The Talk Show

147: ‘iTools or Whatever’, With Special Guest Jim Dalrymple


  what a week once a week so I thought that we would be talking about by [TS]

  interview with the craig federighi in an EQ and apple software quality and we can [TS]

  get to that later but obviously this is this is a week when there's actually a [TS]

  very clear i can't wait to get to that later [TS]

  so let's I mean for anybody who's had their head in the ground all week or [TS]

  anybody who I guess is listening you know I guess you always have to preface [TS]

  this podcast because who knows when somebody's gonna listen to you know go [TS]

  back and listen old episodes but this was the week where tuesday night Apple [TS]

  published an open letter from Tim Cook revealing that the FBI and it has [TS]

  obtained a court order to compel Apple to support long story short supply the [TS]

  FBI with a custom version of iOS that would help them break the passcode of an [TS]

  iphone 5c that was owned by or wasn't really owned by was used by one of the [TS]

  shooters in the San Bernardino incident a few months ago right and apple is [TS]

  saying that you know the day they have helped in cooperating with law [TS]

  enforcement many times in the past and I think they might still in the future but [TS]

  in terms of value know what they're willing to do supplying in a [TS]

  more-or-less writing malware for iOS is a line that they don't want to cross and [TS]

  then haul he'll listen [TS]

  well I i have a lot of respect for apple for for standing up for you know for [TS]

  what they believe in [TS]

  they they could just as easily have have you know gone along with it and kept [TS]

  quiet all right but they didn't [TS]

  yeah I I brought up you know it's funny thing and we can write about this too [TS]

  it's an interesting i took an interesting strategy this weekend during [TS]

  fire but I've been very active have a lot of posts on this but i didn't write [TS]

  like a feature of a column or article it's all just links and my commentary [TS]

  interspersed in there with without really writing one big article and I [TS]

  expected like when I woke [TS]

  wednesday morning i thought well i gotta write and i have to write like a big [TS]

  piece about this and as I started like reading everything that was out there I [TS]

  was like you know it look one way to put it would be that I spent the week [TS]

  blogging not writing [TS]

  yeah you know what i mean and I in a way I feel like it was it was a better use [TS]

  of my time in a better a service to the readers of daring fireball because i [TS]

  found so many good articles that other people had written that we're making a [TS]

  point I wanted to make that rather than remake them myself why not just point [TS]

  them to them and then add my two cents on this better one of the points I [TS]

  didn't make it and i really think it's important for people who listen to our [TS]

  shows or read our websites because I think overwhelmingly the people who like [TS]

  reading fireball or the loop and listen to the talk show are already on our side [TS]

  and that they and that they have a basic enough grasp of the way encryption works [TS]

  that they see apples . but I really can't emphasize enough how many you know [TS]

  how I don't wear an echo chamber here with the people who agree with this and [TS]

  if you get outside and go to the real world where people don't understand [TS]

  encryption the support for apple is not is as clear cut or blanket you know and [TS]

  it's dangerous for a politically that they really are going out on the land [TS]

  yeah they really are and it's it's it's it's not funny i guess but it's when you [TS]

  look at at the case that the the FBI chose to use this on i mean they were [TS]

  very deliberated they they wanted something that would fire up the public [TS]

  so much against apple and in some ways that's worked you know people are saying [TS]

  in some circles people are saying that Apple should comply because these were [TS]

  bad people and we need to stop at people but there's bigger issues than that it's [TS]

  not just this one issue [TS]

  yeah it's not so much maybe maybe fired up against apple is the wrong way to put [TS]

  it not equivalent with your words but it's a little bit more that that people [TS]

  would universally side with the FBI and similar the FBI has got to be able to to [TS]

  get at these peoples phones [TS]

  and it really is a just perfectly crafted case from the FBI's perspective [TS]

  because it was a terrible insult everybody agrees with that I mean the [TS]

  Apple goes out of its way to say this is a terrible incident and you know we'll [TS]

  do anything we can that we think is within the law and within our the [TS]

  interest of maintaining overall security for our users to help but let's just [TS]

  face it i mean the fact that these were people from a Muslim background it it [TS]

  makes it even worse there's there's an element to enter let you know as opposed [TS]

  to if it was the guy remember it was just like a week or two prior to that if [TS]

  it was the guy from Colorado who shot up [TS]

  Planned Parenthood it that wouldn't do it at the way that having it be suspects [TS]

  of a Muslim descent just because that's its that's the way it is that human [TS]

  nature [TS]

  yeah you know and it's in that in it that's what their banking them right [TS]

  that it's just it's that the politics of that and the the emotional dynamic of [TS]

  that or just overwhelmingly you know powerful and I don't know that it is I [TS]

  think an apple is saying maybe not [TS]

  well and and I i think if you look at Tim Cook's letter I it's very compelling [TS]

  i think it was well thought out very well written and Ed brings up some [TS]

  really great . so I mean that was that was written [TS]

  I mean you could see Tim saying that yeah you know and i think by now we we [TS]

  all can believe what what tim says he stands on on principle and he does what [TS]

  he says he's going to do now [TS]

  mattapan torino had a good article pointing out the differences you know [TS]

  that there's one of the cynical takes on this is and it's definitely not just [TS]

  from one source in Matthew pantry no story had a couple of links to it but [TS]

  going to paraphrase it but that [TS]

  more or less claiming that Apple's showboating and trying to gain publicity [TS]

  for being you know having these super secure phones and you know getting [TS]

  people to say wow iphone is so powerful the FBI can't even crack it and using [TS]

  that as a positive thing and in the past apple has helped the FBI 70 times to do [TS]

  the same thing and you know if you want to be cynical like that and say that [TS]

  Apple is trying to make this a thing that brag about the iphone security [TS]

  you're welcome to but i really i really think that that's that I don't think [TS]

  that's the case I think it's so risky because now you've got like presidential [TS]

  candidates like down you know doctors ridiculous it's ridiculous that I'm [TS]

  talking about it seriously but he is the lead the leading Republican presidential [TS]

  candidate is saying flat-out Apple Apple should absolutely who do they think they [TS]

  are where his actual words who do they think they are heat being that they [TS]

  absolutely should comply with this court case that it's become part of our you [TS]

  know political debate and to say that this is a sure win hope you know PR y is [TS]

  for Apple is to me [TS]

  I think you're looking for the central angle but the bigger difference is that [TS]

  what Apple has done in the past when they help law enforcement is very [TS]

  different it and I know saying very might you might say seems to know just [TS]

  like one little step it's different it's you know in the past they have helped [TS]

  them you know without modifying the software help them use this offer as is [TS]

  to get data off the phone right and in times past in years past a lot less of [TS]

  the information on the phones was encrypted [TS]

  it's really only in recent years that the entire disk of the you know storage [TS]

  volume of the iphone is is full disk encryption let me ask you something why [TS]

  do you think the other tech companies heaven take us taking a stronger stand [TS]

  ah well I think it's multifaceted but i think one of them is that and I think [TS]

  his pants are a no again had though was it the why Apple peace and more or less [TS]

  i wasn't pantry know it was a curing Healey who i'd like to that's right i'm [TS]

  trying to put that in charlotte show notes but but can he lead his argument [TS]

  was to pay again to paraphrase apples the only company that still makes [TS]

  hardware that really is a hardware company and because of that you know [TS]

  none of these other companies you know Google yes google makes nexus devices [TS]

  and yes Microsoft makes the nokia phones which have look I mean literally no [TS]

  exaggeration like you know 1.1 percent market share [TS]

  it's not as important to them or as Apple's fundamental business is selling [TS]

  Hardware to people and that there's a trust issue there that put apple in a [TS]

  position that no other company really is where this is a big deal [TS]

  secondarily i think that there are other and again this is starting to be a [TS]

  little cynical but i think that you know a new york times even mentioned this in [TS]

  articles but that apple doesn't depend on government sales to a large degree [TS]

  whereas microsoft just signed for example a huge deal to get the entire [TS]

  department of defense to upgrade all of their pcs to windows 10 and that they [TS]

  don't want to anger them i'm not quite sure why Google doesn't take a stronger [TS]

  stance but they clearly don't [TS]

  yeah what do you think well I was talking to to Peter Cohen last night and [TS]

  Peter said maybe they don't want everybody to know that they've already [TS]

  cooperated with the government which is you know really cynical stand but i [TS]

  don't know i mean obviously they don't want this the FBI sites turned on them [TS]

  right now they're just trying to keep their their head down that's that's an [TS]

  obvious . but you know is there something else in there right [TS]

  did I mean if they take a big standards the government gonna come back and [TS]

  they were what are you talking about you know you were already given us lots of [TS]

  info right that in some way however to whatever degree they've already [TS]

  cooperated with the government past is something the government can hold [TS]

  against them [TS]

  party city was yeah that might be a good argument there and I'll just emphasize [TS]

  it one of the things that's you know I think overlooked in this if you just [TS]

  look at it in broad terms that while apple won't cooperate with the FBI on [TS]

  this san bernardino case they have already like the in just for example [TS]

  that the suspect in this case apparently was using iCloud backup until a certain [TS]

  point and I actually think this is one of the things that I've been looking [TS]

  around I don't know that we on the outside have a very good understanding [TS]

  of just how available [TS]

  what what is the encryption on the stuff that's backed up from my cloud like when [TS]

  they come but anyway the Apple did come comply with the FBI and supplied them [TS]

  with access to some some ask some subset of their whatever is the unencrypted [TS]

  part of the iCloud backup from this San Bernardino shooter the reason the FBI [TS]

  wants the phone is that there was like six weeks after the last backup to [TS]

  iCloud you know between that last backup in the incident and they're they're [TS]

  concerned it's it seems like a reasonable concern that maybe there's [TS]

  some you know actionable intelligence in that in turn but it's not like Apple [TS]

  hasn't done what they can they're just saying here's a line we're not going to [TS]

  draw are we are going to draw it is there i want to read this one bit from [TS]

  Tim Cook's or letter there's a whole thing is really good but i really like [TS]

  this part on the government is asking Apple to hack our own users and [TS]

  undermine decades of security advancements that protect our customers [TS]

  including tens of millions of American citizens from sophisticated hackers and [TS]

  cyber criminals and here's the to meet the really compelling part of this the [TS]

  same engineers who built strong encryption into the iphone to protect [TS]

  our users would ironically be ordered to weaken those protections and make our [TS]

  users less safe [TS]

  and I to me that is really compelling I you know if you're that an engineer at [TS]

  apple who works on this security stuff you're more or less your career is [TS]

  devoted to only in one direction making things more secure for users and then to [TS]

  be compelled to do the exact opposite is I honestly I think it's something that [TS]

  some people would object to do that some people would stab you know you can court [TS]

  order me to do it but I'm not going to do it and would they be right in some [TS]

  sense i mean maybe not like I'm not a lawyer i can't i can't legally that they [TS]

  could object but certainly morally great i mean i-i I don't know where this goes [TS]

  what if Apple is compelled to do this [TS]

  what do they do well I I mean we know what's going to the supreme court either [TS]

  way I guess I I honestly don't know how stuff works you know its way through the [TS]

  supreme court though in a case where the where the FBI might be saying you know [TS]

  time is of the essence you know we want to get this information while it's still [TS]

  warm [TS]

  you know there's no point to getting it they're not building a case one thing to [TS]

  note just in case anybody has forgotten the details of it they're not using this [TS]

  to build a criminal case against the San Bernardino shooters because because [TS]

  they're dead right so it's really just trying to find actionable intelligence [TS]

  that might lead them to discover if they had if there was anybody else involved [TS]

  if there's anybody else they know who you know they ought to be looking at who [TS]

  might be planning something in the future so it in that case it's you know [TS]

  time is of the essence so i don't know i would guess it's going to though I mean [TS]

  that and then you know that I that the FBI obviously you know in the Justice [TS]

  Department has some sort of path to expedite you know a case to the Supreme [TS]

  Court but aren't they using this more as a precedent so that they can say okay [TS]

  you you can order to do this and by the way we have these other five phone said [TS]

  we needed done on right i think i think that this is all about [TS]

  president I think it's less I and again you can you accuse me of being cynical [TS]

  and maybe i'm wrong but it it seems to me from what I know of the case that the [TS]

  to Center bernardino suspects didn't don't really seem like they were part of [TS]

  you know a widespread terrorist group it wasn't like they were really part of [TS]

  like al-qaeda or Isis or whatever you know other groups are out there that [TS]

  they were just two cooks you know and you know mentally ill and and poisoned [TS]

  by it by this ideology but it was it doesn't really seem like they were any [TS]

  kind of masterminds I mean it wasn't really a very mean it was a terrible [TS]

  tragedy but it really seemed a little bit more bitterly personal that they [TS]

  went shot a place where they work and they had you know you know personal [TS]

  beefs with the people who who shot it up so I I think logically that the FBI [TS]

  making a big cases isn't really about getting information that's going to save [TS]

  people you know that they really need it i think it's i think it's about the [TS]

  president I mean and that once you've got what if they win this and they get [TS]

  this they have a precedent that says we can come now we can use this president [TS]

  to compel tech companies not just to give this it give us information that [TS]

  they have access to but to force them to write software that gives us the access [TS]

  that we want to write I mean and it's all sorts of there's all sorts of [TS]

  implications that this brief if you take this president is as logical that all [TS]

  sorts of things could happen could they compel Apple to re-engineer I message to [TS]

  22 so that it's not end-to-end encrypted anymore right [TS]

  and II the the followed from this is endless [TS]

  could be but [TS]

  so let's look at the other way would have a win i think that nothing I think [TS]

  that's you know nothing bad happens I think I mean and I guess other than the [TS]

  fact that you know it's possible that in the future case there would be one where [TS]

  there's information on a phone that law enforcement as and they can't get to it [TS]

  and if they could it would be better for society but that's you know that's sort [TS]

  of situation is that that's the price of Liberty right like you can't take I [TS]

  don't think you can take the absolute I personally feel very strong you can't [TS]

  take the absolutist position that law enforcement should be able to get [TS]

  anything and everything they want the elevator that the FBI wins and and now [TS]

  Apple has to write the software and break into the phone but what's stopping [TS]

  people then just not using Apple's built-in things and using another form [TS]

  of happen and strong encryption right do they does the FBI then need to sue that [TS]

  company to open up right that's one of the reasons that I feel I honestly feel [TS]

  that the FBI is being driven and part of this is really driven by the public [TS]

  statements of like FBI director Comey and and others is that a large part of [TS]

  this is I hate to say it because I'd like to think that we'd have better [TS]

  people in there but people who generally genuinely don't understand the [TS]

  technology right and they don't understand that you either either [TS]

  everybody has security through encryption or nobody does and that there [TS]

  is no way to have security and again i add a couple of people of emphasizes [TS]

  there's privacy angles on this but there's I i think the security angle is [TS]

  is more compelling and you know it's a little you know some of its conflated [TS]

  but it's you know what happens if somebody steals your phone are you leave [TS]

  it in a cab and somebody gets it and it's it's not it and it's relatively [TS]

  easier there's some sort of known way [TS]

  to get to the contents of it well there's that's genuine security problem [TS]

  given the information that a lot of us have on our phones but you know [TS]

  financial information you know and a personal information you know the photos [TS]

  we have and stuff like that [TS]

  I it's definitely a security thing but I feel like that the the FBI clearly [TS]

  doesn't see this properly that they're looking that they there somehow looking [TS]

  for some kind of magic solution but it would it would really like a law that [TS]

  that that crippled apples ability just pick one company but are any US company [TS]

  that but a US company to do not have secure encryption on these devices would [TS]

  really harm them in the worldwide market it truly would because there's [TS]

  absolutely nothing [TS]

  it wouldn't keep people bad guys from having encryption it would only keep [TS]

  them from having encryption out-of-the-box on a us-made device right [TS]

  right [TS]

  isn't that what I mean that's more or less what you're saying right right yeah [TS]

  and ok so the US government win says then every other government is going to [TS]

  come and say yeah wewe kind of want to look at this fellow's phone [TS]

  absolutely and you know that there's this funny thing and who knows [TS]

  by the time the show airs maybe the times will have a separate story about [TS]

  it but there was this weird thing I link to yesterday where it was actually [TS]

  Edward Snowden was the one whose Twitter account and he's been all over this on [TS]

  twitter for obvious reasons on but Edward Snowden noted a passage in a new [TS]

  york times story on this that was about China and like within an hour that the [TS]

  whole segment of the article was edited out of the new york times article it [TS]

  still isn't back but basically here's what it said I'll just read it this is [TS]

  from New York Times report [TS]

  china is watching the dispute closely analyste the Chinese government does [TS]

  take cues from the United States when it comes to encryption regulations and that [TS]

  it would most likely demand that multinational companies provide [TS]

  accommodation similar to those in the United States last year beijing backed [TS]

  off several proposals that would have mandated that foreign firms provide [TS]

  providing encryption keys for devices sold in China after [TS]

  heavy pressure from foreign trade groups a push from American law enforcement [TS]

  agencies to unlock iphones would embolden Beijing to demand the same i [TS]

  think it's clear i mean China is just one country i mean why wouldn't every [TS]

  country right and then what is Apple's gonna need to open up a brand new [TS]

  company just to shoot with all of this stuff right [TS]

  I mean does does Apple give the software to the FBI in order to hack it [TS]

  themselves or does the FBI give the device to apple an apple doesn't believe [TS]

  from what i read of this case that at FBI is offered either way that they've [TS]

  said whatever you want if you want to give us the software and have us do it [TS]

  we'll do it if you want us to bring the device to you and do it your facilities [TS]

  will do that they just want the code but it's a slippery so either way i really [TS]

  do think so [TS]

  I absolutely and I know that slippery slope arguments it it may be there [TS]

  overused you know overall just in our debates about all sorts of stuff but I [TS]

  think in this case it really is a slippery slope [TS]

  it isn't isn't the government's position that they just want this one device you [TS]

  know that's all we want we just want this one device but once that's done [TS]

  there's no turning back right because that's how the law works you know it's [TS]

  you know one case sets precedent for future cases [TS]

  yeah which is why Apple has to take a stand on this one and you know that's [TS]

  why I think what what the government did in choosing this case was so strategic [TS]

  for yeah i think and again it's you know the basic just about it with you know if [TS]

  you really want to talk about good guys and bad guys is that even reasonably [TS]

  smart and well-organized bad guys are going to use their own encryption [TS]

  software not that necessary that they wrote but that they're going to do you [TS]

  know it's obviously is out there and and the u.s. can't stop the rest of the [TS]

  world from writing good secure encryption software right um that's it [TS]

  they're just going to use [TS]

  third-party software if the first party software can and maybe for reasonable [TS]

  reasons maybe the smart ones already don't trust anything written by Apple or [TS]

  Google or would you know any other US company and they're already doing it and [TS]

  the dumb bad guys with their dollars right so why do you need [TS]

  why do you need to make everybody software insecure do your job right like [TS]

  its it and I guess part of it is that there's an entitlement as in the u.s. [TS]

  like law enforcement gets so in the u.s. is in such a privileged position in [TS]

  terms of what they get in the way that they're you know they have access to so [TS]

  much but that they there's a sense of entitlement that not only should they be [TS]

  able to get stuff but they should be able to get whatever they want easily [TS]

  and there is you know that's not necessarily the case if the truth is [TS]

  that its it really really mathematically difficult or we even to the point of [TS]

  calling impossible to break the encryption on the device well tough [TS]

  noogies you know I mean you've got that's you know you guys have a tough [TS]

  job [TS]

  I mean I'm not saying that a glibly and I realized that mistakes can be high in [TS]

  a you know a criminal case or in an investigation but that's just the way it [TS]

  is it's really it's not that different than arguing a and I go these analogies [TS]

  sometimes to the real world can get can get difficult but it's like sometimes [TS]

  people will say you know what why would you feel if if somebody kidnapped a [TS]

  family member and the police knew where they were but they couldn't break down [TS]

  the door [TS]

  that's a rough and it's a tough analogy because i don't think there exists like [TS]

  a door that the police can't break into right but that sort but like what if you [TS]

  could make one what if what if it somebody invents at adore you could [TS]

  build a house that that the police can't break into would that be illegal [TS]

  not with that there's no law against it now you have to pass a law specifically [TS]

  against it right at it [TS]

  just that the math is such that we've been able to make virtual locks through [TS]

  encryption that are actually unbreakable and the government of all organizations [TS]

  tells us to be safe and tells us to you know not necessarily encrypt everything [TS]

  but do everything that you can to to protect yourself in your identity and [TS]

  and protect all this stuff but as soon as they make it back door then the back [TS]

  door is there for everybody and and I don't know what they don't understand [TS]

  about that i mean you mentioned it earlier about these people not [TS]

  understanding the technology but do they not care that they're making a backdoor [TS]

  or do they really not understand that once the back door is there it's there [TS]

  for all [TS]

  well I'll just out to pick and iíve mentioned Trump before our pics on from [TS]

  the other side but I've listened to Hillary Clinton talked about this [TS]

  several times and she heard her argument is one of us will put enough smart [TS]

  people in a room and I'm sure they'll be able to come up with something and I get [TS]

  asked I genuinely think she believes that but it's that's there's you know [TS]

  what they're looking for it what day and what they claim that smart people at [TS]

  Apple and Google ought to be able to make is is something that the FBI can [TS]

  use and no one else can use and that's just not that's not possible [TS]

  and there's just you can keep talking in circles about it but there's just no way [TS]

  that it could happen so doesn't the government have enough smart people of [TS]

  their own that are telling them this is impossible [TS]

  I don't know that there must be at it at a certain level one everybody right but [TS]

  that may be that they're not because they're not at the you know executive [TS]

  ranks that they're you know they're its treated as well that's your argument you [TS]

  know here's our argument we want the information and it seems to be kind of a [TS]

  you know they've got the blinders on and they can see beyond apple is the [TS]

  information they just have to get through apple to get it [TS]

  I'm this all fits with something and i think apple is not surprised by this I [TS]

  think Apple as I don't you know I know a couple of these articles have have [TS]

  really put this as a linchpin of of the Tim Cook era at apple and i'm not quite [TS]

  sure how much that has to do with the difference between Tim Cook and steve [TS]

  jobs and how much it has to do with just the timing of you know when Jobs got ill [TS]

  enough to step down and and cook took over but you know which is when this [TS]

  issue became hot you know that that you know it it just coincides you know that [TS]

  the transition from from jobs to cook coincides with when this you know the [TS]

  cell phones as objects of desire from law enforcement really heated up but the [TS]

  gist of it is I heard this years ago from a couple people at Apple was that [TS]

  the edict came down from the top from tim cook on down that anything new that [TS]

  we create that stores data I we should store in a way that even we can't see it [TS]

  so that when we get requests for it we can say we can't give it to you that [TS]

  other and that and that anything we already have existing systems that maybe [TS]

  don't comply with that they need to be identified and we need to rewrite them [TS]

  in a way that that you know protect the data so that we even we can't do it and [TS]

  that that's the only way that you know we can have joined and purpose of this [TS]

  isn't up to obstruct law enforcement it's that if we don't take that [TS]

  philosophy that even we can't get the data then it's not really safe right and [TS]

  I I think that goes back a lot to you know where Apple makes its money they [TS]

  don't want your data they don't care about your data and and others do so you [TS]

  know it's it's reasonable [TS]

  I mean the argument that we talked about with Peter it's reasonable to consider [TS]

  the fact that other companies have cooperated in the past because they do [TS]

  look at the data [TS]

  you know so yeah one of the things and another one i know i mentioned earlier [TS]

  that i'm really curious about what let's just say if you're a iCloud backup user [TS]

  and the FBI comes to apple says we'd like to see Jim Dalrymple's iCloud [TS]

  backup [TS]

  what did they get I i would love to know that and if there's an answer that Apple [TS]

  is given i can couldn't find it so if anybody knows i would love to know the [TS]

  other question I have this week and it gets back to your original question of [TS]

  why is it Apple that's that's in this fight [TS]

  how come we never hear about their they're not you i get none of them are [TS]

  US companies accept other than Microsoft luton but like we never hear about [TS]

  Samsung or LG or any of these other companies like what do they do when the [TS]

  suspect has an android phone [TS]

  why is this why is this not in the news at all like what happens is it is it [TS]

  that it's it it is it just one of those things where Apple gets headlines and so [TS]

  people only write about it when it's apple in the iphone or is it is android [TS]

  different and it's you know like a trivial that even when you have a [TS]

  passcode that there's some way that they can get the information they want [TS]

  I I don't understand why nobody's writing about that and I don't have the [TS]

  you know I don't have the perspective of it [TS]

  well they're there must be some requests from the government to google for [TS]

  information must be [TS]

  oh definitely um and the thing about google but that's that's online content [TS]

  and who knows maybe it's because if you use an android phone e everybody who [TS]

  uses android phones signed up for google and going to google is enough that they [TS]

  don't need to go to the right that's what I'm saying you know that they they [TS]

  have anything though because there's things like text messages right so [TS]

  Android users send a lot of SMS text messages they don't go through google [TS]

  right so if the FBI wants to see those they need to get them off the phone and [TS]

  I can't help but think that they would want to still want to access the phone [TS]

  and I you know does what what percentage of android users back up all of their [TS]

  photos too [TS]

  google I mean there must be some percentage but is it all [TS]

  I don't know ok up I'm gonna throw something out there that making be funny [TS]

  but maybe as as we know from on the the things that we see maybe android is just [TS]

  so four holes that the FBI can hack it themselves [TS]

  yeah that's why add at that sort of what I'm hinting at you know iOS is very [TS]

  secure operating system and a lot of it because apple doesn't really care about [TS]

  your data they care about your security in your privacy and you know I'm trying [TS]

  not to be too you know Fanny here but I i believe that to be true and we we've [TS]

  seen the mall where and and things that can infect android phone so what's I [TS]

  mean I tend to think that the FBI just sat down with some with smart people and [TS]

  said Jack this thing and then they can I yeah I don't know let me take a break [TS]

  here and and we come back to it but i'll take a break here and thank our first [TS]

  sponsor and it is our good friends at Harry's go to Harry's calm and use the [TS]

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  ah so it is what i use in the shower when I wash my face and it's sort of [TS]

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  purchase well to harry's if I if I can tell you something I actually use [TS]

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  i am I have the full Harry's kit so there you go [TS]

  the true true story [TS]

  well I don't is there more to say about the FBI Apple case at the moment maybe [TS]

  not [TS]

  I i do you believe what the FBI says and do you believe what apple says I believe [TS]

  what apple says and I think they're very careful i think they are in it's just a [TS]

  hallmark of Tim Cook is is a an end i would say without question the biggest [TS]

  difference between cook and jobs is that jobs would with [TS]

  fly off the handle and you know just a small example but remember in 2007 when [TS]

  it was people first iphone came out people how can we can write native apps [TS]

  and he was he said I you don't you know you're bad you write a bad native apple [TS]

  bring down the whole west coast phone network now I there's an argument to be [TS]

  made that did you know like what if it was a super popular app like Facebook [TS]

  and what if there was a terrible bug that it [TS]

  you no-good kept the data connection on full-time if the app is installed it [TS]

  there's some you know it's not it's completely dead but it wasn't a good [TS]

  answer but that's jobs right where's Tim Cook Tim Cook is is so he's like a [TS]

  surgeon with every word out of his mouth in public [TS]

  yes and I do i believe that i don't think there's anything that Apple said [TS]

  at least an open letter that I even raised an eyebrow [TS]

  me neither I mean the only thing that I think is up for debate is whether [TS]

  qualifies as a back door and the only reason i'd say that and Tim Cook says [TS]

  you know and even admit it says in the letter the FBI is using different words [TS]

  i call it a back door but he's even acknowledging he's he's careful enough [TS]

  and fair enough that even acknowledges that there's a debate over whether [TS]

  backdoors the right word and I think that argument that it's not a backdoor [TS]

  is that a backdoor maybe you could argue is something that Apple ships to [TS]

  everybody and it's in in the phone that you buy from apple it's already there [TS]

  you know that it that this is something that the FBI and that's not what the FBI [TS]

  is asking for their not asking the FBI is not asking Apple to to push at a [TS]

  software update to every iphone out in the world that would let them bypass the [TS]

  passcode they're saying do this just one but you know given the videos at Tim [TS]

  Cook said I believe him get with the FBI i don't know i think i think one [TS]

  argument a couple people made including john mcafee come on the show ends right [TS]

  now [TS]

  come on come on you don't it's either the FBI is lying and they have hackers [TS]

  on their staff who could break in to get this passcode right now or they're [TS]

  incompetent because they should be able to like why can't they go to write down [TS]

  the street to the NSA and and have this thing unlocked and I find it very [TS]

  difficult to believe that the NSA couldn't do this and that if it was if [TS]

  this one phone really was that important that they would do that and i find that [TS]

  disingenuous that's and it's also what makes me think it's about the legal [TS]

  precedent not the actual information on the San Bernardino suspects phone so you [TS]

  you think that the NSA could hack this iphone on their own [TS]

  I don't have any reason to believe that are not that i have reasonably but i [TS]

  don't have proof i can't prove that for the obvious reason that you know what [TS]

  the NSA keeps everything all of their capabilities secret but if I had to bet [TS]

  all i would bet heavily that the NSA if you could could access the information [TS]

  on this first so why bother going through all this [TS]

  why not just going to get the president but what does the president actually [TS]

  matter if they can hack it [TS]

  well I think because going forward in the future there they're concerned about [TS]

  the ever-escalating security of these phones and I guess that's one area where [TS]

  we could talk about where you know what is one of the aspects of this is [TS]

  whatever happens to apple in the courts on this case I think it's only going to [TS]

  motivate them to further cleverly design the encryption mechanisms on the iphone [TS]

  to make it impossible in the future to even comply with a request like this [TS]

  so here's something we don't know and it's a little technical and hopefully i [TS]

  will keep this straight enough that i'm going to be accurate but the phone and [TS]

  in this case is an iphone 5c the San Bernardino phone and 5c is before the [TS]

  secure Enclave and before touch ID and that makes it a simpler case [TS]

  cryptographically to to get we're starting with the iphone 5s and going [TS]

  forward the phones iPhones with the touch ID and the secure Enclave now [TS]

  touch idea sort of irrelevant but it's the phones that have touch ID that have [TS]

  the secure Enclave they use the secure Enclave in the path of encryption to [TS]

  enforce it and so one of the things that limits the rate of so mathematically and [TS]

  you don't really have to i even i really i have a computer science degree and I [TS]

  did really well in math and I really this stuff really boggles my mind I [TS]

  could but basically one of the keys used to encrypt the data on the phone is on [TS]

  the secure Enclave and so as you know the the phone [TS]

  iOS verifies that the passcode is correct it goes through the secure [TS]

  Enclave in this year secure Enclave adds its key and there's no way to get that [TS]

  key from iOS it just says okay secure Enclave here's the pass code that was [TS]

  sent now output of that you give me the thing that lets me decrypted and it's [TS]

  the secure Enclave that in forces this 80 millisecond time between brute-force [TS]

  attempts which isn't that long except that if you want to do millions of them [TS]

  to get like a six digit passcode 80 milliseconds means it takes a lot longer [TS]

  to go through all of them than it would otherwise [TS]

  and if you use an alphanumeric password captive if you're really concerned about [TS]

  security in your phone and you use letters and numbers on the passcode it [TS]

  really does make it the 80 milliseconds attempt between decryption attempts [TS]

  really does make it timewise impossible [TS]

  the question is [TS]

  can Apple be forced to put like a flash update on the secure Enclave tote to [TS]

  eliminate the 80 millisecond time between attempts and I think Apple [TS]

  hasn't said publicly but reading between the lines I think the answer right now [TS]

  might be yes and what somebody said was that for example like the iphone 5s [TS]

  shipped with the secure Enclave and it didn't have that 80 milliseconds [TS]

  enforcement between attempts and a software update later on added it [TS]

  so if they can add something like that to secure Enclave they can obviously [TS]

  take it away [TS]

  the question is and I don't know that Apple's I don't think they want to say [TS]

  his kid knows flash updates to the secure Enclave today [TS]

  can they happen while the phone is locked because that's you know the whole [TS]

  point is if the phone is already locked [TS]

  maybe they can't flash update the secure Enclave to change the passcode right [TS]

  it's like you [TS]

  it's a catch-22 but if you can that might be something that Apple is very [TS]

  strongly looking at the future to say well now we're going to engineer we're [TS]

  going to have you know Johnny's Guruji's team engineer and secure Enclave where [TS]

  this 80 milliseconds attempt between passcode attempts is hardwired into the [TS]

  silicon and there's nothing we can do about it [TS]

  I and it's got to be other things that they're looking at going forward like I [TS]

  don't think we are at the end of apples how we secure your data on the phone i [TS]

  think the every single year I in the last five years that the system has [TS]

  gotten more clever and more completely sealed up so that even Apple can't do [TS]

  anything with it [TS]

  what if what if Apple so did they they lose this case and they say okay we will [TS]

  give you this information but then they lock up the next operating system even [TS]

  tighter so that there is no possible way I don't even know if that's possible [TS]

  right [TS]

  no I think it has to be though I definitely think it's possible to lock [TS]

  it [TS]

  tighter i think that that they could you know create it definitely create a [TS]

  system where the the the the flash beam of the rom whatever you want to call it [TS]

  the code that runs on the the secure enclosure where it can't be can't be [TS]

  updated while the phone is locked i think that's definitely technically [TS]

  technically possible i mean i could be wrong but I think it is so what does the [TS]

  government do then does it go to court and say you can't make your OS any [TS]

  stronger I and right and at that point I you know I guess they could try to pass [TS]

  the law but and they really do start running up against issues like a that [TS]

  would cripple us tech companies competitively worldwide absolutely would [TS]

  be the crippling I mean who would want the US tech product if if they knew that [TS]

  by mandated by US law that it had to be you know insecure and be i think that [TS]

  there's a very strong constitutional argument that that's a violation of free [TS]

  speech you know that that code is speech and saying you can't write code that [TS]

  that does this is you know it's more or less saying that this you know this form [TS]

  of mathematics is illegal [TS]

  oh what a case i really do think it comes down to a sense of entitlement on [TS]

  law enforcement that they feel like any any information that exists they should [TS]

  be able to access and they they're unwilling to wrap their heads around the [TS]

  idea that there's that were coming to a point where there will exist information [TS]

  in the universe that they simply can't get I mean that i keep thinking and [TS]

  again this isn't really a legal arguments to sort of a philosophical [TS]

  argument but they've never had a right to the information in your head and in [TS]

  fact the US Constitution US Constitution as the the Fifth Amendment which means [TS]

  that you have a right not to incriminate yourself and so the you know if you [TS]

  invoke it that you know even if you committed a crime [TS]

  you cannot be forced to admit it in court [TS]

  in some sense again this is not speaking legally but philosophically the [TS]

  information on your phone is in some way an extension of what's in your head [TS]

  right like the pictures you've taken our things you've seen that you want to [TS]

  remember the notes you've written yourself or your your notes [TS]

  ah I just don't think it's that outlandish philosophically that you [TS]

  could have a phone that is so securely encrypted that if if law enforcement [TS]

  takes it that they can't access it any more so than that they don't have a [TS]

  right to go read your mind or force you to to testify against yourself how long [TS]

  this case go on [TS]

  I don't know I can't help but think it's I this particular case who knows but I [TS]

  feel like the the argument isn't going to stop like even if this case gets [TS]

  resolved some how quickly it's the next one coming is is is going to be the same [TS]

  i I'm believe that this will go all the way to the Supreme Court because I don't [TS]

  think either side we'll just let it fall but if they lose if the government loses [TS]

  this case will they try a different tactic mean is there another legal way [TS]

  for them to say okay well we argued that this last time but now we are doing this [TS]

  I mean is this going to go on forever [TS]

  I I i don't know i mean it may be you know i mean one thing we didn't mention [TS]

  is that the that the the the foundation of the FBI's request and the judge that [TS]

  the judge granted against apple is based on a the all writs Act of 1789 right [TS]

  yeah it's so basing this on a law from 1789 would suggest that the law really [TS]

  didn't have encrypted cell phones in mind [TS]

  so how long lost or damaged it so that two of the things that I've taken away [TS]

  this week is that one if if the FBI wins this sort of grants them under this [TS]

  already [TS]

  president that says we can get whatever we you know we can use this ancient law [TS]

  to get whatever we want and we have this very powerful ability to force tech [TS]

  companies to help us you know by writing new code and and stuff like that so that [TS]

  would be good for the FBI from their perspective I don't think that's good [TS]

  public policy I think that's terrible but from the law enforcement perspective [TS]

  that would be they would see that as a win and I think if they lose this is why [TS]

  I almost feel like the FBI might see this as a no-lose situation is if they [TS]

  lose then they go to Congress and say look the law on the book we just tried [TS]

  it we have to you know they go to they go to the Congress and they say we have [TS]

  to be able to get this stuff to keep people safe from these crazy terrorists [TS]

  that's very compelling to a lot of politicians who either believe it or be [TS]

  cowardly you know it just don't want to be seen in on the wrong side of [TS]

  terrorism right of beings quote-unquote strong against terrorism and they go to [TS]

  Congress and say look we just fried with this law that's on the books and it we [TS]

  lost so we need you to pass a new law that says blah about you know encryption [TS]

  and and stuff like that and i think the only good solution for us publicly would [TS]

  be if if that fails to but I feel like the FBI might suspect that they've got [TS]

  that the support on in Congress to do that here's a question for you i wanted [TS]

  to ask before we move off it is this does being a Canadian give you a [TS]

  different perspective on this because I feel like Americans are often too [TS]

  insular and we see these things as us only issues and just simply being on the [TS]

  other side of the us-canadian border does it give you a different perspective [TS]

  you know it's we we don't really have a lot of things like this that would come [TS]

  up you know I I can't see the canadian government suing apple you know it's [TS]

  just it [TS]

  it's just not something that doesn't give did you have a sense that you don't [TS]

  have liked him but implicit trust of the US Department of Justice I know I I [TS]

  don't think it's I don't think it's that I think we're more or more trusting [TS]

  then what you guys are of your government we may not likely [TS]

  you know our government will put in new taxes which they do all the time and we [TS]

  just allen bosh turning that's awful but you know we paid that's fine you know [TS]

  where you guys me Brian like no no you're not gonna do that [TS]

  the thing I keep thinking about too is just that it the stuff is all so new [TS]

  it's only 20 25 years that anybody really you know public you know typical [TS]

  people had access to computers and computer networking and law enforcement [TS]

  work just fine before that it's just it's not like everything that they used [TS]

  to be able to do before their cell phones that they night they can't do [TS]

  anymore it's just new information and new a new source of evidence that that [TS]

  they have had access to but if they don't have access to it if they can't [TS]

  get anything they want off an iphone that has a strong passcode on it i don't [TS]

  think that that means that law enforcement can't do its job well and [TS]

  then but the difference between then and now is that then the bad guys weren't [TS]

  using cell phones either so there were they were recording information in [TS]

  different ways that that the government could have access to what you know so if [TS]

  they're if they're now using the cell phones to record all of their [TS]

  information and the government can access that then that you know there is [TS]

  an argument that they don't have access like they used to but you know i'm still [TS]

  drawn back to to what you said about the NSA does if the NSA has access and this [TS]

  seems like a dangerous move for the government to do for a precedent that [TS]

  they might not need [TS]

  you know and I don't know it could be it could be a bad move if they can get it i [TS]

  mean i don't understand why they just wouldn't say and whatever you know you [TS]

  don't need to give us that we've got access any way to anything that we want [TS]

  I really don't think that they do [TS]

  ok could the iphone be that good that they don't know it's it you know you [TS]

  never know what the n.o in the end of the NSA knows of a flaw in the scheme [TS]

  they're going to keep their mouths shut about it but it's it does seem to me [TS]

  that Apple is moving towards creating a complete system that can you know can [TS]

  mathematically be shown that it can't be can't be broken with the combination of [TS]

  you know with the secure Enclave and when and with all the various ways that [TS]

  the keys are stored to to get everything encrypted or unencrypted boy wearing for [TS]

  how long do you think that this initial part will take is this i got a $MONEY a [TS]

  month thing or I don't know i have a yeah I guess I know apples been given [TS]

  tulle fabric we're recording on februari 19 and I know they have like one week to [TS]

  file their response so i think you know a couple of months i'm guessing i'll [TS]

  take this break in the show and thank our second sponsor and it's our good [TS]

  friends at Squarespace you can go to / the talk show and find [TS]

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  templates that help you create the online home that you've always wanted [TS]

  that's a multi-page deeper website they have so many templates to choose from [TS]

  it's ridiculous they look so professional any kind of new website [TS]

  that you want to create you really ought to look at Squarespace first and give it [TS]

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  alright what about my interview last week with the Federation q2 it i did i [TS]

  did actually it was it was great I I thought and I thought it was a great [TS]

  interview and you know you got some scoops in there too was all yeah I [TS]

  wasn't expecting that [TS]

  it's like they didn't say hey we're going to give you some stuff it's like [TS]

  when when any stress head saying that I really kind of expect I was like am i [TS]

  listening am i hearing this right that you're giving me this information that [TS]

  I'm pretty sure never came out before I was ready to hear and like get like a [TS]

  punch in the shoulder from like I thought it was really good interview [TS]

  they were they were very open and and it you know it kind of seemed like just [TS]

  three guys sitting around chatting well that's definitely the case i mean in the [TS]

  argument against it would be and it seemed like you know I worried [TS]

  afterwards that maybe I didn't ask good enough questions I hard questions maybe [TS]

  the wrong term to use but maybe I that I didn't press quite hard enough i really [TS]

  was worried afterwards and then the show came out and I read all the reactions i [TS]

  read all the emails i read all the tweets and most people seem to really [TS]

  like it but there were definitely some people are like dude you asked this [TS]

  question and they didn't give a straight answer and you didn't press him on it [TS]

  and your eyes gonna have that though you mean you and I've been doing this long [TS]

  enough to know that no matter what we ask but people are going to react like [TS]

  that and my take on it is well at least I asked and I thought even the ones that [TS]

  they didn't answer straightforwardly they at least they weren't there their [TS]

  answers weren't completely empty [TS]

  you know and and I know that they're you know it they're both surprisingly good [TS]

  this is the thing that blows me away it'sit's is for two people who don't do [TS]

  podcast regularly I know [TS]

  federighi was on the show back in December to talk about Swift I don't [TS]

  know that eq I don't know these ever done a podcast before I've seen him on [TS]

  interviews like a tree code or something like that but he doesn't do it a lot [TS]

  but it's a they came across as like naturals right yeah and I know that [TS]

  there's no way that if they're not going to answer the first time they're not [TS]

  going to answer if I if I reinsert it and then all of a sudden it the [TS]

  discussion loses the the flow [TS]

  yeah well I i think that you've got a lot of great information i think that [TS]

  yes [TS]

  yes [TS]

  I I mean I text to do when i listen to it last week and and said you know is [TS]

  great interview it was informative it was you know entertaining so you [TS]

  actually got a lot more than what i would have suspected I the one thing [TS]

  that I think is interesting is the it goes beyond any words that actually came [TS]

  out of either of their mouth is the fact that the interview happened at all shows [TS]

  that Apple definitely cares about this whole perception of apple software being [TS]

  in decline right or being are having less Karen thought put into it than [TS]

  their hardware and that Apple at the fact that the interview happened at all [TS]

  shows that Apple wants to counter that which I thought was interesting and so [TS]

  any sort of you know thought that apple doesn't pay attention to these [TS]

  discussions you know a on the outside I i think it's clear that they do up to [TS]

  that very highest levels of the company [TS]

  yeah i agree i mean i've interviewed any before never interviewed Craig but [TS]

  interviewed any before and you know me a he's a great guy i really like getting [TS]

  and you know I didn't I think their personalities came across in the [TS]

  interview that you gave I mean yeah it's great to get the the information but [TS]

  they could have been you know what blankets and the interview too and it [TS]

  would have been very difficult and then you know maybe that's when you start [TS]

  asking the questions just no answer this one question if there is one and it's [TS]

  always the case that there's always at least one it's like it's all over like [TS]

  it stopped and the recording is over and I think that's great and immediately I [TS]

  like oh I knew the one question I wanted [TS]

  this is I really wanted to ask Eddie and I can't believe I forgot it or just it [TS]

  was in my notes but it just never seemed to come up in the flow is I wanted to [TS]

  ask Eddie if he himself has ever hit the bug where your iphone or your iOS device [TS]

  could be iphone could be ipad but your iOS device starts asking you for your [TS]

  iCloud password and you enter it and then it like a second goes by and then [TS]

  it comes the same dialogue comes back up and then you enter it and it goes away [TS]

  just long enough that you think okay its stock and then it comes back and it [TS]

  doesn't say your password was incorrect and like when it when it when I hit this [TS]

  you know and I think everybody's part of the same way where you can kind of enter [TS]

  your iCloud password pretty fast and go do it and then this when you hit this [TS]

  bug which I know exists i just you know I've seen firsthand I know other people [TS]

  talk about it but then like by the third time you start entering your password [TS]

  very very carefully [TS]

  yeah you like me like you do one character at a time and finger and you [TS]

  actually look at the pop-up letters as they come [TS]

  and then you hit return and then it goes away and you think oh that's all the end [TS]

  then then it comes back up i wanted to ask any that and I didn't and damn it I [TS]

  really regret it [TS]

  were you satisfied with the with the way that the conversation went to meet ya i [TS]

  dont really was i I worry deeply about it because I I don't feel like being in [TS]

  that role of interviewing people like that it is comes naturally to me so I [TS]

  mean I I stressed don't I hope it didn't sound that way but I stress greatly [TS]

  about it before [TS]

  no it didn't sound that way and he said I thought it was a really entertaining [TS]

  interview I think that implicit in their response to the issue of the software [TS]

  you know being in decline is that I thought one of the most interesting [TS]

  answers to that was Craig federighi said that the bar is being raised its higher [TS]

  than ever and then that's in terms of expectations that we have for how [TS]

  reliable everything will work and how polished everything will be [TS]

  I thought that was it you know again is it's sort of a non-answer [TS]

  maybe but I think it's an interesting way of looking at it and that we [TS]

  collectively see these problems now simply because we have higher higher [TS]

  expectations [TS]

  ok so let's let's look at that [TS]

  why do we have higher expectations i think it's because Apple gives us higher [TS]

  expectations you know where we're not I don't think that we as consumers are [TS]

  saying Apple you know your your software is awful it it seems to me more that [TS]

  Apple is saying you know when they do events and stuff [TS]

  our software is great and ninety-nine percent of the time it really is great [TS]

  but then when that one percent hits it's like okay this assistance so great I so [TS]

  are we just holding apple up to their own of words and and what they say about [TS]

  their software or are we being unfair and saying now iphone i don't think we [TS]

  are being unfair and I think that it's it is central to the entire reason [TS]

  Apple's own you know there's a lot of times where we're in other cases where [TS]

  Apple seems to be held [TS]

  he either by a publication or just one individual pundit or somebody to an [TS]

  unreasonably high standard that other companies are held to and I call them [TS]

  out sometimes you call them out you know other you know and mac elope calls them [TS]

  out all the time [TS]

  this is a case though where I think Apple itself asks to be held to a higher [TS]

  standard right that Apple itself proclaims that our products because we [TS]

  do the hope you know this is their story that because we do the whole thing we [TS]

  control the software and the hardware integration between them we provide an [TS]

  overall better experience then [TS]

  our competitors who don't have that whole you know software and hardware [TS]

  story to tell [TS]

  they say that that's the Apple story right and I've long thought that that's [TS]

  the you know that the can Apple succeed in the long run at yes but i think that [TS]

  the only way they succeed in the long run is by continually providing a better [TS]

  overall experience you know and and blurring the lines between hardware and [TS]

  software and i think that overall they've done a great job with that you [TS]

  know even even when you look at the integration between devices [TS]

  I mean not just the integration between hardware and software but the [TS]

  integration between ipad Mac iPhone you know that handoff and and I message [TS]

  being everywhere and you know all that kind of stuff I I that makes the devices [TS]

  more useful for me [TS]

  Oh tremendously for me but it's I feel like that's one of those things that [TS]

  where there's you know for so many I handoff works great for me and I do it [TS]

  all the time where I'll be like walking around the house making coffee or [TS]

  something and reading something on my phone and I want to link to it from [TS]

  daring fireball but why not just wait till I get to my desk and do it from my [TS]

  imac we have a nice keyboard and all i do is just sit down at my desk while the [TS]

  phone is still open and right there at the side of my doc is the little hand [TS]

  off you know Safari thing so i click one button and you know a second later the [TS]

  webpage that was on my phone is now I click one button on on my mac and that [TS]

  thing on my phone is now on my I think my phone is now on my Mac yeah and it [TS]

  works great from but with you know a 700 million I cloud users is there you know [TS]

  are there a million of them for whom that doesn't work for reasons they don't [TS]

  understand you know is is 99.9 percent of people having it work good enough [TS]

  how do you know and how do you solve it for them that the last ten percent well [TS]

  i think you know one thing then that we all know is that there's always going to [TS]

  be problems and bugs with software you know and and [TS]

  more accepting of that I i really believe that we are accepting of that [TS]

  and you know if you look at something like iCloud people I quad is is a [TS]

  favorite one of the favorite whipping horses of of people for me Ike works [TS]

  great i called services work great and I think a lot of it comes down to how we [TS]

  use it so i use iCloud more like more like God I got consumer you know [TS]

  yeah and I'll give one example that i know i know i'm not alone with is the [TS]

  sinking of the text shortcuts so in other words the black if you set up in [TS]

  like a text the way that OS 10 and iOS have like a text at a simple text [TS]

  expander like system where you can have a little shortcut like you type addr and [TS]

  then expands to your full address i was bedeviled for months with an inability [TS]

  they're supposed to sync between devices and four months I was absolutely [TS]

  bedeviled by sinking problems between them [TS]

  we're just all sorts of craziness would happen where they'd be doubled where [TS]

  they all of a sudden none of them are on my phone and sometimes online [TS]

  I mean anything that could go wrong went wrong all of a sudden my Mac went back [TS]

  two or one of my max would go back to like the default ones that the ship when [TS]

  it's brand-new and I think I I'd think that what happened was that it had the [TS]

  problems initially happened for me when I was running the iOS 9 beta last summer [TS]

  my own and that something got corrupted in my icloud account that even after iOS [TS]

  came out of iOS 9 came out of beta that something was wrong with those two [TS]

  keyboard shortcuts or text shortcuts whatever they call them and then four [TS]

  months afterwards it was all messed up and eventually though it just it got [TS]

  fixed lag end of it [TS]

  knock on wood but for like the last few months [TS]

  it just works and I've even like doubted myself and just gone there and [TS]

  painstakingly i beheld my phone up to my mac and scroll both lists to make sure [TS]

  that there's not like I just know there's gonna be one missing and I get [TS]

  to the bottom and be like damn they're all there and they're all the same and [TS]

  so I you know I don't know who knows how that happen who knows if it fixed itself [TS]

  who knows if somebody at Apple fixed a bug figured it out and did it but even [TS]

  when stuff like that happens and again I don't want to be seen here as as a [TS]

  wholly on Apple side of this argument but i do think though that that it's [TS]

  easy for somebody who's experienced the same thing to look at the syncing [TS]

  between those texture cuts as buggy because i was buggy and to overlook the [TS]

  fact that it's not buggy right now I know security Syracuse is always talk on [TS]

  ATP that heat he can't get his addresses to sink right yeah and i gotta tell you [TS]

  i have i have not had a problem with address sinking in iCloud at ever i mean [TS]

  i've been using it since it was called you know I tools or whatever it usable [TS]

  format home maybe back then maybe back then I had some i don't know i didn't [TS]

  even have an iphone back then so I don't know what I was thinking it too so maybe [TS]

  I wouldn't even know what if i had some problems but at least in recent years [TS]

  my address is definitely sink and they sink fast I yeah I don't have problems [TS]

  with calendars with contacts I don't have problems thinking any of that stuff [TS]

  i don't have problems with iCloud Drive you know it sinks I mean you could you [TS]

  could reasonably make the argument should I call dr be more like Dropbox [TS]

  and II short time but looking at the service as it is I don't have problems [TS]

  with how works and you know when the the problems that we do have like this [TS]

  password thing just seem to be so bizarre it is it is it something that's [TS]

  you know it can't be unique to to just one person obviously because a lot of [TS]

  people have a butt is a unique to set up i don't know you know [TS]

  so I you know I think that they're getting there [TS]

  I think that's the gist of it I do worry i do worry that one of the reasons and I [TS]

  I just don't think it's deniable [TS]

  I mean this is the bike when the whole thing that started this new round of [TS]

  Apple softwares is not as good as it used to be or not as good as it should [TS]

  be however way you want to phrase it started with mossberg solemn and then [TS]

  the same day you and I both wrote about it in my take is that that my angle was [TS]

  that one thing I think is undeniable is that it is true that the software is not [TS]

  as good as the hardware but maybe that's just the way it has to be because the [TS]

  hardware is is in some ways simpler and that it's certain aspects of the [TS]

  hardware half to be bug free like you can't there's no way that they can do a [TS]

  software upgrade of the camera lens okay yeah and so the requirements of that and [TS]

  and so the hare said there's another argument this is it is does the ability [TS]

  to do software updates make apple way and anybody else who can do them make [TS]

  them lazy about shipping quote you know be quality software because they know [TS]

  they can make it a quality software over the air or they think they can wear as [TS]

  you know is it different than any old days where the software had to be [TS]

  printed on a CD or DVD or if you want to go back further floppy disks and if [TS]

  there was a bug that bug might never get fixed by the by the consumer because [TS]

  software updates were so hard to distribute I get used to be a big big [TS]

  deal to ship the gold master of of pieces off [TS]

  oh yeah was huge and and not that like an OS update still isn't taken seriously [TS]

  or or or you know that there's all sorts of you know rigorous quality-control [TS]

  that it goes through but it's not like it used to be when when hard software [TS]

  went through an actual you know effectively it be turned into hardware [TS]

  when you put it on it on a disc that's right yeah well I and III think that you [TS]

  know for a lot of developers they do think i'll release this now and I can [TS]

  fix it but I mean we we we know too that there are [TS]

  you can't account for every configuration and you know the the mac [TS]

  app store i think has done a lot to to help with every app is going to work at [TS]

  least you have that feeling you know these are tested we know they're good [TS]

  and we put them out there for sale on the mac app store so that helps all [TS]

  night and in the appstore helps a lot i think it's great that Apple has the [TS]

  review process that they do with all of the stuff i wonder if some of the Apple [TS]

  software could construe the review process sometimes well I wouldn't have a [TS]

  lot of stuff that doesn't you know it doesn't follow the sandboxing rules [TS]

  wouldn't ya [TS]

  although a lot about it today I say that but i know that a lot of that most of [TS]

  apples you know own first party apps our sandbox so it's it's not entirely but [TS]

  they don't you know if they need to they don't mind giving themselves an [TS]

  exemption I thought an interesting angle and i get i don't know if i was [TS]

  satisfied with the answer from craig but on the issue of is Apple shifting away [TS]

  from monolithic feature updates for os's in other words i think for the last few [TS]

  years all the major new features of OS 10 and iOS have been announced at WWDC [TS]

  and then they all ship it in the fall when the release versions come out and [TS]

  every once in a while they'll be one that maybe waits until the next release [TS]

  like remember they're a think like two years ago there was a keychain something [TS]

  related to the keychain and it wasn't in the initial versions of either OS book [TS]

  but it came out like in the November updates and it was something there was [TS]

  some kind of bug with a keychain feature but for the most part they're all [TS]

  announced at WTC and they all come out in the fall at once and then Apple [TS]

  spends the next six months fixing bugs and those os's before they turn their [TS]

  attention to next year's os's and are they moving away from that sort of let's [TS]

  do all the features at once to a more let's keep working on these features in [TS]

  parallel and then when they're ready then we'll ship them like with the [TS]

  seemingly imminent iOS 9 . [TS]

  three which is now in public beta which has maybe not huge features but some [TS]

  significant features yeah the efflux thing with the influx like feature with [TS]

  the night shift color palette and maybe the most significant one for a smaller [TS]

  number of users but for those who applies to this very City to really [TS]

  major update to the OS is the way that for education purposes iPads can have [TS]

  multiple users now and you could have any students sign into any ipad that's [TS]

  the sort of feature that you typically would only come in a major you know . o [TS]

  release of the OS [TS]

  I can't help but think that common sense says that while marketing-wise that's [TS]

  less powerful because you can't just announce all this stuff at once that [TS]

  from a quality perspective letting these features come out naturally when they're [TS]

  ready even if it's in the . 3 update to the major version of the OS is is but [TS]

  you know common senses that just seems like it's a better process for quality [TS]

  and I don't mind a smaller feature updates i really don't i I just want [TS]

  things to be secure and stable that's that's my main thing that's what I want [TS]

  from them [TS]

  yeah and I wonder how much you know how much do they need the OS and major OS [TS]

  updates to have big marketing type features you know I mean obviously [TS]

  they're always going to have some but how much do you need 10 tentpole [TS]

  features in an OS update is is it is that it you know maybe that's an [TS]

  outdated way of looking at an operating system i think it is you know that it's [TS]

  really more you know it's enough to just say you know come this fall and they're [TS]

  announced new iPhones to just talk about what's new in the iPhone itself here's [TS]

  this new camera that does blah blah blah and here's how much better it is than [TS]

  the old camera and here is how much faster graphics performance is compared [TS]

  to last year which lets you do these amazing things like a play this game and [TS]

  do this stuff like isn't that enough [TS]

  like it rather than then you know and and and let the engineers who are [TS]

  working on iOS focus on just continually crossing off every little niggling [TS]

  little bug that that's bothering people [TS]

  alright well i think that we need something you know it's always nice when [TS]

  when apple announces a new iphone that you know you can now do panoramic [TS]

  pictures and you know we have this great camera and and the fact is people rely [TS]

  on on that camera but that's time that's a good example though it's obviously the [TS]

  panoramic camera thing is obviously software because it's you know it but [TS]

  it's also hardware right it's it it wasn't like they could have done it [TS]

  without your camera it was tied to it you know it's you know it's very [TS]

  specific to the to the camera in the phone so I I brought up three points in [TS]

  the article that I did on on the software of why some of the the bad [TS]

  software bad things happen [TS]

  one was that they knew about it and released it anyway [TS]

  who was that they didn't know they were given a date release by you know at [TS]

  first that's it [TS]

  what do you think it is well I definitely think that that's part of the [TS]

  it's part of why i think the monolithic really schedule is problematic is that [TS]

  the the iphones have to come out in September and I mean I i say have to in [TS]

  a way that if they didn't if something truly catastrophic happened to the [TS]

  supply chain you know I natural disaster in Asia something truly catastrophic and [TS]

  apple literally added it has you know calls a meeting in you know late august [TS]

  and says well we have to postpone the iphone 7 launch until January [TS]

  it's not going to sink the company i mean it's it's bad for him it would [TS]

  definitely be bad for the company i'm sure would be bad for their stock but I [TS]

  a but I you know to keep everything according to plan the iphone has to come [TS]

  out in September and if the new iPhone comes out in September iOS 10 has to [TS]

  come out in September because the new iphone and you know are always [TS]

  engineered such that they need the newest version of the operating system [TS]

  and therefore i will I OS you know whatever this year's new version number [TS]

  is come hell or high water is shipping in the middle of September and that's [TS]

  how it is and that's why I feel like the more features you're promising for that [TS]

  release the more risk there is that some of them are not going to be you know [TS]

  fully baked well and and didn't we see that and you talked about it last week [TS]

  with with Craig and a boat apple TV [TS]

  I mean there are new features coming over apple TV that just didn't make it [TS]

  right in the in the software [TS]

  yeah and you know does that mean that they should have postponed the release [TS]

  of the app of the new Apple TV I think definitely not i think right as they [TS]

  released it was a compelling out upgrade and a compelling device but that's just [TS]

  the nature of it you know but isn't I think there's the big difference between [TS]

  releasing software that's missing features and Apple never says it can do [TS]

  this in a can two releasing software that apple says it'll do this and it [TS]

  doesn't right yeah I definitely think so anyway here's an example so maybe this [TS]

  is the way that I if I could Bend Phil Schiller and Tim Cook's year and Craig's [TS]

  ear on on this take a look at it compared it to the release of photos [TS]

  from mac which was announced at WWDC but without they just said early next year [TS]

  and i think it had a very good launch I think photos from Mac to complete the [TS]

  cert and iCloud photo library and complete this circle of ok now you put [TS]

  you all of your photos [TS]

  on all of your devices that are signed in to iCloud in a in a storage sensitive [TS]

  way so that you know if you have thousands of photos you have the option [TS]

  of whether you want the full version on any particular device it all worked [TS]

  really well but I think part of that was that they didn't promise that date and [TS]

  say that [TS]

  come hell or high water it's going to ship on this date right like i would [TS]

  like to see more features at WWDC and api's announced as this is coming within [TS]

  the next year you know and and if it's not in iOS 10.04 have to wait till 10.1 [TS]

  that so be it [TS]

  I agree and I do think you had a strong . i definitely think you had a strong [TS]

  point that there are some cases where Apple has ship stuff where it's it just [TS]

  seems inexcusable like you had to know that this was not ready to ship right [TS]

  and and that's that's where I wonder you know that it seems obvious that you knew [TS]

  that this didn't work and if if you want to release software like that then [TS]

  release it is as beta say you know we have this this new thing and we're going [TS]

  to release it today as public beta we looking forward to your feedback and if [TS]

  that's the case then I i think the whole conversation changes on whether the [TS]

  software is good or not because you know I i I've been running beta software for [TS]

  os's and for things like that i never write about it because it's not fair to [TS]

  write about beta software like that right but as soon as you come to me and [TS]

  say this software is ready you can do all of these great and wonderful things [TS]

  and you know where we're proud to announce and release it today and then [TS]

  it doesn't or you know not just that it doesn't but that it has major bugs [TS]

  which brings us to the next segment of the show where we can we should talk [TS]

  about itunes and Apple music with I put gets you after thanking our final [TS]

  sponsor ah and it's our good friends at fracture you guys no fracture there the [TS]

  company that prints your photos directly onto glass you've got photos in your [TS]

  iphone you've got photos on whatever the cameras you have you put them on [TS]

  Instagram you put them in photos on your mac setup the flickr well how about [TS]

  getting them somewhere where they're not just ones and zeros and putting them [TS]

  onto a real analog print that you can hang on the wall that you can put on [TS]

  your desk [TS]

  there's no better way to do that then through fraktur where instead of printed [TS]

  on paper and then you've got this piece of paper that you've got to some help us [TS]

  perfectly align with in a rectangular frame and the pain-in-the-ass of you [TS]

  know opening those little clips on the back of the frame and getting them back [TS]

  in there without having the photo fall two degrees off parallel forget it with [TS]

  fracture your picture is printed right on the glass itself and it looks super [TS]

  cool it's super beautiful it goes edge-to-edge and they ship with [TS]

  everything you need to hang them on the wall including the screw to put in a [TS]

  wall right there in the package really clever packaging really high quality [TS]

  printing and a really really just super cool effect when you actually see them [TS]

  on the wall [TS]

  I you know people who know you start hanging up if they've ever heard a [TS]

  fracture i guess it's a fracture and if they don't they're going to say like how [TS]

  did you do that is just how does have you know what is this and then you're [TS]

  going to end up giving a pitch like this on fracture to to your friends and it's [TS]

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  them being our sponsors and then being really cool things to to buy as gifts to [TS]

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  out online and remember that code talk show 10 and you'll save some bucks I so [TS]

  that brings us to itunes mm which was i again i think that's one thing that on [TS]

  twitter people called me out for not pressing any Q hard enough on but on the [TS]

  other hand I felt like he acknowledged that it's on the table that maybe on the [TS]

  desktop that itunes should be broken up like it is on on iOS and have separate [TS]

  apps for playing music for managing device updates for you know I mean it's [TS]

  good just kind of ridiculous what itunes on the desktop does you know how much [TS]

  stuff it's it's required to do well and you can see why they don't want to mess [TS]

  with it because it processes you know billions of dollars in transactions [TS]

  right now and it's actually used a lot i think it was in one of the numbers that [TS]

  was dropped in that interview last week was that there's a hundred million [TS]

  people who stole update and sink their device through you a USB cable the other [TS]

  items so mean that I mean a hundred million users is a real number i mean [TS]

  yep and i can understand that and for the record you know I know that I've [TS]

  been very outspoken about Apple music and the problems that I've had with it i [TS]

  use Apple music all the time every day i use Apple music and it has gotten really [TS]

  really good [TS]

  it really has Eddie and his team i think i've done a tremendous job in fixing a [TS]

  lot of the the errors and problems that Apple music head which brings me back to [TS]

  the point of at what point is apple released software knowing that it's it [TS]

  doesn't work that well you know was Apple music one of those because when [TS]

  you start using it you can see we're all the [TS]

  flaws were all right did it did it wasn't released dictated by the quality [TS]

  of the software was released dictated by when the negotiating rights opened up [TS]

  right and I i tend to think that it was the release was was based on a date not [TS]

  on the quality of the software because what we see now with the quality of the [TS]

  software i would have been extremely happy with what specific things do you [TS]

  think are better now then then then in the past year because you've been I mean [TS]

  without i would say almost without question one of the leading critics of [TS]

  of Apple music in terms of bugginess and inconsistency in and confusion [TS]

  well and it's the bulkiness and inconsistency isn't just on iphone it's [TS]

  on Mac it's on apple TV you know and I i think if you look at the service overall [TS]

  everything has gotten better [TS]

  the app is getting better uh the the the station's the algorithm that they use [TS]

  for the for their radio stations has gotten better [TS]

  the the curated stations have gotten better [TS]

  everything has gotten better there are still bugs in the software and and [TS]

  people people have to accuse me of looking for for bugs [TS]

  I don't have time in my day to look for bugs [TS]

  I can't really don't so iíve told apple that no reason that I'm able to find [TS]

  these bugs is because i use it so much [TS]

  that's it that's the the only reason that I can I I find them when I find [TS]

  them i tell them about you know here's what it's funny I know it's gotta be the [TS]

  same for you but it always amuses me when like two emails in a row or maybe [TS]

  two tweets in a row just back-to-back and it's the fact that their [TS]

  back-to-back that makes it so amusing where there's one accusing you being an [TS]

  apples pocket [TS]

  yeah well one accusing you of unfairly criticizing apple just looking for [TS]

  things to take over the exact same thing that you wrote [TS]

  yeah well yeah it's true it's true it happens and I [TS]

  what I'm not even sure that that Apple recognizes this but the reason that I'm [TS]

  so upset or I was so upset about Apple music is because I care about it so much [TS]

  well and it also seemed like some of your initial problems were were data [TS]

  loss which is sort of the Cardinal you know like there's all sorts of things [TS]

  that are forgivable in bugs and data loss is like high up on the list of ones [TS]

  that are unforgivable well you are designed systems ideally such that data [TS]

  never gets lost an end to be to be fair and open on to apple here the data loss [TS]

  came from a misunderstanding of what I new itunes match to do so apparently i [TS]

  deleted the song some of my own songs and not knowing that the way that iTunes [TS]

  Match work had changed so the songs weren't there but they were there and [TS]

  then some of the other ones i deleted but I i just i don't think that the way [TS]

  that they implemented itunes matches the service in Apple music was a a good [TS]

  thing to do because they before you could turn you could see with itunes [TS]

  match you can see your purchase music and your your your uploaded music and [TS]

  you're matched music so i could turn off apple music and and or I could you know [TS]

  use itunes match on all my devices and basically see all my music but when they [TS]

  implemented Apple music they made itunes match part of my club music library so [TS]

  if i wanted to get rid of iCloud music library and just see my itunes match [TS]

  there was no way to do that but i didn't know that you know so that and it gets [TS]

  to my complaint with it is that in some ways I think what makes me in this too [TS]

  critical software is that on kind of an idiot and I really have cognitive [TS]

  problems with complex software i really i really think i do i just need it to be [TS]

  obviously not necessarily simple but i need it to be obvious and I really feel [TS]

  like I could try to get their last week with with federighi and Q but that i [TS]

  really like what they did with photos for mac and it and as I say this knowing [TS]

  that i know that there are people out there who really missed some folks [TS]

  features from iphoto that aren't in photos for mac but i really like it [TS]

  because I really when I open photos from Mac it's not that there aren't other [TS]

  features i wish that they would add back and it's not like I feel like especially [TS]

  in terms of editing images I really and I you know I just feel like it's coming [TS]

  and it this is how it's going to evolve in the years to come but i really like [TS]

  that I open it up and I understand where everything is and in a way that if they [TS]

  had tried to glom it into iphoto I don't know it would have worked [TS]

  whereas with I itunes I just really feel like by continuing to build on the same [TS]

  foundation that was the original itunes from a decade ago they've wound up with [TS]

  something that's just confusing and itunes match is a perfect example of [TS]

  that where I understand when they first came out with itunes match i understood [TS]

  what was meant to do and it sound appealing and i paid $MONEY for it and i [TS]

  stoled I guess I still do pay for it but now that they have apple music I just [TS]

  feel like it's too much [TS]

  I feel like there should be just like two things [TS]

  here's your music which you have copies of right here on your on your computer [TS]

  and you can sync them to your other devices if you want and then if you want [TS]

  to pay us to have access to you know music I got as on a subscription basis [TS]

  that's Apple music I kind of feel like iTunes Match should just go away we'll [TS]

  see I i really liked itunes match because then I could have one copy of my [TS]

  music on on my computer and then I could just use itunes match and not take up [TS]

  space on my device you know my iphone or my iPad I could just use itunes match [TS]

  and get a whole quiet library but when they when they change that [TS]

  m and rolled it into my club music library i'm basically paying for a [TS]

  service that it doesn't do what [TS]

  did you know in my mind they kind of took away a feature but are still [TS]

  charging me for that feature you know so but if i look at an apple music today [TS]

  right now I was using it this morning before we we did this and if i look at [TS]

  the app and the service it's something that i would recommend I i think it's [TS]

  it's great and i use it i use the radio more now than what i've ever used radio [TS]

  before I mean I was a big fan of Pandora because I think pandora had the best [TS]

  algorithmic radio of service out there better than Spotify better than apples [TS]

  better than everybody but apples is getting really really good [TS]

  so the way that i use radio is all pick a song and guns and roses so pick sweet [TS]

  child of mine are welcome to the jungle [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  and i'll say make a station based on this song and what i expect here from [TS]

  that station is basically hit after hit after it [TS]

  nothing but hits for as long as I play that station and I i I'll use that when [TS]

  i go for a drive or you know what I'm doing something that I just want to hear [TS]

  you know I have people over and I pick a song I want to hear other songs like [TS]

  that and nothing but hits and for a while what you were getting from from [TS]

  the radio stations was and this is even before Apple music you were getting [TS]

  kinda like the the the best of the b-sides that nobody ever wanted to hear [TS]

  and I would just be skipping through song saying what is this why are you [TS]

  playing and you know that's that's what you ended up with that's not the case [TS]

  anymore now I'm hearing a lot of great songs you know just and and that's great [TS]

  so what I also use the hardrock channel but the pre-done curated hardrock [TS]

  channel and Apple music and it's gotten really really really good and I use that [TS]

  for discovery and I i have added so many songs to my library from the hardrock [TS]

  channel that you know I'll be listening to songs and hearing new music and say [TS]

  that's pretty good and I'll reach over and tap the the heart button so hard [TS]

  that and then you know two or three days later I'll be you know listening to the [TS]

  hard rock channel that's own well we'll come on again and I'll to Jesus pretty [TS]

  good i'll reach over it hit the heart button and I'll have already heard it so [TS]

  i said well i need to add that to my library and I'll go in and add that song [TS]

  sometimes I have the whole album but i'll have that song to my library and [TS]

  then I also rated with stars so then it goes into my playlist of you know I've I [TS]

  playlist done of 4 stars or higher so far [TS]

  going on a long drive i'll put on that playlist of all the songs forever that [TS]

  I've rated four stars or higher and you know I could have a couple thousand [TS]

  songs in there and I know that I'm gonna love every single one of them [TS]

  well it sounds like you you're having a much better experience with it than you [TS]

  used to [TS]

  well yeah I mean it but see that's why I need my library right as part of this [TS]

  because people have said you know like I added and this was this is a couple [TS]

  months ago I haven't tried since but I added i led zep on one and 22 from my [TS]

  music to my itunes library and it changed the names to those those classic [TS]

  albums two legs up on mothership which is their greatest hits album and it just [TS]

  it just pissed me off [TS]

  does it come on no no no it's not that's not it right and it's even worse that it [TS]

  was those albums because those it's wrong in any case to botch the album [TS]

  name but they're so canonical in an iconic you know I mean like Led Zeppelin [TS]

  I every it's up on element but especially to me one two three and four [TS]

  well and can act houses of the holy they're all they're all it is no which [TS]

  album it is right but things like that i don't find happen much anymore [TS]

  there are n see that's why I want my my own music because I've spent the last [TS]

  you know what 15 years rating songs in itunes uh and and using those playlists [TS]

  for ratings and also for plays you know what everybody my top five hundred songs [TS]

  played of all time in my itunes library i have a playlist for that right so if i [TS]

  want to narrow down you know the stars and to just what i've actually played [TS]

  then I guess it would be all aussie songs but you know then i can take that [TS]

  playlist and people have said you know when i put i posted a picture of legs up [TS]

  on one and two being changed to mothership and people simple [TS]

  why would you add it from your your own songs when you can just add it from [TS]

  apple music and be done with it and my my argument was a well then you're [TS]

  you're admitting that doesn't work I mean you're basically admitting defeat [TS]

  saying fine you know it doesn't work i'll just do what happened wants me to [TS]

  do now i have i have valid reasons that I want this stuff on my own and you know [TS]

  do I want to spend like $MONEY a year going through all my music and updating [TS]

  the stuff from Apple music with all the ratings and everything I had no I'm not [TS]

  gonna do that [TS]

  so we're talking about Apple music have you seen this story about it was [TS]

  Hollywood Reporter that that broke it but that that Apple is backing a TV [TS]

  series maybe a limited-run TV series about about and starring dr dre yeah i [TS]

  did see that and to me the interesting part was so anybody has been waiting for [TS]

  a while for Apple to start having their own exclusive content because they're [TS]

  sort of the last ones to the game [TS]

  I mean I don't know I guess microsoft doesn't really but youtube you know [TS]

  through google through YouTube has a YouTube read-only content hulu obviously [TS]

  it's all about their own content netflix has their own content and amazon has [TS]

  exclusive content that if you're an Amazon Prime member so did that question [TS]

  is if Apple if it's true i mean it seems like it's definitely true that they're [TS]

  shooting this dr dre thing like that the hollywood reporter you know had reports [TS]

  of you know who's in it and what the content is I'm fascinated by the idea of [TS]

  how are they going to release it like is it [TS]

  are they going to sell it through itunes like you pay a dollar ninety-nine an [TS]

  episode like you do four shows from networks are they going to make it so [TS]

  that if you are an apple music subscriber you get it for free [TS]

  what they do both so that if you're not an apple music subscriber you can buy it [TS]

  but if you're at you know if you do is it like sign up for Apple music and you [TS]

  can watch this dr dre show [TS]

  and if so is isn't Apple music a bad name for Apple music also write like [TS]

  yeah like it's less than a year old but it's already you know in the way that [TS]

  itunes got this name that with tunes you know the root word of itunes tunes and [TS]

  it involved in all these ways that eventually had nothing to do with music [TS]

  Apple music already about video content and don't forget that and I to itunes [TS]

  was itunes music store and they drive music right [TS]

  you know like iOS was my phone all right is it is Apple ever going to stop naming [TS]

  things music and then had to make them go in other ways and just say it would [TS]

  be like Amazon Prime had been named amazon free shipping the amazon free [TS]

  shipping club now it's like they had the foresight when they named it amazon [TS]

  prime that hey we might do all sorts of cool stuff for people who sign up for [TS]

  this so let's just give it a name that just sort of means you know it [TS]

  amazon premium customer but I i think i think I they they did such a good job [TS]

  with with itunes over the years that people know you know you just go to [TS]

  itunes to get everything which may be part of a problem in in trying to split [TS]

  it out you know I but you know with your your question I mean it would make sense [TS]

  for Apple because they have the money to be able to say yes [TS]

  sign up for Apple music and get dr. dre's show for free [TS]

  yeah you know they they could very well do that I think it's interesting that [TS]

  that they are getting into it and and I think it's a good thing and they need to [TS]

  do it [TS]

  yeah what if I mean it could i don't know i mean they have so many options [TS]

  but it could could just say if you have any Apple device you can watch it for [TS]

  free you know any I any iphone ipad apple TV can can watch the show for free [TS]

  I don't know i'm very curious what they would do or what they're going to do [TS]

  I've been thinking about it for a long time because I've long everybody's long [TS]

  suspected Apple might get into original content but now that they are i'm [TS]

  excited to find out how they're actually going to go to market with it [TS]

  because i don't think it's clear it is gonna be and wellness and let's not [TS]

  forget that they grew from what a six million subscribers to 11 million they [TS]

  told you in the last week I mean that's huge [TS]

  it's funny because it's not huge by Apple standards like on the same show [TS]

  you know they mentioned that they have 700 million users 707 million total [TS]

  users and they've only got 11 million Apple music but it's you know it's it's [TS]

  in comparison to other streaming services and it is sort of a slow and [TS]

  steady wins the race type thing right and like a huge i meant huge increase in [TS]

  Ryan in a relatively short period of time I mean they almost doubled it [TS]

  so here's the question though I did they double it because of this Taylor Swift [TS]

  thing I mean for awhile looked like Taylor Swift bought apple right now [TS]

  because she was just everywhere you walk into a retail store that stores were [TS]

  just plastered with taylor swift the itunes store was posture but Taylor [TS]

  Swift I mean every banner was taylor swift is is that why it grew and you [TS]

  know i I've also said before that I don't think it heard my notes certainly [TS]

  didn't hurt [TS]

  I mean is it because the service over that time get better I i understand that [TS]

  there are a lot of people a lot of people that never had a problem with [TS]

  Apple music I i get that I've talked to those people you know [TS]

  ok and ind those I really do but if you came to me today with Apple music and [TS]

  said here it is [TS]

  III be a hundred percent behind it and I can't see saying a bad thing like i said [TS]

  there's still a couple neatly little bugs in it but nothing that i would say [TS]

  you know all this is this is terrible [TS]

  I mean interesting wins the software Pagano care well I think the music [TS]

  industry is going clearly kind of going the same way as the TV in and [TS]

  and video world where exclude it you know exclusives drive drive the [TS]

  subscriptions you know it's you know netflix it isn't netflix without the [TS]

  netflix original content at this point even know a lot of what people watch on [TS]

  netflix are there the whole library of movies and stuff like that but it's the [TS]

  fact that they have some stuff that you can only get on netflix that is you know [TS]

  if you're only going to subscribe to one or two monthly services [TS]

  you know it's the exclusive stuff that makes you pick which ones it is and just [TS]

  as the you know another example [TS]

  so the and it just seems like you know Taylor Swift having original stuff on on [TS]

  Apple music like the movie they made and stuff like that is exclusive and then [TS]

  you've got Kanye West who has a new album out that's only on title and he [TS]

  said yeah for whatever reason you know that it's never going to be on we call [TS]

  it apple but it's never going to be on ya and and I for one am thankful that [TS]

  he's not going to be an apple music so I saw him on Saturday Night Live last week [TS]

  I thought it was like incomprehensible I I mean I'm a little old but I'm [TS]

  definitely not that the demo but it it's a very pretty bizarre performance [TS]

  he's an interesting guy but but again no it's just but you just never used to see [TS]

  that in the old days there was never like like an album that came out from a [TS]

  major act that was only it at Tower Records right right it just wasn't how [TS]

  the industry worked and it just seems like now especially from the perspective [TS]

  of the the the superstar music acts that it's all about exclusives and apple is [TS]

  in a strong position in my opinion in that regard because they can a pay for [TS]

  it and be i think that from them you know in addition to just the fact that [TS]

  Apple has the money to pay for it they know people know that Apple eyes the [TS]

  marketing ability to to really help you know that if Apple is behind you and [TS]

  marketing you know you've got a really good marketing partner [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  I agree I and I i love the fact that they are getting into this original [TS]

  content i can't wait to see where that goes [TS]

  now you know I but there's you know there's there's a lot of things that [TS]

  they can do they have a lot of connections and you know what i think is [TS]

  really funny [TS]

  remember that the whole thing with the jimmy iovine talking about women and [TS]

  playlist that you know that women are sitting around talking about boys and [TS]

  you know Wilson into music and they need help with playlist the latest commercial [TS]

  were three women sitting around talking about you know breaking up and and [TS]

  listening to music at that Center Byronic uh I guess that brings us to the [TS]

  last and final scandal of the week which is that in that think that was the [TS]

  commercial where there's one of the new to new iphone commercials apple at the [TS]

  narrator young woman pronounces the word chif as gift which is how i pronounce it [TS]

  is it you know the gif image format is it a soft soft G or hard G and apple has [TS]

  come out strongly on a hard G side which is where I've always been into so but [TS]

  there we go but I know people are losing losing their shit over that [TS]

  yeah well we have we have so much time in our hands these days then we can we [TS]

  can lose their shit over something like like that but i don't what is the right [TS]

  way I've always said give this is why it's the long story short the [TS]

  controversy is that the i think it was one guy i mean i guess i can look it up [TS]

  in the show notes but whoever it was who created it it if you remember it was a [TS]

  unisys image format that they had a patent on and that they never enforced [TS]

  it but then when the end and it was I get sort of obscure image format in like [TS]

  the late eighties early nineties but then when the web happened and we needed [TS]

  really tightly you know it's very small bite count image format and then all the [TS]

  browsers supported the format and it exploded and then unit systems like a [TS]

  dude we still own a patent on that [TS]

  really kind of made a stink about it anyway the the team or the guy [TS]

  unisys who invented it and then stands for graphics interchange format and the [TS]

  guy who invented it says it they've always pronounced it with the soft G [TS]

  Jeff like the peanut butter and therefore that side of the argument says [TS]

  the guy who invented it says it's jeff therefore it's jeff i wear as everybody [TS]

  else is like if its graphics interchange format it's a hard G it's gift and who [TS]

  cares what the original guy said language evolves naturally and the [TS]

  natural way that this is involved is that it's a hard G ok so the big [TS]

  question doesn't matter over people but there was like when that video game out [TS]

  there is like an hour or two on twitter where that's all anybody was talking [TS]

  about i mean do you go to anybody and say gift and they don't know what you're [TS]

  talking about [TS]

  no now I just I just think it sounds better right now I baby very curious to [TS]

  know like what weather readers and listeners of the show if how they fall [TS]

  it seems like it's a little bit like the vodka vs gin martini thing where there's [TS]

  the the one side cares a lot and the other side is like hey you pronounce it [TS]

  however you want [TS]

  yeah you know like with martinis the people who like vodka martinis other [TS]

  people you know and somebody else's well i think a real Martini has to be made [TS]

  with gin and vodka person says okay don't enjoy you know your gin martini [TS]

  but the gin martini person that you're not drinking a real martini that's not a [TS]

  martini Europe you know and I feel like the hard G give people are like I say [TS]

  give you say Jeff alright but the soft G people really get bent out of shape [TS]

  about it apparently because that you know that the guys like I said the guy [TS]

  who created it says it's the other way [TS]

  well anyway apple says it's hard G so I say it's RG know I always thought her [TS]

  too [TS]

  I anything else before we wrap up i don't think so i guess i have a crash i [TS]

  guess most podcast do their corrections at the beginning two episodes ago [TS]

  I said I think that was with Ben Thompson I i was we're talking about the [TS]

  new 4-inch iphone that supposedly coming next month and I think I said that it's [TS]

  going to have the a8 processor that's a year old from the iphone 6 and Mark [TS]

  government has reported that sunday 9i think couple other rumors rumors of [TS]

  setting III but I misspoke on the air so the rumor is I don't know if it's true [TS]

  or not but anyway I should correct it that the rumor as reported by marc [TS]

  herman and I think others is that the new 4-inch iphone is going to have an 89 [TS]

  processor which would put it at the you know six months behind the iphone 6s and [TS]

  6s plus in terms of specs and that is exactly why when i was on the show with [TS]

  then that I said I think that it's a phone that Apple intends to keep on the [TS]

  market for 18 to 24 months because they're putting the top-of-the-line a9 [TS]

  in there and that makes a lot more sense I I misspoke when I said hey and I I [TS]

  regret their what else [TS]

  clearly you're not trustworthy anymore i already yeah can I ask you one question [TS]

  we get asked me anything Joe I do you use Apple music not a lot I don't listen [TS]

  to a lot of music to tell you the truth [TS]

  mm okay I never I i haven't in a long time I don't I can't work with music [TS]

  playing why couldn't I can't but a you know I'm a little princess and the pea i [TS]

  like to with a pea under my mattress [TS]

  I like to work in silence so I don't listen to music when i'm writing a [TS]

  reading on I if I do want to listen to music though I I would yeah okay i was [TS]

  just one I think where I will eventually use Apple music the most and I needed [TS]

  that need to get a new car to make it work better but I anticipate you know [TS]

  that getting a car where instead of using serious which we have in our car i [TS]

  would much rather have apple music and just go over the LTE connection on my [TS]

  phone because it would be a much higher quality even my shitty years can can [TS]

  hear that the the horrible compression on current satellite radio [TS]

  so it'd be way higher fidelity and I'd you know obviously I think it I would [TS]

  just rather go through the Apple music stations and the Apple music algorithms [TS]

  and have the complete access to my personal library at all times rather [TS]

  than just choose from the stations that serious offers the car is where I would [TS]

  listen to music but I don't drive much so it's it's not that much you know even [TS]

  there it's not much but like when I go out like on a walk in the city or [TS]

  something that I listen to podcast instead of music I don't really listen [TS]

  to much but if I do listen to music i do use it but I don't use it enough that i [TS]

  have strong opinions on it so that's why it I I don't really write much about [TS]

  Apple music well give it a try to think you'll like it [TS]

  everybody can check out Jim's work of course at loop in that's Jim's [TS]

  website and on Twitter he's going to guess my guess is your user name is jay [TS]

  Dalrymple that is it and and you can enjoy his plight is played out you know [TS]

  and all haha now there's no plate anymore [TS]

  it's all good it's polite tweets alright Jim thanks a lot [TS]

  it's good talking to you too mama [TS]