ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Have either of you ever had an SD card go bad?

00:00:04 ◼   ► - Hmm, don't think so.

00:00:07 ◼   ► I think what happens, either the capacity becomes so low

00:00:11 ◼   ► that they become useless to you or you lose them.

00:00:13 ◼   ► I think those are the two failure modes for me.

00:00:15 ◼   ► - Fair.

00:00:16 ◼   ► - I actually had one go bad for I think the first time.

00:00:19 ◼   ► And it's a good one, it's like a SanDisk Extreme Pro,

00:00:22 ◼   ► you know, it's like one of the really good,

00:00:24 ◼   ► fairly expensive ones. (laughs)

00:00:27 ◼   ► And it actually went bad, like it's producing

00:00:29 ◼   ► write errors on any camera that tries to write to it.

00:00:32 ◼   ► I'm like shaken to my core, like I always heard

00:00:34 ◼   ► this was a possibility, but I've never seen it happen.

00:00:37 ◼   ► I'm questioning everything now.

00:00:39 ◼   ► Is the sky blue?

00:00:40 ◼   ► - I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often,

00:00:41 ◼   ► because they are so inexpensive in the grand scheme

00:00:44 ◼   ► of things in terms of how many bits they hold, right?

00:00:46 ◼   ► And they're small and flimsy and have those exposed contacts

00:00:49 ◼   ► but you know.

00:00:50 ◼   ► - I guess, yeah.

00:00:51 ◼   ► - I think the only failure I've had,

00:00:53 ◼   ► which JJ in the chat has said the same thing,

00:00:56 ◼   ► one where the plastic around the contacts broke

00:00:59 ◼   ► and then that made it like super dodgy to continue to use

00:01:02 ◼   ► 'cause it was super duper like structurally compromised.

00:01:05 ◼   ► I've had that happen, I don't think in terms of like

00:01:07 ◼   ► what you're talking about, Mark,

00:01:08 ◼   ► where it's just a read or write errors.

00:01:10 ◼   ► I can't recall that ever happening.

00:01:11 ◼   ► Although I will say that there is a special place in hell

00:01:15 ◼   ► for both the USB-A designers and the person who designed

00:01:19 ◼   ► the write protect switch on SD cards,

00:01:21 ◼   ► because I have only ever found one device in my entire life

00:01:26 ◼   ► that I think can actually, into which I can insert an SD card

00:01:30 ◼   ► without tripping that switch and that is my MacBook Pro.

00:01:33 ◼   ► Actually, so the M1 was the same way.

00:01:34 ◼   ► So the M1 and the M3 MacBook Pros,

00:01:36 ◼   ► I can successfully insert an SD card into that

00:01:39 ◼   ► without tripping the switch.

00:01:40 ◼   ► - That's because it sticks out

00:01:41 ◼   ► when you stick it in those, right?

00:01:43 ◼   ► Doesn't actually go.

00:01:44 ◼   ► - No, not the--

00:01:44 ◼   ► - The switch doesn't though,

00:01:45 ◼   ► 'cause the switch is near the front of the card.

00:01:48 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:01:49 ◼   ► The card absolutely does,

00:01:50 ◼   ► but the switch does not like Marco said.

00:01:52 ◼   ► But I tell you what, every other frickin' device I've ever,

00:01:55 ◼   ► well, that's not fair, not the cameras in my life,

00:01:58 ◼   ► but the readers in my life, my beloved CalDigit TS4,

00:02:02 ◼   ► that, every single frickin' time I put one in,

00:02:04 ◼   ► it trips the thing.

00:02:05 ◼   ► Oh, it's off.

00:02:06 ◼   ► - I've never tripped that switch.

00:02:08 ◼   ► I even thought it was where the floppy disk one,

00:02:10 ◼   ► this just goes to show, that's why I said it sticks out.

00:02:11 ◼   ► I thought the switch was the other part.

00:02:12 ◼   ► I've never tripped it.

00:02:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't think I ever have either.

00:02:15 ◼   ► - No, you are a unicorn.

00:02:17 ◼   ► - I do have a problem though with SD cards

00:02:19 ◼   ► where it's kind of like USB, micro-USB ports,

00:02:21 ◼   ► where I have to put it in three different times

00:02:23 ◼   ► to figure out which direction it goes.

00:02:24 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, I have a mnemonic for my cameras

00:02:26 ◼   ► to remember which way the little notch goes,

00:02:28 ◼   ► you know, like this one side at the end.

00:02:30 ◼   ► 'Cause at least it is visually asymmetrical,

00:02:33 ◼   ► even though slot-wise, you can put it in both ways.

00:02:36 ◼   ► But yeah, that's annoying.

00:02:38 ◼   ► - We have some excellent news.

00:02:42 ◼   ► It is that time of year.

00:02:45 ◼   ► The ATP Store is back, baby.

00:02:47 ◼   ► It's WWDC time and it is back.

00:02:50 ◼   ► We've got all sorts of stuff.

00:02:51 ◼   ► We got old stuff, we got new stuff.

00:02:53 ◼   ► We got yellow stuff, we got blue stuff.

00:02:54 ◼   ► All sorts of different stuff that we can talk about.

00:02:56 ◼   ► Now, Jon, I'm happy to do a nickel tour,

00:02:58 ◼   ► but would you rather do it or you wanna just interject?

00:03:01 ◼   ► - Let me go through the store products.

00:03:02 ◼   ► So yeah, as Casey said, this is the WWDC sale,

00:03:05 ◼   ► which you may be thinking, it's April.

00:03:06 ◼   ► WWDC is not until June.

00:03:08 ◼   ► Well, you know, it takes a long time to have the sale

00:03:10 ◼   ► and then to take the orders and then to make the shirts.

00:03:12 ◼   ► And as always, we try to get products to people

00:03:16 ◼   ► in time to go to WWDC.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Now, so very few people get to go to WWDC

00:03:20 ◼   ► in person these days.

00:03:21 ◼   ► As it stands right now, none of us are gonna be there,

00:03:23 ◼   ► but we love to see photos of people from WWDC.

00:03:26 ◼   ► And if there's someone in that photo wearing one

00:03:28 ◼   ► of our shirts, that's just wonderful.

00:03:30 ◼   ► So if you order now, you may, may get your merchandise

00:03:34 ◼   ► in time to attend WWDC.

00:03:36 ◼   ► So we get it earlier and earlier every year.

00:03:40 ◼   ► Maybe it'll, we'll start doing it in January sometime.

00:03:43 ◼   ► Anyway, here are the products we have.

00:03:45 ◼   ► So our first new shirt is called ATP Windows.

00:03:48 ◼   ► No, not the Microsoft kind, the Me kind.

00:03:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:03:53 ◼   ► If you watched our recent member special

00:03:57 ◼   ► that had a video version where you got to see me try

00:04:01 ◼   ► to explain how I use Windows on my Mac,

00:04:03 ◼   ► we thought we'd have a shirt sort of in that theme.

00:04:06 ◼   ► I'm not sure the design entirely captures

00:04:10 ◼   ► the profound beauty that is my window management technique.

00:04:15 ◼   ► - All right, all right.

00:04:16 ◼   ► I think you're looking for a different word there.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:04:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I did my best.

00:04:20 ◼   ► It's got Windows on it anyway.

00:04:22 ◼   ► So we have this shirt in two different versions.

00:04:25 ◼   ► One has the full color ATP logo on it

00:04:28 ◼   ► and it also has color window widgets.

00:04:31 ◼   ► And the other one, I guess, is the graphite mode

00:04:33 ◼   ► where it is monochrome and a little bit,

00:04:34 ◼   ► a little bit cheaper and everything is a single color,

00:04:37 ◼   ► I think, so okay, it's been Windows and ATP,

00:04:38 ◼   ► Windows monochrome.

00:04:39 ◼   ► - And it is, by the way, it's amazing.

00:04:41 ◼   ► Like when we do shirts with colors, like we,

00:04:46 ◼   ► when you, when you make shirts, when you, when they're,

00:04:48 ◼   ► when they're being screen printed,

00:04:49 ◼   ► you generally pay per color.

00:04:51 ◼   ► And so every additional color you have on a shirt,

00:04:53 ◼   ► either the price goes up or your profit goes down or both.

00:04:58 ◼   ► And so, and, but we don't want to make, you know,

00:05:00 ◼   ► a crappy shirt and our logo happens to be a rainbow.

00:05:03 ◼   ► - Not great planning on our part.

00:05:05 ◼   ► - We get killed on shirt costs.

00:05:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, we do.

00:05:08 ◼   ► - And the funny thing about the Windows shirt is like,

00:05:11 ◼   ► yeah, even if we gave it a monochrome logo,

00:05:12 ◼   ► you have to have those traffic light colors

00:05:15 ◼   ► in the window widgets to make it look right.

00:05:16 ◼   ► So yes, we do have a monochrome version of the shirt,

00:05:19 ◼   ► but the color version looks so much better

00:05:21 ◼   ► and there's a reason why it's going to be more expensive.

00:05:23 ◼   ► - Yep, so same as it ever was.

00:05:25 ◼   ► Although for both of these shirts,

00:05:27 ◼   ► something is true that's true of the other products as well.

00:05:29 ◼   ► We are trying to offer a large variety of things.

00:05:33 ◼   ► We keep saying shirts and yes, you can buy a t-shirt,

00:05:35 ◼   ► but now you can buy a long sleeve t-shirt

00:05:37 ◼   ► if you don't want a short sleeve one and a sweatshirt.

00:05:41 ◼   ► And in some cases, a tank top.

00:05:43 ◼   ► So just because just you're thinking,

00:05:45 ◼   ► no, I don't want a t-shirt,

00:05:46 ◼   ► I already have a bunch of t-shirts,

00:05:47 ◼   ► maybe you want a long sleeve one,

00:05:49 ◼   ► maybe you want a sweatshirt for the warmer weather,

00:05:51 ◼   ► maybe you want a tank top for the hot summer weather.

00:05:53 ◼   ► So take a look.

00:05:54 ◼   ► So the HP Windows one comes in mostly dark colors

00:05:57 ◼   ► to fit with the multicolor logo

00:05:58 ◼   ► because the multicolor logo clashes

00:06:00 ◼   ► with lots of different shirt colors.

00:06:01 ◼   ► And then the monochrome one comes in a huge variety of colors

00:06:03 ◼   ► because it's just white ink

00:06:04 ◼   ► and then it has all sorts of different shirt colors.

00:06:06 ◼   ► The second new shirt we have this year

00:06:09 ◼   ► is inspired by Marco's nostalgic eBay hunting

00:06:12 ◼   ► for palm devices.

00:06:15 ◼   ► And it is the ATP graffiti shirt.

00:06:17 ◼   ► It is the ATP logo written

00:06:19 ◼   ► in Palm's graffiti handwriting system.

00:06:21 ◼   ► In particular, the little like instruction sheet

00:06:24 ◼   ► they would give you to teach you how to use graffiti

00:06:27 ◼   ► for younger people who don't know it was a way of writing

00:06:29 ◼   ► with a stylus on a little writing area.

00:06:32 ◼   ► And you would draw characters that look mostly like,

00:06:35 ◼   ► you know, the Roman alphabet,

00:06:37 ◼   ► but a little bit modified so that the computer

00:06:39 ◼   ► had an easier time telling what the characters are.

00:06:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, in particular,

00:06:42 ◼   ► every character was exactly one stroke.

00:06:45 ◼   ► So like every time the pen went down

00:06:47 ◼   ► and then moved around and then went up,

00:06:49 ◼   ► that was one character.

00:06:49 ◼   ► So that made it with the hardware at the time,

00:06:51 ◼   ► that made it much, much easier for the, you know,

00:06:54 ◼   ► basic computers of that time to recognize individual letters

00:06:57 ◼   ► as opposed to what the Newton tried to do,

00:06:59 ◼   ► which was write however you wanna write

00:07:01 ◼   ► and we'll try to figure it out and we won't be able to.

00:07:03 ◼   ► So that's one of the reasons why Palm like really succeeded

00:07:07 ◼   ► and took off is that they forced the user

00:07:09 ◼   ► to adopt a different style of writing

00:07:12 ◼   ► in exchange for it working really well.

00:07:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, and the way they would tell you

00:07:16 ◼   ► in the little instruction guide thing

00:07:17 ◼   ► is they would have like a little dot

00:07:19 ◼   ► where you're supposed to put your pen down

00:07:21 ◼   ► or put your stylus down

00:07:22 ◼   ► and then you'd see where the stroke goes.

00:07:23 ◼   ► So in the shirt, you'll see lines

00:07:25 ◼   ► with a little like lollipop circle.

00:07:27 ◼   ► That's where you're supposed to start the line

00:07:29 ◼   ► and then you ended where the line ends

00:07:30 ◼   ► 'cause they're all one stroke.

00:07:32 ◼   ► One of the most fun characters I always thought

00:07:33 ◼   ► was the way they had you do a T, as you can imagine.

00:07:36 ◼   ► If you try to do a T without lifting your stylus,

00:07:38 ◼   ► how are you gonna do that?

00:07:39 ◼   ► It was basically like a rotated L and that's great.

00:07:42 ◼   ► It's in our logo.

00:07:43 ◼   ► So we've got our little slashes

00:07:45 ◼   ► that representing the rainbow stripes

00:07:46 ◼   ► and we've got ATP.

00:07:47 ◼   ► So it's the ATP graffiti shirt/long sleeve shirt/sweat shirt/tank top.

00:07:52 ◼   ► - By the way, so excluding symbols,

00:07:54 ◼   ► what are your favorite graffiti characters?

00:07:55 ◼   ► For me, it's gotta be probably a tie

00:07:58 ◼   ► between the four and the K.

00:08:00 ◼   ► - Oh golly, I don't even remember.

00:08:01 ◼   ► The K was very good.

00:08:03 ◼   ► I'm looking at the alphabet now.

00:08:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, so the four, you just do like,

00:08:07 ◼   ► you know, like the way little kids write a four

00:08:08 ◼   ► where it has an open top,

00:08:09 ◼   ► you do like the little like down to the right

00:08:12 ◼   ► and then a big line down.

00:08:14 ◼   ► You just skip the big line down.

00:08:15 ◼   ► So it just like, it looks almost like the opposite

00:08:17 ◼   ► of the enter character on a keyboard.

00:08:19 ◼   ► It's just like an arrow going down to the right

00:08:21 ◼   ► and that's it.

00:08:22 ◼   ► And then the K is, it's as if you're drawing

00:08:25 ◼   ► a capital letter K without the big straight stick down.

00:08:29 ◼   ► So you skip the straight sticks down

00:08:30 ◼   ► and you just do a big whoop loopy thing

00:08:32 ◼   ► on the other side.

00:08:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, might be my two favorites, all right.

00:08:34 ◼   ► Well, I would pick A and T, surprisingly.

00:08:36 ◼   ► I like the upside down V for the A.

00:08:38 ◼   ► I like the T is like a rotated L

00:08:40 ◼   ► and I would probably also pick K 'cause that's a fun one.

00:08:42 ◼   ► - When Palm Devices came out, before I had one

00:08:45 ◼   ► and I was just like learning about them, researching them,

00:08:48 ◼   ► I thought this was the coolest thing in the world.

00:08:50 ◼   ► I would like, I would write handwritten notes in graffiti

00:08:54 ◼   ► just because I thought it looked,

00:08:56 ◼   ► it looked like the future, like it looked so cool.

00:08:59 ◼   ► - No, the new one was the future.

00:09:00 ◼   ► I remember the first time I think I told a story.

00:09:02 ◼   ► - I don't think that played out, John.

00:09:03 ◼   ► I don't think that worked out that way.

00:09:05 ◼   ► - The company that made it actually did pretty well

00:09:06 ◼   ► in handhelds. (laughing)

00:09:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it had nothing to do with the Newton.

00:09:10 ◼   ► - Pretty sure they killed it pretty quickly

00:09:11 ◼   ► once the new leader came in who made the company succeed.

00:09:14 ◼   ► - The spirit of the Newton lives on.

00:09:15 ◼   ► When I first saw Newton in like a computer store

00:09:18 ◼   ► for the first time and I picked it up

00:09:20 ◼   ► because I'd seen, like I'd seen,

00:09:21 ◼   ► I'd read in Apple magazines about the Newton

00:09:24 ◼   ► and I saw it in real life

00:09:25 ◼   ► and probably in a college computer store

00:09:28 ◼   ► when I was going on college tours for my sister.

00:09:30 ◼   ► And so I immediately picked it up, took the pen

00:09:33 ◼   ► and I wrote like, I don't know about it, right?

00:09:35 ◼   ► It might've been "Hello World" but probably not.

00:09:36 ◼   ► I wrote something but I wrote it in cursive.

00:09:40 ◼   ► Like, you know, 'cause I knew how to write cursive then

00:09:42 ◼   ► and it translated it perfectly.

00:09:44 ◼   ► I'm like, this machine is magic.

00:09:46 ◼   ► And then, you know, it more or less never did that again.

00:09:48 ◼   ► But the first impression was like how,

00:09:50 ◼   ► I mean, think of this, like in the pre-Palm days,

00:09:54 ◼   ► you had this device that was in your hand

00:09:56 ◼   ► and you could write cursive

00:09:57 ◼   ► and it would figure out what you wrote

00:09:58 ◼   ► in my cursive handwriting.

00:10:00 ◼   ► It was amazing.

00:10:01 ◼   ► I still have a couple of old ones in the attic, but yeah.

00:10:03 ◼   ► Before it's time.

00:10:04 ◼   ► - Of course you do.

00:10:05 ◼   ► All right, next product is,

00:10:07 ◼   ► these are all blasts from the past now.

00:10:09 ◼   ► The ATP Performance shirt, which we had on sale ages ago.

00:10:12 ◼   ► It is, well, Casey, you describe this one

00:10:14 ◼   ► 'cause this is your baby.

00:10:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's in the spirit of Under Armour.

00:10:17 ◼   ► If memory serves, it's the Nike equivalent of Under Armour

00:10:20 ◼   ► but this is the sort of thing where if you have it on,

00:10:22 ◼   ► first of all, it's fairly lightweight.

00:10:24 ◼   ► - It's Adidas by the way.

00:10:25 ◼   ► - Oh, sorry.

00:10:26 ◼   ► I thought it was Nike, but you're probably right.

00:10:27 ◼   ► No, you know, the Polos are Nike.

00:10:29 ◼   ► That's what I'm thinking of.

00:10:29 ◼   ► It is Adidas, you're right.

00:10:30 ◼   ► Anyways, one way or another,

00:10:32 ◼   ► when you get super duper sweaty,

00:10:33 ◼   ► if you're working out or whatever,

00:10:35 ◼   ► or you're just listening to our dulcet tones,

00:10:37 ◼   ► one way or another, if you get super sweaty,

00:10:38 ◼   ► if you try to yank this shirt off of you,

00:10:40 ◼   ► unlike a cotton shirt or whatever,

00:10:42 ◼   ► it won't just say, stay suction cup to your body.

00:10:46 ◼   ► It will actually come off of you, which is really nice.

00:10:48 ◼   ► And so it is 100% my preferred workout shirt.

00:10:52 ◼   ► I actually am wearing one right now

00:10:54 ◼   ► 'cause I worked out this afternoon

00:10:55 ◼   ► and I should have looked at my left sleeve

00:10:57 ◼   ► where there is an Adidas logo playing this day.

00:10:58 ◼   ► Thank you, Marco.

00:10:59 ◼   ► Anyways, so I really, really, really like these

00:11:02 ◼   ► as a workout shirt.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Again, it's not literally Under Armour as stated,

00:11:06 ◼   ► but it's spiritually the same idea.

00:11:07 ◼   ► So really enjoy these.

00:11:08 ◼   ► And I believe these are several different colors,

00:11:11 ◼   ► but T-shirt only.

00:11:13 ◼   ► - Yep, T-shirt only,

00:11:13 ◼   ► but the new colors this year, I think,

00:11:15 ◼   ► are navy, gray, and blue, I think.

00:11:19 ◼   ► Maybe it was just in red before.

00:11:20 ◼   ► Anyway, a bunch of new colors.

00:11:21 ◼   ► - Red and blue were previous.

00:11:22 ◼   ► I don't think we had anything about those.

00:11:24 ◼   ► - Yep, so the next returning shirt,

00:11:26 ◼   ► I like to have my classic shirts come back.

00:11:28 ◼   ► This time it's coming back

00:11:29 ◼   ► so I can buy some for my children

00:11:31 ◼   ► because they like the shirt

00:11:32 ◼   ► and they're annoyed that we haven't sold it

00:11:33 ◼   ► in like four years.

00:11:34 ◼   ► Actually, it can't be four years really,

00:11:36 ◼   ► but they have the older version of the shirt.

00:11:38 ◼   ► So this is ATP Monochrome Pro Max 2019.

00:11:42 ◼   ► So we sold a shirt that had the side profile

00:11:45 ◼   ► of a bunch of Pro Max many, many years ago,

00:11:49 ◼   ► and then we updated it after the 2019 Mac Pro came out

00:11:52 ◼   ► to stick the 2019 Mac Pro at the end of the line

00:11:54 ◼   ► next to the trash can, and that is this shirt.

00:11:57 ◼   ► It's not the one with wheels.

00:11:58 ◼   ► In general, when we do something with wheels,

00:12:00 ◼   ► that's like a one-time only thing,

00:12:01 ◼   ► so treasure your wheel shirts

00:12:02 ◼   ► because those probably aren't coming back.

00:12:04 ◼   ► But it is a bunch of Pro Max.

00:12:06 ◼   ► It is a monochrome shirt.

00:12:07 ◼   ► It comes in black and white, short sleeve and long sleeve,

00:12:11 ◼   ► and I will be buying this for my kids

00:12:12 ◼   ► and hopefully enough other people will buy it

00:12:13 ◼   ► that they will print the order

00:12:15 ◼   ► and my kids will get replacements for their shirts.

00:12:17 ◼   ► They like it because it's not so rainbowy colored

00:12:19 ◼   ► and I don't know, I think it's less embarrassing for them.

00:12:23 ◼   ► It does say Accidental Tech Podcast

00:12:25 ◼   ► like spelled out underneath it.

00:12:26 ◼   ► - It has a bunch of computers on it.

00:12:28 ◼   ► - Well, people don't know that they're computers.

00:12:30 ◼   ► They just think it's an interesting design.

00:12:31 ◼   ► - I think people recognize those as computers.

00:12:34 ◼   ► I mean, if it only had the trash can,

00:12:37 ◼   ► maybe they wouldn't recognize that,

00:12:38 ◼   ► but I think the rest look identifiably enough

00:12:40 ◼   ► like computer towers that they figure it out.

00:12:42 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:12:43 ◼   ► I mean, I think maybe the classic Mac,

00:12:45 ◼   ► but the ones that are towers in the side view,

00:12:46 ◼   ► you have to be a pretty big nerd to even pick out

00:12:49 ◼   ► that those are supposed to be side views

00:12:50 ◼   ► of tower computers, I think.

00:12:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, either way, it has six tower computers

00:12:53 ◼   ► and the word podcast on it,

00:12:55 ◼   ► so I think it's a pretty nerdy shirt.

00:12:57 ◼   ► - And a little trash can.

00:12:58 ◼   ► - All right, next one is our usual ATP six color shirts.

00:13:03 ◼   ► Once again, the colors, there's more than six of them,

00:13:04 ◼   ► refer to the color of the shirt.

00:13:05 ◼   ► It's just a monochrome ATP logo

00:13:07 ◼   ► on lots of different colorful shirts.

00:13:09 ◼   ► These are good and cheaper than the other ones

00:13:11 ◼   ► because it's just one color of ink

00:13:12 ◼   ► and you can get them in long sleeve

00:13:14 ◼   ► and tank and sweater and all that good stuff.

00:13:16 ◼   ► All right, and then we have our classic ATP logo shirt

00:13:18 ◼   ► with way too many colors on it

00:13:19 ◼   ► and even that one has changes here.

00:13:20 ◼   ► Now you can get a long sleeve version of that shirt

00:13:23 ◼   ► and I think also a tank top version of that shirt.

00:13:25 ◼   ► So that's our classic shirt.

00:13:27 ◼   ► We've got the hoodie, no different versions of this.

00:13:29 ◼   ► The hoodie is the hoodie, the hoodie is great.

00:13:31 ◼   ► My kids also both have the hoodie.

00:13:34 ◼   ► Thankfully they haven't lost or destroyed them yet,

00:13:35 ◼   ► so I don't need to buy them another one,

00:13:37 ◼   ► but if they did lose or destroy them,

00:13:38 ◼   ► I would get them another one, it's a really good hoodie.

00:13:41 ◼   ► This is another Casey special, we're nearing the end here.

00:13:43 ◼   ► The ATP polo, which Casey loves.

00:13:46 ◼   ► This is a Nike shirt

00:13:47 ◼   ► and even the polo comes in new colors this year.

00:13:50 ◼   ► I think what we have like gray and navy and black,

00:13:52 ◼   ► not very exciting new colors,

00:13:53 ◼   ► but remember it's got the full color embroidered ATP logo

00:13:57 ◼   ► on it, so again, the rainbow colors and logo tend to clash

00:13:59 ◼   ► if you have a shirt that's a different color.

00:14:01 ◼   ► So they're kind of sticking to neutral colors.

00:14:03 ◼   ► It works with navy and black and gray.

00:14:06 ◼   ► And then the final blast from the past,

00:14:08 ◼   ► the ATP hat, a baseball hat in new colors

00:14:12 ◼   ► because everything's in new colors.

00:14:13 ◼   ► The new color is I think navy to go along with the gray.

00:14:16 ◼   ► We haven't sold this in years,

00:14:18 ◼   ► so if you want a baseball hat

00:14:20 ◼   ► with a full color embroidered ATP logo on top of it,

00:14:23 ◼   ► now you can get one.

00:14:24 ◼   ► Oh yeah, and then bringing up the rear,

00:14:26 ◼   ► the very final product.

00:14:28 ◼   ► Would you believe we still have like a dozen pint glasses

00:14:30 ◼   ► left over from our last sale last year?

00:14:33 ◼   ► Please, somebody buy this dozen.

00:14:35 ◼   ► I don't have to bother myself

00:14:36 ◼   ► just to get them out of inventory.

00:14:38 ◼   ► 12, 12 pint glasses, we can do it.

00:14:40 ◼   ► I guess maybe I'll just buy a handful

00:14:43 ◼   ► and then we'll be down to single digits,

00:14:44 ◼   ► but yeah, a few pint glasses are left.

00:14:46 ◼   ► So there you have it, full line of stuff.

00:14:48 ◼   ► Again, even if we're not at WWDC,

00:14:50 ◼   ► we would love to see pictures of people

00:14:52 ◼   ► who are lucky enough to attend

00:14:54 ◼   ► maybe wearing one of these shirts

00:14:56 ◼   ► or an older ATP shirt, whatever.

00:14:57 ◼   ► And of course, if you are an ATP member,

00:15:00 ◼   ► don't forget to use your promo code.

00:15:02 ◼   ► It is available on your member page.

00:15:03 ◼   ► You go to ATP.fm/member,

00:15:05 ◼   ► and right at the top of that page,

00:15:06 ◼   ► you will see a section that says ATP store discount,

00:15:08 ◼   ► and it will have a little code,

00:15:09 ◼   ► and you can copy it and paste it into the thing.

00:15:11 ◼   ► But this year we're trying something new.

00:15:14 ◼   ► If you are logged into ATP.fm,

00:15:16 ◼   ► like if you can go to your member page

00:15:17 ◼   ► and see your membership account in your email,

00:15:19 ◼   ► that means you're logged in.

00:15:20 ◼   ► We know who you are.

00:15:21 ◼   ► If you are logged into ATP.fm

00:15:22 ◼   ► or if you log into ATP.fm to see your member page,

00:15:25 ◼   ► and then you go to the store page

00:15:26 ◼   ► and click through on any of these products,

00:15:28 ◼   ► we will attempt to stick your discount code

00:15:31 ◼   ► into your cart for you. - Oh, this is news.

00:15:34 ◼   ► - If it doesn't work, just copy and paste it.

00:15:36 ◼   ► Like the old ways always work,

00:15:38 ◼   ► but what we're trying to avoid is a situation where people,

00:15:40 ◼   ► oh, I forgot to copy and paste my discount code.

00:15:43 ◼   ► And then we have to give them the discount retroactively,

00:15:45 ◼   ► and it's a big hassle and everything, right?

00:15:47 ◼   ► So try to remember to copy and paste the code,

00:15:49 ◼   ► but if you don't, it should auto-populate.

00:15:51 ◼   ► You'll be able to tell.

00:15:52 ◼   ► It'll show when you're in the cart,

00:15:53 ◼   ► when you do the checkout.

00:15:54 ◼   ► If you see the promo code area,

00:15:56 ◼   ► if there's something already filled in for you,

00:15:58 ◼   ► that's because we got it by you being logged in.

00:16:00 ◼   ► So again, you can go to ATP.fm,

00:16:02 ◼   ► log into your thing, go to the store page,

00:16:05 ◼   ► and then click through on any of the products,

00:16:06 ◼   ► and we will try to put the discount code in your thing.

00:16:09 ◼   ► And I guess bearing the lead here,

00:16:11 ◼   ► how do you get all this stuff?

00:16:12 ◼   ► ATP.fm/store.

00:16:15 ◼   ► That's where all this stuff is.

00:16:16 ◼   ► That's our landing page, ATP.fm/store.

00:16:19 ◼   ► If you go there and you are logged into your member account

00:16:21 ◼   ► and clicked through on any product,

00:16:22 ◼   ► your discount code will be used.

00:16:24 ◼   ► And if you aren't a member and want to join for one month

00:16:27 ◼   ► to get a 15% discount, you can do so at ATP.fm/join.

00:16:31 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:16:32 ◼   ► Just a couple of quick notes.

00:16:33 ◼   ► First of all, this is still a cotton bureau behind the scenes

00:16:37 ◼   ► so for Europeans, we genuinely are very sorry,

00:16:40 ◼   ► but it is expensive.

00:16:41 ◼   ► If it's not for you, if you don't want to buy this time,

00:16:44 ◼   ► that's totally fine.

00:16:46 ◼   ► It would also make us feel a little better

00:16:48 ◼   ► if you did join at ATP.fm/join,

00:16:50 ◼   ► but we don't have to do that either.

00:16:51 ◼   ► But we get it, it's expensive.

00:16:53 ◼   ► I understand, I'm sorry.

00:16:55 ◼   ► We've been laying into cotton bureau constantly

00:16:57 ◼   ► to ask them to open up a European office

00:16:59 ◼   ► and they've told us maybe one day.

00:17:01 ◼   ► So today is not that day.

00:17:02 ◼   ► - Although one option since we are on WWDC season,

00:17:05 ◼   ► I know this is very rare, but it has happened in the past.

00:17:08 ◼   ► Sometimes if you are going to be,

00:17:10 ◼   ► if you are living outside the US

00:17:11 ◼   ► and you're going to be attending WWDC in person, lucky you,

00:17:15 ◼   ► and you know somebody else who lives in the US

00:17:17 ◼   ► who's also gonna be at WWDC, have them order it

00:17:20 ◼   ► and then just meet up at WWDC.

00:17:21 ◼   ► Like have them order it and ship it to themselves

00:17:23 ◼   ► in the US with US shipping, and then just meet up at WWDC

00:17:26 ◼   ► and have them give you your order

00:17:27 ◼   ► and then just take it back with you when you fly home.

00:17:28 ◼   ► - Well, and we wouldn't want to encourage our listeners

00:17:32 ◼   ► to commit tax fraud, so check your local laws,

00:17:34 ◼   ► but everyone does that.

00:17:35 ◼   ► - I think they're gonna be prosecuted

00:17:36 ◼   ► for ringing her one t-shirt.

00:17:38 ◼   ► - Hey, Europe's been pretty aggressive recently.

00:17:40 ◼   ► - Either way, definitely do what you think is best

00:17:43 ◼   ► and what you think is right, but one way or another,

00:17:46 ◼   ► this is my favorite part.

00:17:47 ◼   ► You have until the 28th of April, Sunday,

00:17:50 ◼   ► the 28th of April, ATP time.

00:17:53 ◼   ► Here's the moment where you're driving or you're walking

00:17:57 ◼   ► or you're somehow listening to us.

00:17:58 ◼   ► And what you're gonna do is you're gonna use

00:17:59 ◼   ► your turn signal because you're not an animal

00:18:02 ◼   ► if you're driving, or you're just going to move yourself

00:18:05 ◼   ► to the right-hand side or whatever of the walkway

00:18:08 ◼   ► that you're on, pull over if you will,

00:18:10 ◼   ► and you'll go to ATP.fm/store

00:18:12 ◼   ► and you'll place that order right now.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Why you place that order right now?

00:18:15 ◼   ► Because every time, every single flippin' time,

00:18:19 ◼   ► the store is closed for literally minutes or at most hours

00:18:23 ◼   ► and somebody says, "Oh my God, I missed it.

00:18:25 ◼   ► "I'm that one.

00:18:27 ◼   ► "Casey has said this to me all these years

00:18:29 ◼   ► "and now it's me, I'm that person."

00:18:31 ◼   ► - It happens.

00:18:32 ◼   ► - Don't do that, don't be that person.

00:18:34 ◼   ► Stop what you're doing right now.

00:18:36 ◼   ► Signal, get to the side of the road,

00:18:39 ◼   ► use your turn signals please.

00:18:40 ◼   ► If you're walking in Manhattan or something like that,

00:18:43 ◼   ► be aggressive as you get over to the right-hand side

00:18:46 ◼   ► because that's what you're supposed to do,

00:18:47 ◼   ► but then get out of the damn way

00:18:49 ◼   ► and go to ATP.fm/store, place your order,

00:18:51 ◼   ► make sure you use your member's discount if applicable.

00:18:54 ◼   ► Thank you so much.

00:18:55 ◼   ► We will remind you of this next couple of weeks,

00:18:57 ◼   ► but again, until Sunday the 28th.

00:19:00 ◼   ► John, as always, thank you for all your work on this.

00:19:01 ◼   ► I am very excited for this lineup.

00:19:03 ◼   ► This is, I think, far and away

00:19:05 ◼   ► the most different options we've had,

00:19:06 ◼   ► both in terms of different items

00:19:09 ◼   ► and in terms of flavors of each item.

00:19:11 ◼   ► We're trying to do our best here

00:19:12 ◼   ► to give you whatever options you want.

00:19:14 ◼   ► - Try to diversify people's wardrobes.

00:19:16 ◼   ► You won't just have podcast t-shirts,

00:19:17 ◼   ► now you'll have podcast long sleeve t-shirts.

00:19:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:19:22 ◼   ► - Podcast tank tops, podcast baseball hats,

00:19:24 ◼   ► we got you covered.

00:19:25 ◼   ► - Podcast the flamethrower. - Podcast the flamethrower.

00:19:27 ◼   ► There we go, thank you, John.

00:19:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:19:30 ◼   ► All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:19:32 ◼   ► The unpatchable M-series exploit explanatory video.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I don't know if this made the edit or not,

00:19:38 ◼   ► but there was a link in the show notes

00:19:40 ◼   ► where there was an explanatory video

00:19:42 ◼   ► and in between the time that John had put it

00:19:44 ◼   ► in the show notes and when I started getting

00:19:46 ◼   ► the released version of the show notes ready,

00:19:49 ◼   ► that video went private and I don't know,

00:19:51 ◼   ► John, is this the same one that you would watch

00:19:53 ◼   ► or a different one, but one way or another,

00:19:54 ◼   ► we've got a video for you.

00:19:55 ◼   ► - It is the same video.

00:19:56 ◼   ► So I was so disappointed that it went private

00:19:58 ◼   ► 'cause I thought the video was great

00:19:59 ◼   ► and sure enough, I clicked on it

00:19:59 ◼   ► the last time we were recording.

00:20:01 ◼   ► I'm like, ah, I don't know,

00:20:02 ◼   ► maybe they took it down or something.

00:20:03 ◼   ► But after the show, I'm like, I need to find that video.

00:20:06 ◼   ► Because why would they have taken it down?

00:20:08 ◼   ► And sure enough, it exists, it's on the same channel,

00:20:10 ◼   ► it's the same exact video I was trying to link to.

00:20:12 ◼   ► Maybe it was just something wrong with the video

00:20:13 ◼   ► and YouTube doesn't let you update videos,

00:20:15 ◼   ► you just have to delete it and make a new one.

00:20:17 ◼   ► So anyway, we will have a link in the show notes.

00:20:19 ◼   ► It is from the Molly Rocket channel.

00:20:21 ◼   ► It describes what is known as the Go Fetch Attack

00:20:24 ◼   ► on the M-series of System on the Chips.

00:20:28 ◼   ► And it is a great video if you actually wanna know

00:20:32 ◼   ► what is happening inside the chip.

00:20:34 ◼   ► It is explained well enough that if you actually care,

00:20:37 ◼   ► anybody can watch it and understand.

00:20:39 ◼   ► And like I said, this is a specific instance

00:20:41 ◼   ► of a common pattern of attacking chips,

00:20:44 ◼   ► but this particular one is pretty weird.

00:20:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is a very good video.

00:20:48 ◼   ► It is an hour long, so buckle up.

00:20:50 ◼   ► But it does a very good job.

00:20:51 ◼   ► If you have even a passing knowledge of how computers

00:20:54 ◼   ► and computer science works,

00:20:56 ◼   ► I think it'll be very palatable and understandable.

00:20:58 ◼   ► I know nothing about security-related things.

00:21:01 ◼   ► And the person who hosts the video is coming at it

00:21:03 ◼   ► from a microarchitecture perspective,

00:21:05 ◼   ► not from a security perspective.

00:21:06 ◼   ► And so they do a really good job of kind of distilling it

00:21:10 ◼   ► down to the brass tacks, and it is very good.

00:21:13 ◼   ► Hector Martin found the chicken bit.

00:21:15 ◼   ► I've never even heard of a chicken bit before.

00:21:17 ◼   ► This was news to me.

00:21:18 ◼   ► So John, tell me about this.

00:21:20 ◼   ► - The DMP-disabled chicken bit.

00:21:21 ◼   ► So DMP is, I have that in here, what is it called?

00:21:26 ◼   ► - Data Memory Dependent Prefecture.

00:21:27 ◼   ► You have it like 10 lines down from where you're looking.

00:21:30 ◼   ► - DMP is the feature that this security exploit is exploiting

00:21:34 ◼   ► and chicken bits are bits in a silicon chip

00:21:38 ◼   ► that allow you to disable some feature

00:21:40 ◼   ► if you're not sure about it, right?

00:21:42 ◼   ► So if you're designing a chip, you're like,

00:21:43 ◼   ► well, we think this thing is, this feature is a good idea,

00:21:47 ◼   ► but if there's ever any problem with it,

00:21:48 ◼   ► like it has a performance problem or there's a bug

00:21:50 ◼   ► or there's a security flaw, if you just flip this bit,

00:21:53 ◼   ► the chip will just disable that entire feature.

00:21:55 ◼   ► So apparently there is a chicken bit for DMP.

00:21:59 ◼   ► Hector Martin found it.

00:22:00 ◼   ► This is from a post I'm asking, I think.

00:22:03 ◼   ► He says, one interesting finding is that the DMP

00:22:06 ◼   ► is already disabled in EL2 and presumably EL1.

00:22:09 ◼   ► It only works in EL0.

00:22:11 ◼   ► So the EL things are exception levels

00:22:14 ◼   ► in the ARM microarchitecture.

00:22:16 ◼   ► This is from a page that we'll link.

00:22:18 ◼   ► The ARMv8 architecture defines four exception levels,

00:22:20 ◼   ► EL0 to EL3, where EL3 is the highest exception level

00:22:23 ◼   ► with the most execution privilege.

00:22:25 ◼   ► And here's the common usage.

00:22:26 ◼   ► EL0 is where applications run.

00:22:28 ◼   ► EL1 is for OS kernels and associated functions

00:22:31 ◼   ► that are typically described as privileged.

00:22:32 ◼   ► EL2 is the hypervisor and EL3 is secure monitor.

00:22:35 ◼   ► I don't even know what that is,

00:22:37 ◼   ► but that's what the webpage said.

00:22:38 ◼   ► So apparently DMP, this data memory dependent prefetcher

00:22:43 ◼   ► is disabled for the kernel.

00:22:46 ◼   ► So what Hector says is,

00:22:47 ◼   ► it looks like the CPU designers already had some idea

00:22:51 ◼   ► that it is a security liability

00:22:53 ◼   ► and chose to hard disable it in kernel mode.

00:22:55 ◼   ► That means kernel mode crypto on Linux

00:22:56 ◼   ► is already intrinsically safe.

00:22:58 ◼   ► And this data memory dependent prefetcher

00:23:02 ◼   ► is a cache prefetcher that looks at cache memory content

00:23:05 ◼   ► for possible pointer values and prefetches data

00:23:08 ◼   ► at those locations in the cache

00:23:09 ◼   ► if it sees memory access patterns

00:23:10 ◼   ► that suggests that would be useful.

00:23:12 ◼   ► So it looks at a number and says,

00:23:14 ◼   ► that number looks like it might be a pointer.

00:23:16 ◼   ► I should go treat it as a pointer

00:23:18 ◼   ► and grab the data that's at that location.

00:23:21 ◼   ► And if you watch the video,

00:23:22 ◼   ► you'll see how that's exploited to detect

00:23:24 ◼   ► what another process is doing on the CPU.

00:23:27 ◼   ► There's some more stuff that other people turned up about DMP

00:23:29 ◼   ► like there's a, aside from the chicken bit for disabling it,

00:23:33 ◼   ► there's like a command I think on the M3

00:23:34 ◼   ► where you can just turn it off.

00:23:36 ◼   ► Like you would imagine on the M3,

00:23:37 ◼   ► you could turn off the MP, do your encryption stuff

00:23:40 ◼   ► and then turn it back on to like avoid this issue.

00:23:41 ◼   ► But I think the M1 and M2 don't have that command.

00:23:44 ◼   ► They just have this chicken bit

00:23:45 ◼   ► which disables it entirely in particular modes.

00:23:48 ◼   ► So anyway, CPU designers are fairly conservative

00:23:53 ◼   ► and cautious and that's why things

00:23:55 ◼   ► that are quote unquote unpatchable

00:23:57 ◼   ► usually have some kind of work around.

00:23:59 ◼   ► Sometimes the work arounds have performance problems.

00:24:01 ◼   ► Sometimes the work arounds are painful and annoying

00:24:04 ◼   ► and require software changes.

00:24:05 ◼   ► But usually there's something that can be done

00:24:08 ◼   ► and I'm assuming Apple is,

00:24:10 ◼   ► I don't think Apple's commented on this at all.

00:24:12 ◼   ► But since it is better in the M3

00:24:14 ◼   ► than it was in the M2 and M1,

00:24:15 ◼   ► maybe they already knew about it

00:24:16 ◼   ► and they have these bits to deal with.

00:24:18 ◼   ► So hopefully OS updates will help with this in the future.

00:24:21 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:24:22 ◼   ► A lot of people wrote in last episode

00:24:24 ◼   ► and they did so because they were trying to help.

00:24:27 ◼   ► And there's a charitable read on this

00:24:30 ◼   ► which is that they are all members

00:24:32 ◼   ► who have gone to in the past atp.fm/join

00:24:35 ◼   ► and they were listening to the bootleg

00:24:37 ◼   ► which does not have robust show notes.

00:24:39 ◼   ► But one way or another, a lot of people wrote in to say,

00:24:42 ◼   ► and Alan Pope was one of the first,

00:24:44 ◼   ► last episode you guys briefly mentioned

00:24:45 ◼   ► weird square monitors.

00:24:46 ◼   ► I wonder if the LG dual up 28 inch 16 by 18 ratio display

00:24:49 ◼   ► may be the one you were thinking of.

00:24:50 ◼   ► It is.

00:24:51 ◼   ► And I said verbally on the show,

00:24:54 ◼   ► oh there's that one weird squarish monitor

00:24:56 ◼   ► that people have been talking about recently

00:24:59 ◼   ► and then I kind of let it go.

00:25:00 ◼   ► But during the course of the recording of that episode,

00:25:03 ◼   ► I think somebody in the chat room found it

00:25:04 ◼   ► and I put the link in the show notes.

00:25:06 ◼   ► So the uncharitable read is none of you,

00:25:09 ◼   ► pains in my butt, clicked on the,

00:25:11 ◼   ► looked at the show notes to see that it was already there.

00:25:13 ◼   ► But the charitable read is you're just all bootleg listeners.

00:25:15 ◼   ► So anyways, we will put it in this episode

00:25:19 ◼   ► show notes as well.

00:25:20 ◼   ► But it was indeed the LG dual up 28 inch

00:25:24 ◼   ► that I was thinking of.

00:25:25 ◼   ► - You know, it's an audio podcast.

00:25:26 ◼   ► People aren't looking at the show notes.

00:25:27 ◼   ► Although I have to say,

00:25:28 ◼   ► I don't know why I continue to be fooled by this,

00:25:30 ◼   ► but did I complain about this show already?

00:25:33 ◼   ► I don't think I did.

00:25:34 ◼   ► I was listening to a famous podcast,

00:25:36 ◼   ► The Shower Rain, named this mostly

00:25:37 ◼   ► because I can't remember what it was.

00:25:39 ◼   ► And they were talking,

00:25:40 ◼   ► they were talking out,

00:25:41 ◼   ► but it's a really popular podcast

00:25:43 ◼   ► and they were talking at length about--

00:25:44 ◼   ► - Security through forgetfulness.

00:25:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, about an image that they were looking at.

00:25:47 ◼   ► And they're like, don't worry, this image will be,

00:25:49 ◼   ► you'll be able to see it.

00:25:50 ◼   ► Like, and there was actually two versions of this image

00:25:52 ◼   ► says don't worry, we'll put the more detailed versions

00:25:54 ◼   ► of this image if you just go to our webpage

00:25:56 ◼   ► and they gave a URL and they're like,

00:25:58 ◼   ► in your podcast player, like right now,

00:25:59 ◼   ► we're looking at it and you can't see it,

00:26:00 ◼   ► but like by the time the podcast goes up,

00:26:02 ◼   ► you'll be able to see this image.

00:26:03 ◼   ► So everyone go and look at this image right now.

00:26:05 ◼   ► And let me tell you, I tried to find that image.

00:26:08 ◼   ► The URL they read had nothing on it.

00:26:10 ◼   ► Notes in the podcast client, absolutely nothing.

00:26:12 ◼   ► And when I say nothing,

00:26:13 ◼   ► I don't mean there was nothing there.

00:26:14 ◼   ► I mean, it was a bunch of like SEO garbage come on,

00:26:18 ◼   ► like just random generic texts

00:26:20 ◼   ► that had nothing to do with the episode, right?

00:26:22 ◼   ► Like you see sometimes in YouTube videos

00:26:23 ◼   ► where every single YouTube video in a channel

00:26:24 ◼   ► will have the same garbage tech pasted into the description.

00:26:27 ◼   ► That has nothing to do with the video.

00:26:29 ◼   ► They spent so long talking about this image.

00:26:31 ◼   ► No chapter images, no show notes, website had nothing on it.

00:26:35 ◼   ► No URL I could go to, go to the top level of the website,

00:26:37 ◼   ► try to find the thing, Google, whatever.

00:26:39 ◼   ► I don't know what it is with podcasts.

00:26:42 ◼   ► Like they have 60 people, a person's staff

00:26:44 ◼   ► making their podcast and they can't put an image

00:26:47 ◼   ► in show notes, so anyway, this link will be in the show notes.

00:26:50 ◼   ► - There are two different worlds of podcasting.

00:26:52 ◼   ► Like there's probably more than that honestly,

00:26:53 ◼   ► but like there's at least two different worlds of podcasting.

00:26:55 ◼   ► The first world of podcasting is these high production,

00:27:00 ◼   ► high staff, high budget shows.

00:27:03 ◼   ► They're all hosted on megaphone, they're all using DAI,

00:27:07 ◼   ► they're all using the same backend tools,

00:27:09 ◼   ► they all have these big productions

00:27:11 ◼   ► and so they put huge amounts of money

00:27:13 ◼   ► into the usually writing and editing

00:27:17 ◼   ► and production of the podcast.

00:27:20 ◼   ► But then all of these basics of the podcasting format,

00:27:23 ◼   ► they don't ever participate in.

00:27:26 ◼   ► They've never used good show notes,

00:27:28 ◼   ► which are very easy to do.

00:27:30 ◼   ► Their tools don't even support them, they don't care.

00:27:34 ◼   ► They certainly have never used chapters.

00:27:36 ◼   ► Back in the day it's because they didn't know they existed.

00:27:39 ◼   ► Now they probably still don't know they exist,

00:27:41 ◼   ► but now their DAI tools like megaphone don't support.

00:27:44 ◼   ► Like on the Vergecast, which is actually a pretty good show,

00:27:46 ◼   ► I enjoy it, but on the Vergecast,

00:27:48 ◼   ► they were just complaining this week

00:27:50 ◼   ► how megaphone doesn't support chapters

00:27:51 ◼   ► and they keep getting requests from listeners

00:27:52 ◼   ► to add chapters and it must be hard to add chapters.

00:27:56 ◼   ► It's not.

00:27:57 ◼   ► DAI tools splice ads into the file.

00:28:01 ◼   ► So what they were saying was,

00:28:03 ◼   ► oh it must be hard to add them

00:28:04 ◼   ► because you don't know how long the ads are, which is true.

00:28:07 ◼   ► One of the ways DAI makes everything worse for everybody

00:28:11 ◼   ► is that timestamps are no longer consistent

00:28:13 ◼   ► between downloads because the ads that are injected

00:28:16 ◼   ► into each download could be different durations.

00:28:18 ◼   ► So if you are trying to say share a clip of a podcast

00:28:21 ◼   ► at a certain timestamp, you don't really have a way to know

00:28:25 ◼   ► whether someone else's future download of that episode

00:28:28 ◼   ► will have the timestamp lining up with the content

00:28:31 ◼   ► that you want because it might have had

00:28:33 ◼   ► a different length ad inserted before it than what you have.

00:28:36 ◼   ► But the thing is they know this at download time.

00:28:38 ◼   ► You know where chapters are?

00:28:40 ◼   ► In the MP3, in the header.

00:28:43 ◼   ► You know what you have to modify

00:28:44 ◼   ► when you use DAI to splice an MP3?

00:28:47 ◼   ► The header.

00:28:48 ◼   ► So they're already, well, they don't always modify

00:28:51 ◼   ► the header but you're supposed to.

00:28:52 ◼   ► It makes certain things work better.

00:28:54 ◼   ► But the early DAI platforms did a very bad job

00:28:58 ◼   ► 'cause MP3s are so easy you can just kind of

00:28:59 ◼   ► stick them together and they work.

00:29:01 ◼   ► But anyway, so the point is at serving time,

00:29:05 ◼   ► they know what they're putting into the MP3

00:29:07 ◼   ► so they can just offset the timestamps

00:29:10 ◼   ► of the chapter markers in the file

00:29:12 ◼   ► to account for the ads they're inserting at that time

00:29:15 ◼   ► as they write the header of the file.

00:29:17 ◼   ► - That sounds like it might involve addition though.

00:29:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, or maybe subtraction.

00:29:20 ◼   ► It depends on how you're doing it.

00:29:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know if computers can do that.

00:29:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, either way, it's so easy.

00:29:26 ◼   ► The only reason they don't do it is that

00:29:28 ◼   ► the people who write these tools

00:29:30 ◼   ► don't even know chapters exist.

00:29:31 ◼   ► And I understand from the point of view

00:29:33 ◼   ► of a big podcast publisher,

00:29:35 ◼   ► regular people don't want this, we don't need this.

00:29:38 ◼   ► But I cannot tell you, first of all,

00:29:40 ◼   ► how many regular people do find it useful.

00:29:43 ◼   ► That's why things like YouTube support chapters.

00:29:46 ◼   ► There's a reason they added chapters

00:29:48 ◼   ► that people find useful.

00:29:48 ◼   ► Second of all, everybody always comes up

00:29:52 ◼   ► with some crazy idea for some new podcast spec

00:29:56 ◼   ► that we should all implement for something

00:29:58 ◼   ► that can be solved already with chapters

00:30:00 ◼   ► we've had for like 20 years.

00:30:01 ◼   ► It's like, there's so many,

00:30:03 ◼   ► you wouldn't believe how many pitches I've heard

00:30:05 ◼   ► for some new standard.

00:30:06 ◼   ► We're gonna make this new standard, it's gonna be great.

00:30:08 ◼   ► We're gonna have the ability to show timed metadata

00:30:12 ◼   ► during playback of a podcast.

00:30:14 ◼   ► - Amazing.

00:30:15 ◼   ► - And guess what, we can do that already.

00:30:17 ◼   ► We can show timed images, timed links, timed text,

00:30:20 ◼   ► all of that with specs that already exist

00:30:22 ◼   ► and are supported by pretty much every podcast app out there,

00:30:25 ◼   ► including Apple Podcasts.

00:30:27 ◼   ► So that already, but no one knows.

00:30:29 ◼   ► And then third of all, it blows my mind,

00:30:32 ◼   ► why don't they do this for their own commercial gain?

00:30:35 ◼   ► When they insert an ad,

00:30:37 ◼   ► why don't they insert the image of the sponsor

00:30:40 ◼   ► with a link right there as a chapter?

00:30:41 ◼   ► I don't understand, like,

00:30:43 ◼   ► there's reasons they would benefit directly from it.

00:30:46 ◼   ► But I think ultimately the cause of all of this

00:30:49 ◼   ► is that there's always been this

00:30:51 ◼   ► kind of underlying problem in big podcasting.

00:30:57 ◼   ► It started out as kind of a disrespect of the medium

00:30:59 ◼   ► that for a long time podcasts were so looked down upon,

00:31:03 ◼   ► similar to how blogs were looked down upon by old media,

00:31:07 ◼   ► podcasts were so looked down upon

00:31:08 ◼   ► that people would put podcasts out there

00:31:11 ◼   ► and then make a point of saying, "I don't listen to podcasts."

00:31:14 ◼   ► As if that was some kind of bragging thing.

00:31:16 ◼   ► Like, imagine if you wrote books for a living

00:31:19 ◼   ► and you said, "Oh, I don't read."

00:31:21 ◼   ► Like, that's ridiculous,

00:31:22 ◼   ► but podcasting was looked down upon,

00:31:24 ◼   ► so there was this kind of attitude from early on

00:31:26 ◼   ► among big companies and big publishers

00:31:28 ◼   ► and even big media people of like,

00:31:30 ◼   ► "Oh, I don't listen to podcasts.

00:31:31 ◼   ► "I'll put a podcast out there

00:31:32 ◼   ► "'cause I wanna take everyone's time and money,

00:31:34 ◼   ► "but I don't listen to podcasts."

00:31:35 ◼   ► And what that resulted in over time

00:31:37 ◼   ► is a lot of that kind of big podcasting industry stuff,

00:31:41 ◼   ► a lot of those people and the tech stacks

00:31:44 ◼   ► and all the stuff that we built upon

00:31:47 ◼   ► comes from people who don't really listen to podcasts.

00:31:52 ◼   ► First, there was a disrespect to the medium.

00:31:54 ◼   ► Now, I think the disrespect is gone now,

00:31:55 ◼   ► but now it's just like more of an unfamiliarity

00:31:58 ◼   ► with the medium.

00:31:59 ◼   ► And so the people who make these tools

00:32:01 ◼   ► have no clue that any of these options exist.

00:32:04 ◼   ► So then that's one world of podcasting.

00:32:07 ◼   ► That world of podcasting thinks

00:32:10 ◼   ► it is the only world of podcasting.

00:32:11 ◼   ► This is a separate problem.

00:32:13 ◼   ► Shows up in a lot of different ways.

00:32:14 ◼   ► But those people who make and listen to those kind of shows

00:32:18 ◼   ► typically think that's all of podcasting.

00:32:21 ◼   ► And the wonderful thing about this medium

00:32:22 ◼   ► is that it's such a bigger medium than that

00:32:24 ◼   ► and there's all these other shows out there

00:32:26 ◼   ► like what we make and what a bunch of people we know make

00:32:28 ◼   ► and what millions of people we don't know make.

00:32:31 ◼   ► It is a huge, wonderful world

00:32:33 ◼   ► and the rest of us can have things like show notes

00:32:37 ◼   ► and links and chapters and artwork

00:32:41 ◼   ► and we can enjoy these technologies

00:32:43 ◼   ► and the rest of the podcast world

00:32:45 ◼   ► will never know about them

00:32:47 ◼   ► and they are doing their listeners

00:32:48 ◼   ► and themselves a great disservice,

00:32:50 ◼   ► but we will never convince them to use them

00:32:52 ◼   ► because they don't even think we exist.

00:32:54 ◼   ► - It makes me wonder what the people on the show,

00:32:55 ◼   ► like all the hosts of the show seem sure

00:32:58 ◼   ► that they knew not only that this image would be linked,

00:33:01 ◼   ► but that they knew the URL to it and they were wrong.

00:33:04 ◼   ► They were entirely wrong.

00:33:05 ◼   ► So maybe they've never looked at their own podcast

00:33:07 ◼   ► and don't realize that the people who produce their show

00:33:09 ◼   ► stop as soon as the audio is done

00:33:10 ◼   ► and never do another thing after that,

00:33:12 ◼   ► but anyway, frustrating.

00:33:14 ◼   ► I never did find the image.

00:33:15 ◼   ► The end of the story is I never did find it.

00:33:17 ◼   ► If it's on the internet, I literally could not find it

00:33:20 ◼   ► because so much of the show was looking at this image

00:33:23 ◼   ► and making jokes about it or whatever, couldn't find it.

00:33:25 ◼   ► - You know what I would have done in your shoes,

00:33:27 ◼   ► which is ridiculous that this is how

00:33:29 ◼   ► I would have solved the problem,

00:33:30 ◼   ► but I probably would have found the subreddit

00:33:32 ◼   ► for that particular podcast because you said it was popular

00:33:35 ◼   ► and I guarantee, and I mean, rolling your eyes about Reddit,

00:33:38 ◼   ► I'm here for it, I get it, but I bet you anything

00:33:41 ◼   ► that would have come up with the image,

00:33:43 ◼   ► the people, the Redditors, what have you,

00:33:45 ◼   ► in that subreddit would have come up with the image

00:33:47 ◼   ► and made a thread about it and put a link up,

00:33:50 ◼   ► all to do, all of this work to do something

00:33:52 ◼   ► that should be table stakes.

00:33:53 ◼   ► I don't know, occasionally I'll get asked,

00:33:57 ◼   ► I can't think of a way to phrase this

00:33:58 ◼   ► without sounding like I'm tooting my own horn here,

00:34:00 ◼   ► but I'll get asked, how did you become successful

00:34:04 ◼   ► at podcasting or how did you become successful

00:34:05 ◼   ► at this or that and not to say I'm always successful,

00:34:07 ◼   ► by any means, let's talk about fast text and my icon design,

00:34:10 ◼   ► but occasionally I've gotten lucky

00:34:12 ◼   ► and I've come up with something decent

00:34:15 ◼   ► and the consistent thing that I think the three of us share

00:34:19 ◼   ► in both this show and in our other endeavors

00:34:23 ◼   ► is just giving a crap.

00:34:24 ◼   ► Like, you'd be surprised that just by giving a crap,

00:34:29 ◼   ► you're gonna be better than almost everyone around you.

00:34:31 ◼   ► I feel like Marco, you've made this speech in the past,

00:34:33 ◼   ► but just give a crap, just care,

00:34:36 ◼   ► and you're already better than almost anyone around you.

00:34:39 ◼   ► It's not table stakes, my friends, just care,

00:34:42 ◼   ► just give a crap and you'll be so much better

00:34:45 ◼   ► than almost everyone around you.

00:34:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, and job interviews, competition,

00:34:48 ◼   ► any place where you are competing with other people

00:34:50 ◼   ► for professional success in some way,

00:34:53 ◼   ► like if you just care, you will be ahead

00:34:56 ◼   ► of the vast majority by a surprising and sad amount.

00:35:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, just don't phone it in

00:35:02 ◼   ► and you'll be toward the top of the pack.

00:35:04 ◼   ► You may not be number one,

00:35:05 ◼   ► but you'll be toward the top of the pack.

00:35:06 ◼   ► Yes, I'm sure there's exceptions

00:35:08 ◼   ► and the things that would prove that this isn't true,

00:35:12 ◼   ► but by and large, just give a crap.

00:35:15 ◼   ► That's all you need to do, just give a crap.

00:35:17 ◼   ► Anyway, how did that happen?

00:35:18 ◼   ► We got off on a tangent there.

00:35:19 ◼   ► That's okay, though, it's accidental.

00:35:21 ◼   ► - That's what happens when John

00:35:22 ◼   ► doesn't find out an image in show notes. (laughs)

00:35:25 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:35:26 ◼   ► We are brought to you this episode by SwiftCraft.

00:35:29 ◼   ► SwiftCraft is a brand new conference

00:35:31 ◼   ► for Swift and iOS developers in the UK, Europe, and beyond.

00:35:35 ◼   ► Running in May, that's next month,

00:35:38 ◼   ► and it's set right by the sea

00:35:39 ◼   ► with fantastic views across the English Channel,

00:35:41 ◼   ► this event has the feel of a code retreat.

00:35:44 ◼   ► If you like the windows of Syracuse County,

00:35:46 ◼   ► I love an in-joke for our show,

00:35:48 ◼   ► you're gonna love the windows at their venue.

00:35:50 ◼   ► With 28 sessions and two keynotes

00:35:52 ◼   ► over the two main conference days,

00:35:54 ◼   ► a full day workshops day with three workshops,

00:35:57 ◼   ► and tutorials day with eight half-day workshops,

00:36:00 ◼   ► there's plenty of content to keep you engaged,

00:36:02 ◼   ► educated, and entertained.

00:36:04 ◼   ► What better time to focus on the craft of writing Swift

00:36:07 ◼   ► than just before WWDC has us all chasing new APIs again?

00:36:11 ◼   ► I love this focus, by the way,

00:36:12 ◼   ► this is such a great idea, such great timing,

00:36:15 ◼   ► and I love a conference at a beautiful venue.

00:36:17 ◼   ► That to me is, if I'm gonna go to a conference,

00:36:19 ◼   ► it has to have a nice view or some other nice venue

00:36:23 ◼   ► because it's so much nicer that way.

00:36:25 ◼   ► So, also some of the community's best speakers

00:36:27 ◼   ► are on their schedule, led by keynotes

00:36:29 ◼   ► from Daniel Steinberg and Jessica Kerr,

00:36:31 ◼   ► better known as Jessatron.

00:36:32 ◼   ► Daniel's running a workshop too,

00:36:34 ◼   ► along with Paul Hudson and John Reed.

00:36:36 ◼   ► So check out the full program at swiftcraft.uk

00:36:40 ◼   ► and use code ATP when you come to register for 10% off.

00:36:44 ◼   ► So once again, swiftcraft.uk,

00:36:47 ◼   ► use code ATP for registration for 10% off.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Swiftcraft for, first of all,

00:36:53 ◼   ► hosting a beautiful conference and beautiful venue,

00:36:55 ◼   ► again, love that, and also for sponsoring our show.

00:36:58 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:37:02 ◼   ► Matthias Woolard writes,

00:37:03 ◼   ► "Regarding the rumor of an M3 family chip

00:37:05 ◼   ► "with no efficiency cores,

00:37:07 ◼   ► "having some efficiency cores makes sense,

00:37:10 ◼   ► "since for highly threaded, multi-threaded tasks,

00:37:13 ◼   ► "an efficiency core can do more compute per transistor

00:37:16 ◼   ► "than a power core."

00:37:17 ◼   ► Tell me about this, John.

00:37:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was one point

00:37:19 ◼   ► that we didn't bring up the last time,

00:37:21 ◼   ► like, oh, well, why do you need efficiency cores?

00:37:22 ◼   ► You don't need to save energy.

00:37:23 ◼   ► Well, if your job is massively multi-threaded,

00:37:26 ◼   ► more cores are better, and as Sperson points out,

00:37:31 ◼   ► if you just have something that's a simple job

00:37:34 ◼   ► that doesn't require a power core,

00:37:35 ◼   ► that power core is wasted doing that job,

00:37:37 ◼   ► but you can do more compute per transistor

00:37:40 ◼   ► with an efficiency core than a power core.

00:37:42 ◼   ► So there's that.

00:37:43 ◼   ► I mean, historically, especially for the Mac Pro,

00:37:44 ◼   ► Apple has always offered their top-end thing,

00:37:47 ◼   ► their top-end chip in the Mac Pro in the past decade or so,

00:37:50 ◼   ► has always been the one with the most cores,

00:37:53 ◼   ► and that one usually actually is slower in single core,

00:37:56 ◼   ► especially in the old days,

00:37:57 ◼   ► but it makes up for it for being massively multi-core.

00:37:59 ◼   ► So that is a role efficiency cores could play

00:38:03 ◼   ► in a hypothetical, bigger-than-two-M3-Maxes-stuck-together chip

00:38:08 ◼   ► in the Mac Studio or the Mac Pro.

00:38:11 ◼   ► And on that topic, the Max Tech Channel on YouTube

00:38:14 ◼   ► had a bunch of rumors about this upcoming chips,

00:38:19 ◼   ► and the idea was that this new chip,

00:38:22 ◼   ► they're still on the idea that it's not gonna be

00:38:24 ◼   ► two M3-Maxes stuck together,

00:38:25 ◼   ► it'll be an entirely new chip,

00:38:27 ◼   ► and they're saying they think this new chip

00:38:28 ◼   ► will be built on M3e,

00:38:30 ◼   ► which if you've heard our show in past months,

00:38:32 ◼   ► you know is the three nanometer fabbing process

00:38:35 ◼   ► after the N3b process

00:38:37 ◼   ► that the current M3 series chips are made with,

00:38:40 ◼   ► and it will supposedly have higher yields.

00:38:42 ◼   ► So if you have a process that has higher yields,

00:38:44 ◼   ► that's good if you're gonna make a bigger chip,

00:38:46 ◼   ► because the bigger the chip you make,

00:38:47 ◼   ► the more chance you have to have errors in the chip.

00:38:50 ◼   ► And this was presented as a possibility

00:38:54 ◼   ► to avoid the situation where Apple rolls out new M chips,

00:38:59 ◼   ► like the M3 and the M3 Pro and the M3 Max,

00:39:04 ◼   ► but the quote unquote high-end chips

00:39:07 ◼   ► are still last year's model.

00:39:08 ◼   ► So right now, if you buy a Mac Studio,

00:39:09 ◼   ► it doesn't have an M3 anything in it,

00:39:11 ◼   ► it's got an M2 something in it.

00:39:13 ◼   ► And same thing with the Mac Pro,

00:39:14 ◼   ► it has M2 something in it.

00:39:16 ◼   ► And when the M3 Max is so powerful,

00:39:18 ◼   ► in some tests it can best the supposedly better Pro Max,

00:39:22 ◼   ► because the lower end computers have the M3 chip,

00:39:26 ◼   ► but the higher end ones don't.

00:39:27 ◼   ► Now, one way to solve that would be

00:39:29 ◼   ► release the chips closer to each other.

00:39:30 ◼   ► So yeah, you release the M3, then the M3 Pro,

00:39:33 ◼   ► then the Max, then the Ultra, then the Extreme.

00:39:35 ◼   ► If you do that in fairly short succession

00:39:37 ◼   ► within the course of a few months, nobody really cares.

00:39:38 ◼   ► But if you leave the Studio and the Mac Pro languishing

00:39:41 ◼   ► with the M2 chips for a long period of time,

00:39:43 ◼   ► makes them look kind of crappy

00:39:44 ◼   ► and makes them look less attractive.

00:39:46 ◼   ► I don't know if Apple cares about that,

00:39:48 ◼   ► that was just a theory presented here.

00:39:49 ◼   ► And that theory was presented in the context of saying,

00:39:53 ◼   ► and maybe at WWC presumably,

00:39:55 ◼   ► when Apple comes out with the new Mac Studio and Mac Pro,

00:39:58 ◼   ► the chip that's in them will be a brand new chip

00:40:01 ◼   ► that we haven't seen before,

00:40:03 ◼   ► not two M3 Maxes stuck together, right?

00:40:06 ◼   ► And they'll actually call it M4,

00:40:08 ◼   ► because it'll be made with the M3e process,

00:40:10 ◼   ► and the M3e process is not compatible

00:40:12 ◼   ► with the M3b designs, right?

00:40:14 ◼   ► So if they're gonna fab something in M3,

00:40:16 ◼   ► they have to redesign anyway.

00:40:19 ◼   ► Names like M3 and M3r are marketing decisions,

00:40:21 ◼   ► have nothing to do with technology really,

00:40:22 ◼   ► it's just up to Apple what they do.

00:40:24 ◼   ► So I'm not putting much stake in that.

00:40:26 ◼   ► It would seem pretty weird for me to go,

00:40:28 ◼   ► to skip the M3 generation for the high-end chips

00:40:30 ◼   ► and go to M4, but maybe it'd be a marketing coup and say,

00:40:32 ◼   ► "Hey, we, you know, they're leaping ahead

00:40:34 ◼   ► 'cause they're such great, you know,

00:40:36 ◼   ► high-end chips for high-end Pro Max or whatever."

00:40:39 ◼   ► Setting that aside, another topic that came up

00:40:41 ◼   ► related to this in this discussions

00:40:43 ◼   ► that we're having online since last week's episode,

00:40:46 ◼   ► was the reticle limit,

00:40:47 ◼   ► which is how big a thing can you make on a silicon wafer

00:40:52 ◼   ► at three nanometers with TSMC's process?

00:40:55 ◼   ► You can't make something like, you know,

00:40:57 ◼   ► 12 inches by 12 inches or whatever.

00:40:59 ◼   ► Like there is a limit to how big a thing that you can make.

00:41:02 ◼   ► You can make a bunch of them on a wafer,

00:41:03 ◼   ► but each one of those things has a certain size

00:41:06 ◼   ► and it can't be any bigger than that size

00:41:07 ◼   ► due to the way they do the lithography

00:41:08 ◼   ► with the extreme ultraviolet, blah, blah, blah, right?

00:41:12 ◼   ► I don't know what the reticle limit is

00:41:15 ◼   ► for TSMC's three nanometer process.

00:41:17 ◼   ► The best I could find was somewhere online,

00:41:20 ◼   ► somebody said 858 square millimeters.

00:41:23 ◼   ► That's the best I could do.

00:41:25 ◼   ► I couldn't find any authoritative,

00:41:26 ◼   ► maybe it's secret proprietary information,

00:41:28 ◼   ► maybe I'm just looking at the wrong websites.

00:41:29 ◼   ► But anyway, 850 millimeters squared,

00:41:33 ◼   ► probably in that ballpark.

00:41:34 ◼   ► And to give a comparison,

00:41:35 ◼   ► the plain old M3 is 146 millimeters squared.

00:41:38 ◼   ► I think that is a official figure,

00:41:42 ◼   ► or at least a measured figure or whatever.

00:41:43 ◼   ► What I wanted to know is how big is the M3 max?

00:41:47 ◼   ► How close is the M3 max to the reticle limit?

00:41:50 ◼   ► Because if this rumor is they're gonna make a chip

00:41:52 ◼   ► that's not two M3 maxes stuck together,

00:41:55 ◼   ► but is itself a single bigger chip,

00:41:57 ◼   ► how much bigger can it be?

00:41:59 ◼   ► And again, this is just extrapolated from die shots

00:42:03 ◼   ► I found on the internet, as in me measuring pixels

00:42:05 ◼   ► and saying, okay, well, if the M3 is 146 millimeters squared

00:42:08 ◼   ► and this is how big, if this is pictures to scale

00:42:10 ◼   ► and this is a max next to an M3 next to a pro,

00:42:13 ◼   ► how big are they?

00:42:14 ◼   ► Here are my extrapolated values.

00:42:16 ◼   ► I could not find official figures for this.

00:42:17 ◼   ► If anyone knows, please tell me.

00:42:19 ◼   ► M3 pro, 238 millimeters squared,

00:42:22 ◼   ► M3 max, 522 millimeters squared,

00:42:24 ◼   ► and then again, the theoretical reticle limit,

00:42:27 ◼   ► 858 millimeters squared.

00:42:29 ◼   ► So the M3 max is not at the reticle limit,

00:42:33 ◼   ► but it's not too far away, 500 to 800.

00:42:36 ◼   ► Like there's room to be bigger,

00:42:38 ◼   ► but not a huge amount more room.

00:42:39 ◼   ► And I did find an Nvidia GH100 GPU

00:42:42 ◼   ► that TSMC fabs on their 4N process,

00:42:45 ◼   ► which is not the same as three nanometer,

00:42:46 ◼   ► but anyway, their 4N process,

00:42:48 ◼   ► and that is 814 millimeters squared.

00:42:51 ◼   ► So by the way, the transistor sizes here is M3,

00:42:54 ◼   ► 25 billion, M3 pro, 37 billion, M3 max, 92 billion.

00:42:58 ◼   ► And the big Nvidia thing is only 80 billion

00:43:01 ◼   ► because it's on the 4N process, not on the three nanometer.

00:43:03 ◼   ► So can Apple make a bigger single chip

00:43:07 ◼   ► on TSMC's three nanometer process?

00:43:11 ◼   ► I think yes.

00:43:12 ◼   ► How much bigger?

00:43:13 ◼   ► Well, the M3 max is 500-ish,

00:43:15 ◼   ► and they could probably push up into the 800s.

00:43:17 ◼   ► And after that, they can't make any single chip

00:43:21 ◼   ► any bigger than that.

00:43:21 ◼   ► We've talked in the past about chiplets

00:43:22 ◼   ► and combining multiple ones,

00:43:23 ◼   ► and of course there's the ultra fusion stick

00:43:25 ◼   ► and things end to end,

00:43:27 ◼   ► and they could make like a six or seven

00:43:29 ◼   ► or 800 millimeter squared chip called the ultra

00:43:31 ◼   ► and stick two of those together for the extreme,

00:43:34 ◼   ► or it could just be two M3 maxes stuck together

00:43:37 ◼   ► and they call it the ultra

00:43:38 ◼   ► and it's in the pro in the studio.

00:43:39 ◼   ► But that's boring, so I hope it doesn't happen.

00:43:41 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:43:42 ◼   ► And I spent so long looking like,

00:43:43 ◼   ► you know, remember we talked last week,

00:43:44 ◼   ► like oh, did they just crop out the ultra fusion thing?

00:43:47 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:43:49 ◼   ► It's really easy to crop something out of,

00:43:50 ◼   ► Apple itself cropped it out.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Remember when the M1, you know,

00:43:54 ◼   ► the M1, M1 pro, and M1 max came out?

00:43:56 ◼   ► Apple itself cropped out the little interposer part.

00:43:59 ◼   ► So when the ultra came out, they're like,

00:44:00 ◼   ► look, we have the secret thing here, and blah, blah, blah.

00:44:02 ◼   ► I just don't know if it's been cropped out

00:44:04 ◼   ► of every picture I'm finding.

00:44:05 ◼   ► It's really easy to crop things.

00:44:06 ◼   ► So I'm sure this information has to be out there

00:44:10 ◼   ► 'cause people are cutting the tops off these chips

00:44:12 ◼   ► and taking pictures and it's all written in Chinese

00:44:14 ◼   ► and I can't read it.

00:44:15 ◼   ► - All right, there are upcoming Apple layoffs

00:44:18 ◼   ► affecting 700 or more workers,

00:44:20 ◼   ► including Apple Car and MicroLED teams.

00:44:23 ◼   ► From 9to5Mac, Apple's laying off more than 700 employees

00:44:26 ◼   ► as the company has just canceled its Apple Car project

00:44:29 ◼   ► and is also reconsidering the project

00:44:30 ◼   ► to develop in in-house MicroLED displays.

00:44:34 ◼   ► The layoffs became known after the company filed

00:44:36 ◼   ► warn notices in the state of California.

00:44:39 ◼   ► MacRumors adds, "Under California law,

00:44:40 ◼   ► "employers must give employees and state representatives

00:44:42 ◼   ► "a 60-day notice before a mass layoff event."

00:44:45 ◼   ► So here we are.

00:44:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, we didn't talk about the MicroLED thing recently.

00:44:49 ◼   ► I think we talked about it ages ago

00:44:51 ◼   ► with Apple looking into MicroLED displays

00:44:53 ◼   ► for the Apple Watch to begin with.

00:44:55 ◼   ► And to recap, MicroLEDs are very, very, very tiny LEDs,

00:45:00 ◼   ► like the little LED lights that are annoying

00:45:02 ◼   ► in your electronics that you cover up

00:45:04 ◼   ► with little black pieces of tape.

00:45:06 ◼   ► Those like a little colored LED.

00:45:07 ◼   ► Imagine those, but very, very, very tiny.

00:45:10 ◼   ► That's what these are,

00:45:11 ◼   ► and it would be really cool display technology

00:45:13 ◼   ► because unlike organic OLEDs or organic LEDs or OLEDs,

00:45:18 ◼   ► they don't wear out as fast,

00:45:20 ◼   ► so there would be less problems with image retention

00:45:22 ◼   ► and potentially could get brighter, yada, yada, yada.

00:45:25 ◼   ► It's also really hard to make

00:45:26 ◼   ► because everything on it is really tiny.

00:45:27 ◼   ► And Apple was apparently trying

00:45:30 ◼   ► to make these displays itself

00:45:31 ◼   ► rather than like buying them from Samsung or Sony

00:45:33 ◼   ► or whoever else they buy display stuff from.

00:45:36 ◼   ► And rumor was that a little while ago they said,

00:45:39 ◼   ► "Yeah, we're giving up on that for now,"

00:45:40 ◼   ► which is sad.

00:45:41 ◼   ► I really want to see a MicroLED-based Apple Watch,

00:45:44 ◼   ► but maybe Apple just found a supplier that can do it.

00:45:46 ◼   ► But that's a small team.

00:45:48 ◼   ► The car people I would imagine is the majority of this.

00:45:50 ◼   ► You cancel the project.

00:45:51 ◼   ► A lot of those people whose expertise has to do

00:45:54 ◼   ► with car stuff probably don't have anything else

00:45:57 ◼   ► they can do at Apple at this point.

00:45:59 ◼   ► - Except maybe robotics, who knows?

00:46:02 ◼   ► One way or another, Apple has struck a deal

00:46:04 ◼   ► with Shutterstock to license millions of images

00:46:07 ◼   ► for AI training.

00:46:09 ◼   ► From 9to5Mac, Reuters reports that Apple struck a deal

00:46:12 ◼   ► to license millions of images owned by Shutterstock,

00:46:14 ◼   ► a stock image site.

00:46:15 ◼   ► The value of the deal is likely in the $25 to $50 million

00:46:20 ◼   ► range and was said to have been signed

00:46:23 ◼   ► in the months following the release of ChatGPT in late 2022.

00:46:26 ◼   ► Apparently multiple other big tech firms

00:46:28 ◼   ► have made similar deals with Shutterstock,

00:46:29 ◼   ► including Meta, Google, and Amazon.

00:46:32 ◼   ► - We talked about this when the New York Times

00:46:33 ◼   ► did something similar.

00:46:34 ◼   ► This is just a smart thing to do if you are a big company

00:46:37 ◼   ► with a lot to lose and you have a lot of money

00:46:40 ◼   ► and you're not sure about the legal landscape

00:46:42 ◼   ► in terms of training your AI models on YouTube videos

00:46:46 ◼   ► that you scraped from Google or images that you downloaded

00:46:49 ◼   ► from the internet, you can just pay somebody and say,

00:46:52 ◼   ► you have the rights to these images.

00:46:54 ◼   ► Will you sell us the rights to train our AI models on them?

00:46:56 ◼   ► And they apparently gladly will for a handful

00:46:59 ◼   ► of million dollars, which is pocket change to Apple,

00:47:01 ◼   ► but it is priceless when it comes time to justify

00:47:04 ◼   ► the legality of your AI model.

00:47:07 ◼   ► - Indeed, and then finally for follow-up this week,

00:47:10 ◼   ► here's our first look at Apple's in the box

00:47:12 ◼   ► iPhone updating machine.

00:47:13 ◼   ► So for context, it's really crummy when you pick up

00:47:17 ◼   ► an iPhone and you get it home or maybe you're in the store

00:47:22 ◼   ► and you wanna set it up and do a transfer

00:47:24 ◼   ► and so on and so forth and the iPhone comes out of the box

00:47:26 ◼   ► and says, ah, nope, you're gonna have to update me first.

00:47:29 ◼   ► No fun, and so we had heard a while ago

00:47:31 ◼   ► that they were working on a mechanism by which

00:47:35 ◼   ► they could update an iPhone in a sealed box.

00:47:39 ◼   ► Well, apparently this thing is real and so according

00:47:42 ◼   ► to Bloomberg's Mark Gurman, Presto, which is the name of it,

00:47:45 ◼   ► uses MagSafe and other wireless technologies

00:47:48 ◼   ► to turn the phone on, apply the update,

00:47:49 ◼   ► and turn it off again.

00:47:50 ◼   ► An earlier report from iGeneration also mentions

00:47:52 ◼   ► that the machines are connected to specific servers

00:47:54 ◼   ► that can access software updates 24 hours ahead

00:47:56 ◼   ► of their general release.

00:47:58 ◼   ► Gurman says that Presto machines are unlimited testing

00:48:00 ◼   ► in the US with a wide deployment plan for April.

00:48:02 ◼   ► So if you buy a new iPhone from Apple after April

00:48:04 ◼   ► and it comes with the latest OS version installed

00:48:06 ◼   ► in the box, you'll know you have Presto to thank.

00:48:08 ◼   ► Marco, there is a very important image associated with this.

00:48:11 ◼   ► Where will users be able to share,

00:48:13 ◼   ► listeners be able to find this image?

00:48:15 ◼   ► - Directly on your podcast app right now is Chapter Art

00:48:18 ◼   ► and also in the show notes.

00:48:20 ◼   ► - Imagine that.

00:48:21 ◼   ► I'm so proud of us.

00:48:23 ◼   ► You know, you just gotta give a crap.

00:48:24 ◼   ► That's all it takes.

00:48:25 ◼   ► - It's so easy.

00:48:27 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

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00:50:21 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:50:24 ◼   ► - I had a very interesting week over the last week.

00:50:27 ◼   ► Everything's fine.

00:50:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:50:29 ◼   ► - That's a great way to start.

00:50:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, nobody's in trouble, everybody's fine.

00:50:32 ◼   ► Everything's fine.

00:50:33 ◼   ► Last week, all three of us to varying degrees

00:50:35 ◼   ► were very blase at best

00:50:39 ◼   ► and kind of really grumpy at worst

00:50:41 ◼   ► about the state of Vision Pro and VisionOS.

00:50:44 ◼   ► And I stand by everything that,

00:50:47 ◼   ► at least that I said last week,

00:50:49 ◼   ► and yet I kind of want to take it all back

00:50:51 ◼   ► because over the last week,

00:50:53 ◼   ► I have had three different experiences.

00:50:56 ◼   ► One is kind of related,

00:50:58 ◼   ► that I wouldn't say have changed my mind

00:51:00 ◼   ► about the Vision Pro,

00:51:01 ◼   ► but have really shaped or changed,

00:51:04 ◼   ► I guess changed my mind and certainly my opinions

00:51:07 ◼   ► to a degree about what the Vision Pro is

00:51:08 ◼   ► and what it's all about.

00:51:09 ◼   ► So I, shortly after recording,

00:51:12 ◼   ► I spent some time with our friend, Mike Hurley,

00:51:15 ◼   ► of Upgrade and Connected and many other shows,

00:51:18 ◼   ► including Analog for that matter.

00:51:19 ◼   ► I spent some time with Mike

00:51:20 ◼   ► doing a Spatial Persona FaceTime call,

00:51:22 ◼   ► which was a little bit frustrating at first

00:51:24 ◼   ► because I connected via FaceTime

00:51:26 ◼   ► and I hadn't yet updated my persona

00:51:28 ◼   ► for VisionOS 1.1 or whatever it is.

00:51:30 ◼   ► And I couldn't do a FaceTime call with personas

00:51:34 ◼   ► and I don't recall the specifics,

00:51:36 ◼   ► but it was like, it wouldn't,

00:51:38 ◼   ► it really, the VisionOS took away my old persona.

00:51:43 ◼   ► Like it's not that they just let it hang out,

00:51:45 ◼   ► it just erased my original 1.0 persona

00:51:48 ◼   ► and I needed to create a new one.

00:51:49 ◼   ► But as with so many things,

00:51:51 ◼   ► the error messaging about that was very vague

00:51:53 ◼   ► and not very actionable, but eventually I figured it out.

00:51:55 ◼   ► So I did Spatial Personas with Mike.

00:51:58 ◼   ► As it turns out, this past Monday,

00:52:00 ◼   ► I was on Upgrade because Jason

00:52:02 ◼   ► was chasing waterfalls, eclipses.

00:52:05 ◼   ► And so I stood in for Jason

00:52:06 ◼   ► and we talked, Mike and I, about this.

00:52:08 ◼   ► And so I'll refer you to that show

00:52:10 ◼   ► if you wanna hear the long, long version of this story.

00:52:12 ◼   ► But the short, short version is it's unreal.

00:52:15 ◼   ► Leaving aside the fact that Mike's Spatial Persona

00:52:18 ◼   ► or Mike's persona, his mouth doesn't move

00:52:20 ◼   ► when he talks because his mustache apparently is too bushy

00:52:24 ◼   ► for the cameras to see when his mouth is moving.

00:52:26 ◼   ► - Has he ever considered the fact

00:52:27 ◼   ► that maybe people can't see his mouth move

00:52:30 ◼   ► because his mustache is too bushy?

00:52:32 ◼   ► Like it's an accurate representation of reality?

00:52:34 ◼   ► He should look in the mirror and talk

00:52:35 ◼   ► and see if he can see his mouth moving.

00:52:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's something I'm sure he'll try

00:52:38 ◼   ► and take that on as homework.

00:52:39 ◼   ► But one way or another, that is extremely disconcerting

00:52:42 ◼   ► and you never really get used to that.

00:52:44 ◼   ► But, leaving that aside, his persona visually,

00:52:48 ◼   ► when he's not talking, is pretty darn good.

00:52:51 ◼   ► And he said mine was looking pretty good as well.

00:52:53 ◼   ► But the Spatial Persona thing is incredibly cool

00:52:57 ◼   ► and incredibly well done.

00:53:00 ◼   ► When I did FaceTime calls in the past,

00:53:03 ◼   ► just straight up regular FaceTime calls,

00:53:05 ◼   ► it didn't take very long for me to think

00:53:07 ◼   ► that I was talking to Mike or James Thompson or whoever.

00:53:10 ◼   ► But it was still, it was never like really, really right.

00:53:15 ◼   ► I felt like, oh yeah, that's James.

00:53:17 ◼   ► But it was never like, that's frickin' James.

00:53:20 ◼   ► And of course, it's never gonna be like 100%,

00:53:24 ◼   ► but the Spatial Personas got us so much closer

00:53:26 ◼   ► because there's a presence there that just isn't there

00:53:31 ◼   ► when you're looking at a rectangle.

00:53:32 ◼   ► And Mike was facing me and then he decided

00:53:37 ◼   ► to share a freeform board and next thing you know,

00:53:41 ◼   ► we're on either side of the freeform board.

00:53:42 ◼   ► And he can point to things on the freeform board.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Like, oh, look at this red rectangle over here.

00:53:47 ◼   ► And I see his kind of ghostly kind of weird hand,

00:53:50 ◼   ► but nevertheless, it looks like a hand.

00:53:52 ◼   ► I see his hand with his pointer finger extended

00:53:55 ◼   ► pointing at a red rectangle.

00:53:58 ◼   ► And then I could do the same thing

00:53:59 ◼   ► and he sees what I'm doing.

00:54:00 ◼   ► It's like we were standing in front of a whiteboard.

00:54:02 ◼   ► Now, doing anything with freeform was not a lot of fun

00:54:05 ◼   ► because you know, gaze-based manipulation

00:54:09 ◼   ► and pinching and whatnot, maybe it's just user error,

00:54:11 ◼   ► but I did not find it fun to try to manipulate the board.

00:54:13 ◼   ► But in terms of looking at the board

00:54:15 ◼   ► and talking about what was on the board,

00:54:17 ◼   ► it was very, very cool.

00:54:18 ◼   ► And with spatial audio, Mike sounded,

00:54:21 ◼   ► you know, I was on the left side of the board,

00:54:22 ◼   ► he was on the right side of the board

00:54:23 ◼   ► and it sure enough, when I was looking at the board,

00:54:25 ◼   ► it sounds like he's over to my right.

00:54:27 ◼   ► If I turn my head to look at him,

00:54:28 ◼   ► then it sounds like he's right in front of me.

00:54:30 ◼   ► It was very well done.

00:54:32 ◼   ► Then at one point,

00:54:34 ◼   ► I forget exactly what the circumstance was.

00:54:35 ◼   ► I believe we were facing each other.

00:54:37 ◼   ► I don't remember for sure, but one way or another,

00:54:39 ◼   ► there was a situation in which he said, "Watch this."

00:54:42 ◼   ► And I'm just looking at his spatial persona

00:54:46 ◼   ► and all of a sudden, I could tell that he stood up.

00:54:50 ◼   ► Not only because his persona got higher and above my head,

00:54:55 ◼   ► but just the way in which it moved, you could tell.

00:54:58 ◼   ► Holy (beep) Mike just stood up.

00:54:59 ◼   ► That's what just happened.

00:55:01 ◼   ► That's incredible.

00:55:02 ◼   ► Like, it's so silly.

00:55:04 ◼   ► And as with so many things in the Vision Pro,

00:55:06 ◼   ► you kind of have to experience it

00:55:08 ◼   ► to truly and properly understand it.

00:55:10 ◼   ► But it was so cool.

00:55:12 ◼   ► And I had a presence there

00:55:17 ◼   ► that I had not experienced with a regular FaceTime call

00:55:20 ◼   ► that I really hadn't experienced in a lot of other ways.

00:55:22 ◼   ► So if you are one of the people who has a Vision Pro,

00:55:26 ◼   ► you need to find somebody else with a Vision Pro

00:55:28 ◼   ► that you can FaceTime.

00:55:29 ◼   ► Maybe I should offer this as like a cameo or something,

00:55:31 ◼   ► but find somebody else that you can do a FaceTime call with

00:55:34 ◼   ► and do the spatial persona thing.

00:55:35 ◼   ► It's extremely cool.

00:55:37 ◼   ► But then it got better.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Mike says to me, "Go to the App Store.

00:55:41 ◼   ► "Go to Apple Arcade and download the Game Room app."

00:55:45 ◼   ► And I will put a link in the show notes.

00:55:46 ◼   ► I believe it is only available in the Vision Pro.

00:55:48 ◼   ► - But actually, I believe it's actually available

00:55:50 ◼   ► on other VR platforms as well.

00:55:51 ◼   ► - Oh, sorry, yes.

00:55:52 ◼   ► I was just thinking Apple platforms.

00:55:53 ◼   ► That very well could be true.

00:55:55 ◼   ► So it's only available on Apple platforms in Vision Pro.

00:55:57 ◼   ► And it's genericized versions of, I think,

00:56:00 ◼   ► Yahtzee, Solitaire, one or two other things, and Battleship.

00:56:05 ◼   ► And so Mike said, "We're gonna play around a Battleship."

00:56:07 ◼   ► And I'm like, "Okay, Mike, I'm really hungry.

00:56:09 ◼   ► "It's right before lunchtime.

00:56:10 ◼   ► "I wanna go make my lunch.

00:56:11 ◼   ► "I'll play a couple of shots or what have you.

00:56:13 ◼   ► "And then I'm gonna go and I'm gonna eat my lunch."

00:56:16 ◼   ► Fast forward 15 minutes later,

00:56:17 ◼   ► and I couldn't resist playing the whole damn game

00:56:19 ◼   ► because it was so freaking cool.

00:56:22 ◼   ► So not only is the game board 3D rendered

00:56:25 ◼   ► and the art looks really, really good,

00:56:29 ◼   ► but beyond all that, it was incredibly cool.

00:56:34 ◼   ► The idea of Battleship is you have a board

00:56:38 ◼   ► in between you and your opponents,

00:56:40 ◼   ► and you place pretend ships in a square grid,

00:56:43 ◼   ► and you call out, "Oh, C5."

00:56:46 ◼   ► And the person on the other side of the board

00:56:48 ◼   ► either says, "Hit or miss."

00:56:49 ◼   ► And you have to deduce where their ships are

00:56:51 ◼   ► based on this experience,

00:56:53 ◼   ► and based on hits or misses or whatnot,

00:56:55 ◼   ► and you try to sink all of their ships.

00:56:57 ◼   ► And so we're doing this.

00:57:00 ◼   ► And the way this particular app works

00:57:05 ◼   ► is that it's all 3D rendered.

00:57:09 ◼   ► And so when I fire, a missile launches

00:57:12 ◼   ► from a little missile launcher adjacent to my game board

00:57:15 ◼   ► over the game board between us and flies into Mike's view

00:57:20 ◼   ► and either hits or misses his thing.

00:57:21 ◼   ► And if it lands in the water,

00:57:23 ◼   ► the dead missile just kind of bobs around in the water

00:57:25 ◼   ► where I had launched it to.

00:57:27 ◼   ► And then he launches a missile

00:57:28 ◼   ► and flies over the game board toward me

00:57:30 ◼   ► and hits one of my ships.

00:57:32 ◼   ► And you can see the damage in the ship.

00:57:34 ◼   ► You can see the 3D water flow into the damage

00:57:36 ◼   ► within the ship.

00:57:37 ◼   ► And then when he finally sank one of my ships,

00:57:39 ◼   ► the ship sank into the 3D water.

00:57:42 ◼   ► This sounds so bananas, the way I'm describing it.

00:57:44 ◼   ► I am quite confident.

00:57:45 ◼   ► I probably sound like I am Looney Tunes.

00:57:48 ◼   ► I cannot begin to tell you

00:57:49 ◼   ► how freaking cool this experience was.

00:57:52 ◼   ► And the other thing is,

00:57:54 ◼   ► if he could lean over to the side,

00:57:57 ◼   ► like away from the game board,

00:57:58 ◼   ► and then I could see his face again.

00:58:00 ◼   ► And if I held up my hand above the game board,

00:58:02 ◼   ► he could see my hand above the game board.

00:58:04 ◼   ► The presence here was so unbelievably cool.

00:58:09 ◼   ► Again, it's one of those things that for better and for worse

00:58:11 ◼   ► you really just kind of have to experience.

00:58:13 ◼   ► And if you don't own a Vision Pro

00:58:15 ◼   ► and you can't do the Spatial Persona thing

00:58:17 ◼   ► or FaceTime thing, I don't know what to tell you.

00:58:19 ◼   ► And I don't mean that to be flippant.

00:58:21 ◼   ► I don't know what to tell you.

00:58:22 ◼   ► You can't just go to an Apple store and try this.

00:58:25 ◼   ► There's nothing you can do.

00:58:27 ◼   ► And it is incredibly cool.

00:58:29 ◼   ► It was a transformative moment

00:58:32 ◼   ► for me to play freaking Battleship on the Vision Pro.

00:58:35 ◼   ► I know that sounds nuts, but it really was incredible.

00:58:38 ◼   ► - I think one of the things you left out

00:58:40 ◼   ► for people who don't play Battleship

00:58:41 ◼   ► is the reason it's such a good example of this,

00:58:44 ◼   ► a good game example of this,

00:58:45 ◼   ► is that the Battleship board is a vertical,

00:58:48 ◼   ► there's a horizontal portion,

00:58:49 ◼   ► but there's also a vertical portion.

00:58:51 ◼   ► And the vertical portion has two sides to it.

00:58:54 ◼   ► And the whole point of the game,

00:58:55 ◼   ► when you play in person in real life,

00:58:57 ◼   ► is that you can't see what's on the other side

00:58:59 ◼   ► of that board.

00:59:00 ◼   ► So the side that's facing you, you can see,

00:59:02 ◼   ► and the side that's facing them, they can see, right?

00:59:05 ◼   ► And so they render this in 3D space.

00:59:06 ◼   ► So I would imagine, I don't know if you've tried this, Casey,

00:59:08 ◼   ► but I imagine what the game would let you do

00:59:10 ◼   ► is could you peek around and cheat, just like real life,

00:59:13 ◼   ► by looking at his board on his side?

00:59:15 ◼   ► - I could try, but it wouldn't let me

00:59:16 ◼   ► because it clears his game board from my perspective.

00:59:18 ◼   ► - Oh, that's stinky.

00:59:19 ◼   ► Well, anyway, so the whole point is

00:59:21 ◼   ► they're modeling a game that,

00:59:24 ◼   ► when you play it in real life,

00:59:25 ◼   ► your physical presence is part of the game.

00:59:27 ◼   ► Like it forms a blind between you, it blocks,

00:59:30 ◼   ► yeah, your view is private to you and their view.

00:59:32 ◼   ► And that's trivially easy to do in computer games.

00:59:34 ◼   ► Oh, I'm seeing my screen here,

00:59:36 ◼   ► you're seeing your screen over in the UK, right?

00:59:39 ◼   ► But of course we're not looking at each other's screens.

00:59:41 ◼   ► But when you're in the same virtual place

00:59:43 ◼   ► with the whole presence thing is now we're back to like,

00:59:46 ◼   ► just like the real life thing where,

00:59:48 ◼   ► well, there are two sides of this board.

00:59:49 ◼   ► And the reason I could see my side

00:59:50 ◼   ► is because I'm sitting on this side of it.

00:59:52 ◼   ► And the reason you can see your side

00:59:53 ◼   ► is 'cause you're sitting on that side,

00:59:54 ◼   ► but we're all in the same shared space.

00:59:56 ◼   ► That's kind of annoying that doesn't let you cheat,

00:59:57 ◼   ► but at least it knows that you're trying to cheat

00:59:58 ◼   ► and blanks it out.

00:59:59 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

01:00:00 ◼   ► It is so cool.

01:00:01 ◼   ► I am making no promises,

01:00:03 ◼   ► but I did record a little bit of this from my perspective.

01:00:06 ◼   ► And I recorded a video of it.

01:00:08 ◼   ► Gentlemen, for you, it's in Slack right now.

01:00:10 ◼   ► I'll see if I can like cut it down

01:00:11 ◼   ► and I'll have to ask Mike if he's okay with this

01:00:13 ◼   ► 'cause I didn't ask permission for me to like,

01:00:15 ◼   ► you know, make this public.

01:00:16 ◼   ► If it's cool with Mike

01:00:18 ◼   ► and if I can figure out a way to cut it down

01:00:20 ◼   ► so it's a little bit slimmer and post it somewhere,

01:00:22 ◼   ► then I'll put a link in the show notes.

01:00:23 ◼   ► No promises.

01:00:24 ◼   ► You don't have to tell me if it's not there.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Again, I don't know if I'll be able to work it out or not,

01:00:28 ◼   ► but I'll see what I can do.

01:00:29 ◼   ► But it is incredibly cool.

01:00:31 ◼   ► It's such a silly thing to play Battleship with somebody,

01:00:35 ◼   ► but he is across a freaking ocean

01:00:38 ◼   ► and it feels like we're there together playing Battleship.

01:00:41 ◼   ► It was unreal.

01:00:42 ◼   ► I cannot begin to tell you how cool it was.

01:00:45 ◼   ► Then the final thing in Vision Pro Corner,

01:00:48 ◼   ► I hope you two are sitting down

01:00:49 ◼   ► because I gotta tell you,

01:00:52 ◼   ► Marco, whenever you get your Vision Pro back,

01:00:54 ◼   ► if you ever take it back,

01:00:56 ◼   ► you have to download the Gucci app.

01:00:59 ◼   ► I'm sorry, what did I just say?

01:01:00 ◼   ► - Is it like the fashion brand?

01:01:02 ◼   ► - You need to download the Gucci app, the fashion brand.

01:01:06 ◼   ► I am not kidding.

01:01:07 ◼   ► Somebody wrote to me and said,

01:01:09 ◼   ► "Hey, why is nobody talking about this?"

01:01:12 ◼   ► Gentlemen, why is nobody talking about the Gucci app?

01:01:15 ◼   ► I am not kidding.

01:01:16 ◼   ► So what this is, and I know nothing.

01:01:20 ◼   ► - Can I guess that maybe a lot of tech podcasters

01:01:23 ◼   ► in the Apple space aren't necessarily Gucci shoppers?

01:01:26 ◼   ► - It turns out that that seems to be accurate.

01:01:28 ◼   ► And so what this is is apparently,

01:01:32 ◼   ► and I'm sure I'm gonna get the details wrong,

01:01:34 ◼   ► but the broad strokes are all that really matter.

01:01:36 ◼   ► Apparently what this is is that

01:01:38 ◼   ► they have a new creative director.

01:01:40 ◼   ► The Gucci company has a new creative director,

01:01:41 ◼   ► Sabato Desarno, and they do this 20-minute video

01:01:46 ◼   ► of who is, I think the title is literally,

01:01:48 ◼   ► Who is Sabato Desarno?

01:01:50 ◼   ► And it starts as just a regular old video.

01:01:54 ◼   ► I'm not talking 3D video, just a regular old video.

01:01:57 ◼   ► But then during the course of this 20-minute video,

01:02:00 ◼   ► the app is free, the video is 20-ish minutes long, try it.

01:02:05 ◼   ► During the 20-minute video,

01:02:06 ◼   ► and I'm gonna spoil a little bit here,

01:02:07 ◼   ► there are different things that happen

01:02:09 ◼   ► and it suddenly becomes immersive

01:02:11 ◼   ► in a way that is so well done and so freaking cool

01:02:16 ◼   ► and such a great example of,

01:02:18 ◼   ► look at what is possible with this device.

01:02:21 ◼   ► So silly example.

01:02:22 ◼   ► At one point, I forget the exact context,

01:02:24 ◼   ► but at some point they talk about being on a tram

01:02:26 ◼   ► or something like that.

01:02:27 ◼   ► And so they're talking about this in the video.

01:02:29 ◼   ► And again, this is a rectangle

01:02:30 ◼   ► that you're seeing in your space.

01:02:32 ◼   ► It is not 3D.

01:02:33 ◼   ► I know John and I were going back and forth

01:02:34 ◼   ► about this last week.

01:02:35 ◼   ► It's just a regular 2D rectangle in your space.

01:02:37 ◼   ► But then outside of this rectangle,

01:02:40 ◼   ► suddenly you see the tram tracks,

01:02:44 ◼   ► like just silvery gray tracks,

01:02:46 ◼   ► extend out from this rectangle.

01:02:49 ◼   ► And then a tram, a 3D tram rendered,

01:02:51 ◼   ► but a 3D tram comes in along the tracks.

01:02:54 ◼   ► And I think you can interact with it.

01:02:56 ◼   ► I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you can.

01:02:58 ◼   ► And it's just so cool and so different.

01:03:01 ◼   ► Later on, they show that there was,

01:03:05 ◼   ► Sabato walks into a room that there's a bunch

01:03:07 ◼   ► of Gucci red balloons inflated in it.

01:03:09 ◼   ► And what they did during that moment

01:03:12 ◼   ► is they have a gazillion rendered balloons.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Again, it's not real, it's just renders.

01:03:17 ◼   ► But there's a zillion rendered balloons

01:03:19 ◼   ► between you and the video.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Not in a way that's like,

01:03:22 ◼   ► yeah, I guess you're obscuring the video a little bit,

01:03:24 ◼   ► which is weird.

01:03:25 ◼   ► In a complimentary way, not in a way

01:03:27 ◼   ► that takes away from your viewing experience.

01:03:29 ◼   ► And there's a lot of this.

01:03:31 ◼   ► It is so cool.

01:03:33 ◼   ► It's 20 minutes.

01:03:34 ◼   ► It is so freaking cool.

01:03:36 ◼   ► And if you have a Vision Pro,

01:03:38 ◼   ► there is a link in the show notes to this app.

01:03:40 ◼   ► I cannot tell you how cool this is.

01:03:42 ◼   ► I love that this is what we're starting to get now.

01:03:46 ◼   ► Again, I stand by just a week ago,

01:03:48 ◼   ► I hadn't seen anything like this.

01:03:50 ◼   ► Doesn't mean it didn't exist,

01:03:51 ◼   ► because I'm pretty sure it did.

01:03:52 ◼   ► But I hadn't seen any anyway.

01:03:54 ◼   ► But now, at least, people are starting to let me know

01:03:57 ◼   ► of cool and interesting takes and different things

01:04:00 ◼   ► that people are doing now with the Vision Pro.

01:04:02 ◼   ► Does the Gucci app justify a $3,500 Vision Pro?

01:04:06 ◼   ► Hell no, it doesn't.

01:04:07 ◼   ► - Do Gucci shoppers care?

01:04:09 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, Gucci shoppers probably don't care.

01:04:11 ◼   ► But we're getting a glimpse now

01:04:13 ◼   ► with Game Room, with the Gucci app.

01:04:16 ◼   ► And I'm sure some of you who have used the Oculus

01:04:18 ◼   ► in the past are telling me,

01:04:20 ◼   ► or thinking to yourselves, of course, you moron.

01:04:22 ◼   ► This is where we've been for years.

01:04:23 ◼   ► And that very well may be true,

01:04:24 ◼   ► but this is not where I've been for years.

01:04:26 ◼   ► And some of this stuff, the special personas,

01:04:29 ◼   ► the presents there, the Game Room app,

01:04:31 ◼   ► the freeform thing, this Gucci app,

01:04:35 ◼   ► they are so incredibly cool,

01:04:38 ◼   ► and has made me so much more, what's the good one, bullish?

01:04:42 ◼   ► Bearish is bad, bullish is good, I always get it wrong.

01:04:44 ◼   ► So much more bullish about the Vision Pro,

01:04:46 ◼   ► because I'm starting to see an inkling

01:04:49 ◼   ► that people are starting to experiment.

01:04:52 ◼   ► Now, it bums me out that Apple doesn't seem to be doing much

01:04:55 ◼   ► as we talked ad nauseum last week,

01:04:57 ◼   ► but at least people are starting to do it.

01:04:58 ◼   ► And this stuff is so cool.

01:05:00 ◼   ► And Marco, whenever you get this thing back,

01:05:03 ◼   ► we've got to do a spatial persona call.

01:05:05 ◼   ► And maybe you'll say to me, I hate this and it's awful,

01:05:07 ◼   ► but you know what, it's worth trying.

01:05:09 ◼   ► So whenever you get that thing back, let me know.

01:05:11 ◼   ► We'll get on FaceTime together.

01:05:12 ◼   ► - Something I had to mention last week

01:05:14 ◼   ► about the spatial personas,

01:05:15 ◼   ► comparing them to other virtual representations of people,

01:05:19 ◼   ► both VR and non-VR.

01:05:20 ◼   ► So for example, the Miis and Nintendo's Wii,

01:05:23 ◼   ► where you make a little avatar, 3D avatar of yourself,

01:05:27 ◼   ► and the meta ones, where you're in a meeting with people

01:05:31 ◼   ► and you got these little rendered versions of yourselves.

01:05:33 ◼   ► All those have made a different choice than Apple has

01:05:38 ◼   ► with the spatial personas, both the current ones

01:05:41 ◼   ► and the previous one that were inside the little rectangle,

01:05:44 ◼   ► in that the Miis and the meta ones modeled you in 3D,

01:05:48 ◼   ► and yeah, they mapped your face on there

01:05:49 ◼   ► and you had your little cartoon hands

01:05:51 ◼   ► and sometimes you didn't have legs or whatever,

01:05:53 ◼   ► but they model you entirely from all directions.

01:05:57 ◼   ► And the Apple ones, the original ones

01:05:58 ◼   ► and the current quote unquote spatial ones,

01:06:02 ◼   ► basically just do your front and some of your sides.

01:06:06 ◼   ► And as you go towards the back, they kind of go,

01:06:09 ◼   ► it's blurry, like just blur that out.

01:06:12 ◼   ► And you can see a lot in a lot of the spatial persona videos

01:06:15 ◼   ► like the Verge article that we linked last week's episode,

01:06:18 ◼   ► where when somebody turns in profile,

01:06:20 ◼   ► you can see their profile and it looks like them,

01:06:22 ◼   ► like it's clear that their persona has mapped that,

01:06:24 ◼   ► so it's not just like, you know, generic.

01:06:26 ◼   ► But as you get back past like the ear,

01:06:29 ◼   ► the back half of the head doesn't exist, right?

01:06:33 ◼   ► And they blur it artistically,

01:06:35 ◼   ► like before when you were in the little rectangle,

01:06:36 ◼   ► they had all sorts of artsy blurring around the edges there

01:06:39 ◼   ► and now that you're out of the rectangle,

01:06:40 ◼   ► still the back half of you doesn't exist,

01:06:44 ◼   ► which makes sense because you didn't scan

01:06:46 ◼   ► the back half of you, you just scanned the front half of you

01:06:48 ◼   ► when you did the persona setup.

01:06:50 ◼   ► And it could, like the Miis or the meta things

01:06:52 ◼   ► extrapolate and sort of close off your head shape there

01:06:57 ◼   ► and try to make it whatever.

01:06:58 ◼   ► But so far Apple is doing the sort of,

01:07:00 ◼   ► I guess the Nintendo 64 school of like,

01:07:02 ◼   ► can't render it, fog it, right?

01:07:04 ◼   ► Just the wall of fog that's like,

01:07:07 ◼   ► we can't render past this distance,

01:07:08 ◼   ► but we need something that looks, you know,

01:07:10 ◼   ► realistic in context.

01:07:11 ◼   ► So like everything is always foggy

01:07:12 ◼   ► in the land of Turok for some reason.

01:07:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:07:16 ◼   ► And the personas are doing that with you.

01:07:18 ◼   ► They're like, oh, your head kind of fades into a mist.

01:07:22 ◼   ► You go back on your way.

01:07:23 ◼   ► And it's fine, 'cause mostly you're looking at people

01:07:25 ◼   ► from the front, but like what Casey was saying

01:07:27 ◼   ► when if two people are collaborating on like a free forum

01:07:30 ◼   ► board or whatever, like you do have an occasion,

01:07:33 ◼   ► especially if it's like three people,

01:07:34 ◼   ► you might have an occasion to see them from the side.

01:07:36 ◼   ► And it is a little bit weird.

01:07:38 ◼   ► So I am wondering if eventually that the next step

01:07:40 ◼   ► and this is that Apple will be brave enough

01:07:41 ◼   ► to try to do the back of your head.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Of course, the other thing that's the problem

01:07:45 ◼   ► with the back of your head is there's even more hair

01:07:47 ◼   ► back there for most people.

01:07:48 ◼   ► - Not me these days.

01:07:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, rendering hair is tricky.

01:07:53 ◼   ► Like they kind of get like your hairline is kind of fuzzed

01:07:56 ◼   ► out anyway with the current personas.

01:07:57 ◼   ► Like, oh, you have hair and whatever we scanned,

01:08:00 ◼   ► but then it just fades into blurriness, right?

01:08:02 ◼   ► But like, I don't know, ponytails would have to be rendered

01:08:05 ◼   ► with physics or whatever.

01:08:06 ◼   ► And the reason I'm drawing a distinction

01:08:08 ◼   ► with between the Miis and the Meta ones

01:08:09 ◼   ► is those are all cartoonish, like to varying degrees.

01:08:12 ◼   ► I know Meta has ones that are not cartoonish

01:08:14 ◼   ► and we've talked about those in past episodes as well,

01:08:15 ◼   ► but the cartoonish ones, it's like,

01:08:17 ◼   ► like kind of like my emoji.

01:08:18 ◼   ► It's like, well, we can just render that

01:08:20 ◼   ► because the back of your head is just like the front of you.

01:08:21 ◼   ► You're all made of plastic, right?

01:08:23 ◼   ► But they're trying to make them realistic.

01:08:24 ◼   ► And I think they're like, we're not ready to do hair yet.

01:08:27 ◼   ► So hair equals blur and back of your head does not exist.

01:08:30 ◼   ► And I'll definitely be watching for that to see how far back

01:08:34 ◼   ► they can push the fog.

01:08:35 ◼   ► Already I think it feel like it's farther.

01:08:37 ◼   ► Obviously there's not the rectangle anymore

01:08:39 ◼   ► that had all that weird fog in it,

01:08:40 ◼   ► but now the personas themselves have fog on the back of them

01:08:43 ◼   ► and we'll see how far back that goes.

01:08:45 ◼   ► But that's gonna be quite a challenge.

01:08:46 ◼   ► But as Casey said, most of the time you're facing the people

01:08:49 ◼   ► and like it goes a long way.

01:08:51 ◼   ► Having you feel like you're there in a physical space

01:08:54 ◼   ► with a physical thing like the battleship board between you

01:08:57 ◼   ► that you can interact with or whatever

01:08:59 ◼   ► goes a long way towards making you feel like

01:09:00 ◼   ► you're in a place even if the back half of your body

01:09:02 ◼   ► doesn't exist.

01:09:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just, it's so funny because again,

01:09:07 ◼   ► I stand by last week's episode

01:09:09 ◼   ► and that was my perspective at the time and I stand by it,

01:09:12 ◼   ► but I feel so differently now after this one,

01:09:14 ◼   ► well two experiences if you include the Gucci thing.

01:09:17 ◼   ► It's just, it's so cool.

01:09:18 ◼   ► - Could you play patty cake with Mike?

01:09:20 ◼   ► - Kind of, we did high five once and obviously

01:09:23 ◼   ► you kind of float through each other,

01:09:24 ◼   ► your hands float through each other

01:09:26 ◼   ► because what's gonna stop you?

01:09:28 ◼   ► You know, it's not like you're--

01:09:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, I just meant like the alignment.

01:09:30 ◼   ► Like could you, were you--

01:09:31 ◼   ► - I think we could.

01:09:32 ◼   ► - Was the spatialness good enough

01:09:33 ◼   ► where you felt like it was pretty easy to high five, right?

01:09:36 ◼   ► Although what's gonna stop you reminds me

01:09:38 ◼   ► of my window management thing where I was talking about

01:09:40 ◼   ► how in Fitz Law, like the top of the screen

01:09:43 ◼   ► stops your cursor, but nothing stops it in the 3D world.

01:09:45 ◼   ► But a choice that Apple could have made

01:09:47 ◼   ► and I think some other VR people have made

01:09:49 ◼   ► is that virtual hand that you're waving around,

01:09:52 ◼   ► there's no reason that the Vision Pro OS

01:09:56 ◼   ► can't choose to stop your virtual hand

01:09:59 ◼   ► when it encounters another virtual hand

01:10:01 ◼   ► or a piece of scenery.

01:10:02 ◼   ► Your actual hand will keep going.

01:10:04 ◼   ► Just like when you jam the mouse cursor

01:10:05 ◼   ► against the top of the screen,

01:10:07 ◼   ► your mouse hand keeps going, but the cursor stops, right?

01:10:11 ◼   ► And that disconnect, like wait a second,

01:10:13 ◼   ► my hand is still moving, but the cursor is not.

01:10:15 ◼   ► We are familiar with that as like,

01:10:17 ◼   ► oh, my cursor has hit the edge of a thing.

01:10:19 ◼   ► So Apple could in the future choose to have you interact,

01:10:23 ◼   ► for example, for window management,

01:10:24 ◼   ► interacting with window management with a virtual hand

01:10:26 ◼   ► where you jam your hands, turn the window,

01:10:28 ◼   ► and you don't have to get the depth exactly right.

01:10:30 ◼   ► Because when your virtual hand hits the virtual window,

01:10:33 ◼   ► it will stop just like your cursor stops

01:10:34 ◼   ► when it hits the top edge of the screen,

01:10:35 ◼   ► and then you'll grip and grab and move.

01:10:37 ◼   ► And I think that type of interface could be good,

01:10:39 ◼   ► because it would essentially be

01:10:40 ◼   ► the equivalent of Fitts' Law in 3D space.

01:10:42 ◼   ► I will jam my hand cursor towards this window,

01:10:45 ◼   ► because I know, just like you would in real life,

01:10:46 ◼   ► I know it eventually will hit it,

01:10:48 ◼   ► so I don't have to be exactly precise,

01:10:49 ◼   ► and when it does hit it, the cursor will stop,

01:10:51 ◼   ► and then I'll grip.

01:10:52 ◼   ► That would be cool.

01:10:53 ◼   ► So you could actually high-five with mic,

01:10:55 ◼   ► and your hand would actually stop,

01:10:57 ◼   ► and they'd have a little high-five sound,

01:10:58 ◼   ► and it would sound spatially correct, maybe in version two.

01:11:01 ◼   ► - Oh, that was the other thing.

01:11:02 ◼   ► That reminds me, the other thing that we did

01:11:04 ◼   ► during this time is, I actually don't recall

01:11:07 ◼   ► how you enable it, but one way or another,

01:11:09 ◼   ► you can share play your perspective

01:11:13 ◼   ► in your actual physical space.

01:11:15 ◼   ► And so he took me on a tour of his studio office,

01:11:18 ◼   ► whatever he calls it, I think studio.

01:11:20 ◼   ► He took me on a tour of Mega Studio,

01:11:22 ◼   ► and I could see this studio.

01:11:25 ◼   ► I'd have seen photos of it,

01:11:26 ◼   ► but it's different when you can see.

01:11:28 ◼   ► And if memory serves, it wasn't 3D.

01:11:30 ◼   ► It was like, I don't think it was rendered in 3D.

01:11:33 ◼   ► I'd have to try it again at some point.

01:11:35 ◼   ► But it was very, you have this presence

01:11:39 ◼   ► when you're getting whipped around a space

01:11:42 ◼   ► from somebody's perspective.

01:11:44 ◼   ► It was very, very, very cool.

01:11:46 ◼   ► And I really enjoyed that as well.

01:11:48 ◼   ► So again, if you have two people,

01:11:50 ◼   ► if you know another person with a Vision Pro,

01:11:52 ◼   ► you gotta try this.

01:11:53 ◼   ► It's all so very impressive.

01:11:55 ◼   ► And it really gives me hope that even if Apple's

01:11:57 ◼   ► dropping the ball on immersive stuff,

01:11:59 ◼   ► people are trying, and people are trying,

01:12:01 ◼   ► and people are doing cool stuff.

01:12:02 ◼   ► And we just gotta give it time.

01:12:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I wanted to clarify what I actually said

01:12:08 ◼   ► last episode about the Vision Pro.

01:12:10 ◼   ► I feel like I need to defend myself a little bit

01:12:12 ◼   ► against what sounded like Mike sub-tweeting me

01:12:15 ◼   ► in the beginning of the podcast, sub-potting me.

01:12:18 ◼   ► I didn't say the Vision Pro has already failed,

01:12:20 ◼   ► or is a failure.

01:12:21 ◼   ► My concern is that the Vision Pro will fail

01:12:25 ◼   ► if it continues on the path it appears to be on so far

01:12:29 ◼   ► in terms of support from developers and Apple.

01:12:33 ◼   ► What I stand by is that they have a pretty significant

01:12:37 ◼   ► challenge on their hands of there being a massive

01:12:39 ◼   ► chicken and egg problem here.

01:12:40 ◼   ► That there are not many users, there are not many apps,

01:12:45 ◼   ► there is not almost any content.

01:12:48 ◼   ► That's a big problem.

01:12:50 ◼   ► In order to get more users, somebody has to be making

01:12:54 ◼   ► the content or the apps or both to get them there.

01:12:57 ◼   ► And right now it seems like the biggest chance

01:12:59 ◼   ► of that support coming from somewhere is from Apple.

01:13:03 ◼   ► Because the other content makers and publishers out there