The Accidental Tech Podcast

57: Smorgasbord of Pronunciation


  So do we have any topics tonight. [TS]

  Not really we have a little bit of follow up [TS]

  and then honestly I have no clue what the Russian show's going to bring So it's going to be a little wild lacky wild [TS]

  case. See what happened there. [TS]

  So we should probably do some follow up starting with Computer Science John I have this a little bit of follow up on [TS]

  the software the complexity of software in computing and all that other stuff. [TS]

  What's a follow up on that and also directions a few themes I noticed in the feedback. [TS]

  One theme or was a lot of people who either are involved in academia or feel some connection to it [TS]

  and what they want to talk about with sort of field versus field their field versus someone else's field whatever their [TS]

  field may be. Physics chemistry engineering computer science math. [TS]

  They I don't know if they mis understood the discussion as if it was computer science versus of the field [TS]

  but that sure is the discussion they wanted to have [TS]

  and reminded me of this quote again from you know as they were in the way that the all codes apparently of Usenet [TS]

  things and this one is computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. [TS]

  I have a link that we can put in the show not they forget where the origin is but the little hash on the U.R.L. [TS]

  Is disputed so maybe it's disputed where that quote comes from [TS]

  but anyway that I think get to the heart of why we weren't talking about fields computer science vs any other field [TS]

  because it's not computer science is not about computers it's you know we were talking about software [TS]

  and computer sciences tangentially about software but not really. [TS]

  But anyway that's those are difficult different discussions they have about which field is superior to [TS]

  or a subset of some other field stuff [TS]

  and I were talking about the other one is people still want to talk about job difficulty. [TS]

  Like my job is harder than your job. [TS]

  You're saying your job is the hardest job in the world so on and so forth I thought I made it clear in the last show [TS]

  but apparently not clear enough to not have people come in [TS]

  and say whatever I do for a living is harder than what you do for a living [TS]

  or you think what you do reliving is hard because you do it. [TS]

  It and so on and so forth that's also definite we're talking about once one persons [TS]

  and then something about programming [TS]

  and complexity in the things we're talking about the last show which is from MIT is one of the ninety's courses on the [TS]

  Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs for that S S I C P. [TS]

  That's the one I think a thing of the book the book that they very much they have no idea lots of video lectures [TS]

  and they said from minute nine to about ten minutes and forty five seconds in this recording. [TS]

  The professor talks about a lot of the same things make the same argument I was making [TS]

  but touches on a lot of the same points that I was using to support my argument [TS]

  and it's a fun you know video to watch if you just want to watch and mighty professor teach for a while. [TS]

  So we'll have that link in the show to the well [TS]

  and it's only a minute forty five seconds you know to watch the whole thing just scrub forward to nine. [TS]

  And then Casey you put something in there from listener email. [TS]

  I think I was Marco actually talk about software complexity. [TS]

  All right so this wonderful feedback we got from a guy named John purple pilot on Twitter [TS]

  and I love his name is John by the way so he says the fundamental mistake here of course is that woodpeckers do not [TS]

  pick wooden houses. [TS]

  They pick trees trees are arguably the most complex things in existence by the way to get food store food [TS]

  and to nest Deadwood I eat that which has been felt and chemically treated is of no use or interest to woodpeckers. [TS]

  So wouldn't civilization would be secure from woodpeckers but probably vulnerable to woodworm or deathwatch beetles [TS]

  or termites. So I'm pretty sure John if you ever get tired of doing the show we can replace you. [TS]

  It's another job with another guy named John who made that comment. [TS]

  It would have been much better if he pretended he was serious because towards the end it's clear that he was joking [TS]

  and I kind of ruins the joke but I'm not sure he wants you out of the usual. [TS]

  I assumed he was not woodworm deathwatch building termites but that over the top. [TS]

  Are you joking when you criticize things. [TS]

  That's not criticizing it for us and the person knows that with a knowing e-mail I don't know. [TS]

  Anyway so we have a back up John. [TS]

  And thank goodness he is named John because otherwise I would've been totally confused totally. [TS]

  So what's often these days Marca this week response or once again by return sponsor from a while ago. [TS]

  Ram objects so you might remember a long time ago we told you about RAM objects oxygen which is a cross platform [TS]

  language that it was based on Pascal and it would let you compile for mac i OS Android Windows or even Windows Phone. [TS]

  Ram object has a new language now. It's a similar kind of kind of deal it's but actually based on the C. [TS]

  Sharp language. C. [TS]

  Pound Casey and how it is not seep out even in an accidental [TS]

  or she has you know that's it that's it it's take tactile board noted C. Sharp you big jerk. [TS]

  OK so they there's a very sharp [TS]

  and it's as a lot of the same advantages effect probably all the same as oxygen so this is really cool it's it brings [TS]

  C. Sharp as a native language to Cocoa So it's one hundred percent C. [TS]

  Sharp that you're writing and you're writing it against one hundred percent cocoa. [TS]

  It's very very cool so they ask you to take a look at it what you think right. [TS]

  So I took a look at it very very briefly but I did take a look at it and I did try it [TS]

  and I built the world's simplest Hello World style I.O.'s app by writing C. [TS]

  Sharp using RAM objects and it was really weird [TS]

  but I definitely liked basically what they do is they let you write in C. [TS]

  Sharp just like you said Marco you're writing against the cocoa touch framework [TS]

  and so rather than using the dot net framework which is I believe Zambians approach which is more we're going to [TS]

  obstruct the way cocoa behind the Dot Net framework that you're probably familiar with this is a little close. [TS]

  Sort of the metal so to speak in that your writing C. [TS]

  Sharp but you're writing it against straight up you like it for example [TS]

  and they even went to the point of extending the C. Sharp language such that you can use the Objective C. [TS]

  Style method names [TS]

  or message names so I wrote code where I made an alert view in so it my code for those of you who writes the sharpies [TS]

  var view equals new U.I. [TS]

  Alert view space with title parin quote high parental Space message it's hundreds hundreds [TS]

  or so it's really kind of weird but very cool that they've extended C. [TS]

  Sharp in order to allow you to write directly against cocoa in cover touch the advantage there being that you're you're [TS]

  really just putting a thin veneer on top of it [TS]

  and you're not relying on a whole different framework sitting between you [TS]

  and Apple's framework so it's very cool very clever [TS]

  and very interesting in the way they would have you write code is by writing in Visual Studio which I would argue is [TS]

  the best idea in the world and then you run and you run an application ion on either your mac or a mac in the office [TS]

  or a mac in the cloud and it basically compiles the binary dumps it on to that MAC [TS]

  and lets you run your app you turn the simulator on the device whatever it's actually very straightforward very easy to [TS]

  set up it works really well and I liked it. [TS]

  I can definitely see how this could make some really cool stuff without having to rely on somebody else's glue in [TS]

  between really. I mean you are but it's the thinnest lightest glue in the world. [TS]

  So if you're interested in getting your own thin layer of like glue [TS]

  and writing cocoa applications with the seizure of language go to ram objects dot com R.E.M. [TS]

  Objects dot com slash C S And you can see for yourself instead of a cool videos here you can see you can get more [TS]

  information than my mediocre performance in this ad read here. [TS]

  You can actually get more information you see the kind of code Casey was writing. All right here these great videos. [TS]

  Ram objects dot com slash C S Thank you so much to remap ject for sponsoring a show that you know I got to give him [TS]

  credit this is a really cool thing to do to even attempt to do. [TS]

  And from everything I've heard they do a really good job of it. [TS]

  So thanks a lot Rob just you know and I should also point out that that one of the things they say in their F.A.Q. [TS]

  Is you know hey what with the framework being gone what about cool stuff like Link And so what they've done is they've [TS]

  taken a lot of the link extension methods and it was pronounced a link that maybe if your surname is on. [TS]

  But anyway they basically ported some of the more frequently used parts of link into their platform so that's a really [TS]

  smart call and really really awesome to have have that tool in your tool chest. So cool. [TS]

  Thanks what they can the i Pad two finally how how long was it on sale so forever. [TS]

  It was released in two thousand and eleven like February twenty seventh. [TS]

  So made it three years three full years of being on sale. Brand new and that is crazy talk. [TS]

  Thing is only have one price drop. You know I wonder if that inventory they were trying to clear. [TS]

  They just like made way too many of them because you could see how Apple wanted to get away from thirty pin everywhere [TS]

  they just it was a loan so I guess I buy classic style too [TS]

  but like Lone real product lurching along with thirty that we've talked in past shows about why that we still want to [TS]

  be selling it too and how it made sense for education [TS]

  and all these other things that is why the lowest price possible but also my want the big screen [TS]

  and don't care about retina and so on and so forth but it just seem like it but it just went on for so long and [TS]

  and the things that they replaced the i Pad two not with like the next model up but with two models up. [TS]

  That's how old it is that it's like a Cayman can bring themselves. [TS]

  Was to replace the i Pad two with the three are to continue with or opposing with before. [TS]

  Well they probably don't want to admit that the three existed. [TS]

  I have the three I like the phrase it's not that bad I agree I have well actually Aaron's using it now [TS]

  and it's really not that bad. It's great I mean I really like three. [TS]

  Three is the one brief moment where Apple decided to do the thing they wouldn't move. [TS]

  Thing they wouldn't budge on was battery life and so they made things better [TS]

  and I like I wish they would do that with you know phones and laptops. [TS]

  Mostly laptops I wouldn't I wouldn't hold my breath on phones. [TS]

  I still hold out hope that if there is a bigger i Phone this year [TS]

  and I think there will be that that might also come with a you know I mean I was on the talk show while back [TS]

  and I mention this to Gruber that like I feel like if they do a big phone that might give them permission if they keep [TS]

  a small one in a line up the small one could be the one that keeps getting smaller and dinner [TS]

  and the bigger one can have a little bit more permission to be a little bit thicker [TS]

  and therefore have not only a bigger battery [TS]

  but a nicer camera sensor because the camera sensor very limited very hard by thickness. [TS]

  There's just there's so much more you could do with quality and image quality [TS]

  and things like optical in the stabilization and better focus possibly even a slight zoom capability. [TS]

  If you could get a little more depth on the phone so I would love it if they you know obviously Apple's never going to [TS]

  make that their only model [TS]

  but if they have like you know a bigger i Phone that you know they'll keep the small WANT TO around for the nice [TS]

  marketing shots and people who want the super thin super small [TS]

  but then they can have this bigger one for people who want a better camera and a bigger battery. [TS]

  When I was listening to that episode I want to I felt like reminding you [TS]

  and reaching the five years that the i Pod Touch My thing has a camera that is not flush with the back. [TS]

  Yeah like that's that's kind of what happens [TS]

  and they just keep going like well you can't go to ten because we had the camera it's like screw the camera we're going [TS]

  to enter it through the Carroll poke out deal with it. [TS]

  I'm kind of surprised that they're still selling the i Pod Touch and tell me about it. [TS]

  It seems like it's it doesn't sell that well and they don't care that much about it. [TS]

  It's a kid's device though it's like a my first I.O.'s device because you can buy to be a kid you know I do worry about [TS]

  cellphone stuff they can still play their I.O.'s games I think kids want them like based on talking to them [TS]

  or my children's friends of my little cousins and stuff. [TS]

  If they can have an i Phone which is of course what they really want but if they're too young for an i Phone [TS]

  and i Pod touch is the thing that they want that's like you know they aspired to have an i Phone [TS]

  when they were cool teenager and high school or wherever. [TS]

  But if they get that now and i Pod touch is the next best thing. You don't think the i Pad Mini has filled that role. [TS]

  Not among the kids that I don't I don't think I haven't even seen an i Pad mini in the wild amongst the young kids yet [TS]

  maybe because maybe a too big to give a kid [TS]

  or maybe I don't know to too expensive to breakable I thought that's a much cheaper it would be nice if they revised [TS]

  that every once in a while [TS]

  but looking at the I agree with you though John my sister in law who was in high school for the longest time until she [TS]

  somewhat recently got an android phone [TS]

  when I wasn't paying attention she was using an i Pod Touch In addition to like a flip phone [TS]

  or one of those phones with a flight out so you can type on a full court a keyboard [TS]

  when you wait so she was easier i Pod touches her kind of sort of smartphone. Well let me refrain from start to solar. [TS]

  She was John Surtees and had an ancient nonce Mart phone and then used her i Pod Touch for doing smart things [TS]

  and she said she loved it in the way she spoke about it it struck me as though that was a normal thing amongst her peer [TS]

  group if they didn't already have i Phones or Android phones or whatever you know [TS]

  and for the big the big phone everything is going is here. [TS]

  I I'm pretty sure that they're going to be like what we don't need to make a figure we get all this extra area because [TS]

  they will get a bigger battery because the phone has bigger like length and width wise [TS]

  and they won't make it you know thicker higher so I. [TS]

  I would imagine it will be the same thickness as a five [TS]

  and I think they're not above having the camera stick out a little bit like it does in the i Pod touch [TS]

  or perhaps even more because I think unless they change the whole design to be designed around those I think that Apple [TS]

  absolutely does not want to bullshit all of the Android phones that you see out there [TS]

  and like the one they would need or even the Nokia ones [TS]

  when they want to bigger camera they like we will smoothly kind of raise up some kind of lump [TS]

  or it'll be like a lump with little ramps on the side or some kind of organic bulge type shape [TS]

  and you could Apple could come up with a rounded bulging kind of like design kind of like the made to people remember [TS]

  that look like or even the toilet book towable IMAX [TS]

  or any of those things like it's not it's not out of the realm of possibility that you go with something curved in fact [TS]

  every time I think of an i Phone Sex I think of something at the curb and tapered on the edges [TS]

  but that's just you know. [TS]

  Yes I actually have dreams about the shape of the i Phone six and the fact that is not a prediction that's just [TS]

  when I [TS]

  when I wake up having a dream where I saw the i Phone six it was curved in that anyway whatever you buy i Phones So why [TS]

  do you do you have dreams about and who knows you can control your bedroom [TS]

  and so is this the year for an i Phone for you. [TS]

  Oh I don't know but can I can I think of bet on no stranger things happen. [TS]

  But if they stick with the current design trends that means flat [TS]

  and if they're going to have a camera stakeout it will be a completely flat surface with a cylinder that sticks out [TS]

  from it and really that's not that bad and I guess if it sticks out too much you can get hung up on stuff [TS]

  but especially since so many people cases on them anyway. [TS]

  All that does is make the camera flush with the case or close to being flush with the case [TS]

  and that's actually not that bad [TS]

  and maybe it would help hold the case in place to keep from sliding I don't know I think Apple has options there I [TS]

  think the I hope the bigger one has better battery life just because the batteries bigger then of course also have a [TS]

  bigger screen all that stuff. [TS]

  But yeah what you're thinking a mark of like [TS]

  and you can actually make the big one thicker because we have a small one to fill it. [TS]

  Now it's back to what you're talking about John on the talk show [TS]

  but you have two phones they don't have one they can have every possibility has a good argument for it would be [TS]

  something that Apple do you know none of them can you just threw out. [TS]

  So Apple would never do that to get all of them have really good reasons behind [TS]

  and so it's just because of the way in theory so I have a somewhat related question. [TS]

  One of the things that bothers me about a case lists i Phone is a probably all in my head. [TS]

  Fear that I'm going to scratch the lens of the camera and I wonder if the current research [TS]

  or I guess are actually not even research they're building a plant to handle sapphires I cracked it. [TS]

  It's already Sapphire in the car on the current phone number [TS]

  and that's not the lens of the phone that's just the clear thing that covers the lens of the phone so sure if you've [TS]

  got a scratch and that I'm not even sure optically whether that would show up in your pictures [TS]

  but even if it would that's not like that. [TS]

  That part of the phone assembly does not bend the light as far as I know it is purely there to protect the lens that [TS]

  does Benoit's I'd imagine they could replace it for you. Reasonably inexpensively. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  and also optically because of where it is in the optical path it would have to be a really bad scratch to show any kind [TS]

  of flaws in your photos. [TS]

  If you think about it like if you if you hold me very close to your eye you're focusing on something very far away. [TS]

  You know it's like holding up a fishing line. An engine from your eye and focusing on something ten feet away. [TS]

  You're not going to see the fishing line where you're going to barely see it. [TS]

  So it has to be it has to be a pretty large problem on that surface to be visible in the photos. [TS]

  So what I'm driving at though is so whatever it is be it a lens [TS]

  or otherwise that's the outermost piece of the camera assembly it wouldn't make sense [TS]

  and I don't know anything about photography but it makes sense for that to be like sapphire [TS]

  or something very very hard so that if they hypothetically had a bulge for this camera assembly. [TS]

  Maybe some of the marketing spiel could be owed Don't worry Casey Liss this won't scratch because it's sapphire in so [TS]

  don't worry your pretty little face you're going to be all right. [TS]

  But it already is Sapphire is so that it is sapphire now yeah yeah on the five S. I thought that. [TS]

  So what what if I thought the software was for the Touch ID is it both. [TS]

  It's definitely for the camera at the touch touch ID home buttons I think it might also be [TS]

  and that's I assume with the Sapphire planter building you know a lot of people speculated that they might be going for [TS]

  an entire sapphire covered screen to replace that glass I have doubts about whether they can make enough of it to make [TS]

  that happen this year. [TS]

  I'm guessing probably not because that's like if you think about the amount of i Phones that are made every year that's [TS]

  all thought that's a lot of sapphire and as what we heard when the i Phone five S. [TS]

  First came out [TS]

  when it was pretty supply constrained I believe the prevailing wisdom on that was that it was related to supplies [TS]

  and if that's the case then you can you can bet that you know there's only so much in love and such. [TS]

  The sapphire might have been limitation and realtime follow up for me from me it is indeed on both the home button [TS]

  and the eyesight camera as per their website. [TS]

  The Touch ID is going to go on all their devices then they're going to weigh more sapphire [TS]

  and they don't need to something like oh they're going to cover the screen just for you don't need to say oh well touch [TS]

  I do will spread from it won't just be on the high end phone anymore it'll be an all sorts thing i Pads you know the [TS]

  mid-range phones and so they get a lot more stuff are just for that so it makes sense. [TS]

  And there's definitely you know you can you can look at what they did this last fall with the product line between i [TS]

  Phone and i Pad and and the you know the eighty seven and pretty much every benefit of the i Phone five S. [TS]

  Went into both I've had as well except Touch ID I don't know if the I'm seventy eight and [TS]

  but that was that's less relevant and I've had but Touch ID was an obvious thing they left out there [TS]

  and I was kind of questionable why did. [TS]

  Left it out and I think supply constraints make a lot of sense for that [TS]

  and certainly John I agree that you know if they're if they're both in production it really could just be for more [TS]

  Touch ID sensors. [TS]

  I don't think sapphire would make that great of a screen covering either because it's not just hardness that you're [TS]

  after like scratch resistance like Gorilla Glass has used to the little demos [TS]

  or the like Ben didn't show that it was stand spending industry strong in other ways besides just being scratch [TS]

  resistant and I'm not so Sapphire has the same the durability characteristics it has Gorilla Glass [TS]

  and you know might might be more fragile I don't know. [TS]

  And someone somewhere knows better about the relative material abilities of sapphire and grill that say [TS]

  but it's definitely a different thing so I wouldn't say Well they say it's better [TS]

  and they say it's harder therefore we should cover the whole screen [TS]

  and that maybe not maybe this will finally be the year of the rollerball flexible phone. [TS]

  Who could the flexible funded L.G. Have flexible fun to see that one someone actually made one. [TS]

  We've we had curve and now you know right so it's curved [TS]

  and they show it like in the little demo video they show it sitting on a table [TS]

  and it curves up like a little you know it's like concave and a finger comes down presses it [TS]

  and so it goes from curved to be flat against the table like that's more or less how much like Sadat's think it was L.G. [TS]

  Had armor which but anyway that amount of flex makes me wonder what the point is [TS]

  and also makes you wonder how how much can you fight you just want to grab [TS]

  and go if I keep flexing what happened for growth last year member of the destructive [TS]

  or indestructible glasses came out in the eighty's. [TS]

  If you'd like to take a thing and Wrapped Around Your Finger is no come back to shape right. [TS]

  Flexible phone just invites some idiots try to see how far it's kind of like [TS]

  and I guarantee you a certain point over stuff like thing [TS]

  and you'll be feeling this is one of those things that people always fantasize about. [TS]

  There's always some like prototype flexible something or other a C.E.F. [TS]

  No one ever makes after that and I wonder what is the use case for that like what. [TS]

  What use is a slightly flexible phone but that you can't like fold in half an. Make a lot smaller. [TS]

  Yeah it's not a I mean it's an incremental step like the idea of things that are flexible is like there is there are [TS]

  things that are flexible there is durable as you know like you can break it all you know you can do is bend it [TS]

  and it springs back to its original shape so it's a dirt Billy type thing [TS]

  and weigh a little bit of flexes that may be a step along the way to next year if I swear things called the Elegy flex [TS]

  if you google for pictures of our clever name gee would expect we're also sponsored this week by a new sponsor to us as [TS]

  far as I know but a very very old sponsored a pod casts. It's our friend that smile. [TS]

  Now you've probably you probably heard of at least one smile formally smile software at least one smile product [TS]

  and I use a lot myself actually so this week we've talked to you about text expander if you've ever heard a pod cast [TS]

  you already know what this does but just in case. [TS]

  We're going to tell you anyway so it's really cool tech expander saves you time [TS]

  and effort by expanding short abbreviations into frequently used text [TS]

  and pictures so they you know they play all sorts of A can do so they say for example you can do look at your e-mail [TS]

  signature you can automatically like you know type a couple characters to like you know E.M.'s are coming [TS]

  and they will expand into your entirety most of which are you can you can have standard responses to emails [TS]

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  or Whatever fill my default response but then there's like these form field and you can you can tap into them [TS]

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  or type like a reason like that like you can you can customize each one based on how you define a thing so it's a very [TS]

  very powerful tool to take tech shortcuts [TS]

  and expand them into whatever the heck you want this is one of those tools that like our friends Merlin [TS]

  and Brett turps [TS]

  or they love these going towards because you can customize the crap out of this like you can do so much with this kind [TS]

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  All Scripts and shell scripts you can sink your snippets via Dropbox you can use them on multiple devices. [TS]

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  There's even the I was version and it works as an A.P.I. To other apps to integrate and over forty five apps. [TS]

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  It really it's hard to cram a lot it's hard to really cram into this ad read everything Texas Mentor can do think of it [TS]

  as expand keyboard shortcuts into predefined things but with so much power behind it [TS]

  and so many options so many ways you can do that that it's really quite incredible [TS]

  and this is one of the reasons why I've never heard a tech spin [TS]

  or ad read on anyone else's show that was shorter than like fifty minutes long. But go check it out. [TS]

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  So check em out smile Software dot com slash A.T.T. Thanks a lot for sponsor our show. [TS]

  The tireless chat room has done our research for us [TS]

  and found a link that has information about sapphire vs Gorilla Glass. [TS]

  Apparently the fire is one point six times heavier [TS]

  and Gorilla Glass can take two point five times more pressure than Suffolk [TS]

  and there's other things as well about light transmission and how much energy it takes to manufacture [TS]

  and other things where it's a different Ariel. [TS]

  A lot of the stats given in this this is the interview with someone from grilling last always they tell you all the [TS]

  things that are horrible. [TS]

  I fire right like you know over how much energy it takes to manufacture it [TS]

  and how much it costs all those things you can change [TS]

  but the materials that you are it's more difficult to change so yeah maybe maybe don't look for a sapphire screen on [TS]

  the i Phone six but. [TS]

  I look for stuff our camera covers and touch anything he's touch anything he says adding a technical term Touch I.D. [TS]

  Services. I just close the tab there is a think a book an official term for it but that's right. [TS]

  What else do you want to talk about this book that came out about how Apple is haunted by the ghost of Steve Jobs I [TS]

  really don't have much to say about it but I felt like we should at least briefly recognize that [TS]

  and it sounds like everyone that I know that's read it says it's pretty bad. See that's the problem. [TS]

  Everyone thinks they should recognize everyone thinks they have to comment on it. [TS]

  And I referenced by going on this rant I'm commenting on it and therefore being a hypocrite [TS]

  but let me get through this. [TS]

  The fact is you can say anything you want to anything you like the whole point of this book is to get mention [TS]

  and become a controversy and become get discussed so that everyone goes out and reads it. That's the whole point. [TS]

  And by lending credence to what is clearly from almost all the reviews was clearly a pretty terrible book based upon a [TS]

  presupposed argument that really is not supported at all in the book and by the facts. [TS]

  It just seems like it seems like this is a cheap trick to get attention and to get book sales [TS]

  and we're all falling into it by talking about it and by by linking to the book [TS]

  and by by even taking it as credible by even even the suggestion that we need to defend ourselves [TS]

  or defend a position or that Apple needed to respond to it [TS]

  or anything at that level why would anyone even if you talk about this. [TS]

  Well I mean the circles we travel [TS]

  and there are a couple different strains that are working against this one is that any book that ends up being critical [TS]

  of apple if you read mostly Apple centric sites people who are Apple fans are going to say this book says bad things [TS]

  about Apple is wrong because let me tell you why all the things they say are all wrong because I like apple I think was [TS]

  good they're saying Apple's betting they're going to fight so that like that you expect to see that type of feedback. [TS]

  The other thing is that so few people have any access at all to Apple. So the content. [TS]

  The book is sure to be filled with like you know example earns make fun of like we've we found Tim Cook's childhood [TS]

  typing teacher because that's the only person you get X. [TS]

  You can't you can't talk to the people who know anything like you have to talk to people who've been out of who are [TS]

  like who left Apple years and years ago who are were fired and or disgruntled [TS]

  or like you just you just don't have access to the real things you have second [TS]

  and third hand information in the first ten stuff you have is just barely relevant so it could be argued that even if [TS]

  there was a case to be made that Apple was a haunted empire and there's all these problems [TS]

  or whatever you wouldn't have access to enough people or facts to actually support your case and that's why [TS]

  when people read this is they OK the whole story is that Apple has big problems [TS]

  and that story people assume like you know this author you're Yukari Cain went in with that premise ahead of time like [TS]

  I'm going to write a book about Apple's doomed and start from that premise understand supporting southward [TS]

  but couldn't find enough supporting facts. [TS]

  It could be that she went in just trying to write a story about it [TS]

  and the few the few supporting facts she found a lot of young theme I can sort of tease out of all this information [TS]

  mostly from second and third hand information and I need something that's like dramatic [TS]

  and the two things you can have a dramatic are like you know the Steve Jobs to error of story which is Apple rising [TS]

  from the ashes that's one kind of dramatic [TS]

  and once they've risen from the ashes the only other dramatic story left is watching them fall so I don't like [TS]

  everything who is familiar with the author before reading the book says that she was a good reporter [TS]

  and did a lot of good stories. [TS]

  So I'm not entirely willing to go full cynical and said she was writing like a hatchet job [TS]

  and just trying to gin up controversy. [TS]

  It could be that this is where the scant facts that she had led her but it just doesn't sound like it's a very. [TS]

  I didn't read it so I can't say but it doesn't sound like a very well supported argument within the book [TS]

  and also every single time I see her name which is. [TS]

  Yukari came which I have to spare and every time I said what I read in my head is where when you tiny [TS]

  but neither one of you knows what that is and wailing Tani is not spelled in any way like Yukari cane [TS]

  but my eyes like transposed the Y. In the case that way when you talk anyway. [TS]

  That's all I have to say about the book I think well I feel like you know that there's two things that I want to pick [TS]

  on here one is that you say well she's a reporter that doesn't mean anything. [TS]

  Reporters span the spectrum for and even if she had only about every Vishy than the reporter for a long time [TS]

  but the people said her reporting was good like her stories were good like they were in trashy stories they look at [TS]

  their well researched stories an insightful [TS]

  and so on again as I'm going from other people so I guess I haven't I don't remember seeing a byline anywhere so I [TS]

  don't know I mean if you've ever [TS]

  and this comes up frequently in the text I mean a Imagine if you ever read a story like in The New York Times about [TS]

  technology and you see like you these are like these are legitimate journalist supposedly writing about this [TS]

  and then you see the like sixty percent of it is wrong or bad or misleading [TS]

  or you know somehow poorly done you know with this like the fact that she's a reporter doesn't mean anything to me [TS]

  reporters while there are good ones. [TS]

  The average is pretty bad especially these days the average is I'd say really bad [TS]

  and so just being a reporter alone even if you don't for a long time [TS]

  and even if some people think you're a good reporter that isn't necessarily mean you're qualified to write a book about [TS]

  a tech company especially one as as secretive and controversial as this. Second of all who cares if it's a book. [TS]

  If this was published as a series of blog posts that all ended with well by the way Steve Jobs goes looking over them [TS]

  and they're doomed if this is a blog [TS]

  and every every post was trying to cram badly supported facts into a predefined narrative [TS]

  and not doing a very good job of even doing that would we give any credibility to it would even be talking about it [TS]

  and the answer is probably no now. [TS]

  We're talking about this because it's a book because culturally we like put we put value on books sell well. [TS]

  A book is a big deal because you know that they had to spend months on it and some reporter [TS]

  or some some publisher had to pick it up and everything [TS]

  but the fact is books books are just as bad as everything else [TS]

  and there's there's tons of horrible books being published at the time the publisher publish this book because they [TS]

  knew it would sell. They did their job properly in this case they knew this book would sell. [TS]

  They didn't care whether it's going to be good or accurate they don't need to care about that. [TS]

  All they need to care about is will this book sell and pretty clearly that they bet correctly on that. [TS]

  That doesn't mean it's good [TS]

  and that doesn't mean they need to talk about it's really does it mean that the burden is on us to you know somehow [TS]

  somehow prove to the world that you know this book is stupid [TS]

  or that we need to you know ignore the fact is books are just as fallible as everything else [TS]

  and have roughly the same quality average [TS]

  and everything else I think the jury's still out though on the on the theme of the book like ignoring that the content [TS]

  of the book and how well the theme is supported this is the right time for a book about how Apple may be [TS]

  and a client right because we don't know if it's in decline yet it's too soon to say ever [TS]

  and still waiting on you know whatever Apple's going to do next [TS]

  or whatever so if you're going to write a book about how Apple declined you better do it before they come out with [TS]

  whatever Big Bang thing that could you go gangbusters and you also say say Apple never comes out with something [TS]

  or the car with a brand new product in [TS]

  but the whole company on it's a flop if you read then write a book about Apple's decline you have to wait long the [TS]

  other way for the post mortem because you don't seem you don't feel like you're insightful right so a book about how [TS]

  you just paste in the title you just pitch haunted employer Apple after Steve Jobs you could pitch to a publisher this [TS]

  is the right time for that book it just doesn't doesn't appear to be a good book based around that title right. [TS]

  But that is like you said the publisher is going to say yes we would love a book like that we would love a good book [TS]

  like that but if we can't get a good book like that will take whatever we get is now is a dime for that book [TS]

  and if Apple does go down the tubes like people are going to be fighting this bug. [TS]

  The book was terrible but she saw it coming [TS]

  and maybe she didn't see it coming like doesn't seem like if you make an argument and you don't support it well [TS]

  and you're sort of self-contradictory and get a bunch of things wrong and don't have good access. [TS]

  Even if your theme turns out to be right later I don't think you get credit for prickly predicting anything [TS]

  but I think the jury is out and we are all waiting for to see what Apple does next. [TS]

  So this is definitely the time for this apparently very bad book. [TS]

  One of the things that I've wondered about myself after hearing all the hubbub about this book is am I capable actually [TS]

  are we capable of being critical of Apple [TS]

  and perhaps I'm just filling in the blanks to make my argument with myself sound OK in and the way I wanted to [TS]

  but I feel like the three of us have been fairly critical of Apple you know we've we've all meant to their services [TS]

  division pretty much since the show started. [TS]

  We've been complaining [TS]

  or I believe we complained about how little storage is in the devices how little storage you get on in their services. [TS]

  So I don't think that any of us are incapable of being upset with Apple or disagreeing with Apple [TS]

  but I don't know it's something I I worry about that I don't I don't want to be just a shill [TS]

  or if I am a shill for Apple I want to at least know wait and minutes myself [TS]

  and then admitted to everyone that listens [TS]

  and I don't think we're there yet worrying about whether I'm capable of being critical something is not something that [TS]

  I can market before mentioned about journalists and how you know the average is pretty low [TS]

  and to get things wrong I was reminded of that. [TS]

  It wasn't time to Time magazine there was something like The Times of London or something [TS]

  and the story was reprinted in time but I weigh the whole big deal was like a Johnny I thing yeah. [TS]

  Finally we have we have access to an interview with Johnny I view which it's true he so rarely does interviews [TS]

  and he decides to do an interview not because it was a product induction or anything [TS]

  but it's like hey here's Johnny Ive you want to talk to him and then you read the interview. [TS]

  And it's clear that the person doing the interview doesn't really understand Apple Johnny Ive [TS]

  or technology which is a shame because it's kind of like to authorize extreme situations a writ small. [TS]

  Give an opinion on that John. Yeah I mean that's. [TS]

  Speaking of this or that [TS]

  and buy books I have just been ignoring it because I knew it was going to be no good like I don't. [TS]

  Unlike the Walter Isaacson's book I don't have to read it because it's not like this is the one person who had to [TS]

  expect exclusive access to someone who's now dead that is not the case we want to work [TS]

  but I way this Johnny Ive interview is like the person who did the interview read but Leander was his last name. Cany. [TS]

  Anyway here's Johnny Ive book also suffers from not having a ton of Access but he did the leg work [TS]

  and he got as much access as you could to people's causes Johnny I was you couldn't it was a lot of new [TS]

  and good information in there even if you could tell it's like boy he really didn't get as much time as I'm sure he [TS]

  would have wanted was Johnny and cell phone with Apple but like what can you do. [TS]

  But the Johnny I book I would recommend reading even if you can totally tell that it suffers from a lack of access plus [TS]

  not the author's fault but the interviewer read that book summarized at third grade book report style [TS]

  and then asked Johnny Ive three dumb questions and wrote his answers and that's their super exclusive interview. [TS]

  It's like seriously I mean maybe if you haven't read that book you might think oh this is some new information here is [TS]

  all this from the book like I don't know if you got a cell but he's a summarizing the book [TS]

  and then the questions he asked Johnny I would just like the same questions is answered a million times [TS]

  and this was an interesting it was such a squandered opportunity not squandered again [TS]

  and same with Walter Isaacson squandered it because Johnny I was a dead end because you've done other interviews [TS]

  and so on and so forth [TS]

  and he was not designated as the one you know person who's going to write the definitive autobiography of Johnny Ive [TS]

  but boy that was a bummer of an interview. [TS]

  Well I love that the one thing that that grilled Johnny Ivon was what do you do with your old i Phones. [TS]

  Who [TS]

  or what do you think is going to happen the hermetically sealed operating system whatever the hell that means I think [TS]

  he was. [TS]

  I had to get it like that you can't change the batteries [TS]

  or they're built in obsolescence The thing is all they actually said Planned obsolescence. [TS]

  Yeah like you know the the the connectors that are always changing. [TS]

  I made a tweet about it like I just bought the thirty pin connector barely a decade ago [TS]

  and now you're going to change something like what you've got to be kidding me of all it's clear that he just didn't [TS]

  understand the market like Google for people angry at Apple [TS]

  and found like non-replaceable batteries people complain about lightning connector [TS]

  and it's like those are not the things seriously of all the things that Apple has done that are very Apple like to piss [TS]

  people off. [TS]

  Changing the thirty pink actor to lightning after like a decade and a half [TS]

  or whatever the how long that thirty been connected with a route that is not one of the apple things to do. [TS]

  Like that's not one of they do lots of things like that soldering the ramp feeling in the batteries [TS]

  but they've had two connectors an entire lifetime the thing seriously. [TS]

  All right that that article was super disappointing [TS]

  and that's an example of someone wrote a good post about it I wish I could find it where they were like trying to sell [TS]

  a book publications out there. [TS]

  When Apple gives you schools have access to one of their employees don't send dunces to interview them like they're so [TS]

  hard to find somebody who knows something about Apple the sun I mean like how these people get picked in the press the [TS]

  article is like trying to take pains to say I'm not saying you should sent me or like my friends [TS]

  but like seriously you have these opportunities. [TS]

  It can't be that hard to find somebody who knows something who is also a competent interview and send them. [TS]

  Why is it always wise those people have no idea what they're talking about well you know maybe the answer is because [TS]

  like maybe Apple agrees to do these kinds of interviews knowing that the questions are not going to really be anything [TS]

  real or difficult like knowing to be like complete B.S. [TS]

  Interview like maybe Apple wouldn't agree to a published interview from you because they would know that you actually [TS]

  ask good questions that would that would be you know difficult but also have a P.R. [TS]

  Would try to pick the person but these days they seem to pick the publication like I don't think they pick this guy. [TS]

  I think they offered up Johnny after the publication and the publication picked their reporter [TS]

  and these people who they send the dunces their worst because they're like trying to press Johnny Ivan things that are [TS]

  no you know a lot of controversies are never really worry about like you know replaceable batteries is not hot in the [TS]

  news now like that's not what you want to Leno and Jony Ive about as your tough questions [TS]

  or like hermetically sealed operating system like he doesn't even know what he's getting at [TS]

  but like past controversies or things that like those aren't relevant that's not you know [TS]

  and having Johnny Ive have to try to parse those questions and deflect like that's a waste of his time [TS]

  and I don't think Apple would choose that either it's not like you're just getting softballs you've got to come in like [TS]

  I'm going to be tough and asking the tough questions the tough questions are nonsensical [TS]

  and Johnny like I think I understand what you're getting at [TS]

  but like didn't we like is that controversy you know you are talking about ten again. [TS]

  Like what are we talking about here. [TS]

  He didn't ask about intent [TS]

  but it's the same type of thing as if they sent some cub reporter to lean on Johnny Ive of antenna gate. [TS]

  That's going to be about as useful as and a disciple of the interview they did. [TS]

  The interview was not that impressive to me at all. [TS]

  I was disappointed [TS]

  but let it be known the news publications of the world that if you need someone to interview an Apple employee John's [TS]

  or case is available you have to pay for his flight. I'm a terrible interior but I always know what I'm talking about. [TS]

  Goodness we're also sponsored this week by our friends at square space the all in one platform that makes it fast [TS]

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  Also every one of these themes comes a response of design. [TS]

  So your site looks it looks like your site on mobile all the way up to a giant thirty inch monitor if you have one. [TS]

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  or rather has the same theme everywhere you know looks in the same style everywhere so it's not just like one generic [TS]

  mobile theme they apply to everything really really great system they have here fully responsive in case of any [TS]

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  credit card required to get your free trial go start today squarespace dot com Use offer code critical. [TS]

  Thanks a lot the Squarespace are sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

  You gave me time to find your article was just Carlson [TS]

  and the title of his post was why the big magazines hire hacks for big tech stories. [TS]

  So I put that over there on the show no it's annoying to the actual interview [TS]

  and a link to the end of Kenny's Johnny Ive book which like I said suffers from a lack of access [TS]

  but I would still recommend people reading because there are there is information that was new to me in that book. [TS]

  Right so Sony released some virtual reality headset saying incorrect. [TS]

  They don't release anything then else you can tell how much I care about video games and know about the stuff. [TS]

  Did you see the suits at all in your isolation bubble Marco your jury duty isolation bubble. [TS]

  No I saw I think I saw one tweet talking about it but it's like at long story my very quick time [TS]

  but unfortunately during my quick time at lunch after actually eat lunch. [TS]

  And so there's actually not a lot of time to browse the internet that much. So yeah I always thought I was. [TS]

  They are apparently making one or working on one [TS]

  and I thought it was funny because it seems like the our headsets are are being worked on roughly every three to five [TS]

  years by somebody new and they never seem to really get anywhere. [TS]

  I know there's the the Oculus Rift the one I know that one that was getting some traction [TS]

  but this is coming to a head because like it's not this is not a regular cycle type thing this is more like there's [TS]

  some people who have dabbled before [TS]

  and there was like the first briefings in this direction in the ninety's with these terrible things that you'd see at [TS]

  like a video arcades and parties [TS]

  but it went away for a long time because we just learned we're not that the stuff doesn't work. [TS]

  And Oculus has been bringing it back in a big way and the rumors of Sony doing it. [TS]

  We're also bringing it back with like you know there are I think there are Kickstarter originally it's like they're [TS]

  doing this thing it seems really cool but you know who knows who is really there [TS]

  and then John Carmack went to work for Oculus and left in software and that was a big deal. [TS]

  Like oh my God Well he's going there he's no dummy he's not going to be like joining up in this company that really has [TS]

  no they must have something [TS]

  and people have tried it it tried the kids they've said it's interesting in a president have the second version of Get [TS]

  which is way better than the first and [TS]

  when it went to technology actually looks like it's getting going that's what you get with the first one is like [TS]

  there's something there but this isn't great in the second one is way better [TS]

  and then the rumors of something too it's like OK well somebody looking at this isn't just a crazy research process [TS]

  because Sony wants to you know sell things the use of your Playstation they don't want like some weird you know thing [TS]

  that's not practical in the real world. So G.D. [TS]

  See I haven't read a lot about the story or Mostly I read the headlines but I know the highlights of G.T.C. [TS]

  Game Developers Conference. [TS]

  Sony announced that they're going to have some kind of headset thing [TS]

  and they showed like their history they've been working on this thing for years [TS]

  and years they show all the various old prototypes and this is not a shipping product yet there's no pricing [TS]

  or availability I don't think but they have announced their intention to have a shipping product so now I think that's. [TS]

  Now you kind of have a quorum. [TS]

  Like Oculus was going to ship the thing anyway [TS]

  and like it's the real deal as far as people are concerned people are actually playing games in it. [TS]

  Weather would be amazing or fun or Revolution game or not it was going to be a real product [TS]

  but what Sony does it it's like OK this is real real like I mean the connector for all you may say is like useless for [TS]

  games or silly or only fun for certain things [TS]

  and I guess I shipped it at the connect they revise it they made a better they should they connect to is part of X. [TS]

  Box one. [TS]

  It is a real thing with out there in the mass market [TS]

  and it seems like we are is very soon going to be a real thing with out there in the mass market [TS]

  and we'll see if it's more successful than the connected spin [TS]

  but I think this topic is fascinating mostly because of the technology problems that are involved in doing V.R. [TS]

  and I've been reading about it for several years with the Michael address you now work in a valve who's also been [TS]

  working on the same problem [TS]

  and he is a previous development partner of John Carmack they work together on Quake I believe in maybe something [TS]

  before that as well and there are tons of problems with V.A.R. [TS]

  Because you think of it as like you put this thing on your head and it's like a screen close to your face [TS]

  and it shows like what you would see in a first person shooter and you're done right [TS]

  and that is so far from the truth because if that's what it was we would have had it years ago that that doesn't work [TS]

  for tons [TS]

  and tons of reasons I put a huge number of links in here in the show notes will try to put them up in rough weeks on a [TS]

  chronological order Marco if you don't have anything to read during jury duty I challenge you to get through even just [TS]

  the links in this article but it is there extremely tough going and in-depth [TS]

  and by the time you're done reading it you'll be like man I don't want to implement to be our heads. [TS]

  That sounds really hard like the problems are just so different when you have screens right up close to your face [TS]

  and when they have to and [TS]

  when the movement of your head has to affect the changes in view because any sort of disconnect there is it just [TS]

  totally breaks the illusion because [TS]

  when you turn your head you better be looking to your side you can have it like catch up later. [TS]

  I mean talk about motion sickness it's that it's very difficult even to simple. [TS]

  Things with screens that are shot in your head of course has to be two different screens because you're right I see [TS]

  something different in your left eye so I think this is a real thing. [TS]

  I would really love to try something like this but I have not had an opportunity to try it. [TS]

  But it's Sony comes out with one I will probably buy a Play Station four and buy one of these crazy things [TS]

  and sit in my living room with like a crazy person with something on my head just to see what this is like you have to [TS]

  take a picture of that. Please get in touch with Tina I'm not worried about it. [TS]

  Did you have a Virtual Boy when those were thing I genuinely have done the same as the other stationary [TS]

  but no I didn't. Did anybody have a virtual pool. [TS]

  Why do you know if that was during the era in which you could have bought it for yourself [TS]

  or anything like that I forget. [TS]

  If you're just a little old or very old and I wouldn't buy the for myself you know I felt I was a dud. [TS]

  I just remember when this is the true story [TS]

  when I was a kid I want to say this is like my tenth birthday some like that. [TS]

  This was early ninety's we were living gosh we're either living in Illinois or in Austin Texas [TS]

  and I somehow convinced my parents to go to this like virtual reality arcade [TS]

  and I put a link in the Channel put in the show notes and it was like this God awful Early's nine early ninety's V.R. [TS]

  Where you would like hold something and he was like a first person shooter sort of thing where you hold something [TS]

  and you had this like was there a terror attack though I don't remember. [TS]

  But there could have been that many of these things because it was it was like the same like the demo that was [TS]

  and all it did a little science centers and everything in one thousand nine hundred three. [TS]

  And so I've really I had a birthday party there where we basically played like a not bloody death match game against [TS]

  each other and I remember not a big guy [TS]

  but I remember trying to put this massive helmet on my head in barely being able to lift my damned thing what you'd [TS]

  like twenty pounds and my gosh it was so rudimentary and so awful [TS]

  but at the time I thought it was amazing I couldn't believe my eyes. [TS]

  My eyes are red I couldn't believe what I was doing it was incredible. [TS]

  Well those things always felt like and the reason they sucked [TS]

  and went away very quickly is they felt like you were using your head. [TS]

  It felt like you know when you have someone who's like disabled and in a wheelchair in some way [TS]

  and they can't they can't use their limbs so they have lots of controls for their head because they do have net control [TS]

  where you get a bomb inside your head [TS]

  when it feels like you're using your head to operate the controls of first person shooter that does not feel like you [TS]

  are looking around in a virtual world because the lag was so horrendous they would just be like it would be like you [TS]

  know you'd be sending sending instructions via telegram to another room who would then move the mouse on your first [TS]

  person shooter and of course the resolution was low in the frame it was terrible [TS]

  but if so some of the if you read all these articles are the technical challenges some of them are actually interesting [TS]

  as they are related to television challenges well like they're using obviously L.C.D. [TS]

  Screens upon your eyeballs because you not have a C.R.T. There although the really cool steampunk kind of way. [TS]

  And L.C.D. [TS]

  Is what we mostly do with them unlike our displays and i just because they display an image [TS]

  and they're lit up all the time essentially and you change the image in the pixels change from one thing to another [TS]

  but you know during the time in between the images changing the old images there the whole time [TS]

  and then it switches to the new image [TS]

  and that turned out to be very terrible for things where you turn your head as you start turn your head [TS]

  and say the refresh rate is like sixty frames a second for one sixteenth of a second the pictured hasn't changed. [TS]

  You started moving your head your head is moving but the picture is not changing [TS]

  and that's not the way it works in the real world the sooner you start moving your head what you see in front of you [TS]

  changes and it's actually bad for the images sort of be there all the time [TS]

  and so one of the ones where the way they've been commenting this is with low persistence images where they will blink [TS]

  the image on to the screen for the smallest time possible then have the screen be black for the most of that six eleven [TS]

  second and blink the next image and link the next image [TS]

  and you would say would not be worse would not be like flashing and blinking [TS]

  and aggressive that's you know that's how I see Artie's work but I don't like Sunbeam scanning up [TS]

  and down he does so fast you can see the scanning but it turns out that makes a big difference. [TS]

  They're doing that and L.C.D. [TS]

  Televisions now as well trying to to get rid of like the soap opera effect [TS]

  and I have the motion learn everything to say let's strobe the backlight really fast so it's black in between frames [TS]

  like because it's not that people felt unnatural the images there are just different technologies we're just used to [TS]

  like C.R.T. [TS]

  The move project is great shows one image [TS]

  and then there's a blanking in the role that shows another one with L.C.D.'s tv's [TS]

  and with easier headsets turned out to be better for perception to show an image really bright image one frame of that [TS]

  really quickly for a tiny amount of time. [TS]

  Make the screen black until the next image is ready and show the next image [TS]

  and that turned out to be better because the way our visual system works is not like it really is our goal it is not [TS]

  like oh it's like a camera the records what's in front of us [TS]

  and sense approach to our brain our visual system is all screwed up and lots of stuff happens in the brain [TS]

  and it is not as straightforward as you think it is that you have to do all these hacks [TS]

  and tricks to work with the quirks of our visual system to make something that doesn't make people sick. [TS]

  That feels realistic and feels immersive [TS]

  and that's what I'm doing that's why people are excited about is like they're actually starting to get those hacks [TS]

  right I mean once they figured out people in hindsight to be like oh you just go do X. Y. and Z. [TS]

  but We're figuring it out now but [TS]

  when I think about this I worry a little bit about Sony like the UK US guys have great you know John Karr. [TS]

  We're going to there they're doing it right. [TS]

  And Sony are like maybe Sony just wants to be kind of in the ME TO club and it is going to take two screens [TS]

  and flopped in front of her eyeballs [TS]

  and it's going to not going to take advantage of all the stuff that Oculus knows [TS]

  and that would be a bummer if they are scared of that too. [TS]

  Do you think I'm going to be scared that something's going to be great [TS]

  but one of the stories on polygon I read today I agreed with I think was by Ben to chair was saying that. [TS]

  Oculus once the Sony v I think to be awesome to because they don't want the Sony of your thing to come out everyone to [TS]

  try it to suck in the never on the go over our socks and then Oculus comes out no like now working [TS]

  or in your view they all know the V.A.R. [TS]

  Sucks now I got us once we are to be a real thing and so Sony's thinking up would be bad but so far it seems like Sony. [TS]

  They've been you know researching for a long time that. [TS]

  They are not dummies they're not just aching to you know to P.S.P. [TS]

  or To a place they should be to scream shoving from a ribald in calling it a day at work I've been doing the hard work [TS]

  as well. No no they're putting transference and from your eyeballs. [TS]

  I'm calling today that would be cool if they would also saw the persistence problems low persistence images [TS]

  and I think we see. [TS]

  Problem solved because you had a problem though like you know neck pain that was one of the points I made of the Sony [TS]

  want to Sony highlight of the fact that their heads that does not rest on your nose or like doesn't rest on your nose [TS]

  or maybe the inset also on your forehead like this that's one of the sticking things if you want to put this. [TS]

  I mean they're not that heavy [TS]

  but they're heavy enough they're heavier than glasses for you know if they rest on your nose [TS]

  and use them for a while it'll make like your neck in your in the bridge of your nose hurt after a while [TS]

  and so the Sony one uses kind of like a sort of a a ring around your head kind of like a visor type cap [TS]

  and it hangs the picture screens down in front your eyes so it shows that they are thinking about the practical real [TS]

  world problems are also they're open on the bottom so they don't like fog up inside if you get all sweaty cool this is [TS]

  probably the opposite of cool but very excited to try to answer the question a chair [TS]

  and like I said No I have not tried Oculus Rift any version I haven't tried to sue anyone either. [TS]

  I would be willing to try to do one of those things and I get a chance. [TS]

  And they also know I wish there was an incident going on. This is actually a slow week. [TS]

  I put good health problem in there as a valid title to I did not know enough about that to comment [TS]

  and you can see that's the thing I've tried to read up as much as I can on it [TS]

  but I just feel like there's no facts in the in the press at the moment if you could go to the blog fear or whatever [TS]

  and so I don't think would be appropriate to comment on the particular situation. [TS]

  And speaking of things that are controversial things when you go down I mean a controversial supporters words [TS]

  but speaking of things I'm not sure I want to touch because it's going to piss off the world of matter HOW. [TS]

  Currently we handle it it's you know whether or not men in our field treat women poorly I think the answer is yes [TS]

  and I think it's terrible but I don't know if I really wanted them. [TS]

  Well I don't I don't think anything about the specific case that it's not like me to go in depth about the details of [TS]

  it but I like the larger issue I think is worth discussing [TS]

  and like you know if if we don't take the opportunity to discuss this issue [TS]

  when something happens related to it in you know basically in our own circles of the blogs [TS]

  and Twitter feeds theory read then you know like them are just never going to talk about it as if it remains one of the [TS]

  things that ever is [TS]

  and come through with that which is never say anything about it we just feel like one of ignore it until it goes away [TS]

  or blows over or don't want to follow it and I just don't feel like I Things will get better [TS]

  and so I I think it's worth discussing in general if not in this specific case. [TS]

  And I'll say one thing about a specific case [TS]

  and then we can talk about the general issue if you guys are still too afraid. [TS]

  In this specific case I went something like this comes up there's always the well you know all we've got is a lumber is [TS]

  inside the prison side you know one person's word against another or people take sides and Web sites [TS]

  and one Web site is on the side of the side in the whole web site start fighting with each other [TS]

  and they will fight in the comments and stuff like that. [TS]

  And even without going into details though like one of the things that comes up in a lot of cases including one that [TS]

  I'm not going to bring up that ever [TS]

  and you know what I'm referring to that people like to take the rules that apply in Marco's jury duty [TS]

  and apply them to life [TS]

  and say well if there's any reasonable doubt if we can't convict you know what I mean like Beyond has to be beyond a [TS]

  reasonable doubt. So innocent until proven guilty. [TS]

  That's what that's how we we must think about these things always [TS]

  and that's true in the law because there is consequences in law like you go to jail. [TS]

  So you know the for criminal court cases the bar is high because we don't want to send people to. [TS]

  Hell when they didn't do it like where they were trying to avoid [TS]

  but just having an opinion your opinion doesn't send anyone to jail. [TS]

  So I think we should be more free to have an opinion based on you know just whatever other criteria we think are [TS]

  reasonable because we're not saying we're sure we're not saying this person should go to jail [TS]

  or whatever we're just saying like if I had to put money on it like if you think about that for the Vegas odds you know [TS]

  what it says and when I see a story like this and I see all the hate going back [TS]

  and forth the Vegas odds on in this type of situation where a woman feels wrong by an employer the Vegas odds are she [TS]

  was wrong by employer because it happens all the time. [TS]

  Like if I had to put money on it I would say that the money is on the woman telling her first person account of having [TS]

  a bad experience of work is telling the truth because that's almost always how it is [TS]

  and it doesn't mean like oh that's what you just convict them all I that's not the criteria you can use to actually [TS]

  convict someone or to say certain someone and get help is bad or good or whatever [TS]

  but if I had to put money in that's what I would put money on [TS]

  and people are even afraid to make that assertion because they're like well you don't know [TS]

  and you just get one side all that is true [TS]

  but I think it's fine to kind of like get a feel for how you think things are going to turn out because you're not [TS]

  saying for sure you're not condemning anybody you're not pointing a finger at some specific person to get out [TS]

  and saying they're a bad person just saying from a distance I feel like when this thing comes out [TS]

  and all the laundry is finally Aaron if it does go to court or whatever that [TS]

  when the truth finally comes out never in kind of agreed by consensus of what the truth is what will come out is that [TS]

  the woman was wrong because it just happened so often. But that's that's the safe bet. [TS]

  And the fact that we can't even say that without saying well you're just you're prejudiced against Get out now [TS]

  and you're condemning them without a fair trial blah. [TS]

  It's like it just doesn't seem like that's just like another stopgap against you know if you say anything you need to [TS]

  have a hundred percent proof otherwise you're a bad person and it's just he said he said versus she said [TS]

  and we shouldn't discuss it also that bothers me. About all these types of cases. [TS]

  People think it's OK to have a reasonable expectation of how it might turn out because you're not you know you're not [TS]

  making any decisions and you not say anything with certainty. [TS]

  But anyway that's how I feel about the specific issue on a specific case. [TS]

  In its You're right in saying that it we should talk about it I think the thing that scares me is I mean I want to [TS]

  handle it delicately [TS]

  and given that our audience all of whose flesh whom I love very dearly tends to be a bunch of Pete and [TS]

  and God forbid I make one mistake. God forbid I say one thing incorrect isn't it. We figure that out. [TS]

  Well there you go. Who's going to be figured out who started the P.T. Thing is something Gruber ism. [TS]

  I think it is going to stop it. Everyone knows it's pedant. [TS]

  Yeah well either way there is no better word to mispronounce in the was language than that you know so perfect. [TS]

  Anyway so I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it I just I want to make sure that that I if not all of us handle it [TS]

  delicately and I'm a little scared that I won't. [TS]

  But you shouldn't you shouldn't be because people who condemn people who are speaking like you know every one misspeaks [TS]

  we do it all the time and if you misspeak on a sensitive subject it's no more intentional than [TS]

  when you misspeak saying someone's name or saying the name of a product [TS]

  or technology is because like the top of the can so incredibly charge that you're worried if you accidentally say the [TS]

  wrong word that you get people from one side or there are going to condemn you [TS]

  and that shouldn't we all make honest mistakes we all misspeak it happens like it's how you react to that like because [TS]

  it is a charge issue you may suddenly get all defensive or whatever [TS]

  and that's you know where you wouldn't get all defensive if you misspoke about like the price of a product [TS]

  or something on a you know on a podcast. Sure but no I it's interesting because I so take my company for example. [TS]

  We have I don't know maybe ten developers I would say roughly. And of all of them we have. [TS]

  One young lady that is a tester and is part of our same group been in the org chart. [TS]

  But I don't believe we have any developers and that's really it's really not a good thing really bums me out [TS]

  and I don't think it's deliberate on any of our parts were fairly progressive company. [TS]

  I think we would certainly love to have more women developers I mean being fifty fifty [TS]

  or whatever the planetary ratio is sixty forty whatever would be awesome. [TS]

  But as it turns out our particular group is almost exclusively a buncha doods and I wish that wasn't the case [TS]

  and I have not worked with very many women developers in my entire career which is around about ten years now [TS]

  and I don't like it. It's no good. [TS]

  But it's I mean even in school I barely saw any women engineers and I don't know why that is. [TS]

  I don't know if it's if it's a social or societal thing or at least in America. [TS]

  But I wish that wasn't the case [TS]

  and so the things that what is a gene McDonald that is doing at camp I totally got that wrong you know what I'm talking [TS]

  about Afghan for girls right. OK OK I had to get that right. I think that's awesome. [TS]

  And I'm I'm really stoked and hopeful that that really makes a difference and I think it will. [TS]

  I don't like Marco if you work with a lot of women as developers. [TS]

  I think the number might be zero I went to school with a few although the ratio there was pretty terrible as well. [TS]

  You know thinking back I'm pretty sure I've never worked with him out of Alper And that's I mean that's you know this [TS]

  is one of the reasons why I don't usually talk about controversy like this that that always seem to come up in our in [TS]

  our tech roll recently is because I completely agree that it is a problem but I really don't know how to fix it. [TS]

  You know I am going to just try to do my best to. [TS]

  You know be conscientious in this in the decisions I make as you know in a linear past the Academy I've never even been [TS]

  in a position where I was able to hire somebody. I've never made a hiring decision before even a tumbler. [TS]

  I was not to make hiring decisions. [TS]

  So I've I think that's one of the areas obviously where where you could focus a lot on that is hiring [TS]

  and then if you're if you're a boss over any people if your supervisor then you know that's relevant there as well. [TS]

  I've never been this position so I really don't know. [TS]

  The issue that well or I don't know you know what it would take to fix it. I do agree K.C. [TS]

  That I have been in a position where I was at least able to make you know look over and [TS]

  and help interview applicants for jobs before [TS]

  and thinking back I don't think there was even ever a case where a woman even applied to the point where I was even [TS]

  able to see her resume or interview her to a position. [TS]

  But my sample size there is very very small I've only you know I was only involved in a handful of those kind of things. [TS]

  But this is definitely there's definitely problems in our industry with both the hiring of women [TS]

  and then the treatment of them once they get it what once they get hired and the treatment of women in. [TS]

  I mean and this [TS]

  and I'm going to the tech industry this is a you know a problem culturally worldwide health in those places which is [TS]

  really terrible [TS]

  but I don't know how to solve that problem besides the limited bit I can do from where I am as far as I know which is [TS]

  you know when things got canned for girls come around I can try support those things. [TS]

  And if I'm ever given a chance to make a hiring decision then you know to ignore gender when I make that decision. [TS]

  Besides that I I don't really know what else I can do [TS]

  and if there are you know major things I could do above to hear about that. [TS]

  You know they went after him for girls came out it got a lot of support because I think a lot of people didn't know. [TS]

  What to do and that was something that was very clearly this this could help in a small latest could help. [TS]

  So let's support that and support and I can help. [TS]

  I would like to say I would like to have more opportunities for people who know more about this [TS]

  and who are better suited to to even know how to address these kind of things which I am you know some of it was [TS]

  middling not. I would love to know what else you know men who are programmers like us. [TS]

  What else we can do to address this you know how else can we help. [TS]

  Here's something I've heard from people who have worked with I have worked with a lot of women and [TS]

  and Don't you know have been like well I work with women and everything seems to be fine here [TS]

  and you know I I don't see any problems. [TS]

  And the idea there is if you are a nice person and if and if you hang out with other nice people. [TS]

  If someone is being a jerk somewhere you might not see that because there's the whole you know the whole culture the [TS]

  women try it you know keep their heads down and not make a big fuss about these things [TS]

  and so it could very well be that you are working in a company with a bunch of women who you treat perfectly fine [TS]

  but who nevertheless get terrible treatment from others and just don't say anything about it [TS]

  and you're not aware of that because they don't say anything about it it doesn't apply to any of us. [TS]

  Well I mean I suppose it could apply to me [TS]

  but for you to we're not working with a lot of women that's not going to come up and [TS]

  when I think about things we can do it's like even if you're not in the situation if you just read enough about it to [TS]

  know to know what the path ologies are can know like yesterday is possible for you a nice person to be working [TS]

  alongside women who are being terribly three do not know it because they don't feel confident [TS]

  and confiding in you because they don't complain about it. [TS]

  And so if you're even a little like oh well you could support women who have these problems [TS]

  or whatever like you can support them if you don't know it's happening so that's like step one be aware of what you [TS]

  might not even know like you might not even know these things are happening and this is not. [TS]

  But by the way I think where they get help thing this is a specific case with a Jeff with a possible gender slant [TS]

  but jerky bosses. [TS]

  There everywhere and those I have experienced and dirty bosses can be jerks there tend to be jerks to everybody [TS]

  and it's a similar type of situation where maybe someone is getting sort of you know harassed [TS]

  or emotionally abused by their boss by their boss the spouse by anybody else regardless of what gender they are. [TS]

  People have terrible bosses in terrible work relationships [TS]

  and some people hide it because they feel like it I mean men [TS]

  and women who like if someone is you know treating them very badly in a job they don't want to say they look like [TS]

  they're weak or they're they don't feel like they don't have a way out and you may be working alongside them [TS]

  and not even know it. [TS]

  That's another reason I believe these things because toxic work relationships between you know you know superior [TS]

  and subordinate work relationships that are toxic are just everywhere like and I have experienced those [TS]

  and I've seen them first hand second hand and heard about them from others they're worse when gender is involved. [TS]

  But even if gender is not involved like it happened so much like just you know if that's the pattern of you know give [TS]

  somebody a little bit of power and have them have any sort of imbalance and I started using that power [TS]

  and taking it out on the people below them and just so many bad things happen in companies because of that [TS]

  and if you're not aware of it really it's not happening to you you might not see it [TS]

  and so that I think would be like the first step that any of us can take is be aware that this could be a thing that's [TS]

  happening even if you're not part of it and I don't know what you do about that [TS]

  but I guess I guess being aware is the first step in the cycle when I was you know supporting people [TS]

  or any situations again regardless of gender or whatever [TS]

  and I guess the third is don't do that work for companies like that like Don't start a company like that don't be a [TS]

  company like don't be a boss like that but also don't work for companies like that is the problem is [TS]

  when like you know even if all these things are true that get have a lot of good people who work there [TS]

  and they like working a good hub and maybe some of them are even tenderly aware of this thing gets like. [TS]

  But I like my job and I don't want to realize that I work for a bunch of jerks. If I quit would that change it. [TS]

  Do we collectively all go up and say we know somebody is being a jerk to somebody else [TS]

  and they should fix it like silence is like. [TS]

  The worst thing that could happen here was simple it is going to keep their head down [TS]

  and try not to think about it it doesn't really affect them maybe it's not as bad as it seems to be [TS]

  and that's the worst thing that can happen I just you know maintains the status quo the status quo is crappy for a lot [TS]

  of people do you work with a lot of women developers Currently I do surprisingly most of my past jobs have. [TS]

  Well I mean The first started I worked at like I was the only programmer and I was male. [TS]

  So there you go there but there was like the graphic designers were female [TS]

  and we hired another programmer who was female so like that I guess pretty good arrangers there a couple of other jobs [TS]

  have been more like lopsided where you expect zero women programmers like one of my current job I don't think it's [TS]

  fifty fifty but there's a lot of female programmers. [TS]

  And and the reason I brought this up about not knowing is like as far as I'm aware. [TS]

  Like they're treated well like but that doesn't mean this is something bad not having that I don't know about [TS]

  and I'm constantly aware of that. [TS]

  And even like we can all we all find ourselves anyone who is our age we'll find ourselves accidentally doing [TS]

  or saying something sexist because like Essentially that's how we were raised that's the culture that we were raised in [TS]

  and it's a struggle every day to try to untrain yourself from these terrible things that were you know these [TS]

  expectations and biases that we have. [TS]

  But now they are hiring definitely seems to not discriminate based on anything [TS]

  and female developers as far as I'm concerned as far as it seems to be all my coworkers concerned are not treated any [TS]

  differently than any other developer but there could be bad things happening somewhere that I don't know [TS]

  but I really hope not I haven't seen any of it [TS]

  but you know I worry about it sometimes because I read I mean maybe it's like you know going to Web empty [TS]

  and finding other things can't to read all the stories you like make this happen in my company [TS]

  and I guess that I have been a companies where bosses have been jerks like all you know gender not involved at all that [TS]

  just terrible terrible situations between people and groups of people and I also don't see that in my current child [TS]

  but I'm always looking for you know it's a very tough thing and I'm. [TS]

  Sitting here thinking to myself you know let's suppose that I start working with a female developer [TS]

  and let's suppose she gets crapped on by either a peer or a boss [TS]

  and I don't think that that's technically justified in my sight and I can wear a coat isn't good enough [TS]

  or something like that and I think that that's incorrect that our code is fine like do I have the cajones to say dude [TS]

  or mortgage abortive transitions are they going to. That was intentional that time other than take whatever. [TS]

  Or was that one was intentional the other one was. [TS]

  I love also they were using a word for testicles while talking about problems [TS]

  and I was through he was saying if he had the sentiment in Florida it's a fair point [TS]

  but yeah you know what I mean like what I have what I have the gumption to say dude or lady [TS]

  or whoever boss person is you know that's not cool that's not right I don't know that I would [TS]

  and I'm not proud of that I'm not I'm not saying that because I'm excited about it I just I don't I'm very [TS]

  non-confrontational. [TS]

  That's another that's another thing to keep people from saying anything they like [TS]

  but like by doing that it's like you know my aunt [TS]

  and my infantilizing them by making it sound like they can't defend themselves [TS]

  and come to the rescue which is also a sexist thing [TS]

  and so like people you know well meaning people are paralyzed by the fear that they're going to do something wrong [TS]

  and sometimes they would have done something right. [TS]

  But like doing nothing is almost worse so like you need leeway on all sides like ever involved has to give everyone the [TS]

  way I get to understand it if you did so they like that [TS]

  and really what you did was insulting the person didn't like it [TS]

  and I mean it's you know what at the back the old thing is judging people by their you know judging yourself by your [TS]

  motivations by other people by their actions well they would see your actions and condemn you for it me [TS]

  but you would judge yourself much better because your motivations were pure [TS]

  and so the need understanding all around to make this situation go better like not to condemn people who are trying to [TS]

  do the right thing but merely to explain to them how what they could have done differently or whatever [TS]

  but not so like that person is in case you know my enemy. [TS]

  Because he you know he spoke up [TS]

  and made it seem like I guess because myself made the problem worse they should explain that to you that you know what [TS]

  you did made me feel like I can stand up for myself and diminish me in the eyes of my peers [TS]

  but not say Casey is now my enemy [TS]

  and I'm going to hate him because it's clear that what you're trying to do is helping. [TS]

  Like that's that goes around in circles like just like a family comment threads and I think that it goes around [TS]

  and around [TS]

  and around like a lot of times it's it's people who are on the same side fighting with each other about how best to [TS]

  help each other. [TS]

  And that's that's one of the reasons why I don't usually join in discussions because I have enough people sniping me [TS]

  from every possible angle of everything I write the last thing I need is to enter discussion on a topic where it is so [TS]

  hot button and there's and you write like if you even in a discussion trying to defend women or or you know or [TS]

  or you know condemn sexism even in a discussion like that it's so easy to find it tough to find flaws in that that [TS]

  themselves are sexist or have some other problem. [TS]

  And if you you know if you enter this this extremely contentious discussion you are taking a big risk specially if you [TS]

  don't believe me the who a lot of people you know love to hate. [TS]

  And so it's to me it's not worth the risk of of entering a discussion where I am so intimidated to add anything to the [TS]

  discussion. And I also don't really think I have much constructive to add. [TS]

  And so there's not a whole lot of upside there for me [TS]

  and there's a whole lot of downside because not only do not only am I probably not really going to help anybody [TS]

  but I'm also probably to make myself look unintentionally terrible. [TS]

  Well I'm not saying you have to write about anything you don't want to read about [TS]

  but one of the reasons you're probably going to unintentionally parables because like I said we all have these gender [TS]

  biases that are in US like you know and. [TS]

  They're going to come out unintentionally in what you write and people are going to call you on it [TS]

  and that's not going to feel good about it doesn't mean they're wrong. [TS]

  It's difficult to react to it in the right way which again may be reason you just choose not to write about it which is [TS]

  a perfectly valid choice. [TS]

  But like sometimes I feel like at a certain point like if everybody does that if everybody's like well I know I have [TS]

  many internal biases and if I try to speak about in any way those biases will come out and people will call me on [TS]

  and I'll feel bad [TS]

  and I'll have difficulty reacting in a nice way there for all say nothing if everybody did that they just just [TS]

  continues the status quo and nothing gets better ever. [TS]

  And so like some people kind of have a fall on your sword to just you know be willing to if that's something you feel [TS]

  like you want to do and the second thing is by doing that by trying to say anything like we're trying to now. [TS]

  And inevitably like getting things wrong and revealing our own biases. [TS]

  Part of the process of people yelling at you about that is making you more aware of them [TS]

  and working on them so the next time you don't make the same mistakes [TS]

  and you kind of like like you would hope you would hope that you'd be improving yourself like you would be beating down [TS]

  your biases [TS]

  and I think even though I tend not to participate in these things I don't tweet about them really I don't participate [TS]

  in the comment sections but I read a ton of them [TS]

  and I think just even just reading them man made me much more aware of the things that I do or think or say [TS]

  or don't do or think or say that or that are making the situation worse [TS]

  or that are upholding a corrupt system you know consciously [TS]

  or otherwise i just by reading about them like reading basically reading other people getting getting attacked for the [TS]

  things that they say like I'm not a participant but I'm seeing it happen [TS]

  and what I'm coming away with is I might have said that same thing and I would have been just as wrong [TS]

  and I agree with this person and I have to think about why that's the case [TS]

  and like I said that's I think that's a growing experience I think that's one thing I get out of this that might be [TS]

  good is like exposure to this the masses being exposed to this even though the masses are not participating just like [TS]

  that. [TS]

  The few people are yelling each other because baiting being exposed to this this debate online even the terrible form [TS]

  that it exists online will hopefully help everyone who reads it. [TS]

  To sort of move along the path towards whatever they think their goal is. [TS]

  I guess maybe it'll make the terrible people more terrible too [TS]

  but I feel like in general it's going to it's going to help matters. [TS]

  You know something that Marco said a minute ago kind of struck me you said you were intimidated to join the discussion [TS]

  and I think that was a verbatim quote but it's not the spirit and I feel the same way completely but I can't help [TS]

  but sit here and think well what kind of a was in my where I'm intimidated to join the discussion. [TS]

  I can't imagine how intimidated I would be to be the recipient of this kind of B.S. [TS]

  Treatment you know [TS]

  and I'm being I completely agree like I'm a little uncomfortable about talking about this because I don't want to come [TS]

  across as a sexist pig and I fear that I may. [TS]

  And yet at the same time I'm getting so worked up over what is really an innocuous conversation in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things I cannot fathom how uncomfortable I would be if my boss treated me like crap simply because I'm a dude. [TS]

  I just I don't even want to think about it. It must be terrible. Good talk. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this way. And is that all that any better way than that. I guess not all right. [TS]

  They thought what responses this week Rahm objects see sharp smile and Squarespace and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now that the Dow was down until today from. [TS]

  It's set to that list and John we can got to this question if you want [TS]

  but you had said you know you saw some of your own wrongs in some of the things you read Are there any examples you're [TS]

  willing to share. Because I'm trying to think of. [TS]

  I know I think of things wrongly in many ways [TS]

  but I can think of a specific example of where I know I'm wrong about something or or wherever read something lately [TS]

  and been like you probably done that too. [TS]

  There any Tampa's you can think of where you've had that kind of reaction that you're willing to share. [TS]

  Well the you wanted like terminology all of the words that we grew up using that are it's like oh it's political [TS]

  correctness now they're insulting like they're insulting to use those like I'm not going to you know like the anti [TS]

  homosexual slurs that we also have when we were kids when we didn't even know what that meant. [TS]

  And you will see people defending their their ability to say that they like Bush but I don't mean it that way. [TS]

  They grew up saying it right. [TS]

  But like that's one of those things that once you learn how offensive it is your reaction shouldn't be like to double [TS]

  down and be like nope I'm going to keep saying it because I know I'm not on the phobic [TS]

  and I don't mean it that way therefore I'm going to keep saying it. [TS]

  That's not that's not a mature and appropriate response and the same applies to women. [TS]

  I mean I wonder if anyone will call you out for a friend to the woman you were with a young lady because that's [TS]

  insulting because it's implying she's you know inferior [TS]

  or like you know like how God would say I don't even think of it as he here it is. [TS]

  That's a perfect one because I'm trying to think of what what in my screwed up brain is the least offensive [TS]

  and most innocent term and. Ology possible. [TS]

  Right and and like and it's because it's just because what we were conditioned to do growing up [TS]

  and that's not an excuse is just this is an explanation [TS]

  and so the idea is to become aware of these things that we do just out of habit [TS]

  and how how they positioned the people who are on the receiving end of them [TS]

  and seeing other people called on it may make you think I say that a lot too don't I [TS]

  and I should think I should think of something else that I can substitute for that. [TS]

  Or you know a lot of that you see on line is people like all the political correctness police in these certain words [TS]

  that you can't say or whatever and then obviously you can take a name to exclaim and become ridiculous [TS]

  and call everybody gyno Americans instead of women because women is insulting to that as men in the name like you know [TS]

  obviously you know crazy with that. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but the thing is like people whatever people say like automatically because their parents said it because they said it [TS]

  when they were saying because some people would defend to the death [TS]

  and they'll be like nope I got to be able to say that forever I mean I know how I mean it. [TS]

  I'm nice person I'm not mean to women [TS]

  or whatever they're for you trying to make me not say that is impairing my freedom [TS]

  and it's political correctness gone awry and it's like you know that's that's not a fight worth having. [TS]

  That is you're on the wrong side of that it just doesn't it doesn't matter how you mean it you're working it you're [TS]

  working in the larger context here you know if everybody calls the whim of the office girls [TS]

  and you just do that instinctively [TS]

  and you don't mean in a bad way to Israel I don't like that thing is it has an unconscious effect on you because if you [TS]

  can still refer to them as girls even though if you think you don't mean it will shape the way you think about them. [TS]

  There are you know they are younger they are children of the men of the office run things [TS]

  and the girls in the office are just you know like it will shape your thinking just by saying the words. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  and so it's worth actually making a concerted effort to change the way you speak about it because it will change the [TS]

  way you think about it not because someone's making you not because they're taking away your freedom [TS]

  or because political correctness like it's just basic self-improvement [TS]

  and I mean I could think of many more examples but like. [TS]

  And you can keep going on to farther and farther reaches with not just not his gender issues but homosexuality [TS]

  and race and everything else. Everything that is some difference between us. [TS]

  Like you can trace all these things down and inevitably [TS]

  and all is there something we're doing that we could do better that is hurting these marginalized groups. [TS]

  So what was the what would you say was the proper term that I should have used women. Fair enough. [TS]

  That's a fair answer I don't know I for some reason I feel like but you can feel like you shouldn't. [TS]

  It's not that we know you didn't mean anything by it [TS]

  but like this is one of those cases where the macro just comes out of your head and like it [TS]

  and the fact that you are second guessing yourself like that so you get into the past like oh what am I supposed to say [TS]

  because you're just you know the pet you're in Granger's used to saying something else takes actual concerted effort to [TS]

  stop saying one thing and say something different and you're going to slip up and like you just. [TS]

  But it's like that's not a reason just to double down so I'll never try to train myself at all on the same thing [TS]

  forever and if you try to stop me you're bad. [TS]

  I mean that's that's I think what makes it so hard is because people who mean perfectly well can so easily say [TS]

  something or think of something in a way that really isn't you know perfectly fine [TS]

  or neutral as as you intend to be you know like like [TS]

  when I wrote my my review a Vesper I use the word balls all over the place. [TS]

  It takes balls to do blah blah blah and I got a few comments from people. [TS]

  Most most of the comments on the article were about you know of course I would write this because this is John Gruber's [TS]

  app and you know of course athletes all of Africa and all you gotta do is write an app and you charge five dollars [TS]

  and the younger brother that's fine for him. [TS]

  You know that with most of my feedback which of course is easy to disregard but I got I got I think one [TS]

  or two comments about how the word balls was kind of unintentionally sexist because that's will only men have boy. [TS]

  All you know and that made me think. I didn't at the time think it was worth rewriting the whole article. [TS]

  Let's not use the word balls but it definitely made me stop using it like that in the future. [TS]

  I'll say it like when you say unintentionally sexist unintentional and that sexism [TS]

  and gender relations were not in your mind when you wrote it [TS]

  and of course is a common saying that we all know that we've probably been using our lives right [TS]

  but that that term you're not responsible for the sexism that term [TS]

  but the person who first came up with that term you can be damn sure that sexism was one hundred percent part of that. [TS]

  They're trying to say men are tough men are brave men do things that are brave so it takes balls it takes This is [TS]

  organised this organ in male's bodies that women don't have that really had nothing to do with toughness at all [TS]

  but nevertheless it's you know Well men have [TS]

  and women don't women are wimpy that like it is one hundred percent a sexist term. [TS]

  But it's so ingrained in the culture that a certain point it just loses all that sexism [TS]

  and just become part of the background noise. [TS]

  But that part of the background noise is yes it takes balls to whatever and you see women co-opting it [TS]

  and saying that they have baldness becomes a generic term or whatever [TS]

  but what I was think about that it's like All right so I didn't mean it that way but it totally does mean that [TS]

  and doesn't hurt me to use a different term and you know the same [TS]

  and I was a few others like you know maybe I'm not going to go back and rewrite the thing [TS]

  but like in the future now maybe you'll think twice about it. [TS]

  I guess again you know just participate in these things if you think I'd comment on it I saw people those comments I [TS]

  want a gun into my head [TS]

  when I find myself having to say that like you know it if it will make you think well it's no skin off my back to use a [TS]

  different term there's plenty of other cliches in analogies and words that I can use that mean the same thing. [TS]

  Why don't I not use the one that is demeaning to women [TS]

  or you know exclude them from the realm of having bravery you know I mean [TS]

  and you know I think don't go back to my earlier question of like not really knowing. [TS]

  What I really could do I think that was a big part of that's the kind of thing everybody can do is just the everyday [TS]

  basics of the cavalry and perception and assumptions that that we can you know get caught out occasionally [TS]

  and then question [TS]

  and then you know edit ourselves to you know think about that in the future to be like you know actually you know that [TS]

  that is unnecessarily exclusive [TS]

  or has one of the Sary baggage I could use as alternative instead it's better like that I think is something everybody [TS]

  can do. And unfortunately you know these are the kind of things. [TS]

  Usually day to day most people won't get called out on things like this. [TS]

  Well the thing is like you're not going to call the people around right now [TS]

  but your grandchildren will call those same people. It's like an hour when we look back at like T.V. [TS]

  Shows in the fifty's [TS]

  and they just are like even Mad Men like you just look at it like sex was they were like that's exactly how we're going [TS]

  to look at people fifty years from now. [TS]

  Like it doesn't change you know the the the amount of sexism that we have to come back from is so massive that for [TS]

  millennia people are going to look back three or four [TS]

  or five generations ago about sex as they were like you can make a show about it you know Mad Men is part of Mad Men [TS]

  the scene. [TS]

  Boy can you believe we were ever like that I was so long ago they're going to say exactly the same things about us [TS]

  and all that. [TS]

  And since we can't do that since from our perspective you think it takes balls it's like that's not in the front of [TS]

  your mind when you're doing it [TS]

  and no one else is almost no one else reading it had a thought in their head about like oh that's a sexist thing to say [TS]

  but in reality it is and sixty seven years from now some of those back [TS]

  or in the blog post Look look how casually sexist this guy was like. [TS]

  And optimistically speaking of that right [TS]

  and it's not like it's just a difference of perspective like it takes time for that to be sort of you know conditioned [TS]

  out of people like we need to stop saying it. [TS]

  Stop saying these things make it unacceptable to say them amongst our friends like all the terrible things that I [TS]

  and my friends said [TS]

  when we were little boys like we're stuck living with that like we have to work to get that out of our brains [TS]

  but hopefully our children will not do those things [TS]

  or the different things that are bad you know we hope that we're making progress. [TS]

  I think we are because of you always look back fifty one hundred two hundred years like people seem to get more [TS]

  terrible more sort of like just under volved and sexist [TS]

  and racist like that's how it should be as we go back in time people should look more [TS]

  and more terrible in terms their practice [TS]

  and the Enlightenment is realizing we are exactly going to look exactly the same to people multiple generations from [TS]

  now [TS]

  and so you know you just try to try to do the best you can try to go as far forward as you possibly can in fact if you're [TS]

  not farther forward than most people that you're living with you're probably doing something wrong. [TS]

  You're you're bordering right on the fine line politics that that scary. [TS]

  That we will talk about this and I think politics there's plenty of people on both sides of that. [TS]

  Whereas sexism like the reason we see is coming up on the web [TS]

  and everything is like historically there's just been so little voice to this like it's just been in the background [TS]

  and like no one talks about it [TS]

  and it's like well you know everything's sexist So what you can do about it now I think more people speaking up [TS]

  and getting support from other people like this is becoming more it still amazes me [TS]

  when like some company will like some in their P.R. [TS]

  Department will issue some terrible sexist statement it's like don't you read the Internet like even if you are kind of [TS]

  it's like this person if your job is P.R. [TS]

  Like this you understand this is a thing like this so little self-awareness like the worst the worst offenders are the [TS]

  least self-aware. [TS]

  And so I hope that increased communication of the Internet and everything is making it spreading awareness of this [TS]

  and improving matters across the board at an accelerated rate because they just seem like I mean you guys weren't [TS]

  watching movies an eighth of like the movie working girl I know that it exists. [TS]

  I have never seen those like Melanie Griffith or maybe Harrison Ford and I'm getting this all wrong [TS]

  but I would like that have these female empowerment movies in the eighty's. [TS]

  But if you go back and watch [TS]

  and now it's like this was the female empowerment movement this is Paraguay factors than it's just like insulting. [TS]

  A women but it was like You go girl deuce of a row because you can have a job or wear a suit to Michael [TS]

  and that was progress back then but like you know it's not even a long ago and you look at it now as like you know [TS]

  and I have a feeling that like because those type of movies were not subject to sort of the you know the feedback from [TS]

  the masses in real time in large volume like it was movie studios [TS]

  and it send it out to the you know like it just we weren't all there to participate so it seemed like we couldn't we [TS]

  couldn't do sort of like the the the right compile run debug iterate whatever cycle you know what I mean. [TS]

  Like that's like oh so much faster now with us yelling at thing yelling at each other in real time about every little [TS]

  thing and even though that whole cycle seems silly and annoying and just like people want to ignore it [TS]

  or whatever I think that cycle the fact in the iteration is faster is in increasing the rate of improvement. [TS]

  To talk that is a guitar you know him. [TS]

  Yeah I kind of I know you meant that genuine and I kind of regret hitting the brakes a little bit earlier [TS]

  but it's just it's a just a field of landmines [TS]

  and I don't know I'm sure you should you should feel happy that not happy but you should be both disappointed [TS]

  and relieved that I'm assuming like that [TS]

  when I look at my Twitter followers like the thing where you can look at your analytics. [TS]

  What percentage of your Twitter followers are female [TS]

  and like almost none of my Twitter followers are female minds like ninety six percent men or something like that. [TS]

  I'm actually working right now [TS]

  and I want I wonder about the listeners to the show like what their rates are are their ratio similar to our follower [TS]

  accounts that you know what kind of feedback e-mail do we get our fifty percent of people listen to the show [TS]

  and then but but ninety percent of the feedback we get is for men. That seems unlikely to. [TS]

  So yeah that's that's another that's a symptom a symptom of all the problems we just described. [TS]

  I don't properly probably won't get too much flak but I would love to get some really good feedback about it. [TS]