The Talk Show

152: ‘The Greatest Mic Drop I’ve Ever Seen’, With Special Guest Guy English


  do it with your prince fan i can't say that i was i I've obviously you know as [TS]

  someone who grew up in the eighties it was impossible to miss him and I watch [TS]

  tons of MTV and so all of the songs from the eighties are totally ingrained in my [TS]

  head because I put this watch them just all the time because I would you know [TS]

  watch them to be all the time I like them a lot [TS]

  I cannot say i was particularly a fan I came around to it later because like you [TS]

  I was more of a I was putting in a pot category bit more we should think it's [TS]

  fair to say that kind of probably like more rapidly can again but I mean after [TS]

  I got out of that phase of like you know when you still like that when your [TS]

  teenager he tend to delete and hit things until it good and bad lot more [TS]

  but yea once i got into sort of appreciating what man he's immensely [TS]

  talented and he said so much cultural impacts in terms of other music another [TS]

  just the band's that's just the way to behave it's like he's amazing [TS]

  yeah I tweeted something last night which day was a tribute was from that [TS]

  when George Harrison died and his son had like a tribute and there and print [TS]

  plate and and didn't even sing I was like Tom Petty and forget who the [TS]

  somebody else he had no chance and asante yeah man and petty did most of [TS]

  the lyrics but then prints came up with this guitar solo at the end and it's [TS]

  just it's just like jaw-droppingly good you had always heard i know i'm not you [TS]

  know in some people on Twitter all the most people just retweeted because it's [TS]

  an amazing performance and it's just I mean it's just it's a great song [TS]

  well played and it's just amazing any and then it's even better because at the [TS]

  end eid Prince knows he nailed it and he just nonchalantly tosses his guitar up [TS]

  in the air and it never comes down wearable what the hell happened to his [TS]

  guitar and just being on a wire the whole time [TS]

  daddy just Saunders off states like it's like sections for this interesting i [TS]

  seen performing he is incredible i realize it's a guitar not a microphone [TS]

  but effectively is the greatest mic drop [TS]

  I've ever so I mean in addition to being a great song in the great performance [TS]

  yeah it is literally the best mic drop I've ever seen because it doesn't come [TS]

  on it's [TS]

  yeah and he walks out like Jimi Hendrix style oh but you're not accustomed to [TS]

  hearing necessarily and songs but he can't do it you don't mind me saying I [TS]

  just in my back pocket i could be the next romantics but yeah it's justin yeah [TS]

  I play a lot of functions and and then never had a couple people on Twitter who [TS]

  are like that's how can you you know to me how can you not know the princes want [TS]

  to like the top 20 guitarists of all time maybe like top 10 and I didn't know [TS]

  I knew he was great i know i knew we could play a bunch of instruments I knew [TS]

  he was very talented musician and including the guitar I knew that because [TS]

  people told me but I didn't know it in the way you really know it when you [TS]

  actually see it [TS]

  yeah and I realized then that all of those guitar solos on all of princes [TS]

  songs that are so amazing for him and I didn't know that before I get a new the [TS]

  ball after the half of the other instruments that are being right and [TS]

  also have right now that he's just doing it all and it in a way that's just you [TS]

  know almost impossible to comprehend i think one thing did I could probably [TS]

  convince you to appreciate it but a lot is that everyone had to change his name [TS]

  he had somebody and yeah so the record label basically had him by the balls for [TS]

  producing albums under the name Prince again like his deal so they exclude and [TS]

  the in the ultimate fuck you [TS]

  he's like I'm gonna change my name to dis older I remember when he changed his [TS]

  name to the character I didn't realize that it was it was a way out of his my [TS]

  god it was 100% whey out of its like screw you like you're not owning my [TS]

  Master's like my music I'm taking it and you're not only my name is i'm going to [TS]

  change my name to something ridiculous and he never bothered explaining to that [TS]

  it's not like you went on other shows and just told people that look I'm doing [TS]

  that I'm going to keep focusing on my work [TS]

  same reason why doesn't want all the youtube stuff is he wants to basically [TS]

  be able to own all the distribution [TS]

  yeah yeah yeahs service what he thinks artist deserve to be paid and I [TS]

  absolutely have been aware of his stance on that last night I mean like everybody [TS]

  half the people in the Western world last night you know i mean i started let [TS]

  you know when to listen to perseverance to and not on Apple music I knew that [TS]

  you know first thing i tried in and [TS]

  I instantly thought while I I guess I knew that actually you know because he's [TS]

  not into it so we just started buying a bunch of stuff from itunes it was a lot [TS]

  of fun [TS]

  good you know I i post the link today on during farber and if you saw it but a [TS]

  just just like a random screenshot from a movie [TS]

  the Prince made 1990 called graffiti bridge where he played like him you know [TS]

  like a sort of thinly veiled version of himself like a young songwriter and in [TS]

  1990 the character he was you know composing a song on like a little mac [TS]

  and smack it and and of course it was no end and it was totally legit wasn't like [TS]

  a phony phony phony fake you I was like a real app from the day of you know like [TS]

  it like maybe tracking yet maybe try to connect trackers and ya still like the [TS]

  actual screen shot in the in the movie is actually like an actual song that he [TS]

  wrote it was like so you got like a little look at at his Prince's own like [TS]

  you know working said I workflow and right track stuff with a mac like warhol [TS]

  drying and right right [TS]

  sketching on mac paint right little nine inch screen tiny god what would have [TS]

  been if it was an SE I think that was like that the guy who wrote the blog [TS]

  post is trying to figure out he nailed it down it was either an SEO and sem 30 [TS]

  yeah the su-30 didn't come out until like late in the year before the movie [TS]

  was made us so there's I think there's a much better chance that it was just an [TS]

  SE so that would have been just 68 68,000 chip I think I don't know that if [TS]

  they had a 6820 but it wasn't until the SES 60 80 30 that the mac really got [TS]

  fast that was a pretty slow machine you don't know you got it [TS]

  it says a lot about is forward-looking oh absolutely absolutely notice that [TS]

  he's like look I'm gonna try this crazy thing that probably sounded tinny and [TS]

  kind of crappy to and compared to all the other options he had but he was [TS]

  fascinated enough to like well and I think I was cool when I would learn how [TS]

  to do it yeah I'm sure the final output you know maybe didn't come right off the [TS]

  mac you know a lot of ways because you know I played a lot of actual analog [TS]

  instruments but maybe to get that the composition [TS]

  right yeah it's that that power of digital editing and the way that you can [TS]

  you can move stuff i mean we take it for granted to there and kick you know [TS]

  people who've grown up and an all-digital world head you know you did [TS]

  I could see why they take it for granted big but you know when you learn to be a [TS]

  writer or you know like it like I did where we didn't have word processors are [TS]

  computers at our disposal all the time and I used to actually I'm high school I [TS]

  used an actual use a typewriter to write stuff and he's like when you think about [TS]

  like when you're halfway through a thing and you really want to move a paragraph [TS]

  or even just take out a set if you realize you've just duplicated it's the [TS]

  same sentence twice something that you wrote like the page before and it's like [TS]

  you either have to reach retype the whole page or just or just live with it [TS]

  you know you start making decisions based on convenience rather than what it [TS]

  should be [TS]

  craft right i mean you really was if you wanted to get it do anywhere near a [TS]

  halfway decent job it was almost impossible not to type the whole thing [TS]

  twice because there's how could you not make some sort of editing decision you [TS]

  know where you go through and then retype it and you would literally have [TS]

  to retype that the thing I mean I'm sure music you know it was the same way in a [TS]

  lot of ways in that digital editing the same way that it's revolutionized you [TS]

  know word processing same way from music I'm sure yeah so is definitely changing [TS]

  the tempo like there is a bit there's almost there dimension to music that [TS]

  doesn't necessarily happen in in writing [TS]

  yeah totally yeah I don't know that what I remember from those days the early [TS]

  days of mac around that time is yes yes then we did we were constantly running [TS]

  up against every single one of the limits of the machines did I mean just [TS]

  stacks full of floppy disks all stuffed to within a few bites of being full a [TS]

  hard drive that was completely full if you go back even just a few more years [TS]

  didn't even have a hard drive everything you got the floppy drive [TS]

  severely ram constrained I mean that most of those devices a lot of those [TS]

  early max only had and a gigabyte or two gigabytes my mac LLC in 1991 it for a [TS]

  whopping four get are not gigabytes Megan thank you for making it is it yeah [TS]

  four megabytes of RAM ah so you're ram constrained storage constrained the [TS]

  storage was incredibly slow the hard drives slow the floppies were so slow [TS]

  you could hear them making the reads and writes yeah I guess you could hear the [TS]

  hard drives do but yeah the floor you find it comforting did yeah definitely [TS]

  could you knew someone was working it was it was comforting away didn't think [TS]

  about it until it went away your and then you realize that if you think that [TS]

  something might be going wrong you don't have that comfort like at least back [TS]

  then it's like if you thought something was going wrong like like a crash like [TS]

  maybe our that missed you know the system is locking up but you could still [TS]

  hear the thing you were hoping was being saved being written to you had hoped [TS]

  that ok at least it's still writing to the disk or if it locked up and all you [TS]

  could hear it like it were and then clicking noise right there were certain [TS]

  oh it's you could definitely you did a big part of the diagnosis of any problem [TS]

  back then was one of a kind of Smith what kind of noise mechanical robot is [TS]

  fine apart right is ever certain if it was perfectly repetitious then that's a [TS]

  bad sign [TS]

  yes that's like the same thing is going ok yes you could hear sometimes you can [TS]

  hear it when a program it wedged itself into an infinite loop and huh [TS]

  and that was bad but like there's a certain randomness to the sounds of like [TS]

  a file being written that it wasn't quite repetitious that that was soothing [TS]

  you seeking to the different sectors so here there there was it was more of an [TS]

  analog relationship it was fundamentally a digital machine but there was you know [TS]

  that the actual spinning disk and and the physicality of the ones and zeros [TS]

  being written to the disc gave it its certain a genuinely analog dimension [TS]

  that that came across in your relationship with it [TS]

  I feel like that's probably it I don't drive so correct me but like a manual vs [TS]

  automatic yeah i think just like you're looking very aware of the Machine and [TS]

  one case in the other case you kind of device from a little bit [TS]

  well and I think there's also a if you compared to driving and I'm not really a [TS]

  car guy but i do drive but i think there's also a almost undisputedly a a [TS]

  comparison to as as decades go on card our cars are more and more abstract in [TS]

  terms of just how much isolation areas from the noise outside the shock [TS]

  absorption and older cars you really feel the road and you feel it's it's you [TS]

  just so much less removed I mean it's almost shocking sometimes when you look [TS]

  at a car from the sixties or seventies let them further like how thin the doors [TS]

  are you know it's good [TS]

  everything was a lot more thinner and you just felt the road more and it's [TS]

  more pleasing I think overall I mean obviously consumer money talks that's [TS]

  more pleasing to have it abstracted but in a way as the driver you're you're [TS]

  removed from the the the just the feel of the road yeah did you show me a video [TS]

  do that Adam beneficiated with you it's like an old 1950's Buick crashing until [TS]

  I don't know what like a modern smoker or something [TS]

  now I don't think so and the Buick just gets destroy their word it was like the [TS]

  little guy just it's so much better engineer now it's it's absolutely [TS]

  amazing the differences that they've made in the ability that's to survive a [TS]

  crash together they call it the passing to keep that to maintain the integrity [TS]

  of the passenger cabin and and sacrifice the entire rest of the car it's it's [TS]

  just unbelievable words in the old days the coal car would just collapse like a [TS]

  can of coke [TS]

  yes kinda second if it really engine block Chevrolet going into your chest [TS]

  it's sickening to because you think like those old-time cars the old cars were so [TS]

  heavy that they would be safer but they just weren't because the structure [TS]

  didn't you know the structural integrity just wasn't there but it really is like [TS]

  it's just stepping on an empty aluminum can it's just the whole thing just yet [TS]

  collapse into it [TS]

  often it huh no designed for different goals ok the ATP guys are like shaking [TS]

  their fists this now [TS]

  oh i don't think so i think Syracuse is probably happy about the whole time Mac [TS]

  talk and me they had a good segment recently where they were talking I guess [TS]

  it because it was sort of one of the recent episodes was the day it's for [TS]

  apples 40th anniversary let ya look back at our first max and and I couldn't [TS]

  listen to get Marky know it's awful i honestly I consider myself a [TS]

  johnny-come-lately you are given temperature and wraps guy right yeah so [TS]

  I you know anything after that Mikey come on kids [TS]

  exactly and no that was one of those times where syracuse it was really i [TS]

  dunno it just felt like he was creepily picking the thoughts out of my brain [TS]

  because it was he was i he actually started using a magnet few years before [TS]

  me even though he's a few years younger than me just because my school my high [TS]

  school only had one mac and when I the longer i went i had like it was almost [TS]

  like that classes for just like two or three of us and in programming as like [TS]

  my last two years of high school there weren't it was only like two or three [TS]

  other kids in the class and i wanted i wanted a color display so I used that to [TS]

  GS how was very act [TS]

  thank you to meet their trusty well there's only one mac and end it was you [TS]

  know and I didn't want to you know i guess i could have argued for equal time [TS]

  on it was a member of the classroom named Elliot but I was like we're trying [TS]

  to decide which one of us would maybe use the mac and who you know and then [TS]

  there were a bunch of two TS in a lab that the you know we could choose from I [TS]

  guess if neither of us wanted to use the mac we could both use the two gs but [TS]

  he's you know he seemed more interested in the maghuin i was i was fined let him [TS]

  have it and I played with it a little and i remember playing with especially [TS]

  with mac right and mac paint macpaint in particular and mac draw but even back [TS]

  then with mac draw even in 1989-90 i was instantly baffled by bezier curves but [TS]

  if L yeah i loved and understood what it meant i understood [TS]

  it was a vector graphic could offer and I was fascinated but damned if I could [TS]

  it navigate the interface but Mac Manuel control points here like to do so I [TS]

  learned the mat and I say that knowing the math and yeah do it but it's still [TS]

  like good it's unintuitive yeah it's very unintuitive and and everything I [TS]

  learned about the mac was just completely into it remember to do i [TS]

  didn't i didn't like the mac is for weight so i started an apple to plus [TS]

  love the Apple 2 GS then got into pcs and for whatever reason because i was a [TS]

  stubborn kid I was like I didn't like the mac floppy disk i just it was right [TS]

  because it had that latch you don't like three-and-a-half inch blog is good just [TS]

  found it an elegant and i found that you liked the five and a quarter ones [TS]

  because you can flip them over and use a whole bunch and then you can get a whole [TS]

  second side you could do that with the with the plastic ones too but it was [TS]

  obviously harder and harder to make the whole yeah yeah it was just so it was [TS]

  done but it was like a five year phase of my life with enemy and I was getting [TS]

  into like hardcore until assembly programming and stuff at the time but [TS]

  then i did a drafting class in high school because they like drawing turns [TS]

  out not the same thing but one of the things we have to do is work on a mac [TS]

  and mac draw to change my mind and very soon after day I mean this offer was [TS]

  $MONEY billion get tired loved it was such a new different experience [TS]

  it's so funny to I know and I Casey even mention it because cases to way too [TS]

  young but he was baffled by the fact that the three-and-a-half inch ones for [TS]

  still called floppies even though there was nothing sloppy about them because [TS]

  they were in my shell it is it's just one of those stupid names because it [TS]

  what they did a long story short the there used to be Aiden's floppies really [TS]

  clear back but an angry dates my time but then like in the Apple to hear and [TS]

  what most of us in the eighties new with the five maybe as I bet your parents [TS]

  have like a stack of five and [TS]

  strange floppies that your ya want me possibly even five and a quarter inches [TS]

  tall because i don't have a computer in the house so who really yeah I've told [TS]

  this story but only have okay and my parents refused to buy can make it [TS]

  better this is why you made that is why your career and technology went nowhere [TS]

  all a lot of my friends were getting computers my friend Joey had an apple [TS]

  apple 2e which I could deeply coveted because I I from the early days on could [TS]

  I perceived that Apple's computers were superior build quality and were made [TS]

  with that and I to design that the others weren't but i would have taken [TS]

  any of them ever taken a Commodore Everett today I would have taken any or [TS]

  all of them you know but my friends are getting computers they were all [TS]

  relatively expensive the apple in particular that's some things that don't [TS]

  change but even like a common good commodore 64 was was he won't cheat they [TS]

  weren't cheap and a lot of my friends had to push because their parents like [TS]

  that's a lot of money and you're not you know in my end and you're not going to [TS]

  use it enough you know you're just gonna play games where we have an Atari four [TS]

  games [TS]

  my parents wouldn't buy him a computer because they said if we bought you a [TS]

  computer were worried that you're never gonna leave the house but yeah like they [TS]

  I don't know if it was the right parental decision or not I can't quite [TS]

  say I even in hindsight I i can't quite say I agree with them but maybe because [TS]

  you know I didn't have it had a pretty good social life in high school but I [TS]

  don't maybe I wouldn't i had a computer at home and he's probably right decision [TS]

  because I got so well because whatever kind of similar and not entirely bit i [TS]

  got it the first Apple too i got was take the second summer after I moved [TS]

  from England here so I didn't really know a lot of people in in canada and [TS]

  basically spent the entire summer inside programming right and that became like [TS]

  part of my I don't know how to describe it like it like recharging like you know [TS]

  when you need some alone time to go and do something just for yourself like and [TS]

  that lasted all during high school which is when actually became good night you [TS]

  know [TS]

  I want to put my trade is now but yeah there's a lot of time I just did not [TS]

  cops like you when I really should've like in a beautiful summer I'd be like a [TS]

  maybe i'll just try fixing this little bug in the summer between 10th and 11th [TS]

  grade my high school shut down there the the building was had needed a lot of [TS]

  repairs especially the roof and the school district had another building [TS]

  there was a middle school in it and in the decades prior that the population of [TS]

  the school district decrease such that they close the middle school put the [TS]

  fifth and sixth graders in the elementary school and it went from three [TS]

  schools elementary middle and high school to just two buildings in [TS]

  elementary school for 126 and high school for seven to 12 and in between [TS]

  10th and 11th grade they shut down the high school and move the high school to [TS]

  the middle school because it was a newer it was considered it was cheaper did fix [TS]

  them in the middle school which had been dormant for like 45 years and shutdown [TS]

  high school so the computer teacher I didn't trust the movers with the [TS]

  computers and let students take the computers home for the summer so I got [TS]

  to take an apple to GS home for the summer [TS]

  oh man yeah it was awesome and I had a job i actually that school hired a bunch [TS]

  of kids to help move the school so I like working is like a mover [TS]

  there's a couple good that's pretty smart was that like a legit job like [TS]

  nigga paid minimum wage [TS]

  oh yeah minimum wage absolutely whatever i don't use whatever I think minimal I [TS]

  could have been just playing fast and loose yeah i think it was either 375 an [TS]

  hour or 425 an hour for dollars twenty-five minutes and that with me and [TS]

  back-breaking work i mean i remember moving the library [TS]

  oh my god it's like because what is heavier than a box full of books there's [TS]

  there's and yeah [TS]

  very little is heavier than a box of books and it just thousands of books [TS]

  tens of thousands of books is often and we can ride it was like a two-mile ride [TS]

  to go between the buildings [TS]

  and they just we just had like this big flatbed open-air truck and we would just [TS]

  loaded up with stuff and then find spots to sit if we don't know I open-air no [TS]

  seatbelt on just a bunch of kids on the truck man look at how old schools that [TS]

  back it's tiresome movement which kids and just throw them in the back of the [TS]

  truck late and books they were they also did hire some adults like day laborer [TS]

  types [TS]

  I mean this is something that people who just do moving there's disease are not [TS]

  highly skilled work this is at the bottom of the the skill Jane in the in [TS]

  the the laboring world and i remember the one day we're still moving the [TS]

  library we had the card catalog and and so it was you know obvious is predates [TS]

  computerization of the card catalog was just this you remember what they look [TS]

  like they just are like oh yeah total anytime there's like a hole punches on [TS]

  the bottom like a little cards that you pull it yet yeah and you pull it out it [TS]

  was just filled with index cards and the one guy this guy wasn't a kid wasn't [TS]

  always like what the hell is this and we were like trying to explain to him that [TS]

  is these are like an index of every single book in the library and he just [TS]

  takes a few out while we're on the road going like 35 miles an hour just throws [TS]

  coming over yeah I just I i mean i was ended I was an asshole as a teenager I [TS]

  really wasn't it did a lot of shit that I in hindsight i really feel like i [TS]

  needed i need to be doing anything good yeah yeah I but I was just a pot I was [TS]

  appalled because i saw that is like we revert it as data loss like some of this [TS]

  yeah i did like vandalism or stuff like that I I i wrote off just because it [TS]

  seemed ultimately harmless whereas I feel like put a pretty graffiti on [TS]

  political science right right but I mean messing with books [TS]

  oh that was never burn a book and riots the right that way on a lake like okay [TS]

  with the same summer so the same summer when we're moving with the old the old [TS]

  high school had a central courtyard so that classes on the inside . sunlight to [TS]

  write so then in other words it's sort of an o-shaped building that was [TS]

  rectangular but [TS]

  donut three floors central courtyard and one of the classrooms on the third floor [TS]

  had like a janky old big-ass color TV and wasn't knew at the time and we dared [TS]

  each other to throw it out the window into the court you took to see see what [TS]

  kind of noise it would make and ultimately me and another guy like took [TS]

  it like we neither of us would do it by ourselves but we read it was heavy [TS]

  enough that I don't know if I could have it was really heavy but me and another [TS]

  guy i don't want to know I don't want to name them just in case I don't want to [TS]

  put his name on the right i can afford it and another kid opened up the window [TS]

  and we toss this big-ass color TV out the window and it made the greatest know [TS]

  is all my god it was it was worth it [TS]

  so I did that and I didn't feel the least bit guilty about it and then there [TS]

  was discovered there was a discussion there was a beating later about the TV [TS]

  and it did everybody go everybody knows anybody know about the TV in the [TS]

  courtyard and nobody nobody could remember anything about that square but [TS]

  that awesome the cards out of the card catalog go to me that was that was [TS]

  beyond the pale because it's like sacrilegious yeah exactly yeah its side [TS]

  but we got the way you put it is just data life and have you seen that I think [TS]

  i'm one of the BOS CDs that they shipped the OS on like one of the demo movies [TS]

  was them tossing monitors offered top of their office block [TS]

  no i don't so like it was exactly what you described they just dragged a bunch [TS]

  of old monitors up and they just did a mock which maybe explains why they went [TS]

  out of business [TS]

  it was pretty funny as let's see about that eel and he'll probably has a link [TS]

  of something all right I'm gonna see if I can google it after the show he was [TS]

  passing monitors off the roof yeah you'll be being a letterman attic [TS]

  probably didn't help either because tossing a TV off off hide high floor of [TS]

  a building is a very Letterman like thing to do [TS]

  yes the different the difference is that if the Letterman Show toss the TV off [TS]

  the roof [TS]

  they bought the team [TS]

  be yes yeah I controlled environment there's no and I did not buy hit by that [TS]

  TV i do not buy the TV i threw out the window but I had a job I had it was a [TS]

  full-time job we worked you know eight hours a day I played tons and tons of a [TS]

  basketball all summer long and filling in the gaps whatever wasn't working and [TS]

  then every other waking moment was spent on the computer and I thought that you [TS]

  know the fact that i held a job and still played recreational basketball all [TS]

  the time i went to movies with friends on weekends and stuff like that seemed [TS]

  to me like i was able to have a computer but my parents were like see this is why [TS]

  we can't buy you a computer even though i was doing other stuff they somehow [TS]

  seem to think that I was but now you turned out okay [TS]

  oh yeah I don't know about that [TS]

  well thank you for the sake of this argument [TS]

  yeah yeah whatever look at the difference that i would say this and I [TS]

  think that it was the fact that i just didn't I guess I got to play with that [TS]

  one mac in the lab enough that I i saw what it was all about and I saw the [TS]

  appeal and I really saw the cleverness of having a system that was [TS]

  fundamentally a graphical user interface em but the idea of getting obsessed with [TS]

  user interface design just hadn't occurred to me yet and and the the [TS]

  profound miss of the cleverness of the max UI system just it hadn't I didn't [TS]

  use I needed to use it more to to appreciate it i don't think it has [TS]

  occurred to anybody it I with the exception of the people that worked on [TS]

  Lisa in the mac it seems that's one difference with Syracuse to me it seems [TS]

  like you listening to his early history of computing the heat got he got that [TS]

  aspect of the mac with almost maybe instantly but certainly with less [TS]

  exposure to it than i did I needed to own one which is which I did when I got [TS]

  to college to have that mac like I said the aforementioned 44 megabyte of ram 40 [TS]

  megabyte hard drive Mack LC and then really really appreciate it so no it's [TS]

  so I like to make like I said it in the jacket [TS]

  so I was like okay I get it this is something totally different but I didn't [TS]

  really appreciate one until they bought one after then immediately after the [TS]

  next acquisition and then I was stuck with OS 8 for a year and I felt [TS]

  immediately like man I'm stuck with operating system it's like not good and [TS]

  then I learnt all the great things about it and so yeah like I do consider myself [TS]

  a johnny-come-lately but what I mean by nobody had appreciated it [TS]

  I don't think the people at xerox parc weren't necessarily thinking about [TS]

  design the same way that Apple was when they went to actually try to implement [TS]

  my first release and then the mac yeah yeah it's hard to say without using this [TS]

  I've never gotten the chance to use the Xerox star but I've read enough about it [TS]

  and there's work the drugs didn't seen it and kind of looked at it and and [TS]

  because i used to be a little bit more obsessed with the whole that stupid this [TS]

  the angle that Apple dapple really didn't even doing with the mac they just [TS]

  ripped off the rocks which legally isn't true because they actually got xerox in [TS]

  exchange for a good vantage office it was totally on the up-and-up legally [TS]

  they said how about we give you a little bit of a stock in the apple core apple [TS]

  computer and then let us know just think that's a fast I'll argument [TS]

  yeah in general well it's wrong and who cares like now but it's at the time it [TS]

  was it at the time when there were was more more arguments between you know pc [TS]

  sure at the time it was a point but I mean it's only it it's only a point if [TS]

  you're trying to make an appeal to Authority argument right and i never got [TS]

  too bogged down in I mean somebody might be able to dig up some old usenet posted [TS]

  this pic pic but i seem to recall that I always have another a anti old-school [TS]

  macclesfield well I find I found it tiresome because it it it was I was a [TS]

  hundred percent certain that i was on the right side and it seemed to me like [TS]

  the people on the other side didn't really have anything to contribute [TS]

  anyway so if they're want to be wrong they can be wrong [TS]

  like it wasn't worth trying to convince them there was what was what would be [TS]

  the point if you know if you can't see how superior this is then you know [TS]

  forget about it I mean circulation it's incredible how you going and edited to [TS]

  what's that kind of my dog i thought one of the things that I thought was I had [TS]

  to me do you remember do to you when you I don't know if you were too late i mean [TS]

  resident was still a thing in that [TS]

  oh yeah yeah resident to me was is maybe the my favorite mac program of that [TS]

  loved him [TS]

  let's just say I I while being foreign to me and love the idea of a resource [TS]

  for i love the idea stuffing extra information in there but on the windows [TS]

  side they try to do something similar like the exe format is a flat format but [TS]

  you can have resources appended to it right but it's not the same thing as [TS]

  having an actual resource for which is good and bad a good in it it's just one [TS]

  flat binary stream bad in that you don't have the and then you want to express [TS]

  expressiveness like it I can visit it look at multi resource file [TS]

  well and it did it it the whole idea predated the era of universal the [TS]

  internet the internet that really solve the problem of every computer eyes [TS]

  because i think the internet i think the internet turned everything into the [TS]

  lowest common denominator did that was my binary stream writing right now it's [TS]

  it's it's not o'clock and a lot of ways there that's not some ways negative you [TS]

  know exactly it's not to say that it meant the best thing one it just meant [TS]

  though that there was there might be a good reason to go with the lowest common [TS]

  denominator solution of everything is just a single for file [TS]

  yeah I'm coming from 1-2 at the time which and even NT which both had [TS]

  multiple resource folks [TS]

  look at that time all of the file systems had followed with the maggot [TS]

  done which was like okay this data in one segment and then there's a bunch of [TS]

  other segments that have you know either metadata or you know what you guys [TS]

  called resource works the contract extended attributes which is essentially [TS]

  those what really it's not even the technical details of whether it was a 24 [TS]

  volt I fork file system or if they had done something more of a hack like let's [TS]

  say it's or you know like a lot like what we have on us ten network where [TS]

  your app is really just a folder that the lender treats as a file and total [TS]

  resources you know just imagine if the original mac had gone with the same [TS]

  thing words a special magic kind of folder and in the folder are all the [TS]

  resources and every one of the resources itself actually just a flat file it's [TS]

  the conceptual design of having this one app that you could edit all that stuff [TS]

  with all these different resources so that even in the nerd mode of of either [TS]

  being a developer or just being an enthusiast who wants to customize the [TS]

  icon for a file or a nap or folder or any of the other many many things you [TS]

  could edit and manipulate and resident the fact that even when you did those [TS]

  things you were still within same the same GUI universe [TS]

  mhm and you didn't have to resort to a command line or something [TS]

  ya know in some ways it's kind of like the small talk like living environment [TS]

  yes I do i do think so i think you're in a strange way even though the mac the [TS]

  original mac i don't think you would say the technical way not all that important [TS]

  to be different but the concept is a little bit the same right like yes that [TS]

  you stay you stay completely committed to this to this limitation that yourself [TS]

  imposing and and beauty will come out of it yet [TS]

  yeah i think so and you know it's funny [TS]

  next used to do that with like apps it shipped even on OS 10 up until oh I'm [TS]

  gonna make up a number 10 223 most of the apps would ship with nibs which [TS]

  would next interface builder files which you could open up in [TS]

  interface builder which has since been merged into Xcode and then edit the UI [TS]

  of the app that you like if you didn't like the arrangement of dialog boxes you [TS]

  can change it just like and visit it right these days they've moved away from [TS]

  time [TS]

  yeah they all get compiled down into stuff that you can hit afterwards from a [TS]

  software reliability . if you think that's probably a good idea but i like [TS]

  the old west style of you know stuff it is is common between both platforms the [TS]

  the classic mac OS was i'm not saying that it should have [TS]

  in hindsight that it should have gone through through to today that I mean [TS]

  there's certainly some advantages to the Mac os10 philosophy you know of the [TS]

  design of the system where things started getting locked down and some of [TS]

  the technical aspects of it were not is conceptually beautiful but more [TS]

  practical [TS]

  I that's when I first dead can became true familiar with your accuser is our [TS]

  to argue the at the back then it was made invest and i would argue the future [TS]

  looking pragmatism and he would argue did well it just sucks in terms of let's [TS]

  say window sizing right like well look it's all done on the GPU and they're [TS]

  doing much stuff and it's gonna get better and that yeah but it sucks and he [TS]

  was he was right [TS]

  he's right i think i'm also right but if it you know there was a beauty to the [TS]

  original mac OS know that hasn't matched since and I don't think I totally like [TS]

  and- and I completely agree with toxic you said that iOS is closer much closer [TS]

  yep then Mac OS tenders to the original and yeah i think now we're getting into [TS]

  well more convoluted territory where I'm not sure [TS]

  well the big difference the big difference and this never would have [TS]

  made sense in the era of of [TS]

  the original mac wouldn't have it just don't get ever would have occurred to [TS]

  anybody even steve jobs to lock the system down and not even allow you did [TS]

  you know they're did like the residents a perfect comparison there's never gonna [TS]

  be a resident for iOS that lets you diddle with the icons for apps or how [TS]

  the resources in it because it that that doesn't that there's another aspect of [TS]

  iOS that that would be philosophically opposed to there's a sort of do not [TS]

  allow you to shoot yours by part of the design of iOS is to design a system that [TS]

  prevents you from shooting yourself in the foot even that you really really if [TS]

  you've got like a really cheat you know a satchel eats foot and you just want to [TS]

  shoot yourself in the foot [TS]

  you're not you can't do it in iOS by itself that just never would have [TS]

  occurred to anybody in the mac OS air like I don't think the fact that you [TS]

  know i mean it wasn't like the Machine shipped with resident you had to put it [TS]

  on your machine but not even allowing you to do resident or not allowing you [TS]

  know having a resident that wasn't allowed to edit certain system files or [TS]

  something like that never existed makes sense well I mean used to some of the [TS]

  hacks we would do we would go right into the remember there is the system [TS]

  suitcase there was actually there is it [TS]

  yeah i mean as part of the things one of things that i say made the mac the [TS]

  original mac so beautiful is that the entire file system was there was no no [TS]

  crap there was like four or in those years went on very very little crap like [TS]

  it was just a folder that said system folder and inside was a last suitcase [TS]

  file called system and that had all the resources for the system itself and [TS]

  they're all neatly organized over there were no hidden folders or anything like [TS]

  that the only hidden folder I can remember would be the desktop folder [TS]

  that at the root level of the hard drive there was an invisible folder called the [TS]

  disc Desktop folder which is the actual location in the file system where [TS]

  everything you put on your desktop was notably under the root of the disk not [TS]

  under the user there was no user right well that's that I mean this is why [TS]

  things got a little bit interesting i was ten came along right things get a [TS]

  little bit tricky right [TS]

  and that's why we started but i don't remember who is a beta that actually hid [TS]

  anything outside of user I'll man i think that their wireless I think i [TS]

  mighta been floated but yeah they went back and forth a lot of those things [TS]

  yeah oh let me take a break my word [TS]

  yeah you think several thank our first 41 minutes and you haven't even gonna [TS]

  show you it's our good friends at this episode of the show is [TS]

  sponsored by they have more than a hundred and eighty thousand [TS]

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  for many many many years because it makes sense because guess what podcast [TS]

  anybody is listening to me talk about audible right now you are somebody who [TS]

  enjoys listening to people talk to audio spoken audio content [TS]

  I don't know how you're listening to me you're using you know your phone if [TS]

  you're using your desktop got headphones on your pumping through your car [TS]

  speakers but wherever you are whatever you're doing you like listening to [TS]

  spoken word audio content so . audible with over a hundred and eighty thousand [TS]

  of these things is something to look at [TS]

  if to fill up the remaining time that you have to to listen to stuff i mean [TS]

  don't stop listening to talk show but you know if you've got free time where [TS]

  you wish that there was more stuff to listen to [TS]

  ah audible is the one place that has more stuff than you'll ever be able to [TS]

  listen to [TS]

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  great listen guarantee if you start an audiobook and you don't like it bores [TS]

  the hell out of your what [TS]

  however it's not what you thought it was going to be you can exchange it for free [TS]

  for another one cannot be better people do you know people who listen to a lot [TS]

  of audio content you this is the place to go to so soak up more of it than [TS]

  you'll ever get [TS]

  so go to / talk show and get your 30-day free trial [TS]

  thank you . able for sponsoring the talk show I didn't even have this in a note i [TS]

  do I always prepare very copious and well-organized notes for the show yeah i [TS]

  did not have a trip down memory lane [TS]

  there's not much i like the mac i like the max so much when i was a freshman in [TS]

  college and finally owned one and had it i spent my entire freshman year all of [TS]

  my free time either playing games or hacking or dealing with the system [TS]

  resources and in resident and didn't you know I didn't go out drinking or [TS]

  anything like that [TS]

  all I did recreation I just continued to play basketball I play basketball and I [TS]

  sat in my dorm room staring at my mac LC staring at it and we didn't have a [TS]

  network at the time there was no there was no internet in the dorms at Drexel [TS]

  University at the time so you know what and modems were modems are so expensive [TS]

  they're probably looking at a joke [TS]

  yeah there are preposterous is why 291 9091 292 yeah I've told this story [TS]

  before to wee-wee wired up the dorm room [TS]

  kelvin hall at drexel with the phone net forget what they were called but they [TS]

  were these little and they were these were pretty cheap you can get the order [TS]

  amount of the back Mac world magazine or mac user you mail order these things [TS]

  going to get yours from a connection was about 15 bucks and get a little about [TS]

  the size of the mouse maybe even spark smaller than the mouths of the day and [TS]

  it would plug into the serial port of your mac and then I was a phone [TS]

  connector on the other side on the box and so then you could use phone cable [TS]

  just regular old telephone cable to create a local talk network [TS]

  oh man executed that so you playing video games again right spectators the [TS]

  name of the was that it was like a first-person shooter i get a [TS]

  vector-based no pseudo vector based tank game [TS]

  and we wired up the whole floor and we figured out you know and then I we [TS]

  figured out that you know this is like the first time I learned how you know [TS]

  like you know some electrical stuff work that there's nothing really magical [TS]

  about phone cable it's just copper that's all it is [TS]

  there's no it's just copper intellect you know the electrons move on it [TS]

  doesn't you know and that the colors are just to match up [TS]

  there's nothing different about him so yeah we figured out we could we we just [TS]

  ran speaker wire through the drop ceiling all around the forget what floor [TS]

  i was 18 for seventh floor of common Hall and then just ran phone wire [TS]

  between anybody who wanted to get on the network or not you know and you don't [TS]

  have to do any soldering or any just going to connect the dots make sure the [TS]

  cable and is the electrical tape it up so we have the whole floor wired up [TS]

  networking there's a chat app [TS]

  oh my god it was like the first time I ever had African what was called boy it [TS]

  somebody out there remember it but a mac it wasn't there when you just Hotwire it [TS]

  was it now was way before that way it was but you can I guess you'd have to [TS]

  know you didn't have a user ID you have a mac name though so your Mac would have [TS]

  a home on the local top network so that's how you do you know that was like [TS]

  your ID say but you could like effectively just sent teams to each [TS]

  other which was amazing everything of course if everybody does this all the [TS]

  time now but it was like my introduction to tell ya that was really cool and it [TS]

  was all through a proper Mac interface there was no wasn't like you have to go [TS]

  to a terminal type application or anything like that it was great yeah and [TS]

  then we found out the kids on the floor above us had done the same thing and did [TS]

  you bake them to you yeah there was a lot of trash let's call it an internet [TS]

  there's a lot of trash talking about who's better at inspector and so we ran [TS]

  some wire outside my room up to the 16 is created named yeah and then one day [TS]

  the guy i forget them is title but whoever it was he was the guy who's that [TS]

  in charge of the that dorm [TS]

  yeah you know like I forget his title but the guy that was in church but there [TS]

  wasn't like a name sounds like an eighties villain [TS]

  yeah well he is a nice guy i just it was it was a very eight [TS]

  keezmovies situation where i got a knock on the door and was told to come down [TS]

  and meet him it was me and the guy above me who's thing says his smoking jacket [TS]

  with like one of those candy with the candy cigarettes and the dorm faced [TS]

  south or at least my side of the dorm face south and so it caught the [TS]

  afternoon sunlight the afternoon sunlight came into our dorm [TS]

  he said he was coming up the street yesterday and no notice the very bright [TS]

  this is where we were where we screwed up is that we just use speaker wire [TS]

  instead of we didn't really try to disguise it and that the the copper of [TS]

  that speaker wire really it was bright it like blinded him and he saw like a [TS]

  very bright line between our dorm rooms and we got closer and figure out what it [TS]

  was you know that this is a fire hazard and we you know got to take this down [TS]

  immediately and he obviously and I tried to explain that and I'm i think i think [TS]

  i'm correct that it was not a fire hazard [TS]

  it dont think theres not flotation right there's not a voltage you know it's not [TS]

  our husbands also not a dumb suggestion [TS]

  no not a dumb suggestion and I could totally see why as a someone with a job [TS]

  that you know ya needed to deal with this [TS]

  so we start always I will get right on it will take it right down and and all [TS]

  we did was take down the bridge between the two floors of course and hope that [TS]

  he didn't make any kind of spot inspection because it also seemed clear [TS]

  he had no idea he i think he did because he saw it he thought it was a connection [TS]

  between my room and the kid above his room not a connection between like 30 [TS]

  dorm gray those were the days can't compete with that maybe could be used to [TS]

  look at shielded wire little bit more gonna get ya [TS]

  don't ya think we could have you no money was money was a problem though I [TS]

  mean this was a network that we you know other than that with everybody had a [TS]

  fifteen dollar box data by themselves and i would say the rest of it cost us [TS]

  about ten dollars [TS]

  yeah wherever wherever we went to buy the speaker wire in bulk and the DA [TS]

  electrical tape [TS]

  I like that you stepped up from just using the like sort of the 10 that you [TS]

  can get from like gum wrappers burning off the paper side and that is using the [TS]

  10 and just kinda you're having it together [TS]

  I'm trying to google the name of this app and I cannot find it i don't know [TS]

  how did because it the because it was something that was only abuse in the [TS]

  maybe ladies very late eighties and early nineties it all predates the [TS]

  internet and predates google so i know it's like impossible you know why a used [TS]

  to go to work I was thinking about right for old-school unix names [TS]

  yeah i mean i wasn't a unix name it was a total Mac think it was not to support [TS]

  but like like a brief on it [TS]

  yeah it was like wasn't wasn't talk like something you could do local talk about [TS]

  it but that no yeah local chakra see a protocol but talking unix yeah i [TS]

  remember talk and then there was like variants of it like and talk and yeah [TS]

  Amy and I used to use that extensively because I've been entirely retro episode [TS]

  of the show so amy was in Pittsburgh and I was in Philadelphia and even though [TS]

  it's still the state of Pennsylvania it was still this is out ancient the early [TS]

  nineties were there was long-distance phone calls were still a thing so we [TS]

  used to read just by talking a few minutes a week we'd rack up a hundred [TS]

  dollar-a-month phone bill which was massive college student said there was [TS]

  no way to to cost-effectively speak on the phone from pittsburgh to [TS]

  philadelphia and then we just got you know we got email and email each other [TS]

  and then [TS]

  when we discovered like talk and talk but to be we had to use them like she [TS]

  had to use it from like a lab rat pit at university of pittsburgh she didn't have [TS]

  a computer in your dorm and eventually i think i got a modem soon enough but i [TS]

  think when we first started doing it I might have had to go to the lab to so [TS]

  we'd have to like schedule a time because you wouldn't be able to to get a [TS]

  nice you know like like the whole idea of how do you start texting with [TS]

  somebody is is a totally different problem when you don't have that the [TS]

  phone with you at all times and there's no better sexy talk and scheduled time [TS]

  in the lab right that but it worked [TS]

  it was amazing you can tell you that you can see what each other was typing at [TS]

  the same time to at least with one of them the one we like the best I don't [TS]

  like character by character yeah it was like smelly delete yeah yeah I just that [TS]

  and you can make jokes with it you know it was good yeah good way to like make [TS]

  jokes where you type something and then delete delete [TS]

  yeah I'm of two minds that I'm kind of glad that people don't get to see what [TS]

  it was about to say but i remember those apps when it was like you have to be [TS]

  careful [TS]

  yeah I like it [TS]

  3-digit icq code at one point which I never used to remember i think you know [TS]

  I yeah I never really used it really black mostly pc think yeah and I [TS]

  remember I remember not getting there was like a real eye-opener me where I i [TS]

  heard of it i thought no i don't think i ever signed up for it and then it but it [TS]

  was like six months after i became aware of it when I realized that that that the [TS]

  name was upon because I all your IRC and I you know IRC was just internet relay [TS]

  chat i did use that of course and then I thought icq was just the same thing [TS]

  where it had meant something and I didn't realize that it was icq yeah it's [TS]

  yeah we got a cute name [TS]

  this explains why i had no interest in using yeah well I also at the time did [TS]

  not have any interest in talking to people that weren't in front of me I [TS]

  think [TS]

  has changed as they have become employed you still looking like i am i'm tweeting [TS]

  I'm going to tweet here this is alive [TS]

  there's a tweet livejournal actually anyone remember the name of the early [TS]

  nineties chooser extension for instant messaging on local talk let's see if [TS]

  Twitter can see if Twitter kenmare can consider the day [TS]

  yeah yeah filipino going to look to live audience right i just want to say we [TS]

  actually had a plan like I have an army outlined a document here but that's what [TS]

  we're gonna talk about it i'm gonna do and you know what the first one was [TS]

  Prince right we did that and we're still good but what's next on your army or was [TS]

  it the ben thompson Apple yeah the actual services right yeah so yeah and I [TS]

  don't want to drag you back to this because I love have done however we [TS]

  filled it up i'll just wait until my Twitter replies have their yeah we'll [TS]

  get back today I'm so how would you summarize Ben Thompson 10 times a great [TS]

  piece on st. Thompson is a person you don't know the best time someone who's [TS]

  this [TS]

  don't like a yeah it's difficult I kid like it had a good pieces weekly free [TS]

  may take that to hurt his weekly free for everyone's protector II column this [TS]

  week was either really area is always good but i thought this one was [TS]

  particularly good yeah i'm more or less arguing that all right [TS]

  one of the things that makes apple very unique i'm gonna try to summarize this [TS]

  very quickly is that apple doesn't have product divisions there's no Mac [TS]

  division at the logical way for a company that sells what apple sells [TS]

  would be to have a mac division and iphone division probably a separate ipad [TS]

  division [TS]

  although there's you know you could argue whether an ipad maybe in them in [TS]

  the eye and iphone division a new watch division at seventh and they don't TV or [TS]

  accessories be any accessories division the TV being the thing and they don't [TS]

  that's not how the company has been setup it it that's the first thing and [TS]

  probably the most important thing that Steve Jobs did when he came back in [TS]

  1997a I was dismantled that sort of thinking and it put in what would what's [TS]

  best called I mean this is the part where Ben Ben Ben can smart talk is [TS]

  because he actually you know like knows the business school terminology and we [TS]

  just 11 me when you asked me to talk about this I'm like seriously like well [TS]

  but that hasn't stopped me on it like its gonna go guy but this side of is [TS]

  anyway because it's functional vs divisional right you just described [TS]

  divisional right [TS]

  Apple works as a functional structure and you know there have been exceptions [TS]

  the ipod division was sort of an exception to this but they got rid of [TS]

  that and wait let's define why the ipod division was a separate from that [TS]

  because it had its own OS and it's running right of the manufacturing trust [TS]

  yeah it made sense for and I think it sort of evolved naturally and it wasn't [TS]

  really seen as an exception but simply that it just was just made sense [TS]

  especially in the early years [TS]

  yeah I'm and I really don't think it's overstating it that that the decision to [TS]

  go with a stripped down version of OS 10 as the OS for the original iphone [TS]

  instead of a a you know muscled-up version of the ipod OS or some other new [TS]

  new OS in know in the mindset of the I've ipod OS and interpersonal games [TS]

  right right exactly what was it called it takes you pics opx I think either p I [TS]

  xof PX I oh yeah i think it was p IXO but yeah it was an embedded operating [TS]

  system you know 44 get a license and heavily modified right i think i'm being [TS]

  fair in describing that as a including all of you know the early ipods as ever [TS]

  more computer like electronic gadgets and then the other mindset [TS]

  it is and it just we did you know that the industry just had to wait until [TS]

  computers got small enough and cheap enough and and ran with you know a low [TS]

  enough energy to make ever more gadget like computers right [TS]

  the iphone is a gadget like unix computer [TS]

  I mean it really is it full you know it's a much better units computer than [TS]

  most of the server's of you know the earlier part of our lives [TS]

  well going I mean going back to what we were talking about the previously when I [TS]

  stand first became the thing people all worried about like well unix rights at [TS]

  these massive log files every night at midnight [TS]

  ok you can't do that on a pc you know a few years later it's appropriate to be [TS]

  using on a phone because of a lot of work that went into always 10 and no [TS]

  soda taming unix back to be I guess more focused or don't you know [TS]

  yeah boots i remember at the macworld where the original iphone was introduced [TS]

  it was Macworld Expo january 2007 and it was it's the biggest sensation of all [TS]

  sensations from to go into that but then it was doing the trade show was there [TS]

  afterwards and I think I was doing a live episode of the talkshow did it with [TS]

  cable sasser damn behavin wasn't there and so is Craig there too which is cable [TS]

  it was just cable that time [TS]

  yeah it gives you in this class boo three now is the different was a [TS]

  different one we don't know that we had and we weren't in a glass booth and we [TS]

  had an audience of people might have been after that one where where we did [TS]

  it in the the glass booth which was weird but we're out on the open show [TS]

  more the acoustics are terrible [TS]

  I don't know where the audio is but it was just just we obviously knew we want [TS]

  to talk about just mean cable sasser talking about this amazing iphone [TS]

  and I just remember cable came out and we haven't I don't know 1,500 people in [TS]

  front of us and cables and how many people how many of you guys are thinking [TS]

  you're going to buy one right away and everybody's hand just shot up like just [TS]

  shot up since I've never seen any product where every single person just [TS]

  needed to have one right away it was amazing but anyway we're just smiling in [TS]

  internet I couldn't buy one in Canada I was there I saw 1i bought it i like to [TS]

  do and I've told the story before but all I could do for like a long time with [TS]

  slide to unlock to call 911 that was it i spend a bunch of money on something so [TS]

  incredible but you could use the only thing i could do is i want you to call [TS]

  the police to get never asked me for abusing a feature on my new phone and [TS]

  you can use it on Wi-Fi not until after jailbreak all that's right because that [TS]

  I could even jailbreak it at I'm telling you all I could do is slide that thing I [TS]

  totally forgot about that you had to unlock the carrier unlock it yeah you [TS]

  had to get it unlocked by AT&T before it would even work as a ipod touch that's [TS]

  right that's right yeah that's what I finally I was i slide the headline i [TS]

  would've bought 12 I would have done the same thing it was like me buying the mac [TS]

  as soon as jobs into the company would like next up but I was like a min let's [TS]

  see what you got [TS]

  so after the podcast I there was a friend and Apple are known for awhile [TS]

  still there so I can't say who but somebody and and I knew that they did he [TS]

  had disappeared for a while you know and in just disappeared in terms of like he [TS]

  was obviously working on something that was all-consuming and it turned out he [TS]

  was working on the you know [TS]

  was working on the you know [TS]

  first version was even called iOS yet and you know even then even though he [TS]

  could reveal that the ask this is what I've been working on these didn't always [TS]

  an apple person he still can't even off the record in private just you know and [TS]

  you know just commiserating after the show wasn't like anything but I had [TS]

  questions and you know would Apple friends always like to ask questions [TS]

  they just sometimes don't answer them you don't have to get used to that and i [TS]

  asked him i was like ok so if it's running even the most stripped-down [TS]

  version of OS 10 conceivable just really really lighter weight and really take a [TS]

  hatchet to all sorts of stuff that you know the demons and processes running in [TS]

  the background is like that is going to take forever to turn on compared to an [TS]

  ipod or like a regular cell phone and he just looked at me and smiled and he just [TS]

  said yes as though yes there we did there's no way to avoid that but you [TS]

  won't have to turn you know you what if you don't have to turn it off all the [TS]

  time and I was like oh and i realize like that is interesting and I think did [TS]

  that whole story was inspired by your like the way that like a unit most units [TS]

  machines were configured that at the turn of midnight just start doing a spew [TS]

  a whole bunch of automated system cleanup and log files and all this stuff [TS]

  and rotate on and do all this crazy stuff and just because all the units [TS]

  machines we knew to date did that doesn't mean that one that was built for [TS]

  consumers would have to do that too [TS]

  it's like you just step away and realize that that is a terrible assumption to [TS]

  make [TS]

  alright guys took that one step further in it and aid they didn't give you swap [TS]

  space right and just explained that if you're using more memory then is [TS]

  available to you [TS]

  typical unix systems will try to make it available to you by granting you [TS]

  disk-based swap out portions of whatever you working on [TS]

  instead it would tell you you getting very close to the limit here and then [TS]

  there wasn't even three strength right was like the second strike would say ok [TS]

  what you did I just kill you your Apple go away and that brought a new [TS]

  discipline to writing applications that it was foreign to the unix world where [TS]

  you presume that you had you know if not complete control at least you could [TS]

  marshal that the system into doing exactly what you wanted right especially [TS]

  once we got to the point where disk space was if not infinite was at least [TS]

  compared to ram infinite then once we started measuring hard disks in hundreds [TS]

  of gigabytes at least maybe even the early maybe even like 40 80 gigabyte [TS]

  sizes compared to ram that's just humongous and therefore unix is the game [TS]

  of we'll just pretend ram is infinite and write out what you're using to disk [TS]

  and move from disk back into actual ram what we need on-the-fly could work but [TS]

  that's exactly why in layman's terms in I mean in this doesn't happen anymore if [TS]

  you have SSDs and it probably doesn't happen anymore just because you don't [TS]

  really most of us don't need swap or at least don't mean much but in the days of [TS]

  spinning hard drives and low amount of ram when your system started to slow [TS]

  down and you'd hear hard drive for feeling knowing all the time that [TS]

  exactly why because it was constantly shuffling back and more inclusive visual [TS]

  thing [TS]

  well I'm kind of glad we did that memory lane thing right at the top of the show [TS]

  it gets a lot more context of this kind of stuff with the other foot getting the [TS]

  other philosophical aspect of traditional unix is that a process that [TS]

  starts running will run until it processed the process itself besides [TS]

  okay i'm done and now i'm leaving and you could have bugs that would crash the [TS]

  thing you as a user could take [TS]

  personal interaction and kill the process manually like did you know force [TS]

  quit but the system itself would do whatever it takes to make sure that it [TS]

  has bugs aside and user action aside you will run forever if you want to run [TS]

  forever and iOS like you said said you need to be ready to die in a moment's [TS]

  notice like traditional unix operating systems a bend over backwards and [TS]

  service of the applications that are running if you have any data that iOS [TS]

  bends over backwards right for the user right and for the interaction [TS]

  interactivity interactions yeah and so the idea of as a as a proper iOS [TS]

  developer is if you have any data that needs to be certain needs to be saved [TS]

  you need to save it constantly and at all times at any time it changes save it [TS]

  anytime it changes save it automatically because you might be killed at any [TS]

  moment and that's fair game [TS]

  you may be killed and then the user may come back to your lab and you're [TS]

  expected to be in the same spot to pretend like nothing happened and yeah i [TS]

  mean the home button used to just kill you [TS]

  yeah everytime automatically USA at the home button that whatever was running [TS]

  this [TS]

  yeah you know I have that discipline i really do like in the denominator has [TS]

  been hardcore the time it took for the prefer the animation to go back to the [TS]

  home screen you were expected to be completely cleaned up [TS]

  yeah you're good yeah got the boot but so anyway that that decision that [TS]

  fateful decision to go the cut-down version of OS 10 route effectively [TS]

  squeeze Tony Fadell out the door and sort of brought an end to that [TS]

  functional arrangement and then in $MONTH 2011 [TS]

  now that would be a division arrangement take ya the divisional manager I'm sorry [TS]

  nnnn incorrect and then in $MONTH 2011 with the Scott Forstall now stir it [TS]

  really ended it because effectively I think it's fair to say that Scott [TS]

  Forstall ran in iOS division within Apple name maybe that's a little too [TS]

  glib but it's you know it forestall that amount of maybe you know and there were [TS]

  obviously some parts that were shared between os's but they tended to filter [TS]

  back and forth [TS]

  years later right like and there was even an event the one time that they [TS]

  made that the theme of the event was called like the back of my mac back to [TS]

  the Mac the Mac yeah and it was look we've recreated a bunch of these cool [TS]

  technologies for iOS in the last few years and they actually these things [TS]

  would make sense I'm know as 10 and so we've taken them back to the mac as [TS]

  opposed to today's i would say extremely functionally a wine Apple where Craig [TS]

  federighi he's T&J software is in charge of software and yes there's some [TS]

  divisions and it seems like the watch OS team is sort of off on its own a but i [TS]

  don't think in a contentious way it's just in a they have to put their heads [TS]

  down [TS]

  no I don't think it's contentious that you're right it's early days right [TS]

  yeah exactly i think it makes sense for early days that you sort of get i think [TS]

  you could probably say the apple TV is kind of in the same boat again but apple [TS]

  TV is Right believe under 80 kia the I did think so but i don't i'm not [TS]

  entirely sure I'm pretty sure now that you're right and so Ben Thompson's [TS]

  argument is that this works great for devices [TS]

  Apple has proven that it works great in it it explains apples continue you know [TS]

  I wouldn't you know anything can end because it all depends on actual [TS]

  execution they have to it's easy so long as you keep making great products and [TS]

  that's actually a very you know the keep making great products is difficult in [TS]

  and of itself but if you do it's easy to keep keep them popular and to keep the [TS]

  integration between things that that makes apple stuff so you know famously [TS]

  fun and easy and and and attractive to use [TS]

  yeah and I in some ways that do think that it's folly to associate a the [TS]

  success of one company with the prominence of one kind of model like you [TS]

  don't whether one company succeeds or fails as a lot more to do with other [TS]

  factors and other than the particular model like you can't you can't i don't [TS]

  think you can look at any functional company and be like well they're bound [TS]

  to be like Apple because that's not the truth [TS]

  similarly don't think you can say that like I need company that follows a [TS]

  division organizational pattern is going to become like DuPont which is his you [TS]

  know his is example right right Ben's example is that for [TS]

  excuse me I think it's pretty interesting is to compare apple today to [TS]

  dupont from like a hundred years ago [TS]

  first we're well on our way to go to one department became huge by building one [TS]

  doing one thing which is making gunpowder and then 371 now is popular [TS]

  and then post-war they realized that gunpowder was a technical level very [TS]

  similar to making paint and a lot of stuff needed to be repainted me as a [TS]

  world war one and so they decided to take a weary and see what seemed like a [TS]

  natural area of growth for the two-point company was expanded into making paint [TS]

  and it yet somehow they ended up losing tons of money on the paint business [TS]

  because of even though it was similar to manufacture the market was entirely [TS]

  different right so selling gunpowder they would sell two massive fires like [TS]

  uh well I mean obviously the military be effective as it was I let the bullets [TS]

  yeah selling pain could be selling a monopod that are trying to like and how [TS]

  sir there you know this my business kind of think very different very different [TS]

  marketing very different packaging very different distributions games right and [TS]

  and you know they ended up having to switch and so they switched to [TS]

  a division division right so there's a paint division and gunpowder division in [TS]

  it and it worked out and then that became the model for a big corporations [TS]

  ever since and then now apples soon as the exception as opposed to a hundred [TS]

  years ago where were apples functional arrangement would have seen more natural [TS]

  so the question is should Apple services be split out into a divisional dad this [TS]

  is where this is the point of the whole point of Ben's thing is that this works [TS]

  great for apple with devices it is not working out well for them with services [TS]

  and apple themselves their executives on the quarterly call like lat three months [TS]

  ago emphasize their efforts into services and it's Ben's argument is that [TS]

  they should really should split services out into a separate division even [TS]

  account you know even do a separate profit and loss for that division and [TS]

  not even i think ok well II equivalents on and a little bit but it equivocate [TS]

  they should say but a separate profit loss would allow them to track the [TS]

  progress of the services division separately from the product division i [TS]

  can see I i I'm not entirely convinced that is right but I can definitely get [TS]

  it i see that he might be and and the difference is that i think and I think I [TS]

  you know I think he makes this . too but that the traditional divisional nature [TS]

  is what creates intercompany political conflict that blocks the data it often [TS]

  leads to this is why a company never tends to disrupt itself that if Apple [TS]

  had a culture like that then the the iphone where they never would have even [TS]

  debated whether it was the ipod division that would make the iphone because of [TS]

  course they did because the ipod was the new hot thing at apple at the name and [TS]

  then the ipod division might have made designed an iphone that was designed to [TS]

  make sure that that didn't keep people from wanting to still buy an ipod [TS]

  and the little could just go forward a little bit more than the if there was an [TS]

  iphone division and $STREET and steve jobs wanted to make a tablet they would [TS]

  have been political and you know resistance within the company of but [TS]

  what if these tablets make people not by as many iphones and so on and so forth [TS]

  whenever the magnetization particular would say no way what about you know the [TS]

  macbook macbooks are the heart and soul in the only part of our business it's [TS]

  growing and clearly this tablet which you guys you've won even make a keyboard [TS]

  for is something that's going to how could it not how can everyone of these [TS]

  that you sell for only seven hundred and fifty dollars not mean that someone is [TS]

  less likely to buy one of our things for $1,500 hey what I mean just look at the [TS]

  new smaller ipad pro with it just have a couple of days ago updated MacBook right [TS]

  uh I don't know I they're very much seem to be in the same spectrum moment [TS]

  without question [TS]

  I mean it's you know it's which one you prefer but it's in Hannah in a [TS]

  divisional and I you know I i know enough about apple in time you know and [TS]

  I have enough friends who work there and you do to that i'm not arguing that [TS]

  Apple is a company without internal politics and without grumbling between [TS]

  people who work on this and people who work on that or people who even if the [TS]

  what they're working on isn't isn't even in conflict with each other but a lot of [TS]

  times that the most astute critics of things within Apple that are subpar are [TS]

  other people at Apple who work on something else who that the whole point [TS]

  of the whole reason they work at Apple have a career Apple as they tend to be [TS]

  very talented people with very high standards for how stuff works that they [TS]

  get the Apple way I'd even remove the the provision that they work on [TS]

  something else [TS]

  yes honey i honestly think people that work at Apple or their own worst critics [TS]

  that's it that's a fantastic . that is this true [TS]

  honestly kind of what makes them write a great company right look at that kind of [TS]

  the key right and that sometimes when you talk to people at Apple the people [TS]

  who i think are the best and the people are my golf course of course you're [TS]

  successful at Apple are the people who [TS]

  you're exactly right they are the ones who know all the things that suck about [TS]

  the thing that they work on and you say hey the new buddy call is really great [TS]

  and they'll be like thanks but I mean come on and then they know everything [TS]

  that's wrong with it and it's like oh yeah of course you work at Apple and the [TS]

  people who want to brag about this stuff to work on your like you're not gonna [TS]

  last long [TS]

  yeah you know i mean we're talking on you and I think we were probably there [TS]

  together we're talking to people worked on earlier iphones and telling them how [TS]

  awesome that touch interaction is and then they're like oh my god i can get it [TS]

  to go look if I do this in this way below 60 frames-per-second you can feel [TS]

  like they knew all the pads to get to do something that would make scrolling or [TS]

  whatever drop any 60 frames per second and they're like that's the seduction [TS]

  yeah you just built the weather always but the time it ships to on to the next [TS]

  thing right exactly but that's exactly why they keep getting better you're over [TS]

  here is that they're exhausted by the end it's there it's what it just as a I [TS]

  don't know as a better metaphor a you did you cook ever use sometimes I cook a [TS]

  few things [TS]

  ok so you know when you cook and then you like okay whatever that back over [TS]

  here as well [TS]

  ok sorry but whatever when you cook something and then you're you're eating [TS]

  it and you're always there at the hallways and the harshest critic and [TS]

  like a didn't work out so well I could have left this a little bit more [TS]

  this could be a little bit more tender and everybody else is like would you [TS]

  shut up and stop being a dick [TS]

  yes I'm trying to enjoy this you know the meal and I'm always like yeah maybe [TS]

  next time I'll do this and that's just because that's the way of my words and i [TS]

  think it apple with software or hardware think that's what you're thinking it's [TS]

  like okay that came out of the oven pretty good i'm happy clap that shift [TS]

  now you know how do i improve on that [TS]

  that's absolutely me does most of the cooking here and that's absolutely how [TS]

  she is she's way wait she's our own harshest critic now and it's it to show [TS]

  you if you're a good person a good worker who's focused on improving the [TS]

  product that's the way your mindset has to be and if you're a sort of [TS]

  self-centered person [TS]

  who's more worried about your own career or just just the way other people [TS]

  perceive you because you your your you know if I can influence very already [TS]

  complex or something like that that then you're gonna you're gonna want to make [TS]

  people think that whatever you've done is awesome and perfect and you know and [TS]

  laugh at the competition and stuff like that you can see left the country [TS]

  well yeah sometimes they suck but you know what I you know what I don't [TS]

  totally know what you mean yeah it's like this there's a difference between [TS]

  laughing at them and discounting yeah you still I still sometimes meet people [TS]

  at Apple who and I'm exaggerating but it in some degree seem to buy into the [TS]

  where Apple whatever we do is going to be the best you know sort of thinking [TS]

  that the exceptionalism of Apple is just that's just the rules of the game or [TS]

  whatever Apple makes his excellent just because it's apple now that's not my [TS]

  fear that's played hard and African what I'm exaggerating that that you know [TS]

  putting it in words like it but there's a certain mindset that you buy into that [TS]

  even a little bit and it's I to me it's a very dangerous way of thinking and [TS]

  it's a natural trap to fall into but the best people don't have that mindset I [TS]

  let me interrupt the show breaking news to do to do to do the thing I was [TS]

  talking about the ethernet old-school not ethernet what's up before you turn [TS]

  it a local talk but it did work over ethernet either talk to while either [TS]

  talk was like local talk over ethernet but that was expensive we couldn't do [TS]

  that indoor anyway the name of the app was broadcast it was awesome it was [TS]

  awesome at four locations just put forward and hadn't guessed that one [TS]

  broadcast all the good name that's a great name i will see i will do my best [TS]

  to find a link for the show notes that shows it so what do you think [TS]

  about this service well I can kind of so-so in in a follow-up piece that is I [TS]

  don't think its public at now is honest is a subscriber only newsletter which we [TS]

  maybe you should ask him to make that given all the time of the few times he [TS]

  really has have ever had anything like that whatever that now it's like a week [TS]

  old [TS]

  I'll see what I can do yeah I'm you clarify some of his points he gets a lot [TS]

  more detail into into his thinking and and also acknowledges some of the d de [TS]

  some trepidation I should say about like switching into it [TS]

  switching and services into its own division but does bring out the point [TS]

  that apple retail was Ryan has its own division for a long time right [TS]

  because running in retail division is fundamentally different than winning you [TS]

  know hardware/software organization is that not true phus services to yeah I [TS]

  almost think that the online services are of a very closely analogous to the [TS]

  stores where the services are just glue that that that is there to make the [TS]

  devices better the devices are still the fundamental business of the company and [TS]

  the services are just a the stores are just a way to get more of the devices [TS]

  sold and the services are just a way to make the devices better once you on them [TS]

  it's like what the stores are before you have the new Apple device in your hand [TS]

  the services are to what you do with it after you open it open it starting well [TS]

  okay so it is where I don't know if I'm even playing devil's advocate but I'm [TS]

  gonna come at this from a different aspect and the stores [TS]

  ok [TS]

  saying stories with just a way to push Mac products okay fine but are the [TS]

  services just a way to push the devices or are they have things themselves well [TS]

  as what Apple is kind of been saying but I think though that the all of it isn't [TS]

  further serving the apple brand as a whole right i mean because that's why [TS]

  the stores are nice right there the nicest stores some of the nicest stores [TS]

  i've ever seen that sell any products anywhere in that that there is famously [TS]

  don't go full Trump on this but they are they IM not IM just joking but and [TS]

  they're very anti-trump Ian in their design yes sir [TS]

  yeah whether they're not or no opposite yeah they are you know architectural [TS]

  very minimalist I you know but that famously you know that the earlier [TS]

  stores i don't think they use the same attorney more but they got a special [TS]

  kind of limestone from Italy that Steve Jobs had seen while while traveling in [TS]

  Europe and all sorts of crazy stuff that they do to make every detail right now [TS]

  it's not like hey let's there's no sense of cheaping out in the stores and i [TS]

  think that the services should be the same way where it's not like well this [TS]

  is just an afterthought to help that I think they should they should be thought [TS]

  of as these things that are first-class parts of the Apple brand and the Apple [TS]

  you know customer experience [TS]

  ok so what are the surfaces can you write them i guess that sounded like I'm [TS]

  challenging you i don't i'm honestly I'm like okay what are they [TS]

  well the ones area one area where I disagree with Ben and we do it on the [TS]

  podcast occasionally is he has a lower opinion of apples online services than I [TS]

  do [TS]

  I actually think apples online services are a lot better than they get credit [TS]

  for and I think in many cases many cases suffer from just that the notion the [TS]

  basic notion that people believe Apple makes great devices and creamy services [TS]

  and by starting with that framework in their mind they're a lot more likely to [TS]

  have a two to focus on the negative aspects of of Apple services and then [TS]

  secondly some of them suffer from [TS]

  a bad first impression when maps is a great example of that where a lot of [TS]

  people some people and and real-world usage Apple maps is off the charts its [TS]

  way by far and away the most popular map service for iphone and iOS users and [TS]

  part of that is just by nature of being pre-installed but secondarily it's [TS]

  gotten a lot better and I am i arguing that is it is as good as Google Maps no [TS]

  but i don't i don't use google maps anymore just because I never I never you [TS]

  know that that whole like i'll keep the app installed because if Apple maps lets [TS]

  me down i use google maps that hasn't happened to me in forever at least since [TS]

  the transit came to New York and Apple maps and I think in arguably anybody who [TS]

  looked at Apple maps just the general state of how much is mapped into much [TS]

  detail its it much improved so i'm not i'm not as down on services overall and [TS]

  maps is just one example but anything like that map's I message iCloud more [TS]

  wait let's so let's take I message as a as a service the value proposition have [TS]

  I message is that it's encrypted and to end and it works across all your devices [TS]

  and that's all you iOS devices and your Mac okay all your Apple devices [TS]

  how do you ensure it that is true if like how do you put that into web [TS]

  browser [TS]

  I don't think this should I wouldn't ok so that limits the value of the service [TS]

  to write the Apple devices right that's what i'm saying is i see like Heidi [TS]

  breakout services [TS]

  apart from the devices that they support right I see what you mean you're saying [TS]

  you know i can t make a division that is all about so Microsoft did it and and [TS]

  you were on board for it with a sure where they could just be like you know [TS]

  what screw windows and office which is going to make an awesome service [TS]

  yeah that's different than what Apple can do with the services that they [TS]

  currently run because they seem a [TS]

  you know quite integrated with the you know the devices or at least the notion [TS]

  that they have trusted endpoint and it's it kind of conflicted you're going to [TS]

  start saying hey and you report your own profit and loss and you're not allowed [TS]

  to expand to windows or android right web are are you cutting you know [TS]

  youryour that becomes a strategy Jackson like you're cutting them off at the [TS]

  knees [TS]

  you're saying we're going to count we're going to we want you to be as profitable [TS]

  as you can but where we're setting rules that will prevent you from being as [TS]

  profitable as as you could be as it just as an independent entity because we [TS]

  think it serves the company's interests over all right and I don't think they [TS]

  face that with the detail because it couldn't really conflict with air [TS]

  yeah there weren't any rules there weren't at the water any strategy tax [TS]

  type rules imposed upon the apple store that held them back right for example [TS]

  they're not sure that if Ron Johnson back in the day had said to Steve Jobs [TS]

  hey I some of these people are coming in and they want to buy windows laptops to [TS]

  can we sell some dell windows you know Dell laptops on the table across from [TS]

  the powerbooks and jobs would have said you're fired right but he wouldn't have [TS]

  done that actually it did that actually wouldn't have actually helped the apple [TS]

  stores make more money that if it's in theory I you could see out you know [TS]

  turning it into more of like a best buy where they sell anything and everything [TS]

  defeats the whole purpose which was to focus you know that by putting all the [TS]

  apple stuff together and showing that it was different [TS]

  actually made it more likely that they would sell them but they did sell [TS]

  accessories that went on apple and even competed with apple stuff like [TS]

  headphones [TS]

  yeah yeah they still do ya still did [TS]

  and I'm gonna take a lot of beads which is the biggest one but they don't impose [TS]

  a rule on the that you can only sell apple stuff like headphones you know [TS]

  it's we can't you can't sell a book this was the book that jobs got yanked the [TS]

  house was one a long time ago i forget which it yeah I was funny just what I'd [TS]

  I honestly admire dick did just preciousness of that kind of stuff [TS]

  why didn't did they used to sell books is that I don't know I but I mean you [TS]

  remember the story i'm sure you've heard about it right [TS]

  I do remember what I mean it wasn't even that long ago but I remember when I used [TS]

  to sell tons and tons of box software [TS]

  yeah yeah well some of your friends like on me and that you know shit like [TS]

  delicious monster had some stuff [TS]

  oh yeah we're definitely know people who had I think BP and it was still on in [TS]

  boxes at the time yeah yeah I'm Karen fact I know that BB at some point was [TS]

  still in the box and when it was in a box it was in the apple store's security [TS]

  text box software is a herd [TS]

  I mean people hit the App Store wow the thirty percent rockstar than thirty [TS]

  percent you lose on the app store is nothing compared to what you lost $MONEY [TS]

  in bonds software examine we could do all show about it but it's and you know [TS]

  it from the games too [TS]

  I mean it was exactly the same probably even worse because that there was more [TS]

  money involved or it but it i mean you literally buying spots to be like how [TS]

  much money is it going to cost us to have it at Foot level part of the reason [TS]

  that like not even I level like foot level it's a protection racket is it was [TS]

  yeah it was like okay we'll take it but we're only we're going to put it on the [TS]

  bottom shelf which is like ankle level was really got to talk to him into [TS]

  taking it right like dinners and like and like just flirty girls like to hold [TS]

  it was it's a nightmare but the night like talking to sales did shake not cool [TS]

  I'm glad all of that aspect is gone but at the same time it's like still not [TS]

  great in terms of actually getting you know the way the absolute working with [TS]

  this I don't want my box at the ankle level well then you have to pay [TS]

  yeah and it was exactly why a person I'm not a jagged basement and there was no [TS]

  way to sell like even a relatively small app that you knew would appeal to like [TS]

  consumers and that you'd want to be like a consumer-friendly price there was no [TS]

  way to like price it accordingly because so much money came off the top that you [TS]

  had to charge like $75 that just as a starting point if not more [TS]

  I don't we can come back to let me take a break and thank our next sponsor it's [TS]

  our good friends at Squarespace this episode is brought to you by Squarespace [TS]

  start building your website today at use the offer code [TS]

  Gruber my last name GRU BR at checkout [TS]

  when you buy and you get ten percent off now what type of website can you build [TS]

  with squarespace much better question would be what type of website you can't [TS]

  build with squarespace Squarespace is gotten amazing it's always been a good [TS]

  product always been a good hosting service but you go to squarespace and [TS]

  they take care of everything you start an account you start you tell them what [TS]

  type of site you want to build a store a blog podcast a portfolio site if you're [TS]

  an artist anything like that just tell you know you go through its all visual [TS]

  then they show you templates for that type of site and you pick a template and [TS]

  you pick features that you want that you have and then you see it [TS]

  what you see is the actual website that you would have if you turn it on and [TS]

  make it live and any changes you make you don't make the code you just make [TS]

  them when you're logged into your account as the account owner you just [TS]

  make them visually it is truly wysiwyg brought to the web where you're in the [TS]

  web browser looking at your site and you just move this stuff and change the [TS]

  stuff right there as you're looking at it [TS]

  it is phenomenal and they've you guys have heard of square space for a long [TS]

  time I mean they have been around for awhile but they're relentless on moving [TS]

  this forward the plat whole platform forward and making it more and more [TS]

  powerful and expanding into more and more things professionally designed [TS]

  websites really really amazing looks very modern intuitive and easy-to-use [TS]

  tools for editing and publishing and changing they even take care of stuff [TS]

  like domain names if you need one [TS]

  so here's what you do start your free trial site today for any type of site [TS]

  you might want to just go there see if you can make it in square space for free [TS]

  at and then when you do sign up just make sure to use that offer [TS]

  code Gruber and you will save ten percent and they'll know that you came [TS]

  to them from here from the show so my thanks to squarespace yeah I don't know [TS]

  back to whether or not agree with them [TS]

  I don't know it makes a good case maybe the answer is sort of a half-and-half [TS]

  and I don't know maybe that's stupid [TS]

  maybe I'm trying to have it both ways but maybe i would say not so much the [TS]

  profit-and-loss aspect of it and again I message is another example how are they [TS]

  supposed to make money money on my message [TS]

  there's no money you know but if you know compared to these other chat [TS]

  services like what's happened and we chat and stuff like that i think if you [TS]

  broke my message i mean they can strategically there is no way to break [TS]

  it out but just in terms of daily active users which is like this measurement [TS]

  term that you know investors love to hear at least at the moment I message is [TS]

  worth billions but there's no real way that they have a plan to make money [TS]

  they're not going to start shooting ads through I message and i think i think if [TS]

  anything at I message is one of the most obvious a soda-can arguments to breaking [TS]

  and services out from the rest of the company and in that getting have blue [TS]

  balloon is awesome [TS]

  yeah and I message being part of the iphone experiences is huge here it and [TS]

  and and so in one in so in his first piece band argues that people buy [TS]

  iphones for the software and hardware and I agree but I message is a big thing [TS]

  for me it really is i remember texting you back in the day and will cost [TS]

  seventy-five cents a text right because we're across the international border [TS]

  crossing international borders talking about mad men or whatever and that [TS]

  racked up pretty quick and I like you but I don't like you that much [TS]

  that's a dollar yeah but ya know I message fix that so that's great and [TS]

  yeah sure whats app could and like a bunch of other stuff but I I think I [TS]

  message is one of those things that ties closely to iOS or Apple devices did [TS]

  argues for a better into creation of services with apple products the whole [TS]

  thing about preferring blue bubbles to green bubbles even if you take cost [TS]

  aside even if it's us to us and so you know that it's out of your jacket is [TS]

  obviously subjective it bothers some people because it's sort of a if not [TS]

  classism it is some sort of a try to listen yet tribal as about say tried [TS]

  mentality so you same thing tribalism which it just is innately offensive or [TS]

  maybe offensive is too strong a word but people object to it and for good reason [TS]

  right that human beings have this natural instinct to be tribal and it's [TS]

  that sort of thinking that leads if you take it to the extreme to you know [TS]

  intolerance if not outright racism bigotry bigotry of what you want what [TS]

  have you that that you really have to be conscious of it all the way up to the [TS]

  top level and that therefore it's it's just unsavory and I get that I really do [TS]

  I joke about the blue bubbles and green bubble sometimes but I get it when [TS]

  there's people who really you know push back on that I do get just I [TS]

  I honestly don't think that was an intentional design decision in order to [TS]

  ostracise anybody know I don't know either i think that Katie's once across [TS]

  some money and these ones aren't [TS]

  yeah and i think it was worth knowing you know who had them [TS]

  yeah but there's an interesting objective version you know not [TS]

  subjective but object of advantage to it at least one which is that you know that [TS]

  the emoji you send are going to look the same i just saw an article this week I [TS]

  didn't link to it i don't know why i didn't do it from during fire but there [TS]

  was an article that somebody did a study that showed that people interpret it [TS]

  emoji from different platforms differently and that means certain code [TS]

  points like you know it's like face with the you know grinning teeth and it it [TS]

  has a different emotional effect you know based on the iOS version of it [TS]

  compared to the Android or Twitter right and you know just subtle cues and it [TS]

  just some of the each vendor that map [TS]

  I don't know if everybody know is getting it like what you see on your [TS]

  screen is not what somebody else sees on their screen right hand and face with [TS]

  gleaming teeth on your screen may look I don't I don't know this but like let's [TS]

  say like the two buck teeth on the other screen like so it looks like you're just [TS]

  having us wide smile on your screen but you look like you're sending it like a [TS]

  hick right of stereotypical hick in Oregon to the other person on the screen [TS]

  and a when you're dealing with a particularly dense communication stream [TS]

  like emoticons that becomes problematic right right users and I don't know that [TS]

  maybe people don't worry about it or I do a little bit cuz i find i always you [TS]

  know I mean it's a shocker given my career I really it pains me to think [TS]

  that I'm not commit you know people aren't understanding what i'm trying to [TS]

  communicate as clearly as possible [TS]

  and have you given into murder constant chat i don't think we do it [TS]

  no i-i've never did I and an emoji of save me from it i've never really was a [TS]

  big user of of like the the ascii art you know smiley faces i mean IDK i'm not [TS]

  going to say I never sent them but I've just found them to be too silly so I [TS]

  didn't and yeah I think he used them with my I use emojis though I use emoji [TS]

  now you know i'm not going to say like a teenager but I you know use it quite a [TS]

  bit using more slack than anywhere else [TS]

  yeah I use them on Twitter know sometimes I don't give a lot of thumbs [TS]

  up on Twitter [TS]

  oh yeah yeah because it's i find it to be exceptionally efficient you know [TS]

  yeah that's what that's one there's one that across-the-board nobody's going to [TS]

  misinterpret it doesn't matter how you drive a thumbs up or thumbs down [TS]

  yeah it's kind of a sailboat like yeah I mean yeah I find it to be it's it's it's [TS]

  a great addition to our you know it'sit's it said you know obviously I [TS]

  thought it was silly at first consignment curmudgeon but once I opened [TS]

  my mind to it I really thought this is great this is a great improvement and so [TS]

  much better than ask yard you know colon going a friend its coverage [TS]

  yeah i mean if I'm writing something there's no way I'm going to use it if [TS]

  I'm reacting to something I feel better but I don't have ever spoken about this [TS]

  in recent years i have spoken too i think you you would know you're closer [TS]

  reader to know that in my writing I don't really use a lot of exclamation [TS]

  marks no very yeah but in like email come on two hands an email i use them a [TS]

  lot i use what i consider to be the friendly be friendly ! work and here's a [TS]

  perfect example and it's a very common example is people often send me typo [TS]

  reports maybe I've spelled a word wrong where I've made a little mark down here [TS]

  or error in the post where I i used the wrong parentheses or I missed missed [TS]

  something and you see you know like a raw URL that's clearly supposed to be [TS]

  hyperlink and people will email me or Twitter be you know and say you got a [TS]

  typo [TS]

  well a lot of people it'sit's don't think everybody knows this it consider [TS]

  correcting someone spelling or punctuation on dinner [TS]

  not to be a faux pas at your you the person pointing out the error or the [TS]

  jerk because you're pointing out you know I i love it i have i would rather [TS]

  have a hundred people tell me about a spelling error matter and daring [TS]

  fireball then to have it go on corrected because everybody thinks it's you know [TS]

  either either thinks I'm sure someone else told him or I don't want to be the [TS]

  jerk to tell to tell John that he has an airtight so and i try to I can't hide [TS]

  sometimes sometimes and if i post and then go make coffee or go run an errand [TS]

  and it's that the error is up for an hour I get a lot of them and it's almost [TS]

  I'd like I can't be bothered to thank everybody but if i fix it right away i [TS]

  try to thank everybody and I'll often right fixed comma thanks and put an [TS]

  exclamation mark after the thanks because to me that reads as very [TS]

  friendly and unambiguously what do I mean by fixed comma thanks ! to me it's [TS]

  I don't know it's just maybe the way i read that ! it's fixed and a genuine [TS]

  thanks [TS]

  whereas if I wrote fixed comma thanks . I can see how that would be [TS]

  misinterpreted naughty as yes as dry ya fiction [TS]

  thanks yeah thanks for me thanks I think I think you only ever send me fixed the [TS]

  additive you that I don't care it's not you know give me but I just because I [TS]

  don't need it and I find and I added and and it years ago I mean I don't know how [TS]

  many years ago I started doing that but it was uncomfortable with it because I'm [TS]

  so uncomfortable with exclamation part more points to be to be at to me a false [TS]

  sense of familiarity and friend yes you know and and to me and for example in [TS]

  marketing materials almost every single ! that's used in any marketing material [TS]

  is terrible it's a terrible and it means that whoever is is is Right doing a [TS]

  copywriting is full of shit [TS]

  it is is it is exactly why some people think the word marketing is a dirty word [TS]

  and all good brands you know with good marketing either never use exclamation [TS]

  marks or almost never and when they do there's some kind of good argument for [TS]

  right but find me an ad from BMW with an exclamation mark and finally an ad from [TS]

  apple with an exclamation mark and it's nearly impossible so anybody out there [TS]

  and it's 80 and it's awful also a rookie mistake it's a mistake that someone [TS]

  makes doing their own marketing when they're not used to doing marketing [TS]

  because they think that their infusing the material with enthusiasm when what [TS]

  they're really infusing it with his bullshit and an air of desperation and [TS]

  says yeah yeah because they could say something completely accurate right but [TS]

  when you put an exclamation mark it's like you're trying to really call [TS]

  something out but i agree with you in casual communication and especially [TS]

  these days you know it just a friendly way being like oh thanks I get it [TS]

  long story single-leg mean it's it's a modifier if you reading it out line at [TS]

  out loud it's a modifier on the way that that sound should be right like it goes [TS]

  up [TS]

  yeah well thanks oh thanks yes different 2 and as I do more podcasts as they do [TS]

  priority i don't really do a lot of podcasts plural but as I podcast more [TS]

  and more i have grown lazy and my writing not lazy but I've grown to [TS]

  appreciate the fact that i can use inflection on a podcast in a way that [TS]

  takes a lot more mental effort in prose to continue to be unambiguous about that [TS]

  you know whether you're being sarcastic or not or something and when you need to [TS]

  set up also a I think it doesn't help you [TS]

  ok that's a bad way to start a sentence but it doesn't help you that like a lot [TS]

  of year in your linked list it's like one word you know [TS]

  yeah the towards basically so if you then write with gravity its red in the [TS]

  same voices like these one word retorts that you use in England list [TS]

  mmm yeah i've used emoji on during fireball few times to just like twice [TS]

  though happy i miss that at him [TS]

  I need a better way to do it what's that is that had my dad's side I need to look [TS]

  into it there is some sort of i wouldn't not that i would use it frequently but [TS]

  there but part of what makes me unlikely to use it frequently is the whole issue [TS]

  of avenging grab the rendering and not even being able to control the long-term [TS]

  rendering on apple and iOS devices soonest if and when they're ever going [TS]

  to redraw some of the some of the class yeah happy face could be a swastika like [TS]

  next weekend you have no control right trying to see that I just sent you a [TS]

  link to this bird story on the study that shows people interpreting emoji [TS]

  differently in the way it's the one with gritting teeth is a really good one [TS]

  because it's on all the other platforms and I don't know exactly which what the [TS]

  name of the it's grinning face with smiling eyes [TS]

  yeah I and apples glyph makes it look like somebody who is man I you ciera [TS]

  keith it's not a smile and it's almost like you've just said the wrong thing [TS]

  right right like like the look you would give if you just mentioned somebody's [TS]

  son or like their mother hey how's your mother and then like something you know [TS]

  all of a sudden you remember that their mother died recently [TS]

  yeah something like that that the sort of green you would make in that [TS]

  situation is seething like sorry about that [TS]

  whereas the microsoft samsung LG and Google ones are all unambiguously a [TS]

  toothy smile you know it's all happy they're all happy perfect example and so [TS]

  there is there's a value I message in the fact that you and maybe people don't [TS]

  think about it consciously but you're you're you know what the other person is [TS]

  going to see what weight between that mean that I message should normalize to [TS]

  what is evident i personally i prefer the apple logo i think it looks at days [TS]

  and it's useful it's usable anyway that and I don't think that there's an it is [TS]

  useful but doesn't match the grinning face with smiling eyes [TS]

  well the other descriptions emoji even but even with the other ones this study [TS]

  a sign you know old people on whether they think this is a negative [TS]

  connotation or positive kind [TS]

  station of the glove even among the other ones there's a fairly wide variety [TS]

  they're all positive and apples is- don't- that group to wait closer [TS]

  together did but but there's a difference like the difference between [TS]

  Microsoft and Google is over over a point on a 5-point scale i agree that [TS]

  there's my god a you come on do know the Bible Atlas is a four-point difference [TS]

  between Microsoft and Apple in the negative Direction no no I'm not trying [TS]

  to argue that on the case of this particular one that Apple is not an [TS]

  outlier and i know i'm not i'm not arguing about it but I'm saying though I [TS]

  even not counting Apple it's interesting to me that the ones who agree on the [TS]

  basic sense of it still have a different [TS]

  oh sure I that that and I think for most of the emoji that that's probably the [TS]

  case i don't think any know i think most of them there is no outlier but there's [TS]

  still a agree the other thing is context a emerging very suddenly make sense [TS]

  without any words random right at least context of in in a conversation so while [TS]

  you could look at like madden what this tested and say okay what do you think [TS]

  about each one of these emoji you could feel totally different given the [TS]

  researchers surveyed online respondents on how they interpreted the emojis [TS]

  sentiment rating it on a scale from negative 5 strongly negative 2 plus 5 [TS]

  strongly positive i have you know what okay what I don't think I've ever uses [TS]

  happen emoji I our friend of the show pocket fastest he likes to use that [TS]

  emoji as I as there as a person who is eight and observer of the uncomfortable [TS]

  aspects of life [TS]

  yeah right the impossible is what that says right he likes to document you know [TS]

  that sort of with the weird and you know on on his one foot tsunami and yeah in [TS]

  personal correspondence he will often you know is if I I that's one person I [TS]

  know who has sent me that [TS]

  LG but goodies face with smiling eyes is the name of that emoji do you think [TS]

  Apple has accurately be rendered that notion [TS]

  no I think not although so I male like the but although uncomfortable and [TS]

  totally into yeah i think the problem with it is that it doesn't what it's not [TS]

  the eyes it's the grin because to me a grin [TS]

  I mean yeah maybe i'm wrong me but I to me a grim implies the smile that grin is [TS]

  a subset of a smile [TS]

  whereas that is absolutely not a smile now that's the ticket [TS]

  that's it drawn to you tuesday nights like this should be if like the name of [TS]

  that emoji should be embarrassed to sake [TS]

  yeah yeah at which I really i firmly believe is it perfectly valid emoji to [TS]

  have yeah and that's a great representation of it [TS]

  yeah here's the definite dictionary definition of grin [TS]

  it is a smile broadly especially in an unrestored manner with the mouth open [TS]

  tennis appears the example Dennis appeared grinning use cheerfully as a [TS]

  noun it is a broad smile so dad definitely I think that I think that the [TS]

  winning team is in accurately rendered but now it's too late or is it I don't [TS]

  know because if they change it then all sorts of things that all sorts of ways [TS]

  that it's already been used are changed meaning until you talkin to and that's [TS]

  the problem right emoji are words that when i send them to you change meaning [TS]

  for the show's really I've I love her like I love it but its northern it says [TS]

  this is nowhere near the list and stuff we're getting into the lung linguistics [TS]

  i love it [TS]

  I yeah and that is sort of the there is an advantage there to the old-school [TS]

  ascii emoticon artwork where it's a little bit a little bit more defined [TS]

  right like your semicolon might look different than my semicolon but I still [TS]

  yeah i know stupid Winky when I see it right [TS]

  a-and leaving now we got here a little so well for you . my message and [TS]

  services and whether they should be broken apart and so we get asked i also [TS]

  wonder I here at that one specifically morning and as I and I as I wonder that [TS]

  the that's actually that the one we're talking about i'm looking at the study [TS]

  now I should that I'll link to this study in in the show notes i promise i'm [TS]

  copying basing now they have examples of the ones with the biggest Delta's though [TS]

  gritting teeth one is not only his apple an outlier as the emoji that particular [TS]

  the the distance from which that it there's no other emoji that they studied [TS]

  that has a spread like that it just means something different [TS]

  yeah it's actually and I think concentrating on that one in particular [TS]

  actually you lose the general context of the study which is that even with the [TS]

  ones where they're generally all compliant with the description people [TS]

  have a different interpretation of of what they mean [TS]

  intern at least the sentiment of being positive and right which i think is a [TS]

  super interesting . you know that I think the verge and it's not a knock but [TS]

  you know whatever they picked the most illustrative . because it's easier to [TS]

  write about [TS]

  well yeah I mean look at that you know that's clearly an outlier and that you [TS]

  know makes you want to kind of learn more about it so it's really nice and [TS]

  knock on them but it's like it really illustrates it look people on different [TS]

  platforms will see different things [TS]

  yeah Ben Thompson's but if he's listening if he does listen to the show [TS]

  he's probably screaming at us that we're not talking about stickers which has [TS]

  been a big ben's a big fan and study or of the chat services the ones that are [TS]

  cross-platform like what's happened wechat those things have these things [TS]

  called stickers which are like emoji but their custom to the service and it's [TS]

  just sending an image like an emoji and you know maybe around the holiday [TS]

  they'll come out with a custom a whole set of them about Christmas so instead [TS]

  of just like an emoji [TS]

  you've got like Santa Claus on Christmas tree you could have a whole set of [TS]

  stickers all about christmas or or whatever or the world how is so down on [TS]

  that but you know what would it wouldn't you know that i talked to more slack and [TS]

  sometimes I don't even care that it actually respond to him but I'll do one [TS]

  of those reaction emoji exactly and i have been you kind of got me on this [TS]

  sticker stuff so I don't know I you know the more i talk about it with you and [TS]

  more I'm starting to disagree with him I want to scream the end I should get a [TS]

  money shot because he sees you he won't he's never done the show you has he [TS]

  yeah we talked about it is i'm pretty sure he's gonna make sure let me look at [TS]

  the archives it's gonna bet it's like three times at least in all right ten [TS]

  times and it's now maybe five maybe I just search for Thompson on the page and [TS]

  it shows up it'll show up twice for each one because I mention them in the title [TS]

  and so yeah it took you know what he's never doing it again didn't know tell [TS]

  you that right now didn't actually forget he's been on twice since august [TS]

  last year and is probably more often than i am probably and four times in the [TS]

  last year [TS]

  what about Apple music is an apple music already sort of a standalone out man [TS]

  and they they have to sort of do profit and loss on that I mean they know how [TS]

  many subscribers they are and I know how much they're paying you know whether [TS]

  they actually count it and in and hold it accountable and have goals for it and [TS]

  you're getting fired if you don't meet this the way some people would some [TS]

  companies winner divisions surely they know exactly how much Apple music is [TS]

  making and how much it's costing and therefore they know whether it's [TS]

  profitable or not and they know what the Delta is month-to-month I mean and we [TS]

  know it because they leak things like the number of customers you know [TS]

  subscribers it's very very committed hey I honestly it's like so bad and getting [TS]

  getting back to the press tags a benz basic argument is that whatever gets [TS]

  measured gets fixed [TS]

  there's no way they don't know if Apple music is making losing money and it's [TS]

  not that they say that they don't have profit and loss in the company is that [TS]

  they be port one level of profit and loss right which is a very different [TS]

  thing I don't think that means internally that they don't worry about [TS]

  this kind of stuff and I message right i don't think that so they expanded what I [TS]

  cloud drive storage [TS]

  yes there's no way they did that without considering profit/loss no way [TS]

  well of course not because they charge for that right you know is that clearly [TS]

  they've got some numbers [TS]

  yeah and in fact I'm telling the more talk about it the more I it's a great [TS]

  piece but I still it the more i talk about it the more I think I disagree [TS]

  that that's a guide totally agree that he has he's identified a problem [TS]

  I don't think though we as proposed solution is right because to me [TS]

  iCloud Drive another example where it they don't do profit and loss across you [TS]

  know the way other companies do but you would never guess that by the way they [TS]

  charge for iCloud storage right for based on the way that that they charge [TS]

  for iCloud storage you would think the opposite you would think this is a [TS]

  company where somebody in the iCloud division has a gun to their head that [TS]

  they're supposed to make a lot of money on this [TS]

  yeah because they charge more than anybody [TS]

  yeah boy for why penny and there's another one to iCloud drive to me works [TS]

  amazingly well I honestly in my experience and I know somebody out there [TS]

  is going to disagree and think that i'm smoking Apple dope or something but I i [TS]

  find that it is up to dropbox quality which is invisible that I never if i'm [TS]

  editing you know apps that I know use that use iCloud Drive like you have a [TS]

  couple of important number spreadsheet at this point when I save stuff in [TS]

  numbers [TS]

  I know that it's there and I can go to a different mac or a different device and [TS]

  it's going to be there [TS]

  it's just there that's not it i still use dropbox because i use it in [TS]

  different ways and drop boxes more is a lot easier to use as a sort of junk [TS]

  drawer where you just put anything and everything and have it go everywhere and [TS]

  iCloud drive to me still works best in the mindset of hey the documents for [TS]

  numbers you go two numbers you know it's not really i don't really even though [TS]

  you can put arbitrary files in there your iCloud Drive now i still use [TS]

  dropbox for that but just in terms of having the sink work just invisibly [TS]

  instant nearly instantaneously it's up there i think they get a bad rap for for [TS]

  problems that they had in the past and people either every aren't giving it a [TS]

  fair look in with open eyes now or it there just to set your mindset that [TS]

  Apple's you know that anything related iCloud sucks but what they charge for it [TS]

  i think is creates almost crazy compared to what other people charged for storage [TS]

  I think the story later XO opened at the functionality seems to be really pretty [TS]

  solid at this point I just [TS]

  believe that they could charge a lot less than they should and if anything [TS]

  they should be because you know it's really only meant to be used on [TS]

  expensive Apple devices that have high profit margins it seems to me like [TS]

  iCloud Drive storage per gigabyte ought to be less than the competition not more [TS]

  than the competition because like Dropbox just to name one example all the [TS]

  money they're making is for people paying for dropbox storage they don't [TS]

  sell eight-hundred-dollar cell phones that with forty percent profit margins [TS]

  that they can get other revenue from all they have is the storage where is this [TS]

  is just one little thing so there's an example where I don't know I don't know [TS]

  how do anything they can make money [TS]

  hi guys i don't disagree with you but I mean you know they [TS]

  hi guys i don't disagree with you but I mean you know they [TS]

  run the scenarios and they make I'm writing you say yeah and that example [TS]

  can make money and they've landed i projected scenarios and right and most [TS]

  and i often run it you know for some reason multan particular and I when he's [TS]

  on the show always run into this where we end up talking ourselves into [TS]

  spending Tim Cook's money you know when I route totally realize how she's in [TS]

  easy and awesome thing to do because it's fun right but i totally realized [TS]

  that the way you become the world's most profitable company is that you you know [TS]

  cut your losses and you know you sweat the details make money you don't need [TS]

  this money away here in there and that all sorts of ideas that we have involve [TS]

  Apple missing a little extra money away here and there and then you know it's a [TS]

  little way here in there and then all of a sudden you not the world's most [TS]

  profitable company [TS]

  well because ultimately so the argument is that they should make iCloud storage [TS]

  cheaper despite the fact that we don't know how many like what the percentages [TS]

  of iOS device owners or Apple device honors heard that subscribe to it they [TS]

  should make it cheaper in order to make them happier [TS]

  yeah well but but we've already got a cust sat number of like 98 right [TS]

  like maybe when that drops to like 89 maybe that's when you like i'm good i [TS]

  iose stuff and I almost think that Apple should know better than to trust the [TS]

  customer set because people might do to and nada actually think they do people [TS]

  maybe don't have high enough expectations yet they don't expect to [TS]

  have infinite storage online and so therefore they don't judge apple by that [TS]

  and therefore the USA I'm completely satisfied with my iphone even though [TS]

  they only have five gigabytes of storage in their iCloud account [TS]

  whereas I think Apple knows better than that and it even cut it is considered by [TS]

  hour ago story about being appalled when the guys just threw a handful of card [TS]

  catalogs some paneer like data lost a loss I I just breaks my heart knowing [TS]

  that there are people who don't can't put their entire photo library in their [TS]

  iCloud account because there are they only take the free iCloud storage like I [TS]

  really think that it i don't want to quite say there's a moral obligation but [TS]

  I'm [TS]

  I'm spectrum it is on some spectrum being in favor of avoiding data loss at [TS]

  all costs is a moral issue and and I really wish that more and more people [TS]

  would be able to see you know reasonably serve there and save their entire photo [TS]

  and video library to their iCloud account because otherwise if they lose [TS]

  or break their phone they might lose lose photos and videos perfectly i don't [TS]

  disagree with you about that I don't know what that costs I don't know but I [TS]

  mean it that there's always local backup so you know everyone you can I know I [TS]

  know but not not to get all capitalist on it because i'm canadian so we should [TS]

  probably just nationalize every company and but but there doesn't the fact [TS]

  they can make money on it and you know like if people need this kind of [TS]

  protection [TS]

  it's effectively insurance right yeah [TS]

  can a floppy any in the insurance via my business I i think the best thing that [TS]

  Ben wrote in that piece was that the draper quote was named Draper or my [TS]

  thing a man the guy that the management guy you said you you what what you [TS]

  measure it is what get ya may that's the key and on-air and you might as well [TS]

  have said ahhh that's the one jeff would never say that he was hit the exact [TS]

  opposite sides but I'd I think that they would but Apple needs is better and more [TS]

  rigid measurements of their services they should and higher standards [TS]

  standards for them i see fewer and fewer times that I see any kind of out-of-sync [TS]

  I messages i use iMessage all the time i use it across a bunch of devices and in [TS]

  my use it is excellent and then getting better [TS]

  there's another one of those things where I just feel like don't judge it by [TS]

  how it used to be but it's it's really gotten good at one of my mac the [TS]

  iMessage our eyes aren't going off on my other devices because it sees that I'm [TS]

  active on my mac and text that I've sent from my phone all day if there are one I [TS]

  message when i get to my mac there there waiting for me if I want to get back to [TS]

  it [TS]

  um but it's still not perfect i just had an interaction with someone the other [TS]

  day and I i don't know why but all my texts to this guy only go to my phone or [TS]

  from him they only go to my phone at least and they don't go to my my mac and [TS]

  i don't know why they're blue and it seems like both devices are set up with [TS]

  the same phone number in the same Apple ID and whether he's sending it to my [TS]

  phone number or my apple ID email address i don't know but everybody [TS]

  else's rsync between so just you know it 99 instead of 99.9 percent of messages [TS]

  sinking properly between devices you know maybe making 99.99 you know but [TS]

  measure it in [TS]

  there's there ought to be a good eye and I do always opt into the send Apple [TS]

  diagnostic stuff so they there hopefully they're measuring and they can they see [TS]

  that there's a glitch you know but I that to me is the bottom line not that [TS]

  it should be about dollars and cents and profit and loss but that they should [TS]

  pick better metrics and improve these services to those levels [TS]

  what do you perceive as the services that Apple has that that that need the [TS]

  most work here and icloud think it's actually got better do you think it's [TS]

  good enough as somebody who ships mac software did did you know safe to the [TS]

  cloud and this is your appt napkin [TS]

  yes napkin and we had some early reports where they were like the files would [TS]

  clobber themselves when they were synced with it that was bad but things have [TS]

  worked out better and notes is actually really great app and i'm already say [TS]

  that because i know you know i don't disagree at all I mean is you know well [TS]

  you know [TS]

  and while the new version your show that yeah I didn't new version of the notes [TS]

  version of notes that is that debuted last fall with iOS 9 and and the new [TS]

  version of macro elcapitan because it the the old version and notes only sink [TS]

  through I map and it was a terrible hack and acted like a terrible hack and was [TS]

  unreliable and the new one uses cloudkit I think right and yea 99% sure that it's [TS]

  yet offering cloudkit which is not files in the file system like iCloud Drive it [TS]

  is my culture with the word is but a synchronous abstracted object permanence [TS]

  I guess [TS]

  yes that's a good to sit well the bunch of words is gobbledygook really [TS]

  motivated but it's an API that developers seem to like and it seems to [TS]

  work the way it's supposed to which is you know [TS]

  exactly what a service should be a nice change of pace right yeah that it's you [TS]

  know it is it's a good API or good enough API and it's reliable so and it [TS]

  works at it in that within the timeframe that you would hope that it would work [TS]

  where the note that you just checked out and paste it on your Mac you pick up [TS]

  your phone and go and it's it's there on your phone so it's gonna it's a good [TS]

  example itunes an apple music are there a mess like I mean I don't even [TS]

  understand anymore but you had already on the show recently and he was like [TS]

  well when you go to music have all you same music and it's like that's not the [TS]

  problem right and if i play an album that I own to Apple music i can click on [TS]

  the album art and click on a song on it and it'll start playing and then if i [TS]

  try to navigate to find like to play what's next and i click on an album that [TS]

  happens to being included through my Apple music subscription the song . [TS]

  that's why can't I can't go and add it to up next [TS]

  I don't whatever reason i don't know how many accounts i agree that there are [TS]

  problems there and i still i find Apple music to be confusing Apple music I [TS]

  don't understand i'm a very technical person it it triggers the that maybe I'm [TS]

  a dummy thing that I think makes me a good designer and a good critic of [TS]

  design because i have no I don't want me dummy right but I'm other people so [TS]

  technical [TS]

  I'm unable to understand complex overly complex interfaces and that therefore [TS]

  act right i think it makes me and I think i'm good at explaining why you [TS]

  know and it's it just is over the over the line of I just just did this doesn't [TS]

  seem to explain itself i can i can start to understand the rules but there are [TS]

  betray and based on technical limitations you know that then like I [TS]

  don't know that counsel to do that and services though I feel that it's more of [TS]

  a sign of being tolerant of insufficient user enter user interfaces okay well [TS]

  decline expression of that service is a suboptimal by and large i'm actually not [TS]

  that down on Apple services per se but i also don't think I rely on them as much [TS]

  as many other people do like a lot of people do collaborative document sharing [TS]

  / google or calendar sharing and I don't have to do that room I don't know if I'm [TS]

  exposed so much to the the negative sighs it maybe where Apple is not quite [TS]

  as at the forefront [TS]

  well and the other thing too that plays into this and i often think about and I [TS]

  don't know how much of it is a problem or not is that Apple is in a position [TS]

  where they benefit from the services of others you know so if there's [TS]

  collaborative aspects to google docs that you know apples pages or whatever [TS]

  else can provide the fact is that you can get the full benefit of that while [TS]

  using an Apple product because google docs as you know iOS apps and and web [TS]

  web version that runs and you know anywhere and i think that's true for a [TS]

  lot of services you know it's it you know that they've got the problem for [TS]

  Apple was back in the early to cycle back to two hours going to show the [TS]

  problem was back in the old days when Apple was so much smaller that this [TS]

  stuff all the stuff didn't work on apple stuff i mean most famously that family [TS]

  best example I can think of was that at first Napster was a windows only thing [TS]

  right and there's this amazing thing that was a sensation that let the entire [TS]

  world on fire and mac users were left out at first and then it was like we had [TS]

  that third-party clients that just use the napster API [TS]

  which I were actually in some ways better because they were designed by Mac [TS]

  developers and had better interface but then as napster itself the first class [TS]

  that you know the first party napster would change things [TS]

  the mac changes it you had to wait for the third party developers making these [TS]

  sort of yeah I story of the mac in the nice right and we don't apple doesn't [TS]

  have that problem anymore nobody nobody does matter or down [TS]

  no or iOS seconds maybe max second but not OS so I think it's a little [TS]

  different you know and I don't think that they have to do all the services [TS]

  themselves and in fact i think that that kind of thinking it it sort of is what [TS]

  led to Microsoft's downfall where to me where Microsoft really fell off as the [TS]

  dominant the company that really drove the industry and every every important [TS]

  sense was that the institutionally they wanted to do everything and anybody who [TS]

  had any kind of success [TS]

  microsoft would say well they're making money on that let's go do something [TS]

  right beats them right so you know they they competed with oracle they competed [TS]

  with Sun they compete I mean you name it they competed with them and they even [TS]

  you know they want a lot of those fights right they did but it sometimes dirty [TS]

  sometimes parents but i think it may I think it let them take the eye off their [TS]

  eye off the ball that they didn't have any you know I think trying to do it all [TS]

  is is inevitably going to lead to failure [TS]

  so do you think that's where Apple's come on [TS]

  no I don't think so but i think though that the mindset that they have to be [TS]

  good [TS]

  they have to be as good as Google at all services is maybe the wrong way to look [TS]

  at it because maybe they don't they just have to remain a appealing platform for [TS]

  Google to make sure it remains a first class citizen and I don't see any signs [TS]

  that that's changed [TS]

  so what do you think about this Intel playoff kind of thing which seems like a [TS]

  word segue well let it remain this the company did let me take a break before [TS]

  we talk that's a great way a great final topic let me take a third third brake [TS]

  here and think our [TS]

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  company fracture fracture is a company that prints photos directly onto glass [TS]

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  it looks different and it in a way that is better it looks it it's just uncanny [TS]

  what it looks like it is super super nice you get a piece of glass your photo [TS]

  is printed directly on it they have all the sizes you could possibly imagine [TS]

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  mount on the wall it's really kind of amazing i know Mexican megapixels are so [TS]

  overrated as a camera thing a way to rank camera quality but the fact is that [TS]

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  there's a certain threshold for printing things big and you need enough [TS]

  megapixels and it's amazing to me that the iphone is well past you could take [TS]

  an iphone picture and if it's in focus and sharp you can print it up to really [TS]

  big size and get really really amazing out output out of that and I say that [TS]

  knowing that for anybody's listening me most of your photos are probably taken [TS]

  with your iphone there's very few people who take a majority there are photos on [TS]

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  did small company and i know right before the holidays going to get backed [TS]

  up but if you listen in to this in the you know at the end of april hurry up [TS]

  and get it in its a great gift and I just can't say how happy I am with him I [TS]

  wouldn't get my photos printed to mount or to put on a desk any other way [TS]

  because it's so much it's both more convenient and higher quality and i [TS]

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  code talk show 10 talk show 10 10 that's just talk show spell down and then 10 [TS]

  and just go to fracture to check out their services online fracture [TS] my thanks to them so intel intel announced that where they went off like [TS]

  ten percent of the workforce 12 12,000 people 12,000 and um I think it's [TS]

  unsurprising I think you know and it's always funny i add the number surprises [TS]

  me i had to the lair [TS]

  I mean so you would probably have to the TV show you hip to the the industry back [TS]

  when IBM had its first layoffs late nineties em at what you know why [TS]

  actually is before that think before Apple got involved with them but Abby it [TS]

  was a powerhouse and they they will look at all school company like we don't do [TS]

  layoffs right you work at IBM and you retire [TS]

  it's a point of pride look your company man you want to watch you would like we [TS]

  we set you up and then they they had sometimes and they they did some laughed [TS]

  and this Intel thing kinda reminds me that a little bit yeah [TS]

  and especially because they were especially going back to the nineties [TS]

  you just cannot emphasize how you know I know that use the term wintel but that [TS]

  was wintel was the windows as the software and Intel is the cpu the wind [TS]

  tell duopoly was just so dominant in the industry in terms of both what actual [TS]

  people were actually using which was intel-based computers with microsoft [TS]

  software running it and and the where the money was going [TS]

  it was going to Microsoft was going to intel i mean you could have reaped all [TS]

  of the rewards of [TS]

  the nineties stock market just by putting money into Intel and Microsoft [TS]

  oh yeah and it just seemed that sort of success over you know a decade it after [TS]

  a while it's human nature to just see it as inevitable you know that it's that [TS]

  they're always going to Intel is always going to be Intel and it just it you [TS]

  know i don't know going back in time and telling somebody in 1997 that Intel's [TS]

  going to have massive layoffs and $MONTH 2016 10 2016 would sound like a long [TS]

  time off but you would think wow some something weird happened in between now [TS]

  and then because that doesn't seem possible [TS]

  well I'm something where didn't happen i think a couple of things did I think [TS]

  that there's I think again multi variable and that all of the variables [TS]

  all of them worked against Intel it's like it's like a perfect yeah I can't [TS]

  think of really want just yeah he never liked all the ways that the industry has [TS]

  changed since since their heyday have all been against their their favor [TS]

  I mean let's just recount them i mean obviously one of them is the shift to [TS]

  the fact that pc sales have plateaued and and Irina decline because people are [TS]

  either using your old pc longer and it the end they're older pc is good enough [TS]

  performance-wise that that we've reached the United maybe that's even a separate [TS]

  separate factor in that is saturation point is right that that that we've read [TS]

  rich reached a point where client-side computing is fast enough for most people [TS]

  most of the time so the old there's no need to replace your older pc if it's [TS]

  still running based on performance reasons obviously and famously people [TS]

  are doing a lot more their personal computing on quote unquote mobile [TS]

  devices which roughly defined means phones and tablets and phones and [TS]

  tablets most of them overwhelming majority of them are using arm-based [TS]

  chips which Intel doesn't make an which funny enough faced this soul they had [TS]

  like an army had that x.x kayla was right and that they're sold just before [TS]

  the cell phone and now here's the thing that I wonder though even keeping that I [TS]

  don't know that that would have saved them because one of the other factors is [TS]

  that arms [TS]

  are our Intel's business is based on the fact on the the the idea that a [TS]

  significant portion of the cost of a pc is the cpu that that's you know whatever [TS]

  however much the pc cause a big chunk of it is a the the cpu and microsoft [TS]

  business used to be based on and to some degree still is but they've successfully [TS]

  moved away from you know moved away from this in a way that I don't think intel [TS]

  has that that in the old days a pretty much the entire cost of the pc was an [TS]

  intel chip a license for windows and then a whole bunch of cheap components [TS]

  like hard drives and ram and stuff like that that was all commodity-based but I [TS]

  don't think that's everything else was a top software is software they can pivot [TS]

  better than it until can being hardware and I don't like like I think that you [TS]

  can move on with being the OS provider and onto something else [TS]

  faster than intel can move often being the chief advisor right wanted something [TS]

  else [TS]

  well and being a cheap provider where the cpu is not a mere commodity is a [TS]

  premier component I mean and just look at most so the legs cut out they invent [TS]

  them and now what we mac users are always saying I always at least I always [TS]

  think of Intel stickers the Intel Inside stickers in the context of that poor sap [TS]

  at the apple press conference who asked Steve Jobs wide man yeah why them the [TS]

  first you know it will after having six kind of in 2006-2007 mower I had to be [TS]

  2070 because they had to be after the ones came out 2006 was the year that [TS]

  switch was announced right and then 2007 would be when it came out so that the [TS]

  poor guide that press conference in $MONTH 2007 who asked why apple's [TS]

  intel-based mac books don't have an intelligent the same as the iPhone yeah [TS]

  that's embarrassing [TS]

  yeah it'sit's your you're worried about the wrong thing did but just think about [TS]

  just think about the fact that it's the idea that the intel chip is so important [TS]

  to the pc whether it's from HP or dell or compact back in the day or name that [TS]

  you tape sony you know that they all put any a visible intel inside sticker on [TS]

  the outside of the pc or the laptop and I know that they were marketing you know [TS]

  deals and everybody took in there was money that it was involved but the [TS]

  notion of putting a cpu maker sticker mac users laughs example just wouldn't [TS]

  do it but no phone as a Qualcomm inside sticker on it it's just the cpu is [TS]

  reduced important it's just another one of the components now it's obviously an [TS]

  important component and you can obviously spend you know higher end [TS]

  phones have more cutting-edge cpus but it's just a different world the idea of [TS]

  the cpu being so supremely course so extremely Supreme to the what's in the [TS]

  device it is no longer the case you know and I they you know they can't expect to [TS]

  make hundreds of dollars from cpu and a phone right yet [TS]

  well no I don't the intelligent honest you don't have they can expect me I'm [TS]

  talking about my here and somebody will have an idea [TS]

  first I'm talking out of my ass but I i would guess that Intel makes more money [TS]

  from a three-hundred-dollar pc that gets old today with an intel cpu then then [TS]

  they would make from Sen arm CPU in an eight-hundred-dollar iphone if they were [TS]

  to make the cpu for the iphone i don't think when RCP if you sure because they [TS]

  be licensing the arm IP right and part of its really used to perfectly on but [TS]

  they sold it and helps [TS]

  I don't know what girlfriend shall I don't and they seem like they should go [TS]

  onto the server side and I don't know enough about how those architectures [TS]

  work these days but it seems to me that eventually a bunch of like really low [TS]

  powered arm chips with ssds attached could perform a lot of the web traffic [TS]

  that it is you know mostly what needs to be served up today [TS]

  yeah I don't know what the way I don't know what the way forward for them as [TS]

  either but I did get enough you need a super powerful CPU and the backend [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  like maybe we've tapped out and in terms of what a single cpu needs to do and now [TS]

  we're looking at like a hive mind of CBS i just see that I think that the way [TS]

  forward for them is probably not in making things for consumers you know and [TS]

  whether server or the whatever other professional market but that's the only [TS]

  way for a company like Intel to make high-priced components i think at the [TS]

  consumer level prevented an era where you know those chips are all they're all [TS]

  commodities now [TS]

  yeah you know what I i I've been longtime fan of IBM and they got out [TS]

  when the gettin was good they sold up that pc industry to lenovo they gave up [TS]

  os/2 probably 10 years too late but the right p.m. so they were supporting their [TS]

  customers a long time I I'm gonna I'm gonna cut you off before you circling in [TS]

  those two I don't want to talk about os/2 I'm just saying it as a company [TS]

  they manage their business for like a hundred and something here that and [TS]

  there's no one is good to let go and have their big to me [TS]

  my promises I think that them them selling the thinkpad business when they [TS]

  did was is it in hindsight a great example of skating to where the puck is [TS]

  going anywhere exactly right they sold it not not before it was too late they [TS]

  sold it while it could still command a premium price [TS]

  yeah but they totally saw that was going away that they went to his services [TS]

  business [TS]

  yeah and i had to cut a bunch of jobs which is unfortunate but I mean am I [TS]

  mean David kicking it for like a hundred and some-odd years now so come here and [TS]

  look how do you argue with that [TS]

  yeah well it's it's about it from my list of topics anything else you want to [TS]

  talk about me we're going on for a while and had definitely WTH really couldn't [TS]

  really see is very expensive that that is that's the last thing I wanted to [TS]

  talk about so Apple finally and and i mean a non sarcastic i really do think [TS]

  that they should be embarrassed that they announced WTC dates only eight [TS]

  weeks before it actually happens i think it's i think apples gotta put on your [TS]

  big boy pants and and commit to it at least i would say four months in advance [TS]

  but at least 12 i think at least 12 but anyway they at least have like a year in [TS]

  advance [TS]

  no 12 weeks i don't know probably 12 weeks but you know I for I'd skip [TS]

  between months and weeks there so I'm so they announced WWDC dates it's exactly [TS]

  when everybody thought it was better to 13 to 17 but a lot of people have noted [TS]

  that the including me because I'm not buying it i didn't enter the lottery i [TS]

  get meaning and it's always easy for me to say because every year for just at [TS]

  least since 2007 I've got a press pass for the keynotes and in recent years [TS]

  they've let the some of the people with press passes go to conference sessions [TS]

  and stuff like that but so I didn't even enter the lottery because i don't want [TS]

  to take the lottery spot from somebody who really really wants to go and [TS]

  doesn't have the privilege i do of getting a press pass [TS]

  yeah it's the same with me i don't know not that they know I could guarantee [TS]

  pass beg to now i will be then I can talk to a lot of these people it's [TS]

  fine like i don't need a pass at love to be there but man types eaten [TS]

  yeah it is it and and it's funny I knew that the prices for hotels in downtown [TS]

  San Francisco I've gotten more expensive and my thought was is because someone [TS]

  who goes to New York couple times a year i know that Manhattan famously and and [TS]

  to me rightfully so is you know that the greatest city in the world says in [TS]

  America [TS]

  yeah but arguably the greatest city in the world you know it makes total sense [TS]

  to me that Manhattan is the most expensive hotel city that I am familiar [TS]

  with and off the top of my head it seems like not just for WWDC but the last few [TS]

  times I've gone out you know for the last year so every time I go out for an [TS]

  apple event stay in san francisco it seems to me that like it's no longer a [TS]

  case of bad luck like the one year the ipad event in the fall was coincident [TS]

  with the thing was the e3 gaming conference it was somewhat the big [TS]

  gaming conference in san francisco i don't--that's III year what the name of [TS]

  GTA GTA the game developers conference gcng is the Association because you just [TS]

  a sensationally I mean just I've tens of thousands of attendees and it was like [TS]

  holy cow did XP no note and it was held at moscone so it's all the you know [TS]

  downtown hotels super sent but it's been a case for the last few years where it [TS]

  doesn't matter whether it's june or $MONTH march or September it's expensive [TS]

  and then somebody pointed out to me on twitter that its attack Bloomberg [TS]

  actually did a report in San Francisco is now the most expensive hotel city in [TS]

  the world and which exactly it's not just me wanting to get it a nice room at [TS]

  a cheap rate it's actually like the truth it's more expensive than whatever [TS]

  the city isn't Switzerland more expensive than New York crazy and it [TS]

  really puts a damper in the ability for us as a community to just say hey even [TS]

  if you don't get a conference ticket or even a developer you should come out to [TS]

  San Francisco that week anyway because all of us will be there together and [TS]

  people can show up you know people get tickets to my live talk show people can [TS]

  you know talk in hotel lobbies and you make friends and make contacts and and [TS]

  schedule all sorts of other events but the the shirt cost of it now is really [TS]

  it's it's absolutely locking people out [TS]

  I don't know what happened can do about that it's not apples fault it really ya [TS]

  know now it's and there's been some suggestion that they could do it in [TS]

  Vegas and I don't think that'll fly it doesn't want and you know me I love [TS]

  Vegas [TS]

  yeah and I love Apple ya think I don't think it was work though I know it's in [TS]

  and it's as a function of having tons of really high quality hotel rooms at [TS]

  reasonable rates Vegas definitely has that I mean you get a for [TS]

  four-and-a-half storeroom at vegas almost all the time for under two [TS]

  hundred dollars a night in terms of having conference space there's a couple [TS]

  of options i think they have I've never WBC is a little different than like a [TS]

  convention but you know there's a lot of places there and I know that the aria [TS]

  hotel is building a new one but I think it's for other reasons i think it's i [TS]

  think it's off brand for apple and I don't think it works for them in terms [TS]

  they have to move a lot of people and honestly love people just come up to it [TS]

  a lot Apple people come up because it's there [TS]

  yeah it is shuttle a lot of Apple people who are involved at WWDC and some degree [TS]

  or another a jit still are in cupertino during the week either some of the days [TS]

  or every day maybe just in the morning and then you know get there one snake [TS]

  yeah yeah okay I'll come in my lap right 13 there's an awful lot of cars [TS]

  shuttling forth from the south south of Valley up to San Francisco with apple [TS]

  employees and back and forth during wwcc whereas if they held it whether it's [TS]

  Vegas or any other city that required air travel [TS]

  it's everybody has to go and everybody has to stay there all week and it a [TS]

  different thing it has cost it adds commitment it adds disruption and [TS]

  anytime you do air travel like that even if it's not change impacts serendipity [TS]

  yeah yeah maybe I'll just gonna show up yeah well and it adds a day before and [TS]

  after just not even talking teardown and [TS]

  and stuff like that it just means you've got to go the day before and you've [TS]

  gotta leave the day after as opposed to if you're just driving an hour down [TS]

  there you know it's it's a little different [TS]

  yeah it won't leave a yeah I don't get it [TS]

  yeah it's like if they could find another option in the valley [TS]

  maybe but you know it's it's like in the old days I never went to one in san jose [TS]

  and I think the first WWDC I i went to it was already in San Francisco at [TS]

  Moscone and went to a GC in san jose back in the old days but you and I have [TS]

  friends [TS]

  good yes you know I Chris you know your partner at with napkin at age 72 still [TS]

  who you know I think he was probably adobe back then right yeah appreciate so [TS]

  back when he was at Adobe admit that the the san jose you're a WWE sees Brent [TS]

  Simmons had been to a san jose or at WTC everybody agrees it in terms of you know [TS]

  the social aspects of it was terrible because San Jose like the light you know [TS]

  they turn out the lights at five o'clock in the afternoon [TS]

  yeah and so you just lose all sorts of social serendipity that and I don't [TS]

  think it's big enough anymore i really don't know I know you can do it anywhere [TS]

  but i'll tell you think it might be open the other must grenade portions but [TS]

  quite frankly though in the early years of daring fireball in the first at least [TS]

  five years that I went to WWDC I I wouldn't have been able to afford it if [TS]

  the hotel's works too expensive that as they are now no now I mean it i find it [TS]

  have seen now and it hurts to I i find that air trauma has gotten more [TS]

  expensive too [TS]

  I don't know what the reason for that is but it may it may be specific to the [TS]

  philly the SFO route and that the way that the airline options out of [TS]

  Philadelphia have changed since then [TS]

  maybe but I mean it's becoming like a five grand adventure is to one week [TS]

  costs about five grand gets now at least it's it's it's really it's almost [TS]

  sickening [TS]

  yeah it's it's not to be growing like right crash about it but I mean that's [TS]

  serious money and [TS]

  for me that's like really like how do you spend that kind of money without [TS]

  really thinking about is this with while to attend he you can go to like a really [TS]

  nice a really nice vacation resort somewhere for a lot more money than to [TS]

  go there and have you know the some bum urinating on the sidewalk in front of [TS]

  you you know [TS]

  yes I love San Francisco but let's face it it's not not a resort destination it [TS]

  really crazy how expensive it is and I don't know what to do i add that Apple [TS]

  actually is a little concerned about that but on the other hand itself you [TS]

  know it sells out so fast that they have to have a lottery the last time they [TS]

  didn't have a lottery it literally literally sold out in under a minute [TS]

  every single ticket for sale sold out in under a minute [TS]

  I don't the last 1i got to you texted me at like 830 in the morning and I was [TS]

  like I just pressed okay until I managed to buy it to get that was a couple years [TS]

  ago yeah it was three years ago i think i think is dead [TS]

  this might be the second year of a lottery i think but so it's not like [TS]

  they're not they're gonna have trouble filling out the [TS]

  no no that's consumed and I think for the student scholarships i know that [TS]

  they announce this year that they're going to institute they're going to have [TS]

  travel plans are they gonna help with travel for some of the student [TS]

  scholarships to which I can also create i can only assume includes hotel [TS]

  I mean whether it's free or whether it's just discount or just a relatively [TS]

  little you know for the student disc you know students a relatively low [TS]

  reasonable price that includes the hotel accommodations which is driven they can [TS]

  afford even half of what we've been saying yeah what park was like four [TS]

  bucks a night I yet at least [TS]

  yeah but when I looked the other day online the mark 55 which is to me the [TS]

  baseline hotel in the neighborhood is 409 dollars a night which isn't it's [TS]

  just really is very 55 and I don't like those guys I do but I mean committed one [TS]

  but tonight it's a fine hotel but it [TS]

  is I feel like somebody's getting bribed to have it redone the four-star list [TS]

  instead of three-and-a-half store list right and it's you know it was always [TS]

  like well it's not the best but a hundred eighty-nine dollars a night I'd [TS]

  rather save I'd rather save the money and I mean and you can get a better [TS]

  hotel for 250 dollars a night back then but you think like we'll wait I'm coming [TS]

  out for six nights that's 15 and fee it's like almost 400 bucks it's like a [TS]

  foreigner box I'll state the part 55 and they feel but now that they've got the [TS]

  prices over three hundred dollars four hundred dollars it's like you've got to [TS]

  be kidding me four hundred dollars a night to stay in this place that looks [TS]

  like it came out of that did you remember the Intercontinental just [TS]

  opened it was like 10 bucks a night kind of thank the parc 55 reminded but it [TS]

  seems to me like it was it's like the nicest hotel in east berlin during the [TS]

  Cold War is the and the grotesque caricatures yeah the brutalist [TS]

  architecture and like the way that they think that this is this is what we think [TS]

  a nice hotel is like it was just crazy that's absolutely crazy and there's no [TS]

  there's no more seats they used to be the other thing too is we've got you [TS]

  know amongst our pals in their little clique of friends we have somebody would [TS]

  figure out some way every year they they go to somebody would go through hotwire [TS]

  or yeah [TS]

  priceline or something like that and now hey if you go through hotwire and search [TS]

  for a hotel within one mile of this location there's there's a four-star [TS]

  option and it's only a hundred and seventy nine dollars a night and I jibe [TS]

  booked it and it's you know the such-and-such hotel which is you know [TS]

  right it's a great hotel and then everybody would quick do it and we get [TS]

  it you know everybody feeling there's no more like there's no secret anymore to [TS]

  getting a hotel in San Francisco and you know what that never worked for me [TS]

  because I'm Canadian and like whatever service they used was probably faucets [TS]

  and wear whatever service it was fake yeah us people who me yeah like okay get [TS]

  something for practice [TS]

  that's crazy i don't know what Apple can do or anybody can do know you can't fix [TS]

  that I can't help but think I i could be wrong I mean everybody you know it's [TS]

  it's only a bubble of it pops but I can't help but think that some of the [TS]

  San Francisco go [TS]

  economy is a bit of a bubble in that it will come back down to earth because i [TS]

  don't think it's the natural state of affairs at San Francisco is it is is [TS]

  more desirable than Manhattan you know and I don't like San Francisco lot as [TS]

  city but at now I gave you [TS]

  I feel like one way that you have to lie to the economy pops and prices go back [TS]

  down or they build enough new hotels that that the you know the the supply [TS]

  and demand equation changes but somebody was saying in twitter that they're not [TS]

  there aren't really any plans for new hotels that there's a couple but nothing [TS]

  no plans for hotels that would be sufficient to really change the overall [TS]

  supply and demand ratio so we're stuck compel who tells him what I mean [TS]

  try living there right now oh don't touch my friends yeah it's great huh [TS]

  yeah nobody likes and I some of the suggestions people had on Twitter and [TS]

  they're reasonable and it's probably what maybe this is what I would do if I [TS]

  were if I you know couldn't afford it now if it was 10 years ago in the early [TS]

  days daring fireball is people are saying you can you could stay out by the [TS]

  airport for a lot less and take like an uberx into the city every day and take [TS]

  it back at night which sounds crazy because it's the Hooper's from SFO to [TS]

  downtown is is it's not cheap but waiting that's about 30 bucks a pop [TS]

  right and I'm and my plans to just stay down in pacifica yeah and that would be [TS]

  about 20 bucks anyway my hand and a lot to explain to my girlfriend and i'm [TS]

  sorry i'm showing up at five o'clock in the morning right there [TS]

  I'm just gonna sleep in the garage Michael is especially just a sickening [TS]

  amount of money on one of the regular hotels i've got one already booked and [TS]

  the other thing to the other last thing is that booking in advance was not any [TS]

  sort of benefit either because i had a guess as to when the the WTC would be it [TS]

  was right and I booked a hotel room months ago I think it was like january a [TS]

  terrible rate had absolutely terrible rate but i know i like the hotel [TS]

  and I I was worried that if it did it would might get so busy that it would be [TS]

  hard to get a room at any rate if I waited until after that it was announced [TS]

  and so I booked it not because hey I'm going to lock in a great rate i booked [TS]

  it because I thought well atleast is where i know i have a hotel at least a [TS]

  reasonable by today's standards San Francisco rate and then but it's [TS]

  refundable and i'll just keep searching in hoping that maybe in the last week or [TS]

  two prices you know there might be some deals i can refine get a refund up until [TS]

  like Friday before WBC starts so when you check-in and they ask any case you [TS]

  want you going to say to write i always get to outgas olive School of Fine [TS]

  perfect of my friend guy robbing from themselves [TS]

  yes to two queens sequence guy English thank you for doing the show has been [TS]

  great talk [TS]

  John Ellis fine people can get all the guy in less than one on twitter at gte [TS]

  ya jee teen18 see your great app napkin at aged into stone and mac after yeah [TS]

  the mac yeah yeah I get a podcast don't count the e-book that you can check it [TS]

  when we interview people about oddly enough at computer history right with [TS]

  fellow longtime friend of the talk show Rene Rene Ritchie yeah I guess nice [TS]

  dummy also is I don't know how that is the nicest guy noir he's he's yeah [TS]

  to me it didn't talk about all this stuff just turns you cynical it just how [TS]

  do you not get cynical and that son-of-a-bitch the grenadines does not [TS]

  intersect the Canadians Canadian need is the Chianti and doesn't have a cynical [TS]

  boners [TS]

  that's one of the nicest people I've ever met all right thank you guys thank [TS]

  you jack have a good weekend [TS]

  you too [TS]