS]

  just like Nintendo Wii desperate please give us money now please let's make this [TS]

  salad also I think there's maybe a little bit of a first one's free you [TS]

  kind of mentality like how how can I do to get you to try to advertise on the [TS]

  web because we really need you to do that because this is where it's all good [TS]

  to go [TS]

  as a result though I mean we yeah we've got the situation where what people pay [TS]

  is not a lot it's completely I mean imagine not only the new york times [TS]

  saying where you can print it out we haven't seen and we'll wrap it in a will [TS]

  cover the editorial section in the code that you have to enter before you can [TS]

  get you can peel off the piece of paper and read the rest of the newspaper but [TS]

  let's take the the analogy further you know what if the new york times doesn't [TS]

  have any control over any of it and isn't even using their own sales people [TS]

  like there's a robot somewhere there is a stock exchange an ad exchange [TS]

  somewhere that's just automatically serving like the at the sales people are [TS]

  even gone at that point that's sort of where the web is now and you know it's [TS]

  just it's a very different medium and and that's fine but what Ben Thompson [TS]

  would tell you is unless you have scale unless you're BuzzFeed maybe unless you [TS]

  just huge scale where you have so many pages that you can section up in a bunch [TS]

  of different ways or unless you are very small but had an amazing audience like [TS]

  tearing fireball if you're in the middle [TS]

  it's tough it's tough to do it because you don't have the scale solar [TS]

  advertisers don't want to talk to you and using these ad networks and you know [TS]

  that's where I'm or is that we're macworld was and is and you end up doing [TS]

  that thing where you put more and more junk on your pages because every piece [TS]

  of junk you put on your pages is more money and you're desperately trying to [TS]

  make enough money to pay for people who are building your website and her [TS]

  writing your articles and it's tough I i I'm not convinced there's only one of [TS]

  the reasons why I was so committed to leaving IDG for the last couple of years [TS]

  and knew I need to get out I'm not convinced that [TS]

  this this business model is gonna work for eighty percent of the websites I'm [TS]

  just not convinced that it's gonna work these give a given away for free in [TS]

  exchange for a loading up on advertising well I really do think that it might be [TS]

  the reckoning my come sooner than later because I from multiple factors multiple [TS]

  directions it's not you know one thing is going to do it but without question [TS]

  this that's what makes it so interesting to me timing wise cause to me it ties in [TS]

  with tangentially perhaps but it turns it ties into that argument that hey [TS]

  Apple has the argument from the Apple this is a new IE part of their argument [TS]

  is that like I they perceive Apple is having abandoned it that they've sort of [TS]

  lost interest in it and that the reason that too far isn't adding all these [TS]

  features they want them to add is that Apple either can't do it or is [TS]

  understaffed ur disinterested what would escape their mind to go back to my point [TS]

  earlier about their their not being able to see it from that perspective other [TS]

  than theirs is that Apple is doing exactly what it wants with Safari and [TS]

  they are putting a lot of effort into it but it's not really about these features [TS]

  that these developers want it's about features for the user and and Rene [TS]

  Ritchie and I'm more had a great article about it when he cut services Apple is [TS]

  steering it toward this user centric web and again it's Apple favoring users [TS]

  overdevelopment but that's what a lot of the stuff and there was a lot of stuff [TS]

  about Safari at WWDC this year some of my fellow mean it's partly because it's [TS]

  it's more of this type of stuff I deal with her stand but [TS]

  there's an awful lot of stuff that WABC sessions that felt directly related to [TS]

  me and my work and what I'm interested in you know the content blockers is one [TS]

  and you know the new news app is another and both to meet driven by the same [TS]

  thing which is that we want to do things that make stuff you want to read load [TS]

  quicker and keep maintain more of your privacy we wanted this should be faster [TS]

  it should be a better experience and you should have the feeling that it's more [TS]

  private [TS]

  the other flip side of the whole inmates running the assignment asylum argument [TS]

  with online advertising is this is the magic of code rate in general just the [TS]

  idea of running software code in this whole you know software is leading the [TS]

  world it's the first time that advertising could do any of this stuff [TS]

  right i mean that the idea of tracking someone who watches TV in the old days [TS]

  over the air is impossible right and the metrics and of course advertisers want [TS]

  metrics and of course they want the metrics to be accurate but that you know [TS]

  the Nielsen ratings especially in the old days were were famously inaccurate [TS]

  in terms of weather that nielsen families were actually a honest about [TS]

  what they watched him be demographically representative of the of the country as [TS]

  a whole [TS]

  you know I think newspaper magazine circulation was it was probably and [TS]

  probably still is more accurate because it better regulated through the what's [TS]

  called you know sure you know there's a standard group that maybe yeah like the [TS]

  IAB [TS]

  at least and if it's not accurately said consistent you know more consistent you [TS]

  know but for the most part you know if you placed a full-page ad in The New [TS]

  York Times you know whether it you know they actually was read by you know they [TS]

  tell you they print you know 1.1 million [TS]

  copies or whatever it is on a weekday and how many people read it while who [TS]

  knows because some of those copies are in a doctor's office and people come in [TS]

  you know ten patients come in and read the front page of the same copy of the [TS]

  new york times but you basically know roughly loosely how much exposure [TS]

  getting from the new york times and if you advertise in Sports Illustrated [TS]

  instead of advertising in vogue [TS]

  you know the basic difference between the demographics of those two big [TS]

  magazines you know and when you advertise in Macworld you know the print [TS]

  magazine you have a pretty good idea of the demographics [TS]

  a loose degree but it's nothing at all like what you get from the trackers that [TS]

  the ad networks to online in terms of knowing that here's a person who not [TS]

  only reads macworld but they also read three of these photo sites so we can [TS]

  service targeted ad which in some sense you know there is a you know there's a [TS]

  plus side to it well maybe it can serve you and add that truly is interesting to [TS]

  you because it's about some amazing new Mac software meant for photographers [TS]

  when it works like that that's fantastic but in terms of you know are you come [TS]

  from would you be comfortable buying a print magazine that somehow knew which [TS]

  other print magazines you ran [TS]

  read it doesn't make any said I would be accomplished that's the magic of code [TS]

  like letting code run in general and advertising changed the game now the [TS]

  question is i mean trying to think of a way forward [TS]

  I asked myself sometimes what would I rather see what I rather see web I think [TS]

  it's unlikely that we will see a web where almost everything is behind a [TS]

  paywall I think that seems unlikely although I think more stuff will be [TS]

  harder to get to and that there will be experiences that you'll be able to have [TS]

  on the web or in apps as a paid whoever that are better I do think that will [TS]

  probably happen but I what I really ask myself is what I rather have the web [TS]

  littered with more and more junk or would I rather have a web that had less [TS]

  junk on it but it knew who I was [TS]

  and maybe this makes me a bad person but I I think I honestly would rather have a [TS]

  good experience and share some of my personal information then had a terrible [TS]

  experience because they don't know who I am unfortunately the world we live in is [TS]

  they want to know everything about who you are and they want to fill your [TS]

  screen with junk and they also want to put up a while after 10 articles and so [TS]

  that you can pay to see all the junk and attracts so it's like everything is [TS]

  there and I don't know what the solution is other than muddling along with being [TS]

  kind of generally awful other than if if if companies start going out of business [TS]

  and and i think that that maybe I just saw Michael sippy who has been on the [TS]

  internet for million years and used to be the head of product to Twitter refer [TS]

  to it as the great reaping right it's like what happens then if if that [TS]

  happens we're like a lot of these mid-range sites just go out of business [TS]

  something interesting might happen after that that that is people and probably [TS]

  people like you and me either on their own or in small groups banding together [TS]

  to try and find some new way of doing things that's not like that but it might [TS]

  take that like a dissolution of these staffs like what happened macworld [TS]

  imagine that happening just again and again and again where you end up with a [TS]

  whole lot of people who are just forced to do to do something different [TS]

  the apocalyptic version of that is that they're just gone they go take jobs at [TS]

  places that aren't in the media and you never hear from them again and the world [TS]

  is a poor place for it and then all we're left with is some you some people [TS]

  kind of on the far left end of the curve like tearing fireball and the people at [TS]

  the far right in like BuzzFeed and then there's nothing left in the middle but I [TS]

  fear that that is a strong possibility that the the reckoning is that [TS]

  overlooking the fact that the users have the ability to fight back and the music [TS]

  industry faced this with the Napster you're right where they wanted a magic [TS]

  solution that would keep users from doing downloads [TS]

  you still see it with film and TV you know with you know they're reluctant to [TS]

  be more generous not generous not in terms of ongoing crisis but the way that [TS]

  stuff is all still regional I mean we're so lucky living in the USA [TS]

  you note rose you know some of my friends canada not when you know TV [TS]

  shows don't show up right away let alone other countries around the world where [TS]

  they show up after they do in Canada crazy there's no reason for that and you [TS]

  wonder why people in candidate might resort to illegal downloads to get the [TS]

  TV shows that they can't get the same day that people get in the USA because [TS]

  you're being about it and don't underestimate the fact that users can [TS]

  fight back and if you think who cares if our web pages take eight seconds and [TS]

  then you view people who install ad blockers as criminals or something like [TS]

  that and expect some kind of magical solution to route around dead but it's [TS]

  you know it not gonna work it's not gonna be magical and and now that it's [TS]

  starting to get built into a high level and and i truly flagship operating [TS]

  system I know that you can install ad blockers on the Mac for a while but in [TS]

  terms of effecting a great swath of high-profile and hot you know good [TS]

  demographic users having these content blockers and iOS is I think you ought to [TS]

  be a game-changer I really do and i say this again as somebody who makes my [TS]

  entire living practically from advertising I am incredibly sensitive to [TS]

  the fact that you know I can't really recommend at blocking I don't want an ad [TS]

  blocker do I do I do run go story and I have ghost reset and Safari to block [TS]

  trackers so I dubach tractors according to go story but I don't block at so I do [TS]

  obviously see different ads and I would if I didn't have ghost reinstalled [TS]

  and I do plan though to run support content partners and I don't plan to run [TS]

  them to block ads but I absolutely plan to run them to block JavaScript tractors [TS]

  and I i I think there should be allowed a lot of people who are not as you know [TS]

  I think rightfully so I don't have judgment on them but who aren't gonna [TS]

  have draw that distinction between blocking and unblocking tractors and [TS]

  they're just going to block all of it and when the performance increase is [TS]

  dramatic when you when all the sudden you try this content Walker and all of a [TS]

  sudden these things start loading remarkably faster on your old iPhone [TS]

  just because you installed iOS not it there's no you know later and it's you [TS]

  know i just i I really do think that that's going to come so what it's what's [TS]

  coming to reap the great repay repair yeah where some sites in the middle that [TS]

  middle between the super scale sites like Facebook and BuzzFeed and son at [TS]

  the bottom of the trees bent on the smiling curve where it's like there's [TS]

  like a good up tick on the left and the right and it's not very good in the [TS]

  middle [TS]

  yeah the way i mean again a lot of times when I talk about this right about this [TS]

  i'd also get so please don't address it I i my criticism of Mora was not i dont [TS]

  did this is true I do not have a here's what I should do to solve the problem I [TS]

  wish I did if I did I would be the first one to share I don't but I wrote that [TS]

  article not saying [TS]

  hey here's what they should do or and it certainly wasn't meant to they should do [TS]

  what I do it wouldn't work right I have an operation that is a very nice living [TS]

  for a staff of one you know and i could be maybe I can hire one person or hire [TS]

  somebody full-time or part-time or something like that again right but you [TS]

  know the the daring fireballs talk-show model is not something that would run [TS]

  staffed organization it now not so I'm not saying that I'm just saying I would [TS]

  like to see them try and maybe somebody could find a way to you know find [TS]

  something new that could run something of that size you know but I feel that if [TS]

  there is a limit that people have stopped trying to do things catch 22 [TS]

  advantage of giving away our content for free is that you get more viewers but [TS]

  then you have to monetize them all because which the word I had but because [TS]

  it conjures up sort of this imagery of turning people into stacks of coins or [TS]

  something but that's basically what it is right and so you've got how do you do [TS]

  that and the answer is you put ads everywhere and you try to track them and [TS]

  the fact is people are reluctant to give you money a lot of people [TS]

  other choices to is to say look I don't care I'm going to charge people for for [TS]

  my stuff and it'll be a much smaller group but if they pay me enough it'll be [TS]

  worth it the challenge is getting the masterwork or a hybrid of that right [TS]

  where you get some stuff away like Ben Thompson get some stuff away to get [TS]

  visibility and then within the article that I link to this week's exactly right [TS]

  but he also wrote several other pieces a week that only go to the people who pay [TS]

  $100 a year which i think is actually a kind of a great deal and it allows him [TS]

  to make a living just doing that which means you get as a subscriber you get [TS]

  his entire output in 2013 P so weak I just feel like I feel like that is part [TS]

  of the genius of his model I feel like $100 is magic yeah I wasn't sure what to [TS]

  think about when he started but I feel like it's magic and there's an awful lot [TS]

  of people that out endeavour's pay $100 a year for anything [TS]

  online but somehow it but then I think a lot of those people wouldn't pay $10 [TS]

  here and he's a really smart guy in this is Mike my fear is that if everybody in [TS]

  the middle [TS]

  their companies blow up and they say well I'm gonna do it then Thompson does [TS]

  fact is I mean not everybody how many hundred dollars a year subscriptions for [TS]

  websites or newsletters are able to be willing to pay you have to be one of [TS]

  their favorites [TS]

  you know that stuff that's the old you know what is a thousand true fans thing [TS]

  which is you don't actually need you don't actually need a hundred thousand [TS]

  people [TS]

  Union 2,000 people are two thousand people who will you like your stuff [TS]

  enough to buy your t-shirt and maybe your membership or donate or whatever [TS]

  and and that that's I feel like I mean I thought about that a lot since going out [TS]

  on my own is how do I want a balanced advertising with direct I had lots of [TS]

  people say I don't you know i dont i dont I like your advertiser I don't like [TS]

  your advertisers or whatever i just want to support you and I don't have anything [TS]

  to advertise myself how do I do that I haven't given anybody away to do that [TS]

  yet and and I remember during the really bad times [TS]

  IDG that you know usually get your riding high in the sales guys are in [TS]

  charge and they're like yeah we're selling ads we don't really care about [TS]

  any anything else and in the dark times they suddenly say hey you know what's [TS]

  really great as we've got people paying us $35 a year to get a magazine that's a [TS]

  really good cause we be out of business with a hat and I I'm reminded of that [TS]

  right now my living is almost a hundred percent directly or indirectly funded by [TS]

  advertising and you know do I want to have you know what people can provide [TS]

  them something that they would want to support and also get something from it [TS]

  but that's the danger is that if you follow that through it might work for me [TS]

  it certainly works for Ben Thompson right now but in the end if most of the [TS]

  people get cleared out of the market I'm not sure if that'll work and then again [TS]

  back in 20 years ago there were people who subscribe to 15 magazines a month [TS]

  right and those were all probably $50 or $40 $20 a year maybe not a hundred [TS]

  dollars a year but my dad used to get the Kiplinger letter and that was like [TS]

  $100 a year or more and that there was like a little newsletter like type [TS]

  typewritten even when they'd started to computers it looked they made it look [TS]

  like it was typewritten and it was like a investing and business newsletter and [TS]

  that's sort of what then is doing and it makes sense but I don't know that the [TS]

  math you may end up so it may turn out that the web is created a glut of [TS]

  information and people that in the end just can't be supported [TS]

  unfortunately I i fear sometimes that what we do is gonna be like being a [TS]

  steelworker yeah I wonder I don't know I think I wrote about with the I'm more [TS]

  thing was that to me was a good example of a slippery slope by which I mean that [TS]

  once with me a daring fireball and again I'm not saying applies to other sites [TS]

  are larger size but it worked for me was that I never once put anything on doing [TS]

  fireball that wasn't comfortable with the time that I tried running Google [TS]

  Adsense like one Google Adsense first came out and talked about this before [TS]

  but long story short the Adirondack good and they weren't paying much and I got [TS]

  some control over the color of them but it wasn't enough and they were just tax [TS]

  you know but it was and it was a time when during formal is making $0 and it [TS]

  was really wanted it to make something greater than zero dollars so I could [TS]

  spend more time on it and ideally you know again for years it was just a dream [TS]

  that I could maybe just do it full time I really wanted it to work but I was so [TS]

  uncomfortable with the fact that some of those Google Adsense ads had no control [TS]

  over them [TS]

  some of them were relevant most of them weren't I took him down after like a [TS]

  month or two but that I never and never put anything and you know god bless [TS]

  Google one thing Google is always known is that the web should be fast and the [TS]

  AdSense ad never once seemed to slow down during fireball if they had I would [TS]

  have taken them down [TS]

  day one but I had the ability because there's nobody had the answer to you [TS]

  know I could say I'm never gonna add anything that slows during firewall down [TS]

  and I'm never going to add something that I'm not proud of something to [TS]

  fireball that has a hundred HTTP requests etc etc so I never broke the [TS]

  line and now you know fortunate enough that I found other ways to make money [TS]

  and I have a terrific business right now but in the interim I absolutely left [TS]

  money on the table and there were years in the 2007 2008 2009 era where I had [TS]

  you know and I listen to some of the pictures from ad networks you know they [TS]

  were released and who knows if they will ever but the numbers they were telling [TS]

  me that they can give me per month were way more than what I was making i mean [TS]

  you know but you know maybe not by a factor of 10 but by a factor of a very [TS]

  nice and enter it it was way more money than I was making per month during [TS]

  fireball at a time when it really would have been meaningful to me my family but [TS]

  I turned it all down because I absolutely wasn't comfortable with at [TS]

  how many people have you know had a site where you're not just and you know one [TS]

  person who am I gonna call myself an artist but maybe it comes out within our [TS]

  artistic integrity angle but if you're at a site where there's no corporate [TS]

  structure above you in and you're you know supposed to justify stuff with you [TS]

  know profit loss and stuff like that how many people are gonna go how many [TS]

  publications could go years turning down stuff and building something different [TS]

  instead [TS]

  oh i I can't tell you how many times I've in the slippery slope is true I can [TS]

  tell you many times you you wrote you know a bunch of things about like tent [TS]

  that thing that yeah I still does where it adds you know you copy the name [TS]

  Jason's now to get the spelling of your name right now it's hard to spell it it [TS]

  adds all this crap on your clit and there were those ads that or they called [TS]

  that were there were you still see them where they take likes raises in stories [TS]

  and editorials and hyperlinks them to advertising it and usually badly that's [TS]

  where you say it was like this in the early days of Google to you'd say [TS]

  something like you know the drill and all the ads are for power drills wrong [TS]

  right and yes if you're a close reader you could see that those links or styled [TS]

  differently maybe they were underlining green instead of them exactly and it but [TS]

  you have to be a close reader you mean it's like everytime I see them I think [TS]

  there is no way my mom would know the difference between this link and the [TS]

  link that the writer of the article put in which they really wanted the reader [TS]

  to know hey if you want to know more about this so click this link we would [TS]

  we would have died I can't tell you how many times in this one of the things [TS]

  that were on me and my job as I can tell you how many times I had a meeting with [TS]

  a new salesperson or a new executive who would say you know hey have you heard [TS]

  about these new things that do this and it would be the same old thing will be [TS]

  stuff like that these contextual ads and hyperlinks and you know it would end up [TS]

  being yet another argument where I would have to say that senatorial content and [TS]

  we choose what we link to and by overriding links with other links to [TS]

  other places you're breaking you know you're laying edit or advertising on top [TS]

  of editorial and it's it's inappropriate and into bed user experience etcetera [TS]

  etcetera I generally one those arguments at Macworld which I kinda can't believe [TS]

  I even did but I i generally one those I think we never implemented those but you [TS]

  know the argument was always the same which is well it's incremental revenue [TS]

  and the best I could do is say look all the editors will tell you this is wrong [TS]

  it will be terrible for the users and all the promising new was an extra [TS]

  $40,000 is it worth it to you but a lot of organizations and IDG said YES on all [TS]

  sorts of other things they just didn't [TS]

  on that one particular one for whatever reason they'll just say yes because [TS]

  they're like they're desperately trying to keep ahead of the float and so it's [TS]

  like well this is another $20,000 and this is another $40,000 at one point [TS]

  when I was put in charge of Macworld website the home page was almost [TS]

  entirely known as Royal Bank literally like I think more than half the home [TS]

  page was not a tutorial and it's because every time somebody came to them that [TS]

  whoever was in charge of that time the president of the company I think [TS]

  basically and said we've got a deal with you what if you link to this thing will [TS]

  give you a cut they just said yes and you know it's hard to say no it is hard [TS]

  to say no and it's hard to keep a vision and if you're somebody who is dealing [TS]

  with the bottom line you know you're not running a charity you do want to make a [TS]

  living and you want to bring in more money so that you or your company can [TS]

  stand business at the same time somebody who is thinking of the big picture [TS]

  realizes that you are breaking your product by adding this to it and that [TS]

  eventually what you're left with is nothing and you're not going to get [TS]

  revenue for it because your product is so terrible that nobody wants to see it [TS]

  anymore and write one little incremental thing at a time [TS]

  all of a sudden you see yourself in opposition to your readers [TS]

  yeah and and linebacker I can't tell you how I mean one of the reasons morale was [TS]

  so low was that our readers first of the people who made these decisions never [TS]

  heard from the readers we had to hear from the readers we had to be the ones [TS]

  who bore the brunt of it and tried to explain why this was going on the people [TS]

  who actually made these decisions never had to hear from in fact the reason I [TS]

  got the autoplay video turned off for that brief time that I got turned off is [TS]

  that I passed my boss a sixty-page Google Doc of complaints from readers [TS]

  about a play video [TS]

  we just compiled it I just had the editor there since put any time you get [TS]

  an email from somebody or a tweet or whatever put it in here and I handed it [TS]

  to him I said these are complaints from readers about a play and then and [TS]

  finally one program and he was like what do you want me to do and I said I want [TS]

  you to shut it off like I write and then let us commence later he was replaced [TS]

  with a guy who mediately turn it back on but that that you know if you're if [TS]

  you're one of those editors that was you could tell that this was bad but the [TS]

  people who are making these decisions never had to hear from people they never [TS]

  really were thinking about that oftentimes you'd have like an editorial [TS]

  group [TS]

  and you have like the website building group and then you have like a money [TS]

  group sales and deals group and what would end up happening is there's no the [TS]

  what should happen is that group in the Middle the the website product group [TS]

  should actually be concerned about the product they should they should be the [TS]

  one that everybody else has to convince that this is a good idea but in some [TS]

  editorial organizations on the web and especially the ones that came from print [TS]

  but not just them that group ended up being seen as like a technical services [TS]

  group rather than like the keepers of the product and as a result the other [TS]

  two groups were just the Edit and sales would just run roughshod over them and [TS]

  that is where the slippery slope comes from a lot of the time is that the [TS]

  even there's nobody in terms of the product or the people in charge of the [TS]

  product can't say no and they get they can't even say stop and think and so you [TS]

  know a sales guy makes a deal that he that he's going to a commission on that [TS]

  is going to junk up the site he doesn't care he's gonna make money and somebody [TS]

  else's problem about a junking of the site and he'll never hear from a reader [TS]

  that it was jumping up the site he just doesn't care and that's why the slippery [TS]

  slope now that's a great great story well an interesting story the last [TS]

  factor in all of this is this and and we've been going on long time but I've [TS]

  been off for a while but it but it to wrap this up is the mobile vs desktop [TS]

  web disparity in merrymakers lied to that but her slide on the amount of time [TS]

  people spend on various medias TV print stuff like that versus the amount [TS]

  percentage the percentage of their time they spend on them versus the percentage [TS]

  of advertising that is devoted to them [TS]

  it is shown ever since she's been doing it that new stuff is under represented [TS]

  by ads early and then eventually catch it inevitably catches up it's almost [TS]

  like Moneyball were eventually the advertisers realize that we can weaken [TS]

  under pay for what it's worth [TS]

  on this new thing and get more bang for our buck than the existing ones and the [TS]

  graph shows that the amount of time people spend on TV [TS]

  corresponds closely to the amount of money spent on TV advertising amount of [TS]

  time people spend with print respond pretty closely to how much time they [TS]

  spend on it and in the early days of the web like you said five years ago earlier [TS]

  like five years ago that wasn't true in it has her slide this year it's caught [TS]

  up og many stevie is totally screwed by the way that's the other part of that is [TS]

  like everybody's realize the TV is not worth it and so TV advertising is going [TS]

  to go in the hole as a partner except for except for the again i think is [TS]

  probably one of the upside down smiles we're like the big names sports law [TS]

  still gonna lie then right and yeah NFL is gonna be fine [TS]

  Oscars are gonna be fine you know episodes of 30 minutes it comes to be in [TS]

  big trouble but the big thing she showed though is that there's a big disparity [TS]

  with mobile and desktop and mobile is consuming I think about as much time as [TS]

  the desktop but its way under represented it she instead I think her [TS]

  number was some thirty-five or forty billion dollars a hole between how much [TS]

  money should be being spent [TS]

  if you say that all time should be represented by advertising [TS]

  and like you said even 25 years ago the desktop web was there a video to those [TS]

  into that where people are watching video and and the percentage of video [TS]

  advertising is nothing compared to the bar is not where the advertising is in [TS]

  mobile and video yeah absolutely not and that's really going to come with kids [TS]

  because I mean it's it we both we both have genital 10 is 11 just turn 11 you a [TS]

  little bit old and Julian [TS]

  so we have ten eleven year old kids and my daughters 13 and you know they they [TS]

  don't watch TV they watch they watch online did you watch YouTube mostly and [TS]

  it's mostly Minecraft videos on Mon entirely but you know YouTube and [TS]

  Netflix and he's he's it it's fascinating to watch him he's he loves [TS]

  him he finds a new show he likes and I don't know how we find him he will keep [TS]

  its word about my son's done at my daughter and her friends will do that to [TS]

  where there's just find something in the bench watching they just go nuts with it [TS]

  so you know the next generation is bringing this on to and so that the [TS]

  money is going to try to find a way to reach them [TS]

  yeah definitely it it'll catch up eventually there's no doubt about it [TS]

  somebody's going to be smart [TS]

  the problem is that mobile right now you know it's it's hard to advertise on [TS]

  mobile read the screens are small mobile advertising we've seen has been lousy [TS]

  that's exactly where I want to go with this though and why the content blockers [TS]

  coming to iOS Pacific is that if his obnoxious as advertising is on desktop [TS]

  web and how it you know and let's face it the the line between desktop and [TS]

  mobile [TS]

  is sort of arbitrary because most people are using laptops as their quote desktop [TS]

  now and we have a lot of the same issues where you were maybe your internet [TS]

  connection is not a great wifi connection right maybe you're in a hotel [TS]

  and you've got a wifi connection that's lower than your phone or maybe somebody [TS]

  who's just been on vacation [TS]

  exactly where maybe maybe you're on the train between New York and Philly and [TS]

  you're tethered to cellular device and you go through sections of New Jersey [TS]

  where cellular coverage is crap I mean code in the city is you know you go [TS]

  places there's no buildings block the Verizon cell tower 42 blocks we've got [TS]

  crap connection everybody knows this is true well those are the cases we're [TS]

  waiting for stuff and having had that you know run a script for a minute [TS]

  whether it's feels slower not if it is run for a minute but it's stressing the [TS]

  antenna on your phone this is how your battery can go down so quickly depending [TS]

  on your cell coverage that just doesn't fly hopeful and the idea of having adds [TS]

  that block the content when you've got you know you've already got so little [TS]

  space on the device already and have a permanent peace of chrome covering part [TS]

  of it and that isn't even site navigation it's an ad drives you crazy [TS]

  and of course people go block it that way at all of it is way worse everything [TS]

  that's bad about desktop advertising is way worse on mobile advertising and and [TS]

  everything that you can do that [TS]

  good way of doing advertising on desktop works even better on mobile like that's [TS]

  why I think that mobile in the long run should be even more valuable because I [TS]

  sort of you know during fireball six colors [TS]

  loop insight hey thanks to my sponsor type thing takes up more of the screen [TS]

  at a time and I think you have a user on mobile who's more focused on what [TS]

  they're doing [TS]

  should be at least as valuable if not more so if any longer anything makes me [TS]

  optimistic we talk about the grouping [TS]

  if it makes me optimistic it's that the fact is that that Mary Meeker chart that [TS]

  that number of eyes on mobile web or on a video but we don't love i dont have [TS]

  advertising a lot of people really hate it a lot of people are just allergic to [TS]

  it but when I talk about the money earlier I mean the money once to reach [TS]

  them like coca-cola and you know the big advertisers of the world that the movie [TS]

  studios who want to get people out on Thursday nights and Friday nights they [TS]

  want to reach people they named their money to spend their the way that the [TS]

  economy works that bar that bar graphs of like huge bar chart for the the bar [TS]

  of people who are using it and teeny tiny 14 how much money is being spent [TS]

  it's like us moses it's going to grow that money is going to follow the people [TS]

  so if I'm optimistic when i think is somebody's gonna figure this out somehow [TS]

  because there's money who once there's money ready to be spent as long as there [TS]

  are people who is somebody can figure out how to get people to receive it and [TS]

  I don't know what that is maybe it is native I used to fight so hard against [TS]

  native advertising on that world where they would try to like fake I mean they [TS]

  would try to fake stories they try to make things look like they were they [TS]

  were stories but they weren't but you know what during fireball those in 16 [TS]

  colors does i mean that's native advertising might do a post a week from [TS]

  sponsor and it says this is a sponsor but I give them space they give me money [TS]

  and I give them space you they give you money you give them space and I thank [TS]

  them and that's it's nice maybe that's the way forward maybe I mean I don't [TS]

  think coca-cola wants to set up or Verizon Verizon tried this like set up [TS]

  their own website set up their own app with content and then like have their [TS]

  their ads being insidiously placed in it I think that's less likely to work and [TS]

  that's the that's the great thing that [TS]

  independent media company can do is say we're gonna make good content until the [TS]

  onions and have a place for you to give us your money so that you can get your [TS]

  stuff in front of them to that's why the media has worked mass media has worked [TS]

  so successfully for so long and everything may need to be broken before [TS]

  we get there but the recipe hasn't changed they're still marketers who have [TS]

  a lot of money you really want to market their product the people who are [TS]

  spending time using media and there are huge numbers of people including our [TS]

  kids using media and there's gonna be somebody in the middle who put those two [TS]

  things together and eventually the water will reach its own level yeah yeah [TS]

  eventually those numbers will align day they have to in the fat days of of print [TS]

  magazines and there's still some magazines that are doing well but in the [TS]

  days when they were at their peak there is still a maximum number of ads you get [TS]

  squeezed into an issue right right there wasn't an infinite number you know [TS]

  there's only so many had you can put in issue of the newspaper and there's only [TS]

  so much [TS]

  editorial you can force a side you know on each page TV is a great example where [TS]

  in theory they could sell as many minutes as they want as that but when it [TS]

  specially you know she talked about the pre PVR era where you couldn't skip ads [TS]

  and you had to be watching live it [TS]

  equalized pretty quickly it somewhere was 22 or 23 minutes an hour of content [TS]

  and six or seven minutes of the original Star Trek most of the episodes on about [TS]

  51 minutes and a modern TV dramas about 42 minutes ago time but you can see that [TS]

  gives you a timeline of where in the last 45 years they've they've added [TS]

  another 10 minutes per hour of commercial so somewhere between the [TS]

  mid-sixties in 1980 81 they went from so what would that have been fifty 50 51 [TS]

  minutes 42 [TS]

  and you know I don't think he could push it any further lets you know that the [TS]

  limited by time I mean technically you could have 60 minutes of advertising in [TS]

  an hour and nobody would watch it but but instead what they do is they say ok [TS]

  we're gonna have straightforward commercials for 20 minutes we're gonna [TS]

  content 40 mins but in the cunt like American Idol rate but in the content or [TS]

  baseball game right sponsor segments like I don't know about the Yankees but [TS]

  the giants like dole dole have a good defensive play in all say well that's [TS]

  your Ford right choice right and everything is got and has nothing to do [TS]

  with it really but it's like there are like 10 pieces of flair that they have [TS]

  to get out [TS]

  give out during a game and then the the broadcast booth sponsored and that's how [TS]

  you increase the load beyond that I guess we call that native advertising [TS]

  what we're doing which is until I think it's not bad [TS]

  the classic era in the classic old computer magazines and stuff [TS]

  the ads were good people like they did in her eyes at the ads they were good [TS]

  they were information and it's funny in podcast I feel like but when when you do [TS]

  a good podcast add it's the same things like its key can be entertaining can be [TS]

  informational and the web kinda got it wrong and I think that's one of the [TS]

  reasons we're in this kind of hole and then maybe there needs to be a crack up [TS]

  before we find whatever that new solution is where people actually like [TS]

  don't mind and maybe get them started with user hostile ads and went down from [TS]

  there [TS]

  yeah yeah it was the original sin of the web was punched the monkey it was so bad [TS]

  when if you were a web developer enough to know that it was just in Jason's cell [TS]

  thank you so much for your time and your insight I think this is absolutely great [TS]

  people we've already mentioned it several times but your new site is six [TS]

  colors . I'm pay the money man I die I want to the domain you could spell ended [TS]

  in dot com I forgot I I knew there was a I know but I know that you can spell [TS]

  colors with a bellicose with you and I even went to serbia [TS]

  6 colo dot IRS whichever way they're comfortable spelling colors it will work [TS]

  your podcasts which is a big part of it a big part of your independence I'm [TS]

  guessing oh yeah let's just listen there's a comfortable and comfortable [TS]

  being comfortable dot com and thats great show [TS]

  weekly still you call it a weekly pop culture show I mean it's really more [TS]

  like a network and there's the main show and then there's a whole bunch of other [TS]

  shows on the network [TS]

  yeah i know im just chillin and I'm reading from you but then there's [TS]

  upgrade which is essentially the official six colors podcast inspired by [TS]

  you yet that I didn't have a six colors piks upgrade is basically my weekly tech [TS]

  thing let's talk show is free but you got my curly as as your co-host just [TS]

  like an English guy in there and then switches are which is our me and AM more [TS]

  into guess every week and a half an hour like us which is a way to provide an [TS]

  alternative as I hear from people who are too long it's like well although it [TS]

  sometimes we get complaints people think it's too short to make it longer talking [TS]

  to their if you'd like a longer podcast every other just take a look at the [TS]

  leaderboard in an overcast yeah TV talk machine with your pal Tim Goodman from [TS]

  Hollywood Reporter that's that's why I know him and he's really great on [TS]

  podcasts and he was not going to do a podcast unless somebody like posted for [TS]

  him and I was like I could do that [TS]

  postcard Pakistani asleep and robot or not the most important podcast alive [TS]

  today where John Siracusa my debate with things are robots are not for about [TS]

  three minutes perhaps [TS]

  why I don't know if that's because you guys are you guys have you make in front [TS]

  of the computer all the time you guys can pop these things out like you know [TS]

  yeah yeah just just a little little little backstage material for the talk [TS]

  show listeners is Jon Jon like you know we talked for a while but lots of robots [TS]

  and then it becomes lots of episodes we don't talk once a week about 45 min I [TS]

  would be inefficient that's pretty smart [TS]

  all right thank you so much pleasure thank our sponsors for the week we gotta [TS]

  do that memory we had harry's we did get your shaving stuff you got your domain [TS]

  name you got your fracture you can print a picture of your freshly shaven face [TS]

  with Harry's and then you could put on a domain and host with her right and that [TS]

  get up to back place and then you back it up to Beckley so there's our sponsors [TS]

  of my thanks to all of them and hopefully won't be three weeks promise [TS]

  episode [TS]