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170: Simone Giertz – State of the Workflow

 

00:00:00   Welcome back to State of the Workflow. My guest this time is Simone Yetch. Simone is an inventor who I first came across many years ago making truly wild projects on YouTube, and she has since gone on to create her own product studio, Yetch Studio. I really respect the work that Simone does and also how well she communicates what she makes and what she is interested in. On this episode, I wanted to follow Simone's journey for how one of her ideas becomes a physical thing.

00:00:28   I want to look at the systems and the processes that she has in place to go from an idea to reality. I really hope you enjoy this episode.

00:00:37   Simone, I want to get started by asking, what do you consider to be the most important device that you use to get your work done?

00:00:46   I mean, it's hard to compete with a computer, as boring as that is, but in terms of tools in my workshop, I would probably say my laser cutter for rapid prototyping.

00:00:57   I'm more interested in talking about your laser cutter than your computer.

00:01:00   Yeah, no, I figure it's such a boring answer where you're like, okay, but if I actually could only pick one thing, obviously it would be my computer.

00:01:06   But yeah, the laser cutter or the CNC is probably what I reach for the most.

00:01:12   Why a laser cutter? Like what makes that better than say like a 3D printer or something for people like me who don't really know exactly what you would do with it?

00:01:20   I mean, a 3D printer is great, but the end product that you're going to get, depending on your 3D printer, is still going to be plastic.

00:01:27   Sure.

00:01:27   And I don't like plastic things, but what's cool with the CNC and with the laser cutter is you can make things out of wood or even metal.

00:01:36   I mean, my process is very CAD based.

00:01:40   So I often will make CAD models of things or collaborate, especially for when we're doing product development.

00:01:46   I'll make CAD model of a project and then we'll use the laser cutter or the CNC to make physical prototypes of it.

00:01:54   I mean, a lot of people who build stuff have very different processes and will like start doing things with hand tools.

00:02:01   And for me, it's always like, no, I want to figure it out first before I start prototyping.

00:02:06   I imagine there's a speed with something like a laser cutter that would be beneficial.

00:02:11   Yeah, sure.

00:02:12   But I'm also an incredibly soul builder.

00:02:14   So I don't know if I can say that.

00:02:17   It's not going to hold you up.

00:02:18   It's fine.

00:02:18   I'm the real bottleneck.

00:02:20   So before we jump into the big topic of this episode, which is the deep dive on your workflow,

00:02:25   I would like for our listeners to get a little bit of a background about Yet Studio.

00:02:30   So this is a store that you set up and that you run.

00:02:34   Why did you want to do this?

00:02:36   What was the thing that made you decide you wanted to run your own store?

00:02:40   It's more than a store, which is why we changed it from being called Yet Store to Yet Studio,

00:02:46   because we design everything and we have a factory networks that we use.

00:02:50   And that was one of the things that I thought was really important.

00:02:53   I didn't want it to just be slapping logos on existing products or selling merch with my face on it.

00:03:00   Like I wanted us to actually make novel objects that don't exist in the world.

00:03:04   The reason I wanted to start a product business on the side of my YouTube channel,

00:03:10   there were a lot of different aspects that played into making that decision.

00:03:15   One of it was wanting to build a way out of doing a YouTube channel, you know, or like the influencer business.

00:03:23   I realized there's not really like a graceful way to quit.

00:03:27   And I was like, I don't want to do this until I'm 60.

00:03:30   What do I actually want to do?

00:03:31   And also having a body of work of like, I have had a lot of projects that I'm like,

00:03:37   oh, I think that this would really make sense as a product.

00:03:39   So I had kind of a starting catalog of potential products.

00:03:43   But then also, I mean, I was having really severe health problems in 2018.

00:03:48   And that really made me rethink the business structure of running an influencer business,

00:03:53   because everything hinges on you being well enough to do work.

00:03:57   And I don't want to live with that pressure, both from a health perspective, but also just from an emotional perspective.

00:04:04   Like, I don't want to have 30 employees and knowing that if I need to go on a mental health break, for example, then they might lose their jobs.

00:04:12   Like, that's just not conducive to a good life for me.

00:04:15   So I thought, you know what, let's start a product business.

00:04:18   That sounds like a great way to be happy.

00:04:21   But this is, I think, it's becoming evident to anybody who enjoys or pays attention to YouTube culture.

00:04:29   This is becoming more and more prevalent of like, what is the quote unquote real business that the YouTube has set up?

00:04:37   I mean, we're seeing it all over, big and small.

00:04:39   Like people creating some kind of thing, whether it is a branded goods for somebody else or something completely kind of created from the beginning.

00:04:48   And as you mentioned, what you're doing is not create a merch by any stretch.

00:04:52   Like these are real products made by people that know what they're doing and they're original, right?

00:04:57   And like, it's fun, but it's really hard.

00:04:58   It is. It is very hard.

00:05:00   And I mean, one of the reasons I really didn't want it to be merch is, I mean, one thing, I'm not really interested in making merch.

00:05:05   But also, I wanted it to be separate from me.

00:05:10   Like I wanted our customer base to not solely be fans of me because then I'm still just building this thing that depends on me and the like relationship you have with your audience.

00:05:23   With that said, I have reluctantly realized that the best marketing asset we have is still me.

00:05:30   Yeah.

00:05:30   Because initially I was like, I don't want to be on the website.

00:05:33   Like I can be on the about page.

00:05:35   And yet studio is supported by me, but it's not an extension of me.

00:05:39   But then we're like, no, we have a founder that can talk in a somewhat engaging way about the products.

00:05:46   And it's coming from a very personal place.

00:05:49   And that's one of the leg ups that we might have compared to other brands.

00:05:53   So it's like, why would we not tap into that?

00:05:55   And I'd be like, but I don't want to.

00:05:56   I wanted to like decommission my face.

00:05:59   That was the whole point.

00:06:00   It's less though, right?

00:06:02   Like when you're talking about the fear of like, what if I can't be around for a while?

00:06:05   Like you're not launching new products on a weekly basis like you might have needed to do with influencer content.

00:06:11   So I totally understand what you mean.

00:06:12   Like you end up back in that same spot, but it is a different spot.

00:06:15   No, it definitely is.

00:06:17   But yeah, it's been a funny realization where I was like, this was exactly what I wanted to get out of.

00:06:21   But if that's the price I pay to get to make products and like run a design studio, then I'm happy to pay it.

00:06:29   So I want to take a look at start to finish how a Yet Studio product becomes to be.

00:06:35   And I think a great example of this would be the Coat Hinger because it touches on everything, even from like going to Kickstarter and stuff like that, which I know not all of your products would do.

00:06:45   So I feel like this will probably tell its entire life cycle.

00:06:49   In general, though, where do your ideas come from?

00:06:53   And obviously you are a very creative person.

00:06:55   You have ideas for all kinds of things.

00:06:57   A lot of these ideas are quote unquote for a bad robots.

00:07:01   But also you obviously have ideas for good products.

00:07:05   Where do these ideas tend to come from for you?

00:07:07   I mean, the funny thing is that the robots and the products kind of come from the same starting problem of finding little inconveniences in my everyday life and being like, how can I do this in a different way?

00:07:23   And for robots, it was like, what's the most ridiculous way I can solve this problem?

00:07:26   And then for Yet Studio and for my YouTube channel now, it's more like, how can I solve this differently or in a way that I haven't seen before?

00:07:35   But I mean, for me, a lot of it, honestly, it's just looking at the objects in my house and being like, what do I wish that this object could do that it's not currently doing?

00:07:46   And kind of trying to add functionality to everyday objects without taking away from their like core function.

00:07:54   So I think a really good example of that is my laundry chair.

00:07:59   So I would always have half dirty clothes thrown on a chair in my bedroom.

00:08:06   Who doesn't?

00:08:06   And it's like the clothes that are, they're supposed to be there because I could wear this T-shirt another time.

00:08:12   I should not fold these pants and put them back into the drawer because then they'll start getting stinky or whatever.

00:08:18   Like, but they're not dirty enough to go in the hamper.

00:08:21   But it looks really messy to have them just thrown on a chair.

00:08:24   And I really like the idea of like, instead of designing for the perfect day where you have no clothes on your chair, like design for the normal day.

00:08:36   And instead of trying harder, just be like, oh, can I actually incorporate this into a piece of furniture design and make it not look messy?

00:08:44   So I made this chair that basically has like a lazy Susan rail that you can pull forward, hang those clothes on and then kind of tuck it behind it.

00:08:53   So that's just like looking at an eyesore in my bedroom and being like, oh, is there a way I can do this differently?

00:09:01   And I mean, I just started thinking I need a bread box.

00:09:04   And then I'm like, okay, should I build a bread box?

00:09:08   Like, that's a pretty boring project.

00:09:09   I could just make a bread box.

00:09:11   But like, could I make it do something differently or something extra?

00:09:16   And they're like bread boxes that have like little cutting stations attached to them.

00:09:20   Okay.

00:09:20   But then like, what else?

00:09:21   Does it also like put butter on your bread?

00:09:24   Does it also do this other thing?

00:09:26   Is it also a toaster?

00:09:28   Oh, honestly, not a bad idea.

00:09:30   There you go.

00:09:31   It could be incorporated like all in one.

00:09:34   So it's like, basically, you push the bread out, you cut it, you have like a little built in knife, and then it just takes it to a toaster.

00:09:42   That doesn't sound like a fire hazard at all.

00:09:45   So when you have these ideas, where do you store them?

00:09:49   Where do you keep them?

00:09:50   I have a long list on my phone.

00:09:52   Okay.

00:09:52   So they go in like the notes app or something?

00:09:54   I just have a to do list called ideas.

00:09:57   It has 127 entries on it.

00:10:00   Let me scroll down to the lowest one and see how long it's been there.

00:10:05   2020.

00:10:06   So not that long.

00:10:07   Okay.

00:10:07   It's the oldest one.

00:10:08   How long would you allow an idea to kick around for?

00:10:11   Will it stay there forever if you're going to come back to it?

00:10:13   Or is there a point where you're like, I'm never going to do this?

00:10:15   No, I let it stay.

00:10:17   I keep them on there.

00:10:18   And sometimes I'll be like, ah, that's kind of a mediocre idea or concept.

00:10:22   And I'll put it on the list.

00:10:24   And then two years later, I'm like, oh, actually, that's great.

00:10:28   What does that tend to be?

00:10:29   Like if you've got an idea on the list, or even if it's like a new idea that you have,

00:10:33   what is the thing that will be like, okay, I'm going to progress this to be a product?

00:10:38   So we can look at Coat Hinger.

00:10:39   Like what about that idea where you were like, not only am I going to make this, I'm going to

00:10:44   make it for people to buy it.

00:10:46   Like what is the thing in those ideas that makes you feel like, yes, this is a product?

00:10:50   I mean, so for those of you listening who don't know what the Coat Hinger is, it's a

00:10:55   Coat Hinger that folds in half.

00:10:57   So you can put your clothes on it and then fold it in half so that it hangs half of the

00:11:01   distance from the wall.

00:11:02   So if you have like a really shallow wardrobe or a narrow hallway where you can't fit a

00:11:07   Coat Rack, this kind of you trade depth for width.

00:11:12   That one was a little bit different because as soon as I had the idea, I saw the product

00:11:18   potential and we didn't make any content about it until we released it because I was also like,

00:11:25   I feel like this is a really powerful idea.

00:11:28   And I'm worried that if I put it out in the world, somebody is going to beat me to it.

00:11:31   But that happens very rarely.

00:11:34   And I like wanted to make sure I got a patent on it before releasing it.

00:11:39   But usually the way it happens is that I make a YouTube video, but then we also see the reception

00:11:45   of the project and the YouTube project.

00:11:48   And like, are people interested in this as a product?

00:11:53   And then we'll put it in our design for manufacturing pipeline.

00:11:56   But for the Coat Hinder, you know, it was something that felt achievable to make.

00:12:04   Granted, it was a lot more complicated than I thought it would be.

00:12:06   But yeah, I just thought it was one of those things where I was like, oh, I love these.

00:12:12   It's really solving a problem for me.

00:12:14   And I think it could solve problems for other people, too.

00:12:18   I was really obsessed with that project.

00:12:21   I remember we started working on it and I almost immediately roped in my engineer, Stu.

00:12:26   And we worked on it over Christmas and just kept on making so many different versions and

00:12:34   trying to figure it out.

00:12:35   So we were just really like it's almost like you get a brain bug and you can't let it go.

00:12:41   They're usually the best things, though.

00:12:42   Yeah, it's a frustrating but enjoyable place to be in.

00:12:47   And yeah, we worked on it for three years before releasing it, which is wild.

00:12:51   When you're in that kind of initial phase where you're trying to choose how you think it might

00:12:57   look, I have no doubt that you jump straight to a level of design, which I want to get to.

00:13:03   But before that stage, do you look for inspiration in things?

00:13:06   Do you go through books?

00:13:08   Do you go online?

00:13:09   Do you have any kind of places that you look or do you tend to go from your heart, your mind, like what you want to do?

00:13:14   I will sometimes scroll through Pinterest, but I feel like that rarely leads anywhere.

00:13:23   I'll definitely scroll for design cues.

00:13:27   So, for example, I made a version of a mechanical fruit bowl and we're working on a redesign of it.

00:13:33   And then it's like I need to choose the materials for it and kind of the shape and the form.

00:13:39   And for that, I'll be like, oh, gosh, what do I want this to look like?

00:13:43   And I'll definitely scroll for inspiration, but not so much for product ideas, because also I want the things to be something that you haven't seen before.

00:13:52   Yeah.

00:13:53   So, once I have an idea, then I'll scroll and be like, okay, has anybody else made something like this?

00:13:59   And if it is something that already exists in the world, then I kind of lose interest.

00:14:03   I do have a lot of design books.

00:14:05   I really love having design books because it makes me feel like a professional, but I almost never open them.

00:14:11   They're just looking pretty on my shelf.

00:14:14   Yeah.

00:14:14   I have a small bookcase full of design books and I'm like, ah, look at me.

00:14:17   Look at me.

00:14:18   Yeah.

00:14:18   Look at me.

00:14:20   I know all about it.

00:14:22   So, when you begin the design process, what is that?

00:14:27   Are you sketching?

00:14:28   Where does it actually begin?

00:14:29   So, it depends on the complexity, but usually the way it will happen is I will make a really bad sketch in my notebook and then I will hold it up to the webcam and talk it through with my engineer, Stu.

00:14:48   And we will start trying to talk about how this is going to work, especially if it's something that we're developing into a product because design from manufacturing, he's the one who makes the final models and all the engineering documents and everything.

00:15:02   But he's also just an amazing refiner of ideas.

00:15:06   I call him my rock tumbler because sometimes I'll throw out something really crude and he mulls it over and he's like, what if we did it like this?

00:15:16   But then, I mean, for some projects, I'll start sketching in materials.

00:15:22   So, I recently made a project that's a coffee table and I kind of had an idea of the mechanism and then I made a prototype in plywood just to kind of verify the measurements and the height of it and the way that it functioned.

00:15:37   And then, based on that, I sent measurements to him and he started making a model in Fusion 360.

00:15:43   That's the CAD program that we use and we'll pass it back and forth.

00:15:47   Would you try and build these things on your own first just so you can get a feel for them?

00:15:51   Even the manufactured products, like you would have your own version before you would send them to a manufacturer for a sample?

00:15:57   Like you would prefer to have your own first?

00:15:59   So, usually, the way it happens is that I make a YouTube version that I'll build on my own, often design on my own and do everything.

00:16:10   And then, we're like, okay, this is product potential.

00:16:12   Stu will take it.

00:16:14   I'll send him measurements and everything.

00:16:16   He'll make a Fusion 360 model and also multiple versions in his workshop.

00:16:22   And then, we present what we think is a golden article with a bunch of caveats of, like, this needs to be manufactured in this way and all the engineering documents.

00:16:31   And we send that to the factory.

00:16:34   And that's kind of when it's over to them.

00:16:36   So, we have suggested manufacturing processes and it's a collaborative effort with your manufacturer or with your factory to be like, okay, what tools do you have?

00:16:46   Because we're going to design the product accordingly and with that in mind.

00:16:50   They take that and they make their own version of it, send it to us.

00:16:55   We evaluate it and test it and vet it, send feedback documents over to them.

00:17:01   And then, it's kind of back and forth until we have a product that we think is good enough.

00:17:06   The manufacturing process, working with factories seems incredibly complicated.

00:17:12   I'm assuming there's a lot of back and forth digitally.

00:17:16   It's so relationship-based.

00:17:18   That's the crazy thing is it's really networking.

00:17:22   And, I mean, we're really lucky because one of our teammates, Avis, who actually used to be my accountant, she's now my head of manufacturing because she's from Hong Kong but lives in Australia.

00:17:33   And she was like, yeah, my, like, family is in manufacturing.

00:17:37   And you're like, why didn't you tell me this before?

00:17:39   Yeah, no, totally.

00:17:40   And she just started asking around and has now taught herself so much about manufacturing and supply chains.

00:17:48   I mean, we have dozens of factories that we work with because every product requires multiple factories.

00:17:55   And she has relationships with them and will, like, sit through dinners with our 3PL and do all these things.

00:18:02   I think initially something that was tricky was that we kind of ended up using our factories as an R&D department.

00:18:09   So we would send them a project and then they would make versions of it.

00:18:13   And then we would have a bunch of design changes that we would do.

00:18:16   And now we try to make sure that we have the way that we want the product to function and look fully fleshed out.

00:18:26   And then the only thing that we're feedbacking is how they've kind of brought that design to life.

00:18:31   They don't want to be testing for you, right?

00:18:34   No, we're all spring chickens in this.

00:18:36   So we weren't sure what, like, level of finished a design should be.

00:18:42   And we would also keep on, like, I'm a chronic mind changer.

00:18:46   So I'll just be like, oh, but what if we did it like this?

00:18:50   But now we have a good grasp of, like, how stable the design needs to be.

00:18:54   Granted, you always are going to end up wanting changes.

00:18:56   But, like, we really need to have a very clear idea of what we want the product to be before we ask a manufacturer to make a sample.

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00:20:53   How hard is product naming?

00:20:56   Naming?

00:20:56   Oh my god.

00:20:58   It's usually not that hard, except for the latest product that I released, which was a baseball cap that's made completely out of hook-and-loop fabric, so Velcro.

00:21:09   Legally distinct Velcro.

00:21:12   Yeah.

00:21:13   And it's so infuriating.

00:21:16   So we called it the Velcro cap, and all of our packaging says Velcro cap.

00:21:23   And then it wasn't my head of content, Anna.

00:21:26   There was like one day, like two weeks before we're going to launch it, she's like, hey, you guys, I think Velcro is a trademark.

00:21:33   And I had not thought about this, or like none of us had thought about it.

00:21:38   And it's like, oh my god, I can't believe that we walked into that.

00:21:41   So anybody who bought one is going to get a box that says Velcro cap, but please don't alert.

00:21:46   Limited edition.

00:21:47   Velcro corporation to that.

00:21:50   So that one was really tricky because it's like usually the names, we want them to be very descriptive or, yeah, like all of our names are really descriptive.

00:22:01   But for that one, like the most descriptive name, you could give a baseball cap that's fully made out of Velcro is Velcro cap.

00:22:15   We do this meetup every month, and I pulled the attendees to see like, oh, what do you want to be called?

00:22:21   And like had a bunch of naming suggestions.

00:22:23   But then what I settled on was patch cap, which is not a great name.

00:22:28   It doesn't really explain what it is and what it does.

00:22:31   And I think that the product has suffered because of it.

00:22:34   But also a name is also just a name.

00:22:36   Yeah, at a certain point, the name is just the name of the thing.

00:22:39   It's a weird phrase, but like at a certain point, the name doesn't matter anymore.

00:22:42   Like once you've gotten the story out and people understand what it is, you could call it anything.

00:22:47   I mean, yes, Velcro cap is obviously the perfect name for that product.

00:22:51   Like there's kind of no two ways about it, but you can't do that.

00:22:55   Yeah.

00:22:56   And it is.

00:22:57   I mean, a name is one of the ways you can explain what a product is, but you have a lot of other ways that you can explain what the product is.

00:23:06   So you just get to lean more heavily on that.

00:23:09   Is a product name important to you in design?

00:23:11   Like do you like to have a name for an item for it to feel real?

00:23:16   No, not really.

00:23:17   No, it doesn't matter to you so much.

00:23:19   It's mostly just like, oh, what should we refer to this as internally?

00:23:24   I think that's one of the tricky things with Yet Studio is that all of our products, like they're unique and do something that you don't expect them to do.

00:23:36   And they require more explanation than a lot of other products.

00:23:41   You know, like the coffee table I was mentioning, what's different about it is that it mechanically you can switch between it being a coffee table and an ottoman.

00:23:50   And I've just been calling it the coffee table ottoman, which is not a great name.

00:23:54   But it tells you what it does, you know?

00:23:55   Yeah, I mean, kind of.

00:23:57   But it's like, yeah, how do you explain that in a name?

00:24:00   And like as somebody who goes on your homepage and only sees a little square of it, then how do you explain what that is really clearly?

00:24:10   And I think in some way, it's like the way I started my career has helped with that, because initially when I was making robots, I would just make GIFs.

00:24:20   That was the like main piece of content was making a GIF of this machine working.

00:24:24   And it kind of trained me to like, how do you make a product that's novel, but easy enough to explain that you can explain it in like five second looping video without audio?

00:24:36   That is a proving ground.

00:24:38   Yeah.

00:24:39   And I think the thing I always tell myself is like, nobody's going to care that it also has Bluetooth.

00:24:43   Like it needs to be novel, but simple enough that a GIF could explain it.

00:24:49   I would like to talk to you about Kickstarter.

00:24:51   So you've done two Kickstarters, I think.

00:24:54   One for the Co-Hinju, which we spoke about.

00:24:56   And then one, I think, for your first product, the Everyday Calendar.

00:24:59   Why choose Kickstarter for a product?

00:25:06   When you don't always, so there are some instances where you feel like that is the right move.

00:25:11   What makes you decide to go down that route?

00:25:14   So for the first product, the Everyday Calendar, now known as the Everyday Goal Calendar, speaking of names, was, I think it really made sense.

00:25:24   Because it was the first one I was going to do.

00:25:26   I didn't have an existing infrastructure for making products and I needed initial funding for it.

00:25:35   It's also a really expensive product to make.

00:25:37   So for me to kind of expense all the stock, like I just didn't have the money to do it.

00:25:44   There's kind of no way that someone could go from zero to being able to sell that product.

00:25:49   Like it's a large frame size calendar that has electronics in it.

00:25:52   Essentially, you would every day, you touch a day number and it will illuminate to show that you've completed whatever it is your goal is.

00:25:58   That's physically too large to just do.

00:26:02   Yeah, it's a very ambitious first product to launch.

00:26:06   And I don't think I understood how ambitious it was, but which is, yeah, the blessing of being a novice.

00:26:12   So yeah, I think for that was probably the only way I could do it was through Kickstarter.

00:26:18   Because also just the thought of like fully developing this product to finish, but also buying up stock to then sell.

00:26:26   And there was just no way I would be able to do that.

00:26:30   And I also thought that from a marketing perspective, it's better to do a Kickstarter campaign.

00:26:36   And that was kind of the thinking.

00:26:37   So after I'd done that, I swore off ever doing Kickstarter campaigns again.

00:26:42   Granted, like our community was so sweet and they were so understanding.

00:26:46   I think we ended up being like a year late, but it was for good reason.

00:26:50   The reason's always okay.

00:26:52   The reason's mostly good, right?

00:26:54   Like for being late.

00:26:55   I think the choice that you're in is, yeah, we could ship on time.

00:27:00   But we could ship a product that's not as good as it could be.

00:27:03   But I mean, that was definitely my fault for being a beginner and having bitten off more that I could chew without realizing.

00:27:12   It's inherently the whole point of the platform, though.

00:27:14   I know.

00:27:14   I know.

00:27:15   I know.

00:27:15   But still, I feel bad about it.

00:27:17   The issue of the creator and the backer of like, I don't think it matters whatever Kickstarter will attempt to do.

00:27:22   They will never be able to break the idea in people's heads.

00:27:25   This is not just a pre-order mechanism.

00:27:27   Yeah.

00:27:27   But then after I'd done that, I kind of swore off ever doing Kickstarter again, because if there's anything that makes your anxiety go absolutely rampant, it's having people have paid $300 for a product that is running late and that you're still not fully sure it's going to work.

00:27:44   Like, you're pretty sure it's going to work, but not fully sure it's going to work.

00:27:47   You know, what happens if somebody hangs it in the bathroom or does all these other things?

00:27:51   Like, there's so much stuff you can't really test for.

00:27:54   And I'm assuming at the same time, not to bring your anxiety back, but like you're spending the money, right?

00:27:59   Like, you're going through this process because that's part of why you raise it.

00:28:04   But what that means is it's not returnable, essentially, which is the case anyway.

00:28:09   But again, it's like not how people feel.

00:28:11   No, having to return $600,000 would bankrupt me.

00:28:18   So yeah, there's a lot at stake.

00:28:21   And as somebody who really, really cares and is terrified of disappointing people, it's not a nice position to be in.

00:28:29   But then we had the coat hinder and I was once again in the same position where I was like, yeah, we could kind of do this.

00:28:36   The stock is going to be expensive because it is an expensive product.

00:28:39   But also, I think the reason I decided to do Kickstarter was because I was like, I feel like it's a better marketing vehicle.

00:28:47   Yeah.

00:28:48   Like a lot of news outlets will write about Kickstarter and crowdfunding campaigns, but they're not really going to write about like, oh, somebody released this product on a store.

00:28:56   That's weird, right?

00:28:57   Yeah.

00:28:58   It is weird that that happens.

00:29:00   I'm not really sure what it is about Kickstarter that makes people want to write about it in the way that they wouldn't in other ways.

00:29:08   It feels more newsworthy in some way.

00:29:10   But why?

00:29:11   I don't know.

00:29:12   I think it's become that and we feel that way.

00:29:13   But I don't understand inherently why here's a thing you could spend money on and maybe get is more newsworthy than you can get this thing now.

00:29:24   Yeah.

00:29:24   I don't know.

00:29:26   I think if I was a bigger corporation, then you could probably do a big marketing blitz and make people write about it.

00:29:32   I was mostly thinking of it through a marketing perspective.

00:29:36   But then also what you don't take into account, because the coat hinger did amazing with organic marketing.

00:29:45   I think it has like over 100 million views for like an Instagram reel that I made, which is crazy.

00:29:51   Like I've been to parties and people are like, you're the coat hanger lady.

00:29:55   And I'm like, sure, that's me.

00:29:56   If that's what my career has taken me, that's what I'll be.

00:29:59   I'll take that over shit, robot lady.

00:30:01   That's a new one.

00:30:02   Yeah.

00:30:03   I'm moving laterally.

00:30:05   But what you don't take into account is that the cost to get people to buy into a Kickstarter is a lot higher than the cost to get people to buy a product that they're going to get in like a week or two.

00:30:19   So it's like, yeah, we could put a bunch of marketing through raising money to our Kickstarter campaign, but it's going to be a lot easier to convince people to spend money once it's a product that we have in stock with reviews.

00:30:29   So we actually got to a point with the Kickstarter campaign where we're like, we're not going to do any paid marketing because it doesn't make sense to be spending money to convince people to do this when it's going to be cheaper to convince people to do this in a couple of months once we have it in stock.

00:30:43   And by that point, the story has been really well refined, right?

00:30:47   If you're going through the Kickstarter process, I expect it kind of, it refines the way that you talk about the product much more by the time that you end up getting there.

00:30:55   Yeah, I think it definitely, it gives you kind of a sandbox for messaging about it.

00:31:00   And it also gives you an opportunity to connect more deeply with your customers and for them to feel a part of the process.

00:31:08   But, I mean, with that said, I think we're still struggling to figure out how to market the Coat Hinger.

00:31:14   Like, I think it's such a good product.

00:31:17   I love it.

00:31:18   Like, I swear by this.

00:31:19   And I think it opens up a lot of possibilities for people.

00:31:23   But I think the way that we manufacture it has ended up being too expensive.

00:31:28   Like, our margins are not great on the product, so we can't really lower the price.

00:31:32   And it's really high quality and, like, it's a beautifully engineered product, if I may say so myself.

00:31:37   But people are really reluctant to spend that amount of money on coat hangers because they compare it to standard coat hangers, which is like, we can't compete to that or to the price of that because it does stuff that standard coat hangers can't do.

00:31:50   And it's just different, but also because it requires people to reconfigure their closet.

00:31:55   So you need a special rod to hang a specific distance from the wall.

00:32:00   And there's just, like, a lot of hurdles to get people to do it.

00:32:04   But then also, we immediately, I think it was, like, two weeks maybe before copycats started popping up that are, like, all plastic, terrible quality, and who, like, stole our images initially but then switched it out for their own bad AI-generated ones once they'd figured out what their version of it was going to be.

00:32:25   So now it's, like, you Google foldable coat hangers, and we're not first.

00:32:30   And the other ones, the copycats, are so much cheaper than ours.

00:32:34   It's the eternal struggle of being able to try to explain to your potential customers why a higher quality product is better.

00:32:42   Yeah, and I think it's just tough because I often feel as well that there are a lot of brands who are, like, tooting their own quality horn or they're like, yeah, you're getting this for exclusive.

00:32:52   But, like, you're really just paying for the brand.

00:32:53   And for us, it's like, yeah, we put a lot of thought into it.

00:32:59   And we're also doing it on a team of four people.

00:33:01   Yep.

00:33:02   And it's, like, made with so much love and care and dedication.

00:33:08   And we're literally running the business in a way that the goal is just for it to be successful enough and us to earn enough money that we can keep on doing this.

00:33:17   Yeah.

00:33:17   Like, that's the entire stated goal of the business is, like, I just want to make sure that we make enough money that we can keep on doing this.

00:33:24   Because I love this work and I care deeply about it.

00:33:28   And I don't want people to pay for the brand.

00:33:32   Like, I want them to pay for the product and to support somebody who's doing it independently.

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00:35:23   So you mentioned the understandable stress of a Kickstarter campaign closing and then the time period until it delivers.

00:35:33   How does that stress compare to I bought a bunch of stock.

00:35:38   Now I need to see if people want it.

00:35:40   Like with the patch cap, for example.

00:35:43   Yeah.

00:35:44   The patch cap is easy because it's not that expensive of a product.

00:35:52   And it's usually we try to only buy the amount of stock that we know that we can afford.

00:35:58   Another example is that August 7th, we released the spool table, which is a really expensive product to make.

00:36:06   And it's the most expensive product that we've ever sold.

00:36:09   And I mean, that's scary, but also we only made, I think, 300 of each color.

00:36:15   So it's still an amount of stock that I know that even if that like ended up rotting on the branch, I could take the impact of that cost.

00:36:24   But, you know, right now I'm more just terrified of like, what happens if the packaging doesn't hold up?

00:36:30   What happens if there is a moisture issue or something unforeseen?

00:36:36   And, you know, there's so many ways for things to go wrong.

00:36:40   Feels like a more logistically complicated product with size and weight and scale.

00:36:45   It's logistically complicated.

00:36:47   We're doing US only to take some of the complexity out of it.

00:36:52   Yeah.

00:36:53   Both from like a shipping perspective, but also just like we have three different colors.

00:37:00   And doing that three variants combined with different plugs is like, we can't do that.

00:37:07   Like that's way more than we can handle as a small company.

00:37:11   But yeah, so it's definitely scary.

00:37:14   But I think what I fall back on, you know, I used to be really, really terrified of any customers being upset.

00:37:22   And now what I fall back on is we are really doing our best for everyone to be happy.

00:37:29   Like we're deciding to lower the price of one of our products because we actually have enough margin on that one.

00:37:36   And for the customers who bought it at full price, we're going to send them gift cards with the like price difference.

00:37:45   So like we're really going above and beyond to make sure that people are having a good experience.

00:37:53   And that's all you can really do.

00:37:54   But then some people will be upset that we had this customer that was upset and wanted a refund because they had ordered a puzzle and they said that the box was messed up, which absolutely if the puzzle box is messed up, you should get a refund.

00:38:10   But then they sent photos and it wasn't the puzzle box.

00:38:13   It was the shipping box that had one fold on it.

00:38:18   And we were like, OK, actually, if the shipping box successfully delivered the product intact, we're going to have to count that as a successful shipping.

00:38:30   Yeah, it did what it was supposed to do.

00:38:32   Otherwise, we would just stick your address on the puzzle box.

00:38:34   Yeah, like that's supposed to take the beading and it wasn't even badly messed up.

00:38:39   Like it looked totally fine.

00:38:41   But it doesn't matter if it is.

00:38:42   Yeah.

00:38:42   I don't imagine you're doing a ton of design to the shipping boxes.

00:38:46   A little bit.

00:38:46   Yeah.

00:38:47   I mean, some of them for our more complex products, we do a lot of design to the shipping boxes because it has to like securely hold it.

00:38:53   And we are also really trying to produce packaging without any plastic.

00:38:57   So it's all cardboard and like paper pulp that's molded.

00:39:02   So we do actually put a lot of design into our packaging boxes.

00:39:06   That's why they can have a fold in them and not destroy the puzzle box.

00:39:09   You know, you put the other thing.

00:39:10   Do you hear a lot from your customers?

00:39:12   I personally don't.

00:39:16   OK.

00:39:16   So you have somebody managing support?

00:39:18   Yeah.

00:39:19   So we have a full time support person who does that.

00:39:23   I mean, I hear from customers because they send me DMs.

00:39:26   They're in your comments and stuff like that.

00:39:28   Yeah.

00:39:28   And they post on our slash Simone Yatch on Reddit.

00:39:32   Oh, no, don't go there.

00:39:33   It's honestly I ended up making a post there just the other day because I'm like, I'm so scared to look at it because it's like walking into a room of people talking about you.

00:39:43   But they give me no reason to be scared because they're all really sweet.

00:39:47   Oh, that's good.

00:39:47   Yeah.

00:39:48   So it's way less bad and scary than it sounds.

00:39:51   But yeah, so things do come to me.

00:39:52   And I mean, I'll hear about it on a higher level and I'll be on our customer support Slack channel and check that.

00:39:58   But I think for myself, I don't need to be the first line of responders to that.

00:40:04   Like I need to know if there are escalated issues.

00:40:07   But for kind of my mental health and focus, it's like, yeah, I know that we're dealing with it the best we can, but I don't need to be in all of it.

00:40:16   I mean, you've been online for a long time, creating content.

00:40:20   Yeah.

00:40:20   For much longer, you've been creating products.

00:40:22   Has that helped you deal with feedback?

00:40:24   Do you feel like you have a way of dealing with positive, negative feedback?

00:40:27   I mean, it's been 10 years now.

00:40:29   Is that enough time?

00:40:30   No, I have very little callous.

00:40:32   I don't have thick skin at all.

00:40:34   And I think I have somehow just been algorithmically blessed with really nice comment sections.

00:40:44   Good.

00:40:44   Like I have not gotten any like hate campaigns against me or people being really vile in a way that feels like they're really trying to get to me.

00:40:57   Like it'll be mostly impersonal stuff.

00:40:58   But yeah, and honestly, I don't think I could be on the Internet if it was rougher than that because I am so scared of people being angry with me.

00:41:09   I mean, that's like my anxiety loop in my personal relationships as well, where I'm like, oh, my God, is my mom angry with me?

00:41:17   And like my mom in 34 years has like pretty much never been angry with me.

00:41:21   She's the best.

00:41:22   But I'll still be like, oh, no, did I do something wrong?

00:41:24   There are so many creative people that I know, myself included, who feel this way.

00:41:30   Why do we choose this job?

00:41:32   Like before we started being online, we're like, oh, I'm worried people don't like me.

00:41:37   And then you end up, maybe you need that.

00:41:39   I don't know.

00:41:40   Yeah, because I think we also really want to be liked.

00:41:42   Yeah.

00:41:43   You know, that's probably it.

00:41:44   Not wanting to be disliked and really wanting to be liked is two sides of the same personality trait, I think.

00:41:50   Do you find it hard to separate yourself from your projects?

00:41:53   Or do you feel like they're a part of you, your identity?

00:41:57   Oh, they're definitely a part of my identity.

00:41:59   My job is deeply a part of my identity.

00:42:02   But I have really good work-life balance.

00:42:05   I feel like I've just developed a really good way of relating to work and kind of leaving it at the end of the day.

00:42:14   I don't work too much.

00:42:16   I don't ruminate a lot about work in my off time.

00:42:21   And yeah, of course, sometimes things will get to you and you'll carry it with you in your body.

00:42:27   But I have found a really good balance.

00:42:31   But it's been, I mean, it's been work to find that.

00:42:33   Right.

00:42:34   So that's a muscle you've worked on.

00:42:35   Like that's taken effort and conscious time.

00:42:37   Yeah.

00:42:38   And I think honestly being sick really helped because I was really sick and I was forced to rest and kind of step away.

00:42:45   And it helped to reprogram what it means to be good because before being good was constantly working and pushing myself really hard.

00:42:53   And when you're recovering from an illness, being good is really listening to your body and making sure that you have enough time to rest and take care of yourself.

00:43:02   And that's kind of been a permanent change since I did that.

00:43:06   That's been really positive.

00:43:07   I mean, you learn something that's more important, right?

00:43:10   Like ultimately.

00:43:10   Yeah.

00:43:11   And I think also it's like just knowing that me enjoying my work is really important for the success of the business.

00:43:19   Like it's what it hinges on.

00:43:20   And if I stop enjoying what I'm doing, then the quality of the projects that I do is really going to suffer.

00:43:27   The quality of the content, the quality of everything and the happiness of my team.

00:43:32   Like it is my job to make sure that I take good enough care of myself that I'm actually enjoying it because I need to enjoy it to do it well.

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00:45:40   We've touched on marketing a little bit because I guess it is a thread that runs through a product's entire life.

00:45:48   The marketing creative for YET Studio.

00:45:51   It's very fun.

00:45:52   It's very engaging.

00:45:53   It feels like you.

00:45:54   Are you involved in this part of the process as well?

00:45:57   Both yes and no.

00:46:00   So, less and less, which is what I want.

00:46:03   Yeah.

00:46:03   Like, initially, I wrote everything.

00:46:06   I did all the concepts and stuff because there's a very specific voice that I wanted to be in and a specific feel where it's like we're fun and playful, but at the same time, like, have a lot of respect and reverence for our products.

00:46:24   But all of our email marketing, our email marketing is wild.

00:46:28   I love it.

00:46:30   I'm on the list and it is something to behold.

00:46:32   Like, I love it.

00:46:33   It's great.

00:46:33   It's so weird.

00:46:34   And I want to open your emails.

00:46:36   It works, right?

00:46:38   Because it's like, what is this one going to be?

00:46:40   I mean, we've started doing more of the, like, retention marketing or where it's like, you have an abandoned cart, which is maybe not the most exciting stuff.

00:46:47   But, like, the big marketing campaigns that go out are really weird.

00:46:51   Like, one of the recent ones that we did was an everyday calendar calendar.

00:46:57   So we made a sexy calendar, like, kind of like a fireman calendar before our everyday goal calendar.

00:47:02   And it's just photoshopped, like, parts of, like, the everyday calendar as a firefighter, as a construction worker, as a pool boy.

00:47:11   I just want it to be worth opening.

00:47:15   And that's all a guy named Luke, who's in Australia.

00:47:18   And he just has the best brain.

00:47:23   And he comes up with the ideas and he makes a version of it.

00:47:26   I leave notes on it.

00:47:27   And usually it's a no-notes situation on my end.

00:47:31   So that's a huge relief that there's somebody who can, like, kind of hold the voice of the brand better than I can.

00:47:38   And then for all of our content, I have my head of content, Anna, and then my editor, Billette, are doing a lot of our, like, Instagram reels and doing all the shoots and the product photography and all of that.

00:47:52   And I'll, like, write captions or give feedback to it.

00:47:55   But it has less and less to do with me.

00:47:58   And then earlier this year, I hired a chief operating officer who's taken over a lot of the logistics of the company and just, like, is the one putting together our town halls and, like, the company-wide emails that are, like, this is what our numbers were.

00:48:15   And now I'm at a point where I have time and I'll be, like, on a Wednesday looking around being, like, oh, what should I do today?

00:48:25   Like, everybody's working.

00:48:26   I don't have anything on my list.

00:48:28   I guess I should tinker or, like, think of a new project, which is a very new position for me to be in because before it was, like, to get the ball rolling, it was all me having to push it.

00:48:40   And now it's not.

00:48:41   And it's, like, I am really stoked and proud of that because it's kind of the future that I imagined for myself and that I hope to build.

00:48:49   And I'm, like, oh, my, wow, I'm living it.

00:48:51   And I have people who are better at doing the jobs that I used to do than I am.

00:48:54   You mentioned that the team was four, but it sounds like more from the way that you're describing it.

00:48:59   It's four full-time employees on the product business.

00:49:03   Yep.

00:49:04   And then two that are splitting their time between the product business and the media business, so the YouTube channel and the influencer stuff.

00:49:14   And do you work with contractors, too, or is everybody?

00:49:16   Some contractors, but mostly, yeah, the marketing, the guy who writes our emails is a contractor.

00:49:22   But, yeah, pretty much all employees.

00:49:24   How do you work together?

00:49:26   Are you all distributed?

00:49:28   We're remote, most of us.

00:49:30   So there's two of them in-house.

00:49:32   And then Stu, my engineer, is in the UK.

00:49:35   Katie, my COO, is on the Gold Coast in Australia.

00:49:39   Avis is between Shenzhen and Melbourne.

00:49:42   Our customer service ref, Stefan, is in Serbia.

00:49:46   This sounds like it would be impossible to do an all-team meeting.

00:49:49   It's tricky.

00:49:50   Is it, like, a 20-minute window?

00:49:51   Somebody is always going to suffer.

00:49:54   No, because we're literally hitting every time zone.

00:49:57   So I know Avis gets up really early for, like, our dev meetings with Stu, my engineer, and me.

00:50:03   But we're kind of making it work.

00:50:05   And I think what's nice about it is that I do want my workshop to be a bit separate because we're also filming content there.

00:50:14   So, like, I can't have too many people in there because it's kind of this space that we need to have set up for shooting videos and for doing stuff.

00:50:21   And also, I don't want too many people looking at me as I'm doing stuff, ironically enough.

00:50:26   It's been really good.

00:50:27   But I think, you know, somehow I had imagined that I wanted to have 50 employees.

00:50:32   And then, like, that's the size of the company I want because then I can still know everybody's name and what they're doing.

00:50:38   But now I'm like, no, if we can do this on, like, maybe eight employees, great.

00:50:43   Like, there's nothing that I feel that we can't do now that I want to do.

00:50:48   This is the benefit of being in the time that we're in to create a business like this because you don't need to employ warehouse stuff.

00:50:55   Yeah.

00:50:56   You know, there are so many parts of a business which you don't need to fully control and you also don't have to anymore.

00:51:04   And so, you know, you mentioned 3PO earlier.

00:51:06   It's a third-party logistics company.

00:51:07   So, you can have, you know, we will ship all of our stuff there and they will do it.

00:51:11   And then you can bring in a company that can help you place ads on Instagram and, like, they can do that.

00:51:16   You don't have to bring everything in.

00:51:18   And, like, that is what makes it possible for, like, if you had to have 50, 100 employees, maybe this wouldn't be achievable.

00:51:27   No, it wouldn't be possible.

00:51:28   Yeah, because I need, like, a fifth of this person.

00:51:31   Yeah.

00:51:32   A third of this person.

00:51:34   And you can do that by contracting things out.

00:51:36   It's a good time.

00:51:37   Even though the tariffs are tricky.

00:51:39   Yeah.

00:51:40   It's just a good time to be in this business.

00:51:42   Yeah, that's rough.

00:51:43   But, I mean, how easy is it to make stuff in America, am I right?

00:51:46   Like, so simple.

00:51:47   Like, it's just, you're just going down the corner and there's a manufacturing warehouse in you.

00:51:51   No, I mean, the thinking that we have, I mean, the situation is still stabilizing and changing.

00:51:56   So, we haven't, like, made any big shifts to adjust yet because it's like, we don't know what's going to happen.

00:52:02   But my line of thinking is it's a lot easier for us to change the market than where we manufacture.

00:52:09   So, if the tariff situation keeps on being unfeasible in the States, then we'll just open a 3PL in Europe

00:52:16   and start marketing it there instead.

00:52:18   Because that's an easier adjustment to make than moving our manufacturing to the States.

00:52:23   Like, there's just no way.

00:52:24   You know, I've never heard anybody explain it in just exactly that way before.

00:52:27   And, like, that is a very interesting way of thinking about it.

00:52:31   Because, yes, once you've found your manufacturing partner and you're making a product that works,

00:52:35   having to change that is, like, the worst possible thing that could happen.

00:52:38   Yeah.

00:52:38   Because it's like, well, you've got to start all over again.

00:52:40   And then you've lost all of the profit you've built up in the product at that point.

00:52:44   Because then you have to start paying off R&D again and you just go right back to the beginning.

00:52:48   Yeah.

00:52:49   How do you and the team work together?

00:52:51   Do you use, like, tools like Slack?

00:52:53   Like, how are you communicating?

00:52:54   We use Slack and Notion has become our new, like, kind of files hub in Google Drive.

00:53:02   Yeah.

00:53:04   I mean, we have one monthly town hall, which is our all-hands-on-deck meeting,

00:53:09   where we're kind of going through what's new this month.

00:53:12   Everybody's, like, a little bit of a show-and-tell of everybody being like,

00:53:15   look, I made this.

00:53:16   Or I worked on this.

00:53:17   Or, like, here's photos from our factory.

00:53:19   Or here's how well this email campaign did.

00:53:22   I thought that working remotely would be a second-tier level work relationship.

00:53:30   You know, and obviously it's different from, like, having somebody that you see every day.

00:53:34   But it's really nice.

00:53:36   And it's also kind of great for things to be able to happen on different time zones.

00:53:40   Because they'll be like, I'll write something at the end of the day.

00:53:43   And I get up in the morning, and that person has already actioned it, and it's done.

00:53:48   So there are some benefits to it.

00:53:49   And we do try to meet up as a company now and then.

00:53:52   Or, like, people fly out to the States and just have, like, a company retreat or something like that.

00:53:58   So it's kind of working out.

00:53:59   But, I mean, a lot of the people I've worked with in some capacity for the better part of a decade.

00:54:04   So it's people that we know really well.

00:54:08   And there's a lot of trust, which I think also is required for working remote.

00:54:12   So we're kind of at the point of the workflow, the life cycle of your product now that we're going through.

00:54:16   We're into the point now where you're finding kind of, like, the long-tail success of it.

00:54:20   So you've got it on your store, and you're selling it as part of the portfolio.

00:54:24   How do you manage that part?

00:54:27   Like, what are you doing to work out how much stock to order?

00:54:30   Like, all this kind of stuff.

00:54:31   Like, how do you think about and manage a product that is now just a permanent part of the lineup?

00:54:36   It's not a part of a big splashy kickstart campaign or anything anymore.

00:54:40   It's just available in your store.

00:54:42   We're still kind of finding our pace with that.

00:54:47   Like, this year has been the first year where it feels like we're a wheel properly rolling.

00:54:52   Whereas before, it was just like, we're running out of this.

00:54:54   We should do this.

00:54:56   But it's like, we know what the lead times are on the different products.

00:54:59   And we're keeping an eye on, like, okay, we think we're going to run out of everyday goal calendars in November.

00:55:06   Let's start working on a new batch now.

00:55:10   So I think we found a pretty good rhythm.

00:55:13   But I mean, with that said, it's what Forexed our sales against last year, this year.

00:55:18   How?

00:55:19   I mean, part of it was releasing.

00:55:23   I released a jigsaw puzzle that did surprisingly well.

00:55:26   I think I'd ordered 1,000 of them, and we ended up selling 12,000 on, like, the first week.

00:55:31   Wow.

00:55:32   Which was like, what?

00:55:32   Yeah.

00:55:33   But also, we've just hiring my editor, who's enabled us to increase our content output, has helped a lot.

00:55:42   Hiring the chief operating officer, who's kind of across everything, has helped a lot.

00:55:46   We also moved to Shopify from another platform, and, like, redesigned the whole website and relaunched it.

00:55:53   And I think it's just performing better.

00:55:54   So, yeah, I think we're just maturing.

00:55:57   Is that just because of, like, the tools that they have?

00:55:59   Like, you mentioned, like, the cart emails, abouting cart emails and stuff like that.

00:56:02   But, like, I guess, once you plug into an infrastructure like that, it all just kind of makes sense.

00:56:06   Yeah.

00:56:07   It's given us a lot more granularity in terms of data and looking at what's working and what's not working.

00:56:13   So, yeah, I feel like we're finally starting to hit a really good stride.

00:56:18   And I'm stoked because it's been, you know, it's tricky to run a business for three years that's, like, losing a significant amount of money every month.

00:56:27   And being like, no, I believe in this.

00:56:29   I don't think that this – I'm not being just stupid and stubborn.

00:56:32   Like, I think that this is actually going to be a good investment in the long term.

00:56:36   And now being like, okay, I think we can actually make this work.

00:56:39   So, I assume you were funding it, right?

00:56:41   Like, when it's losing money for it to continue, the YouTube channel was paying for the business to exist.

00:56:46   Yeah.

00:56:47   We took out no investment or anything.

00:56:50   So, it was all just taking money from the YouTube channel and investing it into the product business.

00:56:55   Has the product business changed the way you think about the YouTube channel?

00:56:58   Yeah.

00:56:59   I mean, it's given it new life in a way where I was like, I don't know what to use this for.

00:57:05   Like, I'm not really excited about the prospect of making YouTube videos.

00:57:10   Even though it is fun and I do enjoy it.

00:57:12   I really do.

00:57:13   It can also just get tired when you've done it for a long time and you're like, I'm not really having interest.

00:57:18   But this is like – but now I have something that I care really deeply about.

00:57:22   And also, the YouTube channel is giving me an excuse to constantly try new things and to build new projects.

00:57:27   Yeah.

00:57:28   And it's kind of the perfect combination.

00:57:30   So, I think it's just such a good constant prompt to be like, okay, what can I think of this month?

00:57:37   I really enjoy the videos that you make about running this business.

00:57:41   A particular highlight is when you went to a trade show.

00:57:44   This was for Coat Hinger, right?

00:57:47   I think.

00:57:47   Uh-huh.

00:57:48   The way that I remember it is you went to a trade show and basically just stood on your own for the day.

00:57:53   Yeah.

00:57:53   And very awkward.

00:57:56   And we almost did no sales.

00:58:00   And it was not a good return on investment.

00:58:03   But we learned a lot of things from it.

00:58:05   I've been to these kinds of product trade shows just as like going to see the products that are there and just see what people are doing.

00:58:13   Because, you know, it's interesting.

00:58:15   And I find them to be incredibly awkward environments.

00:58:18   Mm-hmm.

00:58:19   To be in.

00:58:20   Like, it is very strange to walk down a corridor and like everyone wants to like to grab you.

00:58:25   It's a very strange feeling.

00:58:26   Yeah.

00:58:27   I can enjoy trade shows as a visitor.

00:58:30   But I don't enjoy talking to people and having an ulterior motive and being like, let me tell you about this product.

00:58:37   But yeah, we're doing some more ones that are for wholesale where we're going to show our wider catalog of product and try to get them into physical stores.

00:58:48   And I think that makes a lot of sense.

00:58:50   Looking at the kind of the two areas of your life, like the content creation and the product creation, over the next 10 years, kind of where do you imagine you're going to be?

00:58:59   Do you have someone you want to be?

00:59:00   Do you have someone you think you'll be?

00:59:02   Like, what does that look like?

00:59:03   I mean, the funny thing is that I am for the kind of the first time so infuriatingly content.

00:59:14   Like, I love my job.

00:59:17   I love my house.

00:59:18   I love my team.

00:59:19   I love my dogs and my cat.

00:59:21   I love my boyfriend.

00:59:22   I love my family, my friends.

00:59:23   Like, everything is really good.

00:59:27   And I'm so deeply enjoying the projects that we're doing.

00:59:32   And I just like, I'm like, yeah, let's just keep on doing this.

00:59:36   I would want to expand the team a little bit just to kind of take some stress off of some of our team members.

00:59:43   I think it would be great to have, like, a full-time salesperson, probably, to manage wholesale once we're ready for that.

00:59:49   We have some products that are coming out that would be really great for wholesale.

00:59:52   And have a full-time marketing person in-house, probably, I think would be really great.

00:59:59   But, you know, I started the product business before I really needed it because the YouTube channel was still doing well and, like, the YouTube industry was doing well.

01:00:09   Now, I don't know if you've felt that as well, but, like, the YouTube or, like, influencer market has really matured a lot and the prices have gone down a lot.

01:00:19   So, we're at a point where my product business is finally going to make a small profit this year.

01:00:26   And my YouTube channel is making about 50% of what it made two years ago.

01:00:33   Yeah.

01:00:33   Yeah.

01:00:34   I mean, we see that with podcast advertising, right?

01:00:36   That's our biggest thing.

01:00:37   Yeah.

01:00:37   Like, it's just 10 times the amount of work for, like, 75% of the money.

01:00:42   Yeah.

01:00:43   I mean, part of it, I think the world is a little bit scared of spending money right now for good reasons.

01:00:48   But, yeah, it's also just the market has matured.

01:00:51   Yeah.

01:00:52   Before pricing was very vibes-based, brands were like, yeah, we want to spend this much money on this creator because we like their vibes.

01:00:59   And now it's, like, very much, like, how many views did you have on your last five videos and we pay this much?

01:01:04   So, I feel like it's become a lot more organized in a way that's made my prices suffer a lot.

01:01:09   But it's kind of what I hoped for was, like, the YouTube would kind of business would taper a little bit and then that the product business would become the main focus and the main moneymaker.

01:01:19   And the YouTube business would kind of live more in support of the product business than the other way around.

01:01:25   And I think that is what's happening naturally.

01:01:28   There's a kind of mercy for your own ambitions in the industry changing, right?

01:01:33   Because if the YouTube channel kept growing, it would make it harder and harder for you to be able to put the efforts into the thing you actually want to put your efforts into.

01:01:43   Yeah.

01:01:43   It's great that my YouTube channel isn't doing as well as it used to.

01:01:46   It's actually an amazing thing.

01:01:48   I'm so happy about it.

01:01:50   No, but it's kind of what I hope to happen.

01:01:53   And it's making the trajectory that I want it to happen make sense also business-wise and not just emotionally.

01:01:59   So, I'm hoping for that to be more.

01:02:01   But I think I'll keep on doing some sort of YouTube.

01:02:03   I mean, I think kind of the thinking is if I have kids, I would probably stop doing YouTube at least for a year or two.

01:02:14   But keep on doing the product business because I can keep the product business afloat with like an hour of work a day.

01:02:19   Just to give people approvals.

01:02:21   And we have like that's something that can happen so independently of me.

01:02:24   And this is also why I built the product business because I wanted to be able to step away.

01:02:28   Yeah.

01:02:28   And not have everything have to hinge on me.

01:02:30   So, it's, you know, is there any bigger health problem than having a child?

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01:04:29   I have learned that you can tell a lot about somebody and the things that they prioritize by looking at their home screen of their phone.

01:04:35   Yeah.

01:04:36   And so I asked you to send me the home screen of your phone.

01:04:39   The first thing that jumped out to me is you have lots of messaging apps.

01:04:44   Oh, do I?

01:04:45   We have the standard messaging app, iMessage and SMS.

01:04:48   We have WhatsApp and we have Facebook Messenger.

01:04:51   Is this one of those scenarios where my assumption would be you have friends all over the world and you can't force them all into one application?

01:04:58   I mean, I mostly keep contact with people on the iMessage app.

01:05:04   Yeah.

01:05:05   The Facebook Messenger is just a legacy left over.

01:05:09   Like, yeah, we have, there's like a thread with my cousins, maybe.

01:05:14   Yeah.

01:05:14   Like, my childhood best friend is on there, maybe.

01:05:19   And then the WhatsApp is where my neighborhood chat is on.

01:05:23   So, like, all my neighbors with a couple of block radius is on there.

01:05:28   So, that's mostly where I'm chatting with them.

01:05:30   Like, hey, there's like somebody throwing rocks at the sky on this street.

01:05:37   Watch out.

01:05:38   I noticed that other than Instagram, there is no social media on your home screen.

01:05:44   So, like, no text-based social media stuff, Blue Sky, Twitter, that kind of stuff.

01:05:47   Are they on your phone at all?

01:05:49   Yeah.

01:05:50   Okay.

01:05:51   They are.

01:05:51   I am mostly on threads, honestly.

01:05:55   I should probably be on Blue Sky more.

01:05:57   But I also, I mean, I brick my phone.

01:05:59   I have the brick app.

01:06:02   I have one of these.

01:06:03   I was heavily marketed on Instagram and bought one because I was interested, but I haven't set it up yet.

01:06:08   It's honestly one of the few things that's really worked for me.

01:06:10   So, this is a little device that you touch your phone to, and then it's using a selection of parental controls.

01:06:17   Device Management tools that Apple built in, but they've built a great app to basically then lock your phone down and remove access to a bunch of apps, right, until you retouch it down again.

01:06:27   So, explain to me, where does the little device live?

01:06:31   Like, what is your relationship to that?

01:06:33   It's on my fridge, and especially on weekends or evenings where, you know, it's hard because being on social media is a part of my job, so I can't fully delete them, and I can't fully, like, have a dumb phone, which is tempting.

01:06:45   But times where I'm like, you know what?

01:06:47   I don't want to get stuck in a scroll hole right now.

01:06:49   I'll just tap my phone to the brick.

01:06:51   And what's really nice about it is that it takes the willpower out of it, where I feel like a lot of other stuff of, like, don't look at your phone, don't look at your phone, don't do this, don't spend time on Instagram, requires active willpower on my end.

01:07:07   But when I brick my phone, it kind of shuts that debate off.

01:07:11   And just the tiny hurdle of having to go to my fridge and tap my phone to it is enough that I don't do it unless I have to.

01:07:20   But, yeah, I should brick probably the New York Times app as well because I spend so much time playing Sudoku.

01:07:29   But also I love Sudoku.

01:07:30   Maybe it's, like, good for my brain or something.

01:07:33   It's better than being on Instagram, right?

01:07:35   Like, that's for sure.

01:07:35   Like, if you're going to spend some time doing something on your phone, that's probably the thing.

01:07:39   I did a similar but maybe more extreme version, I don't know, like six months or so.

01:07:44   I got another phone.

01:07:45   I've made that my work phone and that's where all the social media is and it's in my backpack.

01:07:51   And so, for me, I have to go to my backpack, open it and take it out.

01:07:55   Like, it's just too much aggro.

01:07:57   And then, as I'm sure you experience, once you do this for a long enough time, it does actually start to just take away the feeling.

01:08:04   Like, sometimes I realize it's Sunday night and I didn't check social media since Friday because it's like I'm just not doing it anymore.

01:08:11   And it works great.

01:08:12   I love it.

01:08:12   Yeah, I feel like it's interesting how, like, small hurdles can change your behavior.

01:08:16   I was hanging out with Tom Scott, another YouTuber, the other week.

01:08:20   And he told me he was, like, being allergic to my cat.

01:08:24   And I was like, do you want some pills?

01:08:26   And I brought out allergy pills.

01:08:28   And he's like, oh, it's so crazy to see pills in a bottle.

01:08:31   Because in Europe, you don't have it because there was all this legislation that you had to have where you pop them out of the pill packets.

01:08:38   Yeah.

01:08:39   Because it reduced the amount that people committed suicide by pills significantly.

01:08:46   I didn't know that was the reason.

01:08:47   Because just the hurdle of having to pop out pills was enough to reduce it.

01:08:55   Because you can't just pour a handful.

01:08:56   Like, chug it down.

01:08:57   Yeah.

01:08:58   That's crazy.

01:08:58   And it's interesting.

01:08:59   These really small hurdles can have drastically different behavioral outcomes.

01:09:05   And I think that that's, gosh, this is a very grim comparison.

01:09:07   But yeah, that's what the brick does for my phone.

01:09:10   It's just, it's not an insurmountable hurdle by any means.

01:09:13   But it does make it easier.

01:09:14   Can I pitch three productivity hacks that I have?

01:09:18   Oh, yes, please.

01:09:19   That are a to-do list base.

01:09:20   Absolutely.

01:09:20   I feel like this is a good context.

01:09:21   One is whenever somebody recommends a movie or a book, I write it down on a to-do list.

01:09:26   So this is in the app to-do that you have on your phone?

01:09:28   Yeah.

01:09:29   Yeah.

01:09:29   So I have everything there.

01:09:30   I also have a packing list that I've had there for probably seven years.

01:09:37   It's a to-do list of everything I've ever needed to pack.

01:09:40   So when I'm preparing for a list, I'll just go through all my checked items and I'll uncheck

01:09:44   the ones that I know I need.

01:09:45   And then as I pack them, I check them.

01:09:48   And it makes sure that I never forget everything.

01:09:50   Like, I don't have to, like, reinvent my packing list every time.

01:09:53   And then the third thing I do that's also, like, to-do list based, but I have it in my notepad,

01:10:00   I do this both for work and for chores while I write a really detailed list of chores,

01:10:06   for example, on my Sundays or my big chore days.

01:10:08   And it'll be like, I need to empty the trash.

01:10:11   I need to clean this up from the front yard.

01:10:13   I need to water my plants.

01:10:15   So, like, really bite-sized tasks.

01:10:17   And then I just roll dice to pick which one I do.

01:10:21   And that, for some reason, makes me so hyper-focused on, like, I'm only going to do that one task.

01:10:28   I'm going to finish it fully before I start something else.

01:10:32   So, I get to tick that box.

01:10:34   And, like, the randomization about it makes it so that I don't cherry-pick the tasks that I want to do

01:10:39   and, like, kick the can on the ones I don't want to do.

01:10:41   And it just, I don't know, it just makes me into an absolute beast of getting through so much stuff.

01:10:49   And it's all the stuff that you've, like, passed for the last two years.

01:10:52   And you're like, oh, I should really get to that someday.

01:10:54   You write it on the list and you just, you end up just doing it.

01:10:56   So, this is not going to be enough for you, I think.

01:10:59   But I thought that you might like it.

01:11:01   There's a company I came across a while ago called Gladden Design.

01:11:05   And they make a paper version of this.

01:11:07   So, they have a notebook which has one to six.

01:11:10   And they sell a pencil that is a D6.

01:11:12   So, you roll the pencil.

01:11:14   And then it gives you the number.

01:11:16   And then you do the task from the one to six.

01:11:18   And that's great.

01:11:19   It's really fun.

01:11:20   So, I guess you're doing, I'm assuming, like, double dice kind of thing going on.

01:11:24   You've got, like, a huge list of stuff.

01:11:25   That's really great, though.

01:11:27   It makes it so fun.

01:11:28   Like, I actually look forward to chores.

01:11:31   What I like about this and why I think I'm going to bring this into my life is part of the problem when I'm doing the house chore stuff is there are just certain things that I just don't want to do.

01:11:41   But if the dice are telling me I have to do them, then, well, I have to do them.

01:11:45   Like, this is the order in which they have come.

01:11:47   So, I've given over to the dice at that point.

01:11:49   So, that's what I'm going to do.

01:11:50   It turns off the executive function.

01:11:52   Like, you don't have to be the one.

01:11:54   And the internal debate.

01:11:56   And then you just become a cog.

01:11:58   And you're like, okay, I'm going to do this thing.

01:12:00   And it's really satisfying because you get to tick the box and do all the things.

01:12:06   And then at the end of the day, you're like, wow, look at how much stuff I did.

01:12:08   That is a great product to be a hack.

01:12:10   It works for me.

01:12:11   Or also that I'll, if there's something I don't want to do where I'm like, I need to start packing or I need to clean this thing, I'll be like, okay.

01:12:20   I'm going to pick a song that I really like.

01:12:22   I'm going to turn it on.

01:12:23   I only have to do it for the duration of the song.

01:12:26   And then the trick is that at the end of the song, something else starts playing.

01:12:30   And you're like, oh, now I'm started.

01:12:31   But, like, you have to tell yourself, I'm only going to do it for the duration of the song that I really like.

01:12:37   Thank you all for listening.

01:12:38   I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Simone.

01:12:41   And I wanted to thank Simone for all of the time that she gave to talking about that and sharing her story.

01:12:45   If you enjoyed this show and you want more of it, I have great news for you.

01:12:50   On MoreTex this time, I talked to Simone about how she deals with ripoff products.

01:12:55   There are people that go out there and take her ideas and sell them for cheap and even use her imagery.

01:13:01   I want to talk a little bit about that.

01:13:02   If you want to hear this, you can sign up for MoreTex at getmortex.com, where you'll get ad-free episodes, including the whole back catalog and tons of additional bonus content.

01:13:13   If you have any questions or follow-up, you can always send them in at cortexfeedback.com.

01:13:19   If you've enjoyed this episode, why don't you share it with a friend?

01:13:22   It would mean a lot to me if you did.

01:13:24   I want to thank you all for listening, and I'll be back soon.