00:01:46 ◼ ► Like this is the first time somebody published this as an idea as to how you should live your life
00:02:30 ◼ ► in the ways that they tell their anecdotes of all of the weird, wild and wonderful things
00:03:29 ◼ ► But from the way it was described, some of the references were changed in that 1980s version.
00:03:34 ◼ ► And this book changed them again, kind of back more to some of the original references that were made.
00:04:12 ◼ ► And it's why I'm pretty sure this is my third time, because I remember I read it a second time.
00:04:30 ◼ ► Whatever it was, I felt like all of these changes were negative in the way that, like, modernizations often can be.
00:04:41 ◼ ► And so my reread this time, I was very aware, like, oh, this feels like the book that I read in high school.
00:04:49 ◼ ► And it really did feel in the forward, like, they were subtweeting, like, whoever the people were who had made the decision about, like, the updated 80s version.
00:04:57 ◼ ► Because they were all like, we're going back to, like, the original thing that was actually good.
00:05:03 ◼ ► But I did feel like, oh, man, if someone's going to read this book, I do think this is probably the version to read.
00:05:09 ◼ ► Like, slightly updated and slightly modernized, but actually keeping everything about it that was old.
00:05:16 ◼ ► Because for me, I think this book doesn't work at all without this, like, golly gee, American Midwest friendly kind of style.
00:05:41 ◼ ► And I think if you took that out, it would just be unbearably tedious in a bunch of ways.
00:06:01 ◼ ► Like, a version where you tried to replace the story with examples from modern business leaders, I just think would be absolute death, which I imagine is what happened in, like, the previous updates to this book.
00:06:11 ◼ ► But, yeah, it's like, I don't know if you felt this way, but, like, I just kept having this feeling of, like, oh, this book is, like, a kind of vision of an idealized Americana.
00:06:24 ◼ ► It's just, like, it's so American, this book, in this, like, get-things-done, charming spirit, like, everyone's trying to work things out, and, like, aren't we all industrious getting things accomplished?
00:06:41 ◼ ► So it's just, like, very interesting to have this reread, because when you suggested this version, I was expecting, like, oh, no, it's going to be another, like, bad third version of an update.
00:06:52 ◼ ► And I was originally planning to be, like, I'm going to read this and also then, like, compare back to the original, but I didn't feel the need to do that at all.
00:07:03 ◼ ► Yeah, I was expecting that the updated for the new generation version that we read, I thought it was going to be, like, oh, so here's how you send an email.
00:07:11 ◼ ► You know, I thought there was going to be some of that in here, and I actually appreciate that it's not in here.
00:07:16 ◼ ► I think what makes this book so successful is that it is so timeless, in that, essentially, a lot of the things that they're talking about is just how to have good conversations with people.
00:07:37 ◼ ► I think I mentioned this on the last episode, but when I read the title, How to Win Friends and Influence People, it sounds a little bit more predatory than the book actually is.
00:07:49 ◼ ► There is a little bit of this, and I'll touch on this a bit later on in the episode, where at some points it's like, are we actually trying to build real relationships, or are we trying to, like, make people think we are?
00:08:00 ◼ ► Like, I think that sometimes it gets up to that line, and sometimes maybe a bit too far over it, but I think that the title, to me, at least, sounds quite manipulative, but I don't feel that the book is actually trying to suggest that that's how you should live your life.
00:08:14 ◼ ► Like, I think the book itself, and Carnegie very frequently gives the message of actually trying to genuinely do the things that he's suggesting, and if you don't genuinely want to do that,
00:08:30 ◼ ► they won't work, and I think that that is a really good framing of, like, you actually have to want to listen to what someone tells you.
00:08:41 ◼ ► You know, there's a lot of that in the book of, like, you can more effectively bring someone around to your way of thinking if you actually care about them, listen to them, and want to hear what they have to say.
00:08:51 ◼ ► And if you're not willing to actually do that, then you will not be able to get through to them.
00:09:00 ◼ ► And so, I think that maybe in a modern context, I don't know how it was felt at the time, I'm not sure that the title gives the affability that the book itself contains.
00:09:22 ◼ ► Again, basically, in my own history of reading this, I feel like, oh, when I was in high school and read it for the first time, there's a way in which this book is, I think you can kind of compress a lot of it down to a manual about basic politeness in human interactions in normal circumstances.
00:09:44 ◼ ► I was just like, hey, did you try it this way instead of being, like, the most abrasive version of yourself possible?
00:09:58 ◼ ► I also think of everything that we have read on the show so far, it is clearly the most approachable of all of the books.
00:10:06 ◼ ► Like, I could recommend this to a normal person and they could read it and get something out of it.
00:10:10 ◼ ► Whereas most of the books, like, unless you have a specific thing you're trying to get out of it, they're just, like, unbearable.
00:10:16 ◼ ► However, the book exists on this real knife's edge for me where – it's why I mentioned this, like, golly gee Americana Midwest thing is, like, if you are taking the book in that mode, I think it is very good.
00:10:31 ◼ ► As you said there, Dale Carnegie is spending a lot of work trying to reframe your mind from this is not a bag of tricks.
00:10:46 ◼ ► But nonetheless, it exists on this knife's edge where I kept finding, like, in little moments, if you can't hold the world that way in your brain, it just falls into just, like, unbearably cynical take on humanity in a way that it doesn't intend to at all.
00:11:07 ◼ ► So when you say, like, ah, the title, like, how to win friends and influence people, I think the title is perfect because it can be both things.
00:11:16 ◼ ► It can be this, like, really genuine, like, how do you influence people in a positive way?
00:11:24 ◼ ► But also, nonetheless, even though this is advocating, like, a real genuine approach to human interaction, it still is a bag of tricks that, like, actually can work a bunch.
00:11:43 ◼ ► And it's, like, those ones are particularly jarring sometimes to come across of, like, ah, everything's really, really friendly.
00:11:50 ◼ ► But then there is some example which just kind of makes my stomach turn to be, like, oh, that's not being genuine about liking people at all.
00:12:05 ◼ ► So that's how I kept, like, feeling through the book is, like, oh, there's parts of this I really love, as with many of these books, especially in the beginning.
00:12:18 ◼ ► So, like, it's broken down into four sections, fundamental techniques in handling people, six ways to make people like you, how to win people to your way of thinking, and be a leader, how to change people without giving offense or arousing resentment.
00:12:35 ◼ ► And especially once you get to the leader stuff, that's where I felt like it really turns with some of the examples.
00:12:40 ◼ ► Because it's, like, functionally, it's, like, you're trying to get stuff out of people, and they don't always want to give it to you.
00:12:46 ◼ ► And then, like, it's not that he's wrong, but it's where the charming style runs up against a certain kind of pragmatism.
00:12:54 ◼ ► And that's where it can feel like a kind of cynicism of, like, oh, actually, you want to convince yourself that you're being very charming and genuine about these interactions in order to make the trick work better.
00:13:08 ◼ ► Well, I think that this is actually, realistically, to be fair to Dale Carnegie, a problem with leading teams, leading people.
00:13:32 ◼ ► Like, there's a lot of deception in leadership if it's being done, quote, unquote, correctly.
00:13:38 ◼ ► And I think people may hear that and be like, oh, no, I want my manager to be honest with me.
00:13:48 ◼ ► Like, the managers who put on you the pressure they are receiving, they are the bad managers.
00:14:10 ◼ ► But that does actually run counter to what comes earlier in the book, which is all, like, genuine, earnest stuff.
00:14:19 ◼ ► Where, like, later on in the book, it's like, what if you, instead of saying the thing you actually feel, what if, like, you sugarcoat something significantly to something?
00:14:30 ◼ ► So that is helpful, I think, if you're in that mode, but it's not what really spoke to me from this book, anyway.
00:14:47 ◼ ► And I think those kinds of principles are what makes, quote, going into management so difficult for some people, right?
00:14:54 ◼ ► Of, like, I don't want to be this wall where, you know, all the crap running downhill and it stops with me.
00:15:01 ◼ ► A lot of people want to pass it on because they don't want to have to just take all that.
00:15:09 ◼ ► Well, the real fundamental problem for Dale Carnegie and for the book is in life, the way humans are, there is a fundamental tradeoff between two things, social cohesion and truth-telling.
00:15:26 ◼ ► There is just no getting around that, that in big and small ways, if you, like, turn up the dial on certain kinds of truth-telling, it decreases social cohesion.
00:15:39 ◼ ► Like, that's why when I say, oh, high school me needed this, is high school me, like a lot of annoying high schoolers, is, like, was very dialed up on, like, I'm just going to say things the way they are.
00:15:50 ◼ ► Like, even when it was, like, massively unhelpful to my own goals, it's like, oh, because what was I doing?
00:15:56 ◼ ► I was causing problems in, like, social cohesion in pointless ways that are accomplishing nothing.
00:16:08 ◼ ► And so this book is a great antidote and very helpful if someone is dialed up on, like, truth-telling versus, like, the social cohesion side.
00:16:21 ◼ ► And, like, every time I don't like an example, that's the part that's sticking with me is, like, this unacknowledged tradeoff.
00:16:29 ◼ ► And again, like, I'm using the phrase truth-telling because I'm trying to say something gentler than lying.
00:16:43 ◼ ► That's what I mean by, like, holding back on truth-telling to, like, encourage social cohesion is, like, a different thing from lying.
00:16:50 ◼ ► And even a lot of the examples in the beginning, fundamentally, that is the lesson is, like, hold back on a truth-telling.
00:17:01 ◼ ► Now, again, generally, that's, like, very good advice if you're trying to get along in the world, which is why I do really like the title, like, How to Win Friends and Influence People.
00:17:11 ◼ ► But I feel like there's two unspoken conflicts in the book, and that is the first unspoken conflict, that you cannot have both of these things, truth-telling and social cohesion.
00:17:24 ◼ ► And there's, like, another tradeoff that I feel is kind of unacknowledged in the book that we get to, like, straight away.
00:17:29 ◼ ► But otherwise, like, again, it's very good as long as you keep that in mind of, like, that is what is happening.
00:17:43 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, like, a good example of this is attending a family gathering, and your uncle's saying some mad conspiracy theory, and you have a choice, right?
00:18:00 ◼ ► Now, if you challenge Uncle Pete to what you believe is the truth, you've now upset the rest of the afternoon, right?
00:18:14 ◼ ► I'm just, like, very keenly aware of this, of, like, oh, what did this book change in me?
00:18:24 ◼ ► But I think this book is responsible for a certain way that, like, I fixed something about myself when I was younger of I can be in conversation with someone who disagrees with me and not, like, constantly have to bring it up to that person that I disagree with them.
00:18:48 ◼ ► But what is the byproduct of that that I'm often aware of is that when I am talking to people, again, if I'm in, like, normal social mode, I am extremely aware of how the other person thinks I agree with them much more than I actually do.
00:19:05 ◼ ► It's because you notice, like, oh, people just aren't asking follow-up questions, right?
00:19:08 ◼ ► So there is a certain kind of way of it's, like, ah, I'm making this situation socially cohesive.
00:19:13 ◼ ► But I don't like that holding back of truth-telling because it leaves the other person with the feeling that, like, oh, you agree with them much more than they do.
00:19:22 ◼ ► The family getting together and someone's telling conspiracy theories thing is, like, a perfect example of in those moments when someone doesn't hear disagreement, if you ask them follow-up questions about, like,
00:19:35 ◼ ► what they think is happening, you will realize very quickly, like, oh, they think that people who aren't actively disagreeing with them are agreeing with them.
00:19:43 ◼ ► And it's just, like, a strange phenomenon, like, once you tune into it, that, like, oh, people will take the most, like, mild of, like, seemingly sounding affirmation kind of statements as agreement.
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00:22:02 ◼ ► So the first set of principles, the first section is fundamental techniques in handling people.
00:22:09 ◼ ► And there are three principles here, which is don't criticize, condemn, or complain, give honest and sincere appreciation, and arouse in the other person an eager want.
00:22:23 ◼ ► Essentially, what the book and what Carnegie is asking you to do here is to try and meet people where they are, right?
00:22:32 ◼ ► When you're having conversations with people, listen to them and get involved with them and try not to criticize people.
00:22:49 ◼ ► It's established earlier in the book, and I think comes throughout the book, which is something that I have learned in my many ways of managing and dealing with people in a professional context over the years.
00:23:03 ◼ ► Is that essentially, one of the only ways you can ever get anybody to ever do something for you is to make them want to do it themselves.
00:23:15 ◼ ► I consider my ability to arouse enthusiasm among my people the greatest asset I possess, and the way to develop the best that is in a person is by appreciation and encouragement.
00:23:28 ◼ ► It's like you've got to be able to encourage people to want to do something, make them feel important, and make them feel like the work they are doing is important if they work with you or for you.
00:23:39 ◼ ► There's a section that sort of redoubles down on that point, which I like as a kind of more actionable interpretation of this, where he's talking about you should try to notice where other people derive their feeling of importance from.
00:23:52 ◼ ► That, to me, is just like, ah, what a clear way to try to think about this, is like, notice the way they talk, notice what they're talking about, how they refer to themselves.
00:24:04 ◼ ► Like, you're trying to key into where does this person derive their sense of importance from, and how, like, that tells you a ton about the person.
00:24:14 ◼ ► Like, it gives you a lot of insight into, like, how they're framing their life and how they're thinking about things.
00:24:28 ◼ ► Is it in something, like, they're achieving well in terms of a hobby or, like, whatever it is.
00:24:33 ◼ ► But almost everyone is going to have something that is, like, the center of how they define their own feeling of importance.
00:24:45 ◼ ► Like, from a professional context, and I will talk a little bit later on about how I'm thinking of applying this book in a personal context.
00:24:53 ◼ ► But in a professional context, one of the things that you're talking about, about, like, the important stuff, is you need to find ways to give people genuine, honest appreciation.
00:25:12 ◼ ► Like, this is something that I'd kind of clued into a number of years ago about working with people.
00:25:17 ◼ ► This is the thing that I learned much more in my self-employed professional life as, I think, kind of a reflection on my corporate professional life.
00:25:26 ◼ ► Where I did spend many years in management and didn't do very well at it because I was too young and didn't have very good social skills at that point.
00:25:34 ◼ ► But people really like genuine appreciation and to be made to feel like their work is valued.
00:25:40 ◼ ► And it is very important in your professional relationships that you find the things that somebody is doing well and tell them they're doing it well.
00:25:56 ◼ ► Like, sometimes, you know, someone's working on something for you and maybe they're not doing the exact job that you want them to do.
00:26:07 ◼ ► But that works not as well as being able to tell someone kind of what they do well and ask them to try and apply that to this other thing.
00:26:17 ◼ ► Like, that is a much more effective way of getting somebody to change the way that they're doing something is to help them understand why they're good.
00:26:34 ◼ ► There's always this way where you can take a book and condense it down into five, like, incredibly obvious statements.
00:26:51 ◼ ► But as with all of these things, it's like the sequence of words and the vector by which they are delivered, like, critically matters.
00:26:59 ◼ ► And I think, like, this book is good at actually trying to get you to think about what this means.
00:27:05 ◼ ► And the truth is also, like, you can just see it in the world that, like, these are very obvious statements.
00:27:12 ◼ ► But the vast majority of people do not follow these ideas almost all the time in almost every single interaction.
00:27:23 ◼ ► But he said, like, the most obvious one, which, again, I remember this really stuck in my head.
00:27:28 ◼ ► But it's like, he just makes the comment of how, like, oh, most people go through life and when they like something, they don't say anything at all.
00:27:47 ◼ ► It's so obvious, but it is a thing that, like, I catch in myself all the time of, like, trying to remember and do that.
00:28:13 ◼ ► Where, like, in the inverse, you are much more likely to hear from people who are unhappy with a thing that you did or a way that you did something than you are to hear from all the people that really liked it because they just won't tell you.
00:28:26 ◼ ► And, like, that principle exists in something that Dale Carnegie could never have imagined.
00:28:34 ◼ ► Like, and it's very funny because I think it speaks to the reason this book works is that it is so first principle kind of stuff.
00:28:44 ◼ ► Like, it is very basic interpersonal relationships, even if those interpersonal relationships in a modern context aren't actually interpersonal.
00:28:57 ◼ ► There's a whole section where he talks about, it's like, hey, if you're just really mad, it's okay to do the thing where you write the first version of the letter of, like, I'm so mad about you for doing whatever.
00:29:15 ◼ ► It's only, like, 5% of the time it takes to get the thing from somewhere to somewhere else.
00:29:24 ◼ ► It's like, oh, it's just very funny because this is just, like, the old-timey version of, like, hey, maybe just, like, put your tweets in a draft folder and, like, give it an hour and think about it later.
00:29:37 ◼ ► Well, the thing that I do so much is, like, write the email and then before I finished it, just delete it and close it.
00:29:47 ◼ ► But it's like, what works about this is, I think it's why some of the modernizations don't work, is when you are thinking about old physical tools, it just gets in your brain very clearly.
00:29:57 ◼ ► Like, you can just visualize what is this thing versus when someone's describing, like, what happens on the computer.
00:30:06 ◼ ► And I think this is why I was, like, impossibly charmed by all of the old examples of whatever.
00:30:13 ◼ ► Yeah, imagining him sitting down and using a typewriter is way more fun than him poking at an iPhone.
00:30:22 ◼ ► But I think that, again, like, that kind of slowness does help kind of instill the imagery of the book.
00:30:29 ◼ ► So going back to just what we were saying before about the book, it's like, principle one and principle two is the core.
00:30:34 ◼ ► Core of the book of, like, don't criticize all the time with the first thing that pops into your head.
00:30:40 ◼ ► And then give people honest and sincere appreciation, which he spends a lot of time on, again, being like, the skill you're trying to develop here is a certain kind of noticing.
00:30:52 ◼ ► Pay attention to the things that they can do, pay attention to the things that they can do well, pay attention to the things that are going right, and actually compliment them on that.
00:31:00 ◼ ► Notice where people feel like they get their sense of importance from and pay specific attention to that.
00:31:07 ◼ ► But to me, like, the key book is this one little section where he's trying to, like, head off cynicism.
00:31:23 ◼ ► He's talking about, like, Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli again, like these old-timey examples.
00:31:28 ◼ ► But the two things that are highlighted, which are, like, one section of the book can compress down to, is he says, like, the difference between appreciation and flattery is simple.
00:32:07 ◼ ► He's talking about, like, a new way of life, which is genuinely trying to appreciate people more.
00:32:22 ◼ ► This is completely aligned with everything that we've ever talked about with gratitude,
00:32:26 ◼ ► which is just very well demonstrated to, like, improve your well-being, improve the well-being of people around you.
00:32:41 ◼ ► It's about genuinely liking something about the other person and commenting on it or praising them about it.
00:32:49 ◼ ► And I could also say, like, comma, but the advice compresses down to be genuinely better at liking people.
00:32:55 ◼ ► It's like, that's not incorrect advice, but it's sort of starting from the end in many ways of, like, yeah, people who do genuinely like people make lots of friends and influence them.
00:33:08 ◼ ► And it's like, there's definitely a slider where, for lots of people, this is just, like, a totally natural thing.
00:33:26 ◼ ► And, like, a statement that is simultaneously extremely helpful and also unhelpful at the exact same time because it's just saying what the conclusion is.
00:33:35 ◼ ► Like, I like this framing and I know that this framing had a real impact on me to, like, change something about interactions with people.
00:33:43 ◼ ► I think that section two, which is six ways to make people like you, help with section one.
00:33:50 ◼ ► Because, like, one of the things you're saying is, like, to best handle people and to best win friends and influence people, you have to be able to take a genuine interest in people.
00:34:06 ◼ ► It's too easy to criticize, condemn, or complain about someone if you don't actually like them.
00:34:19 ◼ ► And I think section two, while that is framed as ways to make people like you, I think that it inherently will also do the opposite.
00:34:33 ◼ ► So, like, some of the things in this section are about you becoming genuinely interested in other people, being a good listener, that kind of stuff.
00:34:44 ◼ ► And I think that what that does, if you really lean into it, is lowers your kind of tolerance threshold for people.
00:34:54 ◼ ► Like, if you decide that you genuinely want to listen to people, understand them, and become interested in them,
00:35:05 ◼ ► I think you're more willing to let go of their foibles, meaning that you are then less likely to criticize, condemn, or complain about them.
00:35:20 ◼ ► Because, like, the thing for section two, chapter one, the actual thing he's trying to say there is, become genuinely interested in other people.
00:35:27 ◼ ► It's like, even has a line which I highlighted, which I feel like, again, the book can be like, these is like one of the few lines of the whole book.
00:35:33 ◼ ► It's like, you can make more friends in two months by becoming interested in other people than you can in two years of trying to get people to be interested in you.
00:35:40 ◼ ► It's like, 100% true, very obvious statement, but also, very few people act like that's true.
00:35:49 ◼ ► Everyone's trying to get other people interested in them, and basically, no one is going around being genuinely interested in other people.
00:35:59 ◼ ► Being genuinely interested in people is one of the most important qualities someone can possess.
00:36:04 ◼ ► I find this to be very interesting, and I think also very complicated, like, to put into practice.
00:36:13 ◼ ► And this is kind of what Carnegie is talking about, which is, like, just inherently, the thing that we all care about most in the world is ourselves.
00:36:21 ◼ ► And that in new interactions with people, you're more likely to want to talk about your successes, to try and impress them.
00:36:35 ◼ ► I don't remember there being anything particular in this book about, like, impressing other people, but it is a total truism that the more you try to impress people, the less impressed they are.
00:36:47 ◼ ► This is why people hate things like name-dropping or, like, talking about your accomplishments.
00:36:52 ◼ ► You're so transparently trying to get people to be impressed with you or interested in you.
00:37:02 ◼ ► But it's still, like, so hard for people not to do because you feel like, I want to tell people what's great.
00:37:11 ◼ ► They're just interested in themselves, which, again, is one of those moments where, like, the book tips over into, like, the slight cynicism.
00:37:28 ◼ ► I think, like, for me, one of the things that this book has been helpful is filling in the other half of the point.
00:37:34 ◼ ► So, like, because of what I do for a living, when I meet new people, I don't really like to talk about what I do because I get a bit embarrassed about it in a way.
00:37:49 ◼ ► But I don't like to, like, in my first meeting with someone really, like, you know, this is all the stuff that I do.
00:37:57 ◼ ► The thing that I have not been very good at, especially in, I don't know, maybe the last 10 years, is the second part, which is instead of me talking about myself, which I don't really want to do, is to actually ask a person about themselves.
00:38:11 ◼ ► And this is something that I've been doing a little bit more recently and, like, really genuinely trying to focus on what someone's telling me and ask them questions about the job that they have, about whatever it is.
00:38:35 ◼ ► If you get me started, right, I will just naturally list off a whole set of accomplishments.
00:38:56 ◼ ► Like, we spoke about on the show before, many times over the years, like, what do you tell people you do for a living?
00:39:03 ◼ ► And we've both kind of, like, tried to find ways to explain what we do that isn't actually what we do.
00:39:11 ◼ ► But then I've not been very good at, like, pressing on someone to tell me things about themselves.
00:39:18 ◼ ► I was like, no, just be an interested, nice person and just ask questions to someone, you know?
00:39:23 ◼ ► In my brain, I have a word for this, which I think of as, like, the flip, which is you're in a conversation with someone.
00:39:43 ◼ ► But the thing that makes the flip successful is if you are, like, actually interested in, like, drilling down into something about the other person, it never gets flipped back.
00:39:55 ◼ ► Like, once you can do a successful flip, you are home free for them asking questions about you the moment you, like, flip and engage with whatever it is it seems like they most want to talk about.
00:40:11 ◼ ► Like, if you could pull it off, like, just never any follow-up questions about your own life the moment you've, like, found how to flip the conversation.
00:40:18 ◼ ► Yeah, I actually did this recently where I was talking with someone and they asked me what I did and I said that I was in podcasting.
00:40:25 ◼ ► And they mentioned a show, like, a podcast that they like that I also like called The Restless History.
00:40:31 ◼ ► And then we had a 45-minute conversation about that podcast and not all about me anymore.
00:40:37 ◼ ► It was just a more interesting conversation for the two of us because it was, like, a shared thing that we both cared about as opposed to me being, like, so I make shows about technology and, you know.
00:40:49 ◼ ► This is where, again, the book exists on this funny, like, cynicism side to me because it still is the same thing of, oh, don't have a bag of tricks.
00:41:07 ◼ ► This does only work if you're actually interested in what the other person is saying because if you're not, like, I like your phrase locked in.
00:41:14 ◼ ► Like, if you're not locked into what the other person is saying, you will not be able to have follow-up questions that, like, keep the thing going.
00:41:34 ◼ ► The reason I'm doing this is because I don't want them to ask any questions about me and I know that this will work.
00:41:40 ◼ ► But it can just kind of feel bad sometimes because it will also just, like, leave the person with the impression of, like, I'm significantly more interested in them than I actually am on lots of circumstances.
00:41:53 ◼ ► I was like, oh, I just don't love it, but it nonetheless is a better conversational experience for both of us.
00:42:05 ◼ ► Yeah, I will read to you from my notes for principle four, which is be a good listener, encourage others to talk about themselves.
00:42:12 ◼ ► I wrote, people like to talk about themselves and will gladly do so without much prompting.
00:42:21 ◼ ► I can feel what I think is the cynicism in this book, that you can basically get people to like you more if you let them talk about themselves.
00:42:46 ◼ ► There's one example which, like, I remember reading this for the first time, and it really struck me in high school, because it has that dual feeling, but it totally works.
00:43:01 ◼ ► So, when I was eight years old and was spending a weekend visiting my Aunt Libby at her home in Stratford, a middle-aged man called one evening, and after a polite skirmish with my aunt, he devoted his attention to me.
00:43:12 ◼ ► At that time, I happened to be excited about boats, and the visitor discussed the subject in a way that seemed particularly interesting.
00:43:22 ◼ ► My aunt informed me that he was a New York lawyer, that he cared nothing whatsoever about boats, that he took not the slightest interest in the subject.
00:43:38 ◼ ► He saw you were interested in boats, and he talked about boats because he knew it would interest and please you.
00:43:46 ◼ ► Again, it's like, it's not wrong, but there's something there where I feel like that is just so laid out as transactional.
00:43:53 ◼ ► Of like, ah, you, young child, liked this lawyer, but he doesn't care at all about your dumb child hobbies.
00:44:13 ◼ ► This is also the beginning of a plot point in every sitcom, of like, guy tells boss he likes boats, and next thing he knows, he's on a boat trip.
00:44:39 ◼ ► Like, when you're interacting with children, like, you know, you're talking to them about, like, whatever it is, but some part of your brain is, like, running this background process of, like, I don't actually care about this at all.
00:44:59 ◼ ► I just, I really hate this example, and it, like, struck me so hard again the second time.
00:45:07 ◼ ► And functionally, again, it's turning down a kind of truth dial to be like, ah, kid, I don't care about boats.
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00:47:51 ◼ ► But the example that I find funny is, so Dale Carnegie talks so often in this book about Andrew Carnegie.
00:48:13 ◼ ► Because you mentioned there are a bunch of people who mentioned this a bunch of times through this book.
00:48:27 ◼ ► Like, I also had this thing, which I'm sure many people do when they read this book, of like, is this the Carnegie of Carnegie Hall?
00:48:36 ◼ ► The name chapter is the thing that makes me think the most about this book, and particularly when I'm listening to podcasts, is, I don't know if this is true.
00:48:46 ◼ ► I think this is just a personality difference between some people, but I'm always aware in interview podcasts, some guests are very, I don't know how to say, like, name-focused.
00:49:09 ◼ ► I think it kind of pops some sort of bubble that I'm just, like, in the room listening to the conversation the moment the guest, like, says the host's name.
00:49:18 ◼ ► But I feel like you could do some, like, linguistical analysis of every interview that's ever been conducted on a podcast.
00:49:25 ◼ ► And if someone says the host's name once, it's, like, 90% chance they're going to say it, like, five more times.
00:49:33 ◼ ► They're going to be one of these people who's, like, every time they're, like, Mike, Mike, Mike, like, Mike, Mike, right?
00:49:39 ◼ ► And it, like, it drives me crazy, and it, like, every time, it always makes me think they read How to Win Friends and Influence People, where he has the chapter.
00:49:49 ◼ ► The way that he summarizes it at the end just makes me want to throw up, but I think it's true.
00:49:54 ◼ ► He's like, principle three, remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
00:50:09 ◼ ► Like, I think that he's not talking on something that isn't true, but it's like, my word, you're laying that one on thick.
00:50:15 ◼ ► I think he lays it on thick here, again, because it is deeply, deeply true in some way.
00:50:23 ◼ ► But I also feel like when I read this chapter, I developed a huge allergy to this behavior in other people.
00:50:34 ◼ ► Every time anyone calls someone else by their name in a situation where it is, like, not required.
00:50:51 ◼ ► But there's something else where it feels like, to me, someone is using the name superfluously.
00:51:08 ◼ ► And that's also, again, like, part of this book makes me sad of, like, oh, this principle I find particularly revolting for some reason.
00:51:19 ◼ ► Which is the reason he lays it on so thick about, like, really pay attention to people's names.
00:51:26 ◼ ► Remember that every time you call someone's name, you have paid them a subtle and very effective compliment.
00:51:50 ◼ ► But I bet that this principle is the one that has been most reworked, reused, and rewritten in a thousand other self-help books.
00:52:00 ◼ ► And I would wonder if they've read it in this book or if they picked it up from, like, a self-help course that somebody ran that they took on YouTube.
00:52:12 ◼ ► But there is just a thing where it's like, I'm absolutely certain that this person is doing it on purpose because they've come across this idea.
00:52:19 ◼ ► In me, it's causing some kind of same reaction like we were just talking about with when someone's bragging about their accomplishments.
00:52:25 ◼ ► It causes some kind of, like, very visceral, odious reaction to, like, oh, this person is manipulating the other person.
00:52:34 ◼ ► How to win friends and influence people is fundamentally, like, influencing people means getting them to do what you want, not necessarily what they want.
00:52:50 ◼ ► And, you know, we've referenced it already in, like, you know, people liking to talk about themselves.
00:52:58 ◼ ► But he does touch on something that I actually really like in this section, which is that learning to listen is vital with your family.
00:53:04 ◼ ► But we seem more inclined to listen attentively to a complete stranger than a loved one.
00:53:08 ◼ ► I think a lot of people can, that resonates with a lot of people, that resonates with me.
00:53:16 ◼ ► And there's something that I've developed over the years where, you know, if I'm talking to my wife, I would say, you know what, I wasn't listening to you.
00:53:31 ◼ ► And I think that it is just an important thing to be laid bare in that way and to think about that, like, there are times when you would pay more attention to someone you have met for the first time than someone that you have devoted your life to.
00:54:01 ◼ ► Like, I think it is always good to try to remember, like, you still need to be polite with your family.
00:54:07 ◼ ► But I have a thought here, which I want to express as something like, a good, cohesive family is one where, unlike the rest of the world, you should be able to have both of the dials of, like, social cohesion and truth-telling turned up in a way that you just can't do with other people.
00:54:29 ◼ ► I feel like that is functionally the definition of, like, what is going on in a good family.
00:54:34 ◼ ► You can both be very honest and very truth-telling with each other while also maintaining social niceties and, like, families that aren't working.
00:54:56 ◼ ► And I almost kind of wish there was more of that because I think almost everyone can have that as, like, the really easy lesson and the really obvious lesson.
00:55:23 ◼ ► I don't know how, but I just think sometimes just thinking about something will help you kind of, like, disrupt your kind of patterns.
00:55:48 ◼ ► I also like, there's a little paragraph in this section where he briefly switches into the, what I think it was like, the Seven Ways to Maximize Misery video.
00:56:04 ◼ ► So he just has this one paragraph that I love where he's like, if you want to know how to make people shun you and laugh at you behind your back and even despise you, here's how.
00:56:30 ◼ ► This does feel like it's so different from the rest of the book that he had someone in mind when he was writing.
00:56:50 ◼ ► But it is quite notable as maybe one of the only negatively framed sections in the entire book.
00:57:21 ◼ ► But smiling at people and smiling when talking to people, being cheerful, it will warm people to you.
00:57:34 ◼ ► And it comes later on in principle six is make the other person feel important and do it sincerely.
00:57:47 ◼ ► And I think that these two things go together really nicely, which is just, if you're having an interaction with somebody, like, especially in, like, a service setting, just be nice to them.
00:58:00 ◼ ► But you're doing something nice in being nice to people who are, I think, throughout their day dealing with people who are not nice to them.
00:58:16 ◼ ► But at the same time, you're giving something to people that they want, which is a break from people being nasty to them all day.
00:58:26 ◼ ► One way I try to make this actionable for myself is to, like you said, especially in just, like, quick interactions, right, with, like, a service person who's helping you with something.
00:58:39 ◼ ► And I always try to remind myself, like, the content of the conversation is completely irrelevant.
00:58:47 ◼ ► It's actually just the demeanor of the conversation that is, like, what the other person is responding to.
00:58:53 ◼ ► And so when someone is making, like, idle chit-chat, all they want is to see that they get positive response.
00:59:13 ◼ ► Again, I think the younger version of me could get a little caught up on, like, oh, this guy is commenting on the weather.
00:59:27 ◼ ► This person is just doing, like, some kind of quick interaction to see if they get some positive reaction from you in the space of the 60 seconds you're going to be interacting with each other.
00:59:59 ◼ ► Or maybe you're just getting started and you want to engage with those early members of your audience.
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01:02:15 ◼ ► Like when you're reading the book, it says, part three, how to win people to your way of thinking.
01:02:34 ◼ ► He's letting you know something else here of like, you are thinking you're going to win arguments, but you will never win arguments.
01:02:45 ◼ ► Like for me, it was one of the, this is one of the best things to take from the book, in my opinion.
01:02:57 ◼ ► And what Carnegie is getting at here, because I think people could hear that and be like, no, that doesn't make it, that's stupid.
01:03:06 ◼ ► But what he is getting at here, I think is important, which is the majority of arguments.
01:03:25 ◼ ► I don't think it happens, especially outside of the people who are the absolute closest to you.
01:03:32 ◼ ► I think it's so often that you would be having a discussion with someone and everybody leaves it just believing more strongly what they did at the beginning than they do at the end.
01:03:44 ◼ ► And Carnegie asks the question, would you prefer to have an academic victory or someone's goodwill?
01:04:03 ◼ ► Like, for example, I want something that is so often in my life and is a good example of this.
01:04:10 ◼ ► I'll talk to people about what I do or, you know, what I'm interested in and, you know, like tech or whatever.
01:04:31 ◼ ► Like, you know, there's so many things that are better on Android and just move on from it.
01:04:41 ◼ ► I would prefer to be able to just skate past that part of the conversation and get into something that is a bit more interesting to me than having, like, a meaningless debate.
01:04:57 ◼ ► This is, again, one of those moments where in real life when this comes up, it's like, oh, I will say something like, oh, yeah, like Android phones are, like, way more customizable than iPhones, right?
01:05:26 ◼ ► But actually, if you're, like, parsing out the sentence is just a statement of fact with, like, no meaning behind it whatsoever.
01:05:51 ◼ ► Which is also why I think it is no coincidence that this is where the book really starts to go downhill because he's doing more and more, like, you're actually engaging with other people.
01:06:02 ◼ ► He's not talking about what I think was, like, the more influential part for me, a kind of, like, manual of basic social politeness.
01:06:14 ◼ ► And that's where this stuff, like, starts to come up more and more of, like, oh, there's a trade-off here.
01:06:28 ◼ ► In a relationship, if one person yells, the other should listen, as if both people yell, there's no communication, just noise.
01:06:35 ◼ ► Like, as a way to consider arguments with loved ones, if you're both just shouting, you're not communicating anymore.
01:06:50 ◼ ► Like, it does feel like one of these things that everyone in the family has to agree to and talk about all the time.
01:07:08 ◼ ► I think, like, this chapter, right, the argument chapter, when looking at it from a professional context, I think this is something that I do.
01:07:23 ◼ ► But I think in my work life and with my professional colleagues, I am pretty conflict avoidant.
01:07:34 ◼ ► You do the thing of, like, the best way to win the argument is to avoid it, a hundred percent.
01:07:39 ◼ ► Because I do think that in many cases, it's easier to get what you want in the longer term by avoiding conflict with people in the short term.
01:07:55 ◼ ► I think that is the downside of this, is that if you don't argue with people or kind of stand up for yourself, you create a habit in others where they can kind of just push you around or, like, tell you what they're going to do.
01:08:12 ◼ ► Like, that is the downside to it, but I still believe in the upside, which is that, like, you do create a scenario with people that you work with where you are seen as someone who is willing to help them.
01:08:42 ◼ ► So you brought up a thing which I said at the start, there's a second problem that I have with this book.
01:08:54 ◼ ► But, like, when I say that the book has this real, like, idealized Americana vision to it, the other assumption is that you are always interacting with people who have good intentions.
01:09:10 ◼ ► So, like, another thing that is, like, underlying an enormous number of these stories, and, like, especially, like, it gets more and more as we're going on, is the only problems are problems of misunderstanding, is very much what this book has at its core.
01:09:34 ◼ ► And it's like, dot, dot, dot, I think that is true, given two participants who are making good faith efforts at trying to understand and resolve each other.
01:09:46 ◼ ► Like, what this book kind of makes me think of a lot is, it's like, you know the, like, tit for tat in game theory?
01:09:54 ◼ ► Okay, so tit for tat is kind of like this very, very basic idea in game theory and social interactions,
01:10:01 ◼ ► which is, like, what is a strategy for cooperating with people versus not cooperating with people?
01:10:06 ◼ ► And you map out, like, a very basic two-by-two matrix of, like, both people cooperate, both people defect.
01:10:15 ◼ ► And tit for tat is the optimal solution under almost all circumstances, which is start with cooperation,
01:10:44 ◼ ► And it just isn't true, which is one of these reasons why I feel like the first two times I read this book,
01:10:52 ◼ ► I was relatively young and it had a positive impact on me because I needed a correction in a certain direction away from, like, this, like, annoying truth-telling thing.
01:11:02 ◼ ► But the older version of me looks at this book and I feel very hard what you're expressing is, like,
01:11:12 ◼ ► a lot of this is also a manual for how to be taken advantage of and how to be manipulated by people who are not doing this at all but can seem like they are.
01:11:29 ◼ ► It's like, this book has absolutely nothing in it about how to deal with someone who's not helping, right?
01:11:41 ◼ ► And the very first example in this book gets right to what I think is that tension, where he talks about this, like, killer from the 1930s, like, two-gun Crowley,
01:11:53 ◼ ► who was going on this, like, I looked it up afterwards, like, multi-month-long, like, breaking and entering murder spree,
01:12:04 ◼ ► He shoots a police officer who's, like, asking for his license, like, he goes through, like, the story of this.
01:12:10 ◼ ► And the thing that Dale Carnegie is trying to drive home is, like, this line here is, like,
01:12:30 ◼ ► And it's very interesting, because, like, this book frequently uses examples from prison,
01:12:36 ◼ ► because he's got some, like, book that he's clearly pulling sources from, like, this biography of, like, this warden in Sing Sing, like, giving examples.
01:12:42 ◼ ► But it's always, like, so divorced from a certain kind of reality, because, like, oh, he tells the story,
01:12:55 ◼ ► It's like, okay, that's great, that's true, but all the examples you're giving me are of people who are, like, in prison,
01:13:02 ◼ ► who are separated from society, but in real life, this is, like, an actual problem that, like, as you live life,
01:13:11 ◼ ► you will eventually, like, run across with people who just, like, never think that they're wrong,
01:13:30 ◼ ► People exist on a spectrum, from, like, murderers in prison to just, like, bad people and con artists.
01:13:38 ◼ ► Is this when he also talks about, there's, like, someone in a gold rush town who is killing people,
01:13:56 ◼ ► It's like, oh, this guy, he's, like, a real murderer, but actually he's just a little bit misunderstood.
01:14:13 ◼ ► There's even, like, on a lesser example, like, again, the dealing with difficult people thing.
01:14:27 ◼ ► Like, when people give their dog some, like, bad name, oh, boy, do I always feel like that portrays something, like, cognitively very wrong with the person.
01:14:38 ◼ ► Like, I'll give a mild version, but it's, like, people will name a bad dog something like Little Stinker.
01:14:48 ◼ ► There are more extreme examples of this, but they give the dog a name that means something negative.
01:14:59 ◼ ► And it's, like, oh, boy, does that make me think we should, like, separate you from society immediately, like, the very fact that you made this decision.
01:15:10 ◼ ► And the point in that is, like, something about labeling people, which is, like, again, is very true.
01:15:20 ◼ ► But as a former teacher, he has this, like, insanely crazy example of, like, a schoolteacher, she knew she was going to get terrible Tim next year.
01:15:39 ◼ ► And she just, like, really laid it on thick of, like, Tim, I'm really going to depend on you to, like, help me out and, like, keep this class going.
01:15:56 ◼ ► And was the problem there that we just tell all these guys, hey, I don't know if you knew this, but you're actually good guys.
01:16:18 ◼ ► This is the, like, my frustration with this is, like, some kind of, like, everything is a misunderstanding.
01:16:27 ◼ ► It's, like, uh, I'm pretty sure it can't, but the book just has no answer to that at all.
01:16:45 ◼ ► And it's just, like, insane to imagine, like, oh, do you know what the only problem was between two of the most powerful men in America fighting for the presidency?
01:16:57 ◼ ► I think there's no version of, like, oh, they just talked it out a bunch more that would have resolved, like, their conflict.
01:17:04 ◼ ► Before we leave this, because for me, like, I'm very close to wrapping up what is the longest section of the book, which is this one, principle-wise.
01:17:40 ◼ ► Because this gets into, like, a thing that I've kind of felt for a number of years now.
01:17:52 ◼ ► And so it's hard, I think, sometimes to actually try and accurately pinpoint what is true if multiple people think different things about truth.
01:18:02 ◼ ► And so I feel like if you can't, therefore, be 100% sure that you're right about something, can you tell someone they're wrong?
01:18:11 ◼ ► And Carnegie talks about, like, by doing that, by saying somebody is wrong, you are striking a blow at their intelligence, their pride, and their self-respect.
01:18:28 ◼ ► You know, like, that kind of, like, trying to, like, bring yourself down a peg rather than trying to be, like, the all-knowing individual.
01:18:36 ◼ ► I think that is good in arguments, but is, I think, complicated and difficult for a lot of people to be able to try and get to that.
01:18:51 ◼ ► Before we do move on, though, I do feel like that we are within detached-from-reality anecdote time.
01:19:02 ◼ ► So every one of these books, they're just filled with stories that seem too perfect, right?
01:19:09 ◼ ► I actually think, better than many of the others, there are just some clangers going back into the past of these episodes.
01:19:18 ◼ ► But basically, this book often has, something occurs, next thing you know, the biggest order ever has been placed.
01:19:33 ◼ ► There is a company that has a customer who is late on paying their bills, and they're sending reminders to that person to pay the bills.
01:19:49 ◼ ► Then the customer gets so mad, he travels to Chicago to tell the company in person he will no longer buy anything from them.
01:19:59 ◼ ► The manager of the company listens, hears this person out, and says, hey, I would be mad too.
01:20:06 ◼ ► And I'm happy to hear this, because now I know that these reminders that we send can upset people.
01:20:28 ◼ ► Then the manager takes the customer for lunch, which was a tradition whenever this person was in town.
01:20:33 ◼ ► The customer is so taken aback by this wonderful treatment that he places his largest ever order and becomes a bigger customer in the long term.
01:21:15 ◼ ► And this one, to me, like, when he said, like, oh, he gives the name of the manager to his son, I just burst out laughing.
01:21:58 ◼ ► You can talk about your day or have it explain something to you or start brainstorming ideas.
01:22:22 ◼ ► And that's the magic of it, how you can have this back and forth, and it's all seamless.
01:22:33 ◼ ► The last section is, be a leader, how to change people without giving offense or rousing resentment.
01:22:46 ◼ ► And also, this is like in my notes, the funny thing of like the least amount of notes taken is in this overall section.
01:22:54 ◼ ► But the principles that I liked here were to talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
01:22:59 ◼ ► And it's like this idea of like, if you need to tell someone that they have screwed up, it is nicer to soften it by being like, I also mess up.
01:23:10 ◼ ► And this is something that I, again, I feel like I can think of times where I have done this kind of thing.
01:23:15 ◼ ► I think it is a way to try and help keep someone motivated, even though something has to be corrected.
01:23:24 ◼ ► And like, I feel like there is a different way that this book could have gone where it's like, never acknowledge somebody's mistakes.
01:23:40 ◼ ► But people, I think, are more willing to hear it if they are not made to feel like they're stupid.
01:23:51 ◼ ► And then also the other principle I liked was ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
01:23:56 ◼ ► And this one, again, is on the manipulation line, which is a lot of in this last segment, which is why I resonate so much with it.
01:24:04 ◼ ► But that you can kind of ask questions of people to help them get involved in something rather than just telling them what they need to do.
01:24:31 ◼ ► Yeah, I actually really like this principle, but I don't like it in the context of being a leader.
01:24:37 ◼ ► Ask questions instead of giving direct orders is in real life on a one-to-one interaction with people.
01:24:43 ◼ ► I think one of the best ways to get people to change their mind about something is like don't try to convince them.
01:24:58 ◼ ► You know, again, a lot of these stories are like you're a manager and it's a problem with your employees.
01:25:02 ◼ ► It's like, well, then the whole framing is like there's not an honest conversation happening there.
01:25:15 ◼ ► So it's like I really like this in an interpersonal context, but I just hate it in a business context.
01:25:20 ◼ ► It feels so manipulative and leads right into the next one of like let the other person save face, which is the similar kind of thing of like, oh, you're firing someone or you're like someone's really bad at their job, but you're putting them somewhere else.
01:25:48 ◼ ► Like, ah, you've you've sent someone off to Siberia in your company, but you've given them like a fancy title.
01:26:16 ◼ ► He's talking about the thing that you were saying of like, oh, if you're going to find fault, like begin with praise.
01:26:22 ◼ ► And he has like an addendum to this, which I think I'm just going to read this whole section because I think it's gold.
01:26:27 ◼ ► So he's talking about like you're trying to criticize someone, but like you start with saying what is good.
01:26:42 ◼ ► It delivers the criticism in the guise of a compliment that cloaks the true meaning of the statement.
01:26:57 ◼ ► This one molehill of a word can make a mountain of difference because when the but appears, the praise, however sincere, shows to the person it was but a mere lead-in to what you really wanted to say.
01:27:31 ◼ ► It's like, oh, I know I have failed this one where it's like I'm trying to like say something positive and then you like follow it up with a but.
01:27:39 ◼ ► And it's like, this has really just triggered a thing in my brain of like, oh, yeah, this is just terrible.
01:27:53 ◼ ► We're like, oh, you know you're in trouble for someone and the person is leading with things that were good.
01:28:08 ◼ ► Just this morning, I was like sending a text message to someone doing this exact same kind of thing of like, oh, there's like a thing that's positive and there's a thing that's negative.
01:28:15 ◼ ► And I caught myself doing like, here's the positive thing, but here's like the negative thing.
01:28:20 ◼ ► And I just like reworded the whole message to like try to remove that and make it like clear.
01:28:29 ◼ ► So while, again, I don't love this whole section, I think that's just like fantastic, fantastic advice.
01:28:35 ◼ ► But let me tell you right now the thing that is like for me, the book ends on the most sour of all examples, which is about giving people titles to make them do things.
01:28:47 ◼ ► And so the final example of the story is about like a guy who's running a grocery store and he has an employee who's like doing a very bad job of posting the prices.
01:28:56 ◼ ► It says like, so Mr. Schmidt called the young man into his office and appointed him supervisor of price tag posting for the entire store that he would be responsible for keeping all the shelves properly tagged.
01:29:09 ◼ ► This new responsibility entitled made the young man's attitude completely changed and he fulfilled his duties satisfactorily from then on.
01:29:19 ◼ ► But this is what they said to Napoleon when he created the Legion of Honor and distributed 15,000 crosses to his soldiers and made 18 of his generals, quote,
01:29:34 ◼ ► Napoleon was criticized for giving toys to war-hardened veterans and Napoleon replied, men are ruled by toys.
01:29:59 ◼ ► This is also the thing like I'm very aware on a meta level of a number of times in this conversation I've tried to flag up like what do you do in normal conversations?
01:30:27 ◼ ► Like I think for most people on an interpersonal basis, assuming that you are working with people who are also trying their best.
01:30:43 ◼ ► Like the world would be a better place if everyone just read like the first three chapters and just like heard these ideas expressed this way once.
01:30:52 ◼ ► I have a lot of frustrations with the book and this like happy Sesame Street land of everyone's trying to get along that it portrays.
01:31:02 ◼ ► Saying that this book is good, I can attest to, because I have already found myself in situations where I've used its principles in times that have been very helpful for me.
01:31:19 ◼ ► And I bet I have been using some of the things that the book talks about in my interactions with people in maternity situations.
01:31:32 ◼ ► So something that I've been trying to do is like smile more when I'm talking to people, you know, like doctors, nurses, midwives, that kind of thing.
01:31:40 ◼ ► I've been trying to make more eye contact when I'm talking to people, a little bit of small talk and stuff like that, which the book talks about.
01:31:47 ◼ ► It was like, you know, these kinds of pleasantries and interactions make people maybe remember you more or just warm to you.
01:31:56 ◼ ► And in that, it actually makes it better for me because that person is more warm to me.
01:32:05 ◼ ► And this can just be in circumstances like for, we were at an appointment a couple of days ago.
01:32:16 ◼ ► So we were in this like health clinic, but most of the clinic was closed off and they had a security guard there because they just had it for like where they would see children.
01:32:43 ◼ ► And I think that it did help me get what I needed, which I think that is exactly what I am attempting to get.
01:32:51 ◼ ► Like, in this part of my life now, like I have to take care of my family in a way that is different to how I would before.
01:33:01 ◼ ► And so trying to put myself in situations where people are, they genuinely want to help me is better for everyone.
01:33:40 ◼ ► I try my best in these scenarios not to bug people because it's like this is just, you know, no one really wants to be bugged in these situations.
01:33:51 ◼ ► And if we have to stay much longer, we have this whole song and dance that we have to restart of like feeding the baby and stuff.
01:34:14 ◼ ► And I was like, and I just, a previous version of me would have just continued that level of outrage at the scenario.
01:34:43 ◼ ► But what I am very confident about is if I would have continued my initial feeling, I would not have left that hospital in 20 minutes.
01:34:51 ◼ ► And so, like, I put myself in a situation where I genuinely believe somebody wanted to help me.
01:34:59 ◼ ► Rather than if I would have given them how I truly felt in that scenario, I don't think I would have gotten that.
01:35:08 ◼ ► Yeah, I've been finding these things to be really helpful in these scenarios of, like, dealing with people that are completely new to me and there is something I need, there is something they need.
01:35:19 ◼ ► And I'm finding that the warmer I am, the more open I am, courteous, I am able to get what I need more easily in a way that people want to help me.
01:35:30 ◼ ► Also, like, just in general, like, I am in a phase of my life right now where I'm meeting new people.
01:35:35 ◼ ► I'm going to be meeting lots of more people over the coming years, which is just related to kind of, like, having a child and all that stuff.
01:35:41 ◼ ► And I've spoken about this in previous year themes, right, of, like, trying to make more relationships in this part of my life.
01:35:48 ◼ ► Like, that was kind of, like, what part of the year weekend was, is in hoping this kind of thing would happen.
01:35:53 ◼ ► And that I would build more relationships, the same as year of people, right, like, it's about building these relationships.
01:36:03 ◼ ► And, like, as I was reading through, I was thinking about how I could use some of them, reflecting on ways that I've been doing some of these things naturally.
01:36:09 ◼ ► Like, just being interested in other people and making that a core of conversation, I think, will help me a lot.
01:36:24 ◼ ► Like, we will never be wholly positive about these things because it's just not possible with the way that they're written.
01:36:30 ◼ ► And I think this book is the same as so many, which is, like, 50% of this book is, like, perfect, you know, and it's the first 50.
01:36:38 ◼ ► And with all of them, it just continues past the point of logic because that's just how these books go, as in, like, where would the logical end point be?
01:36:48 ◼ ► But I recommend reading the whole thing because I think different people would relate to it differently.
01:37:00 ◼ ► And I think really easy to relate back to because you can go back and just read that one principle that you care about kind of, like, frequently.
01:37:30 ◼ ► Next episode, we're going to watch The Social Network, the 2010 American biographical drama film, as it's described on Wikipedia, by David Fincher and written by Aaron Sorkin, who wrote The West Wing, which is about the beginning of Facebook.
01:38:11 ◼ ► I wonder how it holds up in the social media landscape and the social media company landscape that we have today.
01:38:29 ◼ ► I think the portrayal of Zuckerberg has probably done a 720 degree spin since then to now.