The Talk Show

149: ‘With Apologies to Hamilton’, With Special Guest Glenn Fleishman


  the dulcet tones of your sweet voice gun i propose a poem by the way [TS]

  oh well let's hear it trying to guess I'd it's about I was I was moved by the [TS]

  ending of the Apple filing so and I've been listening to Hamilton we're too [TS]

  much are you a fan of hamilton and you've been listening to iive not i am [TS]

  aware that it exists and I'm aware that it a sensation and I agree that the [TS]

  premise sounds it sounds fascinating but I've actually not like watched or [TS]

  listened to any of it yet it's kind of a brain virus like I'd heard about it I [TS]

  sort of was like well maybe i'll wait I'll see if somebody don't want to and [TS]

  then I was like well listen to a song and then you just spiraled down so this [TS]

  is just my poem inspired by the end of the Apple brief with apologies to [TS]

  Hamilton Your Honor we must have earned reading Brandeis government seals a [TS]

  danger not understanding the scope of their pleading the danger delivery lies [TS]

  within mistreating Americans rights we posit they're exceedingly well meeting [TS]

  but insidious encroaching demeaning [TS]

  there we go very well said nipsey Russell for the ages [TS]

  i'm also reading a ehrenberg papers because you know how the government [TS]

  cited as yeah I've been actually going back and reading some of the historical [TS]

  documents create some books from the eighteen hundreds in some later books [TS]

  written about it found interesting article from 92 and looking at the [TS]

  original ciphers that the codes and ciphers they used it's a very [TS]

  fascinating thing to see what the state of cryptography was the late seventeen [TS]

  hundreds early eighteen-hundreds all comes back to Hamilton it kinda does [TS]

  it's really kind of funny who this is a tweet from my past buzzed Anderson last [TS]

  night who would have thought Aaron Burr would get so much attention into is a [TS]

  little weird and then they did Hamilton performance at the White House like not [TS]

  long after the FBI was citing the umbrella amber ostensibly want to become [TS]

  the Emperor Mexico need a plan [TS]

  American history is kind of awesome and strangely tell you the Emperor from [TS]

  Mexican restaurants ago just going to the mid-mississippi to try to schedule [TS]

  some kind of event in a general who didn't want to get caught [TS]

  up with it had been corresponding with him for years turned over the ciphered [TS]

  letter and there's a trial and he was found innocent of treason because the [TS]

  justice in the case of Frankenstein famous just Marshall Marshall thank you [TS]

  said that no actual like event had occurred so it wasn't treasonous to [TS]

  discuss this even if that's what was discussed so you will have been treason [TS]

  to become the emperor of Mexico since that's not it wasn't trying to become [TS]

  the Emperor united states he was trying to raise our armed forces to fight [TS]

  against separate another nation that without the support and authority to of [TS]

  america so there was some like I am losing the detail there but it was under [TS]

  it was treason because he was acting against the interest in stated policy of [TS]

  america and waging war that was the intent but without actually doing it so [TS]

  number one up living for decades after that and never quite got back to the [TS]

  same position aquatic when he was vice president between the duel and then [TS]

  treason trial and then just kind of people not really wanted to be what is [TS]

  that I went to the story of the tool that's this one of those things that [TS]

  it's like you file it on your head that that the revolutionary times were crazy [TS]

  and that they were you know like the remnants of the medieval era was still [TS]

  you know floating around was conquered most things doing with was mostly bandit [TS]

  was in it was noticed i believe it common practice in England I think it [TS]

  was practiced in the barbarous colonies right and i am reading the channel [TS]

  biography of Hamilton now so I haven't gotten to the intricacies there i recall [TS]

  from my past reading and and bring some things after the play so become popular [TS]

  went back and reread and they had to go to New Jersey and this line in the in [TS]

  the musical yet you can do anything in New Jersey right you can just like [TS]

  everything is legal in New Jersey the jack and they're going to jersey because [TS]

  it was still ostensibly legal but no manslaughter was thin and murder still [TS]

  illegal [TS]

  so you could condense ibly in some states you could do all and if no one [TS]

  was injured or killed [TS]

  you might just walk away from it but such are not much of a dual though if [TS]

  nobody's injector well it's to satisfy Honor I mean that's I think it's it's [TS]

  funny the ritualized violence there's a really great essay in new york times for [TS]

  a few days ago these philosophers talking about [TS]

  what violence is they argue that violence isn't an act itself it's a [TS]

  violence has a cycle you know there's an attack you attack someone that's not [TS]

  personal violence their definition is that you're dealing with a cycle that [TS]

  perpetuates itself that is violence and it's a great discussion that deals with [TS]

  sports as a representation of of force and violence in a controlled fashion and [TS]

  violence at the Trump rallies and it's I was blown away by it but doing is part [TS]

  of that tradition is yes its overt violence but it is also under very [TS]

  specific constraints and a lot of the time duels didn't result in anyone being [TS]

  hit that was the point but everyone got to satisfy the fact that the express the [TS]

  form of ritualized violence without actually killing someone but you could [TS]

  also kill somebody [TS]

  so why did Bern Hamilton getting a duel I burn was well let's see this this is [TS]

  what you have to have to watch the musical 30 degrees can somehow spent [TS]

  5,000 option tickets but that the dual the subject the duel was that basically [TS]

  Hamilton was talking smack about birds and probably rightly so / really shifted [TS]

  to whatever you need to do [TS]

  he doesn't love double-dealing Helton was not a pure character either [TS]

  necessarily but he he had been speaking publicly and privately and i believe [TS]

  there was a specific dinner at that some comments came through sober wanted him [TS]

  to apologize and Hamilton said I'm not saying anything that's not true and even [TS]

  though his son Hamilton son had been killed in a duel [TS]

  not many years before and both he and berhad seconded this is part of the [TS]

  musical to had seconded another duel when they were younger they were the [TS]

  seconds and in a case that involved i think was George Washington being [TS]

  insulted [TS]

  George Washington was more parties the dual even with that they went out there [TS]

  and there's this long-running debate the musical is part of the channel biography [TS]

  is whether Hamilton intended to shoot her or not whether Burr was reacting [TS]

  with intent or thought he was about to be shot and and fire directly but never [TS]

  quite known and we're talking about 200-plus years later it's amazing i did [TS]

  the the takeaway i took from school when I learned about it was that it in and [TS]

  you know and again who knows how [TS]

  I carried it is but it's it seems as though like most of the founding fathers [TS]

  were were genuine statesman and then a couple of them we're for real hothead [TS]

  oh yeah well in there all I just I just watched the musical 1776 my kids my kids [TS]

  are all head up about Hamilton now and you know where the other coast and [TS]

  tickets are $MONEY fortune so we will hopefully see it when it towards you [TS]

  know a touring company to seattle probably a B Company in like four year [TS]

  hit 23 Kurzweil will go pay too much to see here but I'm like a look there is a [TS]

  musical about the founding fathers like really really let's watch 1776 so we did [TS]

  that I'd watched it for the incomparable we did an old movie club a couple of [TS]

  years ago and watched and re-watched with them they loved it's all sort of [TS]

  focus on John Adams primarily also Jefferson and Franklin and that I always [TS]

  whenever I see these things like Michael read some more stuff about atoms they [TS]

  are really interesting people they had rich lives that they were involved in [TS]

  all kinds of stuff and they weren't they you know they were all people who have [TS]

  their own lives in Congress was another thing wasn't there call wasn't seen as [TS]

  one . in their life the content of Congress particularly but I don't know [TS]

  it's a fascinating and Bo Franklin course the fastening lived a long life [TS]

  and like sex workers and mistresses and all kinds of people and lived in France [TS]

  and came back and anyway so great a great bunch that that's the musical john [TS]

  adams apparently late-in-life wrote about how he was obnoxious and disliked [TS]

  and late in life he looked quite a long time he and jefferson died on the same [TS]

  day they are bitter enemies they died many miles part of the same day which is [TS]

  one of those little and the day was july 4th yes that's right forgot you're right [TS]

  mr. Foyle but an Adam's criticized his own personality late in life its musical [TS]

  takes it up there's just a recurring line your boxes and disliked you know [TS]

  that sir and I but apparently it was actually quite well liked and he was [TS]

  feeding himself too harshly late in life so he wasn't as obnoxious as you go also [TS]

  brings to mind from a comment you had a couple minutes ago at the dylan song [TS]

  from the Traveling Wilburys moon in jersey everything's legal as long as you [TS]

  don't get caught haha see Hamilton is great actually pulls from [TS]

  physical theatre modern musical rap and hip-hop I heard like echoes of poems [TS]

  were out like all of either so if you go to genius the annotated and people have [TS]

  found it's not a pastiche but he pulls so lin-manuel miranda is a excellent in [TS]

  terms of taking your ear and letting you hear an echo of something if you're [TS]

  tuning if you're not it sounds good but if your big hip-hop fan you'll hear you [TS]

  know rhythms patterns lines the kind of characterization if your musical theater [TS]

  fan like I am you hear all kinds of things throughout you're like wait oh [TS]

  you know there's that references 1776 there's a reference to South Pacific [TS]

  Rodgers and Hammerstein and Sondheim references throughout sometime loves it [TS]

  apparently which is great it looks like it's funny we're talking about the [TS]

  seventeen hundreds but it's not right a challenge because so is Apple the FBI so [TS]

  what's cracking up like what is the deal that this musical sweeping the nation [TS]

  and then suddenly appear as equality all writs Act has been modified for 250 [TS]

  years but anyway it's just the way it always works out you know these things [TS]

  these things happen it's it's clear dies the militants it's all right serendipity [TS]

  is a real like almost like a force it is pretty amazing i'm now the details of it [TS]

  though it's kind of interesting we'll get into it again but it so it last week [TS]

  the federal government filed up their final brief which Apple initially took [TS]

  think it's fair to say took umbrage yes to several of the angles that the [TS]

  government took in it I thought this was interesting because i was invited to the [TS]

  to the conference calls that reporters were on both last weekend this week and [TS]

  it was a real interesting difference like last week and they do them very [TS]

  fast and it's it's obviously and I'll i enjoy thinking about this strategically [TS]

  because I don't work fast right there in fireball is not a source of breaking [TS]

  news the talk shows certainly is not as a source of breaking news i tend to i [TS]

  tend to take my time and not not because i want to but because i have to add my [TS]

  brain just doesn't work [TS]

  quickly but it's fascinating to me to look at the the meta angle on it which [TS]

  is that when these briefs drop Apple reacts very quickly so last week's call [TS]

  i think that it was on friday maybe it was Thursday Thursday or Friday last [TS]

  week when the government put them without and apple held the call with the [TS]

  reporters an hour later so I I certainly hadn't gotten through the brief I guess [TS]

  Apple at you know that you know apples attorneys had the full hour before they [TS]

  started the call [TS]

  Wow um and it's I guess that the strategy there is that they know that [TS]

  once the brief is out the news media is some of the news media are going to you [TS]

  know start writing takes an apple wants to spend get their spin on it out as [TS]

  quickly as possible otherwise it's too late that they have to have you know if [TS]

  they have to do something [TS]

  press relations was quickly but I thought the difference between there [TS]

  there there [TS]

  what would you call it a hot take last week and this week is so different i [TS]

  gets I detect a very quick cat cool confidence in their current argument but [TS]

  anyway one of the things the government put in their brief last week was a [TS]

  reference to this is again this is back to what's the year 7 1807 Chief Justice [TS]

  Marshall that the government claims once ordered a third party to quote provide [TS]

  decryption services [TS]

  I've I wouldn't read the original transcripts that trial by the way [TS]

  ok that's fed that i cannot i did not i want to hear about it but that the [TS]

  government said that there's some precedent for for compelling somebody to [TS]

  decrypt something that we can't decrypt is that Chief Justice Marshall had [TS]

  ehrenberg secretary decrypt deciphered note and apple in its response i was [TS]

  yesterday was a monday haha but yeah monday we got 100 yesterday yesterday [TS]

  was yesterday [TS]

  oh yeah it's all that but it's it's all a blur [TS]

  says that they got the government got it wrong that Marshall did nothing of the [TS]

  sort that the all writs Act had nothing to do was not even an issue in Burr and [TS]

  what actually happened according to apple's brief is that ehrenberg [TS]

  secretary declined to state whether he quote understood the contents of a [TS]

  certain letter written in cipher on the ground that he might incriminate himself [TS]

  so another team just poking the Fifth Amendment to declined to say whether he [TS]

  understood the ciphered message and what the court decided was that he could [TS]

  answer that because simply entering whether he understood the cipher would [TS]

  not incriminate them right that's which is our fascinating if you're you know [TS]

  sort of a.e you know like at a like I am just sort of like a broad strokes like [TS]

  interested in civil liberties and these in cases like this like edge cases [TS]

  around the Fifth Amendment can be fascinating and that's an interesting [TS]

  one hears you know in its again what over 200 years ago its sophisticated [TS]

  question yeah they're leaving this is what I love living in 2016 and be able [TS]

  to pull up instantly transcripts of trials that happened over 200 years ago [TS]

  with the court anyway the bottom line this is from Apple's brief in a footnote [TS]

  the court did not require the clerk to decipher the letter that's correct [TS]

  that's correct [TS]

  who is he it was a it was the there are two questions being put in was do you [TS]

  understand the size of that paper did the paper come from Colonel burr was [TS]

  written by my bias direction the last question summary but last question ought [TS]

  to have been first stated the witness does not say why the answer the question [TS]

  of the tenancy to criminate him and so it goes back and forth because the judge [TS]

  ultimately the issue is if I right he didn't have to decipher their asked him [TS]

  if he knew the contents of the letter not to provide the cipher key in fact [TS]

  just to be pedantic here was both a code and decipher the code book actually to [TS]

  that they will concern and burn others have been using the first one since the [TS]

  1790s I think and then later when they modified that codes for like president [TS]

  vice-president France and so forth and then there was also a simple replacement [TS]

  site for that use the rotating leather scheme so you have a letter to the top [TS]

  like Cuba or France [TS]

  particularly you take the letters following them down assign the numbers [TS]

  and then you could you read across the row to pick the numbers corresponding so [TS]

  complicated for the day because you could work out simple site substitution [TS]

  ciphers are relatively easy to work out easier with computers but definitely [TS]

  doable in the day and that's not that protected but codes are very difficult [TS]

  so without knowledge of the code you can determine from frequency of appearance [TS]

  and other characteristics you can sometimes achieve this but he wasn't [TS]

  asked you know the cipher it was do you all right but it wasn't for the cipher [TS]

  right was asked do you know what it said do you understand the contents and he [TS]

  was concerned that any statement would allow him to it would provide it would [TS]

  put in the position of incrimination right fascinating but i have to say it [TS]

  sounds to me like apples exactly right that it's no precedent whatsoever for [TS]

  compelling somebody to decode and encrypted pretty clearly very clearly [TS]

  anyway what's a one of the interesting side effects of all this and the end of [TS]

  invoking things like these that this burr case is this that i did not know [TS]

  that the founding fathers took work so commonly in use of codes and ciphers and [TS]

  stuff ruling apparently one of the things i read was like the first [TS]

  Postmaster General was like a political enemy of a couple of them i forget which [TS]

  I forget others that the way that their political things are aight i get it [TS]

  mixed up but long story short that they they really felt some of them really [TS]

  felt like they needed to because they knew that this Postmaster General was [TS]

  reading your mail [TS]

  oh yeah there's a contrite mail was often open its interesting thing that [TS]

  our current mail system i have forgotten how far back the law goes it might be [TS]

  the eighteenth and nineteenth century that it's illegal for any party to open [TS]

  the mail that concluding the post office except with like specific warrant or [TS]

  subpoena another Hamilton musical reference by was Hercules Mulligan best [TS]

  name in the world he was transporting messages he was not a loyalist but he [TS]

  was sort of a spy going back and forth to New York is a textile importer and [TS]

  clothing shop is taylor and he and his slave whose name was Cato we're sending [TS]

  messages back and forth often in [TS]

  code or in other you know trying to decide the meaning of it eventually [TS]

  became too dangerous but he's one of the reasons that they were able to to [TS]

  Hamilton was able to assist General Washington in some of the battles around [TS]

  and it's amazing it is an amazing named Hercules molecule a smile again it's [TS]

  awesome great partner in the flight ya konan coats with an important part i [TS]

  think i forget what the earliest cryptographic stuff is that there's a [TS]

  thing of wrapping a strip of paper around a cylinder assert dimension like [TS]

  pencil-sized thing that was used so you could right across it and then unfurl it [TS]

  must you the dimensions you will be able to figure it out all yeah I've seen that [TS]

  I've seen that and that's I think where the earliest uses of script and simple [TS]

  cipher substitution if you don't know what it is and it's only become more [TS]

  complicated overtime but code has a code interception of code and people being [TS]

  executed for possession of what was seen as code that was never decipher doll big [TS]

  issues are mainly for thousands of years when i was a kid i got i spent a couple [TS]

  I mean it's been a long time i was truly you know like grade school age but i [TS]

  spent like you know a 1.1 of my obsessions became codes and stuff like [TS]

  that and boom I very high speed to remember that one where you wrap the [TS]

  paper around like a ruler type thing of a certain known with and and then when [TS]

  you unwrap it [TS]

  it just looks like gibberish again like you said that's not the most secure [TS]

  nobody else knows it then I don't have sophistication the other side it's a [TS]

  people like why someone with gibberish I i have a very vivid memory i am almost [TS]

  certain i was in first grade but it was certainly like first or second that [TS]

  Kellogg's had a campaign and that three or four of their like flagship kitty [TS]

  cereals had little little plastic things in them so like the toucan sam one might [TS]

  be blue and the frosted flakes Tony the Tiger one was yellow and maybe the Sugar [TS]

  Smacks one was red [TS]

  you know with the rabbit rabbit or whatever his name was my ribbit frog you [TS]

  know I mean but they're so used to be different colors and [TS]

  and you would if they were all just a different like 26 character cypher you [TS]

  know where it would just be a different rotation you know sort of like rock it [TS]

  was like a rock 13 but you know Tony the Tiger's rot 17 and and the frog one was [TS]

  rotten 11 or something like that but I was fascinated like AI as a first-grader [TS]

  I felt pretty clever that I figured out the differences between them but then it [TS]

  was cool because then we was it like with friends at school we could send [TS]

  coded messages to each other and it took so long spent you know spinning the disk [TS]

  it would just be like it's been altered drink your ovaltine yeah exactly eggs [TS]

  attack it like i thought it's called the script script holly is the Greek rod [TS]

  that was used for encryption substitutions diaper I knew there is [TS]

  something that's not the earliest Egyptians were maybe a thousand years [TS]

  before for that there's also a famous story of the word Shibboleth you know [TS]

  it's a great story it's not about code per se but spies in a camp [TS]

  some might camp and the leader says say you now should be left in the spies were [TS]

  unable to pronounce the show sound and they said symbol F and were put to death [TS]

  social life is like that pass phrase like a thing you say to be shown that [TS]

  your member of a tribe always like that these divisions go back thousands of [TS]

  years so I'm probably the origin of being able to put words on paper people [TS]

  were figuring out ways to make other people not be able to read those right [TS]

  well to communicate at length right yeah because you could always communicate in [TS]

  private [TS]

  well I mean I mean obviously you could if your room is bugged or whatever [TS]

  there's there's ways around but if you where you see if you're reasonably [TS]

  secure that your room is the room know you're an inn is not being bugged you [TS]

  can have a private conversation with somebody that the trick is how do you [TS]

  have a private conversation with somebody at a distance and it's like you [TS]

  said it's long as we've been communicating at a distance even if it's [TS]

  like just begin by sending dispatching a messenger there have been codes [TS]

  yeah i mean how are you saying that my people aren't proof spaces is not [TS]

  exactly popular in our minds my grandparents grab my family was [TS]

  furniture and pressure stores for many many years and my grandfather developed [TS]

  a code [TS]

  number code and letter code based on our last name and his mother's initial so [TS]

  they could put the retail pro the wholesale price of things on the tags [TS]

  that customers knowing so we're gonna go shot the new exactly how they could go [TS]

  see clever fell out my grandpa very very clever boy that's the type of thing that [TS]

  nowadays people you know yet [TS]

  eventually some consumer web site would come out with the yeah yeah go into this [TS]

  mattress store has a deep especially ya know they can go [TS]

  yeah alright let me take a break here and thank our sponsor it's our good [TS]

  friends at casper you guys know Casper they sell mattresses online obsessively [TS]

  engineered mattresses at shockingly fair prices there's one of the there's my [TS]

  favorite thing about casper mattresses they don't make you choose between like [TS]

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  good sleep so all you do is pick what size you want [TS]

  so you know what size bed you have so you just go there you need a new [TS]

  mattress get the right size and as crazy as it sounds I know I've said this every [TS]

  time they sponsor the show it sounds crazy to buy a mattress without like [TS]

  trying it out but what kind of a tryout do you actually get a retail store [TS]

  anyway it's actually kind of gross because other people have slept on it [TS]

  right and just like being there with all of your clothes on and laying on a bed [TS]

  for two or three minutes isn't gonna tell you how you sleep on it so actually [TS]

  the way that Casper does it if you think about it it's a traditional but it makes [TS]

  a lot more sense they have a risk-free trial and return policy you try sleeping [TS]

  on a Casper for a hundred days and if you don't like it up to a hundred days [TS]

  they'll do just call them up [TS]

  go to the website and they'll take care of free will just take it right back [TS]

  no no questions asked I've even heard from listener the show sent me an email [TS]

  and said that [TS]

  that they did it and that they bought it because it was on the show and it was [TS]

  like for whatever reason wasn't wasn't to their liking and it and and said in a [TS]

  little just wanted to say I know you keep saying that they take them back but [TS]

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  guess we should talk in detail about the Apple FBI case [TS]

  yeah . gentlemen weekend especially because i feel like this is the one [TS]

  thing this is the thing I mean we can talk about next week's event and what [TS]

  our last minute speculation is whatever but that's it [TS]

  you know it's interesting but it's of the moment whereas that this F Apple FBI [TS]

  thing is is truly I I don't think it's hyperbole I think it's genuinely [TS]

  important to the future of the Republic I i am absolutely i think it's actually [TS]

  one of the most fundamental issues of privacy we could possibly facing out and [TS]

  we have the best advocate on our side and the government and extremely [TS]

  disappointed the unlockable administration's stance [TS]

  I feel like we're for being sold out because rich mogul has this line to talk [TS]

  to him about it he says it's not on my watch [TS]

  isn't that is what is driving and he says he's worked with law enforcement a [TS]

  lot a lot of good takes on this subject and he said nobody wants to be the guy [TS]

  when the event happens and you could have been something else and you didn't [TS]

  do everything so the FBI is doing is scorched earth policy to break apart [TS]

  this thing they try to find a test case because james comey and a few other [TS]

  people are saying this is not going to be the thing where we lose not i'm not [TS]

  gonna be the person responsible for the next terrorist event so I'm going to do [TS]

  everything even if potentially it threatens Liberty that's not my concern [TS]

  my concern is preventing this attack and I think it's true too i think they're [TS]

  being such Bulldogs about it it but I i agree with you i think this is a tough [TS]

  that you been writing about this I think is a wonderful way the waterproof spaces [TS]

  is a big issue and company said that I and then Jonathan knows the gr ski has [TS]

  been writing about this too is just wrote recently about how there are many [TS]

  waterproof spaces in america american law and the Constitution state laws [TS]

  carve out lots of places in which warrants aren't allowed [TS]

  great post but are we allowed only the privacy of our own mind what here's the [TS]

  thing you know you're not talking about this on twitter is there's always [TS]

  natural extensions should ISPs preserve every email you ever sent like coming to [TS]

  the email permanently [TS]

  what if their brain scanners what if brain scans existed tomorrow there's [TS]

  technology starting to be able to pull images out of people's heads right with [TS]

  fats I mean would they be right [TS]

  would they be allowed to use that honest suspect in custody [TS]

  like it's not science fiction right it's not science fiction we're seeing I mean [TS]

  people are showing their actually like having some glimmerings of this where [TS]

  it's real it's something that's not telepathy its science in a lab they can [TS]

  show and so holy cow you know this isn't impractical theoretically could they [TS]

  compel a criminal suspect that too to have like a brain scan and ask them [TS]

  questions sort of like that it like worked today it's a lie detector test [TS]

  statistic magic like what is the passcode to your phone [TS]

  what's the passcode to your phone and if they read a number out of the guy's head [TS]

  and try it and it works is that admit now but I'm exactly so I don't do it [TS]

  live it i know that i don't think they can do that today to my knowledge [TS]

  there's no such device today but that does not seem [TS]

  like it's the unreasonable even within the scope of your my lifetimes [TS]

  I mean in terms of absolutely not the way that that that we're starting to [TS]

  understand the brain and I've said this before i said this on the show and I [TS]

  really it to me it really it's interesting what if what if the some [TS]

  future computing device that it provides capabilities like what we used today [TS]

  with an iphone what if it's embedded in your body but if it's something that you [TS]

  place in your wrist [TS]

  what if it's something you do put in your head right but what if it's a and [TS]

  again I i'm not an expert on Alzheimer's and I know that there are some [TS]

  biological you know what the solutions are our improvements to to alzheimer's [TS]

  research going on but what if you know somebody 10 15 20 years from now invents [TS]

  some kind of very small system-on-a-chip that can be embedded in somebody's brain [TS]

  to help with the the cognitive decline then the dementia that's caused by [TS]

  Alzheimer's it would that device [TS]

  therefore you know then be susceptible to the government reading the contents [TS]

  of it to me did you know it it's not a preposterous to to pose hypotheticals [TS]

  like that and my answer would be no you know that it's it's no different than [TS]

  there's not that much different and it's going to be less as time goes on between [TS]

  artificial digital devices and our capability of reading the you know the [TS]

  the meccanian of treating our brains is the mechanical devices they are at a [TS]

  certain level it's it's also i think the waterproof space is a great metaphor [TS]

  because in fact every place we have in in our brains and in reality that we own [TS]

  our all want proof space until the war is produced and I think there's this [TS]

  interesting thing where the view of the FBI as they've expressed the Department [TS]

  of Justice is that all spaces are open to the government on demand and that is [TS]

  simply not mean it is both true and not true [TS]

  people can also Express civil disobedience and be jailed for contempt [TS]

  or for violating court orders or other charges they can go to jail for refusing [TS]

  you have a lot of people who [TS]

  nobody in the past sometimes in oblique gone to jail rather than give up [TS]

  information or or access or locations of things i think by default we should [TS]

  assume that all places are private [TS]

  I think this notion is ajar ski wrote about this also is that the Bill of [TS]

  Rights is not a instructions on what the government can do its instructions on [TS]

  what citizens rights are and it prescribes the government from doing so [TS]

  much so it's not a plan to use to circumvent rights it's a giant wall to [TS]

  prohibit the government from excess and so the idea that every space we own is [TS]

  really owned by the government is terrifying that's really you know it's a [TS]

  very much a conservative and far-right view that the government you know any [TS]

  Democrat Democrat elected government would be have that in place of the [TS]

  government owns all spaces so they're playing into the hands at some point of [TS]

  that and I think people who are on the left of the spectrum would say also that [TS]

  even if they believe in a bigger role for government or different nature of [TS]

  government regulation and control that the government having sort of a defacto [TS]

  right to all of our private spaces our homes our computers and you know by [TS]

  extension reminds that that also is not in keeping with the nature of what you [TS]

  know civil human rights are being our and it would be in the nature of our [TS]

  country so I mean you come down this is like what percentage of iphones are used [TS]

  for crime notes . 00 whatever percent and the idea that all iphones have to be [TS]

  open to inspection at any time like bags going through it an x-ray machine or the [TS]

  TSA with their locks that have been duplicated because they allowed photos [TS]

  to be taken of the master register Keys like that's what the FBI is proposing is [TS]

  will have a way for you know the TSA style investigators to get in which [TS]

  means everyone get it right and there's a the part that to me is the most [TS]

  disappointing single most disappointing and in the in the Obama administration [TS]

  and [TS]

  you know I'll just admit it and in Hillary Clinton has a spouse the same [TS]

  opinion is a belief in this magical thinking that if we just put smart [TS]

  enough people into a room together that they can come up with a way that that [TS]

  this would this backdoor solution would only be available to law enforcement [TS]

  that we're not asking you to make a backdoor that anybody could get into we [TS]

  just want to backdoor that law enforcement can get into when we have a [TS]

  warrant which sounds reasonable and in some you know fictional other universe [TS]

  where that's mathematically possible that might be great i actually I i think [TS]

  that there's good reasons why a civil libertarian would be opposed even to [TS]

  that idea like a like let me just put this out there that and and I tend to [TS]

  lean that way i would listen to the argument but i tend to lean towards even [TS]

  if that were possible i don't think it's a good idea and I think it's contrary to [TS]

  the values that are already in our bill of rights but it is an idea but the [TS]

  simple truth is that it's math all experts agree [TS]

  everybody who understands encryption dennis is it I i don't think that you it [TS]

  it's more than even like a i mean it's it's like provably incorrect you know [TS]

  like as opposed to let's say climate change where you can say you can argue [TS]

  that only 98 or 99 percent of expert climate scientists agree that the you [TS]

  know what we're seeing is man-made [TS]

  I mean with with cryptography and back doors it's a hundred percent agreement [TS]

  because of where you're totally right i just realized I haven't seen any any [TS]

  crypto deniers out there doing this is possible only see politicians in law [TS]

  enforcement right it's an expensive [TS]

  well that's part of the beauty of trying to convince 12 your own son of it i'm [TS]

  trying to get when i talk to my twelve-year-old son it does not have the [TS]

  enthusiasm from mathematics that I did that that's the beauty of mathematics [TS]

  it's it's it you know and and it in the way that computer science sort of falls [TS]

  out of mathematics could go a long way in here like when I went to drexel I got [TS]

  my degree in computer science it was from the Department of math and computer [TS]

  science [TS]

  it was one department from mathematics and computer science and it well they've [TS]

  since broken it out in that computer science is often a [TS]

  I don't know what they did but it's an expensive building probably yeah I i [TS]

  think that but i think that what happened is that politically the [TS]

  computer science department grew to you know used to be like it was the math [TS]

  department with a little cookie computer science group of professors and then [TS]

  computer science got so popular and so important to our society that growth but [TS]

  anyway I just thought and it's not just because i went two directions where they [TS]

  put them together it just made sense to me though that when you type a computer [TS]

  program and it either works or doesn't work it's it there's a certain Beauty to [TS]

  that and I think a lot of the people who listen to the show are probably not in [TS]

  your head like that's why they got into this racket because there's a statistics [TS]

  just sore statistics lie math doesn't write correct and it's you know it's [TS]

  just disappointing to me that they keep you know pushing back on that there was [TS]

  a there's a line that Apple's attorneys used its was in the sort of off the [TS]

  record you can paraphrase you know the rules were from the call that you can [TS]

  paraphrase it not quoted directly but the gist of it was that that they talk [TS]

  to us law-enforcement frequently and they are happy to do so and happy to [TS]

  work with the government and that they are of course you know opposed to [TS]

  terrorism and crime and all this stuff and that they are also happy to you know [TS]

  willing and happy to comply with warrants and provide information that [TS]

  they have but that every time they meet with law enforcement about this issue [TS]

  law enforcement US law enforcement comes at the discussion with the angle of how [TS]

  can you let us into the iphone and never wants to discuss the question of should [TS]

  we be able to get into the iphone it's just not it there intransigent in [TS]

  transit gent on the point of how do we get into the iphone oh here let me give [TS]

  you a good thought experiment because i think there's this issuer people i want [TS]

  to say that I keep stating on the macro podcast everywhere I keep saying look I [TS]

  absolutely support the right of illegal boring i don't like extra judicial stuff [TS]

  i don't like the visor court [TS]

  I don't like extra [TS]

  constitutional things legal rendition all that stuff i like the legality the [TS]

  constitutionally created warrants right and i think the FBI should be seeking [TS]

  every available reasonable means and sometimes even almost unreasonable with [TS]

  a court holding them and checks they don't violate the Constitution totally [TS]

  support that I am absolutely a I want to trust the government the government [TS]

  isn't always trustworthy but i believe it's the best system we have to ensure [TS]

  justice we need to improve the quality of Justice as opposed to constraining [TS]

  them from being able to use tools that are legal and and courts oversee in a [TS]

  public way that is fair or whatever so here's a thought experiment i was [TS]

  reading a paper academic paper year or so ago you know that cameras and cell [TS]

  phones being that dsl dollars are so good now that they can extract a face [TS]

  from the reflection in an object in the pic lee subject so you're taking a [TS]

  picture you're behind the camera a reflection even my Newton anything [TS]

  you're taking a picture of can be reconstructed to provide a decent facial [TS]

  match against you and this is today right this is a couple years ago [TS]

  actually [TS]

  so when we have 20 megapixel or 50 mega pixel or photographic computational [TS]

  photographic equipment and everything our iphones 17 cameras on them whatever [TS]

  right so here's the picture here's the the snare you and this is where I think [TS]

  we would agree on let's find out is that FBR long person says ah we know there [TS]

  are several people in the vicinity of this event and they were taking pictures [TS]

  we believe we can recover the face for a reflection of the actual criminal and [TS]

  they subpoenaed the phones or they know they demand they want to use it as [TS]

  evidence in my view I think that's totally legitimate now is now and could [TS]

  these people be compelled under all writs Act provided maybe not maybe they [TS]

  would say yesterday they seem so you know that request to want this photo [TS]

  some people handing over those photos thinking they were legally obliged to to [TS]

  aid in this that seems reasonable to me where the line will be crossed as if [TS]

  like in this case they said oh we need to use the all writs act to break the [TS]

  encryption because some of the witnesses refused to turn over their phones we [TS]

  think there's a picture of the killer in that scene [TS]

  what are you hi Terry it's you know that's exactly what a warrant is ID in [TS]

  my opinion you know you can you ask for permission to search whatever a room [TS]

  house [TS]

  a filing cabinet digital device and what they can get off it they can get off it [TS]

  but if all they get off it is a it strongly encrypted jumble of ones and [TS]

  zeros that stuff [TS]

  yeah maybe that's an eye on so that's that's the thing I miss the difference [TS]

  of two parallel case you know where its but I think we're going to see I think [TS]

  based on this we're going to see a lot more use the all writs act and I think [TS]

  they're gonna be like that i think a lot of citizens or small companies or even [TS]

  bigger companies are going to feel compelled to do it to obey and I think [TS]

  the president said here will affect things like that will be you know what [TS]

  it is i think there's going to be a massively increasing number of cases in [TS]

  which people who are innocent bystandard standards will have evidence that we've [TS]

  useful because of digital data collection audio or video images or [TS]

  anything else but that's also a very different thing than compelling it [TS]

  innocent bystanders to take action to say 22 for example say this you know we [TS]

  have reason to believe that you know some sort of crime is going to be [TS]

  committed in this area therefore we you know that an exam tell you this is [TS]

  exactly the path that this sort of President can go down we want the right [TS]

  to turn on the camera and recording of every every I file it you know in range [TS]

  of this cell power put opticon OS right and only you know here we have we know [TS]

  it we're not saying everywhere you know anywhere and everywhere saying right [TS]

  here in the vicinity of yeah you know whatever street in whatever street in [TS]

  whatever city but we have good reason for it and therefore we should you know [TS]

  when we require the ability to do this [TS]

  that is very much within the realm of what people would ask me look that's [TS]

  already happy with cars we know that law enforcement wants to get information the [TS]

  cars look I was talking two carmakers last year about you know [TS]

  car robots self-driving cars and the deal is like this is the thing keep [TS]

  going back to what we are seeing today is the tip of the iceberg of data [TS]

  collection both us watching the watchmen watch for watching us [TS]

  and it seems like it's already ridiculous right in the future our [TS]

  clothing has been covered with cameras I mean I'm exaggerating but like [TS]

  everything cars are going to festoon the one of the limitations there's a point [TS]

  at which you can have too many cameras in a car you're collecting too much [TS]

  information that point is not been hit yet i think if the end because of [TS]

  computational photography where you can combine images for many cameras or [TS]

  different kinds of imagery from cameras to obtain more information like you know [TS]

  we talked about 3d cameras on cars are really 2d stereoscopic cameras or RGB [TS]

  plus depth and use infrared or laser for arranging that kind of information you [TS]

  can also obtain some cases if you have more cameras you don't need the ranging [TS]

  part is all these things are going to happen so at some point our camera so [TS]

  you can triangulate the three-dimensional aspect of it from the [TS]

  two different angles [TS]

  yeah they're seeing some really some really interesting paper so at some [TS]

  point we're going to our phones are going to recording a hundred percent of [TS]

  time we're going to be having wearable devices if they're watching would have [TS]

  watched whatever they're constantly ready and on recording video and audio [TS]

  unless we disable them and everything is going to constantly recording and [TS]

  streaming terabytes of data that's actually processed to pull out [TS]

  information so we are going into a future with what you're describing is [TS]

  reality there could be a continuous 3d like coverage in any area of any minimal [TS]

  population density between nest cam style things and our phones and watches [TS]

  and cars so what if the government wants to compel that we like 10 minutes in an [TS]

  hour [TS]

  hit this button in every cameras record that for the next 10 minutes and they [TS]

  get you know terabyte of information or petabyte for that I'm could skip over [TS]

  and skipping around a little bit but i think it applies but one of the [TS]

  highlights i have in Apple's me yesterday was from [TS]

  talking about this colonial law CL EA yeah i was really fast and the [TS]

  government is sort of arguing that Scalia doesn't apply to apple in this [TS]

  case and apple is arguing yes exactly applies to us yes it's and one of them [TS]

  here's the passage highlighted camellias legislative history makes clear the [TS]

  sound policy reasons behind it specific limitations on when decription services [TS]

  can be required during congressional hearings on Clea then FBI director louis [TS]

  freeh assured senator I would lay that's Pat Leahy from Vermont that kalia would [TS]

  not impede the growth of new technologies when Senator Leahy asked [TS]

  whether Clea would inhibit the growth of encryption free responded quote this [TS]

  legislation does not ask companies to decrypt it just tells them to give us [TS]

  the bits as they have them if they are encrypted that is my problem which is [TS]

  what i'm saying is that yes i think that the FBI should have the rights to get [TS]

  the contents of this suspect phone but if the contents of the phone or [TS]

  scrambled and and the FBI is technically incapable of you know decrypting them [TS]

  that's their problem and I don't say that to be callous I you know in terms [TS]

  of what if in some other hypothetical case the information would actually [TS]

  prove useful to to getting a conviction of someone who actually did something or [TS]

  what if it was it some sort of information on a phone that they can't [TS]

  access would have information that could prevent something in the future I mean [TS]

  those things will happen but it-it-it there is no perfect solution [TS]

  oh yeah I wanted to supercuts circle back about this too is we talk about the [TS]

  political spectrum it applies directly here too is that it's hilarious to see [TS]

  people all the way from this on the spectrum from say anarchist to you know [TS]

  right-wing fundamentalist who are all like its absolute limit Aryan I am I [TS]

  love that aspect is that the cryptographers cryptographic community [TS]

  has people across the larger political spectrum and i think almost who are [TS]

  prominent in it let's say that almost any other field of endeavor i can [TS]

  imagine so you've got whitfield diffie you've got moxie of [TS]

  Martin's because Mike you've got David what's the face [TS]

  Robert for a telegram from a rather security you got people across a huge [TS]

  spectrum right and some people come from dictatorship based societies and escape [TS]

  them some are living in societies are becoming repressive summer in [TS]

  democracies are sensible democracies and they're all like yeah okay maybe there's [TS]

  different reasons are you with some people may or may not be in favor of a [TS]

  backdoor none of them to scream over what you're saying there is no way to [TS]

  create that and so if you're an anarchist or you know Raging repairing [TS]

  you got the same view like that [TS]

  can I can't be done I really enjoyed keep them pondering over my head rich [TS]

  moguls description of it that it's sort of a cover-your-ass mentality or [TS]

  like--he's you're seeing his words are not on my watch but its cover cover your [TS]

  own ass because that's one way since the only way to really make sense and it's [TS]

  yeah it's very disappointing though because it's it the implications are so [TS]

  severe I have a feeling I'm again I could be wrong and that's why it's it's [TS]

  nervous watching this go down I have a feeling that Apple might do well in this [TS]

  case I think Apple I think they should it's not just because I'm hoping and [TS]

  that I my personal preferences that Apple wins this case i actually think [TS]

  that on the facts and based on that the law feel like that they should win [TS]

  well there's if they had it's so bizarre it's like I there's so many different [TS]

  bases in this brief spells out a lot of them my what the FBI department justice [TS]

  requesting is unprecedented or in this reading and you know I've been following [TS]

  this close never read this brief and some others in depth this one of it very [TS]

  much in depth because it's you know kind of the Crocs right now and because the [TS]

  FBI went to sort of name calling doj is not saying things that are just kind of [TS]

  it's like it feels like watching someone spin out of control you like looking [TS]

  intervention here and Obama is not your inventions apparently he's like he's [TS]

  like being your you're codependent enabler here [TS]

  yeah but you read this you're like look at the all writs Act has never encompass [TS]

  this and there's plenty of evidence like any other setting a species the clea the [TS]

  legislative history previous whatever then you have like basically every [TS]

  person who used to be an intelligence or law enforcement was at a high level who [TS]

  is no longer in that office thing [TS]

  yeah like what you've done with your office once supported call me because I [TS]

  had to like what about now like no no I mean that the interviews with Richard [TS]

  Clark yeah Michael Hayden with you and like parks NPR review is astonishing [TS]

  he said he's like it's called the NSA we could they could do it right [TS]

  well that that's interesting to me now number 1 i've found that post 9-11 [TS]

  richard clark was fine one of the most thoughtful and a truly impressive [TS]

  individuals it you know in the US government I green especially I've been [TS]

  a huge fan of his [TS]

  i I can't even think of a single point that I've ever really disagreed with him [TS]

  on I get released and he's you know open my mind to all sorts of things that I [TS]

  had never thought of like he's exactly the sort of person who I would want to [TS]

  be that you know who he was and who I wish we had more of a national security [TS]

  positions so when I say I my gut feeling would be that if the FBI gave this phone [TS]

  to the NSA I bet the NSA could could crack this phone and knows something [TS]

  about knows a way to get in but that's just based on you know me my hunch it as [TS]

  to what I think the NSA can do pretty much completely uninformed but just sort [TS]

  of you know it just seems to make sense when Richard Clark says is pretty sure [TS]

  that if you gave this phone to the NSA they could get in [TS]

  it's like go to the cashier and put your money on on that horse [TS]

  oh yeah what yeah anything I think anything that Apple could do to their [TS]

  own operating system the NSA could do plus the NSA can disassemble it to like [TS]

  a sub molecular level right i mean they're not magicians right there you [TS]

  know they have the best people who are not working in cryptography in public [TS]

  and private enterprise is a private enterprise rather and in public sector [TS]

  open jobs they're working at the NSA I mean this is the thing that you I don't [TS]

  love how our government is using the NSA and the FBI to gather information I do [TS]

  respect the people the FBI CIA NSA are some there's some people in there are [TS]

  many many people based on some things here are some of the smartest people on [TS]

  the planet and they're going there because they're told look do you want to [TS]

  work with the most interesting thing you can never talk about it maybe like four [TS]

  decades or ever right but you're going to work [TS]

  with the most interesting cutting-edge technology ideas and hardware and theory [TS]

  that no one else in the world work with your gonna go there there people go [TS]

  there they may have moral qualms predator on it doesn't enter into it or [TS]

  they support the missions but it is a it's kind of an interesting poll right [TS]

  so I'm sure that this so i want to talk about employment issues just for a [TS]

  second to because this comes back to this Apple brief so let's say Apple [TS]

  losses and is compelled alright hold that hold that thought you know where [TS]

  you're going and it's too long of a segment I want to do i would i'm gonna [TS]

  hold my breath you're gonna let me just say this before i do the sponsor I just [TS]

  want to go back . this is all these are two quotes that Apple pull that you [TS]

  reference them both but this is in it people who have come out and it almost [TS]

  to a surprising degree and i'm impressed at some of the people who have come out [TS]

  in favor of encryption on this but one of them is former NSA and CIA director [TS]

  Michael Hayden that's Michael hated his quote is Apple are Americans are [TS]

  America's more secure America's more safe with unbreakable end and encryption [TS]

  that's that's is let me can't get more clarinet and here's Defense Secretary [TS]

  Ashton Carter so that's it [TS]

  crossing the line over to the Department of Defense data security including [TS]

  encryption is absolutely essential to us [TS]

  I'm not a believer in back doors that into me that the angle there is that it [TS]

  gets to that that the bridge mobile thing where y is the Department of [TS]

  Justice doing this and it's it it doesn't make any sense from a national [TS]

  security perspective and that I mean at point-blank is what the these other guys [TS]

  are saying is that from a national security perspective back doors are [TS]

  disaster and so an apple in their brief is saying that the government is saying [TS]

  you can't take that into consideration and apple in their brief saying I don't [TS]

  know about the legality of the argument of whether the court should take into [TS]

  consideration but Apple is certainly emphasizing that angle [TS]

  alright let's take a break and we'll talk about the employment issue [TS]

  ok I am going to tell you about our good friends at igloo you guys know igloo we [TS]

  all struggle with productivity we're constantly under pressure to accomplish [TS]

  more and do it faster and there's no one definitive way to accomplish that when [TS]

  you're on a small team or small company or or or something like that so we all [TS]

  have our own methods to make things work and we combine you know this sort of [TS]

  chat with this file sharing and other technologies igloo can help you and your [TS]

  team keep doing things your way [TS]

  only better collaboration should not be painful but the glue is pure and simple [TS]

  is an intranet that you'll actually like they have all sorts of ways to customize [TS]

  it and get just the features that you and your team need to fill in the gaps [TS]

  in the system you already use but it's not like when you sign up for it blew [TS]

  you have to suddenly drop everything you're already using and do things the [TS]

  quote igloo way not like that at all [TS]

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  no credit card required at igloo / t TS so just go there you [TS]

  have a team and you're struggling in any way to collaborate just go to a blue [TS]

  software com / tts sign up for free [TS]

  check it out and see how good it could be so my thanks to glue all right let's [TS]

  talk about the employment issue [TS]

  yeah so we're talking twitter because I had this horrible [TS]

  ok so this gets into like Orwell territory [TS]

  yeah at all levels like okay Snow Crash have you ever read Neal Stephenson's [TS]

  Snow Crash embarrassed to say no at as a programmer you would love it and it's [TS]

  all about hacking the brain but one of the themes in it without getting [TS]

  spoilers to like a 20 year old book is this notion that a company wanted to [TS]

  retain the ownership of programming code in their programmers mind so when they [TS]

  left they couldn't use it elsewhere minutes i'm paraphrasing [TS]

  had this thought I Rinus Appaloosas this case the court says you compels them to [TS]

  write what they're calling you know God GOG government govt TOS i'm picturing [TS]

  this meeting tim cook in a room with like 200 people and it's everybody at [TS]

  Apple capable of working on the sizes all right you know what's happened [TS]

  the order has been given we are going to but we always know we're gonna try to [TS]

  appeal it but right now we have been able to stay we need you to do this and [TS]

  we can't order anyone to do it we can we've been ordered [TS]

  but you were all individuals and this needs to happen like what what are those [TS]

  people do one of those people do and what does the court do if all 200 of [TS]

  them suddenly quit and what is Tim do for those people if they suddenly quit I [TS]

  mean I just thinking you can't you can order Apple to do something but [TS]

  employees are at well none of the executives can do this they need [TS]

  specific employees in the engineering level what what happens i also wonder [TS]

  just how many engineers at Apple would be capable of doing this now capable you [TS]

  can obviously hire somebody new and it provides them with the source code and [TS]

  let them study it and study the way the entire system works long enough and [TS]

  somebody who's obviously not even employed by apple today could eventually [TS]

  become capable of doing it so it's you know it i'm not saying it's impossible [TS]

  but I wonder how many people within Apple would be on the team that would be [TS]

  commissioned to undertake this I don't know that it's 200 i think it's probably [TS]

  a significantly lower number of people who work in the area of system-level [TS]

  device security so is it Daniel gelcoat used to work at a pond years ago he [TS]

  apple i think it's he say something response this was like he said there [TS]

  might be a hundred people in the world maybe I'm exaggerating number something [TS]

  nice to look small but it was is right it's not that other people could get [TS]

  something other people can't get up to speed but in order to the then they have [TS]

  to hire other people and it's not even issue of morals like I have to wonder [TS]

  what is your career like inside Apple if you're the gallery guy who says she's [TS]

  not sure whatever the government wants like you do the government OS [TS]

  and it's delivered missed him say thanks for helping us obey the court order and [TS]

  you have no future with us could you be fired for complete for being a good [TS]

  employee could you put on in Siberia and sent to an Alaskan out posted Apple to [TS]

  work on projects there i don't know it's it it's easy to outside you know Ted [TS]

  just abstracted somebody with an apple can do it apple has got a lot of money [TS]

  in the last smart people they can do it but at some level it come it will if it [TS]

  ever if this came to pass it would come down to individuals and I think they [TS]

  have to make a decision and dance for security purposes it would be better to [TS]

  have it be as few people as possible [TS]

  I've often thought about this i wonder what Apple's security policies are for [TS]

  hiring people to work on stuff like this like how do you think about I mean how [TS]

  do they make sure that a secret agent for you know [TS]

  china isn't isn't applying to be an engineer on iOS who would place a [TS]

  backdoor I mean it and it sounds like it start thinking it sounds like something [TS]

  out of a you know james bond movie or something like that but stuff like that [TS]

  has happened right there have been back doors placed in remember the openssl 10 [TS]

  yeah heartbleed well Hartley was up there edge so many and I you know I [TS]

  don't even want to blame China i think that there's a strong suspicion that it [TS]

  was the US government who served is asleep laced a back door in and like an [TS]

  ssl library that was you know we understand there's some purposely what [TS]

  seems he purposely we can encryption that is t seem to have some interaction [TS]

  within the VPN software libraries [TS]

  no it's not implausible I mean this is a thing like what really drives the world [TS]

  is not spy craft in terms of state-run espionage it some industrial espionage [TS]

  is a huge thing it's huge happens continuously this is not like a movie [TS]

  thing it's there are people working inside companies constantly selling [TS]

  secrets to competitors and what do you think we need for them [TS]

  what do you do when somebody a very talented programmer [TS]

  yeah with a security background who without lying about their employee [TS]

  history at all but has spent you know like eight years working for the NSA [TS]

  applies to work on that security had a few laughs but if they're not if they're [TS]

  being honest it could be a tremendous higher and we did I tell you the story [TS]

  ready i once met guys from the CIA print shop and they said we gave the business [TS]

  cards and they said we have business cards we can't give them to you [TS]

  we should you're serious they said yeah we kinda outside the building so like [TS]

  how do you get a reference from the NSA for your job at apple do I don't know [TS]

  but you know but what you know it i it must occur to them you know and it's not [TS]

  anyway that's we're getting off the point of what happens if everybody who [TS]

  works at apple refuses to do this and and I or even isn't this a majority like [TS]

  you need I mean I said 200 probably because it's like project managers and [TS]

  like those people who have the expertise and there's the people who support those [TS]

  people and people i mean who has the key who has the codes that give them access [TS]

  to like the root certificates that are used all this stuff involves a very [TS]

  small number of people but what if they all I mean look at you and I were that [TS]

  position I think we know we do we quit right quick and then can the government [TS]

  compelling could the government courts say you're not allowed to quit right I I [TS]

  can't imagine but could that I don't know the legality and it's even easier [TS]

  in today's the current job market in in Silicon Valley know it is you know it's [TS]

  like I'm being I just want to be out all day that I'm not even trying to say that [TS]

  it's an act of nobility it would be I would like to think and and and i would [TS]

  like to think that I would act on principle but if you just want to get [TS]

  down to the cold hard facts of well you know you've got a mortgage to pay and [TS]

  kids to put through college or whatever it's like somebody who has extensive [TS]

  experience on Apple's security team is not going to have a hard time getting [TS]

  another job now absolutely not right they probably get like $MONEY [TS]

  million-dollar bonuses that are still being handled handed out when they go to [TS]

  work for one of the unicorn right and it might break the heart because maybe they [TS]

  prefer to work at Apple but we know rather do good work for Google than do [TS]

  destructive work for apple i mean it's it's it it to me [TS]

  destructive work for apple i mean it's it's it it to me [TS]

  is not an Outland just said scenario at all and i do think i do think i think [TS]

  that people who work in encryption it's like you said that it spans the [TS]

  political game and that's one of the things that I really like about this is [TS]

  that in in what I you know in my sideline as a amateur art Twitter [TS]

  political columnist I one of the things that depresses me about the current [TS]

  state of decades long discourse in the United States is the polarization of of [TS]

  politics and that so many issues are so clearly polarized and that we've we've [TS]

  self sorted on these various lines into the two parties and that there's no [TS]

  interchange between III it does my heart it warms my heart that on this [TS]

  particular issue it that it doesn't fall on on one line or the other and if [TS]

  anything because the DOJ is part of the executive branch you have I would have [TS]

  to say that you know the Democrats have more responsibility in this case with [TS]

  Apple than the Republicans I mean there certainly are Republicans who I've seen [TS]

  call for apple should just open the iphone [TS]

  oh yeah but you so I'm sure you watch the John Oliver so I guess on with yet [TS]

  brilliant the Lindsey Graham thing i didn't realize Lindsey Graham had [TS]

  recanted his position to watch Lindsey Graham say up I was wrong [TS]

  I've been better informed now you're like coming to Jesus moment he can be [TS]

  convinced then [TS]

  wow I mean I know he's got the easy side also of you know they want to support [TS]

  law and order which is a basic fundamental GOP stance but he also can [TS]

  be opposing the event Obama administration by doing so even with [TS]

  that I I was just like oh my god well they they gotta explain it to him and he [TS]

  accepted the logical was explained right i think Darrell is a who I generally [TS]

  disagree with oh god I was a sweet i retweeted him today on the CC he's so [TS]

  right in some places and he's he understand to a certain degree i mean i [TS]

  know he had a background in technology before you got into politics but at [TS]

  least at the layman's understanding that you would hope that our legislators [TS]

  would have he's got it he is sweet [TS]

  he's been really good I here's an interesting just a side note get back to [TS]

  1776 this is a musical podcast now [TS]

  that's the bit so imagine you're the engineer at apple or set of Engineers [TS]

  and you're the people who write the code that's been compelled by the government [TS]

  to essentially the tray humanity [TS]

  I mean comes tablets that I'm not even exaggerating the case in 1776 musical it [TS]

  draws on there no apparent records that just around came from the Continental [TS]

  Congress because they were worried about being intercepted all kinds of stuff [TS]

  there's 1776 a re-creation from later remembrances of people and other sources [TS]

  there's a judge judge Wilson is from the Pennsylvania delegation so it's you got [TS]

  dickinson one side as opposed to waiting for dependency of franklin on the other [TS]

  is for it [TS]

  this is a key vote Wilson who had supported dickinson I sort of moderation [TS]

  changes essentially last-minute declares himself its dramatic moment in the [TS]

  musical but it's also essentially what happened in reality here's the thing he [TS]

  didn't want to be this is the motivation given to him he didn't want to be the [TS]

  person who killed Liberty he wanted to be kind of you know under-the-radar and [TS]

  it's like everyone remember judge Wilson as the person who killed American [TS]

  liberty you know and you think about that the programmers you like maybe 20 [TS]

  people or 15 people on the team that do it and you're the people who killed [TS]

  encryption for everybody [TS]

  how do you do that that's a traumatic thing you'll be put through if you have [TS]

  that kind of conscience right there's a personal security angle here and apple [TS]

  has mentioned this in there i think in a brief but if not a brief certainly in [TS]

  the one of the supplements you know there's the testimony from craig [TS]

  federighi and and yeah [TS]

  I forget the guys name that has got big long name that starts with an n sorry [TS]

  it's a Eric annoying fonder right now [TS]

  yeah that's interminably it's a big long-term Germanic name and and but part [TS]

  of it is that there's a personal security angle to this where right now [TS]

  nobody knows how to create as Apple calls it government OS version of OS [TS]

  that you can install on top of an existing iphone without destroying it [TS]

  some crazed and then bypass the the protections against the touchpad which [TS]

  once you get rid of those protections it's easy [TS]

  Amy and and it obviously using a long alphanumeric password or passphrase i [TS]

  guess i should say would actually you know would significantly help increase [TS]

  the security of your phone but even the six digit passcode it would take longer [TS]

  to brute force but once you bypass the protections you know you're talking [TS]

  about like days or weeks not [TS]

  yeah you know years it there are jailbreaks for the phone zero-day you [TS]

  know what are the zero-day exploits there hit that have been sold on the [TS]

  open market and if there's one that sold for like over a million dollars last [TS]

  year like a way to you know that good at security form put out like a bounty and [TS]

  said if you can get us into you know a jailbreaker on an iphone that under the [TS]

  following conditions like let's say like just by sending the text message or just [TS]

  by opening this URL in safari sold for like a million dollars [TS]

  can you imagine what the black market value of government OS would be it again [TS]

  it's not just sounds like we're talking about cloak-and-dagger you know James [TS]

  Bond Jason Bourne movie stuff but it's not it's real right did but imagine if [TS]

  the identities of the engineers at Apple who knew how to make it and knew how to [TS]

  you know knew the details of it [TS]

  it would put them in some measure of personal risk it really i mean i think [TS]

  this right now they must be to imagine if you have some rest secrets i'm sure [TS]

  those people already Apple security must already have eyes on them both from the [TS]

  perspective and the dangerous side like are these people going off to do stuff [TS]

  you probably watched but also someone trying to kidnap imagine if your [TS]

  family's kidnapping you know how to do whatever it's kind of why it you're like [TS]

  yeah here's the key [TS]

  I mean and that's just now before government os's is built right [TS]

  Apple has made the analogy and I think this you know this comes to you know the [TS]

  way that the bill of rights to meet you know protects it acts of your conscience [TS]

  you know I mean that's a big part of what the First Amendment is about Apple [TS]

  has made the analogy to like a bit what it could have pharmaceutical company be [TS]

  forced to produce the serum for a lethal injection which is a real word world [TS]

  political problem right now we have that is not a political either right where [TS]

  the the states in the united states that still have the death penalty because [TS]

  it's been banned in the rest of the civilized world and is only you know [TS]

  it's really only practiced in the first world in the United States and only then [TS]

  in certain states the company you know whatever they used to use to to give [TS]

  people the lethal injection there's no more of the serum you're not getting [TS]

  really know you want me really uncomfortable about their BuzzFeed has [TS]

  had some really amazing coverage about this people selling drugs from india and [TS]

  so forth fascinating and the state's refusing to disclose information that [TS]

  they should be about whether obtaining the drugs from right all right I will [TS]

  look that up BuzzFeed's really cool injections right because can you can-can [TS]

  estate get you know this is getting off into the weeds on on the death penalty [TS]

  but can estate use a substance to put a prisoner to death isn't like [TS]

  fda-approved and why wouldn't you know it gets out of the question of wine [TS]

  world with the FDA approved a substance that there [TS]

  that kills people but well so so good but apples question stands could the all [TS]

  writs Act be used for if the kid the government say okay we don't have [TS]

  anymore this stuff let's go to let's go to Pfizer and compel pfizer to come up [TS]

  with a serum that would have the following quote qualities you know that [TS]

  it's you know painless and put you to death [TS]

  yeah what this is a think one of the great arguments i think it's very [TS]

  directly related to what you're talking about here is Apple trying to show what [TS]

  i think is they'd like to say settled law that code is speech and other people [TS]

  maybe less secure in that I think it's pretty settled i think the Supreme Court [TS]

  has really made that clear and the FBI and DOJ would like to say that code is [TS]

  not speech when it's functional code there's a thing where apples are pretty [TS]

  killing the FBI sprays right in the brief there's no such thing as [TS]

  functional code all code is the same thing so you cannot can split that it's [TS]

  unconstitutional to compelled speech that is practically i am pretty sure [TS]

  that is an overriding principle i'm not a constitutional lawyer i'm not sure but [TS]

  I'm pretty sure I keep reading what you cannot compel speech no court can compel [TS]

  speech it can compel you to testify or it can paralyze you for not testifying [TS]

  for not providing information but you cannot compel someone to speech and you [TS]

  cannot compel a programmer to program few of the wise twitter twitter mirrors [TS]

  were saying women it if corporations are people can you compel corporations to [TS]

  speech given that they are now we know under citizens united and other girl [TS]

  thinks should have essentially the same right so can you compel Apple to speech [TS]

  of that involves code even that's the thing about this brief is Apple's [TS]

  hacking away at many many many different uh no trees with poison fruit and I [TS]

  think the code of speech was very compelling even if the all writs one [TS]

  which is also compelling falls down [TS]

  yes i agree on both of those parts that to me that's that's the main thrust of [TS]

  apples twofold argument is that they can't be compelled to do this because [TS]

  it's speech and it's deeply offensive to to apple and the employees who would be [TS]

  you know subject to carry it out and that the all writs Act cannot be used to [TS]

  compel extraordinary action [TS]

  and to me that's when you read the government thing and if you almost feel [TS]

  bad for the lawyers who wrote the government's brief because it's I don't [TS]

  think it was their decision to it's not like James Comey had to write the brief [TS]

  it's not like Loretta Lynch the Attorney General wrote the brief it's like it got [TS]

  assigned to these you know the two lawyers who wrote it and I almost feel [TS]

  bad for them because i feel like it's like when you're you know that's what [TS]

  it's like to be a lawyer you don't necessarily don't get to pick the side [TS]

  you know I mean like like they might know there they might well know that [TS]

  their arguments stands on nothing but thin air but they still gotta write the [TS]

  brief there left arguing at the the government is left trying to argue [TS]

  because they know that they all writs Act is supposed to fill in the gaps of [TS]

  statutory law so they left trying to argue that the use of the already [TS]

  attacked here isn't compelling Apple to do something extraordinary but it's it's [TS]

  really really hard to do that you know and and adjust of it is that the alright [TS]

  I've you know for people who are you know aren't paying attention that all [TS]

  rataxes supposed to fill in the gaps that isn't covered by existing law so if [TS]

  there's a law that says this and law that says that but there's a minor issue [TS]

  that's in between there the all writs Act fills it in and I think one of the [TS]

  examples the government gave is that somebody can be compelled to give [TS]

  testimony in court like you said mom what if their testimony will take three [TS]

  days [TS]

  what where do they go right and so maybe there's no law that says that the all [TS]

  writs Act would fill it in and that the government can just do what's reasonable [TS]

  and put the guy up in a hotel you know the government will put you up in a [TS]

  hotel for three days so you still have to testify for the full three days but [TS]

  even if there's no law that says that when a you know that says when a witness [TS]

  has to testify for more than one day the government will put them up in a hotel [TS]

  it's just that the all writs Act can fill in and and fill in the gap in the [TS]

  situation like that Apple's argument and I think it's extremely compelling is [TS]

  that it if the government wants to compel a company to do what they're [TS]

  saying they want Apple to do it has to be passed through legislation you have [TS]

  to pass a law that says yes [TS]

  in this case you would have to do this [TS]

  because otherwise you're at you know it because it's an extraordinary thing any [TS]

  other analogies I thought about and I want to see what you think about this [TS]

  but so for example famously I think it's the sixties i might be getting the time [TS]

  wrong but when ralph nader wrote the what was the book unsafe at any speed [TS]

  yeah about the horrible state of a car crash safety at you know that and wanted [TS]

  to legislate that in order to get car companies to mandate that they put seat [TS]

  belts in cars and the car industry pushed back against mandatory seatbelts [TS]

  under the argument that putting seat belts in cars made cars look unsafe that [TS]

  if you got up right now this is true i'm making the river god [TS]

  alright so they said no we don't know this is not a good idea because it you [TS]

  know people love driving cars and they feel safe and happy driving cars but if [TS]

  you go in there and there's the safety harnesses you know safety belts it's [TS]

  going to make people think that they're dangerous [TS]

  that's not it it sounds silly in hindsight and we have now have a lot of [TS]

  statistics that backup that it's you know obviously hasn't stopped Americans [TS]

  from driving and we have statistics to prove that they're you know that safety [TS]

  advances that have been mandated have been tremendous Boone's to to public [TS]

  safety but it's not a ridiculous argument it's not ridiculous that that [TS]

  that the logic of the car manufacturers it it was probably wrong but that didn't [TS]

  it it didn't happen through the all writs Act it happened throughout you [TS]

  know real legislation passed through Congress that man ended things like this [TS]

  and that's the way it should be and the other now Jack and think of this isn't [TS]

  national it's all gone [TS]

  local like state by state and city by city but one of the great things of of [TS]

  my lifetime as someone who really really has always been bothered by cigarette [TS]

  smoke is the passing of laws that that get cigarettes out of bars and [TS]

  restaurants and our workplaces and stuff like that [TS]

  now it was a common common and rip oft-repeated refrain [TS]

  especially from bar owners that if you made smoking illegal and bars it would [TS]

  draw it with business would dry up because people who smoked would go to [TS]

  private establishments instead of public ones because they're not going to stop [TS]

  smoking while they drink and there it did common sense that says that that [TS]

  argument might hold water right it might there's there's some logic to that I and [TS]

  again that it this wasn't done through the all writs Act it was you have to [TS]

  pass an actual law and fight and make that argument and listen to the people [TS]

  the bar owners arguing and now I picked both of those examples the seatbelt [TS]

  mandatory seatbelts and the the getting cigarettes out of bars and restaurants i [TS]

  pick those specifically because i know that those arguments are on the wrong [TS]

  side right that it's it is my opinion it's correct that seat belts and and you [TS]

  know other safety devices and chrono stay very high standards for craft [TS]

  survivability are good idea and that I think it's a very good idea for public [TS]

  health that cigarettes are are not our band most restaurants and bars now but I [TS]

  still think that it was right that they had to pass legislation to do it so in [TS]

  this case to me with Apple being on the right side it's even more important that [TS]

  if you want to force them to do this terrible thing that you have to fight it [TS]

  out in the legislature yeah I think you're absolutely right those are great [TS]

  examples and we can also get to like gun control is part of this issue too is [TS]

  like what can be done under regulations existing regulations in force and what [TS]

  requires lost we passed and whatever side you are about the you know how many [TS]

  guns should be out there going to be out there all in private hands whatever the [TS]

  side you are i think i would argue i would rather have a legislative solution [TS]

  than a regulatory one even regulatory one might be better [TS]

  whether that's for allowing broader gun ownership or narrower ownership because [TS]

  without the legislative solution an executive make a decision it doesn't [TS]

  lack that consensus so we have the same situation here is like do you want the [TS]

  government to use a 240 something year old law with [TS]

  extranged logic to upset the future of privacy education protection when the [TS]

  clea more recently addressed it or didn't address it in specific ways or do [TS]

  you want legislators you know regardless again of who which political parties in [TS]

  charge is not actually a political issue in that sense it's a political issue of [TS]

  how this would be addressed in a comprehensive way through a process that [TS]

  has various you know the three branches of government in the checks and balances [TS]

  I don't really want an executive agency to push through something like this and [TS]

  you know I despite having a minute i voted for obama gets twice and but i [TS]

  don't really like the extensive use of presidential orders executive orders and [TS]

  regulatory moves that he's using I understand why he's doing it [TS]

  I don't think there is long-lasting and I don't think they're I mean I know [TS]

  where the middle intransigence and you had with gridlock you have to try things [TS]

  and it's so forth so I understand whether being done but they wanted the [TS]

  lasting effect they want they don't indicate a change of policy where [TS]

  something like the Affordable Care Act they were able to actually get that [TS]

  passed it became law and you see how implacable it is to resistance and look [TS]

  at the supreme court chief justice voting in favor surprising everyone in [TS]

  favor of ACA under the Commerce Clause and you know all these decisions that [TS]

  have come through where the AC I had a cas had some the you know fall back [TS]

  mostly been upheld because it was law as opposed to regulatory interpretation or [TS]

  strain regulatory interpretation presidential order so and a lot of [TS]

  presidential orders recently have been thrown down by the courts at various [TS]

  levels and and well in some have not been upheld so far I'm you went to gun [TS]

  so i'll i'll go too high no cons like it was very but I think you did I thought I [TS]

  hopefully I think we've done so in a way that is amenable to anybody on either [TS]

  side issue i'm gonna go to abortion and ruth bader ginsburg Ruth Bader guess the [TS]

  game we're playing guns abortion all writs Act Ruth Bader Ginsburg has argued [TS]

  and I think surprising many people long argued and from before she was on the [TS]

  Supreme Court I think it was a paper she wrote that kind of got her to the [TS]

  supreme court ruling that this right that that roe v wade was actually a [TS]

  setback [TS]

  in the long run for abortion rights because it was a sweeping change by the [TS]

  Supreme Court and rather than letting it work its way through the legislative [TS]

  branch which would have given it a lot more that things work out better and are [TS]

  more broadly accepted when they go through the legislature then when the [TS]

  judiciary passes takes takes matters into its own hands and again not I don't [TS]

  even want to just don't even want to touch on this side of which way it [TS]

  should go in a pretty clear my my views on it or no but it doesn't matter though [TS]

  I think that the basic argument though that if that roe v wade has remained [TS]

  controversial in a way that a legislative solution which the US was [TS]

  probably heading to at the time in the seventies would have had more staying [TS]

  power [TS]

  it's almost remarkable to the extent that roe v wade is remains so [TS]

  radioactively controversial 40-some years later 40-44 years later that a [TS]

  forty-four-year-old supreme court decision is is still considered [TS]

  contentious is it you know shows the the logic of of Ginsburg art Ginsburg's [TS]

  argument I I have to agree with that too is right it does not matter what your [TS]

  stance on abortion a legislative decision that was made and carried out [TS]

  at a national level and then enforced and refined by Supreme Court rulings [TS]

  that narrow door or broaden and on more limited grounds people would be arguing [TS]

  about it in it in a different way because they would have felt like the [TS]

  price you know they would be looking to overturn the law as opposed to trying to [TS]

  figure out how to change a constitutional president right and maybe [TS]

  ultimately would become enshrined as a constitutional president you would have [TS]

  had you know a row law and the law having passed I think in the seventies I [TS]

  think the GOP and Democratic Party the time I think we easily have passed a law [TS]

  that i think i actually think it would have not been [TS]

  that difficult to produce consensus then so let's say that happens you gotta roll [TS]

  law and then some row based decisions later that refined it that you know [TS]

  people would still be debating but we still be active but that wouldn't be [TS]

  this notion that it could be a just a small tweak in the composition the court [TS]

  would change this for everyone because you would have to get the law of return [TS]

  or you'd have to have a radically different Supreme Court interpretation [TS]

  and that's an ongoing issue in accordance with the critiques of Scalia [TS]

  as an original list is that he wasn't as an original list he didn't care about [TS]

  President as much as pristine courts did and you can see the liberal and some [TS]

  conservative justices going off on rejecting on the fact that decisions [TS]

  overturned sometimes relatively recent presidents which is not historically the [TS]

  case it's usually long periods of time before presidents are returned by one go [TS]

  from one court to another right so yeah I think you're I mean it's so in this [TS]

  case let's say it's AI think Congress addressing it [TS]

  and interestingly giving Congress has approached this I wouldn't be surprised [TS]

  if Congress could reach consensus maybe not this one but the next one about the [TS]

  direction it should take that would not be as Extreme as the administration's [TS]

  position and would not require this level of action if it did then you might [TS]

  have a constitutional issue if they try to enshrine with the FBI is trying to as [TS]

  regulatory action [TS]

  the big difference here like we just mentioned a few minutes ago though is [TS]

  that on abortion it's clearly polarized between the two parties admit of the [TS]

  rovi wait only exacerbated that this issue this issue of encryption it [TS]

  splendidly so is crosses the political spectrum and I almost wonder whether if [TS]

  if the DOJ wins this case against apple [TS]

  whether that actually polarizes Congress to pass a law to enshrine the right to [TS]

  strong encryption not be interesting left-to-right could join hands around [TS]

  the side that's that's always a good that it might but it might be the like [TS]

  losing in court might inspire Congress to do that in a way that not having [TS]

  picked this fight at all the FBI might have been better off you know from their [TS]

  desire wrong had a desire to to to keep these devices as accessible as possible [TS]

  because the other thing to the thing that's cross-platform the other thing [TS]

  that is definitely cross-platform and it's just common sense but it's easy to [TS]

  overlook is that that branches of government that are three branches of [TS]

  government you don't take well to the interpretation of their powers by [TS]

  another branch so like you said but a president obama has taken and bush did [TS]

  too but both of them in the face of opposition in Congress have taken two [TS]

  executive orders and Congress whatever the order is regardless of it does not [TS]

  take poorly does not take well to that and i think that when when the [TS]

  legislature when the when the judicial branch when a judge passes dar makes in [TS]

  order that Congress sees as that should be something that we decide it doesn't [TS]

  matter what the issue is it it just stiffened their spine is a bristle and I [TS]

  think rightly so that's sort of the way the system is designed to work [TS]

  yeah and yeah it's true I think I mean we can take this to from the legislature [TS]

  to the people right we keep bringing these things [TS]

  polls show that you know the support for apple the FBI evenly split and like all [TS]

  right let's see what questions you ask the questions are too big i would like [TS]

  to see this question asked in a like a be testing so one case you say should [TS]

  Apple give the FBI the contents of the phone or whatever the questions are the [TS]

  task yes now and our the phrase right [TS]

  the other is should the FBI be allowed with legal warrant from a judge to [TS]

  access your phone anytime they deem there's a legal necessity for and [TS]

  obtain all the contents absolutely in plain text you want some more of that I [TS]

  think you get a different response if he said he said you know should judge allow [TS]

  the FBI to examine the contents your phone anytime [TS]

  well and I got any time but for it goodnight criminal action with a warrant [TS]

  it's really hard to pull too because it's because it's easy for a lay person [TS]

  to believe in the magic solution of a way for the F for the government to get [TS]

  in but nobody else that only the government you know which you kind of [TS]

  have to be to gently informed of the basic way that encryption works to [TS]

  understand just how do you know how dangerous and an impossible it is to say [TS]

  the only people who can get in our the US federal government with the warrant [TS]

  it just doesn't work that way once you create you know once you create a [TS]

  backdoor I know it's right so there's like you can actually ask any basically [TS]

  we're seeing is for this poll we need to get 10,000 people we can give a two-day [TS]

  class on cryptography and operating systems too and after that we're going [TS]

  to ask you a few questions like yeah yeah and what if what if you just [TS]

  proceed the question with remember like 20 minutes ago 30 minutes ago when i [TS]

  read the two quotes from that the the Department of Defense the what he called [TS]

  the who's in charge of the department offense the Secretary of Defense US [TS]

  Secretary sarcastic and the former head of the NSA and CIA and just read those [TS]

  two shorts clear statements and then say do you think Apple should be forced to [TS]

  comply with this and then see if the poll results change and it's almost [TS]

  certain it would change to some degree weather it would change dramatically or [TS]

  mildly but it would have to have some effect so you know I I don't go that is [TS]

  why we don't have this is you know it's exactly why we don't just vote on [TS]

  everything you know california-style just have voter initiatives on all this [TS]

  stuff that's why we have a representative democracy now and that's [TS]

  I mean this is the problem sometimes are often with jury trials right we've seen [TS]

  this with civil trial specifically but you have with criminal to is like how do [TS]

  you get average people who who should be able to solve I mean in many kinds of [TS]

  cases of criminality or [TS]

  civil liability on ordinary people with reasonable intelligence should be able [TS]

  to spend a few days in a courtroom learn enough to be able to make an [TS]

  adjudication that's that's ostensibly fair or reasonable right right with the [TS]

  judge overseeing it but how do you do that with encryption how do you do that [TS]

  with most these technical topics or user interface design like you can't and [TS]

  every outcome is going to be arbitrary when placed in front of a jury [TS]

  it's anything with poles to poles are a reflection of how a jury would probably [TS]

  deal with it which would be you know and so one of the things so Tim Cook of wild [TS]

  back at some point you know a while but it's all been within the last month but [TS]

  at one point had compared it to the creation of this government os/2 cancer [TS]

  and I think a better analogy I've been thinking about this bothered me ever [TS]

  since and a better analogy to me it's close but to me it's a better analogy is [TS]

  chemical weapons or biological weapons and I've seen other people make this [TS]

  comparison that creation of this is like creating a biological weapon and you can [TS]

  say oh we're gonna let you keep it in a secure place and will read it and we're [TS]

  gonna have we're going to devise a very precise carefully planned procedure for [TS]

  the application of it so that it's only applied in this one specific thing I'm [TS]

  but that there is a very good argument that the best way to avoid the dangers [TS]

  of of biological weapons getting out of your control is to never create them in [TS]

  the first place and that to me is where the cancer analogy falls down is it [TS]

  nobody's created cancer cancer is not know I but i think it really matters [TS]

  no no I think I think your true it's not an intent it's a byproduct of biological [TS]

  processes and maybe pesticides and pragmatics and so forth right yeah [TS]

  absolutely that's fine ever thought of technology that's right and i think it's [TS]

  it's a little I think it i haven't seen Apple repeat that analogy and I think [TS]

  they realize that it's not it's not it it's not a good enough analogy right [TS]

  because there's this that the part of the argument that are at the entirety of [TS]

  the government's argument is that this could be controlled and it would never [TS]

  get out it it given the right precautions it would it would never get [TS]

  out of control [TS]

  and that i can think about this like what if you know ok government says you [TS]

  hospital X we need you [TS]

  sisters of charitable mercy we need you to open to open heart surgery on this [TS]

  individual who has a micro SD card and planted in his heart and we need that [TS]

  data and we and so the church you know the the hospital tries to oppose it [TS]

  their order to do so a court order them to do what surgeon goes in and does the [TS]

  open-heart surgery right you know to do that i mean that's a one-off thing to [TS]

  it's not even it's bad and it's like okay well Ulysses possible well we have [TS]

  a thousand open-heart surgeries we need to schedule tomorrow and we will have [TS]

  surgeons trained in this now too so it's very easy to do [TS]

  no no no no now that he has a chip in the heart [TS]

  alright let me just take a break here and thank our next sponsor and it's our [TS]

  good friends at audible has more than 180,000 audiobooks and spoken [TS]

  word audio products and you can get a 30-day free trial at / talk [TS]

  show if you want to listen to it audible has it you mean you could literally I [TS]

  think with a hundred $80,000 280,000 audio but you could probably spend every [TS]

  minute every waking minute of the rest your life and not not finished listening [TS]

  to the awkward the audible library they have audio books from every genre you [TS]

  can imagine [TS]

  anytime anywhere and you can play audible audiobooks on phones tablets [TS]

  computers most candles all the modern candles and even ipods audio books are [TS]

  great for flights [TS]

  they're great for road trips they are great to fill up your daily commute [TS]

  I think it's a great solution for everybody who wishes that I did the talk [TS]

  show more frequently fill in the gaps with books from audio from audible it's [TS]

  it's just a tremendous resource for anybody who has the time to listen to [TS]

  stuff like that i like to go when I walk and a run through the city and take a [TS]

  jog or whatever I want to have something to listen to [TS]

  so in its it it drives me nuts if I don't have something to listen to with [TS] you'll never ever run out of [TS]

  love to listen 280,000 books free free trial just go to / talk show [TS]

  my thanks to audible for sponsoring the show once again unbelievable library [TS]

  inaudible alright what else should we talk about glam tiny phones tiny phones [TS]

  for tiny hands [TS]

  bulgarian handed phones tiny tiny and i love the idea that Donald Trump is [TS]

  bothered by it but it just keeps sending it says the photocopies of his hands [TS]

  right well what is with the driver in greater harder right Eric few years it's [TS]

  not like it at once like it's great cars with every couple years he gets his [TS]

  story for those of you know the story i'm paraphrasing I got put in the [TS]

  showings it's such a funny story that's so telling as to Donald Trump's [TS]

  personality but the story is i think i might even predated the Vanity Fair was [TS]

  it for spy magazine always person i think was a spy that's right I i well [TS]

  but Graydon Carter has long been the editor at Vanity Fair and before that [TS]

  was the editor at the late beloved Spy magazine which was just fantastic wrote [TS]

  a profile of trumpet like it in the eighties and i think he called him a [TS]

  small handed Vulgarian small small small finger small things involving heard [TS]

  anything like that and in the decade sense [TS]

  Graydon Carter since you said recently that every you know once a year maybe a [TS]

  2 years ago by but then it gets another one every couple every couple of years [TS]

  he gets a letter from Trump with like a picture from a magazine pulled out and I [TS]

  in gold sharpie a circle around the hands and then just like a handwritten [TS]

  note that says look at those hands not small that I so you know there's a super [TS]

  PAC political activity was registered by a portland oregon man called Trump has [TS]

  tiny hands and the federal election commission on monday so the FCC has been [TS]

  deadlocked with two members Republican appointed to democratic appointed [TS]

  members destroying the ability for the FCC to enforce election law [TS]

  and it's been going on for years because Congress want to prove the third . he [TS]

  would give the balance of power of Democrats under obama money [TS]

  one of the many and transgender points right I FBC acts against this guy on [TS]

  Monday obviously can't do anything they act against this guy requiring the [TS]

  changes Trump has tiny hands back so he's changed his name [TS]

  it's now the Americans against insecure billionaires with tiny hands and this [TS]

  political action [TS]

  oh my god that could do that Trump famously was a however however large or [TS]

  small his hands are a few years ago remember he tweeted something to the [TS]

  effect of that this is before the iphone 6 came out that Apple needs to put out a [TS]

  big iphone you know get with the times or sometimes that's funny yeah so trunk [TS]

  from however small his hands are is a fan of large phones through increased my [TS]

  wife like small phones and when I used for she's an iphone 5 that is failing [TS]

  and when i use it when she hands it to me and she makes type large as a little [TS]

  vision issues so she makes type large and i use it and i feel like i'm using a [TS]

  fairy phone and like little tiny fairies use this phone is so I'm like how many [TS]

  years that i use a phone that was that size or smaller and it seemed fine i [TS]

  have an iphone 6s and now the iphone 5 size 5 exercise seems ridiculous but [TS]

  she's waiting [TS]

  her phone is failing if the SE ships are it is announced on monday as expected [TS]

  then she's a customer i will Charles the customer i would argue that in its [TS]

  certain sense i don't know what the volume is but in a in a hand feel sense [TS]

  i would argue that the iphone 5 and 5s are the smallest iphone their apple ever [TS]

  made and I know that the screen got big hole it went from three and a half four [TS]

  but it's so much thinner that to me it feels smaller and I i have my little [TS]

  Museum here bored I iphones uh-huh that do because of the thinnest it feels [TS]

  smaller in the hand that it feels like the smallest iphone the every that that [TS]

  is probably at your right by volume and like screen edge dimensions yes maybe by [TS]

  volume it's not because of the extra length of to accommodate the foreign [TS]

  screen as opposed to 3.5 but because you hold it sideways typically you don't [TS]

  really hold it and end [TS]

  that the volume that matters is sort of like the you know like the bottom half [TS]

  of the phone that's true or like the bottom you know 23 inches is the really [TS]

  the volume that matters in that the whatever sticks up off the top doesn't [TS]

  really count [TS]

  I think it's gonna be a big seller i hope it actually is a real thing seems [TS]

  very reliably so that's a real thing and it's it's fun to watch [TS]

  I mean Apple has that matrix who did that a few years ago before something [TS]

  came with the ipad mini something came out where someone built this likes this [TS]

  fan of like all the devices and sizes and prices they said here are the holes [TS]

  than apple released devices that fit in those holes are filthy [TS]

  the SEC is absolutely one of those holes right now I i think it's fascinating [TS]

  that here we are we're recording on Wednesday mark 16 and I think the shows [TS]

  going to air on thursday i don't know when people listen I hopefully they'll [TS]

  listen before the event on monday but who knows what while leak at the last [TS]

  possible minute but it's fascinating to me that the phone hasn't leaked and I [TS]

  know that there was like a CAD drawing that one of the rumor sites i don't know [TS]

  if it was 9to5 mac or macrumors probably 9to5 mac but they had like a CAD [TS]

  rendering that they then interpreted as a you know made like a rendering out of [TS]

  but we don't really know like the parts didn't leak there's nobody who's held up [TS]

  a part that says here's the you know here's the casing for the iphone SE and [TS]

  I actually wonder if it's shipping like a month in there but i can't imagine [TS]

  they can do the events a and you can order this for shipping on may first and [TS]

  only available day and date her to believe government variety right yeah I [TS]

  think government says by friday which is actually kind of interesting my you know [TS]

  just my own selfish interests that it's i'm going to the event will be at the [TS]

  event I gas since i'm going that i'll probably get one to review but if [TS]

  they're shipping on friday i don't i'm not quite sure how how I write a review [TS]

  before it actually ships [TS]

  yeah that's it it seems the only other through monday event [TS]

  yeah although the other hand maybe it's very easy device to review its it's back [TS]

  to the old sighs and it's got the new specs and you know figure out like the [TS]

  chips [TS]

  I think I'm gonna like it I think I'm going to I don't know that i'll switch [TS]

  from the forest seven but i might be very tempted to I'd I it's it's gonna be [TS]

  a close call for me I i love that there i mean if this happens it seems so [TS]

  likely i love that they're doing it because that we talked to talk to some [TS]

  other folks about the notion that we're going to post numbering that maybe this [TS]

  is or maybe this model never gets number i think you bring about the ask you is [TS]

  that like was some point but you know the ipad 3 was that called the ipad 2 in [TS]

  the ipad 3 then it became the ipad and numbers are bad for Apple except they're [TS]

  trying to create demand like a poll of demand for the newer thing and I think [TS]

  sales figures and growth make sure that they just need to be shipping out [TS]

  devices maybe not getting the expectation that it's every September in [TS]

  the same way and the new plans I mean the thing is with a lot of people [TS]

  shipping to shifting to installment plans that allow an upgrade after either [TS]

  12 or 18 months i think we're going to see seems like the majority of people in [TS]

  the US will wind up on a plan with either 12 or 18 months refresh and some [TS]

  with like a you know 20 or 24 month where they don't pay me extra for that [TS]

  that's going to flood the market with older phones in some fashion will be [TS]

  resold or there'll be no refurbished right and available and then you have [TS]

  all these people like I mean hey look i'm not an installment plan by getting [TS]

  an iphone 7 or whatever it's called probably because I feel like that's my [TS]

  Apple fee is now I'm paying know what is 56 bucks a month i'll just be that [TS]

  forever for my phone and I'll just always have the freshest phone like that [TS]

  does not seem like a penalty to me the way their marketing it [TS]

  yeah to me I think it'll probably personally come down to image quality [TS]

  I think that cool or you know for the camera that if you want your 12 [TS]

  megapixel one well I don't care about the megapixel ok I'm sorry but like I [TS]

  had her right eye care the field I want to the field [TS]

  well you're not going to get that in this camp you know I know it's not going [TS]

  to move [TS]

  it's not going to move that forward but if to me it looks like i can take the [TS]

  same quality pictures in the same lighting conditions as my my phone 600 [TS]

  Morrissey yes more or less that it you know at least to my eyes it looks like [TS]

  i'm getting the same image quality I think I would [TS]

  for the smaller phone i like the way it feels in my hand I like the way it is [TS]

  smaller in my pocket and I to be honest the majority of what I read on the phone [TS]

  is Twitter and tweets because they're so small it doesn't matter that i can see [TS]

  more of them at a time on a larger screen who and I you know I I read I to [TS]

  read a lot of articles on mobile safari but I don't I never mind it that much [TS]

  you know like to me both screens aren't small and constrained for reading [TS]

  articles and they just reflow them with the in a reader view or something like [TS]

  that so who the big screen to me isn't all that appealing i see you know it is [TS]

  certainly a trade-off but it turns of the smaller device sized i don't know i [TS]

  think i'm on the fence me and malts yeah I like time in the smaller phone i mean [TS]

  this comes back to apparently were both guys so there's an issue there which is [TS]

  that we don't have the tiny unusable pockets or no pockets that a lot of [TS]

  women have their clothing my friend erin mckean who's that word Nick the head of [TS]

  that great site thats collecting like open source of definitions of words a [TS]

  non-profit project she likes micro dresses makes wonderful stuff what about [TS]

  it for the magazine years ago and she puts pockets and stuff it's just people [TS]

  stopping all the time where you have pockets in your clothing other happens [TS]

  like I've made the dress that's those pockets of it was encountered this all [TS]

  the time in my wife wears you know stylish but not like um like fashion of [TS]

  certainly stylish unusable clothing and got to think like that was the thing [TS]

  with the iphone 6 or if I'm gonna have six plus when it came out I thought I [TS]

  don't want to phone that big but i'm not going to prejudge it because Apple knows [TS]

  the market better and i am like one tiny segment now of the mark I don't want a [TS]

  gold phone I don't want to go watch I want whatever I and a lot of women i [TS]

  know i liked the six plus because they already keeping a phone in their purse [TS]

  and this was like this is great i can read it and it doubles as a kindle it [TS]

  serves many purposes and a lot of women and some men i know but i would say more [TS]

  of the women I know got it then man although several men we know like my [TS]

  curly and support the big fans of it i feel like the BSE is definitely ties [TS]

  more into that like the small pocket thing or small like not having a lot of [TS]

  rumors stuff to carry [TS]

  it's going to be for an audience that [TS]

  has been underserved the 5s Phil back app I'm so I'm excited to go out for [TS]

  this event because I so don't know I'm what I have a good guess what they're [TS]

  going to show ya but i have no idea how they're going to sell it to us which to [TS]

  me is interesting because there's two main things that they've got to get the [TS]

  smaller phone and they got the than the new iPad pro that's only nine point [TS]

  seven inches which is effectively just a smaller ipad pro so how do they stay how [TS]

  do they get onstage and sell two devices that are it's exactly like the thing we [TS]

  announced in September between right that neither of them are going to do [TS]

  anything better than the ones that are already on the market [TS]

  I wonderful talk about as a family of devices we know people have different [TS]

  needs and different bands and the 5s has been a stunning woman to the 5s never [TS]

  talk backwards right like we you know we fill this category in the past and now [TS]

  we felt we could do something unique and new and this is what we're doing to fill [TS]

  out our product line to fit a family of needs write something like that [TS]

  i I don't know and they have to say something new that there's always a new [TS]

  thing this is the reason why we waited till now to do this what is it we don't [TS]

  i don't know yeah I don't know how it's just like the less than with smaller how [TS]

  they get something new out of it I there must be but I is that I'd like the [TS]

  canopy is last thing but smaller think different right [TS]

  do you think there's a question I that I keep me in and asked us on Twitter but [TS]

  i'll ask you do you think they will come out with the smart battery pack for the [TS]

  iphone SE that's a great question i just i was working for wire cutter for a [TS]

  while I work on this USB battery guy . the battery into the battery pack that [TS]

  was that damn freaks old friend dentrix working the battery pack up from that [TS]

  came out but looking at a lot of batteries that are out there and what's [TS]

  capable and what the capacity of this thing will likely be I have a hard time [TS]

  believing it because i think the whole idea this was going to be that sort of [TS]

  like a very specific form right so if you come out with it and a battery pack [TS]

  you're underselling what this phone is about because they are so much more [TS]

  efficient with power than what the f of the 5s [TS]

  i would bet they could eat thirty or forty percent more power out of the same [TS]

  form factor than they can of the fs with a similar as using the same battery [TS]

  capacity and so ostensibly allowed a slightly bigger battery because they're [TS]

  better at that or slightly denser perhaps and everything will be so much [TS]

  more efficient and because the screen is so much smaller by area and by pixel [TS]

  count it written at risk [TS]

  well but they perfected that really hard to believe that they would want I mean [TS]

  what you want to strike I understand the 6s it makes a lot of sense because it's [TS]

  kind of in the middle there and people i mean USB battery packs of all kinds not [TS]

  just the ones that I I think cases have told so well I think if they do it will [TS]

  roll out on the same schedule that the battery pack for the success did which [TS]

  is you know six weeks after the phone comes out [TS]

  don't steal the thunder yeah stress and here's something hey and don't don't [TS]

  risk the the pr backlash of apple releases a phone that needs an external [TS]

  battery pack [TS]

  yeah right i mean they got that anyway when they released their own battery [TS]

  pack but at at by the time november $YEAR rolled around it was a lot quieter [TS]

  than if they had done it on stage [TS]

  can I talk batteries for a second because i can't tell you how many [TS]

  batteries are tested and I did this thing at the wire cutter I would have a [TS]

  USB battery pack guy with that great writer their mark on super notice who [TS]

  did a fantastic job use the battery testing lab Kate except in vancouver bc [TS]

  is fascinating and then I did a bunch of reviews for macworld just a few weeks [TS]

  ago of us bc equipped batteries and oh my god if you haven't touched the [TS]

  battery like us be better if you like a few years ago were like these are sort [TS]

  of terrible expensive they don't last long [TS]

  the next generation is out and like across all these different manufacturers [TS]

  and you can get you can charge the one that I like best in the macro roundup [TS]

  was the anchor has a 20,000 100 milliampere our battery with us bc and [TS]

  USA ear anybody 20,000 20,000 cost fifty bucks so if i can charge your macbook [TS]

  about a hundred and ten percent from it [TS]

  why 12-inch MacBook wow that's that I know what I was like you know it's kind [TS]

  of watching batteries a little ahead and get into it and the [TS]

  circuitry is so much better they hold a charge for the new like the new [TS]

  lithium-ion cells are being used hold a charge better they're so much better at [TS]

  conversion they don't heat up as much it's really extraordinary so if you've [TS]

  been holding back on a USB sound like an ad for the images that it is complicated [TS]

  though I actually looked into it a couple weeks ago and i was going to do a [TS]

  wire cutter style thing where i actually bought like three or four just for the [TS]

  phone [TS]

  it was right after I did the battery case review and I thought you know what [TS]

  I should review these little portable things because I've long had one it's a [TS]

  couple and you're too old a mophie that has like most of my problem movie is a [TS]

  movie alone has too many they have too many they also charge for x we need to [TS]

  pay anywhere cuz it makes it so hard to figure out what to buy just got anybody [TS]

  at murphy who listens to the show please for the love of God just get rid of [TS]

  three quarters of your product lineup and just keep you know just tell me [TS]

  what's the best one again because they have like different even just form [TS]

  factors of them but anyway they've got one that I really like that has built in [TS]

  a built-in USB cable and built not like yeah and it does pass through charging [TS]

  does it do is it that pastor is interesting which is it too so it's got [TS]

  a type a connector you can plug into a a DC adapter yeah like yeah like a [TS]

  standard not you later doesn't have lightning the right now it doesn't like [TS]

  me as a bit so does lightning and type in OC that's great and you can get that [TS]

  there's a Travelcard if you want a really tiny one has a lightning and type [TS]

  a thing with what's taking taipei means you plug it into the charger right yet i [TS]

  pay is like the wreck the stator rectangular one and that's what you [TS]

  mostly see that's the computer side more exciting to us bc or type is what you're [TS]

  going to see on computers and all the AC adapters are taipei those rectangular [TS]

  plugs but travel card is really is really neat because it has the integral [TS]

  lightning mfa mfi approved or licensed certified whatever and and the one so [TS]

  you only you don't carry any extra cable travelpod I think it's like 40 bucks so [TS]

  it's expensive or 35 and it only charge your phone like I like two-thirds the [TS]

  way or something but I like iphone 6 but if that's what you need if you're like [TS]

  the question thing we did the wire cutters we divided it up into you need [TS]

  it to top off at your [TS]

  full day at work our way and you get through the night or the end of an [TS]

  evening or do you want to be able to charge like for another full day of [TS]

  usage or on the road on the road for like a week and you've got an ipad so [TS]

  you can get things are now a differentiation you get anything from [TS]

  like Oh amazon amazon basics it doesn't have a lightning cable but it will take [TS]

  a regular plug you can plug your cable into it your regular right at ya [TS]

  adapter two thousand milliampere our battery from amazon it will charge your [TS]

  phone i think the resulting charges at least half or two-thirds it's five or [TS]

  six bucks an amazon basics add-on so you can go all the way from that up to like [TS]

  25,000 milliampere our grab power and some others that will charge an ipad [TS]

  like six times or something that's really it's really interesting to think [TS]

  about I mean I've always use them in the context of charging the phone but it's [TS]

  interesting to think about charging like a macbook that way within getting like a [TS]

  you know like a hundred you said 110% charge out of ya the rancor ism the [TS]

  anchors raising anchors a fascinating companies like Google engineer and his [TS]

  wife started this up and she started the business I think and then he eventually [TS]

  quit google they moved back to China think they're from China richly move [TS]

  back there are things we said and now they're shipping like a hundred thousand [TS]

  items a month or something like they came from over there quite love anchor [TS]

  quality it's like it's really great that whole lineup of stuff i and and they're [TS]

  making their kind of pushing it so that what what happened really is that a lot [TS]

  of companies panasonic LG and a bunch of other firms started to make really good [TS]

  standardized you know essentially lithium-ion cells they their varying [TS]

  size their cylinders like a double a battery but could be bigger or smaller [TS]

  and the standardized components mean that nobody in the chain has to build [TS]

  that part and they're all such high quality or bladder very high-quality now [TS]

  that it's so affordable they can stick 3 or 6 or 8 into a thing with you know [TS]

  some circuitry to handle charging and USB conversion and get you know it's [TS]

  really all that like packaging engineering of taking this commodity [TS]

  item and making it something better [TS]

  it's cool it's the new fiscal future I the gist of my experimentation with [TS]

  these movie ones i bought two with other ones that don't have built-in cables and [TS]

  you instead of to supply your own lightning cable to charge your phone [TS]

  from it [TS]

  but the the other ones are more like almost like a basically like iphone size [TS]

  batteries there you know yeah there in like an iphone and a varying sizes [TS]

  depending on their capacity but you have to supply your own cable the thing that [TS]

  really makes them work well for me is when you buy like from amazon basics or [TS]

  i actually bought a couple from i forget the name of the company was named a [TS]

  company by real cheap cables at a lot of price [TS]

  monoprice so I want rise tomorrow sorry i bought it but about a bunch of these [TS]

  little like three inch lightning cables which in a lot of context make no sense [TS]

  at all but like for just putting a battery in your pocket while it charges [TS]

  the phone it's absolutely perfect because then you don't have like dog to [TS]

  me before i bought one of these little cables to go with it the whole the whole [TS]

  thing that was such a pain and looked ridiculous is what do you do with the [TS]

  three foot cable when you're charging it in a device that's in your pocket [TS]

  these little like two or three inch lightning cables are perfect for that so [TS]

  and to me it's a better solution than the Apple battery pack or any battery [TS]

  pack for that matter because unless you really want to use the battery pack [TS]

  every single day at winter we're at which point I really question whether [TS]

  you shouldn't just get the iphone plus size if if that you know if you really [TS]

  want it all the time every day why don't you just buy the iphone plus well this [TS]

  is the thing that's interesting to having gone through all this battery [TS]

  stuff is USB is a huge bottleneck and so including lightning there's only a [TS]

  maximum amount of power you can push into an iphone or ipod ipad battery or [TS]

  even recharges i'm testing 20,000 milliampere our batteries it takes hours [TS]

  to train these things I got this thing I had to order from Japan this beautiful [TS]

  little device cannot get in America that's a low generator it did that pulls [TS]

  two amps of load up to like 3i think off a USB port and dissipated as heat so i [TS]

  could drain the damn thing so i can test to see how fast they charge [TS]

  there's a new quick charge two and three of these standards from Qualcomm that [TS]

  are being built into android phones some other phones back in charge of higher [TS]

  voltages so they can they charged in a relatively low amperage high voltage and [TS]

  they can recharge battery like two or three times faster than at USB voltages [TS]

  even at high temperatures so USB [TS]

  c is interesting because USBC boosts the overall like wattage you can put into [TS]

  something so if an ipad pro would actually really good with us bc because [TS]

  it could safely charge this battery like four or five times faster than the [TS]

  limits that USB put science-y you mean ipad pro I'd love to talk to some people [TS]

  that that what if what if [TS]

  well it's george time is lightning definitely put a limiting factor what if [TS]

  the lightning cable started with us bc to get the power and then was lightning [TS]

  into the device that's a good question i believe that lightning has a wattage [TS]

  limits that is below what you can do with us bc by a large factor so man of [TS]

  course I don't know what the limit is i think it's i think it's only 15 watts [TS]

  you can put over lightning and you can do you know the macbook charges that [TS]

  well as a 29 wat charger and USB see could have 200 watts on a cable you want [TS]

  to do that with an ipad pro but even like a 3829 water 31 charger for the [TS]

  ipad pro I think would at legacy least double or maybe even be sixty-seven [TS]

  percent more than you can do with lightnings limits one of the basic rules [TS]

  of computer technology in general is that anything that slowed will [TS]

  eventually be faster right it's terrible i get it and you just accept it like you [TS]

  just we used to just accept that it took a 90 seconds to copy a 1.4 megabyte [TS]

  floppy disk we just accepted that and because what are you gonna do you wait [TS]

  and now do you know the idea that you'd wait the long . noticeable . of time to [TS]

  copy one megabyte of data it's laughable [TS]

  so what slow today charging e listening to you talk about this charging is slow [TS]

  and it's like you know if you just you know get AG you know we develop habits [TS]

  to avoid having to worry about it charging overnight charging while we're [TS]

  out your desk but like you know like my son is not good with remembering to do [TS]

  it and it's like you're going on a road trip in its it are you heading to the [TS]

  airport and it's phone is already in the red it's like a guy would you thinking [TS]

  you know but it's and that's when you really notice boy it phone does not take [TS]

  a charge very quickly when you're in re no that's a big I think that's a big [TS]

  thing and that's why I mean Qualcomm this is where they're trying to innovate [TS]

  on the opposite side and I'm sure [TS]

  your love Apple to adopt this and apples not gonna adopt quick charge I don't [TS]

  think that's doesn't it sound like a lightning based thing right but I've got [TS]

  a couple quick charge three chargers he had a car they can't afford to be left [TS]

  behind now you know I mean lady that one sec though they can do this bc and they [TS]

  don't have to be quick charging can push more amperage are my thing is a [TS]

  combination average and wattage through i wonder if I wonder if they could do a [TS]

  lightning to that would increase the amperage but would be a physically [TS]

  compatible I I think USBC is the direction and I'm i'm just wondering if [TS]

  lightning I mean I know this has been about we talk about this since $YEAR [TS]

  USBC became a thing that Apple wanted to do is like it's really tricky to put a [TS]

  USB it's only slightly larger than lightning but it's tricky to put it in [TS]

  my phone but I think it's probably the right approach i don't i don't think to [TS]

  apples never going to put us [TS]

  you don't think I know I know them i wonder if they would add this is they [TS]

  are never going to add a second part of an ipad right but they should have the [TS]

  USBC port on ipad pro it's not gonna happen [TS]

  I think lightning is becoming an adequate to the task and I think that [TS]

  they're gonna have to cope with that eventually yeah wonder i wonder how much [TS]

  of this they've foresaw and how much now they're like me paint ourselves into . [TS]

  yeah you're totally right so they could have no lightning too could actually be [TS]

  lightning too could have us bc i'm one and enlightening to on the other and the [TS]

  same cable thing and it's backwards compatible but if you've got lightning [TS]

  to circuitry and a lightning to cable you get to charge you totally that is [TS]

  totally feasible i forget that so that that could be where they're going and [TS]

  then going to take advantage of the USBC infrastructure for having chargers other [TS]

  star and they're really push it that way but yeah I mean you know you don't want [TS]

  to take like seven hours to recharge and ipad pro battery that doesn't make sense [TS]

  right [TS]

  you want to take like three or two is that it's the thing but on the other [TS]

  hand you know this anchor this was talking about that I like it's always [TS]

  like a pound or something [TS]

  it's a pound 20 amp hours and fifty bucks so you're sort of like I will if I [TS]

  need to carry something extra I get one of these things and then sort of set and [TS]

  anyway it's such a bit so it's such a like walkie little area but it battery [TS]

  life is the thing that affects us more [TS]

  I mean you know network speed has been solved but you get LTE [TS]

  in most places pretty good and so battery is the next frontier to kind of [TS]

  resolve [TS]

  no I definitely I mean there's no doubt about it the battery life is the biggest [TS]

  it's the the lagging technology at the moment it means 12 I learned so much [TS]

  about what hours and see like the top number [TS]

  there's a thing about like how much Colin's you can stick into a battery [TS]

  fast enough without damaging it and some of its that's wild like you get into [TS]

  that it's like people spend a lot of time doing a lot of little formulas to [TS]

  make sure everything matches up correctly my sixth-grade batter are not [TS]

  battery my sixth-grade science fair project was on battery batteries and [TS]

  your head of your time I did a very proud a poor job on it i think i got [TS]

  like a be i don't think I got a b-plus look it's mike with my son my son is in [TS]

  sixth grade one of his comrades did a hovercraft using a modified electric [TS]

  leaf blower it actually hovers and carry somebody five pounds this is the science [TS]

  fairs today i really i really have asked my sixth-grade science fair project my [TS]

  the the test was not whether alkaline batteries last longer that was [TS]

  self-evident than regular remember the time I know you combine our alkaline [TS]

  batteries like we're talking about like Double A or seed those yeah betters [TS]

  there were there were regular there were heavy duty quote-unquote and alkaline [TS]

  like the door sellin and the analyzer and so my test wasn't whether they [TS]

  actually lasted longer of course they did it was whether you at consumer [TS]

  prices whether you were getting more bang for your buck with them and well it [TS]

  sounds clever and got it was like good enough to get the thing approved but it [TS]

  really turned out to be not not a very exciting test and it was actually [TS]

  devilishly hard because of what I the way the test device was to use the same [TS]

  flashlight and put these C batteries and then turn the flashlight on note the [TS]

  time and note the time I went off but not finding out what time flashlight [TS]

  burned-out is oh my god this is hilarious this was a wire cutters [TS]

  battery guy he really review with this exact same probably put it they put a [TS]

  flashlight in there videotaping a flashlight . into [TS]

  flashlight in there videotaping a flashlight . into [TS]

  box was how he ultimately did it I think see I didn't have a video camera is [TS]

  actually going to have a 12-hour videotape i right I wouldn't have a [TS]

  12-hour videotape and it got to the point where my parents got a little mad [TS]

  I mean this was not that this was not the most expensive scientific tests that [TS]

  was ever performed but it did seem like I kept saying I need more back her oh my [TS]

  god they're expensive and so I kind of had to triangulate like based on when it [TS]

  seemed it was going off in the middle of the night okay so i started it at 5pm [TS]

  and one of the middle of the night how about I start the next one at nine in [TS]

  the morning before i go on a date more income school and it was like [TS]

  petitioning my sister and my parents like every time you buy this flashlight [TS]

  see if it's on [TS]

  I one more thing to talk about batteries batteries are so exciting and others are [TS]

  delighted about it there's a new kind of double a battery and kind of lithium [TS]

  battery you can get its not lifting is called was it [TS]

  oh I'm blanking on the name here it's a nickel nickel metal hydride or something [TS]

  lithium what is it there's new batteries you can get now that perform [TS]

  rechargeables that performs so much better than the old ones they've changed [TS]

  the fundamental like chemistry of them so in the past you get really terrible [TS]

  recharging performance and now you get there so much better because of this [TS]

  thing's to get this its cycles like 500,000 times it you little maintain a [TS]

  charge longer like all the things used to drive you nuts about rechargeable [TS]

  batteries the new generation but now is appointing that when Jonas was younger [TS]

  and had a lot of kids toys we did I did the right thing I volunteer i took this [TS]

  undertook this myself and I did the right thing and bought like 40 double-a [TS]

  rechargeables and forty triple-a for the toys that took the envelope just a whole [TS]

  slew of these i think i got it from a company called like green battery or [TS]

  something like that that was already highly rated and a charger that would [TS]

  charge a bunch of them at once and then for all of his toys we use them but it's [TS]

  it quickly became clear that boy they ran out faster than like al-qaeda was so [TS]

  tempting to just buy the big pack and ourselves and put put them in there [TS]

  that's what we went from rechargeables to costco alkalines I always felt [TS]

  terrible like I'm destroying the earth because you know instead of being [TS]

  believes a few seconds that sense electricity because they weren't [TS]

  reliable but now over time was everything i have is lithium ion battery [TS]

  powered now anyways awesome internal battery so very very few things require [TS]

  one [TS]

  yeah they seem to do really poorly and remote controls to for some reason [TS]

  because like rip it replacing the batteries in a remote seems like [TS]

  something that you should only have to do like you know like I don't know more [TS]

  than a year right i don't know i haven't I haven't changed the battery and in our [TS]

  remotes in a long time whereas when we were using those those rechargeables it [TS]

  seemed like it was like all the time [TS]

  yeah these new this new generation wonder they call their Nick know they [TS]

  are there nickel-metal hydride nickel-metal I tried ni-mh low [TS]

  self-discharge LSD [TS]

  I don't know where you heard LSD for that doesn't seem like a problematic [TS]

  abbreviation you know they helping last four sometimes I think now it's they [TS]

  have months or even years will maintain their charge and they can do like I say [TS]

  hundreds 2000 + $OPERAND cycles so and that these are relatively new so if [TS]

  you're buying batteries like three to five years ago you'd be frustrated if [TS]

  you buy this generation in the end you have to carefully like Mexico wire [TS]

  cutters good review of them you have to look for brands and types because [TS]

  something very even among capacities they can be better or worse but much [TS]

  better experience [TS]

  alright let me take one last break and thank our final sponsor the show it's [TS]

  our good friends at fracture you guys no fracture there the company that prints [TS]

  photos directly onto glass you can go to fracture and if you use the code [TS]

  talk show 10 just talk show 10 you get ten percent off your first order the [TS]

  codes easy remember talk show 10 10 is the 10-percent you save $MONEY off your [TS]

  order now here's the thing the fracture pictures look great they make awesome [TS]

  gifts they make a great way to take the photos that you have on your phone in [TS]

  your you know iCloud account [TS]

  that you've never actually printed and put them into the analog world it's the [TS]

  best way to do it because they put them right on class they ship and these [TS]

  amazing packages that have everything you need to hang them up on the wall all [TS]

  included so you don't need to frame they are frame it's just an edge-to-edge [TS]

  piece of glass that's ready to pop on the wall prop on your desk put it on the [TS]

  mantel could not be easier and you never have to worry about all the stupid [TS]

  little fiddly things you do when you get a regular printed photo on paper into a [TS]

  frame where it has to be perfectly aligned and then you seal the frame back [TS]

  up and it tilts off two percent and you have to open up the frame again and [TS]

  redirect it and try to get it sticks so it's perfectly lined forget it you have [TS]

  to do any of that you'll get a better looking image and a better quality and a [TS]

  much more impressive display from fracture and it's better quality and [TS]

  it's easier so I you can't lose each factors hand assembled and check for [TS]

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  they're great people a great company and they really do in addition to having a [TS]

  great product they really do offer great service so just go to fracture me calm [TS]

  and remember the code talk show 10 when you checkout and you will save ten [TS]

  percent well we should wrap up we've been talking for a while anything else [TS]

  what else is on the agenda anything else you think that they're going to do at [TS]

  the event next week [TS]

  get that I wonder if they're going to slipstream in these kind of Wi-Fi update [TS]

  or cellular or something because i feel like the water that the Wi-Fi quote a [TS]

  pretty old i think they sell a lot of it and somebody's working about Wi-Fi ton [TS]

  of here it's not like they're kind of like two or three years behind some of [TS]

  the features in the marketplace so I wonder I wonder what they'll do did you [TS]

  see the new thing Walt Mossberg a review of it is called the e something and it's [TS]

  like a bunch of little pods that you put around your house to sort of create a [TS]

  network 0 I'm like not so hip on it because I feel like it's it's expensive [TS]

  I saw a review it was like this is great i had a torrid our port 80 gr 0 0 sorry [TS]

  and I guess the great finish architect eero saarinen a great answer if you're [TS]

  doing a either trivial pursuit or crossword puzzles ter oh sorry and I he [TS]

  designed the dorm i lived in college had no right angles we hate [TS]

  it's so much so much you can put anything up against the wall daddy [TS]

  restaurant in this beautiful designer with the dulles airport ok but i believe [TS]

  that's right i'm saying that now i don't know but i think he's a famous architect [TS]

  this is nothing to do with him i hope the license the name [TS]

  yes he designed it anyway so here oh yeah so they're so everyone said well I [TS]

  had a two dollar here a dollar apple airport extreme and it didn't reach [TS]

  everywhere so about three of these things that was great [TS]

  another twenty dollars each I'm thinking that doesn't actually prove that they're [TS]

  better like you did with the Select by side so i don't know i think their [TS]

  notion is they're trying to make it's you know it's simpler they're small [TS]

  they're intrusive and they think they automatically pair over Wi-Fi so that's [TS]

  a nice idea compared to having to go into configure crap and airport utility [TS]

  I mean I didn't write the airport utility for like 12 15 pounds since it [TS]

  came out 2001 and it's never been a great piece of software it's gotten [TS]

  better but it's not it's always possible [TS]

  it's always done well compared to the competition but it's correct yes it's i [TS]

  have a tp-link Archer c7 which is one of the top-rated routers from you not from [TS]

  google or apple it's like 90 bucks and is 802 11 see it's great and their [TS]

  interfaces dogs lunch like I love them but there's like 40,000 options and its [TS]

  really it's like yours no streamline like I want to do this thing it's like [TS]

  no you're gonna give your throw every single thing we could put the firmware [TS]

  at you it's not great that's not what people want a lot of them it's almost [TS]

  like you're just opening a dot-com file right [TS]

  vomiting . com yeah so there's that I love the idea so 0 is they're trying to [TS]

  get a very high profit margin in order to take all the pain away and there's [TS]

  you know there's market for that you look at something like nest cam nest cam [TS]

  is interesting because it's not you know its premium in the market it's not [TS]

  actually that much more expensive then make competitors and offer similar [TS]

  features it's a lot more competitive than the cheapo IP cameras you have to [TS]

  do a ton of configuration for and don't have a cloud service but ness camps was [TS]

  sold and I think the millions at this point because you plug it in and you're [TS]

  done right now it's nice like that [TS]

  I can't help but wonder that's it you you put the idea in my head you know the [TS]

  Wi-Fi the ideas i haven't heard anything like that but it does seem like it might [TS]

  be overdue and it's a technology that's constantly marched forward ever since [TS]

  introduction and so therefore it seems like maybe it might be due and it would [TS]

  tie into maybe just the basic home kit you know who knows maybe they have [TS]

  something that you know i'm not trying to anybody's hopes up but maybe they [TS]

  have some other kind of home kit you know stuff you plug into your house [TS]

  stuff to announce just geyser it would be a good and now it would be a good [TS]

  event to do it because it's not going to be you know it it doesn't seem that it [TS]

  clearly it out on campus it's in the little town town hall so it's not going [TS]

  to be a flagship event there's no blockbuster that's going to be coming [TS]

  otherwise they'd held it in a bigger venue [TS]

  well the fourth generation Apple TV as I recollect it has home kit hub features [TS]

  right it's got bluetooth in it and whatever and I they haven't rolled that [TS]

  into the Wi-Fi devices so right I i could see them do the other thing they [TS]

  could do is do some kind of simple setup like you do when the apple TV works [TS]

  right when that's work like hold your thing hold your phone near the device [TS]

  now you can set it up [TS]

  that's really cool and that worked for me with the apple TV i really liked it i [TS]

  could see them adding bluetooth when it works it works like no like got to work [TS]

  once the I like we're able to do a lot more now that i can use the remote app [TS]

  like i used i use it a lot more since they updated to support that but Wi-Fi [TS]

  stuff is often slipstream din like they'll put a press release and not [TS]

  announce it right in a March or April event i think the last few generations [TS]

  of real improvements so yeah it might make me might make for something it [TS]

  would take a demo because that's what I that's what I kind of feel like they [TS]

  might be you know hit up is you know just something that they can demo on [TS]

  stage to fill an hour [TS]

  yeah and home kit has I feel like home kid has been a very weak roll out like I [TS]

  think they expected to have more a year ago to offer and I don't know what the [TS]

  deal is like I mean it's B it's harder to corral a lot of third parties [TS]

  together and Apple didn't want to take center stage and making an ecosystem [TS]

  they want to make the hubs which makes sense but it feels I mean USBC is only [TS]

  right now starting to hit the mainstream and apple in that case to did not take [TS]

  the [TS]

  center stage in building ecosystem they built stuff you could plug in and plug [TS]

  into and I'm just already only now reviewing some USBC docs for mac world [TS]

  that do pass through power and this is the first generation of those that have [TS]

  done those are just coming out now year later [TS]

  yeah so I think Apple III don't think its ill-advised they shouldn't be [TS]

  focused they shouldn't be building a USBC you know extra devices and adapters [TS]

  and crafts they should be focused on the court thing they shouldn't be building [TS]

  home sensors because that's not they should put the value in the right place [TS]

  but I think they're seeing the penalty of the market not sleeping to their to [TS]

  their needs [TS]

  yeah i think it's the the penalty of when they don't do it all themselves you [TS]

  know sometimes nothing happens because it seems like it just seems like home [TS]

  kit is one of those things that is now I think all of us have kind of loosely [TS]

  filed it under or we really started shifting it towards the whatever [TS]

  happened to pile right yeah yeah whatever happened yeah we're under but [TS]

  you have these little bits and pieces that comes up but there's nothing [TS]

  comprehensive and I'm you know after bugs and s cams and nest thermostats and [TS]

  other things like I in some of the security things that are coming out the [TS]

  FDC putting action that the other than order against the company that didn't [TS]

  sit properly secure its equipment strange how the FTC is getting penalties [TS]

  for not securing your devices against intrusion which brings us full circle [TS]

  expect the odd thing there that's pretty good guess [TS]

  and that you know I guess the other wild card would be if they come out with new [TS]

  macbooks of some sort of it's been a year since the 12-inch MacBook so would [TS]

  be time but i won [TS]

  I don't know I i love line I think i mighta from one of the few but I it's my [TS]

  favorite computer since my do 210 I don't love the keyboard I cope with the [TS]

  keyboard but I love my do 210 and i think i love this one as much as that in [TS]

  between a lot bigger laptops look quite as much titanium I like lat [TS]

  well I don't seemed it just seems to me like and i know that i'm just not cute [TS]

  into Intel's roadmap like a lot of people and I know that a lot of it hangs [TS]

  on that but it just seems like a device that you can kind of knock for being too [TS]

  slow [TS]

  whatever improvements in 10 years oh yeah [TS]

  has gotten in a year would be worth putting out a new revision of the [TS]

  product it's true although i laid out like a 400-page book in InDesign on my [TS]

  macbook I edit audio in audition adobe audition with multiple tracks i can't do [TS]

  real-time effects but it lets me edit at least playback in real time without [TS]

  applying all the effects and and I like the dense screen I i wanted to replace [TS]

  my hair which was underpowered and didn't have a retina and I want and this [TS]

  is the closest thing i get that was like affordable and and met it and I year [TS]

  later i'm still pretty delighted with it [TS]

  yeah ah well no I will be at the show i'm gonna I don't know the famous last [TS]

  words but i might try to do like a mini episode of the show not live from the [TS]

  event but maybe record something ad-hoc with any anybody else who's going to be [TS]

  there who will give me five or ten minutes of their time sort of a do my [TS]

  thoughts and observations on the event right afterwards monday after the phone [TS]

  will be a lot of people you know they're I couldn't take seeing a i'm not i'm not [TS]

  going on [TS]

  seattle i'll be covering remotely from macworld but Susie oaks will be there [TS]

  and ok mr. Jason I'm sure and steady Caldwell understand so the the old gang [TS]

  will be there in different guises people who are readily volunteer will readily [TS]

  volunteer to be on a podcast except that they don't know anything about [TS]

  practically talking this is a real stretch for you Jason accept that would [TS]

  you would you consider being a doctor he's only easily record I think 15 a [TS]

  week now the poor guy [TS]

  yeah like a little exaggerated i'm looking forward to it I'd I know it's [TS]

  not a blockbuster event but I almost feel like these are the ones that are a [TS]

  little they're more interesting strategically to me because the bigger [TS]

  ones are a little bit more obvious strategically yeah this will be fun i [TS]

  think i love that we don't know for sure as much despite got a leak the fact is [TS]

  just not as much means a lot of known but not seen its kind of interesting [TS]

  yeah totally Glenn fleischmann anybody who wants to see you're well how I mean [TS]

  you know you're everywhere you're at macworld now i have already already like [TS]

  for them I you know I've got a book on slack that's coming out soon worse [TS]

  indicating it at [TS]

  tidbits they have a neat model where the first two chapters are up there now for [TS]

  free to its calm about using slack because know a lot of people a lot of [TS]

  people your age of mine John they've been told they have to use slack slack [TS]

  fun to use but thank you come across people like okay I got to use this new [TS]

  tool how does it work and like all right so a first book is about that the first [TS]

  two chapters will be out in a few weeks the full book and then also a smaller [TS]

  compendium you know I got name-checked is South by Southwest I wasn't there [TS]

  people start telling me Stuart Butterfield's mention your name on stage [TS]

  like what to do what it says see look what I know starts during passing for [TS]

  like 15 years like what did i do just full circle very briefly i'd mention in [TS]

  passing Roman Mars the host 9% visible great podcast he said something about [TS]

  the future of article reporting a business will be people posting slack [TS]

  screen captures right and I respond oh well you know they'll just put [TS]

  steganographic pixel identifiers slack will so we take a screen capture will be [TS]

  able to identify it [TS]

  this is stuart onstage says something like inflation mentions that we're not [TS]

  going to do this is like I thank God that was very funny looks like that why [TS]

  are being talked about it so that when i say it like it's just saying that they [TS]

  will not be inserting a security identifier I did not know you were [TS]

  writing a book is like that is fantastic it is a great idea [TS]

  it's fun i love it's it's really great and my five slack teams yes so that's [TS]

  the but people can read two chapters now and there's more of the book out a few [TS]

  weeks but yes one macro by me at tidbits calm and more to come [TS]

  and of course a Twitter very quiet seldomly updated at glen with 2 n's f [TS]

  account i took two weeks off it was a good break [TS]

  I didn't know tweeting for two weeks is really good was it hard it hurt no it [TS]

  was actually it's good it's good it's interesting it's at the being on Twitter [TS]

  during the political season is very entertaining but i kinda got you know [TS]

  backed off a little from now come back i'm enjoying it again Glenn has class [TS]

  planets over 400 1431 to do you take a break right at the 400,000 work right I [TS]

  did I essentially auctioned off the tweet to raise money for Planned [TS]

  Parenthood [TS]

  I raised i think people contributed almost three thousand dollars as been [TS]

  someone got my four thousand sweet as results that was that was my little [TS]

  taking a break [TS]

  I just know that right now there's a lot of people we've been gone a long time is [TS]

  long so people can tell it's over there like oh come on 400 thousand tweets this [TS]

  is when you know these guys are starved for oxygen and now Gruber is getting [TS]

  goofy and he's making shit up [TS]

  nope i'm telling you right now you could cleanse struck it Alex 101,000 i will [TS]

  leave the mass of dividing the number of hours in a day and the number of years [TS]

  that Twitter is has existed i will leave that up to you i'll leave it as an [TS]

  exercise you fire up p calc on your iPhone and and get Glenn's tweets per [TS]

  day out but he's probably too I bet you've tweeted during the show i'll bet [TS]

  if I look right now that you've tweeted while we recorded the show I'm withheld [TS]

  no star actually a dragon's eyes I'm respectful of your time [TS]

  jakis I I'm listening intently slack is driven has taken some light reading [TS]

  where you get some of the people i used to communicate with a lot with on [TS]

  twitter we now have been slack room so the incompetent work it is absolutely [TS]

  understand the real afm as a big chat room there's a lot of podcast networks [TS]

  hosts a podcast networks all over the place [TS]

  mana one thing i like about slack just for those listening to it's the fact [TS]

  that you can use it free with like up to 10,000 people and get most of the [TS]

  features is a really amazing freemium model i think they have like like 1.8 [TS]

  million of their users are daily users are in that mode like 600,000 paying [TS]

  service so yeah most of the black teams under free it's just nice to have a form [TS]

  that's private where you can have these discussions well I will make sure to get [TS]

  the link to the book in the show notes Glenn thank you for your time [TS]

  this is great it's been a great pleasure John thank you very much [TS]

  talk to you soon [TS]