The Talk Show

146: ‘“They Might Be Giants” With a Spanish Accent’, With Special Guests Eddy Cue and Craig Federighi


  ladies and gentlemen your pal John Gruber here this is a very special [TS]

  episode of the talk show it is a different episode of the talk shows [TS]

  you're about to find out [TS]

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  you right here at this episode is exclusively brought to you by met . com [TS]

  that's mah . com if you don't know what's Matt it's a daily deal site you [TS]

  guys remember woot wot that was a daily deal site where they put funny content [TS]

  videos and stuff like that up and have one thing a day that they would sell at [TS]

  a extraordinary discount and they sold to amazon that was what they sold the [TS]

  amazon and amazon started changing everything around and eventually got rid [TS]

  of everything about what that made woot woot [TS]

  so the team laughs they left amazon when they could and they started a new site [TS]

  that was like would accept even better than it used to be and that's Matt it's [TS]

  the guys behind we have a new site now and you go there every day and have a [TS]

  daily deal something is on sale at an extraordinary discount like a gee I [TS]

  wonder if they like rip these off the back of a truck sort of discount gadgets [TS]

  oftentimes toys stuff like that but the main reason to go there is not even [TS]

  defined the discounts not shopping site at one thing a day that's available at a [TS]

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  and the descriptions that they write that are hilarious sometimes not even [TS]

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  daily routine of places to go when you want to be not bored or entertained for [TS]

  a couple minutes so go there check them out and medicom check out the videos [TS]

  check out the site and you can even keep your eye on the daily deals you might [TS]

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  they're great and they're the ones who are bringing you today's episode and [TS]

  without any further ado ladies and gentlemen the talk show this is gonna be [TS]

  fun we've got a Eddy Cue senior vice-president internet software and [TS]

  services [TS]

  Eddie welcome to the talk show you doing and returning to the talk show which is [TS]

  must mean I didn't watch it up too badly [TS]

  Craig federighi senior vice president of software engineering it's a rare honor [TS]

  to be here John [TS]

  here's my question is the tough one I want to know it out [TS]

  Eddie you're a big sports fan I has Steve Dowling sent you to like [TS]

  photography school for like taking pictures after sporting events now put [TS]

  post-super bowl [TS]

  you know I i love that because you may know him and I went to the Super Bowl [TS]

  together and he's a huge Broncos fan huge Broncos fan and so when they won [TS]

  the game we were we were all excited we got high-fiving each other we went onto [TS]

  the field is taking the photos and he's so excited you want to congratulate him [TS]

  and sent the picture out and then the next morning I wake up and I get to see [TS]

  all of those messages and tweets and everything else and I thought it was [TS]

  great [TS]

  uh because it's it shows you know tim is just like you and me he's a huge sports [TS]

  fan and was loved it and he loved his team actually won the superbowl I i said [TS]

  this I I just thought it was that's exactly what i thought i thought it was [TS]

  like Tim Tim as a human being and it's a real sports fans photo I thought it was [TS]

  goofy but i thought was gonna be the reaction that people had to me it was [TS]

  just a happy moment [TS]

  alright I'm hoping I'm hoping to have a few more for you this year maybe another [TS]

  repeat for the Warriors repeat with national championship you know well [TS]

  that's what I don't know about the duplin I wasn't going to mention do [TS]

  getty no no I was a look I've been we've been wanting to talk to you for like [TS]

  three weeks but I told i told alli there's no way I'm going to talk to John [TS]

  right now because we've been losing games straight so I waited to we won the [TS]

  last we won the last like two games in a row where hot and I'm like let's get on [TS]

  the call now now my smile a sports-related suggestion to you is just [TS]

  in case the Warriors keep it up and just in case you know maybe WWDC sticks to [TS]

  the typical schedule maybe you want to rehearse more and if you have extra [TS]

  tickets for a warrior's finals game [TS]

  I know a guy you know maybe could take them off your hands just saying to our [TS]

  that's up you're on [TS]

  I let's let's get down to brass tacks here one of the things one of the [TS]

  reasons that this is even happening is that Apple is talking about and and [TS]

  telling its users a lot more about what is coming down the pipeline in software [TS]

  so for I mean and the best example of that is is that there's a big it's not [TS]

  even like a developer page it's a big product marketing page on what's coming [TS]

  in iOS 9.3 yeah yeah we we have a real feature release here with with 93 and so [TS]

  we certainly wanted to talk about it and we also wanted to get out in public [TS]

  seeds so many of you were running it certainly all of us here are and there's [TS]

  a lot of really cool stuff we were able to do and we didn't want to wait all the [TS]

  way till wdc to get out is so I I'm not imagining things that this is a at least [TS]

  a subtle change away from keeping features as a sort of major you know new [TS]

  features that you want to promote in in the OS as a monolithic 12 year at WWDC [TS]

  will announce them and once a year a couple months later in the fall will [TS]

  release them sort of schedule [TS]

  yeah you know huge part of what we do with with iOS every year is we're really [TS]

  advancing a platform for developers and you really can't sort of trickle out a [TS]

  big change for developers at the platform level continuously throughout [TS]

  the year so that's something where it makes a ton of sense for us to advance [TS]

  at all at once have a conference get everyone early access to the SDKs that [TS]

  they're going to use given a chance to get their apps ready and take advantage [TS]

  of all the new capabilities and and then get out with a major OS but there are [TS]

  things that we can do they don't have a characteristic you know and if you look [TS]

  at the kind of features coming in 93 with our support for education and [TS]

  you know shared use iPads in the classroom a poor for the night shift [TS]

  feature or you know some of the improvements we made two photos or even [TS]

  the smart keyboard handling on on the ipad pro these are things that you know [TS]

  we want to get out right away to everyone because we think everyone can [TS]

  enjoy them and they aren't the kind of things that really impact moving [TS]

  platform forward for developers right it's not really developing changes but [TS]

  it is there they're definitely major features one of my favorites is for the [TS]

  smart keyboard that when you go to spotlight search you can arrow key down [TS]

  to to the search results [TS]

  yeah I know you you did helpfully note for us shortly after we shipped the ipad [TS]

  pro that that we missed one there so it's been great to miss more than one [TS]

  let me saying so we've been responding all the kind of great feedback we've [TS]

  gotten on the ipad pro which were we're all excited about the device and so [TS]

  excited about people have really embraced it but you know we all have our [TS]

  as we all use it more deeply where we're all seeing things where we can improve a [TS]

  bunch of things including the keyboard support and so we've taken this [TS]

  opportunity in 932 to make some of those enhancements so it that is an [TS]

  interesting thing so one of the things is you guys actually are all my state [TS]

  not just you like Craig and Eddie but everybody on the executive leadership [TS]

  team in addition to having you know these jobs that are very specific in [TS]

  terms of responsibilities you're also users of the the products that Apple [TS]

  makes oh yeah oh yeah no I mean half that that's why we're that's what we're [TS]

  here for sure I mean no one was more enthusiastic to get access to the inside [TS]

  of apple and and software than myself and and Eddie and certainly you know i'm [TS]

  i am installing I think I probably install something like 500 versions i [TS]

  mean literally it's 500,000 versions of OS 10 and iOS myself every year I mean I [TS]

  have you know for max and for ipads and two phones and I upgrade the mall to the [TS]

  newest build pretty much every day so i don't know i think i did the math wrong [TS]

  i think it's like a hundred thousand versions of OS 10 [TS]

  no I also install every year and John I but I've been doing this for more than [TS]

  30 years you know the way i started with this was bringing my mac into the office [TS]

  for my first job and and so working on the mac for me was like a dream come [TS]

  true so i live on our products every day i use all of our products every day [TS]

  they're they're part of my life my kids my family and so it's great and we share [TS]

  that experience and we give each other feedback and we you know we it's what we [TS]

  do but so like you like eddie like you when you get like add a new macbook pro [TS]

  or whatever you're going to use you know but you set it up yourself [TS]

  oh absolutely might my phone first of all hopefully everyone can set it up [TS]

  themselves except that we build it for and it's really easy i set it up by i [TS]

  transfer my content from my old macbook or I just did a new imac as a matter of [TS]

  fact I actually bought it myself I thought I went on the online store [TS]

  I want to see what the experience was i ordered it checked all the mail i wanted [TS]

  to see the mail the notifications that came to my phone and then installed at [TS]

  all let me know no Joe getty seriously most meetings I mean with that eat some [TS]

  point the meeting he breaks out one of his devices and starts upgrading it mid [TS]

  meeting and then then we're able to get on the fly feedback on the new software [TS]

  during the meeting so it's very helpful [TS]

  I I know it sounds like a trivial question but it's something I've always [TS]

  wanted to ask people like you because I can see it both ways where I know you [TS]

  guys are technically adept and have the background to do it but on the other [TS]

  hand as the senior vice president of a semi large corporation you don't have to [TS]

  if you wanted to have somebody set up your stuff for you you could do it so [TS]

  it's always been curious to me whether whether you guys go through it because [TS]

  you want to get that like what's it like to be a real user experience or do you [TS]

  take advantage of it you know the fact that you don't have to if you don't want [TS]

  to [TS]

  oh yeah it's not it's not just that I mean we were were both involved every [TS]

  day in the development of the software that's that's being put together and so [TS]

  we all want to run the latest thing that we were just in a HR review talking [TS]

  about we want to get that feet [TS]

  you're we talked about last week and start living on it so we can start [TS]

  giving the team feedback on what we're seeing and so it's it's an integral part [TS]

  of how we develop here is that we all live on the software and at the same [TS]

  time I mean probably like yourself and you know where all the the tech support [TS]

  teams for our families and our parents and our in-laws and so I have all my [TS]

  kids are running the beta's all the time so we get we get live live feedback and [TS]

  helpful feedback from the whole family non-stop where were immersed in the [TS]

  Apple universe of the feedback let me look John let me give you an example of [TS]

  something like this happens all the time for me i am using our products are this [TS]

  weekend i was using apple TV got the new Apple TV and by the way which we should [TS]

  talk about there's a lot of great new features coming out with this this is a [TS]

  major release of apple TV but i'm doing a a purchase of a movie and I've got a [TS]

  family plan Apple music the whole thing with everybody and the message that [TS]

  comes up on the screen says somebody from your family has already purchased [TS]

  this would you like to buy it again I pretty dumb message and and so it's an [TS]

  example of i got on there and it's like you know I'm talking to my team why are [TS]

  we doing it this way and it's just a history thing of before there was family [TS]

  plan it would ask you that question because it was single user once you have [TS]

  a family plan to just download it shouldn't even bother to ask you and so [TS]

  you know we live both Craig and I and that's that's part of what we love doing [TS]

  and so it's it's great to be able to have an impact and change these things [TS]

  because we're using them ourselves [TS]

  that's a perfect example i was one of the questions I wanted to ask you what [TS]

  was the last bug that you encountered yourself and that's a good one and that [TS]

  it's an interesting explanation right and it just to clarify what you're [TS]

  saying is it saying that the person who's now in your family plan [TS]

  who made that purchase earlier made the purchase before there was a thing called [TS]

  the family plan and therefore it did not automatically download know was that it [TS]

  was only what they did make the purchase [TS]

  they were part of the family plan originally when we were doing this [TS]

  there wasn't a thing is family planning so was designed just to ask you if you [TS]

  want to purchase again when we did this software for [TS]

  family plan we didn't take into account that we just said all somebody already [TS]

  purchased it [TS]

  I kind of just downloading we didn't do that but i want to give you since you [TS]

  said i want to give a little to tell you a little bit of crazy Craig and I are [TS]

  about this stuff and you said what's the latest cause it just reminded me of of [TS]

  this um I was installing a new version of OS 10 on my imac it's a non release [TS]

  version couple days ago and I ran into a problem that i couldn't I knew would be [TS]

  very difficult to recreate and this is about seven thirty at night just gotten [TS]

  home to me up the update and I called crack up and i said here's here's the [TS]

  problem that i've got i was leaving the next day to yuma arizona by the way i [TS]

  want to give a shout out to the kids and teachers out in Yuma Arizona that are [TS]

  using iPads but I called Craig up told him about the problems that look I'm [TS]

  leaving tomorrow i said i want you guys to kind of look at this because i think [TS]

  this is it's kind of weird i don't think it's going to be easy to recreate it [TS]

  sure so I took the imac put in my car drove to crack house gave him the imac [TS]

  came back home one of my trip [TS]

  Krakens engineering the engineers looking at it figure it out and the next [TS]

  day got the imac back so it was sort of like preserving a crime scene [TS]

  that's right except you find out at the end of no crime was committed can we fix [TS]

  it [TS]

  yeah right but if you can you know if you have a bug or just an edge case that [TS]

  you're worried you can't reproduce [TS]

  it's like you really do just want to like freeze the computer right where it [TS]

  is and let the engineers you know start debugging yeah absolutely and it was was [TS]

  helpful that Eddie was was on the case on that one [TS]

  that's a really great story that i love that it is dr tops it off of you [TS]

  it's good to know people but that's it is ok it's interesting but it's that's [TS]

  exactly the sort of question I had is how how involved do you guys get when [TS]

  you run into one of these little you know it's inevitable i mean there's [TS]

  nobody has ever written bug free software it's the nature of software but [TS]

  what do you guys do when you guys encounter it and that's the drive over [TS]

  to Craig's house is the end [TS]

  so before we forget let's just go back and talk about what's coming up in apple [TS]

  TV so the right now it's a it's a beta its TV OS 9.2 and there is a lot of it [TS]

  really is a major feature just off the top of my head [TS]

  serie dictation for text entry and searching for apps that's something [TS]

  people started complaining about as soon as the new Apple TV shipped that's a big [TS]

  one [TS]

  yeah it's huge look when you when you get your appletv the first time the [TS]

  first thing you got to do is enter your eyes your Apple ID and your password and [TS]

  being able to have got serious built into this remote why not just tell it [TS]

  and spell it out instead of having to you know go through the typing mechanism [TS]

  of doing it and so we wanted to do that right from the beginning and then [TS]

  searching on the app store we added searching across movies TV shows and and [TS]

  netflix and hulu we've added a bunch of new content providers like FX you can [TS]

  search disney channel we're adding we continue to add more but obviously the [TS]

  app store is a huge one and and so we've done that we've added some languages [TS]

  spanish french to that and we've added iCloud photo library full support so you [TS]

  can see all of your photos and also as you one of the things that you've [TS]

  noticed if you've downloaded a lot of apps on the App Store from the app store [TS]

  having folders now so just like you have on iOS you can add folders right so you [TS]

  know you could just group together all your little arcade games put them in an [TS]

  arcade folder that's right right [TS]

  what can you tell me i know this is from the list understand is how lazy i am [TS]

  preparing for a very important talk show one of the features conference room [TS]

  display mode but what is that we had this in the original apple TV and part [TS]

  of this is if you know most conference rooms from Wi-Fi connectivity is into [TS]

  the network's you have people you have private networks that are set up for the [TS]

  corporation but then you know somebody comes in to present and you don't really [TS]

  want to let them into your private network from the company and so we have [TS]

  this capability and and we wanted to add that to the apple TV so that it would be [TS]

  easy for people to come in and present [TS]

  but now we can we can also lock the display so that instead of showing you [TS]

  the latest top movies at the beginning of every meeting I can just tell you [TS]

  that you can airplay to it so we we all stay on top of all the top films here at [TS]

  Apple we start every meeting but now we have now we have an alternative that's [TS]

  true so it's not it's really series why'd I mean this affects every platform [TS]

  but the expansion to include new languages [TS]

  obviously that is really super important to let's just say people who speak [TS]

  Spanish it's really like a make-or-break feature how how difficult is that to do [TS]

  each language going you know to keep adding languages to Siri and to keep the [TS]

  the level of quality of of series recognition that we have over 35 [TS]

  languages in Serie apple TV presents and actually an interesting problem compared [TS]

  to just $PERCENT serious self in that a lot of the things that you search for [TS]

  are not in the native language you're speaking [TS]

  so you're actually let's say speaking in Spanish but you're searching for an [TS]

  English title and so Cirie has to be aware that it's actually able to speak [TS]

  multiple languages because you wouldn't in and understand when it is that it's [TS]

  asking for a title versus what it is that you're actually giving a verb or [TS]

  noun to it from that and so it's an interesting challenging problem which is [TS]

  why we've been adding languages to Syria we're not quite a tu apple TV we're not [TS]

  quite up to 35 that Cirie has but we'll keep adding on and it's supporting that [TS]

  multilanguage aspect of Syria that makes it makes it even more fun for us to try [TS]

  to resolve yeah are our machine learning teams at an apple and within the Serie [TS]

  team have done some remarkable work and I know you've noticed some of the [TS]

  improvements to series both performance and its ability to recognize but the [TS]

  core technology has improved so much that it's really helped us get high [TS]

  accuracy when we're take on all of all of these new languages and some of these [TS]

  challenges like now we have to know not just that you're speaking Spanish but [TS]

  while you're speaking Spanish you're talking about they might be giants but [TS]

  you're pronouncing those words with a Spanish accent and Cirie needs to [TS]

  recognize that these are these are [TS]

  kind of things that you know a few years ago were just out of reach and now we [TS]

  have the core technology to do it and I think the experience with series just [TS]

  takin some giant leaps forward by the way and Anna at a huge scale these are [TS]

  billions of requests that come in every week to Siri across all the platforms [TS]

  that's right so in addition to that here's another one that added to a TV OS [TS]

  9.2 is sort of the old school way of text entry bluetooth keyboard support [TS]

  and it's a little thing but it it's one of those things where the old apple TV [TS]

  supported it including at set up so that you could set up like if you had the [TS]

  apple magic keyboard you could you could connect to it and then the new Apple TV [TS]

  came out and it didn't have it and everybody was some people maybe we're a [TS]

  little annoyed that everything they had to do with the new Apple TV and november [TS]

  was up down left right to you know where everything is [TS]

  is this just an issue of paper it was a new version of TV OS all-new it's you [TS]

  know integrating it with iOS we just didn't get to it by November or was this [TS]

  like a rethink like hey a lot of people are asking us for bluetooth keyboard [TS]

  support let's let's go back and put it back in [TS]

  that's a great question in that case it was really simple we were doing the new [TS]

  OS and it's something we wanted to get to [TS]

  we knew it wasn't the majority of customers and so we felt like we could [TS]

  add it later and we always planned it and yes i did get a few emails and [TS]

  tweets about it okay [TS]

  you know it's just hilarious about this those is we we have a very vocal [TS]

  community as you know and when we were getting this feedback area even actually [TS]

  before before making decision not including the first release that the [TS]

  team had done the analysis based on our diagnostics and usage data you know how [TS]

  about how many customers use bluetooth keyboard with their with their apple TV [TS]

  every week and they charted it out over time and it's a it's a it's a small rate [TS]

  relative to the you know many people people are using the built-in remote and [TS]

  so forth but we noticed that that rate of use of the bluetooth keyboard dropped [TS]

  to almost nothing during WWDC [TS]

  and what this dullness was pretty much everyone is using it as a developer [TS]

  who's going to WWDC or an apple employee now that doesn't stop all of them from [TS]

  riding Eddie when it when it was missing but just to give you a sense of kind of [TS]

  what's going on underneath all that that's that is hilarious and because i [TS]

  was gonna I was going to say that i think it's it's a hard sell across your [TS]

  family like whether there's one person in the family is who you know [TS]

  technically adept wants to put a bluetooth keyboard in the living room i [TS]

  think it's a hard sell family-wide to keep keeping keyboard in the living room [TS]

  and we do have a little bit something even a little bit better coming out in a [TS]

  few months which is we have a new remote app so that if you have your iphone you [TS]

  can use the keyboard on the iphone to do that and I think that certainly will get [TS]

  a lot more use and and more than that I mean really the full no sirree to your [TS]

  phone communicating with your TV and it's a it's a great upgrade to that app [TS]

  what you think there's a remote app for the iphone now that you can connect [TS]

  apple TV there is correct set it only does the keyboard the new remote Apple [TS]

  do all of the capabilities that the the existing new Apple TV remote does like [TS]

  Siri and and like gestures for instance because you have obviously it you know [TS]

  the trackpad function of the remote can be done with your phone now to with that [TS]

  remote so it's a really full replacement [TS]

  oh so i have a scoop here yeah eco that's actually heard it here first [TS]

  well you can't brought you can't broadcast this for three months yeah I [TS]

  think that's going to actually make a lot of people very happy though and it [TS]

  might it would that work with some of the games too so that if there's a [TS]

  two-player game that somebody could use their phone and have it be the slider [TS]

  and somebody else can use the remote [TS]

  yes that's exactly you can use the metal the apple TV remote for one person and [TS]

  their phone for the second person that sounds great let's move on and sort of [TS]

  talk about something that it almost feels like a groundhog day and it's [TS]

  almost you know since its februari it actually is close to Groundhog Day is [TS]

  that last year there were a couple of posts that came up early in the year [TS]

  about Apple having [TS]

  little tiny sort of death by a thousand paper cuts software problems across the [TS]

  board and there was a lot of discussion about it and sort of culminated at least [TS]

  for me when Phil Schiller was on the show at the live show WWDC and we talked [TS]

  about it and I thought phil talked about it really openly and then it seemed to [TS]

  fade away from the industry discussion and then last week [TS]

  Walt Mossberg had a column in the headline was apple's a problem you got [TS]

  what do you guys say to this this just the general nothing specific that's not [TS]

  getting any specific app but the general idea that apple's software is has [TS]

  declined in quality [TS]

  let's say over the last five years i would say first that there's nothing we [TS]

  care about more so you know it's not just me and Eddie finally lots of radars [TS]

  and you know using our devices but everyone who works here at Apple we [TS]

  recognize is the single most important thing about what we do and what we come [TS]

  to work to do every day so I take extremely seriously anytime any of our [TS]

  customer says that they are having the experience that they expected from us [TS]

  and and clearly waltz article indicates that he is at the moment in that camp [TS]

  III look at it and say I know our core software quality has improved over the [TS]

  last five years and improved significantly but the bar just keeps [TS]

  going up and that's a bar that we embrace that is a challenge that you [TS]

  know every year we realize we the things we were good at last year and the [TS]

  techniques we were using to build the best software we can are not adequate [TS]

  for the next year because the bar keeps going up we have a billion active [TS]

  devices now and you know if you think back to just nine years ago now with the [TS]

  iphone it how much think back then of kind of how you interface with [TS]

  technology and comparatively how narrowly each of us interface with [TS]

  technology and now think about how integral [TS]

  your iPhone your iPad and and still your Mac are to your life how many hours a [TS]

  day I mean we see the usage metrics and year after year is our team builds a new [TS]

  phone and thinks a batteries we put in this phone we have to go back to them [TS]

  and say guys actually gonna have to update a good because people are using [TS]

  their phones more than ever this year and we see that trend go up and up and [TS]

  up and people are doing more and more and what this means is when you have a [TS]

  billion people running phones in every corner of their lives with all of these [TS]

  third-party apps and all these countries and all these languages that they're [TS]

  going they're going to be issues there were always issues but now these issues [TS]

  are are you know you have plenty of people that that can can encounter one [TS]

  here and there and it gets it gets amplified and maybe I could ask you I [TS]

  mean I i feel like something if you go back five years or ten years in in just [TS]

  the nature of Internet journalism and the press and how stories like this get [TS]

  communicated and amplified is is change things a little bit as well and so I [TS]

  think that plays into this the the the element of why are we hearing about this [TS]

  again or why do we hear about it and in in the way we do but i know we put just [TS]

  tremendous focus on improving our game every year [TS]

  yeah I there's there's a certain aspect to the the basic idea that to me is a [TS]

  little bit more of a of then not just me I'm saying what I detect when I when I [TS]

  see people nodding their heads in agreement on Twitter and and and follow [TS]

  posts to say that the like mossberg column last week that it's more of a gut [TS]

  feeling than anything that anybody can put their finger on and say there's this [TS]

  one thing that you know it absolutely terrible and I know just from you know [TS]

  talking with bill last year and like what you're saying now that you guys [TS]

  have a lot of ways that you measure this stuff with real analytics from the [TS]

  Diagnostics that people explicitly opt-in to provide to you when they're [TS]

  setting up devices that's right and that it there [TS]

  I sense that you guys I mean you two are both you know optimistic cheerful people [TS]

  but I'd I can't [TS]

  help but i suspect and it's not coming from your voices here on this show but I [TS]

  just suspect in general that there's a sort of frustration within the walls at [TS]

  Apple that you guys have these numbers thats a software quality is going up and [TS]

  then on the outside everybody is saying wow so Apple software their their eyes [TS]

  off the ball is that is it frustrating [TS]

  no look I think you said a few words that i would i would disagree with you [TS]

  said everybody i think right [TS]

  the vast majority of our customers are quite happy with our products and the [TS]

  feedback that they they get and and they ask for help and that's why we built [TS]

  things like genius bars which have been very popular why we you know we spend a [TS]

  great deal of money and effort on our apple care and support line so that when [TS]

  people need help you know training all of those things so i think it's it's not [TS]

  to say that we don't have any bugs or that we don't have any issues every [TS]

  every piece of software does we care deeply about it which is why we all you [TS]

  know do all these different touch points monitor them look at the make sure we're [TS]

  addressing them and and at the same time is doing that upping the game even more [TS]

  because part of upping the game is not just standing still and making things [TS]

  that you have work but making them even better make him easier to use those are [TS]

  all the things we have to at the same time in apple customers deserve the best [TS]

  and that's that's absolutely what we're signed up for so if if in way when we [TS]

  hear people are having challenges I'm on the one hand where were frustrated of [TS]

  course to hear it overall characterized as as this the quality is dropping [TS]

  overall because because we know that's not true but at the same time there's [TS]

  certainly reality too if people are having these experiences then there's [TS]

  something we can improve and i can tell you than the number of meetings we have [TS]

  and have had even over the last few weeks where we're constantly talking [TS]

  about how do we up the game because he'd when you talk about a billion customers [TS]

  and you talk about the kind of upgrade rates we have I mean I I think back to [TS]

  when we ship snow leopard and you know how many people install 10 . six . o [TS]

  it effectively no one [TS]

  look I mean you know it approximately no one in fact we used to talk about what [TS]

  the the upgrade rate to this OS will about match the sales of new max that [TS]

  have it installed [TS]

  you know I mean people just didn't upgrade if they did upgrade it's like [TS]

  why do we wait for 10 . six . five or something that you know now we release a [TS]

  piece of software and in a matter of a couple of weeks we have you know coming [TS]

  up on fifty percent of our base running that piece of software i mean hundreds [TS]

  of millions of people suddenly pounding on it running a diversity of apps that [TS]

  just is is unprecedented and and using it in these incredibly connected ways [TS]

  and so yeah the bar the bar is higher and we will continue to adapt every year [TS]

  to meet that challenge and the scale the scale John for this is truly amazing [TS]

  because of the you usage that people i mean they rely on these for their lives [TS]

  I'll give you a couple points that we peek out at 200,000 messages a second [TS]

  that are sent on messages for example we do 750 million transactions every week [TS]

  in our App Store itunes store we've done billions of dollars now you're talking [TS]

  about dollars for payments and Apple pay so you know this is like it's a part of [TS]

  everyone's lives and it's great we love this this is the reason why we know we [TS]

  do what we do and we get up in the morning we're excited about coming in is [TS]

  because we can do more and so the scale of this is is HUGE HUGE [TS]

  so what was the number 4 hot for messages 200k per second at the peak [TS]

  that's right that's people got a lot to say apparently yeah that was probably [TS]

  right like right at the moment in the first quarter the superbowl where they [TS]

  didn't overturn that catch [TS]

  hey force obviously for some reason it was really high from North Carolina I [TS]

  don't know what was but that is extraordinary [TS]

  so that that Eddie that gets to a specific point and this is clearly and [TS]

  in a ball that's in your court is is the general [TS]

  I mean that Apple doesn't do online service as well and you know that's [TS]

  that's your responsibility [TS]

  Oh what do you say to that well I i think you go back to the things that we [TS]

  do really well some of that we earned to be clear right part of the reason we did [TS]

  that many years ago with mobileme your maps but we've corrected those and you [TS]

  look at iCloud we do you know we have 782 million I cloud users some have [TS]

  multiple devices which is why we have a billion devices they upload billions of [TS]

  photos every single week every single day and you you look at the scale of [TS]

  messages you look at Apple pay you look at our stores we run some of the largest [TS]

  services in the world very successfully you take a look at maps we've we've [TS]

  corrected more than a two-and-a-half million customer feedback that we've [TS]

  gotten from customers directly to maps that we've corrected and notified them [TS]

  back that we fix them so that the scale of this is huge and I would compare it [TS]

  to any company out there and and the ramp is unbelievable I mean you consider [TS]

  when we launched a new release of iOS and OS 10 and the corresponding cloud [TS]

  services how we go from effectively 02 unbelievable international scale you [TS]

  know literally overnight [TS]

  it's incredible and the team has you know done that at a scale i think that [TS]

  is I I can't think of another another example of what happens when we turn the [TS]

  lights on on and on a new service like we do and you know it did generally goes [TS]

  off without a hitch [TS]

  the other thing i love about which is I i love this [TS]

  we were not harping our services as the brand the service isn't the the thing [TS]

  it's the experience and so you know whether you're typing in a note on your [TS]

  iPhone and it's on your Mac we're not advertising this is not-- services or [TS]

  anything we just want the experience to be so a lot of these things are behind [TS]

  the scenes and they just work and it's great for customers [TS]

  yeah even I message is a good example of that and i personally have I i I'd send [TS]

  i don't know i i'm a big chunk of that 200,000 messages per second [TS]

  I idea I spend I send a lot of messages and almost all my messages are blue [TS]

  well yeah you have to have good friends [TS]

  yes smart 1i but if you just look at how many people are using a I message and [TS]

  how many messages they're sending it compares you know very very favorably to [TS]

  a lot of the independent messaging apps and services out there like what at what [TS]

  happened we chattin and things like that that and and I feel like that's one of [TS]

  those things that apple doesn't really get credit for that they've got this [TS]

  messaging service with a extraordinary number of users who are extraordinarily [TS]

  engaged with it and it's it's not really figured into you know what Apple does it [TS]

  all because you guys don't really brand it that way you're just like hey just [TS]

  use this app and send it you know send it to the send your message to the [TS]

  person you know and it goes through [TS]

  yeah I think that's what's what's great really about about what we do is we tie [TS]

  together you know the hardware the software and services in a way that you [TS]

  aren't thinking you just used a cloud service necessarily when you bought your [TS]

  new iphone and all your settings came back exactly the way expected and so [TS]

  forth or when we do a feature like Apple pay I mean Apple pay is a hardware [TS]

  feature it's a software feature it's a cloud feature and it just works and it's [TS]

  a tremendous complex undertaking but the customer doesn't have to think about any [TS]

  of those component pieces they they get an experience that hopefully delights [TS]

  them i'll give you a real quick anecdote hopefully quick i was on an airplane [TS]

  recently and [TS]

  is the plane took off and I got on the Wi-Fi and an online service from a [TS]

  different company wasn't an apple thing with somebody else gave me a warning [TS]

  that I couldn't you know look like I was signing in from an unusual location [TS]

  because it was I don't know where the plane Wi-Fi was saying from how do i [TS]

  want to verify that it's really me and I the only options were to get a phone [TS]

  call or an SMS text message which yeah I can't get because I'm 10,000 feet up in [TS]

  here and I showed it to the guy this that my friend for the day sitting next [TS]

  to me on the plane who you know we spoken before the flight took off and he [TS]

  was like oh you can get text I'm texting my I'm texting my wife right now he was [TS]

  sending an is right and I just like oh yeah okay I'll do that you know didn't [TS]

  want to explain but it used a hit he thought he was solving my problem [TS]

  because he just thought wow it's great this is absolutely wonderful i'm texting [TS]

  right now [TS]

  he didn't really have to think about what he's using to text she's just doing [TS]

  it [TS]

  yeah i think it's a fantastic example so let's shift from services to talk about [TS]

  a specific software which isn't really about how it works but really sort of [TS]

  how its design and it's it's itunes on the desktop and here is where i wanted [TS]

  to quote wall so here's what Walt Mossberg wrote Apple's iTunes program [TS]

  was once the envy of the world combined digital music storm player it could also [TS]

  sync your ipod and it worked on both Mac and Windows it was reasonably fast and [TS]

  very sure-footed now I dread opening the thing that and and that's sort of [TS]

  damning and the thing that to me is more damning is that i don't i see a lot of [TS]

  people who agree with that and I don't see anybody who really disagrees with it [TS]

  yeah I look I let's go back to waltz waltz thing specifically to address [TS]

  which is performance issues in that we've actually looked at nothing to do [TS]

  with itunes but your question is still dead on because it's something we [TS]

  started about two years ago thinking about what we wanted to do with itunes [TS]

  and let me walk you back with what was designed from and where I think it can [TS]

  go to so first of all we designed in a time when everybody was sinking directly [TS]

  via cable so the things didn't exist in the cloud and having a centralized place [TS]

  where all of your content was there to sync was really key because it made it [TS]

  really easy to do didn't matter where the content was you didn't have to [TS]

  launch multiple apps you didn't have a separate app that made it really [TS]

  difficult to see and so it works really really well and by the way given that we [TS]

  have a billion devices out there there's still hundreds of millions of people [TS]

  doing exactly that when we went to apple music we said well let's see we're [TS]

  building a new service why don't we do it all in the cloud its Apple music soul [TS]

  in the cloud let's do it that way and one of the things that we wanted to do [TS]

  that was different was we didn't want just the music that lived in the cloud [TS]

  if you had music whether it was you know a live performance Bruce Springsteen for [TS]

  example which i just bought haven't seen the new show and I'm a huge bruise fan [TS]

  how do i get that to the cloud well and most the services that are out there [TS]

  there's no way to do that because it was an itunes that lets you do that and it's [TS]

  very easy to upload that into the cloud and then exist in all of your devices [TS]

  and so we decided that in the short term we wanted to do is is really make it so [TS]

  that when you're in music and itunes all you see is music and and if you were [TS]

  doing a separate music app it would really look a lot like itunes when [TS]

  you're in the music player because there's only one area where you pick [TS]

  which media type you want to do [TS]

  that's not to say that we are continuing and will continue to think about what's [TS]

  the best way to architect the app and whether it makes sense to a separate app [TS]

  for some of the components that are in their all the components that are in [TS]

  there but right now we think we've designed itunes and and you'll see it [TS]

  we've got a new refreshed with the new version of os pendants coming out [TS]

  next month that makes it even easier to use in the music space and they're [TS]

  definitely there's a big responsibility and transitioning the experiences for [TS]

  for a lot of these apps so these are so important to people we see it every time [TS]

  we change them at all you know there are cases where you look at photos where we [TS]

  did a really bold rethink of where photos needed to go and and how to [TS]

  transition and by and large I think that's been well-received and I I i [TS]

  personally love it and but but you'll hear people who say hold on you know [TS]

  there was a reason why i like the way things used to be and people are pretty [TS]

  serious about their music and about their collection and so I think I think [TS]

  we we talk a lot we debate pretty heavily internally the right the right [TS]

  way to evolve these things and and you know we we tend to err on the side of [TS]

  being pretty bold but there there's a lot of responsibility we could be you [TS]

  get the other side of these these stories you know some of the people when [TS]

  you talk about people not in your your head if I if I look at some of the [TS]

  comments that come online when people say yeah apple apples quality is bad and [TS]

  someone will say yeah like when they took away my my I photo and replaced [TS]

  with photos I don't like the new Photos app and that's why they think Apple [TS]

  software quality is bad now many of us would say well hold on no there's [TS]

  exactly an example of where Apple software quality is is quite good we [TS]

  delivered something faster cleaner simpler but someone's gonna say no but [TS]

  it's changed and and I was attached to it and so this is a this is a tricky [TS]

  balancing act and I think our customers give us a lot of responsibility to [TS]

  thoughtfully evolve their experiences and we we try to take that [TS]

  responsibility very seriously i don't i don't think anybody would disagree that [TS]

  institutionally Apple it compared to its that any company my compared against his [TS]

  has been always more willing to push through changes whether you go back to [TS]

  the eighties and say that the the Macintosh debuted without any kind of [TS]

  command line at all which was the only way anybody knew how to use a computer [TS]

  until then they're like no this is the right way you know that to another [TS]

  almost canonical example of it was the 1998 orig [TS]

  climax shipping without a floppy disk and it's nobody's ever i can have a [TS]

  personal computer without a floppy disk little things like that do you do you [TS]

  guys find though that it's getting harder to do that now that you're [TS]

  talking about having 700 800 million users is a harder because of that resist [TS]

  that that natural part of humanity that just is resistant to change of any kind [TS]

  sure it's of course it's harder when you have more customers [TS]

  those things are harder to do but that doesn't at least for me and I've been [TS]

  here when we were really small and that were much larger it hasn't really [TS]

  changed we were still willing to push we just have to make sure that we we think [TS]

  about the ways that people are using the product and when we make the changes [TS]

  that they're not significant and we're improving more than we're actually [TS]

  taking away or that it's the right thing to do and so we you have to be a little [TS]

  more conscious of understanding all the different ways in which customers use it [TS]

  but you better you bet we got to keep pushing because if you want to innovate [TS]

  you gotta move [TS]

  you can't sit still with what you have yeah and it's so strong internally i [TS]

  mean the base to the the base instinct of everyone here is let's let's do it [TS]

  let's do it the right way if this is now the right way [TS]

  forget the past let's do it the right way and it's a second thought that will [TS]

  hold on okay what does that mean for the transition and and and taking our [TS]

  customers along with us on this but it's it's so integral Doe who we are and how [TS]

  people think hear that yeah there there's more of an external there's a [TS]

  larger customer base that we have responsibility for but we know part of [TS]

  why they're Apple customers because that's what they expect from us we would [TS]

  be doing them a disservice if we stopped pushing all right let me let me make [TS]

  this specific comparison between two apps that we've just been talking about [TS]

  is I itunes and photos for mac so in the digital hub era when the mac was [TS]

  positioned here's our idea for the Mac it's your digital hub for all of these [TS]

  little devices like cameras and ipods that you that you have in your life [TS]

  I photo was the mac solution of photos and itunes was the mac and windows [TS]

  solution to music and then later you know media like TV shows and stuff [TS]

  the new strategy is clearly iCloud centric I mean you guys have been [TS]

  explicit about that since I cloud was announced in on stage in 2011 [TS]

  yeah and it didn't come right away it wasn't like photos format came out [TS]

  immediately but that was the answer in $YEAR and last year was really that [TS]

  transition year but the idea was look I photo is great for then but now we've [TS]

  got this Photos app which is truly just appear to what you've got on your iOS [TS]

  devices and its really designed for the modern age in the modern modern model [TS]

  and itunes and music haven't really made that shift is is that because music is [TS]

  different and because itunes different responsibilities or is it because itunes [TS]

  has to exist for windows and iphoto didn't or or is it something else [TS]

  no it's look I think you're seeing music make that transition now since last year [TS]

  when we introduced Apple music [TS]

  the truth is music before that was very local it really didn't live in the cloud [TS]

  and you you moved your content by moving it to a device locally and and then the [TS]

  device was there and then if you wanted to update that device you brought it [TS]

  back now that we've and it's not just bringing a subscription service as I [TS]

  said it's about bringing all of your music no matter how you acquired it if [TS]

  it doesn't exist in the subscription service and you bought yourself [TS]

  separately or it's available separately as a bootleg all of the things that you [TS]

  that you consume with music and we're seeing that transition now so for myself [TS]

  you know I live in a world where my music is all in the cloud and I think [TS]

  we're going to see more and more customers we just passed over 11 million [TS]

  Apple music subscribers and all of those people live in a world where music is in [TS]

  the cloud [TS]

  ah it did so that's a big no 11 million the Apple music subscribers is it is a [TS]

  big number and it's only since ma wanted to come out of beta it well it came out [TS]

  in September but we gave away the the first 3 months for free so tight so [TS]

  think about it as a you know later in the year went over it it so it the end [TS]

  of growth rate is is good on that we've been very pleased it's it's great we [TS]

  just [TS]

  just this past week we introduced in taiwan and we also introduced in Turkey [TS]

  which has been great we introduce the version for Android our first android [TS]

  application and our second we had we had moved to iOS that's true thank you [TS]

  much-loved app on the Android Play Store it's always a good always a good source [TS]

  of humor is to go [TS]

  it's like going to read the yelp reviews for your favorite local restaurants and [TS]

  seeing seeing the people who don't get it [TS]

  and one of the things we've learned by the way is as we've gone to Apple music [TS]

  is that we have to educate people as much as all of us know about music [TS]

  subscriptions when you go around the world [TS]

  what does it mean to be to have access to all of the music in the world and [TS]

  what does that mean and how does that work and and that's something that we're [TS]

  doing a lot of work on right now because we noticed that you know a lot of times [TS]

  people just didn't understand the concept what you mean i pay 99 what do I [TS]

  get how do i get it all of those things and that's been a big part of moving the [TS]

  number and continuing to move the number forward right before we wrap this up [TS]

  there's there's a topic I want to get to and as I guess it's a little bit more on [TS]

  craigs side of the court but I've got some good friends so if i don't talk [TS]

  about this I think you're going to just shoot me because i have the opportunity [TS]

  this about a dynamic dispatch an objective-c I'm ready [TS]

  oh so I is about radar so any mentioned that with maps maps has a feature where [TS]

  if you see an error you can report the error and when it gets fixed you get [TS]

  notified and says hey thank you for reporting that you know that this road [TS]

  is not where it used to be where there's a new road here we have now fixed it [TS]

  what I hear a lot from my friends who are third-party developers is that sense [TS]

  that radar is nearly a black hole that you file your report it goes in there [TS]

  and an awful lot of bugs that even even ones that are submitted with examples [TS]

  like here run this example code and it will prove that this is a bug in this [TS]

  form new version of the OS and then you just never they just never hear anything [TS]

  yeah like how can grade are getting more like Apple maps where it it gives I i'm [TS]

  serious i think the developers really end and I feel like it's it's a it's a [TS]

  what's that I don't know what the opposite of a virtuous circle and in [TS]

  virtuous circle where developers if they feel like it's a black hole they report [TS]

  fewer bugs because they feel like they're wasting their time and [TS]

  developers not reporting bugs is I'm sure not what you want but that's for [TS]

  sure [TS]

  yeah um where I mean quite honestly we're not where we want to be with with [TS]

  radar as an externally facing tool I mean it's the lifeblood of the [TS]

  organization in terms of how we we manager bugs and manage our releases and [TS]

  I file tons of them and and so does everyone who works works here in [TS]

  software but our external interface is not great and a big part of that is [TS]

  something we struggle with is how we sort out communicating about the issues [TS]

  that we fix because you may report an issue we may do pit to a bug that were [TS]

  working on fixing we may fix that bug maybe we fix it in iOS 10 maybe we fix [TS]

  it in something that's probably going to go in iOS 9 . 3 you want to know that we [TS]

  fixed it we don't necessarily right now have a great way to decide when we want [TS]

  to communicate to you that there's a release that it's getting fixed in that [TS]

  were promising that that the fix is going to happen and so we fundamentally [TS]

  of communication feedback problems that we need to sort out i can tell you that [TS]

  the reports do get read that they do influence what we do but our back [TS]

  channel communication is needs needs some work because we we we are reading [TS]

  them we just don't tell you what's happening with them and I understand [TS]

  absolutely the frustration of a lot of a lot of developers who file those bugs do [TS]

  you agree that that sort of improving that as as a it is sort of a point where [TS]

  the trickle down from that where if you guys can improve the back-channel [TS]

  communications from radar it would influence the sort of lots of little [TS]

  bugs getting fixed that people are complaining about an address it's like a [TS]

  centralized place to address the widespread entire user base wide program [TS]

  a problem of hate this little thing [TS]

  is going wrong and I don't understand why I i think i think it helps I think [TS]

  we we have other ways also that we're getting a lot of great feedback we did [TS]

  our our first as you know public beta for iOS and year ago the public beta for [TS]

  OS 10 and actually in that way brought you over million people in into the [TS]

  program and we did include in those a feedback assistant tool which was meant [TS]

  as a as a you know kind of radar like feedback tool but one that we could you [TS]

  know the average person can choose whether an iOS and OS 10 and it [TS]

  automatically not only just give us what the user types but it automatically [TS]

  gives us a lot of additional diagnostics they they get prompted and so is it okay [TS]

  if we send this in this back and gives us some really great actionable [TS]

  information about the issues then covered so that's that's another great [TS]

  channel to find out about the issues people are are running into and it's [TS]

  made a huge difference on the the quality of our software i mean we just [TS]

  one metric and it's not there there's lots of different ways in which lots of [TS]

  different kinds of feedback we get but something is very measurable things like [TS]

  crash rate and i can tell you in the past you see this the seesaw pattern [TS]

  where add audio release would come out and that would have a you know certain [TS]

  hi crash rate and then we'd issue or software updates and that rate would go [TS]

  down after doing a public beta here for iOS our release our . 049 . o was better [TS]

  than any previous release of iOS 8 that the numbers that and and those are the [TS]

  kind of systematic steps we can get feedback from our from our users both [TS]

  automatic and and the kind of things where they write up an issue and it [TS]

  helps us improve the product so you're going to see more and more of that from [TS]

  us and we think it continues to pay off [TS]

  so you're just abbreviate that I just make sure I heard you correctly you're [TS]

  saying that when nine-point-oh came out the release version that the crash rate [TS]

  for apps was actually lower than the version of iOS 8 whatever the you know [TS]

  stable version of iOS 8 was that people were upgrading from that's right of our [TS]

  apps writer [TS]

  okay yeah yeah third party apps are a I don't actually have the number on that [TS]

  but they're there uh that's always a challenge i mean what's the one thing [TS]

  honestly that can happen to us on quality [TS]

  is sometimes also a third party will happen to ship a nap about the same time [TS]

  we ship in OS update and an independent of that app starts crashing and that [TS]

  affects user party so you gotta cut it's always a challenge to cut through the [TS]

  noise but we have pretty good analytics and our numbers are you no Sean we're on [TS]

  the right track there [TS]

  well it's it's about the time to wrap this up i wanted to know that because [TS]

  you guys are nice and quiet is there anything that I haven't asked you that [TS]

  you wished i had is there something that you guys were wanted to talk about that [TS]

  we haven't discussed well since this is an audio podcast and not a video 1 i'm [TS]

  disappointed that you can see the purple shirt on work he did really rise to the [TS]

  occasion I don't know that he thought he was gonna be on camera here but he's in [TS]

  full stage where it's you know I I thought about that just before we got on [TS]

  the air ice think I i linked to a story The New York Times had about this [TS]

  amazing science that that astronomers have done where they they've measured as [TS]

  audio this gravitational wave that proves this thing I'm Stein predicted a [TS]

  hundred years ago that if two black holes collided you'd be able to produce [TS]

  this gravity way that you can hear and I thought wouldn't that be great with a [TS]

  microphone that could produce this sound of various Eddie's yes [TS]

  yeah we also really didn't send us that experience yeah and it's all the senses [TS]

  come alive when we see a t-shirt [TS]

  we just didn't have enough time to set up the technology maybe next time this [TS]

  was great [TS]

  I i hope you guys enjoyed it as much as i did I love John I got one question for [TS]

  you though so against we started with sports and it's almost baseball season [TS]

  give me your world series production [TS]

  I i hate to say about it i think the Cubs because it doesn't seem like a good [TS]

  bet but for the Cubs look good in the National League and the American League [TS]

  boy I i I'll just go out on a limb and say the new york yankees [TS]

  ha ha ha that was fulfilled so that's good that's great you got to remember [TS]

  though it isn't even year and even years san francisco giants always win [TS]

  that's the weirdest little like inexplicable like they've and they've [TS]

  kept the core together I don't understand that at all i don't know if [TS]

  they just party way too hard after they went a world series and tanks the whole [TS]

  next season are or what but that is the weirdest little mini dynasty streak I've [TS]

  ever seen his cuz I i don't know i don't know that i'd want to bet against the [TS]

  giant snakes here [TS]

  alright was great talking to you thank you thank you both [TS]

  Eddy Cue Craig federighi I really greatly appreciate the time [TS]

  thanks John [TS]