The Accidental Tech Podcast

94: Spirited Defense of Pong


  Why did you become stupid game you should play this ball while rocking. Get an infant in your arm. [TS]

  Yeah you can do it one handed one arm baby holding rock balance walking tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap. [TS]

  All right so in the post show from last episode we can have a potion of neutral and I was talking [TS]

  or I thought I was talking completely hypothetically about cars for Aaron [TS]

  and myself you know now the Declan's around [TS]

  and I don't know if I made it clear that that entire conversation was completely hypothetical [TS]

  and of course what with this being us everyone came out of the woodwork to give car recommendations [TS]

  or car ante recommendations you know never buy this car it's terrible. [TS]

  SUCHER which is which is certainly appreciated [TS]

  but I don't think I made it clear that that it was all just hypothetical I mean neither of us is going to get a car [TS]

  anytime soon and I still love my B.M.W. and I plan to keep my B.M.W. [TS]

  For at least a couple more years if not longer than that and as I think I said on the show Aaron loves her Mazda six [TS]

  and I think she'd probably rather give me up in the car just and you know who can blame or so I didn't mention that. [TS]

  Additionally a lot of people came out of the woodwork to say the goal of our wagon is a thing [TS]

  or if you're not from the United States the state believe that's right and saloon is a sedan is a right [TS]

  and you still think golf apparently to golf golf whatever I just want to add that it's not even an accent is it do you [TS]

  or G G O L F Yes So it's golf or yeah Is that why does everyone think that's brawn. [TS]

  You keep things like the Gulf of Mexico. Now why whatever. Anyway that the G.R. [TS]

  Point being I know that's the thing the reason I didn't bring it up is because I don't suspect that will get it in the [TS]

  United States [TS]

  and yes I believe it was in Los Angeles briefly for the purposes of the Los Angeles Motor Show auto show whatever. [TS]

  But the likelihood of that arriving in the States is slim to none. [TS]

  Additionally people have suggested various Subarus including the outback also known as the B.M.W. Three G.T. [TS]

  As well as the Subaru Forester and I owned a Subaru in the past [TS]

  and that car had its entire drive train replaced over the course of the sixty or eighty thousand miles that I had it [TS]

  and although I drive like a jerk I don't drive like an animal so I don't think it's my fault [TS]

  and the likelihood of me getting another Subaru is not good. [TS]

  So thank you for all the recommendations for the cars that I'm not buying [TS]

  and that will be enough of the car talk for now. You notice three G.T. [TS]

  Has not had any parts on it replaced actually going quite well in fact we use it for our Thanksgiving trip this past [TS]

  weekend and it was glorious I love all the luxuries of having you know like all the little hooks [TS]

  and stuff in the trunk and I'll leave a little latch points [TS]

  and little things that can move around plus the giant torn space to begin with It was quite quite pleasant. [TS]

  And yeah I think I think we're going to sell you an errand on one of these. Next time you'll see you'll see. [TS]

  You say you're denying it now but I bet once you once you actually see it and give the chance [TS]

  and once errancy didn't give it a chance I bet we can convert you guys. [TS]

  That's not likely you could probably you may be able to get me me but there's no chance of getting there [TS]

  and because she isn't. I think she thinks it looks too much like a wagon which she doesn't like. [TS]

  And beyond that I don't think she particularly want to be M.W. Much to my Should chagrin. [TS]

  That word I'm thinking of it's France shall grind much to my dismay let's go with that in no small part because all [TS]

  B.M.W. Drivers are jerks myself extremely included and she is one associate with them. [TS]

  There are enough of the Car Talk you want to talk about something that's cool I would love to. [TS]

  In fact this week we have a fourth sponsor and it's a holiday miracle. [TS]

  It's definitely not because of a clerical error last week it was definitely a holiday miracle that the reason we have [TS]

  four sponsors this week are sponsor our first ponder this week. [TS]

  Is studio neat once again with a whole bunch of cool stuff. So if you go to Studio neat dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  They've made a really cool A.T.P. [TS]

  Holiday cocktail guide for us [TS]

  and they've made you have to get a page I mean first of all the page looks incredible because they have incredibly good [TS]

  design skills or where they're going to studio neat dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  and They have actually made custom drinks they've made the case you list for John Syracuse So the Marco Arment you can [TS]

  tell they actually listen to our show and actually know us. [TS]

  So the case is of I could drink the John Syracuse is not the halakhic [TS]

  and is based on Sprite that made me laugh so hard what I what I what they show this to me when Tom and [TS]

  and studio in each of the Sammy the John Surtees it was far away my favorite. Well because I was a little concerned. [TS]

  I saw this you know when we weren't on the air when I saw this and [TS]

  when I first saw they made rings for the three of us I thought Oh well I don't know of I don't know of John's going to [TS]

  want to be associated with an alcoholic drink and oh no it's it's bright. John is that is that a correct assessment. [TS]

  I was happy that I'm in college but I'm not a big fan of mint actually like this one [TS]

  but if it were a boy body may more than be a drink that I like then I don't know maybe the combination of it might work [TS]

  I've never I haven't tried this so I can't say whether or not it works as a drink. [TS]

  Well similarly I don't know if I'd like a mask emule I mean if you look at the constituent ingredients say it seems [TS]

  like something I would enjoy but I don't know the red ones like I know I hate old fashions [TS]

  and much to the dismay not sugar in my curly and Marco but this sounds like it would be all right. [TS]

  I think it's funny and my mind is like of course a coffee based dessert drink which sounds pretty good. [TS]

  If I can say I think it's even better that John has a minor complaint about his. Yeah like. [TS]

  It wouldn't be the John Syracuse if the real John Syracuse A didn't have a minor complaint about it. [TS]

  Well I haven't I haven't talked about my Vegas like of mint things on the show before so they can be forgiven for not [TS]

  knowing this tiny detail about me. Would you like to talk about that now John I would not. [TS]

  Would you talk about that now John. We don't need to we can move on. Well we're still in the sponsor. [TS]

  I'm very sorry my bad. [TS]

  Know what we're going to come back to that some point maybe not today maybe not tomorrow but some day. [TS]

  Anyway this is all studio neat dot com slash A.T.P. You gotta look at this page it's hilarious. [TS]

  They also have made a cocktail tool guide cocktail tool Guide dot com and check that out as well. [TS]

  They collected a whole bunch of gear some stuff they make some stuff that that they don't make [TS]

  and you know they don't care if they make it [TS]

  or if they make it they want you to have the best year for making cocktails at home [TS]

  and some of the stuff is really cool and finally they have this new thing called the simple syrup kit [TS]

  and it is exactly what it sounds like it is a kit to help you make and store simple syrup and honestly [TS]

  when they first announced as I was a little skeptical because I've made simple syrup before it sugar and water [TS]

  and I thought what do you possibly need a kit for to make this like couldn't you make this in anything [TS]

  and I haven't for years I've been making my own simple surf usually for ice coffee recipes [TS]

  and the fact is making simple Sarah by yourself even though it is incredibly simple it does have like two [TS]

  or three potential spots for annoyance and I watched the video and I found simple circuits and I [TS]

  and I actually that fixes those annoyances. Like I got ahead of these guys. [TS]

  I thought there was no room for a dedicated product in that space but they made one and it looks pretty good. [TS]

  I mean these guys really have a knack for taking taking things that you didn't make maybe you didn't think you needed [TS]

  and then once you have that you're like wow this is of course I knew this this is a great how do I care I live without [TS]

  this studio and you go you gotta look at their cocktail tool guide. As well as the studio neat dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Where they create these awesome cocktails for each of us and really they are. They're really funny I got a say in it. [TS]

  Page is a beautiful video they shot is beautiful the simple circuit. Check him out there. They make great stuff. [TS]

  As I mentioned last time they have the cars or not they have the glyph. [TS]

  They have the ice kit all this great stuff they make the studio neat dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Yeah and as a final quick dent into that Tom and Dan are the two guys that run studio need [TS]

  and they're they're friends of ours [TS]

  and they're super super super awesome awesome people so if you're going to throw if you go through a little bit of [TS]

  money their way there. [TS]

  Well deserving and in the stuff they make is awesome and why don't we mention [TS]

  but I get ten percent off if he's a Cody T.P. [TS]

  and Forgive me if we already talked about that but yes forgive me for not talking about that that's very important. [TS]

  Use coupon code A.T.P. For ten percent off anything even the studio neat store. [TS]

  So thanks a lot to studio neat once again. [TS]

  All right when we talk about tonight there's not so much going on all right well that was good show. [TS]

  Thanks a lot for sponsor them. Marco makes his own news right. Yeah you could say that. [TS]

  Marco what's been what's what's been to be in your bonnet these days. [TS]

  Well I have a thing about about the push notification I had which was I don't know how much of a topic that really is [TS]

  it's really a topic post about a tweet about it all day so it was ever you making your own news that could have come [TS]

  and gone but you felt like you needed to chime in about it and say you wrote a big long blog post about it [TS]

  and then argue to the people on Twitter about it it was one hundred ninety five words most of which are not about that [TS]

  particular one. Really I thought it was longer. [TS]

  No there was an image in the middle of my to turn you off make use of your song and put a link in the show not so. [TS]

  So basically the other day Apple sent out to push notifications advertising the red. [TS]

  Apps or promotion from the App Store Apso if you if you had notifications enabled for the App Store [TS]

  and if I remember correctly I don't think I ever actually enabled those I don't think I was ever asked to. [TS]

  Maybe maybe you'd like the first time I launch the app store app on some of us version maybe that's me [TS]

  and I said yes but I don't usually say yes to things and mine were unable to so I don't know what that was about. [TS]

  If it was actually if it actually enabled by default and it never asks you up front that's kind of crappy [TS]

  but I can't say for sure whether it was that way or not. [TS]

  Yeah I was only wondering why I didn't see this [TS]

  and now that you mention this I realize that the whole time I was reading your tweets in your post I was like well I [TS]

  didn't get I guess I don't have an i Phone right. [TS]

  But I realize I do have an i Phone and then I have an i Phone Why didn't I get that [TS]

  and I realize the reason I didn't get it is because any time I set up an the I was device I go to the notification [TS]

  screen turn everything off [TS]

  and then selectively turn on like the two apps that I want to allow her to tell me notifications which are I don't know [TS]

  like messages and is there another one hundred messages. I can't think of anything offhand but certainly not apps. [TS]

  Well anyway so regardless of whether it was somebody's fault even worse but regardless what I was pointing out [TS]

  and it kind of got the idea kind of got muddy a little bit because the message they sent was promoting something for [TS]

  their project for the Product RED charity thing which is [TS]

  and I don't honestly I don't know the details of how the product RED Corp works I think it's not technically a [TS]

  non-profit in there some kind of stuff I don't have that it doesn't matter. [TS]

  And please don't email us of it really is a matter for the conversation. [TS]

  A lot of people took took issue with me complaining about a push notification that is for this. [TS]

  There's good cause and [TS]

  and the fact is I'm not taking issue with an avocation I'm taking issue with a red I'm not taking issue with the [TS]

  content of it. I'm taking issue with the fact that Apple sent a promotional. [TS]

  Put on a vacation and there is specifically a rule in the abstract Allen's rule number five point six [TS]

  and the rule says you can't. [TS]

  The apps cannot use push notifications to send I think the exact wording but it's something like marketing [TS]

  or promotions of any kind. [TS]

  This rule is if you've ever had any absinthe [TS]

  or on any i Phone Ever And you've ever said yes to push notifications to anything besides messages John if you if you. [TS]

  You almost certainly know that after violate this rule constantly apps always send push notifications for advertising [TS]

  purposes always like hey come back to our game new bombs are fifty percent off today only like crap like that [TS]

  and it is so incredibly common and it's really unfortunate [TS]

  and so my post was basically saying this is really unfortunate how common this is that it is against the rules [TS]

  and Apple doesn't really enforce that rule and to some degree they kind of can't enforce that rule [TS]

  and we have with us a little bit before and now it's even worse that Apple itself doesn't follow that rule. [TS]

  And so that's my main complaint here. [TS]

  After all this preamble that yeah it was a little thing yeah it was you know essentially for a good cause. [TS]

  Yeah it was only to push notification sent in one hour on one day. [TS]

  But this is really setting a bad example it's setting a bad precedent [TS]

  and it's showing once again it's this is not that different from the you two album being shoved into our libraries this [TS]

  is not as bad as that I don't think. [TS]

  But it's this is this is this is Apple showing that they don't respect [TS]

  or they don't see that this is a boundary that they shouldn't cross like [TS]

  and advertising push notification to me is really offensive. [TS]

  And I you know I would I totally understand why like you know the target app or the Kohl's app [TS]

  or some kind of crappy news site. [TS]

  Yeah I think they will do it of course they'll do with their crappy retailers [TS]

  and they're shameless because most retailers have to be shameless to survive. [TS]

  And certainly news sites generally do as well. So that. [TS]

  Find if somebody with really terrible low standards with no with no self respect [TS]

  and who doesn't respect their customers either wants to spam people that's not a surprise [TS]

  but those are not usually terms used to describe Apple or their products [TS]

  and especially things that are there to default in their products [TS]

  and so what worries me here is that not only that will setting a bad example that this practice is OK by doing it [TS]

  themselves but also that it just shows that Apple is like their stuff getting through. [TS]

  And you know Apple is not one person. [TS]

  Apple has lots of people maybe some of them you know don't follow the same standards [TS]

  or make mistakes sometimes that's fine but it's a worrying trend. [TS]

  First we had the U two album that somehow got out [TS]

  and that like nose able to stop then say you know what this is this is kind of a bad way to do this [TS]

  and now we have this mess again and again. [TS]

  It's a little thing but we're starting to see a trend here [TS]

  and that that worries me it worries me that Apple doesn't seem to respect this boundary [TS]

  and doesn't seem to think this is a problem. I think my issue with it is not so much. [TS]

  Everything you said about a person on occasions and boundaries in the U two album and everything. [TS]

  It's part of a pattern of behavior with Apple [TS]

  and the App Store where if this was the only thing that happened it probably wouldn't bother me that much [TS]

  but it has been a silly aside. [TS]

  But this is happening in the context of an apple with an app store [TS]

  and a long history of really weird arbitrary nonsensical enforcement or Hafen Forstmann of some rules [TS]

  when they feel like it [TS]

  but not the rules like if Apple didn't have that pattern of behavior where an apple we finally apps over three years [TS]

  and then get polled and Apple polled and put in after a bunch of stories appearing Web sites you know [TS]

  or felt rejected for reasons that don't seem to make sense or be fair you know like that whole history [TS]

  and the fact that all of us are kind of close to people who write applications [TS]

  and come in contact with those sort of weird arbitrary rules and all that stuff over the years. [TS]

  That makes this thing more egregious because it's like it's like they're rubbing it in our face. [TS]

  Yes we know the rules don't really apply to Apple as they run the store like we're aware of it [TS]

  but it's like are they for me anyway my my sort of bitterness [TS]

  and anger by proxy to learning to have an app in the App Store but I know a lot of people who do [TS]

  and I read the stories and like this person did everything right. [TS]

  They made a great app they tried to do something it seems I would never predicted they would have got a pose not a [TS]

  borderline thing seems like it's exactly what I wanted [TS]

  and the app gets pulled for some crazy reason Apple doesn't care and it's this person's livelihood [TS]

  and they spend all this time on it and they could not have predicted at a time that this would have been the result. [TS]

  And yet now they could be potentially out all the time [TS]

  and money they spent to develop in the application now may be wasted for reasons that don't make sense you know we all [TS]

  sit out here [TS]

  and try to divine what is Apple's motivation what kind of store they're trying to to make sure it's not going to tell [TS]

  us like that with all these rules but they don't say why. [TS]

  And their decisions you look at them [TS]

  and you try to figure baseness vision they trying to not have a store where junky apps are on their nose playing drunk [TS]

  after they trying to not have a store where apps have advertising know it [TS]

  or not have free apps they don't want to have to really make any sense. [TS]

  With the exception of some simple stuff like no porn apps like you know that kind of thing make sense [TS]

  and they've been consistent on almost everything else I can't figure out what it is that they're aiming for what why [TS]

  and force this rule not that one. [TS]

  Why come down here [TS]

  and not there what kind what is the shape of the App Store they're trying to make by these rules of just seems [TS]

  arbitrary and in the context of all of that then doing something like this just seems egregious [TS]

  and it's not it's not the incident it's that it's the surrounding you know sort of sadness [TS]

  and the reason is infinite so going you put the text of the the Rule five point six in your your thing in case people [TS]

  think there's some big legal ease thing or whatever. Here's the full text of this rule and the apps or guidelines. [TS]

  Apps cannot use push notifications to send advertising promotions or direct them. Marketing of any kind. [TS]

  That's it that's the whole thing. There's not like twenty paragraphs of stuff. That's it and it is not ambiguous. [TS]

  Advertising promotions or direct marketing of any kind. [TS]

  This is clearly if there is an advertisement or it's a promotion [TS]

  or it's direct marketing it's certainly one of those things like that pretty much covers all your bases. [TS]

  And so they do this one little thing like we were already kind of upset that you know they don't catch all these ads [TS]

  that are spamming us with the you know come back to our store to buy as an app purchase. [TS]

  And then [TS]

  when they do it themselves it's for me it's not so much about fashion of occasion which I never even saw it's about [TS]

  like someone an Apple had no problem doing this. [TS]

  It's like just rubbing it in your face [TS]

  and that's maybe that's like transference like it's not fair to come down on whatever this one little incident was. [TS]

  But really it is it's about it's about everything else that has to do with the App Store [TS]

  and it just being focused on this one. [TS]

  Maybe for Marco it's also about the push notification [TS]

  but for me this is just you know the flash point of a much larger sort of sadness about the App Store. [TS]

  Do you think that people who aren't in our little circle of techno people know [TS]

  or care anything about this specific notification. [TS]

  I get they don't read sites that covered it as news that remark was blog they don't follow me on Twitter. [TS]

  But the notification did come on their show on their phones. Did they even take note that it was they even notice. [TS]

  I mean I would imagine most people who have any reason the number of apps [TS]

  and stalled probably get regular spam notifications like so many apps send them especially like you know big retailer [TS]

  and publisher apps or games. Game free to play games are the worst. Yeah. [TS]

  Like all of those apps there it is so incredibly common that this is also imposes about abuse of this of the system [TS]

  and directly breaking this rule is so incredibly common that I would imagine most people who have a reasonable number [TS]

  of apps and stalled are accustomed to seeing push notification ads all the time. [TS]

  So they probably didn't think anything of this one. Maybe even the. [TS]

  All who run the app store promo team like maybe the people at Apple who sent this ad aren't even aware that it's [TS]

  against the review rules these are different teams. They probably have. [TS]

  I bet the people who sent that don't even know about this [TS]

  and maybe on their phones maybe they see enough push notification ads from other apps they just think it's a normal [TS]

  acceptable thing to do. [TS]

  Well that's what I think I think it is a normal acceptable thing to do for for other people I guess. [TS]

  So I'm going back to the theory that it's our closeness to people who make [TS]

  and sell apps on the App Store in the history of Apple dealing with the App Store rules [TS]

  and those people that makes us in any way sensitive to this whereas I think other people who don't know anyone who [TS]

  makes apps don't care what it takes to make apps don't care what the rules are for the App Store. [TS]

  This totally disappears into the noise noise that is mostly not of Apple's making maybe just of their negligence of not [TS]

  enforcing this rule on other applications which as you pointed out somewhere maybe in the blog. [TS]

  It's really hard to enforce this [TS]

  and Apple historically has not been good sort of crowdsourcing this kind of enforcement because basically [TS]

  when you're reviewing the app if your view of the app [TS]

  and you never get an ad push notification you can't determine whether the ad will never send a push notification. [TS]

  The added day after the day after the proved it goes into the store [TS]

  and then here come the first notifications to be applied like it's very really easy to do that so there needs to be [TS]

  some mechanism whereby people can report notifications I think is as you also said like you can't how do you you don't [TS]

  put that in the U.I. [TS]

  To say report this notification is spam or something of that kind of mucks it up [TS]

  and it's like it's got the maps thing all over again where people are trying to send corrections were an Apple had [TS]

  things in the wrong spot [TS]

  and Apple was not good at integrating those corrections at least initially into improving the map data this is not [TS]

  Apple's forte. [TS]

  So if they are going to have a sort of very clear unambiguous rule against push notification ads they also need some [TS]

  mechanism for enforcement independent of of them sending it themselves which I [TS]

  and I were told by our market is that the people who sent it either didn't know this was a rule or didn't care. [TS]

  Both I think are equally likely [TS]

  but again I think the only reason that he is talked about in our circles is because of our former contact with the app [TS]

  store and just poisoned us on this entire issue. [TS]

  Everyone else doesn't care at all because their entire life is dismissing stupid notifications about come back to the [TS]

  game now because you're seven sprouts blossomed and you need to pluck them and you can get the fifty gems [TS]

  or twenty percent off whenever we shouldn't just accept that. [TS]

  Oh well this role is violent all the time so we might as well not even try to enforce it like that's not good enough to [TS]

  me that's that I've heard a few people say that like oh well this is too common who cares it's one of occasion [TS]

  and the fact is it isn't just one of occasion and the entire experience of your phone of using your phone changes [TS]

  and in a pretty important and non subtle way. [TS]

  If you routinely get ad notifications like that's the head is not a small thing. [TS]

  Just wait until they start showing up on your watch. Right like that that is not a small thing. [TS]

  Notifications should matter you know [TS]

  or you should at least be allowed to treat them as if they matter what he did they were not another story [TS]

  but like it is an interruption to you it is literally pushed you don't ask for it is literally pushed to your device at [TS]

  any time. [TS]

  It alerts you it is meant to interrupt you to show you something that you care about seeing an ad is never going to be [TS]

  one of those things and it's it like the idea that you say that oh well Apple can't really enforce us very easily [TS]

  and lots of people break the rule so we don't we don't need to even try to enforce the rule. [TS]

  No that's that is not good enough and that is not like Apple shouldn't think that's good enough. [TS]

  And what worries me is whenever there's any sign that maybe they do think it's good enough [TS]

  and I think that's that's why this that's why this irritated me so much. [TS]

  Thing is even though Apple's bad at this sort of crowd sourcing type of thing that can't be done an app [TS]

  or view really do so with this argument it has to be sort of done in the field [TS]

  and they have to collect that information. [TS]

  Right and most people don't realize that Freeview only spends a few minutes with each app. [TS]

  Yeah so the other alternative is to collect all the information and that Apple is not good at [TS]

  but the other part of it they're in such a powerful position to if they can get any kind of collection they're in such [TS]

  a powerful position to enforce it because all they have to do is kind of have a sort of you know I don't know three [TS]

  strikes you're out of some sort of the merit based system where you know the first time [TS]

  or so you maybe didn't know about this rule maybe you didn't see this in the gut by the way after Bellbird we noticed [TS]

  that a lot of people reported your absenting push notifications maybe confirm what they have developed [TS]

  or is this the case or these people I don't know you determine authenticity is it so easy to fake this like [TS]

  or whatever [TS]

  but in consultation with the thing they had you know not an automated kind of You Tube is taking down your movie [TS]

  because someone is playing copyrighted music in the background right. [TS]

  But in a human to human way which I think they can afford to do with the Felber relations Hey we got a lot of [TS]

  complaints about your app sending an ad somehow somehow collect those things [TS]

  and said of the present you know you're not supposed to says this guideline OK My bet that's one struck in the second [TS]

  time they do it is a like you know hey we told you about this before and seems like you're still doing it. [TS]

  You really need to stop doing that because if we get more reports of you doing a game [TS]

  or to pull you out from the store and then you know whether it's three strikes because it's a baseball analogy [TS]

  or something entirely different like they are totally in a position to talk to the people about something if it's a [TS]

  willful violation it's not like oh accidentally use something that calls a private A.B.L. [TS]

  Like those things happen or people aren't doing that intentionally. [TS]

  There's no accidental push notifications for as happening maybe once you don't know about it maybe twice. [TS]

  Oh you didn't quite get it worked out but like three or four or five times [TS]

  or maybe it resets after a year whatever they are in such a powerful position to tell anybody in the App Store you need [TS]

  to stop it and they don't need to be perfect they don't need to catch every single one [TS]

  but it has to be there has to be repercussions right now people are terrified to make it [TS]

  and we'll talk about it maybe the next thought of how to make notification center which is the stuff [TS]

  and I was because they're afraid they're going to get pulled but nobody's of raises and pushed out of the gate [TS]

  and because there's no repercussions. [TS]

  Apple has all the power they can at their leisure whenever they want to go into whatever schedule they want to put the [TS]

  fear of apple into every single developer and say you know we may just pull your app if you keep doing that. [TS]

  But they don't there's no consequences they don't like this data. [TS]

  There's no three strikes policy it's just you know it's completely foreign to the graphics. [TS]

  Well that's the thing and you hit the nail on the head enough there in forcing the wrong stuff there. [TS]

  They're tearing apart all of these today widgets which maybe we should take a pause [TS]

  and talk about that rather than rather than going after all these ridiculous push notifications [TS]

  and you know a lot of people have called for [TS]

  and I think they're right you know like I think one of you just said this [TS]

  but having some way of reporting I mean I think it was Paul Her dad had said you know if you do what is it a right to [TS]

  left why did I get the correct [TS]

  and here it doesn't matter if you do the swipe the one direction to take action on the particular push notification you [TS]

  just got Will lets you swipe in the other direction to like Report for spam or something along those lines [TS]

  and I don't think it's a bad idea [TS]

  and I don't think most regular users have any idea that you can get pretty granular with your push notification [TS]

  settings more so than almost anything else I can think of in the last. [TS]

  And and so I think a lot of people just live with all the spam [TS]

  and that begs the question you know if there's this much spam coming on to their phones at what point did people start [TS]

  feeling like that degrades the experience well I love my i Phone except that it's constantly buzzing with weird [TS]

  messages that I really don't care about and I wish I could make them go away. [TS]

  You know no mockery on tell us about some of the score. [TS]

  We're also sponsored this week by Harry is go to Harry's dot com R. Y.S. Dot com and use the promo code A.T.P. [TS]

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  Three high quality blades and they were made in foaming shave gel or shaving cream. [TS]

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  We talked with them before I like Harry's razor stuff I think I said before I would say it is comparable to a fusion [TS]

  cartridge in shave quality but I but it cost half as much and the handles [TS]

  and the cream are awesome the handles are way better than fusions nice like heavy weight the metal handles [TS]

  and they just look really classy it's like you know nice classy old style. [TS]

  Harry has also the gift that gives back Harry supports the community by donating one percent of sales and volunteer [TS]

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  Holiday at checkout for five dollars off the winter Winston. Harry is good enough to gift you know. [TS]

  I like best about the Harrys handle the shaving handle thing. It's not shaped like some part of a transformer. [TS]

  Yeah like I'm holding a tiny skinny robot in my hand I don't know when that started maybe I think it started [TS]

  when I was a teenager the razor handles had to look like Transformers to make any sense. Like make it comfortable. [TS]

  I'm not supposed to say hey to the British people understand what I'm saying even [TS]

  when I spell it out the way they complain about. [TS]

  However you probably should have a R R Y as dot com hirees I tell you what talk about today which it's because as if [TS]

  this episode wasn't grumpy enough what's getting grumpier. [TS]

  So one of the friends of the show Greg Pearce writes in Iowa called drafts [TS]

  and he had a pretty cool today which is from what I gather where you can there are several buttons that will let you do [TS]

  several different things including start a new draft in the app. [TS]

  And apparently he was told by Apple was it today [TS]

  or yesterday recently that if he wants to continue to have his app in the App Store he needs to take away those buttons [TS]

  from his today which it which was effectively the entire today widget so here it is he's getting told you cannot have [TS]

  anything really interactive and today which you act that's not fair. [TS]

  Anything that involves like creation is I forget how he phrased it on between front of me because something along the [TS]

  lines of it's for viewing data only. [TS]

  Right well so and I think we need to be very clear on this because a lot of the tweets [TS]

  and stuff on around have not been and Greg clarified this too but it's [TS]

  and it's important that if we're talking with us we're talking about the right thing. [TS]

  So it appears and unfortunately it seems to be constantly shifting [TS]

  but it appears that the reason why Apple is not letting him have those buttons in the ad is not because they are [TS]

  buttons necessarily it is because they launch the app from the widget to complete a task or to do a task in the app [TS]

  and that is what Apple is saying you can't do whether you agree with that or not we will we can talk about it. [TS]

  What it is. [TS]

  Apple is not saying you can't have buttons they're saying you can't launch the app from the extension to complete a [TS]

  task was that something that was known beforehand or they just decide that now or seemingly make it up. [TS]

  They seemingly made it up. [TS]

  Yeah I heard and yes [TS]

  and you know Monte underscore underscore in the chat room is saying that Evernote does that exactly Marco I know that [TS]

  and there are other apps that do that. [TS]

  This is as John was saying earlier part of the problem with app review that a lot of times the rules are not enforced [TS]

  consistently and a lot of times like Evernote might have been approved [TS]

  and they made like a little note to their boss saying hey we might want to consider the the the policy [TS]

  and what they can do this or not and then you know eventually they make that decision and then get hit by a [TS]

  and then maybe Evernote will get hit by you know in the future next and they try to update [TS]

  or maybe Apple will send them a pleasant phone call. [TS]

  Who knows but the point is these rules are evolving and it's really a bad scene for for all parties involved. [TS]

  I think Apple is obviously you know Apple is never going to say these are the rules they are set in stone [TS]

  and they're complete They even say in the rules document I think it says in the intro that it's like a living document [TS]

  and it will be changed over time and and they're going to change their mind [TS]

  and rules are going to they're going to figure out new rules that the fact they change over time like we've been [TS]

  expecting a change or time to be change in response to changing markets to be refined and made more specific [TS]

  and clarify things that are unclear. [TS]

  That's why it's so important to do the thing that Apple seems not to do that well which is explain the motivations [TS]

  because if you say here's a set of rules and what we're trying to do with these rules is [TS]

  and then explain their motivations because the motivations let you say well the rule doesn't say anything about the [TS]

  specifically [TS]

  but it doesn't violate the spirit of the law we have the letter of the law we don't necessarily have the Spirit. [TS]

  Is there a good chance that this is like borderline might get rejected [TS]

  or you know usually you can tell if you're trying to skirt a rule like you know you do in there [TS]

  but sometimes you just like the example just going to show it is.. [TS]

  James Thompson's Peacock very made a pig out of a calendar application on the Mac. [TS]

  And he made a little calculator in in the today which is you know just about a number pad [TS]

  but the plus minus you know it's a calculator. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  and that the whole time he was making that he's like boy this is a perfect example of a today widget because it just so [TS]

  happens that in an extremely simplified version of the functionality of my application fits within a today widget [TS]

  because you know the count to the big calculator app is very complicated and it's got a customizable keyboard [TS]

  and you know a tape and scientific notation and programmable functions like. [TS]

  But I can give you a simple add a bunch of numbers together thing here and he got rejected [TS]

  and I haven't talked about this so I don't know whether this is the case [TS]

  but from from seeing his tweets about it it seems like he spent the entire times [TS]

  and studied over the seasons I was it was announced until now working on this widget. [TS]

  Never in a million years thinking this widget is going to get rejected because you're not allowed to have calculators [TS]

  today which it just didn't even occur to him because looking at the rules there's nothing from what he could divine [TS]

  from the spirit of the rules that said this type of thing would cause it to be rejected. [TS]

  Now I'm pretty sure this is fairly quickly reversed and I think it's back in the store now or never. [TS]

  That's correct [TS]

  but it was it was reversed after we all loudly publicized it through all you know because he's he's a well known [TS]

  developer a long time Apple developer there was lots of stories that why it got reversed. [TS]

  Maybe maybe not maybe it was just a mistake or whatever [TS]

  but that type of experience where you where you think you're doing exactly what Apple wants like you can you're coming [TS]

  home from everything you're like boy I'm totally on board with this thing I'm going to make a great I'm going to take [TS]

  advantage of these new baby eyes you made like that's what he's trying to get to do here is here's this new software. [TS]

  Here it is new you guys know go out there make something great with it and you do it [TS]

  and just like nope rejected me like What do you mean rejecting you know you have no recourse you know the appeals [TS]

  process but like it's so difficult to talk to someone [TS]

  and you just don't understand you say I didn't think I was skirting a rule I didn't think I was. Close to any line. [TS]

  Nothing in these things would indicate to me that I would ever get rejected any just get rejected [TS]

  and would have been reversed if he wasn't such a well known person [TS]

  and the opportunity maybe maybe not to you never getting an explanation of why it happened or least public one [TS]

  and there's nothing in there you know what are you trying to do with it what are you trying to direct you haven't [TS]

  you're launching other applications putting advertisements in there no you putting a tiny little game [TS]

  and I don't know it's just it's exposing some functional your application. [TS]

  It's like it's exactly what you think you're supposed to do so that type of stuff. [TS]

  You know again frustration by proxy I don't have an afternoon after that doesn't affect me [TS]

  but it just makes me it makes me upset. [TS]

  This happens it's like mismanagement It's like especially [TS]

  when is it immediately reversed it's just bad blood for no good reason [TS]

  and I think you know what you just said about like he was like putting a little game in there anything like I think [TS]

  that should be allowed to like I think what we're seeing here is Apple is is obviously still trying to figure out what [TS]

  the rules around this are and I think the rules should have already been decided for the most part [TS]

  and should be pretty clear to them [TS]

  and I think they are exerting a lot more like nanny state level control over this than is warranted because you know [TS]

  from there and secondarily maybe the reason they don't want apps to launch themselves [TS]

  or other apps from notifications or from their view maybe there's a security angle on that. [TS]

  I don't know if there is a security angle on that. Apple should fix that security angle and allow it. That's stupid. [TS]

  So you know maybe maybe this is security thing and that's the reason we have been told that. [TS]

  But regardless you know that's something worth fixing and then [TS]

  and then allowing I think what we're seeing here is Apple saying here's this great new system we've made very powerful [TS]

  but we're going to be extremely cautious so that we don't allow users to make a bad experience for themselves that that [TS]

  is Apple's typical M.O. However the way they've done it here is first of all. [TS]

  Like in the process of adding a today widget to your to your today view is pretty deliberate like it doesn't like you [TS]

  don't just install an app and all of a sudden it's automatically [TS]

  and you should a view like that that doesn't happen you have to manually go at it [TS]

  and it's a process that I would imagine most users don't know how to do. [TS]

  Don't care do [TS]

  and are certain are going to be able doing accidentally too many times not even knowing how they did it [TS]

  and it's considerably harder than say accepting push notifications for an app right. [TS]

  Yeah I like the app can just present a button that does this. [TS]

  Like you have to actually go into your today view and go to only to the area whatever it is [TS]

  and at it like you have to deliberately put these things there because of that. [TS]

  So you have chosen to download this app you have chosen to add its widget to today view I don't think Apple needs to be [TS]

  as protective of what's there because the user has chosen to put this here please I am Want This is so important to me. [TS]

  I want this in my today because today view it doesn't scale well to having tons of crap there like you're going to be [TS]

  picking a small number of things to put there in all likelihood. [TS]

  So Apple's concern if I had to guess it's about keeping that simple and lightweight [TS]

  but they don't have to do that because the process of adding those things already so deliberate and difficult [TS]

  and it doesn't handle having a lot in there just design wise already that I think anything that an app is allowed to do [TS]

  in itself it should be allowed to do there too I don't think Apple is is doing itself or its customers [TS]

  and its developers any favors by trying to say well you can you can put things here and it's a U.I. [TS]

  View you can enter into an ever you want and you can have buttons and stuff [TS]

  but we only want to be for these quick glance kind of tasks like that's a really hard line to draw we're seeing the [TS]

  problems with them trying to draw that line and I think it's it's just it's a bad idea to even try it. [TS]

  On that line I think if somebody downloads a game let's say it's a game that puts palm in your notification center it's [TS]

  a punk game and you can install the pond today widget and you can play upon in your today view. [TS]

  That's you know that's not a great idea for a game but something to do it [TS]

  and make a billion dollars I will take my royalty later [TS]

  but if you want to do that as a user why does Apple have to say no you can't do that that's not what this is for that's [TS]

  you have to go to the app for that like you chose to get the app you chose to put it in notification center. [TS]

  You chose to bring it into play pong with it like this is not something that I see ripe for abuse from developers if [TS]

  you let them just do whatever they want within their little view there. [TS]

  Do you suspect that after he was part of Federico his organization if I had to guess I would say Schiller's because a [TS]

  threat part of developer relations I think which is part of Schiller's Right I agree. [TS]

  Well could it be something as simple as you know as far as Engineering's concerned it's it's the Wild West in a good [TS]

  way not a bad way but Schiller's group is like that's no good. [TS]

  But Short Well all right so very Q Is the app store guy right there in the App Store [TS]

  and so peek out the great thing with peek out as status now plan a chat room that pickup was accepted Peacocke was [TS]

  promoted a bit like the big banner in the App Store at the big art we're going to rethink except in the App Store [TS]

  promoted and then rejected it was rejected while it was in the promotion. [TS]

  Right so people who are responsible are saying hey here's an application to demonstrate like this is a great I.O.'s out [TS]

  the shows a developer using our new A.P.I. [TS]

  Bubble blah whatever like they choose what to promote That's chillers organization maybe but E.Q. [TS]

  Runs a store it's road I don't understand how it's working [TS]

  but it's it seems entirely plausible that one hand know what the other hand was doing on the one hand some people are [TS]

  picking out applications they think are ready to go to the App Store [TS]

  and on the other hand someone else is rejecting peek out because I think you should have a calculator thing that saves [TS]

  and then eventually those people got together and maybe two. [TS]

  And then the app was under rejected but it just it it's not it does not inspire confidence in the organization [TS]

  when stuff like that happens because like guys talk to each other figure out you know what's going on here [TS]

  and especially because again we're trying to divine the motivations are like could we have forseen this is there [TS]

  anything in what Apple has ever said from any public public [TS]

  or private communication about today which it's that would indicate to you before hand that this thing was even close [TS]

  to any boundaries of something they didn't want to have because it's not you know as much as your spirited defense of [TS]

  the pong game right. [TS]

  Because of the way today center with its work I think anybody doing that could have a reason I expect ation that you [TS]

  are outside the bounds of what does a center which it is supposed to be because it's so far out of the bounds of [TS]

  anything that Apple has shown. [TS]

  But Apple has shown things that are exactly like a calculator and I got a small degree interactive graph [TS]

  or some information that you can swipe to do something [TS]

  or a couple buttons you can press you know it's adding numbers for crying out loud I mean I know there are technical [TS]

  limitations on today's center webpage just in terms of like today center whatever the hell these things limitations on [TS]

  like when your abs going to be instantiated how quickly you're going to be torn down [TS]

  and like you know you're not you can't cram in you can take a long time to initialize you that you don't have a long [TS]

  time to tear yourself down you're getting pulled out like there are limitations and putting in [TS]

  but if you if you're working within that context you know something like a procedurally drawing punk game [TS]

  or a calculator that have numbers it's perfectly fine. [TS]

  So it's not just in the make any sense and so when Apple does that I go to the bad blood I was talking about [TS]

  when stuff like that happens you know like it's not a big deal but it gave one developer a lot of stress for a day [TS]

  or two and doesn't make any sense [TS]

  and it makes it look like Apple is an organization that doesn't have its stuff together you know. [TS]

  Yeah and it also it does have a chilling effect on other development. [TS]

  Like there's a lot like I mean I don't have any plans for today which I don't think makes a lot of sense for ever. [TS]

  But if I had planned for it I would certainly be reconsidering them now because I don't know like as a developer like [TS]

  should I invest a few months into doing something that will very possibly get my app rejected in the future [TS]

  and have to pull it out like that's it's such a big risk. [TS]

  There are so many [TS]

  and you know especially for apps like draft like Peacock where it's a bigger undertaking it's it's a bigger selling [TS]

  feature. [TS]

  I don't know that I would be developing for an innovation center which is right now it's not it's just not worth the [TS]

  risk and I was shocked about something that's cool that maybe will make us a little happier than this fiasco. [TS]

  Have you ever built a Web site Casey you know once or twice. [TS]

  Building Web site used to take a long time you to set it all up yourself manually spend all day troubleshooting ran [TS]

  random errors and stuff if you ever had to edit the site to be pretty easy to break your links [TS]

  or even break the whole site break the layout put in like a space in the wrong place and break your P.H.P. [TS]

  File some of you just changed the font color be a huge headache. [TS]

  Now we have square space and you can build beautiful websites with [TS]

  or without a sweat if you Squarespace check it out today. [TS]

  If you can hear a square space for a long time [TS]

  but now there's more with the brand new square space seven square zero seven has a whole bunch of really new features [TS]

  including a redesigned user interface and integration with Google Apps for your domain. [TS]

  You can have like your scripts based a main register there you can have your apps there you can e-mail spreadsheets [TS]

  documents all that set up through square space with demand it's hosted by them [TS]

  and they also have a new partnership with Getty Images so you can get forty million high quality photos for your site [TS]

  when you probably don't need all forty million [TS]

  or something in there that you need you need an image for your site if you've ever tried to buy like a you know stock [TS]

  photo or officially commercially license photo from somewhere else. [TS]

  It's usually very complicated to get the right license it's very expensive. [TS]

  I didn't for the magazine and I know how expensive that can be and how complicated that can be. [TS]

  They worked out a great partnership with Getty so that you can pick eighty forty million forty million high quality [TS]

  photos for a post for a header image for a background image whatever you need for just. [TS]

  Ten dollars an image it's really a fantastic deal [TS]

  and they take care of all of for you browse right in the square space interface is really great. [TS]

  Anyway they also have fifteen new design templates what's crisp a seven Eva Green feature called cover pages. [TS]

  This is basically you can if you like an intro page for your full site [TS]

  or it can be your site you can have it like a nice single one page site you can put it up temporarily or permanently. [TS]

  You can do it it's like a splash page to have promote promoting a sale you're having are promoting a special [TS]

  or promoting a new post you did or a new video you made. [TS]

  We're going to have a nice trendy intro page to your full site they make it beautiful to make it easy [TS]

  and I've seen this myself. [TS]

  It is really quite impressive and those kinds of used to be really hard [TS]

  and now it's really easy with square space all this very simple very powerful beautiful designs you can customize it [TS]

  was much as you want you can be a nerd like us and actually inject H.T.M.L. C.S.S. [TS]

  and Javascript right into the template. [TS]

  Or you can use their drag and drop wizard and it's all very easy is great I love using square space [TS]

  and there's so much there that like I you know our site for the show is built on Squarespace I built a square space [TS]

  safer for my kids' preschool I mean it's so just so easy to use. [TS]

  There are so many use cases for that you don't have even if you know how to build websites. [TS]

  You don't have to build every Web site you make [TS]

  and this is I would recommend using space for so many things that previously you try to do yourself [TS]

  or you try to install some hosted C.N.N.'s somewhere [TS]

  and anyway you can start a free trial today with no credit card required. [TS]

  Start building your own site when you decide to sign up. Plants are just eight dollars a month. [TS]

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  Anyway go to squarespace dot com and use offer code A.T.P. [TS]

  To get ten percent off your first purchase and to show your support for our show. [TS]

  We thank Chris bass once again for sponsoring our show Squarespace start here go anywhere do you want to go totally mad [TS]

  and talk about pod casting because people love that. So our friend Alan Pike steam clock software I wrote a great. [TS]

  Post that will lead to in the show notes. [TS]

  They basically considered and started researching the possibility of making a pod cast double and or recording app [TS]

  and in the post they go through the rationale for why they wanted it there at the Wireless think it was a market [TS]

  and as they did more research into the market [TS]

  and rents numbers they realize they actually shouldn't make it because there just aren't enough Pod casters to really [TS]

  support it like financially. The market is just not big enough for it. [TS]

  So our friend Rob Reiner Martian craft wrote kind of a follow up maybe a counterpoint argument to it. [TS]

  That was really good. [TS]

  Basically saying you're targeting professionals you know somebody who uses an app to make their ticket to do their work [TS]

  basically to make their job possible or easier or better. [TS]

  Amateurs and professionals it's easier charge more money [TS]

  and so maybe so he was saying maybe there is a way to charge more money to the to the small number of pockets which you [TS]

  might use such a thing and fund it that way. [TS]

  What do you think of these when you read them I thought they were both really really good posts. [TS]

  What I loved about Allan's was that here was someone who actually put a little bit of thought into what he was doing [TS]

  which if you know Alan is of no surprise whatsoever. [TS]

  But he actually crunch numbers like you were saying Marco [TS]

  and really thought about OK is this a viable business which is a much better way of going about things than just [TS]

  throwing something against the wall and seeing if it sticks. [TS]

  And I thought it was a really great post [TS]

  and then Rob Reiner's was equally great because he was saying well if you spend it one or two other ways that you may [TS]

  or may or may not have considered Alan there may be something there. [TS]

  And certainly both of them have built successful businesses by making intelligent business decisions [TS]

  and I think Martian craft is quite a bit bigger than steam clock so you could make an argument that Rob is coming from [TS]

  Definitely a place. It of knowledge and experience. Not that Alan isn't. [TS]

  But you know I think both of them make excellent points and whether [TS]

  or not you care about how the three of us make our podcast it's still an interesting thought process with regard to [TS]

  entering a new market. [TS]

  When I read the original post about hey we're thinking about making this particular thing up which is something I think [TS]

  we've talked about on the show before about the weird hodgepodge of things we used to do the podcast [TS]

  and how one app that put it all together would be nice if we always had the same thing as around in this thing well an [TS]

  app to put all the other be nicer but the total market for people who need this app is small [TS]

  and you know probably those those people even if you sold every single one of them is probably still not a viable [TS]

  business which is what these two posts are about. [TS]

  But that the real the real thing that I think about [TS]

  when reading the original post about this app is just how incredibly hard it would be to do this apple Well because it [TS]

  encompasses so many other applications that are in themselves complicated hard to do applications and [TS]

  and connecting things together is I think even harder than making a good audio editor a good audio recorder you know a [TS]

  good you know Skype type application where you want to call those voice communicate like trying to either integrate [TS]

  multiple apps or build those things in have them all work together is just incredibly hard to do a good job [TS]

  and I think that just the development job on this would be I'm not going to say it's harder than voters office [TS]

  or a shop is a very full featured application but it's part of the forest up one point now I can tell you that right. [TS]

  To do all that all the things that all the things that we do with the separate applications as well as we're able to do [TS]

  them with separate applications in the first verse because that's what you would need to be like especially for techno [TS]

  type people think well we get the job done now but it would be nice if we didn't have these hassles. [TS]

  But how much you know how much money I willing to give up for that and that's what that other fellow post is about [TS]

  but also how much quality am I willing to give up. For integration. [TS]

  Well if I got this application and the pricing isn't a problem but I get better results [TS]

  when I use the seven different applications that I'm already using. [TS]

  So is the downgrading controller quality or whatever for the one point overs as products. [TS]

  You know it's it's a tough sell even for the people who you know. Money's no object we don't care about the pricing. [TS]

  You can make it really expensive. [TS]

  What are you giving me that is an improvement over what I have and especially just out the gate. [TS]

  I just can't don't see how it's going to be as good as whatever system everyone's using. [TS]

  If you going to sell to new people hey you don't know how to use the seven applications [TS]

  and I guess it's really annoying if you don't want to have to deal that stuff or learn all that sort of witchcraft. [TS]

  Get this one application then I think you'd have a better shot at selling them because they don't know what it's like [TS]

  to use logic and Marco's weird audio aligner and Skype [TS]

  and all the things that we use to sort of make this all work together. They don't know how to do all that. [TS]

  So you're giving them a shortcut to getting up and running. [TS]

  But that market of people who want to do podcasting [TS]

  but don't want to learn all the other applications like how many new podcasts are coming on the scene at this point [TS]

  and how many of those people have Macs and you know the whole idea of like where you build the sentiment to link [TS]

  and download an application a little hook em into the zapper never like man I would not want to try to make the first [TS]

  version of that application at any price even if there was a huge market. [TS]

  So this application terrifies me from a development perspective because I think it would be really really hard to do [TS]

  and I still think no matter how you price that the market is really small now. [TS]

  One good thing it has going for it is there for not for integrated applications [TS]

  but for sort of expert level applications there is a market for a really really difficult to use tool that is really [TS]

  capable [TS]

  but is also like full of bugs in the vendor is annoying like there's a long history of applications where you can think [TS]

  of some whatever application you use not like logic. Good logic you know. [TS]

  Even Photoshop to some degree is like those things exist so that must be a maybe that's less possible today than it was [TS]

  but I still think those those type of applications exist but I don't know if people want to be in that software. [TS]

  Even something like not Final Cut final draft is actually kind of a weird example of that where you know most of those [TS]

  journalists like us really there's one application that everybody has to use They've got entrenched [TS]

  and the vendor is not the best vendor and people kind of have this love hate relationship with it [TS]

  but it's like it's the thing that everybody uses. [TS]

  Someone else suggested Pro Tools like that that is a thing that happened. [TS]

  That's what kind of like a dysfunctional customer [TS]

  and software vendor relationship I feel like so I wouldn't I wouldn't want to go into that. [TS]

  Even though it appears to be a viable business work experience is another example to kind of eventually went sour right. [TS]

  So I think that that is what I see as a way to make a business out of this [TS]

  but I wouldn't want to go in I wouldn't want to be in that business [TS]

  and the other side of it I was talking about like hey make it easy to use integrated my first pod casting out that will [TS]

  not give you as good a result as using the dedicated expensive applications in this mishmash with Mark a special custom [TS]

  code like it won't give you those kind of results it will be buggy and weird [TS]

  and really hard to pull off that I think is less viable because I just think there are fewer people trying to do [TS]

  podcasting That way if anything I think the only way you get entry of app like that is to target I us [TS]

  and not the MAC and somehow get an audio interface and there were like the U.S.B. [TS]

  Connector or some something like that. But then my head hurts just thinking about this. [TS]

  Yeah I mean that's like the there's a number of big problems with trying to make an app or about casting [TS]

  and you know you nailed most of them it's like like the first of all having to work with everybody's set ups is not [TS]

  trivial because this is a world where there's a huge variety a huge range of diversity of of hardware [TS]

  and hardware types hardware setups. [TS]

  You know logical setups of like you know what are you do you have four people together in a studio recording onto a [TS]

  multitrack mixer Do you have four people on Skype who are all trying to talk at the same time do you have [TS]

  or are you recording church sermons and putting that out as a feeder you're recording off of a phone. [TS]

  You have one person or a phone in Australia where three people are in the U.K. [TS]

  Trying to talk without latency like there's so many variations there. [TS]

  There's also the huge variations in budget a lot of these are a lot of pod casts are produced in radio studios [TS]

  and a lot of them are produced on people's laptops and there's everything in between. [TS]

  And all of that you have applied to what really is a very small number of producers you know overcast entire directory [TS]

  every feed I know exists. I think I have a little over two hundred thousand of them. [TS]

  What I've heard I've heard rumors about the size of i Tunes a directory being somewhere around the five hundred [TS]

  thousand number [TS]

  and if I look at the number of so over Catherine I had about one hundred eighty thousand users of those only about I [TS]

  think something like forty thousand pod casts actually have any subscribers. [TS]

  So obviously not everybody uses overcast [TS]

  but I think that's a that they can give you some idea of like roughly how many pod cast how many distinct pod casts are [TS]

  even listened to by more than a couple of people and so I would put the number around you know fifty thousand maybe. [TS]

  So you think about how many producers is that not you know not not every one of those fifty thousand that has listeners [TS]

  is produced by a unique producer. [TS]

  There's a lot of people who produce many shows radio stations Park has networks so you know how many how many people [TS]

  actually edit pod cast that are listened to by more than a couple of people that numbers are getting smaller [TS]

  and smaller [TS]

  and yes as you go to the step the search area well how many people might how many people could even use an app I make. [TS]

  And I would say generously the number of unique pod cast producers is probably less than ten thousand possibly a lot [TS]

  less than ten thousand how many of them would be even willing to use my app because a lot of these people have their [TS]

  own workflow. [TS]

  Like when this is like [TS]

  when you can sleep the pro content production of like you know the pro software markets you got to fight with people [TS]

  who used to work flows so you have to say Well look I I probably wouldn't use an Apple because I you know I that I had [TS]

  at the show and I use logic and logic is not perfect but it works [TS]

  and it's only two hundred bucks I think are three hundred two hundred so it's only two hundred bucks. [TS]

  It works and I know there's a fairly decent chance [TS]

  and I the only person using it since I know the number using it for public housing the small [TS]

  but like the number of people using this is going to be big enough that if there's a major bug it'll probably get [TS]

  caught and fixed before it hits me and [TS]

  and I know that like you know I can buy this knowing that it's going to probably work on the next version of macro S. [TS]

  Tense I will I won't be like stuck after an upgrade. It's probably maybe going to be maintained in the future. [TS]

  Like all these like you know fears that you know no one ever got fired for buying I.B.M. [TS]

  With that kind of thing like you don't want to be conservative in your choice of Pro Tools. [TS]

  And so a small app would have to fight against all of those factors for the chance to possibly win a small percentage [TS]

  of a small number of people's business. [TS]

  The worst thing for the other app competing in this area is that the other applications that people are using just have [TS]

  to add a few features to their existing mature applications like so audio editing outright. [TS]

  There's plenty of the stylish audio editing applications. [TS]

  All they have to do is add one or two [TS]

  or three features focused on podcasting say if they built in your audio alignment thing for multi-track stuff it's like [TS]

  Oh well like. [TS]

  Each one of each one of constituent apps that you use for each function like a Skype add some features focused on [TS]

  podcasting of logic if you just sort of pod casting it like you know square space already has features focus on [TS]

  podcasting like the integration of like all the different pieces that we put there in the gather. [TS]

  If they just kind of say oh yes Pike has a thing is a thing now [TS]

  and I make an audio editor so I should have a template for a podcast I shot [TS]

  and tools that are useful for people who do large multitrack podcasts and Ike And that's it [TS]

  and then it's like well now why am I using your app [TS]

  and it was so easy for them to do because there are already a great audio editor there are already a widely used [TS]

  application for talking to people over the Internet. [TS]

  It's just so hard to compete in all this said like someone did an amazing job on an application I guess even if you [TS]

  didn't do everything in-house even if it said you know edit audio an external advert [TS]

  and threw you into logical that I give it like if it didn't do the whole thing [TS]

  but just kind of integrated stuff together. [TS]

  Even that I think we would all be willing to try because we would like it to be easier so I don't think it's not like [TS]

  the idea of the application is bad it's just that the the environment for polling [TS]

  and the degree of difficulty is really high [TS]

  and I maybe maybe someone just did it for free out of the goodness of their heart [TS]

  and was an amazing developer it would be a benefit to the world but as a business it's it's tough right [TS]

  and worth their fine two point one There is an app for editing called Hinton Berg look H. [TS]

  Underscore underscore be mentioned they had actually tried this once. [TS]

  I kind of found the name distasteful because that's kind of a treasure that killed people [TS]

  but anyway so it's it's a it's a dedicated like radio journalism part has journalism kind of Abbott's made it's made [TS]

  for radio journalist to produce that that's not a podcast it is three hundred seventy five dollars to use commercially [TS]

  and it was a logical half the price. [TS]

  So they're fighting that battle already like they have to [TS]

  and I'm not so much to charge less because I don't think they could charge less [TS]

  and make enough money to survive because a number of purchase customers are so small here. [TS]

  So that's another thing to consider like there are alternative editing apps and they I don't know anybody [TS]

  and in Berg and I mean granted I don't know a lot of radio journalists but I'm sure they have users [TS]

  but that's that's a tough sell to a lot of people. [TS]

  Second [TS]

  and clarify is that you know Alan Pike's potential product was not an editing product it was just something to do the [TS]

  double ending recording [TS]

  and the number of people who do that style of pod cast production is even smaller than the number of producers. [TS]

  That's like that's a fairly rare way to produce a punk as where everybody records there and [TS]

  and then an editor combines them all and that's that's what we do here. [TS]

  That's what a few of the shows do that we know but most shows that have remote guests just record Skype [TS]

  and it's fine and you know it's not the best audio quality [TS]

  but then you avoid sync issues you avoid trying to get the person to select the right input for that for the program [TS]

  that's recording the thing or having them having them have to buy piazza or call recorder [TS]

  or something like that like it avoids a lot of issues to just record a Skype feeds that's what most people do. [TS]

  That was that was one of the big pitches of this is like the difficulty of getting guests like so if you're going to [TS]

  have a podcast where you have guests [TS]

  and you know you don't want to limit yourself to guess you know how to do pod casting you have to have some way to say [TS]

  hey can person who probably owns a computer but knows nothing about podcasts. [TS]

  Do these simple steps [TS]

  and you will be able to talk to us over the Internet in a way that you will be participating in a live podcast [TS]

  and appear recorder podcast [TS]

  and it's kind of like the same problem like concrete copal is trying to solve a radio you need to screen share with [TS]

  your relatives to help them with their computer problems. [TS]

  It's difficult over the phone to you know get them to initiate screen Jerrine So here he just send them an email has a [TS]

  link to click the link because three buttons and your you're connected to them right. [TS]

  That's a very difficult problem [TS]

  and I think that problem is easier than the problem of hey do these simple steps person who's not too familiar with [TS]

  computers and you are now talking live with me and possibly recording your own locally on your. [TS]

  It's going to surely fast enough to keep up with this and you want to like it just [TS]

  and your audio input will be through the right stuff [TS]

  and it's just doing that part of it just the guest application even that is really hard to do. Co-pilot. [TS]

  I don't know that's the thing I've tried to use it a few times the mac version did not go well for me. [TS]

  Kind of I kind of sort of got it to limp through what it was I paid for it like many times like they had abysmal [TS]

  or you pay someone you can use it for like an hour or something. [TS]

  In desperation I've tried it it's a good idea but it was not smooth sailing at all [TS]

  and so even that's not a solved problem many people have tried including Apple with the i Chat stuff [TS]

  and podcast until it has a certain degree of built in complexity like you're dealing with microphones [TS]

  and people's random computer's random environments and random internet connections. [TS]

  There's a reason why I like you know if you have a regular show with regular guests like the three of us it's worth it [TS]

  whether for the three of us to have like you know each recorded separately because we're always the same people all [TS]

  three of us were willing and able to buy a nice microphone and have a quiet room where you record [TS]

  and you use software that records it and we tragically able to do that and to do it reliably and [TS]

  and all of our net connections we know are solid enough [TS]

  and we even live geographically close enough that it's not usually a problem. [TS]

  So none of these things are problems for us. So that's why we choose to do the show that way. [TS]

  But again like like if you're if you're having a new guest every week that's a tough thing to coordinate [TS]

  and it's you know it's hard enough getting them a microphone to even use Skype properly [TS]

  and you know to add in the complexity of are you recording the right thing in going to send me your file that's you [TS]

  know that's it's not worth it in the market for that it's is extremely small [TS]

  and it's not in the way the big shows do this by the way the way the big shows do the how do you get a guest up [TS]

  and running in everything as they throw humans that like so someone will contact you the day [TS]

  or week before they will they will mail you a maggot. Phone in the mail. [TS]

  The person will contact you and make sure your setup is correct [TS]

  and walk you through laboriously over the phone over video over whatever they can do to make sure your setup is correct [TS]

  so that when the actual show goes you have a set up that is known [TS]

  and validated to be working by one member of their staff that is incredibly expensive as a way more expensive than [TS]

  buying a three hundred dollar application or a five hundred thousand or application [TS]

  or one hundred dollars a month application [TS]

  but that has a lot higher chance of success I think than the application will take care of it for you probably still [TS]

  going to need that human to walk the person through these supposedly so simple set up because of physical factors not [TS]

  even the software you know software is perfect [TS]

  and beyond all that like if you go to take Rob Reiner's approach of saying like well they charge more money like this [TS]

  is where the people beyond all the problems of it being a really small market of people who are producing these things [TS]

  and want to try your app is also some severe budget problems for most people like most people you know podcasting is a [TS]

  podcasting well are using high quality stuff is already a tough sell because you're already asking people to spend a [TS]

  few hundred dollars on it on a decent mike in some kind of setup there may be a pop filter maybe anti-shock thing like [TS]

  orbits are mounted all the stuff that I'll call record as of the thirty bucks [TS]

  and you know something like maybe logic that of two hundred dollars [TS]

  or maybe garage band the program keeps getting worse for pod cast [TS]

  and each new version like it's you're already asked me to spend a lot of money. [TS]

  Already most people are not willing to do that most pod cast are not produced that way. [TS]

  Most pod cast are produced from people's built in mikes and headsets [TS]

  and I fill in my stuff like that like it's there you know they don't sound very good [TS]

  but a lot of people like you can ask like you know maybe maybe some church recording it's sermons [TS]

  and everything they don't have maybe the money to buy logic you know like there's like there's all this so many [TS]

  processors out there who are not going to be spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on software [TS]

  and gear to do this and that's like that will always be the case that is always going to be most produce. [TS]

  There's we're going to be doing it as a hobby or on a low budget and you have to account for that and so that's like. [TS]

  I agree I agree with Rob Ryan that you that a professional app should be priced accordingly [TS]

  but I don't think there's enough pod cast producers to ever support something like this any time soon. [TS]

  In defense of Rob's post if you could snap your fingers [TS]

  and make the theoretical application like come into existence that is awesome [TS]

  and all the stuff it does everything is high quality the integrated is relatively bug free like that really provides [TS]

  the benefit. [TS]

  Then all his various pricing strategies could probably work out [TS]

  but the prerequisite is you actually have an application that helps people make money like that. [TS]

  That is more convenient for them that produces better results [TS]

  and less time that has fewer bugs that its features that would be difficult you know like they can replace a fractional [TS]

  portion of a staff or that you would need right then it may be viable and [TS]

  but even then it's borderline because you don't have the benefit I think it was another Joe article like the different [TS]

  kind of software you sell the cheap free stuff that random for [TS]

  and by the the street the sort of consumer applications that you can sell to an individual who's going to buy you know [TS]

  application for like you know the buy for shop for themselves or whatever and then [TS]

  and that's like a hundred bucks a couple hundred bucks [TS]

  or maybe like a small monthly subscription fee then there's a gigantic chasm and then your starting price thirty grand. [TS]

  Right and that's like and and I write software you're selling it to a business to business. [TS]

  This is such an essential part of their business that thirty grand [TS]

  or you know let's use the Oracle pricing model how the percentage of revenue has that feel to how much money do you [TS]

  have not profit revenue yet contact us for pricing that is just a huge a huge gap between like a couple hundred bucks [TS]

  maybe pushing a thousand and then up into the multiple thousands and there's not much in that middle ground there [TS]

  and I don't know park I think is not at the point now where it can be sold as enterprise software for the most part [TS]

  there are enterprise that are doing it made. Kind of like I don't know maybe like Twitter or T.V. [TS]

  Network is trying to a podcast like The Daily Show [TS]

  but even those I think of like to go shop I guess is not you know you can sell them thirty grand Pike I think they're [TS]

  just putting stuff together [TS]

  and I don't know if that market will ever exist for sort of enterprise level sales because even in the entertainment [TS]

  industry like you know my or whatever is a couple grand but it's not sixty grand. [TS]

  Whereas Oracle you know helps the businesses and their their checks have a lot of zero. [TS]

  So well in the end all the proposed casters who were doing it like from studios are as part of bigger companies they [TS]

  already have their workload established like you're going to get them with a with a new tool at this because they [TS]

  already have their already set up with how they do things was started on core intuition semi recently that Daniel [TS]

  jacket was talking about how I think this may be fast Cripps is that his as I write a script a little description using [TS]

  the keyboard circuits and so he had written it in had like Percy licensing model or something like that [TS]

  and then he got approached by some company and they said we want to buy it for the entire company [TS]

  and I forget exactly how we phrased it [TS]

  but I parent he came up with some number that he thought was so ridiculous they would basically laugh at him [TS]

  and that's what they paid [TS]

  and that's kind of what you guys are talking about is you know you find there's eventually at a time [TS]

  when a company will pay just absurd amount of money in order to get this app [TS]

  but I agree with you that finding podcasters to do this is going to be challenging. [TS]

  Yeah and maybe someday there will be enough Pod casters to make this a viable market. [TS]

  But today there are there is just simply are not that many [TS]

  and they were so far from that like it's not like there were that many. [TS]

  They're going to be that many next year [TS]

  but I'm even making this app like we're pretty far from there being enough to support things like this. [TS]

  So in conclusion somebody make this awesome apps we will buy it and tell you what's wrong with it [TS]

  and you out of business then I probably wouldn't buy it. I already have our workflow. [TS]

  We would totally get it to make you buy a parka. [TS]

  We would send one of us to go get it probably Marco Marco try to not use it because he doesn't like things that other [TS]

  people make. And additionally as a good son as a good summary. [TS]

  Moreover on top of that we are meeting you John but certainly Mark [TS]

  and I are of an age where we grew up trying to find ways to acquire things without paying a lot of money. [TS]

  And well I think I speak for all of us and saying we're willing to spend money here and there when it's appropriate [TS]

  when we think it's reasonable. [TS]

  If we have a workflow that works that is not something that we necessarily that's not a problem in a surly want to [TS]

  throw money at. [TS]

  And and that's what I think Marco is saying is that we have something that works [TS]

  and if it's a lot if it's just way easier then OK but if it's just a bit easier. [TS]

  Whenever I've been afraid to describe seven that's free. [TS]

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  When the common this is where this ties into what we're just saying when the dot com was a big help to me [TS]

  and learning how to use logic to edit this podcast and to make the audio sound there were things like compressors [TS]

  and the cues and limiters and stuff like that. [TS]

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  All right John tell us about the video games on the i Phone. One that you've been playing lately. [TS]

  Just one game which I think Marco's blathers I guess you haven't seen the game is cross the road. [TS]

  Everybody's playing it's very popular these days. [TS]

  I like the name until I realize that it's probably an attempt to cash in on the flappy bird [TS]

  and you made that connection with your I liked it so much better before I mean I still think it's a good name anyway [TS]

  the game is like kind of like Frogger if you remember that if you know you can do it like in there far as I want to [TS]

  talk about this game what I talk about is the monetization strategy of this game. [TS]

  Purges simultaneously confusing and depressing [TS]

  but maybe I still don't quite understand the way things are working these days. [TS]

  So it's a it's a popular game it's really well done. [TS]

  I think we could have easily sell different on United sense but they didn't decide to go free to play. [TS]

  Fine that's but you know that people are doing these days. [TS]

  But to cross the road is either really bad at free to play which makes it a good or [TS]

  or I don't understand how that stuff works so most free to play games have to find some way to get money from you [TS]

  somehow in the game by buying things that help you in the game or showing you ads or both [TS]

  and cross the road has both of those things [TS]

  and has characters that you can use in the game you can buy different character starts off of the chicken you can buy [TS]

  all sorts of other characters as in game currency that you get that you can find is that a coin [TS]

  and you get some currency [TS]

  and you can use that currency to redeem him kind of like a gumball machine that gives you characters for free [TS]

  and the time base mechanic where you get a free gift based on how long you plan to get all the things you kind of an [TS]

  energy mechanic how long do you have to play how much longer until I get a new for you to tell me coins I collect [TS]

  and you buy the players with actual real money you know ninety nine cents each or whatever [TS]

  and it seems like a reasonably good monetization strategy [TS]

  but the characters don't make the game any easier for you so they don't give you extra powers they don't give you extra. [TS]

  Lies they don't give you any time that in fact a lot of the characters make the game harder for you instead of easier. [TS]

  So the only motivation to buy them is kind of like buying hats and counterstrike [TS]

  or whatever like you know it's a frivolous thing [TS]

  and that has worked in the past so maybe I'm not quite understanding it [TS]

  but they're not pressuring pressuring you to buy things in the game you can play it and you don't have to buy things [TS]

  and they have a little put thing where you can see an ad [TS]

  and they just present you like a little icon shows like a little movie which I don't think. [TS]

  Yeah same for Chris too sorry Charles correct me where the hats were they were I was going to have a book [TS]

  and they're not really there are thirty nine or a little movie strip [TS]

  and then a low calling to him over ever saying hey if you watch this movie we will give you points of course as an ad [TS]

  if you tap on that it shows you nad for some other game you know they get some money of that Adam [TS]

  and you get this in game currency that you can eventually redeem in little gumball machine for random characters you [TS]

  can get These are the same characters that you could buy otherwise free to point it out of might have been Jason [TS]

  and his thing I was writing about Christ he wrote that the fundamental problem with their monetization strategy from [TS]

  the outside it from some is playing is I think it's more fun not to pay any money to play this game. [TS]

  It's more fun to play the game itself is fun getting coins in the game it's fun. [TS]

  Redeeming them a little gumball machine for a random guy is fun [TS]

  and you don't feel like you're missing anything to feel like boy if I could pay the ninety nine cents I guess I get the [TS]

  power that lets me like walk on water for two steps and I would really help you or like there's none of that [TS]

  and so it isn't entirely like for the most part friendly to the user not in your face it does prompt a couple times say [TS]

  hey do you want notifications when the century our energy meter runs out and you can see [TS]

  when you should come back to the game and play again. [TS]

  But you can say no like it presents an end game may be presented a few more times than it should [TS]

  and maybe little kids like watching my kids play it. [TS]

  They will watch the ads they have the coins because they want to get the other characters so I guess they're getting [TS]

  some ad revenue for that but I just look at this game and like boy I wish I could give you some money for this game [TS]

  but I don't want any. [TS]

  The characters like I've got all the ones I got I got it was more fun for me to get them for free [TS]

  and now I have them and they don't make the game any easier anyway so I'm concerned. [TS]

  But two things I would start across the road is the development of a millionaire right now is swimming in a bathtub [TS]

  full of money saying that's great good you tell me how I should run my business [TS]

  but it's puzzling to me because it seems to do everything wrong like from the perspective of the evil free to play [TS]

  games like learns to extract money from people. [TS]

  So I guess what I'm saying is you should all go out and across the road it's a great game [TS]

  and I really hope the developer is swimming in a bucket full of money [TS]

  but I just don't figure out how they would be unless everybody is looking to build them and it wouldn't surprise me [TS]

  and I'm trying to look around trying to look at the after DO YOU KNOW WHERE place is on the top grossing list. [TS]

  Oh I don't know I don't look at those things because it's number four on the top free list [TS]

  but it would not surprise me if it actually if you're right that it actually isn't making that much [TS]

  when I don't even when you were describing. I only played a handful of times you know. [TS]

  Thanks yeah i literally have all times I don't I don't I don't like the kind of game but like I forgot like [TS]

  when somebody says oh my God This game is great you have to play it. [TS]

  I'll go and buy in the App Store and I will forget what the up front price is whether it was free [TS]

  or not I just want to remember. Because it's like OK so cheap it's a dollar Who cares. [TS]

  Or three and so I didn't even realize this was a monetization scheme. [TS]

  I played the game a handful of times like you can probably expect many people to have done who have downloaded it I [TS]

  didn't even realize that's how it was monetized I like that's a problem. [TS]

  He might make it up in volume though because this is a super popular game [TS]

  and like I said Little kids do want to see the ads [TS]

  or maybe all the money is made by showing ads little kids to buy other games that [TS]

  and I think people will buy the other characters but I mean to give my other yards they go so far. [TS]

  My son who was sent an undisclosed amount of money I spend an undisclosed amount of money on Clash of Clans [TS]

  and the amount is large. Well that's that's very different though. But he is susceptible to not purchase. [TS]

  He has not asked me once to buy him one of these sets. [TS]

  It is not fur is not he's not shy about asking me to you know press this button in a way that I can read tweets on the [TS]

  day about someone who woke up and found their kid slowly trying to move their finger on to the Touch ID [TS]

  and phone call they were asleep to try to do any purchase so you know watches get like he's not shy about asking [TS]

  and he has not asked once that shows me that as whoever it is who wrote this again maybe Jason it's more fun to play [TS]

  the game to unlock this stuff for free than it is to buy that is more fun so why would you have the other thing is less [TS]

  fun you're paying money to have less fun. I mean like it would not surprise me if this really isn't doing that well. [TS]

  Like others that like so I just think the whole if I couldn't find the top one hundred fifty top grossing so I don't [TS]

  know where it is but it's probably not high. [TS]

  Somebody said this adds another incident where you said you can you can click on a little thing that says look at this [TS]

  Adam will give you you know twenty coins or whatever [TS]

  but it's not even showing the ad during a game play with the way the burden whether they'd put up a dialog box puts a [TS]

  dollar mark here are your options if you have more than one hundred coins you can redeem a hundred of them right now on [TS]

  the gumball machine if you might have a free gift on the time base mechanic which will give you one of those things you [TS]

  can buy because even playing for a long time or press a thing will show you how to give you twenty points but like [TS]

  but as a player like when we even need to do that like one of that you never need to do [TS]

  and what one of the things one of the things that I got from the gumball machine was five hundred points which is [TS]

  basically like five three characters like it's an understand. [TS]

  So I just opened up to to see like you know how this is and like so so far playing this game [TS]

  and I'm seeing no ad I'm seeing no solicitation for buying these coins are doing it go die [TS]

  and you'll see a little things as free gift and if you have over a hundred Corell Yeah you know I sort of did before [TS]

  and I had no idea what that was [TS]

  and that's why so like the little icon that shows the filmstrip I don't know if kids know what film looks like the [TS]

  value lawyer but the little notches so [TS]

  when you do an icon like the old telephone handset icon much I guess kids are kind of socialized to know means phone [TS]

  because the icon. [TS]

  Our phones [TS]

  but whatever it is cellular filmstrips with the little holes in the edges I don't know if people know that anyway. [TS]

  There's a little symbol looks like that and it shows clients Oh here's this Kumble thing L. Case I'm seeing this now. [TS]

  I saw this once before I had no idea I could even pay anything and here I thought it was literally a free gift [TS]

  and I just get this you know this weird cow or something you have and you can't pay there you can go. [TS]

  Like when you start the game [TS]

  when you start the game there's a little thing where you can change your character in the lower left [TS]

  and if you scroll through all the characters have ninety nine cents underneath this is the worst monetise popular game [TS]

  ever seen. [TS]

  Well that's one thing I don't know if it is like we're on the outside we don't know how much my Again this person could [TS]

  already be a millionaire We have no idea what's going on [TS]

  but it's on so I feel that has developed because whatever they're making they could be making a lot more. [TS]

  Yeah I would have paid five ninety nine for this game is an amazingly well done game I mean granted this is Frogger you [TS]

  know he didn't make a frog or whatever but execution wise and like fit for you know for input method [TS]

  and viewing contracts and retina screens [TS]

  and everything it's it's beautiful it's amazing I mean even if they were just and I had on the top [TS]

  or bottom like just like a bird and that would annoy me and it would make the game less fun. [TS]

  Well and you can pay a dollar to to hide it I would have to pay that instantly. [TS]

  Right like that that itself I guarantee you whatever monetization they're doing with this app with this weird pointing [TS]

  I guarantee you what I just said with an eye and a dollar to hide it would have done at least ten times better. [TS]

  But you wouldn't have done that because you would have felt bad about it happen like that. [TS]

  This not if you buy all these characters that are ninety nine cents a like twenty of them I think you could spend like [TS]

  twenty or thirty bucks on this game. But even but as you said look there's really no reason to. [TS]

  Well I mean again maybe it was just in my experience and in my kids experience it seems like there's not. [TS]

  But maybe other people again with buying the hats and Team Fortress two [TS]

  and all that stuff like maybe go on horse armor there's another gaming reference where you like maybe people do want to [TS]

  buy them and don't want to unlock them and just can't live unless they have a Dark Lord as their character. [TS]

  Characters are cool and they do change the game they really need you know I can't help. [TS]

  But feel like we spent the beginning of this episode talking about how the spammy push notifications are really [TS]

  cheapening your product and it's a terrible way to go [TS]

  and now we're ending the episode by saying oh you should put ads on this thing you would made a fortune. [TS]

  Thanks a lot of people. They can but I tell you what. [TS]

  Everyone go down this game for free play it for five or ten minutes and if you think it's worth something. [TS]

  Pay ninety nine cents for the favorite character dress and by the way I said they changed the [TS]

  and they changed the graphics and again they don't change the gameplay only to sometimes make it harder [TS]

  but for example if you buy the penguin spoiler makes everything else snowy it's adorable. [TS]

  Just what even like what you said what you said like like the whole idea like oh I got this game for free I'm enjoying [TS]

  it so much I want to give the money I forgot how much you pay for the game. [TS]

  Days after buying it and it was free maybe you thought you had given us the money but you didn't. Well exactly. [TS]

  So many people I bet like they don't like you know a lot of people only buy free stuff or download free stuff [TS]

  and that's fine. [TS]

  But there's a lot of people like me who are like you'll pay a dollar for a game without really thinking about it. [TS]

  And so like if you see a game that has no ads [TS]

  and no obvious spam to try to monetize I would assume I prepared for this [TS]

  and not even think about giving the Mormon in the future. All right. I think we're done. [TS]

  Anyway thanks a lot to our four sponsors this week studio neat Harry's Squarespace and Linda dot com [TS]

  and we will see you next week. Now to be as it was accidental accidental found because it was that was accidental. [TS]

  Yes he was accepted that scandalous and I should both give this game [TS]

  and I think I'm friends with all of you have this game and all point more. [TS]

  I just played it on the air I can't like this is we had a punk that's where pod casting fall I play in cross he wrote [TS]

  on the Air Force test over it really. [TS]

  My favorite feature of the game which I feel better most point of and you see it it's just really really well done. [TS]

  Is that your game center friends that when they play of course it records a score and you can see a leader board [TS]

  and all that stuff but [TS]

  when you're playing the game you'll see the name of the person written across the farthest distance that they've made [TS]

  it their highest score you know I was I was the Marco Arment on like you know thirty [TS]

  or whatever your pathetic score is the ground so you literally hop over their name when you're beating their score. [TS]

  It's brilliant cool [TS]

  and I was trying to I kept trying to contact Jason I think he left I sent him private messages I sent to my AMS What I [TS]

  was trying to do is send a friend request from my son's game centre account to his because Jason has the highest score [TS]

  of anyone on my friends list but my son I think has been him [TS]

  and I want to give my son motivation to beat somebody score so I said if they could just get him to be friends Jason [TS]

  then he would have you know I did because when Jason in the second place. [TS]

  All right so I have an I haven't got an app for years now figures lets you browse other apps rankings. [TS]

  So I'm showing you know the rankings pretty consistent. [TS]

  It is if you look at just free like on the free chart it is in the it's in the top five most of the times across the [TS]

  road is really in the top five and I look at it like what category looking at. [TS]

  It's and it's in the top one through Ford and games. [TS]

  Oh it's number twelve overall new number thirteen you know we look at. [TS]

  So we're talking like this is like this is the number twelve most downloaded free app in the App Store for for the last [TS]

  you know while. So that's a very very high rank probably tens of thousands of installs per day. [TS]

  Now if you look at the top grossing in i Phone top grossing is around the two hundredth place. [TS]

  So it's placing number fifteen of top downloads. [TS]

  Number two hundred top grossing and i Phone and i Pad It's like number three hundred. [TS]

  So it's even worse an i Pad That is I mean I'm sure I'm sure the developers are making decent money on that [TS]

  but the money they're making is not proportional to the downloads they're getting at all. [TS]

  Like it's like that's a very bad ratio for how popular this game is how popular it has been for the last couple of for [TS]

  the last week or two [TS]

  or where they have a lot of been out that is not generating a ton of money for for that level downloads [TS]

  and I think it shows like just getting a bunch of people if you have some kind of premium monetization scheme like this [TS]

  you have to also say like the pain point of what you're paying for. [TS]

  You have to set that with with some thought as well they just had to be smart business you know ranking in the four [TS]

  hundred in the abstract I'm guessing atop my head I'm guessing that's five thousand dollars a day [TS]

  or less for a game this popular that's not great. [TS]

  That's that's really like that help of getting really ripped off and it's basically. [TS]

  But by their own creation here by by not giving enough of a reason for people to pay and also not putting an ad in it [TS]

  or not putting a price on it like it [TS]

  and I guess I feel bad for whoever made this because it's it's clearly like the world is getting a lot more value out [TS]

  of this than what they're being ultimately paid for. [TS]

  So real time follow up I am playing this game and it's weird but I'm looking at my leaderboard and. [TS]

  It's going from bottom to top me with twenty eight. My friend Eric we lander with thirty four Marco is forty three. [TS]

  Adam Swindon with sixty three John Surtees a one fifty seven [TS]

  and then SALIE Dan provost of studio need three hundred eighty four. [TS]

  Wow yeah I haven't really broken through in this game yet. [TS]

  You know you're on that John I mean we don't stand a chance [TS]

  but you you might find a problem with that with the control scheme [TS]

  and like I have my own sort of energy meter in the game where I'm just serious cases now if I play if I play it more [TS]

  than two times my I have diminishing returns in the controller know the computers cheating Marco it was a computer [TS]

  error. [TS]

  Now the ultimate I mean like obviously the tap [TS]

  and if this is one of those games where the ultimate interface I feel I could be if I could hook up a D. [TS]

  Pad [TS]

  or a joystick to this early the game would be a minimum time of course to learn part of the game is like yeah you know [TS]

  part of the game is the control scheme is not quite that they used to have to go forward [TS]

  but swipe for the other three directions and frequently I will initiate an action [TS]

  and get the wrong action like basically it'll hop for when I really meant to be a swipe back to left [TS]

  or the right because the controls are not that precise but that's all part of the game you know anyway. [TS]

  Really what I do best is when I'm not paying attention. [TS]

  Like I just I just sort of look absent mindedly the screen around the algorithm [TS]

  and I find myself crossing into the hundreds and on there are some crossing two hundred good service and die [TS]

  but there are only two or three games and then I you know go back to the desert golfing or something. [TS]

  Yeah I've actually been playing a lot of desert golfing it's amazing desert golfing cross the road is a better game [TS]

  and as a governor of a great concern. I spent a lot more time as a governor. [TS]

  Time now I believe it [TS]

  but that's not I don't think it's I'm currently on a whole two hundred seventeen farther than that [TS]

  but my Of course my Doesn't golfing score is not good as a governor is brutal. [TS]

  I'm at the seven hundred forty three structure being a hole to seventy in my school. [TS]

  It's just terrible because like it's a whole game section. [TS]

  Does does or golfing it's punishing in that like it's brilliant [TS]

  and pure in that you watch the game you start playing that's it [TS]

  when you realize the game puts you back to where you were. [TS]

  That's it no saves no loading screen no menus no one do you can't even reset it can you know start you can and start [TS]

  and you can start again. [TS]

  Like that's it the game is the game the best thing would be like if they actually Stuart Stuart it's what your score [TS]

  and i Cloud so that you couldn't even research right now is no [TS]

  but then you need to have like it would be like singing [TS]

  and everything is just brutally like this is the game you are now playing the game of didn't like that stroke you would [TS]

  never get it back. [TS]

  There's no mulligan there's no undo there's no resetting anything going from left to right [TS]

  and terrible physics engine that is just filled to the brim with B.S. Because I cannot leave. [TS]

  However they programmed me. YOU PLAYED IT market like oh you're not going to roll down that hill. [TS]

  That doesn't make any sense. [TS]

  It just like stops in the middle of one hill but any other hill or down the entire thing slow it right [TS]

  and even just the physics of bounce thing like the angle of incidence does not equal the anvil angle of reflection in [TS]

  any universe forget about sense emulation this is not even if you had a rigid body physics is B.S. [TS]

  In this game and yet I play it because you just launch it and what you do when you get in the ball in the hole [TS]

  and you quit whenever you want and you come back to be right where you left off. [TS]

  And yeah I did sixteen strokes not Hulk it was pissing me off for the next one I got on my me just keep going. [TS]

  Yeah I love. [TS]

  In fact speaking about Pike on his on his video game I believe is called up up down down there right now anyway. [TS]

  He interviewed the creator of this sometime recently and I love the guy [TS]

  and said like you know like the first time you get a hole in one you expect like some kind of like congratulations [TS]

  and just nothing happens like you get it goes to the next hole. That's no different than any other score. [TS]

  A lesson about life this is really not the next game we need to get General Honore to play although I think about [TS]

  probably bounce off of it but if he ever comes out of his three stupor. [TS]

  There's a golf thing does or golfing can teach you something profound about life I think. [TS]

  Kind of in the same way the Demon's Souls can I absolutely love it. [TS]

  Mark real time follow up I now have forty sixty [TS]

  or forty three so I can put the game down to hop over the named engine was not fun I didn't like his name it looked [TS]

  like gobbledygook and I think you've never actually played Frogger [TS]

  or had heard of it before I mentioned it here I had heard of it you big jerk but no I never played it. [TS]

  However I did see I think I've even seen the segment on Seinfeld. I didn't even watch Seinfeld. [TS]

  That's where you know right from here. Anyway this is better than for a lot of them hard now. [TS]

  Now I can construct a plain stupid game I hate you too. Just installed us forgot it will calm you back down. [TS]

  Those are golfing. Does it go. [TS]

  Yes sorry does or golfing like according to the Gulf Do people are going to search for the name to find it. [TS]

  Then does their golfing as you pay money for it [TS]

  and at that you pay money you get the game this is the game was it a dollar [TS]

  or two you are now playing the game I remember it was I have gotten so much enjoyment of the game because I [TS]

  and I know how like how abusive it is and yet I keep playing like it is satisfying [TS]

  and I think I was saying it like like there are so many games it just it just like a constant like showering you with [TS]

  praise and with rewards. [TS]

  Anything you do anything you're amazing here's some fireworks you get a bonus coin for your cow it's like this is [TS]

  there's none of that like you just play the game and [TS]

  when you succeed in doing each hole you just move on to the next hole. [TS]

  That's it and again and the game is cruel and arbitrary an anchor incorrectly programmed [TS]

  but you love it just like life the only thing that makes you mad about this game is that I didn't make it to this is [TS]

  like I've always kind of wanted to make a game and you could've made this. [TS]

  Yeah and there's not a lot of games that I'm technically qualified to make and I totally could have done this [TS]

  but I just never thought of it. [TS]

  The trick in the tricky part is the procedural generation with a twist of the levels I think that is the. [TS]

  Because the genius of this game is it just goes on and on and on like how can I go on [TS]

  and on to the human layout all these levels know it's procedurally generated but not just is it. [TS]

  Yeah it is an article about Xander view it's a pretty large area [TS]

  but not random so there is human influence over it somehow that like particular holes have certain attention paid to [TS]

  them I don't know the details he didn't really have but it's for the most part procedurally generated [TS]

  but with a human touch to you know when you're stuck on a hole that is particularly difficult. [TS]

  I always see the you know the touch of the human you know scoring with you there. Right. [TS]

  Like there's been like a like a big ramp up to the hole on both sides. [TS]

  You instantly roll off of anything and we're in little ledges [TS]

  and so if you can see kind of see the human touch there [TS]

  but there's so many levels you know that you can get up to the cactus yet I don't know where that is because a cactus. [TS]

  Yeah I well I mean I actually enjoy this game it's crazy like I was I took so many friggin screenshot that I can't say [TS]

  I knew it was coming in there are other things out there in the distance too [TS]

  but I don't want to I don't want to ruin what it says it's not frog fractions which you've both never heard of [TS]

  but trust me that's an apt comparison. [TS]

  So it is not frog traction [TS]

  and there golfing is the opposite of progress action applying that the funny thing is in the lake nothing the little [TS]

  thing will full of game development I've done one of the things I've done is a procedural terrain generator for a [TS]

  scorched earth style game which is this stuff I actually already have an algorithm to do that [TS]

  and I don't have the things that like you know make sure that the hole is reachable in some reasonable way. [TS]

  Yes that's one thing like procedure generally dangerous because you can get on a little ball specially with this B.S. [TS]

  You get on one of the holes you have to be careful and [TS]

  and the other thing is like so you precision are generated you hope you have rules so you don't make them in a hole [TS]

  but you have to play through them all to make sure and that's the worst punishment of all. [TS]

  We so so like is my whole two or three the same as your whole two or three. [TS]

  Yes yes it's determined if they were the seed and ever in the levels that with him although he said he might change. [TS]

  A future and might change some of the later levels I won't tell you what later means but you'll be depressed. [TS]

  Like over a thousand. [TS]

  Just just trying to go [TS]

  and I was really trying to think of like if I never uninstalled is game out I'll run this until it doesn't run on my [TS]

  phone anymore. [TS]

  Just keep going like the numbers will keep going up the ball keep going in the hole I will keep getting angry at the [TS]

  physics for was a huge on the tweeted about how you has to go sixty four bit now because again I'm stuffed. [TS]

  Yeah well I retreated somebody that's notably the same thing and if you can I mean wow. [TS]

  They're using sign thirty two bit like animals now. [TS]