00:00:00 ◼ ► From Relay, this is Upgrade. This is episode 571 for July 7th, 2025. This episode is brought
00:00:17 ◼ ► to you by Squarespace, Delete Me, and Oracle. My name is Mike Hurley, and I have the pleasure,
00:00:27 ◼ ► I'm good. You know, I'm very happy today. The YouTube viewers will see that I'm wearing
00:00:31 ◼ ► a Rumor Roundup t-shirt today. I love this t-shirt. It's a nice orange t-shirt with the Rumor
00:00:39 ◼ ► Yeah, it looks good, right? People can buy it themselves. You can go to UpgradeYourWardrobe.com.
00:00:43 ◼ ► We have a small selection of shirts that are always available there, so people can go buy
00:00:48 ◼ ► them. You get Lawyer Up, you get Rumor Roundup, whatever you want. But there's not enough time
00:01:00 ◼ ► Have I ever been to a Renaissance Fair? Yes. I have been one time to a Renaissance Fair.
00:01:11 ◼ ► I can tell you from my Googling on the subject that it was in the 90s. It was fine. We never went back.
00:01:22 ◼ ► And one of the reasons we never went back, as you will see, I put two links in our show notes about
00:01:29 ◼ ► this, one of which is a link to the Vince Mulroy Wildlife Preserve Wikipedia page, which will explain.
00:01:37 ◼ ► The preserve is partially on the site of the former Renaissance Pleasure Fair, which took place there
00:01:42 ◼ ► from 1971 until 1998. When the fair went bankrupt, Vince Mulroy bought the land, donated part of it to
00:01:49 ◼ ► become the preserve. And the rest of it became the Stone Tree Golf Club. And they also have a bunch of
00:01:54 ◼ ► housing out there. And in fact, so I'm taking this in just a completely different direction. In fact,
00:01:59 ◼ ► over the weekend, Lauren and I went up to Sacramento, went to the art museum, and then went to the baseball
00:02:05 ◼ ► game. The Giants were playing the Sacramento's, which they don't want to be called by the city in
00:02:13 ◼ ► which they play, which I think is a jerk move. So I'm only going to call them by the name of the city
00:02:28 ◼ ► I all love to the people of the city of Sacramento and no love to the owner of the Sacramento's.
00:02:33 ◼ ► So the journey to Sacramento takes us right past Black Point, where the Renaissance Fair was.
00:02:40 ◼ ► And every time I look off the road there, there's a little kind of like hillside and a little path
00:02:47 ◼ ► going up. And there's houses and a golf course. And I think, oh, there's the Ren Fair, because it
00:02:53 ◼ ► hasn't been the Ren Fair for 25 years. But that's my story. I went one time, and then they shut the
00:03:08 ◼ ► Well, we never know how much I liked it, because it's now further away. And I went one time.
00:03:17 ◼ ► Why have I never gone back? Is it because I didn't like it or didn't like it enough? Or is it because
00:03:30 ◼ ► If you'd like to send in a question of your own to help us open a future episode of the
00:03:37 ◼ ► We have some follow-up. Many people wrote in to recommend Hyperjuice Chargers for traveling
00:03:47 ◼ ► For a few reasons. One, they have a lot of options, including one that goes to 145 watts, which
00:03:51 ◼ ► is bananas. But the main thing that it seems that people like about the Hyperjuice Chargers
00:03:56 ◼ ► is you can, they have an adapter for like one of those figure eight kind of barrel plug things.
00:04:04 ◼ ► So you can essentially have a long cable that comes off of the socket. So you can plug that
00:04:09 ◼ ► in wherever, and then you can move the, like the power brick, I guess, wherever you want. So
00:04:17 ◼ ► It's fine. I have one of their products. The reason I have one of their products is because
00:04:27 ◼ ► And they got recalled and I got some credit to buy a different product from them. And the
00:04:32 ◼ ► credit was priced so that I had to spend more money to buy a different product from them
00:04:36 ◼ ► or I just ate the money. And I did end up buying more product from them. So anyway, I don't
00:04:41 ◼ ► know if I'm going to be able to endorse Hyperjuice, but I really liked that charger that got recalled.
00:04:49 ◼ ► I mean, that's probably why. I mean, it's like, you know, Anchor products always getting recalled.
00:04:54 ◼ ► Like this is, this is part of, I have so many issues around charging technology and like
00:05:01 ◼ ► I should, uh, uh, uh, tell you this. Um, my, so I bought actually the wire cutter speaking product
00:05:09 ◼ ► recalls. I bought, uh, uh, media, uh, um, air conditioner a few years ago, a window unit.
00:05:18 ◼ ► And it's the, like the U shaped one. Why it was the wire cutter pick for ages. It may still be,
00:05:23 ◼ ► um, because our houses here in Marin County traditionally not had air conditioning and we had enough misery in
00:05:30 ◼ ► our house that I finally decided to buy one and put it in the window in the summertime in the living
00:05:35 ◼ ► room. So we'd have at least one room on a hot day. That would be fine. Um, it has, it has been
00:05:41 ◼ ► replaced, right? We now have redone our roof and put in a heat pump that does heat and air conditioning.
00:05:48 ◼ ► And so it's been double replaced because first off the house doesn't get as hot as it used to
00:05:52 ◼ ► at all because of the, uh, uh, the, the insulation that is the new roof. Amazing difference. Uh, amazing.
00:06:02 ◼ ► Like it used to get so much warmer in here. Um, and then there's AC if we want it. So I had this thing
00:06:08 ◼ ► and I'm like, I'm going to have to sell it or donate it, or I'm going to have to do something
00:06:14 ◼ ► with it. Great news, everybody. It got recalled because it had allowed moisture to collect and
00:06:35 ◼ ► it to the dump basically. Oh, but they paid, but they paid me for it. Oh, they don't want
00:06:40 ◼ ► it back. They're just like, here's the money. They don't want it back. They said, they said
00:06:43 ◼ ► you could ship it back. Uh, and, and there's a whole thing, a rigmarole about shipping this
00:06:49 ◼ ► heavy thing back. They said, or just cut off the power cord and take a picture of it, which
00:06:54 ◼ ► is what I did. So, uh, so I got my money back. I could, did they give you a full refund?
00:07:04 ◼ ► when these things happen, these companies don't just go out of business. Well, they've got
00:07:08 ◼ ► other products and apparently have done pretty well. Uh, they'll also do a replacement, right?
00:07:12 ◼ ► But I'm not interested in that because I actually don't want the thing anymore. Um, so I hate the
00:07:17 ◼ ► waste of it, but at the same time, it's a faulty, it's a faulty thing. It must be insurance
00:07:21 ◼ ► or something. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know exactly what happened here, but, um, it got, uh, it
00:07:28 ◼ ► got removed. So Medea, uh, friendship ended with Medea. Right. Whole home air conditioning
00:07:35 ◼ ► is my new best friend. Is, is Daikin the makers of my air conditioner, which is also they, and
00:07:41 ◼ ► nobody's ever heard of them. And they're now the name of the Houston Astros ballpark. So
00:07:45 ◼ ► everybody will know who the random company, the Japanese, uh, uh, heat pump company that makes
00:07:51 ◼ ► my heating and air conditioning. I also, speaking of which, um, Medea, not great home kit support.
00:07:58 ◼ ► I think I had to have a plugin for that. Uh, and, uh, Daikin, uh, also not great home kit
00:08:05 ◼ ► support. And I have to have a, uh, a home bridge plugin for that as well, unfortunately, but it
00:08:09 ◼ ► is great. So that's, that's the thing. So anyway, uh, let's hear it for product recalls.
00:08:16 ◼ ► Uh, after the WWDC keynote, we had someone ask us, uh, why didn't we hear anything about
00:08:22 ◼ ► Pixelmator anywhere now that they're owned by Apple? Uh, well, the app just got its first
00:08:27 ◼ ► update in its post-acquisition era to support image playgrounds and writing tools. Um, very
00:08:33 ◼ ► much an Apple app now, if you needed any, if you needed any proof, uh, very much an Apple
00:08:39 ◼ ► app. Nice. Nice. Support the, support our APIs, please. Yes. Pixelmator team. I mean, this
00:08:51 ◼ ► may be as part of the, like, I work organization because like pages and numbers and stuff always
00:08:58 ◼ ► get at, they always get these kinds of features added. Yeah. Right. And this feels like the
00:09:03 ◼ ► kind of thing you would do to pages, numbers, keynote, et cetera. Structurally, I don't know
00:09:09 ◼ ► if it's with that group or if it's with the, uh, you know, the group that does logic and
00:09:19 ◼ ► group. Basically. So weird, you know, separate apps, separate apps group. I don't know. But
00:09:24 ◼ ► it's like, you know, they have, they probably have guidelines for those applications about
00:09:26 ◼ ► the things that they need to support and Pixelmator appears at least because I don't even know where
00:09:32 ◼ ► you'd put writing tools in Pixelmator. What they all have in common is that they're downloadable
00:09:37 ◼ ► and not, uh, part of system updates, right? Yeah. Which is what makes them different from like the
00:09:41 ◼ ► Photos app, which is in the OS. Uh, Apple has joined threads. Uh, there is now an Apple account,
00:09:48 ◼ ► uh, on threads. There had previously been a bunch of service-based accounts. So music, news, podcasts,
00:09:54 ◼ ► and stuff, but now they have a main brand account. They haven't posted anything. Uh, but this is making
00:10:00 ◼ ► news. People are wondering if Apple are finally going to be abandoning X or lessening their presence
00:10:06 ◼ ► on X. Uh, I reckon my take on this, uh, is that this is in anticipation of ads on threads and that Apple
00:10:16 ◼ ► wants to be an ad buyer on threads. That's, that's what I reckon is going on. It makes sense. That makes sense.
00:10:20 ◼ ► I don't, for whatever reason, they still want to post sold on X and I don't, I don't see it changing. Um,
00:10:29 ◼ ► because it hasn't after all this time. You still using threads? Yes, I am. Uh, I post to it. Um,
00:10:38 ◼ ► it's actually the network where I have the largest following of all the text place social networks. I think just
00:10:42 ◼ ► because it's attached to my Instagram. Um, I use threads as kind of like, uh, for what it is, which is purely
00:10:52 ◼ ► algorithmic. Like I get a lot of F1 news on threads, for example, because like they know I like F1. And
00:10:58 ◼ ► so I get a lot out there, but, um, blue sky is, is, is my favorite, uh, of these kind of networks at the
00:11:05 ◼ ► moment. Cause it's, it's giving me the main crossover of all of the people that I want to follow, uh, from
00:11:10 ◼ ► my tech world, gaming world and general kind of world. Yeah. Blue sky is the one that I'm using the
00:11:15 ◼ ► most. I'm not using threads at all at this point. Um, blue sky, uh, has a serviceable number of sports
00:11:22 ◼ ► writers, which is my biggest problem with completely dropping X is that all the, you know, big media
00:11:29 ◼ ► sports writers and people are posting on there, but a bunch of them are on blue sky now. So I have a
00:11:34 ◼ ► sports list on blue sky, which is great. And then Mastodon is where all my tech people are. And that's
00:11:38 ◼ ► great too. But, um, I just think it's funny that we have this, all these conversations about threads
00:11:43 ◼ ► and all that. And I'm just, and they've, they've added some things and delayed some things in terms
00:11:48 ◼ ► of Fediverse sharing all that. And it's like, I'm, I'm kind of, I kind of just don't care.
00:11:52 ◼ ► It seems successful enough, but it's like, yeah. Also I just have, you know, it's like, oh boy,
00:11:58 ◼ ► um, back in the arms of Facebook, which I've been running away from for all these years. So I'm not,
00:12:07 ◼ ► Yeah. The tenor and tone on Facebook shifted again. It kind of felt like it was like shifting
00:12:11 ◼ ► a little bit, right? Like, oh, are they actually caught? No, no, they're not. You know, like it
00:12:17 ◼ ► was like, Hey, hang on a minute. No, they're not. Uh, a U S federal judge has rejected Apple's attempt
00:12:23 ◼ ► to have the department of justice's lawsuit dismissed. So that's going to be continuing. So
00:12:28 ◼ ► we have that in our future. Uh, and unsurprisingly, Apple has appealed the 500 million euro fine that
00:12:34 ◼ ► they received from the EU over DMA anti-steering stuff. Um, this is a quote from an Apple spokesperson
00:12:41 ◼ ► today. We filed our appeal because we believe the European commissioners decision and their
00:12:45 ◼ ► unprecedented fine go far beyond what the law requires. As our appeal will show the EC is
00:12:51 ◼ ► mandating how we run our store and forcing business terms, which are confusing for developers and bad
00:12:56 ◼ ► for users. We implemented this to avoid punitive daily fines and we'll share facts with the court.
00:13:02 ◼ ► I wanted to include this because I thought this quote was interesting because it gives a little
00:13:06 ◼ ► bit of context to what we're talking about last week, which is those new confusing rules. Apple say
00:13:11 ◼ ► there are those confusing because that's what the European commission wants them to do. And also the
00:13:16 ◼ ► only reason they made that change is so they weren't going to continue getting the daily fines.
00:13:20 ◼ ► I have two thoughts about this. One is that classic line. I'm just here. So I won't get fined. Um,
00:13:26 ◼ ► and also I love it when Apple explains why their terms are confusing, which is so they cannot,
00:13:32 ◼ ► which is either depending on your view, because the EC made, made it confusing or because Apple wanted to
00:13:38 ◼ ► make it confusing. So they can complain, look, we're forced to make it confusing. One of those.
00:13:43 ◼ ► I still think my, I think it's in the middle, which is if you implement the rules to the exact letter of
00:13:52 ◼ ► the legal language that they are written in from the European commission, you can make a set of rules
00:13:58 ◼ ► that are very confusing. If you took the spirit of the rule, you could maybe make something less
00:14:03 ◼ ► confusing. Uh, that's what, that's my read on it anyway. Um, so there we go. And F1 has now grossed
00:14:11 ◼ ► $293 million, uh, as of last week, um, over the weekend, sorry. So it's doing the job. Like I'm
00:14:19 ◼ ► not going to keep giving updates on this, but like, we've had the full kind of like big holiday weekend
00:14:23 ◼ ► and like week or whatever up to this point. Uh, yeah. From when it came out to now, it's like a week
00:14:29 ◼ ► and change. Um, and it's doing great. So congratulations. Yeah. Congratulations. You did it,
00:14:38 ◼ ► but it's good though. Right. Cause it means that they're not going to implode Apple TV.
00:14:41 ◼ ► Like this is now like they found, they have now found that it is possible for them to make a movie
00:14:48 ◼ ► and put it in theaters and make money on that movie. Now, is it enough money? No, but they don't also
00:14:55 ◼ ► have to spend like 250 to $300 million on every movie. Like they don't actually all need that.
00:15:01 ◼ ► this movie did, but you could maybe spend $150 million on a movie, market it really well and
00:15:08 ◼ ► make back your money faster. Right? Like maybe there's, there is the proof now that this could
00:15:13 ◼ ► be done. Yeah. I mean, I feel like all it really proves is that Apple is not the kiss of death to
00:15:17 ◼ ► a movie in theaters that it can make money, generate revenue and be a success. I'm not sure that this is
00:15:27 ◼ ► this isn't unique. It's showing that when they actually put a real marketing effort behind a
00:15:32 ◼ ► movie, they can get people to go see that movie. Like, because the other movies that they've had,
00:15:37 ◼ ► they have not put a big market marketing spend behind them and they've not given them proper runs
00:15:42 ◼ ► in theaters or whatever. Right. It's like limited run or like, Hey, here's some ads on a bus. It's like,
00:15:47 ◼ ► no, they went full court press, like everything, everything possible as a normal movie studio would
00:15:53 ◼ ► do. Right. That if you think you've got a movie that can make money, you market it to its, to the
00:15:57 ◼ ► nth degree. And they did that. And they said, man, Warner Brothers, right? Because Warner Brothers is
00:16:01 ◼ ► doing the theatrical distribution, but they, they, they did that and, and working as a partner. And yeah,
00:16:06 ◼ ► it, it, I feel like it doesn't prove that this is the right strategy, but it does prove that,
00:16:10 ◼ ► like I said, Apple is not incapable of doing this. I don't know if that's a great lesson to be
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00:18:19 ◼ ► You wrote a really good piece on six colors where you were kind of expanding on some of the things that
00:18:26 ◼ ► we spoke about, but I think the thing that is pertinent for discussion today is you did some benchmarks.
00:18:31 ◼ ► Well, I mean, I took existing benchmark numbers and put them together. It was that moment of realization.
00:18:37 ◼ ► So we talked about this last week. This is the Ming-Chi Kuo report that's been sort of backed up by some
00:18:41 ◼ ► other people spelunking in code that there is an A18 Pro powered MacBook on the way, a low-cost MacBook,
00:18:47 ◼ ► and how I felt like this was very much... In fact, the piece I wrote is specifically just parroting the title
00:19:00 ◼ ► And now it's about that A18 Pro MacBook rumor because it's the same story as that DigiTimes report from late 2023,
00:19:16 ◼ ► And I still feel that way. And it seems like the M1 Air at Walmart has been around for a while
00:19:22 ◼ ► and is still out there at 649 that people are like, oh, that is kind of an interesting model for Apple
00:19:31 ◼ ► And I have lots of questions that I don't have answers for, but I wonder about the production line of chips, right?
00:19:47 ◼ ► I don't know if at some point the volume is so low that the production line is not worth keeping.
00:19:55 ◼ ► And then meanwhile, and this was my thought process here, because I talked about it with you,
00:19:59 ◼ ► I talked about it on MacBreak. I spent a lot of time talking about it and realized I hadn't written a word about it.
00:20:27 ◼ ► It's literally the chip that's in my iPhone 16 Pro, right here, that I'm holding in my hand.
00:20:42 ◼ ► So when I like reviewed the MacBook Air M4 and I found the A18 Pro Geekbench numbers and I plugged them in to a version of that same chart.
00:21:35 ◼ ► But still, an A18 Pro is almost exactly the same multi-core performance as in an iPhone, which has no cooling like a MacBook Air, right?
00:21:58 ◼ ► They're both slightly, in sort of general, this set of test numbers, and test numbers can vary a little bit.
00:22:07 ◼ ► And a single core performance, which in many cases is the most important, because it's a single burst of activity, especially on a low-end computer.
00:22:31 ◼ ► And probably get some benefits in terms of shutting down the M1 production line, in terms of the volume that they're making the A18 Pro chip for this year's phones and maybe even for future phones down the road.
00:22:47 ◼ ► And it also says to me, it makes this product continue to be viable, because once they do this, they can probably just keep putting in other phone chips over time.
00:23:08 ◼ ► And this has answered my question, which is that for single-core use, which, as you say, is like, realistically for this computer, the majority of its work will be single-core work.
00:23:26 ◼ ► And certainly, if you even it out, because the other ones, it's slower than the M2, right?
00:23:31 ◼ ► But if you even it all out, and you think about the M1, which they're still selling, and again, we would all argue is great, this one does the job.
00:23:44 ◼ ► And I think what I came back to, and I think I mentioned in the piece, I keep thinking of the fact that I think Apple Silicon is just so good that they built a base model chip, and it's so good.
00:24:02 ◼ ► So good, in fact, that I think it's very clear that Apple's cheapest Mac, cheapest Mac laptop, anyway, is not, it used to be the bare minimum, right?
00:24:17 ◼ ► And the one time that I think they went below it was with that, the MacBook, the 12-inch MacBook, which was really slow, and it had some serious issues.
00:24:37 ◼ ► And if that's true, then there's an inefficiency in the market that Apple could probably address.
00:24:41 ◼ ► And what is a very Tim Cook thing, I would say, is they've been experimenting by addressing it with an old system sold through a weird channel.
00:25:01 ◼ ► But if somebody said, I can't spend $1,000 on a computer, but I went to Walmart and there was a Mac for $6.49, I'd say, yeah, get it.
00:25:18 ◼ ► Our video version on YouTube, which is mostly processed in the cloud, but it's edited and all of that by our video expert, Jamie.
00:25:40 ◼ ► One was from an anonymous person who says, as I've mentioned before, I used to be a chip designer.
00:25:56 ◼ ► The only detail that I wanted to add is I think the 3nm A18 Pro has about a 15% smaller die size than the 5nm M1.
00:26:04 ◼ ► It's possible that even though the 3nm process is more expensive than the 5nm process, the effective cost of an A18 Pro may be very close to that of the base M1.
00:26:27 ◼ ► I believe strongly that Apple and TSMC are constantly having conversations about optimizing the production line, right?
00:26:38 ◼ ► Apple and TSMC have to work out when they shut a line down, when they stop producing a processor.
00:26:48 ◼ ► And one of the pieces of speculation I gave at the time was we don't even know if they're still making it or if they just have a bunch and they know how many of that product they sell.
00:27:05 ◼ ► They may know exactly how many M1 MacBook Airs they're going to sell and how many they've got in a box.
00:27:16 ◼ ► And so they've been working in the background because they liked how that went, which I really do think is what's going on here, to take it wide.
00:27:41 ◼ ► And they're like, if you're going to come to Apple.com, we want you buying a $999 MacBook Air, not a $700 MacBook.
00:28:10 ◼ ► But I think it's, I think it's, I love that a person who actually knows what they're talking about said I was right.
00:28:16 ◼ ► And Vibead wrote in to say, another thing that could add legitimacy to the rumor is macOS 27, so that's next year,
00:28:24 ◼ ► is slated to drop support for Rosetta 2, which uses hardware accelerators on the M-series chips for x86 translation.
00:28:31 ◼ ► Removing support for Rosetta 2 means that the A18 MacBook is not decontented compared to the M-series MacBooks running the same operating system.
00:28:42 ◼ ► I'm not sure whether it means that Rosetta 2 wouldn't work on this or that it wouldn't work well on this.
00:28:48 ◼ ► But regardless, if it's a $700 laptop that doesn't support Intel apps or support them well, if you need that, buy the $1,000 laptop.
00:29:05 ◼ ► I think the transition has been successful, and I feel like the only apps that are left with Intel being the primary,
00:29:15 ◼ ► like being the architecture underneath, they're pretty specialist would be my expectation, right?
00:29:20 ◼ ► I would feel like most apps that most people would use have moved over to Apple Silicon.
00:29:31 ◼ ► It's like, yes, this would actually be a decent time to do it because Apple is moving away from Rosetta 2.
00:29:38 ◼ ► And this is the long game that Apple plays with chip transitions, which is, this is the hammer, but it comes five years later.
00:29:52 ◼ ► It's hard to say, okay, we'll give you Intel compatibility for a year, but then everybody has to switch.
00:29:58 ◼ ► All the developers are like, but we have these code bases and people rely on blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:30:10 ◼ ► But when they come to us now and say next year, no more Rosetta, the arguments don't hold water, I feel like.
00:30:25 ◼ ► And, and, and that Intel Mac apps now have reached the point where as of next year, um, more than a year away from when they ship, like it's reached the point where you're going to need to stay back on Tahoe.
00:30:41 ◼ ► And like, because you're basically choosing, you're like, I have to step off the software cycle because I have old software that I need to run.
00:30:54 ◼ ► It's visible with Intel apps, but like this happens all the time where people stay back because there's a key app that is not updated for the new thing.
00:31:19 ◼ ► So, I mean, the, the hammer is going to come down at a point where, I mean, this is the, this is the best transition.
00:31:25 ◼ ► The best transition is where you, you, uh, get to the point where the transition happens and nobody cares anymore.
00:31:33 ◼ ► And that feels like this is going to be, it's going to go so long that by the time we get there, it's not really going to matter.
00:31:41 ◼ ► So after a week of letting the news, uh, kind of sink in on this, uh, why don't we look towards the summer of fun and build what we think is the perfect MacBook?
00:31:57 ◼ ► They had a round robin draft where they made what they thought was like a terrible MacBook.
00:32:08 ◼ ► I'm always happy when other tech podcasts draft things because it shows our, our, uh, in influence and, uh, benevolence, frankly.
00:32:32 ◼ ► So kind of like the way this thing is built and looks, I will start the bidding at essentially the MacBook, the plastic MacBook, but in color.
00:32:59 ◼ ► Um, I would also argue that at this point, the aluminum laptop is Apple's biggest product thing on the Mac.
00:33:34 ◼ ► So my, my questions are, first off, what we know is every time you do a new production line and you do a new design, the price goes up, right?
00:33:43 ◼ ► The cost to manufacture goes up and then over years, it comes down, but there's an initial cost and you kind of amortize it.
00:33:53 ◼ ► So I don't know enough about this to say, like, for example, is there an older, um, design that they've got that's cheaper?
00:34:05 ◼ ► Like, you know, an older MacBook air design even, but what I keep coming back to is just that this project should be.
00:34:22 ◼ ► How do we tweak the M1 air entirely, not just the chassis, the whole thing to be, um, future proof, right?
00:34:34 ◼ ► To be able to go into the future as a, as a modern computer, because if I, my guess is if they want this to be cheap,
00:34:43 ◼ ► what they want to do is keep as much of the M1 air production line as possible, because if they throw it away, we all want to see a brand new computer.
00:34:50 ◼ ► We all want to see a plastic MacBook or a, or, or something like the 12 inch MacBook design.
00:34:55 ◼ ► But I, my gut feeling is that doing a new design and a new production line adds so much more expense that they're not going to be able to hit their price point.
00:35:07 ◼ ► And if you want, if this is all about hitting a price point, that's, that's like sort of, at least like the M1 air is at Walmart.
00:35:31 ◼ ► Uh, like if they're going to put this on apple.com, which I think they will, I don't know if they will want to use the M1 air design.
00:35:56 ◼ ► So my question is, is the M2 chassis, um, more or less expensive to build than the M1 and talk about production lines.
00:36:06 ◼ ► Is it easier to keep the, to do a decontented M234 MacBook air and, and that production line than to keep the M1 air running?
00:36:19 ◼ ► I don't know if there are fundamental things about the M2 airs aluminum that make it, that make it more expensive than the M1 is to manufacture.
00:36:38 ◼ ► I'm not, I'm not worried about that because it's gonna be cheap and probably anodized into some fun, you know, put an asterisk next to fun colors.
00:36:53 ◼ ► And if it's cheaper to leave, to use the M234 air production line to make these things, and they're basically a variant in the existing MacBook air design, they could do that.
00:37:03 ◼ ► I actually would be more worried that it looks like a MacBook air, a current MacBook air from Apple than that.
00:37:10 ◼ ► It looks like the old design because if it's the old design, you can tell it's not the current MacBook air.
00:37:16 ◼ ► It's a different product and, um, you know, and we don't know anything about the, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll get to the rest of the computer here.
00:37:23 ◼ ► But, but, um, just for the, for the kind of physical design of it, you know, I would probably look, if I were inside at Apple, the answer would be, what's the cheapest way for us to make this product.
00:37:43 ◼ ► I know the SE went up in price, but like, if, if you are confident that you will make, like, if you can project out the money you're going to make on this thing over the next 10 years, maybe you do spend a little bit of money in the tool to create a new thing.
00:37:58 ◼ ► I mean, you risk, you risk having it cost more than you want, which is a question, right?
00:38:05 ◼ ► Like maybe there's no way for them to make anything, but that M1 at 649 and they're, they're blowing out the last of their parts for that.
00:38:35 ◼ ► It would really surprise me if they released a new computer that looked exactly like the M1 MacBook Air.
00:38:41 ◼ ► I would, I would be surprised about that because also they, well, I mean, and this also actually undoes my point about basing on the M2 as well.
00:39:09 ◼ ► So look, if, if I had my druthers, I would say make a new aluminum design that is reminiscent of the M4 Air, 234 Air, but is a little bit different.
00:39:26 ◼ ► If I'm looking at spreadsheets at Apple and the answer is make some minor modifications to the M1 Air design and keep selling it as MacBook because the MacBook Air looks different now.
00:39:38 ◼ ► We haven't even talked about the, the thing that's hanging over this product, which is, do you just call it a MacBook Air?
00:39:50 ◼ ► I wouldn't do that either because I think then more people will buy it and you don't really want MacBook Air users to buy it.
00:40:09 ◼ ► Whether, you know, I don't know how many they're going to put on it, but they're not going to be Thunderbolt, right?
00:40:38 ◼ ► Or again, look, if the M1 Air product line could be retasked relatively inexpensively to
00:40:45 ◼ ► assemble something that was similar, like the old 12-inch MacBook design, because you could
00:41:10 ◼ ► But in the end, I feel like Apple's going to make the most price expedient decision going
00:41:38 ◼ ► But I feel like Apple's stock and trade at this point is aluminum and anodizing aluminum.
00:41:44 ◼ ► So maybe, you know, in the end, if you want a colorful Mac laptop, you're going to have
00:41:53 ◼ ► If the MacBook Air, which I would argue shouldn't have dark colors, but if the MacBook Air has
00:41:57 ◼ ► dark colors and the MacBook has bright colors, regardless of what it looks like, it will be
00:42:27 ◼ ► Look, for those of us who use our computers all the time, as heavy users of them, on battery,
00:42:50 ◼ ► So you could make the battery physically smaller and keep a similar amount of battery life time.
00:42:54 ◼ ► Keep a decent amount of quoted battery life, 15 hours or something, 14 hours, and dramatically
00:43:38 ◼ ► This is absolutely, in my mind, a place where they cheap out on, like they would cheap out on the webcam.
00:43:43 ◼ ► They've been cheap webcamming for ages and only recently have made their webcams better.
00:43:47 ◼ ► So why wouldn't they just say, look, the point here is not to have the really nice webcam we put in other things.
00:44:08 ◼ ► What do you think we're going to end up with or could end up with on a product like this?
00:44:39 ◼ ► I do, however, think that it's going to, again, everything, not knowing the prices, we can't play the prices right here, right?
00:44:50 ◼ ► But that's what I want to know is how expensive it is to put MagSafe on a computer and put a MagSafe cable in the box versus some other approach where you just do one USB-C or two USB-Cs.
00:45:06 ◼ ► And that's an open question for me because whatever is cheaper, I would say, is what they're going to do.
00:45:22 ◼ ► Yeah, but that was such a death now in that computer amongst all the other things, right?
00:45:38 ◼ ► And I would be really surprised if they were like, hey, you have one USB-C port and that's the whole thing.
00:45:48 ◼ ► And is the cost of the fact that defrayed by the fact that they've been shipping it for a while on the M2 so they can put it in?
00:45:59 ◼ ► I just, I don't think it's beyond them to release a 649 laptop with one port, but the M1 Air has two.
00:46:12 ◼ ► But then I think a lot of the questions that I have about the makeup of this computer come back to, well, then why do it at all, right?
00:46:24 ◼ ► Like, if you're going to make it worse than the M1 Air in some respects, why even do this?
00:46:49 ◼ ► I think that that would be the argument is, let's try not to make it appreciably worse.
00:46:53 ◼ ► And then the question for me becomes, is it two USB-C ports or is it a USB-C port in MagSafe?
00:47:02 ◼ ► And I think that comes down to price, but I think it also comes down to what that chip is capable of.
00:47:07 ◼ ► If the chip is not capable of, and I just don't know enough about USB-C and the implementation on that chip, the A18, to know if it's capable of two.
00:47:18 ◼ ► If it's capable of two, though, it would be very easy to just do two USB-C, just like the M1 Air, and you charge on one of them, and there's no MagSafe.
00:47:26 ◼ ► I think that, so Zoe in the discourse making a good point, which is that the battery life now is better than it was with the MacBook, the 12-inch MacBook.
00:47:40 ◼ ► And it will become so easy for the story to be like, oh, you can't even charge and plug anything in, even if you wouldn't do it.
00:47:52 ◼ ► And you end up making people question whether this computer would work for them in a way that you don't really want them to be asking that question.
00:48:01 ◼ ► And I think if you say to people, you can charge it and plug in peripherals via USB-C, you've kind of removed that point from people's minds.
00:48:12 ◼ ► I don't think that a lot of customers in this area are like, but can I plug two things in?
00:48:18 ◼ ► No, you just have an option to plug something in by USB-C while you're charging your computer.
00:48:23 ◼ ► I think that is just an easy story to tell rather than like the story they tried to tell last time, which didn't work for various reasons, but it also just didn't work on the face of it before people had used it, right?
00:49:25 ◼ ► It's just you don't include stuff like the charger, and they already do that on other devices.
00:49:30 ◼ ► You bring the price down in so many ways, like so many imperceptible ways to the consumer.
00:49:37 ◼ ► And I know many people notice, but obviously you've not made the thing, right, which is like a whole separate process.
00:49:49 ◼ ► Then they are easier and cheaper to ship because they take up less physical space because the boxes are smaller.
00:49:56 ◼ ► And they're lighter because there's less battery, and the weight makes them easier to ship as well.
00:50:13 ◼ ► The other thing, I don't know if I mentioned this here last week, but the other thing that struck me just as a drive-by is I don't know what the TSMC factory in Arizona is going to be able to produce.
00:50:32 ◼ ► Is this the kind of thing that ends up getting some chips that are produced in the U.S. and possibly assembled in the U.S. for non-profit margin reasons, right, for tariff and politics reasons?
00:50:45 ◼ ► I don't think – I feel like a laptop is complicated enough that probably not, but who knows about that?
00:51:01 ◼ ► I realize that the A18 Pro is actually made with the newest 3-nanometer process from TSMC, but, you know, today's cutting-edge process is tomorrow's legacy node.
00:51:24 ◼ ► You could put it anywhere and just say today's cutting-edge is tomorrow's legacy node, and people will be very confused.
00:52:57 ◼ ► That is the counterargument to more severely decontenting it and turning it into an M1 Air,
00:53:17 ◼ ► Or is the goal to just create some space under the MacBook Air to fulfill a market that you
00:53:45 ◼ ► So if the whole SE and 16E have taught us anything, it's probably that Apple's willing to go down,
00:53:59 ◼ ► And if they're going to go – honestly, I could even argue if they're going to go to the trouble of making a new product,
00:54:20 ◼ ► because we don't know if Apple's going to raise prices, because that's a great mystery as well.
00:54:27 ◼ ► is it allows Apple to keep a laptop sub $1,000 if they end up having to, due to tariffs,
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00:57:35 ◼ ► And Apple believes that running the models on its own chips housed in Apple-controlled cloud servers,
00:58:12 ◼ ► A lot of speculation about what this means for the people working on LLMs inside of Apple.
00:58:39 ◼ ► And I'm going to say, there's a way to do this where you can inspire the people who are working for you.
00:58:48 ◼ ► we're talking to OpenAI and Anthropic because right now they produce better results than we do.
00:59:54 ◼ ► And we have proven that what we're great at is making some specific models for Apple for specific tasks.
01:00:04 ◼ ► Not the general model, which you could even, you know, downplay it and say, it's not the mission critical model.
01:00:15 ◼ ► Now, if they don't believe you, if they, if they don't believe that they're ever going to catch up, that they're good enough, or if they think that they are good enough and they're not, you don't, you don't want those people working for you.
01:00:32 ◼ ► If they, if they don't think that Apple can have a better model, uh, if they think they should just go somewhere else, you, you want, you, you actually don't want them around because, because I don't think this story is necessarily, oh, Apple has a bunch of brilliant people and they've got, they got mismanaged.
01:00:48 ◼ ► I think it's also possible that Apple doesn't have people who are up to the task and the way as a manager, I mean, you need to hire and you need to find good people and you need to empower your best people to do their best work, right?
01:00:59 ◼ ► But part of that has to be, um, we're not going to let our product suffer because you guys are behind.
01:01:09 ◼ ► Don't, don't sacrifice the user experience because, I mean, this is mean, but because you're trying to make a bunch of people feel better about themselves.
01:01:16 ◼ ► Like that's, you're kind of weighing a billion against a thousand at that point, you know, like it was what you're saying, right?
01:01:42 ◼ ► But yeah, just, I think, I mean, again, there are ways you think of it and there are ways you phrase it to your employees in order to motivate them.
01:01:49 ◼ ► But what, what I would say is it feels to me like the lesson of the last six months in terms of the changes that they've made at the top of the software and machine learning hierarchies is that.
01:02:05 ◼ ► Uh, yeah, Apple's products are paramount and hurting, hurting the feelings of the people working on the models or shipping inferior models because we don't want to hurt their feelings or because they're from Apple and making our product inferior because of that is not acceptable.
01:02:32 ◼ ► If you're, if you're a manager at Apple and you're like, well, we could ship this Siri, which doesn't work and it's going to take us another two years or, and maybe it'll work or maybe it won't, or we could integrate with a third party and ship this Siri next year and it's going to be good.
01:02:52 ◼ ► You can't say the cook, the Tim cook doctrine that people like to talk about is not Apple should own its own key technologies, even if it makes their products bad.
01:03:07 ◼ ► There are some very specific reasons why that happened, but suffice it to say, Apple maps shipping was not viewed as a victory by Apple because it wasn't good enough.
01:03:23 ◼ ► This is, and I think, and I think somebody on a podcast last week referred to it as the reverse Apple maps.
01:03:32 ◼ ► That's the way to think of this is the, the old reverse Apple maps, which is we need a thing for now.
01:03:43 ◼ ► Although I will also say there's another way to spin this, which is those guys are good at this one thing.
01:03:51 ◼ ► And then we're going to focus on the models that make the iPhone and the Mac and the iPad unique and build those.
01:03:59 ◼ ► And I think Rockwell, especially who was put in charge of Siri, we know the story there, right?
01:04:05 ◼ ► We know the story that Rockwell was very frustrated because he thought, I think rightly, that voice control would be a great asset for the Vision Pro.
01:04:27 ◼ ► Rockwell felt like the Vision Pro was a worse product because he got let down by the Siri team.
01:04:38 ◼ ► But it, it speaks to the idea that in the end, the quality of the product you ship matters, not where the technology comes from.
01:04:49 ◼ ► And your message internally is, of course, we don't want to be using open air, but like, seriously, if there's anybody inside the, the group who is like, but ours is just as good as theirs.
01:05:08 ◼ ► If there's anybody that diluted and that's my fear is that there are people in the group that have been told that they're doing good work.
01:05:14 ◼ ► And if they're not doing good work, they need to be told that, uh, that's where Apple is on, on this point.
01:05:23 ◼ ► Like we're making great progress, but we're not ready to replace Siri next year from this progress.
01:05:29 ◼ ► So, so like, again, as soon we're hard, part of the pitches, as soon as we can do this ourselves, let's do it ourselves, but we can't do it ourselves now.
01:05:38 ◼ ► One of the things you're going to hear is, but I was told we were going to do it this way.
01:05:47 ◼ ► And like, I'm not going to blame you, but you know, you can make excuses, but in the end, it's very clear where we need to go.
01:05:58 ◼ ► We want, and we want, I think one of the great advantages of being a manager in this situation is of course, Apple wants to build its own thing.
01:06:10 ◼ ► And, uh, we need to make that a goal, but in the meantime, we're going to be pragmatic and we're going to use partners.
01:06:25 ◼ ► And all of these companies are, are, are competing with Google who owns their own smartphone platform.
01:06:30 ◼ ► So Apple's actually in an advantageous point here where these other companies would really like to partner with Apple about this stuff.
01:06:43 ◼ ► And the only real fear is that Apple will become beholden to them and will be unable to catch up with them.
01:06:51 ◼ ► And I mean, that's bad in so many ways, but you have to bet on your ability to catch up with them.
01:07:00 ◼ ► So DigiTimes is reporting from its supply chain sources that Apple is moving the folding iPhone to prototyping stage with a launch looking schedule for 2026.
01:07:10 ◼ ► If this kind of, uh, usual flow kind of, uh, bears out from where they go from like prototyping to engineering sample, et cetera.
01:07:23 ◼ ► Apparently they're facing manufacturing difficulties and presumably are putting their focus into the iPhone.
01:07:30 ◼ ► Um, they've also seems, it seems to suggest, uh, or at least the DigiTimes rumor states that the expense and also demand of a product like this could see to it being deprioritized.
01:07:42 ◼ ► I wonder if maybe like if you ship a folding iPhone and it's successful, maybe you make a folding iPad more desirable, right?
01:08:06 ◼ ► This is the, what, what is this is the giant foldable iPad that can be like a laptop or is it a foldable Mac book or what?
01:08:19 ◼ ► I mean, cause maybe they've got an amazing vision for it, but it's also possible that they're experimenting with technology.
01:08:25 ◼ ► That might be possible and not actually solving a problem of a product that needs to exist.
01:08:46 ◼ ► But what, what are you just like, iPad turns into big, like 10, 11 inch iPad turns into 13 inch iPad.
01:08:58 ◼ ► I will, I will say iPadOS 26 makes more sense for me now of why you might want to have a bigger screen than like iPadOS 18 did.
01:09:21 ◼ ► Bloomberg is reporting that Foxconn has recalled engineers and technicians from their facilities in India back to China.
01:09:28 ◼ ► Apparently this has been going on slowly for the last two months with now 300 people leaving the India site.
01:09:35 ◼ ► At this time, it's mostly support staff that remain at Foxconn from the people that were brought in.
01:09:43 ◼ ► So I think they said in the article that there are people from Taiwan that are like support staff at Foxconn that remain in India,
01:09:58 ◼ ► But it presumably leaves Apple in a tough spot on their plan for manufacturing the iPhone 17 for America in India, which was the plan.
01:10:18 ◼ ► And the article says that basically the Chinese government has told the Indian government that they're doing this and it's just happening.
01:10:27 ◼ ► And like notification was given between the two governments, but none of the companies involved are talking.
01:10:38 ◼ ► This to me feels like that kind of like a house of cards style stuff that you just don't see.
01:10:47 ◼ ► Like there are conversations happening between behind closed doors between all these countries.
01:11:01 ◼ ► And Mai Jin Bu has shared some new renders of the iPhone 17 Pro based information they've gathered from the supply chain.
01:11:09 ◼ ► I want to get a vibe check from us both on how we feel about what is considered to be about as state of the art as iPhone 17 renders are.
01:11:24 ◼ ► So it's an all-aluminum phone, is where the rumors are, with a glass portion on the back.
01:11:29 ◼ ► This gives a two-tone look, but also allows for like charging and antennas and all that kind of stuff to work through the glass.
01:11:37 ◼ ► And a camera bar, which essentially extends the camera portion, the camera bump, all the way across the top of the phone.
01:11:48 ◼ ► It keeps the cameras essentially in the same place, but just moves the flash and the LIDAR sensor all the way to the right and the microphone.
01:12:04 ◼ ► So it is now centered in the new glass panel, which occupies about two-thirds of the phone, rather than it being centered in the middle of the iPhone as it currently is.
01:12:16 ◼ ► I mean, having the bump go all the way across is good in the sense that it means that the phone will be more stable when you lay it down, because it will have sort of like a tall part and a short part.
01:12:28 ◼ ► And it also might be a nice kind of ledge for holding the phone, too, like depending on how, where you hold your phone.
01:12:53 ◼ ► It's like, we made such a big deal out of titanium, and now we're moving back to aluminium.
01:13:15 ◼ ► But I like that this phone's going to look pretty different, especially to somebody who
01:13:22 ◼ ► I like that this is, this phone, I like that this phone will have some visual flair to it,
01:13:29 ◼ ► Like, make it feel a bit new and fresh and still intrigued about the, I feel like I'm going
01:13:35 ◼ ► to have a real complicated buying process with the iPhone line because I'm really intrigued
01:14:10 ◼ ► That's my concern about it, is a little contrast back there could be really interesting.
01:14:16 ◼ ► Again, it's like, if you gave us the kind of contrast we got on the iMac, right, that could
01:14:34 ◼ ► In business, they say you can have better, cheaper, or faster, but you only get to pick
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01:15:20 ◼ ► Well, in test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other
01:16:32 ◼ ► Is there any concern about Liquid Glass's high GPU requirements cutting off older devices?
01:16:47 ◼ ► And I assume that, you know, Apple has made the cutoffs specifically thinking about the GPU issues involved.
01:17:05 ◼ ► If they don't like it, they'll either optimize it or they'll turn it off for some models.
01:17:21 ◼ ► And he says, he's obviously on the beta, says it runs fine, but you can tell you're at the edge, basically.
01:18:01 ◼ ► And I really don't need everybody to write in and tell me about their, like, uncle, Bob, who's been using a phone for 10 years.
01:18:12 ◼ ► But, like, I just think, realistically, the person that is using a phone that's 10 years old is maybe not that fussed about, like, being on the most recent version of iOS 26.
01:18:24 ◼ ► Like, you know, and I, look, I understand that there are, but, like, I just think that you could get yourself into an older phone.
01:18:32 ◼ ► Like, you don't even need to buy the newest phone, and you would get a decent deal on it.
01:18:41 ◼ ► I was thinking, not to step on a philosophical landmine here, but I was thinking about this the other day, that there's this whole debate about, like, subscribing to things versus buying things.
01:19:11 ◼ ► But how long do you have that car divided by what you paid for it, and, you know, you can subtract out what you sell it back for, is what you paid.
01:19:23 ◼ ► You know what it is up front, but you paid for it, and then you have to pay for maintenance.
01:19:47 ◼ ► It's always been this way, because there's always a new thing, and there's always a new OS, and there's always a new version, and if you're somebody who would say, yeah, but, you know, now there's security updates that you only get for two years and all that.
01:19:57 ◼ ► It's like, well, that's true, but it's always been like, well, that's true, but it's always been the case that if you're somebody who decides to pull up stakes and just kind of go off on your own with an old computer and old software and use it forever, you can do it.
01:20:13 ◼ ► But most people don't do that, because that's just not how it works, because the companies that make the products still need your money, and that's just the reality of it.
01:20:21 ◼ ► So I agree with you, as long as a five- or six-year-old iPhone that's supported doesn't, like, become unusably slow because of liquid glass, I don't think it's a big deal.
01:20:32 ◼ ► And I would, again, I would argue that the most likely scenario in that case, and something that Apple has done in the past, is certain effects are disabled on older models in order for them to run smoothly.
01:20:52 ◼ ► And also, we come back to this thing that, like, over and over again, we all have our anecdotal stuff, but Apple knows this more than anybody else, right?
01:20:59 ◼ ► And, like, they want people using their operating system, and so they know what the cycles are for the vast majority of their customers, and they target to that.
01:21:20 ◼ ► I would love it if this fall we got the brand new iPhone 26 Pro running iOS 26 using the amazing new A26 processor.
01:21:40 ◼ ► Having these two-digit numbers where it's three different ones and moving to 26 for the OS's doesn't change the fact that you've got an A18 chip in an iPhone 16, which is too close.
01:22:05 ◼ ► But, I mean, I think I should get rid of the number from the iPhone anyway, but if you're going to keep the numbering, you should just move them all.
01:22:35 ◼ ► And Thomas asks, if macOS is working towards touch support, do you think it could show up before the MacBook Pros go to OLED, or do you think they would likely wait and roll them out together?
01:22:46 ◼ ► There's no point in doing touch support unless Apple is shipping a brand new design that's got a touchscreen in it, and the existing MacBook Pros aren't going to get a touchscreen because they wouldn't add that until they change the display.
01:22:59 ◼ ► Yeah, I think I'm agreeing with you by saying, I think the next big update to the MacBook Pro, which I think is within the next couple of years, will get a touchscreen, and it will also be OLED.
01:23:16 ◼ ► And so that would be my guess, is that they'll announce macOS 27, and then when they roll these products out, there'll be some new touch APIs that just get added with 27.1, and that'll be that.
01:23:37 ◼ ► And by the way, because people are already writing it, you don't need to make macOS touch-friendly, you don't.
01:23:41 ◼ ► You don't need to do it, because you could just have it for scrolling and pinching and zooming.
01:23:45 ◼ ► Like, you don't need to make every button touchable, because the trackpad is right there.
01:23:51 ◼ ► So, like, you're just, it's for a combo method, because then the user will understand very quickly that the button isn't good to touch, right?
01:24:00 ◼ ► Also, I have remote-controlled a Mac with a screen scaled down on an iPad with my finger, and it worked fine.
01:24:16 ◼ ► But at least with the iPad, there are certain elements that you have to tap to enlarge them, and then you can tap them again, right?
01:24:27 ◼ ► But my experience with using a touchscreen Chromebook, absolutely most of what I did was scroll or reach out and tap a thing.
01:24:36 ◼ ► And the truth is that even those of us who use keyboards and trackpads all the time and grew up using those kinds of pointing devices, even our brains have been rewritten where you see something on the screen and you want to touch it.
01:24:54 ◼ ► Like, when the keyboard and trackpad are connected to my iPad, I still touch the screen.
01:25:05 ◼ ► I think there will be new touchscreen MacBook Pros with support for touch in macOS, and that will happen simultaneously.
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