Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hello, and welcome to Connected, episode 551. Today is Wednesday, May 7th, 2025. Sometimes

00:00:15 ◼   ► we say the date, sometimes we don't. You never know. You never know what you're going to get

00:00:19 ◼   ► here on this program. My name is Stephen Hackett, and I have the pleasure of being joined by our

00:00:23 ◼   ► keynote chairman, Mr. Mike Hurley. Sometimes you don't know how many hosts you're going to

00:00:27 ◼   ► get on the show, either. That is true. We are down one Federico Vatici. He was attacked by snakes.

00:00:37 ◼   ► That's, you can't just say that. There's a podcast that I listen to, that's what they do. Every

00:00:43 ◼   ► time someone's looked there, it's like, oh, snakes, they got him in the eyes, and that's just like,

00:00:47 ◼   ► and then they just move on. So that's it. Federico got attacked by some snakes, and that's it. The

00:00:53 ◼   ► ones that are in his ISP box, they come back to get him, and hopefully he'll be back next

00:00:57 ◼   ► time. I thought it was fiber. Nope, it's a snake. Nope, it's a snake. You know, if the snake was

00:01:04 ◼   ► like at the end of the house where the water runs off, it'd be snakes on a drain.

00:01:07 ◼   ► Should we do some follow-up? Yes!

00:01:12 ◼   ► Google accidentally leaked their new Android design. They're just doing what they do, which

00:01:18 ◼   ► is accidentally leaking everything. So we touched on the rumors of a potential redesign of Android

00:01:24 ◼   ► coming. And some imagery leaked on the Android blog. I just, I can't even, I just understand

00:01:32 ◼   ► how to do this stuff. It was picked up by 9to5Google. At least this portion of the redesign stuff is

00:01:39 ◼   ► called Material 3 Expressive. This doesn't seem to me, there's some images in the article that's in the

00:01:47 ◼   ► show notes. This to me doesn't feel like the entire operating system. I think that there's

00:01:53 ◼   ► something else here. This feels more like if you're an app developer, these are the types of elements that

00:02:00 ◼   ► you could use. In my experience of using Android so far and more recently, I have not come across many

00:02:09 ◼   ► apps that use material design. Really?

00:02:11 ◼   ► Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they're out there, but I'm not using many apps that I feel look like Google's apps.

00:02:20 ◼   ► I get the impression that there is less of this going on than even SwiftUI.

00:02:29 ◼   ► I'm sure that there are lots of examples of apps that do use it, but I'm not finding them.

00:02:34 ◼   ► None of the, as you can imagine, none of the big company apps are using this kind of design style.

00:02:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:02:41 ◼   ► So this is nice. And I would say like the images that are in this, that were in this blog post,

00:02:46 ◼   ► I love the overall energy that is in these screenshots. Lots of really vibrant colors.

00:02:53 ◼   ► It's like this to me feels like, like how material works of somebody chose purple was their favorite

00:02:58 ◼   ► color and then all of their favorite apps look purple. I would love it if that was like a realistic

00:03:03 ◼   ► thing that would occur. Maybe it does in some apps and for some users, but I don't know. I feel like

00:03:10 ◼   ► it's, you know, you would see material design more in like the indie app developer kind of world,

00:03:16 ◼   ► you know, like the person who has not got 50 designers who want to have their own design.

00:03:20 ◼   ► But I expect that there will be parts of Android that will also have this vibe,

00:03:24 ◼   ► but I don't think that's what we're seeing here. Like this looks like all third party like examples.

00:03:28 ◼   ► Yeah. The color is awesome. And it, what strikes me is, you know, if Apple's,

00:03:35 ◼   ► if the rumors of Apple's redesign are true and it's kind of vision OS-y kind of like the invites app,

00:03:42 ◼   ► that's distinctly different from this. This is still, I mean, there's some translucency in places,

00:03:47 ◼   ► but this is pretty flat, just more expansive use of color. And so we may actually see these OSs diverge

00:03:54 ◼   ► some this time around. I think maybe in a way we haven't seen in a while, if this is true and the

00:04:01 ◼   ► rumors about Apple are both true.

00:04:02 ◼   ► I think that would be a good thing.

00:04:04 ◼   ► Me too. Me too.

00:04:07 ◼   ► Okay. We got to follow up from somebody. I'm going to spell their name because I looked at this for

00:04:14 ◼   ► like five minutes. It's S-T-E-P-H-A-N, where I am E-N. But then they say it rhymes with farm.

00:04:23 ◼   ► Yeah. I, I've also really gotten stuck on this because I'm sure like you, I looked at that name

00:04:29 ◼   ► and I'm like Stefan, but I don't say, are you going to the farm? You know, a fam yard.

00:04:36 ◼   ► I don't know what to do with that. I'm assuming, so we've got like Stefan, Stefan, that's what we're

00:04:44 ◼   ► going for. But that doesn't rhyme with farm. Unless farm was a typo or like an autocorrect

00:04:51 ◼   ► and they spelled F-A-R-N, so it's like Stefan, I don't know. This person who I'm sure is lovely

00:04:59 ◼   ► has broken my brain with our almost the same name. They wrote in, uh, in the, the context here is we

00:05:08 ◼   ► talked last week about how we learn new things. We talked about resources on the internet and that

00:05:14 ◼   ► sort of thing. And this jumped out at me because of something you did a couple of years ago. Uh, so

00:05:20 ◼   ► Stefan rhymes with farm wrote in 2021, I wanted to learn about data science for my job and for

00:05:27 ◼   ► personal curiosity. I started using the internet, but quickly became frustrated with the lack of

00:05:32 ◼   ► clarity and depth, even on YouTube and in online courses. Mike mentioned looking for the Jason or

00:05:38 ◼   ► Steven of the industrial design world. They are out there, but they teach at universities,

00:05:43 ◼   ► not online. Same thing for me with data analysis. There's shallow stuff on the internet,

00:05:48 ◼   ► but experts mostly teach in person in a university setting.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Sad. Like I, yeah, that makes sense. Like that these people are out there, but they're not publishing.

00:06:00 ◼   ► That's sad for me because I want that experience. And I got some of it that the most, uh, that I have

00:06:07 ◼   ► gotten from the biggest experience that I've gotten was from that course that I did.

00:06:11 ◼   ► The problem is, and this is the same as it was then. And it's actually a bigger problem now,

00:06:17 ◼   ► um, for me to get more of that, I would have to enroll in a bigger course. And I can't like,

00:06:22 ◼   ► yeah, there was a while I was thinking about it. I was trying to see like, how could I,

00:06:26 ◼   ► maybe I could do like a part-time thing for a year, but none of those things really existed.

00:06:31 ◼   ► Um, and so I would like to do it again one day. And like, it's, there is nothing stopping me from

00:06:37 ◼   ► doing this at any point in my life, but like right now, more higher education is like not really on the

00:06:44 ◼   ► table, but that I agree would probably be the best way for me to get more expertise than what I feel

00:06:54 ◼   ► like I'm currently getting. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's totally fair, but it's, that's a hard

00:07:00 ◼   ► trade-off though, right? It's the time, it's the money, it's out of reach for a lot of people. Um,

00:07:05 ◼   ► one thing I did think about, and I don't like, it's not as big of a thing as it used to be,

00:07:10 ◼   ► but like back in the day, like iTunes, you remember that? Like a lot of colleges would put stuff

00:07:14 ◼   ► that was discontinued in like 2020 or 2021. But a lot of that content is in Apple podcast and Apple

00:07:23 ◼   ► books. And so some of that stuff is still around, but I think really famously, uh, Stanford had like

00:07:30 ◼   ► a iOS development course that they kept updated for a long time. So many people became developers

00:07:36 ◼   ► because of that. Yeah. And it was just free. Yeah. Like I remember when I was doing more interviews,

00:07:42 ◼   ► like that would like, and talking to developers, like doing inquisitive and command space and stuff

00:07:46 ◼   ► like that would come up a lot. Like people would learn to code because of that. Yeah. Um, and so like,

00:07:52 ◼   ► yeah, it, you know, I will say actually, I've also found use in like Skillshare and, um,

00:07:57 ◼   ► Masterclass, you know, like I've done some of those before. Um, there's a Skillshare course

00:08:02 ◼   ► that Aaron Draplin does, which, uh, I actually recommend you sign up for a month to Skillshare

00:08:07 ◼   ► to watch these cause I know you would enjoy them as much as I do.

00:08:10 ◼   ► He's my favorite designer. Have you seen his Skillshare thing where he does a design great

00:08:17 ◼   ► stuff? And also there's a, there's something, Oh, there's also, I'll find it. He did for Skillshare

00:08:23 ◼   ► on their YouTube. Uh, he did a tour of his office.

00:08:27 ◼   ► I did watch that. That was really cool.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Okay. But yeah, just the design great stuff course. It's an hour and 43 minutes long.

00:08:34 ◼   ► It's worth signing up to Skillshare for a month for.

00:08:37 ◼   ► All right. I'm putting that in my read it later app.

00:08:41 ◼   ► Yeah. You, you will like this. Like I've, I haven't finished it yet. Um, but I've been

00:08:47 ◼   ► really, really, really enjoying it. But yeah, I'll put, it's like a 20 minute video he did

00:08:51 ◼   ► showing off his, uh, office style. Also put in the show notes for people to watch. Um, cause yeah,

00:08:57 ◼   ► super, super good. I did actually have an experience like this that I wanted to share. So

00:09:02 ◼   ► obviously today we're going to talk about legal stuff. Cause like what Apple podcast isn't right

00:09:07 ◼   ► now. Um, I was listening to the Stratechery daily update and like Ben was rattling off a list of 15

00:09:15 ◼   ► court cases, um, to, to make an argument that he was making. And I was once again struck by

00:09:22 ◼   ► how I find the American legal system to be confusing. Uh, like the fact that it seems that

00:09:29 ◼   ► every court case is decided based on how previous court cases have gone and like the precedent that

00:09:36 ◼   ► they set and like the precedent is very important in, in just making any decision. And I was struck

00:09:42 ◼   ► again by like, well then how does anything ever change? So I opened chat GPT, like I was walking

00:09:49 ◼   ► along into the voice mode and was just having a conversation with it. And I found it to be

00:09:53 ◼   ► actually a really good experience because you're just like having a voice conversation, like you're

00:09:57 ◼   ► on the phone and I'm just like, and it's like, explain it to me. I'm like, yeah, but that sounds

00:10:01 ◼   ► really hard to get anything changed. It's like, yeah, that's kind of the point. I was like, all right,

00:10:04 ◼   ► fair enough. Um, so it was, I found that to be a good experience of like, this is just a piece of

00:10:10 ◼   ► information that I want and I would like it in a, in a different way. Like someone can explain

00:10:17 ◼   ► it to me. So it was like an evolution of how I'm finding these kinds of web, this kind of web searching

00:10:22 ◼   ► to be useful anyway. And that like, I can ask for something and then refine it by asking subsequent

00:10:29 ◼   ► questions, which is like not really a thing you can do with Google. You kind of have a conversation

00:10:32 ◼   ► with a Google search, right? You kind of like do a search, find the thing and then type in another

00:10:38 ◼   ► search based on what you found where this is like, no, I don't mean that. I mean this, can you go and

00:10:43 ◼   ► do that and do this? And so I found that to be a good experience. I still don't, I'm still not fully

00:10:49 ◼   ► on board with the way the system works, but I at least understand it a little bit more than I did

00:10:53 ◼   ► before. It's just peculiar to me that cases aren't judged purely on their merit. And it's, it's like,

00:11:01 ◼   ► it's on its merit plus everything that happened before that may have been for a ski and ski ticket

00:11:06 ◼   ► company is why we're, it's how we're working out the antitrust in the app stores. Like that doesn't

00:11:13 ◼   ► really make sense to me, but like, whatever, whatever. Yeah. Okay. Matt wrote in and said,

00:11:20 ◼   ► we've ordered the talk lately of Beats branded products made by companies other than Apple.

00:11:25 ◼   ► It reminded me of when I worked at Vodafone before the iPhone. At the time we sold a model of

00:11:31 ◼   ► Motorola phone that had iTunes built in called the Rocker. I'm curious if you guys had or still have

00:11:36 ◼   ► one. What did you think of it at the time? No, I'm sure you have one. I'm pretty sure I've seen it.

00:11:42 ◼   ► No, I don't have one. You don't have one?

00:11:45 ◼   ► Because it's another item that goes for way too much money.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Okay. The Rocker E1.

00:11:52 ◼   ► And I, today, I didn't have one of these, but I thought I might have had a phone that did it,

00:11:58 ◼   ► but I don't think I did. But again, I asked ChatGPT and found out there were three other phones

00:12:03 ◼   ► that had iTunes built into them. The Rocker Slivers L7, the Razer V3i.

00:12:10 ◼   ► My brother had that one and it was sick. The Sliver?

00:12:12 ◼   ► Uh-huh.

00:12:13 ◼   ► And the Motorola Rocker E2.

00:12:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:17 ◼   ► Which I found funny. It's like in some regions, it later switched to a different media player.

00:12:21 ◼   ► I assume when the deal ended with Apple.

00:12:26 ◼   ► This, I'm going to put this in the show notes. There is a, with a box, iTunes plus Singular

00:12:35 ◼   ► Motorola Rocker E1 that, this has been on eBay for years, for $1,000 and now it's 50% off at $499.

00:12:44 ◼   ► That's a steal, Stephen.

00:12:46 ◼   ► Every once in a while, I send it to our friend Quinn Nelson and be like, hey, hey, buy this, make a video.

00:12:55 ◼   ► Is the idea here that he makes the video and then sends it to you for permanent housing?

00:12:59 ◼   ► I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to that.

00:13:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:02 ◼   ► You know, if that happens, that's what happens. Like, I can't control the future.

00:13:07 ◼   ► But these are really expensive. Yeah, so this phone was basically just like a very, like, mid-aughts Motorola phone.

00:13:17 ◼   ► It wasn't a flip phone.

00:13:18 ◼   ► Candy bar phone.

00:13:18 ◼   ► It was a candy bar.

00:13:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:20 ◼   ► And they stuck a really crappy iTunes, version of iTunes in it.

00:13:25 ◼   ► You could copy 100 tracks from your computer to the device.

00:13:29 ◼   ► And it was announced the same day as the iPod Nano, which, of course, blew this thing out of the water, both in the news and in sales.

00:13:37 ◼   ► It was announced the same day as the Nano?

00:13:39 ◼   ► Yep, same keynote.

00:13:40 ◼   ► Oh, I had forgotten that piece of information.

00:13:43 ◼   ► It's brutal.

00:13:44 ◼   ► Man, there are some of these things where when you're so far apart from them, that have they split apart in your brain.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:13:51 ◼   ► I would never have, I could never have guessed that.

00:13:55 ◼   ► But yeah, I get, I mean, obviously you put in the show notes, if you've never seen Steve Jobs introduce it, it's worth watching because you've never seen someone introduce something so begrudgingly.

00:14:06 ◼   ► Like, the demo portion, I don't know if that's in this video, but in the demo, he's clearly unhappy with it.

00:14:13 ◼   ► Like, he is not happy about this.

00:14:16 ◼   ► I mean, because the thing is, at this point in 2005, we all want the iPhone.

00:14:22 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:14:23 ◼   ► You don't, because you don't want to carry a phone and an iPod, right?

00:14:26 ◼   ► Like, that's the whole thing.

00:14:28 ◼   ► The imagination of Apple making a phone has begun in 2005.

00:14:34 ◼   ► Like, that was a thing that people wanted.

00:14:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:36 ◼   ► I mean, it took to 2007 before we got it.

00:14:40 ◼   ► But like, the idea that Apple could make a phone, and not even really a smartphone.

00:14:44 ◼   ► Probably, honestly, we were imagining at that time something quite like the Rocket E1, but with Apple software.

00:14:51 ◼   ► And, oh boy, Motorola's operating system at this point was so bad compared to the others around it.

00:14:58 ◼   ► because they existed for so long on the back of the success of the Razer that they didn't really bother to put any energy into anything.

00:15:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:08 ◼   ► I do have a Razer, and my word, it's still so nice.

00:15:12 ◼   ► Like...

00:15:14 ◼   ► Well, I mean, they're doing it.

00:15:15 ◼   ► You should get the wooden one.

00:15:16 ◼   ► It looks pretty sick.

00:15:18 ◼   ► A big Moto X energy, too, there, right?

00:15:21 ◼   ► Because that's the...

00:15:21 ◼   ► Yep.

00:15:21 ◼   ► The X thing.

00:15:25 ◼   ► Okay, so that's the rocker.

00:15:27 ◼   ► So we've got a lot of breaking news here.

00:15:29 ◼   ► Connected without Federico.

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00:17:38 ◼   ► We're now entering a section of the show I call two phone to follow up.

00:17:42 ◼   ► Incredible.

00:17:43 ◼   ► This is an ongoing segment now.

00:17:45 ◼   ► It is.

00:17:46 ◼   ► I got some questions about my newly set up two phone lifestyle.

00:17:52 ◼   ► I don't want to call them day phone, night phone, work phone, home phone.

00:17:55 ◼   ► That's what I'm going with.

00:17:56 ◼   ► Tony asked questions about iMessage in particular.

00:18:02 ◼   ► And this is something I think we talked about, like trying to share something with y'all.

00:18:06 ◼   ► And Federico is running a Mac mini in the cloud with like some weird iMessage server thing.

00:18:11 ◼   ► So Tony asked, how do you manage iMessage syncing?

00:18:15 ◼   ► If both phones are signed into the same Apple account, then messages can sync in theory.

00:18:21 ◼   ► I have iMessage and FaceTime linked to both my phone number and email,

00:18:25 ◼   ► but you said you just use your phone number.

00:18:27 ◼   ► So I assume you don't see iMessages on the other phone.

00:18:31 ◼   ► So yes, both phones are signed into the same Apple account.

00:18:34 ◼   ► And what you can do, like when that happens, the phone number gets registered with your Apple ID.

00:18:41 ◼   ► And in settings on both phones, I have them set to send and receive just from my primary number.

00:18:48 ◼   ► So even the T-Mobile number that WorkPhone has, like that I don't honestly don't know the phone number.

00:18:54 ◼   ► It is not getting iMessage, iMessages.

00:18:58 ◼   ► Neither is my email address, just my personal phone number that I've had since I was 16.

00:19:03 ◼   ► So they can both send and receive, and I have messages in iCloud turned on so it's synced.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Now, I do have it set up a little bit differently.

00:19:12 ◼   ► I have no iMessage notifications on the WorkPhone whatsoever.

00:19:16 ◼   ► Not even a badge.

00:19:18 ◼   ► Like if I want to go see it, it's there.

00:19:20 ◼   ► It's all syncing.

00:19:23 ◼   ► Annoyingly, pinned messages or like pinned threads don't sync in iCloud.

00:19:28 ◼   ► So I don't have any pinned things in there right now.

00:19:34 ◼   ► But really, I'm not using iMessage very much in that phone.

00:19:37 ◼   ► Like if I'm reading something on it, I want to send it to y'all.

00:19:39 ◼   ► They're like, you know, whatever.

00:19:41 ◼   ► I can do that.

00:19:43 ◼   ► But it's not like my primary iMessage phone.

00:19:46 ◼   ► And so they are in sync if I need them.

00:19:49 ◼   ► But they're kind of just there in the background.

00:19:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:53 ◼   ► I mean, this is like this kind of thing is the frustration of using the devices in the competing

00:19:58 ◼   ► operating systems where sometimes like I see something on one device and I want to send

00:20:02 ◼   ► it to someone.

00:20:02 ◼   ► And it's like the way in which I need to do that is really complicated.

00:20:05 ◼   ► Because, you know, I've got to then find the thing in Safari and send it.

00:20:11 ◼   ► But, you know, and it's like in general, the thing that I am finding the most complicated

00:20:17 ◼   ► with my home phone, work phone is moving things between the devices.

00:20:24 ◼   ► And I'm finding some solutions.

00:20:27 ◼   ► We'll see which ones stick and which don't.

00:20:29 ◼   ► You know, like different services in which I can kind of like put something somewhere and

00:20:32 ◼   ► pick it up on another.

00:20:34 ◼   ► It's not ideal, but I'm still very happy about my choice of device.

00:20:39 ◼   ► Like the Google Pixel 9 Pro Fold is very, very good hardware.

00:20:45 ◼   ► Like I use it most of the time, like probably 70% of the time I'm using it as just a regular

00:20:52 ◼   ► phone, like just that screen.

00:20:53 ◼   ► But then if I'm like getting into something, you know, bust out the folding screen and you've

00:20:59 ◼   ► got a big screen in front of you, you know, in Notion.

00:21:01 ◼   ► That's how I was preparing for the show today.

00:21:04 ◼   ► Like I just broke open the phone and like just big screen, let's go.

00:21:09 ◼   ► And I'm in Notion and I'm split keyboard and I'm off to the races.

00:21:12 ◼   ► Like or a few days ago, I was doing some work with Google Sheets and Chrome open like side

00:21:21 ◼   ► by side.

00:21:21 ◼   ► And I was pulling in some numbers into a Google sheet.

00:21:24 ◼   ► Like it's really nice to have that flexibility of the second screen, even though I'm like,

00:21:30 ◼   ► you know, there's a little frustration moving things from thing to thing.

00:21:33 ◼   ► But I'm also I'm finding it interesting to bump up against what I consider to be the friction

00:21:38 ◼   ► points of Android and then trying to push myself to find a way to solve them.

00:21:42 ◼   ► Like it's an interesting experience of like, no, but like if I'm if I'm forcing myself to

00:21:48 ◼   ► work on Android, how am I going to do that?

00:21:51 ◼   ► And like, what is that going to be like and how is that going to work?

00:21:54 ◼   ► And so I've been finding it an interesting experiment so far.

00:21:58 ◼   ► OK, yeah, I had a question kind of about that split usage from Peter, who wrote in, it sounds

00:22:06 ◼   ► like instead of cutting the pie in half, you now have two pies.

00:22:09 ◼   ► Are you really leaving the work phone alone when you aren't working?

00:22:13 ◼   ► That is a totally fair question, like totally fair.

00:22:19 ◼   ► And the answer is yes.

00:22:22 ◼   ► Like so just this past weekend, like we were busy most of the day Saturday and we were busy

00:22:27 ◼   ► all day Sunday and the work phone was just like on the kitchen counter.

00:22:30 ◼   ► And I checked it a couple of times just to like check in.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Nobody needed anything and it was fine.

00:22:37 ◼   ► So I had my my just my regular phone with me and no social media, no work apps other than

00:22:44 ◼   ► Slack is still there.

00:22:45 ◼   ► But that I think is getting ready to go away, too.

00:22:47 ◼   ► So nothing bad has happened, which is great.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Nope.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Bad things will happen.

00:22:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:22:54 ◼   ► Like they will, but it'll be OK, too.

00:22:56 ◼   ► Like it will be fine.

00:22:57 ◼   ► Like these things can be worked out.

00:23:00 ◼   ► You know, it is what it is.

00:23:04 ◼   ► Like I've had a similar experience, right, where like the phone is either in my bag or it's

00:23:10 ◼   ► on a counter or something.

00:23:11 ◼   ► And it's just it's doing its thing and it's getting the notifications that it's getting

00:23:16 ◼   ► and the messages it's getting or whatever.

00:23:18 ◼   ► But I'm not seeing them.

00:23:19 ◼   ► Like today, you know, like I went out for lunch and left the work phone and the studio.

00:23:27 ◼   ► I was like, I'm just going to have an hour to myself for a bit.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Like what a nice thing to have.

00:23:33 ◼   ► I have taken Slack off my iPhone now.

00:23:36 ◼   ► I did that on Monday this week.

00:23:39 ◼   ► It's a weird experience, but I think it's going to be OK.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Like I've had things where it's like people need stuff from me, but like they'll get to it

00:23:49 ◼   ► when I'm working, like when I'm at my desk or like when I'm in work mode.

00:23:53 ◼   ► And I think that that's totally OK.

00:23:55 ◼   ► Again, similarly, if something is a true emergency, the people that the people that I work with

00:24:03 ◼   ► that something would be considered like a true emergency, they can get a hold of me.

00:24:07 ◼   ► Yep, exactly.

00:24:08 ◼   ► And so it's fine that they can wait for the answer to a question or can wait for me to sign

00:24:17 ◼   ► off some marketing copy until 25 minutes from now or two hours from now or whatever.

00:24:23 ◼   ► It's like, you know, people I think that work with me are used to this.

00:24:26 ◼   ► Like part of my job is going missing for a couple of hours.

00:24:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:31 ◼   ► Multiple times a week.

00:24:32 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:24:33 ◼   ► And it's fine.

00:24:34 ◼   ► Yeah, it's been just fine.

00:24:37 ◼   ► So yeah, I think overall things are going well for both of us, which is great.

00:24:42 ◼   ► And I know that like I think I saw some feedback somewhere where people were saying like,

00:24:47 ◼   ► can't you just use like focus modes and stuff like that and like solve this problem?

00:24:53 ◼   ► No, honestly, no, I can't.

00:24:57 ◼   ► Or I would.

00:24:58 ◼   ► I've tried for a long time.

00:24:59 ◼   ► Yeah, the temptation of having it there is too great.

00:25:03 ◼   ► And I need the physical separation of these devices to stop me from just to kind of break

00:25:10 ◼   ► that.

00:25:10 ◼   ► And so in an ideal world, yes.

00:25:13 ◼   ► But the answer for both of us is no, it needs to be an actual physical separation to stop us

00:25:19 ◼   ► from checking in on these things.

00:25:21 ◼   ► So it's an addiction.

00:25:23 ◼   ► But what we're addicted to is the thing that we love, which is our jobs and like our work.

00:25:27 ◼   ► And that can be very addicting.

00:25:29 ◼   ► But it means it can also just like take everything away from you if you give it, you know, take

00:25:33 ◼   ► all the energy you'll give it.

00:25:34 ◼   ► And we both want to be able to put energy in places that's not work, which I feel like

00:25:39 ◼   ► everybody can understand.

00:25:41 ◼   ► I do like the idea of the folding phone being the work phone.

00:25:44 ◼   ► Like maybe that's what future me does in a few years if Apple goes that route.

00:25:49 ◼   ► Like the idea of being able to open it up and like really like hone in on something is very

00:25:54 ◼   ► intriguing to me.

00:25:55 ◼   ► But I do not want to be split across ecosystems.

00:25:58 ◼   ► Like I want them both to be.

00:25:59 ◼   ► It's a pain.

00:26:00 ◼   ► It's a real pain.

00:26:01 ◼   ► But like I also really wanted to give this a college try so I could understand folding

00:26:06 ◼   ► devices.

00:26:07 ◼   ► Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:08 ◼   ► In preparation of next year, you know?

00:26:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I like it.

00:26:13 ◼   ► Just real quick.

00:26:16 ◼   ► I'm just going to put a call out.

00:26:18 ◼   ► If you like the show, go give us a review on Apple Podcasts.

00:26:24 ◼   ► Why?

00:26:25 ◼   ► Why do you want this?

00:26:26 ◼   ► Because I had a moment the other day.

00:26:28 ◼   ► I was in Apple Podcasts doing something else.

00:26:30 ◼   ► I was like, let's look at our reviews.

00:26:32 ◼   ► And they're great.

00:26:33 ◼   ► We have 4.5 stars, which is awesome.

00:26:35 ◼   ► But it's been a while since we've had an influx of them.

00:26:38 ◼   ► So go check it out.

00:26:41 ◼   ► I also want to read some mean reviews.

00:26:44 ◼   ► I did this once.

00:26:46 ◼   ► Do you remember?

00:26:46 ◼   ► I'm going to start with one that I don't, that I was on, I think, but you weren't.

00:26:52 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:26:52 ◼   ► John was on it.

00:26:53 ◼   ► They mentioned John.

00:26:54 ◼   ► Connected 525.

00:26:55 ◼   ► There's nothing Mac Stories releases that requires John to have 64 gigabytes of RAM in his Mac.

00:27:01 ◼   ► I'm adding words to this because most of these sentences aren't complete sentences.

00:27:04 ◼   ► It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise and will cause others to overspend!

00:27:09 ◼   ► I've never purchased the Pro model because I thought I'm a pro, nor do I claim the regular iPhone to be for normal people.

00:27:16 ◼   ► I get the Pro model because I like the 120 hertz refresh rate.

00:27:20 ◼   ► I can't notice my iPad minis at 60 hertz.

00:27:23 ◼   ► I prefer 120 hertz.

00:27:24 ◼   ► Why do I have to defend that choice?

00:27:26 ◼   ► What is happening?

00:27:28 ◼   ► Why is this person writing a blog post in the review?

00:27:31 ◼   ► And also, how many stars does this review?

00:27:34 ◼   ► One star.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Thanks, John.

00:27:36 ◼   ► I don't believe you are not some creative gods that know what's the most creative and best-looking thing for everyone.

00:27:43 ◼   ► Creativity is subjective.

00:27:44 ◼   ► Do you know what that means?

00:27:45 ◼   ► Federico, do you know what that means?

00:27:47 ◼   ► All of your websites aren't all that great.

00:27:50 ◼   ► I don't think Apple Intelligence learned anything from scraping your websites, other than how to waste people's time.

00:27:55 ◼   ► That's actually a pretty good burn.

00:27:58 ◼   ► For us or Apple Intelligence?

00:28:00 ◼   ► For everyone.

00:28:02 ◼   ► Everyone involved.

00:28:03 ◼   ► I think that was pretty good.

00:28:04 ◼   ► Here's a two-star review that just has the letter X.

00:28:07 ◼   ► I don't know what that means.

00:28:09 ◼   ► I'm going to give it to you.

00:28:10 ◼   ► One-star review, title, Enough Old Guys Rant.

00:28:15 ◼   ► Become a going complaint session with less and less humor.

00:28:20 ◼   ► Success may have spoiled it with hosts becoming a bit self-absorbed.

00:28:24 ◼   ► Too bad.

00:28:25 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a shame.

00:28:26 ◼   ► We are pretty self-absorbed.

00:28:28 ◼   ► There's a lot of stick-in-your-lane stuff.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:31 ◼   ► I'm not going to read any of.

00:28:33 ◼   ► There was a very particular few weeks of the year where everybody decided that everything was too political, no matter whether anyone was actually talking about politics or not.

00:28:41 ◼   ► It was in the fall last year in the U.S.

00:28:45 ◼   ► I don't know what that's about.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Short analysis.

00:28:50 ◼   ► Federico equals shortcut, shortcuts, and even more shortcuts.

00:28:54 ◼   ► iPad, iPad, and even more iPad.

00:28:56 ◼   ► Mike, don't be clown yourself with ignorant takes on American politics and culture.

00:29:01 ◼   ► I love it.

00:29:02 ◼   ► I love it.

00:29:03 ◼   ► Even the most tedious podcast host I can think of, with the exception of Andy and Nako.

00:29:08 ◼   ► Drones on and on.

00:29:13 ◼   ► Skip this truly boring podcast.

00:29:17 ◼   ► So, so far, John, Voorhees, and Andy and Nako are taking a catch in strays in our podcast reviews.

00:29:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:29:24 ◼   ► This is awesome.

00:29:25 ◼   ► Anybody else?

00:29:26 ◼   ► Is anybody else like...

00:29:28 ◼   ► A lot of...

00:29:28 ◼   ► Some people misspelled my name.

00:29:29 ◼   ► This episode...

00:29:31 ◼   ► Must be somebody else then.

00:29:32 ◼   ► ...made me wish...

00:29:33 ◼   ► This episode with John made me wish we could have a podcast with John, Stephen with a V, and Federico instead.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Mike complains all the time.

00:29:41 ◼   ► Oh, well, you know, what are you going to say?

00:29:43 ◼   ► You know, actually, saying about this, I'll say I was...

00:29:46 ◼   ► Because you put this in, I went and looked at the reviews for Connected.

00:29:49 ◼   ► I looked at the reviews for Upgrade, too, to see if there's a correlation, which there was in time.

00:29:53 ◼   ► But there was this...

00:29:54 ◼   ► There was one where it's like something about, like, I really enjoy Upgrade, da-da-da-da-da.

00:29:59 ◼   ► Never have John Syracuse are on the show.

00:30:00 ◼   ► Wow.

00:30:03 ◼   ► It's just like, why?

00:30:04 ◼   ► What happened?

00:30:05 ◼   ► Like, what happened to you?

00:30:06 ◼   ► What did he do to you?

00:30:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:08 ◼   ► I just can't do it anymore.

00:30:09 ◼   ► This one's four years old.

00:30:10 ◼   ► I'm going pretty far back now.

00:30:12 ◼   ► I've listened to these three long before relay during the 5x5 days, and I looked forward to it every week.

00:30:17 ◼   ► However, they become so pretentious and consumed in their own bubble and forget that regular Apple fans do not care about their, quote, workflows.

00:30:24 ◼   ► Basically, non-stop ramblings of auditory conspicuous consumption.

00:30:30 ◼   ► Mike has gone full vocal fry and can barely be tolerated.

00:30:33 ◼   ► Steven doesn't talk enough, and Federico just complains.

00:30:37 ◼   ► Can I...

00:30:39 ◼   ► That scene, I know why you've read that one.

00:30:41 ◼   ► I didn't even see that part until I opened it up.

00:30:43 ◼   ► The show would be so much better if Steven said more.

00:30:46 ◼   ► Did you write that?

00:30:47 ◼   ► No.

00:30:47 ◼   ► No.

00:30:49 ◼   ► That's my vocal fry for you.

00:30:52 ◼   ► So what you're saying is, here's what I want.

00:30:56 ◼   ► If you're going to review the show, review it positively.

00:30:59 ◼   ► If you're going to review it negatively, please just include somebody else in it as well.

00:31:02 ◼   ► That's all I ask for.

00:31:04 ◼   ► So if you're listening to this and you're like, I want to give them a bad review, pick another podcaster, just put them in there.

00:31:09 ◼   ► Because I like that.

00:31:10 ◼   ► I like people getting, like...

00:31:11 ◼   ► Casey caught a stray.

00:31:13 ◼   ► Oh, good.

00:31:14 ◼   ► Please.

00:31:15 ◼   ► But it's in a five-star review.

00:31:16 ◼   ► I don't care.

00:31:18 ◼   ► From 10 years ago.

00:31:20 ◼   ► Mike Hurley and the great Casey List host a podcast covering Apple and tech-related news and opinion.

00:31:25 ◼   ► A nice, friendly, non-jerkish duo engaging in an intelligent discussion.

00:31:29 ◼   ► None of the smugness found in some other podcasts, just two real nice gentlemen talking about what they find interesting in the tech industry.

00:31:37 ◼   ► This is unconnected?

00:31:38 ◼   ► Yeah, but that also doesn't describe analog.

00:31:41 ◼   ► No, well, it might have at the time.

00:31:43 ◼   ► I mean, analog has changed a lot.

00:31:45 ◼   ► That's true.

00:31:46 ◼   ► Maybe that was in the beginning.

00:31:46 ◼   ► It was much more, like, tech-focused than it ended up becoming, like, life-focused.

00:31:53 ◼   ► That isn't catching a stray.

00:31:55 ◼   ► This is getting a compliment.

00:31:57 ◼   ► Here's one from somebody who I'm pretty sure is in our Discord.

00:32:01 ◼   ► This username seems very familiar to me.

00:32:03 ◼   ► Real quick, the idea of the reviews saying we're pretty self-absorbed, the fact that we've been reading podcast reviews for 10 minutes.

00:32:11 ◼   ► But anyway, carry on.

00:32:12 ◼   ► Do we really need yet another podcast of people talking about Apple products?

00:32:16 ◼   ► Do we?

00:32:17 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:32:18 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure this person is in the Discord.

00:32:21 ◼   ► Well, then why don't you find out what shows they support?

00:32:25 ◼   ► Because maybe they changed their mind, you know?

00:32:26 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:32:27 ◼   ► Let's see if I can do that.

00:32:29 ◼   ► You ain't got to give me the information about them, obviously, except the shows that they're supporting.

00:32:34 ◼   ► I would like to know.

00:32:35 ◼   ► And then that person can really think about themselves, I guess.

00:32:38 ◼   ► This person knows who they are.

00:32:41 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:32:42 ◼   ► View full profile.

00:32:44 ◼   ► I'm trying to remember how I get back to the memberful thing.

00:32:49 ◼   ► I can never remember.

00:32:50 ◼   ► Anyways, drop us a note in Apple Podcasts.

00:32:54 ◼   ► It'd be great.

00:32:54 ◼   ► You didn't find out?

00:32:56 ◼   ► I'm still looking.

00:32:57 ◼   ► I was trying to vamp.

00:32:58 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:32:59 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:33:00 ◼   ► It sounded like you were moving on.

00:33:01 ◼   ► I mean, not really.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Now I've got to know if they support Connected.

00:33:06 ◼   ► Because that would be incredible.

00:33:07 ◼   ► Because maybe they're just changing their mind.

00:33:09 ◼   ► I mean, we're changing hearts and minds.

00:33:11 ◼   ► You know, that's really what we do.

00:33:14 ◼   ► Well, you're really struggling in the memberful back end.

00:33:17 ◼   ► I really am.

00:33:18 ◼   ► Okay, here we go.

00:33:20 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:33:20 ◼   ► This particular person supports Connected and Upgrade.

00:33:25 ◼   ► So they answer his guess.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Nope, nope.

00:33:28 ◼   ► The Connected is set to auto-expire in July.

00:33:31 ◼   ► Oh, they changed their mind.

00:33:33 ◼   ► But are they sticking with Upgrade?

00:33:36 ◼   ► Seems like it.

00:33:37 ◼   ► I like that they chose.

00:33:38 ◼   ► That the answer was no.

00:33:39 ◼   ► They didn't need more than one tech podcast.

00:33:41 ◼   ► Because they already had the best one, I guess.

00:33:43 ◼   ► Is what they're saying.

00:33:43 ◼   ► So thank you to that person.

00:33:45 ◼   ► Kate says,

00:33:47 ◼   ► The first time Casey was on Connected was in 2017.

00:33:50 ◼   ► Which is three years after that review was written.

00:33:52 ◼   ► So I don't know what's going on there.

00:33:53 ◼   ► That person just loves Analog and hates Connected.

00:33:56 ◼   ► I guess so.

00:33:57 ◼   ► Is the situation.

00:33:58 ◼   ► I guess so.

00:33:59 ◼   ► This episode of Connected is brought to you by NetSuite.

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00:34:10 ◼   ► You're going to get at least ten different answers.

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00:35:33 ◼   ► The guide is free to you at netsuite, N-E-T-S-U-I-T-E, netsuite.com slash connected.

00:35:42 ◼   ► Our thanks to NetSuite for their support of the show and all of Relay.

00:35:46 ◼   ► So a couple of hours off to last week's episode, the app still fell apart.

00:35:52 ◼   ► It was Wednesday night.

00:35:56 ◼   ► Okay, I'm going to tell a story here.

00:35:58 ◼   ► It was Wednesday night and I was at like a kid's choir thing for one of my kids and like got a text message from somebody to be like, well, the app store is over.

00:36:09 ◼   ► I was like, what?

00:36:09 ◼   ► And then after the choir thing, I went home and blogged until the wee hours of the night.

00:36:14 ◼   ► Yep.

00:36:15 ◼   ► This is one of those scenarios where I picked up my iPhone and there was like 29 unread iMessages.

00:36:21 ◼   ► And that's when I know like something's going on in the group thread.

00:36:24 ◼   ► The group thread is popping off.

00:36:25 ◼   ► And yeah, multiple group threads are popping off actually over this news.

00:36:29 ◼   ► I don't think we need to go over it.

00:36:31 ◼   ► There's like, surely you've, surely you know and or have heard other podcasts.

00:36:36 ◼   ► There will be links in the show notes.

00:36:38 ◼   ► I actually really, really recommend listening to AppStories.

00:36:42 ◼   ► So basically, I listened to AppStories Plus before AppStories came out and I text John and Federico and was like, you should release this to everybody.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Because John puts his lawyer hat on and explains a lot of the like, this is how a trial works kind of thing, which I found to be enlightening.

00:37:00 ◼   ► And I'm really pleased that they thought it was a good idea.

00:37:02 ◼   ► And they did so everybody can hear it.

00:37:04 ◼   ► And I'm happy with the episode of Upgrade that me and Jason did.

00:37:08 ◼   ► We've got a lot of good feedback, including from Steve and Elias.

00:37:10 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:37:10 ◼   ► But yeah, so the monopoly is potentially over in America, at least for now.

00:37:19 ◼   ► Anybody can, you know, you can put in your app and say like, oh, it's, you can go and pay us on the web.

00:37:27 ◼   ► And you can have a button and people can press it.

00:37:29 ◼   ► So the steering, the steering is done.

00:37:32 ◼   ► I don't think you have had a podcast opportunity to talk about this.

00:37:35 ◼   ► I can't imagine you and David are talking about this, maybe in MorePowerUsers or something.

00:37:39 ◼   ► It's on MorePowerUsers this coming Sunday.

00:37:42 ◼   ► So it's like a week and a half late.

00:37:43 ◼   ► And I did what AppStories did.

00:37:45 ◼   ► I was like, David, explain the law.

00:37:47 ◼   ► Like, you know.

00:37:48 ◼   ► Oh, I can't wait to hear that then.

00:37:50 ◼   ► So that will be good.

00:37:51 ◼   ► So yeah, I've not, I mean, I've written about it, but I've not talked about it.

00:37:55 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, it's, I think we all knew a year and a half ago when the first injunction came down and Apple did the scare screens and the 27% that, I mean, we said it, everyone said it, like this is malicious compliance, right?

00:38:10 ◼   ► They are following, well, turns out they actually weren't following, but they were, they were trying to draw the closest line they could to what they wanted to do and what the judge had told them to do.

00:38:22 ◼   ► And this comes back and says, no, you actually did not do what we told you to do.

00:38:28 ◼   ► But the thing that like keeps rattling around in my head is there were a thousand opportunities for Apple, not just in the last year and a half, but the last, you know, 15 years of the App Store to make decisions that would have left them in control of their own App Store.

00:38:47 ◼   ► And now they're not in the U.S.

00:38:49 ◼   ► And I guarantee you, like, I bet you all the money in my bank account, it is a, there's going to be a line down the street and around the block of other countries and governments saying, hey, that's what you're going to do here too.

00:39:05 ◼   ► Right.

00:39:06 ◼   ► You got the smoking gun, right?

00:39:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:08 ◼   ► It's all public now.

00:39:09 ◼   ► It's public now.

00:39:11 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know how this kind of thing works, but.

00:39:14 ◼   ► The cat's out of the bag.

00:39:15 ◼   ► Yes.

00:39:16 ◼   ► If you do the same discovery, you can get the same information.

00:39:19 ◼   ► Yep.

00:39:20 ◼   ► And so you can, you can look at making a similar judgment, I'm sure.

00:39:23 ◼   ► Like, the EU must be like just rubbing their hands together, right?

00:39:28 ◼   ► They now know everything that they need exists.

00:39:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:32 ◼   ► And the thing is, it could have existed the whole time.

00:39:35 ◼   ► Again, Apple could have done this.

00:39:37 ◼   ► I went back and kind of spent some time reading about, like, the original App Store, and I skimmed the announcement video, which is, like, on Town Hall.

00:39:45 ◼   ► You remember back in the day, Apple used to do, like, iOS, like, roadmap keynotes in the spring?

00:39:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:51 ◼   ► And then, you know, WBC kind of consumed it all.

00:39:54 ◼   ► But they talk about the App Store.

00:39:56 ◼   ► It's like 30%, and our goal is not to make money on it.

00:39:59 ◼   ► And maybe that was true in the beginning, but that hasn't been true for well over a decade.

00:40:06 ◼   ► It fell apart when in-app purchase became a thing.

00:40:08 ◼   ► Yes.

00:40:08 ◼   ► I think.

00:40:09 ◼   ► I think that's absolutely when it fell apart.

00:40:11 ◼   ► Because I think they probably weren't making a lot of money on the App Store when it was just you paid up front and got an app.

00:40:21 ◼   ► Like, you know, they were making, I'm sure they were covering their costs and maybe a little bit more, but not to that, not to any kind of wild degree.

00:40:29 ◼   ► And then in-app purchase was originally, well, it was just for paid apps, right?

00:40:39 ◼   ► It was just for paid apps.

00:40:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:42 ◼   ► And it was additional content, basically, is how Apple pitched it.

00:40:47 ◼   ► I think very quickly people were using it for, like, premium feature unlock like it is now.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Yes, and, like, you could have other levels of a game and that kind of stuff was what they were thinking about.

00:40:57 ◼   ► So you could have multiple in-app purchases.

00:40:59 ◼   ► Like, a game's a perfect example and something that they talked about in those keynotes.

00:41:02 ◼   ► Like, hey, you know, levels one through five are with the paid app.

00:41:07 ◼   ► And then you can pay for levels six, seven, and eight.

00:41:09 ◼   ► And you're done with those.

00:41:10 ◼   ► And there's new levels in the future.

00:41:12 ◼   ► You can buy those.

00:41:13 ◼   ► Before subscriptions, right?

00:41:14 ◼   ► Before, remember the term freemium?

00:41:17 ◼   ► Remember that?

00:41:18 ◼   ► Free apps with paid in-app purchases?

00:41:19 ◼   ► That's the model now.

00:41:21 ◼   ► Well, now it's free apps with subscriptions.

00:41:22 ◼   ► And so much of the world changed through the growth of the iPhone and the iPad and the App Store changing and the business models changing.

00:41:33 ◼   ► But the core of it, Apple never changed because they saw that it was a money printing machine and that has finally caught up with them.

00:41:42 ◼   ► And so that's kind of like thought one.

00:41:45 ◼   ► Like, there were lots of off-ramps here and Apple never took a single one of them.

00:41:49 ◼   ► In fact, they doubled down with, like, the ridiculous 27% cut.

00:41:54 ◼   ► They're like, oh, it's scientifically proven.

00:41:55 ◼   ► It's like, no, it's not.

00:41:57 ◼   ► And the judge saw right through it, rightfully so.

00:42:00 ◼   ► And so all of that's just pretty terrible.

00:42:03 ◼   ► And the other thing that I keep hearing people say, and I don't actually fully agree with it, is, like, Phil Schiller comes off as the winner.

00:42:11 ◼   ► He comes off looking better than anyone else in these documents.

00:42:14 ◼   ► But he's been in charge of the App Store for a long time.

00:42:18 ◼   ► He's been at Apple for a long time.

00:42:20 ◼   ► Like, if he, you know, his, he was brave, I guess, in saying, hey, we need to follow this injunction.

00:42:27 ◼   ► And Tim Cook foolishly followed the advice of his now ex-CFO instead.

00:42:33 ◼   ► But Schiller carries guilt here, too.

00:42:36 ◼   ► And I just feel like, I like Schiller.

00:42:39 ◼   ► Like, I've met him several times.

00:42:40 ◼   ► And we had a funny exchange on Twitter years ago that I have screenshots of in day one.

00:42:43 ◼   ► But it's, they all had opportunities.

00:42:47 ◼   ► And none of them took them.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:50 ◼   ► I mean, I think, I would like to think that, you know, what Phil Schiller was seeing was, like, he had a mirror held up to their practices and realized they were wrong.

00:43:00 ◼   ► Or it was just that he knew they were going to lose, right?

00:43:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:03 ◼   ► And it kind of doesn't really matter to me either way.

00:43:06 ◼   ► I agree.

00:43:06 ◼   ► I wish that, I also wish that they would have listened.

00:43:09 ◼   ► I mean, something that, I don't know if any of us really anticipated this, right?

00:43:13 ◼   ► Like, as you were saying about, like, you know, the judgment came down and they did the things that they were doing, right?

00:43:20 ◼   ► About, like, the single link, single text link.

00:43:22 ◼   ► I never really foresaw that the court would say that this wasn't going to work.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Like, in my mind, it was like they were given the ruling and this is what Apple went and did.

00:43:36 ◼   ► It never really, it never really occurred to me that this could come back to the court again.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Like, I didn't even recall or even know that there were additional hearings going on.

00:43:48 ◼   ► Like, maybe I just got lost in all the many hearings that there are these days, which, by the way, I do love.

00:43:53 ◼   ► Like, I love that we're getting so much nonsense coming out of these tech companies.

00:43:59 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:44:00 ◼   ► It's fantastic.

00:44:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:01 ◼   ► Like, we have more of it in a little bit before the end of the show.

00:44:04 ◼   ► Like, I think it's great that we're getting all this stuff.

00:44:06 ◼   ► I am a little bit surprised.

00:44:08 ◼   ► Maybe the court mandated this, but we had, like, a whole discussion on this show about how Apple does not take minutes and then, like, no one's taking notes in their meetings.

00:44:17 ◼   ► And a lot of these conversations seem to be coming from minutes of meetings.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Maybe there's something different about this stuff.

00:44:24 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:44:25 ◼   ► But I was really struck by the fact that there is so much written down.

00:44:29 ◼   ► And a lot of it came from Slack messages, too.

00:44:31 ◼   ► That's the real killer.

00:44:33 ◼   ► If you're going to do crimes, don't do them in Slack.

00:44:35 ◼   ► That's the real lesson.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Why do you think I took it off my phone, you know?

00:44:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:40 ◼   ► This is it.

00:44:41 ◼   ► But, like, this is the thing that, I mean, I was really talking about this on Upgrade of, like, the thing that I think is the big problem here is the fact that a lot of this is in Slack because it's the company culture has trickled down to designers and developers that aren't executives.

00:44:55 ◼   ► And they're, like, acting on the way that they think their executives want things done, which is, like, to be in opposition of developers and customers to make more money, which I just think that is how corporations work.

00:45:12 ◼   ► It's not how we believe Apple should work.

00:45:16 ◼   ► It's not how Apple position themselves, which I think is the bigger point, right?

00:45:20 ◼   ► And so, or at least the way they have positioned themselves in the past.

00:45:26 ◼   ► So, like, it's, I think that is the bigger problem that Apple's got to contend with here is how do they change their corporate culture?

00:45:35 ◼   ► I don't know if they even, I don't think they want to.

00:45:38 ◼   ► I mean, they obviously don't want to because they're not taking this lying down.

00:45:41 ◼   ► They're appealing it, which is also hilarious, right?

00:45:44 ◼   ► Where, like, one of your executives told you not to do it.

00:45:47 ◼   ► We've all seen that.

00:45:47 ◼   ► You've now suffered the consequences and you're, like, we're going to appeal this.

00:45:53 ◼   ► I'm also, like, the appeal thing is interesting to me because it's, like, is it too late now?

00:45:59 ◼   ► Like, you can make the appeal, but, like, is the cow, the bag, like, Spotify and Amazon, you know, they're doing stuff now?

00:46:09 ◼   ► Like, is it too, is it too late?

00:46:11 ◼   ► Like, I guess you can just change the rules again, but then what, are you going to kick Spotify out the store if they, if they don't change the button back?

00:46:17 ◼   ► Like, what are you going to do now?

00:46:19 ◼   ► Marco said something really smart on this week's ATP.

00:46:22 ◼   ► It's like, if you are a developer, like, rushing into this could be, prove challenging in the future.

00:46:31 ◼   ► Like, Amazon and Spotify, they'll be okay, right?

00:46:34 ◼   ► They'll go back or they'll fight it, but if you're an indie developer and you switch up your app to support this and it does get rolled back, like, then what?

00:46:46 ◼   ► Do you think Apple's going to have, like, a graceful tool for those subscriptions and purchases to, like, be blessed back in the App Store system?

00:46:53 ◼   ► Well, I don't think you need to worry about it, though, right?

00:46:55 ◼   ► Like, if you have an account-based system, it's like how you could have an account-based system now.

00:47:00 ◼   ► Like, the way that you sign up for an app doesn't always have to be in iOS, right?

00:47:05 ◼   ► But, like, you would have to remove that functionality and go back to Apple's system, potentially.

00:47:09 ◼   ► But it's not like you'd lose your customers.

00:47:11 ◼   ► You'd have to make sure whatever you set up can manage that.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Yes.

00:47:17 ◼   ► But I wouldn't, I mean, if I was doing it, or, like, I'll speak on your behalf.

00:47:22 ◼   ► Okay.

00:47:23 ◼   ► Like, we just shouldn't do this.

00:47:26 ◼   ► No.

00:47:26 ◼   ► Until, I mean, maybe you guys would want to consider it after the appeal process is done, you know?

00:47:32 ◼   ► Like, but, I mean, like, a company of your size, which admittedly is a large one, but there's only a few of you, is very different to Spotify or YouTube, where there's, like, you know, they've got all these developers.

00:47:44 ◼   ► I mean, Spotify have clearly got so many resources.

00:47:47 ◼   ► They already had this ready to go.

00:47:48 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:47:49 ◼   ► They've just been sitting on this.

00:47:50 ◼   ► They also have a version.

00:47:50 ◼   ► Yes.

00:47:51 ◼   ► They have a version of the app for if it gets appealed as well, right?

00:47:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:54 ◼   ► Where they just roll it back again.

00:47:55 ◼   ► But, yeah, like, if you're trying to stay lean as an organization, you shouldn't do this until you know it's going to stick, unless you're willing to go through the hassle of changing it all back again.

00:48:06 ◼   ► And, like, maybe that's worth it for you for the 30% extra money that you'd get over the probably year that this will take.

00:48:13 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know how long an appeals process takes, but it doesn't feel like these things happen particularly fast.

00:48:17 ◼   ► No, I don't think it'll be fast.

00:48:19 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question.

00:48:21 ◼   ► Like, I don't – we're not pursuing that at the moment, but who knows what the future may bring.

00:48:26 ◼   ► You know, Underscore had this really great thing on Mastodon the other day of, like, he's paid Apple an eye-watering amount of money over the years.

00:48:33 ◼   ► Like, yeah, it is.

00:48:34 ◼   ► I mean, it's nuts.

00:48:36 ◼   ► And it's allowed independent app developers like David to be independent app developers, right?

00:48:43 ◼   ► Like, the App Store has been a huge boon to millions of people, but that doesn't mean that the deal that they set up 15 years ago is still a good deal today.

00:48:54 ◼   ► And Apple just has been unwilling to change or adjust it.

00:48:58 ◼   ► They've tweaked it around the edges, right?

00:49:00 ◼   ► They've done the small business program where if you're under a million dollars a year, it's 15% instead of 30%.

00:49:08 ◼   ► But the second you cross over the million, it's like, game over.

00:49:12 ◼   ► You know, you're not in that program anymore, and you've got to wait like a year to get back in.

00:49:16 ◼   ► And where I've made the argument many times that I actually think that once you go over that million, it should go down, not up.

00:49:22 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:49:24 ◼   ► You can – you'll get 15% cut over 30 after a subscription is a year old.

00:49:32 ◼   ► Like, they have made tweaks, but the general deal is still the same.

00:49:37 ◼   ► And in addition to the money, it also caps what people are willing to do and try, right?

00:49:43 ◼   ► And it makes the user experience worse, right?

00:49:47 ◼   ► In the previous system, so one week ago, the system of if I want to sign up for Spotify, I download the iOS app, and then I have to, like, figure out what to do.

00:49:58 ◼   ► Or I encounter a screen that is, like, super scary looking.

00:50:01 ◼   ► The user experience, while it will be fractured now because some apps will support what Apple does.

00:50:10 ◼   ► Some apps will have to go out to a website.

00:50:12 ◼   ► Like, people can manage that.

00:50:14 ◼   ► Like, people do all sorts of things online, shopping, and that's fine.

00:50:18 ◼   ► It will be a little messier, but you can't tell me it doesn't make the platform better.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Like, I just don't believe that.

00:50:27 ◼   ► Also, people are paying more money for things, right?

00:50:31 ◼   ► Like, I pay more money for YouTube Premium because I do it through the App Store.

00:50:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:35 ◼   ► If you buy – so, I actually recently encountered this.

00:50:39 ◼   ► I had some – well, I had some truck parts for sale on Facebook Marketplace, and I had never done the thing where, like, you can, like, boost or, like, buy an ad for your Marketplace thing.

00:50:52 ◼   ► I was like, I wonder what that's like.

00:50:53 ◼   ► And I went through it, and right there – they literally call it, like, an Apple tax of 30%.

00:50:58 ◼   ► Apple tax, yep.

00:50:58 ◼   ► There's a little button, and it explains Apple takes 30% of in-app purchases, and if you – you know – and unsaid is if you do it on the web, it's cheaper.

00:51:06 ◼   ► But they couldn't say that before.

00:51:08 ◼   ► Now they'll be able to, or at least link to it.

00:51:11 ◼   ► So, I mean, I have this with Instagram, right?

00:51:13 ◼   ► Like, I do boosting on Instagram, and Instagram is very aggressive.

00:51:18 ◼   ► They do the Apple tax thing, if you've ever boosted on Instagram, they email you, and they're like, Apple's taking money from you, basically.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Like, it's the email, and they're like, you should boost on the web.

00:51:28 ◼   ► Meta hates Apple so much.

00:51:29 ◼   ► It's incredible.

00:51:30 ◼   ► Of course they do.

00:51:31 ◼   ► Did you see that quote?

00:51:32 ◼   ► I actually thought it was quite funny.

00:51:34 ◼   ► I like Sundar.

00:51:34 ◼   ► No, or he's like, I'll leave Tim alone.

00:51:37 ◼   ► He's had a bad week.

00:51:38 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:51:39 ◼   ► That's actually pretty funny.

00:51:39 ◼   ► That's actually pretty funny.

00:51:40 ◼   ► That's actually pretty funny.

00:51:41 ◼   ► It was like, I like Sundar.

00:51:43 ◼   ► You know, it's pretty funny.

00:51:44 ◼   ► It was the same.

00:51:44 ◼   ► They were two halves of the same quote.

00:51:46 ◼   ► Okay, okay.

00:51:47 ◼   ► So, he's like, Tim's had a bad week, but I like Sundar.

00:51:50 ◼   ► Yeah, so good.

00:51:51 ◼   ► Like, yeah, I mean, because I, you know, I don't, I am of the feeling that I don't think that Apple deserves any of that money.

00:52:01 ◼   ► Like, for, from YouTube, I don't think they deserve any of that money from Facebook.

00:52:05 ◼   ► Like, they're not involved.

00:52:07 ◼   ► Like, Apple is only involved in the way in which they own the platform, and I don't think it's because you own the iPhone that you get to take, like, Apple is absolutely not involved in your ability to boost your truck parts on Facebook Marketplace.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Apple's providing zero for that.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Right?

00:52:24 ◼   ► Except the forcing of using their system.

00:52:27 ◼   ► It's like you're being charged to use a system you don't want to use.

00:52:30 ◼   ► Patreon is an even better example, right?

00:52:32 ◼   ► And, like, we spoke about it on this show.

00:52:34 ◼   ► We were so mad about it, and I'm so happy that now, like, Patreon uses in the U.S., they're able to now be in the app, and you can press a button, it takes you out to a web, and you sign up.

00:52:46 ◼   ► And Apple's no longer taking 30% away from individual creators because they're forced to, you know, because if you want to be in the app, which you definitely do because it's how a lot of people use Patreon, like, all that nonsense, right?

00:53:00 ◼   ► Like, and I was, I don't know if you saw it, but I was starting to see more and more of a time of, like, creators being like, do not sign up in the app store.

00:53:07 ◼   ► Like, don't do this, which is just, like, such bad marketing.

00:53:12 ◼   ► I saw it from a creator who is not a tech creator.

00:53:14 ◼   ► Like, they're a comedian kind of thing, and, like, they have a Patreon, and they talk about the end of each video, and she was like, hey, you know, do it at this link on the web, and it's, you know, better for everybody.

00:53:26 ◼   ► I was like, okay, we've crossed, like, the Rubicon here.

00:53:30 ◼   ► Like, regular people now know this is a thing, right?

00:53:33 ◼   ► I mean, this person makes a large part of their living on Patreon, but their audience is just, like, regular people.

00:53:39 ◼   ► It's not a tech audience.

00:53:41 ◼   ► And that's really the, like, the biggest thing here, besides, like, Apple had off-ramps, what they tried to do was awful, they lied in court about it, Slack messages are disgusting.

00:53:55 ◼   ► It's like, the reputational damage this company has inflicted on itself is just unbelievable to me.

00:54:02 ◼   ► And refuses to stop, right?

00:54:04 ◼   ► Like, they should take this one and just work it out, right?

00:54:08 ◼   ► Like, actually compete.

00:54:11 ◼   ► Compete.

00:54:12 ◼   ► Don't keep going to the courts.

00:54:14 ◼   ► Compete.

00:54:15 ◼   ► We've been asking you to compete for, like, five, ten years at this point, right?

00:54:20 ◼   ► Like, make this actually a competitive offering.

00:54:25 ◼   ► Legislate me into paying your tax, right?

00:54:29 ◼   ► Create a system where I have choice as a developer, but I want to use yours.

00:54:33 ◼   ► That's what they should be doing.

00:54:35 ◼   ► Yep.

00:54:36 ◼   ► Like, where it's 2025 and you can finally press a button in the Kindle app to get a book.

00:54:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:42 ◼   ► Which is, as Gruber pointed out, that is, like, the quintessential example of this.

00:54:46 ◼   ► Right?

00:54:48 ◼   ► It's like, no one understood, who didn't listen to tech podcasts, why can't I buy a Kindle book in the Kindle app on my iPhone?

00:54:54 ◼   ► And then you have to explain, well, Apple has these rules.

00:54:56 ◼   ► And, like, and there's just, they've been indefensible for a long time.

00:55:03 ◼   ► And, yes, I want Apple to compete.

00:55:05 ◼   ► Like, I had this thought yesterday and, like, you know, sometimes the last several years, Apple's done, like, a pre-WWDC thing to, like, make developers happy going into WWDC.

00:55:17 ◼   ► It's like, how great would it be if they say, hey, you know what, the 30% is gone, we're going to charge you credit card processing plus 3% or something, and you get to use our infrastructure as you always have.

00:55:27 ◼   ► Like, boy, that would change the tune for a lot of people.

00:55:32 ◼   ► But I don't think they're going to do it.

00:55:34 ◼   ► I think they're so stuck on this that they are going to, they're going to lose a lot of business to outside processing.

00:55:44 ◼   ► And they're going to continue to do harm to their brand.

00:55:48 ◼   ► And the brand is Apple's most important asset, right?

00:55:52 ◼   ► The way people feel and think about Apple is the most important thing that company has.

00:55:58 ◼   ► And to just shoot yourself in the foot over and over, over the 30%, it makes no sense to me.

00:56:05 ◼   ► You know, as you were saying that, I'm not sure that's the case anymore, man.

00:56:09 ◼   ► I think it was.

00:56:12 ◼   ► I think now just the iPhone's really good.

00:56:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:16 ◼   ► I think that the majority of customers, like Apple's customers now, don't think of them as good.

00:56:23 ◼   ► Like, in the way that they used to.

00:56:25 ◼   ► Like, we used to think of that, right?

00:56:27 ◼   ► And like, it's not that they think of them as bad, although maybe some people do.

00:56:31 ◼   ► But I just don't think a lot of people really think about them anymore.

00:56:34 ◼   ► I think they just like the iPhone.

00:56:35 ◼   ► Yeah, that's fair.

00:56:37 ◼   ► I think that's fair.

00:56:38 ◼   ► But that's also potentially something that is under attack, right?

00:56:46 ◼   ► Which we'll get to in a minute.

00:56:47 ◼   ► Because I don't necessarily want to move away from this topic.

00:56:50 ◼   ► But I just, I, my hope would be that you're right.

00:56:53 ◼   ► That like, they appeal this in court because they don't want to have their hands tied on what they can and can't do.

00:56:59 ◼   ► But also use this as an opportunity to be like, hey.

00:57:02 ◼   ► Hey.

00:57:04 ◼   ► We're going to make some big changes now.

00:57:06 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:57:06 ◼   ► But man, if we'd gotten a dollar for every time we'd said that, you know?

00:57:13 ◼   ► Like, every WWE seat that comes around, you're like, is this the year?

00:57:17 ◼   ► Is this the year?

00:57:18 ◼   ► Like, surely this is the one where they're going to do this.

00:57:20 ◼   ► But I just, I, now that it's happened, like, it's actually happened.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Like, the first hammer was, I feel like this is more devastating than the DMA.

00:57:30 ◼   ► I think so, too.

00:57:32 ◼   ► Like, it absolutely is more devastating than the DMA.

00:57:35 ◼   ► Because, well, I mean, I don't know about the DMA's fines.

00:57:40 ◼   ► If you take the fines out of the equation, just like structurally.

00:57:42 ◼   ► Because, like, Apple was able to kind of finagle its way into a system that they, you know.

00:57:49 ◼   ► And do you know what?

00:57:50 ◼   ► It's actually similar.

00:57:51 ◼   ► No, more I'm saying it of, like, oh, we just haven't gotten to that end state with the DMA yet.

00:57:55 ◼   ► Like, it's a little bit delayed.

00:57:57 ◼   ► Because the European Commission has been like, no, this thing you've done, we're not happy with it.

00:58:01 ◼   ► We're kind of, we've been at that point already with Judge Yvonne Gonzalez-Rogers.

00:58:07 ◼   ► And then we got to the resolution phase, which is now, where it's like, hey, no, we're shutting this down.

00:58:13 ◼   ► Maybe we're still going to get there with the European Commission.

00:58:18 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:19 ◼   ► But, like, this still is, like, much more harmful than the DMA stuff has been.

00:58:25 ◼   ► Because the DMA stuff still requires users to go and make choices, right?

00:58:30 ◼   ► Like, you have to go and get an alternative absolutely.

00:58:33 ◼   ► You have to care enough to go and do that.

00:58:35 ◼   ► And, like, I don't know how much of a take-up there is going to be there.

00:58:37 ◼   ► Where this is, like, every major company that's on the App Store is just going to stop using the 30% if they ever were, right?

00:58:47 ◼   ► They're just going to stop.

00:58:48 ◼   ► And then, like, that is, like, that's real bad.

00:58:51 ◼   ► Like, yeah, it's worse than a DMA effect so far.

00:58:55 ◼   ► I don't know what that effect could end up being in the future.

00:58:57 ◼   ► But the U.S. market's bigger anyway, even if they did the same thing, right?

00:59:01 ◼   ► Like, anything happening in America to Apple is worse than if it happened anywhere else in the world.

00:59:06 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:59:07 ◼   ► Do you think this kind of stuff affects the DOJ?

00:59:10 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:59:12 ◼   ► I think it's hard to nail down what the DOJ is going to do.

00:59:19 ◼   ► I mean, you see them, they're getting ready to dismantle something out of Google, for sure, and probably Meta.

00:59:25 ◼   ► I think it's harder to get a read on what the DOJ thinks about Apple currently.

00:59:29 ◼   ► You know, both political parties in the U.S., one thing they agree on is big tech companies are mostly bad.

00:59:37 ◼   ► And so that's been interesting.

00:59:39 ◼   ► But, yeah, I don't know.

00:59:40 ◼   ► You know, I think the finance VP or whoever who got referred to the attorney general for lying under oath, like, I think he's fine.

00:59:50 ◼   ► I mean, I'd be sweating bullets in hiring a lawyer, but, you know, I think, I don't know if they would pursue that necessarily.

00:59:57 ◼   ► So I don't know, man.

00:59:58 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:00:00 ◼   ► I think that however it ends up for Meta and Google with the DOJ and, you know, FTC or FCC, whoever else is involved in those cases, like, that I think is a bigger view into what might happen with Apple than this.

01:00:16 ◼   ► I don't think it's looking good for either of those companies, in all honesty.

01:00:19 ◼   ► No, it's not.

01:00:20 ◼   ► I think Google in particular is getting ready to get gutted.

01:00:23 ◼   ► Like, I think that there was an expectation that the CEOs had and that everybody else had was that if they played ball and gave money to the administration, they would be given a pass.

01:00:33 ◼   ► And I don't think that is what is happening at all.

01:00:35 ◼   ► No.

01:00:36 ◼   ► It's a shame when your corruption doesn't work, you know?

01:00:39 ◼   ► It's a real bummer.

01:00:40 ◼   ► It's real bad to do the corruption and then get nothing back, you know?

01:00:44 ◼   ► Yeah, that's where you went wrong.

01:00:47 ◼   ► That's where you went wrong.

01:00:48 ◼   ► You just, you paid the bribe money and then just, like, got nothing.

01:00:53 ◼   ► It's just, it's just disheartening, you know, to see how they've handled this.

01:01:01 ◼   ► It's a shame when you see the things you knew were happening.

01:01:03 ◼   ► Yep.

01:01:04 ◼   ► You just actually see that they were happening, so.

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01:03:04 ◼   ► Eddie Q has been on a tear with some hot takes.

01:03:12 ◼   ► He's just saying some stuff today.

01:03:14 ◼   ► He sure is.

01:03:15 ◼   ► So, this is from our friend Ryan over at 9to5Mac.

01:03:20 ◼   ► This is coming from actually from the Google case because in that case is wrapped up Apple's services money.

01:03:27 ◼   ► We're going to talk about that in a second.

01:03:28 ◼   ► This is what Eddie Q said.

01:03:30 ◼   ► You may not even need an iPhone 10 years from now as crazy as it sounds.

01:03:34 ◼   ► The only way you truly have true competition is when you have technology shifts.

01:03:39 ◼   ► Technology shifts create these opportunities.

01:03:41 ◼   ► AI is a new technology shift and it's creating new opportunities for new entrants.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Sounds like a pretty dangerous thing to say.

01:03:48 ◼   ► I think.

01:03:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:51 ◼   ► Several things in here.

01:03:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:55 ◼   ► Not great.

01:03:56 ◼   ► Not great, Eddie.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Like, I wouldn't have said that.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Like, the iPhone company is like, oh, maybe in 10 years' time we won't even be here.

01:04:04 ◼   ► Right?

01:04:05 ◼   ► Like, what is he saying?

01:04:07 ◼   ► Like, is that a good thing to say?

01:04:09 ◼   ► Like, 60% of your business is the iPhone and you're saying that within the next 10 years you might not need one?

01:04:14 ◼   ► 10 years is not very far away.

01:04:16 ◼   ► Like, it's really not that far away.

01:04:18 ◼   ► Because what that means is between now and 10 years from now, if Q is correct, the iPhone is going to start declining.

01:04:24 ◼   ► Like, is that the thing to say?

01:04:26 ◼   ► Like, what is it being replaced by?

01:04:29 ◼   ► And does Apple have that product?

01:04:31 ◼   ► Like, I think that the track record of the last 12 months would suggest that if an AI technology is going to come along, it may be an Apple.

01:04:38 ◼   ► Well, he even says that.

01:04:40 ◼   ► New entrants.

01:04:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:43 ◼   ► Also, you can have true competition without technology shifts.

01:04:47 ◼   ► See the previous 20 minutes of this podcast.

01:04:48 ◼   ► Yeah, not sure that you can.

01:04:52 ◼   ► And, yeah, what a wild thing to say.

01:04:56 ◼   ► And, I mean, we started this episode talking about the Motorola Rocker.

01:05:01 ◼   ► And the thing that people wanted was their phone and iPod in one thing.

01:05:05 ◼   ► The iPhone solved that problem and it ate the iPod alive, right?

01:05:09 ◼   ► And Apple cannibalized their own product there.

01:05:12 ◼   ► Apple hasn't really done that since, right?

01:05:15 ◼   ► There was a time where maybe the iPad was going to do it to the Mac, but that's not happening.

01:05:19 ◼   ► And what does Apple have after the iPhone that is going to be powered by a technology shift marked by AI that replaces the iPhone?

01:05:29 ◼   ► Like, I don't think anyone has that currently.

01:05:32 ◼   ► And if they do, I don't think it's going to be Apple.

01:05:35 ◼   ► Nobody has it, and I think it is a short-sighted view that people have.

01:05:40 ◼   ► Well, hang on.

01:05:40 ◼   ► HP has it.

01:05:41 ◼   ► HP has the remnants of the AI pin.

01:05:44 ◼   ► Yes.

01:05:45 ◼   ► Yeah, you're right.

01:05:46 ◼   ► You're right.

01:05:46 ◼   ► HP has humanes.

01:05:48 ◼   ► That's great for them.

01:05:48 ◼   ► But, like, I think it is short-sighted when people say, and, like, Marco says this all the time, and I don't think that it is an accurate thing to, like, don't bet against a smartphone.

01:05:58 ◼   ► That's true for right now.

01:06:00 ◼   ► I think that it is becoming increasingly clear that there is a possibility that we could be on the verge of some kind of technological shift.

01:06:09 ◼   ► And I think to assume that the smartphone is always going to be king is not the right thing to do.

01:06:14 ◼   ► Because there was stuff before the smartphone.

01:06:20 ◼   ► There will be other things.

01:06:22 ◼   ► We can't always assume that smartphones are going to be the dominant technology that people want.

01:06:28 ◼   ► I don't know what they are.

01:06:29 ◼   ► I don't know what they are.

01:06:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:30 ◼   ► But I just think that if you're all in on smartphone and you're like, we will do nothing but smartphone, I'm just not sure that that is the right move.

01:06:37 ◼   ► Because I think over time, people like their phones less.

01:06:42 ◼   ► But we all have them because we have to have them.

01:06:44 ◼   ► Right.

01:06:45 ◼   ► But who's to say that something else couldn't come along that would give you what you need?

01:06:52 ◼   ► Like, I don't know what that is.

01:06:54 ◼   ► The personal computer ran the world, you know, for years and years and years.

01:06:59 ◼   ► And then the iPhone or smartphone came along.

01:07:05 ◼   ► But the personal computer is still important.

01:07:06 ◼   ► But it's not the primary thing anymore.

01:07:09 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:09 ◼   ► Lots of people have smartphones that have never and will never have a personal computer.

01:07:14 ◼   ► And it's foolish to think that that won't happen again because it is how technology moves.

01:07:19 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:19 ◼   ► The personal computer replaced things before it.

01:07:21 ◼   ► They replaced things before it.

01:07:22 ◼   ► And so.

01:07:24 ◼   ► And as Eddie Q himself said, you might not even need an iPhone in 10 years.

01:07:27 ◼   ► Eddie said it.

01:07:29 ◼   ► Eddie said it.

01:07:30 ◼   ► Eddie, what are you doing, man?

01:07:31 ◼   ► What are you doing, Eddie?

01:07:32 ◼   ► I love Eddie Q.

01:07:34 ◼   ► It's just.

01:07:34 ◼   ► What's he doing up there?

01:07:36 ◼   ► I can't believe that quote.

01:07:38 ◼   ► You may not need an iPhone 10 years from now.

01:07:40 ◼   ► Hmm.

01:07:42 ◼   ► You think somewhere in the organization, someone just like slammed their head against the desk when they read this?

01:07:48 ◼   ► Genuinely feels like an episode of Veep to me.

01:07:50 ◼   ► Like, I cannot fathom a world in which that was a thing that everybody agreed he should say when he went up there.

01:07:59 ◼   ► Like, maybe it was.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And that's why they sent Eddie.

01:08:03 ◼   ► Because, like, he's the guy you would believe it if he said it, you know, like, of all the executives.

01:08:07 ◼   ► But, like, genuinely to me, like, that feels like a huge risk factor.

01:08:12 ◼   ► Like, if you're doing your SWOT analysis, like, Eddie just made threat, you know?

01:08:17 ◼   ► Like, I really, I find that to be so strange, especially to be, like, in the same breath, to be, like, it's creating new opportunities for new entrants.

01:08:26 ◼   ► New entrants that will mean that your iPhone isn't needed anymore.

01:08:32 ◼   ► It's just a wild thing to say.

01:08:34 ◼   ► And I know you can say, Mike, you're really pressing on this.

01:08:37 ◼   ► But, like, Apple never say anything that they shouldn't say, right?

01:08:42 ◼   ► Now, the problem is you put these people in a courtroom scenario where it's not, like, it's an incredibly rehearsed thing.

01:08:48 ◼   ► And they might just say it.

01:08:49 ◼   ► But, like, that's why it's interesting to me.

01:08:50 ◼   ► Why is Eddie even thinking about this?

01:08:52 ◼   ► Are people talking about this?

01:08:53 ◼   ► Is Tim Cook saying this?

01:08:55 ◼   ► And, like, Eddie's just said it?

01:08:56 ◼   ► Because Tim says it as well?

01:08:57 ◼   ► Like, do they all talk about this?

01:08:59 ◼   ► Like, it's, I find it fascinating.

01:09:01 ◼   ► But that's not all.

01:09:02 ◼   ► That's not all.

01:09:04 ◼   ► No.

01:09:05 ◼   ► Quote from The Verge.

01:09:06 ◼   ► I think this is from The Verge.

01:09:07 ◼   ► It's from The Verge on that five.

01:09:08 ◼   ► We've got two links in here.

01:09:09 ◼   ► Apple is going to add AI search providers to the Safari browser on iPhone, iPad, and Mac.

01:09:15 ◼   ► Bloomberg reports.

01:09:16 ◼   ► So it's from Bloomberg.

01:09:17 ◼   ► Quoted from somebody else.

01:09:19 ◼   ► Bloomberg reports Apple SVP ADQ made the disclosure in court testimony today state, in quote,

01:09:24 ◼   ► we will add them to the list.

01:09:26 ◼   ► They probably won't be the default in reference to providers like Perplexity and Anthropik.

01:09:31 ◼   ► So this makes a lot of sense, right, that Apple would be considering adding LLM search engines

01:09:38 ◼   ► to the search engine list.

01:09:40 ◼   ► It's going to be really interesting to me to see if AI companies build specific UI for this

01:09:46 ◼   ► use case, like the use case of you type into the Safari search bar and a search begins.

01:09:52 ◼   ► Because that system is slower than Google right now, right?

01:09:55 ◼   ► And I wonder, like, are they going to create, will they create some kind of UI that is good

01:10:00 ◼   ► for it?

01:10:00 ◼   ► I wonder if, like, en masse, if these tools are tailored to delivering web searches in

01:10:05 ◼   ► the way that people expect.

01:10:06 ◼   ► It's a very different experience.

01:10:08 ◼   ► I think in a lot of places it is a much better experience than just a straight Google search

01:10:12 ◼   ► now.

01:10:12 ◼   ► And I do wonder in this world, like, if Apple will convince people or, like, will suggest

01:10:21 ◼   ► that people should switch, will they give a choice?

01:10:24 ◼   ► Or will, you know, Perplexity, Anthropik, OpenAI, are they going to try and convince people?

01:10:29 ◼   ► I think OpenAI could do a pretty good shot at it, right?

01:10:32 ◼   ► Like, if they could put it in the ChatGPT app.

01:10:34 ◼   ► Hey, by the way, do you want to use this in Safari?

01:10:37 ◼   ► It'll be very interesting, like, to see how that goes.

01:10:40 ◼   ► But I'm intrigued to see them doing this.

01:10:43 ◼   ► But there was another thing that Q said.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Q also revealed that the number...

01:10:50 ◼   ► Now, this one, obviously, he was allowed to say.

01:10:51 ◼   ► I'm going to just guess that Eddie was allowed to say this.

01:10:54 ◼   ► This is what they wanted him to say.

01:10:55 ◼   ► The rest of it was just, you know, off the cuff.

01:10:58 ◼   ► We're not sure.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Yeah, he was given one thing and he's like, oh, by the way, the iPhone's dead.

01:11:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:02 ◼   ► Got some other things.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Hey, I'm here, you know.

01:11:05 ◼   ► I'm selling all my stock and I'm going to Cuba.

01:11:08 ◼   ► Like, I'm done.

01:11:08 ◼   ► Q also revealed that the number of searches through Safari fell for the first time ever in

01:11:15 ◼   ► April, suggesting users are looking to AI sources as alternative ways to find information.

01:11:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:21 ◼   ► This is super interesting to me.

01:11:25 ◼   ► Like, are people using other search engines?

01:11:28 ◼   ► As he's talking...

01:11:31 ◼   ► I think he's talking specifically about Google searches, but it's kind of unclear in what the reporting is.

01:11:38 ◼   ► Are people using things like...

01:11:40 ◼   ► I mean, it's Google searches.

01:11:41 ◼   ► It's Google searches.

01:11:42 ◼   ► Yeah, so people are, you know, using Kagi or DuckDuckGo or whatever, or people using

01:11:47 ◼   ► ChatGPT for search and not even searching in Safari anymore, like going to the ChatGPT app,

01:11:51 ◼   ► to your point earlier, they're going to, you know, potentially build those things in.

01:11:55 ◼   ► And I do think, to answer your question, that they will build some sort of user interface

01:11:59 ◼   ► that works better in those sorts of use cases.

01:12:02 ◼   ► It's a bit lighter.

01:12:03 ◼   ► I mean, you can see, by the way, that ChatGPT have already started, like, open AI.

01:12:07 ◼   ► Did you see their shopping thing?

01:12:08 ◼   ► Mm-mm.

01:12:09 ◼   ► So if you're doing a query that is kind of focused around products, they have kind of

01:12:15 ◼   ► like a new UI that you get, which shows more imagery of products and stuff like that.

01:12:21 ◼   ► Like, it's a bit more tailored around you want to shop, and it's using what it knows about

01:12:26 ◼   ► you to make recommendations that the system thinks would be specifically tailored to you

01:12:31 ◼   ► as an individual in your preferences.

01:12:33 ◼   ► So, like, you can see that they might not even need to, quote-unquote, build the search engine

01:12:38 ◼   ► that people thought they're going to build if Apple just gives them a hook into Safari.

01:12:43 ◼   ► It's like, oh, we just created, like, a slimmed-down version of the ChatGPT interface,

01:12:47 ◼   ► which is, like, specifically tailored to searches.

01:12:50 ◼   ► And it will just, we have, like, a UI there, rather than being like, oh, you know,

01:12:54 ◼   ► we're building, like, a, quote-unquote, search engine.

01:12:56 ◼   ► So if you go to ChatGPT, you just type it into Safari.

01:12:59 ◼   ► Yeah. Oh, yeah, I just got it. I just, I was like, send me some options for Tacoma

01:13:03 ◼   ► headlights, and it's like, it looks like Google Shopping. It's just, like, a bunch of cards,

01:13:07 ◼   ► and I can scroll through them, and there's some information below them with links.

01:13:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:11 ◼   ► These are some pretty good suggestions, actually.

01:13:13 ◼   ► It does have good suggestions. This is, this is what turned me around on using ChatGPT

01:13:20 ◼   ► for searching, was when I was trying to find baby products, because Google was terrible

01:13:24 ◼   ► at this, because there's so much sponsored stuff, and it's also, like, there's, like,

01:13:30 ◼   ► a thousand articles that I've got to try and go through if I don't want to go through Google

01:13:34 ◼   ► Shopping, because I don't trust that either, because it's, like, people are just, it's just

01:13:37 ◼   ► pay to win.

01:13:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:38 ◼   ► And so I was using ChatGPT more, and, like, again, it was, like, I could refine what I was

01:13:43 ◼   ► looking for based on the answers that it was giving me, and it was reading the 1,000 top

01:13:48 ◼   ► 20 lists that I didn't have the time to read.

01:13:50 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:13:50 ◼   ► And that was when I really started using it more for searches, and, like, it's very

01:13:56 ◼   ► good.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:56 ◼   ► I went to Shopping GPT, which is, like, a thing they've set up, but, darling, let's get into

01:14:04 ◼   ► some glamorous, into the glamorous world of MacBooks, shall we?

01:14:07 ◼   ► Apple's lineup is sleek, powerful, and oh-so-stylish, but choosing the right one depends on your taste

01:14:13 ◼   ► and your needs.

01:14:14 ◼   ► That's all italicized.

01:14:15 ◼   ► So I've whipped up a fabulous comparison table of the current MacBook lineup to help

01:14:20 ◼   ► you slay your tech decisions like a pro.

01:14:22 ◼   ► Why is it talking like this?

01:14:24 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:14:24 ◼   ► I think you found something weird.

01:14:26 ◼   ► I don't think you're into it.

01:14:26 ◼   ► No, there's a shopping GPT, like, that, it just, it, when I asked, I just asked regular

01:14:31 ◼   ► ChatGPT for Tacoma headlight suggestions, and it was, like, try shopping GPT, and it sent

01:14:38 ◼   ► me to this, and it's, like, a custom GPT with, that's, um, zesty.

01:14:43 ◼   ► Got a personality.

01:14:44 ◼   ► A little, little, little zest, darling.

01:14:47 ◼   ► Interesting.

01:14:47 ◼   ► Darling, get out the charge gun.

01:14:50 ◼   ► Yeah, whatever's going on here, I think there's two, like, high-level things.

01:14:55 ◼   ► One, uh, we've talked, people have talked for a while that Google is potentially in trouble

01:15:02 ◼   ► as AI search gets better, this is a huge point towards that debate, I think.

01:15:08 ◼   ► Like, if people are using AI to search instead of Google and Safari, that's, that's not good

01:15:14 ◼   ► for Google.

01:15:14 ◼   ► Um, but also wrapped up in this is the $20 billion annually that Apple has from Google to be the

01:15:24 ◼   ► default.

01:15:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:25 ◼   ► And, uh, so I went to, uh, sixcolors.com, this website written by Jeopardy player Dan

01:15:33 ◼   ► Morin and some other people, and, uh, so in 2024, services were $93.5 billion.

01:15:41 ◼   ► That means Apple made up, or Google, excuse me, Google made up roughly 21% of the services

01:15:47 ◼   ► number last year.

01:15:48 ◼   ► So if the court says you can't pay that anymore, which I don't know if that would happen or not,

01:15:54 ◼   ► or they may have changed the deal.

01:15:55 ◼   ► But right now, if it went away, it'd be like losing almost an entire quarter's worth of

01:16:01 ◼   ► services revenue over the course of a year.

01:16:03 ◼   ► I mean, it's wild.

01:16:05 ◼   ► That number could be, is way higher.

01:16:07 ◼   ► That was $20 billion was in 2022.

01:16:09 ◼   ► That's grown.

01:16:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:11 ◼   ► Okay.

01:16:11 ◼   ► So yeah.

01:16:12 ◼   ► That's definitely grown.

01:16:13 ◼   ► So like, you know, it's probably one of the reasons that number keeps going up.

01:16:18 ◼   ► Right?

01:16:20 ◼   ► It's like one of the reasons that, that keeps going up on that chart from Dan Morin and

01:16:24 ◼   ► co, uh, keeps going up is that like, cause it's a, um, it's a revenue share, right?

01:16:30 ◼   ► Yes.

01:16:31 ◼   ► But I guess here's the thing.

01:16:33 ◼   ► Is it going to have gone down if searches went down in April?

01:16:36 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:16:37 ◼   ► They're probably going to, I mean, this is, I don't know what's going to happen to that

01:16:41 ◼   ► money, right?

01:16:42 ◼   ► Like maybe Google won't stop paying it, but somebody else will.

01:16:44 ◼   ► No one's going to pay them that much money, but maybe they can, they can get it up in, in

01:16:48 ◼   ► pieces from other people, you know, like open AI pays some, Anthropic pays some, DuckDuckGo

01:16:53 ◼   ► pays some, you know?

01:16:57 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:16:57 ◼   ► Wild times.

01:16:59 ◼   ► But we don't have to worry about it anyway, cause in 10 years the iPhone won't exist.

01:17:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:02 ◼   ► We'll be searching on our, uh, our Steve Jobs edition AR glasses.

01:17:07 ◼   ► Quickly, before we leave, I wanted to talk about the, uh, rumor of an iPhone, an iPhone,

01:17:13 ◼   ► an iPhone, a split iPhone release schedule.

01:17:20 ◼   ► So lots of reporting over the last couple of days, uh, including from the information

01:17:25 ◼   ► that for 2026, uh, Apple could be looking at some iPhones coming out in the fall and then

01:17:33 ◼   ► other phones coming in the spring.

01:17:35 ◼   ► So you could see a world where the iPhone pro the air, and maybe the foldable are all in

01:17:41 ◼   ► the fall of 26 and the regular phones and the e-phone are in 2027.

01:17:47 ◼   ► We don't think it's a great idea.

01:17:48 ◼   ► Like I think it's easier for Apple.

01:17:52 ◼   ► It's gives, I mean, I think a lot of people who buy a regular phone, like definitely a lot

01:17:56 ◼   ► of people wait cause they know the phones in the fall, but people will learn that, oh, the

01:18:00 ◼   ► regular phone comes out in the spring.

01:18:01 ◼   ► And a lot of people just don't care.

01:18:02 ◼   ► They buy a phone when they need it.

01:18:03 ◼   ► I don't really see much downside to this, honestly, other than what kind of impact it

01:18:09 ◼   ► could have on Apple's holiday quarter.

01:18:10 ◼   ► That'd be interesting to see.

01:18:11 ◼   ► I think the fact that they'll introduce more expensive iPhones will cover that up nicely.

01:18:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:18:16 ◼   ► The foldable is going to be pricey.

01:18:18 ◼   ► It'd be at two grand.

01:18:19 ◼   ► I'm operating more, 2,500, something like that.

01:18:22 ◼   ► Like it's going to be, it's going to be expensive.

01:18:24 ◼   ► Like they're going to make you pay for that.

01:18:25 ◼   ► Like if they think you're going to want an, you're not going to need an iPad anymore, they're

01:18:29 ◼   ► going to make you pay for an iPad.

01:18:30 ◼   ► You know, you're going to be paying for both.

01:18:33 ◼   ► But I'm fine with that.

01:18:35 ◼   ► I do a whole episode of MPU where like, I don't really use the iPad very much.

01:18:38 ◼   ► Then I buy a foldable iPhone that costs just as much.

01:18:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:18:42 ◼   ► But I listen, I'm halfway through that episode.

01:18:44 ◼   ► So like, I know the things that you're doing on a foldable, that you're doing on an iPad,

01:18:47 ◼   ► you're doing a foldable phone, which video on it, like your rebooks on it.

01:18:50 ◼   ► Like it will be really nice.

01:18:51 ◼   ► Like I'm, I'm very excited about the potential for this product.

01:18:55 ◼   ► Me too.

01:18:55 ◼   ► But I am very aware of the fact that I'm going to pay for it.

01:18:59 ◼   ► You know, like I always think back to Federico saying like, I pay $3,500 on a Vision Pro.

01:19:04 ◼   ► I'll pay $3,500 for this instead.

01:19:06 ◼   ► Like charge me more than the iPhone and iPad together and I'll pay it.

01:19:10 ◼   ► Because, you know, the possibilities for that product could be really, really, really good.

01:19:15 ◼   ► Like really, really, really good if the hardware is there.

01:19:19 ◼   ► But I, I also, yeah, the split iPhone thing, I think makes sense.

01:19:22 ◼   ► Like logistically, it makes sense.

01:19:25 ◼   ► Marketing wise, it makes sense.

01:19:26 ◼   ► They clearly, the pro phones do so well for them.

01:19:31 ◼   ► They may as well double down on that and like continue, obviously continue having a wider lineup.

01:19:37 ◼   ► And, but this will allow them to continue expanding that lineup by having it split in, in two places.

01:19:44 ◼   ► And they can definitely handle revising the products multiple times, like throughout the course of the year.

01:19:50 ◼   ► You know, they're a big company.

01:19:52 ◼   ► Well, it's going to be fun.

01:19:55 ◼   ► I feel like a lot of things are like right in the process of changing right now in this industry.

01:20:00 ◼   ► And that's, that's fun.

01:20:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:05 ◼   ► I mean, not if you're Tim Cook, but whatever.

01:20:08 ◼   ► Well, things are changing.

01:20:09 ◼   ► It's just wherever he wants them to or not.

01:20:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:20:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:12 ◼   ► Well, I think that does it.

01:20:15 ◼   ► We, we've made it to the end.

01:20:17 ◼   ► We have links to all the stuff we spoke about in the show notes.

01:20:21 ◼   ► They're in your podcast player and they're on the web at relay.fm slash connected slash 551.

01:20:27 ◼   ► There's a link to send us feedback or follow up.

01:20:30 ◼   ► So drop us a note.

01:20:31 ◼   ► You can make it anonymous if you want to.

01:20:33 ◼   ► There's a little checkbox there.

01:20:34 ◼   ► And you can join and get connected pro, which is a longer ad free version of the show that

01:20:40 ◼   ► we do each and every week.

01:20:41 ◼   ► So no ads, extra content at the beginning and the end.

01:20:44 ◼   ► This week, we talked about how this show, the outline got blown up like 20 minutes before

01:20:50 ◼   ► we started recording.

01:20:51 ◼   ► And then we got distracted about ceramic Apple watches.

01:20:55 ◼   ► So yeah, pretty typical stuff.

01:20:58 ◼   ► If you want to find more of us, Federico is the editor in chief of Mac stories.net.

01:21:04 ◼   ► Mike hosts many shows here on relay and check out his work at Cortex brand.

01:21:09 ◼   ► Tell us about the pocket notebooks.

01:21:10 ◼   ► Yeah, we released some pocket notebooks called the sidekick pocket and come in three versions.

01:21:17 ◼   ► There's a dot grid, a to do version and a lined version.

01:21:20 ◼   ► I think people listening to the show will appreciate what I did with the lined version.

01:21:24 ◼   ► Go look at the website and you'll see it.

01:21:26 ◼   ► I hope that you'll get the reference.

01:21:28 ◼   ► We're really pleased with them.

01:21:30 ◼   ► You get two in a pack.

01:21:32 ◼   ► There's 60 pages in each.

01:21:33 ◼   ► It's really well made.

01:21:35 ◼   ► 100% recycled paper.

01:21:36 ◼   ► Very, very high quality materials.

01:21:38 ◼   ► I think you'll dig them.

01:21:39 ◼   ► Go check them out at cortexbrand.com.

01:21:41 ◼   ► I've got some dot grid they shipped yesterday.

01:21:43 ◼   ► I'm very excited.

01:21:44 ◼   ► Oh, I can't wait to see what you think about it.

01:21:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm pumped.

01:21:47 ◼   ► You can find my writing at 512pixels.net.

01:21:51 ◼   ► There's a lot of like AI angst on 512 right now, but look, they're polluting my city.

01:21:56 ◼   ► What am I going to do?

01:21:57 ◼   ► And I host Mac power users here on relay each and every Sunday.

01:22:01 ◼   ► Next, this week's about Alfred.

01:22:03 ◼   ► It's pretty good.

01:22:03 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors this week for their support of the show.

01:22:08 ◼   ► Squarespace, NetSuite, and ZocDoc.

01:22:10 ◼   ► And until next time, Mike, say goodbye.

01:22:12 ◼   ► Bye-bye.

01:22:14 ◼   ► Bye, y'all.