The Incomparable

256: Space Bureaucracy


  this episode of the incomparable is [TS]

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  dot-com / incomparable incomparable [TS]

  number 256 july 2015 [TS]

  welcome back everybody to the [TS]

  incomparable podcast I'm your host Jason [TS]

  L every year for the last few years we [TS]

  have looked at the nominees for the hugo [TS]

  words which has long been one of the [TS]

  finest awards in the world of science [TS]

  fiction a little less so lately a little [TS]

  less so since we started reading all the [TS]

  nominees if I gotta be honest but i [TS]

  always loved the Hugo's and I always [TS]

  loved reading it makes a good reading [TS]

  list to check out especially the novels [TS]

  in the hugo award category and so we're [TS]

  going to continue our tradition by [TS]

  talking about hugo nominees in this [TS]

  episode before the hugo nominees are [TS]

  given out at Sasquatch on in spokane in [TS]

  August which i should mention by the way [TS]

  many members of the incomparable will be [TS]

  appearing at that convention and [TS]

  performing the incomparable radio [TS]

  theatre and probably will be recording a [TS]

  special episode then too so we will be a [TS]

  part of the magic joining me to talk [TS]

  about the hugo words it first i would [TS]

  like to introduce a one-time Hugo [TS]

  nominee for her podcast charity it's [TS]

  erica and sign hello [TS]

  for a second i was really excited i was [TS]

  like oh my god who did you get as a [TS]

  guest and everybody's talking about me [TS]

  it's you don't get too excited you can [TS]

  do you spend a lot of time with this [TS]

  this person so yeah you know all of all [TS]

  of it pretty much all of it i am also [TS]

  out there David lower who I don't have [TS]

  you have you done this [TS]

  have you done this you go thing before [TS]

  yeah i was i was online last year [TS]

  alright because they did the retro [TS]

  Hugo's and oh yeah you and Monty did a [TS]

  lot of retro you going I yes good times [TS]

  good times [TS]

  and of course I wouldn't talk about [TS]

  things that are written without Scott [TS]

  McNulty hi scott i am once again [TS]

  disappointed in the hugo so keeping up [TS]

  the tradition [TS]

  well you know they didn't there was no [TS]

  no parasite booktube i'm eric grant was [TS]

  not nominated so we got we didn't didn't [TS]

  have to read any me regret this year [TS]

  Scott that's true we did have to read [TS]

  well I read well we'll just [TS]

  hey ya mean some of us started that and [TS]

  didn't finish it [TS]

  alright well it's we should we should [TS]

  start we should start there [TS]

  we should start with the novel's i [TS]

  guess.i guess even before we started [TS]

  there though we should probably mention [TS]

  Hugo's this year very controversial last [TS]

  the last few years what has been clear [TS]

  to any anybody who is saved on a podcast [TS]

  about the Hugo's is that there's a [TS]

  there's been a really a real hole in the [TS]

  process which is the nomination process [TS]

  where it's fairly easy to get a [TS]

  nomination if you have a a bunch of [TS]

  like-minded people who are voting [TS]

  specifically to get some stuff on the [TS]

  ballot the nominations are very small [TS]

  and and you end up with a small number [TS]

  can get you on the ballot and we've seen [TS]

  that not just with a sort of organized [TS]

  political stuff which we've seen the [TS]

  last few years with the sad puppies and [TS]

  rabbit puppies campaign which have [TS]

  largely filled out the short fiction [TS]

  fiction ballot this year but even just [TS]

  in phantom I've heard a lot of people [TS]

  who are not doctor who fans i know [TS]

  that's a crazy idea Erica who would be [TS]

  so awful as to not be a doctor who fan [TS]

  shaking head complain about all the [TS]

  doctor who episodes that have gotten and [TS]

  got nominated and then have one of the [TS]

  street that has kind of come to an end [TS]

  the last couple of years but there's [TS]

  appeared there were every almost [TS]

  everything was Doctor Who and certainly [TS]

  I mentioned the the works of mirror [TS]

  grant the case where there's a committed [TS]

  fan base was very excited and votes and [TS]

  really likes a particular author and and [TS]

  so good for them they do that but it [TS]

  this year what what has happened is that [TS]

  a lot of the categories have been [TS]

  swamped by a particular slate of people [TS]

  the sad / rabbit puppies where they have [TS]

  sort of tactically nominated certain [TS]

  certain works because of push and poll [TS]

  of what they think science fiction [TS]

  should be and because of some politics [TS]

  and you know and things that are not [TS]

  related to weather stories are good or [TS]

  not i would argue so it's it's [TS]

  problematic it it reading the hugo [TS]

  nominees has always been somewhat [TS]

  problematic because there's always that [TS]

  moment where you think how did this get [TS]

  nominated but this year was really for [TS]

  me it was a whole other level than it's [TS]

  been in the past [TS]

  did did other people feel that same way [TS]

  this is only my second year actually [TS]

  reading all of the nominees so it [TS]

  yeah i would say that Jose and I [TS]

  actually like some of the stuff that you [TS]

  guys didn't like so much last year right [TS]

  and i still felt that there was a [TS]

  significant drop-off in the overall [TS]

  quality of the work that was that was on [TS]

  the ballot for sure Scott well i mean i [TS]

  think that this just continues my [TS]

  disillusionment with Hugo's in I've [TS]

  talked about this before where I is [TS]

  always before i started reading also [TS]

  nominated works i always thought that [TS]

  the Yukos was kind of like the Oscars [TS]

  and its really the people's choice and [TS]

  if you get the People's Choice you're [TS]

  gonna get a lot of crap because the [TS]

  people are stupid crap that's that's my [TS]

  misanthropy that I was looking for and [TS]

  David you do you have any any thoughts [TS]

  on this regard [TS]

  well this is the first year i've [TS]

  officially read them as someone who gets [TS]

  to vote since you have to buy a [TS]

  membership to ship-to-ship to con and [TS]

  then since we're all gonna be there so i [TS]

  got well okay I'll read everything you [TS]

  know in previous years I've read the [TS]

  good stuff i've read the stuff I've [TS]

  heard about I've read the stuff that you [TS]

  know I've heard about on on the podcast [TS]

  even and so so I've kind of avoided [TS]

  things that you know you go [TS]

  I don't need to read anymore mirror [TS]

  grant for instance um so this year [TS]

  trying to to plow through everything [TS]

  there's some really good things and you [TS]

  can go yeah alright I see where that was [TS]

  nominated and there's a lot of stuff [TS]

  that i would have rejected in a writing [TS]

  class which you don't expect that an [TS]

  awards ceremony you know novo of a [TS]

  series of nominees i mean this is this [TS]

  is high school level in some cases if [TS]

  that and we'll get to that there's some [TS]

  foreshadowing for you [TS]

  hello I can't help but think as I read [TS]

  all of this stuff that at and apologies [TS]

  to Erica but the only category that [TS]

  really matters is the novel category and [TS]

  I think that a 44 people i mean i know [TS]

  there's this the very devoted fandom [TS]

  that is involved world cons and they're [TS]

  very concerned about the process and I [TS]

  understand all that and your respective [TS]

  that I don't care about any of that [TS]

  and the only thing I ever really care [TS]

  about the heroes is the novels because [TS]

  i'm a novel reader and i think that the [TS]

  slate this slate of novels is not so bad [TS]

  with one exception perhaps the rest of [TS]

  the rest of the things i think it's [TS]

  easier to get stuff in the other [TS]

  categories because most people and this [TS]

  is I'm assuming most people read more [TS]

  novels than they do short fiction which [TS]

  it doesn't seem to make much logical [TS]

  sense since short fiction takes so [TS]

  little time to read but novels are so [TS]

  much more popular that I think that [TS]

  everyone who's voting certainly when I [TS]

  nominated I had a list of novels that I [TS]

  nominated I didn't have a list of [TS]

  anything else that nominated other than [TS]

  podcast short stories generally God [TS]

  about a thousand ballots yesterday [TS]

  actually had 1174 nominating balance [TS]

  yeah the novel in the novella were also [TS]

  in the ballpark and best novel got 1,800 [TS]

  ballots so dramatically larger pool [TS]

  nominating for novel than for the short [TS]

  fiction category [TS]

  however the number of actual entries [TS]

  nominated for best novel is much smaller [TS]

  than the number of entries for something [TS]

  like best short story best short story [TS]

  had 728 best novel only had 587 yeah i [TS]

  mean the number of short stories [TS]

  published in a year versus the number of [TS]

  novels published in a year i think i [TS]

  think one of the one of the things and [TS]

  we can maybe talk about this if we talk [TS]

  about things like graphic story and [TS]

  dramatic presentation and it's actually [TS]

  I think why the novel was harder for a [TS]

  slate to game is it's a lot harder to be [TS]

  to create something that's eligible in [TS]

  one of those categories like to make a [TS]

  TV show or a movie you have there are [TS]

  lots of gatekeepers that aren't [TS]

  necessarily there for sure I mean for [TS]

  some of these short fiction categories [TS]

  especially you can just [TS]

  just put it on a website and say [TS]

  nominate this and it can get nominated [TS]

  and it's a lot harder to do that free [TS]

  you know major motion picture [TS]

  yeah and while Scott may say that the [TS]

  you know the novel is the most important [TS]

  category at it i don't think i actually [TS]

  agree with this it is the most popular [TS]

  category but I i would actually argue [TS]

  that that the other categories are more [TS]

  important because they're going to have [TS]

  more of an effect on the authors who are [TS]

  nominated in those categories and I am [TS]

  totally biased because actually work for [TS]

  a magazine the publisher fiction so the [TS]

  clear that right up front but I'm but [TS]

  what it means [TS]

  financially I mean that the novel [TS]

  category as well but especially for [TS]

  people who published short fiction which [TS]

  is somewhat gaining ground on the in the [TS]

  past few years but not as fast as if I [TS]

  would like I think it's more important [TS]

  for those categories because because the [TS]

  effect is is much more and more grand [TS]

  for the people involved in the category [TS]

  well Scott correctly predicted your [TS]

  disagreement so that I didn't say that [TS]

  it was more important I just was only [TS]

  one that mattered [TS]

  pardon me for parsing that correctly we [TS]

  have a disagreement in the same therapy [TS]

  I'm I'm already taking a drink so let's [TS]

  let's let's talk about the novel's i'm [TS]

  not saying that they're better or worse [TS]

  i'm just saying that let's talk about [TS]

  them first [TS]

  there there were so they're also we had [TS]

  some shifting nominations where people [TS]

  dropped out who were not happy to have [TS]

  been included in slates but i'm just [TS]

  going to list the final nominees here [TS]

  and we can talk about them some of them [TS]

  we've talked about a little bit before [TS]

  in our nebulas episode which i will link [TS]

  in our show notes but because there were [TS]

  a few repeat nominees but we're talking [TS]

  about them again since this is a [TS]

  different crew then we have on that [TS]

  episode Scott and I are the only ones in [TS]

  common between the episodes so ancillary [TS]

  sword got nominated the sequel to the [TS]

  winner last year ancillary justice by [TS]

  and lucky [TS]

  scott and i talked about this in the [TS]

  nebula nebula episode David and Erica [TS]

  did you read ancillary sword you okay [TS]

  what do what your what your thoughts [TS]

  David why don't you go first [TS]

  I i really enjoyed it I enjoyed the [TS]

  first one and was so sorry that I had to [TS]

  miss the episode you guys did on it [TS]

  because it just [TS]

  it's it's dense it doesn't make any [TS]

  apologies for not explaining things your [TS]

  pledges you right into this world and [TS]

  this this existence and you have to [TS]

  figure out your genders you have to [TS]

  figure out time you have to figure out [TS]

  how the ships and the ancillary is [TS]

  everything work and it just held my [TS]

  attention which a lot of books don't [TS]

  necessarily do you know i'll read and [TS]

  can look up at the TV and go what are [TS]

  the kids doing and i'll get a drink this [TS]

  one I picked up and I I just plowed [TS]

  right through it so the sequel pretty [TS]

  much the same experience i mean i would [TS]

  i would say it was probably my favorite [TS]

  of the five but it was close with one of [TS]

  the other ones we'll get to that Erica [TS]

  what did you think of ancillary sort who [TS]

  i am i'm not on the same page as David i [TS]

  did as i said on last year's episode i [TS]

  enjoyed ancillary justice very very much [TS]

  even though reading it felt a little bit [TS]

  like work but not in a bad way and I [TS]

  felt that that was the the same with [TS]

  this one [TS]

  it did feel a little bit like work but i [TS]

  think you know because some of the best [TS]

  books that i've ever read have been [TS]

  challenging so that's that's an okay [TS]

  thing but the difference here is that [TS]

  with ancillary justice [TS]

  I was so curious about this world in a [TS]

  society that was really anxious to get [TS]

  back into that world every time I had to [TS]

  put the book down and with ancillary [TS]

  stored i just didn't have that impetus [TS]

  quite so much this installment just [TS]

  didn't have that feeling that like I [TS]

  could expect a new discovery around [TS]

  every corner which I got with the first [TS]

  one so I found myself less likely to [TS]

  pick it up i actually ended up [TS]

  alternating between this one and skin [TS]

  game and between the two of you thought [TS]

  I had kind of a a good balance of over [TS]

  of all the different elements i was [TS]

  looking for but on its own [TS]

  ancillary sore just didn't quite float [TS]

  my boat I still think it was an [TS]

  incredibly well-written book [TS]

  well-written story but they still find [TS]

  that world fascinating i just wasn't as [TS]

  excited about it this time [TS]

  so definitely not my favorite this year [TS]

  when it is the middle of a trilogy [TS]

  exactly is we don't necessarily know and [TS]

  I'm really looking forward to the third [TS]

  installment because you know quite often [TS]

  I feel like you know its middle child [TS]

  syndrome like it just kinda [TS]

  and then the third one ramp students [TS]

  attention back up so I'm excited for [TS]

  that one of the things i mentioned in [TS]

  the nebula episode was that the very end [TS]

  of ancillary justice feels like there [TS]

  were suddenly going to be entering into [TS]

  Star Trek The Next Generation and what [TS]

  ancillary sort gives us deep space nine [TS]

  which is a little bit of a surprise that [TS]

  we're going to have this smaller story [TS]

  on a space station and that took me back [TS]

  but what I what I've realized thinking [TS]

  about it afterward is that one of the [TS]

  things and lucky is really doing is kind [TS]

  of critiquing Empire and I think in a in [TS]

  a in a novel that is itself a space [TS]

  opera she is and the whole idea of Star [TS]

  Empire's and things like that [TS]

  both books are about the ugly side of [TS]

  empire and applying that to a space [TS]

  opera context so you know in the first [TS]

  book they talk about a massacre in a on [TS]

  a planet that is being taken over by the [TS]

  ratch Empire and in this book what [TS]

  you've got is this planet with [TS]

  plantations and what I'm you know poorly [TS]

  treated workers on them and this kind of [TS]

  upper class of people who are running [TS]

  the plantations and I thought that was [TS]

  really interesting I thought it just as [TS]

  evocative as as the kind of running [TS]

  through the the frozen landscape into [TS]

  ancillary just as an ancillary sword i [TS]

  remember the main character doing her [TS]

  runs through the plantations beyond [TS]

  where she's supposed to go and seeing [TS]

  the people who live and work there and [TS]

  and I i just--that's like sort of an [TS]

  indelible image for me in this up that [TS]

  and also that the swimming pool leaks in [TS]

  the space station and that's a key a key [TS]

  plot point but you know I I find I am I [TS]

  for me I didn't like it as much as [TS]

  ancillary justice but what I was [TS]

  surprised by is how different it was and [TS]

  i like that that was kind of almost [TS]

  ambitious in a way certainly do not just [TS]

  write the same book again and I see what [TS]

  she's doing in terms of the commentary [TS]

  she's trying to trying to provide about [TS]

  like you know Star Empire's aren't so [TS]

  great because they're still empires and [TS]

  the Empire's tend to do bad things to [TS]

  people under there under their boot yeah [TS]

  and see I like the fact that it wasn't [TS]

  the same book and and of course I've [TS]

  said before I love deep space nine [TS]

  something Scott you want to revisit [TS]

  ancillary sort a little bit [TS]

  uh sure let's see if I can remember Chad [TS]

  happens because swimming pool leagues a [TS]

  couple weeks that's true there's a [TS]

  plantation I remember I heard you guys [TS]

  talking about all these elements and I [TS]

  was reminded why i remember enjoying it [TS]

  okay IIM on the same page with erica i [TS]

  think the first book was revelation and [TS]

  then you come back to the same [TS]

  characters and it can't be a revelation [TS]

  again which is kind of a disappointment [TS]

  but then it's well-written it's it's [TS]

  it's a fine book it's also the middle of [TS]

  the trilogy it's hard to give a an award [TS]

  to the middle of the trilogy or to a [TS]

  book that starts the trilogy that's [TS]

  actually the second trilogy that's [TS]

  foreshadowing oh so how but I liked a [TS]

  lot i like brick I think it's [TS]

  fascinating records good character i [TS]

  think i think my problem with it is that [TS]

  the impression i got and this isn't [TS]

  maybe on me is that having set this [TS]

  world up in in the first book about the [TS]

  the clones and the different Emperor's [TS]

  in this star spanning battle between [TS]

  clones of the same Emperor who are [TS]

  turning against each other in this [TS]

  mysterious alien force that's trying to [TS]

  undermine the whole thing I expected the [TS]

  canvas to get broader in book 2 and it [TS]

  it absolutely doesn't there are hints of [TS]

  what's going on in the background but we [TS]

  didn't get the star spanning you know [TS]

  the first book takes us right to the [TS]

  palace basically right to the Emperor [TS]

  and it by the end of the book and this [TS]

  book is you know we're in backwater [TS]

  essentially at a space station and that [TS]

  that's not bad necessarily like i said i [TS]

  love that she didn't write the same book [TS]

  again but I thought we were going up and [TS]

  we were actually going down and so it [TS]

  took me by surprise for me i am a sucker [TS]

  for beginnings [TS]

  I am but with the first in a trilogy is [TS]

  almost always my favorite the first book [TS]

  in a series i mean anything we're just [TS]

  discovering a new world that's that just [TS]

  completely gets me and that's [TS]

  foreshadowing for another book will talk [TS]

  about so so i think i was predisposed to [TS]

  like ancillary justice and you know just [TS]

  drop off a little bit no matter what [TS]

  Francis restored [TS]

  yeah I think that's fair time to take a [TS]

  break and let me tell you about our [TS]

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  alright let's move on and talk about the [TS]

  dark between the stars by kevin j [TS]

  anderson who I have [TS]

  i don't think i've read any of his books [TS]

  he wrote a lot of star wars books right [TS]

  isn't that it's never a star wars books [TS]

  here in the the prequel to Superman [TS]

  that's all about his parents on Krypton [TS]

  and go and he's the one who work with [TS]

  Brian Herbert on the interview tomorrow [TS]

  okay [TS]

  it is he is someone whose books i have [TS]

  given up on many minutes put it that way [TS]

  and my impression from reading this book [TS]

  and and I think this is always fair to [TS]

  say this is not not in the middle of a [TS]

  series but is the direct sequel to a [TS]

  previous series [TS]

  okay that explains so much did not know [TS]

  that as far as i can tell i I think I [TS]

  looked that up and discovered that there [TS]

  were there were references in the [TS]

  beginning of this book are you [TS]

  there's a previous trilogy yeah but this [TS]

  book starts basically just picks up [TS]

  right from and you start reading if this [TS]

  is the only book that you've read in the [TS]

  series [TS]

  I only speak for myself you have no idea [TS]

  what's coming up huh [TS]

  yep get ready well you you eventually do [TS]

  because he tells you over and over and [TS]

  over and over again what each [TS]

  character's motivation and every time [TS]

  you start a new chapter [TS]

  that's true and yet we keep getting new [TS]

  can I felt like I don't know how long [TS]

  this book was but I felt like there were [TS]

  more characters and their work pages [TS]

  said that about 8,000 pages long but no [TS]

  sorry 5,000 pages long sentence [TS]

  elementals appear at some point that I'm [TS]

  like what's going on I don't understand [TS]

  his sentimental that's right there are [TS]

  spaced gypsies [TS]

  I don't know yeah they did every chapter [TS]

  you think when are we going to get back [TS]

  to those characters we saw in the first [TS]

  chapter and it takes a long time because [TS]

  there are so many characters and there [TS]

  are so many chapters and there's so many [TS]

  pages and and into his credit I suppose [TS]

  this is a I mean this could not be a [TS]

  wider screen epic because there's just [TS]

  an endless cavalcade of different [TS]

  characters that that that come on board [TS]

  in the story I couldn't get through it [TS]

  in fact I couldn't get more than about a [TS]

  hundred and fifty pages into it because [TS]

  it reminded me and people who like the [TS]

  sort of thing you know [TS]

  might like it although I it reminded me [TS]

  of foundation a little bit in the sense [TS]

  that it is a a galaxy-spanning space [TS]

  opera where there's a lot of ideas that [TS]

  are told by people standing around [TS]

  talking about their ideas and lots of uh [TS]

  it's just not a lot of characters about [TS]

  a lot of complexity a lot of world [TS]

  building and it just it just got it got [TS]

  really frustrated after a while like I [TS]

  felt I felt I can give foundation to [TS]

  pass because it was written like 60 [TS]

  years ago but as a modern novel it felt [TS]

  like these were the characters were not [TS]

  really part of the of of the point here [TS]

  it was really just let me download more [TS]

  of this world like it was like somebody [TS]

  was telling me about this dream they had [TS]

  about wouldn't it be cool if the galaxy [TS]

  had these people these aliens in it and [TS]

  you know [TS]

  no it wouldn't be cool I don't want to [TS]

  hear about you and as someone who loves [TS]

  the foundation trilogy I did not like [TS]

  this book at all [TS]

  yeah i like the foundation trilogy but [TS]

  you see what I mean about you know in by [TS]

  modern standards foundation doesn't have [TS]

  a lot of like really great characters [TS]

  who you you understand their motivation [TS]

  it feels it feels more or or like the [TS]

  doc smith book something like that it [TS]

  feels more you know which I think was [TS]

  maybe the point why why some people [TS]

  nominated it is it feels me feels pulpy [TS]

  and old school but as I think we said [TS]

  about something else in the in the [TS]

  nebula conversation you know the the [TS]

  standards are our greater now than they [TS]

  were 60 years ago and I we expect more [TS]

  of our novels and from dark between the [TS]

  stars i just got just like just a more [TS]

  another pile of of of stuff just an [TS]

  endless pile of of new stuff that I [TS]

  didn't care about and I mean the [TS]

  foundation books were not originally [TS]

  written as novels I mean they were put [TS]

  together from a series of stories that [TS]

  he published over several years in the [TS]

  different magazines and so there they [TS]

  have this really weird that they're not [TS]

  structured like novels they're just odd [TS]

  right where is this you know presumably [TS]

  you have an editor presumably you have [TS]

  someone saying by the way [TS]

  this should be a book and it should be [TS]

  shorter and stuff should happen right [TS]

  um yeah yeah I i will say that i [TS]

  actually enjoyed this one I'm not going [TS]

  to say that it was it was good certainly [TS]

  not in the way that a novel isn't David [TS]

  you actually just nailed it because i [TS]

  felt like i was reading you know an [TS]

  old-fashioned see realized work that was [TS]

  just published week by week in a [TS]

  magazine or newspaper and I actually [TS]

  didn't end up reading it sort of as a [TS]

  novel I i was busy doing a whole bunch [TS]

  of other things so i would read a [TS]

  chapter and then go do something else [TS]

  and then come back and read a chapter [TS]

  and you know there are over a hundred [TS]

  chapters in this thing so it took me [TS]

  awhile and spread it out and I think [TS]

  that vastly improved the reading [TS]

  experience if I would have just sat down [TS]

  and kept reading reading I think the [TS]

  things that annoyed me and there are [TS]

  plenty of things that annoyed me the [TS]

  things that annoyed me would have would [TS]

  have annoyed me much much more [TS]

  so I mean I would never ever have put [TS]

  this on a ballot to win any kind of [TS]

  award but just for for something to do [TS]

  something to keep me busy for a good [TS]

  chunk of time and just like it occupy my [TS]

  mind in between doing other things [TS]

  without without challenging it very much [TS]

  I was I was fine with that i was i [TS]

  enjoyed the process of reading it ok but [TS]

  i just i would get pulled out of it [TS]

  every now and then just because like I [TS]

  said really explaining who the [TS]

  characters are every time we see them [TS]

  like ok if you are explaining we know [TS]

  what Zoe's motivation is every time we [TS]

  see her [TS]

  that means you recognize that there are [TS]

  enough characters that people are going [TS]

  to forget by the time they come back to [TS]

  it that's that should be a sign that you [TS]

  should do something about that perhaps [TS]

  you know I think that's also that there [TS]

  there seems to be this trend I've [TS]

  noticed in reality shows to where you [TS]

  have to have you you end up seeing the [TS]

  same clips and scenes and quotes about [TS]

  five times and a half hour episode of [TS]

  something because apparently we don't [TS]

  have the attention span or ability to [TS]

  remember more than you know five minutes [TS]

  the flashback to something that happened [TS]

  in the same episode of a TV show was [TS]

  like right i do I did was watching mad [TS]

  and what I mean you're watching this [TS]

  this is the kind of thing that yeah I [TS]

  probably probably would have enjoyed it [TS]

  back when I was you know 15 and I didn't [TS]

  have a lot of stuff just occupy my time [TS]

  you know but now I have children I have [TS]

  a house to take care of I have things to [TS]

  write and make and do and you know I got [TS]

  to a point where I said life is too [TS]

  short [TS]

  I just don't care and I mean I I got [TS]

  through his last days of Krypton novel [TS]

  which is very similar its it if you like [TS]

  reiterating huge Oriole is every time [TS]

  you see him because who the hell is [TS]

  jerrell you know then yes and and [TS]

  talking about ideas and and then pulpy [TS]

  things that happen and have you also [TS]

  also there are there just ticks as haha [TS]

  yes the the tix that for me I've always [TS]

  had a problem with novels that do the or [TS]

  writing in general that does the [TS]

  descriptive download and literally there [TS]

  every time I character gets introduced a [TS]

  bell goes off and there's a paragraph of [TS]

  description some of which really doesn't [TS]

  make any sense but there's always [TS]

  detailed description so you get the tom [TS]

  was a stall striking man with dark skin [TS]

  and a lean physique his sinewy muscles [TS]

  were all in all the right places rap [TS]

  like mono fiber cables around his bones [TS]

  had a long face with prominent [TS]

  cheekbones and bright eyes a [TS]

  form-fitting polymer suit clung to him [TS]

  like a reinforced skin [TS]

  his voice was rich and deep as if he had [TS]

  taken Shakespearean training but this [TS]

  man did not look like an actor and this [TS]

  that happens for every single character [TS]

  engine idle again like 10 pages later [TS]

  and I'm just I'm just not a fan of that [TS]

  i would much rather discover who these [TS]

  people are as we go instead of habit [TS]

  have that the big the big download but [TS]

  so i I just I couldn't I couldn't do it [TS]

  i mean i was complaining on twitter [TS]

  about it and Scott yes as i was reading [TS]

  is not to mention explaining what [TS]

  happened in the past I felt like the the [TS]

  exposition was very clunky and a lot of [TS]

  places we had characters who both knew [TS]

  exactly what was going on talking to [TS]

  each other [TS]

  explaining something that the other [TS]

  person already knows as you already know [TS]

  biggest pet peeve and then every once in [TS]

  a while we get you know I appreciated [TS]

  the fact that a decent number of these [TS]

  characters were women and some in [TS]

  positions of power and like that is [TS]

  always something that I really [TS]

  appreciate so so I like to that but then [TS]

  every once in a while one of these very [TS]

  very subtly sexist things would creep in [TS]

  like [TS]

  you know how one of the characters [TS]

  didn't want to be one of those [TS]

  professional women who couldn't balance [TS]

  family matters with business assess [TS]

  ities this is so far in the future i [TS]

  hate the idea that that's still a thing [TS]

  that we have to to fight against her or [TS]

  maybe the fact that the female voice [TS]

  copies the computers a sound matronly [TS]

  and protective while the male 1 sound [TS]

  more erudite and professorial like that [TS]

  kind of stuff just gets my backup [TS]

  yeah well Scott you you didn't make it [TS]

  all the way through right i do I did I [TS]

  regret it did enjoy it's why I'm a [TS]

  completist so I had to finish it and and [TS]

  and i will never get that time back [TS]

  although i can understand how someone [TS]

  would like this book I just thought it [TS]

  was awful i just i just thought they've [TS]

  got to be better options in this kind of [TS]

  in this kind of story then yeah then [TS]

  this and I think that it was just people [TS]

  that some people were upset or maybe not [TS]

  upset but thought that kevin j anderson [TS]

  has written so much stuff and he's never [TS]

  been nominated for Hugo so clearly he [TS]

  deserves to be nominated one but he [TS]

  doesn't and that's okay all right it [TS]

  should be you know quality instead of [TS]

  quantity and I mean it he writes many [TS]

  books many people buy them and and [TS]

  that's the that's his award all the [TS]

  money he makes from the books he doesn't [TS]

  actually need a huge well now you can [TS]

  see he's been nominated for you go [TS]

  I let's move on to the Goblin Emperor by [TS]

  Catherine Addison this was another one [TS]

  of those nebula nominees so Scott and I [TS]

  have talked about it a little bit Eric I [TS]

  did you read this one I did what do you [TS]

  think [TS]

  oh my god I loved this book so much it [TS]

  kind of took me by surprise i didn't [TS]

  know what to expect from it and I found [TS]

  myself just completely wrapped up in it [TS]

  I mean it grabbed me from like almost [TS]

  moment one and i say almost because it [TS]

  took me awhile to get used to the [TS]

  language yeah there's so many proper [TS]

  names that sounds vaguely Hungarian and [TS]

  our darkest hours and will to not only [TS]

  enough that that kind of threw me out [TS]

  but it turns out that Dashon Duke i [TS]

  believe it was Sean on the nebula [TS]

  episode was so thrown off by the das [TS]

  thousand all that [TS]

  he ended up just liking it but it turns [TS]

  out if you stick with it you discover [TS]

  that that is a contextual q got the [TS]

  formality of the language but you have [TS]

  to you have to figure it out to get [TS]

  there [TS]

  mm so I mean yeah because you know that [TS]

  that sort of thing flows for me just [TS]

  fine in Shakespeare but here you know [TS]

  it's it's only when they're speaking [TS]

  aloud and it depends on who they're [TS]

  speaking to you as a character so I did [TS]

  appreciate that in their heads no matter [TS]

  what they always used a much more sort [TS]

  of modern pattern of speech [TS]

  oh but so for me I think it was more the [TS]

  back-and-forth that took adjusting to [TS]

  figuring out when it was when it was [TS]

  happening and why and that sort of thing [TS]

  but in the end I just completely adored [TS]

  the book when it was over I wanted it to [TS]

  be not over [TS]

  I just I kept catching myself looking [TS]

  forward to the next time I could go back [TS]

  to reading it and pick it up and then I [TS]

  would remember that I was done with it [TS]

  and that realization was just like a [TS]

  dash of cold water on my soul I was so [TS]

  upset you know when I when i'm finished [TS]

  i looked up to see surely as a fantasy [TS]

  novel like all fantasy novels are [TS]

  contractually obligated to be it is part [TS]

  of a long-running series of books that [TS]

  are planned and i found an article where [TS]

  she said no it's a standalone I'm never [TS]

  gonna probably never going to revisit [TS]

  those characters of that universe and I [TS]

  was my response with your little take my [TS]

  money [TS]

  yeah because my kids for once you wanted [TS]

  to do David do you read it [TS]

  yeah thoughts this this was one that I [TS]

  think I saw a reference to a quite a [TS]

  while ago and or maybe you had made a [TS]

  reference to it online and I said you [TS]

  know how is that you said that's good [TS]

  and and so when it popped up on here so [TS]

  all right and I mean I've I again I've [TS]

  burnt out on fantasy a little bit in [TS]

  recent years but i really enjoyed the [TS]

  world-building I enjoyed the you know [TS]

  again having to figure out the language [TS]

  in the cues and and sort of focus on [TS]

  that and and with the whole all the the [TS]

  political things and then in the bridge [TS]

  building and it kind of made me think of [TS]

  it as as like a fantasy version of parks [TS]

  and recreation [TS]

  oddly enough the sort of the procedure [TS]

  of going through and making this happen [TS]

  so I mean let's let's let's say it a [TS]

  fantasy novel when you hear about a [TS]

  fantasy novel the government Emperor [TS]

  what I think most people would conjure [TS]

  up is sort of a generic high fantasy [TS]

  epic where the leader of a goblin you [TS]

  know a goblin people has to I don't know [TS]

  there's a quest they have to Aurora's [TS]

  people have to defeat the evil goblins [TS]

  Emperor it's something like you'd expect [TS]

  what I did not expect is that it is a [TS]

  character study coming of age story and [TS]

  about politics and finding your way in a [TS]

  complicated you know it basically like a [TS]

  like the royalty or the the aristocracy [TS]

  and how you fit into the into that [TS]

  complicated world and that's what the [TS]

  Goblin temper is it is not at all when I [TS]

  tell people the name of the book they're [TS]

  like okay I'm gonna know it's you [TS]

  picture isn't anything is not what you [TS]

  think that goblins like that [TS]

  no these are just it's just racism is [TS]

  really that like goblins goblins because [TS]

  of the elves and goblins water goblins [TS]

  as far as i can tell goblins are else [TS]

  with dark skin that's what they aren't [TS]

  you captain [TS]

  that's it so that's a fascinating little [TS]

  angle is the is the sort of race [TS]

  relations and this is the Goblin Emperor [TS]

  so it is the you know I don't have the [TS]

  sad puppies are angry because it's the [TS]

  first black emperor and you know or or [TS]

  much he's the Obama of the elf Kingdom [TS]

  but but uh that's that's an element it [TS]

  but really in its core it's about a [TS]

  young person who is very smart but not [TS]

  educated and has to figure out his place [TS]

  in the world and it i'm in i agree with [TS]

  every so often I come in one of those [TS]

  books and I think this is the book i'm [TS]

  going to be recommending the people for [TS]

  the next year like among others was a [TS]

  good example of that and the genie and [TS]

  golem actually and I and when I read [TS]

  goblin Emperor I thought to myself up [TS]

  this is it this is this is that one that [TS]

  I'm going to just recommend to everybody [TS]

  for the next year because i liked it so [TS]

  much [TS]

  yeah this is another book that had [TS]

  something that I'm a complete sucker for [TS]

  and that is when [TS]

  main character are point-of-view [TS]

  character is discovering and figuring [TS]

  out the world right along with me as [TS]

  later i love that sort of thing and not [TS]

  only is he discovering the world but [TS]

  like you said discovering his place in [TS]

  it he's he comes into this world [TS]

  basically at the top of it and has to [TS]

  figure it out from the top down which is [TS]

  really interesting sort of spin to put [TS]

  on it [TS]

  Scott you have you can have reminded you [TS]

  of the government / and I do have a very [TS]

  clear recollection of the he's a bridge [TS]

  model of the bridge that scene where [TS]

  he's fiddling with the model is [TS]

  delightful i also remember the scene [TS]

  where he's abducted and he is what his [TS]

  cousin his his what is the the widow of [TS]

  his father who isn't actually his mother [TS]

  but was you know she has mother died [TS]

  wants her son to become the Emperor and [TS]

  not this goblin rather they abduct him [TS]

  there's an assassination attempt yeah [TS]

  and he's like you know his cousin her [TS]

  comes down and it's like what's going on [TS]

  and a little the Goblin Emperor's like [TS]

  well you can kill me and you will become [TS]

  emperor but trust me it's not all that [TS]

  great people want to kill you like this [TS]

  for instance right and I just thought [TS]

  that was a fantastic seed I really love [TS]

  this book [TS]

  I think it's my favorite book of the the [TS]

  nominees and I was going to say that it [TS]

  was the kudos to the heroes for alerting [TS]

  me to it but actually the nebulas army [TS]

  to it so i can't even give that to the [TS]

  Hugo's but well that's just timing [TS]

  yep but the Liberals get the full credit [TS]

  rating represents the air but you can't [TS]

  hold it against the he goes for like [TS]

  holding out on you but I'm glad I'm glad [TS]

  i was worried what with all the the [TS]

  hoopla around the he goes this year that [TS]

  it would not end up on the ballot for [TS]

  whatever reason but i'm very glad that [TS]

  it is [TS]

  yeah it's great it's also nominated for [TS]

  the world fantasy award and it won the [TS]

  locus award for best fantasy novel but [TS]

  although it didn't win the nebula it it [TS]

  is 11 major work [TS]

  what did win the left nebula i forgot [TS]

  the book that I didn't like [TS]

  the book and I like what didn't think [TS]

  should win the award I was it an [TS]

  isolation [TS]

  yes relation which scott doesn't [TS]

  recommend as a book to put say winner of [TS]

  the nebula word on the cover because [TS]

  people read it go what is that [TS]

  yes but i think it should have one and I [TS]

  was glad it did with a very well-written [TS]

  book that I didn't like [TS]

  gotcha I was not surprised so it's kind [TS]

  of the other minority dark opposite of [TS]

  the dark between the stars and then not [TS]

  particularly well written book that I [TS]

  did kind of like yeah sort of [TS]

  sure it's much shorter oh man does have [TS]

  not going for it [TS]

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  guard academy and it's other classes [TS]

  this is such a cool idea and I really [TS]

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  sponsor the incomparable thank you very [TS]

  much [TS]

  let's move on and talk about skin game [TS]

  by jim butcher this is the latest [TS]

  installment I don't even know how many [TS]

  there have been in the Harry Dresden 55 [TS]

  serious book 11 book 18 I don't even [TS]

  know the dresden files books by jim [TS]

  butcher this so I i have an admission [TS]

  here i only read the hugo and this is [TS]

  this is a or orbit and rock books his [TS]

  publishers fault i only read the PDF [TS]

  that they sent for the hugo packet I [TS]

  didn't is an excerpt it was the first 90 [TS]

  pages [TS]

  mm so I what I'll say is I've read some [TS]

  jim butcher harry dresden books and [TS]

  thought they were ok I thought this one [TS]

  was fine i wouldn't say no to reading [TS]

  the rest of it except that I i would [TS]

  rather read it in the sequence in which [TS]

  was intended i jumped way ahead by [TS]

  reading the first many pages of skin [TS]

  game [TS]

  but it's fine i I never at any point got [TS]

  that feeling of like oh man [TS]

  now this is some award-winning material [TS]

  and maybe that you know again you could [TS]

  argue maybe out my standards are i'm [TS]

  looking for something like super not [TS]

  necessarily just good but like something [TS]

  I feel has something important to say or [TS]

  something like that and maybe that is [TS]

  one of the sources of people grumbling [TS]

  about what gets nominated for Hugo's i [TS]

  thought was fine i just again I i don't [TS]

  think i would ever say man I gotta run [TS]

  wherewhere things being nominated so i [TS]

  could run there and nominate this but I [TS]

  I you know I think butcher is a fine [TS]

  writer and resident is an interesting [TS]

  character and he's built this [TS]

  interesting magical world and you know I [TS]

  after 90 pages of that I was certainly [TS]

  intrigued to keep reading it and again [TS]

  if I weren't like six books or eight [TS]

  books behind i probably would have [TS]

  picked up on reading it but instead i [TS]

  just decided to stop what everybody else [TS]

  think David you read this one [TS]

  yeah well I read the 90 page and the X [TS]

  here at the same page as me [TS]

  alright guys well I read one of the [TS]

  earlier books years and years ago [TS]

  because people like all you should be [TS]

  this you'll enjoy it and I didn't and I [TS]

  mean it's fine again if I were 18 and [TS]

  just kind of picking science fiction [TS]

  books off the shelf at random because I [TS]

  was curious about them i might get into [TS]

  it I mean I Redbird several xanthe [TS]

  novels for crying out loud but here [TS]

  well i'll also say unlike at the kevin j [TS]

  anderson book which I just couldn't get [TS]

  through and I just abandoned I would [TS]

  have if I had to hold jim butcher book i [TS]

  would read it after would not have been [TS]

  a problem sorry I mean it'sit's good [TS]

  popcorn writing it's you know I mean I [TS]

  stive tons of murder mystery novels and [TS]

  tons of you know all kinds of series [TS]

  that I would never nominated for [TS]

  anything but I'll read them for fun I [TS]

  wouldn't call it a guilty pleasure [TS]

  because i still like them and I still [TS]

  say hey if you like mystery series [TS]

  read this if you like magical p is read [TS]

  this [TS]

  no I think that would nominated for [TS]

  anything [TS]

  now I don't know Erica and Scotty did [TS]

  remind me last year one of the nominees [TS]

  for in this category was warbound [TS]

  by Larry Correia mom and I was thinking [TS]

  about that while I was reading skin game [TS]

  because what my thoughts were were [TS]

  essentially well this is way better than [TS]

  that sound is not not was not it was [TS]

  competently written and I read the whole [TS]

  thing but in and the genres aren't quite [TS]

  the same here but there are these are [TS]

  both you know said poppy nominees and [TS]

  skin games better than that we were [TS]

  really lukewarm about warbound and i can [TS]

  i can give you a much greater [TS]

  endorsement 22 Jim butchers books [TS]

  I you know I think it's I think it's [TS]

  much much better than then that book [TS]

  that got nominated last year i think [TS]

  it's fine [TS]

  yeah I actually gave up on the mountain [TS]

  book last year not because it was badly [TS]

  written but just because I didn't like [TS]

  basically the treatment of women and it [TS]

  just made me uncomfortable enough that I [TS]

  I said well you know it's kind of [TS]

  interesting but but not interesting [TS]

  enough [TS]

  whereas here in skin game i had some of [TS]

  the same issues but to a much much much [TS]

  much smaller degree and I completely [TS]

  agree with everything you said it's it [TS]

  is interesting i mean it i just i i knew [TS]

  that actually looked it up it's the 15th [TS]

  book in the series wow wow ok and I'm [TS]

  like 13 behind ya and I honestly didn't [TS]

  even realize that that this was part of [TS]

  that series i just saw the name and I [TS]

  didn't actually know the author's name [TS]

  to two related to the dresden files even [TS]

  though i'd heard of like the TV show and [TS]

  it was based on books so I was just [TS]

  taking it as if it were a novel on its [TS]

  own [TS]

  I very quickly realized that it wasn't [TS]

  and that i was was jumping in there but [TS]

  I mean it started out quickly enough it [TS]

  was interesting and fun and it really [TS]

  felt more like a ride than a serious [TS]

  book and that's not a bad thing I [TS]

  enjoyed it but it's not all those p I [TS]

  kind of tropes he's like yes between a [TS]

  rock and a hard place now he's between a [TS]

  rock and a hard place because there's [TS]

  like a demon in his brain or something [TS]

  but in the end butcher isn't it is in [TS]

  this difficult situation where he has to [TS]

  do he has to work with somebody who's [TS]

  really bad and maybe betray them but he [TS]

  has to work with them because he's kind [TS]

  of indebted to somebody else who is the [TS]

  queen of fall faeries or something but [TS]

  you know because reasons because magical [TS]

  reasons and he's gotta work he's got a [TS]

  simple a team and some of them are [TS]

  people who [TS]

  what he's working with and some of the [TS]

  Martins enemies and that's a nice little [TS]

  fun that's a fun set up that and that's [TS]

  a perfectly fun kind of you know set up [TS]

  for a magical detective novel which is [TS]

  basically what this is [TS]

  yeah and I think despite the fact that [TS]

  it is the 15th book in a series i felt [TS]

  like the the explanation of what came [TS]

  before was it was doled out to a certain [TS]

  Italian little dribs and drabs [TS]

  international appropriate to what was [TS]

  going on as opposed to the the dumps [TS]

  that we got in the in the dark between [TS]

  the stars i think that the main [TS]

  character while I learned to sort of [TS]

  like him more by the end of the book at [TS]

  first he's not the most likable guy ever [TS]

  but even that sort of falls into the [TS]

  mystery story tropes you get your film [TS]

  noir detectives who are usually not well [TS]

  particularly likeable guy was right and [TS]

  he seemed to me he seemed a little bit [TS]

  generic and a little bit sexist you know [TS]

  like you know if he gets an earring at [TS]

  one point in the book and he's he wants [TS]

  to make sure that it's in the correct [TS]

  ear he refers to his his female friends [TS]

  shoes as man shoes like just just little [TS]

  things not a huge deal but enough to [TS]

  take me out of the story a little bit [TS]

  and you know I don't have a problem with [TS]

  including characters who are sexist in [TS]

  stories because they exist so you know [TS]

  they should be represented [TS]

  although they're usually [TS]

  over-represented but when that character [TS]

  is the one whose head were carried [TS]

  around in throughout the whole book it [TS]

  gets a little bit here to me but when it [TS]

  came down to it that there wasn't enough [TS]

  of that to bother me and I quite enjoyed [TS]

  the turns of phrase in this book you [TS]

  know the butcher is good with a quippy [TS]

  you know he describes the the movement [TS]

  of something by saying it's cuddle [TS]

  humped or k mag lumping towards him that [TS]

  light full you know he had some nice [TS]

  zuma is well-liked lifted my left arm [TS]

  along with my will that sort of thing is [TS]

  you know such a such a sparkly little [TS]

  thing for me that I quite enjoyed [TS]

  reading this book [TS]

  Scott what do you think i read the whole [TS]

  thing so that's going i have a problem [TS]

  with this genre in general [TS]

  I don't know what is called like urban [TS]

  fantasy i guess yeah in that I feel I [TS]

  mean it's fun and I think it was it was [TS]

  a enjoyed it i read very quickly I [TS]

  didn't hi i agree with you Erykah that [TS]

  he did a much better job of i had not [TS]

  read any of the dresden books before and [TS]

  I didn't feel lost like I felt in the [TS]

  Anderson book I well I had kind of new [TS]

  harry dresden was but I didn't know any [TS]

  of this stuff clearly big important [TS]

  things that happened at least in the [TS]

  previous book that shaped this book but [TS]

  he did a good job of kind of recapping [TS]

  that and I didn't feel like you know it [TS]

  was like here's the cliff notes of the [TS]

  previous novel and here's jump in my [TS]

  problem with this genre in general is I [TS]

  always feel like something awesome [TS]

  happens and then in the next chapter [TS]

  it's like well i have to one up that so [TS]

  something even more also happens and [TS]

  then it's just like highly on and on and [TS]

  on and I just get exhausted by the end [TS]

  of it one of the like one of the year i [TS]

  read very little urban fantasy but I do [TS]

  read a series of the iron rude which is [TS]

  by what's that kevin hearne I think his [TS]

  name's and these are not award-winning [TS]

  books but there a lot of fun and he has [TS]

  you know the gods come and everybody's [TS]

  like killing God left and right and then [TS]

  the more gods are killed that it's just [TS]

  it gets exhausting but it's fun [TS]

  do I think that this should be nominated [TS]

  for Hugo well it is so you know I can't [TS]

  fight reality but I don't think it [TS]

  should be on the list but yeah yeah I'm [TS]

  with you there as much as I enjoyed it [TS]

  it is not [TS]

  yeah I also would not have run two [TS]

  places to a denominator we have to get [TS]

  to the nominated place wherever that is [TS]

  the play might pick up the next book in [TS]

  the series but but yeah yeah okay let's [TS]

  move on to the three-body problem by [TS]

  c-section Lou China's foremost ? science [TS]

  fiction writer translated by ken loo who [TS]

  is a whore award-winning [TS]

  english-language science fiction writer [TS]

  in his own right again not nebula [TS]

  nominated Scott my have talked about it [TS]

  before Erica would you think of this one [TS]

  I enjoyed it i wanted to give ken loo a [TS]

  huge high five for all of the awesome [TS]

  footnotes [TS]

  because you know it starts out talking [TS]

  about chinese history that I absolutely [TS]

  never came into contact with in any of [TS]

  my schooling so it was it was very [TS]

  helpful to to have you know judicious [TS]

  use of footnotes so that I I i learned [TS]

  to the things that I needed to know for [TS]

  to make the context of this story makes [TS]

  sense i thought it was i was intrigued [TS]

  by the mystery of it I thought it was [TS]

  elegant the physics there's a lot of [TS]

  physics and they went over my head and [TS]

  made it feel a little bit dry [TS]

  I i look at this book as more like a [TS]

  piece of art than any of the rest of [TS]

  them but as far as pure enjoyment factor [TS]

  i didn't get as much out of it because [TS]

  it did feel good it felt like something [TS]

  that should be hanging on a wall and [TS]

  museum as opposed to something i'm [TS]

  getting dirty with and really getting [TS]

  into I didn't feel enveloped in the [TS]

  world the way I did some of the others [TS]

  David I i really enjoyed the perpetrator [TS]

  was no real hard sci-fi novel mom and I [TS]

  mean that that to me one of the first [TS]

  thing I think of when I think he goes is [TS]

  hard sci-fi many other all these other [TS]

  things too but this just this this felt [TS]

  like a book that i'm going to read again [TS]

  because I do want to serve get the [TS]

  physics of it and I want to believe it's [TS]

  one of those books where I think I'll [TS]

  enjoy it even more knowing where it's [TS]

  going so i can pay attention in the [TS]

  beginning part like i'm not going to [TS]

  read a dresden files novel because it's [TS]

  easy to grasp it didn't quite pull me in [TS]

  the way ancillary sword did and I mean [TS]

  part of that again now that you had the [TS]

  grounding of ancillary justice to pull [TS]

  you in there but this this might be my [TS]

  second favorite [TS]

  I mean as much as I enjoyed the Goblin [TS]

  Emperor again you know just I I think [TS]

  sci-fi when I think you goes and I like [TS]

  it with with an asterisk let's put it [TS]

  that way because because i think i'm [TS]

  gonna go back and reread it now Scott [TS]

  you and I talked about this in the [TS]

  nebula podcast and one of the things [TS]

  that I think we we agreed on is one of [TS]

  the nice things about this book is that [TS]

  yet it it exposes you to some some [TS]

  things that that you you [TS]

  aren't usually exposed to and it makes [TS]

  you feel like a little bit of an [TS]

  outsider and you have to figure out [TS]

  what's going on and being an American [TS]

  reading a Chinese novel and having to [TS]

  you know know a lot more about the [TS]

  cultural revolution and things like that [TS]

  it's that that is a one of the joys I [TS]

  think of reading science fiction in [TS]

  general is just is thinking in a [TS]

  different way and and putting yourself [TS]

  in a kind of an uncomfortable spot and I [TS]

  think this book does that [TS]

  yes and I think we also agree that it [TS]

  feels like maybe it's from a slightly [TS]

  different areas of the other hired [TS]

  science fiction and nothing there's [TS]

  nothing wrong with that at all i think [TS]

  it's a great book it is probably my [TS]

  second favorite book of this list and I [TS]

  look forward to reading the rest of the [TS]

  trilogy it struck me as like a seventies [TS]

  almost kind of yeah [TS]

  Blackie big idea the gods themselves [TS]

  kind of thing [TS]

  it feels very arthur c clarke to me but [TS]

  but like good arthur c clarke yeah I [TS]

  think out of out of all the books [TS]

  nominated this is the only one that [TS]

  really made me feel like I was [TS]

  stretching and it made me grow just to [TS]

  read it so while I wouldn't say it's my [TS]

  second favorite over the books but i [TS]

  think i would rank it second when i'm [TS]

  doing the voting because I feel like [TS]

  like you said this is one of the best [TS]

  things about science fiction is the fact [TS]

  that it puts you into a new place into a [TS]

  new head space and and i like that i did [TS]

  that if it if it could have done that [TS]

  and also wrapped me up in the world the [TS]

  way say the Goblin Emperor did then it [TS]

  would be you know number one with a [TS]

  bullet but in this case it's a it was it [TS]

  was it was beautiful but cold like me [TS]

  I'd so this book has a little bit about [TS]

  I don't want to say learning curve but [TS]

  because it does have a learning curve [TS]

  but also i wanted to say I I came around [TS]

  on it i was i was down on it a hundred [TS]

  pages and hundred fifty pages and i [TS]

  thought that that some of the characters [TS]

  were just ridiculously kind of broad and [TS]

  other characters were non you know [TS]

  non-persons just completely not there [TS]

  and that the premise of the the kind of [TS]

  virtual reality game was dumb and then I [TS]

  waited another hundred fifty pages and [TS]

  then I i turned around on it and said oh [TS]

  no ok like someone [TS]

  premise stuff like a guy sees numbers [TS]

  counting down in his vision and I'm [TS]

  thinking you know this is ridiculous [TS]

  they're never gonna figure they're never [TS]

  going to address this it's never going [TS]

  to be explained why this happens this is [TS]

  just something to make us feel creepy [TS]

  and is absolutely explained in hook and [TS]

  so I I came around a lot of those a lot [TS]

  of those issues that turned around on in [TS]

  fact the cop who I didn't like at all [TS]

  because I thought he was such a [TS]

  ridiculous character at the beginning I [TS]

  ended up loving that streetwise cop who [TS]

  kind of knows you know him yeah he knows [TS]

  what's going on the street man i ended [TS]

  up really liking him by the end so it [TS]

  was it was a funny turn where I really [TS]

  went from kind of not liking it and [TS]

  thinking oh geez I'm gonna have to read [TS]

  this whole thing to end up really [TS]

  changing my tune by the middle of it [TS]

  really not by the end but by the middle [TS]

  yeah it takes a little while to get [TS]

  going but once once it does it just [TS]

  takes off and I mean it was check out [TS]

  this guy [TS]

  counting down numbers yeah sure but it [TS]

  just seemed like whether things like [TS]

  wouldn't it be weird and then it never [TS]

  gets explained but it totally got [TS]

  explained so that was actually kind of a [TS]

  nice moment and that that's the kind of [TS]

  thing I like you know the pop the [TS]

  popcorn writing doesn't have that no no [TS]

  and you know I i mentioned that the [TS]

  physics in the math and stuff was over [TS]

  my head and that is true but it wasn't [TS]

  so over my head that I didn't understand [TS]

  what was going on the book he did a [TS]

  really nice job of balancing that so [TS]

  that I I felt like even though I didn't [TS]

  understand the math I understood the way [TS]

  that the math was being applied to the [TS]

  world in this story so uh let's let's go [TS]

  over just before we move on we talked [TS]

  about ranking are you going to rank [TS]

  these David um yeah I'm torn between [TS]

  three body problem and ancillary sword [TS]

  but it will be one of those two and then [TS]

  goblin Emperor alright and then no word [TS]

  and then no one [TS]

  Erica I yeah I'm definitely putting the [TS]

  Goblin Emperor first and then and then [TS]

  three body problem and then probably [TS]

  ancillary sword that made that might [TS]

  make the no award Barker might not have [TS]

  to think about it [TS]

  scott i will put the Goblin Empire [TS]

  Emperor [TS]

  three body problem ancillary sword skin [TS]

  games i did enjoy it then no award I i'm [TS]

  doing what Scott's doing almost got [TS]

  remember all the way who all right so uh [TS]

  let's talk about the short fiction [TS]

  categories [TS]

  uh I don't know how long this will take [TS]

  if you would like to talk about [TS]

  particularly things in short fiction [TS]

  category a place read almost everything [TS]

  so I'm ready [TS]

  oh ok i am I read some of it i didn't [TS]

  find a single thing that I liked ya read [TS]

  I read all the short stories I read one [TS]

  and one-quarter of the novel it's a [TS]

  house it's championship batak that is [TS]

  the quarters at everything yes yes I [TS]

  found it interesting and I like military [TS]

  science fiction i know that i think that [TS]

  there are certain aspects of the [TS]

  science-fiction community I think that [TS]

  military science fiction doesn't get the [TS]

  respect that it deserves and that may [TS]

  explain why there's so much military [TS]

  science fiction on this list but there [TS]

  is a difference between good military [TS]

  science fiction and bad military science [TS]

  fiction and i felt like i was reading a [TS]

  lot of bad military science yeah yeah I [TS]

  thought big boys don't cry which that's [TS]

  the one that's about that like sentient [TS]

  tank right I decibel the 1i gave up on [TS]

  that was that was that was really bad a [TS]

  championship to talk i I didn't like it [TS]

  all and gave up on and then was again [TS]

  one of these things that I felt very old [TS]

  school and had a whole big list of lots [TS]

  of complicated alien races and [TS]

  characters that I didn't really I felt [TS]

  that again like I had been dropped down [TS]

  in a series that have been going on for [TS]

  20 years and had lots of detail and yet [TS]

  was all very like thirties cereal kind [TS]

  of stuff with villains and element like [TS]

  many of these felt like maybe the [TS]

  novelettes and novellas felt like a [TS]

  chapter in something that was [TS]

  much much larger and not in the way that [TS]

  a not like an installment of a novel as [TS]

  part of a series does because when you [TS]

  get that usually have a very discreet [TS]

  beginning middle and end maybe not the [TS]

  dark between the stars but you can you [TS]

  feel like you've had a story that fits [TS]

  into bigger stories and i did not get [TS]

  that feeling with a lot of these novels [TS]

  novellas and novelettes because it [TS]

  really just felt like the next page [TS]

  after [TS]

  after [TS]

  ended would have completely flown on it [TS]

  wouldn't have been starting anything new [TS]

  did have a moment when i started reading [TS]

  champion ship [TS]

  haha if I hope involved Klingons I [TS]

  didn't think there was any Klingon zone [TS]

  where I thought is this file missing [TS]

  something did i start in the wrong place [TS]

  i don't really get what's going on here [TS]

  it felt like there's a lot more to the [TS]

  story that particular interest in [TS]

  reading more of it but i felt like i was [TS]

  only getting part of yeah there's that [TS]

  that particular one also had one theme [TS]

  that i found that was kind of careening [TS]

  through all of these a sad puppy or [TS]

  rather rapid puppy entries on the ballot [TS]

  was a fear of transhumanism there's like [TS]

  just about every one of these stories no [TS]

  matter which author was by there was [TS]

  something in here that was you know [TS]

  where humanity is the best in it and the [TS]

  farther we move away from good old [TS]

  humans is you know things are going to [TS]

  go bad and things are going to get scary [TS]

  and and you know robots and artificial [TS]

  intelligence are the the way of the [TS]

  devil sometimes literally so yeah I [TS]

  thought it was interesting that that one [TS]

  of the reasons that that a lot of these [TS]

  works were put forward is because in the [TS]

  past few years apparently you know that [TS]

  the social justice folks have put have [TS]

  put message fiction on the ballot and I [TS]

  think message fiction doesn't belong [TS]

  there and then i'm reading all these and [TS]

  going what do you think this is this [TS]

  message fiction it's a different message [TS]

  yeah and it's I mean star trek his [TS]

  message fiction you know but it's good [TS]

  uh and and it doesn't it doesn't always [TS]

  tell the same message sometimes it has [TS]

  different messages its ok so the the one [TS]

  the one short fiction that was not on [TS]

  any of the puppy slates is by a past [TS]

  nominee couple of times including some [TS]

  stuff that I like Thomas old who was it [TS]

  who built who is a dutch and it's [TS]

  translated the day the world world turns [TS]

  upside down and I don't know whether [TS]

  it's it was my bad attitude or whether [TS]

  it was just the general stink wafting [TS]

  wafting from all these categories but i [TS]

  thought it wasn't wasn't any good either [TS]

  and that's from that's from a non yeah I [TS]

  thought that I thought that it was awful [TS]

  see I enjoyed it this is the same same [TS]

  story as the one about when [TS]

  do when they're it rains when you lie [TS]

  it's actually ending story actually have [TS]

  that in my notes and i love that story [TS]

  so much to me this was the one that just [TS]

  seemed to have been written with ease [TS]

  like I flowed through this and I did not [TS]

  want to stop it more than any of the [TS]

  others that actually made me feel things [TS]

  and it wasn't always pleasant things in [TS]

  fact most of it was downright painful [TS]

  but it really really spoke to me and [TS]

  like you said Jason it did remind me [TS]

  especially at the beginning a little bit [TS]

  of the water that falls on you from [TS]

  nowhere [TS]

  yeah that's the end because I it seemed [TS]

  like it was going to be an emotional [TS]

  story that just happens to take place [TS]

  against a backdrop or something strange [TS]

  had happened and it kinda is but I feel [TS]

  like this story more than the other one [TS]

  focused a lot more on the physical [TS]

  aspects of dealing with the world that [TS]

  had literally turned upside down so I I [TS]

  liked that and I also kind of had [TS]

  trouble wrapping my head around it in a [TS]

  good way I i don't know if i would have [TS]

  put it on my own nomination ballot if i [TS]

  would have read it in time I do think [TS]

  it's worthy to be here but yeah I i [TS]

  enjoyed it i just i didn't go quite as [TS]

  gaga over it as i did like save the [TS]

  waterfalls and you from nowhere [TS]

  wow this is the author who wrote the [TS]

  story about the boy was made of glass [TS]

  oh yeah Jason yes that's what their that [TS]

  1i have an outright which I think was [TS]

  probably would have been on the list of [TS]

  the of the various puppies about a bit [TS]

  it's a it's a message trying to thank to [TS]

  but you know yeah yeah I didn't didn't [TS]

  didn't didn't go for me didn't work for [TS]

  me I didn't want to say I found on a [TS]

  spiritual bolt on a spiritual plane [TS]

  interesting if not particularly artful I [TS]

  thought it was kind of an interesting [TS]

  idea of of this strange planet where the [TS]

  concept of death of these aliens is [TS]

  totally different and I i kinda like [TS]

  because that could last year there were [TS]

  there was a bread torgersen story that [TS]

  was similarly about up uh you know some [TS]

  sort of a religious person who is on the [TS]

  station on a military ship around a [TS]

  planet somewhere and I candle i kinda [TS]

  like those ideas of like what is this [TS]

  what is this what is this religious [TS]

  person [TS]

  have to do this this pastor this [TS]

  Reverend what's their their job that [TS]

  they're that they're doing out of the [TS]

  edges of space where where many of the [TS]

  things they've been taught might be [TS]

  called into question so i kind of am a [TS]

  sucker for that I didn't think it was [TS]

  sort of it was short and it got its idea [TS]

  across I don't like i said i don't know [TS]

  if it was particularly artful but I [TS]

  didn't dislike it like I just like so [TS]

  much that i that i read i like the idea [TS]

  of that one although I thought the [TS]

  payoff of basically the chaplain becomes [TS]

  a you know his job is now to segue to [TS]

  Stonehenge so that people can go to [TS]

  heaven seemed kind of like an [TS]

  anticlimactic ending spoiler understand [TS]

  so anything for her if you're honest but [TS]

  your plane i really liked the idea and I [TS]

  felt like he could have written a much [TS]

  deeper mandatory that would've been more [TS]

  satisfied [TS]

  although as my I've always fine well i [TS]

  didn't know i mean obviously I'm aware [TS]

  of the whole sad puppy rabbit puppy [TS]

  thing but i did not know anything that [TS]

  was on the slate and I did not go [TS]

  looking for it because I thought that [TS]

  what color my perceptions and I wanted [TS]

  to judge it based is what it was as a [TS]

  work you put on your black robe got your [TS]

  Apple well no I really believe that and [TS]

  the work should stand on its own right [TS]

  it doesn't matter what the authors [TS]

  intent was or what their political [TS]

  leanings are or where they hang out with [TS]

  hooch or who decided to champion them [TS]

  yeah exactly i don't care about any of [TS]

  that I just want to read something that [TS]

  is good and I thought it was almost good [TS]

  whereas for me i was i was actually ok [TS]

  letting the the way that the story got [TS]

  onto the ballot factor into it for my I [TS]

  kind of wanted that that extra you know [TS]

  if you if somebody's willing to to stand [TS]

  with that crowd then I am willing to [TS]

  hold that against them so that is your [TS]

  right [TS]

  yep i don't know I i think it's fine for [TS]

  for people to say i don't feel right [TS]

  taking this nomination because of how [TS]

  how it happened where there was a block [TS]

  but I i have a hard time holding it [TS]

  against somebody who has you know who [TS]

  didn't didn't advocate for it and gets [TS]

  got picked and has always want to be [TS]

  nominated it's it's it's hard for me to [TS]

  find [TS]

  ultimately i think i agree completely [TS]

  with Scott it really is in the it is in [TS]

  the work speaking which I'll mention [TS]

  another nominated short story totals by [TS]

  Carrie English for about I don't know [TS]

  eight years i published short story [TS]

  magazine on the internet called [TS]

  intertext and what I will say is that's [TS]

  not a story I would have even accepted [TS]

  for text which didn't pay its writers so [TS]

  i think i liked it ok I thought I like [TS]

  the I liked the story at the idea of the [TS]

  story itself more than the writing then [TS]

  it came out sort of like if somebody [TS]

  else had taken that idea and written a [TS]

  story around it i think i would have [TS]

  really liked it [TS]

  yeah I actually read goodnight stars by [TS]

  any ballot because i was i was looking [TS]

  at an old version of what was on the [TS]

  list at first and then I realized that [TS]

  she had asked to have her story removed [TS]

  and I'm kind of glad she did because [TS]

  like it would have broken my heart to [TS]

  feel like I should put it under know [TS]

  works i really liked that story so I'm [TS]

  gonna go and find some more stuff by her [TS]

  all right anything else we want to talk [TS]

  about about the short fiction if you if [TS]

  you read it and you want to have a [TS]

  comment about it now is your chance the [TS]

  parliament of beasts and birds is awful [TS]

  okay maybe that doesn't even begin to [TS]

  cover it [TS]

  I i was just going to say I learned from [TS]

  a cartoon rabbit many years ago if you [TS]

  can't say something nice don't say [TS]

  nothing at all [TS]

  I disagree haha i'm excited for them are [TS]

  sure to be nominated but part of being [TS]

  nominated as people are going to judge [TS]

  your work right and that is part and [TS]

  parcel with it so you John seabright [TS]

  wrote an awful story is that makes no [TS]

  sense [TS]

  he was nominated several times a record [TS]

  number of times several several awful [TS]

  stories [TS]

  oh my god if if the pros in that story [TS]

  was any more purple it would be waving [TS]

  flag and marketing friday which he would [TS]

  hate I'm sure as a yes [TS]

  jhansi right I I you know he got [TS]

  nominated because he has an outspoken [TS]

  Catholic who thinks that homosexuality [TS]

  is a sin and not because he's a good [TS]

  writer so I I knew nothing about him [TS]

  other than I knew he was nominated a [TS]

  record number of times and I think I own [TS]

  one of his books I have read it and [TS]

  reading this short story makes me not [TS]

  want to recreate freaking man is it [TS]

  awful i also read pale red realms of [TS]

  shade which it just is no also not good [TS]

  at it was not as bad [TS]

  not a high bar there but yeah but [TS]

  because of like just after reading those [TS]

  2i I could not bring myself to read any [TS]

  of the other record number of [TS]

  nominations him so that is that is where [TS]

  I i jumped off the ship two nominations [TS]

  your limit [TS]

  yeah it is well when it like that yes [TS]

  all right yep a single samurai like the [TS]

  idea of its I didn't think it was all [TS]

  that great but i thought there were some [TS]

  interesting images if you like a giant [TS]

  monsters and samurai which I do [TS]

  yes the short story will be an enjoyable [TS]

  15 minutes okay and turn coach was [TS]

  obvious i really like i should say i [TS]

  once again I like military science [TS]

  fiction [TS]

  I like a sentient ships of all for it [TS]

  I thought this book this book the short [TS]

  story was trying to tell me a message [TS]

  that was obvious that I disagreed with [TS]

  and that the ending was so playing well [TS]

  I'm turncoat is it's in the title it was [TS]

  predictable boiler is her show [TS]

  that's right boilers for those who have [TS]

  registered not read the short story or [TS]

  seen in style [TS]

  it also so full of cold descriptions and [TS]

  mechanical actions and list of web [TS]

  address and i actually wrote down one of [TS]

  the one of the quotes Admiral help [TS]

  please accept my apologies for the [TS]

  unexpected intrusion [TS]

  my designation is TX 4 5 D 6 280 dash [TS]

  9555 dash 11 III dash BFA seven dash [TS]

  0002 a5 b5 c-51 be as i was reading this [TS]

  one I did think boy Jason will hate this [TS]

  yeah I i am not a fan of the nuts and [TS]

  bolts of the let me tell you about all [TS]

  of the specific ammunition being fired [TS]

  by this gun which big boys don't cry [TS]

  does a lot of and that [TS]

  may not like it turncoat because a lot [TS]

  of it too yeah just not a fan of that [TS]

  not a fan of that which is you know [TS]

  again I think there's some really good [TS]

  military science fiction but the the [TS]

  ones that really are all about the [TS]

  armaments and the hardware and the [TS]

  details of how they work [TS]

  they're made up weapons I just doesn't [TS]

  work for me so I here's here's my bold [TS]

  statement i am going to vote no award in [TS]

  all of the short fiction categories [TS]

  yep i'm gonna put the day the world [TS]

  turned upside down on mine but that's [TS]

  the only alright I i need to read the [TS]

  rest of them before i can make a [TS]

  judgment yeah i will allow read a single [TS]

  samurai to see if I enjoy you might like [TS]

  it [TS]

  monsters and Samurai it's a bit [TS]

  heavy-handed but uh uh but i will not [TS]

  return code because Scott's already told [TS]

  me enough [TS]

  dr. to do that before we run we should [TS]

  go go through some of the more popular [TS]

  categories by which things that people [TS]

  out there who may not read science [TS]

  fiction short stories may have actually [TS]

  read or seen just to see if you guys I [TS]

  don't know if you guys have have have [TS]

  opinions in these but we'll run through [TS]

  them really quickly best graphic story [TS]

  category nominees i will run through the [TS]

  ms marvel by willow Wilson and Adrian [TS]

  fona I I'm big a big fan of that whole [TS]

  reboot of the character of ms marvel to [TS]

  make her [TS]

  Kamala Khan she's in New Jersey there's [TS]

  a mist gives her powers [TS]

  her parents are and she is there are [TS]

  different pakistan and they're somewhat [TS]

  strict and and they want her to dress a [TS]

  certain way and not leave the house at [TS]

  certain times and it makes in [TS]

  traditional Marvel style makes it [TS]

  complicated for her to be a superhero [TS]

  and I don't know if any of you read [TS]

  those but it's good that i haven't read [TS]

  i haven't done a whole lot of comics [TS]

  lately so it was just kind of like a [TS]

  butt gorged myself on all of these and [TS]

  that was that was my favorite of all of [TS]

  them i just ate it suck me and I've [TS]

  never felt that that guy i've never [TS]

  really liked superhero comics to begin [TS]

  with so I was not looking forward to [TS]

  reading this one but it really grabbed [TS]

  me and I I related to her and we've [TS]

  never related to a superhero comic [TS]

  before except for alias but that's a [TS]

  little different so yeah [TS]

  thumbs up for that one for me uh [TS]

  anybody read rat Queens I did you think [TS]

  it was cute [TS]

  yeah I I thought it was it was because [TS]

  it was entertaining i liked the fact [TS]

  that they was the main characters were [TS]

  all were all women but it was very much [TS]

  sort of written in a way that it I felt [TS]

  like perhaps it could have just been [TS]

  these characters were all written as men [TS]

  and then just change the the genders in [TS]

  the names because they didn't actually [TS]

  feel like like me i didn't i didn't feel [TS]

  like I related to those those characters [TS]

  at all i'm sure there are plenty of [TS]

  women out there who do I just didn't [TS]

  play for me quite as well as something [TS]

  like molecule ended saga vol.3 bryan [TS]

  cave on Fiona staples i think one recent [TS]

  Hugo one of the more praised comics of [TS]

  the last few years I i love the volume 1 [TS]

  volume 2 and I loved vol.3 yeah i would [TS]

  i would say I kind of got stuck it out [TS]

  ok I I like it but um it as it's gone [TS]

  I've cooled to it again I think it's [TS]

  great but it's not my enthusiasm is not [TS]

  what it was when it started out I feel [TS]

  like you know it's a saga i'll come back [TS]

  to it but I you know but vol volume 3 [TS]

  didn't do it for me like 12 did I did [TS]

  not read volume one or two I just read [TS]

  volume-wise yeah i mean i normally [TS]

  that's not that's not the way I do [TS]

  things but I figured it is it is [TS]

  nominated for a hugo award on its own so [TS]

  I'm going to read it on its own and see [TS]

  how it works and it was ok um I I still [TS]

  don't feel like I know quite what's [TS]

  going on in that universe it took me a [TS]

  lot longer to figure it out and get my [TS]

  footing then I sort of expected it too [TS]

  so i'm not sure that it i'm not sure [TS]

  that it works too well on its own but i [TS]

  think still think it was quite good i [TS]

  think it's consistent actually with the [TS]

  other the this is not a series that [TS]

  makes it easy and there's not a lot of [TS]

  downloading you have to pick up like in [TS]

  a panel you'll be like oh I wonder if [TS]

  that's what that means [TS]

  and that's you sort of its it's not i [TS]

  mean i'm sure would be much clearer if [TS]

  you'd start with volume 1 volume 3 but [TS]

  it is it is kind of like that in that [TS]

  day they don't they don't hand it to you [TS]

  I like to know [TS]

  that I may actually go back and read the [TS]

  first couple of volumes are good so you [TS]

  like that so the him that worked [TS]

  there's people with horns and people [TS]

  with wings and TV heads [TS]

  NP and robots with TV ads but i have i [TS]

  read the first two volumes now did you [TS]

  like it [TS]

  I i did I don't really felt compelled to [TS]

  read the third 1i so there you go [TS]

  mhm and that Scott who doesn't even read [TS]

  the funny books so let's go i was [TS]

  listening to an uncomfortable huh [TS]

  book club well today we got it so great [TS]

  and I was like I really should be comic [TS]

  books because or whatever they're called [TS]

  now graphic novel and whatever [TS]

  countertop because everybody keeps [TS]

  talking about them and clearly i missing [TS]

  something and so I read these anybody [TS]

  that my problem and this just me is that [TS]

  I read them like i read a novel so i [TS]

  just read all of the dialogue and ignore [TS]

  all the pictures of herself and I [TS]

  missing something [TS]

  I I don't think I'm cut out for comic [TS]

  book material sex criminals by matt [TS]

  fraction and chips art Starsky i I've [TS]

  read this I liked it a lot i didn't love [TS]

  it but I like it I like its humor it is [TS]

  to people who discovered that when they [TS]

  have orgasms they can stop time and it's [TS]

  a man and a woman and then they meet and [TS]

  then the fun begins [TS]

  because they can rob banks and have sex [TS]

  in the bank is really what else would [TS]

  you do me really i liked it i thought it [TS]

  was I thought it was fun i agree it was [TS]

  funny it made me laugh it was it was [TS]

  clever i also would not say that i loved [TS]

  it i feel like you know it despite the [TS]

  fact that i said that i really love [TS]

  beginnings and starting things out and [TS]

  the the discovery is what i enjoy i feel [TS]

  like that's not the case here because [TS]

  the the first section is just ramping up [TS]

  to something else happening in in the [TS]

  second installment and and I feel like [TS]

  I'm actually more excited to see where [TS]

  this is going [TS]

  then when I was 22 see how it was was [TS]

  all starting out I enjoyed it i mean i-i [TS]

  love heist i love good criminals i love [TS]

  orgasms so you know it's there you go [TS]

  it's there it's got everything it all [TS]

  its got it off but again you know it was [TS]

  good not great i love orgasms raves [TS]

  David lower of income from ya [TS]

  that's that's the best full quote ever [TS]

  put that with a line about how ascot [TS]

  learned everything from showtimes [TS]

  masters of sex [TS]

  the hits just keep on coming let's talk [TS]

  about dramatic presentations we have in [TS]

  this category i'll just list them [TS]

  captain america the winter soldier edge [TS]

  of tomorrow [TS]

  guardians of the galaxy interstellar and [TS]

  the lego movie all of which i have seen [TS]

  Oh what about you what about all of ye I [TS]

  really i've seen all of them i really [TS]

  enjoyed four of them i loved two of them [TS]

  you're gonna tell us that you're gonna [TS]

  give us back or keep us guessing this is [TS]

  not a game up mastermind David you just [TS]

  want to focus on this Isle of the lego [TS]

  movie I wouldn't vote for it for this I [TS]

  don't really think that science fiction [TS]

  it's just it's fun huh [TS]

  but well not that science fiction can be [TS]

  fun because i love guardians of the [TS]

  galaxy two and it is science fiction but [TS]

  i would give it to edge of tomorrow i [TS]

  think because it actually has a [TS]

  science-fiction premise and does [TS]

  something with it and it's cool i really [TS]

  like edge of tomorrow I feel like they [TS]

  did an awful job of marketing that movie [TS]

  yes yes I nobody saw it and it has the [TS]

  whole time cruise thing but I thought [TS]

  Tom Cruise was great in it and i really [TS]

  enjoyed the whole thing so I think if I [TS]

  were giving a hugo to it i would do one [TS]

  of these which clearly i will be well [TS]

  i'll be voting i'm going to vote for [TS]

  educator i gotta say i mean it it was [TS]

  being adapted from all you need is kill [TS]

  which is a better title it's been [TS]

  remarketed as a DVD and the the thing [TS]

  lived I repeat edge of tomorrow lived I [TS]

  repeat is a better title MH y YH of [TS]

  tomorrow it's like a soap opera the [TS]

  first time I saw the trailer i thought [TS]

  why are you naming that it was so [TS]

  obvious from the first moment that it [TS]

  was a terrible title for that movie [TS]

  yeah i mean it's it's got again it's got [TS]

  everything it's got Tom Cruise getting [TS]

  killed over and over and over and over [TS]

  again so even if you don't like Tom [TS]

  Cruise how much fun is that all points [TS]

  trip and it starts off not as a Tom [TS]

  Cruise character he's right on cruise [TS]

  not playing a Tom Cruise character of [TS]

  those he turns into a Tom Cruise [TS]

  characters throughout the course with me [TS]

  but he does die a lot so yeah Erica what [TS]

  do you think of these where would you [TS]

  rank them [TS]

  um I haven't seen interstellar that's [TS]

  the only 1i have not seen I don't have [TS]

  the same the same feelings about the [TS]

  Hugo's and science fiction is David does [TS]

  because I i also allow fantasy in there [TS]

  as do the most of the nominations [TS]

  nominators that's the category that i [TS]

  would put the lego movie and so I sure [TS]

  you don't I still don't know if I'm [TS]

  going to have that on my ballot in the [TS]

  same way because i just it doesn't [TS]

  strike me as the kind of stories that i [TS]

  would generally put on the Underwood's [TS]

  ballot but edge of tomorrow I loved and [TS]

  I did everything you guys said [TS]

  absolutely so that's that's going at the [TS]

  top of my list i enjoyed the the Marvel [TS]

  movies it off but i guess not maybe [TS]

  enough to put them on the ballot here I [TS]

  like all five of these movies I've seen [TS]

  them all and I like all five of them and [TS]

  if i were to rank them which i will ask [TS]

  points out because we also vote [TS]

  I'm gonna put Winter Soldier first I [TS]

  think it is the best Marvel movie i [TS]

  would put the guardians of the galaxy [TS]

  side second edge of tomorrow third [TS]

  interstellar forth and I actually liked [TS]

  interstellar and I put the lego movie [TS]

  fifth not because of anything about the [TS]

  genre but because i don't think it's as [TS]

  good as the other four it's fun and cute [TS]

  and my you know kids really enjoyed it [TS]

  but I i don't think it it carries the [TS]

  weight of the other for the things that [TS]

  make it awesome [TS]

  r0 sort of like that yeah well made [TS]

  well-played are the easiest sort of the [TS]

  cute things in the in jokes and stuff [TS]

  and that's that's not what I'm looking [TS]

  for when I'm thinking about what i want [TS]

  to put on my Awards ballot that's that's [TS]

  what I'm thinking about when I just want [TS]

  to sit down and giggle for a while but [TS]

  that it's not quite the same thing so my [TS]

  yeah thats i think i will definitely put [TS]

  edge of tomorrow first and that I don't [TS]

  even know that i'll put anything else [TS]

  above no award because i'm not really [TS]

  sure any of the rest of them would would [TS]

  have made it for me [TS]

  interesting yeah that that's how i roll [TS]

  I don't put everything on there and then [TS]

  no award underneath for me it's it's [TS]

  it's how do i do I think this is [TS]

  actually worthy of the angle award and [TS]

  there are lots of good things things [TS]

  that I enjoy that i put underneath that [TS]

  that line so that doesn't mean they're [TS]

  bad [TS]

  I i would probably put edge and then [TS]

  guardians of the galaxy and then winter [TS]

  soldier and then no award because yeah I [TS]

  did not like interstellar Paco I like [TS]

  interstellar so i guess i would i'll put [TS]

  my ranking is everybody okay so edge of [TS]

  tomorrow interstellar a captain america [TS]

  gardens the galaxies the lego movie we [TS]

  go [TS]

  although i love the lego movie i do ya [TS]

  if ya same here same here [TS]

  I mean I'm a try to see interstellar [TS]

  before you know squeeze it in the next [TS]

  couple weeks before I before I vote but [TS]

  it's it's a couple of weeks long yes [TS]

  okay that's better hurry about the ride [TS]

  but John with Gaza it it's true [TS]

  yeah that's it that's the thumbs up [TS]

  alright let's talk about dramatic [TS]

  short-form are this is our operating [TS]

  doctor who reference in an episode that [TS]

  erica is on listen by Steven Moffat has [TS]

  nominated here as well as the pilot for [TS]

  the flash the mountain and the Viper but [TS]

  very exciting episode of Game of Thrones [TS]

  were somebody people died and fight and [TS]

  stuff [TS]

  visit scantrons remember the episode of [TS]

  Graham I've never seen haven't seen [TS]

  cream since the pilot so i have no idea [TS]

  what that episode isn't any season [TS]

  finale of last season of orphan black [TS]

  those are the nominees hear any any any [TS]

  thoughts [TS]

  Erica Doctor Who person yeah I it [TS]

  honestly listen was not my favorite I [TS]

  degree of the episodes [TS]

  however I do feel in a lot of ways it [TS]

  was it was strong on the points that [TS]

  make it feel like it belongs in an award [TS]

  category so I was I was okay with it i [TS]

  think it was actually even on my ballot [TS]

  even though it wasn't for my nomination [TS]

  ballot even though it's not my favorite [TS]

  it wasn't it was an elegantly done story [TS]

  it tied and wrapped around it played [TS]

  with time it was emotional it was yeah [TS]

  so it had a lot of things that that to [TS]

  me say award-worthy even though I would [TS]

  rather sit down and watch time heist [TS]

  over and over again that watch that [TS]

  watch listen again so that will be at [TS]

  the top of mine i haven't actually i did [TS]

  see the game of thrones an orphan black [TS]

  but I couldn't remember because i did [TS]

  not remember which episodes they were by [TS]

  the title I was like that's not a good [TS]

  sign huh well beyond there somewhere i [TS]

  just have to figure out exactly which [TS]

  piece of the story they are referring to [TS]

  yes yeah I would [TS]

  infrared listen first just because again [TS]

  you know it does play with time and then [TS]

  i think i think i was on the TV episode [TS]

  for it and and i loved it [TS]

  minutes after I watched it and yeah [TS]

  there are other better stories in this [TS]

  season but of these five that's the one [TS]

  I'm going to vote for and then you know [TS]

  the flash I really love the flash it did [TS]

  a great job setting up the story is it [TS]

  is a quick hugo award worthy [TS]

  I don't know but it made me watch the [TS]

  series which arrow still hasn't done and [TS]

  Game of Thrones i have set their [TS]

  episodes of game of crowns and I [TS]

  appreciate the work that goes into it [TS]

  and I totally get it [TS]

  grim I appreciate that work goes into it [TS]

  but i cannot sit there episodes of that [TS]

  and orphan black is just fun so I would [TS]

  probably go doctor who works in black [TS]

  flash and then I suppose open game of [TS]

  thrones in the new award take that grim [TS]

  now my wife my wife loves grim so I have [TS]

  seen many episodes grim I don't know if [TS]

  I've seen this episode we're not that's [TS]

  why it's it's a fine show set in [TS]

  Portland Oregon which my wife loves [TS]

  Christian Portland so I'm kind of over [TS]

  Doctor Who I have to admit I haven't had [TS]

  a lot of other hero voters I I feel like [TS]

  doctor who has been a the last couple of [TS]

  seasons diminishing returns for me as a [TS]

  viewer so but i love the flash and like [TS]

  I like the game of thrones but i really [TS]

  like I i think i would pick the flash [TS]

  first and then probably orphan black [TS]

  just because I feel like our flex kind [TS]

  of losing the thread 2 and this year i'm [TS]

  judging the entire series not just the [TS]

  one episode which is probably not the [TS]

  way you're supposed to do it and so I [TS]

  would do the flash [TS]

  a orphan black game of thrones doctor [TS]

  who and Graham you know I really wish [TS]

  that orphan black and Game of Thrones [TS]

  had been nominated in the best dramatic [TS]

  presentation long-form just like the [TS]

  entire season because they're so so see [TS]

  realized you know doctor who does not [TS]

  work that way even if it's somewhat more [TS]

  serialize than it has been so I think I [TS]

  it's hard for me to just pick out one [TS]

  piece and then judge that on its own [TS]

  when I'm thinking about the rest of the [TS]

  series there was well that episode you [TS]

  didn't like in the first season Erica [TS]

  with that with the the party in the [TS]

  suburbs I actually think that was [TS]

  perfectly eminently nominated well on [TS]

  its own but this yeah well that that one [TS]

  is yes but this this is just I mean they [TS]

  nominated because it's the season finale [TS]

  and it's got a bunch of twists and stuff [TS]

  in it but i'm not sure that I my love [TS]

  for over from black is more as a whole [TS]

  and not for these individual episodes so [TS]

  I I'm with you there [TS]

  I'm gonna I'm gonna do something [TS]

  shocking here i'm gonna bring the flash [TS]

  pilot first I think the flash pilot yeah [TS]

  you know is it is a fantastic work of [TS]

  art in and in the way that listen is [TS]

  seriously crafted as a this this is my [TS]

  chance Steven Moffat says to write an [TS]

  episode that's not based on a on the [TS]

  this season long arc which is his job [TS]

  but instead just to show off how [TS]

  brilliant he is a writer well he is a [TS]

  very good writer but i'm gonna put the [TS]

  flash pilot first because doing a [TS]

  superhero show and having to be fun and [TS]

  and smart in its own way and have [TS]

  likable characters and have a really [TS]

  nice setup the flash really did it in a [TS]

  in a spectacular way that it's a really [TS]

  great pilot and a fun show and so I'm [TS]

  gonna I'm gonna list the flash first and [TS]

  then i'll list doctor who and then [TS]

  probably game of thrones an orphan black [TS]

  and sorry Graham I have never watched [TS]

  you other than the pilot so that's [TS]

  probably will do I know heresy the [TS]

  flashover doctor who but there it is [TS]

  should-should innominate flatline that's [TS]

  all I'm saying [TS]

  yeah no yeah i mean admitting that for [TS]

  me or that one that would have been my [TS]

  first choice [TS]

  yeah well so how was your Hugo [TS]

  experience everybody it was kind of [TS]

  rough wasn't it [TS]

  yep it always is haha this is true Scott [TS]

  this is true although I [TS]

  got much more pleasure out of the short [TS]

  fiction nominees in the past it's been [TS]

  like a little anthology created for me [TS]

  from the hugo nominees nomination group [TS]

  and some of them are great but some of [TS]

  them are really great and are a lot of [TS]

  good finds you find interesting artists [TS]

  are authors and this time it was like it [TS]

  was not that it was like assigned [TS]

  reading of things that aren't good [TS]

  it's like going through a slush pile [TS]

  some people complain that the Hugo's are [TS]

  a popularity contest but I i don't i [TS]

  like that their popularity contest [TS]

  because at least in years past when I've [TS]

  read things it's been yeah you get quite [TS]

  a mix but it's stuff that people are [TS]

  genuinely passionate about and they they [TS]

  loved it but when it comes to the the [TS]

  puppy slate I I don't have great [TS]

  confidence that that all of the people [TS]

  that nominated those actually nominated [TS]

  those things actually read them and felt [TS]

  really strongly about them if I thought [TS]

  that then then I would be like hey good [TS]

  for good for you folks but yeah yeah all [TS]

  of the all of the ballots coming in the [TS]

  the same time and and all being being [TS]

  purchased in one sort of fell swoop [TS]

  right after somebody you supposedly [TS]

  reached out to gamergate and whether [TS]

  they did or not just that the timing of [TS]

  it kind of made me go [TS]

  so yeah that that that is where my eye [TS]

  because i like the idea that that that [TS]

  there would be enough folks out there [TS]

  that are interested in you know the [TS]

  Golden Age science fiction style stuff [TS]

  with you know spaceships and adventure [TS]

  to get some of that stuff on the ballot [TS]

  because I like that stuff too so someday [TS]

  yeah I yeah I was just like not not for [TS]

  somebody to say here are five things to [TS]

  vote for and then those five things get [TS]

  voted for and then that's the nominee [TS]

  list is those five things examine that [TS]

  they are making efforts to change the [TS]

  way the hugo awards work which is [TS]

  probably going to take several years [TS]

  because the hugo words is a gigantic [TS]

  bureaucracy it turns out [TS]

  yeah take two years to change the rule [TS]

  yeah so eventually they will probably [TS]

  change the rule it sounds like the most [TS]

  common idea is to expand the nomination [TS]

  group who and reduce the number of [TS]

  nominees that each person can't kannamma [TS]

  Nate thereby making it much harder for [TS]

  on [TS]

  mass a mass group to fill the category [TS]

  but it may take a while for them to do [TS]

  that and another another thing that will [TS]

  help is just sort of getting the word [TS]

  out about the fact that the Hugo's is a [TS]

  popularity contest is something that you [TS]

  can vote on that something that I didn't [TS]

  know until just not too many years ago [TS]

  so I think the more people that learn [TS]

  that and realize that they can be part [TS]

  of the process the better because when [TS]

  you have a bigger pool you're gonna get [TS]

  you know more interesting more [TS]

  interesting group of stuff [TS]

  one of the problems with Hugo's is that [TS]

  there's this tiny core of people who [TS]

  were just kind of voting for stuff and [TS]

  it was like a little Nirvana and they [TS]

  were voting for all the stuff that they [TS]

  liked and then other people suddenly [TS]

  noticed hey these people have this [TS]

  prestigious award and they never vote [TS]

  for any of this stuff that i really like [TS]

  so let's get at all of my fans to just [TS]

  vote for stuff I think should be on so [TS]

  we can make a big statement and then [TS]

  every all hell broke loose and frankly I [TS]

  find it all boring because there's [TS]

  nothing I read fiction and science [TS]

  fiction to escape from bureaucracy and [TS]

  having to think about rules and so I [TS]

  blame all of them for making me think [TS]

  about have a great science-fiction novel [TS]

  no I'm going to that i'm going to write [TS]

  for you Scott [TS]

  that's entirely about rules and [TS]

  bureaucracy in space [TS]

  oh is it also gonna have lots of weapons [TS]

  with robots there will be some weapons [TS]

  list the specifications of all the [TS]

  weapons yes I can't wait for the graphic [TS]

  novel version myself bureaucracy it's [TS]

  coming just look for it is it all the [TS]

  the first the first book will be titled [TS]

  and it shall be signed in triplicate [TS]

  haha the first the first one and then it [TS]

  goes it goes from there you can just [TS]

  imagine death to the space bear that's [TS]

  book to death to the space mayor he [TS]

  doesn't die its ally boilers know that I [TS]

  haven't told you the big spoiler which [TS]

  is that the space players a robot Oh No [TS]

  Oh giving everything away now a lot or [TS]

  not or no well that's the twist that I [TS]

  will reveal how that but Mayor coming [TS]

  through or is it ok we're done with the [TS]

  ego words another year maybe forever i [TS]

  knows but we will be at at sasquatch [TS]

  when they give them out so we're not [TS]

  really done with it we will be there to [TS]

  witness who knows what's gonna happen [TS]

  but uh should be interesting [TS]

  well the radio shows got radio show will [TS]

  happen if you're participating in task 1 [TS]

  you should come see our radio show four [TS]

  o'clock on Saturday we will be [TS]

  performing radio drama live and then [TS]

  after that Jason you get to help with [TS]

  the the pre and post-show for the hugo [TS]

  award ceremony itself [TS]

  I yeah so what do I sign up for the [TS]

  post-show too well I don't know [TS]

  ok free show for sure ok yes definitely [TS]

  we will be we will be all over so let us [TS]

  know if you're coming and you can say [TS]

  hello to us and but until then I'm going [TS]

  to thank my guests and they can go off [TS]

  and fill out there you go ballots David [TS]

  lower thanks for being here anytime [TS]

  Erica and sign thanks so much for being [TS]

  here and doing the reading [TS]

  yeah I did the reading good boy did i do [TS]

  read more than I did so a plus [TS]

  you did this login uh-huh and Scott [TS]

  McNulty he always does the reading [TS]

  thank you Scott I'm looking forward to [TS]

  the nebulous next year need to me too [TS]

  maybe some world fantasy awards are in [TS]

  our future too [TS]

  who knows locust or the locust the [TS]

  locusts they will know it's the jury [TS]

  because that's what the locals say and [TS]

  that's it for this time thanks everybody [TS]

  out there for listening to be [TS]

  uncomfortable we will see you next week [TS]

  how space rocket see I'm telling you [TS]

  just wait for it it's gonna be big [TS]

  well I'm I'm gonna get Dan's agent to [TS]

  pitching usually is big so yeah oh yeah [TS]

  it'll be it'll be the in fact the book [TS]

  it will be four pages long but the only [TS]

  be 200 pages of story and then the rest [TS]

  of it will just be like sorry we had to [TS]

  include extra pages because it's it's [TS]

  complicated [TS]

  discount wi wrapped in red tape it does [TS]

  that's the book cover yeah the Jan it's [TS]

  regulated tape you have like a hundred [TS]

  pages of boilerplate and appendices and [TS]

  a couple of lines for people to assign [TS]

  so its interactive yeah a form they have [TS]

  to fill out ya coming to the [TS]

  uncomfortable press yes that's right [TS]

  coming nowhere very never know if you [TS]

  write it week and put it on the [TS]

  uncomfortable website we can nominated [TS]

  for a huge oh you're a riot aight and [TS]

  I've already thinking that there might [TS]

  be a space bureaucracy episode when we [TS]

  get to Spokane and it shall be filled in [TS]

  triplicates awesome i am making notes [TS]

  right on calc one of the Cincinnati [TS]

  rockers that book one of 208 book1 [TS]

  sub-article five [TS]

  yes yeah it would it would be subtitled [TS]

  the book one in the space bureaucracy [TS]

  saga [TS]

  that's right it yeah sorry bureaucrat [TS]

  with at all and I don't even know yeah [TS]

  you were a red shirt with buttons down [TS]

  the right Kevin understand just have to [TS]

  help you cannot [TS]

  welcome to our little town of Vinci this [TS]

  month on being comparable TV podcast [TS]

  join me Special Agent Brian hamilton and [TS]

  me [TS]

  desk sergeant philipose alack we spend [TS]

  an hour each week in the evidence Locker [TS]

  poring over tape fingerprints and the [TS]

  charred remains of blowing up cars to [TS]

  put your badge on strap your gun up and [TS]

  let's do some detective work together [TS]

  visit the incomparable dot-com / TV / [TS]

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