The Accidental Tech Podcast

4: The Bridges


  by doing this podcast night like tonight why that's what I was going to do I said [TS]

  well you know I might be doing a podcast depending how late Marco you know his [TS]

  schedule whatever but if not I have a blog posted on 25 since like Dan Frakes [TS]

  thing about the macro is the Mac Pro many think I have my car and I i I have [TS]

  this week's blog post I need right that and I haven't stopped a chance to do it [TS]

  I try I wrote like two or three paragraphs of it while taking my son to [TS]

  swim lessons today while he was in the swimming pool of Russia Rodi my [TS]

  paintings inspired by Jason still do that wasn't actually wasn't that awful [TS]

  but he was still here and I started writing again and I said you know [TS]

  podcast on it so you are thwarting me from posting to my blog by continually [TS]

  like last night I had a podcast can blog about it tonight I got a hot again [TS]

  tomorrow talk about it actually was gonna talk about that particular topic [TS]

  in in the podcast last night that I was on one of the topics when the question [TS]

  this topic came up and I debated saying something but I said ok we'll hear this [TS]

  and I talked for like two and a half minutes that ok now just make a coherent [TS]

  and put it in writing my blog presents a challenge so yeah I mean many of my [TS]

  podcast discussions were inadvertently draft for blog posts are much better [TS]

  considered and that's that's what my body and you know talking it out [TS]

  rambling and then distill it down or whatever but but but you know what I [TS]

  should do it anyway because he liked that Pakistan last night is going up on [TS]

  like the 20th or something about how it goes up my blog post will have been up [TS]

  for weeks but this up tomorrow but anyway i dont wanna talk about the me [TS]

  broken sci-fi I have like I have every time I think of a blog was like it you [TS]

  just can't write a blog what's the matter of two paragraphs like all have a [TS]

  great to paragraph idea and it never comes out of it though it's like nobody [TS]

  goes out four pages and pages I look back at it like two paragraphs and its [TS]

  eight it was two paragraphs and it came out as fluoride be ok but aight I feel [TS]

  like there's something going wrong so I have one very simple idea that should be [TS]

  really three sentences but then I read the story sounds as I say if you don't [TS]

  already know what I mean you don't understand the reasons expand expanding [TS]

  expand until I feel like I'm bringing until I i feel like im bringing some new [TS]

  people long who don't already know [TS]

  i'm saying you don't already agree with me so what we gonna not talk about it [TS]

  that no I'm not going to talk about Marco just blogging this is now the site [TS]

  did that if I mentioned it all you decide yet everyone knows that stupid [TS]

  right to my blog post I think I think with the think everyone has been talking [TS]

  about what they could do with the Mac Pro every six months there's a way of a [TS]

  discussion about it and so many people think that it's kind of weird modular [TS]

  thing where you get a bunch of Mac minis and check them by a some mystery [TS]

  thunderbolts fast enough to do anything meaningful with the PlayStation 3 is [TS]

  gonna be like with the Cell processor runs together to make your games like [TS]

  better did you hear about that and it's just like it doesn't like all these fans [TS]

  who the people have about this in addition to having a lot of technical [TS]

  challenges mostly involving the speed and bandwidth of the connectors between [TS]

  the between the individual parts but it also just amazingly complicated really [TS]

  inelegant to set up like what I hate about the iMac is that once you have [TS]

  some kind of powerful demanded an iMac usually end up having to discover new [TS]

  hard drive enclosures and all these like all these bolt-on thing shutting the [TS]

  outside are connected to it that with a Mac Pro just put inside and and it's you [TS]

  know end with many advantages there so I feel any any move towards less internal [TS]

  storage less internal capacity for expansion any move in that direction [TS]

  really eliminates quite a lot of the Mac Pros appeal and a lot of people just you [TS]

  know they don't they don't really distinguish between the Z online and the [TS]

  regular consumers CPU line but that's also a very important distinction [TS]

  because like to see online means you can have two sockets and lots of RAM slots [TS]

  and you get all sorts of benefits like ECC RAM but she knows it just makes your [TS]

  computer a little bit more stable again a little bit less likely to have some [TS]

  problems down the road [TS]

  or it you know it'll crash in a little kernel panic like three fewer times in [TS]

  its lifespan but does not really matter to you if there's all sorts of these [TS]

  benefits that you get with this with the server great components with these giant [TS]

  expensive motherboards with these giant PCI Express slots at have really really [TS]

  high bandwidth you know if you have if you if you wanna do multiple video cards [TS]

  to have like six monitors you can do that with a Mac pretty can't do anything [TS]

  else so there's there's all these like this all these like edge cases that with [TS]

  the macro you can do all of them most people don't need all of them but a lot [TS]

  of people need one of them I feel like my blog post kind of made it sound like [TS]

  I that I thought that the iMac could solve these problems and and it can't my [TS]

  point with the blog post was not that I have the iMac is good enough for most [TS]

  Mac Pro customers necessarily but that it's good enough it's a good enough [TS]

  solution for Apple to release to address most of these customers not it not [TS]

  saying that and that's that's a weird distinction to make but like it's it's [TS]

  good enough for Apple to deal with them by just releasing this and you know as a [TS]

  user has lots of like that I as a user can say I would like as much and almost [TS]

  everybody has responded saying like I work in video or work in science or [TS]

  something like that I i working something where that would suck in some [TS]

  way and that's true but there's already tons of small markets that Apple doesn't [TS]

  address because usually cause they're too small and their relatives [TS]

  unprofitable you know if if a whole bunch of high-end workstation users had [TS]

  to switch to Windows but many of them already have four different video [TS]

  editing program since Apple pissed off all the video editors of Final Cut Pro [TS]

  10 like if if some of these people have to switch to Windows for their video [TS]

  editing needs i dont the Apple cares that much like if they can afford it [TS]

  easily they will but like I think that that's that's specialized market is it [TS]

  something Apple's willing to lose I don't be sad to see my tower with the [TS]

  server hardware go because I don't know if I can be attributed to it having [TS]

  server grade components in it [TS]

  this machine has been so incredibly reliable my 2008 Mac Pro it has been the [TS]

  most reliable probably the most reliable computer have ever owned BC of my [TS]

  favorite Mac ever the SEC 30 that had some reliability problems mostly related [TS]

  to the fact that I had a color video card shoved in it which is something I [TS]

  have never foresaw so some flaky issues there and had had a bum power supply [TS]

  early on but like this Mac Pro has just been a hundred percent champ like [TS]

  nothing has gone wrong and I think I had one bad game that went wrong when it [TS]

  went wrong it was so obvious that it went wrong you could still like the [TS]

  machine Buddha but I just had less RAM and a little thing and it show which [TS]

  bank wasn't showing up you know it was just like everything worked exactly the [TS]

  way it's supposed to put a million different hard drives in and I've added [TS]

  to the RAM never any problems with noise heat no fan bearings and gone bad you [TS]

  know just nothing like and I i cant imagine a machine replacing it being [TS]

  more satisfying than it was when it was new you know oh yeah [TS]

  in 2008 I can and it was cheap it was before they were like super duper [TS]

  expensive her crappy think its obvious and I i turnovers because it because [TS]

  he's here and is it because the CPUs are relatively under clock to what they [TS]

  could possibly the clock to is because the cooling of such overkill because of [TS]

  the case [TS]

  g5 you know like whatever it is about it is going to do said go are going to be a [TS]

  dick is not going to leave my house of course yeah man I sold my soul my [TS]

  version of a computer to Dan and a hundred and forty bucks to ship it to [TS]

  him it's you know it's it's a fact the Mac Pros a fantastic computer for these [TS]

  type of users like I like I don't ever see myself going laptop full time and [TS]

  being happy with it you know I did it I did it last year for a while and and it [TS]

  was ok but there are just so many downsides to it for me and so many [TS]

  little annoyances like you I mention a neutral that I like every to be stock [TS]

  and clean that's why he hadn't discovered and buyers hard drive [TS]

  enclosures like i dont i dont wanna have two full-time million different things [TS]

  to make my computer fast and stable and having space for what I'm using it for [TS]

  and yeah but couldn't you just get like one of those absurdly overpriced [TS]

  Thunderbolt docs not done well I could but you can't you can't you can't put a [TS]

  video card game behind right and you know there's a lot of people for whom [TS]

  that solves the problem like a lot of video editors don't use internal storage [TS]

  for their projects they use external drives in with you know raid 0 and then [TS]

  they have a fighting chance cards I mean a lot of them [TS]

  not not as the big production houses but like a lot of smaller shops and small [TS]

  individual video editors [TS]

  users like external og driverless vehicle that does the high-end [TS]

  enclosures are made of metal and just have to consume drugs and those you know [TS]

  I think most people like it's not so much that they need a Mac Pro is that [TS]

  they need a machine that's built with the philosophy of the Mac Pro in terms [TS]

  of like reliability like it's you know it's not they're paying for they'd [TS]

  rather pay more for something that would be reliable than pay less for something [TS]

  that's just as good but is made sort of two consumer spec right now and that's [TS]

  why I'm that way too I would like it my computer gets flaky that is a severe [TS]

  problem for me in so many ways you know it'd be a problem for this podcast [TS]

  podcast may be a problem with my work and my clothing if I have to be randomly [TS]

  rebooting every every few days for some weird issue for some weird reason that's [TS]

  a severe disruption that adds up and you know for people who who that really is [TS]

  attractive to it is worth it to pay more to get a high-end tower especially like [TS]

  any said these things last forever in your 2008 Mac Pro is still pretty good [TS]

  today by today's standards my you know my 2010-2010 Mac Pro is still the [TS]

  fastest Mac foremost single-threaded tasks and among the fastest max for [TS]

  anything paralyzed double [TS]

  I'm still playing games that are released this year even though I have [TS]

  you know the 8800 is not a good video card it's still you know it's better [TS]

  than what you get on a Macbook and maybe on anymore but but certainly for maybe [TS]

  not a MacBook Pro MacBook people by like when you get a [TS]

  get the laptop off to college they get a MacBook because the parent just wanna [TS]

  get the laptop and you can't play modern games not thing and Here I am with my [TS]

  2008 computer and I can play them right i mean for us that's the kind of [TS]

  investment I wanna make I wanna that's why we want to get the biggest tightest [TS]

  asses but are they have to stick it in a box about the RAM slots may get reliable [TS]

  and give me internal storage and when you when you do want to get rid of the [TS]

  computer if you have a few if you if you saw the computer in the next year you'll [TS]

  still get like over $1000 for it I don't sell my children are you lease puppies [TS]

  into the attic I think it's something to do with this nineteen years later their [TS]

  star if it didn't take so much power output in the basement and make a video [TS]

  server something that was the problem with old with all hardware is like it's [TS]

  not worth the power or heat or noise if you keep my Mac minis like I would I [TS]

  would put it all back many in the basement if I ever had buyers Mac Mini [TS]

  but yeah she was a problem I have with the Mac Pro having never owned one is [TS]

  that it seems contrary to everything that Apple wants you know even within [TS]

  the laptop line now RAM is getting slaughtered on the board and and hard [TS]

  drives are getting slaughtered on the board but what I'm driving it is [TS]

  everything about all the consumer grade max even the MacBook Pros there for the [TS]

  purpose of this conversation and pricing that is consumer grade all of those are [TS]

  becoming more and more integrated to use the overly just to cite the overused [TS]

  word and in the Mac Pro is is contrary to all of them and that's if consumers [TS]

  don't want crap in their way they do not like the stars tell my sister and I [TS]

  convinced her to find your place or she had a sunflower iMac another little [TS]

  stand thingy and she was alright without one and then upgrade to get you know [TS]

  that the flat-panel ones and she was her favorite thing about the computer was [TS]

  that we put on our desks are to get us up she says where's the computer I said [TS]

  that's it that's all there is that's great because that's what I always [TS]

  wanted I just want to screen I don't want some other thing in my life the [TS]

  gets in the way of me doing something recognize that they need to screen you [TS]

  need something to look at [TS]

  mouse and keyboard but do I need anything else now and so that's why the [TS]

  iMac you know making the iMac go away [TS]

  consumers love that and the Mac Pro is the opposite of that because it's the [TS]

  opposite of going away it's humongous it's you know it you can't even fit on a [TS]

  desk is it all just dominate you and that's it [TS]

  anti-consumer because consumers did not want to see crap like that whereas if [TS]

  you're someone who needs a Mac Pro or someone who wants it for to play games [TS]

  or whatever you are the type of person who is willing to accept that intrusion [TS]

  into your life of this big space heater so much of the Mac Pro commentary that [TS]

  before Mike from tech blog and writers and stuff so much of the commentary that [TS]

  focuses on I wanted to get smaller I want to get sleeker that some people who [TS]

  have never owned one and the people who own them usually love them and usually [TS]

  don't care how big it is because it's it's it's it's out of sight League you [TS]

  talking away under the desk and you don't really like my MacPro got thirty [TS]

  percent thinner I wouldn't even notice I can stand for it I can see it like I [TS]

  don't see them because I wanna take up less room but I'm like you know what the [TS]

  author of the space for two optical drives and you know you convert some of [TS]

  the storage area to be taking SSDs instead of 3.5 inch discs and like that [TS]

  point maybe maybe you're wasting space maybe you can slam it down and some of [TS]

  it is also like fashion like I would be interested in seeing a new fashion [TS]

  iteration considering we've been with this case for a long time but it's not [TS]

  like I'm saying glom at all to the back of the LCD cuz i dont want to my way [TS]

  like this a dedicated spot on the floor where it goes I could put something [TS]

  slightly smaller there but I will be fine they kept the same way that's why [TS]

  we're desperate like bargaining please just give us a new one that's not crap [TS]

  but I like and also like you know a lot of the people who make arguments about [TS]

  it or have theories about it or who judge it unfairly don't realize how [TS]

  expensive Xeons are you know they'll say oh this thing is over priced actually [TS]

  surprised but not Apple's fault Intel exactly [TS]

  exactly like if you if you look at any other stage because like they charge so [TS]

  much money for what is like a piece of crap computer at this point that's an [TS]

  out apple sold the fighting is Intel still charges that bush for I know but I [TS]

  had enough like write something build your own Mac Pro ok so tell us by let's [TS]

  pretend we buy the process is it retail price which Apple does right and then [TS]

  attempt by the RAM retail price doesn't pretend about all the parts that retail [TS]

  you like boy that case must cost $1200 to make it does not add up no it doesn't [TS]

  add up but but it isn't as far off as a lot of people think and the add-on once [TS]

  you go to like okay I wanna pumping up to dual socket with a 2.66 hurts then [TS]

  look at the difference that cost like 1500 dollars extra what the hell and [TS]

  then you look actually Intel charges like $1200 more for the for the CPA but [TS]

  you know and I think it's it's just suck sure it is such a beast but if you did [TS]

  anything to really slim it down like if you eliminated a few drive bays or if [TS]

  you made it like single socket only we should see a lot of space in the bottom [TS]

  then you are you are limiting who will buy it like you are taking people who [TS]

  used to buy Mac Pros and and you are really significantly reducing their [TS]

  motivation by Matt Brogan and and that's why you think like I do hope that Apple [TS]

  keeps it around I do hope that the next revision has some kind of solution for [TS]

  retina on the desktop hopefully they will release some kind of retina Cinema [TS]

  Display and then there'll be some kind of insane video card in the new Mac Pro [TS]

  that can drive it for some insane price premium probably but you know I'm hoping [TS]

  that's where they're going with this [TS]

  it'll be the Apple 15 entering the cinema display just what you wanted [TS]

  right [TS]

  like traveling back in time and the thing that I can't reconcile it in my [TS]

  head is that to me as a non pro pattern on Mac Pro users can send on Pro Mac [TS]

  user because I'm laptop is sufficient for me it seems so obvious to me that [TS]

  the Mac Pro just cannot continue in any even vaguely similar forms the way it is [TS]

  now because everything Apple is doing is is going in the other direction I know I [TS]

  just said that but it's just like the like first of all it is a very high [TS]

  margin product they don't make a whole lot but it is high margin and they could [TS]

  they could even raise the price premium by another 500 bucks per case and we'd [TS]

  all still by the most may prove as we continue to buy them even if the price [TS]

  premium was even bigger so they saw it the profitability angle of them i think [TS]

  is probably covered I don't I don't think if they treat it as a unit of the [TS]

  company I don't think it'll be losing money but a lot of people say oh well [TS]

  you know doesn't sell very many they should just cut it out [TS]

  well there are some very many Macs relative to iPhones and iPads but no one [TS]

  saying you should stop selling max [TS]

  some people say that most people like it's it's not like people people tend to [TS]

  develop these rules in their head about how Apple works and how and how to make [TS]

  decisions and when I wrote about the iPhone + speculation and like so many [TS]

  people there are going to add another SKU that's not the way they do things [TS]

  you know that that is how to do these when it makes sense as the iPhone math [TS]

  market [TS]

  so so yeah like you know people have these all these theories [TS]

  armchair Apple com interview she has granted we all are but like the armchair [TS]

  commentators will have will come up with some rule that Apple will always follow [TS]

  and in practice there are very few of those rules Apple briggstone rules all [TS]

  the time and so many decisions Apple makes are inconsistent with previous [TS]

  decisions they've made in future decisions they will make that you can't [TS]

  say oh well they're gonna get rid of this Lanka's they sell any of them you [TS]

  know that that doesn't necessarily mean it should get rid of something or they [TS]

  were speaking of the iPhone plus we should start thinking now of how how [TS]

  Apple is going to be seen enough these presentations are what does that put up [TS]

  on the slides when they introduced the the iPhone with a bigger screen like [TS]

  what's the what's the how do you sell that I would say they're gonna put it [TS]

  right between the iPhone iPad iPod and they had like the iPhone and one side [TS]

  and laptop on the other like working going between these things right nor the [TS]

  competition which of course is all that site and then just say here's an iPhone [TS]

  here's an iPad you know we think there's room for something in the way steve Jobs [TS]

  was his his dirty way to do it would be kind of like we made the iPhone and we [TS]

  thought the size was just perfect and you know we decided that they would like [TS]

  a little bigger so we made it a little bit taller and you know if you want a [TS]

  bigger screen there you go again some people say they still wanted to be [TS]

  bigger and so here you like every time it's like what we what we made was [TS]

  perfect but you people just kept asking if we made at all if that wasn't enough [TS]

  for you so fine years like kind of a kind of way like that's one way would go [TS]

  the other way to go with this pretend you never said all those things in the [TS]

  past about the iPhone size being appropriately sized and just say here's [TS]

  the new iPhone got a beautiful display it's you know 4.5 inches or whatever the [TS]

  heck did and now and now they're not going to say anything about it and it's [TS]

  great and you know you don't have in your own presentation you are not [TS]

  obliged to address the fact that the previous ones had smores [TS]

  means yes and you know it's it's it's a new phone and it's great and here is a [TS]

  look at this beautiful display you know and not just give you the measurement of [TS]

  this play they don't need to mention that measurements larger than the other [TS]

  one of course it'll be the same Res [TS]

  whole nine yards if they continue to solve the old size as well then they [TS]

  might have to mention it I think it's all those because that's like with with [TS]

  the iPhone 5 vs 24 s like they're not gonna keep both of those sizes around [TS]

  forever you know once the 4 S's is out of the cycle of being a cheap phone you [TS]

  know they're not gonna keep that size going somehow but I think the iPhone 5 [TS]

  size that will likely that the primary iPhone size or or one of the guys will [TS]

  always be that ballpark and if they have a bigger one it'll always be that [TS]

  ballpark also like the because you know you could the forests of the five is [TS]

  such a small difference in the outside dimensions of the phone and the five is [TS]

  is so much thinner and lighter I mean a lot of people with the for us look at [TS]

  the five and they're angry cuz they bought the for us not the five or [TS]

  they're angry that the the upgrade would be too expensive or something and they [TS]

  want to justify keeping the for us not getting the 525 suck that big keeps [TS]

  these houses around forever [TS]

  most people though who have who who who have owned the previous phones whoever [TS]

  picked up and held a five are like oh my gosh this is I want this and even that [TS]

  is not everybody can do that most people recognize that the five overall is [TS]

  better and that if the for us went away and the fire was the smallest iPhone you [TS]

  can buy very few people would say I want something smaller [TS]

  you know it's it's pretty great so you know but so that I see them keeping it [TS]

  around but if they only made the big one [TS]

  I think you have a lot of people to manage something smaller than I after [TS]

  after reading and easier reading and Android conversions to have it ready yet [TS]

  know but it's i've seen some clothes in it so it does seem pretty compelling so [TS]

  one of the things he brought up which I hadn't thought about too much as far as [TS]

  I i was a scene and ease and he's always going to the phones that he's testing [TS]

  right and you know since they're not they're bigger [TS]

  and one of the things I had noticed is a nicely using the underside of playing [TS]

  with him fooling around that he brought up the thing is not so much like the [TS]

  bigger screen is nice which is true and you know we know all the people who like [TS]

  bigger screens people who have vision problems people just like it bigger but [TS]

  that Android in particular does something with larger screens that I was [TS]

  probably going to have slightly more difficult to doing which is it uses the [TS]

  larger screen to actually show more information like the phone with larger [TS]

  screens have larger resolutions so you don't be absurd to show more stuff [TS]

  whereas we're also making a bigger iPhone is just simply gonna be alright [TS]

  same res but just bigger which is which gives you half of what a big screen can [TS]

  do but Andy saying what made him go over is not so much just as hard as I saw his [TS]

  mind right but that apps on that phone for the big screen showed more stuff and [TS]

  we're designed to have more stuff on the screen not so many like more items in [TS]

  list view but just like more context in the side and just more room for [TS]

  information it wasn't simply the same image you see in a small android screen [TS]

  may have larger because your vision is bad you know so that half of the [TS]

  equation I'm not sure when Apple can do that because all of its user interfaces [TS]

  and all the iPhone apps are designed for a thumb reaching around the screen like [TS]

  and by making it bigger [TS]

  yeah it's easier to see but you don't get sick advantage of the next room [TS]

  because you're keeping the rest seem to keep your you know the developer I [TS]

  wonder how high was 16 jurors auto layout which is way more capable and [TS]

  mature and flexible than the old auto auto sizing system they had in place so [TS]

  now like the the frameworks are are getting in place for iOS apps to be more [TS]

  flexible sizes and has always had that because Android phones have always been [TS]

  a wide variety of sizes so you know andrea is is like all the apps are [TS]

  designed least the good ones are designed to to be pretty flexible with [TS]

  the size that they're willing to render added and will work out just because [TS]

  they've always had to so that is definitely an advantage but you know I [TS]

  wonder like how Apple will do this in the future like that they're they're [TS]

  laying the groundwork with auto layout and [TS]

  and by having the iPhone 4 and the five dispute these two different sizes like [TS]

  they're laying the groundwork for a future where we can more easily support [TS]

  more sizes and and iOS developers expect that and do that but it does add so much [TS]

  complexity and it is so much harder to design apps that way that I wonder if [TS]

  they're ever gonna pull the trigger and and you know make things there a wider [TS]

  variety of sizes I think I think they'll be forced to eventually and I think the [TS]

  way they'll get away with it because the stumbling block is not so much going to [TS]

  be the absolute like assuming you know everyone gets on the auto bailout train [TS]

  and everyone's head to trial run with making their apps taller right which you [TS]

  don't necessarily need to adopt all that you do but you know it's it's pretty [TS]

  easy to write but the sticking block is always games right and what I think [TS]

  they're going to do with games you i think is designed for a fix screens guys [TS]

  I'm not using any real you I just a big OpenGL view right you know what I think [TS]

  they going to do with their with with games is what the same thing they did on [TS]

  the retina MacBook Pros which is like they did this intently there was no [TS]

  reason therefore systematic approach but they did they said okay well so you have [TS]

  native retina size but we also have a size it's even bigger than that and [TS]

  we'll just scale your whole freakin screamin and put it in the retina [TS]

  that's gonna look horrible and I'll see vietnam native res but it turns out if [TS]

  you make the pics are small enough it is not as horrible as you might think so [TS]

  what do you what do you do with the games that don't update on your big [TS]

  screen you just scale them and you would think it would look hideous and doesn't [TS]

  look as good as it could but because the pics is so small you are not incredibly [TS]

  sore that I can only keep the aspect ratio the same all this came as an [TS]

  update for the iPhone 70 doesn't show any new information all doesn't scale [TS]

  the one that used to run on the iPhone 6 you know it scales it horizontally and [TS]

  vertically in proportion and now fills my screen and maybe the game guide never [TS]

  has to go back and port and going forward we can make games that work at [TS]

  all the different resins natively but he never has to back for that and then [TS]

  everyone else just deals with the other layout issues and and try something nice [TS]

  one of the apps though is that designers have been accustomed to before the [TS]

  iPhone 5 came out [TS]

  designer really accustomed to having like pixel perfect control over the [TS]

  whole screen knowing that [TS]

  every iPhone every iPhone / iPod Touch app would always have a screen at [TS]

  exactly the shape example this physical size of this resolution so they could [TS]

  like they could design the entire app as like one bitmap basically and web [TS]

  developers used to make a web pages that of HTML tables with sliced up images but [TS]

  the right and so like you know now right now with the iPhone 5 they've broken [TS]

  that for a lot of apps and games and that this doesn't fit games to with with [TS]

  you I know not necessarily but the domain but the main with the main [TS]

  viewport of the game into the engine can be most can be different sizes in most [TS]

  cases without too much work but like the the you I usually can't so you know that [TS]

  that is challenging for games and apps alike but you know once they've got [TS]

  people accustomed to it but the iPhone 5 and you know maybe maybe now it'll be [TS]

  easier and people start adapting also stylistically like our what's in fashion [TS]

  right now and design is moving out of those extremely detailed picture perfect [TS]

  textures and into flat design which scales in two different aspect ratios [TS]

  way easier probably over by the way back to making everything look like the [TS]

  bottom would help now the thing that we're not on the same thought train the [TS]

  you guys you guys areare is everyone I've ever spoken to be fair is a very [TS]

  small sample size but everyone I've ever spoken to who's tried auto layout has [TS]

  not had good things to say and I think what's it been since I just posted [TS]

  something I think it's not allowed to demand that solo plus I B I totally [TS]

  agree with the bright side note I've seen that interaction with people try to [TS]

  do so because I can't figure out how it works in interface so I just don't use [TS]

  the old system gets it good enough for my needs so I guess maybe the answer is [TS]

  that we use the one is a visual format language or whatever we all start [TS]

  drawing ASCII art I think it's a bit of a learning curve and maybe maybe a bill [TS]

  that learning curve if you know the old system well enough that it's not worth [TS]

  it for you to climate but like I mean what brand said is like the way it has [TS]

  to be like when you lay something out [TS]

  with a GUI tool like auto layout is not going to leave leave in like sort of an [TS]

  open-ended question it's going to you had to have sort of it has to behave in [TS]

  a certain way to be deterministic so it's going to add the missing constraint [TS]

  that you're not yet specified and if you don't know what all those implicit [TS]

  constraints the detecting for you are you like why didn't have that constraint [TS]

  like well you need something there to balance the equation so the thing knows [TS]

  what it's supposed to do when you resize right and that can be frustrating but I [TS]

  think if you if you really really new auto me out he will be obvious to you [TS]

  what implicit constraints enterprise builder is adding and you wouldn't be [TS]

  surprised by when you lay something out that allowed interest builder and one [TS]

  constraint and see how it behaves because you know what all the other ones [TS]

  would have to be to fill it and like i mean there's still room for variation in [TS]

  there that I B could be adding things that you don't think it should close the [TS]

  equation in a different way or whatever but I think it's it's a it's a solvable [TS]

  problem in a politically on until they get something that works reasonably well [TS]

  also it's kind of a chicken and egg thing like right now most apps are able [TS]

  to adapt the iPhone 5 without significant changes because it just [TS]

  stretched vertically and and if any Apple has a scrollable like a vertical [TS]

  scroll content area in the middle of the table view our list app that was a [TS]

  really easy transition from us to make so it wasn't that painful to adapt the [TS]

  iPhone 5 once we if they would add a whole new resolution that was wider and [TS]

  taller you know that that was different both mentioned even if it's a different [TS]

  aspect ratio than that and even more complexity if if they do that then it's [TS]

  gonna be so much work to add a Pilates abs to it then maybe it'll motivate [TS]

  developers to convert to auto layout or to start using it for new projects [TS]

  whereas now the value proposition is not strong for it was like well the old [TS]

  system works well enough for so many cases and we already know it and we only [TS]

  have to support two devices and it's fairly easy to support them both now so [TS]

  you know it's it's it's a lot less compelling now do you remember I'm [TS]

  trying to remember the earlier demonstrably Dec to go to the session [TS]

  they did [TS]

  so like I'm trying to think of if they have the ability to do the same way like [TS]

  ok so now when they were showing on the Mac but like so now when you're when [TS]

  your window is little bigger suddenly new information and/or UI elements come [TS]

  into existence that weren't previously there sort of like responsive design [TS]

  when they have an application disappear in stepping up supporters that's because [TS]

  that's what you really need for like you know you're trying to avoid a situation [TS]

  where we have now is like ok I make my app for the iPod and the iPhone and then [TS]

  I have to you know if I'm going to do a good job I can do different you I forgot [TS]

  that is just so different in size you can't just take the phone thing scaling [TS]

  up well if you have a larger iPhone like getting back to Andy's point if you [TS]

  really want to an awesome job for those people USA ok now I have more room to [TS]

  put stuff I shouldn't really just take my iphone screen make sure everything [TS]

  like scales correctly [TS]

  fact they have room for another button here I have room for ancillary display [TS]

  with some other information you know like that's what the triple-a guys are [TS]

  gonna do and the question is if they're doing that these are allowed a factor or [TS]

  do they just make three different views that regular iPhone the bigger iPhone [TS]

  and the iPad and if it has the ability to simply let people say ok here is the [TS]

  iPhone wanted you make it a little bit bigger you know another control cousins [TS]

  of you and other like display thing and then also have to do another way out for [TS]

  the iPad I bet most good developers are especially good people good designers [TS]

  like most good developers will want to code those separately anyway because a [TS]

  lot of time is even if it's like it if it's ok we'll we'll show or hide these [TS]

  controls or rearrange them even then a lot of times the iPad interface probably [TS]

  should work even more differently than that and and so I think we're always [TS]

  going to have people who that's the idea saying from the small phone to the hell [TS]

  yeah and that's a smaller jump hopefully in and what what you want to be [TS]

  different so I could take care of that in a lot of cases I'm sure but I still [TS]

  think so many people are gonna wanna custom design things you know to to just [TS]

  be more different than what the layout engine is is capable [TS]

  writing and it has a car as the old curmudgeon syndrome like if you know how [TS]

  the rail out works is it worth it to you to learn how the art because then all [TS]

  you're doing is like you're going through an abstraction layer thus [TS]

  preventing you from just setting the things that you know you want to set in [TS]

  some cases are aware can do things that you would have to write code for and [TS]

  that's the kind of case we like my writing the stupid train layout code to [TS]

  recalculate the distances between these things based on their it's like you know [TS]

  springs and struts can't do it but our layout can all that is saving you from [TS]

  manually writing that coach just some stupid math on points to figure out how [TS]

  far things are and that's that's the type of thing that probably with Gemma [TS]

  well-lit areas you say if you didn't have allowed the amount of code you how [TS]

  to write for this would make you not want to use this feature and it would [TS]

  make it would make you not make your layout actress weblog how easy it isn't [TS]

  allowed vs like I could do springs and struts there's no reason for me to lay [TS]

  out its just getting in my way or the other thing that I find interesting [TS]

  about a layout is although I like I said earlier I haven't heard a lot of people [TS]

  sing its praises I certainly haven't heard a lot of people say this is [TS]

  supposed to work but doesn't [TS]

  iCloud you know if it doesn't seem like the technology is bad it's just a big [TS]

  learning curve like both you guys have been saying whereas iCloud seems to have [TS]

  somewhat of a big learning curve and it's a piece of crap so that you can [TS]

  learn anything it doesn't act news API and a framework on your system you have [TS]

  a fighting chance figuring out but when you're communicating to black box over [TS]

  the network and you can't figure out why it works the way it does just this it is [TS]

  a it does not converge on a solution will elect when Apple makes new API's [TS]

  and and frameworks and things like that you know they're they're solving a [TS]

  number of problems with these API's some of them appear to be designed not [TS]

  necessarily for everyone to use like as their new default of how they build [TS]

  things but for rapid development or 44 less sophisticated developers to get [TS]

  something working well and quickly so I think one of the biggest examples of [TS]

  this is our Christmas story boards like arc is a really great feature that they [TS]

  obviously want everybody to use its [TS]

  there's really very few downsides to it overall and and even power users you [TS]

  know even very skilled developers will get a lot of value of using arc with [TS]

  almost no downsides story boards are a very restrictive and limited structure [TS]

  that your app uses they can save a lot of time for rapid development or for [TS]

  less experienced developers they can save tons of time in and provide a nicer [TS]

  framework for certain things but there's there so limited that a lot of high-end [TS]

  developers really can't use them for much and and so you know maybe maybe [TS]

  auto layout is no not not quite to the level of storyboards and maybe it's like [TS]

  not quite to the level of Arc either it's you know it's there for for people [TS]

  to to use maybe sometimes or as they go forward maybe new developers learn this [TS]

  maybe it isn't intended to capture a lot of the other developers quite yet [TS]

  because you know maybe the value isn't quite that clear on it and certainly you [TS]

  know once you have one of those situations where you're laying out [TS]

  something with the old system that's really a pain to do it once you have on [TS]

  the situation then you start learning it but I think there's a there's very [TS]

  there's very little reason for developers to convert things to auto [TS]

  layout if they're working fine spring struts or delay or 22 absolutely vital a [TS]

  for everything in the next project like it might not make sense to do that yet [TS]

  maybe says the circles that we travel in the people who read but like the number [TS]

  of people who have a grumpy face about I B which is not like a fancy new [TS]

  technology comes from the next day is right there are like magic are just [TS]

  doing code oh yeah that's like it just shows that sometimes no matter how that [TS]

  was a big selling point in the next days like looking into rebuilding its amazing [TS]

  right you know some people just that I'd rather just do it in codon you know [TS]

  that's just what they would rather do and you're not gonna make it no matter [TS]

  how nice you make the tool if people don't want to chill it does that is not [TS]

  solving a problem they think they have there like [TS]

  auto layout even if they make it awesome and perfect just like and availability [TS]

  some people say I preferred just doing code and they well and Interface Builder [TS]

  I've always thought has been like comically unintuitive and like my [TS]

  background as Casey knows because he was there my my background was Visual Basic [TS]

  and you know Microsoft has a lot of things badly I got it got to give them [TS]

  credit for that they do so many things badly it's quite impressive however [TS]

  their development tools are really good and they're especially good at not not [TS]

  having a really huge learning curve to get started on something and Visual [TS]

  Basic and any now of course we were sophisticated with other new stuff like [TS]

  I started as a basic with version 1.0 literally visualize it 110 and even then [TS]

  it was really easy to use you dragged out of control and I double click it and [TS]

  there's the function like it so it was so easy to use that I could figure it [TS]

  out as an extreme novice like in 7th Grade you know who's really did have a [TS]

  great Interface Builder has so many weird little things about it [TS]

  weird behaviour that are necessary you know it's not like oh you're gonna have [TS]

  some advanced need at some point you might need to know this [TS]

  know it's like if you're going to use this to do anything at all you need to [TS]

  do is weird things about it that are very intuitive like and it's always been [TS]

  that way and they they keep saying it's getting better and in some ways it gets [TS]

  better and then head to new things that you need to learn some weird way so it [TS]

  really Interface Builder has never been particularly easy to use and Casey I'm [TS]

  curious cause you've come to this way more recently than John and I have what [TS]

  do you think of interviews builder like how you said you had those problems and [TS]

  and you have used the Microsoft stuff more recently cuz you are you were a [TS]

  Windows guy for so long at work and you still are kind of what do you think [TS]

  about this comparison i think for the most part I agree with what you said I [TS]

  don't have any heat for Interface Builder and I think that largely comes [TS]

  from the fact that a I haven't done you know years upon years of iOS development [TS]

  and be [TS]

  all the development of done is tended to be with reasonably simple and [TS]

  straightforward user interfaces I i dont I do agree though that it is not [TS]

  intuitive like when you were talking about how you drag a button on 24 min [TS]

  and current Windows Forms parlance apartments have you pronounce that word [TS]

  et cetera regardless you just drop it on a formidable clicking there's your [TS]

  messages like you're saying whereas with Interface Builder as you're describing [TS]

  this and thinking well how does that work in interface bode well you have to [TS]

  have something on the header or perhaps the the code I'm file that is an idea [TS]

  action and I be out late will wait what's the difference between the two oh [TS]

  well you see I B action as a function error message in an IP outlet is where [TS]

  you just want to have a reference in its already it's like oh my god shut up so I [TS]

  don't think it's terrible I don't have a problem with Interface Builder but I [TS]

  would agree with everything you said about the Microsoft Developer Tools [TS]

  really are good and it's funny because i've been teaching a co-worker Objective [TS]

  C and cocoa and whatnot and he's really enjoyed it and got over the ugly ugly [TS]

  ugly syntax a lot quicker than I did but one of the things that it's hysterical [TS]

  to watch is when he's trying to figure out what the right method is to do [TS]

  something like for example to make a string lower case rather than go to the [TS]

  documentation what does he do it [TS]

  yeah he uses his windows a student at like that like that's the programming in [TS]

  anything done it for the first time you can all you need to know is the first [TS]

  word system is still system yet so yeah like you can you can know nothing about [TS]

  the language of programming error dat idea program against Alize language of [TS]

  course I was thing but you can do nothing about the FBI of her game [TS]

  against and just typing system . and just start there and you will probably [TS]

  find unique yeah you're absolutely right and that's the funny thing is watching [TS]

  him use Xcode crummy intellisense I note I called intellisense for whatever they [TS]

  call it and it's gotten better like I remember everyone freaking out at WWDC [TS]

  they were so excited when they when somebody announced that [TS]

  when you start typing an assss rather than what was streams yeah I was just [TS]

  trying to remember what the what the bad match was I can do is it was an extreme [TS]

  right or SAT maybe I was trying to form the great for I was going to type [TS]

  NSString and as steve Beshear he's annoying as prime minister yeah whatever [TS]

  it was it was dessert because they finally got the autocomplete to the [TS]

  point that it sort of made sense but it's not a great documentation browser [TS]

  where is done and you could you really never need to kick open any [TS]

  documentation exactly you can just sit there with intellisense and you'll find [TS]

  what you like if I'm working index could I have to have an organizer window open [TS]

  and I have to have a documentation tab and I'm going over there and searching [TS]

  in the search field like every five minutes or something like that [TS]

  any kind of built-in you know pop-up automatic documentation is usually not [TS]

  enough for what I'm looking for [TS]

  and no more I don't know looking for exactly and you know i cant are [TS]

  completed or or the autocomplete is freaking out because of something that [TS]

  it showed on a hundred lines up that I don't know about yet and it's not [TS]

  working in its [TS]

  snappers I am writing on my code the old-fashioned way I don't have [TS]

  auto-completion I just memorize every single freaking function its name and [TS]

  then the argument that's because it was all my back ends are still in PHP that's [TS]

  why I write back I'm running it on text made which doesn't really have like you [TS]

  know and tell us on skype features or if it doesn't know how to activate them and [TS]

  please don't email me I really don't care and you know I can write that way [TS]

  but it's so nice we don't have to and it really is a major productivity booster [TS]

  to have things I can tell us a sense that it you know what doing that well [TS]

  makes a really big difference to coding especially when you're new to a language [TS]

  or an ATI you're upset and i think is the part of the part of the problem [TS]

  might be there to see such a proposed language and you know method names are [TS]

  string by replacing occurrences of string with string with whatever the [TS]

  hell it is I forget what it is [TS]

  that's one letter in progress [TS]

  well let's be honest all of pearl regular one of them I think we should [TS]

  talk about that at some future package at a certain point the host names do not [TS]

  help understanding everything except once you do get familiar with Apple's [TS]

  crazy API naming style then you can start guessing the names of things [TS]

  before you know them and you can usually gets correctly at least a point where [TS]

  the Nautica you that's you know it to begin with because once you learn like [TS]

  the words for the event handlers for a will and did you know all that stuff [TS]

  like then then at least you have a fighting chance on the prefixes but the [TS]

  words that come after the prefixes that's this kind of like people writing [TS]

  all I see is that the order they put like the the adjectives and verbs and [TS]

  where the with comes in the [TS]

  like that there's a rich history of scrambling up the primary things that's [TS]

  a solution to never do this but like give give a pic cereal named parameters [TS]

  that order doesn't matter anymore you know [TS]

  be great that would be that would be too much would be different and it's funny [TS]

  the market because just today I was tryna remember for the I was working [TS]

  with my coworker who's learning the language in the API Nostrand remember [TS]

  wait how do you get a lowercase string it's not to lower thats dotnet no that's [TS]

  not how it now you know what I bet Apple would do lowercase drink it sure enough [TS]

  that's according to lower case I don't say it's true [TS]

  early today I was I had an array and I wanted to join with with a string and [TS]

  enjoying all the components this trend and so I had the array nicer and I [TS]

  started from the Erasmus having strength by AM pretty sure that was corrected [TS]

  stream by joining components with string something like that and you know because [TS]

  I I am familiar enough with Apple styles able to guess that method without [TS]

  looking it up and I was right and so once you it's and Interface Builder is [TS]

  actually very similarly [TS]

  once you get it then you can see oh ok I can see why they thought that made sense [TS]

  and now it makes sense to me and now I'm past it but don't want her to see dick [TS]

  euless rule so I understand that there were both naming thing that someone who [TS]

  has never seen Objective C before can look at that and guests that you are [TS]

  taking a string and joining a bunch of other strings with some of the string [TS]

  and they can tell which is which [TS]

  like you know me but the visual the mental visual space that that call takes [TS]

  up as compared to like as equals a dot join and then single quotes the joining [TS]

  string like maybe someone doesn't know what that means but once you know the [TS]

  language and no little bit about the basics of the API it's just that that's [TS]

  why people that's what people are literature for both things not because [TS]

  we're loading so much bad but because there's a there's a limited common [TS]

  vocabulary that people feel like should not be that verbose because it happens [TS]

  so often right and that's why a lot of Objective C code looks like a lot of [TS]

  visual stuff like squint a lot of black on the page for doing operations that [TS]

  you know in some higher-level more dynamic language like Java Script even [TS]

  or a pro review Python would just be so much sup take up so much less room and [TS]

  be so much faster to scan because you wouldn't have to read I mean like it's [TS]

  just joined map grab still there [TS]

  replace substitute instead of the big English sentences with stuff paying off [TS]

  although English sentences are substantially easier to read if you [TS]

  aren't familiar with the API they're calling a trip outside like this there's [TS]

  a there's a subset of like really super common functionality so I guess maybe we [TS]

  would have a language course I mean I don't think it's reasonable they call in [TS]

  Huffman coding where you take the things you are common and make them concise and [TS]

  as you get more esoteric you get more verbose so you know the built-in stuff [TS]

  is super duper short lowercase SLC right but there really more esoteric things [TS]

  like creating a socket with timeouts and a binding parts of that is proposed in [TS]

  this big name parameters and everything's long spelled out right [TS]

  whereas in Objective C and not the language but the API the cocoa [TS]

  foundation guys everything is your vote even like basic string functions even [TS]

  like things dealing with numbers and formatted like everything is hosted [TS]

  don't say okay people are going to change a string to lowercase way more [TS]

  often than they're gonna like set up some sort of handler for some event or [TS]

  whatever set up an ass notification center right so shouldn't one of those [TS]

  be shorter because it's gonna be more calm to be fair to learn key string [TS]

  method is one of the shortest into the long right and substitution durang [TS]

  running regular expressions matches and substituting like you know parole [TS]

  thought it was important to put syntaxin language right so did sort of JavaScript [TS]

  kind of put syntaxin language for in a couple of things too but you know ok so [TS]

  finally just received the language but the API for things that deal with [TS]

  strings are now don't have any recognition of how come they're like [TS]

  they are just as her bosses everything else although in a string is monolithic [TS]

  as hell as well as so many different we are two methods like four paths and [TS]

  getting like doesn't have data type things related to URLs and like you know [TS]

  it's like a string what do you have to do with your else well I kinda know yet [TS]

  is that there's a whole lot why do you know about euro corps the core of useful [TS]

  Foundation Classes like strike in a string and as data as a really there's [TS]

  so much a weird like ok I want to convert this to this which which object [TS]

  has that class has a method which classes and a lot of times it's not the [TS]

  one you expected to be it's not you gotta do like it you know and it within [TS]

  the past the NSString or do you call american on a string the returns from [TS]

  yeah its string to data gets me every time I always assume the wrong one has [TS]

  the method I need and I always have to spend two minutes looking for [TS]

  documentation I P string to data that's it and I P dated a string which is also [TS]

  a very common one like when dealing with Web services you get back data to get I [TS]

  use those constantly I also have a whole string category the mistake on my [TS]

  stirrings there is i i stole XPath string functions so I have some stream [TS]

  before substring after contains and few other little things like that but you [TS]

  are strings and check the news it's just even contains it's a cool way more [TS]

  compact syntax and it's not found does not equal strength range of string and [TS]

  so much more complex I'll definitely a helper for things like that I do very [TS]

  commonly URL encoding the the default method of extreme with by replacing [TS]

  percent escapes using incorrect that that big one method to convert a string [TS]

  to your own coding doesn't do it right 40 off there is that there's some [TS]

  there's a few characters that that method doesn't include that whatever RFC [TS]

  requires does require you to be encoded so I have my own IP URL encoded string [TS]

  methods and you end you know so I have weird that just save me time and the [TS]

  whole idea of having categories on classes is awesome that you can but you [TS]

  can extend the built-in system classes I think that's also love Rubio monkey [TS]

  certainly can be done badly and also haven't you heard its three letters [TS]

  please for third party using a stick with IPB never completed anything having [TS]

  to do with the technology exactly I don't understand why there are no [TS]

  namespace I mean I understand be with the runtime I know I know but [TS]

  spaces like baby steps like all these problems are talking about we solved [TS]

  that just nice high-level language but you know you know he's been bitching [TS]

  about that for you this year's gonna be type in France right so yeah it was [TS]

  lurching toward something but all that crap with the strings and the data in [TS]

  like dealing with stuff like that it's just a completely goes away if you have [TS]

  a language that has I don't need of streams and you know a little more or [TS]

  less a faire attitude about data types are you can trust you know things around [TS]

  and not worry about if it's a floater injury number I you can't do that [TS]

  language is useless I know I know all the reasons ejector seat is living on [TS]

  its way more efficient and stalin to let you know every must have their cake and [TS]

  eat it too so right now the top of the cake I honestly I like I'd like to see [TS]

  and and all that stuff with it I mean it's not perfect at but you know I think [TS]

  I think if you if you think any language is perfect you don't know it well enough [TS]

  or you or you don't have enough experience as a programmer honestly like [TS]

  and everything that has problems and shortcomings and the nature of these [TS]

  it's not really possible to design a perfect language and certainly there are [TS]

  you know I've yet to see it has a lot of ancient baggage that still carrying that [TS]

  it can probably never get rid of because of the kind of language it is but I was [TS]

  doing some pretty awesome stuff with it like a even simple things like they did [TS]

  reduce a whole lot of that boilerplate last year when they introduced compact [TS]

  syntax for you know array access dictionaries to fight that you know the [TS]

  compact primitives like they they they introduced a lot of that stuff that you [TS]

  can that they are making real progress you know making sympathize optional [TS]

  you know stuff like that like they go get rid of the double double name stuff [TS]

  with the type of answer your own have to declare the variable being of type [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  right you know then call the class method to give you a new one of those I [TS]

  don't know I just write that name of course of course that's the class that [TS]

  i'm gonna call the method on to instantiate one of those guys that the [TS]

  type of the variable I can you know so that's my next guest over what they're [TS]

  going to add but like I still feel like at a certain point you can at like eight [TS]

  of us plus a certain point you can't keep adding crap or fixing crap are [TS]

  trying to make it better [TS]

  certain point you need to do as long as it's like a sea-based language you're [TS]

  always going to have that there's gonna be a pretty pretty hard limit on a lot [TS]

  of these modern niceties that you can add to it but I mean like the transition [TS]

  I C you know putting some dead or until apples at a business is that like you [TS]

  know now you have core foundation which is just great see and you've got the [TS]

  objective CA Viz never got to deal with core foundation API's like lower level [TS]

  and it doesn't have a list of what I you know if they come up with something [TS]

  higher level than objective seat which I think high-level languages is much more [TS]

  appropriate for most of the stuff you do [TS]

  catching events figure out when they click this button bring this view [TS]

  interview like that crap does not need to be in a sea-based language just like [TS]

  just like monkey work of connecting up things and you are but there are there [TS]

  will always be parts of it that need to be in a lower level language so then you [TS]

  have like 10 you like most of my coat and whatever this high-level languages [TS]

  and then some portions of an objective CBC so much more efficient and then [TS]

  presumably some portions a stolen car foundation like it's a layer cake of [TS]

  like alright well the OpenGL crap you know still a straight capi guess that's [TS]

  really probe insensitive and then somewhere in the middle of something [TS]

  that's like it's not like high-level you I dealing with but you know it's a [TS]

  little bit lower level and then at the top you rewrite overall structure at [TS]

  most the time writing this very huggable language I could see them going to [TS]

  something like that I think those are very well though in the Indies like [TS]

  early years of of mobile computers because he knows so well that they've [TS]

  they've benefited so much from just the sheer efficiency of these of the [TS]

  sea-based languages with the things that things that benefit them early suddenly [TS]

  become right disadvantages late exactly then suddenly everyone else is less [TS]

  efficient language like the TPS ketchup and it's like all of that but that was a [TS]

  great advantage you back then [TS]

  but now not so much right now it can now that it that advantages in significant [TS]

  if not know if webOS came out five years from now it would have a better chance [TS]

  the market because it would knock slow every every wouldn't be complaining [TS]

  about its terrible battery life in 10 terrible performance you know it [TS]

  wouldn't be that big of a difference from anything else that was out there [TS]

  and I can drive in dramas disgusting right but like it in Tennessee it is [TS]

  using high-level language and it was slower for a long time and you know [TS]

  arguably Iowa still has the performance events there but the gap is really close [TS]

  at you know hardware is getting better there's more memory that the there's [TS]

  more stuff to indulge jobless foibles and if you if you believe that the [TS]

  things you don't have to worry about in Java like you know segmentation faults [TS]

  and crap like that are an advantage then suddenly Android platform in this [TS]

  particular respect becomes more attractive development you know to doing [TS]

  your development so you don't have to learn about arc you don't have to learn [TS]

  about our appointment for crying out loud is weird start for a variable names [TS]

  that new program I have no idea what they're there for nearly breaks when [TS]

  they forget her apple and the continuum of things that make someone go on a [TS]

  platform or not the crappiness is language is very low on the list as [TS]

  evidenced by the fact that all these bazillion people suddenly learning [TS]

  Objective C because that's where the money exacto alright we'll learn your [TS]

  crazy ass language with square brackets just got to my way and that's always how [TS]

  it's been accepted the web on the web you can write in pretty much anything as [TS]

  long as you can find some service offered to run it so the web has has [TS]

  tons of great languages to choose from and it really matters when you're [TS]

  writing but on a native platforms as always been like one language that on [TS]

  every end and one framework on every major native platform where like you [TS]

  really should be right things in there [TS]

  that and you know windows for a long time with has been C++ and then more [TS]

  recently it's moving into dotnet stuff you know s10 has always been Objective C [TS]

  IIS injector seal their heads for the framework so you know there's always [TS]

  always like that that that pushed if you want to help on this platform you should [TS]

  really be doing in this language everywhere except the web so if I agree [TS]

  with that is a very interesting point my my question for the to you gentlemen is [TS]

  it if you pick the lab if you were to pick the language today that would [TS]

  replace or or supplement Objective C what is it [TS]

  john has all you my water my criteria like what what what realistic bounds to [TS]

  have to stick with it here it has to be language that exists today which by the [TS]

  way I don't think Apple would necessarily play by that rule it and it [TS]

  has to it has to prevent John Siracusa from continuing to bitch about what [TS]

  languages are available from the possible platforms [TS]

  no no choices will get him to complain as little as possible which is a [TS]

  extremely lofty but theoretically plausible this is a good question [TS]

  because it makes me realize all this time I've been talking this I've never [TS]

  been pushing for Apple to adopt any existing languages have always been [TS]

  thinking the day will do their own thing like pretty much as they have been like [TS]

  Objective C at this point is their own thing like it may have started out as [TS]

  the old like at this point but whatever whatever crazy taken version number they [TS]

  apply to language they've changed it so much they completely fearless about [TS]

  changes I always imagined what everything replaced it would also be at [TS]

  their own invention exactly tailored to what they need a language too and no [TS]

  language like there's no language out there that I like well enough to say [TS]

  they should just do that one like and I and I think you're right and I think [TS]

  they would do their own thing but then that John Siracusa guy would continue to [TS]

  complain about the fact that everyone has to learn this we never complained [TS]

  about learning I've never made a single complaint about you gotta learn this [TS]

  language well here's an idea what if they are doing it already let if he also [TS]

  similarly how Objective C in its first implementations was basically a macro [TS]

  language on top of see is that accurate I've always heard that in a C++ ok I [TS]

  don't think so I think it was see anyway plus plus was was see with classes and [TS]

  it was this yes that is also true but I think Objective C started at the same [TS]

  way I don't always have to have a runtime right i mean it wasn't just [TS]

  macro library of CO 2 dunno somewhere Objective C message that had to be [TS]

  written content library to call me anyway so Objective C started out as [TS]

  like a bolt on top of C and it has matured a lot since then and you know [TS]

  the series are still all there but now he know the tools you'll never get to [TS]

  see the compilers for all native Objective C rivals riding like you know [TS]

  they're they're doing you know that is the language now what if their next big [TS]

  language is what they're doing with Objective C now that's moving towards it [TS]

  and then at some point in the future they enable some kind of new syntax mode [TS]

  where it adds a lot of stuff that we want it adds a lot of the complex stuff [TS]

  it hides pointers and things like that don't want a lot built on top of [TS]

  directive see temporarily or version one and then over time is at least you have [TS]

  to drop into that syntax to use some low-level API is but most of everything [TS]

  will be available right there like I think I think they're moving if they [TS]

  were going to replace this language in five years I don't think they'd be put [TS]

  in as much effort into it now you know they're doing radical changes to that [TS]

  the the the Objective C without the C thing seems to be the path are going on [TS]

  but this is not entirely satisfied me I'm sure they're taking into account [TS]

  with their plans but they are you listening right now you know the people [TS]

  who are making decisions on what to do disagree with me about the about what [TS]

  the ideal situation but I think they would be perfectly happy to slowly [TS]

  evolved as a QCD eventually bifurcated into abject receiver that the C part [TS]

  where safety is much more [TS]

  County then it is and you could have an unsafe you know sort of realm and then [TS]

  most people eventually get most people doing their coding in the safe part [TS]

  where you can't scribble your own memory where you just calling to Objective C [TS]

  API's and just use the escape hatch for the other stuff but I really like I [TS]

  mentioned I really think that ideally and of course you can have the idea but [TS]

  ideally a higher-level language with more safety guarantees and less [TS]

  fussiness about types wouldn't just me know we got that language are all set it [TS]

  would also necessarily imply different API like in a language with built-in [TS]

  strings you don't NSString doesn't exist is not you don't stand she had a class [TS]

  to get a string in a language that has native strengths and in a language that [TS]

  has you know language level support for regular expressions that's not like a [TS]

  library or call but not like as things get pulled into the language you [TS]

  necessarily change the way API works whole whole concept of API's change [TS]

  based on what language support so you that's why I like these bridges are some [TS]

  terrible like if you have Python have some amazing you know pythons high-level [TS]

  language but you just call the same for you guys and they don't they don't mess [TS]

  it seems like quite know what ever write a pipeline a parent like this it's so [TS]

  clear that I'm calling into an Objective C API not just because of the new [TS]

  inventions but just because of like you know you know right out [TS]

  error parameters are you pass in an error and its gonna write back to it [TS]

  like that like that doesn't happen in high-level languages cuz you know I mean [TS]

  you could you pass references and language reference but it just doesn't [TS]

  that's not how you design the API and like some hole and a string wing of the [TS]

  language just disappears and you know and then like maybe like Ruby have all [TS]

  the strings be objects and methods on them which is not the same thing I'm not [TS]

  really I could say new strength and putting [TS]

  I just feel like the language in the API are our match set and you can't change [TS]

  without changing the other if you change language sufficiently if you keep [TS]

  evolving this language to the point where it starts to become a higher level [TS]

  and more safe and less work for the developer it will be a shame if the API [TS]

  still looks like oh why is a powerhouse well used to be was just the sea-based [TS]

  language and this is the way everything will see that that I'm not sure I agree [TS]

  there because everything you just described as dotnet early still my ears [TS]

  and and I it's weird because I have no love for Microsoft but I do think don is [TS]

  actually pretty cool language and in to developer you generally speaking [TS]

  can use the win32 API without ever touching C C++ or C because dotnet [TS]

  consumes all of that and access the bridge and I don't even when I'm calling [TS]

  into these API's I don't need to worry about pointers on hand but i dont need [TS]

  two generals piano need to worry about any of that crap because dotnet has [TS]

  encapsulated all of it in and is putting a facade in front of its own have to [TS]

  worry about that that being said if I have an old capi that I wanna call C++ [TS]

  API wanna call i campi invoke into it and I can say hey there's a deal here [TS]

  here's the structure of the method I need to call in and I can even do it on [TS]

  safely and I have an unsafe keyword where I can manage my own memory and all [TS]

  that crap so everything you just described believe it or not is done now [TS]

  I am I dot net and I think is way far ahead of where Apple is [TS]

  technologically speaking maybe not necessarily AP Iowa's because Microsoft [TS]

  seems to have more trouble figure out what it wants out of an API sticking to [TS]

  it I remember what what iteration of you know how you use this tool kit for you I [TS]

  say they have no problems there but like the CLR and the whole idea behind it [TS]

  that is a foundation that if Apple had that foundation now and it was [TS]

  performing the need to put as much time into it is Windows had they would be in [TS]

  a much stronger position to say look everything is common language runtime [TS]

  and we have all these cape hatteras run safe and we can put new languages on it [TS]

  and you know a python the CLR is just straight up Python you write your you [TS]

  write your Python functions having a private party money be I have two [TS]

  bridges but hopefully they don't just two straight bridges they do you know [TS]

  rappers are different than British rapper is like I wanted to hide all the [TS]

  stuff that's irrelevant high-level language and rappers have a cost in [TS]

  terms of performance but there is more better semantics than than bridges yes [TS]

  absolutely and that's what I'm used to seeing a bunch of rappers and facades [TS]

  that that under the hood are doing p.m. folks all the nasty crappy things [TS]

  I have to do but to me i'm just calling system . whatever that whatever the [TS]

  thing like this event has that the API that it's wrapping is much more [TS]

  disgusting [TS]

  like 132 as compared to like our foundation it's not real it's all so [TS]

  that they there does wrapping rappers of rappers because in the very bottom is [TS]

  this is terrible slime the New Orleans a touch it's true but you don't answer my [TS]

  question if you were to pick today at language today what would you pay to get [TS]

  the pic prospects even though it doesn't really exist kind of sort of it's kind [TS]

  of a cop and if you don't really know what's so bad about it yet [TS]

  well I mean I know what's so bad about the language I just don't know what to [TS]

  do better on the implementation language existed suspect is just no i didnt like [TS]

  it doesn't really exist the last half implementation or whatever but like [TS]

  language wise I think process is the most exciting language that sort of kind [TS]

  of almost exists I dislike pile on more than I just like Ruby so I would [TS]

  probably bring in the result I really really do dislike several things about [TS]

  Ruby pretty vehement Lee because I feel like they should have known better but I [TS]

  i just like Python more I definitely just like JavaScript more so I guess I [TS]

  would have to go through be as much as it pains me to say that as much as I [TS]

  have not a fan of Ruby really just totally distasteful to me and JavaScript [TS]

  is just just informative [TS]

  nothing about Apple modernizing Objective C and eventually adding this [TS]

  new syntax layer on top of it if that's what their plan is that doesn't preclude [TS]

  them from also modernizing the ATI's along with that and I mean that they [TS]

  would have to wrap them they were well temporarily but you know compared with [TS]

  the bridge to bridge when it wraps things I agree with everything you said [TS]

  a bridge sucks because you get these weird you know API is that obviously are [TS]

  not written with that new language in mind but that's because bridges usually [TS]

  written by people who aren't the API platform owners like Apple would make [TS]

  a new brand new the Java bridge was something that was that was doomed but [TS]

  you know if Apple decided this is the new thing this new language Larry built [TS]

  on top of just to see now on its back by Victor see this now this whole different [TS]

  language layer on top this is our new thing this is the this is the way [TS]

  forward then within a few years they could have all the replies modernize to [TS]

  it are these all the one people actually use on a regular basis are some of them [TS]

  I mean like what you when you would hope is that like I guess you would hope the [TS]

  bottom layers roll up eventually like kind of like the assembly assembly has [TS]

  been basically rolled up like the original Mac operating system tremendous [TS]

  amount of assembly and the amount of Assembly in operation that anyone has [TS]

  two writer deal with or call arranged things just shrug up to the point where [TS]

  now it's like a couple device drivers in the current Olin library for doing math [TS]

  right that's it [TS]

  like it too low and curls up and it's just gone from the operation of the [TS]

  operating system the things dealing with the GUI you know like you would hope [TS]

  that eventually see part thanks to roll up to now the Objective C fiber let's [TS]

  start with the C part that like ok well now the sea is only like in the current [TS]

  online and device drivers or whatever like and it used to be every everything [TS]

  used to be C you know everything you know if you can't inject you see is it [TS]

  like I would like to see progress of the high and also rolling up a long visit [TS]

  you're not you don't do that all you're doing is making putting more layers and [TS]

  layer cake and that you know it at a certain point like them are now or what [TS]

  kind of performance here this is a great article that someone should put in our [TS]

  nonexistent shown us but at a certain point no matter what kind of performance [TS]

  you get from the hardware if you keep putting layer upon layer cake [TS]

  performance won't be a problem it'll be like latency the jury that article from [TS]

  John Carmack talking about latency of your head sets no but that's that sounds [TS]

  good [TS]

  is like we have amazing technology with GPUs and we can do that amazing texture [TS]

  fills and cute you know shader operations operating on like millions [TS]

  and millions of pickles like 15 times per frame we can do is amazing frame [TS]

  rate and none of that matters because if you can't react to me turn my head [TS]

  within 20 milliseconds and get a new image in front of my eyes it's like [TS]

  motion sickness inducing until all those great technology we have actually [TS]

  impairs the ability pieces so many layers and layer cake of like this goes [TS]

  through this that goes to the the USB thing there and then goes to the did you [TS]

  know that the input system and then goes to the OpenGL and how to the graphics [TS]

  card comes back down has to be displayed like all the layers we've had two layer [TS]

  cake you know for this amazing performance skills latency so this is [TS]

  not a direct analogy designers latency the API stuck with the same ideas that [TS]

  we can't just keep adding layers and layer cake you have to curl up the lower [TS]

  ones to you have to pop off the bottom as you had once at the top so that's the [TS]

  kind of progress I'm looking for my lifetime thing you get on that and I i [TS]

  think they're doing that you know we haven't really seen the next big step [TS]

  yet but it looks like like based on the actions that we have seen i think thats [TS]

  a plausible prediction of where they're actually heading they're not going in [TS]

  the wrong direction it's not like we're you know it's just it's just like [TS]

  quibbling about the details like and the and the pace you know mobile set [TS]

  everything back a decade or two so trying I understand that you know it [TS]

  makes perfect sense right but like you know I would like to see more MORE [TS]

  advancement in the high and more coming up to the lower end is just like the [TS]

  road they're taking to it is perhaps more security and slower than than I [TS]

  would like [TS]

  especially when I see things like CLR existing position long time it's like [TS]

  this technology was there and you know yeah your entire stock is still better [TS]

  than Microsoft's now but like would like the mile thing with this is not [TS]

  something you can do overnight and if you're going to try to do incremental in [TS]

  pieces I think he will end up running into a barrier where there has to be a [TS]

  discontinuity somewhere and if there isn't your gonna end up with the sort of [TS]

  mongrel at the end of it like age of us plus where you just took the salt thing [TS]

  and slightly modified a bit of time but never sat down to say okay like what is [TS]

  this new thing we want you know me it's like it's like ViaWest just an [TS]

  incremental revision of slowly adding mobile site features the Mac OS 10 it [TS]

  wasn't they you know they start over conceptually from the UI perspective [TS]

  right I I'm a fan of a kind of clean break and I worry that slowly creeping [TS]

  up on deck to see without the sea will result in a language that no one can [TS]

  really [TS]

  love it may be that will never hurt Apple set aside a big deal as long as [TS]

  you're doing great marketing everything but that's what appeals to me so I think [TS]

  it's like a philosophical difference and I'm obviously I'm probably more [TS]

  idealistic you not being the person whose job is to make the decision for a [TS]

  big company in the world or whatever and you can also question I think it's worth [TS]

  considering like is it too late to do something like that like are these [TS]

  systems so complex are are these devices an API is so feature rich and so mature [TS]

  it like is it wouldn't be too big undertaking for that and never it's [TS]

  never too late never two I mean if if anything I would say when is the time [TS]

  that you should be thinking about this it's when you're like at the height of [TS]

  your power because you try to do it like on your way down like promise like ways [TS]

  I could borrow a Sox we should make an all-new on like too little too late [TS]

  rammed into me likey you got it so whatever their plan is like they have a [TS]

  plan like if it takes some longer and they do it in a small series of steps or [TS]

  whatever but like you know that if the company will go out of business or the [TS]

  day will come when they need to have this better higher level thing and [TS]

  they're either going we'll have arrived at through a series of small steps and [TS]

  perhaps ended up at the destination is not quite as pretty as if they had made [TS]

  a larger disk discontinuous jump but you know I doubt there I think I think the [TS]

  only the only thing I wonder is perhaps we should pay a little more attention to [TS]

  any mentions of LLVM in claiming it at WTC because it seems to me they were [TS]

  going to sneak in a new language or somewhere new framework or something [TS]

  like that I would suppose that we would see traces of that their first like [TS]

  archive believe was if I'm not mistaken was a building built off of the static [TS]

  analysis that was in one of the two of these guys in and I'm opening up a whole [TS]

  new can of worms I don't open but I am just curious to see what LLVM inclined [TS]

  are doing over read lately and what the what will be announced that really just [TS]

  type inference because it's like a natural progression of what they're [TS]

  doing they pretty much almost have the metadata in there for a stock analysis [TS]

  combined with you know the knowledge required to make our quirk that makes it [TS]

  seem like they could do some reasonable time it may be is not enough bang for [TS]

  the buck maybe this occasion we could do Thai beverage but it's not such a big [TS]

  win to be worth the confusion so we're just gonna bail but assuming they [TS]

  actually think it's worthwhile it's an obvious next step of things they can do [TS]

  to make it easier to type less crap but you're not really changing the language [TS]

  like you know it's not change its language really just like how you know [TS]

  the type you must also know you do like auto or bar where the hell were they [TS]

  used to indicate that you know it's it's clear from the code just you know and [TS]

  then and also I think the pace of those improvements has increased dramatically [TS]

  in the last few years [TS]

  yeah what they want they got totally free of GCC right now we're seeing this [TS]

  explode like received like this past year that are all those little shortcuts [TS]

  in so many little benefits like just in one year [TS]

  you know and they still see full-size 11 kind of weighing them down like they got [TS]

  out from under GCC but they still need to do a lot more to like fully support [TS]

  the monster language that is C++ though like that that probably still absorbs a [TS]

  lot of their time like finally nailing down all the little crazy as C++ is that [TS]

  even possible [TS]

  like the point is the GCC GCC much like C++ compilers that have been compiling [TS]

  productive last for a long time are still ahead of her claims evils of [TS]

  support was as if like a year to go maybe they've closed the gap now but [TS]

  like it's a lot of work and it's it's kind of annoying work was like Apple [TS]

  barely uses C++ compared to like how much for example and so we gotta makers [TS]

  to become policy but we know we don't care about this language really like we [TS]

  have enough support for our stuff what it was like alright but if you want [TS]

  trying to be a popular widespread compiler and you have to you know make [TS]

  it supports if even that much and enemies all the stupid esoteric readers [TS]

  because you can't build [TS]

  important stupid projects food bill Brewster whatever they don't have that [TS]

  problem now but they did early on and if you can't support the new vehicles 11 [TS]

  landers and also the crap you know that's that's still in the background [TS]

  like ketchup stuff to do before they can grow totally fly free C++ oxtails thing [TS]

  when it would have meant that that's what became his was 11th in it I don't [TS]

  know why I don't fall to sleep in all I try not to but even [TS]