00:00:15 ◼ ► And I expect, I know I feel completely overwhelmed by what to do next, in what order to do the
00:00:34 ◼ ► Yeah, it's, A, I think it was a really, like, for both of us, I mean, we've been doing this
00:00:45 ◼ ► And I feel like I have this general sense of, like, the years that are like, oh, that was
00:00:50 ◼ ► a good one in terms of it was an interesting set of announcements, both in terms of new
00:00:57 ◼ ► opportunities, in terms of clearing out, like, just sort of system-wide tech debt by them,
00:01:07 ◼ ► And just in general, like, leaving with a sense of like, ooh, there's some really interesting,
00:01:31 ◼ ► The challenge, as you said, is obviously it's the nature of this kind of an update is there
00:01:45 ◼ ► I expect I will have something ready for day one across all my apps, but it's going to be
00:01:51 ◼ ► a tricky one in that way as, you know, it's like, especially as someone who, like, makes
00:01:56 ◼ ► The number of places you can put a widget now, just every year, I'm continuing to be struck
00:02:02 ◼ ► by just every, the Apple, any surface Apple possibly can, they now will put a widget on.
00:02:06 ◼ ► So you can, now you have widgets in CarPlay and you have different kinds of widgets that
00:02:11 ◼ ► you can activate from buttons and you have controls in watchOS and they're just like everywhere
00:02:15 ◼ ► is a widget, which is great as someone who makes widgets, but it's also terrible as someone
00:02:25 ◼ ► And overall, I would say like my overall impression of this year was like two thumbs up.
00:02:39 ◼ ► we can squeeze into the next couple of months, uh, you know, it'll just be a good year.
00:02:50 ◼ ► I, it's useful in this case, like with a big redesign to have the, like the opportunity
00:02:55 ◼ ► to be kind of forced and pushed to reevaluate my designs, which, you know, I go back and
00:03:16 ◼ ► And it's fun to have that kind of fresh perspective to sort of appear, you know, in, in over the
00:03:22 ◼ ► course of a week, it's been kind of a roller coaster because, um, uh, you know, first of
00:03:27 ◼ ► all, I would say for all of you developers out there, get this beta on a device and start
00:03:33 ◼ ► I don't care what device, but get it out, get it on something and start using it because
00:03:48 ◼ ► All of your customers, first of all, some of your customers are doing that already because
00:03:55 ◼ ► Some of your customers, you know, that's going to, that's going to be throughout the summer
00:04:03 ◼ ► You're going to have some people who hold onto the old version of the OS is forever because
00:04:13 ◼ ► And so there's going to be, I think, pretty strong adoption in the fall and you're going
00:04:19 ◼ ► And as soon as this lands to the public, your app is going to start looking old and that clock
00:04:25 ◼ ► is ticking for like, how long will you let this, will you let your app look old to your
00:04:30 ◼ ► You're going to want to have this running on a device and you're going to want to start
00:04:40 ◼ ► You know, I said back when the redesign for the OS was rumored, I said that there's like,
00:04:47 ◼ ► if they do a big redesign, that's basically all we're going to be able to do all summer
00:04:56 ◼ ► Like I started playing with the UI stuff over the last couple of days and a lot of it still
00:05:02 ◼ ► A lot of it has some weird, like tricky little gotchas that you have to figure out or work
00:05:06 ◼ ► You know, you got to file a bunch of bugs and hope they fix them soon so you can start actually
00:05:13 ◼ ► Your customers come September are going to see the system looks radically different and
00:05:21 ◼ ► And what's interesting, like, you know, the way I feel kind of generally about what they
00:05:26 ◼ ► delivered this year, a lot of people who I think are not developers or maybe who are skeptical
00:05:43 ◼ ► But I think one of the challenges that I'm facing is that I do see that, oh, yeah, I have
00:06:08 ◼ ► And it's kind of this big crunch period, too, because you have only a very short time when
00:06:14 ◼ ► you have to consume a whole bunch of developer sessions, figure out what to do with your app,
00:06:19 ◼ ► and start using these new APIs so that you can ask the right questions during the lab if
00:06:25 ◼ ► And or you can start filing bugs that actually have any chance of getting fixed before this
00:06:33 ◼ ► Like, I feel like I'm being pulled in a thousand different directions, all of which are super
00:06:46 ◼ ► And then I feel like things settle down in the way that we, you know, we most likely have
00:06:53 ◼ ► until mid to late September to be until we have to be ready, which is about three months.
00:07:10 ◼ ► Like, I've watched so many session videos in the last week and a half that they all start
00:07:34 ◼ ► course of the next few weeks, when I really dig into things, I'll be like, oh yeah, I remember
00:07:42 ◼ ► And so if you want to find something that you referenced earlier, but it is definitely a bit
00:07:50 ◼ ► And I think the thing that's been interesting and slightly reassuring to me, so the new design,
00:07:55 ◼ ► which probably, I mean, I imagine if you're listening to this, you probably know what we're
00:07:57 ◼ ► talking about, but like Apple, you know, this liquid glass is the high level feature of the
00:08:08 ◼ ► It's a slightly more, I might say stripped down or cleaned up hierarchy and visual sort of
00:08:18 ◼ ► language that they're going for, which in some ways is I found very helpful where a lot of
00:08:23 ◼ ► my initial work so far where I'm, a lot of what I'm doing is just taking a screen and then
00:08:28 ◼ ► just playing with it in Xcode to sort of see how quickly I could get a basic sort of liquid
00:08:36 ◼ ► And thankfully for this kind of update, the majority of the change is about removing old
00:08:43 ◼ ► customizations and old things that I was doing that were how, how you would add distinctiveness
00:08:50 ◼ ► In a weird way, like the design language itself has so much inherent distinctiveness and newness
00:08:58 ◼ ► that even just a completely vanilla out of the box, like you're just using Swift UI with
00:09:04 ◼ ► all the basic like default settings is going to look wildly interesting and different to your
00:09:13 ◼ ► And so the interesting thing, which at least is reassuring at this point is most of what
00:09:17 ◼ ► I'm doing is just sitting there and like delete my custom, this, delete my custom, that switch
00:09:21 ◼ ► from using my custom segmented control to a standard system with control, like all of these places
00:09:25 ◼ ► where I was doing things differently before, because the iOS 18 versions of these things were like
00:09:40 ◼ ► And inevitably what's going to happen is people will get used to this plane and then we will want our
00:09:51 ◼ ► But at least I find some comfort in that, that most of the summer I think is going to be stripping down
00:10:02 ◼ ► But a lot of it is going to kind of naturally come out of a simplifying process rather than
00:10:09 ◼ ► a process where if the new design required huge amounts of custom work to adopt, I would be
00:10:25 ◼ ► So far in my very early experimentation, it does appear that way, that you can rely a lot on the
00:10:32 ◼ ► defaults. And in fact, in many cases, you should strip away customization and rely on the defaults.
00:10:37 ◼ ► In fact, Apple has told us that much over and over again in the design sessions for WVC.
00:10:41 ◼ ► So I think one thing that helps a lot, you know, you said like the kind of the stock controls in iOS 18
00:10:47 ◼ ► and before were kind of bland and boring. The new system design is more opinionated than we've had since
00:10:55 ◼ ► iOS 5 and 6. You know, even 6 started stripping some of it up. I was like, it's the most opinionated visual
00:11:02 ◼ ► design since early versions of iOS. And over time, like, you know, it's, that's, it's been a long time since
00:11:09 ◼ ► we've had that. The, the design language of iPhone apps has basically become just, you know, flat shades
00:11:18 ◼ ► of color and text and, you know, just what iOS 7 started. Like it's been, it's been just, iPhone apps
00:11:25 ◼ ► look not that different from web apps and Electron apps. And that's part of, that's kind of, that kind
00:11:30 ◼ ► of all works together in a cycle. Well, now there's a huge bomb that Apple dropped and all of a sudden
00:11:35 ◼ ► they're going to look very different. Now, not every company is going to take advantage. In fact, I would say
00:11:40 ◼ ► most big companies are not going to adopt the new design language very well, if at all. They're going to want
00:11:47 ◼ ► their own branding. They're going to want their own look that they, that they say is consistent across all their
00:11:52 ◼ ► platforms, you know, like that. So apps from big companies are not going to look native anymore. They're going to look old
00:11:59 ◼ ► and they're going to look custom in a kind of in a bad way or a bland way. This I think gives opportunities
00:12:04 ◼ ► for us to take advantage of. Like for indies, we can make our apps look on the iPhone, like whatever we
00:12:10 ◼ ► want. And we don't have to worry about like, well, is it, does it, is it going to fit in with our overall
00:12:16 ◼ ► brand across all of our properties and platforms? Nope, we don't care. We can just make a great iPhone app
00:12:23 ◼ ► or, you know, Apple platform app, depending on your platform. And so I think this is an opportunity for
00:12:28 ◼ ► developer, for indies in particular, that we have an advantage here. We can work faster than the big
00:12:34 ◼ ► companies at adopting the new language and we can adopt it where many of them won't adopt it at all.
00:12:39 ◼ ► That I think will give our apps a bit of an edge on the platform, not for everybody. You know, most users
00:12:45 ◼ ► out there don't care, which is why all these boring big company apps are designed the way they are, because
00:12:50 ◼ ► most people don't care. But the core group of like Apple enthusiasts and iPhone enthusiasts who
00:12:55 ◼ ► really love the platform and things being native and integrated, that's our people. And they do care.
00:13:02 ◼ ► And we can make apps that appeal to them better than the big companies will be willing or able to do
00:13:07 ◼ ► for a while. So we have a window of opportunity here that we should take advantage of. That if we adopt
00:13:13 ◼ ► everything aggressively and early, we have an edge. So that, and that's, that's what I'm planning on doing
00:13:20 ◼ ► for overcast. Like, to be honest, like I don't think I'm spoiling any surprises here to say that
00:13:24 ◼ ► I'm going to redesign the app to fit in then with a new design language, of course. Like, and I, and by
00:13:27 ◼ ► the way, I am so glad at this moment that I did the rewrite and that it's done effectively now.
00:13:34 ◼ ► Because to have laid the, to have laid the groundwork for all modernized code, all Swift UI,
00:13:41 ◼ ► all Swift, you know, and then all Swift UI, that makes all of this so much easier. If I hadn't done the
00:13:49 ◼ ► rewrite over the past few years, this might kill overcast. Like this summer, like having to do
00:13:54 ◼ ► this, this might be enough. I might, I might've thrown in the towel and said, I can't keep up.
00:13:58 ◼ ► So I am so glad I did that when I did. Um, so anyway, yeah, redesign coming because I think
00:14:06 ◼ ► any app that takes itself, that any app that takes pride in how it integrates and fits in
00:14:12 ◼ ► and looks well and is native on the iPhone has to do a redesign or at least heavily consider,
00:14:18 ◼ ► you know, some major design tweaks. Yeah. And I think the nice thing about that, that like I'm
00:14:23 ◼ ► personally very excited about on the design side is like, I like the design, um, which makes it easier
00:14:28 ◼ ► this summer when I stare down that work to look at it. Like I've, you know, I have it on a, on a testing
00:14:33 ◼ ► phone at this point. I'm not, I haven't gone down the, uh, on my main phone yet, which at this point,
00:14:38 ◼ ► I think I'm glad of, um, at the time I didn't want to do it cause I was traveling and now I'm home and
00:14:42 ◼ ► I'm like, maybe I'll give this a couple of weeks and a couple of betas before I go there, but I'm
00:14:47 ◼ ► using it regularly on my testing device and doing things on my testing device that, um, sort of
00:14:52 ◼ ► increase my compatibility with it. And the more I use it, the more I like it. I think the initial, like
00:14:57 ◼ ► my first hour with it, my reactions were much more mixed because it is so, so opinionated, but
00:15:04 ◼ ► the more I've used it, the more I really like it. And I think that is very helpful with something
00:15:09 ◼ ► like this, where I'm looking at it and I, the more I play with it, the more I enjoy it. And I'm feeling
00:15:14 ◼ ► good about that. Like, Ooh, this is fun. Like, and I look at, and the reason when I look at my old app
00:15:18 ◼ ► and I don't like it anymore is because I've seen something that is better. And the like couple hour
00:15:25 ◼ ► version of just rebuilding with the new SDK and making a few minor changes to adopt the new layout,
00:15:31 ◼ ► I think looks better. I think it looks different and better is always these things is a bit squishy
00:15:36 ◼ ► because part of what makes it better is that it's new. And so it's hard to differentiate between
00:15:41 ◼ ► the newness and the intrinsic like goodness of it. Um, but in some ways that is like an inherent
00:15:48 ◼ ► thing of design that part of what will make it interesting and compelling for our customers is
00:15:53 ◼ ► that it is new and it is novel. And sometimes a new and novel is just as powerful as other aspects.
00:16:00 ◼ ► And I'm saying that I don't think it's, I think it is well-designed and I think it is thoughtful.
00:16:03 ◼ ► And I think it's easy to have the kind of hot take version of like, Oh, the contrast isn't good here
00:16:10 ◼ ► or the way they do this isn't great. But I think those things will either be just many of those things
00:16:17 ◼ ► are related to it being an early beta, that there are glitches and there are artifacts in the way that
00:16:23 ◼ ► it works, which are make it less compelling than it will likely end up being. And the other thing is
00:16:28 ◼ ► just, I, the more I've read and listened to all the design talks and read the documentation and things,
00:16:34 ◼ ► it is clear that many, you know, this has been thoughtfully thought through. I don't think this
00:16:39 ◼ ► is Apple responding sort of in a half completed way to wanting to do a redesign. I think this,
00:16:48 ◼ ► they've thought it through into lots of different places and we can, there are places that I disagree
00:16:52 ◼ ► with the direction they went, but overall I can see that it was made with, you know, a sort of intention
00:16:58 ◼ ► behind it. And that I think will help it to stand up over time. And sort of as we get, as it evolves and develops
00:17:06 ◼ ► both this summer and this end of the coming years, you know, I think it's starting with a good foundation to grow from.
00:17:11 ◼ ► Yeah. And I think too, like, whether or not you agree with all the choices Apple made, like, I don't agree with all
00:17:18 ◼ ► the choices they made. Like, there's a lot of stuff that I think will be revised and toned down in future releases.
00:17:24 ◼ ► Hopefully some of it will be toned down before the ships, but I'm honestly not holding my breath on that.
00:17:33 ◼ ► But no matter what you think is design, it doesn't really matter if you're a developer because this is what
00:17:39 ◼ ► they're doing and this is what all the customers are getting. And so we're, this is happening to us,
00:17:45 ◼ ► whether we like it or not. And you can either like stay on board the iOS train, which has always been
00:17:54 ◼ ► Like, you can either like go where they're going or have your app fade out of relevance
00:18:00 ◼ ► and your users start to hate it over time and it'll seem abandoned. Like, that's it. Like,
00:18:04 ◼ ► those are our choices. And so I have chosen, even though I don't love every single choice they've
00:18:09 ◼ ► made, I've chosen, like, look, I'm an iOS developer. I'm staying on this train. And so I'm adopting this
00:18:15 ◼ ► design aggressively because that's what my customers will expect. I mean, look, I already have like 2% of
00:18:20 ◼ ► my user base using developer beta 1. So that shows you like I have, I have a nerdy audience. And so they're going to
00:18:28 ◼ ► expect this to work and to fit in on day one. So that's what you got to do if you're in this game. We are brought to you this
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00:19:57 ◼ ► of this show and relay. So as much as we're excited about the redesign and thinking about that, I think
00:20:04 ◼ ► probably a place that might be worth just touching on before we wrap this up is to also talk about the
00:20:10 ◼ ► reality of while we're focused on updates that are going to come out in September, most likely, you
00:20:16 ◼ ► know, historically, it'll be sort of the third-ish week of September. Between now and then, I expect to
00:20:23 ◼ ► also have to ship regular updates to my app that I think having an entire quarter of the year where
00:20:29 ◼ ► there's no activity is doesn't reflect well on the app. And I think for my personal planning and the
00:20:34 ◼ ► things that I'm hoping to do just doesn't make sense. And so it's been a really interesting week
00:20:39 ◼ ► as I've shifted my mindset. Like last week, I was just, you know, on all these test prototype builds,
00:20:45 ◼ ► and I was just like, completely destroying my app, you know, in a separate branch that didn't really
00:20:51 ◼ ► matter, you know, change the deployment target to iOS 26, so that I can just ignore all the weird
00:20:57 ◼ ► warnings, and just go for it, right? Like that was last week. And this week, I'm back in the actual
00:21:02 ◼ ► production stable things, shipping features and doing work, which is weird in some ways, like it is
00:21:09 ◼ ► fascinating as a sort of thought exercise, because I'm building features, knowing what the next version
00:21:17 ◼ ► of iOS is going to be. So it's like, I know the future, but I'm like working in the past, which is
00:21:22 ◼ ► strange. But it's also just the reality of where I am, which has been interesting, because I'm, you know,
00:21:27 ◼ ► every as I'm building these, I'm building a visual feature right now. It's like all of my controls and
00:21:33 ◼ ► layout and things are very much like, huh, how can I build this for iOS 18 in such a way that it will
00:21:39 ◼ ► be compatible with liquid glass and the new design language and kind of start pre making my life
00:21:45 ◼ ► easier later in the summer when I actually have to adapt this new feature to that. And I think it's
00:21:50 ◼ ► one of those those complicated things. I've had some summers where I just don't do anything and don't
00:21:56 ◼ ► ship anything all summer. And I just don't love the way that feels. And right now, it's like, I want
00:22:04 ◼ ► to get to the new stuff. And I don't have a ton of time to be doing this. So I have tremendously
00:22:08 ◼ ► motivated, I will say, the last couple days of work, I've actually been some of the most productive I've
00:22:13 ◼ ► been, you know, in the last few months, because I have in the back of my mind this like, oh, you know,
00:22:19 ◼ ► I need to do these things, because I think it's a useful thing, you know, for the roadmap of the app,
00:22:24 ◼ ► and to have some features and to have a little bit of inertia going on to it rather than hitting
00:22:28 ◼ ► the summer, which is, for a lot of my apps, it's busiest times, like I don't want to have no updates,
00:22:34 ◼ ► have no interest, have no reason for customers to be engaged and excited about it. But I also have
00:22:40 ◼ ► this delightful motivation that as soon as I the sooner I can get this work done, the sooner I can
00:22:46 ◼ ► transition back to working on iOS 26, and the new shiny features. And so that's been interesting. And it's
00:22:52 ◼ ► been a nice motivation to do that. But yeah, that's the approach that I'm taking. And I think
00:22:57 ◼ ► I'm just sort of going through it carefully in that regard, if I'm trying to not create problems for me
00:23:03 ◼ ► on either side, and not trying to end up with these this massive, you know, giant get conflict that I'm
00:23:10 ◼ ► going to have to resolve later, like try and just be very clean about the way that I do it. And hopefully
00:23:16 ◼ ► that's going to work out. But it's definitely a weird thing. And I wasn't sure how you're approaching
00:23:20 ◼ ► this summer, like, are you expecting there to be meaningful overcast updates between now and
00:23:29 ◼ ► So one thing I have to, I have yet to judge is, how much can I actually work on the new code
00:23:38 ◼ ► base, and the old code base at the same time? There's, you know, obviously, you know, we have
00:23:44 ◼ ► branching and stuff. But like, sure, how much am I going to be pressured technically, or practically to
00:23:50 ◼ ► require 26, you know, close to day one, for future overcast updates? Like, will I be able to maintain
00:23:57 ◼ ► both? Most of what I want to work on, and we haven't even had time to talk about the LLM and
00:24:03 ◼ ► intelligence based features yet, but that's substantial. So there's, you know, between like
00:24:08 ◼ ► what I want to work on this summer, it's like a whole bunch of new design work, and a whole bunch
00:24:13 ◼ ► of work with the new APIs. And that doesn't leave that much room for me to release anything useful to my
00:24:19 ◼ ► customers in the meantime. The thing is, overcast is already in a pretty good state. And also, summer
00:24:25 ◼ ► is a low period for podcasts anyway. So I think it's totally fine for me to basically issue a couple
00:24:33 ◼ ► of bug fix releases here or there. Like I have one right now in beta testing that fixes a couple of
00:24:38 ◼ ► bugs from the big watch rewrite, and that's probably going to be out in, you know, a week or so, maybe
00:24:41 ◼ ► less. And I don't think I need to do that much else with overcast this summer for like bridging the gap,
00:24:47 ◼ ► unless some big bug comes up. I think my time is better spent trying to make the best release in
00:24:52 ◼ ► the fall that I can. And ideally, it's not just a redesign. Ideally, I can also have some of the new
00:24:59 ◼ ► API niceties in place by then as well. Because the redesign, I expect people will love or hate because
00:25:08 ◼ ► it's going to match the system and the system people love and hate. So and it's and it's different. So
00:25:14 ◼ ► any difference I make people will love or hate. So I feel like usually if I'm going to go through a
00:25:19 ◼ ► redesign, it helps to kind of, you know, smooth that over with the customer base. If you're also bringing
00:25:25 ◼ ► some nice new features to it as well at the same time. So I'd like to I'd like to have time to do both.
00:25:30 ◼ ► And that just doesn't leave that much bandwidth for incremental stuff over the summer that I don't
00:25:34 ◼ ► even necessarily know what it would be. So whereas I have a very clear view of what I want to be able
00:25:41 ◼ ► to ship this fall. And it's pretty aggressive. I think I'll be able to get maybe half of it done.
00:25:52 ◼ ► Yeah, I think that's perfectly reasonable. And I think there's this complicated tension. That's why
00:25:56 ◼ ► I wanted to bring it up. Because it's just it's and I, I don't think I'm going to, you know, I think I
00:26:02 ◼ ► will try very quickly, hopefully in the next few weeks, ship the last these last sort of couple of
00:26:07 ◼ ► updates that I'm hoping to do this summer and then transition, you know, meaningfully on to the new
00:26:18 ◼ ► I think I don't expect I'll be able to require iOS 26. Anytime soon, I expect I'm going into this
00:26:25 ◼ ► with the expectation that I will need to be supporting at least probably the last two versions
00:26:31 ◼ ► of iOS. In addition to iOS 26, that tends to be what kind of works well and is reasonable with my,
00:26:37 ◼ ► you know, sort of usage and analytics. And so I'm just going to have to build it with that in mind,
00:26:43 ◼ ► which in some ways makes it easier because, um, I like you use your philosophy is slightly
00:26:50 ◼ ► different. Like I am doing less wholesale change or I often will, you know, I, there's the complicated
00:26:56 ◼ ► thing with, especially in Swift UI of dealing with that where very often what I've done in the past,
00:27:01 ◼ ► especially on watchOS, but it's, you know, can apply in lots of places is I'll end up with like two
00:27:06 ◼ ► different like high level view trees in the app that I'll like create a new fork. That's the,
00:27:12 ◼ ► if you're running iOS 26, you get this new sort of root controller root view. And if you're running
00:27:18 ◼ ► the old versions, you get the old one. And that often makes it easier for me to kind of have work
00:27:23 ◼ ► that is going back and forth rather than sort of having breaking changes that can go, that make it
00:27:28 ◼ ► very difficult. Or if you do one change here, then it also affects here. Um, and so sort of keeping
00:27:34 ◼ ► things separate can be often very helpful, but yeah, it's going to be interesting. And it's a
00:27:38 ◼ ► challenging one, um, to think about backwards compatibility with, because it is such a, you know,
00:27:44 ◼ ► sort of a, there's a, some amount of fundamental change that is happening to our apps and fundamentally
00:27:49 ◼ ► sort of little tweaks and layout changes and things that will make it difficult. But I mean,
00:27:55 ◼ ► we've, we've gone through this before. I think it is not some, not an insurmountable problem,
00:27:59 ◼ ► but it will definitely be a challenging, um, thing to support older versions and to navigate
00:28:05 ◼ ► doing that in a way that doesn't sort of drive us crazy, um, with dealing with the compatibility
00:28:11 ◼ ► issues, because, you know, especially with a lot of the things being innate, like that's good and bad
00:28:16 ◼ ► that if you have the same control in Swift UI and you run it on iOS 26, it could behave or look or have
00:28:23 ◼ ► different metrics to if that same thing is running on iOS 17 or 18. And so that can cause all kinds of
00:28:37 ◼ ► in growth mode or are you mostly like serving your existing customers? Like I I'm deciding that
00:28:42 ◼ ► I'm going to require 2826 pretty aggressively, um, like pretty close to day one, just because
00:28:49 ◼ ► overcast is mostly serving existing customers. Now, like I'm not getting tons of new users per day.
00:28:54 ◼ ► My, I'm not like hockey stick growth anymore. Um, so, you know, my, my goal is serve my existing
00:28:59 ◼ ► customers as best as I possibly can and, you know, try to slowly gain more over time. So I think,
00:29:07 ◼ ► that depends on your app. All right. Well, thank you so much everybody for listening. We have so
00:29:12 ◼ ► much to do. We're going to keep covering this throughout the summer. Um, good luck with all
00:29:16 ◼ ► of your apps out there and all of your session watching and all of your API testing and all