The Talk Show

160: ‘Fresh Out of Prison’, With Special Guest Nilay Patel


  nilay patel welcome to the talk show it's been no I should have had you on [TS]

  before I don't even understand how you haven't been on before [TS]

  yeah it's been a long time coming man I should have had you would actually have [TS]

  your chest this is this is long overdue [TS]

  I'm gonna be on the show and then you are you're like all over the box family [TS]

  you were on . off to show you tell me [TS]

  yeah and then a couple weeks we'll have you on the verge cast and then a couple [TS]

  weeks we'll have you told host control-alt-delete with wall that was [TS]

  actually a great that would actually be pretty fun to see the show among with [TS]

  Kafka is out i haven't seen it and heard it there's a fun i did was not aware [TS]

  that there would be photographs you haven't my wife screams downstairs like [TS]

  a half an hour ago [TS]

  what is this photo of you it is very unflattering photo of me looking somehow [TS]

  i have a I I'm not self-conscious I don't care she's like oh my god of if I [TS]

  there was a terrible photo of me on the internet I would kill myself and I was [TS]

  like well so what [TS]

  yeah I was not aware that there would be photos and if i was rude the Kafka's [TS]

  show we recorded together at a little he's got a cool little studio in like a [TS]

  comedy club in New York but it was like ninety-eight percent humidity in New [TS]

  York and I just taken the subway up so i didn't have my shirt . so i came out of [TS]

  like a sweatbox oh my god [TS]

  yeah i mean it was a good show though it's a really good job [TS]

  the recode style is to is to put people in uncomfortable situations then get the [TS]

  truth out of them so well the his studio wasn't uncomfortable it's just that I [TS]

  was not aware that i would did not prepare myself for a photo session but [TS]

  anyway there are no photos on the time you get to get the red Rico chairs that [TS]

  only in character only on camera show this was it's a very utilitarian little [TS]

  studio it's actually you know our box media cuadra code last year it's been so [TS]

  much fun having that team around the verge like we don't do a lot together [TS]

  but our sights on our staffs have always been very simpatico and it has been [TS]

  their incredible it's just super fun to watch them work well we can do my eyes [TS]

  would roll right into it then because i was going to talk about the matter stuff [TS]

  about the business in my opinion and I'm not just saying this because you're the [TS]

  guest on my show I honestly think both recode [TS]

  the verge have gotten better in the last year and it's very noticeable to me and [TS]

  and with the verge the little more subtle but with recode to me it's like [TS]

  it very noticeable that like recode can now focus on what Rico does best and let [TS]

  other stuff you know let you guys let the verge do other things [TS]

  yeah i mean it i mean i always think because it's been great and it has been [TS]

  really fun for us to get Walt and Lauren on our team is product viewers and bring [TS]

  all of that experience I can't I i can't speak highly enough about working with [TS]

  wall it is maybe the best thing that has happened to me in my career to have him [TS]

  Kevin he's incredible idea its I think this is true even offer a long time and [TS]

  we should say John and I have known each other like talked for quite awhile i [TS]

  think people think of us is like Missy rifles but we're not like we just have [TS]

  different perspectives and it's fun to fight on Twitter so we do that I'm but [TS]

  while i think most people know Walt is the guy who writes the column and very [TS]

  few people know Walt is the actually incredible talent and personality that [TS]

  he had it's a huge personality I and he's got a lot of ideas about how to do [TS]

  that mean he he started his column he was the first one ever to start a [TS]

  personal technology column and he and Karis started that conference business [TS]

  when no one else is doing that now everybody does it and they started all [TS]

  things D is a start-up within the journal and then once we could like [TS]

  that's a long history of doing entrepreneur things in the media and its [TS]

  I'm trying to do that and its difficulties and him started that colony [TS]

  the fact it's not just that he started the columns that he started it in the [TS]

  wall street journal [TS]

  yeah and and with that particular audience and I they're just had to be so [TS]

  much like you've got to be kidding me learn you know why new world we run this [TS]

  personal technology column in The Wall Street Journal [TS]

  yeah and it ended up being you know that's a huge hit [TS]

  I mean it's it defines the form i think i think all of us [TS]

  I'm you me everybody we're all just riffing on what started back i mean [TS]

  literally the first line that he ever in the columns like technology is too hard [TS]

  to use [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  triple it's like we've just been building on that ever since in one way [TS]

  or another right gets hard we've got X understand and explain and you know [TS]

  writing from the customers the real persons perspective not the enthusiasts [TS]

  perspective right and there anything there in that is was a big focus and you [TS]

  know you're talking about rico and the virgin together and sort of growing its [TS]

  there's like three perspectives in there that I think are really interesting one [TS]

  you know I think the big difference between the Virgin recode and it's a [TS]

  really big difference and we talked about it a lot is recode is is [TS]

  interested in the effects on culture and entertainment all that stuff but they [TS]

  are really bad technology in business right they they are deep into executive [TS]

  movements their deep into yahoo board struggles that deep into i think peter [TS]

  kafka is the best media reporter in the industry [TS]

  I'm not even sure to compare them to I i would daddy wouldn't let me get to a few [TS]

  sivanna show but no but seriously I is incredible [TS]

  I don't know who want to even say would you know who would even argue if i was [TS]

  going to take a devil at devil's advocate advocate standpoint as who else [TS]

  maybe bit the best media reporter I don't even know who else I would throw [TS]

  up there [TS]

  really it's it's it's it's a it's a one-man show and obviously cares [TS]

  exemplary and a staff of I think mark bergen for example is when the best [TS]

  google reporters industry and iconic goes I'm so it's interesting you know we [TS]

  could came on in the verge we kind of realized I kind of realize what we don't [TS]

  there's no point try to compete with some of the best business coverage in [TS]

  history like we're kind of not going to do that we're going to be what we r [TS]

  which is a really big mainstream culture brand and our the way that we see the [TS]

  culture is through technology we are deep nerds like i'm a huge nerd [TS]

  actually I've never told you this story John but right now and it's I think it's [TS]

  a good setup for maybe the conversation later but Apple I got my entire start is [TS]

  a nerd and as somebody who cares about technology by basically showing up every [TS]

  day at the local apple reseller and racine wisconsin when I was middle [TS]

  school until they gave me a job and my job was to like a reformat people's [TS]

  computers with floppies in the basement [TS]

  and in like you know like this thing about ports that you know we United are [TS]

  you mad [TS]

  I just knew when the port's came went because I like had basically fixed every [TS]

  model of Macintosh four years in like I think that's us like we're diverges [TS]

  really nerdy but carefully deeply about the culture and I want to virtually a [TS]

  big brand like a really big everybody should be able to read it and understand [TS]

  it and connect to it in some way and I think recode is really focused on the [TS]

  business of how this all works and I you know I went to a conference and I was [TS]

  sitting with wall action afterwards I was like what is amazing to me is the [TS]

  amount of power here and how interested Rico isn't interrogating the power I [TS]

  think that's fascinating i love reading record i love i think that great [TS]

  reporters in a great work there i'm less sort of interested in the mechanics of [TS]

  power i'm more interested in when you buy the stuff [TS]

  how does it affect you when we make things and these tools have radically [TS]

  expanded the ability of people to make things the number of people who make [TS]

  things how does that affect how we make it how does it affect creativity how [TS]

  does it affect how we distribute it [TS]

  how do we talked and I think that stuff is that's the verge stuff and so there [TS]

  is no I think focus makes things better and I i wouldn't say it's been a really [TS]

  it's not like explicit like I commanded we're going to go this way that never [TS]

  happened but i think the two teams like each other and work well together and [TS]

  we've allowed each other to grow and focus [TS]

  yeah that's and it definitely in my opinion as an outsider definitely shows [TS]

  and I if anything and it's one way that I can sort of measure it because on a [TS]

  daily basis i just linked to what I think is worth the attention or or that [TS]

  I have something to comment on if you know it's either either something that I [TS]

  think wow this is big enough that everybody comes my said I want to see it [TS]

  or maybe that's not quite it maybe it's a little bit more i just want to throw [TS]

  in my two cents on this right and that's really the only things i think about on [TS]

  a daily basis but in the aggregate I can look back and stand just search and see [TS]

  who I link to and my links to the verge and recode are both up over the last [TS]

  year [TS]

  let's switch it doesn't like great stats like you know it's like that's way [TS]

  better than comscore whatever garbage and like throw that out and start paying [TS]

  you for your links stats [TS]

  great and it's interesting to me you know that our racket is in such flux and [TS]

  it's probably i don't know that it's never going to settle down again I think [TS]

  that's sort of the way of the with media being on the internet instead of being [TS]

  in print [TS]

  I i just think its inherent that there will be more people will move around two [TS]

  jobs more often and publications will you know merchant and change and fold [TS]

  more frequently than they did in the old days but it's interesting to me to that [TS]

  an awful lot of the people who i like best have coalesced onto the recoding [TS]

  verge staff like the bigger the best example I can think of is is my palate [TS]

  dan dan frommer has been on this show many times now's editor it at ricoh it's [TS]

  just interesting to me that of all the different places at that somebody like [TS]

  dan could wind up it's you know no surprise to me that these waves at recog [TS]

  now [TS]

  yeah i think that the company's called boxer reason right the it i like working [TS]

  here i'm obviously I've worked here for a long walk along and making air quotes [TS]

  a long time is five years and forever [TS]

  it's literally the whole history the company wasn't called box for sure that [TS]

  but it's a is called foster reason and i think from the top down there is just [TS]

  enormous emphasis placed on the value of creativity in the value of journalism [TS]

  and it's not it's it's to me it i think the three big companies that are worth [TS]

  watching in this space it's like 3.5 right there's BuzzFeed obviously that [TS]

  their monster I think vice is super interesting and you know in terms of [TS]

  tone and what they capture about the zeitgeist and us i hope and i think you [TS]

  know the New York Times Washington Post their kind of . 5 because they are these [TS]

  traditional companies that are doing a really good job of turning into [TS]

  something else [TS]

  yeah and the three new media companies i i i can tell you confident it's a [TS]

  BuzzFeed advice and then I hope Fox is always in a conversation and they just [TS]

  represent I think three different tax at it and I think the one that you're [TS]

  noticing that us is we let people run really fast but we kind of demand that [TS]

  everybody not be beholden to what worked yesterday and I so if you're a creative [TS]

  person I think that's a good pitch [TS]

  I completely agree so keep it up after work and I think I gotta say it's funny [TS]

  because you mention this time flux daring fireball the last site that I go [TS]

  to every day on the desktop [TS]

  I can't think of another website that i type in your desktop browser everyday is [TS]

  a matter of course but not even like the verge I do it because I work here [TS]

  Puckett I you know our other I i generally consumed the verge about as [TS]

  much in my feeds as i do like by typing the website in daring fireball for [TS]

  better or worse like rarely shows up in my feeds but i religiously have it on [TS]

  the desktop so you've got it you're good i mean are your stats showing the people [TS]

  are coming at you from social the way everybody else is [TS]

  I know right I the vast majority of my head to go right to the homepage still [TS]

  and so I actually worried about that because I worry that having a I mean you [TS]

  can tell by looking at the site i mean the design of the site is about you know [TS]

  it the whole point of the simple simplicity and the top-down [TS]

  chronological order of daring fireball is my assumption is sure there are some [TS]

  of some people who are going to check multiple times a day god bless you i [TS]

  love you you're you know the best readers i have but there's other people [TS]

  who you know like what I have to say but either aren't that obsessive about [TS]

  checking the web or they're more disciplined and don't dick around on the [TS]

  web or maybe they're just really freaking busy and they don't have time [TS]

  and i love the idea that if somebody's really really busy but it's like the end [TS]

  of the day and they're getting ready to go home and be with the family or [TS]

  whatever and they think well let me just go check daring fireball and see if [TS]

  there's anything I should know about [TS]

  that's sort of what I hope to be four people and but I worry though that that [TS]

  that model because that basic idea of hey go to this site homepage sort of [TS]

  going away that it's a problematic for me i don't know i don't know a the verge [TS]

  has the biggest desktop homepage it inside a box media bye-bye huge factor [TS]

  in it it hasn't [TS]

  as far as near as i can tell you are traffic is massively increased over the [TS]

  years [TS]

  % like video views are Scott their up literally 25 hundred percent [TS]

  month-to-month this past but it's like bonkers stupid facebook inflated numbers [TS]

  but I below all of that is like this holding steady desktop audience and I do [TS]

  think it's I think you and I are in a unique position against sort of the rest [TS]

  of the mass media we have a lot of nerds at work hard work have a 24 inch monitor [TS]

  sitting next to their other 24 inch monitor and basically four sites so like [TS]

  Soviet yeah i think there's that audience is not going away and the other [TS]

  thing is that i had i do nothing on facebook [TS]

  literally I have no you know i don't i don't use it personally and I don't have [TS]

  any daring fireball set up on facebook i have thought about that for a long time [TS]

  and it's been I've you know been like thinking maybe I should maybe I [TS]

  shouldn't yesterday's news made me think well you could kind of glad that I [TS]

  didn't know but so and I'd and I get nothing from facebook i mean like I'm [TS]

  looking at my refers right now and like I'd it's not even in the top 20 so [TS]

  there's not one thing from facebook but maybe they don't send a refer code i [TS]

  don't know maybe I should start making like like daring fireball food videos [TS]

  and that should be your face fixed are you just making really nice bourbon [TS]

  cocktails like I would watch that would be great [TS]

  yeah i yeah that would get old quick books on how to make like no I don't [TS]

  know how to make three cocktails so the canopy will be less we'd only knows how [TS]

  to make like four kinds of cookie man there's let's just get back to every [TS]

  time I yes I like we always play pretty the the twitter links that coming from [TS]

  Tico that's a that's pretty big but it's nowhere near as big as the homepage [TS]

  homepage yes let me see here about 20 times more popular than my most popular [TS]

  individual story yesterday [TS]

  yeah i mean in a good metric for us that we use and don't use is our home page [TS]

  when we look at our real-time stats generally it's is the most popular page [TS]

  on the site if a story beats the homepage were like that's what he's [TS]

  doing great you know like so I I don't think it's going away I did I just don't [TS]

  think desktop computers at work are going away i have this crazy sort of [TS]

  three drinks and I start babbling about this theory [TS]

  where the nature of productivity at work has totally changed because of the [TS]

  Internet where you know the typical news consumer 25 years ago would read the [TS]

  news in the morning go to work [TS]

  presumably do work at work come home watch the evening news that go to bed [TS]

  and start over and now it's like you wake up in the morning you read news you [TS]

  go to work you read even more news everyone's traffic is up and go home and [TS]

  you consume like Netflix and like when do people do work has become like an [TS]

  open question to me because everyone's just reading news like all day long in [TS]

  the internet I don't think that audience i think it might get mediated through [TS]

  different platforms I think obviously the bigger audiences honorable but [TS]

  fundamentally I think people are going to look at big screens at work a lot and [TS]

  often what they're gonna look at on this big screens as news so my level of panic [TS]

  about Facebook algorithm changes like basically zero because the Verge's big [TS]

  enough and honestly has like a large enough referral base a google search is [TS]

  still a massive referral base into the verge like get out i'm not worried about [TS]

  a little i'll go change here in there as long as we just any aggregate keep [TS]

  growing [TS]

  yeah i think you know it's I think the best thing and the best long-term [TS]

  strategy is just common sense is to build a brand where people you know it [TS]

  remember the source whether it's a byline which is a little bit more like [TS]

  me as a one-man show just all I know the verge I definitely want to read the [TS]

  Virgin's take on the new this new iPad it's not just that I want to read on [TS]

  ipad review it [TS]

  oh I want definitely see the Virgin's version if you don't have that that's [TS]

  where you're you're justyou're I think you're screwed eventually because [TS]

  something is going to change if you're just chasing the social traffic for the [TS]

  sake of social traffic without any real brand you know if people don't know what [TS]

  side they're on [TS]

  then you're screwed say we actually made you know we've always had this big video [TS]

  program but we made a huge investment in photography and [TS]

  and i'm going to say design even though i think people always had a big [TS]

  investment design but photography and story design and have become a bigger [TS]

  investment for us this year because we realized what are the places inside of a [TS]

  story that's traveling and getting disaggregated everywhere that you can [TS]

  touch it's like yep bylines style obviously content our video you know [TS]

  we've got to level up we've been pretty good at it but when we get better but [TS]

  then photos travel best of all actually you can look at it like oh that's [TS]

  average photo so we made a big investment there this year it's been [TS]

  going pretty well i am i'm fairly pleased with sort of the the notch up [TS]

  we've taken and it's funny because it's all the stuff is like a huge computer [TS]

  that i love it's like now we've got really expensive cameras and wacom [TS]

  tablets and huge monitors with hoods and I'm like yes this is exactly what I [TS]

  thought working in the media with people and it's just a good time let me take a [TS]

  break and thank for sponsor the show great sponsor this is the second time i [TS]

  sponsored i love this company its 0 de ro now despite its importance i would [TS]

  just daresay ubiquitous this Wi-Fi is broken [TS]

  imagine if electricity in your house didn't reach certain parts like if there [TS]

  was a corner of your bedroom or you just couldn't get electricity or it was just [TS]

  spotty and other sometimes it works sometimes it didn't would be ridiculous [TS]

  nobody would put up with that but that's the status quo for Wi-Fi with dead zones [TS]

  and buffering and rooms they get a good signal and rooms that don't write in [TS]

  your same house [TS]

  ero was designed to change all of this the company manufactures a single device [TS]

  it's a small elegant box about the size of an apple TV sort of looks like an [TS]

  apple product you know round wrecks are a little want to call it a skwerkel [TS]

  super simple app you put the app on your phone and you just set it up through [TS]

  there and so you don't have to go through one of those janky web [TS]

  interfaces where you're typing anything you just get on the app and you set it [TS]

  up and you put a couple of these zeros throughout your home [TS]

  there isn't one of them has to be the one that is like the the the like main [TS]

  one where you plug your cable and but it's the same device so it doesn't have [TS]

  you don't have to keep track of which one's the special first one just put [TS]

  like I think the main one that [TS]

  did all sorts of packs depends on the size of your house you go to their [TS]

  website at zero dot com and they will tell you how many to buy but i think the [TS]

  default is a 3-pack you get three or four these things you put a couple of [TS]

  them throughout your house and they just do all the magic behind the scenes to [TS]

  just give a strong signal you don't have to do anything you don't have to act [TS]

  like a network admin so super easy just go to erode com is Wi-Fi that works and [TS]

  use the code talk show and you will get free overnight shipping [TS]

  I've got this set up in my house could not be easier I and my Wi-Fi is better [TS]

  than ever and i get a better signal in my bedroom which never used to get a [TS]

  good signal and i get a signal and now I do get a signal in my garage which I [TS]

  never did before which was always a huge pain in the ass when you get the car and [TS]

  try to as sink something or get something the phone my phone would [TS]

  always think that it was connected to the Wi-Fi but couldn't really get a [TS]

  signal huge painting is no more [TS]

  thanks 2020 calm and remember that code talk show and you'll get free overnight [TS]

  shipping first 40 from walt mossberg review [TS]

  yeah i think i'm reading a narrow ad on the verge chance later today it's really [TS]

  your moment I lives company I got it I got it I got I'd get it all set up in my [TS]

  parents their house is too big for like normal like a big Wisconsin rambling [TS]

  house and I got it i'm going there in August a minute to set it up and get it [TS]

  right [TS]

  my parents had this thing happens to them where AT&T call them is like a [TS]

  you've got u verse and your son pays for your phones on any of the 80 count when [TS]

  you combine them will give you a free smart home my dad was like yeah that [TS]

  sounds great and now it's just like garbage smart-home stuff like I'm so [TS]

  terrified like it's gonna get hacked [TS]

  anytime I parents have to use more software i get like very afraid and [TS]

  evidence supports the work i got interested i just figured out i actually [TS]

  took a guess it was the wrong guess [TS]

  yeah code is not not actually talk show because the code is actually the talk [TS]

  show [TS]

  yeah with the dasha which is even better I hate to say it I might I don't want to [TS]

  say bad things [TS]

  about sponsors who just use the code talk show but I paid for the and I like [TS]

  it when i use it and in fact the code 40 is the talk show and that's the code you [TS]

  need for free overnight shipping hopefully by I don't want to edit this [TS]

  don't add it Caleb just let this role [TS]

  this will make it stick in people's heads people will remember when they go [TS]

  to erode the talk show because i had had to correct it [TS]

  I make their about podcast addresses people read them be four people listen [TS]

  to them because I blow them so repeatedly and once plus this whole [TS]

  industry gets professionalize that it's all over [TS]

  yeah we're totally suck its right now I do think that people say that i often [TS]

  say like I I'll talk to people at the show might what about the ads you skip [TS]

  the ads because I I've often said that I beers my goal with the address my goal [TS]

  with the address is to do whatever I can to make you not want to skip even if its [TS]

  sponsor you've heard before and I think you're right that half of the fun is [TS]

  this if you how I screw it up like I I blow them routinely and you know that [TS]

  the bigger advertisers are starting to poke around the edges of the industry [TS]

  and like as the card companies and banks and whoever the hell shows up and [TS]

  they're like we need to be more professional like people just gonna [TS]

  start skipping the ads it's graduate this is why you don't want metrics and [TS]

  podcast you don't want to know [TS]

  I totally agree but I was just going to be a cock about that I don't think you [TS]

  want metrics I know that people think they want them but I don't think they [TS]

  really want [TS]

  I I I'm sure Peter had smarter stuff to me to say about my my read on it is that [TS]

  if they're big money is ever going to enter enter product ask the push for [TS]

  metrics is gonna it's gonna happen because everything i know about our [TS]

  advertising and I know very little about our advertising but suggests that the [TS]

  big money is very interested in making sure it gets returned to this [TS]

  yeah but i feel like i honestly believe that the the fact that you can measure [TS]

  more accurately and they do on most web at is actually detrimental to everybody [TS]

  people think that they want the stats and they think that they do but all it [TS]

  leads is too [TS]

  it's I could be careful what you measure type of situation because then you start [TS]

  optimizing to what you're measuring it which isn't really the thing you want to [TS]

  like the most important thing that we do is we are the most important resource [TS]

  the only two resources that are truly scarce in and are in this racket is [TS]

  attention and money dollars and everybody's of course everybody keeps [TS]

  track of the dollars nobody gets fooled and doesn't keep track of dollars on any [TS]

  and you know the advertisers know what they're spending they know what they [TS]

  should be spending in and the people like us who run you know [TS]

  podcasts and websites know how much we're making but I feel like attention [TS]

  measuring attention is not it you can't do it through JavaScript and and hits [TS]

  and web server logs it's not that that's not actually accurate [TS]

  yeah well that there's like it depends on what you slice i think and again i'm [TS]

  sure we're just recapitulating conversation had somebody who is much [TS]

  more about this man but and there's anything you can I don't think boxes and [TS]

  banners the future of advertising and I don't think you can measure it like i [TS]

  bought this many ads and I'm expecting this many more sales that will kill you [TS]

  I think I think people now know what the hell 0 is because they produce a it [TS]

  yeah that's really measurable in like a pretty specific way I'm but you gotta [TS]

  know like if you buy a hat on my cast and listen to podcast like you kinda [TS]

  didn't get that out of it i do agree though that it's you know so ero will [TS]

  know how well this does because people will use that code the talk show and [TS]

  they will figure out at wow look at your hopefully wow look at how many people [TS]

  but the kit from that code because they can track it right to the code so that [TS]

  they do get that right and I guess that the problem is like with the big money [TS]

  is that when coke gets into podcast ads they're not going to have a code where [TS]

  she you know like oh when you go to the counter at your local bodega and get it [TS]

  by a coke give them the code the talk shows [TS]

  that's so they know that's why you're buying a coat it doesn't work for them [TS]

  right and on the other hand people you know people want coke to get into [TS]

  podcast [TS]

  advertising coca-cola company spends an awful lot of money on ADD and it would [TS]

  be nice to some of it when the pocket so I do understand that there's a dilemma [TS]

  there where the sponsors who are into podcasting right now are these direct [TS]

  sale companies that the codes work great [TS]

  they really do I mean they they know exactly how well they're doing [TS]

  yeah but they but yeah I don't work for bigger brands though right and you know [TS]

  the for a bigger media company [TS]

  what's everybody make a podcast is maybe a worse use of time then write x more [TS]

  articles right and that it's hard it's hard for me because I don't I can't make [TS]

  decisions about my budget because I don't know anything about the revenue so [TS]

  it's it's tough it's I think it's really interesting that it's I think there's [TS]

  like five or six inflection points happening in technology right now that [TS]

  basically make it seem like the industry is chaos which means it's the best time [TS]

  to write about technology it is the most fun because almost anything can happen [TS]

  in any direction and you [TS]

  there's just no way to know except to write about it and figure it out and try [TS]

  to report on it and talk to more people on but it is absolutely chaos [TS]

  yeah but what do you think some of those inflection points are and so I think [TS]

  that sort of the settling of the phone industry has led to get out of chaos [TS]

  I think there's a lot of money floating around the world a lot of energy a lot [TS]

  of people who want to make stuff around technology [TS]

  well the other lines i think before you move beyond the phone thing I think that [TS]

  it you have to and we knew this we could see where it was going and you can see [TS]

  that the the graphs but now that were there [TS]

  it's amazing is which is that everybody on the planet anywhere who has even [TS]

  vaguely enough money to possibly own a smartphone has one [TS]

  yeah and the number and and there's an economic angle i don't know if this is [TS]

  where folks don't steal it but the fact that the that the graph of how many [TS]

  people live in abject poverty anywhere in the world is it's very likely that we [TS]

  might get 20 in the next [TS]

  you know 10 or 15 years which is amazing and that means everybody's got one of [TS]

  these things [TS]

  yeah and the implication would you everybody knew that was going to be [TS]

  amazing but it's like it you just couldn't foresee all of the implications [TS]

  of it right i think so yet that's it's like it's like one be right it's like we [TS]

  heart something happened [TS]

  we've we landed on the two platforms and when I was saying a lot of people with [TS]

  money and energy they've realized that they can't compete or invest in [TS]

  platforms they're not they're not gonna win you can't windows phone is stalking [TS]

  fucking happen right right [TS]

  blackberry r.i.p right so that money has to go somewhere else those companies [TS]

  that their investment if the company's die the people who work that they have [TS]

  to go somewhere else and so all of that energy is going in a thousand different [TS]

  directions so that just chaos fun chaos but cast in less then I think there's [TS]

  the next layer which is ok everybody has these things what are we going to do [TS]

  with them [TS]

  I think the first wave of that was the app store and you saw just a ton of [TS]

  energy and effort and interest in that I think apples made a bunch of moves [TS]

  around subscriptions I think that's a response to kind of the great settling [TS]

  of the app store right we put a bunch of money [TS]

  ping-pong ball around it leveled off we now know that the average number of apps [TS]

  people download in a month is 0 and it's a lucky you had searches hard [TS]

  discoveries hard getting people to pay more than a dollar is hard to facebook [TS]

  instagram twitter a handful games [TS]

  those are apps yeah right that's cool and that's fine [TS]

  so there's that chaos is still a little there and I think there's a lot of [TS]

  interest on subscriptions right now it's like moving to the next big I we there [TS]

  was so much discussion with everybody in my circle at WWDC this year about the [TS]

  app store just because there was the news that came out the week before and [TS]

  you know it's like how does the cell but the one thing that every every [TS]

  discussion eventually settled upon every single time all week long was eventually [TS]

  sort of a a deep sigh and can you believe would you have ever believed it [TS]

  like in 2008 2009 2010 the gold rush years of the app store would you ever [TS]

  believe that when the dust settled that the top-earning charge would every [TS]

  single one of them with some kind of scam me game where they're trying to get [TS]

  people to buy that gold every single hundred yeah just an in-app but it's [TS]

  some kind of game that's like design like a slot machine to keep you pumping [TS]

  money into it and what it I have all these books [TS]

  yeah it's all these hilarious free pop business books and I had like three or [TS]

  four then like game fire business game fire app the gamification is a future [TS]

  it's like well yeah of course the fucking games one looks like we tried to [TS]

  game if I facebook to make it stickier but actually the game is just a game [TS]

  I it's I don't think that's surprising I i think that business model emerges [TS]

  yeah there's constraint on the app store and how do you perfectly optimized to [TS]

  constraint [TS]

  well you just say yeah whatever application have thirty percent but [TS]

  we're just gonna invent a machine that pulls money oh yeah i'm in it we were [TS]

  not necessarily even deliver value behind like the dopamine rush of 20 more [TS]

  minutes of this game [TS]

  well I think and I think that those companies in particular uh I'm sure they [TS]

  would if Apple just said next year across-the-board we're just changing it [TS]

  from 7032 8515 for everything [TS]

  I'm sure they wouldn't refuse the extra money but i feel like the in-app [TS]

  purchase companies that you know the the game companies there that they're just [TS]

  fine with the 7030 split because the apples you know literally made this [TS]

  machine that lets them just pull money out of people's pockets [TS]

  I don't think I I don't even think about two-thirty personally I don't think so [TS]

  aight they they're selling a product at zero cost it costs nothing to make and [TS]

  nothing to distribute and all right just machine anyway so I look I think that's [TS]

  one that's like there was the big leveling of the platform war there's the [TS]

  big leveling of the app market that it's like settled and then you just look [TS]

  around and it's like [TS]

  what is we are gonna happen is AR the thing is how on earth are we going to [TS]

  distribute the media at all right like if we can't if people are moving to apps [TS]

  not browsers what are the apps are going to use but we can't get a nap in the [TS]

  store because that's really hard and no publisher app outside of maybe a handful [TS]

  of new york times app some really taken off and even then they haven't not [TS]

  there's not as there's not a great feed reader on the phone okay we gotta deal [TS]

  with Twitter and Facebook ok [TS]

  all they want is video oh my god YouTube is the second biggest search engine in [TS]

  the world and no never thinks about it [TS]

  those are all those are all agents of chaos right there their forces to create [TS]

  just a lot of innovation because people are trying to figure out like can I win [TS]

  this game can win all the games i think that's fascinating I think that's [TS]

  fundamentally a technology story right it's its people understand the [TS]

  constraints of platforms where the platform's iOS sports the app store or [TS]

  it's you know whatever happens inside Facebook's algorithm or whatever happens [TS]

  inside of Google search [TS]

  I that there's a remarkable amount of innovation investment there but there's [TS]

  no answers at all like it is a complete moment of change and i think that's just [TS]

  really interesting like I think it is often confusing for people who are [TS]

  investing in that confusion tends to leak out into the public consciousness [TS]

  but I don't think it's all that confusing for people who have phones and [TS]

  are constantly being served kind of like everyone's best effort to figure out [TS]

  what the future is it's got to be on your list i mean but that in talking [TS]

  about inflection points is transportation [TS]

  oh yeah and so many different ways it's just astounding it's the the the the [TS]

  ride services like uber and lyft which themselves are completely piggyback on [TS]

  the ubiquity of smartphones right there is no Hooper without iPhones and [TS]

  androids that are always on the internet and can tap a button right it doesn't [TS]

  exist there's no way that that happens before 2008 it it it wouldn't work [TS]

  how-how'd it [TS]

  how did you call the central dispatcher it's funny not eating with their work [TS]

  our services before they just weren't [TS]

  they provide you with a lot of information right and you didn't use [TS]

  them as frequently and or at least normal people didn't use them as [TS]

  frequently as it was the most decadent thing in the world right and what's [TS]

  funny is like you were has an Alexis skill in I i calling over and couple [TS]

  times a week but just like yelling at the echo and I'm like what am I am like [TS]

  back to square one in Brooklyn not gonna just called a car service just now it's [TS]

  a robot and it's literally the same interaction right calls i talked to [TS]

  something one of the funniest times you and I ever got together was we we hung [TS]

  out after we got our Apple watch review units [TS]

  yeah there were briefings in New York and you [TS]

  it's like we kind of bumped into each other i forget if i went first you want [TS]

  first I think I when I was ahead of you and I just said I'm gonna go across the [TS]

  street and get a cup of coffee if you want to meet will meet and it was like [TS]

  like we tried to use the watch to help her remember the past [TS]

  yeah let me just watch the spinner yeah and then I was like now showing up for [TS]

  blocks away like it spun for a minute and like cancelled out three times and [TS]

  then got the location wrong by like four blocks [TS]

  I mean that first day with the watch was among the most i don't you felt this I [TS]

  felt this because it Jonna actually topic we texted quite a bit because [TS]

  we're the only people we knew what the Watchers and even joanna stern yep [TS]

  and so the computer for all of us are best friends super best friends for help [TS]

  extending heartbeats to eat it was like that i kept forgetting our parties from [TS]

  like Apple PR people and I was like I know your hearts racing selectivity a [TS]

  minute I'm but I just remember that moment I don't this is true for you that [TS]

  was to me one of those inflection point moments and it kind of a different way [TS]

  where it was [TS]

  here's Apple they have been under all this pressure to put out their next [TS]

  category of products [TS]

  here's this product and I was terrified that i would get it wrong and be the guy [TS]

  who called the ipad nonsense or be them / . and call the ipod you know was it [TS]

  like no wireless lame [TS]

  I'm and I just remember that whole . i was like i think this thing is kind of [TS]

  slow and a little bit [TS]

  SE and it's just really interesting now with watch 30 if you use a bunch i mean [TS]

  i've been playing with here and there like it's they just they just fixed all [TS]

  the slop [TS]

  yep right and it's like they made it fast like that's the thing that should [TS]

  have done from the beginning [TS]

  yeah I don't I talked about on my show last week with Marco Arment but i really [TS]

  had so I think it's worth repeating [TS]

  I really think that they they released it too early [TS]

  yeah as a product and I see why and I think it's exactly what you just said is [TS]

  that the the pressure from the outside to give us you know show us that you can [TS]

  still do something new without steve jobs there was so overwhelming that I [TS]

  think it caused them to make like a unforced error [TS]

  yeah and who knows maybe it was the right thing to do it's sort of on Apple [TS]

  like to release something early you know to you know released early and often is [TS]

  the the sort of open source mantra and apple is sort of the note we're going to [TS]

  make you wait we're going to make you wait we're going to release later than [TS]

  everybody else but it's going to be the best sort of company and that's and I [TS]

  think with the watch they went released early and maybe it was the right way to [TS]

  go because maybe you know there's ICL awful lot of Apple watches these days i [TS]

  was at I get told you i was in new york last week I spent I saw him all over the [TS]

  place on the streets of New York it's it's a really popular device so maybe [TS]

  they were right to release it when they did but boy I'll tell you the the watch [TS]

  is three is it's like oh this is it and yeah i feel like i got it wrong i feel [TS]

  like this probably my biggest regret in recent years is that my room initial [TS]

  reviews plural because I weren't it died i think i was a little too i was [TS]

  confused i was confused by the watch which I think when I reread my Apple my [TS]

  early Applewhite reviews from last year i think that the confusion shows it [TS]

  wasn't that I praised it too much I don't feel like I missed the fact that [TS]

  like apps are too slow and stuff like that but i just i was confused and so [TS]

  therefore my review is confused [TS]

  yeah i mean the only you know we we did this huge thing like eat I [TS]

  everyone about this a few months ago and I time is a time is blurry for me but I [TS]

  was like it slow night tonight that's all you have to say [TS]

  yeah and it's like it get nails it right let that they've tried to make it faster [TS]

  presented this many hardware and get faster and i think that what i noticed [TS]

  that WC this year was that there is an intentionality to apple that I think [TS]

  I've been missing recently right everything they did at wec felt like [TS]

  okay we like shotgun down a million ideas was very unhappily like there's a [TS]

  lot of confusion out there but now we're like we're focusing like here's what [TS]

  we're doing to Mac here's what we're doing at the TV here is already going to [TS]

  watch you like just down the line [TS]

  here's a bunch of very intentional decisions about our products i think [TS]

  it's going to bode well for them but i do think the other my mom I think you're [TS]

  absolutely right about transportation by the way I'm is a huge inflection point [TS]

  the other one I was going to mention was sort of that the unbundling of software [TS]

  is an idea from the consumer consciousness that instead of getting a [TS]

  nap or getting a package of software or you know 50 floppy disk from Microsoft [TS]

  Word or whatever used to now software just constantly around you and updating [TS]

  in all kinds of ways that is a huge inflection point the idea that you can't [TS]

  sell something to someone that you're going to sell this like ongoing [TS]

  experience or people just make expectations of things will silently get [TS]

  better around them that's going to lead to a lot of chaos as well because you [TS]

  can that gives you license to put out bad products and say it's the first [TS]

  version will get better i think we see that constantly I'm and it creates this [TS]

  enormous consumer perception that you're going to get better stuff for free all [TS]

  the time and I think those are how how the world shakes out in there is going [TS]

  to be very complicated for people trying to get money [TS]

  I think I'm balance it's good for the consumer but you know it's like it's [TS]

  ridiculous to me that you have a tivo i think i have a tivo it's ridiculous to [TS]

  my tivo doesn't get a software update like everyday right because it's [TS]

  constantly connected and that's sort of my experts my xbox is updating every 90 [TS]

  seconds [TS]

  i'm at i think that's just that's a big moment for Apple to figure out how to be [TS]

  a part of that instead of saying okay the platform changed the platform [TS]

  changed [TS]

  I'm we were at the code conference we're talking some people from google and [TS]

  they're like you know we schedule google i/o and it always feels like chaos [TS]

  because it doesn't align with any other product cycles and we don't care we just [TS]

  let people shop it's like show-and-tell like what's this team working on the [TS]

  record about this far it'll be out next year [TS]

  like that's how Google thinks about their software I i think apple has sort [TS]

  of gotten to that too I feel like one of the things as is as this year's WWDC [TS]

  sort of cements and and in my mind is that to me they they have these four [TS]

  platforms and they know exactly what they are and you know you know there and [TS]

  watch in particular the you know in addition to the fact that they really [TS]

  have fixed the while everything is slow like stuff is not slow anymore date [TS]

  they've got they themselves have a much better idea of what the hell people [TS]

  where Apple watches were like and the increased focus on fitness is a huge [TS]

  part of that I mean that wasn't really even mentioned in the original you know [TS]

  pitch [TS]

  I mean it was there that was sort of a little bit more but it's a little bit [TS]

  more like health than fitness and now it's like the default watch face shows [TS]

  you that circles the the filling that but they realize that's what people are [TS]

  doing so that they're much more the watch does less its there's far less [TS]

  going on the watch and its way way more way easier to understand and they know [TS]

  what people are doing with it and I feel like with the mac to I feel like I feel [TS]

  like the whole making the mac a little bit more like iOS like they're done with [TS]

  that like they've they've done the nips and tucks where they thought hey some of [TS]

  these ideas from iOS would make sense on the mac but at this point it's like now [TS]

  let's just let the MACD the Mac what's up with the max you think rightly like [TS]

  so many Mac lines are just kind of their long in the tooth in various ways and I [TS]

  you know I'm desperately waiting for new macbook pro just desperately waiting our [TS]

  video editors and unicom trash cans the Mac the Mac Pro's they're like this [TS]

  thing is ridiculous like [TS]

  there but there are video there's some of them have started using the vr gaming [TS]

  pcs because their way faster than that pro and obviously because our newer but [TS]

  like where's that next great Mac hardware security hold that thought [TS]

  let me do a sponsor read and write that you know i love because I love to have a [TS]

  teaser like that inhale and we'll talk about it i'm going to thank our good [TS]

  friends is a longtime sponsor the show perfect example of a great podcast [TS]

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  low prices modern convenience they own their own factory i always mention this [TS]

  because it to me this is just amazing is that they started sourcing the blades [TS]

  from Germany and they liked them so much that there's something like [TS]

  hundred-year-old blade factory in Germany and they just bought the factory [TS]

  so that's what they do and this is how they work this is the amazing thing is [TS]

  they make their own blades they package them up in the nicest packaging I've [TS]

  ever seen I've said this before 2i will say it again I the only thing i don't [TS]

  like about Harry's is that the packaging is so nice that I often i feel bad [TS]

  throwing it out like when i use up that you know I empty the last blade out of a [TS]

  pack the box is so nice it just the way it closes the way it looks at everything [TS]

  about it it feels like I'm throwing away something I'm supposed to keep but I [TS]

  mean what you going to do with an empty box of blades so why pay 30 years I got [TS]

  to go to a big you know try to get to let you going to pay 30 32 bucks for an [TS]

  eight-pack you get for half that price at Harry's for just 15 bucks you get a [TS]

  razor shaving cream three blade cartridges but if you use this code talk [TS]

  show they don't have the they just have talk show [TS]

  Harry's just talk show but you use that code you'll save five bucks so that [TS]

  makes the 15-dollar kit which is an amazing deal [TS]

  just ten bucks it's almost like getting it free so go to Harry's com har r ys [TS]

  dot-com remember the code talk show without the just talk show and you'll [TS]

  say five bucks [TS]

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  I'm where were with her the mac whether the Mac I i talked about this last week [TS]

  too but my biggest regret on my live show with with Phil Schiller and Craig [TS]

  federighi the one question I had on my list and just didn't get to was [TS]

  professional people are very concerned because it really looks at the evidence [TS]

  you know shows it really looks like Apple is so focused on consumer products [TS]

  iphones and ipads primarily that the focus on professional products like the [TS]

  mac pro and the macbook pros has dropped and even on the mac the Machine nights [TS]

  been updated the most regularly is the macbook one port thing [TS]

  yeah that which is not you know not a pro device so you know I wish I would [TS]

  have asked didn't get to me every try to use a right now macbook for any period [TS]

  of time now I used one for a couple of days this past week now I because I've [TS]

  never really had access to another than to just kick the tires and a store or [TS]

  something like that yes a dieter bohn the executive urge likes that's his [TS]

  computer swears by getting back didn't use publish the photo from the beginning [TS]

  note because to use it to do the live blogging from the keynote he had to put [TS]

  like a like a dongle on the side that gives you know it it's like it plugs [TS]

  into the the one USBC port and then gives him like a couple of USB ports and [TS]

  then it and there's like millions of things but in the yeah because there's [TS]

  no there's no great USBC hub this is true I very at like 90 of them they get [TS]

  really hot like crazy that it's just you know get better [TS]

  it'sit's just take a minute right like it's there on the second generation [TS]

  computer it's fine [TS]

  I i have to do is to go USB CD USB and then use another hub i have a 13-inch [TS]

  macbook pro that is [TS]

  I think coming up on two years old and it is just absolutely nothing wrong with [TS]

  it and so I you know and i tend to use my max for incredibly long periods of [TS]

  time I don't because it just it even today and with dropbox and a couple of [TS]

  other things that make transitioning to a new mac easier than ever before [TS]

  it still isn't easy like just upgrading to a new phone and I've got a bunch of [TS]

  little fiddly stuff on my system like custom perl scripts that reformat [TS]

  markdown and they require libraries from Sipan Sipan is like that the central or [TS]

  you know open-source archive of pearl libraries so every time I get a new mac [TS]

  I've got to install a bunch of little fiddly command-line things like that and [TS]

  I never remember them all and I somewhere I've got like a note you know [TS]

  that says here he's like the 20 steps to get you set up on that so I don't like I [TS]

  just don't want to do it and that i am at the point I've been there for a while [TS]

  we're with what i do it faster Mac doesn't really make a difference like [TS]

  ever since I've gone to solid state drives yeah ever since I've gone there i [TS]

  I've never thought anything was slow in my back so I just don't upgrade so I [TS]

  feel like it'll be a couple of years before i get a new laptop at least [TS]

  another two years I bet unless something some disaster happens to my macbook pro [TS]

  I'll and when that happens i expect that I will buy the macbook one port because [TS]

  I don't plug anything into mind my macbook so it's interesting because I is [TS]

  in a year like you know that the classic Mac advice was always by like as much [TS]

  computers you can afford [TS]

  yes I just always by the top and one yep I'm but you know my wife had like a [TS]

  macbook air and it was just this endless interminable wait for them to put out a [TS]

  new computer that was meaningfully better than hers [TS]

  yep is you there faster but like and there's a Retina screen around the [TS]

  corner so I bought her I was going to buy are the 2 2015 1 port macbook but [TS]

  that thing wasn't actually faster than her computer and our computers dog so it [TS]

  was just like this move to consumer machines this focus the [TS]

  less powerful processors it kinda doesn't matter if you're always buying [TS]

  the most expensive fastest one but if you're in that consumers own you end up [TS]

  in this black hole sometimes of its you can just buy the same computer with a [TS]

  slightly faster chip or you can just wait it out and so there's the big jump [TS]

  and but I'm with you on solid state drives I've my imac at home is like 2011 [TS]

  and I put a huge SSD in it and like this is great haha but you gotta guess you [TS]

  gotta get the one with the retina screen [TS]

  yeah that's right that's what I'm waiting right now even at this point you [TS]

  might as well wait till they do a new one got away in it then it's like a [TS]

  whole big thing in that one my imac in particular that is like now five years [TS]

  of random fiddly shit right now if there's like a plex library that if you [TS]

  breathe on it everything breaks like it's like crazy and but I my bigger I [TS]

  think this thing you're saying my bigger concern is these pro machine yeah [TS]

  because if the in NVR is a big inflection point I think something [TS]

  something we're i think that the mac pro in the macbook pro probably two [TS]

  different discussions there's a visit my what I think it is a mystery to me and i [TS]

  think that the reason I think the problem with the mac pro is that I think [TS]

  Apple truly just isn't as interested in that market and even though they had [TS]

  probably themselves are probably one of the biggest users of them you know I've [TS]

  been extended engineers at Apple who use mac pros but as a business it's just not [TS]

  meaningful whereas the macbook pro is actually big business it it you know I [TS]

  it's probably the most profitable mac that they make [TS]

  I i would think just you know in terms of not like on one unit being most [TS]

  problems it's a multiply as many as they sell by how much profit they make its [TS]

  super popular it may not be as may not sell in the great great numbers as the [TS]

  lower-priced macbook airs in the macbook one but because it's so much more [TS]

  expensive and lots of people buy them so i can't think that they're disinterested [TS]

  so my guess is that there's something going on like where the new ones that [TS]

  are coming out that they're just not ready even though they were supposed to [TS]

  be because I really thought a couple months ago it seemed like steam was [TS]

  really building up that they were probably going to announce them at WWDC [TS]

  and then [TS]

  it came and went in and they didn't and I can't help but think that that's [TS]

  coming soon though the Macanudo on the other hand it's just baffling to me [TS]

  900 days it's like 920 days at this point without an update [TS]

  yeah it's crazy and they put out with such fanfare right we can innovate where [TS]

  was a candidate my ass candidate my ass [TS]

  I it's just that there's a lot of like I had this like visual metaphor the whole [TS]

  tech industry it's like a like a long balloon and you squeeze it all the money [TS]

  goes somewhere else there's a lot of money [TS]

  it's to sit through this i don't think about it like i'm a lot of the money [TS]

  that was like focused on let's make apps for phones or let's do anything fun [TS]

  platformer make actually making you found another disaster business idea i'm [TS]

  a lot of that money is going towards using the screens and processors and [TS]

  chips and stuff in going to the are in like building the our experiences in its [TS]

  it this moment it's just weird and you know obviously Apple entered classically [TS]

  enters the market down the line but because the mac pro isn't able to do any [TS]

  of that stuff [TS]

  it's not even in the conversation there's nothing about the our [TS]

  conversation that even tangentially related sample as far as i can tell and [TS]

  that's really it just really interesting to me because I think a lot of those [TS]

  people prefer to use mac they just don't yeah I'm I my hope is that it's just [TS]

  like a a bunch of constraints that all have to be lined up and somewhat some of [TS]

  them are are holding back and with the mac pro my hope is that it's that they [TS]

  want to put out of retina 5k cinema display they want a new mac pro that can [TS]

  drive it right and some maybe the displays not ready yet and therefore [TS]

  they don't want to don't want to release the mac pro without the display to drive [TS]

  it or maybe its vice versa where they can't release the display [TS]

  yeah before the mac pro is ready and maybe the macbook pros it's the same way [TS]

  where they want to beat you you can you know doc your macbook pro and had have [TS]

  it connect to this beautiful standalone retina cinema display [TS]

  that's my hope is that they're just trying to get all of that stuff and [TS]

  they're all going to come out at the same time you're i didn't think i would [TS]

  say that is the most optimistic thing i've ever heard from you and it's is [TS]

  very idea that apple's tied its entire product line she wanting to make a [TS]

  standalone display is kind of incredible [TS]

  well but it's weird it's like five of those things here now I think when they [TS]

  were new when like that the i think i think they used to sell a lot of them I [TS]

  think I i used to see a lot and I you know I don't know what did people do it [TS]

  over to people just bring you guys give them laptops there's everybody just by [TS]

  the right [TS]

  no I mean we were no longer startup people people get computers so most [TS]

  people get and in air you can request something else for the editors have like [TS]

  15 inch pros and an imac and I think it's wild that we get people imax and [TS]

  not mac pros and imacs better like I'm actually sitting in the Box studios [TS]

  right now in its Rosa video editors with imax right so one thing but a lot of [TS]

  people who have a macbook and they take it with them when they sit at their desk [TS]

  it would be nice to dock it too despite and we give them we think we give Him [TS]

  dell monitors now [TS]

  well i think a lot of you know I think Apple has in the past sold a lot of [TS]

  those at this point in recent years it doesn't make any sense because they're [TS]

  still have the thousand-dollar price point and it was by no means a [TS]

  thousand-dollar monitor [TS]

  I mean it's just ridiculous if they come out with a really nice retina 5k one [TS]

  then and it still has that thousand dollar price . then all of a sudden it's [TS]

  super compelling yeah i have seen like happy cog is a web design studio here in [TS]

  Philadelphia and I've always had a couple friends there and they when they [TS]

  set up a new office couple years ago and I can i stop by what they did is [TS]

  everybody who works there got a macbook of whatever you know their choice that [TS]

  they could take with them home and you know to client meetings whatever and at [TS]

  their desk there everybody had a apple cinema display in front of it when they [TS]

  just dock and get power and have a nice big despite so I anybody that's [TS]

  interested in our products folks that's basically how we don't work too but I [TS]

  just think it's it's crazy that they haven't updated the macro for 900 days [TS]

  because the 5k display huge well [TS]

  that is it doesn't really justify why there haven't been any interim updates [TS]

  in between it's like but at this point [TS]

  nobody's looking for like oh well we just put the latest and greatest from [TS]

  Intel in there at this point the new map you know whatever comes out of the [TS]

  macbook it might have the same hardware my our external look but it's got to be [TS]

  a really big upgrade at this point I think well if you think that so that's [TS]

  like interesting and kind of leads in both directions like this [TS]

  consumer-focused like they're bringing consumer the things you traditionally [TS]

  the way it works we get this thought correctly traditionally the way it [TS]

  worked was that all the innovation happened in the enterprise and I would [TS]

  trickle down to consumer stuff and apple's big revolution was they were [TS]

  like what if we cared about people first instead of what your IT guy needs and [TS]

  not i think we agree that has been wildly successful in revolutionary many [TS]

  ways but it's what's interesting to me is it's really much harder to apply the [TS]

  lessons from consumer technology back to what the professionals need in a variety [TS]

  of ways and like I don't need the mac pro to be beautiful [TS]

  I think you're right the macbook pro is a different story i canti the mac pro to [TS]

  look like the quadrant hundred and have like 60 slots you know I can just be a [TS]

  computer [TS]

  I'm that you know like have processor daughter like there's a there's a world [TS]

  in which that thing is still really valuable [TS]

  yeah and people who are working on video for just name one field and any other [TS]

  developers are another like there are you know there's all sorts of things [TS]

  that when you you know and people who are working on swift in particular just [TS]

  because the nature of Swift right now is that you when you have to do a new build [TS]

  everything has to get built and you're waiting you said anytime you know those [TS]

  are people who are still waiting on their computers to do stuff like hate [TS]

  the videos done being added now we just have to spit out the final version will [TS]

  guess what you're sitting there waiting and you need as much speed as you can [TS]

  and those people [TS]

  Dave I don't think they really care too much about the beautiful Darth Vader [TS]

  helmet its style of the thing like they would just take anything anything that [TS]

  just went faster [TS]

  yeah give it to me bring back the xserve that's it that's my new petition apple [TS]

  and that's funny we know we've done a handful of 360 videos now [TS]

  and when we are rendering and interviewed Michelle Obama and we like [TS]

  shot in 360 and we are it's actually not that colleges that premier plug-in and [TS]

  just like works then you gotta render it and we were I mean we just brought every [TS]

  computer in this place every mac that we add to its knees and including are pros [TS]

  and we were like yeah that we hit the wall like if you want to participate in [TS]

  this next wave of spherical video or 360 video review our video were there so [TS]

  many arguments about the terms i think right but if you want to participate in [TS]

  that these machines almost none of them are really powerful enough to do it i [TS]

  think that's that's when my chaos like that's another inflection point it's [TS]

  gonna get a generation of video creators who were brought up on iMovie on their [TS]

  plastic macbook pro macbooks they're gonna be like well maybe I'll get a [TS]

  gaming pc with an oculus helmet and it's fast enough for me to cut a 360 video [TS]

  gaming pc with an oculus helmet and it's fast enough for me to cut a 360 video [TS]

  I don't know that's gonna happen but it's it's just another one of those [TS]

  moments when the mom there's a new kind of market over there and it's going to [TS]

  develop on its own terms and I think again [TS]

  ok like the are could fail if you ask the people here who report on VR day in [TS]

  day out like this is a mass every day as a best of intentions in the sci-fi [TS]

  future is real and it's funded go to the brand activation and ride the roller [TS]

  coaster but consumer the are could just flop and or could be the most successful [TS]

  never happened I think that there's so much space in there for different [TS]

  different ways of things to work to happen that it's going to be really [TS]

  confusing for a while but also incredibly fascinating [TS]

  yeah so you're waiting on a macbook pro how old how old is the one you have [TS]

  right now I 2012-2013 as pretty old so I guess it's coming i mean that one's [TS]

  definitely coming to mac mac pro I don't know but the MacBook Pros have got to be [TS]

  coming soon [TS]

  it's it's you know and again and is my tie into the next segment of the show my [TS]

  other theory i think it's wrong i would definitely bet against it but maybe it's [TS]

  possible is if the iphone is moving to lightning port headphones [TS]

  maybe they add a lightning port to max so that you can use the same headphones [TS]

  maybe aids funny i was i was my friend question differently what ports will [TS]

  they take away rights like it'd be crazy to start adding portraits right well [TS]

  take away the headphone port [TS]

  yeah I take what you take away the headphone port you could make I don't [TS]

  know if you could do this on pro machine you could take away those standard USB [TS]

  ports and put on USB seaports that's absolutely move [TS]

  i D is it time to take a thunderbolt because USBC can get it up on a [TS]

  thunderbolt loss like yeah or isn't there like a there's like a thunderbolt [TS]

  three that it like it's very confusing to me yeah there's a wonderful three of [TS]

  the same connector which is the same connectors us bc which sounded canyon us [TS]

  I'm telling you it's just fucking chaos everywhere you look it's great it's [TS]

  super fun it's like but it's chaos it's the idea that I was and I we are going [TS]

  to talk about from ports but it's not like i did this chart of ports and [TS]

  looking at the back of all these macs like confirm all these ports [TS]

  and it's just hilarious that for the longest time we had motive in print and [TS]

  print reports but they were the same port have different labels on them like [TS]

  through time it's like what were we thinking why did we do that and now we [TS]

  just have these like rows of USB ports you can do anything with an hour [TS]

  collapsing then and now [TS]

  now the standards are interchangeable with it the ports are different and now [TS]

  the reporter me the same with the standards are different i don't think [TS]

  they're gonna add a lightning port i don't think so either [TS]

  if you'll just feels mess it feels message to me and it also feels like [TS]

  there's a very clean line up until now we're lightening is it is a port and you [TS]

  know you just combine it with the 30-pin adapter which it replace those two ports [TS]

  were for iOS devices and ipods and never on the mac and all the ports on a Mac [TS]

  were never on iOS devices and adding lightning to the mac just so you can use [TS]

  the same headphones it it it sounds good if you just want to use the same [TS]

  headphones but it blurring that line of what devices have a lightning port and [TS]

  what do they use it for seems weird and also you're going to get a lot of people [TS]

  trying to charge their max right maybe it's just it's the ease it what do you [TS]

  use lightning port for charging your phone you're gonna get a lot of people [TS]

  we're just gonna get charger that lightning port and I don't work rights [TS]

  or it's not like friday i mean well but they're smarter than that but like who [TS]

  knows like that that's a bad outcome right yes you've taught everybody to [TS]

  charge their phones with this thing for the longest time especially if you tried [TS]

  charging your mac with the little phone charger so that's a great finally used [TS]

  for facebook live how long will it take to charge my macbook pro on an iphone [TS]

  just leave it running for four days right and yeah I i don't think people [TS]

  think of writing is anything other than charging i don't think they think of it [TS]

  is the docking board audio Porter there's a million things you can do but [TS]

  i think it is what charges are found and I get all the arguments about why you [TS]

  remove the headphone jack and like fine that they're their arguments there some [TS]

  are better than others [TS]

  I don't think we need to add this port in start making people think of as a [TS]

  headphone jack [TS]

  it's basically what you're doing is you're taking out a headphone jack and [TS]

  you're adding another headphone jack [TS]

  it's just a different thing you haven't really accomplished all that much if you [TS]

  add it to the macbook pro yes I don't think that's what we're waiting for you [TS]

  there [TS]

  I don't know but I'm by I'm desperate spider-man video card in this one is [TS]

  like a little on the fritz it's like just old its essence and nocturnes [TS]

  travelpod we're sitting at WABC live login screen started flickering and I [TS]

  looked at dr indeed indeed cop camera is like taking photos lab was so stressful [TS]

  he's got you know 90 wires officemax look at things like nuclear hot as a guy [TS]

  tellin my computer is about to die like knocks out but let's hope it sticks her [TS]

  so yeah it's time so I would i was using his old actually i have created 2016 14 [TS]

  macbook and i was using his old one for a couple of days [TS]

  I'm it's like if they just merged all of the ideas for the macbook pro with that [TS]

  single port macbook and keep the keyboard full-size keyboard is actually [TS]

  a little bit smaller base from least to my hands I'm that is that is everything [TS]

  I've ever wanted laptop i think that that's what they're doing I mean that I [TS]

  don't I don't [TS]

  to my knowledge actual like schematics have not leaked but the rumors are that [TS]

  it's switching to a like a macbook air style teardrop design and it totally [TS]

  makes sense you know that apple would do that because of their obsession with [TS]

  device than this so and and I used to have a macbook air and the one thing I I [TS]

  totally miss with this macbook pro that I have now is that while i was using the [TS]

  air for a few years I completely became addicted to being able to reach in my [TS]

  bag and know which way that laptop was oriented because it was a wedge shape [TS]

  and I can't I it's like to me now it's like a fifty percent chance like I just [TS]

  come out and if if anything I or I tend to orient it the wrong way more often [TS]

  than not because I'm such an old-school mac user that I remember when my first [TS]

  powerbook had the apple logo the other way [TS]

  oh wow and so I still tend to if I can't do it by feel and I just plop the [TS]

  macbook in front of me looking at the apple logo [TS]

  from my perspective the right way and then I'm like oh shoot I gotta turn [TS]

  around i do it by feel on the hinge right hinges lost but i had to me that's [TS]

  one of the great points it's the graded there's a real usability advantage to [TS]

  the air / macbook 1-port wedge shape [TS]

  yeah I think I just need a 15-inch screen it's a bit like it just as simple [TS]

  as that for me [TS]

  right like the 12 inch screen 13 train is great people on there obviously [TS]

  hugely popular and then every time i used my could get used to this and I go [TS]

  back to my 15 inch pro and it just hits home yeah it's it's where I belong and [TS]

  I'm just desperately waiting for them to bring back here to bring this this [TS]

  screen size to that design i guess my biggest question about it [TS]

  I can't help but think that they're coming soon my question is would they [TS]

  would they release them at the same event in September where they do this [TS]

  the iphone like man it seems like September's so it's a blow operate yeah [TS]

  well last year they did it with the pro they put the ipad pro in the same event [TS]

  as a the iphone and they introduced they all new Apple TV at the same event so [TS]

  it's not like they're unwilling to share the stage at the the iphone events and [TS]

  maybe because the everybody seems to think you know that the this new iphone [TS]

  isn't really going to look different that it's and therefore it's a little [TS]

  bit you know if it doesn't look different there's a little bit less [TS]

  excitement [TS]

  therefore it needs something to share the event with so many right now if you [TS]

  look at where they are that September event is bonkers right it's and new [TS]

  iPhones it's macbook pros hopefully it is the watch it is potentially new ipad [TS]

  air like it it's stacked I'm well no there will be an ipad air [TS]

  why not oh I think that there I i think that i don't think they'll do a new ipad [TS]

  air i think that the ipad pros are the only things that'll never get updated [TS]

  and eventually the ipad air what will happen is they'll come out with new ipad [TS]

  pros [TS]

  and i'll just keep these ipad pros that we have today and slot them into the [TS]

  price points where the ipad air is now I don't think they're ever gonna release [TS]

  another device that has air in the name tonight airs did they don't have a [TS]

  device called the ipad right now so is my standard ipad you do you think that's [TS]

  just gone [TS]

  yeah because i think that the I think they're going to do like what they do [TS]

  with the phones [TS]

  it's just to populate the lower price points with two and three-year-old [TS]

  devices so everything will just be I've had press I yeah that's the only [TS]

  question is I don't understand how the marketing works on that if like a year [TS]

  from now when there's a new iPad pro how do you have you know i guess you just [TS]

  have cheaper ipad pros and they somehow make it clear you know why you'd want to [TS]

  get the bigger one for the more expensive one when we actually it's [TS]

  actually i could get offering the same question about the macbook pro what at [TS]

  this point for a new macbook pro makes it pro other than it has a real [TS]

  processor not a quorum [TS]

  yeah but it's the performance i guess the ports right i mean it's like Pro [TS]

  users are the ones more like you to quote-unquote need the ports [TS]

  yeah it's a agency it you know you just all used to make sense there's like four [TS]

  boxes in a grid and now it's the the blurriness cake it's chaos rights even [TS]

  the ipad line to me is how many skills are there and it's what that what makes [TS]

  the one the pro right now is it has the pencil and it has the smarts connector [TS]

  that but you could make an argument that every I pension happens i think that's [TS]

  argument you're making it will eventually so what makes the pro the pro [TS]

  again in it that to me is it's there's a lot there's kind of a lot of flex apples [TS]

  naming right now reflects flux and apples naming it's just I'm curious to [TS]

  see how well that settles down like how do they start communicating consumers [TS]

  like this is the model for people who do work with these and this is the model [TS]

  for everybody else and maybe answers that there is no change and I just get [TS]

  rid of the word privilege Thomas iPads yeah because there are other reason i [TS]

  don't think that they will come out with anything and [TS]

  to device called ipad air is just that the the ipad pro at least you know did [TS]

  both of them but especially the 9.7 inch one it's not like it's heavier or [TS]

  thicker than the ipad yeah exact same thickness and same low weight so there's [TS]

  no difference like one of the things that there was more to me more clarity [TS]

  in the naming was when they were really selling two types of laptops mac book [TS]

  air and macbook pro the air is the one by definition that is thinner and [TS]

  lighter and the pro is thicker and heavier because it that offered more [TS]

  performance and right they think it signified trade-offs right like that and [TS]

  in the middle you had what i think is one of the best mix ever made the black [TS]

  plastic macbook yeah and which was like the perfect compromise of all of those [TS]

  things and then the AP wanted you just want to prioritize how then it was you [TS]

  can pick an air if you want to prioritize the powerful was against its [TS]

  size you pick the pro but that those days are over and we think it's appears [TS]

  at the same time ms is making backpack so you can put full gaming pcs and so [TS]

  you can walk around VR headset so maybe this is aren't quite as open as we think [TS]

  but that that's like to me it's at the you started out by saying this apples [TS]

  relentless consumer focus has let it down a path where it's fairly clear how [TS]

  things will go but it's also I think becoming more clear that that is not [TS]

  necessarily the only path whereas I think for the longest time apples [TS]

  overwhelmingly good taste and sense of what the consumer market needed made it [TS]

  pretty obvious that they were on the only correct path and now you just see [TS]

  there's there's a lot of ways to kind of cut it and apple's big advantage as far [TS]

  as i can tell is that they own the best processor design group and had they had [TS]

  I think that I I think that's fair to say I really do and it's it's you know [TS]

  it is a tremendous advantage right except for the fact that and you know [TS]

  the maxies until chips right to cornell and for now anyway and they obviously [TS]

  have operating systems of people prefer to use and [TS]

  in a large margins so but if you wanna personally backside if everybody's using [TS]

  intel chips and like throwing a different form factors all over the [TS]

  place [TS]

  Apple set of trade-offs is not necessarily this moment the rights of [TS]

  trade-offs like you just have to want to use mac and you get whatever happens you [TS]

  yeah and i personally would rather use macros . almost anything [TS]

  well I've nhp thing uh which one the specter yeah I not in person i read [TS]

  Joanna's review where diverse she cuts the cheese [TS]

  yeah joanna is it a dear friend of mine anything good friend of yours and she [TS]

  just wanted super procedures business journalism or denied that the line oh I [TS]

  or two nights ago i think and i was sitting there thinking didn't watch the [TS]

  cheese video I i was the backstory and hopefully she's going to be on the show [TS]

  soon sometime in the next week she was going to be on this week and it just [TS]

  didn't work out scheduling wise and she said she literally said to me you should [TS]

  rely on I would listen to that and I was like that what that's a great idea i'll [TS]

  see you realize that but yes you did just win an award for videos it's an [TS]

  air-traffic 11 but I'm i did this Specter to me is it's the first good you [TS]

  know that there's always been a question I think we ran this post and gadget [TS]

  years ago [TS]

  what is the windows laptop right like what's the one that when you like i want [TS]

  to buy windows laptop it's the one that you say you're going to buy what it used [TS]

  to be a thinkpad in my opinion [TS]

  yeah and then you know when i'm about to my old sketchy in the middle layer and [TS]

  they're a lot better now but kinda sorta and they even those were kind of loaded [TS]

  with like garbage and there was any number of bad dowels and people bought [TS]

  the HP spectre is the first one a long time like yes that that's the one you [TS]

  should buy even perhaps more than microsoft's on surface book which I i [TS]

  think it's like a beautiful piece of design it with many confused ideas about [TS]

  how large and heavy a tablet you'd like to use in your life [TS]

  yeah I'm but it sits beautifully designed but i would love to see that [TS]

  the team that designed Microsoft's surface [TS]

  a notebook with the detachable screen i would love to see the exact same design [TS]

  team to do a laptop that doesn't have a detachable screen gotta do it sometime [TS]

  right it's like it's they made it detachable just to not piss off dell [TS]

  yeah and it's like something like that and every single thing about the device [TS]

  that I find if he other than the whole mac vs windows thing but just as it as a [TS]

  device turned off is has to do with that the display and that compromises they [TS]

  had to make it to make that work and so did actually comes out to the macro and [TS]

  mac pro and you know there were lots of rumors about problems with surface books [TS]

  that were somewhat related to sky like and I'm pretty sure apple just was like [TS]

  you know what sky like it's kind of buggy and kind of got rushed out there [TS]

  were just talking to touch it and I've definitely heard in the the weight the [TS]

  way that I've heard about that the most is the issues of the surface book so who [TS]

  knows I've often asked this question to me it's an interesting it's just when [TS]

  you're talking to people about tech is what would you rather use would you [TS]

  rather use a macbook hardware running windows or a pc laptop running Mac os10 [TS]

  how does the trackpad work on both of these that's a great question right it's [TS]

  like so you're saying you would probably take the windows pc laptop running Mac [TS]

  os10 if you could be assured that you have a trackpad that was up this you [TS]

  know pretty good yeah sure but I don't know if it's like Windows fault like if [TS]

  you install windows [TS]

  well they were it works pretty well I guess yeah I I at this point just [TS]

  because of the how long in the tooth is if you assure me that the track that's [TS]

  going to work well i would take a newer more higher-performing windows laptop [TS]

  right now I would take even various mac OS i would even take a a pc with a [TS]

  crummy trackpad running Mac os10 then run windows on a mac just because I'm so [TS]

  mentally [TS]

  proficient in the mac environment the software so much more important to me [TS]

  than the hardware it's like the fact that apple also makes the best hardware [TS]

  is just like a very nice that's lucky for me because the the OS platform that [TS]

  I want to use you know happens to have the best hardware to be used criminal [TS]

  uh not like seriously i mean i-i couldn't I did to me I just couldn't i [TS]

  would always feel like I've got handcuffs on using just a browser so [TS]

  it's that's same way over now they're doing android absolutely very excited to [TS]

  see how that works out but and I i wrote about this i bought my mother a [TS]

  Chromebook pixel instead of a retina macbook for Christmas because I like i [TS]

  said this earlier in the show [TS]

  I'm terrified of her using new software like it just it just a cruise back to be [TS]

  in the form of support calls and so I was like you know how to make me a list [TS]

  of what she doesn't like they're all it's all the web right like everything [TS]

  she knows on the web and so I brought us Chromebook and what's interesting and I [TS]

  never felt as for chrome OS is so close to a mac even down to the way the mouse [TS]

  cursor looks that it's it's like a seamless transition if you're not out [TS]

  looking for photoshop right it's like if you use a mac with chrome and I just [TS]

  slide in a pixel you might not notice for a minute [TS]

  except for the fact the hardware's a little bit different and it's it's that [TS]

  close and it's amazing to me it's nothing it's obviously been seven months [TS]

  since i bought her this computer [TS]

  my mother is in love with this thing and what she's in love with the most is [TS]

  because she generally uses for iphone and ipad when she gets home she still [TS]

  she's touches the screen constantly and she's like opening chrome and then she [TS]

  scrolled she doesn't scroll the mouse or the trackpad she strolls on the screen [TS]

  and she clicks on links on the screen and it's actually that everybody i know [TS]

  with the pixel is like yeah that's it just starts happening to you [TS]

  it's crazy it's absolutely crazy to me but it's it's so close to a mac [TS]

  experience that it [TS]

  it comforts you and then it like leads you down a hole in the path I I'm not [TS]

  surprised to hear that and I'd you know I think that you know I i hope that the [TS]

  maxies around for a good long time but I think it's clear that for most people [TS]

  Mac or Windows is overkill it's the fact that they're so capable and that there's [TS]

  so much you can do at a technical level with native apps in a way that you can [TS]

  install your own software and customize the user interface and all the you know [TS]

  quote-unquote power user stuff that you can do and mac and windows is completely [TS]

  over the heads and irrelevant for a good 95 96 97 percent of the world and when [TS]

  you give them of those other people a device that don't have those sharp edges [TS]

  and there is no way to miss configure the device it is such a relief for them [TS]

  it's it is such a it's just like a huge weight off their shoulders i remember [TS]

  talking to a friend [TS]

  there's a couple WBC's ago who's father-in-law was i forget what he was [TS]

  and he wasn't like finance or something like that but he was also sort of like [TS]

  that the guy you know is his career but he was like the guy in the office who is [TS]

  also with a pc enthusiasts [TS]

  yeah and he was like a world-class excel expert you know he could do one of those [TS]

  tables called the super complex tables in Excel pivot tables hit tables yeah so [TS]

  he totally understood pivot tables inside and out was always a windows guy [TS]

  and when he retired my friend you know he was like and I'm sick of all this [TS]

  stuff on Windows you know there's so many problems with that I don't need [TS]

  excel anymore and so my friend tried to get him to use a mac and got a mac [TS]

  and it just never stuck I mean the guy's a tech enthusiasts and it's just never [TS]

  stuck and then he bought himself an ipad and just just went flying just like and [TS]

  net just his mac just sits there gathering dust and out its he just uses [TS]

  an ipad for everything and this is a guy who is sort of a technical expert but [TS]

  now that he doesn't need excel it and it's the fact that he'd like the he [TS]

  knows that he can't miss configure there's nothing you can do on an iPad [TS]

  that will render it you know [TS]

  all right I shouldn't have done that it should have installed that it over wrote [TS]

  my old you know the shared library and now this app doesn't work there's [TS]

  nothing like that i actually i'm wondering using Apple's ever going to [TS]

  put a full desktop class browser on the ipad rights it's like close but it's [TS]

  it's just not there [TS]

  no I think that the safari on the ipad is exactly what they wanted to be [TS]

  especially now that they've increased the number of tabs right and you can do [TS]

  that the sandals simultaneous screen thing [TS]

  yeah that's the whole back for me it's I I could I could maybe get away with [TS]

  using ipad for work but not having the desktop web browser I did it when I when [TS]

  I when I reviewed the ipad pro the big one back in September and I really tried [TS]

  to live full time on it for like two weeks and I kind i have so many little [TS]

  like I said like little things that i've installed and customized on my mac over [TS]

  the years and I never never stopped missing them and it was always like when [TS]

  I gave up you know when i finish my review and and went back to my Mac it [TS]

  was a huge relief [TS]

  the one thing that happened to me though was that after two weeks on the ipad pro [TS]

  I did start touching my macbook screen and I'm sort of animals and don't ever [TS]

  touch my back my screen like it's entirely possible i think unless [TS]

  somebody's snuck into my office here it's entirely possible that no fingertip [TS]

  has ever touched my imac screen haha yeah I mean I guess I never liked think [TS]

  about touching my next year there's nothing but i'll tell you after two [TS]

  weeks of using the ipad pro exclusively I just inside I when I went back to my [TS]

  macbook pro its it just touch the screen without thinking usually for scrolling [TS]

  like yours is some saying there's it that we all think of touchscreen laptops [TS]

  being ridiculous but there there's something there about [TS]

  linking at least the scroll action back to what you do with a touchscreen device [TS]

  and if there's something there and I don't know if it's like the right thing [TS]

  but it's something let me take a one last break here and thank our third and [TS]

  final sponsor and it's our good friends at casper hey they make obsessively [TS]

  engineer mattresses at shockingly fair prices go to Casper calm / the talkshow [TS]

  use that code the talk show this is another one with the thought that I love [TS]

  in the code is a 50 bucks toward your mattress Casper has created one perfect [TS]

  type of mattress in it a sell it directly to consumers eliminating [TS]

  Commission's inflated prices the middleman at the mattress stores it they [TS]

  developed in-house as a sleek design it's delivered in remarkably small boxes [TS]

  i just saw this now that it in Manhattan you can get Casper delivered same day [TS]

  you know this mean I yeah and it how do they deliver on bicycle so right that's [TS]

  how small these boxes are working people put them on like a special rig on their [TS]

  back and they just drive right through manhattan on bicycles and deliver [TS]

  mattresses that's how small the boxes it is amazing it's worth buying and casper [TS]

  mattresses just to see how small the boxes when it shows up at your house or [TS]

  to open it because that's super fun it is very fun it's it is it's the [TS]

  experience anything there is no way that this is going to work there's no way [TS]

  that a nice mattress is coming out of this small box and it is it is a great [TS]

  mattress and the prices are so amazing if you've ever gone mattress shopping [TS]

  you'll know that these prices are great premium mattresses in retail stores [TS]

  usually cost over 1,500 bucks casper mattresses start at five hundred bucks [TS]

  for twin 754 full 854 queen and just nine hundred fifty bucks for a king-size [TS]

  mattress and they're made in America right here in United States and they've [TS]

  made you think I you know this is the big thing [TS]

  do you really want to buy a mattress for 950 bucks get a king-size mattress that [TS]

  you've never even tried that it's completely risk-free free delivery free [TS]

  returns with a hundred knight home trial get it [TS]

  sleep on it for three months and it you can say you know what don't like it [TS]

  you just go on web say it send it back they'll come to your house get out of [TS]

  there no questions asked no hard sell they don't they don't it's not like [TS]

  trying to cancel your cable they'll just say ok that's how confident they are [TS]

  that you're gonna like this mattress i have heard from so many readers who have [TS]

  bought these mattresses and they're like I really thought it was weird buying a [TS]

  mattress online without trying it [TS]

  I so glad i did because this was the best experience I've ever had and going [TS]

  to a regular retail mattress store is not the best experience you're ever [TS]

  going to have [TS]

  so go to Casper calm / the talk show and you'll say fifty bucks off the already [TS]

  great prices [TS]

  okay talk about this headphone port [TS]

  yeah I green do this this is what people are waiting for this is we made him wait [TS]

  like an hour and 45 minutes position [TS]

  what was your headline your headline was removing the headline port is stupid and [TS]

  user hostel youth hostel and student hostel stupid got that which I firmly [TS]

  believe but it's a strong opinion weakly help [TS]

  ah that's and that is why you and I get along that and i hope i feel the same [TS]

  way and my retort some people misinterpret some people are saying that [TS]

  we took it is me saying it would be great to get rid of the headphone port [TS]

  my my summary of my take is more let's wait and see [TS]

  like we don't know yet I don't know maybe you know if there are scenarios [TS]

  there are ways that this could play out where i would say you know what this [TS]

  doesn't just doesn't seem like an improvement [TS]

  yeah so here's basically and I so I do believe it's wrong to take it out and [TS]

  I'd you know it's actually one of the reasons you write something that is just [TS]

  see how people are gonna respond then and like get some counter-arguments [TS]

  right now its like before you do that it's a lot of people think i'm gonna do [TS]

  it theres a river who knows i might suck it's like that's our good let's let's [TS]

  debate but let's let's let's get out there [TS]

  so here's my version of this which is it's it's one of the few places in [TS]

  technology where the ecosystem connects into something much larger than apple or [TS]

  computers or the tech industry it's an ecosystem of how we listen to things in [TS]

  general [TS]

  write an ecosystem has all kinds of facets that we're not taking into [TS]

  account when we just think about a phone or a laptop or you know my USB audio [TS]

  interface here whatever the hell is on there are lots of devices to connect to [TS]

  a headphone jack that I'm less privileged people use I I'm like four [TS]

  people have headphones are gonna make my new headphones or by dongle because the [TS]

  most dominant phone vendor decided it was time there's all kinds of that's [TS]

  just an interesting thing I'm there are tons and tons of accessibility devices [TS]

  plugged into the headphone jack and I i mentioned in my piece and I'd anything [TS]

  like expand on it because i don't want to sound too confident I'm not [TS]

  particularly well versed in but I know it's true and cory doctorow actually [TS]

  wrote another piece that kind of like expanding on which I thought was great i [TS]

  did that for tomorrow [TS]

  yeah . yeah . wing and look it up so that was good and then to me and this is [TS]

  my first . and i actually went to law school because I felt so strongly in [TS]

  college about audio and erm and piracy and napster I once you make almost all [TS]

  the signal chain digital the content industry it cannot help itself it's like [TS]

  it's just it's basic instinct is to try to lock it down and once you start [TS]

  locking it down you start cutting off groups of people who have who wants to [TS]

  do the right thing legally and so they can't because there they have to ask for [TS]

  permission you can't get it and people who are going to do that you should [TS]

  never ask permission let's break so you end up in that zone where you're harming [TS]

  or people that are helping that to me because I'm saying the ecosystem is [TS]

  bigger than computers or phones or Apple or the tech industry it's the ecosystem [TS]

  of how in the world we connect speakers and headphones and other audio devices [TS]

  together once you start fucking with that you start to have these knock-on [TS]

  effects that are almost all negative and are almost all accruing control to some [TS]

  other entity and I think that is really dangerous [TS]

  the one you brought up that i didn't mention because i was talking about it [TS]

  generally and because there's USBC headphones on the world not to use pc [TS]

  phones but you brought up apple owns the licensing program for lightning that if [TS]

  I and so now you have to act ask potentially not only apple for [TS]

  permission to make the connector you might have to go get permission from [TS]

  some you know third-party drm vendor to send Spotify through it or another DRAM [TS]

  vendor to send your license netflix audio through it like I I'm sure that [TS]

  people listening to this who think I'm insane but this is the history of [TS]

  digital signal chains it is always what happens and that's me is the scariest [TS]

  part i but i want to say that to me for everything else other than audio it's [TS]

  always for I iphones and ipads always been lightning or the proprietary 30-pin [TS]

  thing we'll just call it lightning since that's all the relevant today I don't [TS]

  think the world of lightning peripherals is all that restricted I mean it's you [TS]

  know but it's it is certainly different though we're like if you're you get to [TS]

  the airport and you go through security and then you're like sorry I got an hour [TS]

  to go let me listen to a podcast and you realize shit and I didn't pack [TS]

  headphones [TS]

  yeah you know you don't have to worry you're like well I'm out ten bucks i'll [TS]

  just go by you know there's got to be a store here that sells there's probably a [TS]

  store that you can see wherever you are in the airport right i go to any moment [TS]

  you can probably see the place where you can go in the airport and you'll be able [TS]

  to buy headphones and you're not you're not going to be a lot of money [TS]

  you mean if you want to they usually is also a story that'll sell you four [TS]

  hundred dollar pair of bose noise cancelling headphones too but you'll be [TS]

  able to buy a pair of ten dollar at standard had fun of it there was an [TS]

  airline the gonna give you for free [TS]

  it happens all too yeah it's nappy head phones and there's a absolutely you know [TS]

  even in the best-case scenario if this you know pans out there is no headphone [TS]

  jack on the new phone [TS]

  it's absolutely a trade-off and one of the biggest trade off is the universal [TS]

  miss of that Jack so and i don't know maybe it really will be for the worse [TS]

  I'm just saying you know [TS]

  these changes always get people's dander riled up and in the long run it always [TS]

  works out but the reason I'm saying specifically and that's a strong word I [TS]

  pissed off a lot of people this word user hostel is it's not in service of a [TS]

  greater need and it's not in service of greater value so you can't every time [TS]

  apples killed something off there has been a successful technology that is in [TS]

  my view delivered in order of magnitude improvement right so we kill the floppy [TS]

  the cd-rom is sitting there can hold an order of magnitude more storage and we [TS]

  you brought up ethernet jacks in response to my right to kill these are [TS]

  Jax I don't know how they measure this but I'll just claim Wi-Fi is an order of [TS]

  magnitude for convenient to meet or even track which can measure it out of [TS]

  sherman and but there's always some like successor technology where there's some [TS]

  incredible spike in value we kill vga want to DVI digital signals are higher [TS]

  quality than that we kill DVI invented display port the port got smaller and it [TS]

  displays are more capable we want to thunderbolt now we can daisy-chain them [TS]

  for days [TS]

  right like there's some reason that you want to do this thing over and over [TS]

  again with the headphone jack the best arguments for it and I made a little bit [TS]

  of fun you are one apples really good at doing this so we shouldn't have every [TS]

  reason they might help with waterproofing which there are lots of [TS]

  waterproof phones on the market right now that phone jacks and i'll make it [TS]

  thinner and might make more space the battery i don't think that any of those [TS]

  things in isolation or in combination provide an order about the order of [TS]

  magnitude amount of value over the Universalists and the accessibility of [TS]

  adventure [TS]

  that's why I tend to think now at a gut level that the transition that they're [TS]

  going to that the the message from Apple is going to be to go wireless [TS]

  right because that to me is a an advantage and as somebody who owns a [TS]

  pair of wireless your your funds are buds but you got [TS]

  I have the beats whatever they're called had a lot of names they're the ones that [TS]

  are just like the solo tues know another small they're just big just go in your [TS]

  ear and over the eager on their wireless yes [TS]

  cool i was singing at the big noise cancelling cans now i don't know i don't [TS]

  have those and it's you know not getting caught not having a cable that can get [TS]

  caught or that your arm gets called when you're running or bicycling or whatever [TS]

  it is a huge advantage bluetooth kind of sucks though I mean it you know you even [TS]

  linked to my thing where I've been saying for a while where the bluetooth [TS]

  slogan should always be bluetooth it's going to be better next year so that's [TS]

  why I've also started my writing about it and talking about it where I'm saying [TS]

  I think the message from Apple is going to be Wireless not necessarily bluetooth [TS]

  wireless so maybe they'll come up with and again this gets into the whole [TS]

  proprietary very standard thing what if they come up with their thing that is [TS]

  like what lightning is to what USB apples wireless technologies to [TS]

  bluetooth it is an apple only but works proprietary thing and that you can just [TS]

  who knows maybe just use NFC wouldn't even have to plug in a lightning just [TS]

  rub the earphones against your iphone and they're paired right and that solves [TS]

  the macbook dilemma right is looking yes you're only able to pair them if they're [TS]

  blue sheet in particular cells macbook dilemma [TS]

  well or Bluetooth better you know apple bluetooth + + that's you know [TS]

  alright in bluetooth fives it is meteor the fall back to bluetooth so that you [TS]

  could use them on an old macbook you know one that's not the new that I maybe [TS]

  they're holding out and has the new NFC sort of pairing process i don't i'm just [TS]

  imagining and again maybe hon maybe I'm Way too optimistic i'm just a or wishful [TS]

  thinking i don't know but I'm just hoping that they come out you know that [TS]

  the answer is if the headphone jack is going away the answer is we've got these [TS]

  new wireless ones and you're going to be here soon as you use them you're going [TS]

  to be I can't believe I spent all those years with the cable connecting my [TS]

  headphones to my phone because I think and that's why I just think connecting [TS]

  headphones to the Lightning port [TS]

  it it it it just doesn't win and I don't think it's like it isn't it [TS]

  you're gonna have an adapter or you're gonna have one pair of headphones that [TS]

  you lose its it's kind of the same thing the wireless like I almost think they [TS]

  have to lose 5 is here at the standard how it's been talking about it if they [TS]

  go with something like blue 25 which like I said it could be the year because [TS]

  this could be the one I'm then then now you stupid argument where it's okay [TS]

  here's a standard we can put these headphones everywhere [TS]

  I'm you know the the free set on the airplane come with a cheapo adapter for [TS]

  lightning and we can use with your mac ok that's a fine set of arguments but [TS]

  what you do lose over and over and over again is just the the universality of [TS]

  this thing that is literally been around for ever like you know that the quarter [TS]

  and Shaq is like 1898 like there's a reason it sticks around there's a reason [TS]

  that you know Sony tried to build a proprietary Jack with a dongle that [TS]

  could plug that phone into HTC try to do it [TS]

  there's a really great getting to the headphone jack might be land war in Asia [TS]

  right yeah it's like it's it's just everyone has failed to do this and Apple [TS]

  has a unique scale and they have a unique market power I I think [TS]

  unparalleled in the history of consumer goods to just lead people down the road [TS]

  I'm but this might be the one and I just don't know and I I think you're saying [TS]

  we don't know in my take on it is the the amount of obvious risk that you are [TS]

  taking to do this like blindly obvious risk versus the amount of currently [TS]

  available for the benefit is just way lopsided like that this is the reason [TS]

  people say i'm not going to buy a new iphone this year and they're already in [TS]

  the zone where people are beginning to say i'm not going to buy new iphone this [TS]

  year and maybe maybe we're gonna take away this year and they're gonna bring [TS]

  it back on the iphone 7 10 year anniversary it's the most beautiful [TS]

  design everyone's like electron Jack's back and that's other planning to do it [TS]

  like maybe there's a whiteboard somewhere that's like here's what we'll [TS]

  do we'll kill sales this year and next year will bring it back in the sales [TS]

  side [TS]

  like no I doubt it i don't think they could ever bring it back i think I don't [TS]

  I well but this but this is one of those reasons I think that when are already in [TS]

  his own weather sales are starting to plateau because not everybody buys my [TS]

  phone every year and they're trying to get people into that place with their [TS]

  own upgrade plan nearly all the carriers are trying to get you to do it [TS]

  this is one of those like moments when a lot of people would say maybe I don't [TS]

  need a new phone because that sucks [TS]

  yeah it would be interesting to see I mean it'd be interesting to see if it [TS]

  actually you know and and you if sales are disappointing of this new iphone [TS]

  with thing I mean it's with the without the headphone port it might be [TS]

  impossible to say for sure that why but you know because it it might also be you [TS]

  know people say well people are also bored with the design everybody hopes to [TS]

  has a two-year-old iphone 6 they think this phone still looks the same stuff [TS]

  that just hang on for another year and you never know what the reason is for [TS]

  sure of right across an entire population I think the reason they're [TS]

  leaking out early to the journal and others like it's going to look the same [TS]

  is to set those lower yes [TS]

  yeah i think so too there is another explanation for why Apple is doing it [TS]

  that is technical and isn't really about a better solution for audio to users and [TS]

  if if this if the keynote event in September comes and they're not really [TS]

  talking about wireless headphones and really talking about just same old [TS]

  earpods tonight plug them into the Lightning port then I think that the [TS]

  explanation for why they're doing it is about next year's phone having this [TS]

  edge-to-edge top-to-bottom display and then putting the headphone jack [TS]

  underneath that display really is a problem like I the waterproofing is [TS]

  obviously not a problem because it's waterproof phones with the headphone [TS]

  jack the battery explanation I I regret even going there because I feel like [TS]

  however much space the headphone jack takes out [TS]

  I don't think adding that space in the corner is really gonna affect battery [TS]

  life too much I mean every inch counts are every square millimeter counts [TS]

  inside these devices especially as they get dinner but the fact that they want [TS]

  to go edge-to-edge with the display top to bottom [TS]

  as close to edge to edge as that currently is side-to-side i think really [TS]

  could be a problem with the headphone jack with as far you know into the [TS]

  devices it inserts and so rather than doing it [TS]

  introducing this no headphone jack next year when they do that with this radical [TS]

  new design it's better to do it now and get people on board a year in advance is [TS]

  the home button a bigger problem in that this place all over all kinds of other [TS]

  stuff right i mean these are this is one of the best engineering companies and [TS]

  well suppose what I've heard supposedly is that the home button is on will be on [TS]

  the screen and it will be covered with pixels so you'll be you know i'm not [TS]

  quite I don't know any details about how that's exactly gonna work but that [TS]

  you'll have some kind of thing that you'll feel on the display but when [TS]

  you're not using it will be covered [TS]

  you know it'll be like usable space for apps sure be no I'm just saying like if [TS]

  they can put the display over the battery and the processor and that [TS]

  everything else you mean do the same problem the Lightning port [TS]

  I don't know well the Lightning port distant goes in so much it's so much [TS]

  shallower than the headphone jack and it's dinner right now heading in the [TS]

  right direction [TS]

  it's just it's one of those things where a thing that I never want to do is [TS]

  assume that Apple isn't good enough to do something because they're it's clear [TS]

  that they can solve problems in a variety of like it's the same with [TS]

  google and like Facebook you know it's that these are the highest and companies [TS]

  in the world like if if they can't figure it out it's rarely because [TS]

  there's some huge blocker that they can't either like Moore's law won't take [TS]

  them over or they can't design around it something else [TS]

  yeah that's why I'm sticking with my optimistic smile optimistic take that [TS]

  their message is you should go wireless because the long run of Apple devices is [TS]

  as get eliminated as many cables as possible [TS]

  yeah you know I saw this in maybe this is just because i'm a huge nerd maybe [TS]

  the vast majority people i kept wireless that's what i want to do is I'm i went [TS]

  to Tudor been sweating and and we know it is a different story [TS]

  well I did go to his wedding was great and I was thinking of a different time [TS]

  that he put a microSD card into it [TS]

  samsung phone and [TS]

  we shot at us and we shot this 360 thing and I needed to put it on a headset and [TS]

  the only way we could get it in time was to put a microSD card into a computer [TS]

  and then stick it in the back of a phone and it was like I use the phone was [TS]

  computer and I open the file and ran with it and we were just sitting there [TS]

  how would you do that an iphone it's like almost impossible to move a file [TS]

  that big night fast man [TS]

  and there's there is just this value to that kind of extensibility and you can [TS]

  see where the two platforms will diverge and at this might be one of those [TS]

  moments when they're gonna get more divergent because the android phone is [TS]

  going to be the one with I'm removable storage and a headphone jack and a USBC [TS]

  port and all these standards and connectivity and and and an app store [TS]

  that lets you sideload and all this other stuff and it's more of a computer [TS]

  and the iphone is the sheet of glass that commands you to use it and [TS]

  certainly I was at the eye eye doctor yesterday and and what they know for [TS]

  some reason I don't even know how it came about but they know who what I do [TS]

  they know that I'm you know right about apple stuff and I think it's because the [TS]

  actual my actual eye doctor she's a bit of a technology as an Apple watch it and [TS]

  her while i was waiting the room I was you know those in like that the [TS]

  optometrist chair and it's right it's right behind the receptionist desk and [TS]

  she was just asking me hey what you know she knows what I do and she's like [TS]

  what's coming up what's new what's the big thing you know trying to talk shop [TS]

  and I said believe it believe in hot [TS]

  hey it's it's that the next iPhone is going to remain that donate Jack and its [TS]

  really all everybody in the industry is talking about this headphone jack and I [TS]

  it sounds as I to as these words are coming out of my mouth and I tell you [TS]

  that that's the next big thing I can't believe that I'm telling you that but [TS]

  you asked and asked the attack and I thought that is it just sounded so goofy [TS]

  once i started saying it but it really is to me fascinating because it's it [TS]

  could play out so many different ways [TS]

  well it's it like I'm saying it this relates back to the very beginning of [TS]

  the show [TS]

  like what what do I want to cover the verge it's how technology impacts the [TS]

  culture right it's it's that's the focus [TS]

  and the culture of how we listen to everything was is built around this Jack [TS]

  it's wild actually it's just it's everywhere as we discussed it on an [TS]

  audio only podcast that will be you know anybody who hears this discussion is [TS]

  using headphones or speakers getting audio off the device somehow yeah and [TS]

  actually it's funny anything market really stats so many people just with my [TS]

  wife does us they just let you use the speaker on the phone maybe that's what [TS]

  Apple's banking on is that most people are just like fuck it and they just used [TS]

  to speak up i don't know that [TS]

  yeah i just think it's it's and it's another one of these inflection points [TS]

  when it's ok we're going to want to jump off the deep end and what is the audio [TS]

  industry look like now [TS]

  chaos me like that I'm gonna call that a wrap [TS]

  yeah thank you for your time this was great this is everything everything I [TS]

  wanted to be a people want to follow you on twitter they can find you at reckless [TS]

  without the W sound like a skateboard shop [TS]

  yeah exactly that would be reckless yeah I and of course your editor-in-chief of [TS]

  The Verge which it needs no introduction anybody is listening this is not her to [TS]

  the verge must be fresh out of prison and we welcome you [TS]

  yes society yeah yeah like my thanks to our sponsors Casper where you go to buy [TS]

  a mattress Harry's where you go to buy razors and blades and hiro de ro the top [TS]

  notch Wi-Fi system that will fill your house with Wi-Fi [TS]