The Accidental Tech Podcast

70: The Endgame Is Omnipotence


  Right so the show bodies up again so far as you know on that last you still centering the titles comma K.Z. [TS]

  One what's wrong with that. What's wrong with that. Yeah. Besides it's like daggers in your eyes. [TS]

  Impossible to read that other than that no one can how did you like the flat forms crazy shapes that mean nothing if I [TS]

  turned the entire thing into a jar rush hour test with a man with a hat looking at me. [TS]

  Is this person's name actually Jason discount Not only is this person's name Jason discount but I knew this person [TS]

  when I was a kid. So you know this is actually his real name. Yes it is his real name. [TS]

  I think it was in Australia now but he used to live like you know a town over from me so his name is Jason discount [TS]

  and he's e-mailing us about repressing discounts. Yeah finally a legitimate reason for him to have that name. [TS]

  He's been waiting his whole life for this moment when a podcast said something wrong about discount price. [TS]

  It's not wrong this is that I don't think any of us brought up this specific scenario [TS]

  when complaining about the confusing bundle pricing as a way to do upgrades [TS]

  and he gives the example of what's a US release application at six dollars [TS]

  and then you work on your second version of the application and you want to sell them for six dollars two [TS]

  but you only want people to build upgrade from version one for two dollars. [TS]

  So his strategy for this is if you reduce the first version to four dollars [TS]

  and make the bundle price of both of them together six dollars if someone actually buys the old app it still only cost [TS]

  them a total six dollars to buy the new app [TS]

  and of course anybody already has the new app can buy the bundle to complete this bundle to get it for two dollars. [TS]

  I don't think it's entirely solve because one of somebody has the old app [TS]

  and actually buys the new out for six dollars then they're out four dollars [TS]

  but oh that's a whole other angle you're right yeah because there's nothing like you can't like there's nothing [TS]

  stopping them from individually buying the absolute full price theory right unless the store was like detect they [TS]

  bought one only. For them to complete their bundle. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  but the idea of lowering the price of the old one that you have to keep on the star so that if anyone actually buys it [TS]

  there you know it they they're not [TS]

  and they've paid the same price anyway if they actually buy a bike I'll just buy the bundle then you can get the new [TS]

  one for the same price you would've paid for if you bought it individually [TS]

  but they still the full price new one out there lurking is a problem with this whole thing is around about [TS]

  and trying to explain it is confusing and that's why it's a bad idea but I still think people are going to try it. [TS]

  Will say I still maintain that it's a terrible idea [TS]

  and that nobody should do it because at best it's fairly confusing for your customers. [TS]

  At worst if you do things wrong cost them extra money and then extra money that you can't easily refund them [TS]

  and they will be angry about [TS]

  and leave you want star reviews about like the thing with the one star reviews like it only takes something angering a [TS]

  very small percentage of the user base. [TS]

  In order for them to suddenly become the dominant voice in your reviews because very few people review things even if [TS]

  you get even if you show them one of those annoying pop ups still a very small percentage of people actually review [TS]

  your apps [TS]

  and so it doesn't take much like if you if you cause an issue that really really angers a tiny fraction of user base [TS]

  that will become disproportionately influential in your ratings and reviews [TS]

  and all the discussion about your app on line and that's really not good. [TS]

  People are much more motivated to actually sit down and figure out how how you go about leaving your view [TS]

  when they're mad about something. [TS]

  Whereas if they love your app they may briefly think you know the person who made this happen. [TS]

  Nice and I want to do something to help them write help like that that thought goes away quickly [TS]

  and I go back to their life. [TS]

  So quick side note one of my favorite things to do which I immediately don't do very often is if I for some reason have [TS]

  to call it safe arising or something because there's an issue which almost never happens [TS]

  or if I have really a really really great server at a restaurant occasionally I like to ask for their manager just to [TS]

  say something really nice because I feel I could put some good. [TS]

  Army in the world and maybe the karma will come back one day he said you asked to talk to their manager [TS]

  and they feel I go what I do. [TS]

  Yeah that's the best part is to kind of know it's not the best part you just talk torturing these people. [TS]

  No but then but then usually a but then I'm extremely If you sieve about how wonderful they are. [TS]

  Now that's that's like calling condemned the principal's office randomly and you know freaking him out [TS]

  and saying I just want to say hi to you has your day go. [TS]

  Well sometimes a lot of times I'll say you know I'd let you know that this was really awesome Can I tell manager [TS]

  but sometimes I don't Sometimes I like to mess mess around and you know you're mad with power Casey Casey. [TS]

  We need to talk. [TS]

  Fine you know I'm just going to be quiet for you trying to say something nice about if you had a you know that's a good [TS]

  you know if your motivation is good the thing you're trying to do is that the way you're doing it is not great. [TS]

  Which sounds a lot like the show but you get that you know that practice makes perfect right. Are games movies. [TS]

  All right is there going to give the spoiler so I need to go away again because I genuinely honestly did not listen to [TS]

  that part of the show it's not going to be. [TS]

  Well it's not a bad journey it's about the whole is Apple said to disrupt Microsoft [TS]

  and Sony in that all conversation we had lots of people tweeted about that I know there was a whole podcast about it [TS]

  that it in my queue but I haven't yet listened to that features. Ben Thompson who wrote that article. [TS]

  A bunch of the people that live in that yet [TS]

  but the thought that occurred to me after we finish the show because of course I want to talk even more about the topic [TS]

  that we talked about forever anyway because I like talking about games. [TS]

  Was are are video games more like apps or more like movies [TS]

  and I mean this in one specific respect that I don't think we touched on. [TS]

  Although we didn't bring this up in the show specifically the whole computer Personal Computers are like trucks [TS]

  metaphor that has been discussed that I think Steve Jobs wrote up many years ago [TS]

  and that you know people don't need a mac pro to post to Facebook and. Three Web sites and check your e-mail and stuff. [TS]

  Despite the fact that the macro does all these amazing things they're probably not going to use them like that. [TS]

  They're the amount of technology we have in the features available far exceed what any person is ever going to want to [TS]

  do with it [TS]

  and that's what I say is it like apps like where I mean if it is like a computer where we know a person computer [TS]

  technology is available now that is far beyond the needs of what regular people want to do with computers. [TS]

  And I'm comparing that to movies where movies. [TS]

  The technology available to make movies has just gotten better by leaps [TS]

  and bounds if you compare like a blockbuster movie if you look at it could take like even the crappiest blockbuster [TS]

  movie like Transformers or some crap like that. [TS]

  Back in the time back in time fifty years in show it to somebody they would not have on first viewing they would not [TS]

  have been able to compute how terrible the movie was because they would just be amazed at the visuals because they were [TS]

  like This is magic I don't understand where this came from this must be like an alien artifact because they wouldn't [TS]

  understand how we close this is on a screen and I think in movies anyway. [TS]

  The mass market appetite for increasingly amazing things is not satisfied it's not like well you know once we can do a [TS]

  reasonable practical facts like Raiders of the Lost Ark that's all we ever need. [TS]

  There's no upside to making a better people don't need the MacPro of movies they get by perfectly fine with the IMAX so [TS]

  we'll just leave you know stick with the feature set that develop on Raiders the Lost Ark. No need for Jurassic Park. [TS]

  No need for you know it masses in C.G.I. We have today no need for like all the C.G.I. [TS]

  That's used in television shows to do backdrops and stuff. Sets are fine. [TS]

  We've pretty much got the set I don't think that's the case [TS]

  and it's not like the only people who care about just more features more technology more amazing stuff are the people [TS]

  who are super into movies and the casual moviegoers alike. I don't need to practical effects are fine with me. [TS]

  I think the appetite is essentially unlimited for amazing visuals and movies you know. [TS]

  Things on the stupidity of scripts and all the other stuff that have always been the same. [TS]

  It's not as if movies got good enough and people like now you don't need to improve them anymore [TS]

  and they keep trying to prove they don't mean everything they do to improve them is better three D. [TS]

  Is an attempt to improve it and they may not be better maybe you don't like that higher frame rate same deal. [TS]

  High Definition Television I think that's an improvement. [TS]

  People do say yes we like that better than the standard that's good enough. [TS]

  I'm not I'm not a power user of television I don't need high definition television standards now so you see I have this [TS]

  you know I go to that old saying we want a new thing and the question about video games one of them or like them [TS]

  or like the P.C. Where increasing power is like nah I don't really need that. [TS]

  Or is it more like movies where there is a seemingly infinite appetite of the mass market for making them better in [TS]

  ways that involve technology and money and I think for video games so far I don't this will always be true [TS]

  but for video games so far that seem a lot more like movies to me and that any time I could will think what about [TS]

  when a pocket of Pavel's Playstation for them are all set right. [TS]

  No because people will still want the power that the Playstation five or six offers. [TS]

  Like why will they want that well because they always want that because their appetite for better games [TS]

  and better graphics and things you know more power can do is unlimited [TS]

  and it's not like a computer where it's like you don't need all that technology in that macro you just want to check [TS]

  your email. Games are different. [TS]

  If you could have a vast fully realize realistic looking city with amazing draw distance is an amazing physics [TS]

  and I think people want that they don't know [TS]

  or care how it works they're playing the game it's much different than using the the computer to do something so that [TS]

  is a factor they didn't articulate the last time we discussed this [TS]

  or that I think is definitely in play here with games in that I don't know I don't know if the appetite is [TS]

  inexhaustible but I know we haven't exhausted it yet [TS]

  and that's why I think a lot of people who are saying oh you think that now but what about [TS]

  when the wind park is a star of the Play Station four then it will then they'll be no more market for four hundred [TS]

  dollar gaming device. [TS]

  I think the reason we people keep buying for underdog game things is because their appetite for better visuals. [TS]

  Better gameplay and better physics and just you know better games period is insatiable. [TS]

  It is not satisfied we never get to the point where games are good enough and then it just stops and stays that way. [TS]

  There's always something more you can do you just first tutti John written stuff like that you can always do something [TS]

  more with more technology with more memory with more centers and more you know who knows what. [TS]

  So that more than anything I think is going to keep the four hundred boxes alive for much longer than I think people [TS]

  think. I see I'm not so sure. As an example. So we have a forty inch T.V. [TS]

  At home and we need it does support anybody [TS]

  but the difference to me between seven thousand nine hundred eighty is I think I can tell I can tell the difference [TS]

  between four eighty whatever standard def is and seven twenty or four eighteen twenty [TS]

  but I can't tell the difference tween some twenty nine hundred eighty [TS]

  and I know what's going to be different because it's not a film it's it's something that's been created [TS]

  and so I do think you're right that it will always we always seek for more clarity better better better more polygons [TS]

  etc but I don't I don't know of anyone that buy games that that needs that latest [TS]

  and greatest system specifically for the best graphics except people who generally like self describe as gamers. [TS]

  So for me I don't really care about games very much and if a new system comes out better graphics cool [TS]

  but it's not it's not just better graphics that's the whole problem of first of all I would say that yeah maybe only a [TS]

  self described Amer's care about this and parts on it but there's enough of them to stay in the market. [TS]

  Right we already established like this generation grew but there's enough of them to sustain the market right. [TS]

  But for for everything else as the technology increases new types of games become possible kind of like you couldn't do [TS]

  live action Lord Of The Rings without computer effects. [TS]

  You just couldn't film that like you could do with with puppets maybe or people in costumes [TS]

  but it would just not have the kind of appeal and you don't need to know [TS]

  or care anything about the technology involved in making that to appreciate Lord Of The Rings. [TS]

  Right and so it's not going to happen like that. High def vs. [TS]

  It's what's on the screen you can do different kinds of things if you were to take any current game developer [TS]

  and say What if I gave you one hundred thousand times the memory the band with the whatever. [TS]

  What could you do they wouldn't just make their existing games with more polygons [TS]

  and highrise textures like how it was that I can make a different kind of game like I can make a hiking simulator that [TS]

  people will love like I mean sort of when you get to the holodeck. [TS]

  Different categories of games especially with physical materials because a lot of things you do in games like [TS]

  everything feels like a set where it's just sort of a rigid polygon or with some sort of predefined destructive things. [TS]

  Once technology gets to the point where you can do like real arbitrary destructibility hold to people who aren't so [TS]

  interested in games before will suddenly be interested if they can realistically take a baseball bat through like a [TS]

  showroom of super cars [TS]

  and it doesn't just feel like you're triggering a bunch of destruction animations to rethink cities. [TS]

  Now just different categories of games you can have in the hiking simulator thing is a joke I had from [TS]

  when I was a kid I bet there probably is a hiking simulator now like we've gotten to the point where there are with the [TS]

  visuals in games [TS]

  or enough that people are only interested in visuals would never been interested in sixteen games in any As games [TS]

  and pondering but suddenly [TS]

  when games start to look such pass some threshold the realism whole new categories of people become interested even if [TS]

  it's only like the you know the deer hunter simulator type things those people were not interested in playing to Mary [TS]

  about it [TS]

  but once you can simulate deer hunting in a way that they find appealing suddenly you open up an entire new market so I [TS]

  think the insatiable appetite for better technology for games isn't because people know or care understand [TS]

  and acknowledge it's the same as the insatiable appetite for increasingly ridiculous visuals just again Transformers [TS]

  despite the fact for the rest the movies terrible people go see these movies because the visuals are amazing [TS]

  and you throw out they're amazing now [TS]

  but they can't get any more amazing surely ten years from now that it will be exactly the same [TS]

  and no person will ever go into a movie and be wowed. [TS]

  I don't think that's the case I think people will always want to see something amazing out of people I think people [TS]

  always want to. [TS]

  Something amazing I think increases then technology will only open the market because you'll be able to do different [TS]

  things not just the same things we're doing now but fancier. [TS]

  Yeah I think the big risk though is you know typical disruption where the big risk is not people stop caring about [TS]

  things being more and more advanced. [TS]

  As we get new technology capabilities the bigger risk is that other factors come into play that you know the kind of [TS]

  thing where somebody or somebody gets a think like OK well I could buy this new game system for four hundred dollars [TS]

  but instead I can have this other thing where you know maybe it's an i Phone with an i Pad maybe to Nintendo you know [TS]

  D.S. Seven Whatever the case may be. [TS]

  You have these other devices that come in where somebody can say I don't care about the graphics because X. [TS]

  or I don't care about the technological inferiority because X. Where X. [TS]

  Can be some kind of really compelling reason whether it's an extremely different price point you know a completely [TS]

  different portability class or you know it's always with you [TS]

  or it's built into something else you already have it so it's kind of free things like that. [TS]

  That's what caused the big problems and so it's not the market for super powerful game boxes is going to disappear. [TS]

  But I certainly think there's a lot to suggest it's going to be marginalized [TS]

  and continue to be marginalized over time [TS]

  and you know you can look at movies are actually a pretty good example of this where box office sales are actually kind [TS]

  of crappy relative to what people expected for this time period because there's a lot more to do besides go see a movie [TS]

  these days. And so it's not that people stop caring about movies getting better and better. [TS]

  It's that now they have a lot of other stuff they can do it during times with which you know in the ninety's they're [TS]

  not going to see a movie and so I think that's the big risk here is kind of a splitting of attention [TS]

  and increase in disruptive factors that are different from the things these boxes do best not the people stop caring [TS]

  about what they do best. No you just don't you just put placeholders in for the things that are going to cause it. [TS]

  I don't think you can name it because all the things you named already exist [TS]

  and still haven't killed off the mark I mean spreading attention is one thing no one can help that suddenly just too [TS]

  many other things going on [TS]

  and you know it's if people just get spread too thin like that could happen right that could have anything out of T.V. [TS]

  Movies like that [TS]

  but the one thing video games has going for it is as a concept essentially if not into the specifics of like a box that [TS]

  you buy that connects your T.V. but Conceptually games are camped out in the end zone waving like the wrong analogies. [TS]

  A sport not a good sports analogy but games are basically at the end of the line tapping the foot [TS]

  and patiently saying you guys can do all whatever you want T.V. [TS]

  Movies live theater music although the stuff but it will be here in the end [TS]

  when you're all gone because our logical conclusion is the holodeck which will sort of end humanity because once you [TS]

  can realistically simulate anything [TS]

  and have you not distinguish it from real life will all just be dead in our little virtual sensor tubes within ten [TS]

  years right. [TS]

  That's that's the end game the end game is you know on that [TS]

  but it's the illusion of omnipotence know everything do everything indistinguishable from reality. [TS]

  That's going to come out of gaming is not to come out of television is not going to come out of live theater is not [TS]

  going to come out of music. [TS]

  Gaming is trying to get there and so it's likely that there are lifetimes here [TS]

  but way out thousands of years in the future. [TS]

  Games are the only form of anything and eventually destroy the entire human race. [TS]

  So I don't think gaming has that one good thing going for in that it's not going to go away [TS]

  and if we do get spread too thin because of other factors it'll come back because it's it's the end zone is the wrong [TS]

  thing it's the end of the line waiting for all of us. [TS]

  Well our first out of our first punch of this week is a new sponsor and a close friend of the show. [TS]

  If you ever listen to bio Nick you know the other half of it. [TS]

  The fake British guy who used to be British but now is a man. [TS]

  Matthew Percival Eduardo Yes Alexander he started a company and that company is called need that need it within [TS]

  and not the cave version of it. [TS]

  It's need lifestyle dot com Come check us out so need is a refined retailer and lifestyle magazine for men. [TS]

  So each month they get this nice curated collection of some like you know nine ten items [TS]

  and it's all from the world's top men's brands and they offer it to you at a special price in the special collection [TS]

  and they're presented in the form of this monthly editorial that's built around a theme [TS]

  and they always you know they support local photographers [TS]

  and have you know local photographers photograph all these things local models beyond clothing they also have coffee [TS]

  literature furniture. [TS]

  It's it's like a men's kind of you know cool fashion magazine it's for people who are not you know it's for people like [TS]

  me basically people who are not that good at making these decisions on our own. [TS]

  You can go to knead and you can see what is cool because I sure I certainly can tell you [TS]

  but this stuff is pretty cool I've gotten some of the stuff [TS]

  and it's really really good stuff you know the man has a really good really good eye for the stairway trousers. [TS]

  They also plan to localize to different cities around the world. [TS]

  The first of which will be London of course because he's almost British and so take a look good [TS]

  or need lifestyle dot com They just released Volume seven today which is built around the theme this month is [TS]

  summertime commutes vents and weekends with friends. [TS]

  So they're into a special deal for our listeners because Matt likes us [TS]

  and he's a cool guy even though he's half British. [TS]

  Anyone who places or with need [TS]

  and was sent from us send them an e-mail at hello at need lifestyle dot com with the subject line. [TS]

  World's Greatest pot cast if you do this if you e-mail Hello. Need less style with a sort of one world. [TS]

  If you place an order with them they will throw in a bunch of free extras of those orders things like you know magazine [TS]

  field knows no books socks scarves you know the kind of extras that a cool hip men's magazine has line around. [TS]

  They will also if you do this you will also then get twenty five percent off your next order. [TS]

  This is pretty cool I know this is kind of like you know haphazard last minute because neither of us knew how to write [TS]

  an ad for this it was very it was kind of a last minute book in a kind of save our butts here so need is great. [TS]

  Matt is great it's really a friend has a company Re my fantastic people thought I can really say take a look. [TS]

  Need lifestyle dot com for all of your cool stuff needs need less Style dot com Thanks a lot the need once again went [TS]

  to once again this is the first I'm a sponsor Thanks what's the need for sponsoring our show. [TS]

  I just love that they're having now be so shaded with the World Trade greatest pod cast in my defense. [TS]

  Matt wrote that line I didn't we would have but we did. [TS]

  Yes So it is not to blame if you do not think that we are the world's greatest pocket. [TS]

  Either way if you order from this company just so you can then email him get this cold it can get the free socks [TS]

  and scarf and stuff and then tell him why brother was going to talk us talk about a few more things on the D.C. [TS]

  Hit list [TS]

  or do you want to jump straight to the fire phone with the Fire Phone happened today so that's the best thing we do is [TS]

  when it when an event happens the Daily Record and we know nothing about it there was talk about it. [TS]

  Why not before anyone has reviews or even has a thing on their hands. [TS]

  I read Twitter when the press conference was going on to that count. [TS]

  That's not all I did and I reacted to things I read on Twitter. [TS]

  So so what this thing is it's basically what you'd expect [TS]

  when I was on making the phone based on what they've done with the Kindle Fire tablet line it's a phone that runs [TS]

  Android. It has pretty decent specs to gigs around some kind of C.P.U. [TS]

  I'm not familiar with I don't know that so I'm sure Indra people know it. [TS]

  Most of the innovation and it comes from software tweaks I think but I think what's most interesting you know it. [TS]

  If you would have asked people including us a few months ago like you know hey am isn't going to make a phone. [TS]

  What do you think we're going to do. [TS]

  I think almost all of us would have guessed that they were going to do something disruptive or creative [TS]

  or different around pricing because everyone's thinking oh you know Amazon's all into getting things really cheap [TS]

  and maybe maybe they could like revolutionize the phone business by giving you a phone for free [TS]

  or include you know for free supported by ads or include with Amazon Prime or [TS]

  or something like that somehow subsidize the phone to make it very very cheap or free. [TS]

  And what they what they gave us instead was a phone that's priced almost exactly like the i Phone [TS]

  and other smart other high end smartphones because Interesting so you know it's two hundred bucks on contract six fifty [TS]

  without There's a few things that make it a little better value there's like the thirty two gigs of storage is the base [TS]

  storage sort of sixteen you get a year of Amazon Prime if you buy the phone [TS]

  and if you already have it you get your membership extended for a year for free. [TS]

  So there's a couple things that value there [TS]

  but for the most part it's still a six hundred dollars on subsidized phone [TS]

  or a two hundred dollar onto your contract phone. Iran's only on a T.N.T. So far only in the U.S. [TS]

  So it's honestly it's kind of boring. [TS]

  I mean there's a couple things to talk about with what they've done with some of the software and hardware [TS]

  but I don't think we're even going to be talking about this in like two weeks. Yeah probably not. [TS]

  Some of the things that were very interesting. [TS]

  The most interesting thing to me which is gotten less interesting as more information came out. [TS]

  What is one of the slides they showed during their keynote [TS]

  or announcement whatever you call it was unlimited photo uploads to Amazon Cloud Drive [TS]

  and so there wasn't a lot of information that I could glean on it [TS]

  but John Gruber has said that there's only only unlimited photo storage for photos taken with the phone itself. [TS]

  So notably that that completely eliminates videos which are the things that take up the most space and. [TS]

  Additionally anything else is apparently subject to a five cap [TS]

  and I'm not sure the mechanism by which they're deterring is another just you know reaching into X. [TS]

  If data or what have you but. [TS]

  But yeah that that's a somewhat no worthy difference although to be fair the two cameras that we have in the House are [TS]

  two i Phone five S. Is. [TS]

  So in a parallel universe when or where Aaron and I both have Amazon one of what we call ins a fire fire found it [TS]

  when we both have fire phones that could be fine for us because that is all our photos because that's the only cameras [TS]

  we use but I know amongst this crowd we're probably quite the anomaly. [TS]

  Well you know so if you look at look at [TS]

  when Amazon overcharge the Kindle Fire the the first their first Android tablet one of its biggest selling points by [TS]

  far was it was really cheap compared to other under tablet [TS]

  and it was it was like the best two hundred Eleonora tablet you could get for a little while [TS]

  and it was just pretty terrible cause it was a it was pretty bad [TS]

  and the new the newer fires from want to hear are better I haven't actually used them [TS]

  but the newer ones are supposedly better but anyway the big reason people bought it was because it was so damn cheap. [TS]

  And the fire phone doesn't have that So my question is one of the major things this offers above [TS]

  and beyond something like a high end Samsung [TS]

  or H T C phone like if you're obviously it's the same price that everything has an i Phone like you know you get a [TS]

  little bit less of the i Phone for the same price but most people are not going to care. It's close enough. [TS]

  So you're going to two hundred bucks. [TS]

  Either way two hundred bucks on contract for this phone so it's not cheaper than an i Phone It's probably not going to [TS]

  have much if any presence in phone retail stores which is going to really hurt sales and you know why. [TS]

  It's going to be limited in certain ways like all the Google services it doesn't get it is not as far as I know correct [TS]

  me if I'm wrong anybody but all of Amazon's. [TS]

  So far like it doesn't get the Google seal of approval doesn't have to do a play store as far as I know it doesn't have [TS]

  Google Maps Google Now all that cool integration you get on officially you know blessed Android phones. [TS]

  So there's there's a lot of downside to this the upsides are you know it has some Amazon integration with some of their [TS]

  stuff it has some some store integration where you can like pointed at some things [TS]

  and scan stuff to talk about than a minute [TS]

  but I'm kind of wondering why why people are really going to buy this in any significant numbers. [TS]

  Because I don't I don't see the appeal if it was really cheap. [TS]

  Maybe if it had the full Android experience plus Amazon stuff maybe but I don't see I see and [TS]

  when people want to get an officially license Google blessed Phone [TS]

  and i see i Phone are sticking with their i Phone So I'm I'm kind of missing the point of this [TS]

  and I was on kind of like the new Microsoft but only with hardware. [TS]

  You just have to assume now whenever Amazon enters a market with a hardware product just wait until their third try. [TS]

  Right yeah I mean he mentioned that the they can Delphi or tablets [TS]

  or whatever just forget about the first one second one you know like it's going to take them a while to get it right so [TS]

  there's the learning curve there [TS]

  and I just had a thought while you were describing the phone is that phones are kind of like P.C.'s now used to be [TS]

  and that it's no longer a novelty that any company with a reasonable pockets can make one like back in the day if you [TS]

  you know if you're a company technology Haven't you had a lot of money you can make a P.C. Like you buy the C.P.U. [TS]

  As your men tell you buy a motherboard chipset possibly from Intel puzzler [TS]

  and someone else you buy a hard drive from someone you make a plastic case you put a power supply [TS]

  and put a screen on it you know you make a P.C. A lot of people did it was tons of P.C. [TS]

  Companies back before you know consolidation all fell apart. [TS]

  These days it doesn't seem like a big deal for anybody to basically you know build your own i Phone like smartphone [TS]

  Amazon went to all the vendors and people are making all these parts [TS]

  and the phone they made looks I mean if this in phones. [TS]

  I had come up for the i Phone we fall over selves to say how amazing is [TS]

  but now it's you know many seven years later it's not so mazing now it is just a fairly straightforward thing to say. [TS]

  Yeah we can make a phone that looks like a smart phone that has a good C.P.U. [TS]

  That has memory has a life so much as a result battery life as a couple other little features. [TS]

  That's no longer a big deal [TS]

  and obviously it's not quite as easy to make something as good as the i Phone on your first try so we're going to give [TS]

  Amazon three tries to do this or whatever [TS]

  but I guess it's just it's interesting that phones used to be this amazing thing in only amazing Apple can make a smart [TS]

  phone like this and now they're basically like P.C.'s If you want to make one you can make one. [TS]

  And so Amazon is making one I don't know if this is a good move or not [TS]

  but Mark also mentioned disruption of the beginning Lego hope they would do something with pricing to try to disrupt [TS]

  the phone market. [TS]

  I think Amazon it's a problem of the word disruption like [TS]

  when they did that with the tablets they sold the most out of at cost [TS]

  or possibly at a loss certainly not making big profits [TS]

  and undercut everybody like Amazon would give you a nicer screen and more storage for less money than Apple it [TS]

  but I don't think you can. [TS]

  It's kind of weird to call something disruption before it has disrupted anything you could say in attempted disruption [TS]

  but ever wonder says Oh Amazon disrupt the tablet space by selling their product at [TS]

  or below cost as far as we all know because Amazon doesn't tell you sales figures [TS]

  but as far as we all know from sort of just like walking around [TS]

  and how much Amazon is touting things they haven't disrupted the tablet space that much right I mean it's not like [TS]

  because they priced in so low all the incumbents who make a profit on their tablets were put on their heels [TS]

  and said what we can handle this soon were our market share is shrinking Amazon is stealing all our customers. [TS]

  My impression is that that has not happened so their attempt the disruption with that pricing strategy with tablets [TS]

  didn't work I guess they could have done more and say the real problem. [TS]

  If we didn't we weren't radical enough with the price we'll pay you to take and take one of these phones right. [TS]

  But instead there were no directions that are right. Obviously that strategy did not buy our way into the tablet space. [TS]

  Let's try the more conventional strategy of making money by selling things at a profit with subsidies [TS]

  and so that's what it seems like we're doing with the phone I don't think there's any particular reason to favour the [TS]

  stone over the best Android phone you can find or an i Phone and there's many reasons not to. [TS]

  But to Amazon's credit they did of these try to differentiate I mean again it was a version one product assume this is [TS]

  going to be a stinker just like the version on Kindle Fire was [TS]

  but it has interesting things in it you know the multi camera thing in that silly depth perception the parallax [TS]

  and you know the thing for scanning things to buy them on Amazon the Amazon Prime in America listed all the stuff [TS]

  that's way more differentiation than the average crappy Samsung phone has and Samsung felt like crazy. [TS]

  So it could be again like the P.C. [TS]

  Space that all you really need is to pass a minimum threshold of like if we get a C.P.U. [TS]

  We got a hard drive we got memory we had a case of the kind I said we have a couple of differentiators or reputation [TS]

  or a connection with a brand that you like or franchise that you like or whatever and again in movie parlance [TS]

  and that's enough to become a player in the space. [TS]

  I think that's sort of an Amazon game plan is not to rock the market [TS]

  but just to try to be part of the conversation the same way all those P.C. Makers were like hey we're part of the P.C. [TS]

  Market we sell P.C.'s will pick our stripes on them because I was gay way for two thousand and nine [TS]

  and our names will never actually reach that year I got my first computer and it came in the catalogs [TS]

  and it was awesome. Maybe maybe someday we'll have retail stores anyway. That's how I see Amazon's entry here. [TS]

  And so I'm I'm not for or against it. [TS]

  I like more competition in the phone market I don't know what the long term odds are better wake me up [TS]

  when they're on their third phone. I'm guessing a big part of it might be as as weird as the sound I mean. [TS]

  Probably didn't spend much money on us like this [TS]

  and I'm sure they continent they contracted out the even hardware design to somebody else who definitely counted had [TS]

  the manufacturing I think D.C. Made it for them right. Yes So you know they didn't. I didn't invest very heavily in it. [TS]

  I'm guessing the main purpose of this is just like all the other hardware it's just to use Amazon sales [TS]

  and one of the things that this will do if they can get a big presence in the phone [TS]

  and tablet market you know they're already probably there with tablets maybe [TS]

  but if they can if they can if they can get enough of a market presence everybody who develops an Android app will be [TS]

  forced to put their app and Amazon's Android app store. [TS]

  And as far as I know this only works at the answer unless you go the no download if you Kaizen [TS]

  and able to create the setting [TS]

  but I think for the most part you have to have things in an answer because there's no the Google Play Store on this [TS]

  please correct me if I'm wrong chat but. [TS]

  So you know if they get if they get even you know ten percent of the market then it would be pretty unwise for Endor [TS]

  developers to to not develop which not to put their stuff on Amazon asked or [TS]

  and then I'm going to take a nice cut of you know any kind of money flowing through Android apps not theirs [TS]

  historically to hold up but you know there are people that that adds up now [TS]

  and you know there's also the other factors there's four for all of the reasons that Google wanted to make Android [TS]

  and kind of had to make Android the main reasons why were that Google was threatened by by the possibility of somebody [TS]

  like Apple [TS]

  or Microsoft dominating the phone space in a way then than they could like lock out Google services from working on [TS]

  their phones. [TS]

  So Google kind of defensively had to make Android to to give themselves a place for their services to live [TS]

  and thrive so they couldn't ever be locked out of a dominant phone platform [TS]

  or so they tell themselves anyway yesterday so I think Amazon has a similar goal here in that Amazon wants to. [TS]

  Make sure that none of their digital services get locked out of their physical services are probably fine everyone's [TS]

  going to keep buying you know their shampoo from Amazon it's no big deal I don't think Apple cares to interfere with [TS]

  that but it certainly is a risk that that you know maybe Amazon's bookstore or a video store or music store. [TS]

  You know those kind of services could easily get locked out of future eyeless and Google blessed Android [TS]

  and so I think I think they kind of strategically thought this is this is a good idea and [TS]

  and I'm sure I'm sure they'll make enough on it to justify the probably minimal investment they put into it. [TS]

  Maybe but it doesn't need to set the road on fire to succeed you know. Sorry yeah. [TS]

  It you know it doesn't it doesn't need to sell extremely well. [TS]

  It would be nice if it did I'm sure they would they would appreciate having the extra margin to play with because they [TS]

  don't have a lot of margin on most of the other stuff [TS]

  but the reality is I don't think this really is that important for this to sell well [TS]

  and I don't think it will sell well there and it's the I mentioned in passing earlier [TS]

  but it's definitely worth retiring this is also US only mostly because most Renaissance services are still U.S. [TS]

  Only or at least very limited outside of the U.S. And so as long as this is U.S. [TS]

  Only it's going to extremely limited its market share especially since it is actually in price in the U.S. [TS]

  As a lot of much better phones. [TS]

  I think it is a good idea I mean don't you you said you know whether this is good I think it is a good idea it is a [TS]

  good idea for it was a good idea for Amazon to make tablets. It's a good idea for them to make a phone. [TS]

  I mean despite the fact that I guess I don't think the tablets are really tearing up the charts. [TS]

  Again we don't know for sure give them a lot of like to release numbers [TS]

  but I think it's a good idea for them to make a phone because because it is like P.C.'s [TS]

  and now I want why shouldn't they have a phone why shouldn't they have a tablet Why should it's part of their ecosystem [TS]

  they sell they sell you things you can consume on that tablet so it's good to have a tablet. [TS]

  They also sell you things that you can consume on the phone [TS]

  and you can use both of those devices to buy things from the. [TS]

  Physical store they have a cohesive story around these things [TS]

  and I think it was a good idea for them to develop it because I think this was more [TS]

  or less the right time where they can just you know put it together out of off the shelf parts and some innovation [TS]

  and I think it probably didn't vest in it because I think they you know it makes sense for them to have these pieces of [TS]

  the package [TS]

  and not rely on other people for these because it makes sense for their business not totally out there like they've [TS]

  decided to make you know self driving cars or something. [TS]

  Yeah but I still think like it was a good year for them to make this no question [TS]

  and since they were already making tablets an argument in the SO S. [TS]

  I'm sure there's a lot of shared development resources there anyway [TS]

  but I'm sure they are most definitely spent way more on software development and harbor development [TS]

  and they can probably use most of that in their tablet effort. [TS]

  The difference here is you know phones [TS]

  and tablets are very different markets as a lot of people have found that over the last few years especially most of [TS]

  the early attempts at Android tablets on this it's a very very different. [TS]

  These two are very different markets and what works in phones doesn't necessarily work in tablets and vice versa [TS]

  and was on was able to break in the tablet market by being extremely aggressive on price. [TS]

  Nobody was buying the Kindle Fires [TS]

  and still today nobody's buying the Kindle Fires because they're the best tablets because they're not they're certainly [TS]

  better than they used to be but they're still not the best habits. [TS]

  People buy them because they're cheap and they see them promoted like crazy on Amazon. [TS]

  This phone is going to be part of the creation Amazon fine [TS]

  but it's not cheap it's cheap though I mean especially for people who are using the i Phone right. [TS]

  But when people are shopping for Android phones [TS]

  and anyone is willing to pay two hundred dollars for the same for phone shops this two hundred dollar phone to get any [TS]

  competitive two hundred dollars phone assume they're not going to buy an i Phone because they're not in that market at [TS]

  all speculative and feature wise. [TS]

  This compares favorably with any with the of that with another two hundred dollars Android phone [TS]

  and I think that's the big conversation they're trying to win they're like oh we're not going to be with people who are [TS]

  shopping for an i Phone because this is the ecosystem the cache. No the apps like we're not there for get it right. [TS]

  But there's tons of crappy Android phones and I mean you look around. [TS]

  Mostly what I see is people with i Phones or people with a huge menagerie of crazy are going to Android phones. [TS]

  That's that's the jungle where the phone is stalking [TS]

  and it's got a nice screen it's got a lot of RAM It's got a fast C.P.U. [TS]

  Got crazy has cameras that are going to impress people in a demo somewhere [TS]

  when they see someone who has one the camera is pretty good right like it's got all sorts of stuff [TS]

  and the crazy things [TS]

  or the tilt scrolling in the parallax reminds you of the stupid crazy features like in the Galaxy S five that no one's [TS]

  ever going to use that track your eyes when you close your eyes the video stops [TS]

  and you know how to touch the screen like that. People go for that crap. [TS]

  And so this it in that crap show [TS]

  and even though it's not super cheap it I think it compares like it compares favored to the i Phone Let's put that way [TS]

  in terms of pricing and specs and I think they're going after the people who care about gee whiz features [TS]

  and also the people who care about stupid number specs not against the i Phone or no one cares about the specs [TS]

  when they buy an i Phone They're buying an i Phone have an i Phone and to buy into that whole system. [TS]

  You know what if you are living not near family members and you really want to smartphone [TS]

  and your family members that live nearby that are really good with computers. [TS]

  So your family members that are really good with computers don't live nearby [TS]

  and you feel kind of all in your own little island and you want something that you know you can get help with it [TS]

  and maybe you don't live near an apple an apple store. [TS]

  This made a thing I'm fairly surprised that the Mayday in the tablets hasn't made more waves [TS]

  and I could very much see like say my grandmother for example who is fairly computer savvy especially for a woman that [TS]

  is not terribly young but she lives near no one in terms of her family members that are good with computers [TS]

  and so I can absolutely see her wanting this if nothing else for the maybe feature so she knows within fifteen seconds [TS]

  she can have. Oh and I can see that as being very powerful. [TS]

  That's a clever use of Amazon strength because their strength is like physical logistics. [TS]

  Having a human being on the other end of a phone is a physical matter it's not a matter of software or servers [TS]

  or whatever. [TS]

  An Amazon does it all the time and they're all about people and physical things [TS]

  and managing things that are ridiculous scales. [TS]

  So they were wise to bring to bear the skills they have from their retail business on the phone the same way Google is [TS]

  wise to bring to bear all of its great assets like you know it's really you know good maps and [TS]

  and driving directions and their server capacity [TS]

  and all their web apps like everyone is bringing their best stuff to the table you know I think this does make sense [TS]

  and I don't think this will necessarily like if you were to buy this phone. [TS]

  I mean maybe it has nothing to compare it to wouldn't matter [TS]

  but I don't think experience to be that great this is version one and Amazon in my mind I try to tweak this [TS]

  but I can figure out a way to tweet out a tweet in a way that would express myself so I'll try just by rambling here. [TS]

  Unfortunately my perception of Amazon now whenever I think of them [TS]

  and I think of Jeff Bezos surveys us like Glenn you got to tell me how to pronounce a name I don't know up on the stage [TS]

  is Amazon has a really good demos and everything they show is much crappier in real life. [TS]

  I got another tragedy not getting that impression but like after several of these demos feels like [TS]

  and sometimes they're OK In real life like you know the Kindle Paperwhite really was more [TS]

  or less like what they showed but like all of their Fire tablets and now the phone [TS]

  and a lot of the Kindles they've demo they do really good keynotes [TS]

  and you look at them like wow I can't believe Amazon pulled this off they've got the features they've got the specs [TS]

  they've got the design everything is amazing when you see the actual product [TS]

  and it's like well you know if you like we could pull the wool over your eyes [TS]

  and that's the reputation they're getting in my mind so much so that I'm kind of tuning out the what are very good [TS]

  presentations and fairly polished and like you know not thing to say in the Steve Jobs file [TS]

  but obviously you know in the post Steve Jobs presentation world adding their own twist. [TS]

  But now I'm just starting to write though that that's a tech person type thing but anyway right. [TS]

  Well you know going to know what their presentations are like [TS]

  but I feel like real people once they get them will be like the same way they [TS]

  when they get the Alex a Galaxy S five like you play with a little with the features that you're never going to use [TS]

  again in the end you have kind of a crappy ugly phone. The river after two years. [TS]

  See but what makes you think that anyone would find it to be crappy [TS]

  and ugly because on the surface especially if you don't have something as well designed as perhaps modern Android [TS]

  or certainly an i Phone if you like you said if you don't have anything to compare to then how would you conclude that [TS]

  it's not crappy. The Samsung say it's crap. [TS]

  I think I think the Amazon's industrial design is better as ridiculous as the original Kindle Fire was in terms of size [TS]

  and weight and everything. [TS]

  Industrial Design is not bad like it was you know pleasingly shape that made it to the power buttons are in the wrong [TS]

  place. We all know that but like that they have rubber parts in the right spot. [TS]

  I am of the UN is the head we had really great screens. [TS]

  The problems of course are in software and ecosystem in kind of using the devices not as wonderful [TS]

  and magical as you would expect that they miss on a lot of the details like well you can have an amazing screen [TS]

  and a quad core G.P.U. and Twice the RAM of any i OS Apple device please Apple fix this place. [TS]

  But it doesn't matter if [TS]

  when you click the scroll it's jumping like how did you jump you got twice as many cores we had twice as much ram. [TS]

  It's like it takes a lot of effort and coordination between hardware and software to make all that come together. [TS]

  You know how can Apple get away with having half as many choruses the top and Android phones [TS]

  and yet it still feels faster and does things quicker. [TS]

  That's where those guys can compete and that's what I mean by like that. [TS]

  I think compared to fine but once I go into an Apple store and start looking around on an i Pad or. [TS]

  And i Phone I think even pressing a bit like oh my my thing doesn't feel like this. [TS]

  Well I'm going back a sec to Mayday. [TS]

  I do think that that's probably Amazon's best feature if it even works half as well as the demos. [TS]

  That's an amazing feature and that will win over a lot of people. [TS]

  Especially people like us who are possibly in the position of buying the phone for someone else that we don't want to [TS]

  have to tech support. [TS]

  You know that's that I can see I can see the benefit of [TS]

  but there's also the other side of that which is made they can only help you with problems that involve the phone being [TS]

  able to boot and show the screen contents [TS]

  and going to say I like the comparison as I like to tell people the Apple stuff because then if they have any problem I [TS]

  say just go to the Apple store. [TS]

  Exactly and that's a thing like you know maybe well maybe as great as long as the phone can boot the screen works [TS]

  and it can connect to a data network or wife I. [TS]

  All of those things has feature and that will solve a lot of problems no question. [TS]

  But there's also a whole class of other problems that people routinely hit with their phones that may they won't be [TS]

  able to solve or want what they want they will access it and [TS]

  and there is immense value in Apple having this giant network of retail stores [TS]

  and in being able to walk into like an A.T.M. [TS]

  To the store with your Samsung phone that you bought there [TS]

  and you know get some help there like there's there's a massive massive value in in being able to go to a physical [TS]

  place and get service and you know in the case of you know the phone network stores aren't that great about this [TS]

  but in the case of an Apple store you could walk out of there with a replacement like you could go to your phone could [TS]

  break in the morning. [TS]

  You could go to the Apple Store at lunch [TS]

  and if there's not too big of a line you can walk out of there with a replacement in a half hour. [TS]

  And that's something that Amazon can can approach that they can you know they can have you be able to call them up [TS]

  and then they can overnight you a new phone maybe you know maybe we'll see about that [TS]

  but that's still a very that's a very different degree to very different kind of experience [TS]

  or to talk on the phone to somebody who need to talk them through the problem [TS]

  and then Amazon has to decide whether to send you a phone and send you a phone that arrives the next day [TS]

  or by drone later that day who knows. [TS]

  But it's still it's a different it's a different problem [TS]

  and there's just such immense value in having those retail stores there now. [TS]

  Now granted there's also a whole class of problems where like you might just live with it like if you're somebody who [TS]

  doesn't know the technology very well and you're like oh well for whatever reason you know my mail is all blue [TS]

  and I don't know why [TS]

  but it's not really worth going all the way to the Apple Store for that well maybe you know on it's on the kindle thing [TS]

  maybe you would you know hit the media butt [TS]

  and say hey why is this all blue can you help me change this back you know so there's you would be able to get better [TS]

  help with a lot of small problems like that using Mayday But you know phones [TS]

  and those are even more so than tablets phones get carried around people so phones have a lot of hazards happen to them [TS]

  in a lot of things that are weird that break and [TS]

  and so I see that being a problem for Amazon people what you're not considering is that both of you are taking a [TS]

  completely myopic North-Eastern view of the world because the nearest Apple Store to like half of Virginia is either in [TS]

  another state or easily two hours away. I mean I'm lucky in that there happens to be an Apple store in Richmond. [TS]

  But outside of Richmond like let's take Charlottesville for example which is an hour west of where I am. [TS]

  You can either come here to Richmond or go two hours north to D.C. [TS]

  and Charlottesville Zay not small city I mean it's Virginia classifies it as a city. [TS]

  Well OK you can be all the smog in Miami because you live in the northeast. [TS]

  The look of the population of Charlottesville [TS]

  and save it for the larger than the population of where I went to high school and perhaps it's not [TS]

  but I think you're way way overselling the utility of Apple stores because if you're lucky enough to live near one. [TS]

  Yes you're absolutely right. But most of the country doesn't and beyond that most of the world doesn't. [TS]

  So that's wonderful that you guys have forty four Apple stores within a ten minute drive. [TS]

  But I've got only one option [TS]

  and if I lived an hour away it would be an hour drive to get to the nearest Apple store an hour drive maybe in my [TS]

  busted assed car that can barely get up the highway. I mean. [TS]

  I'm being a little dramatic but my point is Apple's retail footprint is really consequential. [TS]

  Now this is where you would say well there's one thousand nine hundred foot print [TS]

  and yes you're right about that eight hundred He's a lot more stores we're not going to get the same level of service [TS]

  and repair it in one thousand nine hundred or that you would have an Apple store. [TS]

  So I think you're grossly overselling like yourself are body bags I said I was going to say Apple Store is the best [TS]

  case scenario but leave Apple Store aside normal people get their phones the quote unquote phone stores [TS]

  and they're everywhere in every strip mall probably even in Charlottesville. [TS]

  And those are not a great place to bring your phone back to [TS]

  but it's still a place to bring a phone back to his once Grandma gets that phone from Amazon. [TS]

  She doesn't know where to take that when it doesn't work [TS]

  and then every volves especially tech support calling someone on the phone [TS]

  and try them in Amazon is generally good at that maybe that's also going down on strengths [TS]

  but Amazon for all their physical It just takes is not in the retail if the physical brick [TS]

  and mortar retail store business for what I think are obvious reasons of sort of the opposite of what Amazon is so [TS]

  they're going to sell you physical product it's all about them trying to make the experience really good like I can I [TS]

  can do text chat I can do email [TS]

  or I can call someone on a phone to arrange for me to return this thing to them in a package. [TS]

  Either I shipped myself or they sent me a box and they ship it back and all that other stuff [TS]

  and that has to compete with going to the phone store at the strip mall that's five minutes away going to the Apple [TS]

  Store the nearby me if I live near a big city if you live don't you live near anything then maybe Amazon is the way to [TS]

  go but I don't know. [TS]

  It's the maybe Peter I think is is a good selling point and Amazon was smart to put it in there [TS]

  but it's competing against those those other possibilities for getting help [TS]

  and as someone said in the chat room mom can get tech support in fifteen seconds too [TS]

  but it's a Face Time call to me that if you are calling you on the phone [TS]

  and that's that's what we're waiting as the technically savvy people with relatives who are waiting like what do I tell [TS]

  my relative or my non tech savvy friend. [TS]

  Get so that they don't call me in the middle that I because they're having a problem or when they do call me. [TS]

  I don't have to debug it I can tell them. Just take your phone back to the store. [TS]

  Just go to the Apple store or just go to the web page and Amazon and decide whether you want to call them e-mail them [TS]

  or text them [TS]

  and they'll arrange for you to return the thing that's really all we want to not be bothered with certain people. [TS]

  We want we want them to get a solution and we're not going to try to debunk it remotely. [TS]

  Maybe we can go over their house and try to figure it out over and over [TS]

  but once that's happened it's all that I think May Day in the cases where everything is working. [TS]

  It's great just to have another human there to talk to who is who is getting paid to help you with your thing [TS]

  and that will help you not send a Face Time request to your child. [TS]

  It's also very smart of Amazon to do this because the kind of thing that their competitors really can't. [TS]

  Microsoft probably could [TS]

  but Apple really can't because it would just be way too big of an operation because they way too many people have i [TS]

  Phones It would be a nightmare to support and scale that and at the at the i Phone sales volume [TS]

  and Google kind of can't because well first of all they they hate people and don't understand them [TS]

  and second of all like how would Google like how do you even pay for that. [TS]

  The way androids whole model is set up like they have a hard time supporting that really [TS]

  and you know even if they were in the business of applying lots of human powered things which they're definitely not [TS]

  Microsoft could maybe do it for the same reason Amazon can do it which is they don't sell them any phones like Amazon [TS]

  actually lucky [TS]

  and a lot of these things that like for example one of the reasons why they were able to do you like certain screens [TS]

  and some of the Kindle Fire H.D.X. [TS]

  and Stuff like that is because they're at small scale they can use components that don't have very good yields that [TS]

  aren't being produced in very high volume because they can't be things that like for Apple put something in an i Phone [TS]

  They're going to need one hundred million of them in a month like they can't you know. [TS]

  They can't do that and so this is this is a very smart move from Amazon of doing doing something that they can do [TS]

  and that and that kind of only they can do. [TS]

  So anyway let's move on to our second sponsor before we forget too it's been almost an hour our second sponsor is a [TS]

  return sponsor. [TS]

  It's our friends at hover hover is the best way to buy and manage domain names you know [TS]

  but simply a man ignore the three page three pages and you know I'm not very good with paper but Thanks Marilyn. [TS]

  Yes So however is it I mean because rather than suck basically they have all sorts of features all sorts of plans all [TS]

  sorts of products you can buy hosting you can by e-mail you can buy domain names [TS]

  and I can speak to the most with I do use their email service it's great it works for some of the mains [TS]

  and mostly I use them as a demeanor to star and that's I think their main business [TS]

  and you go there they have tons of T.L.B. Is very very very complete inventory of T.L.B. [TS]

  That they support you can get pretty much anything. [TS]

  Even the stupid new ones they support although all those that are out so far they support all those so it's a great [TS]

  start and they don't try to screw with. [TS]

  They don't have all these like big add ons and gimmicks [TS]

  and like you know boxes that say like you know uncheck this to not opt out of not being billed for the privacy blocking [TS]

  protection service and like what what is what is that do I have to check this am I going to get charged for this. [TS]

  They basically have seen defaults to well designed. They also have amazing support. [TS]

  They have a no holds no weight no transfer phone bill phone support policies so yeah you can e-mail them if you want [TS]

  you can fill it up or take it. [TS]

  They have knowledge bases online if you want but you can also just call them [TS]

  and if you call during business hours a person just picks up the phone and talks to you and they can help you. [TS]

  There's you don't have to wait on hold. [TS]

  You know what to do one of those annoying push button menus or even the more annoying talking menus. [TS]

  Boy do I hate those. You can either call them and a human being picks up and talk to you. Hover is fantastic. [TS]

  I view them myself watchable use them there's a reason why they sponsor tons a podcast of their cool First of all [TS]

  and also because they know that you guys value the stuff you know the audience values services [TS]

  and products that aren't trying to rip them off [TS]

  and they're actually brought in good service good quality so good over dot com [TS]

  and you can get ten percent off your first order by using the new coupon code this month. Let me get that for you. [TS]

  What I knew you wouldn't get it. I got nothing. You'll get it later anyway. Go to her and use coupon code. [TS]

  Let me get that for you for ten percent off and we'll see if anybody ever gets that this week. [TS]

  Please you know Casey if you do know don't e-mail me oh my god. [TS]

  Let me get that for you all one word all lowercase no spaces no punctuation. [TS]

  Thanks what a hover for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

  So I'm looking at the I'm still frustrated with you two I'm looking at the Boston metro area [TS]

  and there are by my count one two three four five six maybe seven Apple stores within what is this one twenty eight [TS]

  that runs around Boston. [TS]

  But one thing I'd like to know based on your race here so yes by by geographic area Apple Stores don't serve a lot of [TS]

  people but what percentage of the U.S. [TS]

  Population is within driving distance of an Apple store [TS]

  and then also what percentage of the population most likely to buy an i Phone is within driving distance of an Apple [TS]

  store. [TS]

  Well the second the first one I'll give you the second one I won't even let me finish my thought real quick which is to [TS]

  say that the Boston metro area has six Apple stores the entire state of Ohio has six Apple stores it also has less [TS]

  people than the Boston metro area probably does [TS]

  but if you don't live on I seventy one is this that runs from southwest Ohio to northeast Ohio then kindly piss off [TS]

  because there is no apple store near you. So anyway so the point is it's there's a lot of there's a lot of them. [TS]

  Like the entire What is Nebraska South Dakota North Dakota Montana Wyoming like none of them have an Apple store. [TS]

  They do i missed it. [TS]

  Those are all green states in any case and your point about population density is fair [TS]

  but I also wonder like what do you think Apple Store popped up in a larger city in Wyoming. [TS]

  Assuming such a thing exists which I'm sure it does but I can't think of any [TS]

  but anyway let me cap off the geography thing that I just bothered to look up. [TS]

  Well us were discussing where stores are in the United States population. [TS]

  The Charlottesville is apparently about forty four thousand people it should be some really if the population of [TS]

  Smithtown New York or I went to high school is one hundred seventeen thousand people. [TS]

  So just cut I'm surprised you have a fair point I'm surprised ruthless that's not how you know that as well if you look [TS]

  at Richmond the Richmond metro area not Richmond itself a virtue metro area I think is a couple million [TS]

  and we have a Apple store but you have an Apple store anyway. [TS]

  Thank you so Margaret said a while back about taking advantage of the fact that there aren't a lot of them like they [TS]

  can afford the fancy screen because their volumes are low and they can afford to do maybe a prison because [TS]

  and I guess a lot of these are the very least they're starting from zero so the be a growth curve isn't like Apple [TS]

  where on day one you're going to tend to send sell ten million of these things where they sell [TS]

  and then you've got a big problem with Mayday right you just can't handle like passenger without working up to it [TS]

  and this gets into the the problems with the concept of unlimited A lot of people are tweeting about [TS]

  when they're talking about the unlimited photo storage in case you already noted what Gruber tweeted about it not [TS]

  really being unlimited is like all is going on that if you take them on the on the phone if you have an existing [TS]

  library pictures then you know you have subject to five you could buy cap maybe the charge you above that [TS]

  and you get the second homes gosh and we always have where it's like I just want someone to take care of my crap and [TS]

  and then you hear about it you know like well that would take care of my crap and you know details [TS]

  and there's always weird rules. [TS]

  You've got to remember this NIE I remember that in this is free and this is for paying us for that thing [TS]

  and a lot of people aren't going to are saying this is a problem is unlimited It's like it's pointless it's never [TS]

  really give me unlimited if you ever see the word unlimited run the other direction it's just for people who who used [TS]

  too many resources and it's not like the way things should be [TS]

  and I think that's too extreme a reaction because I think the thing that we all want someone to take care of our [TS]

  pictures for us can be done and will be done eventually. [TS]

  It's not the unlimited part that's bad it's the complexities of like someone who wants to put a limit on the sly [TS]

  but doesn't want to commit commit to that right and it's not like oh you're going to get something for nothing [TS]

  and a great example is our frequent sponsor back plays where it's unlimited but they charge you a monthly. [TS]

  It's a low monthly fee and they figured out how to. [TS]

  Presumably they figured out how to run a business where we charge people low monthly fee. [TS]

  We give them unlimited really is unlimited [TS]

  and the way it works out is that most people don't have a lot of data in the average works out so that we're able to [TS]

  make money. We're also sponsored this week by Bakley how serendipitous really actually most of it is now. [TS]

  Backless is five dollars a month unlimited [TS]

  and uncomplicated online backup you can try it for free with no credit card required. [TS]

  Literally it's five bucks a month. I'm an online backup. It's very very simple they have a mac native client. [TS]

  It's actually founded by X. [TS]

  Apple engineers so they're they know the mac sensibilities their software is really nice [TS]

  and you can actually access your files from anywhere they have this cool I less app where you can you can access any [TS]

  files backed up on back plays from anywhere you are so if you're like you know on vacation somewhere you want to access [TS]

  the files on your home computer as long as you're back on tobacco is that files there [TS]

  and you can do it you can get to it right there you can also get email notifications for peace of mind to know that [TS]

  you're being backed up [TS]

  and to know if for example if something is not being backed up for a certain time they can email you [TS]

  and tell you that which is very nice to know. Bakley is by far the simplest on a backup. [TS]

  Use use install it and it does the rest. [TS]

  And really like I have a lot of data in back plays [TS]

  and I've had trouble with other services not accepting it fast enough because I have a print of three I'm here with [TS]

  finally getting fires. [TS]

  I waited my whole life to live somewhere that has files and I finally do and it's glorious [TS]

  and I some of the services I couldn't they wouldn't accept the uploads quickly enough. [TS]

  But back please I don't have that problem. [TS]

  BAKLEY except the others as quickly as I said it to and you can send it to you know be kind to your connection [TS]

  or you can set it to just decide for itself how much it should use [TS]

  and I've never had a prob that I've never had a problem and it uploads quickly and I have between me and my wife [TS]

  and my mom. We probably have a total of about four and a half terabytes worth of stuff there and it's fantastic. [TS]

  Five bucks a month per computer. Unlimited space. Simple as that. Go to back Blaze dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  and You can get a free trial no credit card required. Thanks a lot to back please. [TS]

  You really need online backup if you are not backing up online [TS]

  and you have the option to pass it in the bandwidth to do it. You really really really need to do it. [TS]

  I know some places you don't have good get upstream [TS]

  or you have will ban with caps that's fine you are you are kindly excused [TS]

  but everybody else you should really be doing this. [TS]

  There are so many backup problems that this can be a nice safety net for things you know things are going to happen to [TS]

  your house if you have you know just your computer [TS]

  and Time Machine drive put into it then like electrical problems fires floods that all sorts of crazy stuff water [TS]

  flooding from the apartment above you like all sorts of crazy this can happen that can take out all of your copy of [TS]

  your data if it's only in your house so really you are also back up and back which is in my opinion is the best one. [TS]

  Go to back please dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Thank you very much [TS]

  and I think the backplate has going for it is that they get to use the word unlimited which takes away the stress from [TS]

  from anybody really [TS]

  but from certainly from high capacity like high demand users you don't want to know is there a limit am I going to hit [TS]

  the limit to do I had to wear red. [TS]

  And even casual use issue if there is a limit they may not have any sort of conception of how much data they have likes [TS]

  of like do I have that much data. How much is a gigabyte. Will I had that much data in five years I doesn't matter. [TS]

  That totally never going to reach the cap if they don't understand that it can cause them hesitant so unlimited gets [TS]

  rid of that anxiety of like I don't have to worry about how much stuff I have [TS]

  and then the only job you have to do after that is make the financial arrangement both attractive [TS]

  and easy to understand [TS]

  and this Amazon arrangement is not easy to understand I would never have guessed that only the photos taken by phone [TS]

  count or the limit of the five gigabyte cap maybe I can buy stuff [TS]

  and going to import my existing for a collection of all [TS]

  but it's already too complicated you know back places we charge a fee per month it is a small fee. [TS]

  People are willing to pay it. [TS]

  The average data stored by our customers is enough that we make money at that price it's easy to understand. [TS]

  Five dollars a month unlimited something like that. [TS]

  For photos it doesn't have to be we'll star all your photos for free. [TS]

  Unlimited doesn't mean free and unlimited just means you know more anxiety about [TS]

  but what about these photos boy about those photos I take here what about my existing stuff [TS]

  but will you keep the rose at full resolution will you downsampled them is there a thirty day window is there like all [TS]

  that crap and anxieties to go away [TS]

  and then the company just needs to find some way to pay for that whether by charging a reasonable monthly fee [TS]

  or incorporating it into some other service or subsidize the river [TS]

  and so we were all briefly excited by the Amazon thing. [TS]

  Now we're all on excited about it it's just another solution that is too complicated and too weird [TS]

  and it's going to leave people in situations where they're not sure their stuff is safe [TS]

  and where in reality probably won't be safe. [TS]

  All right so I actually if we if we have the time Jesus will permit me I would actually like to talk now about [TS]

  continuity and I think it plays into some of the sort who were just talking about. [TS]

  So continuity is a feature during the keynote of the demo where between your sanity and i O S nine and. [TS]

  or eight yeah I was eight and now apparently possibly even the Apple T.V. [TS]

  There are features where you can for example start doing something in an app and one of these devices [TS]

  and then go to another one of your devices and pick up where you left off [TS]

  or do crazy things like take a phone call on your mac and stuff like that or tree [TS]

  and transfer to an e-mail as you're writing it between your phone or your computer. [TS]

  All these different things that involve basically passing off tasks from one computer to from one computer [TS]

  or device to another one seamlessly and one of the reasons I think this is smart you know this one of the theory [TS]

  or one of the themes where Apple tends to not do so well and this this doesn't actually apply just Apple [TS]

  but were Apple terms [TS]

  and not do so well is trying to go past what they're good at trying to do a really big new project in an area that they [TS]

  are really really not good at. [TS]

  And so one of the best examples of this obviously is maps where you know maps of the kind of area where Google is [TS]

  really good at the at the at the kind of like Big Data Integration massive scale data collection [TS]

  and resolving conflicts between different sources of data and ranking things and and finding relevance [TS]

  and Google is really really good at that kind of problem. [TS]

  And so when Google tackles that kind of problem they can do it very well and very few others can. [TS]

  Apple tried to tackle the problem with maps and i O. S. [TS]

  Six five six six and and famously did not do very well at it and it's certainly better than it was [TS]

  but it's still not to Google level of quality and honestly probably never will be. [TS]

  And so you know you can look at things that you can see are these are kind of areas where where Apple's weak [TS]

  and I mentioned right before the pre [TS]

  or before last topic how I thought it was very good of Amazon to recognize one of their strengths [TS]

  and do something in it made a do something that the other people kind of can't do in the business can't or won't do. [TS]

  And so what Apple has done with continuity I think. [TS]

  Is the same kind of strategic thing where continuity is the kind of thing that Apple actually can do very well. [TS]

  Yes it uses i Cloud but I think it mostly actually is a local networking I think it would use a Bluetooth L.-E. [TS]

  To do some of the initial handshaking and probably probably doesn't go over the network [TS]

  or over the the LAN with it has to so I think to jump in my recollection of the video I watched was it negotiates over [TS]

  Bluetooth Ellie and then it did the amount of data you can send back [TS]

  and forth is like the State of the world is almost non. [TS]

  So it it stablish is proximity using the truth Ellie [TS]

  and then you have to use some other mechanism of your choice including a stream that I believe they can open between [TS]

  devices actually that might be over Bluetooth as well [TS]

  but anyways by some other mechanism you have to establish like What the crap is you're working on [TS]

  and what you're doing [TS]

  but the proximity awareness bit is due to selling in this is freakin terrible for me because both of my Macs are late [TS]

  twenty Levon Macs and they don't have political energy and I'm very sad. [TS]

  Don't worry though they'll eventually be replaced inabilities those cool stuff [TS]

  and said no no just talk to any macro owners in the last few years who ever had to use airdrop [TS]

  and realize they can't do it because of the NIH proas sold anyway. [TS]

  So this is the kind of thing this involves you know local networking with high end ran New controlled hardware [TS]

  and passing around the Internet. Very small bits of information in very large volume. [TS]

  That's what push notifications are that's what I message is that's a kind of Apple is already doing this stuff at scale [TS]

  and doing it very well. [TS]

  Most of the time and so like this and it requires a very deep you know top to bottom integration of the hardware [TS]

  and the software and the services it requires people who buy multiple devices from the same manufacturer [TS]

  and who actually keep someone up to date. Casey did. So you'll have it'll be cool. [TS]

  And so this is the kind of thing where not only is Apple really good at this sort of thing [TS]

  but only Apple can really do that if you look at you know Google you know [TS]

  and group are a big thing about only Apple is really good [TS]

  and I was I was I was kind of hoping to be more about this when I saw the title. [TS]

  He touches on this but other people are more into it. [TS]

  You know Microsoft can't do this because they don't sell any phones really. [TS]

  And even the computer sales are not doing that great [TS]

  and they can't you know they have this massive their bevy of hardware to contend with [TS]

  and you know what percentage of Windows computers have Bluetooth low energy and what version [TS]

  and all this crazy stuff that they have to do that they have to contend with that Apple doesn't who can't do this [TS]

  because nobody's buying computers and even their tablets are pretty weak [TS]

  and they're also the similar issues of hardware diversity. Michael don't go can't do it now. [TS]

  They'll be able to eventually Apple can do it first so that only Apple can do this. [TS]

  Now it's important qualifier because eventually everyone will be able to do this and they will. [TS]

  Well the direction that that these various companies markets and products and strengths are going. [TS]

  I don't I don't see a future where nobody else can do this really well I mean like if it's a useful thing to do they [TS]

  catches on all the other players will develop some kind of open standard for doing it [TS]

  and eventually all the hardware will catch up in many years and like it the same thing with everything else. [TS]

  Only Apple can make the i Phone one but today Amazon can slap the other a phone that essentially looks [TS]

  and behaves to a regular person's perspective like the I thought of one. [TS]

  Hopefully maybe a little bit better for you but maybe not wealthy [TS]

  but you know I mean like there's a big lead time Apple has an advantage [TS]

  but it's mostly a temporal advantage not a qualitative advantage ever and it will eventually be able to. [TS]

  So yes this is just about what you'd be doing doing the things that they can do before anyone else can do them because [TS]

  they have more control than ever else and even Apple is kind of in the in Congo situation was like pork. [TS]

  So you know you got to have a new ish Maggie because the chipset needs to do whatever [TS]

  and you got to have a device with a lightning connector you sorry i Pad three users like me and you know all this. [TS]

  There are other even even with Apple's world [TS]

  and how fast they get everyone upgraded everything there is like the strength of Apple is doing it to centrally as soon [TS]

  as they possibly can [TS]

  and will see if this feature is like a killer feel like that's what you need if this is a feature that people really [TS]

  want. [TS]

  Then everyone else will eventually copy if it turns out to be something that's kind of OK [TS]

  but maybe not important enough for the other guys to go through the effort to copy then oh well [TS]

  but Apple has will have the advantage of the first mover advantage that it so they like to have. [TS]

  Yeah I think really ultimately this is the kind of thing that Apple is going to be the only game in town that really [TS]

  does it in any effective widespread way for the foreseeable future I really don't see that change anyway. [TS]

  I also worry too a bit like when networking is turn to the next is I agree with like devices and hardware [TS]

  and software just on those devices. [TS]

  Apple that happens we'll house but once you get anything involving the network I just have bad flashbacks I mean [TS]

  and like messages which I've been using much more lately because you see everyone's using messages [TS]

  and I was you know I guess last year I was doing it to maybe use messages way more [TS]

  and I kind of I'm still using it I've been using Mars in space this is my wife got. [TS]

  Maybe the i Phone five that she had before us [TS]

  but anyway I find myself using messages on the mac I find myself using it on my i Pod my kids via message account so I [TS]

  use them to talk to them on their various i Pods and i find the program maddening. [TS]

  Like it doesn't fill the basic function of writing text box I can type in do it's [TS]

  and now having a massive shop somewhere else some absurd percentage of the time it says not delivered [TS]

  and they are there to do is tap the exclamation point to try again and it says not delivered. Why is not delivered. [TS]

  Will it ever work sometimes I just have to delete that message and send the same message again [TS]

  and that will work I have no idea what it's failing on a basic level so I really hope continuity doesn't actually [TS]

  involve the Internet or any of Apple servers I hope it does ad hoc wife I like airdrop. [TS]

  I don't have to involve internet stuff either [TS]

  and I'm out of the net stuff it screws up I mean just today I thought we'd my time line someone said on one device I [TS]

  had a phone number another device had to lead to the phone number. Now neither device has their phone number. [TS]

  Thanks I like those like stuff like that. [TS]

  Some I know think is hard [TS]

  or whatever I'm just saying like that is outside Apple's still is outside Apple's So I really hope continuity only [TS]

  involves like the airspace and hardware and software that within my arm's reach [TS]

  and does not involve any servers anywhere I know push notification does better [TS]

  but I don't know I haven't I haven't tried it yet so we're all just hoping it will be good there is a potential You're [TS]

  right that potentially this is something that is right in Apple's wheel house. [TS]

  If it's outside it is not very far outside of just you know I get nervous. [TS]

  Yeah I mean that's that's certainly fair [TS]

  but I I really think the people give them a hard time with stuff like i Message weirdness but [TS]

  but you know if you look at things like i Pod key value store push notifications [TS]

  and really most use of my messages I'm message most use of my message I think everything works great [TS]

  and there are these there are like you know the fringes where things fall apart [TS]

  but the I think the bar the bar is low and I message though I could just text like I'm not asking for the world [TS]

  and not sending gifts like Katie is like I'm just just axed and like here's my fallback like in these times [TS]

  when I'm frustrated I can send a message and it's frustrating. I launched a G. [TS]

  Mail app and I send that they send that message as an e-mail [TS]

  and you know I sent every frickin time every second time I send the email [TS]

  and email if I have an internet connection could send the email every single time it has never said could not sent it [TS]

  has never failed. If I have a network connection and that it's tough to compete with that. [TS]

  Like when I find myself going to the G. [TS]

  Mail app [TS]

  or maybe even Apple's own mail app like I going to be if I use Apple's Mail I would have gone to that I message still [TS]

  angers me greatly. Thing is funny because I actually don't have any. [TS]

  Normally she's with i Message I occasionally get like a message failed to send. [TS]

  I only get like either time shifted message or something like that [TS]

  but maybe nine percent of the time I have no issues with my message [TS]

  and so it's so weird to me to hear that you have a ton of problems [TS]

  and you're not the only one that you have you've had to fail to send what is that mean what does that mean failed to [TS]

  send I don't understand what it's probably like I would like an error message. [TS]

  I'm thinking it means that the thing that it tried to send didn't send you I don't like why you have it with a server [TS]

  and I respond like I am not that I'm saying I need the details of like intellectual curiosity I wonder what it is that [TS]

  is not going to be like here's what I would want out of a thing like OK so you can't connect the dots for whatever [TS]

  reason [TS]

  or maybe there's a legitimate reason like some time to think maybe the phone like if their phone is rebooting cannot [TS]

  send this message like this some sort of like they want to show me the delivered message [TS]

  and it say there the phone with everybody can possibly be delivered because you know there's nothing to receive it like [TS]

  maybe that's what it is [TS]

  but even if that's the case which I think is ridiculous by the never really catered to be store [TS]

  and forward like most other I.M.C. Systems are like a Google talk or whatever. [TS]

  Even if that was the case it should be the job of the software. [TS]

  Just say I'll just keep trying don't don't don't worry about it all I won't say it was delivered like a lot to you [TS]

  but you don't have to keep getting the explanation point to try again I'll eventually get sent [TS]

  and want to really be a store and forward like e-mail [TS]

  or like Apparently every other I am message like going on a movable talk [TS]

  or whatever if someone is not on line of all their computers are turned off I can still send a message [TS]

  and the next time it's either the service or turn on one of their devices they'll see my message right. [TS]

  Like that's all I'm asking for it's not it's just tax man. Thanks a lot. [TS]

  Two or three sponsors this week needed need a lifestyle dot com hover and back please and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now it was accidental. Until you're sitting on the scene and it says to that list and the mighty titles. [TS]

  Did you survive I saw you yelling at the people in the gyro. [TS]

  But right now I want to be bitter and angry and say I'm just not bringing it back but that's immature. [TS]

  So problem this time. So the problem this time was somebody decided to. [TS]

  So I guess web sites may have been a poor choice. [TS]

  It's actually a technically sound choice for the problem is it's not very obvious skated. [TS]

  And because well I guess I could like you know be sixty four and code everything that andare of obfuscation [TS]

  but what was the problem. [TS]

  So the problem was that somebody decided to run a loop of voting for every possible ID [TS]

  and I.D.'s are in a church because I guess it wouldn't be because why do you need a grade [TS]

  or something super complex for an idea. You need any throttling is a defense against an out of service. [TS]

  You don't have any you like there's no I guess the problem is because you know the state to account for what you can do [TS]

  you can keep it a memory I mean like whenever it whenever I've done a great limiter in the application layer I was [TS]

  doing them cash because it's just it's quick it's easy it's like way I know it's fast and [TS]

  and if you if the if you hit the application consists only of launching your you know getting your. [TS]

  Back up to the controller level and you firing off a meme Tasha read Norman [TS]

  and then catching commander other I didn't even get a single process. [TS]

  You know yet if he could just keep it in a way that's the thing though is that well there's two problems one. [TS]

  I mean I'd have to do this all by hand because this is a raw socket to the server by definition that's what a website [TS]

  is and she was the I was the other one was. [TS]

  I realize that vote double vote prevention was totally borked [TS]

  and I it took me a few minutes to realize that all of the votes submissions were coming from ten dot X. [TS]

  Addresses which can't be extorted for a year to notice things exactly like it was like a mini web bootcamp for you my [TS]

  girl cause them with how to make a web. [TS]

  No it's just it's funny because so far abstracted from all of these things that you guys I guess have somehow [TS]

  or another had to worry about but somehow or another by writing web apps. [TS]

  No it's not it's just experience is just the same way you learned all the stuff you learn writing fast X.P. [TS]

  You didn't know before about how to write and I was up. [TS]

  Well there's a different set of things you need to know for web apps it is more fun when you're doing them publicly [TS]

  and it and this can be a whole series of a graduate school for Casey and Web ads just every week. [TS]

  You'll try you'll try and every week the chat room will educate you on something that you didn't account for [TS]

  or didn't do correctly and then the next week you can fix that and you can get a new problem. [TS]

  Well in this thing if like I write web apps for a living which at this point probably sounds like I make a terrible [TS]

  living but the thing is it's so much of it is abstracted so far away from me that I never have to worry [TS]

  but I've also heard for Internet's right not exclusively but generally yes. [TS]

  I've done some public face and stuff [TS]

  but I like things that aren't a target like basically you survive because like there's not people now we have a PA gas [TS]

  and it's a fun little game to target your things so it's fun for them. [TS]

  Just think of how I just think of how incredible your thing will be when forged in the crucible of. [TS]

  By the end of it it will just be completely hardened shell. [TS]

  Unlike so many other crappy things where someone writes a little web app and put that up and get up [TS]

  and says Here you go and then some poor sucker runs that and use it for something really popular [TS]

  and then it falls under the lower your ISP will be battle tested I guess. [TS]

  Or dead one of the battle tested it not ever sitting standing here now actually I feel like just murdering it forever [TS]

  more. But that's very mature of me so I will lick my wounds. [TS]

  I am well I will put bandages on them [TS]

  and I will take another stab sometime maybe next week I had to limit myself in the chat room for like half an hour [TS]

  though because not only was it distracting [TS]

  but I wanted to murder all of them you just need to like for all these things right like failing test cases for all [TS]

  them write a little test for denial of service to test your throttling write a little test [TS]

  or duplicate voting to have you know like do everything that is done to you turn into a test case [TS]

  and so that you'll know that your future changes don't regress and you know blah blah blah. [TS]

  You're right [TS]

  but the thing that that for us that's frustrating about it is this is a box of record votes for the chat room [TS]

  suggestions and votes for the challenges just titles like why am I having to go through all this like why can't we all. [TS]

  Why can't we all just act like an adult or act like adults and behave. [TS]

  But oh no not this crowd I'm wondering what the heck could like you know twenty people in the chat room due to bring [TS]

  down no J S How. Like I've seen the code it's not that complicated. [TS]

  Not going to bring it down that is writing an infinite loop and he's got no throttling end of the Nile virus right. [TS]

  Well I think what happens is at some point actually might be when wraparound like Brent was talking about way back [TS]

  when but anyway there is no way they're making enough requests to make a fifty three bit [TS]

  and it's a wrap around in twenty minutes when I WILL IT. [TS]

  Today the issue was they were just incrementing the idea in trying to place a vote for every successive ID number [TS]

  and eventually that did piss it off and make it fall down you know the. [TS]

  What the hell that are you know there's an acronym a wasp. Yes they do over open web application security products. [TS]

  Oh W A S P as like a list of you know common vulnerabilities and web apps and empty the list every year [TS]

  and you have hit several of them already one of them is exposing your internal ids to the outside world if you know [TS]

  what it's called the some snappy name for it and that's the one with people [TS]

  and command number to try to guess your ids. [TS]

  Well that's what they do but I mean here again like I did conceptually know that many of these things could [TS]

  and probably would be problems but I was perhaps too sore maybe just stubborn [TS]

  but I didn't think that I would need to write like ten thousand lines of No to prevent the chat room from being a bunch [TS]

  of balls and as it turns out I'm going to need to do that or just give up on it [TS]

  and will rely on Brad showed through all the great winter slash Brad set up there is in the package a note that's like [TS]

  a simple rate limiter and stuff like that. [TS]

  Well there is but again because I'm using web sockets not so simple [TS]

  but there's probably like a website its wrapper library that has a rate limiting parameter that you can you know many [TS]

  of the receiving end of your socket you're not going to have a sending [TS]

  and it's all going to be the receiving end that's the thing is I don't have to write my own rate limiting I did a quick [TS]

  cursory search to see if there was anything and I didn't see anything [TS]

  but I did know what thirty second search that tomorrow or some point [TS]

  when I'm less bitter about it all then I'll have a proper think on it. [TS]

  Not that it matters for her show bout or whatever [TS]

  but realistically speaking like for the people who are actually web developers and are [TS]

  and are listening to this this type of thing where a bunch of people are just intentionally attacking the Zap I go I'm [TS]

  glad the app that I'm doing doesn't have that problem. [TS]

  That's I mean you may luck out there but really what you're saying is my app is going to develop an add features [TS]

  and become important in the Central to the people who are using it [TS]

  and then some person is going to stumble across it [TS]

  and break it because it doesn't mean your application is not burnable to the. [TS]

  All will never experience these it just means that if if it's if it's not going to happen now it's going to happen [TS]

  later [TS]

  and later it's going to be worse because you want you want the stuff that if the stuff is ever going to happen in the [TS]

  lifetime of the app you want to happen early because it's not. [TS]

  It happens when the app is been deployed for six months and the entire business relies on it [TS]

  and then some piece of malware or bought or whatever stumbles across your thing or wiped off the face of the earth [TS]

  and that's a much bigger problem when your whole company now relies most after you have millions of customers [TS]

  or whatever you have. [TS]

  Then it would have been if during the early development of this app it had a bunch of jerks attacking it [TS]

  and major harden it again not really relevant to a show bot [TS]

  but I like it is relevant to people building a real app it's like don't stick your head in the sand with everybody get [TS]

  hit by one of these eventually and if you don't and you just you're the lucky [TS]

  or you never got popular enough to be noticed but even if you're not popular just this malware that scans [TS]

  and just you know forces its way into everything and so eventual every web app will be a victim. [TS]

  You know that's the thing is that I had thought since this is a controlled audience which I had assumed were all well [TS]

  behaved I didn't think I needed to do a lot of the things that I would have otherwise done in in my real world in my [TS]

  job world and I just took a lot of shortcuts because I thought well we're all friends here it will be OK. [TS]

  Parent Lena [TS]

  and by the way I know an apology too I think it's Adam Kearney who is already actually quite a while ago put up a pull [TS]

  request on get her because accidental but isn't there [TS]

  but a couple requests to fix an unrelated small issue that we discovered during the show about not refusing titles that [TS]

  are too long and that is the appropriate way to behave not if you didn't break it that's fine [TS]

  but through Throw me a pull request man. [TS]

  Did he submit the source code change as a very long title and hope that that would be funny. [TS]

  That would be the best way to do it but in a persistent so you would never see it [TS]

  and that's on the list is that I'll probably have to set up like some like no sequel. [TS]

  A vase or something just to stuff this in a renowned snuff school case [TS]

  and whatever just because well it's actually in a perfect world I would never need it because the darn thing I'll never [TS]

  crash [TS]

  but well I'm still how how did this take down a note instance this is this is either the worst ad in the world for Heroku [TS]

  small instances or the worst ad in the world for no good or my code [TS]

  but to be honest like like you said this code is pretty straightforward. [TS]

  I mean I don't know I really don't know because I've survived a couple of a couple of links from your site which proved [TS]

  as far as I could tell some pretty serious traffic we talked about that in the past in an Hiroki like us in the past [TS]

  reach out to me and said Oh yeah that was nothing like you your your diner was good to go cruising at like [TS]

  and here they said it was like under a third C.P.U. [TS]

  Usage bandwidth usage your throughput is cetera so I dunno if it's my code if it's the fact that its website gets [TS]

  something as weird as the connection limit on the website could layer somewhere it could be I'm not aware of one [TS]

  but it certainly could be I mean there are so many only submit so many port numbers but I can imagine that's the issue. [TS]

  Well it could be you could guard against him whenever So yeah so but what if I told Michelle about it works [TS]

  and he has been meeting today. [TS]