The Accidental Tech Podcast

69: Welcome to the Web, Casey


  Time was when oil users were behind one big proxy we have important follow up this week first of all if you got two T. [TS]

  Shirts that is fine. That was supposed to happen. [TS]

  What happened was the first tee shirt had some printing problems mostly in the back where the font wasn't rendered so [TS]

  it like it like fell back to a default font [TS]

  and it printed are monospace code in a fixed width font variable with font you mean. Yes sorry thank you. [TS]

  I've missed you John and they're just taking all the feedback of readers of the slide. Thanks. [TS]

  So anyway after the second one is has the fixed font issue which because also I thought the spacing [TS]

  and everything was it was really weird looking before so the spring was kind enough to reprint all the shirts at no [TS]

  cost [TS]

  and send everybody that was supposed to happen so it was no mistake if you got a second one doubts in fact it might be [TS]

  a mistake if you didn't and you don't have to return the other ones that you got [TS]

  or anything just you know keep them with the springs compliments [TS]

  and we thank the spring for fixing the air so quickly and fully. [TS]

  And the question is which Sheraton now is more valuable. [TS]

  We mentioned in the past shows about the shipping printed if the printing on the back messes up it's like the upside [TS]

  down airplane stamps and now you have to share it you have one where the printing on the back is totally messed up [TS]

  and it's like in a variable with font [TS]

  but the metrics of the letter spacing are like the metrics of a MA The monospaced font. [TS]

  Yeah crazy amount of space it just looks terrible [TS]

  and then there's the one printed the way we intended which one of those shirts is better now because you could be like [TS]

  I've got one of the to be sure it's for the printing and [TS]

  when everybody's got one with a printing error at this point anyone who's going to need to be sure it's the same amount [TS]

  of both and it will always be the same man to both because it's not like you can go order the shirt now [TS]

  and get the fix not only like it's the same quantity of both [TS]

  or if that will probably ever exist you know next year will probably have a day. [TS]

  If insured and we'll see how this turns out. [TS]

  But of isn't fielding a lot of tweets in mails from people asking about double sure it's just give [TS]

  and a lot of e-mails and tweets from people who said they got two shirts [TS]

  but did not notice any difference between them and that was surprising to me. [TS]

  For for listeners of the show don't tell T. [TS]

  Spring about [TS]

  but there's definitely a difference once I feel like once we tell them Oh there was a problem depending on the back [TS]

  and they lay them both down and look at the two backs the big difference between Yet also the A.T.P. [TS]

  Badge on the front on the new shirt is a little bit lighter in shade because you know when you [TS]

  when you give somebody a color to print and a shirt has to go through color conversion and become a print color [TS]

  and that entire world just sucks in every possible way the entire run of like color converting for print [TS]

  and trying to get color to look right in print is just a terrible terrible existence. And here's to T. [TS]

  Spring for a living in that world so that we all don't have to you know I was very nice and right that wrong and [TS]

  and regardless of who was at fault it sounds like it might have been a little bit of calm a little bit of calm be burn [TS]

  out in the spring was entirely OK because like I mean here's the thing like I feel bad for them it's good for has [TS]

  always been good to me and they like that. [TS]

  They've taken action to correct problems but it's better if you don't have the problem to begin with [TS]

  and I'm think speaking mostly from Peace brings perspective because from the customer's perspective everybody get two [TS]

  shirts for the price of one. [TS]

  Those great procrastinators [TS]

  but for teens bring like Margo said it's like if you have a lot of the thing look correct in the preview [TS]

  and they printed a huge number of shirts like no human looked at them to compare them to the preview on their Web site. [TS]

  Like you figured you'd print one look at it and say yep OK print ten thousand or so of those right. [TS]

  So I feel like they need to amend their process because it's you know they're great company that they're eating that [TS]

  cost and doing it but on the other hand it's kind of THEIR fault [TS]

  and I would feel like they would have processes in place to do a human Sandy check of runs over a thousand shirts [TS]

  or something. Yeah and in their defense they. [TS]

  As soon as they became aware of the problem they were in contact with me a lot [TS]

  and I had talking like three different people there [TS]

  and everyone trying to resolve the thing they want to be you know some of the original file because of the errors they [TS]

  could fix it and they told me like they're changed on these policies so I think it scared them enough [TS]

  and probably cause them to lose enough money that they that they made some changes as a result I mean he bent over [TS]

  backwards for I have a critical shirt right out like they've definitely been you know like they have that part of the [TS]

  business down where the response of the customers and do the right thing that is going to work [TS]

  and they have a part of the tip of his where you don't make mistakes to begin with [TS]

  and I mean if I want to Denmark over anything I assumed you were a blowout lions if I had known you were applauding [TS]

  text I would have advised you to upload outlines [TS]

  but in my day the essence of the issue was the they recommend you up literally P.S. [TS]

  OK and I don't know anything about the stuff that I this was one of the first one that ever used straighter [TS]

  and less to do this and I'll blow the P.S. [TS]

  and I checked it had the embedded font and I didn't convert to outlines I don't know that was a thing that you could [TS]

  or should do so I didn't put out I just uploaded the P.S. [TS]

  With the embedded copy of the font and every designer once I you know went to the problem [TS]

  and I mentioned every designer was like oh no you never do that because printer so often screw up well I didn't know [TS]

  that I didn't have the experience to know that and so I thought I better find it's find right [TS]

  and then the bigger problem I think was that in their image preview on the site it rendered it correctly because the [TS]

  image the thing that generates the image preview has a different rasterize er than the thing that actually prints on to [TS]

  the shirts and so that's kind of a problem. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and that's why it's ultimately the springs for like you know Marco it is the experience of not converting to outline [TS]

  because he hadn't been using illustrator since illustrator eighty eight has black [TS]

  and white I think spring things that line but you know the preview shows one thing [TS]

  and you get something else printed like that's the whole basis of the site is like you hope you could read about [TS]

  and you see a picture you say yes I want that picture to become a real thing you hook some more buttons [TS]

  and then a real shirt shows up at your house right. And in. [TS]

  A defense one of the things they asked me for was a copy the original file because they said their rasterize [TS]

  or should have used the embedded font like that was not intended behaviour that it didn't like [TS]

  and they didn't want to require everyone to use outlines because they know you know T. [TS]

  Spring used by a lot of amateurs. [TS]

  You know it's not it's not always professional two hundred using it it's often times like you know some some group [TS]

  maybe making thing making shirts to raise money for like you know their youth group or something and [TS]

  and so you know they wanted to work with people who are not illustrator experts so they you know the new way they [TS]

  resolved it well so I'm happy with them. [TS]

  Anyway let's move on we have a lot of feedback or feedback is like fifteen pages long [TS]

  or document what is the result as I know it and I think it's mostly John because I certainly didn't do it [TS]

  but another really quick one. We were all obviously in San Francisco last week for D.C. [TS]

  and I just wanted to quickly say thank you to everyone who said hi to us to everyone that what war was purchased [TS]

  and then war sure to anyone who went to the talk show into Gruber for having us on the talk show I had a really [TS]

  fantastic week I think I speak for the two of you guys as well and saying so [TS]

  and so again anyone who spent any amount of time with us even if it was just to say hey thank thank you for that [TS]

  and I have some more follow up on the talk show [TS]

  and in addition to saying yeah I agree that was awesome thank you you know the did OK to use [TS]

  and I was completely wrong about how cloud kit limits work and I definitely said the wrong thing on the talk show [TS]

  and I think I even said the wrong thing on our show last week where the cloud kit limits are raised per user by [TS]

  something like you know one meg of data bases one hundred megs of attitudes [TS]

  but each user is not limited to that one meg [TS]

  and a hundred megs that simply every user adds that amount to your total pool [TS]

  and the resources are pool between everybody so that does dramatically change things for how you can use cloud cloud [TS]

  kit and whether you can rely on. [TS]

  Being sufficient for you [TS]

  or not it still leaves a few questions like like you know we still don't really know what happens [TS]

  when you hit that limit and you know any anything involving like you know so you know what is there. [TS]

  What happens I have one user is a complete outlier [TS]

  and uses like a gig of the database somehow because they have some script going that runs around something like How do [TS]

  you how do you solve issues like that with it so there's still some issues [TS]

  but it isn't nearly as scary as I assumed it was because the resources are pulled by that amount. [TS]

  Not limited per user I'm not sure that change that clarification is important [TS]

  but I don't share it changes it entirely for you know we're talking about the example of a good un to do Instagram on [TS]

  this even though the users will have varying amounts. [TS]

  If it's like only one hundred megs of like blobs charge per user any user use Instagram will blow through that in like [TS]

  a year if they're regular users like your average user will blow through that so it opens up a little bit to to more [TS]

  variability if you think most new users are going to use like one meg [TS]

  and a couple of people are going to use like five hundred megs [TS]

  and you're having it having it at one hundred megs to the pool for each user for blob storage is good [TS]

  but anything that's involving serious amounts of data. [TS]

  You mean do I get it I question I will if I start my own little Instagram after year everybody's going to have more [TS]

  hundreds more than a hundred megs of photos right so then what of what happens. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  but you know if you like the means I gave on the talk show which was you know could they use this for Vesper investors [TS]

  a note taking at the ports in the blog attachments but most people don't use one of the Middle C. [TS]

  Because used protection most people would have a hard time making a megabyte of text notes. [TS]

  Honestly used very very heavily [TS]

  but you know so investors case like it might be a bad idea to say you can only have up to a megabyte of text notes [TS]

  but I bet their average is so far below a mega byte that you know they would be OK to use it if they want to. [TS]

  I would pull stats from all active users before I. We had committed to that. [TS]

  You know names like see what the average find out you can find out what the average is like make sure you know whatever [TS]

  your user data collection agreement allows for this or whatever [TS]

  and then just see what the average size is because who knows what people are doing with Vesper. [TS]

  You know like maybe people are using it as a photo collecting up for all we know one of the discussions they were [TS]

  having before they launched the sync service was you know they don't actually know because you know before there was a [TS]

  sync service a few weeks ago they didn't actually know what the average usage was of these things you know how much [TS]

  people actually how many pictures because you know hosting pictures of obviously a lot more data than hosting Texan [TS]

  and I will how many pictures people take with Vesper in are there are a lot of image notes so there are the images very [TS]

  large and they are outliers that have just tons and tons and tons of image notes and [TS]

  and you know if you don't know that like I'm facing the overcast now I'm actually getting reasonably close to launch [TS]

  now and I have no idea what to expect on the server side and therefore the cost side. [TS]

  It's very hard to predict these things. [TS]

  That's one of the reasons why you know Cloud Gate is very attractive to a lot of people because if you have like this [TS]

  this rock in launch where you get you get way more people than you thought you would. [TS]

  Your costs are not going to skyrocket. [TS]

  Well unless you hit one of those like Master limits that's really really high [TS]

  but I think that would be quite difficult. [TS]

  You know if you're caught you unpredictable great ability of your initial cost an additional server needs is kind of [TS]

  removed as a as a stress and pain and possible business model pain point you know. [TS]

  So it is very it is a very attractive option and I think a lot of people are going to use it. [TS]

  I hope somebody does so that we can see if things have really improved because of like think back to [TS]

  when you mentioned like if you have a really big launch you'll be happy you did this letter for a lot of press. [TS]

  What's the first really popular app to use this Apple provided cloud service [TS]

  and the case of Game Center it was a lot of press it was very popular and Game Center fell over [TS]

  and cried like a little baby. [TS]

  Well apparently Apple's new Photos app [TS]

  and the photos sync service is supposedly all built on cloud it's the same thing [TS]

  and you know who knows they probably have some kind of reserve capacity maybe [TS]

  but I don't know you know supposedly that is what they are doing so in other news we have been. [TS]

  It is currently nine fifteen and I was trying to use my show bot [TS]

  and Marco tried to tell me I'm broke already hold on the Marco tried to tell me [TS]

  when I was writing a show about a couple of weeks ago that people in these are my words not markers that people are [TS]

  jerks and they're going to do whatever they can to mess with shoebox and I said No no it will be fine. [TS]

  Our listeners are great they're awesome [TS]

  and all of a sudden while you were talking I look at the show bot which is all run kind of real time using web site [TS]

  hits and next thing I know I see that the does Casey show but actually work title just skyrocketing in votes [TS]

  and so someone apparently has decided to make web A.P.I. [TS]

  Requests Web site requests to add a vote to that particular item and then eventually crash and show [TS]

  but they're not being jerks they're being good testers. [TS]

  Maybe but anyway so the point is that it lasted fifteen minutes [TS]

  and that that is how long the chat room can handle a new toy to play with [TS]

  and then subsequently break you're going to be a good father. [TS]

  I mention that your show but the show about has never worked for me I mean it's never worked. [TS]

  It is never member I tried tried it once from work [TS]

  and I thought oh maybe it's not working as a Farokh some weird website good thing and I've tried it from home [TS]

  and all I ever see is the word connecting all I've ever seen of the show about. Well if you want you can see that now. [TS]

  I just restarted. I know I am looking at it now and it says connecting so I am you know Markos. Any P.H.P. [TS]

  Thing one case is no job of zero Well that's what I get for trying to do something [TS]

  and see what his age actually made even better as a web site if he leapt right past Ajax. [TS]

  He went to he went too far away. Something happened now it says titles. [TS]

  No something's happening that I was like seven minute load time. If you're if you're going to K.C. [TS]

  What I also told you is you know it would be nice if we had some kind of persistent storage that way if you don't lose [TS]

  all the titles that have been suggested Up until that you know I know of the problem is be nice if you could write it [TS]

  out to a file every few seconds but that's the thing it's all kidding aside I did look into this [TS]

  and the problem is because this is hosted on Heroku because I generally like Heroku the file system is a family [TS]

  and so even if I dump something a file then if I do anything that file will go away. [TS]

  Like if I restart the Dyna like I just did the file will go away. [TS]

  One should just make a web request to someone who is running a real web server waiting for it you know I could tell you [TS]

  my servers can save files that it's a crazy thing and I know it's it's it's bleeding edge brand new technology [TS]

  but my servers are actually able to save data to disk. [TS]

  Well and that's the thing is what I need to do is as people are recommending the chat I need to use post press [TS]

  or some other sequel or something like that hit on it do you post close the show titles like right now like a file [TS]

  or a number. [TS]

  That's why I didn't but a but apparently her own cruise file system is all ephemeral or maybe it isn't [TS]

  and I just don't realize it but the only reason I was supposed to [TS]

  or that was trying to bring this up was to point out that it took virtually no time for the chat room to just [TS]

  completely tear apart my show but now they're putting in script hags putting in long titles. Welcome to the Web K.V. [TS]

  Have you ever used a computer. Oh my God this is why you apples don't have nice things. [TS]

  I quit I quit the show and I quit you. Although I'm not you to everyone else. [TS]

  I love that you were that you were so naive that you didn't think this would have been you you were so you're such a [TS]

  nice person K.Z. You really are. Faith in humanity and God How wrong I was. [TS]

  I'm sorry anyway we can carry on understood ignore my own creation. [TS]

  Whatever you big jerks you the three of us records everyone else I don't like. Anyway moving on. [TS]

  All right so we have some follow up next [TS]

  but a follow up this is after a bunch of people tweeted does that mean I thought it was clever. [TS]

  I wouldn't get to the actual show [TS]

  and I haven't actually looked into this because I have not seen any of the sessions related to this because they're [TS]

  mostly I was related everything [TS]

  but in the keynote they mentioned bundles you can sell a bunch of apps on the App Store together for one price [TS]

  and apparently kind of like [TS]

  and i Tunes where there's the complete this album button where you buy the rest of the song by the album minus the cost [TS]

  of the songs you already bought in the album. [TS]

  There's a complete the spinal thing on the App Store [TS]

  and I'm assuming there is because of these people who are telling me there was where if you bought one app in a two [TS]

  hour bundle you could complete this bundle by simply paying the difference for the second app [TS]

  and people are proposing this as a terrible confusing way to do upgrade pricing because what you do is [TS]

  when you have a new version of your app you keep the first version of the app in the store you know there's the new [TS]

  version at whatever price you want to sell to new users and then you make a bundle that includes the old version [TS]

  and the new version for less than the sum of their prices which allows people who already own the old version to [TS]

  complete this bundle effectively giving them an upgrade price which again I guess that I think that is terrible [TS]

  and confusing and not obvious [TS]

  but it is a clever hack of the rules as presented to me by these people who sent me that information to either of you [TS]

  know if that stuff is accurate about completeness bundle I do not. [TS]

  Are there any bundles actually in the store yet that we could even see there are you can make him yet if this is all [TS]

  true and it actually works like this people will do this for their for their upgrades for upgrade pricing [TS]

  and it will be confusing to users [TS]

  and so that's a shame like imagine people on their Web sites trying to tell people like if you want to upgrade price. [TS]

  Go get the bundle but do complete this bundle [TS]

  and I don't know that this is like if this loophole exists Apple needs to close it now because it's terrible to allow [TS]

  pricing up because it's so confusing and you know developers would jump on it in a second. [TS]

  Everyone will have the stupid instructions on their website telling people how to get upgrade pricing by buying a [TS]

  bundle which is non-obvious. [TS]

  It will also I mean the biggest thing the thing could blow a hole in this is do you have to have all the apps that are [TS]

  in the bundle still in the absolute by themselves because if you do that means you have to have your old version still [TS]

  for sale while your new version is for sale and that's terrible. [TS]

  Well so the idea I mean again the terrible prose idea is you keep the old one in the store for a limited time because [TS]

  the upgrade pricing would be some windows like a couple months [TS]

  and you raise the individual price of the like the standalone old version to something crazy that no one actually buy [TS]

  of course you know that's like you hope nonlife way by until someone actually buys your you know nine hundred ninety [TS]

  nine dollars happen is pissed off that all of this is just like a terrible workaround to get into a loophole to give [TS]

  your existing customers a cheaper price for your new Apple has so many bad side effects they just need they need to [TS]

  close this whole I don't know how they will close except they have a complete this bundle thing I don't know how you [TS]

  stop this from happening. [TS]

  Yeah I think it's just one of those things like developers are they're so desperate to they we are so desperate to get [TS]

  ongoing revenue because you know what happens in the afternoon the paid apis the world was happens you launch [TS]

  and you get this nice big spike of sales but then it starts dropping and sometimes that drop can be pretty steep. [TS]

  So eventually you know you start making not enough money from your current version [TS]

  and I go OK well now I I want to work on this new version [TS]

  or we have been working on this new version of how to release it. Gotta make more money from this. [TS]

  Now in the olden days you release a new version [TS]

  and charge an upgrade price because the full price was generally high enough you know if you're charging one hundred [TS]

  bucks for the full price of your app and then you release a new. [TS]

  Isn't your existing customers would like it a lot if you get a new version for maybe fifty bucks or forty bucks [TS]

  or whatever so that you know the upgrade discount thing happened. [TS]

  Well now in the in the I was apps door there's pretty much no good way to do [TS]

  or the max for this room is no good way to do that [TS]

  and the developers are always looking for a way to get around this and to do this [TS]

  but the reality is all these things are terrible hacks [TS]

  and they will all anger some portion of your customers to some degree a matter HOW you do them and or you know and [TS]

  or cause you lots of support cost [TS]

  and so it just never there is no good solution is the only solution to this is what Apple's doing with their apps in [TS]

  the App Store the few Apple apps that they still charge money for in the App Store which that number keeps going down [TS]

  but the few apps like the pro apps they charge money for you know logic aperture stuff like that. [TS]

  Final Cut they use they drop all the prices down to a fraction what used to be you know these things used to be like [TS]

  three hundred dollars six hundred dollars a thousand dollars now. [TS]

  Like things that were a thousand dollars an hour three hundred dollars things that were three hundred dollars an hour [TS]

  like seventy bucks. [TS]

  You know the logic is only two hundred like they drop in their prices and then [TS]

  when a new version comes out it's it's just like Apple hardware [TS]

  or the new version cost the same thing as the old version. [TS]

  If you bought the old version too bad you want new and pay full price. [TS]

  And that's a little more palatable now than it used to be because the prices have gotten lower it's still kind of sucks [TS]

  but in a lot of ways it's you know quote fair. It's also from Apple's point of view it's also a very very simple. [TS]

  The new version of the app is a brand new standalone app the old the old version is removed from the store so you can [TS]

  only buy the new one and upgrades are you know well you're paying less than you used to pay be happy [TS]

  and so that same model applies to i OS but the prices of course are even lower. [TS]

  Instead of a hundred dollars or pain a dollar [TS]

  or five dollars at most you know almost no one's paying over five dollars and eyeless for anything really. [TS]

  If you buy you know tweet bought one for three bucks and then next week three but two comes out [TS]

  and it's another three bucks. Too bad like that. [TS]

  That's the attitude that we have to have that their only choice really. [TS]

  That's what Apple has done with their stuff they're leading the way on that [TS]

  and I think people are pretty much used to it I mean people complain about are what you do if you charge money there's [TS]

  always an if you will complain but I don't think you'd have fewer people complaining if you'd upgrade pricing [TS]

  and so the reality is this is the world we live in now this is you know Apple has been very clear that if you want to [TS]

  do some kind of a grid pricing scheme figured a way of making that purchase you know the purchase is the way that you [TS]

  add features to an existing app and try to get more money from them. That's that's it. [TS]

  So the chat room has come through and link us to the documentation for the app bundles [TS]

  and to relevant rules from this page from Apple app contains an abundant must be available for sale on their own as [TS]

  well so you do have to keep the other old wrap for sale in the store [TS]

  and app bundles also sport complete my bundle complete my bundle provide customers who previously purchased one of more [TS]

  of the apps included within the bundle an additional discount on the app bundle. [TS]

  So I don't know for the Streights attraction or price or whatever but perfect so that you can do this [TS]

  but it's a terrible idea too. [TS]

  Yeah and I feel people will do it [TS]

  and I'm not sure how I bore react to it because if they just sort of shrug Oh well they're within the rules we defined. [TS]

  I expect there to be some confusion and sadness but it's the App Store. [TS]

  If you have both versions of your app in the store at the same time they're both paid apps you're going to get so many [TS]

  angry customers so many angry support emails so many one star reviews. I think that problem will be self-correcting. [TS]

  It's a terrible terrible idea to have both heard in the store at the same time because people will accidently by the [TS]

  old one and then be very angry that you spent money on an obsolete app that doesn't entitle them too much [TS]

  or any of a discount on a new one you know in total. [TS]

  And yeah it's well the cry to me that's all they have cranking the price up on the old one [TS]

  and then just refunding anyone who likes it. [TS]

  Only by that in eating thirty percent of the can't refund an Apple has to refund it's a thing we used to develop You [TS]

  can't just put a refund but in the millions. [TS]

  Sorry I correct that you have no control over that it's this is why it's a terrible idea. [TS]

  Developers Please do not do this it is you will regret it your customers will be upset. [TS]

  It is it is just a very very bad idea. [TS]

  I wonder if the people who are most likely to do this are the very few people in the App Store who still have expensive [TS]

  apps like over fifty bucks [TS]

  and they want to offer upgrade pricing because like you said upgrade pricing is pointless [TS]

  when you're selling three dollars apps right. [TS]

  But if it's like fifty dollars one hundred dollars Are there any of those left I don't even know used to be that Apple [TS]

  was close to that range but now I'm not really anymore these days a low or the average like eighty or something. [TS]

  Anyway Apple's not playing the game the shambles [TS]

  or is hobbling us I wonder if there's someone out there with like some specialty CAD application they want their offer [TS]

  of pricing and try this [TS]

  and then we can wait for their blog posts where they cry about their customers going to angry people being confused. [TS]

  Yeah I could see you know that the higher the price the more sense it might make to try a scheme like this [TS]

  but I just I think it's a terrible idea from the start. [TS]

  And speaking of looking at web pages a developer dot apple dot com [TS]

  and reading about the money where a lot of confusion during the week about what the hell is the N.D.A. [TS]

  Situation for D.C. [TS]

  Because all of us were at the beginning of every session they have now third person come on [TS]

  and say reminder everything under the in the session is and blah blah blah and like you know the boilerplate text [TS]

  and speech that we encountered that ws even the same as every year which is basically the keynote is public a stream to [TS]

  the world all the sessions are under N.D.A. [TS]

  And they are but the content of that [TS]

  and according to various blog posts included this new clauses that oh by the way you're allowed to talk about any [TS]

  technical information you see in these things you just can't like post screenshots copy and paste text from slides [TS]

  or distribute the software or review products or something of that effect but I'm not a lawyer [TS]

  and I didn't know what that text meant so we've all been very cautious about it but. [TS]

  Here I think is the kicker after coming home from the receipt I think we all realize that anybody in any web browser [TS]

  can go to Apple's developer website without having an account of any kind without signing and agreeing to anything [TS]

  and simply play videos from the area so you can watch videos of all the sessions of W.C. [TS]

  This year for free without signing any agreement with Apple which means basically that anything contained in those [TS]

  videos were allowed to talk about because anybody can see them because it's essentially public information I know [TS]

  enough about Apple and days to know that if it's public information you can talk about it so that is a relief. [TS]

  In one respect in that we don't have to tiptoe around this stuff because it was in a recession. [TS]

  We can talk about it if you can just go watch the video right now [TS]

  and on the other hand what it means is that anybody who cares can sit there watch everybody will have the reason to [TS]

  read my posts [TS]

  and review because everything everything in those videos you will know more than you're going to learn from my review [TS]

  because all I do is summarize [TS]

  but no one wants a lot of those videos that are probably read anyway because as long as a matter of you it is still way [TS]

  short of annoying everybody. Yeah I think you'll be all right. Anyway our first sponsor this week is a new sponsor. [TS]

  It is automatic. [TS]

  They actually this is this is a relatively new product actually got the domain name automatic dot com even spelled the [TS]

  normal way not like the word press where it's built the actual way that you spell the word automatic automatic is your [TS]

  smart driving assistant for your smartphone. [TS]

  So if you don't like coming into this thing and we actually we talked about this in neutral [TS]

  and I think the second to last episode or the third last episode or neutral which you talked about this [TS]

  and we are probably irresponsible enough drivers Well at least that this would have probably some bad news for so [TS]

  here's here's what it does. [TS]

  So this plugs in it they have a little I think it's a Bluetooth done though [TS]

  but they have a little dongle that plugs into the B.D. Which ones the wrapper with the port on board data O.B.D. [TS]

  She wrote B D two Oh yeah. [TS]

  Yes yes except in your car that it's a you know it's like in the driver's footwell [TS]

  and it's like it's what they call the diagnostic thing into [TS]

  when you go get service they have a little a little dongle plays into that [TS]

  and then that can connect to an app on your phone that they have [TS]

  and this diagnostic for in almost any modern car can dump out tons of useful information from the engine like what you [TS]

  know what kind of gas mileage you're getting what the engine is doing what kind of condition the engine is in if [TS]

  there's any problems with the engine if you know when the check engine light comes on. [TS]

  What that really means is there is an error. [TS]

  You know it's a boolean like there's something something in your car before an error code. [TS]

  This thing can actually tell you what those codes mean. [TS]

  They can decode them for almost all popular car types you can go on the Web site [TS]

  and learn more about which ones are supported and everything but it's it's great. [TS]

  So then they can even tell you how you how you've been doing on your gas mileage you can see of these pretty Grafton [TS]

  averages [TS]

  and you can you can like you know kind of compete with yourself you know you can see how you can do it how much fuel is [TS]

  costing around your area and how much your driving style is helping [TS]

  or hurting your fuel cost goals they can often you can also remember where you parked and you can locate your car [TS]

  and I saw a map and look at their Abbots all you know very like Apple design it's very well made. [TS]

  Right now it is i Phone only it is coming soon to Android. [TS]

  Oh one more little benefit that they will they benefit potentially if you are in a crash in a serious crash. [TS]

  They can actually automatically detect that from the O B D port and [TS]

  and they can notify local authorities automatically if you're in a crash so this thing could really help you out. [TS]

  Hopefully you won't need that feature but if you do you might be glad you have it. [TS]

  So anyway I thought only coming to an end or this shift in only two business days [TS]

  and there's a forty five day return policy to get it try to see if you like it I bet you will is free shipping anyway [TS]

  go to automatic dot com slash a cheapie. [TS]

  Normally it's ninety nine ninety five and there's no description fees nothing per month for that. [TS]

  By by the thing and that's it. [TS]

  So under Bush Normally you can get twenty percent off get the thing for eighty bucks an automatic dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to automatically sponsoring our show [TS]

  when we talked about this on neutral it was sort of in the context of a car manufacturer should be ashamed of [TS]

  themselves that they're not right. [TS]

  But now here we are a year or two later or whatever it's been and that's the new status quo with Apple doing Car Play. [TS]

  It's like give up on car makers trying to do something Apple just like look just let us take over your screen. [TS]

  We will project a U.I. [TS]

  Onto it from our device [TS]

  and it's sort of externalizing the technology part into a part that you upgrade faster than you upgrade your car [TS]

  and never relying on the camera you've actually doing things so it's like you know with automatic There's a sport that [TS]

  has information car manufacturers have been really slow to put that information to use especially in non high end cars. [TS]

  But they all have the sport so why don't we sell this thing that people can buy steak in there [TS]

  and use it in conjunction with their smartphone or whatever to sort of add technology to their otherwise inexpensive [TS]

  and woefully under technology technological fied that's not a word but sounds good. Car Now it is. [TS]

  So one more thing on the N.B.A. [TS]

  Stuff as people have noted if you go to the video page which we'll put in the show notes for anyone who wants to watch [TS]

  you see videos the ones that they pretty much never really some video in my recollection are the lunchtime sessions [TS]

  which are not technical sessions presented by Apple that Apple invites in guest speakers from various places. [TS]

  A couple years ago Pixar did it J.J. [TS]

  Abrams was there one year this year the one session that I went to was presented by someone who works for Lucas Film On [TS]

  Star Wars franchise [TS]

  and he was talking about the new show that the new animated show that he's working on the kind of did a big tour of the [TS]

  Star Wars universe and his history with it. [TS]

  Those You're not going to be able to find and it's not because I don't think there's any end. [TS]

  Things just that I think there deal with the people who want to come in [TS]

  and speak is we're not going to film you we're not going to release your film just come [TS]

  and talk to the people who are attending our conference as [TS]

  and I think that's probably an easier sell than a famous person to come here and we'll film you [TS]

  and then we'll sell access to your video I release it for free so you won't find a star [TS]

  or a session which is the one most nerds are interested in this year I was there [TS]

  and it was good it was fun it's a shame you can't see it but oh all right. [TS]

  Some amount more follow up to get through this might be a hypercritical style eighty percent follow up that the [TS]

  synergies are going to say we could just do this next item [TS]

  and then leave the rest because there's there's one might I'm on cloud and two items on medical stuff [TS]

  but I think maybe we mention the prehaps but I just want to read this. [TS]

  This point cloud feedback because it was the first time that I had heard this information although I think one of you [TS]

  two had alluded to it before. [TS]

  This is from anonymous sources who knows amidst real whatever anyway typical cabbie out about feedback do not take this [TS]

  as gospel but here is what this person said in regards to Apple in the cloud. [TS]

  Said i Tunes i Cloud of the majority of server based interfacing are handled by a huge division of Apple that acts [TS]

  almost like its own company due to sheer size. [TS]

  They employ mostly contractors including offshore from my experience they were the slowest responding division by far [TS]

  and seem to be completely locked in politics this is like the scenario that we imagined [TS]

  and thinking about Apple's cloud stuff like it seems like the people who do that aren't as good as the people who do [TS]

  the other stuff I didn't say they were as good I said. [TS]

  They seem like the one getting the resources or the priority that they need to be good. [TS]

  Well so here's the next the next bit of us as a software developer outside the division is needed to work with them in [TS]

  parallel to build something it's a nightmare. Imagine submitting a request to the N.S.A. [TS]

  To give you information [TS]

  and receiving a piece of paper saying they can't do the technical reason six months later like it's not that they're [TS]

  not good. [TS]

  It's not just of their under-resourced that they seem to be not as responsive like they're not it's not working on the [TS]

  scene. Team like within Apple you imagine. [TS]

  All right we got to get the new i Phone out and we need US needs to be done [TS]

  and whatever framework for these new features need to be on there [TS]

  and the hardware design like it's all I ever did working together just get this job done [TS]

  and then there's this other entity far away disconnected with a huge latency where every time you have to deal with [TS]

  them it's like a big turn around time [TS]

  and it seems like going on the same page as you are just because they're under-resourced [TS]

  or the just because they're remote I don't know [TS]

  but this you could if this is true this would explain why their class up has such problems because it's almost like [TS]

  it's not Apple doing it it's like this other entity that's not that's not running the same race with them that's not [TS]

  sort of together on producing this big thing [TS]

  but you know outsourcing this policy they don't outsource your core competency if cloud is an apple core come to the [TS]

  competency at this point in what it is like they need to think to bring that back in if it really is outsourced like [TS]

  this because if this is true it is very depressing [TS]

  and a bad situation it's almost as if they need increased collaboration. [TS]

  Now that will just increase collaboration amongst like the hardware [TS]

  and software guys they stop them from finding those of the people who already were working pretty well together. [TS]

  This is who knows. So again I don't know if any of this is true. [TS]

  Anonymous sources who knows but if it is true it confirms my worst fears [TS]

  and presumably it is changing like the cloud of good stuff would indicate a change in that direction because it sure [TS]

  seems like you know that Apple is dog food in it's own stuff and to a degree that they hadn't before [TS]

  and that cloud it looks like a much much more sane A.P.I. Than the previous ones much more like the A.P.I. [TS]

  Was that everyone was building for themselves so things are looking up in this area this is a sort of a look backward [TS]

  on how things might have been if this is all accurate. Yeah and you know that that does corroborate what I heard. [TS]

  That's more detail than I'd heard but also I heard from some place we had somebody else I don't oppose same person [TS]

  or maybe was around a conversation I had somewhere [TS]

  but somebody else said that this actually was like actively changing and you know so like Federighi was now able to. [TS]

  It kind of push against that to some degree and you know get stuff moving and that apparently changes were happening [TS]

  and with that that's all that we know really that we and as we really know that. [TS]

  But it basically sounds like it has been bad and it's it is still a little bit bad but is is making progress [TS]

  and I think what Apple is showing what they're announcing and even just how their stuff is performing. [TS]

  Recently I think like the results seem to be bearing that out. [TS]

  That seems like a plausible explanation of what we're seeing. [TS]

  Anyway before I move on to the official topics on which punch about of the way because we were a little late to the [TS]

  first one our second sponsor this week is Lynda dot com L Y N D A dot com dot com helps you learn to keep up to date [TS]

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  and it's a flat fee you get unlimited access to everything for twenty five bucks a month so that kind of. [TS]

  We moved the pressure in her head like well do I really want to learn about this thing for another three dollars you [TS]

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  I always assumed it would be harder or oh that's how you can do this cool thing I never knew that. [TS]

  So anyway go to Lynda dot com L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. and You can get a free seven day trial. Go check it out. [TS]

  You know see for yourself. You know we've all three of us have watched stuff on there. [TS]

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  These are not nicely produced professional video tutorials. L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. It is Linda dot com with a Y.. [TS]

  When the dot com slash A.T.P. Thanks a lot Linda for sponsorship. Once again pretty sure I've written more P.H.P. [TS]

  Than Casey that's possible but not necessarily true. [TS]

  When I work when Aaron and I got engaged I had a old Think Pad running some flavor of a burn to [TS]

  and I wrote our wedding website in P.H.P. [TS]

  and This was actually my first exposure to databases because I had always been writing client side apps [TS]

  and so I wrote a web site which allowed you to R.S.V.P. Online and I was extremely proud of myself that was all P.H.P. [TS]

  and I thought that went really well and still my friend who had an apostrophe in a surname went to register [TS]

  and all of a sudden everything took a took. [TS]

  Turn because I didn't properly escape everything but like I said it was my first experience [TS]

  and that was that one pretty well and that [TS]

  and I didn't we didn't have to use the knot in order to do that because I know everyone used to use the Not at that [TS]

  point and I didn't want to you when you really wanted to show Aaron right up front what she was getting into. [TS]

  Basically yes. Yeah and she stole your sense of that idea. [TS]

  You've done the right so anyway what are we talking about tonight. Marco's macro woes. Oh yes how could I forget. [TS]

  So that's fun. So what happened. I woke up to a computer that was showing signs of disk failure. [TS]

  Basically it had totally locked up like you could still move the mouse [TS]

  and everything you could still launch party to sort of invoke commands and you know click on stuff and move stuff [TS]

  but anything that would cause a disk access would just freeze whatever you were using [TS]

  and you know so I tried like I couldn't even like you know launch a console like I try to launch a console app to see [TS]

  if that was shown anything useful [TS]

  and I couldn't even do that because that would require reading from the desk so I thought oh crap my interest is dead [TS]

  and I rebooted and rebooted and rebooted and could never get past the gray spinner [TS]

  and verbose mode it would stop at the how do you pronounce the F.S.E. K. [TS]

  This command checking thing to spell it out fine anyway it wouldn't get paid. [TS]

  It was doing that and would never finish it. [TS]

  I give lots of time I I gave it an hour to feel like taking a lot of finish. [TS]

  No it wasn't it was just stuck and you know [TS]

  and I were sore from from a super duper clone which is by far the fastest recovery method. [TS]

  And so I did that it was fine and you know some find a backup now everything's fine. It seems. [TS]

  Oh and for whatever it's worth while it was in the unbearable state I booted from the clone [TS]

  and ran Disk Utility against the damaged disk. [TS]

  It appeared to have no errors if I did the whole repair verify everything reported nothing wrong. [TS]

  In conclusion it appears as though this is almost certainly a file system related problem and you know I don't know. [TS]

  Anyway this is boring but I had an issue that caused an of destruction to make the disk on bootable [TS]

  and it seems to have been related to the files a transition which was eight of us plus doing you know. [TS]

  That's again a verbal son of a snail. [TS]

  Yeah well I don't have one of those crazy soundboards I can buy on a regular had a button I love I get by on it is it [TS]

  how it's so good but I couldn't even tell you why it's just so good. [TS]

  It's it's so bad that it's so good and then I know what that's like. [TS]

  It's the show that it's it's like it's like no one the guy from office space like you know it's like you know the show [TS]

  got fired six years ago and no one told them. And their biggest keep going in every day. [TS]

  It's just this ongoing piece of performance art between two people who are very funny together [TS]

  and just have nothing to talk about because the show is like totally off the rails. [TS]

  Now it's so wonderful and it is it is comical it is such good humor [TS]

  and the funny part is you're sitting there listening thinking why am I still listen to this [TS]

  and they're sitting there perusing it saying why are we still producing this [TS]

  and yet it works I don't know why it works but it does work and it's hilarious and I really enjoy it. [TS]

  Agree I hope it didn't pay for that spot the other much a really selling. [TS]

  But why am i still listening to this as my garment. No nobody should be listening to it but I listen to it I love it. [TS]

  I completely agree with everything you just said it's so good I think they would I think they would agree with me I [TS]

  think they would say don't listen to it. [TS]

  Oh it's so wonderful because he really got it like the entire show like if you think back to work is a show of in jokes. [TS]

  You have no idea. Because by our Nick is one entire show made of nothing but in jokes. [TS]

  It's ridiculous and it's wonderful in every possible way. Yeah it is really quite good. [TS]

  Anyway I we are talking about that how do we even get there. Dang soundboards edge of us now right. [TS]

  OK Anyway so I put the link of the show to this article that a bazillion people have sent me on Twitter from this [TS]

  person complaining about eight of us plus because they had a bunch of photos [TS]

  and it was like something like fifteen thousand photos stored over six years and he grins [TS]

  and check sums to compare I guess he had a valid checksum someplace and compared it to the file star nature S. [TS]

  Plus and he lost twenty eight files over six years and these are images and some of them are some of these like J. [TS]

  Pegs with half loads on them alone and clearly this is what we're talking about. [TS]

  Rot you know that digital storage is not forever and errors will be introduced [TS]

  and at their interest in your images you may lose some [TS]

  or all of individual pictures like if the air is towards the end maybe you build the most of the picture of there in [TS]

  the middle either to the top of the picture maybe there's some clever thing they can recover those maybe the whole [TS]

  files Hosni just got a bunch of static or garbage [TS]

  but anyway that's a shame if that's the only copy of the picture you had [TS]

  and his article talks about a trust plus now it's all that how it's crappy influence over there a lot of people some [TS]

  you think going to talk about they trust us rightly respond guy has backed me up said bus was this crappy [TS]

  and I didn't respond to most people [TS]

  and I don't really tweet out the link to the article because this article is not really about Age of us plus being [TS]

  crappy. [TS]

  I already wrote a bit about each of us was incredibly in one of my reviews that is linked to in this article at the end [TS]

  in an addendum it's just what is crappy and it does corrupt itself [TS]

  and I'm not even sure that's what having the Marcos thing because he thought he said everything was OK so it's about us [TS]

  probably didn't corrupt and that it is structured probably does think it is keeping track of everything is something. [TS]

  That is sort of a separate issue where [TS]

  when data goes bad on disk the metadata keeping track of where that date is could be perfectly valid like address what [TS]

  has not corrupted itself and knows where all of your data is for everything or files that data itself is garbage [TS]

  and does not care what the content of that data just needs to keep track of it and remember where it is [TS]

  and how much is available free and how much is occupied and where each piece of individual files are [TS]

  and what are they going and does fail us plus does fail in many respects in doing that job [TS]

  and that is one of my complaints about each of us plus of the second complaint of a restless [TS]

  and all sort of file systems that predate the dawning of reliability of getting religion about reliability. [TS]

  They don't care what your date is either they just cross their fingers and hope the disk storage system is reliable [TS]

  and the FS was the first file system to the first popular file system to get serious about saying that we're going to [TS]

  take responsibility for keeping track of whether the stuff you wrote to disk is what is still there [TS]

  and it would do that would check sums not just check some of the metadata [TS]

  but also checksums on the data itself which is complication expensive and takes memory and has all these limits [TS]

  but the of us would be able to detect errors in the storage system. [TS]

  Sometimes there isn't the hard drive sometimes there is a disk [TS]

  and sometimes there are in the driver stack in the operating system no matter where the source of the error is the [TS]

  first thing was like and then data protection where if we write data and then later on go to read it [TS]

  and if what we read is not what we wrote originally we will tell you that there's a problem that doesn't save your data [TS]

  it's still garbage but then you can if you have the ability to detect when something went wrong. [TS]

  If you're using any form of redundant storage would you have us offered itself where you could store your data twice on [TS]

  disk or three times and disk you could use a multi disc scenario you could have backup so on and so forth. [TS]

  The key is having the files and let you know immediately. Oh this data is bad. [TS]

  Ah but I know I have another copy the state over there [TS]

  and I can tell of that date is good so I don't have to guess like all this one. [TS]

  There are there must be good I can also check out when that date is that let me write it back on top of this one. [TS]

  Let me you know you know sort of the self healing file system not knowing whether your data is bad like this person [TS]

  manual emitted by the checksums or whatever and then compare them. [TS]

  If you don't know your data is bad you won't find out that your data is hosed until that corrupt data is like spread to [TS]

  all of your backups it's been pushed to your cloud backup it's all it's you know your last three months worth of [TS]

  backups have long since been overwritten [TS]

  and all you have the corrupt data because you don't have your data going back to being a time all you have is multiple [TS]

  copies of your corrupt data [TS]

  and you all know that again until like you're trying to get pictures for some of high school graduation you want to [TS]

  baby picture and you realize the baby picture you wanted is corrupt. [TS]

  If you had a file system that had ended integrity the file system could notify that notify you of that immediately [TS]

  when it happened and could potentially repaired it from a good copy. [TS]

  So that's I think what this this article is really complaining about that or thousands are not like the FS [TS]

  and offer data integrity guarantees [TS]

  and not so much that it's crappy because it does it loses track of where your data is which does happen [TS]

  and people do tweet about that all the time but that's not really what this article is about. [TS]

  We're sponsored this week by back please. [TS]

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  Online backup and believe me that this is a great time to have them as a panzer because when my hard drive. [TS]

  When I thought my my Dr had died this morning and either way with regard to where I thought I had to wipe it [TS]

  and start fresh. I was never nervous that I'm going to lose data because I know that yes I have my time machine here. [TS]

  I also have my super duper clone here which is what gave me a very fast recovery today [TS]

  but I also knew that no matter what back lazy I have my data also [TS]

  and so there's always this other places always this back up for you. And actually I. [TS]

  The two founders I think they're the two founders I meant to hire people back please. [TS]

  Forty in here it's going they actually bought me an eleven dollar T. [TS]

  Which is very generous of them because nothing at Samovar Tea Lounge or whatever it is cheap. [TS]

  It was quite good though also quite large I don't know how anybody can you can T. [TS]

  That size of what they serve there like it was a twenty ounce pitcher of tea for one person anyway. [TS]

  So these guys are really sharp they know their stuff and they they're just nice people you can tell [TS]

  and use the product you can tell when you look at the website you can tell [TS]

  when you read their blog where they explain technical details of things like here's how we built these crazy storage [TS]

  positive always Hardress on you here's the plan here's what we do here's how we get drives that are cheap by driving [TS]

  all around the country and do increased over the rebates like they're just good people and they know their stuff. [TS]

  It was founded by X. [TS]

  Apple engineer for their software the mac is great they have all this new stuff they have e-mail [TS]

  or notifications you can get it you can get like I go report every couple of weeks saying hey this is what we have just [TS]

  so you know we have this much data blast that took the time doesn't even alert if they haven't heard from you computer [TS]

  in a while. [TS]

  So that way if you like if you like pause the backup when you do when you're recording a pod cast I mean [TS]

  and you forget unpause it they will send you an e-mail alert in a couple days saying hey by the way we haven't heard [TS]

  from you this is unusual you should probably know about this and fix it is fantastic. [TS]

  There's a fifteen day free trial with no credit card required you to enter an email and password [TS]

  and that's it you're off and this is really it's five dollars a month [TS]

  and that's it there's no add ons there's no gimmicks there's no like tacked on charges or fees or surcharges. [TS]

  Five dollars a month per computer for unlimited space and we I mean jeez we my wife has about three terabytes on hers. [TS]

  I have about a terabyte and a half on mine. My mom has a whole thirty eight gigs on hers. [TS]

  Obviously a big range here but you know this it doesn't matter. Same price five bucks a month. [TS]

  Easy they don't have to charge you more if you go to the three gig there are three terabyte limit like my wife it's [TS]

  it's fine it is the simplest I went back about in my in my experience also a fastest. [TS]

  Just so you know if you have a nice fast upstream. [TS]

  I've had very good experience of getting sucked back please very quickly. So going to back Blaze dot com slash A.T.V. [TS]

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  Don't look up what it used to be just goes back to leave dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Thank you very much to back please for sponsoring my show went to our show once again and for buying me T. Last week. [TS]

  OK So let's talk about metal [TS]

  and I did not mean the flavor of music so I am not at all qualified to talk about any three D. [TS]

  Programming anything because I've never really done it and Mark I don't believe you have either. [TS]

  That is not true now really I am slightly slightly a hair above completely unqualified excellent because I in college. [TS]

  I tried writing I tried writing a three D. [TS]

  Version of scorched earth and I tried it in like three different languages using at least two different graphics A.P.I. [TS]

  Direct X. First an Open G.L. and Something else using Open G.L. [TS]

  It was basically it was my way of fooling around with various threes other learning in college [TS]

  and then I used my most recent version of that as a demo to get myself my first job [TS]

  and I never was three programming again so I know enough very basics of three D. [TS]

  Programming as it stood in two thousand and three and two thousand [TS]

  and four so it's probably completely useless by today's standards [TS]

  and I would never consider myself a knowledgeable programmer at all however I at least know like the kinds of things [TS]

  that little graphic A.P.I. Is do right so John want to help me. [TS]

  Oh I think I know any more about it I mean I've done about the same amount of three Perris Marco alike demo apps on the [TS]

  S.G. [TS]

  I was in college you know where you just get something up on the screen [TS]

  and maybe move it around you're like Well that was really hard I'm not doing anymore because it's super hard to get [TS]

  anything impressive about the screen especially like that but I mean I really do. [TS]

  If you want to know about metal as an A.P.I. [TS]

  To start listening to debug and eventually guy English will say enough things. [TS]

  Because he actually is qualified to know and he's actually a real game programmer. [TS]

  So listen to what he says about metal and you'll you'll learn more about this summer as well as what's important [TS]

  and we're going to talk about it from business perspective but it's like Open G.L. and Open G.L. [TS]

  Yes is what Apple does using previously these are open standards that are in theory not controlled by any one company [TS]

  there's a consortium blah blah blah is a very old standard that evolved over the years [TS]

  when these standards were created the current crop of three D. Hardware current G.P. [TS]

  Use did not exist in this form and so the A.P.I. [TS]

  Even though it has evolved over the years has had to maintain backward compatibility. [TS]

  It is not well suited to current hardware not just in the particular details because a lot of those handled by driver [TS]

  but just in terms of the programming model like what do you do you you issue a series of function calls that set things [TS]

  up and then cause them to be drawn and like the the sequence of events that are presented through an open jail A.B.I. [TS]

  Have almost no bearing on what's actually happening with the hardware in terms of when does something happen [TS]

  when do command get sent to the G.P.U. when Does the things that are going to be drawn get sent to the G.P. [TS]

  Use memory how do things get written back how does that affect this a lot of that happens in the driver [TS]

  but this is another level of indirection So you're there like doing things step by step in your program [TS]

  and there's like this whole other program going on behind the scenes to manage that stuff to say all right [TS]

  when should I ship the stuff off to the G.P.U. So it's available in time. [TS]

  Oh wait the purpose read something back from the G.P. You actually have to stall and read back from the G.P.S. [TS]

  A preview to the G.P. It was two frames ahead of the C.P.U. [TS]

  But now to see if you want to read the data back so we have to wait for it to catch up and rethink our knives [TS]

  and there's latency between C.P.U. [TS]

  but If you if you don't accept a latency you might not be able to utilize in the G.P.U. [TS]

  and All sorts of details come from the mismatch between this relatively high level A.P.I. [TS]

  That does not acknowledge the existence of the G.P.U. [TS]

  In its current form and what's actually going on behind the scenes so that requires game programmers to do all. [TS]

  Sort of a boo do stuff with it like well I know if I do the sequence of events [TS]

  and do this little thing here it will force these things all the uploads of the G.P.U. [TS]

  and I know if I do this my shaders will be compiled [TS]

  and will be ready for me there's nothing with open the other is Open G.L. [TS]

  Shader language and that sort of a high level language whereas to be compiled for the individual G.P.U. [TS]

  and Whether that happens at the time your program runs [TS]

  or at the time it draws a frame where you want your you want your face to be precompiled and Direct X. [TS]

  Has this method with a pre-compiled I'm down to sort of a not byte code more compact form [TS]

  and then Apple's drivers had a use L V M for that document anyway it's it's extremely complicated world [TS]

  and what developers who do three D. [TS]

  Programming want to do is say this is way too complicated I can't keep track of all the different machines [TS]

  and you know the Rube Goldberg device that causes graphics to go off on the screen if you just gave me a programming [TS]

  model that was a closer match to the way things actually happen it would be a lot easier to get something that performs [TS]

  well I don't wide range of hardware. [TS]

  Metal is an interesting entry into that field because first of all metal right now only works on I.O.'s [TS]

  and only works on the A seven. [TS]

  So certainly it's not helping people deploy their you know write code that's going to work on a wide variety of [TS]

  platforms [TS]

  or wide variety of hardware going forward I'm sure they will expand support for it I'm sure it supports the gate now [TS]

  you know all that other good stuff and who knows little support in the future but for now is very narrowly constrained. [TS]

  But the programming model of metal does fit closer to the way things work. [TS]

  It shows you here's a command buffer that share your commands up bachelor things up ship them off to the G.P.U. [TS]

  In the correct order like we're exposing all these things that were previously happening the driver that were [TS]

  completely opaque to you. We expose them as objects and you have a programming language that lets you construct them. [TS]

  Package them up send them off you know and it's much cleaner than Open G.L. [TS]

  and It is a great fit for the way modern G.B. Use works today and the reason Apple thinks this is something. [TS]

  That's going to help people is not because they think people are going to write their programs [TS]

  and meddle in target only a seven device a greater [TS]

  but because the people who make the game engines which they had on the stage during the keynote that's why they had you [TS]

  know epic up there with their real engine [TS]

  and they showed unity in all the other game is out there that has names like I remember like the big four engine makers [TS]

  for three D. Engines that's almost game makers use writing a three D. Engine is super hard. [TS]

  Well if the engine middleware makers make a make sure their engines are able to run with metal [TS]

  when they're running on the A seven then anyone who develops a game on top of that engine gets the advantage of oh if [TS]

  you play my game on a seven I'll get better performance. [TS]

  So it's an interesting move by Apple to sort of try to get away from Open G.L. [TS]

  and Take control of their own destiny with a more modern A.P.I. [TS]

  and It's also interesting that they didn't choose to do it Microsoft did which is my guess I want to keep it open G.L. [TS]

  Years and years ago an image Direct X. Which learned from open jails mistakes and was more modern but is not that new. [TS]

  I mean metal as much and with an open jail of course A.M.D. [TS]

  Has mantle which is a similar type of thing to metal as far as I'm aware I have not read a lot about Mandel [TS]

  but a sort of a closer to the metal which the missing where Apple got its name mantle as a closer to the metal A.P.I. [TS]

  It's one of the few areas in computing where the A P I's are actually getting not so much a lower level [TS]

  but like exposing more of the foibles of the hardware rather than going the other direction rather than abstractly at [TS]

  all because Open G.L. Is more and more distant from the hardware then either mantle or metal or probably direct X. [TS]

  For that matter. So that's the situation with metal. [TS]

  That's what Apple is doing and [TS]

  when Apple announcement on the keynote I tweeted something to the effect of so is Double going to make a game console [TS]

  or what. They just made their own sort of low level game console a type three D. A.P.I. [TS]

  They've got a little box that you connect to a T.V. They've got controller support A.B.I. Built into Iowa. [TS]

  It's a room kids expecting them to offer some way to put apps on the Apple T.V. What's the deal here. [TS]

  Are they going to make one of they're not going to make one of the just going to dance around this until they have all [TS]

  the pieces of a dentist refuse or do I think I know I could do with books for years [TS]

  and years where they had all the pieces in place to be the world's dominant bookmaker [TS]

  and then just let Amazon do it because they couldn't be bothered. [TS]

  And this comes up because there was a strategic Post today that says Apple T.V. Might just how adult E.M.I. [TS]

  Disrupt Microsoft and Sony that talks about the same issue. Have you guys read this. [TS]

  Yeah I think it's interesting I mean it's different. [TS]

  You know one of the one of one of Ben's main arguments there is that the official you know high profile game consoles [TS]

  out there are these very like high end hot expensive devices [TS]

  and that you know that it is necessarily a kind of keeping them high end because there are these like these four [TS]

  hundred dollar boxes that you know kind of locks out casual gamers who are just not worth them spending four hundred [TS]

  bucks on on the Xbox. Meanwhile so many people are getting things like the Apple T.V. [TS]

  or Roku or the the new Amazon firey box whatever it is that the Marlins felt good anyway. [TS]

  So many people are getting these these you know little cheat boxes that can stream video or watch Netflix [TS]

  or whatever and [TS]

  and that that model of that market is probably very likely to disrupt the game market at some point soon. [TS]

  That's kind of the gist right. [TS]

  I mean basically I mean I think if you look at metal I mean metal is really interesting just because you know look it's [TS]

  a new a little A.P.I. [TS]

  That is a lot faster [TS]

  but it's worth asking why they made metal you know why did Apple put so much effort into something that is entirely [TS]

  about games because Apple historically has held. [TS]

  We were talking about this a couple of weeks ago how Apple just doesn't really seem to care about games. [TS]

  Obviously they do. We were at least partially wrong on that. I don't think it's entirely about games. [TS]

  Oh well because I mean think think about the games as one big aspect of it definitely. But the whole U.I. Uses Open G.L. [TS]

  and Viewed through the lens of I.O.'s metal sights look more like a battery saving feature where they can more [TS]

  efficiently use a G.P.U. [TS]

  With more precision exactly doling out the commands to it in the right order [TS]

  and having you know ten times faster draw call performance and all these things that benefits their make their U.I. [TS]

  Snappier and has a potential battery savings because you're spending less time flogging the G.P.U. [TS]

  To get your stuff done and their whole U.I. Is basically it's not a three D. Game but it's all open G.L. On an i O. S. [TS]

  And on the mac for that matter these days. [TS]

  So there is a platform benefit to it even if no game maker ever used I don't think they would have gone through the [TS]

  effort of no game maker used it [TS]

  and clearly game makers like metal because like all the big engines are saying yes we're going to support it [TS]

  and I don't think Apple had to twist their arms because this is what game makers want they want their games to go [TS]

  faster. They don't like fighting with Open G.L. [TS]

  Yes trying to figure out what weird incantations they have to do to get good performance [TS]

  and you know game makers want good battery life too they don't want people to play a game and have a destroyer. [TS]

  Your phone's battery that's there [TS]

  and I also I think it's very obvious that there are a number of major strategic benefits here like you know obviously [TS]

  you know a lot of people are saying oh well this will encourage people to write games only for I O. S. [TS]

  And I think that's a number of people who made that decision based on metal is probably very very small because most [TS]

  people aren't writing this little code I mean you know the people people are the engines. [TS]

  They're writing code at this level [TS]

  and they're possibly investing into making metal ports for their engines that will you know they're not going to stop [TS]

  making Open G.L. Versions. [TS]

  You know they're still going to like the big engines out there one licenses [TS]

  or uses they're still going to have Open G.L. [TS]

  Verse they can keep running on Android and everything else that's not going to stop doing that. [TS]

  But it will reinforce the pretty frequent idea that games while they might run on Android stuff they usually run better [TS]

  on I us and it's usually because most you know most interest if out there has a pretty wide range of G P U's and G.P.U. [TS]

  Power and some of the cheap Android stuff like some of the cheap Android tablets. Historically it had very weak G.P.U. [TS]

  Power compared to comparable I us devices partially at a cost partially out of other concerns who knows [TS]

  but for whatever reason Entergy views have historically sucked. [TS]

  And yes I know there are some devices that are good ones [TS]

  but I think the average is pretty bad for what's actually sold. [TS]

  And I think this is a way for us for Apple to keep that legal and for for a while longer. [TS]

  You know as the Android stuff gets better hardware [TS]

  and starts catching up I think this is this is a way to be able to keep that lead going [TS]

  but ultimately I think this does. [TS]

  They were very specific that this is for the A seven well and for the eight you assume I mean like obvious obviously. [TS]

  But yeah I mean it's a total Apple thing to do. [TS]

  What other company could even you know could feasibly do this because Apple has such a limited line [TS]

  and is so relentless about moving things forward and doesn't really care that this A.B.I. [TS]

  Doesn't apply to their old things. It's going to apply to all of their I.I.S. [TS]

  Devices from this time forward assessing the i Pod Touch the A seven in the future. Oh yes. [TS]

  Apatow if you just I think the fact that this is a seven only thirty seven [TS]

  and above only probably signifies that if Apple's going to enter the game market the way they're going to do it is by [TS]

  waiting until there's an eighty seven. The Apple T.V. and Then they are right. Hey now we have this thing. [TS]

  Start making games for it and I think I think we're waiting until that becomes economical [TS]

  and that's why we don't have an Apple T.V. S.T.K. Yet and that's why the Apple T.V. [TS]

  Hardware has done very little in the last few years that it has moved forward very little. [TS]

  I think they're just waiting for. [TS]

  That's until they can combine this thing you know keep the same price point a hundred bucks maybe even drop it by [TS]

  twenty thirty bucks would probably keep keep it one hundred bucks and eventually put an a seven in there [TS]

  and that heck that might be this fall. It would be a little aggressive but they could probably do it if they wanted to. [TS]

  I think is a very good chance of that happening and that happening soon. [TS]

  That might even be the big fall thing is hey you know you guys were all talking about wearables that nobody wants. [TS]

  We kind of made a game system that's going to kick butt in the market because going to sell a ton of them anyway [TS]

  and then you can start making games for using all of our existing infrastructure using metal [TS]

  and here's a new controller so the controlling doesn't suck [TS]

  and that's it I mean that that would be a pretty amazing fall like I said during the very seeking out Apple has all the [TS]

  pieces to make to make a run of this exact strategy and an expensive box with with pretty good three D. [TS]

  Performance they've got you know their own. They've got their own ship they have turned G.P.U. [TS]

  They got their own they've got now a low level console style A.P.I. For doing three D. [TS]

  In taking advantage of that hardware. They've got the you know the A.P.I. For controller support. [TS]

  All the pieces are there. [TS]

  Unfortunately all those pieces the technology pieces are not the hard part of being successful in the game console [TS]

  business. [TS]

  Just ask Microsoft getting the technology right is good but it's I don't think it's even necessary necessary [TS]

  but sufficient. [TS]

  I don't think it's even necessary to get the tech right that we use technology was disgusting [TS]

  and they were success so the hard part of being successful in the game market is how do you get how do you get people [TS]

  who spend money on games to buy your thing [TS]

  and the answer is I go they'll buy it because it's like you know it's a great T.V. [TS]

  Puck to watch Netflix on or whatever so they have they have and it's cheap so that will get people to buy things [TS]

  and then how do you get game developers to develop good games for your platform [TS]

  and just ask people how easy that is to do it is really really hard and probably cost. [TS]

  The tension the billions of dollars if you want to make a run at this market [TS]

  and get all those people who are currently buying sixty other games for the P.S. [TS]

  Force [TS]

  and we've talked about before the next generation councils announced the question was Is there still a place in the [TS]

  market for big expensive devices that play mostly or only games the answer is yes. [TS]

  People love the P S four it is selling pretty well certainly well enough to make Sony happy Michel's console so I'm [TS]

  pretty All's Well no I want to you because it's crappy. Maybe they're there you know. [TS]

  Three was this past week so maybe an intent was fortunate arise next year we don't know [TS]

  but this generation of consuls I would say is success and when this generation [TS]

  and the next generation last the same question again does anyone actually stupid four hundred dollar boxes the people [TS]

  want to visit us for a game that question will be asked again. This generation is true. [TS]

  If no one wants those boxes and there's no one out there none of people to sustain that. [TS]

  The potential for the entire gaming market to switch [TS]

  and I'm done dollar pocks I think most gamers would consider that kind of a bad situation [TS]

  and the questions are so few of those people it doesn't matter where they think they'll be said but oh well who cares. [TS]

  It's like the command line people being sad when the GUI came and took over everything [TS]

  and they just went play with Linux and no one cared about them anymore. [TS]

  I don't think that scenario is likely though even though these so-called core gamers [TS]

  and I hate that term because it makes no sense for the so-called core gamers even though they are not the majority. [TS]

  They sure as hell spend a lot of money. [TS]

  When when when a game has always been the chat room and a game like Grand Theft Auto five comes out [TS]

  and makes a whole Julian dollars. Casual gamers are not buying that right. [TS]

  Hardcore gamers are paying sixty dollars a pop for these games. They're doing it willingly. [TS]

  They're happy with the results and they pump a huge amount of money into the ecosystem [TS]

  and it's not like just a few wails like Candy Crush where most of the money is made off of these poor addicted small [TS]

  group of people and everyone else just kind of use that for a little while [TS]

  or everybody pay sixty dollars to a grand theft auto and those people still. [TS]

  And to do it [TS]

  and that I think is the business that that Apple would have a seriously hard time getting into because as we've [TS]

  discussed previously it doesn't seem like Apple's that into games if you're not that into games is no way you going to [TS]

  do what it takes to woo the good developers. [TS]

  But there had to have some of their own like parts I said hello and Sony's got it all it's own first party games [TS]

  and Mario and all ducking and all that stuff. I don't think Apple can be a player in that market. [TS]

  Well I don't think Apple wants to be a player in that market. [TS]

  Well that was the question I going [TS]

  and I said to Ben Thompson is like that's the things that they have are the tech going green to be a player in that [TS]

  market [TS]

  but it sure seems like Apple doesn't want to market why would you want to be part of what by all accounts is a declining [TS]

  market despite the fact that is clearly feasible now to make tons of money. [TS]

  Why would Apple one in a market is that a market is taking off like a rocket ship to the sun [TS]

  and is going to be super awesome for years to come from. Doesn't seem like it right now. [TS]

  So why would Apple be saying we really need to get in on this market we really need to make a device that's competitive [TS]

  with the P S five and the X. Box whatever the hell they're going to call it. [TS]

  I don't I don't see Apple thinking that that is a good thing to do regardless of whether they could do it. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but that wasn't that wasn't Ben's point though was it I thought pins point was more to grab the portion of the market [TS]

  that's more like Marco and I where we don't really take games too seriously but we do enjoy it [TS]

  and hey man if we've already got this Apple T.V. [TS]

  Box sitting of well I mean presumably a new one you know I just bought this Apple T.V. [TS]

  You know just to please games maybe I should give that a shot see if that's any good. And yes they may have this one. [TS]

  This world class OK that might be a stretch but they may have this really really great hardware [TS]

  and really really great tool chain. [TS]

  But that's kind of ancillary to the thought that here's a low cost box that makes for really easy consumption [TS]

  and I think that was more Ben's point. [TS]

  Yeah but the Apple already has that market it's called the i Phone you know if you look at look at what they used. [TS]

  Game consuls do and you look at the direction they are going they have all decided. [TS]

  Even even the previous generation and I mean not not the P S two but that you know but the P S three the X. [TS]

  Box three sixty [TS]

  and the we the first week they all started adding all these media center features ones like you know streaming Netflix [TS]

  became a thing and all the streaming videos like the you know that all happened in the last generation consuls [TS]

  and they all added these features and they also give in to that [TS]

  and they all with their current generation the new generation with the exception of the way you which didn't really do [TS]

  this kind of stuff but the other ones move much further towards looked at media center role [TS]

  and there's you know people who buy these things if you have very little interest in playing games you're probably not [TS]

  buying an X. Box One in the new X. [TS]

  Box wants to the name or the four you're probably not going to think that's worth it which is what that article says. [TS]

  But there's something really factoring has been in the chat room listened mangles article but it's our event [TS]

  but you know if you are if you are that into games you're not buying those things period like yours you're not maybe [TS]

  you know maybe maybe your kids want once you get a for your kids [TS]

  but you're probably as the parent you're probably not going to use that yourself very much if you can help it. [TS]

  There's this whole other market of people like me people who primarily want it for its media functions [TS]

  and if it can also play games great. But we weren't going out there and spending sixty bucks to buy G.T.A. [TS]

  Six like that was not us that was that was possibly never us it was definitely not us now [TS]

  and there's a lot of us like this [TS]

  and I think you know the I think the game console makers realize that their market is declining because they're trying [TS]

  to be these media boxes also they're trying to push in this direction. [TS]

  Apple already has a very successful little media box people buy and put it on their T.V.'s [TS]

  and Apple is going to approach it from the other way the same way you know the Amazon Fire box is doing it you know. [TS]

  Here is a mid powered cheap box that you can plug into your T.V. [TS]

  Here's a game controller for it and an app store you can spend three dollars to buy a game for it if you want to [TS]

  and it's not going to be you know a AAA awesome world class game with a fifty million dollar budget. [TS]

  It's going to be Flappy Bird three and you're going to like it and that's it [TS]

  and there's it's a totally different market adult if you add games the same way that the other console that a T.V. [TS]

  Features the i had it because it's right there you might as well do it you have the hardware available [TS]

  but people are not buying a Playstation so they can watch T.V. [TS]

  Shows [TS]

  and people are not going to buy the Apple thing to play games unless Apple get serious about games because well Apple [TS]

  will be competing with is the one thousand dollars box from Playstation which they've had for a while in Europe [TS]

  and they just they renamed and their interest in the U.S.'s Playstation T.V. [TS]

  Why would you buy the ninety nine dollars box and Play Station that streams Netflix [TS]

  and does whatever the hell they're going to do. You know like does all the same things that the little T.V. [TS]

  Connected parks do. [TS]

  Why would you buy the Playstation one and not the Amazon one why would you buy the Amazon not the apple [TS]

  and will if you care anything about games of course are going to buy the Playstation one because like they have that [TS]

  thing where I can play the old old P S three games I was a streaming service a place to be to games natively. [TS]

  Like it's always going to have the better games but if you don't care about games you'll buy the Amazon Fire T.V. [TS]

  Implant rebirth or you buy the Apple one [TS]

  and play whatever I.O.'s game support to it like that bifurcation in the market already exists [TS]

  and everyone thought like the i O. S. [TS]

  Apps or was going to totally disrupt the gaming space [TS]

  and in many respects it did in terms of what kinds of games most people play [TS]

  but it didn't it didn't disrupt to the degree that the home console business became an viable [TS]

  and so if that split just continues on the television I think that you'll still end up with the same scenario where you [TS]

  have the core gamer market and the casual gamer market [TS]

  and I don't think anyone will buy the Apple park to play games on the Playstation Pocock this or the Microsoft park [TS]

  or whatever you know it's going to be the same thing in the park or is on a T.V. Where it's just. [TS]

  Which one you want depends on what you care about more the way you win in the game space is not having attack not [TS]

  having the A.P.I. [TS]

  Is not having the price point you got to have the games [TS]

  and Apple has certain kinds of games that they have locked up like you know the Iowa style games they have them first [TS]

  they have the best they run the best there [TS]

  but they don't have the kinds of games that people tend to sit in front of a T.V. [TS]

  and Play [TS]

  and I'm not sure that the casual type of games that Apple is dominant on if ported to the television if that type of [TS]

  thing that people sit in front of T.V. [TS]

  and Play on a couch I think want to sit on a couch and are going to play games in that context. [TS]

  They would prefer to get the Playstation park for a similar price and play those games. [TS]

  You're coming at this all wrong because you're coming at this from the perspective of a gamer [TS]

  and I don't think that's what that's what Ben is trying to portray he's trying to say it's a more opportunistic [TS]

  attention grab based on the fact that Mark and I both have these brand new Apple T.V.'s [TS]

  and you know what I wouldn't mind playing a OK game every once in a while I don't give a crap about Grand Theft Auto [TS]

  or Call of Duty or any or what have you I just want to occasionally sit down and blow some crap up [TS]

  and for that this phantom Apple T.V. Is perfect. [TS]

  We're going to make our buying decisions not not based on which of these pucks has the games you want. [TS]

  We're going to make it this and other factors like if we if we use if we have Amazon Prime and this fire T.V. [TS]

  Is really cheap [TS]

  and comes of this this video streaming service that we're already paying for a crime that well my look at that if we if [TS]

  we if we buy a lot of stuff on i Tunes if we buy a lot of movies and T.V. [TS]

  Shows on i Tunes We're going to buy the Apple T.V. [TS]

  Part because the police can put the videos [TS]

  and so it's like if we're going to buy a puck anyway you know it's you know if we only want to have one if we only can [TS]

  afford one then the other factors that go into these various media ecosystems that these things are made to play are [TS]

  going to play a big role in that decision. [TS]

  And so you're going to have Amazon customer of mine Amazon one an i Tunes customers buying the Apple one well that's [TS]

  what I said before that like if you're if you're choosing based on games you're going to do something longer if you're [TS]

  not using both. [TS]

  Again he'll choose the Amazon more of the Avalon [TS]

  but the whole the premises article is how Apple might disrupt Microsoft and Sony and it's not disrupting Microsoft [TS]

  and Sony if people are not changing their purchase decisions if you're going to always buy Apple T.V. [TS]

  and How games are as a bonus you are not you know disrupting Microsoft [TS]

  or Sony unless you are previously going to buy a P.S. [TS]

  Five or an X.-Box whatever [TS]

  and you decide you know what instead I'm going to buy the Apple thing because that's good enough [TS]

  or I'm going to buy the Sony part because that's good enough to disrupt the market you have that you have to basically [TS]

  take your low end thing and buy that instead of the high end thing and you have to eat your way up the chain. [TS]

  And I'm saying eating away at the chain at a certain point you cannot eat up any higher because you just don't have the [TS]

  games and it's not a thing. [TS]

  Apple could not do this I'm saying the hard part is not the technology the hard part is getting the games to consume in [TS]

  the higher end [TS]

  and again people thought this is going to happen in the mobile game space like oh you think these mobile games are [TS]

  crappy in casual but soon they're going to just destroy the entire market [TS]

  and no one's going to be able to like a low end disruption to these games using an Uber is a stupid [TS]

  and I want to play that and candy crush is dumb [TS]

  but you just wait in five years there won't even be a high end market because low in disruption will destroy them. [TS]

  That has not yet happened. It doesn't seem like it's happening. [TS]

  I think you cannot you cannot disrupt the big players in the game market without having really good games [TS]

  and I don't think it doesn't mean they have to be as high tech [TS]

  or whatever you just have to have the really good games [TS]

  and thus far Apple has not shown that it's willing to do what it takes to get the really good games to stop people who [TS]

  think you know what I was going to buy but I don't need anymore. All my gaming needs are now met by this Apple device. [TS]

  I get your point your point is correct that Apple will not take over the high end but I think I think you know Apple [TS]

  or boxes like this if Amazon you know continues their effort of actually succeeding games I think the big risk here is [TS]

  not that these media companies are going to take over the high end of gaming it's that they're going to be good enough. [TS]

  And with such a massive price advantage I mean you see this all the time this is classic disruption was saying that [TS]

  there would be no more INS lowness ruction there is. [TS]

  Not that the hind is not viable the No one can be I [TS]

  and they don't have to take over land they are known to be dying it is not viable but that's what I'm saying. [TS]

  If this is going to happen I would think we'd be seeing it happen already. [TS]

  Like that there is no more room for I and games are not a thing. [TS]

  Apple doesn't have to get those customers they just have to starve the companies that make them to death [TS]

  and say you can keep trying to do that but we're going to make your business on viable [TS]

  and then we're all that's left in the end [TS]

  and I don't think that can happen because I think enough people want really good games the kind of which Apple has has [TS]

  thus far shown it is not willing or able to get made for its platform. Me anyway. [TS]

  I think one thing Apple has going for it is that in the realm of T.V. Connected parks. Apple has a good store. [TS]

  Amazon has a pretty good store in the game console makers are not that great about having a nice convenient app stores [TS]

  that regular people can use that don't suck or don't have your credit card stolen from them. [TS]

  Speaking of Sony Microsoft may be doing a little bit better. [TS]

  The one advantage all the Apple has is they have experience in selling you three are things like trying to clean [TS]

  and people are familiar with their stores [TS]

  and if they can leverage their I.O.'s advantage that you can sell you buy it here and you can play it on your T.V. [TS]

  As well [TS]

  and all these other things like that that is an advantage they have in the gaming space for for casual gaming [TS]

  but the way I see it playing out unless something changes seriously is that your T.V. [TS]

  Will become just like every other part of the current market where there's a split between the people who want to be [TS]

  expensive thing by sixty dollars games and the people who want everything else [TS]

  and the ratios I imagine would be similar there [TS]

  and I do think it's a declining market I think the people who want to go to games is declining. [TS]

  It's just not declining so Persepolis Lee that I'm going to say that Apple or Microsoft [TS]

  or Sony for that matter are poised to disrupt the high end gaming market by making it on viable Sony clearly is hedging [TS]

  its bets with its little T.V. Puck thing saying well if it's going to happen we should do it to us. [TS]

  Both and they'll sell this park [TS]

  and I'll see how it felt in respect to catch on I'm just on the I was no problem redirecting their attention in the [TS]

  next generation to puck like devices. I don't know if my just playing the have a puck but it wouldn't surprise me. [TS]

  So everyone is kind of hedging their bets but I think the success of P.S. or X. [TS]

  Box One of making people say all right we've got one more generation breathing room US are planning our next gen [TS]

  and see see how things shake out. So thanks a lot two or three sponsors this week. [TS]

  Automatic Lynda dot com and back please and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now it was accidental accidental John and you are now sitting on the current perpetrator. [TS]

  Access to that list that we have a special guest tonight. [TS]

  It is my wonderful wife tiffs [TS]

  and because this actually did my homework for me to have has played journey after years of listening to John tell us [TS]

  about journey and why we should all be playing journey. [TS]

  Tiff actually played it because John discovered while talking to the B.B.C. This week. [TS]

  That she is a gamer and I have apparently hidden this fact from all of you guys until this point but she is a gamer. [TS]

  Sometimes And she's actually better than me at that I was ever you know we both played [TS]

  and Anyway so she did my homework for me. And here she is. How do you what's going on. [TS]

  Lay it on me to let me know before you do anything. [TS]

  If I hypothetically did eventually want to play this game is this going to spoil everything. [TS]

  Yeah you should probably leave and neither should mark that he watch you play. [TS]

  He was being planned that he knows it's going to be never going to play and he's so terrible. [TS]

  Yeah I'm never going to play either. I don't have a Play Stations on the way. [TS]

  Casey you should you should not listen I'm telling you you should go away and come come back later. [TS]

  You know where's that big like spoiler valve. [TS]

  Do you really want me to not was because of the likelihood of the parlour Bell Jason Felch crying somewhere where the [TS]

  horn is [TS]

  and tell you what do you really want to go away because yes you should to be you know you played on your value could [TS]

  potentially play this I think you should go and come back. [TS]

  Well just to be clear the likelihood I cannot play this game until somebody you'll be able to play it on your mind [TS]

  and other places and talking about a year or so right now I'm going to take my headphones off [TS]

  and just watch the chat room and everything for me this is going to be done [TS]

  but we need those job Zinga taking my headphones off by its a gun yes or safe. OK so where should I start. [TS]

  I guess at the beginning I've done all my homework I play the game now four times and I listen to the incomparable [TS]

  and I read your article so homework done so you tweeted after you played with in a mode not a mode you conversant [TS]

  enough to know what you meant by that emoji [TS]

  but it was like the biting down teeth kind of like what it made it seem like is that you did not like this game [TS]

  when you first played it well the first time I played it without anything just sitting down playing it knowing nothing [TS]

  I didn't like it. So so explain that. [TS]

  Well I thought first of all so spoiler bow I thought like the people who I was with were a I so I was like This is just [TS]

  stupid this person just walking around with me I'm just doubled. [TS]

  And then I felt like it was a game that I got siphoned through so that is super interesting because that's why I don't [TS]

  want people to know. [TS]

  Like I told Marco to make sure that the Playstation was connected to the network [TS]

  but not to tell you that it was a net or game because I don't want people to know that people are real people [TS]

  and it's interesting to see some people play the game [TS]

  and immediately realize those are other people some people play the entire game [TS]

  or just assume their AI the entire game. [TS]

  Right and that's what I see [TS]

  and then because there's really no like the challenge you just kind of like Who's through this world [TS]

  and you do some things and you know certain things will attack you but there are no real cause no consequences for it. [TS]

  So I was just like it's just boring. [TS]

  Here's what I was hoping I was hoping that as a gamer you would realize [TS]

  when the people are interacting with you that they couldn't possibly be because they exhibit behaviors [TS]

  and no way I could possibly exhibit. [TS]

  Well maybe like the people that I played with were just kind of like helping me like jump [TS]

  and walking around with me they weren't doing anything extraordinary. [TS]

  But after I listened to the incomparable and then realized that they were real people [TS]

  and then I started getting into like everything that you guys were talking about on that episode about why it was a [TS]

  beautiful game and why it was good and why it was fun [TS]

  and the whole article that you wrote about people being nice to each other and all that. [TS]

  That made me want to play the game again. [TS]

  So [TS]

  when I played it the second time I really felt like I got it you know I was also playing with someone who was like showing [TS]

  me where things were so I can get my scarf really long so that was fun so I was like following him around [TS]

  and so I felt like that was I guess more of the right way to play the game. [TS]

  Yeah you only get one chance to play for the first time which is kind of a bummer [TS]

  and I guess that I think I set an example I feel lucky that my first play through was so perfect in the way that it was [TS]

  the other thing I was hoping. [TS]

  As a gamer who like plays things on hard mode was that you wouldn't that you wouldn't to like realize that there are no [TS]

  consequences for failure because you wouldn't fail like that you wouldn't be attacked by those things [TS]

  and have your scarf being eaten [TS]

  and realize oh in the matter HOW MANY TIMES attack I never died just my soffit scarf get shorter until a certain point [TS]

  I don't actually die at is an incomparable great thing about the game is it doesn't tell you what the consequences are [TS]

  so you don't you don't have a health meter you don't know what it takes for you to die or if you can diet also. [TS]

  So if you're in a particular mind that you might be like I don't know what's going to happen. [TS]

  I have nothing to fall back on I can't look at my number of hearts up on the screen [TS]

  and know that I'm OK if I get hit once for all I know it's a single hit death [TS]

  and I don't want to die because I'm in the middle of this experience with this other person [TS]

  or even defining what kind of gamer you are even if you assume it's an AI [TS]

  and the type of person who could find themselves getting attached to an AI like if there was just a really good AI in [TS]

  the game and I felt like protective of it or attached to it as a companion I would be sad if it died [TS]

  or the like in my journey experience [TS]

  when I was playing with that person even though I realize the person I would feel like they let them down. [TS]

  But like when you're hiding in those little and the little pieces in the snowy part and someone pokes out [TS]

  and I go now you're both screwed because you made a mistake [TS]

  and I just felt terrible that I did that person it was like attention for the rest of the game that I had let this [TS]

  person down you know. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I totally get that and I specially felt that the second time through like I was really upset [TS]

  when I lost my my companion the second time I played it because he was helping me do all this stuff [TS]

  and we got separated. [TS]

  Averaged you know on par with the Dragon [TS]

  and I was really upset I was like waiting for the mikes to give my little song in the dark like at the end like waiting [TS]

  and he wasn't showing up [TS]

  and then I ended up in a second the next level with some like little tiny short scarf new black jumping up [TS]

  and down like yesterday and he was like singing and yelling and jumping [TS]

  and I'm like I can't help you I don't know what I'm doing so I did left him in the dust and I kept on going [TS]

  and then my long scar friends showed up again and so I like Joyce and longs to gather and so that was really great. [TS]

  And but that was again my second experience when I knew it was a real person. [TS]

  And then but the first time I played through right at the end the [TS]

  when you're going up the tower the snow tower my like a little buddy who I was with who I thought was an AI like froze [TS]

  to death he just like sat down and was like shivering and not moving and I was like singing at him [TS]

  and nothing was happening so I just went on alone and [TS]

  when I was the first time I thought like OK so I had a companion through the middle of the game I didn't have one in [TS]

  the beginning and then he kind of like froze to death at the end. [TS]

  But so I'd like do that [TS]

  and alone I'm like OK I guess this is just the time that I don't have a double of me that I go up with so it was [TS]

  definitely the first time around wasn't as fun as the second time. [TS]

  What I told my wife when she was asking so that I thought you didn't like the game [TS]

  and she was asking why I said My theory was that since you are a gamer that I didn't know that you had that you thought [TS]

  it was [TS]

  and I the whole time of this fits is that if you feel like you're playing a game the whole time you're playing this [TS]

  game [TS]

  and this would hurt for somebody who plays games on hard because you want like a challenge like if you were always in [TS]

  the headspace of I am playing a game it's kind of like if you watch a movie [TS]

  and you're always in the headspace of I'm watching a movie the movies they get you. [TS]

  You forget you're watching a movie and you feel like you're experiencing what you're experiencing [TS]

  and if your journey relies entirely on that happening because not every game does like if you're playing a first person [TS]

  shooter and super hard mode you can feel like you're playing a game the whole time it's totally satisfying. [TS]

  So you have to be engaged. [TS]

  I mean the thing about Journey was I felt like [TS]

  when sometimes you're going through like some of the areas I felt like I could just let go of my controller [TS]

  and it would just go there for me you know like I was just being funneled through the game. [TS]

  Well yeah like it is you can't you can't feel like you're playing a game like this yes if you think about it for two [TS]

  seconds you realize all the sections on rails like and like oh [TS]

  but it's like you know you can't you can't think that way you have to you have to think I am here this is happening to [TS]

  me and why whatever one of the sections where you're sort of surfing down the hill [TS]

  and stuff the reason I found those those levels so amazing is because like early in the game you. [TS]

  Well as you can slide and it's just it's just like there's no point there. [TS]

  There's no you're not you don't get extra points for going through the little stanchions you know the little gate that [TS]

  you go [TS]

  but that's not there like oh you have to do that you have your bonus No it's all about just having fun you had to feel [TS]

  like you're there and enjoying the little sort of a dolphin things diving through the sand and going the why. [TS]

  Because do you get some reward when you jump on their heads. [TS]

  No you jump ahead because it's fun and you really have to just feel like you're there [TS]

  and if the entire time you feel like you're playing a game then it's like well this game is not challenging this game [TS]

  is not interesting this game doesn't offer me anything doesn't offer me extra power up extra weapons all the things [TS]

  that you would you know in a game in a game where you can be OK if you like to play a game you have to not feel like [TS]

  you're playing a game for this and feel like you have an experience [TS]

  and realizing there are other people probably helps you with that because then it's like oh I'm not playing a game in [TS]

  the same way. [TS]

  Suddenly you feel like you know people like texting walking down the street [TS]

  and the expressions on their face are you know angry [TS]

  or joyful Oh yeah yeah yeah they're holy they're going through all the emotions of what's happening [TS]

  but nothing's happening to them really. [TS]

  And what they're using is an app that has a text box and a bunch of little text box over and over. [TS]

  But their experience is like oh no no they're connected to the person on the other end of this like end journey does [TS]

  that was a give away better graphics than the messages app on i OS right [TS]

  and it can elicit the same type of emotions because like I said an article they shave they shave off every possible way [TS]

  that person can be a jerk to you and all that's left is the good and in general people are good to each other [TS]

  and here they try to be a jerk it just comes off as like you know craziness [TS]

  or disinterest like they can't do anything to harm you. [TS]

  So it's like a relentlessly positive experience with that with that whole argument so that's exactly why I disagree [TS]

  with you that [TS]

  when you first play the game that someone should know that you're playing with other people because the game was [TS]

  infinitely more enjoyable for me when I realize that it was just another person with me [TS]

  and said of just an AI And so I didn't enjoy the game and I thought it was a I but I love the game. [TS]

  After I found out it was a real person and now I've gone back twice now [TS]

  and played it once I played under Marcuse name and I had to go get my own. [TS]

  Same thing at my own scarf stuff [TS]

  and I didn't have a tumbler more what was it in the paper mark like you played with Instapaper market like no you're [TS]

  going to have are that whoever I am I don't know. [TS]

  But like that's you know that that whole experience of with other people made it so much better [TS]

  and I would have never played the game again if it was anything like the first time I played it I was hoping that you [TS]

  would not know. [TS]

  Think there are a I initially but fun [TS]

  but figured out at like five minutes because that realisation that it's another person is a fun realisation. [TS]

  You know again if you don't like that that's the common experiences if they don't know it's actually think it is AI [TS]

  but then figure out that it's not the it's kind of like the reverse Blair Witch Project. [TS]

  Like if you see the movie and then you think it's real it's great the first time you see it [TS]

  and then you realize it's not real and it sucks. It's the worst movie ever. So journey is reversed. [TS]

  Blair Witch Project. [TS]

  Yeah people do go back and play journey I mean do you have your white robes yet are you on the path to get there. [TS]

  Well no because now I got cheated out of it out of an entire play through because I played on Marco's account [TS]

  and so then I had to create my own account [TS]

  and so I only have to play through the mind although I found like this crazy shortcut where you can jump to any level [TS]

  and I accidently did that tonight novice and I skipped half the game [TS]

  and I was like what on earth the hub the hub level if you want to get the white run the white robe is the one thing [TS]

  that is game like in this in a storyboard multiple play through as you don't have to play a certain number of times [TS]

  or there is something that happens as you play a multiple number of times [TS]

  but you can play if you want to have the white robe Well your robe gets all like in much more intricate on the bottom [TS]

  so right now I have like a whole bunch of intricate orange bits. [TS]

  Yeah that keeps going until it reaches like it fills up entirely [TS]

  but the white robe is not dependent on that filling up you could fill up the entire thing [TS]

  and still I have a white robe and you could do one play through and at the way [TS]

  or oh yeah i still gotta find all the little symbols everywhere because yeah I think I could do much better [TS]

  and there's not much you know the stuff the only collectible in the game of little symbols [TS]

  and like I said the article Like where. [TS]

  You get the symbol you're playing with someone else they get it too you don't steal from them. [TS]

  Oh yeah yeah I think that that's great because then you can do that with the one for the second time I played through [TS]

  the person was showing me where everything was and helping me get them so we like both had the same length scarf [TS]

  and that was just fantastic interest [TS]

  and I found like a little new person I was like Come with me I know where these things are [TS]

  and then once you once you have those long scarves like [TS]

  when you get into the levels that have danger then it's like I mean even though the stakes are like like you know you [TS]

  can't you don't want to lose your scarf [TS]

  and you don't want your New You want to protect your new person of the someone new with you [TS]

  or if you have a long scarf yourself you like look I worked for the earlier part of this game to get this I don't want [TS]

  to be taken from and then yeah so what do you think of the ending part where you are in the snow [TS]

  and going up the mountain and everything [TS]

  and how that answers that all I've done I was like I don't know I thought I failed the first time I played I was I was [TS]

  alone and it was cold and windy [TS]

  and my you know I like that's it it's over I need to do something again I need to go back and do it again [TS]

  but then you know I started flying and I'm such a bad sometimes and you know [TS]

  when you go up after you die in the snow and or whatever happens to you in the snow [TS]

  and you go up to the mountain like Earth that's right into the side of the mountain of not going to the mountain of [TS]

  jumping Oh it was horrible I'm like This is supposed to be my moment numb like caught underneath the mountain. [TS]

  So the for the story part of the game where you are you on board with that where you're paying attention to the cut [TS]

  scenes in the first or second play through and like the decipher in the story [TS]

  and then you know connecting it to the ending. [TS]

  Oh yeah definitely and like how all the little markers are all really graves and you know all this stuff [TS]

  and I like how just like we talked about the uncovered well where you know [TS]

  when you have a companion with you it shows it on the wall that there's someone else with you [TS]

  or you're alone in certain parts [TS]

  and yeah I thought it was I thought it was a really nice story that it was simple it was uplifting you know like it. [TS]

  It moved you along and I liked it a lot. Yeah. [TS]

  For my one pleasure that you know you only have one chance to make the first play there I'm so happy that I happened to [TS]

  that I played a lot in the beginning. [TS]

  We get the feel of the game [TS]

  and then found someone that had a sort of experience with them in which I disappointed him [TS]

  but that we did end up going through the light together in the end you know [TS]

  or like you get up to that final sort of snowy part where it's quiet and your scarf is gone [TS]

  and the light is right there the thing you've been trying to get for the whole time I was that you had someone going [TS]

  with you. [TS]

  I'd like you know waiting at the time I waited at the top the last game [TS]

  and that's a thing waiting it waiting at the top you're like is that person going to come. [TS]

  Nobody showed up I was like like you know and no one's coming because I keep crashing into the mountain [TS]

  when I get up there so I'm always behind. [TS]

  Yeah I've waited I would at the top several times for people sometimes I shop sometimes it up at the first time we kind [TS]

  of like I mean the first time you know you don't know what's going to happen on a snowy thing [TS]

  and I was with the person going up a snowy thing we both pitch over into the snow I thought like you. [TS]

  That's the end of the game because like you know I mean if you saw the ending of The Sopranos with all sorts of you [TS]

  know and so and that like that's one way it could end [TS]

  but that wasn't the end like you know you were in you you end up in that in that other place. [TS]

  And for me it was with that of the person [TS]

  and we sort of like swoop to the top of that mountain together joyously not crashing to the side of the mountain while [TS]

  Yeah like because I live in you and you were saying no this is your freedom and you get to play around [TS]

  and I'm there like crash into the side of the mountain stuck underneath like this snowy bank [TS]

  and I'm I'm walking I'm like this is over that everyone else is flying is like happy music [TS]

  and the scars are everywhere in the little like the friendly little carpet dogs are like you know [TS]

  when everything's happening I'm like under that mountain of like what kind of a hell game or am I just terrible. [TS]

  The carpet dogs like I was called in dolphins [TS]

  but if you have hops around I think you know the carpet are still loyal and they come by is this [TS]

  and that's one of the snow off it kills me that they had a thing called a little and you can't take it with you. [TS]

  Yeah terrible. [TS]

  So I'm sad that your first play through wasn't everything that it could be [TS]

  but like you can't control like if I wanted it to be so much because you're like it's going to be so good [TS]

  and you know I had all these. [TS]

  Patients really don't like this game it's just kind of like a funnel game as they call them they just want to let go of [TS]

  the control or let it happen to you [TS]

  and you're like this is you need to be engaged to not like you need to not be thinking that's a possibility because [TS]

  there is no control over to Munich a troll you're walking through a desert there's no controller like you need to get [TS]

  into that headspace. [TS]

  Yeah I appreciate it but I'm glad you haven't [TS]

  and that's why I said like an episode of a pedophile in our past A.D.P.s was a journey would be wasted on Marco [TS]

  or something like that. [TS]

  Hell yeah he would just be like this is why did I just do this he's like he would be like why did I just play this game. [TS]

  Because he would never get into that headspace like it like you know you're getting into runs I can play there's no [TS]

  you're having like the actual experience of the game or whatever you have to you have to be there in the game [TS]

  and you have to like be absorbed in the story and be appreciative of a pretty desert [TS]

  and a cute little frozen cloth thing and the scary dragons and like if you're never going to get into that space [TS]

  and you're always just think I'm sitting on a couch holding a controller. You'll never enjoy the game. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and you know honestly that I would have been I would have just stopped right there if it were my first play through [TS]

  and that's what it meant but I did all my homework. [TS]

  I listened to the income book I read your article [TS]

  and that that sucked me back in so I really do like the game so what are we going next time. [TS]

  Yeah I was super sad [TS]

  when I read it seem like you didn't like it isn't like oh all these other recommendations I had heard now I'm not even [TS]

  going to give them because if she didn't like if you didn't like Journey it's clear it's clear our taste in games [TS]

  differs not like you know some people don't like the same type of games [TS]

  and you're unlike Marco it's totally clear that you're gamer but maybe just like the same type of games that I do [TS]

  or you know like if you going to recommend a movie to someone you met I recommend like a Fellini movie [TS]

  and they hate it is like well you know we like different kinds of movies it's not necessarily a bad movie [TS]

  but if you came around [TS]

  and journey I can continue your list of games that you can play I think I can be I can be very open minded with most [TS]

  games like I just and I just finished limbo because now I'm all in a gaming mood [TS]

  and then I can go like you know to the shoot em up Halo Half-Life kind of stuff again so I'm pretty versatile. [TS]

  So what are you in the mood for you in the mood for a game that is more kind of like not. [TS]

  Who hard not to challenging all about atmosphere and relationships will definitely do you think a play during nap time. [TS]

  That's because two ways to go [TS]

  and it's like my traditional thing is if you have a Play Station three you need to play ego shall the Colossus [TS]

  and journey and the Last of Us and The Last of Us is the most traditional game straight up. [TS]

  AAA game with shooting things and zombies and all over the new thing of [TS]

  but it's like a very well done one of those games that is one of the few as I used to like [TS]

  and like that so that if you're in the mood for that type of game that is the one to get it will satisfy you on all the [TS]

  levels that those type of games satisfy people if you're into that. Yeah that sounds good. [TS]

  Someone write that down [TS]

  and then if if you get through that maybe you will have like had enough junk food that you'll be in the mood for ego [TS]

  and shout across a shot of the classes [TS]

  and I already played a Walking Dead chat room you didn't the best No no no not walking dead now now the other keys on [TS]

  the one. [TS]

  Yeah I recommend it I recommend walking dead you play if I don't I feed to see what your taste is like more so we said [TS]

  we've got one end of the spectrum a journey the last of us is pretty much on the other end of the spectrum it's not I [TS]

  guess the Grand Theft Auto be the other end of the spectrum but now I know I played that one too. [TS]

  So the Last of Us is more serious you'll see that all my games are like put this way. I like one hour dramas on T.V. [TS]

  The games I recommend are old games you'd see recommended by someone who watches one hour dramas on T.V. [TS]

  Well that's pretty much what we want so I think that would totally work. [TS]

  Although I did watch the like a preview gameplay I go ego Hansie. [TS]

  Yeah it was very like they'll be right though the asking it's nothing like the gameplay hasn't it looked like it looks [TS]

  like it [TS]

  but it is it is like Journey in that you have to be there otherwise you feel like this game is not hard there are there [TS]

  are no exciting power ups there's no level meter on not leveling this like all those things that you can put you have [TS]

  exactly the same complaints about ego [TS]

  but I think it's like journey before a journey it was my like my go to like games as art place. [TS]

  Three That game is considerably longer than journeys like eleven hours is a little bit harder in terms of puzzles [TS]

  and if you have a low tolerance for puzzles you might find it frustrating or annoying but I really love it. [TS]

  And then shall the Colossus is like an in-between stage. [TS]

  So Cross is actually pretty darn hard [TS]

  and to the point where I'm not sure that you would actually finish the game because you feel like you know what I've [TS]

  seen of the timing of the challenge I see with this game has to offer. [TS]

  I see how it's going to go and I don't want to grind through it. [TS]

  Especially if you hate the Playstation intro like I hate it. [TS]

  Yeah it's not the best controller you know but it has the same mood as you go it's from the same developer [TS]

  and it's sort of all of a piece. [TS]

  So so I would say go to Last of Us next because that is very straight ahead I think one of the best games for the Play [TS]

  Station three for people like original games [TS]

  and if you make it through that that should be like sixteen twenty hour something like that. [TS]

  Then build bridges at the artier games. [TS]

  Excellent Well I don't think taking two to three hour nap so that plus some evenings I think I can plaster healthy That [TS]

  sounds great it will have you back on to here. [TS]

  Marco has his he's just a lost cause like maybe Marco complained last honest with you [TS]

  or watch you play because he's a spasm. [TS]

  When I was well he like walked by while he's getting coffee [TS]

  and Mike will check out my video game really good to hear then you make some like snide remark about it [TS]

  and be like Did you know. Yeah exactly. He'll put on the face and you'll disappear to the world and that'll be it. [TS]

  He's missing out on a ride for Casey is out there how do we get him back. [TS]

  I tell him to come back and I do my go back to thanks for talking to me about June. [TS]

  Sure any time any time you want to kick Margraf show you can come back here that you're out. [TS]

  Ivan now I have by done by death right now. Yeah as we said it every day. [TS]

  What we learned is that in the Marco tiff marriage you have Marco is my wife and TIFF is me pretty much. [TS]

  Through just going to clip the sound clip of using Marco is my life. That's all we need. [TS]