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ATP

661: Intimate and Regimented

 

00:00:00   All right, I have solved Apple's TV naming problem.

00:00:04   We can't talk about this now, that's part of the actual show.

00:00:08   We're going to talk about it now, because honestly, I don't think we're going to get to it,

00:00:11   and this is probably all it deserves.

00:00:12   We're going to get to it. I spent too much time on it for it to get to it.

00:00:16   We got quotes from any cue. If not this show, then next show.

00:00:19   All right, I'll have to save my idea for another time then.

00:00:21   Oh, burned.

00:00:22   I mean, save it for when we cover the topic.

00:00:24   It's not that good of an idea.

00:00:28   If it's good enough for a pre-show, it's not good enough for the actual show.

00:00:32   It's good enough for both of them, Marco.

00:00:34   It's not. It's really not. You'll see.

00:00:35   Let's do some follow-up. Apparently the Scots are still perturbed.

00:00:41   Adam One writes,

00:00:42   I could hear every Scotsman in the world screaming in pain when you said English is the native language of Scotland.

00:00:48   I am afraid my cousins over the pond are swearing oaths right now.

00:00:51   It is true that English is the practical language in Scotland's largest cities,

00:00:54   but you don't have to go far out of the cities before the traditional and historic language of the

00:00:58   Scots begins to creep into communication.

00:01:00   Scottish Gaelic, excuse me, the true language of the Scotsman.

00:01:04   Man, I'm getting tongue-tied.

00:01:05   Tongue-tied. Oh, my word.

00:01:07   Just leave it all in. Just leave it all in. It's fine.

00:01:09   Getting tongue-tied over here.

00:01:10   Tongue-tied.

00:01:11   Is still spoken in the Highlands and the rural areas of the West.

00:01:15   And even where English is more common, many English speakers might not be able to understand much of what is said.

00:01:20   The practical tongue is often a Creole of English and Gaelic.

00:01:23   Quick aside, I didn't realize the Creole had a lowercase version.

00:01:27   I only knew of the uppercase Creole from the Louisiana area.

00:01:31   So, I learned something today.

00:01:33   Anyways, going back to what Adam said.

00:01:34   All that said, regardless of where you go,

00:01:36   no Scotsman would ever identify themselves as English in any way.

00:01:41   Additionally, Justin Monroe Marrington writes,

00:01:43   There are three official languages in Scotland.

00:01:45   Scots, a Germanic language spoken in the Lowlands, which split off from Middle English around 600 AD.

00:01:50   English, or Scottish English, which is a dialect that borrows quite a few words from Scots,

00:01:55   confusing lots of people who don't realize Scots is a language.

00:01:57   And Gaelic, the Celtic, Celtic, whatever language.

00:02:00   Celtic.

00:02:01   Thank you.

00:02:01   Most commonly spoken in the Western Highlands and Isles.

00:02:04   So, there you go.

00:02:05   I knew it wasn't right.

00:02:06   I stopped myself in mid-sentence when I talked about it,

00:02:09   but I didn't know what the actual answer was, so now we do.

00:02:12   Coming back to Recognition Corner, Christian Healer writes,

00:02:16   I'm a hiring manager and we are hiring for a technical consulting role.

00:02:19   I joined a Zoom call with a candidate who was wearing a black ATP polo shirt.

00:02:23   First of all, excellent taste with the polo.

00:02:25   I approve.

00:02:25   We did the usual interview questions, but I asked him at the end,

00:02:28   who is your favorite podcast host?

00:02:29   After having a five-minute ATP discussion and giving the correct answer,

00:02:32   we offered a job same day.

00:02:34   To which I replied privately to Christian,

00:02:36   I am so glad that I got him a job,

00:02:38   even though we all know the correct answer was probably John,

00:02:41   but that's okay.

00:02:42   He left it a mystery.

00:02:43   He didn't say what the correct answer was,

00:02:44   but all I'm saying is ATP merch gets you jobs.

00:02:46   That's what I heard.

00:02:47   It's clearly, exactly.

00:02:48   I do.

00:02:49   I love that he didn't say in the email who,

00:02:52   you know, what was the correct answer.

00:02:53   I love that.

00:02:54   Then we all just get to think it's us.

00:02:55   It's perfect.

00:02:56   Oh, it's definitely not me.

00:02:57   You don't know.

00:02:58   It might be.

00:02:59   It's definitely not.

00:03:00   It very well could be.

00:03:01   No.

00:03:01   The rightest answer is Casey.

00:03:03   Well, I appreciate that,

00:03:04   but I don't know.

00:03:05   Anyways.

00:03:05   All right.

00:03:06   So iPadOS 26.1 slide over.

00:03:09   Daniel Luzluz correctly guessed that John somehow had reduced transparency turned on,

00:03:15   causing the lack of sliding animation in slide over.

00:03:18   Correction, reduce, reduce motion.

00:03:20   I had reduced motion on my, my bad.

00:03:22   My bad.

00:03:22   What did I just say?

00:03:23   I typed transparency.

00:03:24   Oh, well, it made sense to me.

00:03:27   Sorry.

00:03:27   Anyway.

00:03:27   So this is the story behind this.

00:03:29   I'm well aware that when you have reduced motion on it,

00:03:33   it changes animations into crossfades.

00:03:36   Because if you remember way back in the iOS seven days,

00:03:39   I turned on reduced motion because I didn't like how stuff moved in iOS seven.

00:03:43   And then I got to witness the, you know, crossfades everywhere.

00:03:47   That's how they handled it.

00:03:48   And remember the whole debate we had, you probably don't,

00:03:51   but about like, well, if you, if you turn off reduced motion,

00:03:54   then you don't get to see the laser effects and messages.

00:03:56   Do you remember that?

00:03:57   Oh yes, I do remember.

00:03:57   And then Apple added an update later that said, okay,

00:04:00   even if you have reduced motion on,

00:04:01   you can still choose to see the message effects because I wanted to see the

00:04:04   message effects, but I didn't want to see the motion.

00:04:06   And they had an option for it and blah, blah, blah.

00:04:07   So that's why I had reduced,

00:04:08   reduced motion on way back and whatever this was like iOS seven days.

00:04:12   But years ago for a long time now, I gave up on that.

00:04:16   I just turned reduced motion off and I'm just taking the defaults.

00:04:19   Maybe they changed the animations.

00:04:20   Maybe I just got used to, but whatever I did that.

00:04:22   So even though I knew reduced motion had crossfades,

00:04:25   and even though I was saying slide over is doing crossfade instead of a slide

00:04:28   over, it didn't make any sense to me.

00:04:29   I didn't connect the dots there.

00:04:31   And I almost replied to Daniel and said, no, I don't have reduced motion on.

00:04:33   It turned that off years ago.

00:04:34   Right.

00:04:35   But I checked, I went to the iPad and checked and sure enough on my iPad,

00:04:38   reduced motion was on.

00:04:39   And then I'm like, okay, but if you're on iOS 18 and you have reduced motion on,

00:04:45   does slide over slide?

00:04:46   And the answer is yes.

00:04:47   It still slides in iOS 18.

00:04:49   But in iOS, in iPadOS 18, in iPadOS 26, if you have reduced motion on,

00:04:54   slide over does half a slide and then crossfades into its final position.

00:04:58   So that part of my complaint about iPadOS and slide over is basically invalid.

00:05:04   Although I think what they do with reduced motion is dumb.

00:05:06   But here's the other thing.

00:05:07   The screen flicker and flashing also only happens when you have reduced motion on.

00:05:13   If you turn reduced motion off, which I did now on my iPad,

00:05:16   slide over slides normally and it does not cause the entire screen to flash and flicker

00:05:20   when you slide in and slide out.

00:05:22   So I'm a little bit happier than I was.

00:05:24   Thank you, Daniel, for making me double check that setting.

00:05:27   But Apple really needs to work on their reduced motion thing because it is just untenable.

00:05:31   I think that the half animation and crossfade is ugly, but the flashing is just too much,

00:05:37   especially if it's like, you know, you're in dark mode or it's dark in the room or whatever.

00:05:40   We are now returning to Case Corner where Oliver Thomas writes,

00:05:45   Ryan London now has an open bottom iPhone 17 Pro case with sapphire camera control buttons.

00:05:50   This sounds like exactly what the doctor ordered for John Syracuse.

00:05:54   What do you think, John?

00:05:55   I mean, I don't have this phone, so I don't care.

00:05:57   I know, I know.

00:05:57   But Marco was saying that he liked the bull strap case, but didn't like the bra thing on it.

00:06:02   And the Ryan London one has a smooth leather surround.

00:06:05   Like it doesn't have like a big ridge or a wall or a metal ring, but it does show the whole plateau.

00:06:11   So I was bringing this to Marco's attention in case he wants to try one more case.

00:06:15   This is basically the bull strap case, but with a little R on the side instead of a bull on the back

00:06:19   and the whole plateau exposed.

00:06:20   Yep.

00:06:21   So I ordered it.

00:06:22   We'll see whatever it gets.

00:06:24   The only thing is like from the photos, it looks kind of like the buttons suck.

00:06:29   Like those are not good looking buttons in those photos.

00:06:31   I agree.

00:06:32   It looks exactly like I would love to know like who makes all these cases because like for many years,

00:06:37   Ryan London and Bull Trap have basically sold the same case with minor variations.

00:06:40   Clearly, there are some manufacturers that are making making all these and they've always for the past couple of years had this like the buttons have kind of been like there's like a blister where the buttons come out of as opposed to what I would like,

00:06:50   which is like the old Apple leather cases where it's the opposite, where there's like a ditch that the buttons are in.

00:06:55   So the buttons can be the buttons can be taller because the surface there above is inset.

00:07:00   But anyway, I mean, it's not the end of the world, but it's definitely not the nicest buttons.

00:07:05   But everything else about it, open bottom, black leather, smooth thing around the plateau and whole plateau exposed seems nice.

00:07:12   Yeah, it looks like if the buttons are OK, which is a big if for a leather case.

00:07:18   But if the buttons are OK, then that could be really nice.

00:07:21   Otherwise, I've been using the Peak Design case for the last week, solid all the way through.

00:07:26   And it's been again what I said last week.

00:07:28   It's really bulky.

00:07:30   So if you can forgive the bulk of it, it is otherwise excellent in every other way.

00:07:35   But it is bulky.

00:07:37   And speaking of Marco, let's talk about your USB Odyssey, because Data writes,

00:07:41   John said that Laughing Man 11, the Reddit poster with details about USB and Thunderbolt cable, sounded kind of authoritative.

00:07:46   He is at least a little.

00:07:48   Laughing Man 11 is the Reddit account of Benson Leung, engineer on the Chrome OS kernel.

00:07:52   His name is literally on some of the USB-C specifications.

00:07:56   He gives lots of fantastic advice about USB-C on Reddit, and we'll also put in a link to his Wikipedia page, which gives a little of the history there.

00:08:03   Short, short, if I recall correctly, was he got burned by some crummy USB-C cables and decided this cannot stand.

00:08:11   I will talk and scream from the heavens about what's good and what's bad.

00:08:15   And that's what he does.

00:08:17   With regard to ZFS and the Drobo Dream, John, can you remind us, what is the Drobo Dream?

00:08:21   Drobo Dream is if you're like a home user and not like buying for an enterprise and data centers and stuff like that,

00:08:26   but you're just a regular person who wants to have a bunch of storage and a network-attached storage device.

00:08:30   And you don't want to have to buy hard drives in sets of like 20 or something.

00:08:36   You just want to buy as much hard drive space as you can afford.

00:08:39   And then later, when you run out of space, see what's the next biggest hard drive you can afford,

00:08:43   whatever is on the market, whatever is, you know, whatever, and just buy it and stick it in there and keep doing that.

00:08:47   Expand your space by basically, you know, running it, you know, filling the space that you have

00:08:52   and then looking at your budget at the time and the technology at the time

00:08:54   and then just buying the biggest drive that you can afford that you think is good and sticking it in there.

00:08:58   And having your expansion grow, but also having whatever data redundancy you chose when you set up the storage array, stay the same.

00:09:06   So you're not just doing like a JBOD thing where it's just like, oh yeah, you sure can add drive of any size.

00:09:10   It just adds space, right?

00:09:11   There's no redundancy there.

00:09:12   If you lose one drive, you lose all the data on that drive.

00:09:14   So whenever you set up your array, you're like, I set it up and I want to be able to withstand one drive failure.

00:09:18   I want to be able to withstand two drive failure.

00:09:20   I want to be able to withstand 50% of my drives to fail.

00:09:22   So whatever redundancy you decide is appropriate for your array, you set that on day one.

00:09:28   And then over the years, you just buy the next biggest drive and stick it in, buy the next biggest drive and stick it in,

00:09:32   or replace a smaller drive with a bigger one.

00:09:34   And, you know, that's the Drobo dream.

00:09:36   It is a dream of home users who want to be economical as they expand their storage while still benefiting from redundancy.

00:09:42   So with that in mind, Joe writes, there have recently been some developments in the open ZFS world

00:09:49   with regard to the Drobo dream called ZFS AnyRaid.

00:09:52   While it is more complicated than I'm able to quickly summarize,

00:09:56   essentially ZFS AnyRaid breaks down all the disks across the ZFS RAID array into 64 gig tiles

00:10:02   and then runs its parity calculations on these tiles rather than across entire blocks as in traditional ZFS RAID.

00:10:07   What this means is that in the future, a ZFS AnyRaid deployment will be able to handle disks of varying sizes

00:10:12   in a much better and consumer-friendlier way.

00:10:14   While this is being developed by HexOS, they have committed to open sourcing it when it is finally released.

00:10:19   Yeah, so this is an in-progress thing.

00:10:21   Again, ZFS's various RAID schemes are more flexible than they used to be,

00:10:25   but they don't achieve the Drobo dream.

00:10:29   The Drobo dream is called that because Drobo sold a while ago a hardware product that purported to do what I just described

00:10:35   and more or less did it with some reliability issues.

00:10:37   And I believe they're gone now.

00:10:39   They're totally out of business, I think.

00:10:40   Yes, as far as I know, that's right.

00:10:42   Or did somebody buy their assets or something?

00:10:43   Anyway, ZFS AnyRaid sounds promising, but it's still in development, so keep your eye out for that.

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00:12:32   All right.

00:12:36   I think we're good on follow-up.

00:12:38   So we had some breaking news earlier today.

00:12:41   And I appreciate that Apple at least did it before we recorded, even though I would have preferred yesterday.

00:12:46   But it's fine.

00:12:46   Better than tomorrow.

00:12:47   Well, I don't know.

00:12:49   I mean, it was the holiday, right?

00:12:50   Isn't that why it's on?

00:12:51   Because they usually do an announcement on Tuesdays, but it was like Indigenous People's Day on Monday,

00:12:54   so that everything gets shifted like your garbage pickup.

00:12:56   Are you trying to say your opinions about this?

00:13:00   Again, for new listeners to the show, we intentionally record on Wednesday because Apple used to announce products on Tuesdays,

00:13:07   and then we would be able to record the show right after they announced them.

00:13:10   That is not why we picked Wednesdays.

00:13:12   We happened to pick Wednesday, and that happened to work out pretty well for us.

00:13:16   No, that's why we picked it.

00:13:17   No, it is not.

00:13:18   That is, you are, what is the reverse headcanon name?

00:13:20   Maybe it was only in my head, but it was definitely in my head.

00:13:25   And I've said it before on the show, so it's not like the first time you were hearing this,

00:13:28   and last time you didn't object to it.

00:13:29   But FYI, that was definitely in my head.

00:13:31   No, I'm pretty sure the reason was like, when we decided to do the show, we're like,

00:13:34   hey, when can you record?

00:13:35   How about this Wednesday?

00:13:36   Yeah?

00:13:36   Okay.

00:13:37   And then it just stuck.

00:13:38   No, I'm pretty sure.

00:13:39   I think there was more thought than that.

00:13:41   It was basically, what day do we want to do this?

00:13:44   And I thought we landed on Wednesday as being, well, it's the middle of the week.

00:13:47   I do not remember.

00:13:48   No, no.

00:13:48   I'm pretty sure.

00:13:50   I wish we had this recorded.

00:13:51   Maybe we even do.

00:13:51   Someday I'm going to run transcription of all our recordings.

00:13:53   I'm pretty sure the three of us discussed the fact that Apple usually announces on Tuesday,

00:13:57   so Wednesday is good.

00:13:58   And I'm even more sure that I have said this idea on the show before, and neither of you

00:14:02   objected.

00:14:03   But anyway, suffice it to say, regardless of all of that, it was in my head when we picked

00:14:09   Wednesday, whether it was voiced or not, but it totally was voiced.

00:14:12   Well, but hold on.

00:14:12   We had this schedule for neutral, and we weren't figuring about Apple's press release stuff.

00:14:17   I don't even remember when we recorded neutral.

00:14:18   It was Wednesday nights, I thought.

00:14:20   I don't know.

00:14:22   You think I know?

00:14:23   I'm not going to trust your memory of that, though.

00:14:25   Exactly.

00:14:25   Let me see.

00:14:26   All right.

00:14:27   I can find this out now, real time.

00:14:28   All right.

00:14:29   We're going to figure this out.

00:14:30   I'm going to go find a neutral recording file.

00:14:32   When were we recording neutral?

00:14:34   Let's see.

00:14:34   It was January of 13.

00:14:36   Oh, these are incomparables.

00:14:37   This is such good programming.

00:14:38   I don't have the old project files.

00:14:41   I just have the MP3s.

00:14:42   Neutral was on...

00:14:44   All right.

00:14:44   Here's a neutral recording on April 10th, 2013.

00:14:48   What day was that?

00:14:49   Whoops.

00:14:50   Cal for 2013.

00:14:52   The 10th was a Wednesday.

00:14:54   What now?

00:14:55   What now?

00:14:56   Vindication, baby.

00:14:58   Vindication.

00:14:59   Obviously, we didn't pick neutral based on the day Apple releases.

00:15:02   Exactly.

00:15:02   Exactly.

00:15:03   I remember something.

00:15:04   But we did...

00:15:04   When we were choosing today to record ATP.

00:15:06   Yes.

00:15:07   We were already recording on Wednesday.

00:15:09   Right.

00:15:09   Exactly.

00:15:10   You are definitely inventing some headcanon here, John.

00:15:13   It's fine.

00:15:14   This was it.

00:15:15   Like I said, this was definitely in my head.

00:15:17   If I'd never spoke it to you, that's on me.

00:15:20   But I'm pretty sure we have this discussion.

00:15:21   I'm pretty sure the three of us had this discussion.

00:15:23   We're like, yeah, it's a good idea because they released things on Wednesday.

00:15:25   And I'm even more sure that I said on one of our shows or maybe a member special or whatever

00:15:31   that the reason we do on Wednesday is Apple announces on Tuesday.

00:15:33   And neither of you objected.

00:15:34   And that was recent.

00:15:35   It was probably like in making the show or something.

00:15:36   As Chloe Tart says in the chat, revisionist self-historian.

00:15:44   I'm here for it.

00:15:45   All right.

00:15:46   Well, it's too bad that the released episode isn't going to have any of that because I

00:15:50   know that Marco's going to cut all that out.

00:15:52   No, that's staying in.

00:15:53   All right.

00:15:54   We'll see.

00:15:54   Because it's us being probably right.

00:15:56   I mean, you're going to get the follow up from the people who have better transcription

00:16:00   search than me finding the last time I mentioned that and neither of you objected.

00:16:03   I mean, just because we didn't object then doesn't mean we agreed necessarily.

00:16:07   We just didn't want to get in an argument.

00:16:08   It was in my head.

00:16:09   Like, this is what I was thinking about.

00:16:11   Wednesday is a good day.

00:16:12   It is a benefit that we enjoy by recording on Wednesday, but I do not believe it was the

00:16:17   reason.

00:16:17   I believe it just happened to us.

00:16:19   And we are thankful for that over time.

00:16:22   Right.

00:16:22   Just like a white car.

00:16:22   It can happen to anyone.

00:16:23   Yeah.

00:16:23   And neither of you remember the discussion of like, yeah, we should stick to Wednesday

00:16:26   because Apple usually announces stuff on Tuesday.

00:16:28   That's the whole, but stick to Wednesday is different because we were already there.

00:16:32   Exactly.

00:16:32   Well, that's what I'm saying.

00:16:33   I'm not saying that we had to move.

00:16:35   Even if we were already neutral, I'm saying the reason we chose Wednesday as in let's not

00:16:40   change from Wednesday was because Apple announces stuff on Tuesday.

00:16:42   Now you're saying, yeah, I remember that, but we didn't change days.

00:16:45   So it doesn't count.

00:16:46   Oh my God, I'm dying.

00:16:48   But I'm saying we didn't choose Wednesday with that in mind.

00:16:51   We chose Wednesday for like, you know, just-

00:16:53   We chose to stay with Wednesday with that in mind.

00:16:55   Because we were already there.

00:16:57   But we could have moved it to any other day.

00:17:00   We could have, but why would we?

00:17:02   We already had all the momentum.

00:17:02   Well, the reason we didn't was because we discussed it and said, well, this is actually

00:17:05   a good day because Apple announces stuff on Tuesday and we'll be able to record right

00:17:08   after they announce stuff.

00:17:08   But that doesn't mean we chose it.

00:17:10   Oh, this is just semantics.

00:17:12   I feel like you're just saying that you agree with me, but you have some hair splitting

00:17:16   semantic thing.

00:17:16   Well, technically we didn't choose it because it was already there.

00:17:18   We just didn't change it.

00:17:19   Yes.

00:17:20   That matters.

00:17:21   I don't think that is hair splitting.

00:17:22   And you don't remember this conversation where we said, well, we just have, you know,

00:17:26   use Wednesday because Tuesday is when Apple announces stuff.

00:17:28   Are you saying you remember that now?

00:17:29   I mean, I think we've talked about that multiple times over time, but like we've never, it was

00:17:33   never in the context of like, what day should we record?

00:17:35   It was always like, again, what I just said earlier in the segment is the reason we record

00:17:39   on Wednesday, I disagree with the reason we chose Wednesday in the very beginning for

00:17:44   the first time we recorded it.

00:17:46   The reason we chose not to choose change from Wednesday was because I agree to nothing.

00:17:50   It was definitely that.

00:17:52   And not that we had had three months of momentum and why would we mess with the system?

00:17:56   I mean, there wasn't really much momentum from neutral.

00:17:58   That's true.

00:17:59   Here's the other thing.

00:18:01   Some of the original ATPs were literally recorded after neutral access.

00:18:05   Um, so that's, they were recorded at the same time.

00:18:08   Yes.

00:18:09   On Wednesday.

00:18:10   All right.

00:18:11   Sure.

00:18:11   Sure.

00:18:12   But at that point we didn't know that it was, we didn't know it was a podcast.

00:18:15   So we weren't choosing a day for a podcast that we're recording about Apple.

00:18:18   Obviously, John, I love you so much, but this is, this is retconning to the extreme.

00:18:22   It's not retconning.

00:18:23   You both agree that that's why we record on Wednesday.

00:18:25   You just don't think it was chosen.

00:18:27   You know what you're doing right now is I, I've told this story somewhere, probably this

00:18:30   show, uh, long, just bear with me here.

00:18:32   A long time ago, uh, Declan and I would go to lunch every Sunday and I would take him

00:18:36   to a different barbecue place, not the one that Marco went to.

00:18:39   And one time I was like, you know what, Declan, would you like to try a French fry?

00:18:43   And, and I thought, oh, this will be the one time.

00:18:46   And so I let him try a French fry.

00:18:48   And of course he's like, wow, that's delicious.

00:18:49   And then every time we went to the barbecue place, he thought he would have a French

00:18:53   fry.

00:18:53   So because I agreed once, he thought forevermore.

00:18:56   That was a fact because we didn't argue with you once about the.

00:19:00   But it is a fact.

00:19:01   We do record on Wednesday because that's when Apple releases things on Tuesdays.

00:19:05   I see.

00:19:06   Oh my God.

00:19:06   And also you told the story about the French fry before on the show, which I remember.

00:19:09   Well, I've told it at least a couple of times.

00:19:12   Even I remembered having told it at some point, but I, I'm not trying to say that my memory

00:19:16   is as good as yours.

00:19:17   I will say, however, that the two of us agree that you are retconning.

00:19:20   Anyway, the M5.

00:19:21   No, I'm not retconning.

00:19:23   You remember, you both remember the conversation.

00:19:25   You just, you're just debating whether that conversation constitutes the thing I was describing.

00:19:29   You're saying, no, it doesn't.

00:19:30   But you're not, none of you are saying we never had that conversation or never had this

00:19:33   thought before, right?

00:19:34   We had a conversation about, wow, it is kind of nice that we record on Wednesdays.

00:19:39   Right, exactly.

00:19:39   Yeah.

00:19:39   Okay.

00:19:39   So Marco agrees.

00:19:40   Casey, do you agree with that?

00:19:41   I think that it was circumstantial.

00:19:44   Like we are already here.

00:19:45   We are going to be sticking with here.

00:19:47   Casey doesn't remember the conversation, which is not surprising.

00:19:50   Marco doesn't remember the conversation, but thinks it doesn't count or doesn't constitute

00:19:53   what I was referring to.

00:19:53   Well, I definitely agree that it doesn't count.

00:19:55   But I'm totally willing to declare victory based on Marco's memory of the conversation

00:19:58   because that's what I'm talking about.

00:19:59   That we had that conversation and said, yes, this is, this is a thing that is a factor in

00:20:04   the Wednesday-ness of the show.

00:20:05   All three of us are declaring victory on conflicting goals.

00:20:09   You know what it should be is only that person's favorite host should declare victory.

00:20:14   Now the truth comes out and John is feeling real confident about this.

00:20:20   No, I'm not saying who it is.

00:20:21   All three of us.

00:20:22   See, it could be any one of us.

00:20:23   I love doing this show so much.

00:20:25   I really, truly do.

00:20:26   Even when you two drive me bananas, which is often, I still very much love you.

00:20:30   I have so much stuff to get to in this show.

00:20:31   Well, you shouldn't have argued with us.

00:20:33   It's all your fault.

00:20:33   Anyway, the M5, the M5 has been announced today and it's in a bunch of devices, which

00:20:39   we'll talk about.

00:20:39   But let's talk about the M5 first.

00:20:41   It's built, this is reading from Apple, built using third generation and three nanometer

00:20:44   technology.

00:20:45   M5 introduces a next generation 10 core GPU architecture with a neural accelerator in each

00:20:49   core, enabling GPU based AI workloads to run dramatically faster with over four times the

00:20:55   peak GPU compute performance compared to M4.

00:20:57   The GPU also offers enhanced graphics capabilities and third generation ray tracing that combined

00:21:03   delivered a graphics performance that is up to 45% higher than the M4.

00:21:07   The M5 features the world's fastest performance core with up to a 10 core CPU made up of six

00:21:14   efficiency cores and up to four performance cores.

00:21:17   John, you still don't know how to handle those JSs, huh?

00:21:22   Right.

00:21:23   No, I thought this was your time to interject.

00:21:25   No, no, I'm going to explain it again.

00:21:27   Second time.

00:21:28   Jesus.

00:21:29   When you see a thing in the show, you're reading a thing, this in the notes, it's like

00:21:34   from some document.

00:21:34   This is from Apple's press release, right?

00:21:36   And then obviously you're reading from Apple's press release.

00:21:38   If I want to interject with some point that is not from the text, I put JS in front of

00:21:43   it.

00:21:44   So, you know, this wasn't from the thing.

00:21:46   But I thought you were interjecting.

00:21:48   That's the key.

00:21:48   But you, but it's just, I'm just adding information.

00:21:50   I'm saying that I added that information, but I don't need to say it.

00:21:53   All right.

00:21:53   All right.

00:21:54   You just need to, like, this is the point where you can interject this as if this is

00:21:57   your insight.

00:21:58   All right.

00:21:58   Well, you know what I knew?

00:21:59   You know what I knew that JS did not know?

00:22:01   I can't even say it with a straight face.

00:22:02   What I knew and John didn't know or something like that is that that is the same performance

00:22:07   and efficiency cores as the M4.

00:22:08   Definitely something I came up with.

00:22:10   Definitely not, John.

00:22:10   Doesn't it matter who knows it?

00:22:11   I just wanted that information to get out there in case, hey, you're wondering, six efficiency

00:22:15   and four performance.

00:22:15   Is that a change from the M4?

00:22:17   No, it's not.

00:22:17   Yeah, which often, to be fair, like, oftentimes the, you know, the Apple press releases or

00:22:23   statements in the keynotes will omit that information because it usually is not that impressive compared

00:22:28   to the past generation.

00:22:29   Or, like, they'll say, like, it's, you know, 75% faster than the M2.

00:22:34   It's like, well, but that wasn't the previous chip.

00:22:35   Like, you know, they'll do comparisons like that because they want to maximize how important

00:22:39   the new chip sounds.

00:22:40   And in a lot of specs, the M5 is actually really impressive over the M4.

00:22:45   And in some specs, it's more of, you know, just kind of like an evolutionary, like, oh,

00:22:48   here's a nice little step.

00:22:49   And even when it's not, even when there's big changes with core counts and stuff, they don't

00:22:52   really talk much about, like, remember, what would they do with the, which was the Pro that

00:22:56   had, like, a really weird different number of cores than the previous Pro?

00:23:00   Yeah, it was like, it was like six and six instead of six and four.

00:23:02   Like, it had way more efficiency cores than the base.

00:23:05   Yeah, and they don't, they tend not to emphasize that, but when we're talking about chips, it's

00:23:08   one of the things we're interested in.

00:23:09   Like, have they made different decisions about how to allocate the silicon space on, you know,

00:23:14   whatever the chip is.

00:23:15   But just FYI, the M5 doesn't make different decisions than the M4 did in that area.

00:23:20   Reading from Apple, together, they deliver up to 15% faster multi-threaded performance over M4.

00:23:24   M5 also features an improved 16-core neural engine, a powerful media engine, and nearly

00:23:29   30% increase in unified memory bandwidth to 153 gigs per second.

00:23:33   The Verge says, Apple phones-

00:23:35   Oh, you skipped it again!

00:23:36   Oh, Jesus.

00:23:40   Me and Marco are watching, we're like, fingers crossed, it's gonna happen, it's gonna work.

00:23:43   He got it this time, he got it, oh, no, he missed it.

00:23:46   This is a mess.

00:23:47   You know, when I said I love doing the show with you, I'm just gonna put it in past tense

00:23:51   now.

00:23:51   I'm about to get fired.

00:23:52   I've loved doing the show with you, too.

00:23:55   I will collect my belongings.

00:23:56   I will not serve my two weeks.

00:23:58   I will hold my head in shame.

00:23:59   We can't fire you.

00:24:00   You're the favorite host.

00:24:01   All right, so one of us who's definitely not John Syracuse says the M4 was 120 gigs per

00:24:07   second instead of 153 gigs in the M5.

00:24:10   The Verge writes that Apple claims the M5 chip is three and a half times faster at AI tasks

00:24:14   than the M4.

00:24:15   Yeah, so this is actually following a very similar pattern from what we saw with the new iPhone

00:24:20   Pro processor, where the graphics performance, and especially with AI acceleration of certain

00:24:28   things by GPUs, it's a huge leap above the M4.

00:24:32   The processor is, again, it's kind of just more of an evolutionary...

00:24:36   I mean, 15% multi-threaded performance over the M4 in one year is still really good.

00:24:43   Like, when we think back to the Intel days, you were lucky to get, like, 5% to 10% with

00:24:49   each new generation, which was not every year.

00:24:51   They were usually longer than that.

00:24:53   So for Apple II, you know, in, like, the least exciting upgrade of the M5, which is the CPU

00:25:00   cores, for those to be 15% faster, it doesn't sound like much because of what we're used to

00:25:05   with the M chips, because they usually are, like, they keep leaping forward.

00:25:09   And the M4 was, in particular, a substantial leap over the M3 in CPU performance.

00:25:14   So it's impressive they were able to get 15% more.

00:25:18   But the real story with the M5 is not the CPU.

00:25:21   The real story with the M5 is the GPU cores that they've...

00:25:24   Although Apple touts...

00:25:24   I didn't put this quote in there, but Apple does tout that the power cores in the M5 are

00:25:29   the most...

00:25:29   Something like the most powerful power cores ever made, which is like, well, the only people

00:25:33   who make a thing called power cores is you.

00:25:35   No, that's not true anymore.

00:25:36   Intel now has, like...

00:25:37   I know.

00:25:37   Like, everybody has the big and little cores, you know.

00:25:40   Like, I'm not saying that Apple's the only company that makes some cores, you know, more

00:25:43   powerful than others.

00:25:44   But, like, I think they might have capitalized the P.

00:25:46   Or, like, anyways, like, what does this even mean?

00:25:47   Am I comparing the biggest compute core in your thing to the biggest compute core in any chip

00:25:52   in the world?

00:25:53   Maybe they're...

00:25:53   The biggest power PC core.

00:25:55   Yeah.

00:25:55   Anyway, the point is, Apple is very proud of the power cores.

00:25:57   Now, this is another piece of information that I'm pretty sure last time this came up that

00:26:02   we weren't entirely sure, and I'm mostly sure.

00:26:04   Remember, Mark, you asked, like, are they still doing the thing where the...

00:26:07   The CPU cores in this are from last year's phone chip and not this year's phone chip?

00:26:12   Yeah, that's what we were speculating.

00:26:13   But, no, it seems like this is a direct, you know, copy into the Mac world of what's in

00:26:18   the new iPhone chip.

00:26:18   I don't think that's the case.

00:26:20   I think these are the CPU cores, based on the CPU cores of last year's phone chip.

00:26:26   Now, the phone chip doesn't have power cores of the same kind.

00:26:30   I believe the power cores are always custom, but anyway, I would love for someone who knows

00:26:33   whether or not our...

00:26:36   Because they used to do that.

00:26:37   The M chips used to get the older cores than the phone chips.

00:26:40   Obviously, this is getting the newest GPU, like Marco said.

00:26:43   Like, that's the big headline story for the M5.

00:26:45   It gets the GPU tech that they used in the current phones, which have those, whatever,

00:26:48   neural accelerators.

00:26:49   Every GPU core gives them a big boost.

00:26:51   Like, that's clear.

00:26:52   It has that.

00:26:53   The question is, are these CPU cores...

00:26:56   And somebody...

00:26:56   Someone's going to know, because they all have those code names of, like...

00:26:59   I forget what they are, but like ice storms.

00:27:01   Tornado.

00:27:01   Yeah, like...

00:27:03   And then you can tell what they are.

00:27:04   I just...

00:27:05   You know, we don't have this hardware, and I wouldn't know how to do that anyway.

00:27:07   So, if somebody out there knows, what CPU cores are the CPU cores in the M5 based on?

00:27:12   Are they based on the A19 thing from our phones right now, or are they based on last

00:27:16   year's phone?

00:27:17   Please write in and let us know.

00:27:18   But either way, like Marco said, the CPUs, even though they're not the story, Apple touts them,

00:27:22   because, hey, they are the fastest ever by, you know, by a measurable amount.

00:27:25   But really, the GPU is the big boost.

00:27:28   And I didn't find any really big power numbers for this, but it seems like the power usage

00:27:34   is...

00:27:34   Because one of the knocks on the N3P process that these are presumably using is that it

00:27:39   didn't offer big power savings over the previous 3 nanometer process.

00:27:43   So, where are they getting, you know, the extra power from, the extra computing performance

00:27:50   from?

00:27:50   Are they spending more power to do that?

00:27:52   Based on the products that we're going to get to in a second, it doesn't look like the

00:27:55   M5.

00:27:55   The plain old M5 is particularly more power hungry than the plain old M4.

00:27:59   So, anyway, we'll see the benchmarks when they come out.

00:28:01   But so far, the M5 is looking like what we thought it would.

00:28:04   And if you care about GPU and AI performance, it's a nice little chip.

00:28:09   So, the M5 Pro, M5 Max, and other chips we are theorizing might have some different tech in

00:28:17   it.

00:28:17   So, Ming-Chi Kuo wrote in December of 2024, the M5 Pro, Max, and Ultra will utilize server-grade

00:28:22   SoIC packaging.

00:28:23   SoIC packaging, system on integrated chips.

00:28:26   Apple used 2.5D packaging called SoIC-MH, or molding horizontal, to improve production yields

00:28:32   and thermal performance, featuring separate CPU and GPU designs.

00:28:35   John, what does that mean in English?

00:28:37   Well, first thing it means is, hey, they released, as we'll see in a second, M5 MacBook Pro.

00:28:42   Where are the MacBook Pros that have the M5 Pro and the M5 Max?

00:28:46   They're not here.

00:28:47   That was, in the past couple weeks, the rumor has been they're going to release an M5 MacBook

00:28:52   Pro, which they did, but not the one that has an M5 Pro and M5 Max.

00:28:56   And why are those delayed in the M5 is not delayed?

00:28:59   The rumor, theory, whatever, is that the M5 Pro and M5 Max use this TSMC's SoIC technology,

00:29:08   which we'll detail in a little bit in a second.

00:29:09   And that's newish, and they're having problems with the yield, or it's a little bit delayed,

00:29:14   or whatever.

00:29:14   That's why the more powerful M5-based MacBook Pros have been pushed off into early 2026.

00:29:20   So, that explains the staggered schedule.

00:29:23   If the chips are ready, I think Apple would have launched them.

00:29:25   If they're not, they'll be ready early next year.

00:29:28   But yeah, again, this is not, you know, Apple's not going to comment on this, but that's been

00:29:32   the theory for a while.

00:29:33   All right, so tell me about this SoIC thing, please.

00:29:37   Yeah, trying to make a heads or tails of the language on TSMC's website to trying to find

00:29:41   an authoritative source for this.

00:29:42   This is what they have to say.

00:29:42   TSMC SoIC features ultra-high-density vertical stacking for high-performance, low-power,

00:29:47   minimum resistance, inductance, and capacitance.

00:29:49   It features heterogeneous integration of known good dyes with different chip sizes,

00:29:53   functionalities, and wafer node technologies.

00:29:55   Boy, this is such business speak.

00:29:57   Integrates both homogenous and heterogeneous chiplets into a single SoC-like chip with a

00:30:02   smaller footprint, thinner profile.

00:30:03   This chip can be holistically integrated into, here we go, C-O-W-O-S, which is chip on wafer

00:30:10   on substrate, or I-N-F-O, which is integrated fan-out package.

00:30:15   From the outside, the integrated chip looks like an ordinary SoC, but on the inside, it

00:30:18   is embedded with heterogeneously integrated functionalities.

00:30:22   So here's my, and we'll link to the web page, and you can see they have diagrams in the web

00:30:27   page that try to explain this, with a little diagram of what a plain SoC looks like and what

00:30:32   an SoIC looks like in both the C-O-W-O-S and I-N-F-O underscore P-O-P, which is integrated fan-out

00:30:39   package-on-package, of course.

00:30:41   How could it be anything else?

00:30:43   I mean, I swear, one of their acronyms, their acronyms mix capital and lowercase letters to try

00:30:49   to, you know, the ofs are lowercase o's, right?

00:30:51   And the I-N-F-O, I guess the I-N, the N is the N from integrated.

00:30:56   And they use an underscore, but sometimes they use a hyphen.

00:31:00   Anyway, not great nomenclature, but my understanding of this technology before I looked all this

00:31:06   stuff up was that this is something that would let Apple essentially fab the, like the fab the

00:31:14   GPU part as its own little, you know, thing on the, on the silicon wafer and also fab like the

00:31:21   other stuff as a separate thing, because the bigger you make, like your single unit thing that you're

00:31:26   fabbing, the more chance you have errors in the lower your yields are, right? If you made one very

00:31:31   tiny thing, uh, chances of an error landing that are small, if you make one humongous thing, you know,

00:31:36   there's going to be way more errors in there. So Apple's SoCs are very often, you know, or have been

00:31:42   historically a single die that has the CPU, the GPU, the display driver, the storage driver,

00:31:48   the neural engine, like everything is all on one die. That's one thing of silicon on the silicon

00:31:53   wafer and you cut it out as a little rectangle and either everything on that rectangle works or some

00:31:58   of it's broken or whatever. And the bigger you make that rectangle, the more expensive it gets

00:32:01   because the yields go down. So my understanding before reading this was SOIC is going to let them

00:32:07   make one rectangle for the GPU that's smaller than the whole SOC now, and one rectangle for the other

00:32:13   stuff that's also smaller than the SOC now. So you have better yields on those individual things,

00:32:17   but you'll be able to take those two things and combine them, squish them together vertically on top

00:32:22   of each other so that they perform and behave as if they were one big rectangle, but they take up less

00:32:28   room and you get better yields because you don't have to fab the whole thing in one go and make sure

00:32:33   it's all perfect. After reading this, I'm not sure if that's right anymore because they explained it in

00:32:40   such, you know, with such language that with terms that I'm, you know, probably terms of art that I'm

00:32:44   not familiar with, but also big long words and business speak. And even look at their diagrams,

00:32:49   like look at the, uh, the, uh, C, C-O-W-O-S, uh, S-O-I-C one doesn't, it's like S-O-C-1, S-O-C-2,

00:32:56   S-O-C-3 are all on top of each other. And then the memory is next to it. This is like the Mac ones.

00:33:00   The Mac ones have the high bandwidth memory, like next to the S-O-C. And then I think the

00:33:05   info pop ones, the integrated fan out package on package. I think that's what like the phones are

00:33:10   like where the Ram is on top of them. But either way, I see three small S-O-Cs, like three small dies

00:33:15   combining to make one thing. Whereas the old way was one die for S-O-C. So maybe I'm right. I don't know.

00:33:22   Anyway, we'll find out when Apple releases the M5 Pro and the M5 Max, if they use this new technology,

00:33:27   if they do, it should let Apple essentially make them more cheaply and have fewer ones that have

00:33:34   binned parts in them. Uh, especially, yeah, here we go again. Especially if they were ever to make a

00:33:39   really big, really powerful chip that would be prohibitively expensive to do as a single chip on

00:33:44   the die, you know, like...

00:33:45   Well, why would they ever do that? Who would want that?

00:33:47   What kind of professional Mac would that be used for?

00:33:50   With a huge number of cores? It's so hard to fab one giant chip like that and have everything work on

00:33:55   it. But what if you could fab just the GPU part simply from the CPU part and double your yields because

00:33:59   now you're having... Just a fantasy, I'm sure.

00:34:02   It's just a fantasy baby.

00:34:05   All right. Uh, let's talk M5 MacBook Pro because we did get one of them at least.

00:34:09   Uh, the M5... This is only the M5, not M5 Pro, not M5 Max, certainly not M5 Ultra or anything like

00:34:16   that. Uh, the case appears to be about the same as far as I can tell. The M5 itself, again, 10-core

00:34:21   CPU, excuse me, for performance, 6-efficiency, uh, 10-core GPU as well. There are currently no

00:34:26   binned versions as far as we can tell. Uh, Apple has said it's a breakthrough for M1 and Intel-based

00:34:34   upgraders. Interesting.

00:34:35   Yeah, see, they've moved the window. Like, what we've seen is that, like, you know, ever

00:34:40   since the M-series chips came out, what, uh, five years ago now? Um, they've been, you know,

00:34:47   very aggressively touting, like, look at how much faster it is than Intel and our Intel-based

00:34:52   Macs that came before us. And then, you know, over the, you know, over the five years since

00:34:57   the M1 was released, they kept comparing everything to Intel. And they kept saying,

00:35:04   like, you know, here's the new, brand new M2. It's this much faster than Intel. Here's

00:35:09   the brand new M3. It's this much faster than Intel. And they kept going, and, you know, we've

00:35:12   all assumed, like, this is basically, like, they're trying to get upgraders. They're trying

00:35:16   to, like, recognize that people keep laptops for a pretty long time these days, and they're

00:35:20   trying to say, hey, if you're still using this old Intel piece of crap, you know, upgrade

00:35:25   to our awesome, shiny new M chips. And by the way, they were right. They were. Like,

00:35:31   this is not BS. Like, if you were still using an Intel Mac and they're trying, you, like,

00:35:35   I know it's hard because everyone knows everything is great. I know, John, who would still be using

00:35:39   an Intel Mac today? Yeah, I know. I know. I know. But, like, I know it's the silliness

00:35:42   of me doing, but, like, but if you have, like, an Intel iMac and you think, honestly, how much

00:35:47   better is, like, an M2 iMac going to be than my Intel one? A lot. A huge amount that you

00:35:52   will notice. Like, like, so anyway, I, I understood, it got ridiculous because it's

00:35:57   like, okay, even if you weren't comparing to Intel, comparing to, like, a four-year-old

00:36:01   CPU, well, you better be faster. But, uh, yeah, I, that was their message. But, yeah,

00:36:05   their message has now shifted. Yeah, this is the first time they're using that kind

00:36:09   of, like, reaching far back upgrade relativism, uh, to apply to an M chip. Because the M1, even

00:36:15   though it was incredibly awesome, it was five years ago. And the M chips, as I said

00:36:20   earlier, like, they, they get substantially better each, each generation. So we're now

00:36:25   up to M5. It's really fast, even compared to M1. And it does seem ridiculous to still

00:36:32   compare it to Intel now at this point. So now they're finally saying, hey, if you, if you've

00:36:36   been holding on to that ancient M1 that we, aren't they still selling it at Walmart? Is

00:36:42   that still for a second? But here's the problem with this comparison. The M1 is actually still

00:36:46   pretty good for a lot of things. Like, it's not, if you have some fanless M1 MacBook Air

00:36:50   that you're still using, like, if it still works, it's probably fine. And that's a problem

00:36:55   for Apple. They're like, you know, if you make really good computing products, they last

00:36:58   longer. And Apple wants you to eventually buy a new one, you know? Right. But the M1 is just

00:37:03   so much. There was such a leap from the Intel, especially for things like laptops, like, or

00:37:07   like fanless laptops, like the fanless M1 MacBook Air compared to the Intel MacBook Air that was

00:37:12   before it. It's just such a night and day difference. And I have an M1 MacBook Air on my desk here,

00:37:16   and it's still, it's still fine. But anyway, they're, yeah, that's still the one that that's

00:37:21   the one they're still selling at Walmart. But like, if you have like a higher end one, you

00:37:26   know, you have, you have things like fans, you know, you have larger dies, like, you know,

00:37:29   the, the, you know, big, more heat is going through that, that kind of enclosure. And so

00:37:33   like the idea, like it might, those tend to die earlier than the lower end ones. Like

00:37:37   the lower end is simpler, that the less powerful, the less hot your, your machine is, the more

00:37:43   likely it is generally to last longer, especially if there's no moving parts, like no fans. So

00:37:48   yeah, that those M1 MacBook Airs, there's probably a lot of them still kicking. Like, you know,

00:37:53   they're going to start having problems, you know, the batteries are going to wear out,

00:37:55   they'll start having like keyboard problems, like, you know, just from age, like, you know,

00:37:58   so the, the, the reality is the M1 is, you know, pretty old at this point, even though

00:38:03   it was so awesome and still is, you know, awfully good compared to what a lot of things can do

00:38:08   now. But, um, the reality is they've come a long way and the modern M chips are so much

00:38:14   faster that they're now saying, listen, even if you came along with us five years ago with

00:38:18   the M1 and got that big leap, now there's another big leap next time you upgrade and

00:38:24   hey, why don't you do it now? Um, and, and they're not wrong. Like, you know, if, if you

00:38:27   would use that performance or if you need the upgrade, it is a massive upgrade from where we

00:38:33   were back then. Yeah. The, the compounding a couple percent each year or whatever on

00:38:37   everything adds up to this copy in their marketing. M1 upgraders. And it's not a couple percent each

00:38:41   year. It's like 20%. It's, it's a lot. It depends. But anyway, M1 upgraders will experience

00:38:47   up to six times faster AI performance, up to 6.8 times faster GPU performance with ray tracing and

00:38:53   up to two times faster CPU performance. Now the ray tracing, obviously there was no ray tracing

00:38:57   card where in the old ones there is now. So that feels kind of unfair or whatever. And who will even

00:39:01   use that? But the CPU one, they've doubled it. Like the, these M5 is basically twice as fast in CPU

00:39:07   as the M1. So between M1 and M5, they doubled. That's pretty darn good. That is a good compounding of,

00:39:13   uh, of gains over years. I still think the M1 is pretty good, but that's the,

00:39:16   the curse of making a really good product is, uh, it's harder to top yourself.

00:39:20   Yep. And your, your AI will run a little bit faster as you load chatgpt.com in your web browser.

00:39:26   All right. So breaking down the different options that you can have 16, 24, 32 gigs of Ram. You can

00:39:33   have a half gig, excuse me, half terabyte through four terabytes. Uh, that is less than the bigger,

00:39:40   um, models that are currently available. And additionally, you can get up to two times faster SSD performance

00:39:45   than the prior generation. Well, that's cool. You'll see that claim and basically all the M5

00:39:49   based products. I'm not sure what it's based on. I saw one thing that said it's based on them using a

00:39:53   newer storage technology or newer storage standard. So we'll find out when people benchmark these, but

00:39:57   that is one of the claims. M5, you get two times faster SSD performance than the M4.

00:40:01   Do you think when they say up to two times faster, do you think they mean only certain

00:40:06   configurations or on, or only under certain conditions? Yeah. That's the question. Like,

00:40:10   Oh, do I need to get the four terabyte model to do that? Is it one to two chip, one versus two chip

00:40:14   thing? Remember they, but they undid that. Like they did that a while ago and then they said,

00:40:17   no, but we, they fixed it. And they said, no, everybody's going to get the good performance

00:40:20   of the two chips. Do some of them have four chips? So we'll, we'll find this out when they

00:40:23   start testing them. But that is, that is the quote up to two times faster SSD performance

00:40:27   in these M5 based products. They are offering the nanotexture display for 150 bucks.

00:40:33   Yes. Let me just say, I got the M4 version of this like, you know, a year ago, whatever.

00:40:38   It's so good. No, stop. I don't want to hear this because I don't have it and I'm jealous.

00:40:43   A huge reason why is that nanotexture screen. I, it is, if you actually like are taking your laptop

00:40:50   around out in the world, I cannot more highly recommend the nanotexture screen. It's so

00:40:57   incredibly good. It was one of the reasons why I upgraded from my M2 MacBook Air to this

00:41:02   M4 14 inch MacBook Pro. And I would, I will not go back for the screen alone. It is so useful if

00:41:10   you're like on, you know, mass transit, like you're, you know, you're sitting next to a window

00:41:15   somewhere. Like it's so good. Strongly recommend nanotexture. A lot of people don't like the fingerprint

00:41:20   difficulty. It's hard to get fingerprints on that screen. It's hard to get them off even with the

00:41:23   polishing cloth that comes with it. I, for whatever it's worth, I have not found nanotexture to be

00:41:29   harder to clean than the regular shiny screens have always been. Like, you know, when you, when you get

00:41:34   like that one slight row of keyboard imprints on it, you're like, Oh, I better, you know, catch up to

00:41:40   that before it gets out of hand. You know, you get the microfiber, you get the spray or whatever it is.

00:41:44   Like it's, it's hard to clean, but so are all of their screens. Like, so, and, and as long as you

00:41:51   are not like a monster constantly touching your screen, it's, it's not going to look dirty.

00:41:56   Yeah. That's the problem with the nanotexture iPad, which we'll get to in a second because you

00:42:00   touched that one. So, well, I believe, so do we have info? So like, I believe with the iPad,

00:42:05   didn't they like put the coating on the underside of the glass or something?

00:42:08   No, no, but the three nanotexture coating is three nanotexture screens. They offer the XDR,

00:42:14   the MacBook pro and the iPad, I believe are three different. I believe that's right.

00:42:19   Things that I don't know if they're different technologies, but they're, if you look at the

00:42:22   three of them under a microscope, I believe you could distinguish them. And so I think they did

00:42:26   try to make the iPad one. I think it has like essentially a rougher texture, like bigger divots

00:42:33   instead of tiny ones. And maybe that makes it easier to clean, but you know, everything's relative.

00:42:38   Like I, I'm glad that I don't actually like the nanotexture one, but what Marco's talking about

00:42:42   is even if you don't like the nanotexture, even if you don't like how it looks, it does have

00:42:45   advantages. If you're in uncontrolled lighting situations, like on the go with your laptop,

00:42:49   because sometimes the glare from the glossy ones and you know, you, if you can't control where

00:42:52   you are, you're on a train and some, the lights coming in through the window, you just literally

00:42:55   can't see your screen on a glossy screen and there's nothing you can do about that. And the

00:42:59   nanotexture helps there. So that I understand the attraction to it. I just don't actually like how it

00:43:02   looks. The interfaces you can get Wi-Fi 6E or it still has, I guess I should say Wi-Fi 6E. It's

00:43:08   still Bluetooth 5.3 and it's still Thunderbolt 4, not Thunderbolt 5. Interestingly. Makes sense for

00:43:14   the base M5. Like I'm not kind of sure. The Wi-Fi 6E one annoys me because as we'll see in a little bit,

00:43:19   because you know, we know Apple has ways to get better Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, but not in the base M5

00:43:26   MacBook Pro. Seems not. The power adapter, you get a 70 watt power adapter standard unless you're in

00:43:32   the EU, in which case you get nothing. Good day, sir. You can add the 96 watt power adapter for an

00:43:39   additional 20 bucks. Building on what I was saying a moment ago from Mac rumors, there's no power

00:43:44   adapter in the box in European countries, including the UK, Ireland, Germany, Italy, France, Spain,

00:43:48   the Netherlands, Norway, and others, according to Apple's online store. An Apple spokesperson told

00:43:53   the French website Numerama, Nicolas Lelouch, let's go with that. I can't do French. I can barely

00:44:01   do English. That the decision to not include a charger with this particular MacBook Pro is made

00:44:04   in anticipation of a European regulation that will require Apple to provide customers with the option

00:44:08   to purchase certain devices without a charger in the box starting in April. Apple does still include

00:44:13   the USB safe to MagSafe 3 cable in the box, however. So you get the cable, you just don't get the

00:44:19   thing that you plug the cable into. So you like the MagSafe cable because they have MagSafe on them.

00:44:24   So you need the cable that has that end to magnetize to the power port. Of course, you can just use the

00:44:28   USB-C port as well. But anyway, that's like, you know, it would have been nice if Apple gave an option

00:44:34   to get the charging thing, but they don't. You just don't get it.

00:44:37   Well, they do. The option is you can pay for it.

00:44:40   I guess. Like, let's have it in the box or whatever.

00:44:43   Yeah. I mean, it's, I understand, you know, Apple's kind of, I know they're no fan of the EU

00:44:48   regulation, but, you know, they, instead of cutting the price by, you know, 30 pounds or whatever,

00:44:55   they just said, oh, fine. Okay. We'll just make it optional. So it's effectively a price raise.

00:44:59   Like that's, that's what this means.

00:45:01   Savings on to you is not a phrase that's in Apple's vocabulary.

00:45:03   Oh, definitely not.

00:45:05   Certainly not indeed. All right. The colors, prepare yourselves. This is a really shocking

00:45:12   development from Apple. The colors are as follows, silver and space black.

00:45:17   Yeah, no change there. It's a MacBook Pro. We know what that means. That means they will occasionally

00:45:24   about every five years, design a new shade of black for you. And otherwise, that's it. You can get

00:45:29   black or silver. The OLED ones that are coming in 2027 will become a cosmic orange and you'll

00:45:35   love it. That'll, oh my God, that'll be amazing. I would upgrade just for that.

00:45:38   I think that would be a little bit too much orange for my taste, but you know, I would approve of

00:45:42   it being a thing. I actually, I use orange. Like, so my, my desktop Mac, I just use like the regular

00:45:49   Mac multicolor color scheme on my to-go Mac with this nanotexture screen. I use orange as the system

00:45:57   accent color. Just, just for like some fun, some variety.

00:46:00   So every app feels like overcast?

00:46:01   Yeah, it's really fun actually. Like I've never, I've never used the accent color in any other Macs

00:46:06   before. But I'm like, you know, for this one, like I, it's because it's like a different computer,

00:46:10   it's a different size. I use a different wallpaper on it. I have a few different settings on it.

00:46:15   And that I, like I, I auto hide the dock on that one, but not on my desktop because the monitor's

00:46:20   huge. Um, and so that's the one I'm like, let me also, you know, make this accent color orange.

00:46:25   And that one's, that one has Tahoe and my desktop still does not. So it's, it's kind of fun to have

00:46:30   like this all new experience whenever I'm on the go. It's nice.

00:46:33   Do you remember the, uh, the original IMAX that came with those themes or they would come with like,

00:46:38   you could change the accent color. Obviously it was just part of classic Mac OS, but also they came

00:46:41   with desktop backgrounds to match those memories like the flying saucers. Uh, this may have been

00:46:46   before your time, but Apple has done this where they, I mean, they kind of do it with the current

00:46:49   IMAX where they will, everything is themed, including the software part of it. Uh, it's fun if you've

00:46:54   never done that, but the, the theme ability of Mac OS has really gone downhill, uh, over the years.

00:46:59   That's too bad. Uh, the price is starting at $1,600. You can pre-order it as we speak. It'll be in

00:47:05   stores on October 22nd, which interestingly is a Wednesday. It's not a Friday as it often is. It's a

00:47:11   Wednesday. Let me, well, before we leave the subject of, of this base model, MacBook Pro 14 inch,

00:47:16   let me just also say that, you know, when I got this, you know, I was trying to choose like,

00:47:20   should I, should I get like a super fast one, like an M, like an M, uh, for pro or max and decided to

00:47:27   just get the base M4 in large part because the M4 is really fast. And it actually, if you look at the

00:47:33   M4 pro and max for CPU, they, it doesn't actually scale up that well. Um, it's, it's much more of a

00:47:42   GPU beast as you scale it up, but CPU does not actually scale amazingly linearly with those core

00:47:46   counts. Um, and it's so like the base is so good. The base M4 is so good and you get amazing battery

00:47:55   life for it. You get all the other benefits of the pro you get like, you know, the, the nicer screen,

00:47:59   the nicer speakers, nicer microphones. You get like all the ports, you get the SD cards. Like it's,

00:48:04   it's an amazing overall machine, but you still, but you, you have a lower price, you have better

00:48:11   battery life. Like it's a great overall combo. This new M5 14 inch MacBook pro looks to basically

00:48:16   be the identical machine with the M5 instead. Like everything else looks basically the same.

00:48:20   And I can strongly recommend this machine overall. We haven't yet seen the, you know,

00:48:26   as discussed earlier, we haven't yet seen what the M5 pro and max chips will be or whatever their

00:48:30   equivalents are. We haven't seen that yet. And maybe there'll be amazing performance monsters,

00:48:35   probably. Uh, but if you don't necessarily think you need that, or if you're coming from like,

00:48:40   if you compare the performance of the M4 and M5 base models to like the M2 max or the M3 max,

00:48:50   it compares very well, surprisingly, cause it was such a leap. I think, uh, what's his name?

00:48:55   The, what's Lucas M something that who's the YouTuber that I'm thinking of. He's got like,

00:49:00   I know who you're thinking of. I can't remember his name. Anyway, I think he did a video just today

00:49:04   where he was benchmarking the base, just the plain old M5 versus an M4 pro and the M5 beat it in almost

00:49:10   everything. And so that's not two generations old. That's, that's the plain M5 beating the previous

00:49:14   generation M4 pro. So that is, uh, you know,

00:49:17   and those destroy anything from the M one through three generations, which themselves were very fast.

00:49:21   So like, what I'm saying is this machine could be right for you. Like this machine is right for a

00:49:26   lot of people. It has been amazingly right for me as my on the go machine. And it's fast enough that

00:49:31   if I needed it to be, it could be my only machine. It's that good. And so the M5 version makes that

00:49:37   even better, especially on the GPU side, but you know, it's even better. Um, so this is a solid

00:49:42   all around her. And if you are in need of something anywhere close to this combination,

00:49:47   I would strongly recommend checking it out. And if you ever work in the sun, get it in a texture.

00:49:52   This is the last hurrah of this design too, probably because everyone expects when the OLED ones come,

00:49:58   which is going to be the M6 ones, most likely, uh, that they'll redesign the case, right? So if you like

00:50:03   this case, uh, this was the last best one to get with this case design or this, this generation of the M5

00:50:10   generation, uh, maybe the M6, obviously the OLED will be amazing and that'll be very attractive.

00:50:14   And you might want to wait for that model, but if you don't care about OLED and you're worried that

00:50:19   you're not going to like whatever they do to the design and the next one, it's another possible

00:50:22   reason to get like the last one of this generation before they have generational turnover off the top

00:50:28   of your head. Do you folks remember what is the display limitations for the vanilla versus pro

00:50:34   versus max chips? Because I remember early on you had to have like the pro or the max to have,

00:50:39   uh, you know, more than a couple of displays. Do you happen to remember offhand where that is now?

00:50:43   Yeah, no, they, they fixed that in the M3 or M4 generation.

00:50:47   Well, that's why I was asking.

00:50:48   Yeah. I didn't, I didn't put the display specs in here. I didn't have time to look that up,

00:50:52   but I would imagine it's the same as the M4, but I think it's two external displays for this one.

00:50:56   We can look it up.

00:50:57   Well, I tried to look it up quickly using the compare thing on the app, on the store. And I

00:51:01   couldn't, I couldn't get a clear answer quickly as we recorded, but I was thinking, you know,

00:51:05   what drives me to a max? I currently have an M3 max. If I were to go tomorrow, could I just get a

00:51:12   vanilla M5? And the things that I was thinking about was I have an eight terabyte drive for

00:51:18   reasons that I stand by, but I'm not interested litigating right now. And I think that that might

00:51:22   require either a pro or a max. Um, I use three external displays and that used to require a pro

00:51:29   or a max. Yeah, it still does. They, this one says on, on Apple's, uh, MacBook M5 macro process,

00:51:34   it's up to two external displays, 6k resolution at 60 Hertz. So there's no, there's no three displays

00:51:40   connected to this. Okay. So then that would need either a pro or a max. Well, it says,

00:51:43   or one external display at 6k resolution over Thunderbolt and one external with HDMI. So that's

00:51:49   still just two. Yeah. If they're not all Thunderbolt, I believe you get some bonuses here

00:51:53   and there. Um, cause the HDMI does count as one of the outputs. Um, but yeah, generally speaking,

00:51:58   what you're looking at is like, if you need a lot of Ram or a lot of storage or a lot of GPU power

00:52:04   or a lot of monitors, like that's, Oh, that's, that's something I forgot to mention before I

00:52:09   should have put in the notes, the SOIC thing for the supposed M5 pro and M5 max. Soik.

00:52:17   One of the other, I mean, I don't think this is true, but before things are announced,

00:52:21   people can have their hopes and fantasies. And one of the hopes and fantasies is that if you make

00:52:26   the M5 pro and M5 max out of a bunch of individually made dyes and combine them into one big SOC

00:52:33   in theory, I don't really buy this, but in theory, it would allow Apple to divorce the beefiness of the

00:52:41   CPU from the beefiness of the GPU. Cause they can mix and match in practice.

00:52:46   Hey, I don't think Apple would do that. And B I'm not sure how much flexibility there is because

00:52:49   the way they get connected together seems very intimate and regimented because it's not like

00:52:55   someone joked in the ring thing. Like imagine if they had the GPU on a separate card from the CPU,

00:52:58   like the, in the old days when they were separated, the whole point of Apple's architecture is like

00:53:03   they're so close to each other or on the same die because there are performance benefits.

00:53:08   So this SOIC thing is not like, Oh, just have separate CPU and GPU again.

00:53:12   They're literally on top of each other. They're touching each other. So they're trying to get all

00:53:16   the performance, power, latency, so on and so forth benefits of having an all in one die while still

00:53:22   being able to fab them separately. I don't think Apple will mix and match because someone's like,

00:53:27   Oh, I want a really big GPU, but I don't need this frigging, you know, 28 core CPU. Can I get

00:53:32   a smaller core count on the CPU, but the biggest GPU? And you can now fantasize that that will be

00:53:38   possible with this SOIC thing. I just don't think Apple will do it, but there's that.

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00:55:35   Then they also announced the M5 iPad Pro. This is going to be a little bit interesting. So models with

00:55:49   one terabyte, excuse me, less than one terabyte of storage get a nine core CPU, three performance, which

00:55:55   is down one from the M5 MacBook Pro, and six efficiency. They get 12 gigs of RAM. Models with

00:56:01   one terabyte or two terabytes of storage get a 10 core CPU with four performance, six efficiency like

00:56:07   the M5 MacBook Pro, and 16 gigs of RAM. And all of the models share a 10 core GPU.

00:56:14   I was trying to figure out also, you know, time constraints, the fact that there's no binned M5 for

00:56:20   the MacBook Pro. Because we just read there's binned, binned based on storage, which is so weird,

00:56:24   but whatever. They've been doing it this way on the iPad Pro. If you get less storage, you get a binned

00:56:29   M5 on the iPad Pro. But no matter what M5 MacBook Pro you get, they're all, everything, all the cores

00:56:35   work on all of them. Did they do that with the M4 as well?

00:56:37   Yes. The M4, so the, when you get to the, the MacBook Pro family, the base model M chip is considered

00:56:46   the lowest end option. And so they, they give you like the best one of those. And, but like in the,

00:56:53   you know, whenever they inevitably release like an M5 MacBook Air, for instance, there will be almost

00:56:58   certainly binned base M5s in the Mac, in the low end configuration of the MacBook Air. But once you get

00:57:03   to the Pro, it was always like, all right, the base M chip, this is always the best version of that.

00:57:08   Then you can get binned M4 Pros and binned M4 Maxes.

00:57:11   You can still, today, buy binned M4 Pros. I don't, the Maxes, do they bin those too? I think

00:57:15   they do this time. They don't always.

00:57:17   Yeah, I think they do. Again, because the bigger you make the chip, the more likely there's going

00:57:20   to be some flaw somewhere and they want to be able to make money of those. So they'll sell the

00:57:23   binned ones.

00:57:23   Exactly. And to actually get this, you know, part of what I'm saying about like, if you actually,

00:57:28   if you don't need like massive GPU performance, when you look at the CPU performance of like the,

00:57:35   the base M4 and compare it to the M4 Pro, especially like the binned M4 Pros that you get for going

00:57:42   like a few hundred dollars up, you're actually not having that big of a gain. And then to get the full

00:57:49   cores of the Pro chip, it's like $800 more than the cost of the base chip model here. So you end up paying

00:57:58   a large premium for some more CPU performance, but it's actually like the base model chip is where

00:58:07   all the value is. Like if you're trying to maximize bang for your buck, that's it. It's the base model

00:58:12   M4 or M5. That's it.

00:58:14   So with the M5 iPad Pro, you get up to two times faster storage read and write speeds. You get the

00:58:22   C1X in the cellular version, you get the N1 for Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6 and Thread, which John, that is

00:58:29   different from the M5 MacBook Pro because that was Wi-Fi 6, right? I can't scroll that quickly.

00:58:35   6E. 6E, thank you.

00:58:36   The Macs have been stuck. The Macs have not had Wi-Fi 7. And we're hoping with the M5 generation,

00:58:41   they would get Wi-Fi 7. Well, maybe they still will, but not the base M5 MacBook Pro. But the M5 iPad Pro

00:58:48   does get all the new fancy chips from the iPhone Air. It gets the C1X, it gets the N1. The N1 was

00:58:54   used in all the new phones. Why didn't they put the N1 in the M5 MacBook Pro? I don't know, but they didn't.

00:59:01   So you get, like I said, Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6 and Thread. You can drive external displays with this as you

00:59:07   could before, except at up to 120 hertz. Interesting. And additionally, it supports adaptive sync for lower

00:59:15   latency. You can fast charge up to 50%, about half an hour with a 40-watt adapter or higher.

00:59:21   There are the same sizes and same weights as the M4 models, 11-inch and 13-inch. The nanotexture

00:59:27   is a $100 option, and it's only available on the 1 and 2 terabyte models. The storage options,

00:59:33   speaking of, are 256, 512, 1 and 2 terabytes. The price starts at $1,000 for Wi-Fi with 256 gigs. Again,

00:59:40   pre-order today in stores a week from today as we record this. And so that is the new

00:59:46   M5 iPad Pro. John, are you buying one?

00:59:49   No.

00:59:51   I mean, like, so I, again, my, I use my iPad. I bought it when they got the OLED screen because

00:59:57   I use it as a little TV. This has the same screen, so I have no reason to get this. I don't, I'm not

01:00:01   an iPad power user, but it's a good iPad. If you want, if you didn't buy an M4 OLED one and you want

01:00:07   a little TV, this is great. I highly recommend it. And if you want a powerful iPad because you're that

01:00:12   kind of person, this one's even better than the M4 one. Didn't change anything else about it. There

01:00:16   were some rumors like, oh, they're going to add a second camera. So there's one on the long edge and

01:00:20   one on the short edge. They didn't do that. Like there's, it's this, if you have to characterize this

01:00:24   whole set of announcements, like take our existing products that had other chips in them and put in M5s

01:00:28   and don't change much else. I'm actually kind of surprised that they swapped in the C1X and the N1,

01:00:33   but I guess in a low power device like an iPad, they figured it was worth it. Whereas in

01:00:37   the MacBook Pro, they're like, ah, it's the base MacBook Pro and we got a big battery anyway.

01:00:42   I don't know what the thing is. It's, it's been a shame that the Macs have been kept out of the

01:00:46   Wi-Fi 7 family for so long and it still seems to continue. I'll be really disappointed if the

01:00:51   M5 Pro and Macs, MacBook Pros that are released next year also don't have Wi-Fi 7.

01:00:56   Yeah. I think, I think the time has come for that, but we'll, yeah, we'll see. I think this,

01:01:01   this new iPad, it looks, it, you know, and we'll get to this in the Vision Pro segment in a second,

01:01:07   probably, but like it, it is exactly a, a speed bump update, you know, again, just like that M4 or

01:01:14   the M5 MacBook Pro. It's a speed bump update and it's to a really good speed and it's to a product

01:01:20   that is already like, you know, the iPad and the MacBook Pro, like these are already really great

01:01:24   products, really high end, you know, great performance, like great everything. If you

01:01:31   happen to use this product and need a really nice one, that's a really nice one. The iPad Pro is not

01:01:37   something I really use, so I, I don't have much else to say about it because they, they've pushed

01:01:43   the, the hardware and the price so far up that I feel like if you're buying this, you probably

01:01:49   really like it a lot and really use it a lot. And neither of those are really the case for me,

01:01:54   but it looks like a really good update for people who, for whom it is the case.

01:01:57   The time has come. The M5 Apple Vision Pro is here. This is the first revision of the Vision Pro

01:02:05   since it came out in what, February of 24. Do I have that right? Something like that.

01:02:09   And so we're reading from Apple's newsroom with M5, Apple Vision Pro renders 10% more pixels on the

01:02:15   custom micro OLED displays compared to the previous generation, resulting in a sharper image with

01:02:20   crisper text, Marco Arment and more detailed visuals. Vision Pro can also increase the refresh rate up to

01:02:26   120 Hertz for reduced motion blur when users look at their physical surroundings and even in an even

01:02:31   smoother experience when using Mac virtual display. Uh, and the verge rights, the previous maximum

01:02:36   refresh rate was a hundred Hertz. Also AI powered features like persona or spatial photos are up to 50%

01:02:42   faster. And the battery life is also improved by about 30 minutes to about two and a half hours of

01:02:46   general use in three hours of video playback. That's nice that, that, uh, that you do get a

01:02:51   battery life bump in this, because it seems like they basically only changed the SOC and I'm, I guess

01:02:56   the M2 is old and this is three nanometer and whatever the M2 was, that can make some sense. But anyway,

01:03:00   the bit about rendering 10% more pixels on the screen, uh, the way I interpret that and, uh,

01:03:06   Apple hasn't said anything to, uh, negate this is that the screens are the same, like the hardware,

01:03:12   the actual hardware that's in those are exactly the same as they've ever been. But kind of like,

01:03:16   uh, when you, if you're used to playing video games, there is a difference between the render

01:03:19   resolution and the display resolution. So internally a game, for example, can render the scene at some

01:03:26   resolution, but then when it comes time to display it, it may have rendered it as a, at a smaller

01:03:31   resolution than your screen, or it may have rendered it at a bigger resolution than your screen.

01:03:35   And it will scale it either up or down to fit the display. And my understanding of the statement

01:03:39   is that they are going to have a 10% larger, 10% more pixels in their render resolution before they

01:03:46   say, okay, now display this on the eye displays. And I'm assuming they're mostly scaling up to the

01:03:52   eye displays. Cause as Marco has pointed out in the past, like they don't have even resolution

01:03:56   distribution. Like you have more pixel density in the center. Again, not the hardware that software

01:04:01   wise, like when they have the image that they're showing you the image of the world or the images of

01:04:06   your windows floating in the world or whatever, they render it with more detail in the part where

01:04:11   you're from. First of all, they have foveated rendering, which is like tracks where you're

01:04:13   looking and renders it more detail there.

01:04:14   Yeah. That honestly, that's kind of what I assumed this was referring to. I thought they were saying,

01:04:18   I mean, again, we don't know yet. I assumed by saying 10% more pixels, I thought maybe they're

01:04:24   going to just increase the size of the foveated in focus range a little bit.

01:04:28   It all amounts to the same thing because if you take the image that they eventually display,

01:04:33   it's not like a normal rectangular looking image. It's some weird warp thing that they,

01:04:36   you know, put through the lenses and everything. Like, so if you spend more pixels, if you make,

01:04:41   if you're going to make the foveated rendering area bigger, you'd have to spend more pixels to

01:04:45   render more information there before it gets squished down. Um, yeah, so that's what I'm,

01:04:50   that's what I'm assuming they're doing that they're, their render target, like internally in memory

01:04:55   has 10% more pixels, but then they take that image and squish it down onto the same screen.

01:05:00   They always had now where those pixels end up. Probably they added more in the center.

01:05:03   Maybe they added more detail around the edges. So the edges aren't as blurry as they were. I don't

01:05:07   know. Um, maybe when somebody gets one of these and starts to test it, they can figure it out either

01:05:11   way. 10% is not a lot. Um, so I wouldn't expect miracles from this, like clearer text or whatever.

01:05:16   Maybe it's better, but like they didn't change the screens. It seems like if they had, I feel like

01:05:20   they would be touting that like the micro LED displays are exactly the same as they were on the

01:05:24   original vision pro according to everything that Apple has put out today.

01:05:27   That is not at all what I got from this announcement. I assumed it meant that the

01:05:31   displays were a little bit bigger, but you're probably right. And I'm probably wrong to be

01:05:35   honest with you, but, um, if they are bigger, I mean, that'll, that'll, as soon as someone gets

01:05:39   one of these and breaks it up and we'll find out, like if they're, if the screens are 10% bigger,

01:05:42   that should be pretty obvious to someone with a ruler, but I don't think they would have used the

01:05:46   term pixels then like, you know, so that's, I, it seems like they have made a couple of

01:05:52   improvements to the displays that, that I think were actually not rumored at all. Like, you know,

01:05:57   the rumors were like, it'll be an M5 update. Okay. No one knew anything about it really. Oh,

01:06:01   and the strap was rumored too. Um, but it seems like, you know, whatever the 10% more pixels,

01:06:05   which I'm pretty sure is a foveated rendering thing, but we'll find out they're rendering more of

01:06:09   that. And I think one of the interesting parts is they said that they are, um, they're officially

01:06:14   saying 120 Hertz now, which is what the, the up to, uh, level of the screen, which I believe

01:06:19   it was not discussed before, but I think it was 90 in the first generation one.

01:06:24   That was a hundred. We just said, Oh, right. I'm sorry. A hundred previous maximum was a hundred.

01:06:27   Okay. And then, um, they also said that the pass through video now runs at a higher refresh rate,

01:06:34   which that's been one of the areas that like, if you ever used a meta quest headset and then you use

01:06:39   a vision pro, you're like, wow, the, the meta quest, like it's much lower resolution,

01:06:43   but the, the pass through video is so fast and so smooth because that's something that's made to be

01:06:50   used with the, with the user in constant motion. If you're playing games, you are in constant motion.

01:06:56   So the, the pass through video experience is very important to be very fast, very low latency.

01:07:01   And that's something that the first generation vision pro, I always noticed that like, this is

01:07:05   obviously a device made to be used just when, when the user is stationary, when you were sitting on a

01:07:09   couch or something and the pass through video was always a little bit smeary and blurry and laggy.

01:07:14   It's still, you know, the, the, the resolution of it was way better than the quest series headsets,

01:07:20   but the motion was not. So this sounds like they've made a substantial improvement to the pass through

01:07:26   video as well. I am interested to hear about that. Like whenever we know somebody who has one of these

01:07:30   things, I'm definitely not buying one, but whenever we know somebody who has one, I am curious to hear

01:07:35   like how much better is the pass through motion than it was before.

01:07:40   Yeah. And the up to is key here. Like in the swapping out the M2, the M5, the M5 is more powerful.

01:07:45   It's got more powerful, everything in it. So to the extent that the M2 was holding it back from

01:07:50   maintaining that maximum of a hundred Hertz, because I think a hundred Hertz would look smooth, but it was,

01:07:53   it's up to like, that's the maximum. So if things get laggy or whatever, it's going to update at a lower

01:07:59   refresh rate. So hopefully not only will this be able to reach a higher peak of 120 instead of a hundred,

01:08:03   but it'll be able to sustain a higher one without taxing the SOC. Because again, we've made a lot

01:08:10   of progress from the M2 to the M5. So that's reaping the benefits from that.

01:08:13   All right. So it still uses the original R1. It comes with Apple's new 40 to 60 watt dynamic power

01:08:21   adapter. It is still on wifi six and Bluetooth 5.3.

01:08:25   Not even 6E because the Vision Pro had wifi six, not 6E. So no change there from the launch version.

01:08:31   Pricing storage and Ram are also unchanged. You can pre-order today as, as with the other devices in

01:08:36   store on Wednesday, the 22nd. Um, and also dear Vision Pro, uh, original Vision Pro owners get

01:08:43   beat love Apple, uh, because you cannot trade in your, uh, original M2 Vision Pro. Uh, sorry about

01:08:50   that. Womp womp, but tough noogies.

01:08:52   I mean, maybe they'll change that, but, uh, yeah, it's, that's disappointing because I bet

01:08:56   they'd get a lot of takers. The biggest fans of the thing are like, well, I love this thing,

01:09:00   but I'm not going to pay another 300 or 500 bucks. Can I trade this in? Nope.

01:09:03   I, I don't, I mean, well, we'll get to the, I guess we'll get to the skepticism in a minute,

01:09:10   but like, I just, frankly, I don't think there's going to be that many people who are rushing

01:09:14   to upgrade. Uh, I think if you, if you spent $3,500 plus on this thing two years ago, I can't

01:09:25   imagine that you're like, I've gotten so much value out of that. I definitely want to spend

01:09:30   another $3,500 plus on the next one already so soon with not substantially more content

01:09:39   or apps than we had two years ago. Like that, I think that's going to be a tough selling. I think

01:09:43   this is, this does not feel like an update to expand its market for lots of reasons. This feels

01:09:51   like an update to keep the product alive for a little while longer while they figure out what

01:09:55   to do about it. This, you know, this is, again, it's a spec bump at, you know, it's a nice spec bump,

01:10:00   but if you look at all the reasons people would not have bought the first one, they have solved

01:10:06   literally zero of them with this update. Like it's still the same design. It's still big, heavy. It's

01:10:14   still massively expensive compared to any other VR headset on the market. It still has very little

01:10:20   content, very, very few apps. It's in a rough spot in terms of like, who's buying this? I think what

01:10:27   they have found is they have a small market for it, probably with, you know, people who are making

01:10:34   3D content or making, you know, making immersive video, making immersive content, you know, so you

01:10:38   have like the, the, you know, high-end content creators and editors and stuff like that who are

01:10:42   using them. You probably have some specialized industrial kind of uses, but like probably not a huge

01:10:48   market for that. Like this is a product that justifies almost no investment from Apple. And

01:10:54   so it has gotten almost no investment from Apple. Um, this is literally keeping it alive until they

01:11:00   figure out what to do next, which might be not much in this area. But if, you know, for all the reasons

01:11:07   that this market is so small, this will address zero of those reasons. This will not expand the market

01:11:13   at all. All it does is keep this product from dying for another few years and then we'll see what

01:11:18   happens.

01:11:19   Yeah. Two zeros in there. It solves zeros of the problems and, uh, does a zero expansion of the

01:11:24   market or something. I agree with you on the market expansion, but I feel like this strap with the top

01:11:28   thing maybe solves one of the 10,000 problems in the first one.

01:11:32   Wow. Excuse me, sir. It's 3,500 problems. Uh, no, but, uh, no, to be clear, we're talking about,

01:11:40   uh, we we're talking about the dual knit band, which basically imagine the like, um, crank to expand or

01:11:48   contract band that goes behind your head. We'll stick another one of those on top of your head. And I think

01:11:53   Federico originally found an Etsy person that 3d printed a, some sort of housing for lack of a better

01:12:00   word or adapter mount thing where you could get one or a, a, a second solo knit band. So the second

01:12:08   thing that goes behind your head and plug a hundred more dollars for a hundred more dollars and plug it

01:12:13   into this thing. And so you have this $200 plus 50 bucks for the trinket or whatever to mount it on.

01:12:18   You have this like $250 Rube Goldberg mount, but allegedly it was incredibly comfortable.

01:12:23   Yes, I have that. And it is, it's way like once I discovered that and put in, yes, a hundred,

01:12:30   another hundred and the bracket was like 30 bucks, like a hundred, another 130 bucks, a hundred to

01:12:34   Apple 30 to the bracket. Um, it does dramatically improve the comfort, but again, like it fixes none

01:12:40   of the other problems. So like, okay, that, that helps. But I don't, if you look, if you ask people,

01:12:45   what's, you know, what are the top three reasons you're not buying this? I don't know the comfort

01:12:50   would have made the list for most people. I think there, it has larger challenges.

01:12:53   That's not why they're not buying it. That's a complaint of people who have bought it.

01:12:56   Yes.

01:12:57   Yeah, that's fair.

01:12:58   But again, but it's like, okay, well, suppose you fix the comfort. Now you have, you know,

01:13:01   battery life, isolation and the lack of content to deal with. So like, it's, even if you saw,

01:13:06   even if you ignore the price, which you shouldn't, uh, but even if you do again, this is,

01:13:11   they're, they're keeping it alive. And I, I think what they're, they're obviously like,

01:13:17   they're, they're doing like the, the new, um, live sports thing that they're attempting

01:13:21   to get off the ground. The, the black magic cameras are finally kind of getting out there

01:13:25   in the world. You know, they're, they're trickling out. So I think what they're doing

01:13:28   is the, they're seeing that like the, the foundations for the content ecosystem are very slowly being

01:13:37   laid. They're very slowly growing over time. There might be a decent amount of immersive video

01:13:44   content being produced and being available for it. That time has not yet come, but it is very

01:13:50   slowly. It's like, you know, like starting a car in fifth gear, like you're very slowly creeping and

01:13:56   like getting a little bit faster, a little bit, but there is such a long way to go. And so I think

01:14:01   this is them buying time. This is them saying, look, half the company already, like when the vision pro

01:14:07   launched, half the company didn't support it. Like the Apple's own apps are barely available

01:14:14   for it. Most of them are still iPad apps. Apple has put in not that much work, but they put in a

01:14:19   little bit and they don't want this whole segment of the, of their product line to die. They don't

01:14:24   want all this work to be for nothing. Tim Cook, as we know, is obsessed with AR and sees this as a path

01:14:31   to get there, even though I don't think it is. I think those are separate things with separate

01:14:34   needs. Anyway, we'll, another time. So the, you know, there are some people who believe heavily

01:14:41   in this, but also it sells nothing. So it is not worth a whole bunch of investment from the company

01:14:48   in both, you know, hardware engineering or in software support, honestly.

01:14:53   And so that's what we're seeing. We're seeing Apple is very slowly kind of trickling things out for it

01:15:00   and waiting for that content ecosystem to eventually develop. They're, I don't think doing a whole lot

01:15:06   to help it. They're certainly not doing as much as they could to help it, but they're, they're waiting

01:15:10   for that to develop and they really believe it will. So in the meantime, they're like, we just have to keep

01:15:15   this product going because without this product, it will not develop. So we're going to keep this

01:15:21   product existing, but it's mostly going to be bought by people who were in the business of making

01:15:27   content for it, not watching content on it and not using apps for it and everything else. And we'll

01:15:32   see, you know, over time, if they, if it ever becomes worth launching another one again, I wouldn't

01:15:39   consider that a guarantee. This could be the last Apple vision product that's ever made. We don't know

01:15:44   yet. Um, and I don't know if they know yet to be honest. Um, but what they did was keep this product the same

01:15:53   and just, you know, hit refresh and, and just update the year 2025 and we'll, we'll see whatever happens. I don't

01:16:05   think we're going to hear any more about it after this hardware update than we have been hearing about it. I think it's

01:16:11   going to continue to be this kind of baseline level product that is occasionally the butt of jokes, but

01:16:18   the most people just don't think about it all most of the time. Um, and it will very, very slowly

01:16:23   accumulate more content and maybe someday that will be enough. I still don't think they're doing enough

01:16:29   to help, to help and support that. But Hey, here it is. Here's another one. That's the same as the first

01:16:35   one. I think the most important role this product has is to stop people from buying the M two based

01:16:40   one. Because even if like, if you were going to continue, I don't think that was really, you know,

01:16:44   they're not like holding the door back on that one. I know, but like every, like over as the years

01:16:48   progress, every one of those M two one that gets out there just make, like, as you pointed out,

01:16:53   just kind of makes it harder for the ecosystem to ever take off because people are buying just ancient

01:16:57   hardware and you're like, Oh, if I, if only I could do this thing, you have to start, even though

01:17:01   like the ecosystem doesn't warrant it really, you do have to get some, you start to have to get some

01:17:06   hardware turnover in there. Even if it's only like people break their old one. And when they go to

01:17:09   buy a new one, like they shouldn't buy an M two, like it shouldn't be 2030 and they're buying an M two

01:17:14   based product, right. For $3,500. Right. So that's what I feel like is important. If obviously they've

01:17:19   continued, they're deciding they're going to continue this product line, right? That's the decision

01:17:23   they've made. You have to put out something that doesn't have an M two in it because I mean,

01:17:26   when this came out, the M two was already not the latest shipper was on the verge of not being

01:17:31   the latest ship. Right. Yeah. It was, I think it had already been replaced in like the MacBook air

01:17:35   or something and then, but not everything else yet. Yeah. Anyway, it's important to just keep that

01:17:39   turnover and it is nice. You get a couple of little boosts and like to show like when you have an M five

01:17:43   in there, it's like, Oh, we can do some fairly minor tweaks to the software that actually like now that

01:17:47   we have an M five, we can do 120 Hertz. Maybe the minimum frame rate will be higher. Maybe we,

01:17:51   you know, it takes less time to do those persona things. So stuff that was clunky before, Oh, and we get a free

01:17:56   half an hour battery life and a thing that has crappy battery life. So now it's slightly less

01:18:00   crappy, right? You know, it's, it's fine. And as for the band thing, like I'm, I'd have never tried

01:18:07   this band like this marker. You said the Etsy one that you got is comfortable. It's great. Looking,

01:18:11   looking at this, I do wonder like how much of an improvement it's going to be because the thing

01:18:17   didn't get any lighter and it just has one dial. Like obviously when you have the two of them,

01:18:21   you have two dials cause you have two complete solo things. This, I think it just has one dial.

01:18:25   Like I said, just one dial that tightens both. Yeah. So we don't actually know like, you know,

01:18:29   does it, does a top one, is a top one fixed? Does it tighten both at the same time? Does it tighten

01:18:34   them at different ratios? You know, who knows? Maybe the right side does top and the left side

01:18:38   does back. I don't know. They did say though, that you don't have to actually buy the new vision

01:18:42   pro to get this. This strap will be sold separately and it works on the first one too.

01:18:45   Yeah. And it's 99 bucks. So it's half the price of buying two solo knit bands and an Etsy thing.

01:18:51   Yeah. But I mean the Etsy thing with the two knit bands, as compared to the original solo band,

01:18:58   it's, you know, it's totally different way of supporting it because it uses the top of your

01:19:03   head, not just the back. And as compared to like the Apple top and back Velcro strap thing they made,

01:19:10   it's way cushier and way more supportive and way easier to adjust quickly. So it's great. Like,

01:19:16   you know, before I had the dual solo knit thing for mine, whenever I would be like showing it off to

01:19:22   people, I would, I would swap on the solo knit because it was easier to adjust quickly. This,

01:19:27   you know, you don't want to like be doing with the, you know, the Velcro big strap on with somebody

01:19:31   like, Oh, you pinch their hair, hold on, undo it. Like it's very inelegant when you're trying to show

01:19:35   the vision pro to somebody else, which was the main activity you did when you first bought a vision pro.

01:19:39   But then the, you know, when I was, as soon as I got this, you know, my hack to do the dual strap,

01:19:45   I kept that on forever after that and never changed it out. And, and it was far better for both my own

01:19:51   use and for showing it to other people and passing it around to other people. So I think this band's

01:19:56   going to be a big hit, but it's a big hit to a very, very small market. So great. Look, it's like

01:20:04   the Mac pro getting new wheels. Someone's going to use this, not a ton of people, but for the people

01:20:11   who do use it, it helps. And that's, that's this band. If you are a regular vision pro user and you

01:20:17   are not yet using one of the, you know, Etsy dual solo band hacks, I would strongly recommend checking

01:20:23   out this band.

01:20:24   Yeah. I mean, I'm excited to, at some point, give it a shot some way, somehow. Um, I am using

01:20:30   the Belkin strap that, that you, it's, you use the, the fancy Apple one in the back and then there's

01:20:36   like this Velcro thing in the top and that's pretty good. But the problem with that is, is that you can't

01:20:41   use the developer strap with it for complicated reasons or verbally complicated reasons to describe.

01:20:46   And although I don't use the developer strap that often, there have been occasions where I've wanted

01:20:49   to use it because I'm doing vision pro development or because I'm doing, um, uh, the Mac virtual display

01:20:55   in a environment that does not have stellar wifi. Uh, in this, from what I can tell should work with the

01:21:01   developer strap, which is also a big improvement. Uh, additionally, one last or a couple of more

01:21:05   accessories. Uh, Apple will start selling the PlayStation VR two cents controller on November 11th for 250

01:21:10   bucks. And additionally, the Logitech Muse spatial stylus, which is basically you can draw in thin

01:21:16   air, uh, so to speak, that's $130. And I believe that's available now. Uh, yes, it looks like it is

01:21:22   cool. So we do have a additional bit of somewhat breaking news from a couple of days ago. Um, Apple

01:21:30   announced that F one, the movie is making its streaming debut on December 12th. And let me do a quick

01:21:36   aside. I know we already talked about the F one movie. Uh, I watched it again recently and

01:21:40   I got to tell you, it is a deeply unserious movie from the perspective of an F one fan,

01:21:46   but it's also super fun. So I definitely recommend once it lands and, uh, Apple TV plus, uh, which

01:21:52   we're about to talk about, uh, once it lands an Apple TV plus, then, uh, you should give it a shot.

01:21:55   I think it's, there are much worse ways to spend a couple hours of your time. Anyways, uh, reading

01:21:59   from Mac rumors buried in, buried in its announcement about F one, the movie making its streaming debut

01:22:03   on December 12th. Apple has also announced that Apple TV plus is now being rebranded as simply

01:22:08   Apple TV. A single line near the end of the press release states, quote, Apple TV is, excuse me,

01:22:13   Apple TV plus is now simply Apple TV with a vibrant new identity. Apple's blurb about the streaming

01:22:18   service at the bottom of the press release also reflects the updated naming quote, Apple TV is

01:22:22   available on the Apple TV app in over 100 countries and regions on over 1 billion screens, including

01:22:28   iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple vision, pro Mac, and popular smart TVs. This, uh, of course,

01:22:34   everyone made the same joke concurrently. You can watch Apple TV on your Apple TV using

01:22:39   the Apple TV app. Um, so you can do Apple TV on Apple TV on Apple TV, um, which is hilarious.

01:22:45   But the more I thought about it, my first reaction was, are you kidding me? But the more I thought

01:22:49   about it, the more I think, honestly, this is probably for the best.

01:22:52   It makes sense that the TV service named Apple TV would be in an app named Apple TV. That's

01:22:59   how streaming services work. HBO is available in an app called HBO. You know, Netflix is

01:23:05   available in an app called Netflix. Like, so that part makes sense. I think it is only the

01:23:10   long time existence of the Apple TV box that makes it especially weird.

01:23:15   But no, what about the TV app? The Netflix app just shows you Netflix, but the Apple TV app doesn't

01:23:23   just show you Apple. That's true. Yeah. I guess that part is, it is like the, it is the, the,

01:23:28   the button on the remote by default takes you there. It is like the hub of their TV watching experience

01:23:34   that other things plug into. So already, even before you consider the hardware box, there's still

01:23:39   some confusion. Also, by the way, that Apple TV app is just called TV. Like in the icon, like it

01:23:46   doesn't, it has the Apple logo. So it's an Apple logo TV, but like we referred to it as the Apple

01:23:52   TV app, but we also say the TV app a lot of the time. Right. And anyway, before we get to the hardware,

01:23:58   just talking about the Apple TV plus name, uh, as we'll see, but Eddie Q is going to read some quotes

01:24:04   from him from a podcast pretty soon talking about the renaming and people saying, well, it makes

01:24:08   sense, blah, blah, blah. That's what people called that anyway. Here's the problem. I think at least

01:24:12   half the people that I know that regularly miss miss name, the Apple TV plus service, call it drum

01:24:17   roll, please. Oh yeah. Okay. Fair. No, that's fair. You're right. And I, you know, I don't blame them.

01:24:24   I don't blame people for getting it wrong. It's confusing. Some people call it Apple TV. Some people

01:24:27   call it Apple plus, uh, as of yesterday or whenever, neither of those was right. They've only helped

01:24:33   half of those people. Yeah. I have never heard a non-Apple nerd correctly name the Apple TV plus

01:24:42   service ever. They, they've said everything. And I mean, granted a lot of times this doesn't matter.

01:24:47   Like, you know, I've, I've also very rarely heard anybody say Apple watch. Everyone says I watch

01:24:53   still. Really? I don't hear that. Oh my God. I hear I watch so much from regular people.

01:24:58   I do think it makes sense overall to call it Apple TV. However, I do have a terrible idea.

01:25:06   This is what I was teasing earlier. It's not a very good idea. It's a terrible idea.

01:25:10   Is it? Can I, can I've heard a terrible idea on the internet? Can I, should I say my terrible

01:25:15   idea if I heard on the internet first or do you want me to wait until after?

01:25:17   In case it's the same, I want to, I want to still think I came up with this.

01:25:21   Okay. Go ahead. All right. Apple TV is the service. The app also makes sense because it's

01:25:29   Apple TV for the most part. But what has more things than the Apple TV and Apple TV app?

01:25:38   The box. So I think they should rename the box Apple TV plus.

01:25:47   That's a terrible idea. That is worse than the idea that I was thinking of. Congratulations.

01:25:50   That is a truly terrible idea. My word.

01:25:53   Because that makes sense. The box is the Apple TV app plus a bunch of other stuff.

01:25:58   Well, so is the app though, unfortunately, as previously noted, the Apple TV app is also

01:26:03   Apple TV plus other stuff.

01:26:04   It's not an amazing concept.

01:26:05   So that, so the app should be, everything should be called plus except for the service.

01:26:09   Because, okay, look, and the app, right now the box, you know, they had like Apple TV HD

01:26:13   and 4K, but you know, it's 2025. Next time they update the box, just calling it Apple TV 4K is

01:26:19   a little bit, you know, that's like, that's like gateway 2000 still being called gateway 2000

01:26:23   in 2005, which it wasn't for that reason. Um, so like they, they should rename the box from

01:26:30   Apple TV 4K to something else. Apple TV plus. There it is. It's sitting right now. It's unused.

01:26:36   Do you want to, do you want to hear the, the, uh, the idea that I was thinking of that is

01:26:39   not as bad as yours, but it's still terrible. I would like to hear it. You've I'm sure you

01:26:44   both already have people saying that it should be named HomePod something. Oh yeah. The hardware

01:26:49   box, the hardware box should be called like HomePod TV or like to basically latch onto the HomePod

01:26:53   video hardware. Yeah. Cause like whatever, cause cause the hardware things they put in your

01:26:58   house that like don't have screens and stuff are HomePods. And why is this one not called

01:27:02   the HomePod? And I think it's a terrible idea because a HomePods have a bad reputation

01:27:05   and B it's not a HomePod, I guess. I don't know. Like they could do whatever they want

01:27:10   with the names of their product, but it doesn't make much sense to it. But no, Apple TV plus

01:27:12   is worse. Congratulations. I was thinking, I mean, another name they might give it is

01:27:17   Apple home. Maybe like the next box could be Apple. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, they don't

01:27:22   want to give up all that brand equity of the HomePod, right? Which everyone knows and loves.

01:27:27   Apple TV max. Oh no. I think HBO might have a problem with that. Yeah. That was the jokes

01:27:32   about, uh, about the device being named renamed with max and or, or pro so far. Apple TV plus

01:27:38   is not as bad as these other ideas that I'm hearing. No plus Apple TV plus is worse. So read

01:27:44   from Eddie's interview. I think he explains why. All right. So Eddie Q is on the town podcast,

01:27:48   uh, and at around five and a half minutes or thereabouts, Matt Bologna, who's the host says,

01:27:53   how many management consultants did it take to tell you to drop the plus from Apple TV plus,

01:27:57   which credit to Matt Bologna, cause that's a very good assumption. However, Eddie said zero. Matt

01:28:04   said, you just decided. Eddie said, I just decided. We just decided, look, we put the plus in there

01:28:08   because we've used it in our other services like iCloud plus news plus, but we do that when we have

01:28:13   a free service and then there's a paid version. We stayed consistent because of it, but we all called

01:28:17   it Apple TV and we said, given where we are today, it's a great time to do it. So let's just do it.

01:28:22   Matt then replies. I remember when you announced it, Disney was annoyed. Remember because they had,

01:28:26   they had Disney plus coming and he says, I do. Matt says now, I guess maybe they'll be happier.

01:28:31   Maybe when you own them someday, you can bring it back. You now have this potential confusion though,

01:28:36   with other, with other hardware to which Eddie replies, our hardware is called Apple TV 4k,

01:28:41   uh, for your TV. I think that's fine. And the app is called Apple TV. It's been called Apple TV

01:28:46   on our third party products as well. So I don't think that'll be a problem at all. Yeah. So this is the

01:28:50   pitch for the plus. I don't remember the history of plus, like who did it first or whatever. At least

01:28:55   the timeline in this interview is explaining that Disney plus was coming, but there was a trend of

01:29:00   putting a plus symbol at the end of some brand name to say, this is a streaming service that you pay for

01:29:08   or whatever. And you have things like Peacock that didn't do that, but the plus stuck on the end was

01:29:12   common. Apple had its own iCloud plus news plus. Again, I don't remember who was first, but I think

01:29:17   Apple was pretty early in the sticking plus on the end of things to say, it's a thing that you pay

01:29:20   for. Apple TV math. Yeah. So with, with the plus symbol on things that you pay for, Eddie's logic

01:29:27   is, uh, say, well, we have this consistency, but it wasn't actually that consistent because like we

01:29:32   only put plus on things that you used to get for free. Now I know iCloud, there was a free version

01:29:37   and then iCloud plus was a pay because you get some measly amount of storage for free, blah, blah,

01:29:40   blah. And you get a plus and you pay. That's true. Was there a free version of news? Is there a free

01:29:45   version of news? I don't think so. Uh, no, I think there is. I think you just, you don't have access

01:29:50   to as much stuff. Yeah, maybe. Um, but anyway, with the Apple TV plus, he's like, well, there was never a

01:29:56   free version of that. So when Apple comes out with the not inevitable, but many people think is

01:30:01   inevitable ad supported free version of Apple TV. Do they put the plus back on then? So, so that's,

01:30:06   that's a, I did see that, that theory floated that this is just like preparing for a future day where

01:30:11   there's a paid version that they call Apple TV plus again. And then, you know, it just seems to be a

01:30:17   nightmare for them to put the plus back on. Honestly, I don't necessarily, I mean, so on one hand, if you

01:30:23   look around the streaming service business, every other streaming service has realized that you can make

01:30:27   more total money having a free tier with ads than only having a paid service. But I don't necessarily

01:30:34   think it's a given that Apple will go that way. Yeah. If anyone's going to hold off from it, it would

01:30:38   be Apple. Yeah. Number one, like Apple is really good at making people pay for stuff. And, and so,

01:30:43   and they have higher end customers who are more willing to pay for stuff. And they're really bad at

01:30:47   selling ads. That's yeah. Number two, they suck at selling ads. Like anything Apple does that is ad

01:30:54   supported, including news plus to some of you like it's, it's really half butted.

01:30:59   Yeah. And, and to, to actually sell the inventory of a popular free streaming service, you need a

01:31:08   pretty good ad sales business. That's not something that you can just like, you know, quickly outsource

01:31:13   or quickly whip something together. Like that's a lot of inventory of reasonably well-paying ads to,

01:31:18   to, to sell that they would need a substantial sales arm. Like if you look, look at like, you know,

01:31:22   what the business people all said, like when Netflix was investing in their ad tier, it was a

01:31:28   big operation to get that going. It takes a lot of, you know, hiring and build out and, you know,

01:31:34   talent and relationship building to be able to sell that many ads. I don't think Apple has it in them,

01:31:39   to be honest. Like that's so outside of their usual comfort zone and abilities. I don't necessarily

01:31:45   think they're going to go that way.

01:31:46   it's outside their technology and that they don't collect all the data that advertisers would

01:31:51   want to precisely target ads because Apple literally doesn't collect that stuff or collects

01:31:55   it in a way that they...

01:31:57   Well, when it comes to Apple selling their own ads, they're happy to do that. They, they,

01:32:01   they throw all that out the window.

01:32:02   Yeah. But, but like, but selling, selling it out to third parties, yeah.

01:32:05   Yeah. No, I mean, look, Apple will, Apple would not shy away from using all of your personal

01:32:10   information to target ads to you. Um, they would absolutely do that if they, if they were

01:32:14   going all in. But I think, I think they would shy away from that. Like in terms of like what

01:32:17   the other companies do, which is like detecting what you're viewing by reading the screen,

01:32:21   like the Vizio TVs or whatever that company was doing. Like it's so commonplace now that

01:32:25   like not only through every app and every thing that goes through Apple software, but also even

01:32:29   when you're not going through Apple software, because you're using the Apple TV streaming

01:32:33   app or whatever, we can detect what's on your screen and figure out what it is and do all

01:32:37   this like super creepy stuff that Apple just doesn't do. And I don't think would do.

01:32:42   And it makes them less able to sell ads because they don't have as granular and invasive data

01:32:46   to sell against.

01:32:47   Uh, they, I mean, they have good data. I mean, you know, look at app store ads,

01:32:50   app store search ads. It's probably, if I had to guess, that might be Apple's largest ad platform.

01:32:56   Um, and it's, you know, they, they do a lot of volume because you have to, um, it's not a very

01:33:04   good system. It's not very advanced. They, they have not put a ton of effort into it. Um, and it is

01:33:09   not nearly as targeted as, you know, something like buying Facebook ads, but there's no prescription

01:33:13   drug ads in the app store search ads. Yeah. Well, there's a lot, there's a lot of crap in

01:33:18   there though. I know it's not, it's not like news plus with boner pills or whatever. It's

01:33:22   just like, but you know, but, but I do think like when Apple, if you look at search ads,

01:33:27   like they, they do use your data to, to try to influence those, to try to rank them. Like

01:33:32   they, and you know, they ask you sometimes occasionally in a weird way. Um, but they do

01:33:36   use it. Like they are happy to use first party data about what apps you search for, what apps

01:33:41   you use. Um, you know, and if it came to it, if they actually decided to do a large ad play

01:33:47   in TV, they would be happy to do the same thing. They don't need to, you know, read your screen

01:33:54   to know what you're watching. They know what you're watching already because it's their apps

01:33:57   playing. To give another example, would they go, would they go through everything,

01:34:00   every purchase you made with your Apple card? I don't think only, I don't think so only

01:34:05   because I don't think they would be able to get their technical act together and actually

01:34:08   do that. It's a question of whether it's technical competence or a refusals to gather data, but

01:34:13   like the granularity of data that other companies are willing to gather from all sources they

01:34:16   can possibly get to target ads precisely. Like someone who just looked at a webpage that

01:34:21   had this thing on it and has this history of buying things at Amazon and has this credit

01:34:25   score. And just like, they'll go much farther than Apple can as your, to your point with

01:34:30   technically capability, but I think they'll also go farther than Apple will. But anyway,

01:34:33   we'll see if they ever make an ad free version of this. But if I had to make a pitch for why,

01:34:37   if I had to, if I was at EQ in this interview and said, uh, explain to me why the heck you

01:34:41   did this renaming thing, here's what would have been my pitch. Apple TV, the streaming service

01:34:47   is the thing with the most sort of brand value in this stew of stuff. Apple TV shows and movies like

01:34:58   movies win Oscars, the shows win Emmys. If there's anything that the public has any consciousness of

01:35:03   any of Apple's TV crap, it's because of like Ted Lasso or, you know, like the, it's the streaming

01:35:10   service and the content made for it has the widest awareness in the people in the world.

01:35:16   They don't have to be Apple fans. They don't have to have any Apple hardware or any Apple

01:35:20   software. It's just, they bought a TV. It came with an app and had an Apple logo on it. Someone

01:35:23   said, watch Ted Lasso. You said, what's that? They go to the Apple thing. They went to the Apple

01:35:27   thing. They watched Ted Lasso, right? That is your sort of brand crown jewel. So give that one the name

01:35:33   that is closest to what people are saying. Some people are saying, we used to say Apple plus

01:35:38   because you're stupid past naming bad decisions, but other people said Apple TV. Maybe it's the

01:35:43   majority of the people. So we're going to call it Apple TV. The hardware effectively, nobody buys

01:35:50   that like compared to the number of people who watch Ted Lasso versus the number of people who buy

01:35:54   Apple TV pucks. So few people buy it. It doesn't matter what it's called, but calling the hardware

01:36:00   Apple TV is essentially the same as your streaming service. It's fine because it's like, oh, if you're

01:36:07   buying this, you probably know what Apple TV is like the streaming service. And this is the hardware

01:36:13   thing. There's a soft, there's a streaming service called Apple TV. And this is like, it's like a Netflix

01:36:17   box. You know, you could buy a Netflix box and watch Netflix on it. Why would you do that? It comes with

01:36:21   my TV. Exactly. So nobody buys these things, but calling the hardware Apple TV, I think also makes sense,

01:36:26   especially where will Apple does not actually make a television set, which would be

01:36:30   confuse things further. And I know there's rumors all these years ago, and that's what the HomePod

01:36:34   project came out of, but right now they don't make one. So calling the hardware thing, Apple TV is also

01:36:39   fine. Then you have the app. And honestly, I don't know how many people outside tech circles who would

01:36:44   ever call that app Apple TV. They may call it the Apple TV app, or they may say just go to TV, or they

01:36:53   may say go to Apple TV, but no one knows or cares what the names of those apps are because they're just

01:36:56   icons on your screen. And so who cares what that one's called? Honestly, I don't know if it actually

01:37:01   is called Apple TV. I know the icon is an Apple logo and the lowercase letters TV under the covers.

01:37:07   What is that app called? Who the hell knows? Who cares? Like it's nothing that comes up in the

01:37:10   interface. Right. And so I think actually that that's, that's why this renaming is fine. We gave

01:37:16   the simple name to the thing that everybody knows. The hardware doesn't matter, but it makes sense for it

01:37:20   to match the simple name that everybody knows. And nobody cares, knows or cares what the app is called.

01:37:24   So done and done. And it's mostly just a curiosity to tech nerds. And hopefully they'll never need to

01:37:30   do this again. Don't bring back the plus. Don't go HBO Max, Max, like just, just let it, let it fly.

01:37:38   Apple TV. And, you know, I'm not saying they should get rid of the TV box. I like it. And I hope they

01:37:42   never stop making it because the other boxes out there are worse, but just keep making it for the few

01:37:47   people who like it. And everyone else will just buy a TV and find the icon that looks like this picture

01:37:52   here and click on it and watch Apple TV, which is the only thing they know about

01:37:55   sorted. Uh, and then with regard to the vibrant new identity, apparently there's, what did they say?

01:38:02   And I think it was upgrade. There's some smeared, uh, gradients on there and we'll put a link to six

01:38:07   colors where there's a photo of the new icon. That's all we've seen as we record this. Presumably

01:38:12   there'll be more in the future. Yeah. Like it's, it's still a black rectangle with a white Apple logo

01:38:18   and the white letter, lowercase letters TV, but now the white Apple logo and the white

01:38:22   lowercase letters TV have some Siri looking kind of rainbowy tinge to them, which I mean, fine.

01:38:31   It looks nice. I don't know what it says representing was the previous one only black and white. And now

01:38:34   they have color video. Like, Oh wow. I don't know. It's all right. Now in technicolor.

01:38:41   Yeah. Yeah. Maybe someday Apple's uh, political activities will line up with their rainbow

01:38:45   branding. Ooh, sick burn. All right. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Sentry and Grammarly. And

01:38:52   thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the many

01:38:57   perks of membership is ATP overtime, our weekly bonus topic this week on overtime. We're going to be

01:39:03   talking about Alexa plus and how it is, uh, you know, finally hitting the real world and what people

01:39:08   think about it and how it works. So, uh, you can join to listen, atp.fm slash join. Thank you so much to

01:39:14   everybody. And we'll talk to you next week.

01:39:16   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental.

01:39:26   Accidental. Oh, it was accidental. Accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:39:35   because it was accidental. Accidental. It was accidental. Accidental. And you can find the show

01:39:42   notes at atp.fm. And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's

01:39:55   Casey Liss. M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T. Marco Arment. S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-S-Y-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A. It's accidental. Accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental. Accidental. Tech podcast. So long.

01:40:18   All right. So, John, you apparently have been on a quest. Tell me about this.

01:40:26   I have. Well, it's not much of a quest. It's just we thought we were all done with a phone setup when we said that we all got our new phones. We talked about them, all that stuff. And I noted that I was getting new phones for my children, but they're away at college.

01:40:38   So the new phones were just sitting on the desk. And so I hadn't set up their phones. And so I had a phone setup process waiting for me. You figure, haven't we already talked everything there is? Haven't we said everything there is to say about the setup process last time we talked about it? Apparently not. Because, I mean, or maybe it's just amnesia.

01:40:53   Because I know, as I noted, every time I have to set up a phone, which is I have to set up a phone every year. I only buy new phones for myself once every other year. But every year, someone's getting a new phone because my wife and I alternate years and the kids get phones occasionally or whatever. And I always just forget all of the, you know, the things that I should remember and the things that I should avoid or whatever.

01:41:12   Because it just doesn't happen enough to stick in my mind. And usually because I'm so angry about it because I have to end up getting an iPhone day and I end up calling Verizon and it's just blah, blah, blah. Anyway, here's to remind myself maybe next year to not make these same mistakes. So first, when I'm setting up a phone for my kid, like first kid came home from school and setting up their phone.

01:41:32   And, you know, I tell them, you know, you'll be without your phone for about four hours, but you'll get it back. And it's not really going to be four hours, but you want to, you know, set expectations so they're not annoyed about it.

01:41:44   And they say, no, I don't have four hours. Now, fine. Just tell me when you can be without your phone for four hours. Give me your phone and I'll do the setup because never need the other phone there because I'm doing like device to device transfer.

01:41:53   See previous episodes about the different techniques.

01:41:57   When I'm doing this, there's usually a step where it's like, oh, do face ID set up.

01:42:01   And I believe you can skip it. You can say, oh, I don't want to do this now. I'll do it later.

01:42:05   But I don't want to skip it because I just want to get it over with and get it done and be able to hand off the phone to them.

01:42:11   And especially if I know where the kid is now, I can say, oh, here, just do the face ID thing.

01:42:15   And my kids know how to do the face ID thing. They're Apple kids. They've had Apple hardware before.

01:42:19   So I have to give the phone to them for them to do face ID.

01:42:23   And this year, I'm sure I've done this before and I did it again.

01:42:27   It's like going through the setup, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:42:29   Oh, face ID. Oh, I walk into the other room, give it to my daughter.

01:42:31   I say, hey, do the face ID thing. Guess what?

01:42:34   Now I walk too far away from the other phone because I left the other phone on the table.

01:42:39   And now I've gone too far away and the setup process aborts because it's like, nope, lost connection to the other phone,

01:42:45   which can never be regained because we don't have that technology because you walk two feet too far away from the other phone.

01:42:51   I'm like, okay, well, that sucks. I should have remembered that. I know that happens.

01:42:55   Just, all right, start the setup over.

01:42:57   Now I'm going through the setup. This time on the face ID setup, I go over there with both phones,

01:43:03   do the face ID, you know, making sure they're staying near each other. I come back.

01:43:06   Eventually, I get to the point where it's like, time to set up Siri.

01:43:08   And I'm like, haha, I'm not going to make the mistake again.

01:43:11   I'm going to get up and, you know, because it's like, I think it wants you to say stuff like,

01:43:15   hey, dingus, what's the weather or whatever.

01:43:17   And again, I think there's a skip, but I'm always like, is this going to, is this trying to remember my voice?

01:43:21   I don't want to do it because I don't want to remember my voice from my daughter's phone because our voices don't sound the same.

01:43:25   Right. So I bring the two phones over to my daughter and say, here, just do what it says on the screen.

01:43:29   Say, you know, what's the weather, blah, blah, blah. Right.

01:43:33   And I bring the other phone because I don't want the process to abort.

01:43:35   But when she's doing it, she says, hey, dingus, what's the weather?

01:43:39   The other phone is nearby and it answers and activates.

01:43:43   Oh, my God.

01:43:44   And she's going through the tutorial, but her other phone, her old phone is answering it.

01:43:50   And by answering it and going through that process, it aborts the setup because now it's too far into the Siri like thing or whatever.

01:43:57   And not only does it abort the setup process, now it requires erasing the new phone and starting completely over.

01:44:04   No choice.

01:44:05   It's like, sorry, setup has been aborted because essentially the old phone got out of that little screen where it shows that white card at the bottom.

01:44:11   It says, you know, finish on other phone or whatever.

01:44:13   You're like, God, don't touch it.

01:44:14   Don't touch anything on the old phone.

01:44:15   Siri came and was answering those queries and aborted the whole setup process.

01:44:20   And the only way forward was erase the new phone.

01:44:24   Start completely over again.

01:44:25   Erasing a phone takes a while, even though we hadn't done everything yet.

01:44:28   So that's that's two, two, two strikes and the third strike third time.

01:44:35   And now I know like, you know, I'm going to have to like muffle the other phone, but keep it nearby.

01:44:40   I think I skipped the Siri setup process, which is the smarter thing to do.

01:44:43   Anytime you can skip those.

01:44:44   That's what I'm learning.

01:44:45   I want to remind myself during the setup when you're doing a thing, skip everything until you get through all the hurdles and then do them.

01:44:52   Because if anything perturbs this process, you have to start over.

01:44:55   And then finally, during some later part of this process, since my kids have stuff on their phones from the days before they had Apple IDs, the days before there was an Apple family, they have purchases made under my Apple ID.

01:45:10   Because I we used to have all the quote unquote family purchases were made under my Apple ID in the days before there was the concept of an Apple family.

01:45:18   So during the setup, it will ask you, please sign in with this Apple ID to unlock the applications.

01:45:25   It knows that there are apps on there that were purchased through my Apple ID.

01:45:29   And so I have to log into my Apple ID on her phone.

01:45:32   I enter in my information and it says we sent a code to your trusted device.

01:45:37   And, you know, the thing that comes up that shows a little map that says, like, there's a login from this place on the map.

01:45:42   But do you want to allow it or whatever?

01:45:44   And I say, this is this is showing up on my phone right now or that's my trusted device is my actual phone.

01:45:50   So I'm logging in my daughter's phone.

01:45:52   It sent the code to my phone.

01:45:54   I hit allow on the little map thing.

01:45:56   And then it pops up the thing with the six digits that it wants you to type in on my daughter's phone.

01:46:01   And that six digit thing disappears instantly.

01:46:03   Oh, cool.

01:46:04   And it stays on screen long.

01:46:06   Oh, I've seen this.

01:46:08   Yeah, it stays on screen long enough that you're like, I did see the six numbers.

01:46:12   I can probably memorize in the time they come up.

01:46:16   And so you do send code again.

01:46:17   All right.

01:46:18   Ready?

01:46:18   Here's the map.

01:46:19   I'm going to hit the allow button.

01:46:20   Allow memorize memories.

01:46:22   Oh, no, I got five of them.

01:46:23   It's like this bug has been in Apple's platforms for, I don't know, five years, six years.

01:46:30   It's so maddening because if it didn't work at all, you'd be like, oh, I'll find some other things.

01:46:36   There's other things like to try another way.

01:46:37   Send me an SMS, blah, blah, blah.

01:46:39   Like you can eventually get through it, but it almost works.

01:46:42   And it stays on screen just long enough to make you think you can do it.

01:46:46   And this is my message to me for next year.

01:46:48   Don't try to memorize the six numbers.

01:46:50   Just immediately do, choose another way, send an SMS, type in a phone number, blah, blah, blah.

01:46:57   Yeah.

01:46:59   I'm not inexperienced at setting up iPhones.

01:47:02   I've set up a lot of iPhones.

01:47:04   And still, still, this is my experience.

01:47:06   And I had just set up my wife's phone like two weeks ago.

01:47:09   I'm still, I can't get through.

01:47:11   The good thing is I will say both of their phone numbers transferred successfully because it was an iPhone day.

01:47:17   Yay.

01:47:18   And also I deleted their like one global eSIM.

01:47:23   You know, I knew that those were going to screw it up.

01:47:25   So I remembered that part.

01:47:27   I deleted off any weird, you know, foreign country eSIMs.

01:47:30   And then because it was an iPhone day, I was like, it's going to happen.

01:47:33   It's literally the first time I've ever seen this happen on an iPhone.

01:47:36   This is the number transferred correctly on two phones.

01:47:40   So victory for me.

01:47:41   I've never, or I'm sure I've had an issue in the past, I'm sure.

01:47:44   But it's been years since I've had an issue doing the phone number transfer.

01:47:49   So I don't know what makes your account so special that you get to be the lucky winner.

01:47:53   It's not the account.

01:47:53   I think Verizon servers just suck.

01:47:55   Like, because, you know, everyone has AT&T has iPhone day as well.

01:47:58   Right.

01:47:59   But whatever their servers are in this area that answer these API calls for like whatever, you know, transfer the number from here to there, they just give up the ghost.

01:48:07   And I was already, because I remembered from our last episode, I was like, if this transfer fails, I remember I can supposedly I can go to the website and do this myself without calling them.

01:48:15   So I'm going to try that next.

01:48:16   But I didn't have to, because they just, it actually worked the way it's supposed to.

01:48:19   The number is just transferred.

01:48:20   One of these days, one of us, and maybe it'll be me, we should just try an iCloud restore.

01:48:27   And I know it used to be, this is why I don't do it.

01:48:29   I do it every time.

01:48:30   Oh, okay.

01:48:31   There you go.

01:48:31   So, and you, and it remembers like Wi-Fi passwords and stuff?

01:48:34   Yeah, anything in, anything in iCloud key chain, anything except your Slack login, basically.

01:48:40   Yeah, I think I, from that follow-up we had from the Apple camera person, I think he still said the device to device and, and, and finder backup are still higher fidelity than iCloud, but he didn't specify about what.

01:48:50   But most of the stuff is in iCloud backup at this point.

01:48:52   Yeah, I mean, maybe we should just do that.

01:48:54   And maybe it would be easier.

01:48:56   I don't know.

01:48:57   I should try it at some point, but I'll forget this by the time next year rolls around.

01:49:01   Well, I mean, just don't do it when you're away from home on a trip in a car.

01:49:04   All right, all right, all right.

01:49:04   You have a long way to go before you're optimizing at that level.