The Talk Show

159: ‘Phil Z’, With Special Guest Marco Arment


  here's what i got for us to talk about WWDC the life the live talk show at WWDC [TS]

  mac OS r-iowa what's called micro s Mac os10 . 12 and lost track is 10 watch us [TS]

  three taking the headphone jack off the iphone covering your laptop cameras with [TS]

  tape podcast adds the future podcasting and mid-roll buying stitcher and then we [TS]

  can we can talk about cars and talk about the shitty shifter design that [TS]

  that led 20 yeah guy from Star Trek's that so so show ya [TS]

  so let's get started w GC we have to talk about the actual announcements but [TS]

  not everyone's heard about those already [TS]

  I i want to talk about your show alright because you know you I I have something [TS]

  to say about it and you probably won't be saying all this so i will say it [TS]

  because you want [TS]

  so number one is you know first of all I greatly enjoyed it [TS]

  you began the show by posing the question of like you know you had Phil [TS]

  on last year how do you top that you know there's only so far you can go up [TS]

  the chain to top having fill on the show and you ended up having Phil and Craig [TS]

  on the show this year and I i put forth now this theory that that is the top [TS]

  that is the best you can do for that show in that week I agree with that i [TS]

  think that's actually probably true because and this is I know that it I [TS]

  think I successfully kept it secret [TS]

  I number one I don't know what the people were whispering out in the [TS]

  audience but i was guessing Tim but I had no idea the activity was the by far [TS]

  the most common guess that like and people were and people are bugging me [TS]

  like the date not bugging me i shouldn't say that everybody came up and said hi [TS]

  to meet WBC i always enjoy it and when him sometimes I see people on Twitter [TS]

  who say hey I saw you somewhere and I thought I won't bother you now just come [TS]

  say hi like to say hi to people it's great it's one of my favorite parts of [TS]

  WC le and it was really weird for me in the early years because it it does not [TS]

  come naturally to me but I've learned making during that period i've learned [TS]

  over the years how to how to to make those things go pretty well pretty much [TS]

  what i did was the one year the South by Southwest I was hanging out with the [TS]

  year marilyn is [TS]

  together south by and I just know that I met you that when people would come up [TS]

  to us if whether they know you know if they knew Merlin Merlin is amazing he's [TS]

  absolutely amazing when someone comes up and says hey you Merlin man you know [TS]

  he's obviously never met them their fan he's so good at it and I just suddenly [TS]

  went into like I'm just going to copy his moves and just do what he does and [TS]

  it's got a lot better so anyway people come into did say blah blah but then [TS]

  they say who's gonna be on your show and I would just say I started saying to [TS]

  them you don't really want me to tell you right you mean you want to be [TS]

  surprised again like you and you know I don't know what the listeners think but [TS]

  like you know so you and I are friends [TS]

  I didn't know either last year or this year like you don't even tell your [TS]

  friends like you don't as far as I know the only people you tell her like Amy [TS]

  and Paul who are working the event with you like you don't tell anybody I didn't [TS]

  tell Paul Amy did and Caleb sexton new as of like three or four in the [TS]

  afternoon of the day and I did tell Caleb that you know to prepare three [TS]

  laughs Mike so we knew there would be two to guess but no i did not tell [TS]

  anybody because that's how you keep a secret [TS]

  how do you keep a secret it's easy don't tell anybody I swear to god it is that [TS]

  it it it it sounds stupid but it's most people don't do that Amy tells me a [TS]

  great size great story i'm going to picture this in some way at but when she [TS]

  was in law school she had a criminal defense course that was taught by a [TS]

  former FBI agent and he told them he said you want to know how to get away [TS]

  with murder [TS]

  it's actually very easy don't leave any evidence [TS]

  don't don't leave any evidence behind [TS]

  don't tell anyone what you did and don't ever do it again and you'll never don't [TS]

  feel you'll get away with it and useful information for law students most [TS]

  murderers do not get away with it because most murders either leave [TS]

  something behind or they most commonly they tell somebody very very easy i [TS]

  didn't murder anybody but I did not tell anybody was going to be on the show and [TS]

  I agree with your assessment that that the duo of Phil and Craig is I think [TS]

  unbeatable [TS]

  tim was obvious Tim Cook would be a bigger [TS]

  that Jony ive would be a big get but i don't think that the combination of my [TS]

  interviewing skills combined with their personalities I don't think would be as [TS]

  enjoyable especially with in this setting to you know you like you you [TS]

  were there and you want to talk about what was just said in the keynote like [TS]

  we've seen interviews of Tim Tim doesn't really straight from the talking points [TS]

  he's very well prepared very well controlled and he says what he wants to [TS]

  say and nothing more [TS]

  and what you really want everybody see is endless and in the talk show goes [TS]

  like that the live talk show is still your show it's still the talk show and [TS]

  you know that the mood of it takes on what you set there so it really it's [TS]

  kind of like you know like you like you say that this is the directors [TS]

  commentary for daring fireball you know you know when you have these apple execs [TS]

  on your on your show which I love that like now two years and it just has [TS]

  become my god this is what you doing out like its last year was like holy crap [TS]

  this year it's like oh yeah again ok but what you when you have them on the show [TS]

  it kind of becomes the directors commentary for WTC because they it is [TS]

  like mood-wise it's like the closest that any of us will ever get to like [TS]

  sitting down and having a beer with apple executives and so we can insert [TS]

  and and I think you know filling Craig not only have very good personalities [TS]

  that mesh well with that but also like topic wise at WTC if there's any to [TS]

  apple execs you can pick to ask questions to that are going to be [TS]

  interesting and relevant to developers after having heard that keynote that day [TS]

  it's going to be those two because you have Phil who now runs the entire app [TS]

  store policy wise at least he runs a whole app store and then he he he's also [TS]

  kind of like I don't know what his role is you know [TS]

  unofficially but it seems like he is in many ways like a heavily involved or [TS]

  possibly the head of a lot of product decisions [TS]

  yeah I've always said and I mean get just maybe I should have asked [TS]

  I've always had this on my list nobody say you do here well i have had that and [TS]

  I've run out of time I've both years you know it's better that way but I have [TS]

  more stuff to talk to them about then then I have time to to ask them and I [TS]

  tend to favor [TS]

  hey let's fill this up with questions from the keynote because i think it's a [TS]

  it's more relevant to now then forever but I have ideas i go into it with a [TS]

  couple ideas for things to talk about just in case the keynote doesn't really [TS]

  have a lot of stuff around [TS]

  I've always said and from my perspective on the outside the best way to [TS]

  understand shoulders roll at Apple would be to take the word marketing out of his [TS]

  name and that it title and that he's senior vice president of product because [TS]

  the marketing is in and of itself it's part of the product it's not a separate [TS]

  thing it's not like the products are developed and then shoulders group [TS]

  figures out how to advertise them or what pictures to take to put on the box [TS]

  it's it's all of a piece you know they like that's the type of marketing that [TS]

  gives especially engineers who are analytical and they roll their eyes when [TS]

  they think about marketing bad marketing is when you start with a bad product and [TS]

  somebody has told you know here's here's a kind of crappy product or thing with a [TS]

  bunch of problems figure out a way to sell it [TS]

  well that's the market ourselves to do their job and that's you know but [TS]

  whereas if you have a good product you can just let the product speak for [TS]

  yourself and figure out how do we let the front products speak for itself and [TS]

  i think that's ideally what you know had at their best that's how Apple's [TS]

  marketing works and it seems to like he is intimately familiar with all of their [TS]

  products [TS]

  oh it clearly and and also and you know having Craig there to like it's amazing [TS]

  because you know if you think of like you know what is an executive and you [TS]

  think like what kind of person is what do they know what kind of involved they [TS]

  have and to have the kind of incredibly deep knowledge that these two executives [TS]

  have about what they apparently oversee with Hillary i went and what Craig does [TS]

  officially over see you know that Craig was throwing out deep technical [TS]

  implementation details and and I know from talking to people in the company [TS]

  that that's genuine like Craig is really a genuine like hardcore engineer and [TS]

  he's really really knows his stuff and he gets deeply involved in it and is it [TS]

  but at the same time as a really good you look good leader I mean I i don't [TS]

  think i've met anybody who has worked under Craig or anywhere near Craig and [TS]

  has a single bad thing to say about the experience working with them i mean ii [TS]

  like he seems incredibly good at his job and very well suited to that leadership [TS]

  role but also like you like Phil having this incredibly deep knowledge of the [TS]

  products in the decisions and [TS]

  you have that there that like this is why I think this is this is better than [TS]

  having Tim for your show because not only not only like I think you have [TS]

  eww a better personality mesh with these guys but also I think you know Tim it [TS]

  doesn't take that kind of deep knowledge of like little details of how these [TS]

  things are engineered or product decisions like and because i think Tim [TS]

  kind of knows he's not like a head of product the way steve was and so he has [TS]

  delegated that to some of the other recipes and you know different [TS]

  combinations and I honestly I think it's a little bit vague as to what the [TS]

  combination is right now that might be a bit for problem but overall you know [TS]

  it's you know tim is not really a product person and Phil very clearly is [TS]

  and it honestly I mean from just my point of view i am very happy you had [TS]

  those two people on and I i would say Phil and Craig are my favorite apple [TS]

  executives and I think the ones that most closely align with my priorities it [TS]

  seems [TS]

  yeah I think that's fair to say so I don't know what I screwed for next year [TS]

  yeah we'll just have one again or have nots that's that those your choices i [TS]

  think Eddy Eddy Cue when he was on this show with craig was good and I think he [TS]

  would be good but his personality wise a but his domain isn't a good fit [TS]

  especially for the WWDC so if I had something where I did like quarterly [TS]

  show or twice a year show and like maybe if i did a live show after the September [TS]

  you know iphone event or something like that [TS]

  Eddy Cue might be good then but I feel like WWDC in particular when the news is [TS]

  supposed to end in late most years recently really is mostly about software [TS]

  it's it's you know there's he get it would really make any sense just to have [TS]

  him on because it's not his his domain [TS]

  yeah although i would also say like a one of the greatest things we saw at the [TS]

  live talk show this year is that we on the outside got to see in a very very [TS]

  rare circumstance we got to see to apple s VP's interacting with each other and [TS]

  if you think about like what other chances do we ever have to see that in [TS]

  and before I understand like I again [TS]

  some people into the company like even most people who work in the company [TS]

  rarely see two mvps in the same room because usually you're presenting two at [TS]

  most one of them felt like it to see to executive clearly work together for a [TS]

  very long time and know each other really well and clearly respect each [TS]

  other very much who are also good and other ways like it just it really [TS]

  brought a lot of amazing humanity and just insight into just whose people [TS]

  actually are and that's like this is I'm going to eat you're not going to get in [TS]

  like a carefully scripted keynote or any kind of you know carefully planned event [TS]

  and this is why i love the show so much because like you get to do this knee and [TS]

  you get to like reveal this to the world and and you do it in a way that like [TS]

  because it's a podcast I i love podcast because like you know if you write [TS]

  something on a blog or a new site like that spreads all over the place really [TS]

  quickly if there's anything about its controversial or inflammatory or [TS]

  anything else believe me I know that better than a lot of people and so and [TS]

  that can often be you know prohibitive to encouraging people to continue [TS]

  writing with a podcast it seems like just because podcast doesn't just [TS]

  because I really spread like wildfire the way text spreads like you can like [TS]

  quote someone's post or reform a paraphrase someone's post inflammatory [TS]

  headline and it just spreads like wildfire right podcast that just doesn't [TS]

  happen like I thought last year when you had Phil on which you know let anybody [TS]

  forget that was remarkable at the time I thought that was gonna be like literally [TS]

  like world news I thought it was gonna be reported like on CNN that like this [TS]

  happened and like everything that was said would have been scrutinized andrey [TS]

  and reported on just just as much as like an apple press release would have [TS]

  and instead there was like One macrumors article by like it was it was almost [TS]

  nothing like almost nothing happened and then the same thing happened this year [TS]

  we're again it's like now you have two apple executives now you should have CNN [TS]

  and the New York Times reporting on it a double double coverage and like again [TS]

  like you had one microparticle like basically nothing else [TS]

  yeah i thought the same thing last year not necessarily that I was disappointed [TS]

  I was just I curious and I think you know one measure of it would be like [TS]

  tech meme and it's like I write blog posts that get more attention on [TS]

  technique yeah then this one the good thing is that like it you know i like my [TS]

  family with my experience like you know I've been writing a lot less in part [TS]

  because of this problem of just like you know like any slip-up and it spreads [TS]

  like wildfire right and podcasting that just doesn't happen but also liked [TS]

  because of that affect it the podcasting kind of end because the conversational [TS]

  nature of it just being more casual podcasting is kind of like a safe space [TS]

  and you like you can say you can you can go on a podcast you can talk off script [TS]

  and you know and answer questions that were that you didn't get an advantage of [TS]

  that one plan or whatever you can you can accept that that gig because it [TS]

  really isn't dangerous people give you the benefit of the doubt it doesn't [TS]

  really spread like wildfire if you like screw something up my name some kind of [TS]

  minor way it's a conversational context doesn't seem as official or as as like [TS]

  you know coated and stone and I feel like you know that's again something [TS]

  that Apple never gets in any kind of public way so the its end for the [TS]

  listeners or the attendees of the live show it's it's almost like being let [TS]

  into like an exclusive club like it you know it's like it's a club of obscurity [TS]

  makes it look like you know we get to be here and listen to this [TS]

  you know Two and get to know these people and get these great insight into [TS]

  things but like it's not a big problem for them and they don't get in trouble [TS]

  for things they say it's kind of amazing i was thinking about what you said [TS]

  before about how we don't get to see the apples executives interact with each [TS]

  other in a personal way right and one evidence of proof of that and I again I [TS]

  often bring up Scott Forstall and I I've met him and I liked him [TS]

  you know like backstage after a keynote and I think he did fantastic work for [TS]

  the company and so you know I bring them up not to dump on them because i really [TS]

  think the guy did a great job but if famously I mean it was [TS]

  did you know did not get along well with the rest of the leadership team I mean [TS]

  that the press release announcing his i forget what they called it but you know [TS]

  that he was no longer he would quit fired yeah well I that well as his [TS]

  promotion to what was it to a tim cook's assistant or whatever special whatever [TS]

  it was a special adviser on that it's that you know the title of the press [TS]

  release was like you know something about it and enabling collaboration or [TS]

  something like that you know it was very clear and my sense since that butt [TS]

  onstage you'd never know it like Schiller to forestall you know handing [TS]

  off in the keynote you know like and here to tell you all about it is a [TS]

  senior vice president scott forstall is exactly the same as his interaction with [TS]

  like federighi now because they're pros their total pros they're polished and [TS]

  you'd never have from that you know outside you'd never have any idea [TS]

  whether there's a difference whereas on stage with those two you could tell that [TS]

  they like each other you know [TS]

  yeah totally rad each other especially Phil rising federighi oh yeah um yeah I [TS]

  thought it went pretty well you know and you know me I'm not going to sit here [TS]

  and say how good my show was but yeah I will felt it was really good so we did [TS]

  we did I love uncomfortable this makes doesn't it [TS]

  let's talk about the problems with the show we had our audio problems we had [TS]

  this feedback at the beginning and anybody who's watching the video watch [TS]

  the video recorded one on Vimeo or listen to the podcast you won't hear it [TS]

  i don't know i don't think Caleb had to clean that up i don't think he had to [TS]

  remove it i think that the audio it take the mics didn't pick it up but what [TS]

  happened and it wasn't Caleb's fault it was during this weekend they definitely [TS]

  did a sound check [TS]

  but Caleb let the house sound guy at mezzanine who is knew it wasn't the same [TS]

  guy as last year talk him out of a I don't know what I don't even know what I [TS]

  didn't want to know what this what the details were but if the Caleb let the [TS]

  guy talked him out of something against Caleb's better judgment and then the fix [TS]

  five or ten minutes into the show is exactly what Caleb wanted to do at the [TS]

  outset I did it violates the number one rule of the sound equipment which is get [TS]

  it working and then don't touch anything [TS]

  yeah i'm not sure where that went wrong did get straightened out and it wasn't [TS]

  too bad it was just like but it was it was just if anybody watch the video and [TS]

  I [TS]

  I look a little bit like I'm looking around it was because of it that the [TS]

  feedback but you won't hear it when you watch on on the show the other thing I [TS]

  think that I wonder how it affects the immediate holy shit you know these two [TS]

  guys are on groomers show is that the show doesn't come out right away this [TS]

  year it didn't come until Friday so I feel like on my list for what can I fix [TS]

  for next year's figure out who do i have to pay what I have to do to get the [TS]

  video out hopefully like 24 hours [TS]

  well on the other hand though why like if the show this doesn't wake national [TS]

  news the main and they don't get in trouble for anything they say then that [TS]

  makes it easier to get them back [TS]

  the main reason to turn to to get the turnaround quicker is just to make [TS]

  people who want to watch it happier i don't think it would have I don't think [TS]

  it would really make a big difference in terms of publicity the main reason is [TS]

  that I know just from my tweets and the emails that people were like chomping at [TS]

  the bit to get it and I would be too if there were two of me and one one who [TS]

  does the show and other one who just listens to the show and really likes it [TS]

  i would have been too if I couldn't get to the live show you what you should do [TS]

  is you should hire the the Apple WC video team because they get that Valley [TS]

  thanks morning I know that it's amazing there Dave really up that it's really [TS]

  incredible how quickly they get out [TS]

  yeah the livestream broke this year last year and stayed up at this year broke I [TS]

  i would suggest maybe doing an audio-only live stream because it's Who [TS]

  I mean unless you go to let something like youtube live we could also be a [TS]

  probably an easier way to do it but audio is a lot easier to to scale up [TS]

  then we did that we did that two years ago when you and your ATP palace for the [TS]

  gifts and that's how I know that because I we're streaming off of my ipad in the [TS]

  back on verizon it was fucking absolutely true either thing i love [TS]

  about that I don't know if it helped you like because then you wouldn't be [TS]

  nervous [TS]

  it gave you something to do but it or if it just made you even more nervous [TS]

  because instead of thinking about the show you were fiddling with it but that [TS]

  the backstory on that was that literally like right up until we open the doors to [TS]

  let people in you were back there like and we have weren't planning it you're [TS]

  just like but why don't we like [TS]

  but I can do it and you just like took out your iPad and like we're plugging it [TS]

  into the board like no it was worse than that you said oh by the way we don't [TS]

  have a way to record this so I was providing the only recording of it and [TS]

  also the lifestream and that was a poorly plant poorly planned shell that's [TS]

  funny funny that we've gone from there to here in two years its did i do keep [TS]

  pretty good notes about what to improve for the next year I i'd say i'd say you [TS]

  you now have a pretty good you have the kinks worked out and I would say just [TS]

  like repeat this and maybe change the way you stream the video and that's [TS]

  about it [TS]

  no see my people have a good time [TS]

  yeah yeah it was good good good event and ya again I mean you won't say it but [TS]

  i will it was great and you definitely you know keep doing it if you can [TS]

  yeah i'll see what i can do hopefully I thought it went well how about I take a [TS]

  break right here and i thank our first sponsor and our first sponsor this week [TS]

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  that covers it anyway I had a good time I have not watched it I can't bring [TS]

  myself to watch it yet i watch last year's at some point but I didn't want [TS]

  to see it so maybe I should've watched it before we started talking about it [TS]

  here but I listen to it again [TS]

  Mac OS here's my thing about mac OS I can't believe that they changed the name [TS]

  to mac OS but kept the 10-point 12 version numbering where what is that 10 [TS]

  now why it's just 10 forever [TS]

  well you know I think it's a lot like like you like the dumb windows kernel [TS]

  version thing where like you know windows 2000 was like 85 . oh I think [TS]

  that XP was 5.1 and it's 85 for a while it's like like that just the numbers [TS]

  doesn't mean anything relative to the marketing name and and the marketing [TS]

  sequence so i think that you know it just doesn't really matter i'm kind of [TS]

  surprised though that they kept the California names and I'm kind of [TS]

  surprised and just call this mac OS 12like that's it seems like even though [TS]

  people would have made fun of the most people livin like I think that would [TS]

  have made a lot more sense to just say you know [TS]

  alright this is no mac OS 12 in the next year mac OS 13 or whatever but i guess [TS]

  those numbers don't scale very well nobody wants like mac OS 17 I don't know [TS]

  it is with it seem weird that they give I think they could have done both though [TS]

  they could call it Mac OS 12 Sierra [TS]

  yeah maybe that's a lot of I don't know why did not go by this mac OS get a code [TS]

  name in iOS doesn't I don't get that one you know maybe because of the of like [TS]

  the high numbering problem no one seems like the teens it kind of is like you [TS]

  know less cool sounding maybe they're going to transition iOS onto a code name [TS]

  system and maybe they would unify the code in zno this year we have ios Sierra [TS]

  and mac OS Sierra I don't know and there's a lot of things they could do [TS]

  there but i do think like the numbers are really nice and clean and simple now [TS]

  because they're relatively low but once you get into like you know the teams of [TS]

  it it's it's less cool than anything i watch us three know what I love it it's [TS]

  all we talk about mac OS than whatever you used to get i actually have I [TS]

  actually have it on a macbook pro downstairs and it's like it's exactly [TS]

  the sort of thing I would like I like to see Apple do which is it doesn't feel [TS]

  you know you could easily convince me that it wasn't even a new version of Mac [TS]

  os10 and it's like oh yeah look that looks a little different they've changed [TS]

  a little bit here and there but it is such a minor refinement in terms of [TS]

  everything i'm used to and then they just added you know some nice new [TS]

  features [TS]

  yeah and I'm happy with that too I mean you're from a developer's point of view [TS]

  I would love to see like some modernisation of app kit and possibly [TS]

  some kind of like cross-platform application UI kit kind of hybrid onion [TS]

  so I basically would have learned advocate but that I you know I [TS]

  understand also why that's kind of a big job and probably not worth doing [TS]

  necessarily or maybe waiting until like it like it presumably in the future [TS]

  there's gonna be some kind of rewrite or or refactoring of a lot of the [TS]

  frameworks to better optimize for swift and if you go beyond just renaming like [TS]

  right now to basically renamed them when using from Swift and that's about it but [TS]

  like there's there there's more that you could do there to make to really [TS]

  optimize it for swift so maybe down the road they're planning on like a a bigger [TS]

  change the frameworks and maybe they unify the men because you as you talk [TS]

  about often Apple's a very patient company and when it comes like long-term [TS]

  technical decisions like this they're willing to wait [TS]

  5-10 years to do what you need to do if they think it'll be better later to do [TS]

  with that so I think it would be interesting to see if they ever do [TS]

  tackle the problem or figures kind of consider you know after the right tool [TS]

  for this job and you get the right tool for that job books there's there's some [TS]

  basis for that not a hundred percent but there's some basis for that and maybe [TS]

  just kind of consider the mac to be the kind of like a completed platform like [TS]

  we don't need to do much on this anymore I don't know [TS]

  yeah sort of like the way I treat markdown yeah right i mean i had no joke [TS]

  i mean it's it's seriously like you know that it is what it is you know move on [TS]

  with the other stuff maybe i don't know i think you're right that if they do it [TS]

  they would it would probably coincide with a swift ification of frameworks I [TS]

  or you know if all these rumors i keep hearing about their like being like a [TS]

  single unified OS coming down the road with new everything you know then you [TS]

  know for the car and God knows what else you know then if if that is actually [TS]

  true and coming in the next five years then that would be the time to do it you [TS]

  know I don't know I just that I don't give that rumor a lot of weight honestly [TS]

  because it's it seems really grand and I don't know it just seems to me like when [TS]

  I study it and think about it and I'm trying to think about what to write [TS]

  about the the mac OS beta i keep thinking about something guy English [TS]

  friend of the show guy English said to me last week without it i was asking [TS]

  just friends and say who i just said hey let's just say if I got to interview [TS]

  somebody interesting what are some questions you guys have any questions [TS]

  that you wish I would ask that guy had pointed out that when when Steve Jobs [TS]

  introduced the mac OS 10 10 . l back in $MONTH 2001 he framed as saying this is [TS]

  the operating system for the next 15 years I was 15 years ago [TS]

  yep on and I i think it's almost you know he was trying to say this is the [TS]

  operating system for the you know the long-term for Apple this is something [TS]

  that Apple can really so what Apple's but they're 40 years old now so there [TS]

  were 25 year old company then this is the you know it it was as far away from [TS]

  the original mac as as we are today I think if anything in hindsight jobs [TS]

  clearly under sold the longevity of the platform because that's the thing i look [TS]

  at when I look at mac OS 10.2 12 is that this doesn't feel like an operating [TS]

  system on its last legs this feels like an operating system that is still in its [TS]

  prime and doing it's exactly what it wants to be and really doesn't need [TS]

  anything major [TS]

  I mean it could end it someday something like a you know executor example about [TS]

  it doing a lot of you I kid ification to appt kid or bringing uikit 22 Mac os10 [TS]

  in some way to sit there alongside app kit or who knows that you know major [TS]

  changes some day but at the moment it's really just fine and and does its job [TS]

  very well and the way I put a couple years ago and it's funny too because [TS]

  I've I said something about like the next five years but it was like five [TS]

  years ago so I undersold it you know as much five years ago as jobs did 15 was [TS]

  that that the heaviness of the mac conceptually that it's so so quick you [TS]

  know you can have so many windows open and you can go so deep and you have all [TS]

  these options like services and control you know right clicking and getting [TS]

  these contextual menus and even that just the existence of the menu bar that [TS]

  heaviness is what lets is remain so lightweight that you couldn't have it [TS]

  like the ipad and make it as simple as it is without having a platform to go [TS]

  with it that is as complicated as the mac i mean the downside of that kind of [TS]

  that logic though I think it's mostly sound but the downside of that is like [TS]

  that kind of assumes that they will be both maintained over time and we'll both [TS]

  succeed over time and i'm not sure the safe assumption to make [TS]

  hmm i wonder if it doesn't also conversely tie into the the the fact [TS]

  that there's some productivity tasks that just still aren't that great to do [TS]

  on an iPad you know that it's it works both ways that it's like [TS]

  it they just haven't been haven't felt forced to enable the ipad to be good at [TS]

  X because I'd you can just use your macbook for that but also like you know [TS]

  as they have added more productivity features to iOS and especially the ipad [TS]

  your kind of seeing them basically try to address the same problems like [TS]

  basically try to make it closer to a mac kind of environment so now you have [TS]

  things like a basic form of windowing and multiple windows on screen you know [TS]

  you have these document pickers are simplified view of a file system that [TS]

  are still files you know like it when i get there they're having to solve the [TS]

  same problems and oftentimes the solution they come up with are actually [TS]

  not substantially better than the solutions that we that like the pc and [TS]

  macro and figure out years ago [TS]

  sometimes they are but it seems like they're both kinda aiming for the same [TS]

  thing where they try to make mac OS easier to use and more iOS like in in [TS]

  ways at the same time to try to make iOS more productive and and more suited for [TS]

  pro use and by doing that they're kind of making iOS a little more mac like in [TS]

  these certain areas and I'm not sure either effort is a huge success [TS]

  necessarily I i think the the effort to to profile is is probably more [TS]

  successful than the effort to iOS fi the mac i think that if you think about it i [TS]

  can't think of anything this year that really was i OS notification of the Mack [TS]

  I feel like maybe they're done with that like they've they've done that enough of [TS]

  it that they wanted to and now they're just letting the MACD the mac maybe I'm [TS]

  overlooking and made that something but I can't think of anything not you might [TS]

  be right i mean it's it maybe it does seem like they've they've kind of [TS]

  figured out that like the Mac doesn't need to be iOS that can stand on its own [TS]

  like there may be different they've gained more confidence in it you know it [TS]

  as being its own thing [TS]

  mmm yeah I can't think of anything I mean there are features that are [TS]

  obviously in parallel with iOS you know like that the fancy new messages [TS]

  animations and stuff like that but that's not really iOS to find the mac [TS]

  that's just getting the same stuff at the same time [TS]

  yeah but you know ultimately in the long haul i I think having iOS be this [TS]

  juggernaut that is most of the market for apple will it will hurt the back it [TS]

  will cost the mac because you have situations like like messages as for [TS]

  example this where if you you know you can now have you know until until I os10 [TS]

  I message work basically the same way on all three platforms ipad iphone Mac it [TS]

  works the same we have the same capabilities roughly with the new [TS]

  version of messages now you're going to have this this large amount of [TS]

  functionality especially if the app thing takes off which other messages [TS]

  services have had apps that have taken off so they probably will and apples [TS]

  pretty good at apps and making apps take off as long as you aren't talking about [TS]

  the TV so by having by having this big app environment that's going to take off [TS]

  on iOS and having almost none of it available on the mac and having no easy [TS]

  technical bridge there because the mac is not uikit and is not iOS and is not [TS]

  running all the same frame works and doesn't have the same kind of extension [TS]

  system and binary supported everything else I i suspect that the mac is going [TS]

  to have some trouble in the next few years you know if this takes off because [TS]

  it's going to feel even more like a second-class citizen than it does now I [TS]

  don't know maybe I mean that does tie in this is a good that's a good segue I [TS]

  think because it does tie into I would I can't believe I almost forgot to bring [TS]

  this up is have one major regret from the live show there was one question [TS]

  from my list around like I said they're a bunch that I didn't get to that we're [TS]

  fine [TS]

  they were just sort of like a if we have time i'll get to these if not but there [TS]

  was one on that I had above the line of definitely want to ask that I didn't get [TS]

  to and it was on the tip of my tongue at one point but it didn't seem like the [TS]

  right moment and then after that it was like out of my mind and I have forgotten [TS]

  it [TS]

  and the question what would have been fulfilled and it would have been more or [TS]

  less along the lines of the mac pro hasn't been updated in over 900 days i [TS]

  think as a showtime it was 908 days and the mac mini hasn't been updated in over [TS]

  600 days and [TS]

  why do you hate pro pro customers and but did it you know [TS]

  insert audience laughter there but the true thing is i know for a fact talking [TS]

  to develop her friends and and just reading email from from DF the daring [TS]

  fireball audience which has a in addition to developers [TS]

  I definitely have a lot of readers and listeners who are professionals and [TS]

  video and photography and other things where you they want a new mac pro and [TS]

  they the concern is palpable that they worry that Apple's phenomenal success [TS]

  selling consumer products has left them a disinterested in professional products [TS]

  and I think that concern is warranted based on a lot of time over the last few [TS]

  years like a lot of I mean first of all like losing things like aperture and [TS]

  then seeing like I even the Final Cut transition to final cut [TS]

  now is that 1x or 10 i honestly don't know iphonedo i'm going to 10-under [TS]

  guessed it that I know it you know a lot of project still sore about that man [TS]

  died at from understand it's mostly been kinda you know people now are okay with [TS]

  it but like you know the software side apple has definitely backed away from [TS]

  the pro market in into a large degree the hardware side I think it's been even [TS]

  more dramatic and granted a lot of pros get away just fine with imax a lot of [TS]

  pros use the macbook pro and they're mostly fine with that too although is [TS]

  pretty pretty old i think one of the problems we have now and which ties into [TS]

  the to the Thunderbolt Display steakhouse but one of the problems we [TS]

  have now is that for it seems like Apple has whoever is responsible for deciding [TS]

  these like you know these Hardware generations and when to ship things and [TS]

  and what makes the cut and what gets pushed to the next release it seems like [TS]

  they're there sensibility for do we ship now with new stuff we've accumulated so [TS]

  far or do we wait and do a bigger update in X time with this that with the stuff [TS]

  that's imminent that were there soon will if we wait now we'll do a bigger [TS]

  update in six months that has x y&z [TS]

  and it seems like they're there sensibility for that is just a little [TS]

  bit off in recent years that was like there are new components they could have [TS]

  used for the mac pro and and you know the mac pro uses Xeon CPUs until server [TS]

  line Zeon's don't get released that often they get released i think roughly [TS]

  every 18 months there's like a new generation is beyond that would be [TS]

  suitable to use the mac pro gpus get released even more often that [TS]

  yeah and and for Apple to say that this is a like you know they redesigned the [TS]

  entire machine to be in entirely like GPU focus that you can't even buy this [TS]

  one only one GPU anymore [TS]

  you can only get it with two GPUs and they're going to be server ish or [TS]

  workstation each grade GPUs are some asterisk on that but basically they're [TS]

  going to workstation GPUs and it and you know this is the future of what how we [TS]

  see pro computing is these heavy GPU operating machines [TS]

  well the GPU world moves really quickly way faster than the cpu were elected and [TS]

  it's still moving at that speed you can't say your vision for pro computing [TS]

  is tons of GPU power and then not update the GPUs that you're selling for three [TS]

  years [TS]

  yeah like it seems like they set up this course of we're going to know this is [TS]

  our vision of the future of computing and they just didn't follow through at [TS]

  all and it to the point now where you know a year in it was kind of like a [TS]

  diversity computer faster two years in it was like as everything ok three years [TS]

  in people are looking for the exits and looking to switch to windows for their [TS]

  proceeds and that's a problem [TS]

  it definitely is because it and i think that in an ideal world [TS]

  well maybe not ideal because ideal would be updated very you know we see lots of [TS]

  update i would say in a realistically ideal world the mac pro could still be [TS]

  on a greater than one year cycle i think you know it could like 18 months though [TS]

  is about the upper limit right some kind of update [TS]

  unfortunately that's about as often as until makes news eons so all that all [TS]

  apple has to do is stop skipping generations because right now the like [TS]

  in in recent times the mac pro for maybe the last I don't know six seven years [TS]

  they've they've released roughly every other xeon generation like they just [TS]

  kind of [TS]

  skip every other one and i don't know i'm sure there maybe there's good [TS]

  reasons why but i'm not aware of what those are and it appears from the [TS]

  outside like they just don't feel like it and that's not a good reason if [TS]

  that's the reason and again like it even if for some reason you have to keep the [TS]

  same cpus if this computer is really gonna be a GPU focus machine released [TS]

  new GPU is for it and by the way this is a pro machine make those gpus [TS]

  upgradeable because that's what pros to do a lot of GPUs need they need [TS]

  upgradeable powerful recent gpus right and if that's not the focus of the [TS]

  machine then make you know make it cheaper by making a single GPU option [TS]

  and give more cpu options may be redesigned so it can support to two [TS]

  sockets again then you can have you can have them like you know double the [TS]

  amount of very high speed kors double the number of ram slots like it's like [TS]

  that they designed this machine to accomplish a goal that they are [TS]

  seemingly unable or unwilling to actually fulfill its it's just funny [TS]

  because it's a striking design and obviously it wasn't designed as a second [TS]

  thought you know it was designed as let's make let's redefine what it means [TS]

  to make a kick-ass professional high-performance desktop but then it's [TS]

  like it was again it's almost like they figured what we're done right came over [TS]

  the new mac pro and now we're done let's work on the iphone success [TS]

  yeah and it's just it's sad because it does seem like from the outside having [TS]

  you know having no answers from apple on this it does seem like they just don't [TS]

  care and and the whole Mac lineup kinda looks like that right now or at least [TS]

  the vast majority of it and it's you know I know they do care like I know [TS]

  that's not actually the case but it sure looks bad [TS]

  it does and it definitely doesn't and maybe it's not even entirely rational i [TS]

  think people could professionals concerns about Apple's long-term [TS]

  interest in this [TS]

  it's just that it if your personal livelihood is based on what you do at [TS]

  your computer and that's probably true it's certainly true for me and you and [TS]

  it's true for a lot of people listen I think to this show it's it's reasonable [TS]

  to be concerned that the only company that makes the tools that you use my [TS]

  be interested in serving you anymore right like that's like you know one [TS]

  thing Pro users hate with very good reason is being forced to change the [TS]

  what they used to do the job in the workflow their hardware the software [TS]

  whatever they hated it because it sucks because like when you're using him to [TS]

  get your work done you don't want to have to spend a bunch of time and money [TS]

  to change systems to relearn something else to update everything and and fixed [TS]

  everything breaks and deal with missing functionality for a while I have to buy [TS]

  new hardware by new software like it it's very disruptive to pros to have [TS]

  their platform their workflow messed with or be forced to change it so when [TS]

  you're buying something for pro use you want to be buying into a system that's [TS]

  going to be stable long-term you don't want to have to be learning a nap now [TS]

  that you're going to be discontinued next year and oh by the way you have to [TS]

  also switch to windows if you want to be competitive with your video encoding [TS]

  break or whatever like nobody wants that and it you know if it kind of feels like [TS]

  this is gonna be like a downward spiral where like Apple will keep really [TS]

  neglecting the pro hardware which will then make people trust it less and they [TS]

  won't sell as many and then Apple can justify discontinuing those are [TS]

  neglecting frozen and they say well we don't sell very many of these so why [TS]

  should pay attention to these yeah it's it's you know I I feel like it doesn't [TS]

  take a genius to analyze the situation where the mac is the pro platform and [TS]

  iOS is the consumer platform and especially with the iphone that's where [TS]

  the you know there's there's what I don't know 20-fold 30-fold more of them [TS]

  sold per quarter all around the world it's the expansion into all these other [TS]

  countries like India and especially China so of course of course it it's [TS]

  there [TS]

  you know most important priority of course they're never going to be late on [TS]

  an iphone or if they are into a catastrophe not not as a result of that [TS]

  we can wait [TS]

  like imagine if I funding get updated for 900 days you can't rightly I mean [TS]

  literally I know people make these jokes that you know the stocks down ten [TS]

  percent Tim Cook should be fired or shouldn't even say they make jokes and [TS]

  other jackasses elysee they're serious [TS]

  but it with no hyperbole if Apple when you got even close to that if Apple went [TS]

  you know two years without an iphone update i think would be reasonable for [TS]

  the the board did maybe call tim cook and say it's time you know you're out [TS]

  yeah that would be that would be cause for serious concern right it's that you [TS]

  can't even really it's unfathomable yeah you know so 900 days for the mac pro's [TS]

  you know it's not gonna get anybody fired but it certainly looks Ben and I [TS]

  can even see it with the mac mini where the mac minis never been updated quickly [TS]

  and maybe that's not really a pro machine although i do know that there [TS]

  are some people who use it and pro sort of ways by like you know setting up like [TS]

  build machines and stuff like that or like like servers for offices [TS]

  organizations in some cases right and I would you know my friend Brian Stuckey [TS]

  at a formerly of mac mini colo yeah at mack stadium is the new company that he [TS]

  had bought them right yeah yeah well they like merged and even so I know he [TS]

  sent me like a please ask if you get any under know you've got on the talk show [TS]

  but if you get anybody good can you please ask him about my poor Mac Mini so [TS]

  there is a pro angle on on the mac mini yeah but also it's worth pointing out to [TS]

  like the current generation mac mini and the current generation mac pro both do a [TS]

  lot less than their previous hardware designs [TS]

  yeah so like they've taken these products and not only have they made [TS]

  them you know indicated that approach actually more expensive now because I [TS]

  have to pay for two gpus so now it's more expensive and it has less [TS]

  flexibility and less upgradability and fewer and fewer configuration options [TS]

  unless less if you can put into it less maximum capacity i know a lot of areas [TS]

  and the mac mini to the mac mini used to have quad-core option and it was a [TS]

  really great wave to get a decent amount of power and a little you know headless [TS]

  server and occasionally they go up for sale on the apple refurb store and there [TS]

  they just disappear in like a minute like they're there is still incredible [TS]

  demand for I believe it was a 2012 era cpu in these roughly twenty twelve mac [TS]

  minis because they happen to be quad-core and that's a lot more [TS]

  processing power in total in parallel [TS]

  then the current models dual-core highest configuration [TS]

  yeah and look at what people want to do is these things that are paralyzed [TS]

  double right especially in a server so like or you know even if using it at [TS]

  home like for like a media thing for your TV or if using as a built over all [TS]

  those things using the course of almost everything that like a pro gonna do with [TS]

  it is parallel and and you know even for home users like at least make the option [TS]

  like so Apple has these machines now where they're actually making them worse [TS]

  and in some cases worse and more expensive overtime and updating them [TS]

  almost never and then so of course sales going to go down which again is gonna [TS]

  it's gonna make that downward spiral start with that then they won't be able [TS]

  to justify updating them and it's gonna get worse and I feel like you know and [TS]

  we're gonna get through this i think if we ever get to the headphone jack and I [TS]

  you probably shouldn't let it get the text i have a lot to say about that but [TS]

  we're doubling it it seems like Apple is somewhere and apple there's like this [TS]

  obsession with getting rid of things getting rid of options getting rid of [TS]

  ports getting rid of hardware getting rid of of something you know just [TS]

  getting rid of things and I can see how you get that way I've gotten that way [TS]

  before my software development [TS]

  we're like it feels really good to get rid of stuff and oftentimes there are [TS]

  benefits but not always [TS]

  it isn't always worth it and sometimes the costs outweigh the benefits and it [TS]

  seems like you know similar to how I question the the the decision-making [TS]

  that has led to like oh well just wait until thing in the near future to update [TS]

  this computer [TS]

  I also question the judgment recently of we can just take this out or we can just [TS]

  make this worse or we can just make this more expensive or whatever and it'll be [TS]

  worth it in the end because we're moving forward it's the future the vision of [TS]

  the future is things can do less and cost more like no that's but that's that [TS]

  that's actually what we're seeing in some of these products and it that does [TS]

  concern me [TS]

  I i think so too would have an interesting task so I regret not asking [TS]

  that question i don't have good on that one on stage with it but probably not i [TS]

  would but in order to be better that he didn't get there were prior to WWDC up [TS]

  until a couple weeks there were a lot of expectations that there might be [TS]

  hardware announcer [TS]

  and if they would you know Mac people are thinking maybe new macbooks maybe a [TS]

  new mac pro I don't really think that new mac pro ever really heated up too [TS]

  much but there were whispers that that the kids the supply constraint of [TS]

  Thunderbolt displays was going down and it's just one of these like catch-22 [TS]

  chicken in the egg problems right like which comes first like well if they're [TS]

  gonna you know they needed desperately need a retina standalone display like [TS]

  this . once you're used to retina on all of your devices from the watch to your [TS]

  phone to your iPad and the imac has this beautiful beautiful display it just [TS]

  sticks out like a sore thumb that their best display for a mac pro is not retina [TS]

  and it's like for me at this point it's like I I almost can't believe how I [TS]

  can't believe I lived my whole life before rent this place but so fuzzy and [TS]

  so it sticks out but if they make it you know what drives it you know does commit [TS]

  you know if they came out with a 5k retina display i think that the existing [TS]

  mac pro wouldn't be able to drive it well there's like again it's like a [TS]

  whole buncha astrix on that like it could with like dual cables maybe and [TS]

  with certain acts like basically like the way that displays are driven over [TS]

  Thunderbolt ports is way more complicated like the more as time goes [TS]

  on I learn even more about it and I learned how little I know about it yeah [TS]

  and like basically there's an asterisk and everything and it's not as simple as [TS]

  well [TS]

  Thunderbolt doesn't have enough bandwidth for this because it isn't [TS]

  technically Thunderbolts displayport that runs that it's like there's all [TS]

  these all these little asterisks like well you can make a bridge get that did [TS]

  this you can use this hack over the cable to do this and and it's basically [TS]

  a mess right now and it will be much cleaner and simpler with Thunderbolt [TS]

  three [TS]

  I remember when that when the original 5k imac came out the first one which is [TS]

  what i'm using right now to give the new wondered you have the original I'd say [TS]

  when you do [TS]

  yes i have the exact same one that you do and i was talking after that was [TS]

  announced that I got to talk and like a product briefing and they explained to [TS]

  me like some of the product marketing people explain exactly how they're [TS]

  driving it into [TS]

  and it's just amazing it's such a hack I mean I had not like a bad hack like a [TS]

  dirty hack but it's you know it's just crazy but it totally makes sense as to [TS]

  this is like the embodiment of why Apple likes to make an all-in-one product [TS]

  because all of that ugliness they can just encapsulate it inside the thing and [TS]

  we'll just take care of it will write our own i mean i mentioned this on the [TS]

  event that what they call it that the custom the teeth on the time yet roller [TS]

  the timing controller because it's like they have to have these the the reason [TS]

  they have a custom timing controller i think i think i have it in later times [TS]

  but because they need like two cables to do it they need this timing controller [TS]

  so that the the two signals coming in look like you're just getting one [TS]

  picture that's basically it yeah its 22 pictures that are being combined in one [TS]

  set of you know apples very high frame rate so that you don't notice anything [TS]

  they need to write a custom timing controller it just is it just perfectly [TS]

  embodies why Apple likes to make devices like the imac rather than the mac pro [TS]

  with a standalone display so I think what's going on I think what's going on [TS]

  is that they're going to release a 5k cinema display and they're going to [TS]

  release new mac pros and i'm going to release new macbook pros but it's like [TS]

  that like they can't release any of them until they're already [TS]

  I think honestly that's that's probably just like a choice that they want to [TS]

  release them all together i mean they probably could stand a little bit if if [TS]

  they really felt like it but the fact is it doesn't matter we don't really know I [TS]

  guess they obviously could for example they could release new mac pros that are [TS]

  capable right in this thing and just say just use your old crappy dell monitor or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  exactly so that's you know probably sometime in the next six months were [TS]

  probably getting all these things if I if I would hazard a guess i'm guessing [TS]

  well the mac pro's a bit of a problem because the history here of course there [TS]

  was a bit of a problem but the the type of zeon it would use if it's being [TS]

  released this fall would most likely be the broad well beyond the sky lake xeon [TS]

  is coming out sometime next year and it's a really big improvement for the [TS]

  sea on platform like there's a lot of other stuff that goes along with that so [TS]

  I'm kind of afraid that Apple's gonna wait for the head and if they do cover [TS]

  if they don't wait will Syracuse [TS]

  well he's always gonna want it Syracuse's back is to the wall at people [TS]

  who don't listen to ATP and I bet the overlap is like ninety percent and [TS]

  probably but the mac OS Sierra doesn't officially run on John's because he's [TS]

  using like a 1998 at bondi bondi blue powermac doesn't doesn't run on it it's [TS]

  finally been dropped so now he's in the conundrum mary has been waiting for all [TS]

  of these years 20 22 years or something like that to upgrade his mac pro and now [TS]

  he then has to or you won't be able to run Mac OS Sierra on it or there there's [TS]

  one of those like hack bootloader programs that will like modify Sierra to [TS]

  actually work like it actually does work they just don't feel like supporting it [TS]

  basically so like you actually could install it through this like [TS]

  unofficially support hack like it what do you think is more offensive to [TS]

  syracuse guys they're gonna panic or we're not running it or buying a new [TS]

  macro that he knows is going to be obsolete it's in right like I at this is [TS]

  a really tough position to put him away it's almost like a perfect predator has [TS]

  a new file system yeah and it's the only way that he could use it [TS]

  yeah actually no no they're going to car and they are going to come out the file [TS]

  system for El Capitan right i think so [TS]

  no no why would they did I thought that they were going to so they like plug a [TS]

  disk into El Cap but maybe by the time the file system actually ships that it [TS]

  Ciara will be the old release [TS]

  I don't know Anna it's very funny though maybe this really was like a masterful [TS]

  trolling of Syracuse of this year it really was really is but it's his own [TS]

  fault for not buying should about the mac pro as we know as soon as it came [TS]

  out [TS]

  yeah and i even offered to sell me when i sold my 2010 Erehwon much week does [TS]

  run this which is that you know decently better than his 2008 offer to sell to [TS]

  him for a really good Frederick well below market just gonna want to carry [TS]

  but I don't deal with selling it [TS]

  and he was like no I'm August wait i'm happy with my 2008 ok the best time to [TS]

  buy a computer is when it's brand-new and maybe if you're really smart buy it [TS]

  like just a little after it comes out so you can read initial reviews and just [TS]

  make sure there's not like something really stinky right by like like a month [TS]

  or two in yeah yeah yeahs weeks in like apple doesn't they don't lower their [TS]

  prices over time as the computers get older like you're paying the same price [TS]

  and the same computer on day number nine hundred of the mac pro as you're paying [TS]

  on day 0 [TS]

  I like who's I I just can't even imagine who's buying a mac pro right now i mean [TS]

  if you have to [TS]

  yeah i just imagined it almost everyone they're selling right now is through [TS]

  gritted teeth like somebody who's old one broke or or they've made a new hire [TS]

  you know you've got a new guy on the staff we got to get him a mac pro or [TS]

  something like that right anything else I can be directed by putting the toilet [TS]

  and like August yes dammit like but like you know that makes people mad like this [TS]

  is yet another reason why Apple needs to really look at this and see if they [TS]

  could do this better release things more often because like right now if you buy [TS]

  any mac pro and even know yet [TS]

  not a lot of people buy the mac pro you know a lot of people buy the macbook pro [TS]

  and that is also really outdated and you know to have people knowing that these [TS]

  things are old and outdated and I think a lot of people i mean not everybody [TS]

  will know knows that but i think a lot of buyers do and they're going to go a [TS]

  whole summer now of all these back-to-school sales of our like kids [TS]

  going to college buying a whole bunch of macbook pros again like that everyone [TS]

  kind of knows are basically like three year old hardware like man that it like [TS]

  this this is making people unhappy about buying apple products [TS]

  yeah that is not where you want them to be because apples [TS]

  I think apples mojo is the fact that people love you know people love by [TS]

  apple products [TS]

  exactly it's like you know everybody it's like your Christmas you know people [TS]

  at people don't even do unboxing videos save the unboxing video yeah and like [TS]

  like when i got my tubes my cylinder mac pro like a couple months after it was [TS]

  released I don't like figure something about year when I got that I was [TS]

  really happy with it it was amazing [TS]

  if but if I went to buy one today now that I've already replaced it with an [TS]

  imac almost two years ago like it's still the same computer to hit a button [TS]

  it that i ordered in December 2013 [TS]

  I mean it it's really kind of strange really is and you don't think i think i [TS]

  was saying before it's like you can even go down the line and just show that the [TS]

  even within the macbook family the macbook one has gotten a year-over-year [TS]

  update you know less overdue like the more consumer-friendly device is updated [TS]

  more regularly than a professional one even within the macbook lineup the pro [TS]

  and seems to get short shrift yeah and that's something i get like whatever it [TS]

  whatever Apple decides you know what we need to hold back and wait for X that [TS]

  needs tweaking and it for a long time it was just like oh you know we'll just [TS]

  show up whenever Intel gives new laptop cpus but you know in recent years intel [TS]

  has has had a lot of delays we've gotten less reliable so maybe he couple that or [TS]

  or you know definitely don't skip any or figure out ways to give more free more [TS]

  frequent updates like last year when they they brought the four stalks [TS]

  trackpad to the 15-inch macbook pro so like it has technically been updated but [TS]

  notice that almost nothing else about changed from her the reason why is that [TS]

  the GPU was using was so old that video stop making it or ati with which [TS]

  everyone was like they just stopped making the part and Apple was still [TS]

  selling these brand-new in the 15-inch macbook pro their highest on laptop [TS]

  oh and if that's true i mean that's that's really embarrassing [TS]

  hey we just crossed the one hour marker a little bit ago so I think we're on [TS]

  pace for a two-hour show we'll see [TS]

  yeah okay you haven't seen the length of my notes for the headphone jack i made [TS]

  an outline you're in trouble [TS]

  let me take another break and thank our very good friends longtime sponsor the [TS]

  show audible has an unmatched selection of audiobooks [TS]

  original audio shows news comedy and more get a free 30-day trial at [TS] / talk show they've been advertised [TS]

  in on podcast forever and I always say it . because anybody is listening to me [TS]

  tell you right now about audible is somebody who enjoys spoken word content [TS]

  and that's what [TS]

  audible has they've got gobs and gobs untold County diamond of hours left in [TS]

  your life probably to listen to everything that audible has I used to [TS]

  think there's one thing about audible that is it [TS]

  I opening to me is that I always sentiment is that audiobooks company and [TS]

  they do have thousands and thousands of audiobooks but the other types of [TS]

  content they have like the like I just said the original audio shows news the [TS]

  comedy and stuff like that tons of stuff like that tube so even if you're not [TS]

  into audio books like hearing a novel read out loud or something like that [TS]

  there is tons of stuff there if you like spoken word content and if you don't [TS]

  like Spock spoken word content I don't understand how you are hearing [TS]

  like Spock spoken word content I don't understand how you are hearing [TS]

  you talk to you right now so go there check them out you can get a 30-day free [TS]

  trial and you just sign up at / talk show know that just / [TS]

  talk show go there thanks to audible for sponsoring our show go there and fill up [TS]

  your phone with audio content [TS]

  alright let's talk about the headphone jack and share you wanted a short show [TS]

  CI I'm fascinated by this I I wanted to write about this a few months ago and it [TS]

  was one of those things right collected a lot of notes and had some thoughts on [TS]

  it and just now I think it's one of those ones where having a podcast sort [TS]

  of hurts my column a daring fireball because it was like I talked about it [TS]

  was a couple people on the show over a week or two and then it's like I felt [TS]

  like I got out of my system so I never wrote about it [TS]

  see this is this is where you're in trouble now because you know a few [TS]

  months ago when the rumor first started started going around we all talked about [TS]

  like I talked about on ATP i remand and so I probably won't get a chance to talk [TS]

  about ntp this week so therefore we're gonna dump this on you [TS]

  ok because it's interesting like you know so this kind of flamed up again [TS]

  this week because nilay patel the verge of the big thing about it was that was [TS]

  so yeah harder to start with Daisuke Wakabayashi published a story in The [TS]

  Wall Street Journal monday more or less confirming all the stuff that we've [TS]

  heard that the next iPhone is going to largely look like the iphone 6 and [TS]

  success and yeah removal of the headphone port would be one of the main [TS]

  features features this changes changes changes I I Ali ok i will happily [TS]

  written that intention to changes and forget it just you know a whole bunch of [TS]

  things that we've heard rumored for awhile coming out of the supply chain [TS]

  and wakizashi had sources familiar with the matter who can't speak for whatever [TS]

  reason confirm them [TS]

  ah which is worthwhile it's you know it didn't have any there's nothing in it [TS]

  that I hadn't seen before but it's always worthwhile when somebody with the [TS]

  stature and the [TS]

  the track record of the wall street journal confirms it but then after that [TS]

  that's when Neil i published most was the headline and I forget it was like [TS]

  something like you know six reasons why the you know you don't want the rueful [TS]

  headphone jack and and he even said like in his Twitter lake you making taking [TS]

  the headphone jack off iphones is user hostile and stupid and he even said he [TS]

  even kind of like-- disclaimed in his twitter link to it like I was really [TS]

  angry when I wrote this so it probably sucks like something like that like so [TS]

  you know I give the benefit of the doubt on that and a lot of his points i [TS]

  thought were valid and good and not all I didn't agree with all of it but I i [TS]

  think i agree with most of it and then you wrote this rebuttal piece mostly [TS]

  mostly running him i think that was basically like it you know its progress [TS]

  that's going to happen why not now is that is that a fair summary I yes it's [TS]

  going to happen eventually maybe why not now I if there's one thing that seems [TS]

  like people misread it I think Steve stress had a piece on [TS]

  yes medium and and his assumption is that I was arguing that this is a good [TS]

  change for iphone users and I never said that if you read my thing I never said [TS]

  that because i don't know i have no idea what they're replacing with I don't know [TS]

  and and walked by she didn't either i think people assume that the default at [TS]

  your buds will be lightning if if they're getting rid of the audio port [TS]

  what we call it what is it called standard headphone jack doesn't have a [TS]

  name [TS]

  it has a few names technically it's one of the family of phone plugs and it is [TS]

  specifically a 3.5 millimeter trrs jack [TS]

  well the TR RS Jack you're welcome i think most people assume that the [TS]

  standard earpods are going to be lightning because then they don't have [TS]

  to have batteries and there's no latency there's all sorts of good reasons why [TS]

  you still want a wired set of your earphones earpods whatever you want to [TS]

  call them could be that the defaults will be bluetooth or some other new [TS]

  proprietary wireless solution seems like an upsell that does to me too [TS]

  also if they were going to have a proprietary wireless thing that we've [TS]

  been using the apple watch is Bluetooth sucks for the Apple watch [TS]

  so the heat they definitely use it there if they had one well maybe it wasn't [TS]

  ready [TS]

  maybe it's up there with the skylines eons right i don't know but who knows [TS]

  but i just don't know I don't know what the story is and so my argument is more [TS]

  I'd i think that the removal of this port is inevitable [TS]

  will it be there in 50 years i I just no way so what is the timeframe well i [TS]

  think it was there 50 years ago that is true and I think it's you know it it as [TS]

  had a remarkable you know run but I feel like the time is up so it just for the [TS]

  sake of argument here I looked this up before the show there's a wikipedia [TS]

  article on the phone plug the the large like they've never seen like a stereo [TS]

  from like the seventies or if you're a high-end headphones nerd and you seem [TS]

  like the quarter inch version plug is basically it looks just like the regular [TS]

  one but it's about twice as big and dimensions [TS]

  yes that version was invented in 1878 for you so enough phone exchanges and [TS]

  and the the stereo version that we mostly know today that has that has the [TS]

  the two rings halfway through so it has like three total areas of the plug and [TS]

  it's smaller than 3.5 million won that one appeared roughly in 1964 and became [TS]

  popular with the original sony walkman in 1979 so we're talking about at least [TS]

  a good 40 years [TS]

  yeah yeah so this thing is old and you know this you know what the reason it [TS]

  has lasted so long is because it is universal [TS]

  it is very simple electrically it's very very simple [TS]

  there's no smarts to it's just like it's just pure analog signal going over these [TS]

  you know two or three wires inside the cable or in the case of the of the head [TS]

  for remote for wires into the cable very very simple electrically they're very [TS]

  reliable for the most part like the the port can get gunked up with dust but so [TS]

  can the lighting ports open any port so you know compared to other ports it's [TS]

  not particularly bad for reliability it's very very durable and it's very [TS]

  very cheap you have this combination of like standard universal cheap durable [TS]

  simple like it's really great for all these things and by the way if you think [TS]

  it's too thick [TS]

  there is also a thinner version this so this version is 3.5 millimeter is a 2.5 [TS]

  millimeter [TS]

  version that used to be on like some like answering machines and then more [TS]

  recently it's often used like on the on the ear end of removable headphone [TS]

  cables [TS]

  well you'll have like the end of the phone and the other employees into like [TS]

  your ear cup and sometimes that'll be the skinnier one you met you I have a [TS]

  couple of those I've seen that I i used to own something that had that I don't [TS]

  know what the hell was though it doesn't matter [TS]

  well the other thing about about making the devices thinner with the standard [TS]

  headphone jack i keep pointing this out over and over again but the ipod touch [TS]

  still has it and the ipod touch is significantly thinner than the current [TS]

  iphone yes and the nanotube i believe it's also thinner and also has its like [TS]

  it you know it the reason to remove it now isn't a thickness barrier because [TS]

  you know where are you know we see apples apple makes their devices with [TS]

  this so that's not the reason i would also say you know so like in my category [TS]

  of like reason that doesn't have to go yet you know it assuming it has to go [TS]

  out sometime [TS]

  they're one of the reasons this might be the time is like you know what are we [TS]

  gaining they're moving out because there's cost-of-living it so i think one [TS]

  thing we're gaining would be you know a lot of people assume space for the [TS]

  battery right except that if you look at the tear downs of you know where this [TS]

  port is on the phone while you're down there at the bottom next to the [TS]

  Lightning assembly and everything and then on the other side of the speaker [TS]

  next we meet again microphone everything down there like that's not where you [TS]

  need space for the battery I mean they could go to some kind of crazy system [TS]

  like the macbook one where they have like different shapes of battery things [TS]

  all over the place but this is a phone and they have to replace a lot of phone [TS]

  batteries under warranty and people replace them aftermarket anyone when [TS]

  they're old and in different countries and everything you need the battery to [TS]

  be easily serviceable replaceable and cheap and so keeping it as one regular [TS]

  rectangle of a battery is way more practical for them and also like the [TS]

  total amount of space you would save or the supersonic space you would gain by [TS]

  invading that little you know rectangle of area at the bottom of the phone where [TS]

  the headphone jack is you can just make the battery like some minuscule amount [TS]

  thicker and keep it in the same footprint and it would have that same [TS]

  volume increase and be way cheaper and easier to deal with so like battery life [TS]

  is probably not the reason either because it's just like where it is in [TS]

  the phone and what else is down there like [TS]

  don't really see a massive internal redesign of the phone layout inside [TS]

  where that space would suddenly become space you could expand the battery into [TS]

  it might but I think it's unlikely [TS]

  well I think it goes far enough in that the space is significant but I don't [TS]

  think its use [TS]

  I think the biggest city space-saving argument or or three-dimensional you [TS]

  know this thing is just too big or too thick or too long argument would [TS]

  probably have to do with next year's new iphone which I believe it is you know I [TS]

  mentioned it on the show and I know whether there's rumors about it to that [TS]

  if it goes to more of an edge-to-edge display which would be like the top and [TS]

  bottom of the display go to the edges closes the sides do now then I think [TS]

  it's a problem because I don't it [TS]

  I think it's a lot harder to have the jit the jack would therefore have to be [TS]

  underneath the display [TS]

  yes so remove it then well thats what im saying you don't think that the y now [TS]

  that doesn't count for y now unless they just right [TS]

  possibly just want to eat the shit sandwich now of putting up with people's [TS]

  complaints about this a year in advance of unveiling that phone so that people [TS]

  don't complain about it when the amazing new industrial design is unveiled and [TS]

  and that might be the reason but that's a crappy reason I don't think that's the [TS]

  reason though i don't think there is a reason all I'm saying it you know this [TS]

  is the the secondary thrust of my art you know my argument which is what we [TS]

  don't know how about we just wait and find out what the story is before we [TS]

  complain like it's to me that it's it's too soon to say this is user hostile and [TS]

  stupid right although it's also too late to change it right but we don't have [TS]

  proof that it's not user hostile and stupid [TS]

  it might be that guess that if there's anything that i wish i would have [TS]

  emphasized more it's like okay maybe it is but we certainly don't know that yet [TS]

  and it may well not be i'm wondering and you know you definitely know more about [TS]

  headphones and I do is I'm wondering about if it switches to lightning [TS]

  something digital how much better could the input be not just that output right [TS]

  now you think of headphones output you put them in and you listen right but [TS]

  like the whole input stuff like voice you know through the microphone and the [TS]

  little clicks like when you you know what they're like play pause and fast [TS]

  forward and stuff like [TS]

  I mean you know we write a podcast player that stuff is all that's just [TS]

  like it serious hack it is a hack but it's also it also works [TS]

  yeah he's letting you know the main thing that you can say in from that [TS]

  point of view is that is limiting like for example you can only have mono input [TS]

  right now there's only there's only one pin for the microphone return so like [TS]

  you can only have one chance so if you wanted to have like I you know a nicer [TS]

  microphone setup maybe if you want a podcast or record something from your [TS]

  from your device you can if you're using that port you can only record a mono and [TS]

  lightning adapter look you know lightning devices can add much more than [TS]

  that they can have all sorts of inputs and outputs and and especially if they [TS]

  have custom custom apps to deal with them then they can do a lot of the most [TS]

  of them do but that also isn't a good argument because like well we already [TS]

  have that now that you don't have to remove the headphone port to have [TS]

  lightning audio we have lighting audio already and we also have the headphone [TS]

  port [TS]

  yeah but you know and there's also by the way while we're on this topic there [TS]

  there's a huge argument going around with with the pro side of this that this [TS]

  could enable better audio quality and let me tell you as an audio file that is [TS]

  complete garbage this this doesn't it first of all you know you have the same [TS]

  problem of like well if lightning headphones can be better [TS]

  great we can have that now we don't need to remove the headphone jack to make [TS]

  that happen and and the way iOS channels audio devices if any other device is [TS]

  connected via lightning or USB or whatever that device just takes over [TS]

  from the built-in microphone and speakers and headphones and everything [TS]

  else like you don't even have to like this offer is not to do anything to take [TS]

  advantage of lightning connector audio devices that they just works so there's [TS]

  basically no downside [TS]

  from that point of view to keeping the headphone jack around and the idea that [TS]

  some people have that a lightning connected headphone would have better [TS]

  audio quality because you could have like a really nice deck and amp that [TS]

  deck is the DAC to audio converter that converts literally convert the digital [TS]

  signal to the sound that you hear and then of course the amplifies that two [TS]

  different volumes for you at the end . it has to go to analog there's no right [TS]

  because it's actually going to put sound waves into your ear right and so that I [TS]

  wouldn't worry about the drm angle [TS]

  you know I did because I like it would be trivial to let you know if if you [TS]

  actually relying on like analog output to capture to rerecord to pirate [TS]

  something will be trivial to just you know take apart the headphones and [TS]

  connect couple things to their to the trip to the wires go to the drivers and [TS]

  you know that be it so that's that part of the drm is not a concern licensing [TS]

  the connector is but I'll get to that but the idea that you get better audio [TS]

  quality out of having separate like premium headphones have premium [TS]

  dachshund amson them that is possible however it's extremely unlikely in [TS]

  reality because in reality it is very difficult to distinguish differences [TS]

  between Dax and amps especially once you've crossed a minimum threshold and [TS]

  like people who made this argument are often talking about like how Jackson [TS]

  computers are always crappy and the fact is they were really crappy like in the [TS]

  nineties that's when they were crappy and most like built-in headphone jacks [TS]

  and and sound cards that are in computers and and our phones and tablets [TS]

  today are pretty decent like they're fine and the limiting factor to how good [TS]

  they can sound is not the quality of the DAC and the amp in the phone it's almost [TS]

  always limiting factor is the headphones that using and the environment you're [TS]

  listening in like that's [TS]

  that's it like when you're listening to your phone like you might be commuting [TS]

  you might be outside you might be in a loud shared office and you're probably [TS]

  listening on headphones that are like you know at best decent probably not [TS]

  amazing [TS]

  probably not like the big full-size open-back ones that audio files like to [TS]

  listen critically with and those headphones listening on like there's so [TS]

  much room for improvement in the sound just by better headphones better drivers [TS]

  better tuning of the sound him to make it you know less trying to imitate beats [TS]

  badly and more just trying to sound good and you know like that is where [TS]

  improvement comes from it does not come from in the portable brown but does not [TS]

  usually come from different tax and apps at that dachshund answer just a really [TS]

  nice way to sell overpriced stuff people who want better sound but never [TS]

  considered the fact that they should just buy better headphones [TS]

  I I saw somebody today and I'm sorry who [TS]

  no that's okay this is good somebody today was speculating that maybe they [TS]

  will switch they'll do like a noise cancelling thing and they'll have the [TS]

  the stuff on the phone doing it like right now when you buy noise-canceling [TS]

  headphones you have to put batteries in the actual headphones like when you buy [TS]

  them from bos or whatever because it takes it takes power to actually do the [TS]

  noise cancelling so the phone could do it but I i find that unlikely like it [TS]

  sounds good when you think about noise cancelling you know some people like [TS]

  noise cancelling headphones and in certain scenarios like being on an [TS]

  airplane [TS]

  I it's you know really is very useful but i think that sounds very unlikely to [TS]

  me that anybody is going to find it and I a good idea to have headphones that [TS]

  draw power from your iphone like when you're using the headphones your you'll [TS]

  get worse battery life like that [TS]

  yeah that doesn't sound like something people are gonna sign up for like there [TS]

  is a penguin analyze things what I mean in reality like it isn't that much power [TS]

  but it's still you know it's still not trivial but the reality is like the [TS]

  high-end headphones like noise canceling everything [TS]

  those are all moving bluetooth now and I believe my have I have things to say [TS]

  about bluetooth as well but I think like a horse had this argument is like what [TS]

  lighting headphones will be great but you know what lighting headphones are [TS]

  very expensive like pretty premium price right now this very few of them in the [TS]

  fields are very expensive they will always be more expensive than other [TS]

  headphones because they're gonna have the Apple licensing the mfi you know [TS]

  stuff and then they're gonna want to be sold an apple retail stores are gonna [TS]

  have these you know primo you there i'm guessing mostly headphones are going to [TS]

  be above 300 dollars in all likelihood and you're gonna have this stuff but the [TS]

  problem is if you look at the headphone market everyone's kinda freaking out and [TS]

  trying to rush out bluetooth models in the last couple years because everybody [TS]

  wants noise cancelling and Bluetooth at in the high-end like if you're looking [TS]

  at high-end headphones like headphones that cost more than 200 bucks there are [TS]

  four iphones or for portable use like everybody wants bluetooth and noise [TS]

  cancelling and so that is you know in many ways that's an argument for the [TS]

  headphone jack removal because you can say well you know if everyone's going [TS]

  bluetooth then you know we don't need this right and this is why I think like [TS]

  no bluetooth is it in many ways it is worse then wired headphones it in many [TS]

  ways it's a lot worse than wear headphones like the sound quality is [TS]

  usually pretty rough [TS]

  by the way the reason sound quality is pretty rough is not usually because of [TS]

  lossy compression over Bluetooth it is usually because the headphones are kind [TS]

  of mediocre or garbagey and they they have guess what they have a built-in [TS]

  deck and amp in every bluetooth headphone because it has to because it [TS]

  does not powered by your phone and the signals transmitted originally from your [TS]

  phone so we already have a world full of aftermarket Jackson amps in headphones [TS]

  and they're all guard pitch and the the most sophisticated things they do are [TS]

  they tweak the audio they tweaked like the EQ curve of the audio coming out of [TS]

  the headphones to make up for crappy headphone drivers so like if you have if [TS]

  you have headphones and say you know suppose they have like really weak base [TS]

  and they know that everybody wants strong base they'll just use the the [TS]

  deck and chip in in the bluetooth headphone they will tweak the sound [TS]

  before they send it out to the head to the driver to get artificially boost the [TS]

  base and these are like you know cheap components doing things you know it in [TS]

  you know a very basic way it sounds pretty rough and you can hear this [TS]

  yourself if you have like noise cancelling headphones like any bose [TS]

  headphones that also can operate with a wire passively if you can like turn off [TS]

  the noise cancelling and use them with the wire turn it off and listen to how [TS]

  much worse everything sounds that what you hear when it's off that's like what [TS]

  the headphones and app actually sound like when you turn it on there like [TS]

  applying this big EQ curve to try to like boost it and make it sound better [TS]

  artificially but it never it's never quite right it never sounds great or [TS]

  natural [TS]

  that's the world we're going towards it for if we're going towards more [TS]

  bluetooth more lightning you know headphones that are not just passive [TS]

  analog devices but actually have active circuitry [TS]

  them it's not going towards the world of like amazing Jackson amps and portable [TS]

  headphones it's going towards the world of mediocre headphones that have their [TS]

  flaws paper over by kind of these these DSP hacks so what are they gonna do I [TS]

  feel like if they switch if Apple's story is ok by this new iphone when you [TS]

  open it up you get a pair of our new bluetooth ear pods or whatever they're [TS]

  going to call them and somebody had a nose like a trademark filing on the word [TS]

  air pod there's no way that that's in the package you know I'm thinking in the [TS]

  package you get like you get the the cable adapted version of them just like [TS]

  today and then they will tell you with the lightning port in some form you know [TS]

  whether it's like a dongle and then had no other information we have headphones [TS]

  there's no way they're probably not no way bro it will definitely sell you on [TS]

  but they might put in the Box I don't know [TS]

  no probably not but not either way they might give you a dongle so that you can [TS]

  use your existing headphones if you'd prefer not to but the headphones they've [TS]

  given the box have to just plug right in and that means it has to add that's [TS]

  probably right [TS]

  yeah so i'm guessing that they will gladly sell you a set of air pods if [TS]

  that's going to be a real product name they will sell you a bluetooth version [TS]

  of headphones for I don't know a hundred fifty bucks 200 bucks maybe like you [TS]

  know that's going to be an add-on that's not going to be in the box because you [TS]

  mean but you know let's let's not forget that Apple's really good at like making [TS]

  you spend a little bit more money . sale and all those attachments sounds like [TS]

  they've mastered this now i think both of youse both of these ideas qualify as [TS]

  of course that's what they're going to do their Apple of course Apple isn't [TS]

  going to make you use a dongle their apple there's no way they're going to [TS]

  make use dongle and of course the air wireless ones are going to be it [TS]

  expensive upset because their advocates exactly so that's sold and and the idea [TS]

  of like moving towards the world of Bluetooth because let's be honest it's [TS]

  going to be mostly it's not going to be mostly lighting headphones except for [TS]

  the ones that come in the box those will be very popular but like aftermarket [TS]

  headphones i think going to be way more often bluetooth and not in the future in [TS]

  the near future if the story and we're almost there now if the story is go go [TS]

  with bluetooth [TS]

  it solved some of the problems in terms of why would they get rid of the [TS]

  headphone jack well we got rid of it because the futures wireless and it also [TS]

  solves the how do I listen to music while i charge my phone problem which is [TS]

  a real problem i mean and i'm dying the solution is you discharge the other [TS]

  device that you were on your head at the seat [TS]

  well how would you do that no you're right maybe the solution is you know [TS]

  either way ship and kind of pass through adapter which would be pretty clunky [TS]

  Wright or or you know you just use bluetooth and when using bluetooth the [TS]

  iphone it is my concern with the better level of your headphones that's your [TS]

  problem it [TS]

  yeah and it does seem it seems we're doing i have to admit i mean this is one [TS]

  of these things ever since the things started I don't see how they're going to [TS]

  sell this and that you know what's the story going to be because I totally [TS]

  acknowledged i guess--i Jonas doing it all the time where he's got like an iPad [TS]

  it three percent and he's charging it while he's still listening to the [TS]

  YouTube stuff that is on it while he plays the PlayStation I totally [TS]

  recognize that I know a lots and lots of people do they do it on airplanes if [TS]

  you're lucky enough to fly on an airline that has you know USB or power adapters [TS]

  people charge their phone while they listen to music on the flight [TS]

  I know people do it at their desks people will charge their phone while [TS]

  they're listening to music on it you know it's it i understand it and I don't [TS]

  if there's just one lightning port and of course they're not going to put to [TS]

  lighting ports on the thing not how do you listen with lightning headphones I [TS]

  mean and that's the one idea that people were kicking around when the rumors were [TS]

  that the the new iphones we're going to have the smarts connector type thing on [TS]

  the back that maybe they really like a Apple watch style magnetic charger but I [TS]

  know it doesn't seem right now it's just like you know we already got like you [TS]

  know the as a as a ship more and more other things that charge by lightning [TS]

  it's pretty clear like that we have now a world where lightning is like the [TS]

  universal apple charger for all apple products except the watch annoyingly but [TS]

  everything else it's like everything charges by lightning and i don't i don't [TS]

  see them throwing that away so soon yeah the pencil charge [TS]

  is by it the the rumored that I forget if if somebody just pulled this out of [TS]

  their ass or if it was a real leak that the air pods would have liked a little [TS]

  some kind of little lightning thing that comes out or goes I don't know bluetooth [TS]

  I I'm lucky that i don't i don't actually use earbuds or in your monitors [TS]

  that I I just can't wear them like pain while I can't wear them [TS]

  bluetooth is you know it's annoying for full-size headphones but it's not that [TS]

  bad [TS]

  bluetooth for ear buds has a whole bunch of challenges like well where do you put [TS]

  the battery and how do they connect to each other and like there's all sorts of [TS]

  like weird hacks that people have devised like well you have this like [TS]

  thing behind your neck or something you know that there is always some some kind [TS]

  of trick but it's tricky to get bluetooth them to you into earbuds in a [TS]

  way that doesn't suck but you know overall like Bluetooth like moving [TS]

  toward the water bluetooth headphones you know it's in so many ways it's worse [TS]

  like the number-one problem is of course this is one more thing you have to [TS]

  charge and if you're traveling that might mean one more cable to bring or [TS]

  something and one more battery that could just diet inopportune times and it [TS]

  just kind of annoying they're also they tend to be substantially more expensive [TS]

  than other headphones of similar you know quality attributes and it bluetooth [TS]

  is slightly unreliable like it works most of the time but like every time I'm [TS]

  walking with my with my bluetooth the being a little portable headphones for [TS]

  walking listen to podcast every time I have like a little clip out of the audio [TS]

  during some part of the walk if I like turn if I like put my hand in the wrong [TS]

  spot like in my pocket or something like it like blocks the signal just enough to [TS]

  tell can't quite make it a little static and I gotta move my hand like and I've [TS]

  tested so many pairs of bluetooth headphones they all have that problem [TS]

  like it so it's always some of them are better than others but they all have [TS]

  that problem to some degree and it is the big problem of using whatever [TS]

  headphones you come up with bluetooth and lightning this would actually be [TS]

  substantially worse using the same headphones for multiple devices so [TS]

  suppose like like what I want when I want a plain i'm always switching my [TS]

  headphones to whatever device i'm using so if we're like you know taking off or [TS]

  whatever i'm going to try to sleep i'll have my phone in my pocket but then it [TS]

  might take out my laptop or iPad to try to get something done on the tray i'm [TS]

  going to put your headphones to that and [TS]

  it and you know a lot of people they use the same headphones between work and [TS]

  home at their computer or a Tory to work an ipod like excuse me iphones ipods are [TS]

  ancient [TS]

  so you know with bluetooth like because of Bluetooth you know pairing everything [TS]

  it's just such a pain to share bluetooth headphones between multiple devices [TS]

  yeah that's in practice nobody really does it like you can place a good some [TS]

  of them have like a multiple pairing memory but if they're always weird and [TS]

  hard to use and it's effectively bluetooth headphones you know in [TS]

  practice they just kind of get locked to their primary device so nobody ever [TS]

  really change this with that sucks Lightning would be even worse because [TS]

  yes you could you could stop light in between like your iPhone your iPad but [TS]

  then you what you do when you go to your Mac like you can't plug let your [TS]

  lightning happens in your mac and that seems crazy I mean ice threw it out [TS]

  there as a spitball this week that what if that's the reason the macbook pros [TS]

  are being delayed because they're gonna put a lightning port I'm just so that [TS]

  you can plug your headphones in [TS]

  but but he doesn't you know in every other way other than the idea that i [TS]

  would like to be able to use the headphones same headphones with my [TS]

  iPhone and my mac which is a very reasonable desire [TS]

  other than that it doesn't make any sense to put a lightning port on a Mac [TS]

  but I don't you know I I'd I don't know maybe I don't mean it doesn't seem I [TS]

  wouldn't I wouldn't faint if that was announced but it doesn't seem right [TS]

  again [TS]

  the only thing that really makes sense bluetooth but like you said bluetooth [TS]

  sharing between devices is really weird you gotta like it's just like click [TS]

  click click or tap tap [TS]

  you know settings Bluetooth unpair type this creates just yeah it's it's it's [TS]

  crappy and like and on the Android side they have this whole NFC system to to [TS]

  make pairing faster and easier it's possible Apple could add that to the [TS]

  iphone they already have the NFC antenna for a play at it I don't know much about [TS]

  NFC but it's probably the same antenna so it's possibly do something like that [TS]

  but honestly i don't see that I don't know it's hard to beat the the the [TS]

  pairing process of headphones as we know them [TS]

  yeah just like him in like when it clearly like yeah and then if you want [TS]

  to you know if you want to all of a sudden have the headphones be playing [TS]

  output from a different device you know you do you just [TS]

  plug it and you plug the other device and because they all the same port like [TS]

  even the macbook one has no other ports except it has a headphone port [TS]

  ok that's like--that's the wall besides the USBC that's like that's like the one [TS]

  other port they deemed worthy of including my computer was an important [TS]

  like that that just kind of shows like how ubiquitous and an important and how [TS]

  compelling it is for the support to get into to continue to exist like so it [TS]

  ultimately though like if this thing about the iphone is true i think the [TS]

  world of lightning headphones is generally terrible a terrible idea and [TS]

  is probably not going to be very healthy nobody maybe probably going to be mostly [TS]

  adapters to regular headphones or Bluetooth maybe though it'll kickstart [TS]

  because no it hasn't taken off to date because why why would you bother getting [TS]

  lightning headphones when you can get a regular headphone jack headphones that [TS]

  are you know have the same audio quality and they're cheaper right by the way i [TS]

  should point out too i love i love this so much [TS]

  the headphones that are pictured and every article about lighting headphones [TS]

  on the verge are the odds al8 titanium or platinum or something there eight [TS]

  hundred dollars and they sound terrible [TS]

  just just putting that out there they look really cool and we're gonna have [TS]

  lots of lightning headphones that look really cool and cost a lot of money but [TS]

  hopefully it'll sound better than the yellow heat sorry Jose I'm know there's [TS]

  one sponsor I'm never gonna get let's dispel the notion that may be made I've [TS]

  seen this kicked around and i think is total nonsense never gonna happen is [TS]

  that the solution is one of the problems people have lighting the idea of using [TS]

  lightning as the port for wired headphones is that now you're stuck with [TS]

  an apple proprietary solution that has to get a licensing fee has to meet [TS]

  apples approval and therefore has to be more expensive than it would be [TS]

  otherwise because whatever the licensing fee is its if it's even a penny that [TS]

  means that thing's gonna cost a penny more [TS]

  it's and it's not going to be a penny right well but the idea of people I've [TS]

  seen kicking about is well okay well if a headphone port it should be open and [TS]

  everybody likes having an open standard why not us bc maybe that's the idea that [TS]

  the iphone switch to us bc and guess what [TS]

  headphone port aside the iphone [TS]

  is not going to switch to us bc there's no chance of that no chance first of all [TS]

  it's thicker the lining right then that alone is a deal breaker and i'll put it [TS]

  in the show notes hopefully but there's not a good link to somebody did like a [TS]

  really nice precise diagram showing just how much thicker it is and it actually [TS]

  would be pretty close to a gating factor already on the iphone 6 and everybody [TS]

  knows a place to make devices thinner overtime so yeah like when you just [TS]

  eyeball them side-by-side you can say oh yeah they're like more or less the same [TS]

  but when you get right down to it and start measuring the you know tenths of a [TS]

  millimeter it's it's too big of a difference [TS]

  yeah definitely and it strategically apple is not going to give up their [TS]

  proprietary port that they've had on the iphone all along for a non-proprietary [TS]

  port just that they can have a quote-unquote open headphones [TS]

  yeah and then they couldn't possibly care less so yeah I mean and and the the [TS]

  be cost increase I mean headphones already especially you know especially [TS]

  headphones that are targeted at smartphone use and there would be kind [TS]

  of we sold an apple store like the price of the headphone has so little to do [TS]

  with the cost of its components in this market that that would not like the cost [TS]

  of FI certification would probably not be the reason why this headphone cost a [TS]

  lot right [TS]

  these headphones cost a lot because they know their song into a premium market [TS]

  that's based mostly on brand recognition and being sold a high-end retail store [TS]

  like that is why that is why these headphones cost what they do lighting [TS]

  headphones will be expensive but it won't be because of the raw component [TS]

  costs increase it will be because everything else about them so that's [TS]

  that's that you know ultimately like I really do believe that we are heading [TS]

  towards a world of Apple pushing up you know it assuming this is true the real [TS]

  push is going to be towards polluted it's not gonna be towards the new [TS]

  cabling standards going to be bluetooth because that again we're already moving [TS]

  there so much because the reality is like as you use it like look i have a [TS]

  whole closet and a couple of drawers full of way better headphones that my [TS]

  little bluetooth walking pair and yet little blue the walking pair is the 1i [TS]

  am using most often with my iphone [TS]

  because even though it is worse in so many different ways it's more [TS]

  complicated it's more expensive needs to be charged [TS]

  it's a little bit flaky with that connection when i move my hand worse it [TS]

  sounds worse like the sound quality is worth so much about it is worse [TS]

  however it is more compelling and if you look at like it you know worse but more [TS]

  compelling is like the theme of modern computing advances so many things we [TS]

  have no just it we have given up reliability simplicity openness cost so [TS]

  you know something like good hatcheries we've given those up for a new thing [TS]

  that is just you know a nicer in some way or I wanted more or it's just more [TS]

  compelling for some reason and that's how thats why i like I don't know [TS]

  anybody who has who has started using bluetooth headphones and then ever [TS]

  wanted to use wired headphones again it's like Wi-Fi vs ethernet worse but [TS]

  more compelling that's exactly in the early years of a Wi-Fi and Wi-Fi now is [TS]

  pretty decent [TS]

  it was really not so if you're currently here but a speed difference was really [TS]

  really dramatic in the early years [TS]

  yeah you didn't even need to have a terrific internet connection and you [TS]

  could easily set your Wi-Fi connection and the ethernet would be the other way [TS]

  around like you couldn't you couldn't buy a internet connection that would [TS]

  saturate you know even under base-t yeah you know you have bluetooth will with [TS]

  whatever argument we can have about the headphone jack now like it will be worse [TS]

  not having it it will suck not having it sometimes for some people be more than [TS]

  sometimes but in general like we are better off if we can keep it but in [TS]

  general the market is moving towards bluetooth headphones and it is worse and [TS]

  that's okay what about latency is one thing that bothers me and I'm one of [TS]

  those weirdos I realized it's like I tell people this and they look at me and [TS]

  they had think I'm joking but i generally run with the key clicks on [TS]

  like yeah i'm typing on the iphone keyboard i like to hear the clicks but i [TS]

  can't every night I just the cognitive trying to trying to make sense of the [TS]

  lag when I have bluetooth headphones on if I can possible [TS]

  also I mean it's hard it's hard to also ignore the fact that some pretty common [TS]

  task for people do on phones include watching videos and playing games and [TS]

  put the hoods really suck if there's noticeable audio latency yeah the video [TS]

  problem they seem to have solved [TS]

  they seem I don't notice any kind of lip sync problem you know that's really when [TS]

  you can tell with audios off it looks like lips aren't moving in sync when [TS]

  they've done something where I think that they they can you know let's sort [TS]

  of like what federighi was saying with the speed of light calculations with the [TS]

  onstage last week he said yeah where they can tell just how close the watches [TS]

  to the macbook that's being unlocked with that new feature I they do [TS]

  something where the video is lags by the exact same amount that the audio has to [TS]

  like because of Bluetooth it's instinct but games are are like the keyboard like [TS]

  you know all the beeps and Boop's and blocks or a half second behind you know [TS]

  but ultimately i think what's going to happen is we're going to deal with that [TS]

  because like I mean one thing is like I learned my tried to buy wireless digital [TS]

  microphones for for our recording this year at WTC and that failed miserably on [TS]

  if you're transmitting audio wirelessly if you're doing it in like a pure analog [TS]

  sense like the way you know old cordless mics work and a lot of old cordless [TS]

  phones worked you know analog suction a lot of ways you pick up static and [TS]

  everything but analog is basically latency free if you're doing it [TS]

  digitally with a bluetooth is doing having no transmitting audio digitally [TS]

  wirelessly from some device in your hand to headphones on your head and then [TS]

  having those headphones and convert the audio digitally into the analog sound [TS]

  just because of the nature of digital transmission of the other like buffers [TS]

  in different places and everything [TS]

  there's always going to be some degree of latency and even the best latency [TS]

  like even the lowest we've managed to get it as an industry is still [TS]

  noticeable for things like lip-syncing lining up and and for you know there's [TS]

  and that's like the best of most of what you're getting included in bluetooth [TS]

  headphones is not top-notch equipment you know it's it's not like the best of [TS]

  the best its consumer grade no cheapo stuff and so you're never going to get [TS]

  digital transmission of sound from a phone to your head [TS]

  phones that that is latency free it's we i don't think we know how to do that as [TS]

  a science right so it i think this is gonna be one of those things where it's [TS]

  just always going to be worse and we will just as a as a society we will just [TS]

  move to well I guess we just won't play games with headphones on [TS]

  well I guess we just won't will turn off our keyboards sounds or something right [TS]

  because again like the advantages like once you get used to using bluetooth [TS]

  headphones using a wire feels barbaric like it because I know the ice whenever [TS]

  I travel on a plane like my bluetooth one stuck on a plane because there's [TS]

  they're small they don't isolate so I usually bring a nicer pair of wire [TS]

  headphones for the point for planes and it just feels so weird to have this like [TS]

  wire going down my side into my pocket like once you're not used to that [TS]

  getting it again is crazy [TS]

  once I mean once I got used to having the the like track forward trackback [TS]

  volume controls on the earcup as buttons on my bluetooth pair rather than having [TS]

  the clicker they have all right click twice for 43 times for back you know and [TS]

  try to like once again once you get used to the convenience of it really is so [TS]

  much better that you tolerate all the crap about bluetooth [TS]

  yeah I i got them for running for listening to podcasts and then when you [TS]

  really just listening party yes while I run and the that the tethered is being [TS]

  tethered to the headphones always bothered me it did never once figured [TS]

  out i tried all sorts of stuff holding the phone an armband putting it on [TS]

  pocket i tried everything and no matter what that that the wire getting away [TS]

  that's why i bought it but then I this is like the 10 9 months ago something [TS]

  like that when I got these the beach once but the thing i noticed was over [TS]

  the winter [TS]

  how nice it was in East Coast winner when I could wear them all bundled up [TS]

  with a coat and still have my phone in the pocket because with a winter coat on [TS]

  and a hat the a fight that it did was just another type of mass having a [TS]

  table-and-chair like snake it through different layers yeah exactly like sneak [TS]

  it through the button you know it's almost like when you wire yourself up [TS]

  with a lab Mike exactly [TS]

  and then you know trying to get it out it's even worse [TS]

  alright there's no one last topic on the headphone thing and the end headphone [TS]

  port being gone [TS]

  yeah that i have in my notes is the waterproofing angle [TS]

  see that's that's kind of a bad one because like there are already phones [TS]

  out there that other people make that have headphone ports and are waterproof [TS]

  and that's it [TS]

  I that's true i wonder i wonder if it would be purchased part of the story [TS]

  though it you know and then there's an angle where maybe it's a little bit of [TS]

  BS because hey well okay you're saying that the phone is water-resistant now [TS]

  and one of the reasons you got rid of this ancient you know headphone port but [TS]

  there's these other phones that are water-resistant and they have it though [TS]

  did the other phones that have it did they make you plug it up with like a [TS]

  little rubber cover or they just like nope you can just know i don't know i [TS]

  think that the US soon ever seen an android phone [TS]

  well there's a funny commercial it's it's so it's obnoxious but there's like [TS]

  a funny commercial for series of commercials for samsung where there's a [TS]

  guy who's i think i'm supposed to know who he is [TS]

  I think he's like a rap star but I don't know who he is and he's he's got a new [TS]

  samsung whatever top-of-the-line galaxy edge or whatever and he's just pouring [TS]

  champagne on it and he comes into a convenience store and he asked the guy [TS]

  if he's pouring champagne on his house phone while he comes into the store and [TS]

  he says to get you nowhere champagne and the guys points back there and bottles [TS]

  empty and he throws it away and he goes by a new bottle of champagne pop the [TS]

  cork and just starts pouring pouring it on his phone again and that's the end of [TS]

  the commercial i laughed because our company that it is but it is such an egg [TS]

  obnoxious commercial ever forget that i can you even imagine of apple had a [TS]

  commercial that was that just showed some somebody of you know wasting two [TS]

  bottles of champagne to pour on their phone but i can only presume that the [TS]

  samsung one must be waterproof with the headphone yeah i think it is yeah i'm [TS]

  from overriding the details but I i knows these fun exist right so like is [TS]

  that you know it [TS]

  there are reasons that Apple could say on stage to do why they did this but [TS]

  like if you look down the list of reasons why they might do this you know [TS]

  the the better audio [TS]

  a you know the thickness the waterproofing like all these are not [TS]

  strong reasons because it either they are totally unnecessary or like there's [TS]

  there's enough ways around that are enough astronaut that it's not really [TS]

  that valid so I you know if you look at like there are some similar reasons why [TS]

  Apple want to do this i mean they would stand to make more money they would save [TS]

  a component costs they would save on warranty repair stuff when I have to [TS]

  pull it out of people headphone jacks and fix the ones a jamup it was by the [TS]

  way again is also a problem loading ports and so like you know that there [TS]

  are lots of reasons why Apple want to do this i mean it would it would cause a [TS]

  wave of headphone upgrades and apple sells a lot of their own headphones with [TS]

  their name and beats his name on them [TS]

  in addition many of those headphones upgrades would apply at the [TS]

  point-of-sale when you buy your iphone hey why don't also treat yourself to it [TS]

  to this 200r pair of beats because you're going to do half of this phone so [TS]

  that would help their attachment sale rate with self new iPhones it's like [TS]

  apple with Santa make quite a lot of additional money by doing this I hope [TS]

  that's not the reason that probably isn't the reason but I bet that's a [TS]

  reason [TS]

  what if they do ship a pair of white in your just pods with the phone you just [TS]

  get them with the phone wireless bluetooth things that come with the [TS]

  phone but then they also have a whole lineup of new beat stuff ready to go [TS]

  like the upsell is for guys its that's possible but i think it's very unlikely [TS]

  i think it's way more like we said earlier that what you get in the box is [TS]

  either nothing like maybe they may be able to decide you know what we don't [TS]

  need to ship had one in the box anymore you can buy anything just what we're [TS]

  doing you a favor offering the choice [TS]

  alright so maybe that's the angle or more likely they ship wired lightning [TS]

  headphones of the box and just just a wire lighting version of the ones they [TS]

  ship now that that's way more likely i think and and you know and it's possible [TS]

  that like the way the way that what's that Japanese rumor site like a Couture [TS]

  so i don't know i don't have pronounced Japanese words it's it i will just [TS]

  embarrass myself unfortunately but like they reported months ago we first talked [TS]

  about this that the next iPhone would have like a special like some extra pins [TS]

  on the line on lightning port and special circuitry inside there [TS]

  she send analog audio out over the port to be able to power passive devices that [TS]

  don't have a built-in deck a nap and that would be how the next chief apple [TS]

  earbuds wouldn't would receive the audio lakes is so it's physically over the [TS]

  Lightning port but they're receiving analog audio that seems very plausible [TS]

  to me I said it even back then like that is that sounds extremely likely to be [TS]

  how they solve this problem for their own earbuds and and if they wanted to [TS]

  offer a dongle they could do one very cheaply and it could be a very simple [TS]

  device if they have that kind of setup [TS]

  yes that sounds possible and that's one of the reasons I've seen people toss out [TS]

  a maybe they'll switch the iphone the USBC because i think part of the [TS]

  official USBC sits back is analog audio pass through on one of the pins or [TS]

  something like that I could be wrong but probably in lightning doesn't have that [TS]

  but the difference is that Apple can change lightning whenever it wants to [TS]

  exactly and physics and they can so they can so easily say like well you know we [TS]

  didn't need this part of the Lightning port on any previous phone because they [TS]

  all have headphone jacks that this one we've we've helped everyone out so i [TS]

  think to me I think I guess my my final four now comment on on the headphone [TS]

  jack thing is like is there any reason i can come up with [TS]

  why this would be a positive thing for customers is obviously good for Apple [TS]

  why is good for customers and I can come up with one reason and that would be if [TS]

  they replaced the space used by the headphone jack with another speaker and [TS]

  if they if by doing this they can dramatically improve the quality of the [TS]

  built-in speaker output of the iphone because as I learn more about how people [TS]

  use iphone if you look like so I i do my own analytics and overcast of like what [TS]

  is the current output device type and the the Audio API is pretty coarse grain [TS]

  on that but it can tell you whether its internal speaker or wire headphones or [TS]

  bluetooth or airplay and that helps you figure out like UK you know well what [TS]

  kind of features to work on next day so that's one of the reasons why did the [TS]

  the speaker optimized voice boost in in a recent version because I learned that [TS]

  tons of people use the iphone built-in speaker and I always have but I thought [TS]

  I was just like you know a weird freak work at home I didn't know anyone else [TS]

  did but it turns out tons of people you [TS]

  the iphone speaker all the time even though its large your battery doesn't [TS]

  matter [TS]

  everyone does it anyway and a lot of people do like in cars to play music [TS]

  from their phone in the car that they don't have a better connection to a lot [TS]

  of people do it around the house [TS]

  I mean it's just it's so common so that's one of the reasons why I ended up [TS]

  buying the new baby pro the new 9.7 inch iPad because it sounds so sad [TS]

  oh my god it's night and day I mean it's unbelievable and like I use it as a [TS]

  kitchen speaker most of the time you know plus a couch ipad and oh my god [TS]

  it's massively different so what if they were able to do a large improvement to [TS]

  the internal speaker of the iphone by replacing the headphone jack with a [TS]

  second speaker now like I like your thinking that sounds that sounds [TS]

  compelling to me the only my only no hesitation on that is that the reason [TS]

  they will do with the ipad is you know when you look at like how you're [TS]

  allocating space inside of a computing device these days these mobile modern [TS]

  ultra-thin awesome devices you like to think oh well you know figure out what [TS]

  component fill the space with battery [TS]

  the problem is batteries are really heavy so my theory is that you know we [TS]

  you know we we talk about Apple pushing everything to be super thin everything [TS]

  and in some ways that goes too far like the map one keyboard but i think what [TS]

  they really are doing is they're trying to target weight goal and the weight [TS]

  goal is limited by how much how much battery you're willing to carry how much [TS]

  like how much battery willing to devote wait to and then you can just kind of [TS]

  shrink the enclosure around that and I what's the smallest enclosure we can [TS]

  make that fit only this amount of battery and nothing else [TS]

  you know and with the ipad they've they've kind of reached this point where [TS]

  will the enclosure is thin flat thing and they basically can't make it a lot [TS]

  thinner and keeping the same a battery and still have it be a flat back like [TS]

  they have to like kind of make it like a bulge with a battery sticks out kinda [TS]

  like the battery casing for the phone or you know something like that that would [TS]

  look dumb so that basically with the ipad they because of this like battery [TS]

  wait trade-off been having a lot of extra space in the case so they spend [TS]

  that extra space on big speaker cavities to like to like tunnel the sound and [TS]

  make it sound better and everything [TS]

  on the phone they don't have that kind of volume to spare so they might get [TS]

  some of it with the headphone jack removal and that might be enough to just [TS]

  basically like double speaker we have now which would help that would be nice [TS]

  but in order to make a really big improvement [TS]

  I feel like they would have to do like a like one of those four speakers that [TS]

  they have an iPad or like have any phones on that probably some android [TS]

  phones on that like to have like a speaker on every corner basically [TS]

  instead haha don't i don't think they would have to do that because I think [TS]

  everybody holds the phone [TS]

  although I guess when you watch the video it's always it is a little weird [TS]

  that that's sounds only coming out yes I mean I don't think if they did that it [TS]

  would be great but I just don't have enough space I think I don't be havin a [TS]

  free volume inside the phone to do that and it also raises the question of the [TS]

  the idea of the notion of hey let's make the speaker's bottom let's use the space [TS]

  on the bottom for the speakers and do it on both sides you have stereo well then [TS]

  why'd why not put this headphone back at the top where it used to be four years [TS]

  and four hit yes I mean I don't think I get the Mighty Mite most plausible most [TS]

  optimistic version of this it well first of all my most optimistic version is the [TS]

  headphone jack doesn't go away but if it's gonna go away my most optimistic [TS]

  version of this that is plausible is that they're going to put a second [TS]

  speaker there that's roughly as good as when we have now or maybe a little bit [TS]

  better and that will that will still be a big improvement of speaker but not as [TS]

  big of an improvement as we have in the ipad enjoy that there's 300,000 people [TS]

  have signed a petition not to do this [TS]

  really yeah haha that'll help [TS]

  well it's already done it if you don't think it's too late it's already done [TS]

  it's getting to the point where I think it's too late to change next year's [TS]

  iPhone little on this year's like many people people do not understand like [TS]

  this is how Apple's ships 70 million iphones in the first quarter it's [TS]

  because it's the the production ramp-up is months in advance [TS]

  yeah they're probably already being manufactured right now it is at this [TS]

  year's model all this speculation it is still I'm damn curious to hear it here [TS]

  and tell me why I I can't wait [TS]

  but I do know that and again they could make mistakes Apple does making a big [TS]

  mistake sometimes and this could be one but in general the company has a very [TS]

  strong [TS]

  I don't know what you would call it like a rule but just a policy just the way [TS]

  they work is they don't make changes for changes sake they only make changes if [TS]

  the change is for the better [TS]

  now the question is better for home you know I mean that's and sometimes changes [TS]

  or what's better for Apple but I would maybe argue the force touch trackpad all [TS]

  the computers that aren't the macbook one where the thinnest isn't necessary [TS]

  is a maybe on the wrong side of that but I can I just tell you we disagree on [TS]

  that because I i have my my regular 13-inch macbook pro has the old [TS]

  physically clicky one I love the force touch one I liked it so much that I [TS]

  always almost it would be such a waste of money but I almost want to get a new [TS]

  macbook pro just to get the Quidditch practice I like it that much better [TS]

  I will and I will say though that the one on the 13-inch macbook pro which [TS]

  could be that I guess when you probably be getting without question this one of [TS]

  the beginning [TS]

  yeah that one is the best one that I felt like it like that it won't realize [TS]

  that every 4-6 trackpad feel a little bit different because they're all like [TS]

  different sizes slightly different components i think the one of the [TS]

  macbook one is the worst it is it's I mean just like everything from a pecan [TS]

  it's like you know horrible for input but really great for portability it's [TS]

  fine [TS]

  the the desktop one which actually have 1i use it as my left hand pointing thing [TS]

  for like when I'm scrubbing through logic project on editing podcast the [TS]

  desktop one is decent the 15-inch one is decent the 13-inch macbook pro one is [TS]

  actually pretty good i would none of them i would call great but the 13-inch [TS]

  macbook pro i think i would say feels the best but honestly I i dislike the [TS]

  force touch so much that I'm just converting myself to be a tap to click [TS]

  person which I hate but I hate it less anything else on the headphone port i [TS]

  think that's it right that we're not going to make this two-hour mark because [TS]

  we just crossed we just crossed yet does that I have another speaker to think it [TS]

  is our new speaker sponsor a new our sponsor sorry i'd love to get a new [TS]

  speaker this we get into speakers speakers undermine our new sponsor is [TS]

  ministry of supply as humans we sweat [TS]

  alright everybody does nobody talks about it but you sweat [TS]

  well here's the thing very rarely does sweating take place at convenient times [TS]

  gym clothes can handle it but the clothes we wear to work or at least that [TS]

  most people wear to work AKA a majority of the day everyday do nothing to help [TS]

  their stiff and restricting and only add to the problem they make you sweaty more [TS]

  ministry supply has set out to fix this [TS]

  their brand combines performance technology and Taylor designed to make [TS]

  men's work where that's actually comfortable and capable so it's like [TS]

  they're taking the fabrics and technology of modern gym wear and [TS]

  applying it to work where they have something for example they have [TS]

  something called The Aviator to suit whole suit it's so stretchy and [TS]

  breathable breathable that people have actually run marathons in it that sounds [TS]

  goofy to me but it's an example of just how just how stretchable comfortable [TS]

  their clothes are there co-founder set the Guinness Book of World Records for [TS]

  the fastest half marathon run in a suit that was wearing aviator to here's [TS]

  another example the Apollo dress shirt [TS]

  it has NASA invented fibers that regulate body temperature based on your [TS]

  surroundings will keep you warm when it's cool it'll keep you cool when the [TS]

  storm really really great stuff very very stylish checked out the website [TS]

  this is all sorts of great stuff very very cool clothes and it's all machine [TS]

  washable [TS]

  you're no longer a slave to the dry cleaner you have to take everything to [TS]

  get dry cleaned and ironed whatever you can just throw it right in the washing [TS]

  machine like regular clothes so where do you go to find out more advanced [TS]

  technology great fibers great comfort combined with really really great [TS]

  stylish very cool clothes go to Ministry of / talk show Ministry of [TS]

  supplies . com / talk show and remember that use that URL or just remember the [TS]

  code talk show and you will save fifteen percent off your first purchase they [TS]

  even have retail stores in Boston and San Francisco and coming soon [TS]

  Washington DC so if you're in boston or San Francisco or [TS]

  soon washington DC you can just go to the retail store and check them out and [TS]

  if you mention the podcast code they're just mention the code talk show you'll [TS]

  say fifteen percent off right in the store so my thanks to Ministry of supply [TS]

  brand new sponsor go check them out get some new clothes [TS]

  what else is on our agenda before we start off we're almost done right and [TS]

  they're only 45 more topics that you had that were giant like the entire [TS]

  conference or whole platforms like iOS and watch it wasn't evo as you know what [TS]

  the watch us thing is so fascinating to me because i just linked to a thing [TS]

  today where David Sparkes so the the the hiccup with upgrading to watch us three [TS]

  i would if i could just upgrade my watch to watch three i would do in a heartbeat [TS]

  because I'm it i don't really have so many issues with watch us to that watch [TS]

  us three exactly tackles I would betas and all and I you know if my watch get [TS]

  stuck it gets stuck or whatever that's why I could totally live with that but [TS]

  the problem is you can upgrade to watch us three unless the Paradise phone you [TS]

  have it with his upgraded to iOS 10 and I understand why that is it makes a lot [TS]

  of sense but I am definitely not ready to upgrade my daily iphone to iOS 10 and [TS]

  probably won't be until later in the summer [TS]

  yeah i mean like typically like I think 44 regular people the the best advice is [TS]

  just don't use the beta's but if you insist on using the beta's you know [TS]

  wait until at least like public beta 2 or so and 44 like people who want to [TS]

  write about it and talk about it or developers I think a good rule of thumb [TS]

  is roughly beta three of the developer side which roughly correlates to beta-1a [TS]

  public side right and summer just is like the worst time of year for me to [TS]

  like take risks with my phone because like a traveler we're traveling going on [TS]

  vacation vacations and just going away for weekend to see family and stuff we [TS]

  just are out more and so I rely on my phone [TS]

  more in the summer than any other time like if it was like time shifted by six [TS]

  months and we got like the beta's in September I probably put it on my own [TS]

  still put the first one on but i definitely would wait and listen to what [TS]

  everybody says about developer beta 2 and probably go from there [TS]

  but I can't do it in the summer but anyway David Sparkes bravely did [TS]

  and I really just had nothin you know it it it's true i mean effectively what [TS]

  Apple said in the keynote because i was really skeptical honestly watching the [TS]

  keynote [TS]

  oh I think we all were I mean like super skeptical to the point where I i was [TS]

  sitting with ben thompson and I was like if he's full of shit this is gonna be so [TS]

  much worse like but you know I got to play with them in hands-on and they were [TS]

  is every bit as fast as promised and now that people brave people in the real [TS]

  world are trying it there they can vary vouch that what Apple said is true that [TS]

  it has enough ram to keep you know half a dozen apps suspended in memory which [TS]

  makes them instantly know when you switch back to them they there right [TS]

  there instantly and the background updates this is why it requires iOS 10 [TS]

  on your paradise fun the background updates really do update in the [TS]

  background [TS]

  yeah and like it's you like there was a lot of things that you still can't do [TS]

  like a real time or the like there's a lot of that there's a lot of limits unit [TS]

  to conserve power and stuff but it's substantially different and way better [TS]

  than how it was before and I mean I by the way like you know to help you know [TS]

  people don't feel too i think they can't run this yet you know where they [TS]

  shouldn't run this shit on their main phone and watch like keep in mind a lot [TS]

  of these benefits [TS]

  you're not really gonna see as a user until the apps can be updated for which [TS]

  can happen until the release [TS]

  yeah so like you know you can have like your doc full of like apples apps but [TS]

  you're not going to have any of those benefits for third-party apps unless [TS]

  you're like on on their beta maybe but I don't even know if we can send out [TS]

  test flight bills for iOS 10 you don't even know I don't know either but it's [TS]

  gonna be a while if we can like it's gonna be probably on the summer that [TS]

  when it happens and then you know any app you're not in the beta for you [TS]

  literally can't use the watch is three you know enhancement to that app until [TS]

  like october when everything whatever has released its at a zoom out at a high [TS]

  level it's interesting to me and a couple of ways and one is that [TS]

  especially with iOS and watch us is a variant of iOS so i think it qualifies [TS]

  Apple has four years have been the knock against it [TS]

  that older devices upgraded to the new OS instantly gets lower to the point [TS]

  where you know there was the Catherine ramble article in the new york times of [TS]

  all places that was accusing him of doing it deliberately did spur upgrade [TS]

  sales [TS]

  I mean that's something people believe and they're essentially come downhill [TS]

  recently asked for some for some people you know there are you know and and some [TS]

  of that is actually true i don't think it was ever deliberate [TS]

  I really don't it's it's antithetical doubt now that most of the people i know [TS]

  that Apple who are engineers if they were told to do something like that they [TS]

  would quit they would actually quit their jobs rather than purposely making [TS]

  upgrade run slower on a certain device [TS]

  the problem is more that they didn't spend enough time optimizing it because [TS]

  that everybody was working on the new version of iOS was using the latest and [TS]

  greatest hardware and then like at the end in sight will quick try to make this [TS]

  run [TS]

  run [TS]

  asked on an ipad mini 2 as it's like turn off some stuff but yeah did I don't [TS]

  know dial down the animation I don't know [TS]

  well it's time to ship here it is i don't think was purposeful I really [TS]

  don't but it was true that there have been versions of iOS that come out for [TS]

  older devices and it does make them slow and it's so funny that with this one it [TS]

  is going to make your year old watch faster and once way faster right like [TS]

  noticeably faster like it i did haven't spent a day using it because i don't [TS]

  have you know yeah but in the hands-on area for the president that I got to [TS]

  play with it you know it really feels like it a new hardware it's really kind [TS]

  of hard to believe that this is the same hardware as the old one [TS]

  yeah i got to everybody see I got to play with it with underscore David [TS]

  Smith's watch friend of a friend of the show my friend of david smith and [TS]

  because you know because he's a big watching west developer here is good you [TS]

  know a bunch of watch apps and so he had of course because he's incredibly [TS]

  productive and embarrasses all of us he had already built like to his apps for [TS]

  the watch and like already had the complication stoneham like so he was [TS]

  showing me this is like I'm like tuesday or wednesday but if UDC like an amazing [TS]

  time and it's blows me away [TS]

  yea and NEA is applied to like play with that you show me on his on his of course [TS]

  you had to watch it a second one the beta on because he's he's amazing and it [TS]

  really is real like it like it wasn't just PR wasn't just a presentation like [TS]

  the games are really like it I I too was just get just as skeptical I was like [TS]

  I'll come on that's there's no way to get there faster reality and it really [TS]

  is a fascinating look it's not perfect like some of the animation still like [TS]

  you know skip a little bit here and there you know it's it's still very slow [TS]

  hardware but it just seems like it was being it was being used very poorly in [TS]

  watch us one until I thought you know the harlots there it you know it's it's [TS]

  not as bad as it seemed [TS]

  it's still very slow and very rudimentary hardware but the software [TS]

  was seemingly making a lot of bad life choices before and now its writ they've [TS]

  really had a lot of all time and I mean you know I've been kind of [TS]

  cool on the watch in recent months and I don't really wear it anymore but this [TS]

  like this is a huge of this is a way bigger update I'm Way more impressed by [TS]

  it than I thought I would be with you know whatever watching us three turn out [TS]

  to be the summer I I was not expecting this big of an update and this big of a [TS]

  change and you know for them to to reconsider and rethink some of some of [TS]

  the design of the watch software environment and you need to get rid of [TS]

  the stupid friends for at least move it somewhere else and and to get rid of [TS]

  glances and to unify apps with glance of the weekend to make you know like all [TS]

  that stuff you know i-i've been thinking for a while like some of these things [TS]

  would be nice to do but they're not going to do it because they already [TS]

  built this whole thing it's too late and turns out it wasn't too late and they [TS]

  change their mind they saw how to have things were actually used and is always [TS]

  to make a better and that's great and as a developer of like I'm gonna I'm gonna [TS]

  make overcast for the watch [TS]

  you know at some point soon i don't know if i make it in time for day one but I'm [TS]

  gonna try because like my old watch app based on watch get one it was just [TS]

  terrible [TS]

  it was just too slow too unreliable and i didn't i didn't upgrade to watch us [TS]

  too because it was going to be a ton of work because it was watching us to was [TS]

  not too different for user but it was very different for developers so is good [TS]

  it was gonna be a ton of work to do and the games were not really there so I i [TS]

  decided not to do it and because wait and see what os3 brought have sure that [TS]

  i did because yeah os3 is a major major upgrade for users and developers and now [TS]

  it's possible to actually make decent absolute before even the best app you [TS]

  could make for watching us 12 it was pretty mediocre to actually use now it's [TS]

  actually possible to make good compelling apps for the watch and it's [TS]

  still not easy and there's still plenty of limitations but it's at least [TS]

  possible and there there's good stuff to be done there [TS]

  I can't think of anything else to compare to except maybe when Mac os10 [TS]

  first came out I know this predates you as a Mac user but Mac OS 10.0 was so [TS]

  dreadfully slow it was everything I mean like just clicking on a menu and having [TS]

  the menu drop-down was slow because it just it they were what aqua was doing [TS]

  what the user interface was doing was so far ahead of the hardware [TS]

  it was just slow and it was what made that so painful was one thing that was [TS]

  not a problem with the classic mac OS twas for lack of a better word [TS]

  snappiness the UI there were lots of technical problems with the old Mac OS [TS]

  but it was very snappy because and part of that was simply because it was so far [TS]

  behind the hardware because it was this OS you know the problems with the OS is [TS]

  that it was had a low-level parts that dated to the you know eighties and here [TS]

  we are running it on 2000-2001 power mac g4 three hardware the hardware was way [TS]

  more powerful than what the the software was originally designed for and I made [TS]

  it real fast and so you know most of us at the time were either dual booting [TS]

  between the two for different tasks or we had lie i used to run a mac OS 9 on [TS]

  my desktop and I'd have Mac os10 on my powerbook and it was so painful to [TS]

  switch and 10.1 came out like five months later six months later something [TS]

  like that like way less than a year later and was a pretty big improvement [TS]

  it was still slow but it did obviously gotten a lot of low-hanging fruit out of [TS]

  the what's making this feel so slow but it was nowhere near as dramatic is this [TS]

  watch is 223 it was you know it was a nice improvement but it was really like [TS]

  a series of iterative improvements over like four years like as i recall [TS]

  sometime around like 10.4 was when Mac os10 finally felt like okay this is may [TS]

  not be fast yet but it's at least not slow i I'm trying to figure out what [TS]

  what is going on with watching us three how is this possible [TS]

  I mean I think I think factories explanation last week on the talk show [TS]

  was was great which is like basically like many of the things that were making [TS]

  watch us so slow before were just like extreme conservatism about how you know [TS]

  how things are kept in memory [TS]

  how how what apps can do what they can do what kind of background operations [TS]

  that can and can't do [TS]

  that's one reason why they basically with watch us wanted to like every time [TS]

  you launch an app it was basically launching from scratch and it was not [TS]

  really able to do much if anything in the background in the meantime so you [TS]

  have to launch it that you have to wait for it to get new data because it [TS]

  it happens out of date and it was just it was just slow it was a pain and then [TS]

  you go and you try to launch it again like a few minutes later after the watch [TS]

  turned off to save power you can launch it again like a few minutes later or a [TS]

  few seconds later and you'll be back to the clock face for the home screen is to [TS]

  go back to the app again or double-click on the on the on the button to get the [TS]

  last used app or whatever and it was just it was way too aggressive about [TS]

  kicking out of memory and about researching what they could do in the [TS]

  background and so and better explain it very well it's basically like this which [TS]

  was basically like oh we had extra ram like we overshot our budget on manpower [TS]

  and turns out you know the way people use the watch is different and it works [TS]

  better than we thought it would for preparing for a manpower so we spent [TS]

  some of it so you know that you know the watch now like with us three if you if [TS]

  you use any of these new features of having this app in the dock and having [TS]

  them you know being updated more often especially put in complications and they [TS]

  cannot get a lot more often like you are going to get less battery life but i [TS]

  think they can you know like it when I wear the watch every day most days I go [TS]

  to bed and the battery be like fifty percent so I I you know I don't despair [TS]

  little battery life to make the thing more useful to me I this I thought I [TS]

  think that's all true and I again I think federal information was [TS]

  interesting and I think very honest you know I think that being stingy with [TS]

  rammus was you know probably very much true but strategically I here's my [TS]

  theory i think what we're seeing is that apple released the watch too early and [TS]

  that this is what they should have launched with and that the it the [TS]

  process that they went through of having what we we know as watch us one and then [TS]

  watch us to was what they should have done in the past usually went through [TS]

  internally before they got to okay this is good enough that they were probably [TS]

  like a version of the iphone that was every bit as crappy as the user [TS]

  experience of watching us one and maybe not even crappiness but maybe like the [TS]

  confusing nature of the the UI paradigm and add the convoluted pneus and like a [TS]

  there's like it they were like some yadda-yadda-yadda parts of it where [TS]

  there's no real special thing it's like well you'd write you know these glasses [TS]

  are down there and you [TS]

  drag him up and the apps are you know like behind the watch face you click [TS]

  this button and you get to the apps and then they pop forward and apps the [TS]

  glasses are sort of like a nap accept their limited but they're always there [TS]

  and so why are they down what's why is this everything underneath i feel like [TS]

  the everything probably goes through that and again any i have I always hate [TS]

  to bring out the you know Steve Jobs card but that one of his gifts was of [TS]

  course he was great at motivating people to work really hard and ship things [TS]

  ahead of their time but i also think that he had an uncanny ability to keep [TS]

  saying not good enough not good enough even if it meant shipping years after he [TS]

  wanted to ship [TS]

  yeah and you know and you know that you talked about earlier like with like you [TS]

  know Tim vs phil and everyone else for like product direction you know steve [TS]

  was the head of product direction you know he was like the chief editor and [TS]

  you know he he i think he played a large role in part in product choices and [TS]

  direction and you can't have somebody like that just removed and gone forever [TS]

  and have things not change like that things are going to change and not [TS]

  always gonna be for the better and a lot of its gonna be better at any worse i'm [TS]

  just gonna be different [TS]

  one of the things that changes like the role of like that product editing and [TS]

  product and the head of product direction has now apparently from what [TS]

  we can tell been kind of split up between the people and the watch [TS]

  understand the watch is kinda was kinda like a satellite project and it seemed [TS]

  they were there was a lot about the watch it was kind of bizarre like some [TS]

  other likes they're like the weird creepy like stretchy face emoji and the [TS]

  whole like friends [TS]

  the ring of friends you're supposed to like digitally touch i mean as the whole [TS]

  thing was weird and and and again like some of the special things and and why [TS]

  watchkit one was just so incredibly bad and i decided to shift that it does seem [TS]

  like that might have been partially because of this kind of split product [TS]

  responsibility this is kind of relegated a satellite project or a skunkworks kind [TS]

  of thing you know not maybe not because it was like considered low priority [TS]

  which is because it was like something new and everyone else is busy i don't [TS]

  know i don't know the reason but it was clearly something from like a side [TS]

  project division of Apple [TS]

  yeah and and it was kind it suffered a number of ways because of that and it [TS]

  seems like they've they've maybe realize like this was not as good as we wanted [TS]

  it to be at first so let's let's fix it let's put some more into it let's [TS]

  actually fix it i think that they would have gotten to this point inevitably I [TS]

  just think that it's almost like we've gotten an amazing behind-the-scenes look [TS]

  at how Apple goes through designs you know and and iterates and it's this [TS]

  makes so much more sense it just a basic fundamental level and it works so much [TS]

  better after remember too that two years ago so two years ago at this point the [TS]

  watch hadn't been announced yet it was announced in September two years ago but [TS]

  it was rumored and at the time Apple was under an ordinate scrutiny for Apple [TS]

  can't innovate anymore because Steve Jobs isn't there and they haven't had a [TS]

  new product since the ipod or ipad in 2010 and now it's been forever and [TS]

  they're overdue for products so they were under tremendous scrutiny for hey [TS]

  how about you release in something new and show us that you can still amazes us [TS]

  and I think part of that was pressure on Tim Cook the CEO and I think part of [TS]

  that was definitely pressure on Johnny I've as well let's see what Johnny I can [TS]

  do now that he doesn't have steve jobs and I ultimately we don't know who it is [TS]

  who got to say okay let's ship the watch this year we'll announce it in September [TS]

  and you know ship it sometime later probably next year I don't know who made [TS]

  that decision that this is good enough to ship but I think in hindsight [TS]

  especially now that we've seen watching us three it was clearly too soon i think [TS]

  that the watch should have been announced this year and I maybe I'm [TS]

  wrong because two more years of where's you know how about a new product how [TS]

  about a new product how about a new product maybe that would have been too [TS]

  much to bear but I just feel like this really feels to me like what watch one . [TS]

  should have been [TS]

  yeah no question I mean it's it there's it's still not perfect I mean nothing [TS]

  ever is really but it it is such an improvement and to have suction [TS]

  improvement you know after what is a relatively short time [TS]

  really i mean heck the hardware is feeling pretty old this point we can [TS]

  update that but [TS]

  but you know that they have this offer go from where it was last year to this [TS]

  in one year is very impressive and but you know on the other side of that like [TS]

  do you think they actually would have reached this conclusion internally like [TS]

  one of the things they can't do really internally is is learn what people will [TS]

  do what developers will do with like how many apps will you use what will apps [TS]

  want to do what Apple one being compelling which apps won't and they [TS]

  kind of can't do that very well without just releasing it and seeing what the at [TS]

  market and what the users actually do with it but there is a lot of stuff [TS]

  about like the initial release of the watch that you look at your like did [TS]

  they test this much personally like like did they really think this was gonna be [TS]

  good [TS]

  I don't know yeah some of the stuff that is in watch us three definitely wouldn't [TS]

  have been there if they hadn't launched and observe what people really use it [TS]

  for and a big one is fitness tracking that an awful lot of Apple watch [TS]

  purchasers I think maybe they told me in a briefing with the percentages but it's [TS]

  it's big [TS]

  I don't know if it's public enough but a big percentage that they have found if [TS]

  people buy it primarily as a fitness tracking device that it is just a [TS]

  one-to-one competitor with like a Fitbit or something like that and therefore [TS]

  they really really focused on the fitness and activity tracking in [TS]

  watching us 3i think that didn't the new default watch face it is the one that [TS]

  shows the circles as the dial [TS]

  I think that's how big of a deal fitness tracking is that it's it's now the [TS]

  default watch face and once I mean if it you know when i used it i was all about [TS]

  the fitness rings and I you know if I cared less about watch face design [TS]

  I would gladly say that is my home screen you know right now I'm just 2 i'm [TS]

  just too much of a picky jerk to you want to use that but but a but thats [TS]

  there too i mean there is in some ways apple is benefiting from you know the [TS]

  release early and often you know [TS]

  and especially in the way I think the other thing we're seeing and I think [TS]

  it's a I think it makes sense to me that software takes longer than hardware in [TS]

  some ways [TS]

  oh yeah easy especially like to design because it's e it's too nebulous there's [TS]

  too many it too much too many infinite possibilities [TS]

  it's the construct constraints of hardware like well look it has to look [TS]

  good [TS]

  Johnny's made this design it has two can't be any bigger than this it has to [TS]

  be this small so that there's like a model that people with smaller wrists [TS]

  and like women and children can wear without looking ridiculous and you know [TS]

  it's the screen the the most energy-efficient screen we have is going [TS]

  to consume this much power and you know take all these constraints and figure [TS]

  out what the best thing is is almost it makes it faster to come up with the [TS]

  design than the infinite possibilities of software [TS]

  yeah although to be fair I mean like you know they'd be attending as we're seeing [TS]

  the apple watch hardware get somewhat long in the tooth now if you look around [TS]

  the SmartWatch landscape you know it when the apple watch first came out the [TS]

  SmartWatch landscape looked pretty miserable that they were there was [TS]

  almost nothing else of value there was like on the low end you had pebble and [TS]

  terrible watches are are basically that you know the the modern-day geeks quartz [TS]

  watch so it's like you know it's it's not like that like you know high high [TS]

  fashion it's it's not particularly glamorous or even graceful or even you [TS]

  know necessarily even nice but it would serve a very useful purpose and it was [TS]

  like a great utility and it looks like it but it was price like it too and it [TS]

  was fine and you don't like it for them I route I don't like people have bought [TS]

  one and i did not like it but I still root for them as a company because i [TS]

  really enjoy the fact that they have a very different set of priorities than [TS]

  anybody else they're definitely appealing to nerds they're definitely [TS]

  appealing to people and you know it who want to get notifications from apps and [TS]

  stuff but they they value practicality above anything else to a ridiculous [TS]

  degree and that very different than apple and and there and also I i gotta [TS]

  give them credit their pricing is really low for what you're getting with it's a [TS]

  very good value and then you know we had that and then we had like the the [TS]

  initial batch of Android wear watches which was just horrible like they were [TS]

  just [TS]

  the worst but that was now you know what almost two years ago they've moved on [TS]

  pebble has gotten better [TS]

  I I still there still not my style but I really respect the progress they've made [TS]

  in that time and the android wear watches like I I'm now seeing android [TS]

  wear watches in person like in in the world like around and occasionally like [TS]

  i'll be somewhere like I was I was getting my windshield replaced thanks [TS]

  highway rocks and and the the service guy was talking to a head injury where [TS]

  I'm like what is that watch and i asked my batter and it was I forget but when [TS]

  he said it was it was is the is the LG or bane of things that are having watch [TS]

  it might have been that one that stuck in my head for some reason but like I've [TS]

  seen now a number of Android wear smartwatches in person that look decent [TS]

  they're all pretty big for me but they still they look decent and they I think [TS]

  they might even look more modern than the apple watch possibly just because [TS]

  like it's it's fresher look you know again you know just like with the mac [TS]

  pro Holly you know Apple set the bar for this is going to be the future is gonna [TS]

  be all this GPU power then they just didn't follow through with the Apple [TS]

  watch that they said a big barn fashion and to have this this object that is [TS]

  supposed to be like this this fashionable accessory that you wear and [TS]

  then to not update the hardware for a long time is a i don't know that i worry [TS]

  about that but the apple watch but I think it'll be alright in a long-term [TS]

  yeah anyway I think we're seeing a pattern that repeated that that started [TS]

  with the original iphone we're so the iphone 3g did come out a year after the [TS]

  original iphone but it was barely an upgrade [TS]

  I mean it was really just the 3g and i always forget there's something else [TS]

  maybe it was like gps a gps yeah yeah so it wasn't just the 3g but the 3g is the [TS]

  one that affected me on a daily basis like I just remember thinking like wow I [TS]

  really hate the way this field this phone feels compared to my old one but [TS]

  oh my god 3gs so much better than edge but otherwise they really didn't didn't [TS]

  get like a performance upgrade until the 3gs two years later and it's you know [TS]

  it's looking like the performance series performance upgrade for the watch will [TS]

  come two years after after the announcement a year and a half [TS]

  after it was after was released I think ultimately what the apple watch needed [TS]

  from the beginning and and we're seeing some of that now with us three and we'll [TS]

  see what happens in on the harbourside what needed from the beginning was just [TS]

  like focus and editing you know like at the beginning it was like all i can do [TS]

  all these different things and we have this crazy gold version the other number [TS]

  of like rough edges that send it off you know as the product found his place in [TS]

  the market I think they like I don't know that I mean I you know you and I [TS]

  are are both watch nerds also and I i'm not sure that the right formula for [TS]

  something that's supposed to be a mass-market watch is to have everybody [TS]

  wearing the same shape the same looking rectangle with different bands like [TS]

  physically i think there needs to be more variety in the physical attributes [TS]

  of the watch itself for that to succeed in that way if they want to and they [TS]

  might not have a chance like that that you know fashion and watch nerds might [TS]

  just move too quickly or be too picky or you know that it just might not work for [TS]

  them but if they're gonna go for that like high-end or even middle even [TS]

  mid-range fashionable angle for this it needs more variety in the actual watch [TS]

  body i don't and that requires a different kind of software focus that [TS]

  they're not taking so i'm guessing not going that direction but like yeah there [TS]

  doesn't seem to be anything about us three that would be a hint at a circular [TS]

  face for example or even just like you know maybe have maybe have like a [TS]

  passive mode or some Orion we're always trying on screen or may have maybe have [TS]

  some that are maybe not round but like maybe have like a thin model that maybe [TS]

  doesn't have the heart rate tracker on the back for people who don't want that [TS]

  but want you know address your version or something like it had just having [TS]

  more harder variety because like bands are nice and they do make amazing bands [TS]

  overall apples watch bands are excellent and some of them like the link bracelet [TS]

  i think i've never seen anything better than that in and the other hand there's [TS]

  the watch world but still like the they're still like you're still [TS]

  basically everyone's wearing the same watch and when it comes to fashion the [TS]

  one thing I don't know a lot about fashion but the one thing I do know is [TS]

  that you don't want to be wearing literally the exact same thing everybody [TS]

  else is where [TS]

  yeah if you want some kind of variety there some kind of individuality and [TS]

  putting on a different bands on enough that that's that helps it's better than [TS]

  nothing but it's not enough [TS]

  while at WWDC i added a very enjoyable afternoon with the cgpgrey I good friend [TS]

  of yours because enigma I was it was funny and board would talk i was going [TS]

  to bring up coffee but we met we started with coffee and we met at blue bottle [TS]

  and it was very very fun excited I didn't know what he looked like [TS]

  it's like we was i go about blue bottle i'll meet you there I need coffee music [TS]

  I need coffee too so I got there and it's right as i got to the line and the [TS]

  line was very long [TS]

  I mean like long even by bluebottle standards they got it I got a DM from [TS]

  gray that just said no man should stand on the line this long and I turned [TS]

  around and there he was uh it was exquisitely pulled it was an amazing [TS]

  introduction because he time the text and I soon as I turned around there he [TS]

  was and I just said yeah this sucks let's go to Pete's and he's like fine [TS]

  and we just walked over to the guy I can't even tell you during WC how often [TS]

  that happens I like blue bottle but I don't like blue bottle wait half an hour [TS]

  in line and then wait another 10 minutes for the trip [TS]

  no it's it is good coffee but it's not that good it isn't good enough to wait [TS]

  on that line so we got a manure there with me that the day the keynote we went [TS]

  to phil's philsie under- pronounce it and it just feels I liked it honestly I [TS]

  i had di had a good cup of coffee there I i would say that was the best cup of [TS]

  coffee i had that week [TS]

  well I also like their system where you don't just order and then it goes in a [TS]

  queue it's like you wait for a barista to become available and and then you [TS]

  place your order and then they make your i always get trip coffee and then they [TS]

  yeah they make your drip coffee and it takes like two or three minutes [TS]

  I got worried because I i skipped out of the keynote about 20 minutes before it [TS]

  started because they ran out they didn't like 10 you can really wear you know I [TS]

  know I was there plenty i was there with a couple minutes to spare so what [TS]

  happened is I got to the bill graham center at like nine oh five in the [TS]

  morning and i think they let people in before nine o'clock that press people at [TS]

  least [TS]

  and I got there like 905 9-10 i said hello i saw some people I knew and some [TS]

  apple PR people instead of you know hello went over to the coffee and it was [TS]

  all gone [TS]

  it was all get going it's like 9-10 and I was like what the hell's going on and [TS]

  when I found a seat and I'm granted if that was the same coffee they were [TS]

  serving outside the line they were doing you a favor [TS]

  I guess because it probably was the same coffee I I it it just threw me off [TS]

  because my normal my normal way is to go to blue bottle i would end then go with [TS]

  my blue ball and go to Moscow it used to be a Moscow knee and then go say hi to [TS]

  all my friends were waiting in line for the you know why i've done it to you [TS]

  yes every year i I've got your waiting in line and you've been up since like [TS]

  five in the morning and i just woke up and I have delicious coffee and i'm [TS]

  going to use a magic press pass to go right to the front of the line and get [TS]

  in and get a front-row seat and I've always enjoyed that [TS]

  well I didn't know what to do this time i wanted to get how to get a cab to get [TS]

  to the bill i didn't have to get a cab but you know to get there soon as I [TS]

  could I wanted to get there so anyway 20 / so i told them i was like screw this [TS]

  i'm gonna go find coffee so I ran out of the building and find the philsie about [TS]

  two blocks away [TS]

  Todd and I didn't know I didn't know anything about Phil's eat but heard good [TS]

  things but i would just wanted to drip coffee and Ben wanted one too so Ben [TS]

  didn't have the guts to go he just said get me one and I saw that they were [TS]

  going to make it pour over and that they didn't have like pre-made coffee that [TS]

  they could just pour into a cup for me and I thought oh this at you know I [TS]

  bluebottle this would take too long and miss the opening of the key nice how [TS]

  long this is gonna take it because I just two or three minutes and two [TS]

  minutes later I had my two coffees and I was out the door I I i had a i was i was [TS]

  so sad because I i had just met [TS]

  federico Tiki I like the night before and and you know he's he's really into [TS]

  he's Italian 41 and he's really into coffee and so I had to have my first [TS]

  coffee with federico partici as the crappy coffee in the line at bill [TS]

  grandpa and I was like I'm so I was I mean I'm so sorry I'm like we shouldn't [TS]

  really drink this like pleased and to have that be the first coffee that I [TS]

  have a favor [TS]

  gravity she is just heartbreak criminal and so fortunately we went with you [TS]

  after the keynote we met you outside when are you and we went back to meet [TS]

  them and got better call their busy we wanted yeah right yeah sorry Phil yeah [TS]

  it and that was so much better I feel like that made up for it like I i I'm [TS]

  just gonna forget about the urn coffee that we had in the line and just hope [TS]

  nobody got a picture of it and it was such a shame but but you know the phils [TS]

  philsie actually made up for it like that was really good coffee and I had [TS]

  that for the line going back in the state of the union and I was like I feel [TS]

  like that was like the forgiveness for the morning I kind of can't believe how [TS]

  honest is their system is like you go to a barista you wait you wait till briefs [TS]

  to cause you and it's sort of like a barbershop system where you wait in line [TS]

  until a priestess ok I'm ready next and then you go to the barista they make [TS]

  whatever you ordered then they call your name when it's ready and they give you [TS]

  the drink you haven't paid for anything yet they just give you the drink and [TS]

  then you are it's just on you to go over to run the register is which is separate [TS]

  and then just tell them what's in the cup and then you pay what you owe them [TS]

  it-it-it i am glad because it seems like it makes it very efficient but it's it [TS]

  seems to rely on you know the honor policy to a degree that you don't really [TS]

  see in retail places i'm also i'm curious to hear if you get any flack [TS]

  about us talking up [TS]

  Phil's on this episode because when I tweeted a few be a few days back that [TS]

  fills was the best cup of coffee i had in San Francisco that week I got a lot [TS]

  of responses that seemed to indicate this is not a widespread opinion and and [TS]

  that apparently Phil's look down upon by a lot of coffee snobs in san francisco [TS]

  and I you know I gotta say I mean I only had one cup of coffee because it was not [TS]

  it was only near program i don't think there's one presently where we were so i [TS]

  don't think so either i only had the one cup there but that one cup was [TS]

  definitely way better than what I had a bluebottle what I had in other places [TS]

  like way better [TS]

  I'm not and I'm not I don't have the fine palate that you do but i had 1i [TS]

  think i only had one blue bottle this weekend it was good but the combined [TS]

  experience was worse because even in the best-case scenario to wait so much [TS]

  longer [TS]

  right i have never gone to blue bottle and templates going [TS]

  decided you know what that was worth it because it's like I I always knew I try [TS]

  to go i try to go before before going to the first session at Moscone and so I'm [TS]

  I'm I'm in kind of a rush and I never I never leave enough time I wake up in the [TS]

  morning because he wants to wake up earlier than you have to [TS]

  so you know it's really not us it's like my go-to while there's a huge line of my [TS]

  god you gotta be kidding me [TS]

  I wait in the line I wait wait wait eventually i get the coffee after way [TS]

  too long i'm sitting there and then I'd like you know sunk cost fallacy halfway [TS]

  through the line like God I really this is I'm going to be late to the session [TS]

  we missed the first 20 minutes of it if I win this line but I've already waited [TS]

  on the line for the last 15 minutes and it seems like i'm getting close to the [TS]

  beginning you know so although all those fallacies and and stresses finally got [TS]

  the coffee and then i have a problem on my hands because now I have this huge [TS]

  full cup of very very hot liquid they don't double cup they're the best you [TS]

  could and they don't have a little jackets the best you can do is wrap a [TS]

  napkin around to just try to insulate your hand from this scorching hot cup of [TS]

  coffee that like outside Britain not have to walk from there to Moscow any [TS]

  which is you know a medium walk a few blocks trying to split coffee on my hand [TS]

  or anywhere else as I'm walking with it but it's way too hot to begin drinking [TS]

  then I finally get the Moscone and I have again this giant cup of hot liquid [TS]

  that I have to just like still be carrying with me in doing something with [TS]

  until I find go into a session at which point there's nowhere to put it in the [TS]

  session you can put on the floor but that's a big risk getting kicked over [TS]

  and they don't want to be that guy spilled hot coffee on the rug in Moscow [TS]

  knee so like you're basically like holding this thing for like the next [TS]

  half hour as it cools down to a drinkable temperature and then you have [TS]

  this giant cup of coffee you basically have to finish and usually that's too [TS]

  much caffeine for me even even their small size usually only two-thirds of it [TS]

  but i feel kind of pressured to finish the whole thing is like why I have [TS]

  nowhere to put this then I'm like buzzer the holders that it's just every time i [TS]

  say you know what that wasn't worth it [TS]

  next time I should just either like you know grab an espresso somewhere no [TS]

  anywhere anywhere can serve a reasonable espresso in that area like just grab a [TS]

  quick espresso or just tolerate the moscone coffee or just drink tea every [TS]

  time I i think that and every time I forget to do with the next time you they [TS]

  need those things that [TS]

  in Brady always talking about the hot stoppers is never the column [TS]

  yeah that would solve one of those problems all the travel problem yet [TS]

  though is that sells gives out hot stoppers because there was I actually [TS]

  kind of jog back from Phil's to the keynote with two coffees and so without [TS]

  hot stop reside my I would have too mangled scarred hands anyway but you [TS]

  would have a coffee though the whole reason I brought always reminded to [TS]

  dimension gray was I know one of his pet Bugaboos with the watches he wants a [TS]

  third-party watch faces [TS]

  yeah I would love that I broke it to him and I'm gonna break it to you that that [TS]

  is never going to happen is not going to happen and it's going to make sense to [TS]

  you and it made sense to gray but it's this weird crevasse that apple and only [TS]

  apple is in in the SmartWatch world where they do fancy themselves to be a [TS]

  real watch company and as a real watch company they have there's certain things [TS]

  that everything anything that you can see is always going to be San Francisco [TS]

  now they could maybe enforce that for third parties possibly any analog dial [TS]

  is going to use those those hands [TS]

  that's the apple style of watch hands at the big ovals those I don't know what [TS]

  you call them but those big ovals the capsule shaped is there are they to get [TS]

  are terrible yeah yeah and you know and in the real world high-end watch [TS]

  companies typically have things like that like the hands on a Rolex all [TS]

  they're not all identical that maybe like two or three different styles of [TS]

  rolex hands but they're all Rolexes are have hands that are instantly [TS]

  recognizable as rolex hands together kind of like a native family [TS]

  yep in our family and the dials are all unmistakeably Rowling's style dials and [TS]

  it and insert name of your favorite high-end watch company here and those [TS]

  things are true for all of them because anybody if it wasn't true for them they [TS]

  wouldn't be a high-end watch company and apple fancies itself a high-end watch [TS]

  company and therefore there and if you look at all of the dials there other [TS]

  than the Mickey one which is sort of an exception [TS]

  the Mickey ones are a little different [TS]

  I there-there unmistakeably Apple watch e there's an apple watching this to all [TS]

  of their analog ones and the the digital ones too and they're so therefore [TS]

  there's no way they're going to open that up to third parties and have people [TS]

  making you know watches that look like I don't know [TS]

  omegas or something like that yeah like that's ever gonna happen [TS]

  there's so many probably I mean there's there's the intellectual property [TS]

  infringement problem of land and if you look at other SmartWatch platforms you [TS]

  know pebble android like they do have this problem where their comparative [TS]

  thailand's of like knockoff face look like popular watch brands like there's [TS]

  just [TS]

  copyright and trademark infringement all over the place like it's a mess and so [TS]

  of course Apple would want that and certainly want the liability of dealing [TS]

  with that North kind of like you know lowbrow nature of that but also that you [TS]

  know technically speaking i think is a lot of technical reasons why Apple want [TS]

  to control the face app and they could overcome these barriers if they really [TS]

  wanted to they could make like you know basically like a watch face kit and you [TS]

  know have you kind of like supply them so certain custom behaviors are certain [TS]

  graphics or whatever else and but have them kind of still run the code like [TS]

  they could do a system with that if they wanted to but I think they don't want to [TS]

  for these reasons you know and i think you're right that we're probably never [TS]

  gonna get that and honestly the reason i wanted is completely selfish [TS]

  the reason i wanted to because i want to design my watch faces because i'm a huge [TS]

  like watch face design critic nerd like I I'd nitpick every watch face I see and [TS]

  there are very few that i'm happy with and even once I'm happy with I'm usually [TS]

  like only mostly happy with because I'm that kind of nerd and I think you are [TS]

  probably similar in there / that is that safety [TS]

  yeah there's watches that I like except I find if I find that the hour hand is [TS]

  just too close to the size of the minute hand i tell ya i mean like yeah because [TS]

  though that's definitely that's legitimate that impacts legibility of [TS]

  time quickly [TS]

  yeah and and or vice versa maybe the hour hand strikes me is too small now [TS]

  there's it it's there there's no confusion but to me it just looks on [TS]

  gamely [TS]

  right i mean being proportion and I've I mean I'm in trouble with watch faces [TS]

  because I've been affected by our I've been bitten by the like getting annoyed [TS]

  by poor placement of date windows bug where there's like this [TS]

  dislike designed virus destroying the watch industry right now because [TS]

  everyone's putting date with a little place because it turns out most people [TS]

  who buy a watch want to have the date on it somewhere and so you have to kind of [TS]

  like shove it somewhere on the dial and there's lots of easy but bad places to [TS]

  do it like i will just cut the 3 in half and kind of stick it there or we're [TS]

  going to get diagonally between the four of the five minutes [TS]

  oh just look so bad I i'm picky about things like that but the date the date [TS]

  complication in particular you open my eyes to the fact that there's a lot of [TS]

  watches coming outwards in a bad place and then once you start looking for it [TS]

  you see it and I think one of the reasons why is the the so many watches [TS]

  don't make their own movements and so they're using like indeed ETA movement [TS]

  or the japanese company now that now that ETA isn't really short selling [TS]

  their movements on the open market but if you're limited by the what you can do [TS]

  to the standard movement you're limited in certain ways to wear the day can go [TS]

  and all of a sudden it just sticks out like well they had to they didn't want [TS]

  to put the date there but they had to and you can just see it [TS]

  yeah bothers me so many so many otherwise great watch face designs are [TS]

  ruined by a bad date window there anything else you wanted to talk about [TS]

  this week what else you haven't list [TS]

  I mean we've definitely lost all the listeners talking about watch design so [TS]

  now are you and everyone so on [TS]

  I think it ties in with watch os3 table III bet you have just lost more [TS]

  listeners during the last five minutes then you lose me talk about baseball [TS]

  I don't talk about the podcasting with the middle now it's too late too late I [TS]

  don't talk about what about this car shifter thing you see that I i know the [TS]

  story I i know the whole recall thing I haven't actually seen the shifter but I [TS]

  I saw like the anecdotes of like that the complaint people had filed about [TS]

  like you know this this exact model of car we know something that seems like [TS]

  this it started rolling backwards when I got out because I thought it was in park [TS]

  and it is [TS]

  said shift into neutral or so I've never seen a car like this before I guess I [TS]

  don't find myself a new cars all that often but it so that the card so the [TS]

  terrible traffic picture of it this in Anton Yelchin the guy who played check [TS]

  off in the new star trek movies died that terrible freak accident where is [TS]

  his jeep cherokee he got out of it he thought he had it in park [TS]

  apparently got out of it and it was in either a neutral reverse and ran down [TS]

  the hill and pin them against the zone gave me a got killed the design of this [TS]

  shifter is so bad it just goes up and down [TS]

  it's like I like to think of it like a paddle shifter yeah like wearing like a [TS]

  different mode just kind of like you know [TS]

  up up down down i kinda yeah it's it's exactly it's like thinking of like it so [TS]

  it's like you just hit up three times to put in part but if you hit up two times [TS]

  you're in neutral or maybe it's like how hard you press it or something but [TS]

  you're not actually moving it and clicking into these positions like you [TS]

  do on a traditional on and so it's so easy i just cannot believe that this [TS]

  design shift because I I think you I would see what a problem this design is [TS]

  even without having the benefit of this tragic news story to put it in context [TS]

  because it just seems to me like this is the design where you have to be paying [TS]

  very close attention to the indicator light of what gear on [TS]

  whereas with the traditional one you don't even I don't even look I just hit [TS]

  the brake push all the way up and i know i'm in park [TS]

  I get absolutely with a hundred percent certainty put my car into park every [TS]

  single time [TS]

  blindfolded right i mean this is and this is that you know i think i've seen [TS]

  a lot of cars reason especially higher-end cars and newer cars a lot of [TS]

  a lot of the makers are kind of playing with the shifter lever and redesign them [TS]

  in different ways to make them like you know electronically-controlled sort of [TS]

  like a direct kind of linkage and I apologize in advance to John circles i'm [TS]

  getting this wrong cuz he's way more Carter than i am but basically like [TS]

  everyone is kinda like messing with the shifter design and and the and the [TS]

  parking brake designs and there's so many of them are electronic now so they [TS]

  have these weird controls that are you know of poor design the the good ones [TS]

  I've seen its weird first get used to but it's actually better long term which [TS]

  is like the BMW ones [TS]

  the park is a button on top of the shifter so the shifter moving up and [TS]

  down switching between like reverse neutral Drive but if you want to put it [TS]

  in park it's actually a button on top so you can't like it's it's very clear [TS]

  which one of those things you're doing test wasn't a test the same way where [TS]

  Tesla it's it's a column shifter which this is the first i've ever had a column [TS]

  shifter but I got used to it pretty quick because it's like you know down [TS]

  his drive and then there's a button on the end to hit for parking you have to [TS]

  hit that button every time like the the physical action of pushing that button [TS]

  in is nothing like any other operation that lever so you know you're very [TS]

  unlikely to accidentally do it right whereas on this Jeep behind putting it [TS]

  in park is just pushing a little bit longer either i don't my question if [TS]

  it's how long you press up or how many times you press but it's only ever so [TS]

  slightly different than putting it in neutral and I'm laughing but and it's [TS]

  terrible that this guy died and that other people have obviously been hurt [TS]

  too because there's a product recall but it it's just mind-boggling that you [TS]

  would make putting it in park something that's hard to distinguish well yeah I [TS]

  mean it's the the bad design that goes into car interiors and that actually [TS]

  ships in car interiors boggles my mind likes there so it isn't this is like way [TS]

  worse the date windows and watches there is so much horrible design in car [TS]

  interiors and and the controls and car interiors in those days I don't think [TS]

  anybody's ever been killed by a replacement of a date window on a watch [TS]

  dial probably not it's it's it's horrible because you know like it as as [TS]

  we see with this like design flaws in cars like that that can cause actually [TS]

  fatal consequences that can actually get people killed and often they do actually [TS]

  people killing and it's you know they gotta take design seriously and when you [TS]

  have some like this it's like who does anybody actually think about this the [TS]

  only testing I mean like it's it's just a tragedy [TS]

  yeah I can I do see the of their origins of why they would ship this horrible [TS]

  design was just the basic idea of we want to switch to an electronic system [TS]

  instead of a analog system of where this is but so okay there's the why but this [TS]

  was not the answer [TS]

  that's terrible I anything else that's it i think we've we've definitely the [TS]

  put most of the audience to sleep or lost them in the wash discussion i don't [TS]

  think so i think though I think we're doing this discussion [TS]

  alright well we're under three hours so that not bad as predicted [TS]

  I want to thank our sponsors in reverse order ministry of supply audible and [TS]

  wealthfront I and I want to thank you marco arment your podcast it accidental [TS]

  tech podcast is it ATP . FM you've also got what else you got a more podcast now [TS]

  get under the radar with underscore David Smith real 8mm / radar top for my [TS]

  wife really that really did I femslash top for the one informant [TS]

  yeah she's the best I said you feel bad with the the developer one where [TS]

  underscore was like totally up to date and like knew all the api's by like [TS]

  tuesday of WTC week or do you just feel like no this is great [TS]

  underscore wolf fill me in on what I need to know that basically the ladder [TS]

  like what when when you when you first become friends underscore if you're a [TS]

  developer you just feel incredibly lazy and inadequate by comparison you like my [TS]

  god like the what I did during this time was like you know have a stake and edit [TS]

  a few photos and go to sleep and like what he did during this time was like [TS]

  make for new apps and learn everything about the api's and yeah you definitely [TS]

  feel like wow I I waste a lot of time in this guy he runs into higher metabolism [TS]

  clearly we ran into him on sunday the first day we were out for WWDC and I we [TS]

  me and Amy and Paul friend of the show Park fast as we walked over to the bill [TS]

  graham center so i could get my credentials and stuff and we ran into [TS]

  underscore on the way we're in a bind it was amazing we ran into something so [TS]

  many people on the way underscores their we're all freezing it is like 61 degrees [TS]

  and windy and everybody's just frozen about underscores wearing shorts and a [TS]

  t-shirt and look at Holy comfortable [TS]

  yeah i mean that he's the frustrating thing about about underscore is that [TS]

  he's just a really great person and there's basically no downsides like [TS]

  really I hope there's like you like it when somebody's like super like together [TS]

  in life it's tempting to kind of think like man like you know it [TS]

  least they're like you know a jerk or something like you try to find something [TS]

  that makes you feel less bad about how you haven't you know how you are less [TS]

  productive than them or something and with him you just can't find that like [TS]

  there because he's just you know he is just a really good guy and he's also [TS]

  very productive it's very frustrating [TS]

  the other thing that killed me as he was wearing a really big backpack and so it [TS]

  looked like it was you know it was like wait to get back and it turns out that [TS]

  was it actually wasn't a really big backpack it was a really small [TS]

  this is everything he had for the entire week like yes he was just getting ahead [TS]

  he hadn't checked into his hotel yet so like everything brought for an entire [TS]

  week in San Francisco was in the you know when i was thinking of just walking [TS]

  around for the afternoon look like a very big backpack when it realized that [TS]

  it was everything he had for the week it's like I cannot believe how efficient [TS]

  is yeah he must he's got to know one of those secret techniques for folding [TS]

  t-shirts or something [TS]

  yeah we all have a lot to learn from him all right Thank You Marco thanks [TS]