00:00:24 ◼ ► Some of them I thought was called a chalkboard, but it is I have been in, I have been informed
00:01:19 ◼ ► out the touch ID, the battery, the little circuit board, and you put it in a 3D printed
00:01:35 ◼ ► The reason I knew you would love it is because I know your affinity for the Apple X and the
00:02:27 ◼ ► And yeah, it was in the Ranchero Slack channel where you said, "Oh, I would love one of these
00:03:03 ◼ ► And I realized that from talking to people who do it, that it's not particularly difficult,
00:03:23 ◼ ► And I actually went, when I started university, I thought I wanted to do electrical engineering.
00:03:32 ◼ ► I mean, it's important stuff, but for my mind, it was not something that I wanted to do.
00:03:38 ◼ ► Then I had done some classes with computer science and it was like that's where I wanted
00:03:52 ◼ ► computer hardware and computer science, which is effect, you know, do I want to do hardware
00:04:03 ◼ ► know, it's not uncommon for incoming freshmen to be torn between those two specific majors.
00:04:08 ◼ ► And it's better to start in engineering and transfer to computer science than vice versa
00:04:23 ◼ ► And if you transfer in your second year, if you start computer science and switch to engineering,
00:04:30 ◼ ► you've got to pick up all these freshmen things and you won't be in any of the, you'll be
00:04:45 ◼ ► So anyway, I did the same thing, had the same experience freshman year where I learned just
00:04:58 ◼ ► My problem now actually is that I don't have the motor skills and eyesight of a 16 year
00:05:08 ◼ ► You know, we could probably do the whole show, you know, about the hardware versus software.
00:05:12 ◼ ► And I feel like for everybody, most lay people, all of this stuff, all of these devices are
00:05:33 ◼ ► our racket has our layers where we Oh, I actually know something about x and then it doesn't
00:06:03 ◼ ► I think I maxed out the SSD a couple years ago, at my desk connected to a studio display,
00:06:11 ◼ ► I don't like having I don't really I it's been a very long time since I've had multiple
00:06:23 ◼ ► But it's never the thing that's always bothered me about it when I've tried it is that I don't
00:06:42 ◼ ► Well, but I understand though, why some people do it like I do remember like years ago, like
00:06:52 ◼ ► that was just sort of the tech support email in a shared Eudora imap folder was super helpful
00:07:05 ◼ ► division of Oh, I can pivot my chair a little bit to do it put a different hat on temporarily
00:07:13 ◼ ► But what I've been doing with that, so I keep the lid closed, which means the display isn't
00:07:31 ◼ ► about other hobbies in addition to mechanical keyboards where money disappears quickly,
00:07:39 ◼ ► But what I've tended to do for years is where my Apple Watch on workdays, if it's a Monday
00:08:00 ◼ ► out there who doesn't have this setup doesn't have an Apple Watch or never set it up on
00:08:10 ◼ ► And if your Mac is signed into iCloud and your Apple Watch is signed into the same iCloud
00:08:52 ◼ ► And so oftentimes I'll go, it doesn't work anymore because you have to type your password
00:09:05 ◼ ► Well, I don't like it because I can I can wake up in the morning and think it's a workday.
00:09:59 ◼ ► I think that the the watch being able to unlock your phone was something Apple added during
00:10:12 ◼ ► And so before they got face ID working with masks, which they did eventually get and it's
00:10:21 ◼ ► They did get Oh, you could unlock your watch first and then your phone will will unlock
00:10:50 ◼ ► a lot of the volume is for the battery which they made thin and wide, which is great for
00:11:19 ◼ ► Because it's not usually we could play the game of would Apple do x and either the answer
00:11:31 ◼ ► I think the maybes are rare Apple I feel like you and I could sit here and do it but that's
00:11:36 ◼ ► one that I would say is probably not but it's hard for me to explain why it's I feel like
00:11:51 ◼ ► It's it's not you don't go to the Apple Store to in fact, does the Apple Store even sell
00:12:22 ◼ ► And this is where we as people who voluntarily put our digital lives in the Apple ecosystem,
00:12:32 ◼ ► where we have to pay the price, which is that you you benefit from so much integration across
00:12:45 ◼ ► hey state of the company how they do and I think the cross integration across their platforms
00:12:58 ◼ ► And then when it works, you just sort of take it for granted, like for example, the continuity
00:13:10 ◼ ► It's always ever since it debuted in like 2017 or so it's like a six or seven year old feature.
00:13:30 ◼ ► I just expect when I've copied something anywhere that I can paste it on another one and it's
00:13:37 ◼ ► It's one of the reasons for that the chalk dingus is so important to me is because I've
00:13:46 ◼ ► And that little piece of hardware is really tightly integrated with the keychain and pass
00:14:08 ◼ ► And my login password that I actually have to type on the keyboard comes off my fingers
00:14:21 ◼ ► But it's also complex enough that I sometimes type it wrong and it just really feels at
00:14:38 ◼ ► iCloud password at some point during that whole sequence, right? There's just, there's no way
00:14:45 ◼ ► around it. They're stored on the device. So like I was saying, we're the downside of being in the
00:14:51 ◼ ► apple ecosystem is that we're at the mercy of the products apple makes. And if apple decides
00:14:55 ◼ ► they're not gonna make a standalone Touch ID button, you know, the cute little square that
00:15:01 ◼ ► you could put anywhere, then we don't get one or we get hobbyist products like the chalk dingus,
00:15:18 ◼ ► **Robert Wiblin** What I could see apple doing would be partnering with maybe Logitech and letting
00:15:34 ◼ ► **Robert Wiblin** Well, like those little stream decks, you know, you've seen them. They're like
00:15:39 ◼ ► the little mini keyboards where you can set the pixels on top. I'm sure because you guys do icons
00:15:44 ◼ ► that there's been a lot of custom icon work that icon factory has done for people met wanting cute
00:15:50 ◼ ► little icons on their stream decks. I could say it would be really, I would buy one of those in
00:15:55 ◼ ► a heartbeat if it had a Touch ID sensor. Right. And I didn't realize this. I'd never really thought
00:16:02 ◼ ► it through. I guess if I would have even before I tried it, but I was surprised when I set it up,
00:16:08 ◼ ► you set it up just like a magic keyboard. You just connect the lightning cable from your Mac.
00:16:14 ◼ ► **Robert Wiblin** Yeah. It thinks it's a full magic keyboard. You connect it with the lightning
00:16:21 ◼ ► cable and it says, okay, now this keyboard is paired with this Mac. And once it's charged up,
00:16:27 ◼ ► you can disconnect the cable. And now you have a little standalone Bluetooth magic keyboard that
00:16:32 ◼ ► only has one key, the Touch ID sensor. And it's nice because it'll wake the Mac as the Mac is
00:16:39 ◼ ► sleeping. I just put my finger on it. The thing I was surprised about was that it already had my
00:16:45 ◼ ► fingerprints from the Touch ID sensor built into the MacBook Pro. My intuition when I was setting
00:16:52 ◼ ► up your kind gift was, oh, I'll have to do my two or three fingers again on this sensor. And that's
00:16:59 ◼ ► not true that your fingerprint scans are on the secure enclave on the device, not in the sensor.
00:17:08 ◼ ► And so I already had my right index and right thumb registered from the built-in Touch ID sensor
00:17:16 ◼ ► on the MacBook Pro keyboard and didn't need to set them up again on the new one. It just worked.
00:17:21 ◼ ► But the other thing is I can't set up, you can only set up three fingers. So if you want to,
00:17:27 ◼ ► let's say, have your left hand or something. Yeah. Like right hand for the built-in one,
00:17:34 ◼ ► because it's on the upper right of the keyboard, but maybe you're left-handed and you would like
00:17:39 ◼ ► to put your little chalk dingus on the left side. You've got to figure out how to allot your three
00:17:46 ◼ ► fingers. I don't know. I wonder why Apple… That actually, the fact that there's no real secure
00:18:05 ◼ ► They're not giving anybody else the responsibility for the secure enclave. They're not even giving
00:18:11 ◼ ► them a secure enclave, which I think, A, they wouldn't do for competitive reasons, and B,
00:18:18 ◼ ► they wouldn't do for marketing reasons that there's that part of the brand promise from Apple
00:18:24 ◼ ► is that Apple alone is single-handedly responsible for your secure enclave. I feel like they could
00:18:53 ◼ ► Well, anyway, I just want to thank you again. I'm thinking about you every single day. Every day,
00:19:03 ◼ ► I think, "Oh, thanks to my pal." Thanks to my pal, Craig. Hey, let me take a break right now
00:19:16 ◼ ► Might as well thank Trade Coffee first because I'm just finishing up my last cup of coffee
00:19:21 ◼ ► of the day right now. Trade Coffee is… I love this company. They are changing the way you experience
00:19:27 ◼ ► coffee at home. They continuously curate a wide variety of coffees from the best small batch
00:19:33 ◼ ► specialty roasters in the US, and then they make personalized recommendations based on what you
00:19:39 ◼ ► like or may like to try. So, in other words, Trade Coffee themselves isn't running some kind of huge
00:19:45 ◼ ► factory where they're roasting a gazillion beans in a couple of things and putting them in Trade
00:19:52 ◼ ► Coffee brand bags and mailing them to your house. What Trade does is they've partnered with dozens
00:20:00 ◼ ► of more or less mom and pop roasters around the country, small labels from all over the place,
00:20:09 ◼ ► who you would never, ever encounter. Maybe once in a while, one of them will be local to you,
00:20:18 ◼ ► I'm getting beans from Arizona. I'm getting beans from places in Texas, California, and just every
00:20:24 ◼ ► week or every two weeks, however often you want it delivered, it's just a pleasant surprise from
00:20:29 ◼ ► a new roaster, a new batch, a new variety. And it just, for me, someone who falls into a rut,
00:20:35 ◼ ► it's perfect because I've said it, forget it. I just… The beans arrive. I do no selection work,
00:20:43 ◼ ► and I get a variety of beans on a regular basis. It is absolutely fantastic. Every single bag is
00:20:50 ◼ ► roasted to order and shipped fresh to you within a day or two of roasting by one of their 50+
00:20:56 ◼ ► roasters. They believe anyone can make great coffee at home. All you need is the access to
00:21:01 ◼ ► the best beans, and that's what they do. 50+ small batch specialty coffee partners offering over
00:21:09 ◼ ► 450 rotating roasts, which you don't have to pick through. You can just answer a few questions off
00:21:14 ◼ ► the start. They'll mail you some beans based on your answers to a few simple questions,
00:21:19 ◼ ► and then after you start tasting it, just give it a thumbs up, thumbs down in the email they'll send
00:21:24 ◼ ► to say, "Hey, how'd you like that coffee?" Give it a thumbs up. You'll get more like that. Give it
00:21:28 ◼ ► a thumbs down. They'll shift it up. For me, they dialed into the type of coffee I like very, very
00:21:34 ◼ ► quickly. I love them. So, give Trade a try for a month and see how you can make better coffee at
00:21:40 ◼ ► home right now. They're offering 30% off your first month of coffee when you visit DrinkTrade.com/TheTalkShow.
00:21:48 ◼ ► That's DrinkTrade.com/TheTalkShow for 30% off a month of coffee. DrinkTrade.com/TheTalkShow.
00:22:00 ◼ ► The problem with sponsors I love is I can't shut up about them. It's a good problem to have.
00:22:06 ◼ ► I've got another device here to sort of do a quick casual review. I have what I'm actually not even
00:22:15 ◼ ► sure if it's a prototype, but last week, there was a company that sort of decloaked called Daylight
00:22:22 ◼ ► Computer Company, and they have a product called the Daylight DC-1. It is a—you saw this news,
00:22:28 ◼ ► right? It's an iPad-shaped tablet, 10.9 inches, that has not an E Ink display. I made that mistake
00:22:38 ◼ ► when I first wrote about it. They're calling it an E Paper display, which is different than E Ink.
00:22:43 ◼ ► It's 60 frames per second, but black and white or grayscale, perhaps, if you will, with an amber
00:22:52 ◼ ► backlighting, which they are advertising as the lack of blue light for backlighting being
00:23:03 ◼ ► So, Om Malik, friend of the show, had a nice post about it, and clearly, it knows the founder of the
00:23:09 ◼ ► company. So, I reached out through Om, and next thing you know, the founder of the company sent
00:23:14 ◼ ► me one overnight, very, very kind of him for me to review. And so, I've been using it on and off
00:23:49 ◼ ► But I have to say, for my eyes, looks retina, I'm guessing. My son's actually away at the shore
00:23:57 ◼ ► with friends. I kind of wish he were here to look at it, because he's sort of my 20-year-old son.
00:24:07 ◼ ► Pete Lien I would say, though, in terms of, oh, is that putting you off only 191 ppi? I would say,
00:24:14 ◼ ► don't let that hold you off, you being anybody out there who's thinking about placing a pre-order,
00:24:20 ◼ ► for one. I know Kindles advertise themselves at 300 ppi. Looking at this next to my Kindle Oasis,
00:24:38 ◼ ► Pete Lien It is amazing compared to E-ink, right? Because E-ink famously, the downside is that it is
00:24:46 ◼ ► all these low, these many years later, contrast is awesome. And the power on E-ink is fascinating,
00:24:54 ◼ ► because once the screen is powered, this is where the name ink comes from, it actually doesn't take
00:25:00 ◼ ► any more power to keep those pixels black and the ones that are white, white. Hence the fact that
00:25:11 ◼ ► they show something on the screen, like the cover of the book you're reading. And that doesn't
00:25:16 ◼ ► actually consume any power once, it's almost like printing, right? It's once you've printed the page,
00:25:32 ◼ ► David Tenenbaum This, it's E, I feel like the way the daylight is describing it is fair. It is
00:25:38 ◼ ► E-paper, E, it is E-ink like, it definitely, when you scroll, like on a webpage, it scrolls like a
00:25:49 ◼ ► Pete Lien Is the screen itself reflective? Or I mean, does it have like a shiny surface or more?
00:26:06 ◼ ► matte finish, maybe even a little bit more matte. I've left the backlight at its default setting.
00:26:14 ◼ ► And I probably in the next coming, as I test it more, should probably try turning it off completely
00:26:20 ◼ ► in some lighting, because I find that it's on all the time, even like in the middle of the day in a,
00:26:39 ◼ ► David Tenenbaum I don't know. And it does have very good battery life from what I've seen so
00:26:43 ◼ ► far. I'm not even sure how to turn the backlight off. They say to go up there to the control center,
00:26:48 ◼ ► but well, I'll figure it out. I probably shouldn't have done that live. But it is, they've made some
00:26:55 ◼ ► curious decisions. I sent, I'll put it in the show notes that the getting started guy, here's a weird
00:27:01 ◼ ► here's a weird scenario. The daylight computer doesn't have a camera, no front facing camera,
00:27:16 ◼ ► David Tenenbaum I kind of, I kind of like the idea of either put a really good camera in or don't
00:27:22 ◼ ► even bother with a camera because what do you what are you going to do with it? Are you really going
00:27:25 ◼ ► to do work calls on a black and white screen like zoom? Are you going to take photographs out of the
00:27:31 ◼ ► back camera of this thing? Ah, best to leave it off. But in the box, the getting started guide
00:27:39 ◼ ► is a QR code. It's not and they don't even tell you the URL. It's like a site they built with
00:27:44 ◼ ► Notion and I'll bet before they ship they might this might be sort of a beta while that these are
00:27:49 ◼ ► prototypes. So they have a like a getting started guide that they made in Notion. But to get to it,
00:27:55 ◼ ► you have to use a QR code, but the device itself doesn't have a camera. So I used my phone and I
00:28:02 ◼ ► opened it up on Safari on my phone. And I've got the getting started guide. Oh, here's what that
00:28:07 ◼ ► button does. Okay. And now it's well, I, I should read this on the daylight itself. How do I get the
00:28:13 ◼ ► URL there? Yeah, because I don't have content. This brings me back to my hey, when you're in the Apple
00:28:19 ◼ ► ecosystem, I keep thinking to myself, oh, I'll just copy the URL and I'll go over here and just
00:28:25 ◼ ► hit paste in Chrome and it'll be no, that won't work. And so I can say so what I've done is I've
00:28:31 ◼ ► signed into my Google account. And I use what's it called Google keep, which is sort of like their
00:28:37 ◼ ► notes app. And then for things I want to share between the two, I just paste it into a Google keep
00:28:43 ◼ ► note on one of my Apple no airdrop. There's no no airdrop synchronized clipboard. There's
00:28:50 ◼ ► it's actually a hard problem. It's really, really a constant stream of being detached from my arsenal
00:29:01 ◼ ► of daily tools and just features that I take advantage of it. It definitely distraction free,
00:29:07 ◼ ► though, right? I mean, it's in some way that that that's not necessarily a bad thing, right? You
00:29:12 ◼ ► don't have your clipboard manager. So you know, you're not going to be tempted by things on the
00:29:17 ◼ ► clipboard. You could look at it that way. It is for certain things. It's going to be a lot of
00:29:23 ◼ ► friction. Yeah, I will say before we go, I want to and I don't want to get an argument about it. I've
00:29:29 ◼ ► I'll put this in the show notes, but I've written about it. A daring fireball Apple supports two
00:29:35 ◼ ► features related to color temperature. True Tone, which is I believe and has for years now been
00:29:43 ◼ ► on by default on I think Mac, iPad, everything. I've had pro point nine inch. And the true tone is
00:29:55 ◼ ► just sort of trying to you it uses light point. And so if you were in daylight, I guess that's
00:30:07 ◼ ► fairly blue light. And if it's nighttime, and you're in a room lit by incandescent belt bulbs,
00:30:14 ◼ ► that's a very warm orange light. True Tone attempts to just magically keep your screen looking
00:30:22 ◼ ► normal. Right? I personally find true tone to be an absolutely invisible feature. And I mean that
00:30:29 ◼ ► in the best way. I never noticed it. I never think Oh, true tone kicked in at nighttime because now
00:30:35 ◼ ► it's it's my my office lights are on because the sun went down and the color temperature shifted
00:30:41 ◼ ► in my office and now my screen looks different because of true tone. I don't even notice it.
00:30:45 ◼ ► I really don't. I think it's a great feature. The other feature they Apple supports is called
00:30:51 ◼ ► night shift and night shift is what was there was a third party or still is maybe a third party
00:30:57 ◼ ► utility. Yeah, yeah, yeah. flux. I think it was Yeah, FL UX, something like that. So that whole
00:31:03 ◼ ► period UX, I think, and night shift is sounds like it's if you don't, you really have to see the
00:31:11 ◼ ► difference for the end if you're if you're listening to me now and you know the difference,
00:31:16 ◼ ► you're like nodding your head. You're like, Yeah, Groover, we know night shift is really,
00:31:19 ◼ ► really strong. And true tone is really, really subtle. But if you haven't messed around with it,
00:31:25 ◼ ► mess around with it at night, and you'll be like, Oh, yeah, night shift is based on this idea that
00:31:30 ◼ ► blue light is bad for your sleep bad for your health at night that it's because blue light is
00:31:38 ◼ ► daylight. The the thinking the hypothesis is your body only expects to see blue light during daylight
00:31:45 ◼ ► hours. And so oh, it's nine o'clock at night, and you're getting all this blue light from
00:31:50 ◼ ► your computer screen. And it somehow tricks your body into thinking, oh, it's not time to start
00:31:57 ◼ ► winding down for sleep. And now you're up too late because your body got thrown off. There's
00:32:04 ◼ ► there's not a lot of evidence that that works. And there's a fairly convincing amount of evidence that
00:32:10 ◼ ► it doesn't work that there aren't really health benefits to it. It's a decent hypothesis. But it
00:32:15 ◼ ► turns out that when actual rigorous scientific studies have attempted to prove it, they don't
00:32:19 ◼ ► get the results. But if I know I have many friends, well, men are about many, but several friends who
00:32:27 ◼ ► definitely use night shift because I don't use it. I think it looks gross. I think it makes everything
00:32:31 ◼ ► look nicotine for a while. I found myself having to turn it off. You know, you want to check colors
00:32:36 ◼ ► or something on a layout, you need to see the color. I think that the bigger problem for me is
00:32:42 ◼ ► emitted light versus reflected light. I think that looking less at screens or less bright screens
00:32:50 ◼ ► is a good thing. The fact that that's I think that daylight computer, the fact that it has a
00:32:56 ◼ ► reflective display like the Kindle readers, they're heading down a totally different path than Apple
00:33:03 ◼ ► is with its displays. Yeah, which are ever, ever brighter. It was like, well, they don't,
00:33:09 ◼ ► they literally doubled down with it with the iPad Pro. I know. Two displays in the thing.
00:33:14 ◼ ► I even put it in my review of my review two weeks ago, the new iPad Pro even mentioned the first
00:33:21 ◼ ► time I tried to use it in bed, I had to manually turn down the brightness because it was like a sun
00:33:26 ◼ ► lamp just at the default setting. Some developers gonna make iSunbed or something like that, right?
00:33:33 ◼ ► I can. Before we move on, I just want to assert I do not believe there's any scientific evidence
00:33:40 ◼ ► that night shift helps people sleep. But I also know what it's like to have a subjective preference
00:33:51 ◼ ► people to. And if you find you dear listener of the show, find that night shift is easier on your
00:33:57 ◼ ► eyes, then two thumbs up for me. I'm glad that's in there. My only hesitation is just the little
00:34:04 ◼ ► bit of language Apple puts in the still has in the description that it may help you sleep better.
00:34:10 ◼ ► I think that they should just tweak that to say you may find it more comfortable on your eyes
00:34:14 ◼ ► late at night because I think that that sleep stuff is a little bit of pseudoscience. And I
00:34:21 ◼ ► like when I wrote about it a couple years ago, I just wonder how many people have it turned on
00:34:28 ◼ ► because they think the pseudoscience is true, even though they personally find it unpleasant to look
00:34:34 ◼ ► at. This does make my screen look nicotine stained, but I want to sleep better. So I'll
00:34:39 ◼ ► leave it on. I kind of feel like maybe if you don't like the way it looks and you don't find
00:34:44 ◼ ► it more comfortable, you should turn it off. Do you know about the blank app that I wrote for
00:34:48 ◼ ► Apple TV? You it's ringing a bell, but you'll have to basically just basically it's an app that makes
00:34:55 ◼ ► the screen black. Right? Again, it's less light in the evening. Like you're listening to music
00:35:02 ◼ ► or podcasts or something, you don't need to see the big old huge, bright screen. It's just going
00:35:07 ◼ ► to be basically showing a static image. So I wrote this app that just basically shows a black screen
00:35:13 ◼ ► and then you hit the home button and it comes back to life and you're good to go. But yeah, it's just
00:35:20 ◼ ► the notion that I think the thing that everybody is acutely aware of is that your eyes get tired
00:35:29 ◼ ► looking at these screens all day. I mean, we look at a screen all day and then we're looking at
00:35:33 ◼ ► screens before we watch TV and then we're looking at the screen while we're watching shows over.
00:35:39 ◼ ► You're going to go look at another screen. It's like, how do we reduce the amount of light that's
00:35:47 ◼ ► bombarding our eyes? Especially late in the day. Yeah, and I've had some stretches where I've had
00:35:53 ◼ ► issues with my eyes that as I've had surgery and stuff and was recovering from them, particularly
00:36:01 ◼ ► felt like, oh, and it would be like, I can read this screen. Great. My big concern is what if I
00:36:06 ◼ ► can't even read the screen? Ah, I can read the screen. This is great. Or like when I had cataract
00:36:12 ◼ ► surgery, when the cataract really bad before I had had them removed, I really had trouble reading the
00:36:20 ◼ ► screens at some point. I in dark mode saved my bacon from a few months before I had the procedure,
00:36:26 ◼ ► because I don't like dark mode. I don't prefer it. But dark background with light text worked
00:36:33 ◼ ► with my cataract in a way that white background with dark text blur it to blow blew everything out.
00:36:40 ◼ ► And after I had the cataract surgery, then it was like, oh, this is great. I can see so much better.
00:36:45 ◼ ► This is you know, it's it's, it's really amazing. It's for everybody. It's it's it. And the thing
00:36:51 ◼ ► that's interesting is that you don't realize how important some of these things are until you need
00:36:56 ◼ ► them. Right? It's so larger text. I'm 64 now, right? Larger text. That's a good thing. Well,
00:37:02 ◼ ► contrast contrast is the big one with a cataract because a cataract it's it diffuses light and
00:37:09 ◼ ► that the telltale sign that you might be at the beginning stages of a cataract is when you're out
00:37:14 ◼ ► at night, like driving at night, do the street lights like the red, yellow, green, do they seem
00:37:20 ◼ ► to have a big bloom around them? That's that's a sign of a cataract early sign. And then that
00:37:27 ◼ ► blooming gets worse and worse as the cataract gets worse. But like the contrast issues. So for
00:37:32 ◼ ► example, I'm sure you've seen this, everybody has seen it. But like a pill bottle, like just Tylenol.
00:37:38 ◼ ► And if they print, instead of printing, black, black ink, they just use the injection molding
00:37:47 ◼ ► of the plastic to tell you what to do. Or my beard clippers are like that they're they're black
00:37:53 ◼ ► plastic, and they have a number on them. But the number is just injection molded on the black
00:37:58 ◼ ► plastic. And when I had the cataract, I couldn't read it. I could not read the numbers. Because it's
00:38:11 ◼ ► It's it's the irony of it is that the people who use these medications the most are older.
00:38:24 ◼ ► you tear that thing off and the text gets smaller. That again, the phone, the iPhone's magnifying
00:38:31 ◼ ► thing, that little UI that you bring up, you can take zoom in and take a snapshot. And that
00:38:37 ◼ ► I used to I used to oh, yeah, that's what I use in restaurants, right? They've got a low contrast.
00:38:45 ◼ ► It looks some designer designed the menu and in perfect lighting conditions, and you're in this
00:38:50 ◼ ► dark restaurant. You can't read what is in the dish. Right? Right. Pull off the phone. Everybody's
00:38:57 ◼ ► done it. Yep. Anyway, back to the daylight. I don't know I had I'm with you. I'm not a big
00:39:06 ◼ ► believer in the blue light amber light. I think amber is cool. You know, it brings back retro
00:39:11 ◼ ► vibes of I remember those old amber terminals. So those are cool. Yeah, I all things considered if
00:39:18 ◼ ► you had to pick if you came into a lab and there were some open seats in front of the green terminal
00:39:24 ◼ ► and in front of an amber terminal and otherwise it was the same. I think I'd go amber. Oh, it just
00:39:30 ◼ ► just seemed a little cooler. So I like it. I like the amber and it's kind of interesting being gray
00:39:35 ◼ ► scale. It is kind of constantly surprising when it does things that he ink can't do because I've
00:39:40 ◼ ► I've used the Kindle enough times over the years. I'm not a huge ebook reader or Kindle user, but
00:39:46 ◼ ► I've owned one for God, probably like 2010 or something a couple models. But when you see a
00:39:52 ◼ ► video start to play and it's playing at 30 frames per second and it's just grayscale it's whoa,
00:39:57 ◼ ► that's weird. I don't expect video to play on it on a device like this. And I don't love Kindles,
00:40:03 ◼ ► but I feel like their single minded dedication towards reading of ebooks serves them well,
00:40:10 ◼ ► even though you think wouldn't it be better if your Kindle was just as good at reading ebooks
00:40:14 ◼ ► as it already is. But you can also get your email on it. And you could also have a web browser,
00:40:20 ◼ ► and they have they have like an experimental web browser in its scroll so poorly and renders so
00:40:25 ◼ ► poorly. It's like just good enough to look up a fact and so bad that you would never use it.
00:40:31 ◼ ► But I actually think that's a feature not a bug, because it keeps you using the Kindle for the one
00:40:38 ◼ ► thing you want to be using it for which is reading a book. Whereas with this the daylight DC one,
00:40:44 ◼ ► because it has a full version of Chrome running and it scrolls fine. It has me surfing the web
00:40:52 ◼ ► and doing all the things I do on an iPad except I'm not in the iPad ecosystem. And so I'm frustrated
00:40:57 ◼ ► and completely beside the point of this innovative unique display. I just find myself wishing it
00:41:07 ◼ ► were an iPad, not an Android because it's not tied to any of the apps I want to use. It's not
00:41:27 ◼ ► just with a beam of sunlight coming through the window to really simulate a lighting condition.
00:41:33 ◼ ► It's not great for even iPads. And it works. If I were going to read outside, I would definitely
00:41:41 ◼ ► consider this. But it's almost like I wish it did even less. It's almost like I wish that it just had
00:41:47 ◼ ► was more focused on ebooks somehow. And it is it's it's for me, because I'm spoiled by an iPad,
00:41:56 ◼ ► it feels thick and heavy. It feels I again, maybe I'm wrong. And if I went back and got an iPad three,
00:42:03 ◼ ► I'd be shocked at how much heavier an iPad three is, I guess I could look up the text specs.
00:42:07 ◼ ► But remember, the iPad three came out. And I think that was the first retina iPad. And it was thicker
00:42:13 ◼ ► and heavier than the iPad two or the original. And then they came out with the iPad for six months
00:42:19 ◼ ► later and got it thinner. It was sort of that the iPad three was sort of a stopgap to get the first
00:42:24 ◼ ► retina one out. In my memory, at least this feels like an iPad three, it feels like a tablet that I
00:42:31 ◼ ► wish were thinner and lighter. And then when I actually picked up my Kindle Oasis, which they've
00:42:36 ◼ ► discontinued, I don't know why I don't know if they're going to replace it. But it's, I think
00:42:41 ◼ ► the nicest Kindle they ever made, but it's it's not a big textbook Kindle. It's the you know,
00:42:46 ◼ ► sort of paperback Kindle. It is so lightweight, it feels like you could blow it around the
00:42:51 ◼ ► countertop, right? It feels like if I blew hard enough on it, it would move like a sheet of paper.
00:42:56 ◼ ► It's so lightweight. And this is not that what else comes with a stylus and the stylus works.
00:43:06 ◼ ► And the latency isn't bad. Apple pencil again. I realized while I'm like, and it's like just
00:43:14 ◼ ► enough latency where it's like this uncanny valley and I'm not an illustrator. So I'm not making a
00:43:20 ◼ ► drawing. But what's the first thing I do? I sign my name. I don't know, I make my signature. And
00:43:24 ◼ ► it's I can just tell it's lagging a little and I still experience it. I don't have to sign for
00:43:30 ◼ ► credit card purchases that often when I'm out and about in a retail but every once in a while you're
00:43:34 ◼ ► at some store with an old POS a piece of shit point of sale. A POS POS that still requires
00:43:43 ◼ ► your little dignity. The pharmacy makes me sign I guess that might be Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that
00:43:49 ◼ ► little medical HIPAA kind of Yeah, yeah. So there's some kind of HIPAA thing like and maybe it's only
00:43:56 ◼ ► when I pick up from Amy, you know, it's like but if you pick up a prescription for your spouse,
00:44:00 ◼ ► you have to sign and you can see you know, the latency on those things is laughable, right? This
00:44:07 ◼ ► isn't that bad. This is pretty good. But it is not Apple pencil. Right. And yeah, I was just saying
00:44:13 ◼ ► meanwhile, Apple's adding shadows to the pencil that make it look like a pin. There's a bit of
00:44:19 ◼ ► so there. So what's my conclusion? I don't know. This device is good enough to be intriguing. And
00:44:26 ◼ ► it's it's intriguing in all the ways I kind of thought it was based on their promo video. I think
00:44:39 ◼ ► Build quality could be better. But again, is it a prototype? I'm not sure. It kind of has the
00:44:46 ◼ ► feeling of being the very nicest 3d printed thing I've ever felt in my life. As opposed to
00:44:53 ◼ ► Josh dingus. No, not that the chalk dingus does not have have that. They also made some curious
00:45:00 ◼ ► decisions where they added extra buttons, they added an action button, which is sort of like
00:45:05 ◼ ► the phone, iPhones action button. And it's just by default, just mapped to some specific function.
00:45:11 ◼ ► It's how can we help you today daylight share feedback report bug ask question. So again,
00:45:18 ◼ ► that might be something they're doing while this is still in beta, the software is in beta,
00:45:22 ◼ ► where it's like, Oh, if you have encounter a bug or anything, there's a button at the top,
00:45:26 ◼ ► you can hit to just get a feedback form right away. Doesn't test flight do that now where it's
00:45:30 ◼ ► like, when you're when you're when you have a test flight installation of a iOS app, and you
00:45:36 ◼ ► take a screenshot, test flight can say, Oh, do you want to send this to the developer because you're
00:45:41 ◼ ► reporting a bug. And those are great, by the way. That's one thing that Apple's added to test flight
00:45:46 ◼ ► that it's really been pictures worth 1000 words. They also added a back button, a hardware back
00:45:54 ◼ ► button, but not on the front face. It's on the side underneath the volume buttons. I it's like
00:46:01 ◼ ► something some Android has had an obsession with hardware buttons, right from the beginning,
00:46:10 ◼ ► and it's never made sense to me running a version of Android, isn't it? It is running a version of
00:46:15 ◼ ► Android. And it's kind of weird where they are, like their help document says they're going to
00:46:21 ◼ ► use something called the Aurora store because they're not I don't think that they're I don't
00:46:26 ◼ ► think they qualify for the Google Play Google Play. But mine has Google Play. I have Google
00:46:32 ◼ ► Play here. So I'm not quite sure what's going to ship on the final software. That was another
00:46:37 ◼ ► question I had was gonna ask you is app wise sounds like there's something something that can
00:46:41 ◼ ► run apps. But yeah, yeah, I mean, are there any apps installed on it? Or? Yeah, there's a came
00:46:47 ◼ ► with the kid. It came with the Kindle, Google Docs chat GPT pre installed Chrome, of course,
00:46:55 ◼ ► there's a chess app, there's an app they call notebook. I'm not quite sure who makes this
00:47:00 ◼ ► notebook app. But it's it's kind of nice. And that's the app that you can scribble in with the
00:47:07 ◼ ► with the stylus here about note shelf. So it's an it's an Android app called note shelf, and by note
00:47:14 ◼ ► shelf incorporated. So you could look it up on Android and see it. I should look and see if
00:47:18 ◼ ► there's an Apple app or an iOS app so I can sync the notes between the two. Overall, it's it's
00:47:26 ◼ ► interesting. It's probably not for me. I don't know. But I'm glad I am so glad I'm I wish I
00:47:32 ◼ ► loved it more. But I'm so glad to see companies like this trying new things in hardware. I really,
00:47:38 ◼ ► really am. And I know that I've made fun of humane and their AI pin. But I'm still glad humane tried
00:47:46 ◼ ► it. And I know that this rabbit are one is sort of I have one of the I did buy one of those. And
00:47:51 ◼ ► I have to say it is in real life. It is pointless. Unfortunately, I honestly I just can't I never want
00:47:59 ◼ ► I take it out with me. It's in my pocket. And I never ever, ever think of a reason to use it ever.
00:48:05 ◼ ► But I'm still glad they made it. I'm glad companies are trying with hardware. I feel like
00:48:10 ◼ ► we went through a very long stretch of consolidation where hardware startups just stopped happening for
00:48:16 ◼ ► a while. Right. The last decade was just really dry on innovative hardware startups. I kind of I
00:48:23 ◼ ► don't know, maybe you can think of some examples. But once Apple Watch came out, yeah, there was a
00:48:30 ◼ ► there was a lot a lot of action going on with with the combat fit. Fitbit in particular and trying
00:48:37 ◼ ► things low. Let's try a watch. Let's try one that's just a band. There was a lot of experimentation
00:48:43 ◼ ► like that. And it feels like Apple Watch took all the oxygen out of that even though Apple Watch
00:48:48 ◼ ► only works for iPhone users. It just feels like even on the Android side of things. In any kind
00:48:53 ◼ ► of innovation and stuff you wear on your wrist sort of stopped. Well, one of the big problems
00:48:58 ◼ ► with doing hardware these days is that we've already talked about it, right? The whole ecosystem
00:49:04 ◼ ► buying the hardware, right? Apple's got this huge expansive ecosystem. So does Google. Right. So
00:49:11 ◼ ► you come up with a device, you're gonna say, well, it doesn't have the syncing key clipboard, it
00:49:17 ◼ ► doesn't have my iCloud drive, doesn't have all these other things, because it doesn't have that
00:49:21 ◼ ► ecosystem. So the hardware, you can look at it and go, yeah, that's a nice display, scrolls nicely,
00:49:30 ◼ ► and all that stuff. But then you get to the point where it's like, what can I do with it? Right. And
00:49:34 ◼ ► that's where the ecosystems become a barrier. Yeah, and I guess my last thing is just to circle
00:49:42 ◼ ► back to what you said, which is, even with this black and white display in the amber backlighting,
00:49:47 ◼ ► which I do think is easier on your on my eyes late at night. Definitely. I mean, it doesn't
00:49:52 ◼ ► glow as much. It is definitely easier. But it still is glowing. And I kind of feel like,
00:49:59 ◼ ► I don't know, that it's so weird, because I still like reading paper books. And that's why my,
00:50:15 ◼ ► I read on it sometimes. But all things considered, I prefer to read paper. But then I'm in bed. And
00:50:22 ◼ ► how do you read a paper book in bed in the night? And there's all sorts of... Piss off the person
00:50:27 ◼ ► next to you. Yeah, there's all sorts of contraptions that people have made over the years.
00:50:32 ◼ ► There's things you snap on the book. Some people have lights on the bed. We don't. But there's,
00:50:39 ◼ ► sometimes hotels will have them too, like a little spotlight over your shoulder for reading at night.
00:50:51 ◼ ► But it goes around, it goes around, it goes around your neck. And it's, and it has two lights.
00:51:05 ◼ ► It's like wearing a flashlight on a plastic boa constrictor that goes around your neck.
00:51:25 ◼ ► It's just funny though, because I think to myself, well, I would like to read a paper book in bed. So
00:51:32 ◼ ► I need to get some kind of light. But then the light is I should just use an iPad. That would
00:51:35 ◼ ► be easier, right? Then you don't have to set anything up. Your wife doesn't point at your
00:51:40 ◼ ► neck and laugh at anything. And when you do want to go to sleep, you just hit one button to shut
00:51:45 ◼ ► off the iPad screen, put it on your table, close your eyes, go to bed. So yeah, I solved that
00:51:52 ◼ ► problem by not reading in bed. Just I just, yeah, in bed, close my eyes. That's, that's sort of
00:51:59 ◼ ► where I've wound up. I don't really read in bed that I mean, honestly, because it's like, it never
00:52:03 ◼ ► seems ideal. And it's more like, I should just go to sleep. Yeah. I don't know. I don't have any
00:52:09 ◼ ► other questions about it. But it's interesting that they're starting to ship in July, they've
00:52:14 ◼ ► batched these up. So people who pre ordered will start getting them, I guess, a month from now,
00:52:19 ◼ ► throughout the rest of the year. And I'm very, very interested to see what other people think
00:52:24 ◼ ► about it. It's by far and away, the most interesting new device ish, like a tablet or e
00:52:32 ◼ ► reader that I've seen in years, I bought a kobo because Jason Snell seemed to like kobos a year or
00:52:37 ◼ ► two ago. And I really hate it. I mean, like in a way that I, I find hard to put into words, like so
00:52:45 ◼ ► hard to put into words that I haven't even figured out how to write a review, where I express my
00:52:51 ◼ ► hatred for it. I, I like it so much less than a Kindle. It's hard to explain. And I thought
00:52:57 ◼ ► because I have so many complaints about Kindle software and Amazon's lack of taste in software
00:53:02 ◼ ► design, that surely I'll like this better than a Kindle, but I don't. And and mainly because with
00:53:07 ◼ ► the kobo, I feel like I can never get the books to look right. I'm the one who's got to play with
00:53:13 ◼ ► the font selection and the line height. The typography by default is bad. The fonts that
00:53:21 ◼ ► are built into it are bad and they let you add fonts. I don't think Kindle does. You connect it
00:53:27 ◼ ► with the kobo. You can connect it and add fonts to a folder. And I spent hours more or less designing
00:53:35 ◼ ► my own books. Whereas if I just bought a paper book, you come out of the store and it's already
00:53:40 ◼ ► been designed by a professional typesetter. I shouldn't have to do this. And the default
00:53:44 ◼ ► shouldn't be so crude. Everything to me on the kobo, everything looks like it was just set in
00:53:49 ◼ ► Microsoft Word by default, but just, it doesn't look typeset. It looks like a manuscript. But
00:53:54 ◼ ► anyway, I find this daylight to be much more interesting, but maybe not that interesting.
00:54:02 ◼ ► But yeah, what are you going to use it for? I'll keep an eye on him. Let's take another break here.
00:54:07 ◼ ► And I will thank our next sponsor of the day. And it is our good friends at nuts.com. Oh,
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00:56:52 ◼ ► my next order. Oh, I love darts. We order a bag of those. They're gone that same night.
00:56:57 ◼ ► It's weird. I like dried bananas to banana chips. Yeah. But for some reason, dried strawberry. I
00:57:04 ◼ ► I've never been a huge fan of raw strawberries. I don't know why because I love strawberry flavor.
00:57:09 ◼ ► And if somebody has strawberries, I will eat them. It's not like I don't but I don't know. There's
00:57:13 ◼ ► something about the texture of them that I've never quite liked from childhood onward. But
00:57:17 ◼ ► dried strawberries. Mmm. Yeah, like nature's candy. Yeah, that's that's it. It's really there.
00:57:23 ◼ ► You feel like it's healthy. But after a bag of them, you realize that's probably not that healthy.
00:57:29 ◼ ► What else do we have? Have you seen the new iPad pros yet? I have not. No. I should know the answer
00:57:37 ◼ ► to this. But you you can answer for me. Does linea? linear take? linear? Is that how you pronounce
00:57:43 ◼ ► it? Yeah. Everybody. You're not the first person to have a problem with the with the son of a bitch
00:57:48 ◼ ► pixel mature all over again. No, yeah, it works fine on it. When we're looking at new stuff that
00:57:54 ◼ ► it can do and yeah, do you get the reflection of the pen or be are you doing enough custom drawing?
00:58:02 ◼ ► We're doing enough custom drawing that we're gonna have to figure out what we're we're gonna do there
00:58:07 ◼ ► that that I believe that's all limited to pencil kit, which is the thing they embed in notes and
00:58:13 ◼ ► all the other apps can embed that but then you you're limited to Apple's drawing experience, which
00:58:31 ◼ ► So you're in the tough spot where Apple's raised the bar for? Yeah. Well, that the thing is, is
00:58:40 ◼ ► that they get in Mayhew that he was the one that originally had the idea he and Troy gall had the
00:58:47 ◼ ► idea for for linea and and he's got the new iPad Pro and he loves it and that there's a use case
00:58:55 ◼ ► there. Let's put it that way. Well, that's what you need is you need a number one user to be
00:59:01 ◼ ► driving a product. Yeah. And he always has been and he Yeah, they're already thinking about cool
00:59:07 ◼ ► things that we can do with that. The thing about the new iPad that the bugs me it's it's like
00:59:27 ◼ ► there is this sort of, and I know you're not like this, you're very empathetic to the normal user,
00:59:34 ◼ ► right? You're not certainly I mean, you're to your whole career is building on this platform, making
00:59:40 ◼ ► software and tools that people come first. Yeah, that the bicycle for the everybody the bicycle
00:59:47 ◼ ► for the mind and it's not you're not making products that are inscrutable. They're scootable.
00:59:52 ◼ ► But there is this sort of and it's slightly entitled and and I know in tight feeling entitled
01:00:03 ◼ ► is pejorative in general. But the idea is if if you have a use case for the fastest possible CPU,
01:00:11 ◼ ► you can get your hands on being a developer who spends all day in Xcode. It seems wrong,
01:00:18 ◼ ► not just weird, but wrong that the fastest single core CPU Apple makes is in a device that's not
01:00:24 ◼ ► meant for running that tool at all. It's not like you can somehow shoehorn Xcode onto it, you can't.
01:00:30 ◼ ► And that just rubs people the wrong way here. Here's this product that you can get like a $3,000
01:00:50 ◼ ► That's the fastest that you can get in a Mac. Why is this? Right? People are frustrated.
01:00:57 ◼ ► And my counter argument is the iPad is a device that does several things, but one of them is just
01:01:04 ◼ ► being nice, right? It is nicer than a Mac in a lot of ways. It has the now that's got the OLED screen.
01:01:11 ◼ ► It's thinner, it's super way thinner than a MacBook could ever be when you're just holding
01:01:18 ◼ ► the naked iPad. And they're built to last like famously like people complain, hey, you know,
01:01:25 ◼ ► I my personal iPad is still from 2018. I probably am going to upgrade this year. It feels like this
01:01:30 ◼ ► is the year where it's yeah, that's, that's a... Yeah, that's the thing. My iPad, I don't even know
01:01:34 ◼ ► how old it is. I've just, it just, I've had it and I've replaced another iPad that I had that just
01:01:40 ◼ ► got to the point where the screen was looking a little wonky and have some problems with the
01:01:45 ◼ ► charging port and it was like, okay, time to get a new iPad. And the thing that I think a lot of us
01:01:53 ◼ ► have noted and it really was Jason, again, Jason Snell got me started thinking about this is the
01:01:59 ◼ ► iPad, yes, it's nice, but it would also make a really great Swiss army knife. Because it's got
01:02:07 ◼ ► the bits of all the different ecosystems, right? It's got the bit for iOS. It's got the bit for
01:02:16 ◼ ► iPadOS. It's got potentially the bits for macOS. And why can't I, I'm not talking about having,
01:02:27 ◼ ► being able to run iPad or run Mac apps while you're running iPad apps. That's just a non-starter in
01:02:33 ◼ ► my mind. But why can't I put the iPad in a mode where it's like, okay, pretend you're macOS now.
01:02:39 ◼ ► Right. And, and let me carry one device when I travel. Right, right now, it's like everybody
01:02:45 ◼ ► who travels, they're looking at their MacBook and they're looking at their iPad and it's like,
01:02:49 ◼ ► which one goes? Because you don't really want to carry both. They're serving very similar functions.
01:03:00 ◼ ► No, because I just take my, I've given up and I just took my matter. No, no, I don't, I don't
01:03:07 ◼ ► travel with my iPad anymore. I mean, maybe if I were going on a vacation, yeah, but even then,
01:03:15 ◼ ► again, we just talked about the daylight computer. An iPad is not really great for beach reading.
01:03:19 ◼ ► A, the screen and B, the sand, right? I don't know. It just kind of bothers me. No matter how
01:03:27 ◼ ► careful you are, I kind of don't want to take my iPad to the beach. But for the most part,
01:03:44 ◼ ► we recently, Lauren and I took a trip to Joshua Tree for a few days and I had that dilemma,
01:03:51 ◼ ► right? Do I want to, because it's just, it was just a little getaway trip and I was like,
01:03:56 ◼ ► okay, do I want to take my iPad or do I want to take my MacBook as well? I've got this little
01:04:00 ◼ ► project that I'm working on in Xcode that I was just kind of wanting to fiddle around with. So,
01:04:05 ◼ ► yeah, I got to take the MacBook, which was great. I fiddled around with the thing for a while.
01:04:10 ◼ ► And then in the evening, it's like I wanted to do some reading and just kind of relax. And that's
01:04:29 ◼ ► John; Yeah, again, it's a messy presentation. And again, it's the number of people that fall
01:04:53 ◼ ► Pete; Right. And I didn't think about this one last week when I was talking about it, but
01:04:57 ◼ ► Apple did officially, with Intel, supported boot camp where you wasn't just emulating Windows,
01:05:04 ◼ ► it was really saying, let's set up a boot partition on your Intel-based Mac. And they made
01:05:10 ◼ ► it as nice as they could for people who would need it. And the typical user who's never even heard of
01:05:16 ◼ ► boot camp was never once bothered by it. It's not like when you bought your brand new MacBook Air,
01:05:22 ◼ ► took it home and booted it for the first time. It didn't start badgering you, like, hey, do you want
01:05:27 ◼ ► to install Windows too? You want to have a dual boot system? It was there for power users who
01:05:32 ◼ ► wanted it or needed it for work to have to be able to boot into Windows. And it stayed out of the way
01:05:38 ◼ ► for others. And so, I can imagine that's where I feel people get like, MG, who really wants to see
01:05:43 ◼ ► them do this, get frustrated. Because they knew that Apple could somehow put this behind developer.
01:05:48 ◼ ► Maybe you even have to have an Apple developer account to turn it on. And that's like a $99
01:06:02 ◼ ► we're not paying an extra $100 just to turn our iPad to let it do a boot Mac OS. We're already
01:06:07 ◼ ► paying it. But it would be a way of keeping any casual user from saying, Oh, well, let me see
01:06:13 ◼ ► what it's like. But you probably shouldn't, nobody's going to accidentally get into it.
01:06:18 ◼ ► And by making it a developer account only feature. I think that would help if anybody at Apple is
01:06:30 ◼ ► which is already a problem that third party developers prioritize iPad less than any of
01:06:37 ◼ ► the other platforms. And it would only be worse if they could say, oh, just dual boot your iPad into
01:06:43 ◼ ► Mac and run our Mac app, which is an Electron app. You know what I mean? And I think that would...
01:06:49 ◼ ► Tim Cynova - Part of the iPad app problem is that the whole universal purchase notion. Apple kind
01:06:59 ◼ ► of brought this problem upon themselves and that building the iPad version of an app takes a lot of
01:07:04 ◼ ► resources. And if it's a buy it on iOS, you get it for free on iPad just doesn't kind of work for
01:07:12 ◼ ► developers. So they're fighting against that. But yes, to your point about the gating this thing,
01:07:19 ◼ ► I'd have no problem with it being gated. I'm not expecting to making a product that somebody can
01:07:25 ◼ ► use on an iPad only in Mac OS emulation mode. I mean, can't imagine anybody thinking along
01:07:35 ◼ ► those lines. What do you guys do with Linea Sketch? Linea Sketch is your iPhone companion to Linea.
01:07:45 ◼ ► Tim Cynova - No, it's a universal purchase. But it's also, it's a much more limited version of the
01:07:52 ◼ ► app. Right? It works on a smaller screen. The tools are harder to access in some cases.
01:08:02 ◼ ► Tim Cynova - No, it doesn't support pencil. And you know, you can draw with your finger,
01:08:06 ◼ ► but that's not great. What we've found is that people mainly use it as a way to show off their
01:08:10 ◼ ► portfolio. They draw something on the iPad, it syncs over iCloud. You can bring it up on your
01:08:22 ◼ ► do all the other... You're not really actually doing much drawing with it, but it's a great
01:08:35 ◼ ► guesses, expectations, hopes, do you feel like maybe there's going to be Xcode on iPad news?
01:08:45 ◼ ► I mean, to me, the... as exemplified by Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro, Apple's way of putting
01:08:56 ◼ ► Pro software on iPad is to go the whole nine yards and make true native iPad versions of
01:09:10 ◼ ► They made a proper iPad app. And so along that same line of thinking, if Apple perceives a
01:09:47 ◼ ► installed Xcode has seen that little panel that comes up that says installing additional
01:10:03 ◼ ► Dave Asprey - Command line tools. There's all sorts of infrastructure that Xcode uses that
01:10:08 ◼ ► works behind the scenes. The process model on iPad OS, you run it, you're basically running
01:10:16 ◼ ► one process at a time, right? You can fake running multiple processes by doing multiple threads,
01:10:23 ◼ ► but having a simulator in one process and having Xcode in another process is just something that
01:10:29 ◼ ► iPad OS can't do right now. It's at a very low level, right? The kernel will not let you
01:10:43 ◼ ► Final Cut Pro exemplifies this, where you can have a big project and export takes a long time.
01:10:50 ◼ ► And if you put Final Cut into the background, the export just stops because it can't do
01:11:02 ◼ ► a three, $4,000 iPad should not have an export fail because while you're waiting for it,
01:11:17 ◼ ► Dave Asprey - Because you have to think about all these shitty developers out there that are
01:11:20 ◼ ► fingerprinting people, right? By looking at, oh, as soon as you give the ability of an iPad app,
01:11:29 ◼ ► the ability to look at other iPad apps process, there are going to be shitheads out there that
01:11:37 ◼ ► go and start, oh, what other apps are running right now? How much memory are these other apps
01:11:42 ◼ ► using? How much CPU time is this process using? And kind of figure out who you are, what you're doing
01:11:51 ◼ ► through inferences. So, yeah, there's a reason that stuff is locked down and hard to do.
01:11:58 ◼ ► And again, makes me think, okay, yeah, just work around that by saying, hey, here's Mac OS
01:12:11 ◼ ► Trevor Burrus - Yeah. I think and I'm out of touch. I mean, I've never been the biggest Xcode expert
01:12:23 ◼ ► Trevor Burrus - I use it enough to build and run something I download from GitHub or something
01:12:31 ◼ ► "Kotobah is sort of the last thing you do." Trevor Burrus - Yeah, yeah. So, I've built and run
01:12:35 ◼ ► that. But you firsthand that whenever I do, I use Xcode just infrequently enough that I also forget
01:12:42 ◼ ► everything in between. Dave Asprey - Yeah, you have code signing problems and all of that.
01:12:59 ◼ ► Trevor Burrus - But I do know though that Xcode, and dating back to when it was Project Builder,
01:13:06 ◼ ► is kind of a very Unix-y way of doing software development under the hood. That you have this
01:13:22 ◼ ► text system. And they've customized it to be a code editor with autocomplete and they've added
01:13:28 ◼ ► all sorts of stuff that is very Mac-appy. But under the hood, it's doing an awful lot of just
01:13:34 ◼ ► old-school Unix stuff. Calling command line, like LLVM, or having a build phase where you can run
01:13:44 ◼ ► Python scripts. Like, "Oh, every time I build, but I want to build for production, run this script,
01:13:51 ◼ ► which can do anything a script can do." Who knows if it's pulling down the latest versions of assets,
01:14:01 ◼ ► "Oh, Python doesn't even come with macOS anymore." But it's easy. You just go to Homebrew and
01:14:11 ◼ ► versions of Python if you still need Python 3.10 and Python 3.11. You can have them both on the Mac
01:14:19 ◼ ► and control which one runs this build script, which kind of needs an older version of Python,
01:14:25 ◼ ► blah, blah, blah. You can do it and it just works. And none of that stuff is even possible on iPadOS.
01:14:33 ◼ ► iPulse so many years ago, what, probably about 15, 20 years ago now, is because, yes, I was running
01:14:40 ◼ ► Xcode and it's firing up a bunch of processes. You want to see one that's gone bad, right? In fact,
01:14:47 ◼ ► the same problem exists today, right? The other day, I was like, my Mac was really slowing down
01:15:01 ◼ ► Tim Cynova Eight hundred and something. It's just some ridiculous number and it's just something
01:15:07 ◼ ► had gone awry, right? And it had a bunch of, I was doing SwiftUI development, which fires up
01:15:12 ◼ ► simulators in the background to render stuff. And I knew that because I had iPulse running and it's,
01:15:18 ◼ ► oh, look at all these things. So, yeah, it just, at a very low level, iPadOS just doesn't have
01:15:26 ◼ ► what it takes to do Xcode. And if I was hoping for something in iPadOS, I would be hoping for
01:15:32 ◼ ► them to address some of these issues, right? Being able to run processes in the background.
01:15:38 ◼ ► When I did iPulse on iOS, I was just about to, I'm looking at it right now and I have it on.
01:15:44 ◼ ► Out of the box, it makes a noise when it's in the background. And it has to because it has to get
01:15:52 ◼ ► through app review. And app review, the first thing they ask for is, okay, you're running this
01:15:57 ◼ ► movie in picture in picture and you've got a background audio entitlement, how does it make
01:16:05 ◼ ► noise? So, I show it has an alert tone if you go over certain thing and it actually is useful.
01:16:11 ◼ ► A couple of times I've used that, but for a lot of people, the first thing they ask is like,
01:16:25 ◼ ► it's a system monitor, CPU, RAM, how much RAM are you using? What's going on in your network,
01:16:32 ◼ ► stuff like that. And of course, well, there's a zillion utilities like that, but there's only one
01:16:47 ◼ ► It's like when you talk about Nova from panic, you're like, oh, another text editor. What's the
01:16:52 ◼ ► trick? Well, this one's designed by panic. If that doesn't get you to at least look at it,
01:16:57 ◼ ► then maybe it's not for you. And it's a system monitor designed by icon factory. Yeah, I'd like
01:17:02 ◼ ► to see that. How does it work on iOS though? It seemingly is doing the impossible because like you
01:17:17 ◼ ► global kinds of information. And that's all that it's displaying is global information.
01:17:22 ◼ ► The difference on Mac OS is you can actually go look at a process and see how much time a
01:17:27 ◼ ► process is actually using or how much process memory is being used. Those kinds of things.
01:17:33 ◼ ► On iOS, that's just not, and I've spent a lot of time trying to dig around and get as much.
01:17:38 ◼ ► And it's just, iOS is locked down for a reason. And as a result, iPad OS is locked down.
01:17:46 ◼ ► So, it would be great if some of these things could open up a bit. And it's not a hardware
01:17:55 ◼ ► limitation, right? That M4 chip is going to be in a MacBook Pro here anytime now, right?
01:18:07 ◼ ► This whole lockdown, one thing on the screen at a time, that whole model worked really well
01:18:15 ◼ ► to get iOS up and running. And I think it made sense to take that and put it on the early iPads
01:18:24 ◼ ► as well. Because they had a bigger screen, but they still had some of the same limitations,
01:18:29 ◼ ► memory, CPU, those kinds of things. Now we're at these devices that are just absolute beasts.
01:18:36 ◼ ► And they're still running with their hands tied behind their back. So, what do you do there?
01:18:42 ◼ ► There's got to be some kind of change there. We're going to be running one process at a time
01:18:55 ◼ ► Pete: The last thing that iPulse on iOS is doing that's clever is, well, how are you even drawing
01:19:07 ◼ ► Pete; You're building a movie and playing the movie and iOS supports picture in picture. So,
01:19:15 ◼ ► in the same way that you can watch a YouTube video in the background while you do other things on
01:19:20 ◼ ► your iPhone, you can watch an iPulse movie in the background and the movie just happens to be
01:19:25 ◼ ► generated on the fly by you, which is really clever. Riley Testa, I keep wanting to call it
01:19:33 ◼ ► iClip, Clip, which is his clipboard manager for iOS, has a similar sort of like the way that to
01:19:41 ◼ ► get through app. If you're doing picture in picture, the video has to be able to play sound,
01:19:45 ◼ ► even though you don't really want sound on a thing. With the clip, to be able to run in the
01:19:51 ◼ ► background to, and again, this isn't even in the app store, this is just to get it into like test
01:19:56 ◼ ► flight and get it approved for test flight distribution, is we can't run in the background
01:20:03 ◼ ► all the time to look for the clipboard to change, which is something all Mac clipboard utilities do.
01:20:09 ◼ ► And in fact, because so many utilities on the Mac include clipboard management as one of several
01:20:14 ◼ ► features, I've got three running all the time. I've got like Keyboard Maestro, I've got Payspot,
01:20:20 ◼ ► which is a dedicated clipboard manager, and Keyboard Maestro does it too, and who cares?
01:20:30 ◼ ► So what Riley's clip does to maintain the ability to monitor clipboard changes in the background is
01:20:38 ◼ ► it remembers where you were whenever you copied anything, and it has location data associated with
01:20:45 ◼ ► it very broadly, like the broadest possible radius. So it's, I don't know, like a mile or something,
01:20:52 ◼ ► because he doesn't want to pinpoint your house or your office or your coffee shop. It's just that
01:20:58 ◼ ► you're allowed to have always on background access with the user's permission, and so that's the way
01:21:05 ◼ ► that he's running in the background at all to watch the clipboard. But it just means that it's—
01:21:11 ◼ ► John: Our friends at Panic are doing a similar thing with Prompt, their SSH client, right?
01:21:17 ◼ ► They have this like location feature, which is just that it's another way to let things
01:21:28 ◼ ► And— here, I'm looking at my last few clips in my clipboard manager here on my phone. I was in
01:21:50 ◼ ► this segment, I guess the thing that I've realized after my last episode that I didn't quite get off
01:21:56 ◼ ► my chest is— and I'm so glad to talk about it again— is with the Mac, going back to 1984,
01:22:06 ◼ ► the whole computer for the rest of us idea, it informed as a kid— I was 11, 12 when I started
01:22:13 ◼ ► reading about the Macintosh and thought, "Boy, this sounds like the way I think computers should
01:22:19 ◼ ► work. This is exciting," which is you don't have to read a textbook to learn how to use the system
01:22:28 ◼ ► first, which is how computers were. You had to read a thick manual to understand all of these.
01:22:34 ◼ ► And they were thick. There were some of the most popular apps at the time had just Bible-sized
01:22:51 ◼ ► Yeah. And if you became an expert in Lotus 1-2-3, you knew nothing about how to use WordPerfect
01:23:02 ◼ ► for DOS. Like, the way that you apply commands wasn't even the same. You'd have to read the
01:23:09 ◼ ► manual for the WordPerfect, too. And the idea with the Macintosh was you, A, the interface would be
01:23:15 ◼ ► discoverable, and you could just look at it and you'd read. And the menus are organized and all
01:23:20 ◼ ► the commands are in a menu, and hopefully the menus have names that are consistent with other
01:23:27 ◼ ► apps across the system, so there's familiarity. And it's, "Oh, I'll bet that would be in the
01:23:32 ◼ ► edit menu." And you look in the edit menu and there's the command. "Oh, yes, that's where it
01:23:37 ◼ ► is. Duplicate. I can duplicate the selected item in the edit menu." Just like I could in this other
01:23:42 ◼ ► app, which has a duplicate command in the edit menu. And you could use the computer very, very
01:23:50 ◼ ► simply and visually. You're just moving a mouse cursor around and double-clicking on icons and
01:23:55 ◼ ► dragging and typing, and you could use it in a very basic way and get a lot of users without any
01:24:02 ◼ ► deep expert knowledge in the Mac interface could get a lot done. And that's very exciting.
01:24:09 ◼ ► But that to become an expert user didn't require you to switch modes. It didn't—there was no secret
01:24:16 ◼ ► toggle to turn on the expert boot into a command line because you're a power user. The Mac
01:24:23 ◼ ► interface scaled to expert use, and you could just learn, "Oh, there's a keyboard shortcut for that.
01:24:30 ◼ ► Oh, they list the keyboard shortcuts next to all the menu items in the thing in the menu bar."
01:24:36 ◼ ► Learning how to do rubber band selection, right? Let's say you have a dozen files on your desktop,
01:24:43 ◼ ► and you'd like to select a bunch of them. You don't have to shift-click, shift-click, shift-click,
01:24:48 ◼ ► shift-click. You could just drag what we call a rubber band, a dotted rectangle, and all the
01:24:55 ◼ ► icons that fall within the region you just dragged out would highlight as they reach the reason,
01:25:02 ◼ ► and then when you let go, they're all selected. And boom, you can select seven items if you have—and
01:25:06 ◼ ► then you could organize your files on your desktop to suit that. "Oh, I might want to drag these
01:25:11 ◼ ► seven files together. These three images, I'll move them up to the corner so that they're apart
01:25:17 ◼ ► from them." And you'd learn these tricks, and all of a sudden you can do things like select 10 files
01:25:21 ◼ ► at once in half a second with a simple click because you learned how to do this. And it would
01:25:27 ◼ ► scale to—I think people like me and you, everybody who's an expert Mac user for a long time has all
01:25:33 ◼ ► sorts of little tips and tricks that other people, if they watched us work, would be like, "Whoa,
01:25:37 ◼ ► whoa, how'd you do that?" And it all fits within the framework that the basicest of basic Mac users
01:25:49 ◼ ► It was a virtuous circle too, right? Because these things were easy, developers saw that they were
01:25:55 ◼ ► using them, and then developer tools they were using, they had these easy things. So, they started
01:26:00 ◼ ► putting them in these easy things in their apps. And I'm not going to put copy command in something
01:26:06 ◼ ► other than the edit menu because nobody's going to know it's there. So, yeah, it—I mean, I remember
01:26:14 ◼ ► the first time I used Mac Paint. It was just like, "My God, this is so simple." And look at the
01:26:31 ◼ ► As I'm clicking and drawing, I'm making art on my computer screen without programming it. I'm not
01:26:38 ◼ ► programming a little turtle and logo to turn 30 degrees and go two inches and turn 60 degrees and
01:26:45 ◼ ► draw a line. No, I'm just clicking and dragging, and I'm making lines, and I can't draw, but boy,
01:26:52 ◼ ► this is fun. Yeah. Where I'm going with this is that base entry point for the Mac, even going
01:27:02 ◼ ► back to 1984, maybe even more so back then, honestly, would allow you to shoot yourself in
01:27:08 ◼ ► the foot if you wanted to. You could drag files that you definitely should not drag to the trash
01:27:13 ◼ ► to the trash. You could open up any file in the system folder with ResEdit and start hacking away
01:27:27 ◼ ► So what was the most—what was—I would say 98% of all ResEdit use was probably tweaking icons,
01:27:44 ◼ ► you decided to try to draw yourself, well, so what? You've got an ugly icon. But you could do
01:27:49 ◼ ► all sorts of other things in ResEdit that would render your software unusable. You could make a
01:28:03 ◼ ► Definitely. I mean, I often say this, but it was like the zen of being a Mac user was like—it's
01:28:09 ◼ ► in those classic days—was a bell curve where the typical entry-level user had no third-party
01:28:14 ◼ ► system extensions when they booted. Then you hit the sweet spot where you've read a bunch of issues
01:28:20 ◼ ► of Macworld and Macuser and maybe MacAdvent. And you've built up this arsenal of your favorite
01:28:28 ◼ ► system extensions and control panels. And it used to be—I remember like in the help columns,
01:28:32 ◼ ► they'd be like, "How many rows of icons do you see when you boot your Mac?" And it'd be like,
01:28:37 ◼ ► "I've got four." And it's, "Wow." And then the real expert, expert power user curve is fewer and
01:28:44 ◼ ► fewer and fewer until you get to—and not all of them. It would always be like the three extensions
01:28:54 ◼ ► Yeah, some sort of SCSI extension or something like that. You absolutely needed to run some hardware.
01:29:51 ◼ ► bounds of power usage on iPadOS. What we're imagining is some way to make the interface
01:30:07 ◼ ► treat it like a big phone, and keep it as simple as possible, and as including the inability to
01:30:16 ◼ ► shoot yourself in the foot. iPadOS doesn't let a typical user open up the resources inside their
01:30:21 ◼ ► applications folder. It doesn't let you trash files you shouldn't be allowed to trash to keep
01:30:26 ◼ ► the system running. That you could keep that entry level, which is even more easily understood and
01:30:34 ◼ ► more comforting in terms of the peace of mind. I do think that this is an under—amongst nerds—under
01:30:44 ◼ ► valued aspect of the appeal of iPads and iPhones, and even Android phones, honestly, is the way
01:30:55 ◼ ► Yeah, you're not going to break anything. And that's one of those kind of those unseen features
01:30:59 ◼ ► that we were talking about earlier, right? Things aren't going to break is a huge feature.
01:31:04 ◼ ► And it's even with the best of intentions. I don't want to, you know, I'll just throw Norton
01:31:09 ◼ ► under the bus. But if you're a PC user, and you're like, I was everybody keeps telling me I should
01:31:14 ◼ ► worry about viruses, I should install Norton. All right, I'm going to install Norton. And you're not
01:31:20 ◼ ► getting scammed. You've gotten the official Norton website, the official Norton download,
01:31:25 ◼ ► and you've run the official installer for Norton utilities, or whatever the Norton antivirus,
01:31:31 ◼ ► whatever it is. You've done what you're supposed to do to install it. But now you've got this thing
01:31:37 ◼ ► running. And maybe it's now it's like taking 15% of your CPU all the time, because it's monitoring
01:31:44 ◼ ► all this stuff. And now your battery life is 20% worse than it was before or your computer never
01:31:50 ◼ ► really gets your laptop never gets cool. It's always maybe the fans aren't on. But it's always
01:31:55 ◼ ► warm. And it didn't used to be that way. Things happen like that. Remember the thing a couple
01:32:01 ◼ ► years ago, Lauren Brikter had it was like Chrome is bad, right? And there was this thing going on
01:32:06 ◼ ► it Lauren Brikter, one of the most expert computer programmers I've ever met certainly knows.
01:32:24 ◼ ► iPhone, right? While he worked at Apple, right? It did cover flow, really pretty stuff. And he
01:32:29 ◼ ► figured out that if you had Chrome installed on a Mac, some number of people had this background
01:32:36 ◼ ► process that was eating up gobs of RAM in the window manager. And nobody could figure out what
01:32:42 ◼ ► was causing it. But if you completely uninstalled Chrome and logged out and log back in the problem
01:32:48 ◼ ► went away. And so something something was going on there. Nobody could figure it out. I it's I've
01:32:54 ◼ ► looked into it every couple months since I make a note here to link to the Chrome is bad.com.
01:32:58 ◼ ► But that could never happen on iPad OS, right? There is no way for Chrome or any app that you
01:33:05 ◼ ► go through the App Store to do something in the background that would do that that would
01:33:12 ◼ ► consume a mysterious 20% of your CPU any at all times, or make the window manager use three times
01:33:18 ◼ ► more RAM than it's supposed to, even when you're not running Chrome. It just doesn't happen.
01:33:26 ◼ ► processing, it's a hard problem, because it's a double edged sword, right? Sometimes in the case
01:33:36 ◼ ► absolutely don't. So, so I just have this nagging feeling, we all want Apple to come up with more
01:33:46 ◼ ► ways for iPad OS to scale to power users usage without getting in the way of those things.
01:33:52 ◼ ► And we, I have this intuitive sense that it must be possible. I don't know what the answers are.
01:33:59 ◼ ► I'm not I know, I'm more of a critic than the designer. Like I don't have a detailed spec for
01:34:08 ◼ ► how to make an iPad OS 18 that makes power users happy in Mac like user ways. I don't. But I'd know
01:34:16 ◼ ► it if I see it. And I can't help but feel that it's possible. And that Apple just hasn't pursued it.
01:34:23 ◼ ► But maybe I'm wrong, right? Well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a system that is as simple at the simple
01:34:32 ◼ ► entry level as iPad OS is, maybe it can't scale that far. Because nobody, to date, no company has
01:34:40 ◼ ► come up with such a system, in my opinion. And they're, they're, they're a bit painted into
01:34:47 ◼ ► the corner right now in a couple of different ways. This, this doing more than one thing at
01:34:54 ◼ ► a time, running things in the background, that on Vision OS is going to be an issue as well.
01:34:59 ◼ ► Visual OS adopts a lot of the iPad mechanisms internally. People calling it the iPad with
01:35:08 ◼ ► the face are not far off as far as from a technical point of view. Right now, obviously,
01:35:19 ◼ ► They also have some resource issues, right? Because a lot of developers are, that were working
01:35:25 ◼ ► on iPad are now working on Vision OS. So, how are you going to, you got to kind of think about this
01:35:33 ◼ ► in a, in a, from a higher level. These, these, these are needs that are going to start existing
01:35:40 ◼ ► across a lot of different platforms, a lot of different devices. So, how do you deal with that
01:35:45 ◼ ► problem? And again, the security on on Vision OS is just as important as it is on other platforms,
01:35:53 ◼ ► in fact, apps probably more so, because you're actually doing a lot more biometrics on that.
01:36:02 ◼ ► some real time aspects that are important safety wise, right? Like some of the, they'll swear up.
01:36:14 ◼ ► you know, like, so, so like the ability for the real time part of the operating system to be
01:36:19 ◼ ► constantly looking for obstacles in your way that you might be inadvertent, you know, walk into a
01:36:34 ◼ ► Pete Lumbly But it is I don't know, maybe Vision OS gives me some optimism on this because it is
01:36:40 ◼ ► and I emphasize this in the last episode too, like the fact that Vision OS 1.0 shipped with the Mac
01:36:45 ◼ ► display app says something about Apple's okay, we want you to be able to do these things on this
01:36:54 ◼ ► device that you can only do on a Mac, here's a way to do it. And I do think it would be a lot cooler
01:37:00 ◼ ► and better if it was completely virtualized within vision OS so that you don't need a $2,000 MacBook
01:37:14 ◼ ► Pete Lumbly Like just having a little magic keyboard and trackpad is a lot less to travel
01:37:18 ◼ ► with than even a MacBook Air. The other thing though, that gives me like, hey, maybe Vision
01:37:24 ◼ ► OS will help iPad OS is the fact that it is a windowing system, not a screen system. And you
01:37:30 ◼ ► can have windows all around you. And your notes is open, mail is open, safaris open, you could be
01:37:37 ◼ ► watching a movie and a window that's behind them all because you're not really paying that much
01:37:41 ◼ ► attention to it. But it's really big. And all of those windows are updating all the time. And
01:37:46 ◼ ► they're ready for you. As soon as you stare at them, they're accepting your input. So hopefully,
01:37:51 ◼ ► they're inching towards that. I just wonder, though, I just worry that we've got this vague
01:37:56 ◼ ► feeling that Apple can anybody could make a system that scales from the simplest of iPad use cases
01:38:02 ◼ ► all the way to Mac power level, and they just haven't done it yet. I could see it both ways
01:38:08 ◼ ► where maybe something that is that simple just has an upper limit on how much it can scale
01:38:14 ◼ ► complexity wise before you start losing some stuff at that simple end. Or maybe it is the problem of
01:38:23 ◼ ► a company. When all of these products come from the same company, Apple, it's easy for them to
01:38:30 ◼ ► ignore the iPad power usage upper limits when they the Mac is right there. And everybody at Apple
01:38:37 ◼ ► already has a Mac and the cynical Tim Cook, Luca mindset of, "Hey, if the worst case scenario is
01:38:44 ◼ ► all these people buy an iPad and a MacBook, that's pretty good for our quarterly." You know,
01:38:53 ◼ ► Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't make, of course, Apple's not going to spin the iPad
01:38:59 ◼ ► off into a subsidiary like FileMaker. But if they did, you can't help but think that it would
01:39:08 ◼ ► quickly gain capabilities, right? That if they said hardware and software wise, we're going to
01:39:17 ◼ ► have this division of 100 hardware engineers and 100 software engineers, I don't know what the head
01:39:22 ◼ ► count would be. But all you guys are going to do is make the iPad as great as you possibly can.
01:39:28 ◼ ► And you're on your own. And you don't have to answer to the same people who are making the Mac
01:39:33 ◼ ► and the iPhone and the watch and TV and the Vision OS. Just go make the iPad, you're the iPad company,
01:39:39 ◼ ► go make it awesome. I think that it would be, it would gain, it would gain Mac like power usage
01:39:48 ◼ ► features quickly, and not in a way that means that it's a cynical decision not to have done it so far,
01:39:57 ◼ ► just that it never bubbles up to the top priority at Apple because there's always something else.
01:40:02 ◼ ► John "Slick" Baum: Again, it's the resources and priority that really is the root of the problem
01:40:21 ◼ ► and start having multiple processors and all the good stuff, more memory. And it's still kind of
01:40:28 ◼ ► the same device, right? Yes, they took the shot at Stage Manager, which a lot of people love and a
01:40:43 ◼ ► Did you see Quinn Nelson's video where he tries to, I'm putting this in the show notes,
01:41:03 ◼ ► he's working, I don't know if it's even out, maybe his full video review is out yet, but he's
01:41:07 ◼ ► obviously testing it, seeing how it works to make a big YouTube video with his review. And he hooked
01:41:13 ◼ ► it up to his studio display. And he was trying to figure out how to make a new window in mail open
01:41:31 ◼ ► It's really painful from a guy who is a longtime Mac and iOS user who probably, you know,
01:41:39 ◼ ► who I think was making good guesses along the way, like, oh, I'll go to the three dot menu.
01:41:46 ◼ ► is he was doing the exact same things I would have done. Right? I would have, that's, oh, yeah,
01:41:55 ◼ ► And that's, I don't know, it just feels like maybe Apple has designed its way into a corner
01:42:08 ◼ ► saying, let's just say, hey, let's keep iPad the way it is, and maybe grow it a little bit with
01:42:15 ◼ ► Stage Manager and other initiatives, things that let more things run in the background more easily,
01:42:21 ◼ ► solve the Final Cut Pro problem. But then also, hey, let's look, step back and look at this thing
01:42:26 ◼ ► as a Swiss Army knife. This is a, it literally is a device in the middle of Apple's ecosystem.
01:42:34 ◼ ► It's above the iPhone and below the Mac. It's kind of in between those two things, physically
01:42:40 ◼ ► and functionally. You can run iPhone apps on your iPad, no problem. Well, let's start looking at the
01:42:49 ◼ ► other direction and not have it. I think your idea of making it something developer-centric
01:42:54 ◼ ► or behind a constraint like, oh, you got to have a keyboard, you got to have a pointing device.
01:43:18 ◼ ► once they were committed to going down the path of Stage Manager, that they could have used that
01:43:23 ◼ ► as the dividing line between simple mode and complex mode. And once you're in, like, if you
01:43:29 ◼ ► never wanted to switch, it's a switch, right? It's off by default, right? It's obviously a,
01:43:34 ◼ ► this is, you got to go enable this. John Gruber Right. And I just feel like once you enabled that
01:43:39 ◼ ► switch, it should have enabled something that was much, much, much more akin to using a Mac
01:43:44 ◼ ► with Windows you drag around and maybe even have a menu bar at the top. And once you turn Stage
01:43:49 ◼ ► Manager off, that all goes away and it goes back to being full screen tiled iPad apps. I don't know.
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01:47:04 ◼ ► What do you think? I think they've got a little bit of AI religion. Yeah. It's how's this gonna
01:47:12 ◼ ► play out? I mean, Apple's been using models for a long time, right? But they never call them.
01:47:21 ◼ ► Think about how much – It's like every time you get a stand notification on your Apple Watch,
01:47:28 ◼ ► right? And you stand up, how does it know that you stood up? It's got some sort of model that
01:47:32 ◼ ► they've trained with people standing up. Same thing with walking and running and all these
01:47:38 ◼ ► different activities. Recognizing pets in your photos or your kids or whatever. It's all over
01:47:45 ◼ ► the place. Are they gonna just rebrand that stuff and say, "Oh, now it's like Apple magic pets?"
01:47:52 ◼ ► Or what? I could be misremembering what else they said. But when they first introduced the
01:48:00 ◼ ► neural engine, which now we call NPUs, but the third part of the third processing unit on a
01:48:07 ◼ ► system on a chip. You got your CPU, your GPU, and now your NPU, which Apple calls a neural engine.
01:48:12 ◼ ► I seem to recall the first times they were talking about it and these ridiculous number of trillions
01:48:18 ◼ ► of operations per second that it can perform was always in the context of the camera app. It's like,
01:48:23 ◼ ► "Oh, you just hit a button in the camera app." But literally a billion little models were run
01:48:28 ◼ ► to sample the pixels and to do the white balance and all of this stuff. And it happens in the blink
01:48:34 ◼ ► of an eye. You don't notice as far as you're concerned, as soon as you hit the button for
01:48:56 ◼ ► you know, as open source and they're clearly working on things. Are they gonna walk down the
01:49:03 ◼ ► Google path where you put it at the top of the page and call it AI overview? That doesn't sound
01:49:09 ◼ ► very Apple-like to me, right? They may call it something like Apple smarts, Apple intelligence,
01:49:41 ◼ ► it's the way that hype cycles work and tech goes through them. It's why tech is tech. Computer
01:49:49 ◼ ► tech evolves quickly. It's why I love my job. It's why I love computers. But hype cycles come,
01:49:58 ◼ ► hype cycles go, some hit and some don't, right? A couple years ago, it was cryptocurrency, right?
01:50:18 ◼ ► people who got into it. But I don't know, none of my close friends really kind of fell for it as like
01:50:23 ◼ ► the next big thing. But it also, it becomes a thing, these hype cycles, and the cryptocurrency
01:50:30 ◼ ► is a perfect example of it, where in addition to the nerds who might buy into it and start hyping
01:50:56 ◼ ► I've worked, I had a job in college, one of my internships was working at a company on the
01:51:03 ◼ ► Philadelphia Stock Exchange, doing like the IT work for their computer. So I had nothing to do
01:51:08 ◼ ► with the actual trading. But I was there to make the computers work. And it was a fun place to work.
01:51:19 ◼ ► the day of the Netscape IPO, which was a very memorable, big IPO. And nobody asked my opinion,
01:51:25 ◼ ► but I remember thinking at the time, "This is that's probably a good one." I don't know if
01:51:28 ◼ ► Netscape is going to be here for decades to come. But they're going to be here for years to come,
01:51:34 ◼ ► right? Like this, this web is a real thing. And Netscape does make the best browser. This whole
01:51:44 ◼ ► everybody thinks of dot-com as a bubble that burst. And it did to some degree, but for the
01:51:49 ◼ ► most part after it burst, we're still left with the modern web, which is a huge thing. It was,
01:51:54 ◼ ► the hype was real. And companies like Google and Amazon that couldn't have existed before the web
01:52:00 ◼ ► are now among the big meta, right? Amongst the bigger companies, there's, who, Microsoft and
01:52:07 ◼ ► Apple predate the web and are still around. And then there's meta, Amazon, Google, who am I missing?
01:52:15 ◼ ► You could put Netflix in there maybe as a media company. And again, even the old Netflix that was
01:52:20 ◼ ► mailing disks to people was the web, right? It was like you'd go to the web to get the actual
01:52:25 ◼ ► disks sent to you in the mail. The web was a real hype cycle. AI feels more like, a lot more like
01:52:33 ◼ ► the web. The current AI moment of LLMs feels more like the web than cryptocurrency than it, which I
01:52:40 ◼ ► thought was a scam. But it also, to me, I don't think it's as revolutionary as the web, right?
01:52:48 ◼ ► David Tompa Yeah, and people are having trouble figuring out what it is. It's, in early days of
01:52:53 ◼ ► the web, you got some really crazy things, you know, that some of these original, the original
01:52:59 ◼ ► fact that dot com bust was because a lot of these dumb ideas just didn't go anywhere, and they kind
01:53:05 ◼ ► of didn't go anywhere at the same time, so it all fell apart. AI, yeah, there are some things I can
01:53:12 ◼ ► see it being really useful at. And then there are other things that just, yeah, that I've got no
01:53:19 ◼ ► Darrell Bock Hints that there's going to be AI, that it's, they're very clearly signaling,
01:53:25 ◼ ► we're going to have a lot to say. Tim Cook literally, I think, said the words, "We're going
01:53:29 ◼ ► to have a lot more to say about AI soon." He couldn't even bring himself to say @WWDC because
01:53:35 ◼ ► he's @Apple, but everybody knew what he meant last month at the quarterly finance call that it meant
01:53:41 ◼ ► WWDC. But I can't help but think that that's sort of placating and that the unreasonable expectation,
01:53:48 ◼ ► both from the nerds and from the CNBC Bloomberg investor crowd, is they want revolution. They
01:53:57 ◼ ► want it to 90, the WWDC keynote starts at 10am and by 1130am, they want an entirely new way of
01:54:09 ◼ ► using the iPhone, the entire way you use your iPhone, all new. It's, it's a totally new,
01:54:16 ◼ ► all based on AI and LLMs and the iPhone as you knew it is dead and here's the new iPhone.
01:54:21 ◼ ► And instead, what we're going to get is iOS 18, which is going to be a nice, here's, here's a
01:54:27 ◼ ► Tim Cook Incremental improvements. Yeah, it's like that in my mind is how things play out. It's like
01:54:32 ◼ ► AI can be used to make a lot of nice incremental improvements, cleaning up photos, right? Do using
01:54:38 ◼ ► a little fine touch of generative AI on images to make photos look nicer. Right? Yeah, that's,
01:54:47 ◼ ► it's not, it's not creating a new image. It's helping you with an image that you already have.
01:55:02 ◼ ► words that you type in. I, I just think it's unrealistic. And I think it's probably a bad
01:55:10 ◼ ► idea. I don't think there is an LLM backed idea for revolutionizing the way we use our phones.
01:55:18 ◼ ► I just don't, I see it. The practical applications of this technology are evolutionary and are
01:55:32 ◼ ► I've seen the praises all the time. And just this week, it surfaced a couple of photos I haven't
01:55:37 ◼ ► seen in 20 years, but the photo widget on my iPhone, just picking photos of the day that it
01:55:43 ◼ ► thinks I might want to see from my library of 20 years of digital photos. It does an amazing job.
01:55:49 ◼ ► They're not, it's not just a random, a random picture. They're picking, using AI to sort of
01:55:55 ◼ ► pick photos of people. It knows that I know in poses and locations that look visually interesting
01:56:03 ◼ ► and AI, the language model can sort of figure out that looks like a happy person in a, on a sunny
01:56:09 ◼ ► beach. I bet that somebody would like to see this photo today. And nobody's head, nobody's mind is
01:56:16 ◼ ► blown by these features. And as they get better, like last year's autocorrect improvements,
01:56:21 ◼ ► which really did get a lot better for me. Nobody's mind is blown by the fact that the next two words
01:56:27 ◼ ► of my email, oh yeah, those are the two words I was going to type space, space, save myself.
01:56:32 ◼ ► The thing, the thing that a lot of people forget is that Apple loves things that are delightful,
01:56:37 ◼ ► right? That whole surfacing old photos delights both me and my wife, right? Sometimes it's a pet.
01:56:50 ◼ ► It's just, it's a delightful moment. And we talk about it, right? It initiates conversations.
01:57:05 ◼ ► augment is Siri. Just, that's a weak point. And everybody knows it, right? Do you know anybody
01:57:17 ◼ ► who says, oh, Siri's great. There's not many people in that. And they sidestep it so many
01:57:25 ◼ ► times. They start off at WWC with, hey, we've made improvements to Siri. Her voice is now better.
01:57:35 ◼ ► Johansson thing kind of, you know, at a certain point making the voice better, I'm not sure that
01:57:44 ◼ ► it is better, right? I'm not sure that it is better to have your voice sound indistinguishable
01:57:49 ◼ ► from a human. I kind of, you know, I'm a Cooper, but I like, I thought like the how nine,
01:57:56 ◼ ► I can't do that, Dave. Yeah. I, but I kind of want my computer to talk like that. Not just,
01:58:01 ◼ ► doesn't have to be the exact actor, but I like it being a little computery. I think C3PO kind of got
01:58:08 ◼ ► that. C3PO had a lot of personality, but it still sounded like a robot. Well, so Siri has to improve
01:58:17 ◼ ► and I don't know if the proof will be in the pudding. I think one of the problems that Apple
01:58:21 ◼ ► has to grapple with there is context, right? These things, again, back to Daniel Jalka,
01:58:28 ◼ ► so often he talks about this Siri mistranscribing, prepare the dough as prepare to die. Well,
01:58:35 ◼ ► the part of the problem there – He makes pizza, so he's always making dough. Exactly. That's the
01:58:40 ◼ ► thing. He makes pizza all the time, right? And Siri doesn't know that, right? And in order for Siri
01:58:45 ◼ ► to know that, it's got to collect some information about him. And we both know how Apple feels about
01:58:50 ◼ ► collecting information about people, right? Where do they put it? Do they share with open AI? Do
01:58:56 ◼ ► they share with – and the way these models work, at least as far as I understand, you've got to
01:59:02 ◼ ► give them the real words, right? Because they're doing a prediction based upon a sequence of tokens
01:59:10 ◼ ► that are basically words that say, "Okay, here's what to expect," right? Prepare the dough makes
01:59:19 ◼ ► more sense for somebody who has pizza in their context than Arnold Schwarzenegger in their context.
01:59:25 ◼ ► Or me, who doesn't make pizza and hasn't made anything out of dough in a very long time.
01:59:31 ◼ ► It – I might be preparing to die more likely than preparing to dough. I don't know. I get it.
01:59:41 ◼ ► Siri has to improve. I'm not quite sure how that plays out. I do think everybody is sort of
02:00:02 ◼ ► And most people, certainly like 70-some percent upgrade to the new OS by the end of the year.
02:00:22 ◼ ► Siri Plus is something that you only get when you have an Apple One subscription with your iCloud
02:00:27 ◼ ► account and you have to pay an extra $5 a month to get Siri Plus? I mean, I don't know. It seems like
02:00:48 ◼ ► Right. Siri has, again, is also 2010, 2011. It was like right when – I think it was right
02:00:56 ◼ ► before Steve Jobs died in 2011 was the Siri – first phone with Siri. And I think it's fair
02:01:05 ◼ ► to say I've never been as big a hater on Siri as most people. I use it. I've never given up.
02:01:19 ◼ ► I view Siri more favorably than most people. I still say it clearly has never lived up to its
02:01:26 ◼ ► promise, right? At no point since Siri debuted has it ever lived up to its promise. And at the
02:01:34 ◼ ► moment, it's further behind its promise than ever before because we've all played with ChatGPT and
02:01:42 ◼ ► these similar tools, which do something similar – conversation, chat versus audio, although you
02:01:49 ◼ ► can now talk to these things too, ChatGPT. And it maintains context and it doesn't make so many
02:01:55 ◼ ► boneheaded mistakes. I mean, there's JaoKits prepare the dough that it just doesn't understand
02:02:00 ◼ ► his accent or whatever. There's Nili Patel who had the comic. He lives in New York and asked
02:02:12 ◼ ► No human being would ever – you can either A, ask which London or B, go to the real London over in
02:02:19 ◼ ► the United Kingdom. There's only – they're the only two things to do. And a human being would know
02:02:24 ◼ ► the answer to that. A human being would have – if you have a personal assistant who's a human being,
02:02:33 ◼ ► Just knowing that phrase, right? I'm thinking, yeah, he's planning a trip. He's an editor at
02:02:39 ◼ ► The Verge. He's probably going over to the UK for some sort of thing and he wants to know what
02:02:45 ◼ ► the weather is, right? You build this story in your head, which LLMs to some degree do that.
02:03:08 ◼ ► And I also think that this all gets whistled past at the moment. Gurman's been reporting – you know,
02:03:13 ◼ ► everybody knows they want to do as much locally as they can. You don't need to be Mark Gurman
02:03:18 ◼ ► to know that Apple would prefer to do as much processing locally on device as possible.
02:03:27 ◼ ► they might have one with both. Who knows how this is going to work? But that's a huge but.
02:03:32 ◼ ► And the idea that Gurman has described it is if it's sufficiently complex, it'll go to the cloud,
02:03:38 ◼ ► and if it's simple, it'll stay on device. But you, the user, need to know that in some ways,
02:03:46 ◼ ► It's people freaked out when they added touch ID. And then they freaked out again when it was face
02:03:51 ◼ ► ID because their face is even more sensitive naturally. Of course, the initial knee-jerk,
02:03:57 ◼ ► "Whoa, whoa, what do you mean you're scanning my face?" is the right attitude for everybody to have
02:04:02 ◼ ► had. But then you read about the way it works, and it never, ever, ever leaves the device, and it's
02:04:07 ◼ ► always on the secure enclave. And the secure enclave has white papers describing just how
02:04:12 ◼ ► secure it is that a thief can pick, can steal your phone and never get access to the secure enclave
02:04:20 ◼ ► without a trillion years of math or something like that, right? That's not true if it's like,
02:04:28 ◼ ► "Oh, who knows if you're complex?" If, you know, you just asked your voice assistant to solve a
02:04:34 ◼ ► math problem. You don't know if that's easy or hard, and if the cloud is busy, and which cloud
02:04:40 ◼ ► it's going to, and are they building up the initial prompt with a hidden prompt to open AI that says,
02:04:49 ◼ ► "You are Siri, the voice assistant on an iPhone, and this iPhone belongs to Craig Hockenberry."
02:04:59 ◼ ► David Erickson He's spent the last 40 years as a professional software developer, and he enjoys
02:05:17 ◼ ► Tim Cynova Another thing that's important is that people are super sensitive to this stuff right now.
02:05:22 ◼ ► Tim Cynova Because, I mean, look at the thing with Slack, right? The, "Oh, we're going to be
02:05:25 ◼ ► collecting information from you." And they're probably just training some ML models that they
02:05:32 ◼ ► help you find emojis or whatever Slack is doing. It's probably not that critical of data, but they
02:05:39 ◼ ► needed to say this, right? This is just part of their corporate requirements. And people are just
02:05:44 ◼ ► like, "Oh, my God." And if Apple does that, right? And Apple's going to do it usually without
02:05:54 ◼ ► explaining a lot of the technical details because they know their market, right? And most of the
02:05:58 ◼ ► people are going to—their eyes are going to glaze over it at the technical details, and they just,
02:06:08 ◼ ► David Erickson I've set my own expectations such that I think I might come away with what I think
02:06:18 ◼ ► of as—the last few years of WWDCs, I think Apple's been on a good run of having enough new features
02:06:28 ◼ ► to feel like, "Yeah, that's another good year's work for iOS 17 and Mac OS 14," or whatever number
02:06:33 ◼ ► we're up to. And I feel like they've done a really good job of rolling them out throughout the year
02:06:40 ◼ ► and having some that don't even appear till springtime, like, "We just got some new features
02:06:45 ◼ ► a couple weeks ago." I feel like they've done a good job of that. I feel like it's going to be
02:06:50 ◼ ► another typical year like that, not revolutionary. And so many people are going to come away from
02:06:56 ◼ ► that keynote thinking that's a total fail. This was supposed to be like the original introduction
02:07:03 ◼ ► of the iPhone. "Oh, you're never going to use a phone the same way again. You're never going to
02:07:06 ◼ ► use your iPhone the same way again because of AI, and that's not going to happen." And I don't think
02:07:13 ◼ ► David Buehler iPhone was a slow roll. People forget the first version of the iPhone, right?
02:07:24 ◼ ► David Buehler Yeah, exactly. One carrier at Edge. No—did the camera do video? I don't even remember.
02:07:32 ◼ ► David Buehler No video on the camera, just stills, right. So, yeah, the iPhone, we look back on it,
02:07:38 ◼ ► "Oh, that was a transformative moment." No, it was the beginning of a transformative moment.
02:07:42 ◼ ► And if I think if Apple does something with AI now, it's the beginning of another transformative
02:07:49 ◼ ► And I don't know—I think it's a very challenging keynote for Apple to write and to craft the
02:07:55 ◼ ► narrative to try to—because I also don't think it's in Apple's nature to falsely hype something,
02:08:04 ◼ ► right? What they say about their products tend to be true, but I kind of feel like they need to
02:08:09 ◼ ► spin, for lack of a better verb, spin this in a way that convinces as many people as possible
02:08:27 ◼ ► David Buehler Right. I could see this beginning as the beginning of kind of an AI branding moment
02:08:33 ◼ ► for them. They've already done some of this stuff, but they're not getting credit for it. And as a
02:08:38 ◼ ► stockholder, I'd like for them to get credit for AI because anything that has AI in the name right
02:08:44 ◼ ► now, it's a good thing for the stock market, right? I'd like my stock in Apple to go up.
02:08:57 ◼ ► That no desire. And Google got burned by this, right? People are absolutely—and for good
02:09:05 ◼ ► reason. They're making fun of Google for just their own slop at the most valuable piece of
02:09:20 ◼ ► David Buehler Yeah. The gasoline one. And the gasoline one was actually something I predicted
02:09:28 ◼ ► David Buehler Right? The one with gasoline was like some AI had generated these recipes.
02:09:33 ◼ ► The little disclaimer at the bottom is these recipes are generated by AI. Don't try cooking
02:09:37 ◼ ► this without using common sense. And Google picked up on that and presented it as if it was the truth.
02:09:47 ◼ ► sorcerer's—Mickey Mouse sorcerer's apprentice problem of, "Oh, now the buckets are making more
02:09:53 ◼ ► buckets and AI being fed slop by another AI really is." And, you know, people are talking about that.
02:10:01 ◼ ► I mean, Nielai Patel had Sundar Pichai on his podcast, Decoder, after I/O and sort of broached
02:10:08 ◼ ► this topic of Google search, at least. Google's a bigger company with more products. But Google
02:10:14 ◼ ► search had a symbiotic relationship for 25 years with publishers of websites. It's the publishers
02:10:21 ◼ ► of websites who are making the content for Google to index and for people to want to find through
02:10:27 ◼ ► Google. And therefore, Google sending enough traffic out, there's an equilibrium of the right
02:10:35 ◼ ► amount. And if AI can just do it all, including people running content farms instead of even
02:10:42 ◼ ► hiring low-wage people to spit out these garbage articles, "Oh, just have ChatGPT spit them out,"
02:10:50 ◼ ► now the scale is effectively infinite, how many of these slop pages and sites you can generate.
02:10:56 ◼ ► And if Google is going to index them and just make the web a place where you just know you're
02:11:02 ◼ ► going to get slop, it hurts everybody, including Google itself, ultimately. Because then there's
02:11:09 ◼ ► no more web or very little good web for people to actually want to get to. It's very tricky.
02:11:23 ◼ ► God help you these days. In fact, if we need a product review, you and I will both go ask Marco
02:11:34 ◼ ► John Greenewald It is. In some ways, we're back to where we were before the internet, where you just find your
02:11:39 ◼ ► friend who you think is the biggest expert on cars and say, "What do you think of this car?"
02:11:47 ◼ ► John Greenewald Yeah. And I guess there's rumors that Xcode is finally going to see, you know,
02:11:58 ◼ ► John Greenewald I like coding too much. A lot of these tools are for people who don't like doing
02:12:04 ◼ ► certain things, right? They don't see the joy in crafting an image, so they use generative AI,
02:12:11 ◼ ► mid-journey or whatever, to create these images. And for me, the more interesting use case,
02:12:19 ◼ ► as far as Xcode is concerned, is to get some code that I haven't written and say, "Summarize what
02:12:27 ◼ ► this is doing to me. Help me understand this," which it can absolutely do. There may be some
02:12:35 ◼ ► cases where, yeah, write me some code, get me started with something here, but it's like Stack
02:12:42 ◼ ► Overflow, right? Anything I see on Stack Overflow, I have a great distrust for, because it's just a
02:12:48 ◼ ► lot of cases, just, "Oh, I got this working." You know, you don't necessarily understand why it's
02:12:53 ◼ ► working. And that's going to bite you in the ass down the road, right? And one of the reasons that
02:12:58 ◼ ► people love our products is because they work really well, and the reason they work well is
02:13:02 ◼ ► because we understand what they do. Pete: Yeah, everybody's gotten to a Stack Overflow page where
02:13:08 ◼ ► it's like, somebody asks a question, you're like, "Hey, that's kind of my question too. This is close
02:13:13 ◼ ► enough. What's the answer?" And there's a top answer, and you're like, "Huh, I don't know."
02:13:18 ◼ ► And then you scroll down a little bit more, and seven months later, there's an answer that,
02:13:23 ◼ ► because it came seven months later, didn't really get upvoted. But it's like, "Oh, the original
02:13:28 ◼ ► answer to this is actually wrong," or, "That's going to prove very slow." Here's what you…
02:13:35 ◼ ► Pete; Here's what you want to do. John; Somebody had implemented that and found out that it didn't
02:13:39 ◼ ► work in that case and fixed it, and that's, those are the ones that you look for. And is an AI going
02:13:45 ◼ ► to be able to look for that? Probably not. It's going to go for the top-rated one, right?
02:13:49 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah. I don't know. That's just where, more or less, where I guess I'll leave my WWDC
02:13:53 ◼ ► prediction. My prediction is that Apple does have a bunch of AI features, but I think that they're
02:13:59 ◼ ► going to come across to the hype crowd as… John; Oh, it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be
02:14:04 ◼ ► disappointing, for sure. Pete; Too simple. Too evolutionary. It's a dozen different ways that
02:14:09 ◼ ► are evolutionary. And if three or four of them hit each user, that's great. Three or four new features
02:14:15 ◼ ► for each user, which might be a different three or four features for someone who's an avid
02:14:20 ◼ ► photographer than for somebody who is a busy real estate person with a crazy, complicated calendar
02:14:28 ◼ ► that could use some AI sorting of their calendar. John; To summarize, you know, what's my week look
02:14:33 ◼ ► right? It's like, my calendar's got, it's okay Thursday, I'm doing a talk show. That's my event
02:14:39 ◼ ► for the day. Pete; Right. Which day this week would be a good one for me to have a long lunch?
02:14:43 ◼ ► John; Right. And some of these things, they're not impressive when you first hear about them,
02:14:50 ◼ ► right? So, last year it was like, okay, we can do pets now with the recognition stuff. And I was
02:14:55 ◼ ► like, yeah, okay, that's mildly interesting. And then the first time it's like, I wanted to go look
02:15:01 ◼ ► at a friend of mine's dog and it's tapped on that thing. It's like all these pictures of Perla. I was
02:15:08 ◼ ► like, oh, this is great. This is really awesome. Because she'd passed away, right? And I was like,
02:15:22 ◼ ► LLM product people are familiar with is ChatGPT, which is a chat interface, right? This is what
02:15:28 ◼ ► people think of with LLM. And I think Germin, again, all of our rumors come from Mark Germin
02:15:34 ◼ ► these days. But it said it's unclear whether Apple's going to have a chat interface. Probably
02:15:40 ◼ ► not, that Apple's not comfortable with it. My question is, if you really, and it gets to like,
02:15:45 ◼ ► where maybe Germin isn't that great at thinking like a designer. But like, where would this chat
02:15:53 ◼ ► interface go? Like, where would they put it? Like, when you talk to Siri, you don't get a transcript.
02:16:00 ◼ ► And even if you did, there's no Siri app that you go to that would show a transcript. The only app
02:16:06 ◼ ► they have that could, I think, fit a ChatGPT-style interface would be iMessage, right? Where,
02:16:13 ◼ ► what if they add the ability to chat at Siri in iMessage? But is that really a good idea? Does
02:16:22 ◼ ► that really what people think of? Did people want that in iMessage that you're chatting for a robot?
02:16:29 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebe** Well, at Wavelength, the startup I'm advising, we have that where we've added AI,
02:16:35 ◼ ► and you can make, you know, like a fake Don Rickles or something, which of course is where I
02:16:40 ◼ ► went. But we're not iMessage, right? We're, it's a small startup, and we could do something like
02:16:46 ◼ ► that. And it's sort of a novelty to drop bleeding edge users into it. I don't know that that's
02:16:52 ◼ ► appropriate for a group chat. Definitely. **Matt Stauffer** Well, as far as UI, you know,
02:17:01 ◼ ► it's chat, and sometimes you're asking questions, it falls between the messages and Spotlight.
02:17:10 ◼ ► Maybe it's heavily weighted towards one and one instance and heavily weighted towards another and
02:17:21 ◼ ► **Matt Stauffer** So yeah, I'm sure they're thinking about it. I mean, we're not the first
02:17:25 ◼ ► two people to wonder that. **Beserat Debebe** Well, we'll find out soon. Let me thank you for
02:17:33 ◼ ► your time. People can find you on social media. What's the best one? Probably Mastodon, right?
02:17:47 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebe** Icon factory, makers of numerous fine products. We talked about iPulse,
02:17:53 ◼ ► System Monitor for both Mac and iOS, believe it or not. And of course, Linnea, which I've
02:18:01 ◼ ► **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, well, the guys on ATP have the same problem, so you're not alone.
02:18:15 ◼ ► Universal Timeline, which I'm happy with how things are going. I'll just put it that way.
02:18:19 ◼ ► You don't want to hype it too much, but me saying I'm happy with the way things are going,
02:18:27 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebe** It says a lot to me. Yeah, was that the secret project that you wanted to
02:18:56 ◼ ► I can be lying in bed, cooking dinner. It's constantly processing, along with other things.
02:19:04 ◼ ► That's not all I think about, but there's this kind of a background signal there that's,
02:19:10 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebebe** What's the end of the... I'm drawing a blank on the name. It's Wallaby?
02:19:20 ◼ ► which is a cool new app that you guys have made, and with nice rewards for your Patreon.
02:19:26 ◼ ► **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, one of the rewards we gave the Patreon backers was a year subscription
02:19:33 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebebe** Right, which is a really, really fun little app that you guys have... Well,
02:19:46 ◼ ► And we have a schedule of we've got to do a new release every week. So, yeah. It's nice that way,
02:19:55 ◼ ► too, because it's like when there's some sort of event, like a new movie or something. It's like
02:20:00 ◼ ► when the new version of when the latest episode of Dune came out, we released a bunch of really
02:20:05 ◼ ► nice Dune wallpapers. And then there's a new Bob's Burgers episode coming out. So, we're doing Bob's
02:20:14 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebebe** It takes me back to the old days of icon factory, when it really was mostly
02:20:19 ◼ ► icons, and you guys would do like an icon... Like, "Oh, they're going to make the first Star Trek
02:20:37 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebebe** I will also thank our sponsors of the show. They were Squarespace,
02:20:42 ◼ ► where you can build your own website and all sorts of other stuff. Nuts.com, where you can