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ATP

650: Whatever It Takes to Get the Laundry Folded

 

00:00:00   When Declan was really little, I'm saying like two-ish years old, Aaron typically would bring him to what I like to call baby gym. It was a place called Romp and Roll, where you would bring your infant or your toddler and you would do like, not gymnastics, but like they would run around and play and sing songs and do games and whatever the case may be.

00:00:20   Collect viruses.

00:00:21   She did this with him constantly. I went on Sundays with Declan and we would go in the morning and do a Romp and Roll together. We would have lunch together and this gave Aaron some time to not be mom and be Aaron.

00:00:34   And one of the times that I went to this barbecue place with Declan, it was like two or three at the time, I had gotten myself some French fries and I thought, you know what, I'll let him try a French fry because what's it going to hurt if he tries it just once?

00:00:47   And this was early on in dad life when I didn't realize that much like with a dog, if you try something just once with a child, especially of that age, it's not just once, baby.

00:00:57   Guess what? Declan's going to demand French fries every time for the rest of time.

00:01:02   And so...

00:01:04   It's like trying heroin just once.

00:01:05   Right, exactly. And so I learned my lesson.

00:01:08   But fast forward to earlier today, and for reasons unknown, Declan has decided that he would like to listen to at least a little bit of ATP tonight.

00:01:19   And so I believe that through the wall behind me, he and his sister are, and maybe Aaron, are listening to me.

00:01:27   And he was very excited to find the delay between when he hears me laughing through the wall and when I'm laughing on the live broadcast.

00:01:36   So now, I don't know what to do with myself because I love that he's there interested in this, but I don't know if this is a French fry situation where I will regret the monsters that I've created, or if this is nothing but a healthy thing.

00:01:52   So say hi to the rest of the family, you two, because apparently for at least a few minutes, they're here as well.

00:01:59   Hi, the rest of the family. Sorry about the heroin joke.

00:02:01   So let's assume that your amazingly powerful dad uncoolness will repel him eventually, or that our combined three-way dad uncoolness, because we have a potent dose of dad uncoolness here.

00:02:13   And so there's only, I mean, how old is he now?

00:02:15   Declan is 10. He is close to 11.

00:02:18   Oh, yeah. One or two more years, and he will not be able to tolerate how uncool we all are as dads.

00:02:23   Exactly. Now, Michaela, she is seven and a half now, and so I think I am still at least slightly cool for the most part.

00:02:30   Of course, some of the, oh, dad's so uncool, we'll bleed from him to her at some point.

00:02:35   But yes, by our powers combined, the three of us can repel any child, I'm quite sure.

00:02:40   Is Declan interested in computer stuff?

00:02:43   Not in the way that you mean, I don't think.

00:02:46   He's become more and more interested in futzing about with his phone.

00:02:51   Like earlier today, another example of the French fry thing.

00:02:54   We have, both of them have older iPhones that don't have cellular service.

00:02:59   I've mentioned this many times in the past.

00:03:01   But they use them as a noise maker when they sleep, and they also can text only Aaron and myself, because we have, you know, parental controls, whatever it's called, screen time and all that set up in such a way that they can only text us.

00:03:14   But earlier today, we relented, and now they are allowed to text each other via, you know, their respective email addresses, which are used only, excuse me, only for this purpose.

00:03:25   And I don't know if this is another French fry situation, where all of a sudden I have created a monster, or two monsters, really, where they will start texting each other, you know, the second they're both awake.

00:03:36   Now, granted, we have, you know, times that I don't think they can use the Messages app until like 7 in the morning or something like that.

00:03:42   But who knows what monsters we've created.

00:03:45   But I'm enjoying, as much as I joke, I'm enjoying this surprising amount of interest in what Dad does for a living.

00:03:52   Because usually it's, you know, oh, he clickety-clacks on the keyboard and yaps into the microphone from time to time.

00:03:57   And that's mostly accurate, if I'm honest.

00:03:59   Maybe it'll stop you from having such a potty mouth.

00:04:01   That's the thing, yeah.

00:04:03   Now I've got to really watch myself, right?

00:04:05   Our first topic today is how to bypass screen time protection.

00:04:08   He doesn't need us for that.

00:04:10   Right, that's probably true.

00:04:11   All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:04:16   And we, I think it was John quipped last episode, do you think there's anybody listening to this right now who is currently wearing a Vision Pro?

00:04:24   Nope, it was Marco.

00:04:25   Oh, it wasn't Marco?

00:04:26   See, the one time I actually...

00:04:27   Just the opposite of what you think.

00:04:29   It's so true.

00:04:31   Anyway.

00:04:31   It stands as a technique.

00:04:32   Right.

00:04:32   So anyway, so Marco quipped, do you think there's anybody listening to this right now who's currently wearing a Vision Pro?

00:04:37   And I think both John and I simultaneously said no.

00:04:40   Well, it turns out, friend of the show, Steve Griffin-Jones, is and was that person.

00:04:45   So make that one, right, Steve Griffin-Jones?

00:04:47   It's a great device to wear while doing chores, so you can have a floating video while you fold laundry or play pause media with soapy dish hands.

00:04:53   Which is an interesting take that I hadn't considered, and I think I kind of like it.

00:04:57   I can see, like, watching, like, a show or something while you're washing dishes or something with the floating window, but it's a podcast.

00:05:02   Like, there's no visual element, so you can just use AirPods.

00:05:06   But, you know, I really thought, like, I wasn't doing that as a joke.

00:05:09   I really thought it would be literally zero.

00:05:11   Apparently, it's at least one.

00:05:13   And that amazes me, but, you know, everyone's got their own things that work for them.

00:05:18   Whatever it takes to get the laundry folded and the dishes washed.

00:05:22   But, I mean, couldn't he literally just put his phone with the speaker on the counter and do the same thing?

00:05:27   There's lots of other options.

00:05:29   We'll put in a link to his toot.

00:05:32   He posted, like, a screenshot.

00:05:35   So you can see what he's experiencing, which is a floating ATP window that's playing audio while he does dishes with the Vision Pro on.

00:05:44   So, you know, well, again, whatever it takes.

00:05:46   I think the thought technology that was new to me was what D. Griffin John said about you can play pause by just, you know, picking up your hands and pinching.

00:05:55   Which, even if you're grabbing the stalk of an AirPod, as I can attest, apparently water damage can occur.

00:06:00   So it is a safer approach, leaving aside the fact that you have a $3,500, you know, thing on your face right above a pile of water.

00:06:09   But we'll ignore that.

00:06:11   Last episode, I had scared Marco by saying, oh, I just rejiggered my desk.

00:06:16   And as it turns out, there was later an issue with Marco's recording, which, with respect, I thought was hilarious.

00:06:22   And I'm very happy it wasn't me.

00:06:23   So I guess it's going to be my turn this time.

00:06:25   But anyways, I briefly mentioned that part of the reason I got this TS5 Plus was because I wanted the 10 gigabit Ethernet.

00:06:33   And it's part of the TS5, specifically the Plus model.

00:06:37   And I had done, as of last episode, which was just a couple of days ago as we sit here,

00:06:41   I had done some performance testing using Samba and using a command line app called iPerf3.

00:06:49   And I had noticed that I was not getting anywhere near a full 10 gigabits a second.

00:06:53   And we had some theories, which I think, knowing what little we knew at the time, were reasonable theories.

00:06:58   Marco had said, hey, you're not going to get that much data off of a spinning disk, especially a 7,200 RPM spinning disk, which is completely fair.

00:07:06   Marco or John, one of you, I don't know which one.

00:07:09   I don't even know who is the opposite, because I don't know who would guess.

00:07:12   It was like four days ago.

00:07:14   Yeah, I know, man.

00:07:15   But a lot has happened since then.

00:07:16   I've been busy.

00:07:17   But one of you said that, oh, it could be CPU problems.

00:07:20   Or excuse me.

00:07:21   Yeah, I think one of you did say CPU problems.

00:07:23   And that's what it was.

00:07:24   Well, I have since found a tutorial, which was probably pointed to me by someone.

00:07:28   But I lost who that somebody was.

00:07:29   I will put a link in the show notes.

00:07:31   But suffice to say, this tutorial talks about how, yes, iPerf3 is often CPU bound.

00:07:36   And the easy fix for this is to just multithread it.

00:07:40   And they provide some examples of how you can do that.

00:07:43   I did that.

00:07:44   And I forgot to capture a screenshot.

00:07:45   But at one point, I was definitely getting like nine and change gigabits per second transfers.

00:07:51   So that is what I wanted to see.

00:07:55   That makes me very happy.

00:07:56   And I can consider this issue solved for now.

00:07:59   John, speaking of things that Marco and I are just deeply concerned about, what's going on with your toaster?

00:08:05   I mentioned I had an error code last episode and called support.

00:08:10   And they said, well, it's working now.

00:08:11   So don't worry about it.

00:08:12   A couple other people wrote in with info about the same error code.

00:08:15   JP Teddy writes, I have the same toaster as you.

00:08:17   And I've owned it for five or six years.

00:08:18   I see the E01 code about twice a year.

00:08:21   I unplug it and plug it back in five minutes later.

00:08:23   In all the other respects, the toaster works flawlessly.

00:08:26   I never bothered to check the manual or call Breville because it doesn't bother me enough.

00:08:30   But maybe I will next time it happens.

00:08:32   So that's not great.

00:08:34   Seems like it's common enough that another person had the problem.

00:08:36   John F. wrote in to say, I get the E01 on my toaster oven maybe once every one to two months.

00:08:41   It pretty much always occurs when using another kitchen appliance on the same circuit, most frequently my espresso machine.

00:08:46   For that appliance, the toaster freaks out just at the moment I turn off the pump after pulling a shot.

00:08:50   I presume the toaster is hypersensitive to disruptions in power, either from brief voltage shifts or possibly noise introduced from the appliances.

00:08:56   My toaster is newer than John's original, but predates the revised plug design.

00:09:00   That sounds even more like mine because I was using the stovetop at the time.

00:09:04   I wasn't using the toaster at all.

00:09:05   I was just sitting there, but maybe it's the computers are more sophisticated and it's cranky about voltage fluctuations.

00:09:10   Unfortunately, unlike things like television or computer, I don't particularly feel comfortable hooking up my toaster to like a UPS or something to smooth out the voltage because that is probably ill-advised.

00:09:21   And I don't have room for it anyway, so at least I have some anecdotal evidence that, you know, voltage fluctuations in my ancient crappy house with a too small power panel may be to blame.

00:09:34   So we'll see.

00:09:35   I will probably like wait a year.

00:09:37   I'll tell you how many times during that year did I see E01 and then plug and unplug it.

00:09:42   So we have one report of, you know, once or twice a year and one report of once every one to two months.

00:09:48   I hope I am in the once or twice a year category, but we'll see.

00:09:50   It would be really funny to get a toaster UPS.

00:09:53   Like it would, you know, to supply enough power, it would have to be a pretty beefy UPS.

00:09:57   Yeah, I think that's not a thing you should do.

00:09:59   I mean, you can.

00:10:00   Like you can get UPS that are rated for, you know, 1500 watts or whatever, you know, like whatever it would be.

00:10:05   Like you can you can totally do that and it would be, you know, as long as it's rated for that much current, it would be fine.

00:10:10   But those just tend to be really big UPS.

00:10:13   Where do you even put it on your counter?

00:10:16   I have to put it in the garage or something like through the wall or, you know, get one of the whole house UPS is or.

00:10:22   Yeah, the whole electrical system in my house needs to be updated, but hopefully that will be somebody else's problem.

00:10:26   We sell this house.

00:10:27   But for now, I'm just going to cruise by on what we have.

00:10:30   Do you have any intention on relocating before both kids are graduated from college?

00:10:35   No.

00:10:35   Do you have any intentions before both of you are retired?

00:10:40   Probably not.

00:10:40   To be clear, you're never allowed to retire because.

00:10:44   I was going to say, he kind of already is retired.

00:10:46   Well, you know, I'm trying to take the happy path, but, you know, Marco's not wrong.

00:10:50   But I don't I don't think that I can handle replacing either of you, really.

00:10:55   So you two are stuck with me forever.

00:10:57   I hate to break it to you.

00:10:58   I'm irreplaceable.

00:10:59   I mean, yeah.

00:11:00   In so many ways, John.

00:11:02   Don't worry about it.

00:11:03   I got, you know, one whole kid to put through college and one one fourth of a kid to put through college.

00:11:09   I'm not going anywhere.

00:11:09   Yeah.

00:11:10   All right.

00:11:11   So you heard it here first.

00:11:12   John has already got one leg out the door.

00:11:14   He's only got four years left.

00:11:15   We need to do a Tim Cook style succession planning.

00:11:17   Oh, gosh.

00:11:18   We need a John Hot spare.

00:11:21   We need to talk about sunscreen and Marco's new thought technology with regard to sunscreen.

00:11:25   Marco, can you summarize for me what your discovery or assertion was last episode with regard to chemical versus physical sunscreen?

00:11:33   And then we'll talk about the feedback we got.

00:11:35   Yes.

00:11:35   My I quickly gone through the difference between chemical and physical and mineral sunscreen.

00:11:39   And I had summarized it basically as saying chemical sunscreens have chemicals that absorb into your skin and they absorb UV rays, whereas mineral sunscreens use like fine metallic dust to reflect the sunlight off of the top of your skin.

00:11:55   That's what I had said, which apparently is wrong.

00:11:57   Prodan Stetev writes or points us to a academic research paper, Improving Patient Communication on Sunscreen Choice, Updating Mechanistic Misconceptions.

00:12:09   And I don't know.

00:12:12   Was this John?

00:12:12   Was this from Prodan or was this from the academic paper?

00:12:15   No, this is from this is from all from the linked article.

00:12:17   Linked article is actually a letter to the editor of like some journal, but we'll put a link in the show notes to this letter to the editor from like five different authors.

00:12:24   The main point is that this letter cites academic papers, which are all linked from the document with the weird doi.org thing.

00:12:32   So if you want to see all the papers that are backing this, it's not just a crank writing in saying they have an idea.

00:12:37   This is someone citing a bunch of studies.

00:12:39   All right.

00:12:39   Thank you for the clarification.

00:12:40   So from that letter, many assume that chemical sunscreens absorb UV light and convert the energy to heat, while physical sunscreens such as zinc oxide and titanium dioxide reflect and scatter UV light.

00:12:52   However, this mechanism is at best a historic artifact from when physical sunscreen particle sizes were quite large, though such non micronized and non nanoparticulate physical sunscreens may have had a greater proportion of its perfected protective mechanism from reflection and scatter in the past.

00:13:08   These formulations have largely been abandoned for more commercially viable options with the advent of micronization.

00:13:15   I think I got that right.

00:13:16   Micronization technologies.

00:13:17   Furthermore, even micro sized physical sunscreen formulations have been increasingly replaced by nanoparticle formulations.

00:13:24   It is important for dermatologists to recognize that the primary mechanism of action for modern physical sunscreen agents is the very same protective mechanism of chemical sunscreens absorption of UV light.

00:13:34   It was recently found that modern particulate sized physical zinc oxide and titanium oxide reflected less than 5% of incoming UV light on average.

00:13:41   Rather than relying on reflection and scatter, the overwhelming majority of the attributable protective effect of zinc oxide and titanium dioxide is by UV light absorption, which excites electrons from the valence band to the higher energy conductance band.

00:13:56   This energy is later primarily dissipated as heat in a manner analogous to chemical sunscreen UV light absorption.

00:14:02   This is another one of those things that's like was probably true at one point, but technology marches on and it sounds like they're making the stuff, the like the metal oxides and stuff smaller and smaller in the sunscreen because that makes for a better product like it's smoother and we we have the technology to make it smaller.

00:14:19   And apparently once you make them that small, probably given the wavelength of UV light or whatever, there's been a bunch of new studies that have shown actually it's not really reflecting that much anymore.

00:14:27   It's mostly, you know, its effect is because of this absorption effect.

00:14:32   And there's a bunch of papers about that and the papers seem somewhat contentious.

00:14:36   So this may be sort of the cutting edge of research, although this is again, this is a letter from 2023.

00:14:40   But just to clarify from last week, apparently it's not as cut and dried as it used to be.

00:14:45   And, you know, technology marches on.

00:14:48   With regard to Apple security for unreleased devices and the suing of John Prosser because of the leak of the liquid metal design scheme.

00:14:57   And an anonymous person writes Apple employees with pre-release iPhone hardware can or could when I was there expense an Apple approved gun safe to store the phone in and then they are required to store the device in such a safe for not carrying it.

00:15:08   This is a relaxation of the older rules requiring you to be accompanied by a, quote, physical security expert, quote, from Apple while taking unreleased hardware out of Apple secure areas.

00:15:19   Or maybe two of them, two of the experts.

00:15:20   I kind of love the idea that, like, your phone would have a bodyguard.

00:15:23   That's kind of amazing.

00:15:24   Yeah, they're not guarding you.

00:15:25   You can get run over by a car.

00:15:26   They don't care.

00:15:27   They're just guarding the phone.

00:15:28   Well, what they'll do is they'll let you get run over by the car and then snatch up the phone as quickly as possible.

00:15:32   Yeah.

00:15:32   Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:34   All right.

00:15:34   With regard to the low cost Apple laptops, Jason Anthony Guy writes,

00:15:38   I don't I don't think I want to read this because I know at least a handful of people from Apple listen to this program and I don't want to give them ideas.

00:15:44   All right.

00:15:45   Fine.

00:15:45   I'll read it.

00:15:46   Jason Anthony Guy writes,

00:15:48   Here's one more option for cost savings on the rumored low cost Apple laptop.

00:15:51   Ads on the boot, login and wake screens and for good measure, the screensaver.

00:15:54   Coming soon.

00:15:55   Apple MacBook, paren, fall 2025, comma, with ads, paren, with a $150 option to remove them.

00:16:01   If you're not familiar with this whole shtick, Kindles, Amazon Kindles are sold as a version with ads or a version without ads.

00:16:09   Oh, no, they don't come with ads, Casey.

00:16:10   They come with special offers.

00:16:12   Oh, sorry.

00:16:13   My mistake.

00:16:13   I am so sorry.

00:16:15   Special offers.

00:16:16   So this is a funny joke.

00:16:17   Like we didn't mention it and like, how can they take money out of laptops?

00:16:20   We didn't mention it for two main reasons.

00:16:23   I feel like one is that, you know, and we say this every time we talk about the potential of Apple doing ads and stuff.

00:16:30   Currently, that's not how Apple makes its money.

00:16:33   So we're not saying that Apple is like wonderful and magnanimous.

00:16:35   It's just it doesn't.

00:16:36   They're not incentivized to do that because that's not a big income scream stream for them.

00:16:41   Yes, they have at various time done ads and they still do have like search ads and everything like that.

00:16:46   But the majority of their money comes from other things, even though they don't break down the services revenue, that the parts that we did see the breakdown like during court cases did not lead us to believe that ads are a massive portion of that.

00:16:56   But two, and perhaps more importantly, when Apple has done ads, they're so bad at it, just really bad at it.

00:17:03   Like, are they bad at it because institutionally they kind of like don't want to do ads?

00:17:07   Are they bad at it because people who are really good at doing ads wouldn't go to work at Apple?

00:17:11   I don't know the reason, but they're not good at ads.

00:17:15   And so it's not really a fear for me that that's going to be their go to strategy to extract money for to produce a low cost laptop.

00:17:24   I hope it's because they also would be repelled by the tastelessness of it.

00:17:28   I do see a lot of complaints in the Windows world about the prevalence of ads within the Windows interface.

00:17:33   And yes, we complain about Apple advertising its stuff to us all over its own things.

00:17:37   But if I see like a Geico ad in system settings, that's a whole other line that has been crossed.

00:17:43   So I, you know, this is this is a joke and I get it hard.

00:17:46   But I also think Apple is not really into ads as a main revenue stream and they're really bad at it.

00:17:53   So both of those things I hope will combine to make this continue to be just a joke and not a reality.

00:17:58   I agree that there is a line between what they do now with like promoting Apple Music, Apple Pay, you know, all the like all the different things.

00:18:08   That's one movie.

00:18:08   Yeah.

00:18:09   I mean, that's that's a different section.

00:18:11   But I'm saying like, you know, it's all in the Apple family.

00:18:14   I know, but like but in in the settings and as as like, you know, splash modal screens in their own apps like the music app, like they do heavily have advertisements for their own upsells in those apps.

00:18:26   And they're very, you know, they work like any other ad.

00:18:29   Like I don't think we can call them anything but ads when they when they have like, you know, the badge on the settings app and you go in and it's like you should add Apple care today, you know, or like the full screen modal and music saying you should really subscribe to Apple music.

00:18:43   Like those are just ads for Apple stuff.

00:18:45   Like they're definitely ads.

00:18:46   There's no getting around it.

00:18:47   There is a line between that and a Geico ad in settings.

00:18:52   But I think you might think that line is is a bigger gap than I do.

00:18:57   I don't think that's that far from what they already do.

00:18:59   Well, the difference is they have to sell the ad to Geico.

00:19:02   They don't have to sell it to Apple.

00:19:03   Apple just gets that ad for free.

00:19:04   You know what I mean?

00:19:04   Like the ad sales, the whole mechanism of selling ads, right?

00:19:09   That Apple, I mean, when you sell ads, just look at the people who are the best in the world.

00:19:13   about selling ads.

00:19:13   It really helps to have a lot of information to sell those ads against so you can target them.

00:19:18   And Apple currently doesn't have that information and doesn't seem to want to collect it.

00:19:21   And also, I think they're bad at selling ads and they're also bad at serving ads like where they do sell ads like the app store search ads.

00:19:28   They sell those, but like that's nothing compared to like selling ads for app installs through Facebook or whatever.

00:19:34   It's just so much less sophisticated.

00:19:36   So, you know, this that's where you get into their they're bad at it.

00:19:39   Like I don't think they have the expertise or knowledge on how to sell ads.

00:19:43   It's not so much about presenting them.

00:19:44   They can put ads wherever they want.

00:19:46   I'm sure someone is willing to put them, but to put them there, you got to sell them first.

00:19:49   That's true.

00:19:51   All right.

00:19:51   So continuing my AirPods, not saga, that's a bit dramatic, but my AirPods story, a few people had written in saying, hey, you know, you need to do either an online chat or, you know, talk to them on the phone.

00:20:04   And I didn't understand how you could get to this phantom online chat.

00:20:09   Well, Patch writes in, you can always talk to Apple support without going through any kind of menu or tree by using their iMessage business account.

00:20:15   Okay, great.

00:20:16   Well, how do you get that?

00:20:17   Patch writes, if you type a message there within two or three minutes, they'll connect you with the customer service person.

00:20:21   That sounds awesome.

00:20:21   Well, how do you do that?

00:20:22   Well, Patch says, it looks like there are two main ways to get to this chat function.

00:20:26   The first is the Apple support app on iOS or iPadOS.

00:20:28   The chat option there takes you to iMessage.

00:20:31   The second way is if you do a search for any Apple store using Apple Maps specifically.

00:20:36   In the three-dot menu, there is an option to message them, which pulls you to an iMessage chat, both on iOS and macOS.

00:20:42   This is incredibly useful.

00:20:44   So thank you, Patch.

00:20:45   You get plus one internet points for the day.

00:20:47   I've run across that chat thing several times, but it's not entirely out of as where to find it.

00:20:52   But, you know, I guess if you're going down one of those avenues, like if you're looking for a store only with the Apple Maps app, or if you're in the support app, supposedly it will land in your face.

00:21:00   But it's good to know how to get there directly.

00:21:01   All right.

00:21:02   With regard to Cloudflare and AI crawlers, Thomas Shofflin writes,

00:21:07   I definitely don't want to do something to limit user access to the website and the user contributed content, but I had to take action to prevent our CDN bill from being hundreds of dollars higher each month than it was a year ago.

00:21:25   Cloudflare's AI bot detection and blocking has been a massive help in that.

00:21:28   Yeah, so this is something that sort of went unsaid, like why would Cloudflare even have a thing to block AI crawlers?

00:21:33   What's the issue they're trying to solve?

00:21:35   What concern do website owners have?

00:21:37   Why are they trying to block AI crawlers?

00:21:39   So that was our bad.

00:21:40   We should have mentioned that.

00:21:41   But the underlying assumption was you'd want to block AI crawlers because AI crawlers are badly behaved and are costing people money.

00:21:48   And so here's yet more evidence of that.

00:21:51   So this is like the small version of like, I've got a small website and they're costing me hundreds of dollars, which for my small website is significant.

00:21:59   Aaron Zink writes, I'm a consultant who works with many large organizations and government websites.

00:22:03   We've seen unprecedented levels of bot crawling across all of our sites.

00:22:06   These are aggressive bots that bring our sites to their knees despite us using caching.

00:22:11   Any site that has dynamic functionality is particularly vulnerable to the problem because there are nearly infinite combinations of parameters and settings that users can choose.

00:22:19   So caching is little to no benefit when a bot decides to go deep exploring every possible combination.

00:22:23   Some of the bots we've been seeing have been extremely tricky to identify.

00:22:27   In these cases, Cloudflare has been our most effective tool by far.

00:22:30   Their proprietary heuristics have been the only things that have enabled us to keep our sites online.

00:22:36   The real bad guy here, my opinion, is not Cloudflare, but the aggressive AI companies who are sending DDoS levels of traffic don't honor robots.txt files and make it nearly impossible to identify and block them selectively.

00:22:47   I want to reiterate again, the recent traffic levels have been truly historic.

00:22:51   Additionally, Anonymous writes, when I worked at GitHub, one of the biggest technical challenges we had was the explosive growth of AI crawlers.

00:22:57   Over the course of about six months, we saw traffic increase by about 40% due to AI scrapers.

00:23:02   This has regularly threatened to take the site down.

00:23:04   Intuitively, you'd think it would be a few companies doing this sort of scraping, but it's effectively every AI startup plus everyone that wants to sell data sets to them.

00:23:11   Detecting AI crawlers is incredibly difficult.

00:23:13   They source traffic from hundreds of thousands of IP addresses, and they are generally smart enough to avoid being blocked with approaches like the JA3 or JA4 signatures.

00:23:20   John, what the heck does that mean?

00:23:21   I had to look it up, but it was on the Cloudflare side.

00:23:24   In fact, we'll link to the definition.

00:23:25   It's fingerprints that help you profile specific SSL slash TLS clients across different destinations, IPs, ports, and X509 certificates.

00:23:32   I mean, that doesn't really tell you much, but anyway, it's a way to try to identify bots, even if they don't all come from the same IP address or whatever.

00:23:40   I'm not quite sure how it works, but that's why we'll link to the website if you want to look it up.

00:23:44   But the point is, those techniques don't work with the diversity of sources that the AI crawlers are using, apparently.

00:23:50   Continuing from Anonymous, they're buying proxy services from companies like IP Royal, Bright Data, etc.

00:23:55   These companies source the traffic from real residential IP addresses.

00:23:58   Sometimes they're paying end users to install what is effectively malware, and sometimes it's sketchier than that.

00:24:03   Because of this, the AI crawlers in many cases do look like legitimate user traffic.

00:24:07   Cloudflare has a huge advantage over most smaller players like GitHub, precisely because so much of this traffic goes through them.

00:24:12   They can afford to invest compute resources and brain power into identifying and tracking these crawlers.

00:24:17   This has been the story for a while now, and I was glad to hear some explanation.

00:24:20   First of all, characterizing GitHub as a small player lets you know the scale of this problem.

00:24:25   Because, you know, compared to that first person with their personal website or whatever, down to GitHub, it's like, we're just a small player.

00:24:31   We need Cloudflare to help out.

00:24:33   But it's something that we're not used to, because you're like, well, what's the big deal?

00:24:36   People have been crawling the web since the advent of the web.

00:24:39   Why is there such a problem with the AI things?

00:24:41   And I, you know, according to this anonymous person at GitHub, part of it is basically the fact that, you know, pretty rapidly after the advent of Google, it extinguished all the other big search engines.

00:24:53   And so you just had the Googlebot crawling the web.

00:24:57   There is no such monopoly in AI.

00:24:59   And it's every AI startup.

00:25:01   It's all the big AI companies.

00:25:05   It's just this, it's there's, it's the web at scale.

00:25:12   But imagine if there was 100 Googles crawling, and that, you know, it's, it's in their interest as the crawlers to crawl as much as fast as possible to get the biggest data set to make the most money, so on and so forth, multiplied by 100 of those things.

00:25:25   Everyone who runs a website that is worth crawling is seeing a huge burden from these AI crawlers.

00:25:31   They don't care about robots that tax, which maybe arguably maybe they shouldn't, maybe they should, but whatever.

00:25:35   They don't.

00:25:36   Because robots that tax is entirely advisory.

00:25:38   It's like, please don't crawl me.

00:25:39   You can just ignore it and crawl anyway.

00:25:40   And they're costing people money, and they're taking down sites because they don't care how fast they go, and they're not throttled.

00:25:46   And this is all just a side effect of, you know, a new influx of venture capital money in an industry that is exploding, where the incentives are to grow as fast as possible.

00:25:57   And no one cares how much damage it's doing to the websites that they're constantly trying to crawl.

00:26:03   So, yeah, that's why blocking AI bots specifically is a feature that, you know, people who run websites would want and see past discussion, last episode's discussion about the difficult situation that puts us all in if one company has the ability to control that spigot.

00:26:20   What, you know, what we're seeing here is like, yes, there are reasons why Cloudflare is useful to website owners right now.

00:26:28   That doesn't mean this isn't a really problematic situation to have that much centralized power in one company over that much of the internet, and they can just change the way things work on a whim.

00:26:40   And so, you know, while there might be decent reasons behind some of this stuff, it doesn't actually fix the problem.

00:26:47   Like, the problem is still that most, you know, smaller companies and DIY projects and things like that just won't be able to crawl pages on the web anymore, you know, before too long.

00:26:58   And that's not a great place to be.

00:27:00   Yeah, because, like, if you're running a site, like, you need your site to, like, stay up and not have your bandwidth bill double because of non-human traffic that's not giving you anything.

00:27:10   So, that's your main concern, and the email that you're getting from 20 people with their dinky websites is so much lower level concern for you just keeping your stuff online.

00:27:18   So, you can see where, you know, it's like things are on fire here.

00:27:23   And also, as with so many things with AI, this leads to sort of thoughts about sustainability.

00:27:28   It's like, can the web withstand an arbitrary number of AI crawlers constantly crawling?

00:27:35   Like, it's kind of like email and spam.

00:27:37   Like, how sustainable is it when, you know, 10% of email is spam, 50%, 90%, 99%.

00:27:43   How many nines percent of email can be spammed before the email system falls down?

00:27:47   Like, we've kind of run that experiment, and it's got the percentage of spam has got frighteningly high.

00:27:51   Well, what percentage of traffic on the web can be AI crawlers before it becomes economically unfeasible to run websites because you're not actually running them for humans.

00:28:02   You're just running them for AI crawlers that are extracting value from your site and never sending anything back.

00:28:06   And this is just another version of the same, you know, well, they're taking my content and not sending any people to my site, and I don't want to give them rights to my content.

00:28:13   It's another sustainability thing of, like, how are we going to work this out?

00:28:16   We need a system where people are still incentivized to make things and publish them, because if not, all those AI crawlers are going to run out of stuff to crawl.

00:28:27   Like, they, you know, it's the goose that lays the golden egg.

00:28:31   Once you eat the goose, you've got a problem.

00:28:33   Yeah.

00:28:35   All right, public service announcement.

00:28:36   As of, I believe, today as we record this, the 26 betas, the iOS 26, iPadOS 26, et cetera, are all out and available.

00:28:46   You can go to beta.apple.com if you want to go on that crazy ride.

00:28:50   For what it's worth, I am still not running anything on my carry phone.

00:28:55   I heard the most recent under the radar where you were encouraging people to do that, and I largely agree with you, but we have a couple of pieces of travel coming up that I really do not want to mess with having a beta on my phone, which I know professionally is a little questionable, but personally, I think is a very sound decision.

00:29:12   So, I don't know, Marco, if you would recommend for non-developers to put the beta on their phones, but now would be the time to try to wave people off if that's the case.

00:29:23   I think, you know, what you're doing with signing up for the beta, you know, like in any year, what you're signing up for is some stuff that works now might not work.

00:29:34   And stepping back from the beta is possible, but it requires basically, you know, a reformat of your phone, and you can't just migrate everything back from your current installation to it.

00:29:45   So, going back from a beta is such a high pain in the butt for most people that unless you have a second device, you're probably not going back.

00:29:53   It's probably like a one-way door for you.

00:29:55   So, it's not advisable if you don't have a really good reason.

00:30:00   What qualifies as a really good reason, that's kind of up for interpretation.

00:30:04   And, you know, what I was saying under the radar is, like, anybody who's a developer or a designer responsible for the design of an app on iOS should definitely have the beta installed on their carry phone now.

00:30:14   Because there is a lot that you kind of have to live with, with the new design, to get a feel for what your app, how your app should be designed.

00:30:24   And that, of course, assumes that the new design is a fixed target, which it is not.

00:30:30   So, it's not a great beta season, but it is one that if you have any tolerance for beta problems, you should get in it now, if you aren't already in it.

00:30:41   Because it is very illuminating, especially, again, if you are a developer, it is very helpful.

00:30:46   And the more people use it, the more problems that will be found, and the more noise will be made about them.

00:30:57   And if we have any chance of Apple sanding off some of the rough edges, or fixing some of the bugs, we're going to need as many people as possible.

00:31:04   It's simple as that.

00:31:05   I will say, you know, as betas go, we are now on beta 4.

00:31:11   In most years, beta 4 is a reasonably stable time to jump in.

00:31:15   That is true this year, but beta 4 is more like a beta 2 or a beta 3 of most years.

00:31:23   They are behind in quality.

00:31:25   You do still have weird bugs all over the place in apps.

00:31:29   You do still have significant rendering and animation glitches all over the UI, all over the system.

00:31:36   Now, stuff does actually end up working most of the time.

00:31:40   I'm no longer having to do things like reboot my phone to connect to my AirPods, or force quit apps in the middle of typing a text message because the keyboard crashes.

00:31:49   Like, that has been mostly fixed in the recent two betas.

00:31:53   So, you know, the really big bugs are gone, but there's tons of visual glitches all over the place.

00:32:00   And that's not even counting, like, the design itself being pretty controversial and rough in a lot of places.

00:32:06   But there are still tons of animation bugs, tons of little glitches, occasional layout bugs that do require, you know, apps to be force quit or something.

00:32:13   But at least, you know, you can generally not lose data most of the time anymore.

00:32:18   So, it's rough performance-wise.

00:32:21   Battery life isn't too bad anymore, but it still chugs.

00:32:25   You still have a lot of dropped frames.

00:32:27   You have a lot of glitchy and dropped animations.

00:32:31   You have, like, I, frankly, I don't know how Apple is going to land this plane by early September.

00:32:39   I think it's going to be a really rough release in terms of just a huge number of mostly tiny bugs.

00:32:48   everywhere, especially animation and layout bugs.

00:32:51   So, if you can tolerate that and you want to see the new design and you want to experience it, jump in.

00:32:56   It's, you're probably not going to lose data or things like that anymore.

00:33:00   Like, that's, those, those times are past us, probably.

00:33:03   But it is, it is rough.

00:33:06   And, by the way, and I'm saying, it's chugging along, it's slow, it drops frames.

00:33:10   I have an iPhone 16 Pro.

00:33:12   So, if you have an older device that you were going to maybe think about testing this on,

00:33:17   I would maybe think again.

00:33:18   And I, and I think, and I'll say, I'll say it now.

00:33:21   My prediction for the fall.

00:33:23   People around our circles are saying, like, users are going to, you know, hate this design

00:33:28   or it's going to be really controversial.

00:33:30   I think we're not going to hear too much about that from non-nerds.

00:33:34   What we will hear about is how incredibly slow it is.

00:33:38   If you recall, that was one of the big criticisms of iOS 7 is, I put this on my iPhone and now it is much slower.

00:33:47   This is going to be one of those years.

00:33:49   Literally, if we're already in beta 4 and their current fastest phone available can't run the animation smoothly, you know we're in for a rough time in that front.

00:34:00   So, keep that in mind as well.

00:34:02   It will probably be fine.

00:34:03   And if you do, if you are really curious about the new design everywhere or if you are responsible for software design of an iOS app, you really should jump in now.

00:34:13   All right, John, tell me about Tahoe beta 4 specifically, please.

00:34:17   Yeah, just a couple of quick hits from this before we go into our first topic, which is tied to this.

00:34:22   When beta 4 came out, you know, the only beta still I'm running is macOS, but I'm running it a lot to test my apps and stuff.

00:34:28   Waiting oh so patiently for Apple to fix some of the bugs, one of which is a showstopper for me, which actually has been fixed, but it isn't out on beta 4 yet.

00:34:38   Anyway, just wandering through the OS because I'm living in it and one of the things that you do when you're living in the OS and booting from your internal to your external drive and stuff is you're changing the startup disk.

00:34:48   And I happened upon the startup disk screen in system settings and was struck by the fact that I'm not sure if it's a backslide from beta 4, although some things are, especially in iOS and other betas that I'm not running.

00:35:03   But I was struck by the fact that this system setting screen seems to be part of some sort of contest within Apple to figure out how low contrast can we make something while it's still technically selected.

00:35:16   So it shows two disks, a Tahoe disk and then my other disk.

00:35:20   And they're huge.

00:35:21   They're really big.

00:35:22   They're like 64 by 64 icons, maybe even bigger with a big rectangle.

00:35:26   There's text underneath it with a big rectangle around it and the selected one has a background and the non-selected one does not.

00:35:33   But man, is that background hard to see.

00:35:35   So I posted it on Mastodon.

00:35:37   After I posted it, I did some investigation to see just how slight is the highlight in that rounded rectangle highlight.

00:35:48   So here's the thing, the rounded rectile highlight, which is big, it's like one inch by two inches on your screen.

00:35:54   It's big.

00:35:55   Okay.

00:35:55   This is not a subtle highlight.

00:35:56   It's a big rectangle.

00:35:58   It has a darker rim and a body color to it.

00:36:02   And then, of course, there's the window background.

00:36:06   The background of the selection is 1.6% darker than the window background.

00:36:11   That's not enough context.

00:36:14   Hold on a second.

00:36:14   Hold on a second.

00:36:15   I love that you did this research and this math.

00:36:18   This is one of those moments that you being independent is such a perk for the show.

00:36:23   And I mean that genuinely.

00:36:24   How did you come to this conclusion?

00:36:26   I'm not arguing.

00:36:27   I'm genuinely wondering.

00:36:28   How did you determine this?

00:36:29   What was the process to figure this out?

00:36:30   I mean, so I took the screenshot in Tahoe.

00:36:32   So I figure, like, whatever they're doing with the screenshot, I'm going to trust the color values.

00:36:36   And then I just pulled it up in Photoshop and then just got the RGB values.

00:36:39   So the RGB values are 0 to 255 for the R, the G, and the B, the red, the green, and the blue.

00:36:44   It's a gray color.

00:36:45   So the red, the green, and the blue are all equal values.

00:36:48   The background is 251, and the selection is 247.

00:36:51   So it's a difference of four, which is about 1.57%.

00:36:56   The rim is 3.5% darker.

00:36:59   So I think the only reason a lot of people can see the rounded rectangle is because the

00:37:03   rim is 3.5% darker.

00:37:05   This is one of those, you know, I put, I put it on Mastodon, uh, both as a joke and not as

00:37:09   a joke.

00:37:10   Many people said, I cannot see the selection on my screen because my screen is a crappy

00:37:13   quality, you know, older display or something like that.

00:37:16   It's ridiculous.

00:37:17   Now here's the thing.

00:37:18   Startup disk system setting in Sequoia also doesn't have a lot of contrast, but it's still

00:37:25   twice what Tahoe is.

00:37:27   So on Sequoia, it's 3.1% for the body and 7% for the rim.

00:37:31   Uh, it was already bad.

00:37:33   So I'm not saying like Tahoe made this mistake or whatever.

00:37:35   Why I find this baffling is because as far as I can tell, it's not like they redesigned

00:37:39   the startup disk system setting in Tahoe.

00:37:41   Just something about Tahoe came by and sideswiped the already bad startup disk thing to make the

00:37:49   contrast half as much as it used to be.

00:37:52   And when I posted this on Mastodon, many people said, until I read your text, I didn't

00:37:56   know what you were talking about because I couldn't see a selection at all.

00:37:58   It's, I mean, again, there is a increased contrast option and accessibility, but this is a perfect

00:38:04   example of like, well, it's example of two things.

00:38:06   One that this, it needs to be higher contrast, even when that setting is not turned on because

00:38:11   it is, it's ridiculous, right?

00:38:12   Uh, even on a really high quality screen.

00:38:14   And two, what Marco just said, do you think anyone has time to worry about the contrast

00:38:19   of the highlight and the startup disk system setting when they're trying to get the OS

00:38:22   to just work and have the animations run at the right speed?

00:38:24   That said, God, this is Mac OS.

00:38:26   They don't care that much about it anyway.

00:38:27   So I'm really concerned that stuff like this is just forget about this being fixed or changed

00:38:34   or improved in any way before this thing releases, because it's, they have so much bigger fish

00:38:38   to fry.

00:38:39   Um, so this is just a little thing, but I just thought I'd point it out because I just

00:38:42   found it absurd.

00:38:42   I, I encourage you to look at the images that we will link in the show notes, um, and see

00:38:48   for yourself, if on your screen, you can see that it's highlighted.

00:38:50   You're going in knowing one of them is highlighted and one of them is not.

00:38:53   I'm telling you that that's the case and still you may not be able to see it depending on your

00:38:57   monitor.

00:38:57   Yeah, it's not great.

00:38:59   It's amazing.

00:39:01   Like I, and so what has probably happened here is, you know, the, the Mac APIs and the iOS

00:39:08   APIs, um, they have kind of semantic color values.

00:39:12   So like not every color is specified.

00:39:14   Okay.

00:39:15   It's R this G this B this most colors in the UI, especially in Apple's apps, presumably are

00:39:20   specified by colors like background one, background two, like that kind of thing.

00:39:24   Um, and at, or like, you know, light background, lighter background.

00:39:28   Do you have the thing on, uh, on iOS, the constants on Mac OS are called primary, secondary,

00:39:32   tertiary and quaternary.

00:39:34   Like they, they use the, whatever.

00:39:36   We do have those as well.

00:39:37   Yeah.

00:39:37   And so that's, and that's kind of, that's, that's like the newer Swift UI way of doing

00:39:41   it.

00:39:41   Um, so, so basically like, you know, the, the colors, the colors are not specified on everything

00:39:46   by color value.

00:39:47   They're specified semantically in a lot of things.

00:39:49   So what Apple has done with the redesign is change a lot of what those colors mean.

00:39:54   So they can change that like in one place in some system definition of that.

00:39:58   And then all the other apps that compile against that will have their colors changed.

00:40:03   And what John was just saying is like, they're not going to have time to go through every single

00:40:07   place.

00:40:07   Those are used and see like, is this still legible?

00:40:10   Is this still usable?

00:40:12   Does this still even look right?

00:40:13   Or does it look like a rendering error?

00:40:14   Or like, I mean, what they could do is perhaps say, Hey, does primary on top of secondary,

00:40:20   is that readable?

00:40:22   It's the Delta between prime.

00:40:23   Because think of it like the contest thing.

00:40:25   If there was a contest to do this, given just plain RGB values, integer RGB values, let's

00:40:31   set aside floating point.

00:40:32   The only way you can win this contest is by having a difference of one.

00:40:35   So you could have 251 and 252.

00:40:38   If you can't do fractions, that's the close, that's as close as you can get.

00:40:41   RGB 251, 251, 251, and then 252.

00:40:45   That's, it's one away, uh, unless you go into floating point values.

00:40:48   And I guess, I guess you could do opacity tricks, which is floating point as well.

00:40:51   But like, you're really getting up to like, seriously, it's either the same color or it's

00:40:56   not.

00:40:56   It's, you know, how close can we get to the same color without it being the same color?

00:40:59   And if you have two constants, whether it's the primary, secondary, tertiary, or like window

00:41:03   background, light, lighter, lightest, whatever, like whatever sequence of constant names that

00:41:08   you have, the distance between one constant name and the other that you expect to be next

00:41:13   to each other should probably be discernible.

00:41:15   So there should be some kind of like acceptance test to say, Hey, if you're going through the

00:41:19   U S and changing all these colors, make sure you change them in a way that two colors, that

00:41:23   the two of the colors aren't like literally the same when they're supposed to be used on

00:41:26   top of each other.

00:41:26   This is all setting aside whether the fact that the startup system setting uses these colors

00:41:31   at all, because for all we know, the person who programmed this 55 years ago, uh, just did

00:41:35   RGB values because they felt like it, or just did opacity, like a, a, a black with an opacity

00:41:40   of 0.001, like who knows what the code does.

00:41:42   It could be anything.

00:41:44   Again, this is not a highly trafficked, highly revised area of the OS.

00:41:48   Keep in mind, like the scale of what we're dealing with here, you know, when iOS seven

00:41:53   was released, I mean, that was a hundred years ago, everything was less, everything was smaller.

00:41:59   There were fewer platforms.

00:42:01   There were fewer apps on those platforms.

00:42:03   The apps themselves had less code and fewer screens and fewer features and less UI.

00:42:08   It was a long time ago.

00:42:10   Now, the number of like possible areas that changing these system constants and metrics

00:42:17   and things, the number of areas those affect is huge.

00:42:21   Now there's so much surface area to test and to revise and to fix.

00:42:25   And that, like, that's why I was saying, you know, a couple of months ago when, when there

00:42:29   were rumors of a big redesign coming, that's why I was saying it's a really big deal because

00:42:32   it touches everything.

00:42:34   And what we're going to see for a year, maybe at least, maybe two years, we're going

00:42:41   to keep finding little edges of the UI or, or the, or screens of apps.

00:42:46   Oh, that button is now an ellipsis because the text is being cut off because the metrics

00:42:50   changed or, oh, this, this button over here that used to be like, you know, a contrast button

00:42:55   that you could see now it's gray on gray on gray because those colors changed.

00:43:00   We're going to have a year or two of that across not only the OSs and Apple's apps, but

00:43:05   then across third party apps.

00:43:07   Because like when third party apps compile against the new API, there is a flag that you can opt

00:43:13   out of the entire new design.

00:43:15   You can put it in your, in your info P list.

00:43:17   And I think a lot of apps are going to do that for a while.

00:43:19   But if you want any of the new design, you have to take all of the new design.

00:43:22   And so as soon as you want any of the new design, all of these like little subtle constants

00:43:28   and metrics in the APIs will change across your entire app.

00:43:32   And so you have to go through every single screen and retest everything and fix it in

00:43:38   a way that's not going to mess up your iOS 18 and earlier compatibility as well.

00:43:43   If you're, if you're still maintaining that compatibility.

00:43:44   So like the, the workload for both Apple and its apps and for third party developers is massive.

00:43:51   And you, you just can't do this in a summer.

00:43:53   Like I, I kind of, I mean, I, I kind of, I don't, I hate to go here, but I, I kind of

00:43:58   feel like the design team is doging through the system here, just ripping stuff out and just

00:44:03   rushing to change things that have huge effects that they either don't fully appreciate or

00:44:10   maybe are just disregarding.

00:44:11   whatever, whatever their reasons are thinking behind it, it takes a lot of time to adapt

00:44:19   the software to the changes they're making.

00:44:21   And I think it takes way more time than they have.

00:44:24   So that's why I think it's just going to be a year of UI bugs everywhere across everyone's

00:44:29   apps.

00:44:30   And speaking of the contrast, uh, one of the changes that I had to do to switch glass,

00:44:35   I have a thing in my appearance setting that lets you pick where the palettes are on the

00:44:39   screen and it shows a little rectangle that's supposed to represent your screen with, uh, radio

00:44:43   buttons and the, the cardinal directions, top, bottom, left, right, upper, right, upper left,

00:44:47   so on and so forth.

00:44:48   Uh, and it shows a desktop background and it's, it's hard to believe for as such an old school

00:44:54   Mac user, but the idea of having a desktop background image and then putting a radio button

00:45:00   on top of that image, it seems like you should always be able to see the radio button because

00:45:05   radio buttons are circle and they have an outline and inside them is a dot.

00:45:09   Like how could, how could a radio button not be visible?

00:45:13   It's like they used to be opaque, right?

00:45:15   It was an opaque circle.

00:45:16   So I don't care what the background is.

00:45:18   I don't care what desktop background you have.

00:45:19   When I put a radio button control on top of your desktop background image, you should still

00:45:24   be able to see the radio button, right?

00:45:26   And that was true right up to Tahoe.

00:45:28   If you put a Tahoe radio button on top of lots of different kinds of desktop backgrounds,

00:45:32   it is basically invisible, basically like this highlight color that you see here.

00:45:35   So I, I had to, I had to like literally draw a circle.

00:45:38   Like I'm drawing a custom drawing of a opaque circle around the radio button when it's not

00:45:43   selected to say, here's the radio button because Apple's own controls are not visible on many

00:45:49   different, even just like solid color backgrounds.

00:45:51   Forget about cool patterns and stuff like that.

00:45:53   That's the type of attention that needs to be done to every single screen to say, are

00:45:58   the controls still visible?

00:45:59   You mentioned it again with a button.

00:46:00   I bet there's a lot of screens that are going to come up even during the setup process.

00:46:03   People are going to be like, how do I keep going in this process?

00:46:05   Is that word a button?

00:46:06   It's kind of like iOS seven all over again, only instead of not drawing the borders around

00:46:10   the buttons, they're trying to draw the borders around the buttons.

00:46:13   They're just so low contrast.

00:46:14   You can't see them.

00:46:15   All right.

00:46:16   And in our final piece of follow-up for tonight, Apple intelligence news summaries are back,

00:46:20   baby, with a big red disclaimer that reads, summarization may change the meaning of the

00:46:25   original headlines, verify information.

00:46:26   Reading from Ars Technica, Apple intelligence notification summaries for news apps are back

00:46:32   in Tahoe Beta 4.

00:46:33   Upon installing the new update, users of Apple intelligence compatible devices will be asked

00:46:38   to enable or disable three broad categories of notifications.

00:46:40   Those for news and entertainment apps, for communication and social apps, and for all other apps.

00:46:45   The operating systems will list sample apps based on what you currently have installed

00:46:48   in your device.

00:46:49   Apple disabled news notification summaries as part of the iOS 18.3 update in January.

00:46:54   Incorrect summaries circulating on social media prompted news organizations to complain to

00:46:57   Apple, particularly after one summary said that Luigi Mangione, the alleged murder of United

00:47:03   Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, had died by suicide.

00:47:05   He had not and has not.

00:47:07   Yeah.

00:47:08   So this screen is interesting because that red text that you read, it says summarization may

00:47:11   change the meaning of original headlines, verify information.

00:47:15   That only appears on the news and entertainment one.

00:47:18   The communication and social and all other apps don't have that warning.

00:47:21   So this is, you know, again, when Apple disabled this feature because people were complaining,

00:47:26   you know, it's like, as I said at the time, the reason they disabled is because they can't

00:47:31   fix it.

00:47:31   Like there's no way to make an LLM that doesn't make mistakes when trying to summarize stuff because

00:47:38   that's just the nature of the technology as it currently exists.

00:47:40   It's not an unsolvable problem.

00:47:41   It's just that Apple has not solved it and I believe nobody has solved it.

00:47:45   So unless they come up with a breakthrough, they're just going to have errors.

00:47:49   And Apple solution was disable it, wait a little while and turn it back on.

00:47:53   Still doesn't work all the time.

00:47:54   But if we put a big red warning on it, like our hands are clean, done and done.

00:47:58   Anyway, at least they give you the option and the red, they pulled out the red text.

00:48:02   The red text is there and it says verify information.

00:48:04   So we'll summarize it for you, but don't believe what we say.

00:48:07   You got to click through to check.

00:48:08   And so I think that kind of nullifies the usefulness of the summary.

00:48:12   But I saw Gruber say online, he said, well, it doesn't matter because if I see anything

00:48:16   that looks weird, I'll always click through on it to figure it out.

00:48:19   The tricky bit is sometimes incorrect information doesn't look weird.

00:48:22   Sometimes it just looks fine.

00:48:24   Like the result of a sporting event.

00:48:26   Maybe one team wins, maybe another team wins.

00:48:28   Maybe it's a lopsided contest and you're like, really, they won?

00:48:30   But if it was closely contested and they say team A won when really team B won and it was

00:48:34   a close game, are you going to click through on that because it looks weird to you?

00:48:37   No, you'd be like, hey, team A won.

00:48:39   But you're wrong.

00:48:39   They didn't.

00:48:40   It was incorrectly summarized.

00:48:41   Verify information or just disable news summaries.

00:48:44   We are brought to you this week by our members.

00:48:48   If you are not a member, we're here to tell you about ATP membership.

00:48:52   What is it and why should you get it?

00:48:54   And can you get that information without going to our website and reading a bunch of text on

00:48:59   our fact?

00:48:59   Yes, you can.

00:49:00   Here we are to tell you.

00:49:00   My pitch for membership is that it makes the show better.

00:49:04   If you like the show, you'll like the show better if you're a member.

00:49:09   First of all, you don't have to hear any ads.

00:49:11   So if you're a member, you wouldn't be hearing this right now.

00:49:13   You certainly won't hear any other ads.

00:49:15   If you want to hear the ads, you can because some people like them, but you don't have to

00:49:17   hear them.

00:49:18   So you get an ad free version of the show.

00:49:19   Second, you get ATP overtime, which is in every single episode.

00:49:23   There's another topic that we talk about that's usually pretty good and juicy that you don't

00:49:28   get to hear if you're not a member.

00:49:29   If you want to hear the quote unquote bootleg version of the show, which is the unedited feed

00:49:35   or with all of our cursing and mistakes or whatever, that includes everything.

00:49:38   And that's published like the second we stop recording.

00:49:40   You can also get access to that.

00:49:43   Also, we do once a month, roughly bonus episodes where we talk about all sorts of stuff.

00:49:48   We have maybe 30 of those bonus episodes up and every month we make another one.

00:49:51   So you get access to all the bonus episodes, if you remember.

00:49:54   And then finally, when we have our merch sales, you get 15% off during those time limited sales.

00:49:59   So that's what I think makes the show better.

00:50:02   And that's my pitch for membership.

00:50:03   How did I do?

00:50:04   Pretty well.

00:50:04   Is that a good ad?

00:50:05   I came in under time.

00:50:06   Was this the first ad you've ever done?

00:50:08   I think it is.

00:50:09   It's not really an ad because I'm just trying to tell people to pay for the show that I'm on.

00:50:12   But, you know.

00:50:12   It counts.

00:50:13   It's his first ad read.

00:50:14   So congratulations.

00:50:15   Yeah.

00:50:15   No, I did a BB added ad read back in the day.

00:50:17   Did you?

00:50:18   This is pretty.

00:50:19   And it was only like 90 seconds, too.

00:50:20   This is pretty impressive.

00:50:21   Yeah.

00:50:21   I'm very impressed.

00:50:22   My angle on it, just behind the curtain, my angle on it is to tell people what they're getting.

00:50:27   We always try to tell people what they're getting.

00:50:28   I think Casey did a pretty good job on a recent episode.

00:50:31   Like, here's what you get with membership.

00:50:32   But he forgot overtime.

00:50:33   There's a lot of stuff.

00:50:34   But, like, that's my pitch.

00:50:35   It makes the show.

00:50:36   If you like the show, you will like it better with membership.

00:50:38   Yes.

00:50:39   And you pay money for it.

00:50:40   Did I make that clear?

00:50:41   You pay for it, right?

00:50:42   You can either pay monthly or annually.

00:50:44   And if you like the show a lot and it's a big part of your life and you can fit us into

00:50:49   your entertainment budget, the show will get better.

00:50:51   It's not just you pay us like because you feel like it and you're like being nice to us or

00:50:54   whatever and you're supporting the show, which you are.

00:50:56   Like, whatever, the show will be better.

00:50:58   That's the reason why I pay for all the podcasts I pay for.

00:51:01   Yes, I want to support the shows.

00:51:02   But also, the shows become better when you don't have to hear ads, when you get access

00:51:06   to episodes sooner, when you get the bonus episodes.

00:51:08   That's why I pay for things.

00:51:09   That's the pitch.

00:51:10   Membership.

00:51:11   It's good.

00:51:11   You'll like it more.

00:51:12   If you like us, it will give you more of us and better of us.

00:51:16   Done.

00:51:17   And less of not us.

00:51:18   Right.

00:51:18   Less of not us, right?

00:51:20   No, it's very true.

00:51:21   And, you know, I can't say enough good things about all the members that we have been lucky

00:51:27   enough to amass over the years.

00:51:29   And it really is what makes the show possible.

00:51:31   I mean, it's no secret that ads have been down, particularly in podcasts, for a long time.

00:51:38   In fact, I just listened to Backstage, which is the Relay members podcast earlier today, and

00:51:43   they were lamenting the same problem and saying much of the same thing, that if it wasn't for

00:51:46   their members, Relay would be in a bad spot.

00:51:49   And I can tell you for certainty, if it wasn't for the members of ATP, ATP may or may not even

00:51:55   be a thing anymore if it wasn't for members.

00:51:56   And so it really, truly helps make this show happen.

00:52:01   That's not just lip service.

00:52:02   It really, really does.

00:52:04   And we can't say enough good things for how much we appreciate any of you who have signed

00:52:08   up.

00:52:08   And it makes a tremendous difference.

00:52:10   And one thing that John didn't mention this time is that, hey, what if you're not in a

00:52:14   position to pay us, I don't even remember what we charge, but pay us whatever it is that

00:52:18   we charge.

00:52:18   It's about eight bucks a month.

00:52:19   About eight bucks a month.

00:52:20   I think it's like 88 bucks a year or something like that.

00:52:21   If you're not in a position to pay that money, you can also ask for a gift.

00:52:26   And John slaved over, let me reboot that.

00:52:29   John spent a lot of time working on how to make gift memberships possible.

00:52:34   And you can do that on the website.

00:52:36   And it's very, very easy and very straightforward.

00:52:38   So you can ask for a gift for a birthday or a holiday or something like that.

00:52:42   And you can be gifted ATP membership.

00:52:44   So really and truly, I really think John's hit the nail on the head.

00:52:47   It makes it better for you.

00:52:49   And it honestly makes it better for us, too.

00:52:51   So everyone wins.

00:52:52   At the end of the year, I do the thing where I thank the patrons, which I'm not going to

00:52:56   do now.

00:52:56   Well, can you get to your time at the end of the year?

00:52:57   But this is not like thanking the members.

00:53:00   But just to let everyone know, members make the show possible.

00:53:03   If you're not a member, you should also be thankful to the members because they're helping

00:53:07   subsidize the show that you're listening to.

00:53:09   Lots of times I'll listen to a podcast that I'm not a member of because I only listen to

00:53:12   an episode every once in a while.

00:53:13   But that show has members that are making it possible.

00:53:16   And I'm thankful to those members.

00:53:18   So if, you know, like I said, when I pitched the patron thing at the beginning of the year,

00:53:23   everyone's got to decide, like, what is their entertainment budget?

00:53:25   And how much do I even like this show?

00:53:27   You know, how much can I afford?

00:53:29   And it's a balance.

00:53:30   Everyone has to make that decision for themselves.

00:53:32   But like part of the thing that makes patrons possible is some people like, I like the show.

00:53:36   Fine.

00:53:37   It's OK.

00:53:37   But also, I have a huge amount of money.

00:53:39   So this is nothing to me.

00:53:40   Or someone's like, this is my favorite part of every single week.

00:53:44   And even though I don't have a lot of money, it's worth it for me to pay, you know, $8 a

00:53:48   month for this show.

00:53:49   Everyone's got to make that decision for themselves.

00:53:51   So I'm not going to, you know, just if you can't pay for it, the show is still free.

00:53:54   It's fine.

00:53:54   But if you can pay for it, we thank you because you're making the show possible for us to make

00:53:58   and for everyone else to listen to.

00:54:00   Yeah.

00:54:00   I couldn't have said it better myself.

00:54:02   So thanks to members who are not hearing this, I guess.

00:54:05   If you are hearing this, it is the members who keep the show going in addition to the very

00:54:12   crappy ad market.

00:54:12   And it is the member, it is the success of the member program that has allowed us to keep

00:54:19   our ads reasonably high quality.

00:54:21   You know, there's a lot more ads to be had in the podcast space if we basically do dynamic

00:54:27   ad insertion and stick in like radio style ads for, you know, cheap kind of, you know,

00:54:34   weird car dealerships in your area and stuff like that and do like creepy targeting.

00:54:37   Like we could do that, but thanks to membership, we don't need to.

00:54:40   Not yet anyway.

00:54:41   Yeah.

00:54:42   And thanks to membership, we are able to be a little picky about who we advertise for.

00:54:46   So if there's some sponsor that like, we're like, I don't really want to, you know, shill

00:54:51   for that on the show.

00:54:52   We don't have to, we can say no to that.

00:54:54   And that's all thanks to members because we, we have the little bit of headroom there to

00:54:59   afford to say no to stuff that we don't feel good about.

00:55:03   Um, and so podcast listeners out there, I'm one of you and I never have once said, you

00:55:09   know what?

00:55:09   I think the world needs more podcast ads and whenever a show is offered in an ad free version,

00:55:16   I will almost always splurge for it because I, I really don't love listening to podcast

00:55:20   ads over and over and over again in the middle of all my shows.

00:55:23   Um, you know, we try to make them as good as we can, but at the end of the day, they're

00:55:27   still ads.

00:55:27   If you also are not super crazy about podcast ads, we are giving you that option and it's

00:55:31   a great option.

00:55:32   You get all that other stuff.

00:55:33   You get more of us, you get better of us and, uh, all that other fun stuff plus cheaper

00:55:37   t-shirts.

00:55:37   So, uh, definitely, uh, check it out.

00:55:41   ATP.fm slash join is where you get that.

00:55:44   You have to repeat the call to action three times, Marco, and do it verbatim, please.

00:55:47   That's ATP.fm slash join.

00:55:49   The only way to get this deal is to go to ATP.fm slash join.

00:55:54   That's ATP.fm slash join.

00:55:57   I think you did it four times.

00:55:58   Nope, that's it.

00:55:58   Wrong.

00:55:59   Sorry.

00:55:59   Make good.

00:55:59   That's a make good.

00:56:00   That's a make good.

00:56:01   If you just go to ATP.fm, you'll find it.

00:56:03   Yeah, we don't hide it.

00:56:04   All right, let's do some topics.

00:56:09   And apparently, John, you want to take us on a tour of Apple and interfaces.

00:56:12   Yeah, I've been thinking about this since we've been talking about all the liquid metal

00:56:16   stuff, and it's kind of, kind of like the thing with the AI crawlers causing large bandwidth

00:56:19   or whatever, something that sort of goes unsaid.

00:56:21   Uh, but I think it's worth saying because not everybody has the same context for these

00:56:25   discussions.

00:56:25   Certainly they don't have the old man historic context that I have.

00:56:29   Um, but I do feel like as time passes on, like part of the reason we're in this situation

00:56:35   with liquid glass and everything is because institutional knowledge and historic knowledge

00:56:41   just goes by the wayside.

00:56:42   So I want to just give like a brief refresher on, um, some of the foundational things that

00:56:48   are being, uh, left by the wayside as we, uh, continue in this modern age.

00:56:52   Um, and that is the idea that trying to make interfaces for computers so people can use them.

00:57:00   There is a science aspect to that.

00:57:04   Um, Apple at various times has been at the forefront of that science.

00:57:10   Uh, put a link, uh, in the notes to a couple of books from, uh, Bruce Tognizini, who was

00:57:15   a user interface expert who worked at Apple many, many years ago and was very influential

00:57:19   in the field.

00:57:20   Um, Tog on interface and Tog on software design.

00:57:24   Tog is short for Tognizini, his last name.

00:57:25   Um, talks about the science of interface design.

00:57:30   Uh, you've probably heard of some of the science things if you're kind of an old school Mac user

00:57:33   like Fitz law, which is like, okay, well with graphical user interfaces, we have pointing

00:57:37   devices, the user has to put the pointing device on a target to, you know, click on it or do

00:57:42   a thing with it.

00:57:43   So that whole task of targeting, how easy is it for people to get a pointing device onto

00:57:48   a target when using a mouse or whatever?

00:57:50   Um, and you can imagine similar things for using your finger on a screen and stuff like

00:57:54   that.

00:57:54   And they, you know, use science to say, okay, well that turns out to be a function of the

00:57:59   size of the target, the distance from you are like the, the, the, how does the interface

00:58:03   work?

00:58:04   Is it one-to-one?

00:58:04   Does it have an acceleration curve?

00:58:06   You can do science, come up with ideas, test them, run experiments and try to determine

00:58:11   more efficient, more useful, easier to understand interfaces.

00:58:15   Um, Apple in, especially in the early days around the era of the early days of the Mac,

00:58:20   a lot of the things, uh, in both in the Mac and subsequently following on from the initial

00:58:26   Mac OS to the later ones were informed by this scientific progress.

00:58:30   And this also includes user testing saying we have an idea for an interface, but it's, does

00:58:35   it make the computer easy to use?

00:58:36   Do people understand it?

00:58:37   Some of the ideas that are in the original Mac are like, let's make a standardized interface.

00:58:42   So you learn how to use a scroll bar.

00:58:43   You can reuse that knowledge.

00:58:44   Every app has a standard scroll bar.

00:58:46   Every app has a standard window with a title bar and a closed box so that when you learn one

00:58:51   app, it's the same everywhere.

00:58:52   This was a revolutionary idea in user interface design from the previous days when every application

00:58:57   just did whatever the heck it wanted interface wise.

00:58:59   But the Mac was like every Mac app has Mac windows and Mac scroll bars and Mac buttons and

00:59:04   Mac radio buttons and Mac checkboxes, standard controls, right?

00:59:07   That it sounds boring now, but this was a, this was an advance and it was, you know, it's,

00:59:12   it's an idea and it was tested and it has a rationale behind it to make the interface

00:59:18   easy to use.

00:59:18   So that's the science aspect of user interfaces.

00:59:21   There's another aspect of making good user interfaces, which is the art of it.

00:59:25   Apple's Aqua introduction, which I don't have a video of because maybe they didn't give that

00:59:29   on the W2C discs, but anyways, Mac worlds are not W2C Mac world, San Francisco, 2000.

00:59:34   We'll put a link in the show notes to your YouTube video of it.

00:59:36   The quality is terrible, but I don't have a better one.

00:59:38   I'm sorry.

00:59:39   The quality is so bad.

00:59:40   I watched it earlier today and I don't think I'd ever seen it before because I was not in

00:59:44   the Apple world in 2000.

00:59:46   I will briefly sidetrack us and say that a direct quote from Jobs during this presentation

00:59:52   is he says, menus are semi-transparent too, except for the text.

00:59:56   And I was just like, oh, really now?

00:59:59   It just made me think of all the liquid glass discourse of these days and how that relates

01:00:04   all the way back to 2000.

01:00:05   Yeah.

01:00:06   Again, I wish there was a higher quality one, but I think the Aqua introduction, this is

01:00:10   the first time the Aqua user interface was revealed to the public.

01:00:13   And it was quite shocking coming from the classic Mac OS interface, which was nothing

01:00:16   like this at all.

01:00:17   That shows some of the art because there's lots of things that are in Aqua that are there

01:00:23   not for scientifically backed user interface reasons, but because they want to evoke an emotional

01:00:32   response.

01:00:32   As Jobs said in the keynote, one of the design goals was that when you see the interface,

01:00:38   you want to lick it.

01:00:38   There's not a usability angle on that.

01:00:42   That's part of the art of it.

01:00:43   You want to make it attractive, fun, cool looking.

01:00:46   And that is an important part of interface design because the, you know, there's, you know,

01:00:52   there's a YouTube channel I watch that it's a food channel.

01:00:55   I forget what the name of it is, but they always talk about the different aspects of taste of

01:00:59   like, I forget what it is, like sweet, sour, bitter, umami.

01:01:02   What am I forgetting?

01:01:04   Whatever.

01:01:05   A whole bunch of salty.

01:01:06   Salty.

01:01:07   There you go.

01:01:07   Thank you.

01:01:08   But then he always adds, uh, I think an unfortunately named, but an important thing,

01:01:13   which is the human factor, which is like, how does the food look?

01:01:17   What memories do you have it over your childhood or whatever?

01:01:19   And you think, well, that's not a, that's not an aspect of taste, but it is, it's such

01:01:22   a big part of the food experience.

01:01:23   Yes.

01:01:24   There's all the taste factors that go into a food, but there's always the human element

01:01:27   in any interface design, making something cool or lickable or attractive or like makes

01:01:34   it feel fun or makes you want to use it and want to touch it and want to manipulate

01:01:38   it there.

01:01:39   That's an art, uh, to it.

01:01:41   And so ideally any good computer interface is, has ideas that are founded in science that

01:01:49   we found to be a good way to let people use a computer, that it makes them be able to be

01:01:54   successful, makes them make fewer errors, makes it understandable, makes it easier to use,

01:01:58   makes it, makes it powerful so they can do the things they want to do without lots of effort.

01:02:02   And also the art of interface design that makes it attractive and makes you want to, uh, play

01:02:08   with it and makes you excited about using it and makes it feel like a pleasant place to

01:02:11   be and does not cause anxiety and like a million different things.

01:02:14   Right.

01:02:14   And that whole science aspect of interfaces sometimes feels to me entirely forgotten by

01:02:21   everybody, not just Apple, not just people who work in the industry by users, by journalists,

01:02:28   by everybody has like forgetting the idea that there even is an aspect of user interface design

01:02:33   that can be founded in science.

01:02:35   You can test things and see if they make the interfaces better.

01:02:40   And you can have ideas about how you might make the interface better that are founded in reason.

01:02:44   Maybe if we have standard scroll bars everywhere, then once someone learns how that scroll bar works,

01:02:50   they'll be able to scroll in every application instead of having to relearn it.

01:02:55   That's an idea and then they can test that idea and the idea there's reasoning behind it.

01:02:59   There's logic behind it.

01:03:00   Let's have an idea for improving the interface founded in some kind of logic that seems like it should make sense.

01:03:07   And let's test that idea.

01:03:08   And I can't remember the last time I've seen anything like that anywhere,

01:03:13   having anything to do with interfaces across this entire industry for like decades.

01:03:17   All I ever see is the art and debate about the art and whether the art is good or bad

01:03:22   or whether they like how it looks and whether they don't like us.

01:03:24   Do you think it's cool?

01:03:25   Do you not think it's cool?

01:03:26   And the art part is important, but it's not the only part of interface design.

01:03:30   So if you're listening to this and you've never heard anything about this,

01:03:33   you don't know anything about the science of user interface design or it sounds boring or whatever,

01:03:36   I encourage you to either buy or find an e-book or PDF download or whatever of these very old,

01:03:42   like they're thrown in the 90s, this Tog on interface and Tog on software design and just read them.

01:03:46   Is it relevant to today's things?

01:03:47   Not really, but it will give you the mindset of like, how do I think about interface design?

01:03:52   If I want to use logic and reason to come up with ideas that I think will make the interface better

01:03:57   and then test those ideas, because that seems so incredibly absent.

01:04:01   All the debates about liquid, I keep saying liquid metal.

01:04:04   I know I do.

01:04:05   All the liquid glass interface stuff.

01:04:06   Many people say, oh, it's misguided.

01:04:10   The foundations are wrong, so on and so forth.

01:04:12   The reasons they give for it, as Marco has said in past shows, like the reasons they give don't make any sense

01:04:17   and are basically BS because they don't, they're not logical.

01:04:20   Like the things they say that it does, it doesn't do.

01:04:22   And even if it did do it, it doesn't, it doesn't make any logical sense why that would make the interface better.

01:04:27   It's like, it's, it's a tautological thing.

01:04:29   We wanted to do this.

01:04:30   Therefore, we wanted to do it.

01:04:31   Therefore, it's good.

01:04:31   Like, they don't even attempt to say how, like, it's just, anyway.

01:04:36   So I, I just feel like that's entirely missing.

01:04:39   And then part of it is, you know, so when Jobs came back, he was so heavily into the art and he didn't like all these nerd eggheads doing the science part of it.

01:04:46   You know, he changed the balance for sure.

01:04:49   And I feel like it has only accelerated to the point where now Alan Dye, who apparently comes from like a, a Marcom background, which is marketing, communication, like in print design, doesn't even have a background in user interface design.

01:05:01   But I assure you, user interface design still is a field of study, at least in the academic world, where people try to make, you know, interfaces more usable to people by using reason and testing things and not just, you know, having a whim and deciding I want, you know, stitched leather because I think it's cool and reminds me of the, the seat backs on my private jet or whatever the heck the story behind that was.

01:05:23   Like, again, that's an important part of it, but there has to be a balance.

01:05:27   And I feel like the balance is way, way, way, way, way too far in the direction of the art and emotion side, which again is an important factor, but it's can't be the only factor.

01:05:39   And if you're on way on the art side and you make an interface that people don't find appealing, now you've got a real problem because it's not usable.

01:05:47   It's not useful.

01:05:48   It's like you're making the interface worse and people don't even think it's cool looking.

01:05:51   So hopefully lots of people will think liquid glass looks real cool because I think in many aspects the usability of it has gotten worse and the supposed foundations of its design don't make any sense and surely weren't tested in any way because we're using the interfaces and finding all these obvious problems and they don't care and they're, they're not fixable because the design itself is fundamentally just flawed.

01:06:15   I mean, it's not the end of the world.

01:06:16   Like I agree with what Marco said, like, you know, you can use it.

01:06:20   It's mostly, I said this since the beginning, since I've been using Tahoe, like I don't particularly like it.

01:06:24   I see that it is doing dumb things for dumb reasons, but in the end you mostly get along, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't stop you from using your Mac.

01:06:32   It's not some kind of fundamental change that like, now I can't even use my Mac or whatever.

01:06:36   The accessibility options there are, they're turned on.

01:06:38   I just don't find the art appealing and I think they made the interface worse.

01:06:41   And what I'm craving is a return of a better balance between the science of interface design and the art of interface design.

01:06:50   And I, you know, I, this has been an industry trend for everybody for ages and within Apple it's, you know, it's, it's, it's like epidemic proportions of too much art, not enough science.

01:07:04   Yeah, I don't even, I don't even know if the really, really high ups even know that this is a science or, or respect it as one.

01:07:13   Or have any people who work at Apple whose degree is in user interface design who are doing it.

01:07:19   I mean, like, and I'm sure, I mean, I hope some of those people are still there, but it's very clear that they are not the ones making the big decisions anymore.

01:07:26   And, and that's, that's a shame because you're right.

01:07:28   Like this is a knowable and known field.

01:07:32   This is a studied field, a rigorous studied, like real discipline.

01:07:37   And, and evolving.

01:07:38   Like, I'm not saying it's stuck in stone.

01:07:40   You advance it.

01:07:41   You try to come up with new ideas using new technology.

01:07:43   Like it should always be advancing.

01:07:44   Yeah.

01:07:45   And it seems like they, they don't respect it.

01:07:48   Because unless they're just, I mean, either they're really bad at it, or they don't even know this is a thing that they should be respecting.

01:07:58   And I'm, I'm thinking the latter is more likely.

01:08:00   I think, I think a lot of it is the hangover from jobs because he, he eventually had such a disdain for that thing because he would have an idea in his head about something that he thinks is really cool.

01:08:09   And they would say there's some aspect of it that is not good for usability.

01:08:12   And it was like, don't be a naysayer.

01:08:13   Like he really intentionally pushed Apple in the other direction, which is, you know, I, I have good taste.

01:08:21   Don't tell me about the stupid science stuff.

01:08:23   That's how you get boring interfaces.

01:08:24   Like platinum was boring.

01:08:26   Aqua is exciting.

01:08:26   See how I fixed Apple by doing this.

01:08:28   And in many respects, he was right that the pendulum had swung too far the other direction, but he's such a forceful person.

01:08:34   It was such a powerful leader, leader in Apple for so long and so influential.

01:08:39   And the company was so successful that I think he was, uh, very able to drive out the power and influence of the science-based user design within Apple.

01:08:49   And then when he left, everyone's like, well, we should just keep doing what jobs is doing because he's great and we're great and everything.

01:08:53   And it just continued after he was gone.

01:08:55   And I think now the company is reaping the, uh, uh, non-benefits, uh, reaping what they sowed.

01:09:02   Like they, they've, they, uh, successfully expunged all people who know how to make user better user interfaces in exchange for artists.

01:09:10   And now sometimes when the arc goes wrong, there's nothing left.

01:09:13   All right.

01:09:14   Uh, a couple of days ago, yesterday, maybe I think it was as we record this, uh, Apple announced services, services, services.

01:09:22   And this one is Apple care one, uh, writing or excuse me, reading from Apple's announcement, Apple today on the 23rd unveiled Apple care one, a new way for customers to cover multiple Apple products with one simple plan for just $19.99 per month.

01:09:37   Customers can protect up to three products in one plan with the option to add more at any time for $5.99 per month for each device.

01:09:43   Devices must be less than four years old and headphones must be less than one year old.

01:09:47   Only devices in the customer's Apple account can be covered under Apple care one.

01:09:52   Starting tomorrow, customers in the U S can sign up for Apple care ones directly on their iPhone, iPad, or Mac, or by visiting their nearest Apple store.

01:09:59   Apple care one includes all of the benefits that come with Apple care plus, including unlimited repairs for accidents like drops and spills, 24 seven priority support, quick and convenient Apple certified service and battery coverage.

01:10:11   Apple care one also expands the theft and loss protection beyond iPhone to also cover iPad and Apple watch fees and deductible supply.

01:10:20   Apple care one pricing is the same regardless of the products that are covered, meaning a customer can enroll their phone, iPad, and Apple watch and save up to $11 a month over enrolling in separate Apple care plus plans for each device.

01:10:31   Additional items can be added for $5.99 per month each with Apple care one customers can now add products they already own that are up to four years old if they're in good condition to verify good condition products may be required to undergo a diagnostic check using a customer's iPhone or iPad or at an Apple store prior to being added to the plan.

01:10:47   This provides customers with more opportunities to protect their devices even beyond the current 60 day window to purchase Apple care plus.

01:10:53   The verge writes that Apple care one is a good deal, but not for everyone.

01:10:57   Apple care one lets you protect up to three devices for $19.99 per month.

01:11:00   Apple claims the customers can save $11 per month by enrolling in a phone watch and pad in Apple care one compared to paying for three individual Apple care plus plans for those devices.

01:11:07   But that's not true across the board for all of its models.

01:11:10   For example, the monthly cost of for iPhone coverage with Apple care plus starts at $9.99 for the cheapest and oldest eligible models, whereas the iPad and Apple watch start at $4.99 and $2.99 respectively, totaling $17.97 per month.

01:11:22   In this case, Apple care one is a slightly worse deal than buying the plans a la carte.

01:11:26   Where the new service shines is if you own some of Apple's most expensive products like the iPhone 16 pro, the Apple vision pro and the 12.9 inch iPad pro with the M4 chip.

01:11:35   Paying for a monthly Apple care plus plan for each of these three would cost 47, 47 total per month.

01:11:42   That's almost 50 bucks.

01:11:43   According to a list of prices, Apple PR manager, Anna Mitchell shared with the verge Apple care one.

01:11:47   On the other hand would still be $19.99 for any mix of three products Mitchell confirmed, which is obviously the better deal by a huge margin.

01:11:53   What's important to keep in mind is that just like Apple care plus with Apple care one, you still have to pay deductibles and fees for each and every repair.

01:11:59   And those costs vary depending on the device, as well as the type of repair you need, how much you can expect to pay, which is in addition to your monthly Apple care.

01:12:05   Their fee is listed on Apple's website and we will link to a couple of things with regard to that.

01:12:09   Yeah.

01:12:10   So the service fees and deductibles tells you like, like Casey had to pay 29 bucks or whatever for his AirPods thing.

01:12:16   You'll see on this thing.

01:12:17   Hey, if you get any kind of Apple care plus AirPods thing, you're going to pay $29.

01:12:21   You can find out what that is for your product.

01:12:23   And then we'll link to the main Apple care page, which has the plans of the prices, which will become relevant in a moment.

01:12:30   A couple of selected fact items here from Apple's Apple care page.

01:12:34   Can I add my family's devices to my Apple care one plan?

01:12:38   That was one of my biggest questions because a lot of like the, you know, what is it called?

01:12:41   iCloud.

01:12:41   What is the iCloud?

01:12:42   How's the Apple one?

01:12:44   Apple one.

01:12:45   Thank you.

01:12:45   Apple one.

01:12:46   That is kind of like a family thing where you can get everyone in on it.

01:12:49   But as for Apple care one, the answer is Apple care one plans covered devices that are on the same Apple account as the subscriber.

01:12:57   And I'll have a little bit more on that with my personal experience in a second.

01:13:01   But if you're thinking of like, oh, I'm just going to put my whole family's devices under one Apple care one plan.

01:13:05   It only counts if they're on the whatever account you buy it through your Apple ID.

01:13:11   I keep saying Apple ID your Apple account.

01:13:13   It's only for devices that also use that same Apple account.

01:13:16   And then how do you buy it?

01:13:18   It's actually kind of tricky.

01:13:19   They have an answer in the fact which is, oh, it's just easy.

01:13:23   You just you can do it online or through your app or, you know, through your device or whatever.

01:13:27   You will.

01:13:29   I'm sure they will push it more harshly.

01:13:31   But like an easiest way to do is just go to your phone, go to settings general.

01:13:34   And then there's a warranty and repair thing.

01:13:35   And you'll see the come on at the top of the page.

01:13:37   So for once, Apple's advertising of features that helps you to find things.

01:13:41   I did that on my phone and it brought up a nice little after I said, yes, I want to try upgrading my plan, brought up a nice little thing that says, hey, given these devices, I think it just picks three random devices or maybe picks like the most attractive random devices.

01:13:54   So it says you can save up to $17.98 per month when you protect John's iPhone 16 Pro, Tina's iPhone 15 Pro and John's iPad Pro M4.

01:14:03   Luckily, I named my devices so you can tell what they all are.

01:14:05   So, hey, almost $18 a month in saving.

01:14:08   It's saying right there, if you upgrade, if you go to this instead of what you currently have, you will save money.

01:14:15   And I did that upgrade coverage thing.

01:14:17   And then it just told me it couldn't process my request because the thing is slammed.

01:14:19   So it took me all day to get through.

01:14:22   All day, it's just been totally down.

01:14:24   Like it brings you to the Apple Pay prompt.

01:14:26   You double tap.

01:14:27   You do face thing.

01:14:28   It says processing.

01:14:29   And then it says, oh, I couldn't do it.

01:14:30   Sorry.

01:14:30   But eventually it did let me do it.

01:14:32   And that led me to the plan prices page.

01:14:37   Because after you do this, after you see that it'll come on and says you can save $18 a month.

01:14:41   Do you want to do this?

01:14:42   Yeah, I do want to.

01:14:43   I do want to save $18 a month.

01:14:44   So I did it and fine, you're done.

01:14:47   But then after you've done that, so now I'm paying $19.99 in a month for these three devices and I'm saving $18 a month.

01:14:52   But you can add more devices to this Apple Care 1 plan for what was it?

01:14:56   $5.99 per device?

01:14:58   I think that's right, yeah.

01:14:59   But the question is, if I add this device to my Apple Care 1, is it cheaper or is it more expensive?

01:15:06   So for example, with the Apple Watch, that's $2.99 a month.

01:15:09   If I add it to the plan, it becomes $5.99 a month.

01:15:12   And nowhere in the interface did they say, are you sure you want to add that device?

01:15:16   Because you'd be paying more.

01:15:17   No, they don't tell you that at all.

01:15:20   So you have to go to the Apple Care.com, Apple.com slash Apple Care, scroll down to the plans section, click on the thing that you have like Mac or iPhone or display or whatever, and then click on all model pricing and then look for the model that you have.

01:15:36   And then it will tell you what the monthly and annual fees are.

01:15:39   It gets more complicated because like what if you're not paying month by month?

01:15:42   What if you paid for two years in advance and you're paying annually?

01:15:44   The annual prices are way cheaper than the monthly ones in some cases.

01:15:47   So you have to do a little bit of math in your head and figure out how many of my devices should I add to my Apple Care 1 plan so that I'm not losing.

01:15:57   Like I want, I'm only added if I'm going to save money.

01:16:00   And that was a little bit tedious.

01:16:01   They don't make that easy.

01:16:02   It's nice that on the very first come on, they will say, do this and this is how much you'll save for these three devices.

01:16:07   So I just took their advice.

01:16:08   I said, great, those three devices, I will save that much money.

01:16:11   I believe you, good.

01:16:12   But the other devices I added, I only added devices where after I looked up the pricing and everything, I determined that it would be cheaper to add the device than to leave it.

01:16:21   So I had to leave a bunch of devices on their existing plans either because they're on multi-year plans that are cheaper or because they're monthly plans that are less than $5.99.

01:16:30   Like a Mac mini is $3.49 a month.

01:16:32   You should not add that at $5.99 a month because when you do add it, it cancels your old Apple Care and it refunds you any, you know, fees that anything for like the remainder of the time that you aren't going to use or whatever.

01:16:44   And by the way, I think it refunds it to you as an Apple gift card, which is kind of janky, but whatever, I'll end up spending it.

01:16:49   So I did that.

01:16:50   And then like for the family thing, one of the devices that I put on after looking up the price, it was a MacBook Air 13 inch, which its monthly fee is $6.99.

01:16:59   My son's M2 MacBook Air is out of warranty.

01:17:03   This is one of the good things about Apple Care One.

01:17:05   It's been out of warranty for like years now, right?

01:17:07   As long as it's less than four years old, you can put it back on warranty, which I don't think you think you'd ever be able to do.

01:17:14   Like I think it's like, like I said, a 60 day window.

01:17:16   Normally after your Apple Care expires, you can, you know, you can put it back into Apple Care.

01:17:20   Now you have four years to decide to put that into Apple Care.

01:17:23   And I didn't mean for my son's Apple MacBook Air to expire.

01:17:26   I just bought like a two year thing and just let it expire because I forgot about it.

01:17:30   So I want it to be back on Apple Care and $5.99 is cheaper than $6.99.

01:17:35   So I put it back on and it worked and it did that and it put it back on.

01:17:39   And then I saw some orange text underneath it that says this device will be removed.

01:17:43   Like on like my warranty screen where it says, here's all your Apple Care One devices.

01:17:47   And it's this device will be removed.

01:17:48   I'm like, why, why will it be removed?

01:17:50   And I kept tapping into it or whatever.

01:17:51   And eventually I realized it's that rule that we said before, Apple Care One only applies

01:17:57   to devices that are on the same Apple account as the subscriber.

01:18:01   So what I had to do was go to my son's MacBook Air, make an account for me, sign into my Apple

01:18:08   ID on that account.

01:18:10   And that makes it happy because now it thinks it's, quote unquote, my MacBook Air.

01:18:14   I mean, I did pay for it and technically, you know, I do own it.

01:18:16   But anyway, so that's your way around the family thing.

01:18:20   That works great for Macs where I can make a second account and sign in with a different

01:18:23   Apple ID.

01:18:24   It doesn't work so great for phones because if your kid's got a phone, you're not going

01:18:28   to sign into your Apple ID on your kid's phone.

01:18:30   Maybe you can sign in with your Apple ID in the store or something and find some work

01:18:33   around, but I wouldn't want to risk it too much there.

01:18:35   So that's my advice is look into Apple Care One.

01:18:39   Anyone who's listening to this who has any Apple Care on anything, especially if you have

01:18:43   expensive devices, like they said in that Verge article or whatever, if you have something

01:18:47   with Pro in the name or some kind of expensive Mac, you'll probably save money.

01:18:53   You can add your kid's devices, especially if they're Macs, if you have an account on it

01:18:57   signed into your Apple ID.

01:18:58   But just be careful that you do the math with all the links we'll put in here to figure

01:19:01   out whether you're actually saving money or not.

01:19:04   Oh, and I was very disappointed to learn that like for what I don't think I could get month

01:19:10   to month or anyway, I didn't get month to month for my Pro Display XDR.

01:19:13   I wish I did.

01:19:14   It has been out of warranty for a while now.

01:19:17   And I fear I see an underscore having the big red line on his XDR that he keeps making

01:19:22   appointments at the Apple store about.

01:19:24   And then as soon as the appointment comes up, the red line goes away.

01:19:26   So he cancels it.

01:19:27   I fear every day that my XDR will have a problem because I don't want to get a smaller

01:19:32   monitor, but I would never buy this big monitor again.

01:19:34   But I can't put it like they're more than four years old.

01:19:37   My 2019 Mac Pro and my XDR that I bought at the same time, they're both more than four years

01:19:42   old.

01:19:42   They're ineligible to be added to an AppleCare One plan.

01:19:45   So I'm just sitting here with my fingers crossed.

01:19:47   And the other thing is my wife's studio display.

01:19:51   It's less than four years old, but it doesn't show up anywhere in the UI for me to add it

01:19:55   to the plan.

01:19:56   So I don't know the deal with that is.

01:19:57   Maybe I did add her Mac mini or sorry, her Mac studio, but I didn't see the monitor.

01:20:02   I don't know if that's bundled with it or something because I bought them together.

01:20:04   But anyway, that's my advice.

01:20:06   Check out AppleCare One.

01:20:06   You will probably save some money.

01:20:08   All right.

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01:20:16   One of the perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic.

01:20:21   It is more of us every week exclusively for members.

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01:20:40   We're going to talk about it in the after show and kind of all the joy around exploring the

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01:20:47   That's this week's Overtime.

01:20:48   And how it ties into what I was just talking about with the interface design.

01:20:51   Exactly.

01:20:51   Yes.

01:20:52   There is a lot of relevant tie-ins there.

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01:21:00   And we'll talk to you next week.

01:21:04   Now the show is over.

01:21:06   They didn't even mean to begin.

01:21:08   Cause it was accidental.

01:21:10   Accidental.

01:21:12   Oh, it was accidental.

01:21:13   Accidental.

01:21:14   John didn't do any research.

01:21:17   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:21:19   Cause it was accidental.

01:21:21   Accidental.

01:21:22   Oh, it was accidental.

01:21:24   Accidental.

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01:22:00   all right john do you have a correction or an addition to an earlier topic yeah my bad i should

01:22:09   put more detailed notes for myself when we were i was talking about apple and interfaces and the

01:22:13   science and outer interface one other point that i wanted to make about the aqua introduction which

01:22:17   again i encourage everybody who either wasn't alive then or or or has just never seen it um

01:22:24   to watch that video because it is it is a trip when they introduce aqua they talk a little bit

01:22:30   about some of their reasoning behind things but also in their human interface guidelines of the day

01:22:35   they talk more about it maybe we'll find a link to that and shove it in the show notes but you can

01:22:39   probably find it somewhere and actually it might be difficult you might have to go to archive.org

01:22:43   or something anyway an example of uh a combination of art and science with some kind of rationale behind

01:22:51   it which may or may not have worked out but but anyway it's an example of something with a rationale

01:22:56   that makes some kind of sense aqua has transparency in it that was one of its innovative features

01:23:01   there's transparency in the interface which was new for mac os and new for desktop os's to the degree

01:23:07   that aqua did it it was a compositing window manager that you could have like soft shadows that are

01:23:11   transparent laid on top of stuff the title bars of windows when are inactive or transparent pull down

01:23:17   menus for transparent stuff like that part of apple's pitch about hey why are these things in the os transparent

01:23:25   and these things not had a logic behind it sheets which were an innovation in mac os 10

01:23:33   or um they still exist they're basically little dialogues that are attached to windows so for example

01:23:40   if you have a document window and you want to save it back in the old days in classic mac os

01:23:44   they would throw up an app modal dialogue which means a dial a save dialogue will come up and say

01:23:49   where do you want to save this document and that would block the whole app even if you had five

01:23:53   documents open on a big screen because you were saving one of them you couldn't say oh before i

01:23:58   decide where to save this let me go over to this other document it's like nope this document is app

01:24:02   modal means this entire app is currently in the mode that's saying you are now saving pick a directory

01:24:07   to save this document and give it a file name right totally block it you can go to other apps and use

01:24:12   them but this dialogue will block the entire app the innovation of sheets was it would be attached

01:24:17   to the document window and yeah that window is blocked until you decide to save or hit cancel but other

01:24:23   document windows are fine um and so the sheet sort of came out of the uh with an animation sort of like

01:24:31   vertically sort of came out of the document window towards you and then curled down to let you know

01:24:36   unambiguously this sheet is attached to this window first of all it's it's within the bounds of this

01:24:42   window but also you saw it come out of this window it is clearly like a like a like a necktie for this

01:24:47   window so it is document modal right and why is the sheet transparent because it's temporary same thing

01:24:56   with pull down menus from the menu bar they appear briefly on top of something else and they're

01:25:02   transparent parent not because it looks cool not to highlight your content but because in the original

01:25:09   aqua interface transparent meant temporary meant i'm going on top of stuff briefly but then i'm going

01:25:16   away i'm pulling down a menu but when i'm done it will go away they violated that sometimes certain

01:25:22   things were transparent that weren't temporary like the dock which was there all the time um

01:25:27   similar but yeah and they use it for other things like the title bar of the of an active window was

01:25:32   opaque but title bars of background windows were transparent one of the things they learned after

01:25:37   they released it was you can't read the titles of background windows because they're all transparent

01:25:42   and the titles overlay each other so they walk that back right but i do want to highlight like the

01:25:47   combination of art and uh and science here of saying we think transparent stuff looks cool it's a

01:25:53   cornerstone of our lickable user interface that's part of the art of this it is very appealing to

01:25:56   people people are dazzled by it it's great right but when and where should we use transparency let's come

01:26:03   up with some kind of rationale and that rationale of temporary interface elements that briefly appear and

01:26:10   then go away those should be transparent to highlight their transient nature whereas more permanent things are

01:26:17   opaque and yes they violated that in a few areas here or there but that's an example of combining those

01:26:22   two things of coming up with something that you think is cool but then deciding how and where to

01:26:27   deploy it with some kind of rationale that makes some kind of sense and yes they should have user

01:26:32   tested the transparent inactive window title bars and realized that it makes it so you can't read the

01:26:36   title bars of windows because they all jumble up as i think i did a screenshot of that in my original

01:26:39   mac os 10 review right so there were infallible aqua is not perfect i complained about you know i

01:26:44   arguably made an entire career complaining about the usability problems with aqua right but i you know

01:26:50   it's it's such a even aqua for all the things everyone hated about it all the things i complained about it is such a

01:26:56   contrast in that they at least try to explain why they were doing things and when you hear the explanation

01:27:03   you go yeah all right that makes sense and still you get to then try it and see how it works out and they probably

01:27:08   should have done more user testing but anyway that was the point i meant to make earlier and i didn't so

01:27:11   i shoved it in the after show go team perfect