The Accidental Tech Podcast

151: The Opposite of Final


  hello everybody we are live from las [TS]

  vegas with our CES extravaganza [TS]

  extravaganza is it extravaganza [TS]

  not really no I'm just kidding and say [TS]

  we're going to talk about stars for [TS]

  three hours as a little exchange between [TS]

  one of our listeners and the ever [TS]

  watching ever listening up there folks [TS]

  there in the cloud that's why I see [TS]

  everything [TS]

  peter brock power was tweeting at us [TS]

  about this and he said an FYI up there [TS]

  is hosted on AWS Little Snitch told me [TS]

  so AWS Amazon Web Services and little [TS]

  stitches a firewall program to tell you [TS]

  where computers connected to ya and up [TS]

  there on Twitter responded not true we [TS]

  built our own stack from the ground up [TS]

  and host our service on this stack so [TS]

  I'm not quite sure what little snitch [TS]

  was on about maybe it's connected AWS [TS]

  for some ancillary things but straight [TS]

  from the up their horses mouse mouth [TS]

  they are not using AWS they have built [TS]

  their own stack which is what I was [TS]

  talking about the last show whatever [TS]

  mysterious technology they're using [TS]

  presumably the whole point the company [TS]

  is not to write in iOS and mac app that [TS]

  connects to s3 like that's not you don't [TS]

  I don't think for transfer layer would [TS]

  do a start-up and focus on that because [TS]

  there's a million of those things [TS]

  already [TS]

  well I mean they could have also been [TS]

  working a layer above that like they [TS]

  could have been using easy to servers [TS]

  like some other part of AWS as part of [TS]

  their overly know just like how I cloud [TS]

  uses some AWS stuff and some as your [TS]

  stuff as far as we knew forever ago [TS]

  yeah but that like what would the user [TS]

  may even even a c2 like I don't know it [TS]

  just seems it seems counter but that's [TS]

  all there is that's all the rest up [TS]

  there there's no it's a icon is built on [TS]

  top of this whole bunch of other stuff [TS]

  like that's just this you can use the [TS]

  street the storage back end or view [TS]

  movie if you don't have your own data [TS]

  centers or whatever you may be good bc [TS]

  24 compute stuff but i don't know i just [TS]

  always imagine whatever they're doing [TS]

  being more interesting than that [TS]

  fair enough any other follow-up through [TS]

  this and follow up just because it's I [TS]

  don't know if there's any information [TS]

  here but if you throw in some follow [TS]

  just because you couldn't stand not [TS]

  having me [TS]

  no i mean like i was i had this is a [TS]

  topic section before when I said you [TS]

  know we talked about this on a pet show [TS]

  so it's kind of follow-up but i'm not [TS]

  sure how filled information it is a [TS]

  friend of mine was messaging me today [TS]

  he's like so how do you feel about the [TS]

  headphone port going away from the [TS]

  iphone 7 and I said a you obviously [TS]

  don't know Claud cast and be at what do [TS]

  you know what are you talking about that [TS]

  i missed some news or something is like [TS]

  oh yeah they were talking about it [TS]

  before but it wasn't confirmed until [TS]

  today I like woody what are you talking [TS]

  about like I really thought like that [TS]

  Apple had announced that there was gonna [TS]

  be no headphone cord on the iphone 7 but [TS]

  I forget the regular people don't know [TS]

  what confirmed means so this is a former [TS]

  is a Forbes article it says the [TS]

  headlines iphone 7 leaks confirm in [TS]

  single quotes Apple abandoning headphone [TS]

  jack so they put they did the work for [TS]

  you they put in scare quotes in the [TS]

  headline at least have the decency to [TS]

  say confirm doing air quotes now confirm [TS]

  any way more so we talked about this on [TS]

  a path show more rumors more supposed [TS]

  park leaks this one has a neat little [TS]

  concept image because you can never [TS]

  remember story you gotta have someone do [TS]

  a mock-up image of the iphone 7 and i'm [TS]

  looking at this mock-up image and what [TS]

  do you guys think it looks a little thin [TS]

  to me but anyway this is more smoke for [TS]

  this potential fire of the headphone [TS]

  port going why i don't know i think it's [TS]

  too early to make any kind of call but [TS]

  if I keep it is not that forms a great [TS]

  track record but it's making me think [TS]

  about it against making you think how [TS]

  Apple could explain this inevitability [TS]

  if not this year then next to the year [TS]

  after the year after and I think a lot [TS]

  of the stuff in this article is a good [TS]

  way that they might explain it the idea [TS]

  being that the phone would be smart [TS]

  about where it sends audio output [TS]

  depending on context i wish all of apple [TS]

  slices were smarter this way all the [TS]

  Apple services and devices so if I'm [TS]

  listening on my wireless headphones you [TS]

  know my car explain to bluetooth I get [TS]

  out of the car [TS]

  it's just my wireless earbuds or [TS]

  whatever I sit down at my desk and it [TS]

  switches to outputting through the [TS]

  headphone jack of my computer or [TS]

  something I mean like situational [TS]

  awareness where you don't have to be [TS]

  plugging and unplugging things will just [TS]

  know based on your location of the [TS]

  devices there or your preferred sound [TS]

  output devices that and then you say see [TS]

  isn't that better than headphone jack [TS]

  and say yeah that actually worked that [TS]

  would kind of be better than headphone [TS]

  jack and lets you could make your phone [TS]

  thinner so everybody's happy [TS]

  I don't know if that world is in arrive [TS]

  in time for the iphone 7 but one way to [TS]

  sell the future I guess [TS]

  yeah I mean we we talked this to death a [TS]

  few episodes back so it is i don't think [TS]

  we spend too much time on it but I i do [TS]

  think the world of not having the [TS]

  headphone jack is probably on its way I [TS]

  think as we discussed last time it's [TS]

  probably still a few years off mean it i [TS]

  think the one of the biggest supports [TS]

  for this is to look at the macbook one [TS]

  and the macbook one has two ports the [TS]

  multi-purpose USB / charging port and a [TS]

  headphone jack and they couldn't justify [TS]

  any other ports on that but they can [TS]

  justify a headphone jack and i think [TS]

  that goes to show just how often they're [TS]

  used and bluetooth headphones do exist [TS]

  because it for quite some time [TS]

  there are some decent ones there are [TS]

  very few good or even great ones and [TS]

  there's a lot of trade-offs to bluetooth [TS]

  headphones that make them not only less [TS]

  good in some ways would actually [TS]

  unusable for certain applications so [TS]

  it's it is not a clean transition i'm [TS]

  guessing that that one like kind of [TS]

  crazy translated million times from [TS]

  different languages story that we got [TS]

  back then back in a month ago or two [TS]

  that one story about how they're just be [TS]

  a passive special lightning adapter for [TS]

  this new revision of the Lightning port [TS]

  that would basically have a DAC on the [TS]

  phone and have it be able to send analog [TS]

  audio through a cheap passive attempt [TS]

  earth through the port into a headphone [TS]

  jack port through like a little breakout [TS]

  cable i think that's pretty plausible [TS]

  and so if they that I think is the most [TS]

  plausible explanation I've heard for why [TS]

  this might not be a big deal if they can [TS]

  make a cheap-ass adapter like that and [TS]

  and you know just said that to you or [TS]

  even included in the box if it's really [TS]

  that cheap and passive they probably [TS]

  won't it'll be more likely they would [TS]

  sell it for thirty bucks but you know [TS]

  the weekend we can dream but i think you [TS]

  know where there's smoke there's usually [TS]

  some fire and I think there's enough [TS]

  smoke around this that I would move it [TS]

  from unlikely to somewhat likely [TS]

  and I think if we if we consider that [TS]

  that like special lightning adapter [TS]

  passive adapter thing that makes it all [TS]

  that makes it more I don't know [TS]

  digestible it's like it makes it suck [TS]

  less [TS]

  basically with all these type of stories [TS]

  like there's a build to the [TS]

  inevitability until we eventually get [TS]

  the real parts leaks especially with the [TS]

  phones you know as the date of the new [TS]

  phone approaches were pretty far away [TS]

  now so I was thinking that this next [TS]

  round of stories about this rumor [TS]

  mmm nudge it slightly more towards the [TS]

  realm of possibility but it's still so [TS]

  far out that it's within the realm of [TS]

  things that could end up being totally [TS]

  wrong but we'll keep watching keep [TS]

  watching it knowledge ever closer and [TS]

  we'll go basically know for sure when [TS]

  the real parts likes come out because I [TS]

  don't think we've had a significant [TS]

  iphone revision and a long time where we [TS]

  haven't got to look at pretty much every [TS]

  piece of this thing all disassembled [TS]

  before it arrives it will probably know [TS]

  it by april or may I mean up and [TS]

  especially like this like you may not [TS]

  know everything like this be [TS]

  can you not you can't figure out all the [TS]

  software features obviously and then [TS]

  hardware features sometimes hard to tell [TS]

  from parts but things like a doesn't [TS]

  have a hole for the headphone port to go [TS]

  and we'll be able to tell just by [TS]

  looking at cases [TS]

  yeah and like the back case is often one [TS]

  of the very first part to leak it kid [TS]

  probably that's something like we'll [TS]

  probably know this one by the spring you [TS]

  know really [TS]

  alright what's awesome these days Marco [TS]

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  we have a book recommendation don't we [TS]

  indeed believe John has one and i have [TS]

  won if you'd like one as well [TS]

  well John the time in your next time as [TS]

  that [TS]

  sounds good or you want to go first no [TS]

  no it's cool kids especially since jon [TS]

  is going to make fun of my book [TS]

  selection so we can definitely save that [TS]

  lets do yours then [TS]

  yeah shouldn't set it so i really [TS]

  enjoyed the book ready player one by [TS]

  Ernest Cline which is I made the mistake [TS]

  of listening to the uncomfortable about [TS]

  it and they basically spent an hour and [TS]

  a half talking about how terrible it is [TS]

  anyway his second book came out happily [TS]

  was in 2015 i could be wrong about that [TS]

  and it's called armada and it is not as [TS]

  good as ready player one which at this [TS]

  point John is seriously rolling his eyes [TS]

  but it is good i did like it if you [TS]

  happen to be a fan of Ender's Game you [TS]

  like this and and or ready player one [TS]

  and it is also narrated by wilwheaton [TS]

  who is kind of an Internet darling and I [TS]

  mean that may not sarcastic way and they [TS]

  not derisive way so i definitely [TS]

  recommend it's apparently just a shade [TS]

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  ready player one is mostly harmless [TS]

  silly garbage like that like we really [TS]

  showed yeah we had fun we have fun [TS]

  making fun of it on the incomparable but [TS]

  it's also it's all in good fun like I [TS]

  think it I think it just because we have [TS]

  a lot of things words it's easy to [TS]

  ridicule the book and then poke added [TS]

  and and find flaws and it's still fun [TS]

  read [TS]

  like I don't regret reading like guess [TS]

  that makes me feel a little baby it's [TS]

  not i don't like to use guilty pleasure [TS]

  because i don't like that concept but [TS]

  it's kinda like it's like junk foods [TS]

  like a bag of potato chips [TS]

  whatever just chomped down on goodness [TS]

  all right well anyway I'm yeah you [TS]

  should check out that you should check [TS]

  out horrible [TS]

  alright so what else are we talking [TS]

  tonight are talking about tonight we see [TS]

  that somebody is fixed apples grievous [TS]

  mistake with the macbook one those two [TS]

  kinds of mistakes are just two things i [TS]

  just happened to see recently and I'm [TS]

  sure there's more the macbook one's got [TS]

  the one little lonely USB [TS]

  sea port on the side of it but USB [TS]

  type-c can do all sorts of stuff that's [TS]

  why it's one port you can put the power [TS]

  through it and you can do all sorts of [TS]

  things and so the first link in this to [TS]

  link said here is for a Griffin device [TS]

  that you plug into USBC port on your [TS]

  macbook one and it gives you back the [TS]

  MagSafe connector sort of basically a [TS]

  magnetic thing that someone tripped over [TS]

  the cord it would become disconnected [TS]

  now i find it interesting for a couple [TS]

  reasons when we first talked about the [TS]

  macbook one you know we would of course [TS]

  discuss the fact that this one connector [TS]

  also replaces magsafe what happened to [TS]

  my exams in makes it great doesn't [TS]

  everybody loved magsafe does everybody [TS]

  love being a literal record not have a [TS]

  yank your computer off the you know the [TS]

  thing or break your adapter whatever is [TS]

  it makes a great feature why would they [TS]

  get rid of it and my question but I [TS]

  still want to answer do because i don't [TS]

  have one of these and you do any of us [TS]

  was maybe you don't need magsafe because [TS]

  maybe the USBC connector so small that [TS]

  if you trip over it it just pops out [TS]

  anyway harmlessly like it's the [TS]

  connector is so small that magsafe is no [TS]

  longer needed [TS]

  I still know if that's the case [TS]

  obviously Griffin thinks that people [TS]

  think it's not the case [TS]

  or maybe they know themselves is not the [TS]

  case because they're saying hey by this [TS]

  adapter whose sole purpose is to provide [TS]

  a magnetic breakaway connection for the [TS]

  power for your laptop and i don't know [TS]

  like I i feel like i would buy this [TS]

  thing by the laptop by itself and i [TS]

  would see it is tripping over the i mean [TS]

  i'm not i would find out more at find [TS]

  out by yanking on to the floor watching [TS]

  the screen crack or something maybe just [TS]

  do some experiments to see but boy it [TS]

  seems a long way to go to fill the one [TS]

  only port on your thing with this giant [TS]

  adapter for dollar giant adapter not yet [TS]

  available that gives you a big magnetic [TS]

  thing we're weird product where product [TS]

  yeah this is I don't know whenever you [TS]

  know whenever there's a computer or [TS]

  technology thing that comes out and and [TS]

  lacks something that came before it [TS]

  there's always a market for third [TS]

  parties to come in and offer the [TS]

  comforts of the previous thing in some [TS]

  kind of bolt-on thing the cost between [TS]

  fourteen hundred dollars like this is [TS]

  like this is true of all technology [TS]

  whenever any progress [TS]

  made and sometimes it's worth using [TS]

  usually it's not in this case and you [TS]

  know Griffin stuff I've had honestly [TS]

  I've had mixed success with Griffin [TS]

  stuff so I i'm not even sure I would [TS]

  trust this to to work and be of high [TS]

  quality so i don't know i don't really [TS]

  see why people would want to to go [TS]

  through the hassle of this and i just [TS]

  have to kind too kind of like bulk up [TS]

  that poor ruin that port I don't know it [TS]

  doesn't seem it seems like this is a [TS]

  problem that that is not worth solving [TS]

  because the solution to it is too clunky [TS]

  itself [TS]

  I don't even know if it's a problem like [TS]

  we don't know the other thing is there's [TS]

  no USB pastor this take your one and [TS]

  only port this fills it with power and [TS]

  that's it so that you know they did I [TS]

  can't believe it even provided a pastor [TS]

  so you could be sure but that that makes [TS]

  it suck really yeah so for forty dollars [TS]

  to fill the one poor anyway it shows [TS]

  like that that's kind of how private [TS]

  companies work i'll use that your you [TS]

  hit the nail right on the head saying [TS]

  someone always makes one of these things [TS]

  that is mostly to make people like you [TS]

  said feel more comfortable i used to [TS]

  have magsafe and regardless of whether i [TS]

  need magsafe now I want to still have it [TS]

  because it makes me feel comfortable [TS]

  maybe it's needed i don't know i haven't [TS]

  done the experiment as far as I know [TS]

  nobody has but another solution to this [TS]

  would be an apple just put enough [TS]

  battery life and that laptop they would [TS]

  need to plug it in all day [TS]

  you gotta plug it in sometime even if [TS]

  you're just putting it somewhere to [TS]

  charge someone walks by your desk in an [TS]

  accent thing [TS]

  yeah but the macbook one has as pretty [TS]

  mediocre battery life on the rest of the [TS]

  lineup it's pretty small [TS]

  yeah this guy like revision will [TS]

  presumably get noticeably better but [TS]

  it's still gonna probably require being [TS]

  plugged in if you're using it all day so [TS]

  the next one is another thing that takes [TS]

  advantage of the versatility of the USB [TS]

  type-c port is even bigger it's a big [TS]

  like rectangular thing that pokes out [TS]

  the side of your macbook one but it [TS]

  gives you a whole mess of ports because [TS]

  you too big normal size USB gives us d [TS]

  car looks like a CF card and also has a [TS]

  pastor for us bc and this one is from [TS]

  hyper this looks nice to me i'm just [TS]

  talking at work today with someone so i [TS]

  think i mentioned in the past that when [TS]

  i'm working these days they're cinema [TS]

  displays everywhere are well really [TS]

  Thunderbolts [TS]

  place i should say and I've always been [TS]

  so jealous because I've always kind of [TS]

  wanted one of those so that i could just [TS]

  sit my laptop down plug in just a couple [TS]

  of cables and then I be connected to [TS]

  ethernet my microphone and and whatnot [TS]

  and and this is a fifty-dollar on sale [TS]

  you know like kind of many docking [TS]

  station and although it doesn't have [TS]

  ethernet which a little bit of a bummer [TS]

  this is the sort of thing that if I had [TS]

  a macbook one I would absolutely stick [TS]

  one of these on my desk in and make it a [TS]

  little easier to use even like what's [TS]

  promising about this too is like you [TS]

  know they're there have always been [TS]

  similar products although never very [TS]

  many of them for thunderbolt and they [TS]

  were always basically from like two [TS]

  hundred dollars and up [TS]

  mm so this it's probably the USB stuff [TS]

  is so cheap to make [TS]

  even though it is obviously a little [TS]

  more limited like technically then the [TS]

  Thunderbolt but this is nice [TS]

  what's it a few more things first of all [TS]

  this is very very small and it like [TS]

  seems to fit the profile pretty well of [TS]

  the laptop so that's nice to hear you it [TS]

  it's small but like it's compared it's a [TS]

  small laptop compared to the size light [TS]

  add significantly to the laptop [TS]

  percentage-wise i feel like i could [TS]

  changes you from your little tiny [TS]

  portable thing to something that's [TS]

  really big here is the thing that [TS]

  worries me a lot when i look at it is [TS]

  the USBC port the only mechanical [TS]

  connection between this again like small [TS]

  and absolute size but larger relative [TS]

  size is that the only connection to the [TS]

  thing like what have you tried to pick [TS]

  this thing up from the side of the [TS]

  adapter and accidentally grabbed a [TS]

  little bit below the spc but would you [TS]

  twist and crack this thing off and it [TS]

  doesn't seem to have any other means of [TS]

  connecting itself the thing other than [TS]

  the USBC but i'm sure it's it's [TS]

  lightweight and everything just what it [TS]

  looks like is extending your laptop [TS]

  sideways by an inch but it's not it's [TS]

  like I don't know it just seems like it [TS]

  is a lever made to break that connector [TS]

  yeah good point this well and again you [TS]

  can look at this stuff like I i think if [TS]

  you're going to be connecting things to [TS]

  your macbook on a regular basis the [TS]

  macbook one is probably not the right [TS]

  model for you you know because we like [TS]

  we know a lot of people who have these [TS]

  things most of whom love them and the [TS]

  the number one thing we hear from these [TS]

  people who love them whenever the port [TS]

  conversation comes up is they don't [TS]

  really are playing in [TS]

  so it's fine and I think if you're going [TS]

  to be plugging things in just get either [TS]

  an air or the presumed soon to be coming [TS]

  sky like 13 inch pro which should [TS]

  probably be pretty competitive than [TS]

  missing lightness wise to the 13 chair [TS]

  but we'll see [TS]

  yeah i think this though but especially [TS]

  the the price like you said Mark I mean [TS]

  that is stunningly cheap yeah 50 bucks I [TS]

  mean you can't get a thunderbolt cable [TS]

  four 55s seriously probably can now [TS]

  please don't even know me but you [TS]

  couldn't do first [TS]

  it reminds me of like a pc peripherals [TS]

  because it's like a CF card reader [TS]

  really no it's not it's not no it's SD [TS]

  and microSD yeah I I maybe I'm [TS]

  misjudging the size 10 because [TS]

  everything is relative to the size of [TS]

  the mackerel keep forgetting how darn [TS]

  small thing actually is so yeah but [TS]

  anyway the SD of the micro-st it if you [TS]

  took out those two slots then you [TS]

  wouldn't have such a long lever with [TS]

  which to crack off the USBC connector [TS]

  but you know there will be a it's almost [TS]

  as if I think like go full-length [TS]

  internet like seven more slots or go [TS]

  even shorter and just add the full-size [TS]

  USB you know and the pastor I don't know [TS]

  I don't know anyway people apparently [TS]

  buying them so excited you can't really [TS]

  go that far wrong for fifty bucks and [TS]

  and i would definitely recommend for [TS]

  people who have their laptop on their [TS]

  desk like not for people who are [TS]

  constantly picking it up and carrying it [TS]

  place to place or if you want to travel [TS]

  with it and like if you wanna be like on [TS]

  the plane but you have like plain old [TS]

  USB peripherals that you need to use or [TS]

  you want to be swapping SD card to do [TS]

  but you know pulling pictures of cameras [TS]

  while you're sitting in your plane seat [TS]

  I wouldn't want this thing hanging out [TS]

  the side while I'm trying to handle my [TS]

  thing on the tray anyway [TS]

  well see to me I i think this would [TS]

  actually the opposite way i would say [TS]

  for a desk you want something with like [TS]

  one cable that plugs in and have some [TS]

  kind of breakout box with the other [TS]

  stuff in it that way you can kind of get [TS]

  it away from the side of the computer [TS]

  and not have the stress on there every [TS]

  single day and kind of make a cleaner [TS]

  desk if you can if you can hide that [TS]

  stuff somewhere behind a desk or under [TS]

  ever whereas the this one I think we [TS]

  better for travel because you get [TS]

  adaptability to these three different [TS]

  port types in one small thing that [TS]

  doesn't have itself it's own cable so 44 [TS]

  like sighs and [TS]

  tidiness in a travel bag full of other [TS]

  cable adapters and computer junk this [TS]

  would actually be a big win i think i [TS]

  was saying on the desk [TS]

  mostly because then there's less chance [TS]

  of meeting someone lifting up and crack [TS]

  nothing off you know because explain [TS]

  flat on the desk [TS]

  yeah and you can manipulate it and stick [TS]

  the things into it you're right like it [TS]

  is even better will be a cable that [TS]

  snakes away from the thing and it does [TS]

  work well for travel in terms of clutter [TS]

  but I don't know it just makes me [TS]

  nervous just looking at like I keep [TS]

  looking at that because of pictures like [TS]

  it really is just a little tiny [TS]

  connector it just doesn't seem the same [TS]

  right [TS]

  yeah that that would make me nervous as [TS]

  well to be honest but I mean it's not [TS]

  the thing is I think you're not going to [TS]

  break the computer with that you're [TS]

  going to break the adapter because the [TS]

  computer has the aluminum case like [TS]

  laser-cut opening around that that's not [TS]

  you're not going to break the computer [TS]

  by twisting the thing I'd feel like [TS]

  you're going to break the or maybe it [TS]

  would be just a battle between two [TS]

  pieces of aluminum see which one I don't [TS]

  know the world's least interesting [TS]

  battle [TS]

  yeah well it's exactly all these people [TS]

  are doing like the yeah was it a mkbhd [TS]

  whatever was doing his stabbing the the [TS]

  iphone 6 suppose that iphone 6 screens [TS]

  with a knife and everything we need the [TS]

  even more boring equivalent of that of [TS]

  let's that stress test the connector on [TS]

  this USB hub type thing because that's [TS]

  that's our domain if we have a youtube [TS]

  channel will be all USB hubs ok you hear [TS]

  you heard it here first type of shop [TS]

  send us one of these to review along [TS]

  with a macbook one that you don't want [TS]

  and we will do this to mr. on the air [TS]

  pretty remarkable film it on his fancy [TS]

  still image camera that's also kind of a [TS]

  video camera [TS]

  yeah all right anything else on this [TS]

  thing I can't believe this is the news [TS]

  this week it's like it's this is like [TS]

  this is why I hate CES because the only [TS]

  news that happens is either like [TS]

  pie-in-the-sky stuff that will never [TS]

  come out or like USB port news [TS]

  it's like it's not with some CS news [TS]

  like people keep sending me the stories [TS]

  about the like OLED TVs that are going [TS]

  to be shown or announced that CS and [TS]

  maybe they have been by today but i [TS]

  haven't caught up on the story said I [TS]

  basically just wait for CS to be over [TS]

  and then find the summary stories to [TS]

  pick out the three things that were [TS]

  actually good or interesting and say yes [TS]

  and then just read that that's really [TS]

  all but I CS is good for people who are [TS]

  interested in TV is you [TS]

  they find out that like it's a it's not [TS]

  an interesting year where nothing good [TS]

  has happened or you find out like [TS]

  however still obsessed with 3d or [TS]

  everyone is still obsessed with curved [TS]

  screens or some other chemical you don't [TS]

  like this year the gimmick seems to be [TS]

  identical range which I am interested in [TS]

  and I hope is an emerging standards and [TS]

  will be like this is a picture it's a [TS]

  legitimate picture quality improvement [TS]

  not something that's chemically like 3d [TS]

  and not something that's ridiculous like [TS]

  the curve so I I'm glad for that to be [TS]

  the new thing this year but if it's the [TS]

  new thing this mirror that means all the [TS]

  televisions that have any kind of [TS]

  support for this year going to be like [TS]

  the very first generation that tries to [TS]

  support and maybe they're competing [TS]

  standards and that's all I got to work [TS]

  itself out so it's still not time to buy [TS]

  a TV but i'd like to read about that but [TS]

  I haven't yet so I don't think so yes is [TS]

  a total loss is just like a ninety-eight [TS]

  percent loss [TS]

  wow what a low bar that we expect it [TS]

  God soso John your summary of the TV [TS]

  news coming out of CES is I'm ready yet [TS]

  that's my i will give next week i will [TS]

  know more but my summary is it seems [TS]

  like I dynamic ranges the thing is here [TS]

  and I don't know whether everyone is [TS]

  over the curved screen thing it freaking [TS]

  we should we should actually said i [TS]

  would love to send you to las vegas for [TS]

  this week just just to just to capture [TS]

  the misery of that trip that like I [TS]

  would be I would go for that if it was [TS]

  just to film you being there nobody [TS]

  wants to go to see nobody does that's [TS]

  the thing that I think people understand [TS]

  like for those who know a lot of people [TS]

  who cover CS as part of their job [TS]

  nobody likes it like people like going [TS]

  to back a day people like going to [TS]

  Macworld to cover it if you're [TS]

  interested in apple stuff people like [TS]

  going to w3c people like going to google [TS]

  i/o if you're interested in Google's up [TS]

  nobody likes going to see us [TS]

  nobody i'm i think a lot about who is [TS]

  this for I guess it's is it for like [TS]

  retailers or advertisers John it's the [TS]

  consumer electronics Sean [TS]

  no I mean it seems like there's a lot of [TS]

  legitimate reasons for some people to be [TS]

  there seems like there's a lot of like [TS]

  meeting with the reps that happens in [TS]

  private meetings that can be very useful [TS]

  to people but to actually be on the show [TS]

  floor I don't really know who that's for [TS]

  necessarily besides like people who are [TS]

  tasked with covering it and who as you [TS]

  said usually hate this job because it is [TS]

  grueling and and pretty pretty intense [TS]

  but even people who are meeting with the [TS]

  reps behind closed doors I think they [TS]

  like the meetings but they wish they [TS]

  could meet basically anywhere in the [TS]

  world of the CGS like all come to your [TS]

  city where is your company located i [TS]

  will fly the your city and do i mean i [TS]

  guess maybe it seems I just I just never [TS]

  heard anyone say I can't wait to go to [TS]

  see yes [TS]

  nobody not vendors not people who are [TS]

  going to meet with vendors like maybe [TS]

  the most circles on traveling like [TS]

  people who were like some a buyer for a [TS]

  big store chain like the best buy person [TS]

  or something you want to go to see what [TS]

  they're gonna buy for that maybe they [TS]

  look forward to it just seems it's like [TS]

  the worst of it I think of everything [TS]

  that's bad about conferences and [TS]

  concentrated and then i can multiply by [TS]

  5 kinda like III used to be but at least [TS]

  III was exciting for people who weren't [TS]

  there like even III was at its worst [TS]

  I've ever been to three but i know a lot [TS]

  of people have even III was at its worst [TS]

  was just completely overblown and nobody [TS]

  really you know it's exhausting and [TS]

  nobody wanted to cover it [TS]

  it was exciting for people who weren't [TS]

  there because he would say I can't wait [TS]

  to see what announced at e3 so you know [TS]

  if you want you want to read the [TS]

  coverage you get excited but my [TS]

  impression of cs is that people who are [TS]

  there don't want to be there and people [TS]

  aren't there don't want to read about [TS]

  mysterious our second punch this week is [TS]

  a glue go to a glue / ATP [TS]

  for internet you will actually like [TS]

  anyone has worked in a corporate [TS]

  environment knows how painful Internet [TS]

  can be the contents tail the interface [TS]

  is ugly and you can't access on your [TS]

  phone or any kind of modern device made [TS]

  after the year 2010 now igloo is an [TS]

  internet you will actually like because [TS]

  it is designed with modern technology [TS]

  and modern sensibilities for real [TS]

  usability Italy give you the flexibility [TS]

  to get your work done how you want where [TS]

  you want and whatever device you want [TS]

  their truly building a product meant for [TS]

  2016 and beyond [TS]

  not the nineties [TS]

  with a glue internets you can share news [TS]

  organize your files coordinate calendars [TS]

  and manage projects all in one place [TS]

  everything can be optionally social with [TS]

  comments like buttons revisions messages [TS]

  and anyone can add content based on [TS]

  their permissions with drag-and-drop [TS]

  widgets and what you see is what you get [TS]

  editor in a blue makes use of responsive [TS]

  web design so it looks fantastic on all [TS]

  your devices whether they exist today or [TS]

  where they're going to come out tomorrow [TS]

  it will already look good because it is [TS]

  fully responsive modern web design with [TS]

  modern social and and collaborative [TS]

  features that so that you won't have [TS]

  your employees going out to use things [TS]

  like you know dropbox and Twitter and [TS]

  like all the stuff that is public that [TS]

  you that you want to keep the stuff [TS]

  inside your company inside your internet [TS]

  igloo is very corporate friendly they [TS]

  that they're very secure the vehicle is [TS]

  granting permissions all the stuff that [TS]

  you need to sell to your company [TS]

  it's even free to use forever for up to [TS]

  10 people so check it out today a glue [TS]

  software com / ATP free to use up to 10 [TS]

  people and very reasonably priced after [TS]

  that and at any size you get a free [TS]

  trial so check it out today it was [TS]

  software com / ATP for that free trial [TS]

  get started now thanks a lot to glue the [TS]

  internet you'll actually like so a few [TS]

  weeks ago we started talking about Swift [TS]

  being open sourced and then we got [TS]

  sidetracked by i'm not even sure what [TS]

  but here we are again scraping at the [TS]

  bottom of the barrel so why don't we [TS]

  talk a little more about switched open [TS]

  source and actually talk about something [TS]

  that's cool which is the swift code of [TS]

  conduct or if you let me talk with the [TS]

  mac pro some more so that without the [TS]

  swift code of conduct [TS]

  yeah we got to order the equivalent of [TS]

  the ball gets a burrowing topic after [TS]

  this but the code of conduct is a thing [TS]

  that has been happening over the past [TS]

  I'd say year so has become more popular [TS]

  every sort of open source project or [TS]

  volunteer based community thing or [TS]

  conferences around sort of any sort of [TS]

  ad hoc collection of people especially [TS]

  in the tech world has been starting to [TS]

  have an actual written down code of [TS]

  conduct that is exactly what it sounds [TS]

  like it's sort of yeah [TS]

  set set of rules or expectations of [TS]

  behavior like just to give examples you [TS]

  could have a code of conduct for [TS]

  I don't know a website where people join [TS]

  want to talk about knitting and the code [TS]

  of conduct could say if you want to [TS]

  participate and admitting forms and talk [TS]

  about knitting [TS]

  we don't want you to use curse words or [TS]

  whatever and then you can decide hey I [TS]

  don't want to be part of a community [TS]

  where I can't curse so you won't join [TS]

  that knitting community right but it [TS]

  sets clear expectations like here is how [TS]

  we expect people to behave and it gives [TS]

  you something like if someone misbehave [TS]

  you can point the code of conduct hey we [TS]

  have a code of conduct here this is how [TS]

  it's going to be these are the rules if [TS]

  you don't like it you should go [TS]

  someplace that's a different set of [TS]

  rules and it's like that for open source [TS]

  projects for conferences where like I'm [TS]

  going to show this conference is going [TS]

  to be a conference my favorite [TS]

  programming language and there's going [TS]

  to be talks and everything what are the [TS]

  expectations what what kind of behavior [TS]

  isn't allowed what who [TS]

  how how are the people in this community [TS]

  expected to be a there's been minimal [TS]

  push back to the idea of a code of [TS]

  conduct is a lot of nerds are very [TS]

  literal-minded and don't really see the [TS]

  nuances and things is a well code of [TS]

  conduct doesn't actually make people [TS]

  behave in a certain way you're right it [TS]

  doesn't but by writing it down you're [TS]

  setting expectations i can do for kids [TS]

  or whatever there any sort of that it [TS]

  just it's it's more comfortable to know [TS]

  what is expected because that was [TS]

  everybody decide if they want to be a [TS]

  part of a community with this set of [TS]

  sort of rules and guidelines if you know [TS]

  we're going to get interesting thing if [TS]

  you think not being allowed to curse is [TS]

  stupid you know right away this is not [TS]

  in any community for me I should go [TS]

  someplace else where people are knitting [TS]

  and also like the curse right and on a [TS]

  minute stuff in terms of like making [TS]

  jokes other peoples expense or like any [TS]

  sort of aggressive behavior and even [TS]

  just right now stuff like no violence no [TS]

  hitting other people so I guess mostly [TS]

  like that you do for little kids you set [TS]

  the expectations of you know here's how [TS]

  you expected to behave in preschool [TS]

  no biting your friends expect you to [TS]

  share the teacher is talking expect you [TS]

  to listen you know everybody eats at [TS]

  this time and maps at this time or [TS]

  whatever you doesn't mean that's all [TS]

  going to happen but you just want to [TS]

  write it down and I said the pushback is [TS]

  mostly of people thinking that you are [TS]

  you saying if we don't have a code of [TS]

  conduct we allow those things are the [TS]

  stuff [TS]

  to go without saying or writing it down [TS]

  makes it seem like we're we're telling [TS]

  people that are coming here that are [TS]

  going to behave badly why do we need to [TS]

  write down stuff like don't murder [TS]

  people like they should know that [TS]

  already or are you trying to make it [TS]

  sound like we're a bunch of murderers [TS]

  here or really what's under the covers a [TS]

  lot of it is [TS]

  say you're just coming up with the code [TS]

  of conduct can be like especially like [TS]

  programming projects or whatever like if [TS]

  there are debates about technical issues [TS]

  which we'll get to in a second debate [TS]

  the issue don't debate the person don't [TS]

  know ad hominem attacks when you're [TS]

  discussing some features and programming [TS]

  language or open-source project don't [TS]

  call the other people other person's [TS]

  jerk or an idiot [TS]

  do not attack the person or that person [TS]

  is personal history keep your debate to [TS]

  the topic at hand and again this may [TS]

  sound like yeah these all sound like [TS]

  reasonable rules whatever it's like [TS]

  little things you do for kids but at a [TS]

  certain point people push back against [TS]

  that an example is the linux kernel [TS]

  mailing list where linus torvalds or [TS]

  penis or ever you want to set the [TS]

  creator of linux very often is that uses [TS]

  very salty language so again like [TS]

  bending form of linux kernel mountain [TS]

  was totally allowed to use curse words [TS]

  that's in there you know if they had a [TS]

  contract which i'm not sure if you do [TS]

  but if they did it would be in there [TS]

  because that's that's sort of what to [TS]

  expect and has been known to say pretty [TS]

  mean things about people not just about [TS]

  their thing you know like it's it's a [TS]

  it's a there is a fine line am i calling [TS]

  when I say this is the stupidest idea [TS]

  I've ever heard [TS]

  I'm kind of criticizing the idea but I'm [TS]

  also kind of being mean about it or [TS]

  whatever anyway that community has [TS]

  pushed back against the idea of trying [TS]

  to be more civil to each other or more [TS]

  civil to each others ideas or anything [TS]

  like that so that's you know that's the [TS]

  kind of community one if you were to [TS]

  come in there and they were to try to [TS]

  come up with a code of conduct and they [TS]

  make a set of rules that past behavior [TS]

  doesn't fit into the people with the [TS]

  past behavior feel like they're now [TS]

  being excluded from the community that [TS]

  they're important part anyway all this [TS]

  is a big grand way to say that Swift is [TS]

  doing what I think is the right thing [TS]

  which is from the very beginning having [TS]

  a go to conduct and I look at the code [TS]

  of conduct and it seems pretty saying [TS]

  and and pretty tame and i think it is a [TS]

  good thing for anybody whether it's in a [TS]

  preschool or knitting club or an open [TS]

  source project or website [TS]

  to our web form or anything to write [TS]

  down their code of conduct as early as [TS]

  possible and revisited as needed and [TS]

  amended and clarify and so on so forth [TS]

  just to have a starting point and a [TS]

  guideline instead of just assuming [TS]

  everybody will behave and all agree [TS]

  about what proper behavior is it's [TS]

  pretty sad that it's come to this point [TS]

  but i think that the one universal [TS]

  internet truth is that even if you don't [TS]

  act like a petulant child upfront anyone [TS]

  on the internet is but the smallest push [TS]

  away from being a petulant child and and [TS]

  i agree with you this is a good thing to [TS]

  have this reminds me of the post by was [TS]

  randi harper's that right that because [TS]

  that shows what happens if you don't [TS]

  have a code of conduct and if you don't [TS]

  think about these issues right so she [TS]

  had posted this is freebsd or well the [TS]

  the woman who used to be known as [TS]

  previously girl she posted recently [TS]

  really really good and not terribly long [TS]

  post about how she was treated in the [TS]

  bsd community and its really pretty [TS]

  deplorable and in its in you could argue [TS]

  just like Marco said that is in no small [TS]

  part because they didn't really have an [TS]

  established code of conduct and then [TS]

  even when they did if you believe what [TS]

  she says which I do you know they didn't [TS]

  act they didn't act fairly once once [TS]

  there were issues escalated which is [TS]

  really too bad but that will put a link [TS]

  to that in the show notes in and if you [TS]

  work in any sort of community I i highly [TS]

  recommend reading her post because it it [TS]

  was fascinating and a code of conduct by [TS]

  as many people that does not guarantee [TS]

  good behavior because there's issues of [TS]

  enforcement and those debates about how [TS]

  should things be enforced is it [TS]

  enforceable at all like another reason [TS]

  people shy away from code of conduct as [TS]

  I think it opens up this big can of [TS]

  orange nail off the debates but these [TS]

  are these are important things to talk [TS]

  about and it's better to talk about them [TS]

  before anything has happened like sorted [TS]

  out amongst yourselves not in not in [TS]

  light of some actual event because it's [TS]

  so much harder to figure it out in life [TS]

  no it's very difficult to come up with a [TS]

  good set of rules and figure out how [TS]

  you're going to enforce them and to [TS]

  follow through on it but it's so much [TS]

  better to engage in that process than to [TS]

  bury your head in the sand because [TS]

  engagement process will first of all [TS]

  people making the policies that will [TS]

  force you to think about things like [TS]

  hopefully you'll go and say let me look [TS]

  at the people's code of conduct let me [TS]

  look what they wrote down and I think [TS]

  collectively all the codes of conduct of [TS]

  various the communities and open-source [TS]

  products are getting better by looking [TS]

  at each other in the open source kind of [TS]

  way and say what are they run down how [TS]

  they phrase this what kind of all I [TS]

  didn't even think of that we should put [TS]

  that into because I believe that but it [TS]

  wouldn't have even occurred to me to [TS]

  write it because i'm not in that group [TS]

  of marginalized people and didn't [TS]

  realize that was the thing we had to [TS]

  write down but i totally agree with that [TS]

  now that i see it and you know get it [TS]

  all down ahead of time and then you're [TS]

  gonna have you no incidents and then you [TS]

  have to figure out how to deal with them [TS]

  and then you look at half of the palpa [TS]

  dealt with events and read you know it [TS]

  read Randy's thing and say here's how [TS]

  this community tried to deal with this [TS]

  event and here here's how it went badly [TS]

  how can we avoid that [TS]

  what kind of policies can we have in [TS]

  place to help with it no one's gonna be [TS]

  perfect it's not a guarantee of anything [TS]

  it just shows that you are engaged in [TS]

  the process that you are committed to [TS]

  the idea that you can manage your [TS]

  community to be what you wanted to be to [TS]

  be a more welcoming community to be a [TS]

  successful community for the kind of [TS]

  people that you want you can make a code [TS]

  of conduct that sets totally different [TS]

  kinds of rules but it's so much better [TS]

  to just think about like Who I want what [TS]

  I want here [TS]

  do I want people who are really [TS]

  technically skilled but also really [TS]

  really angry and mean all the time if [TS]

  you want that like right into your code [TS]

  of conduct like that there's an [TS]

  expectation you'll be berated and curse [TS]

  that and we only accept people who have [TS]

  the highest of skills i'd like to build [TS]

  the community you want for yourself [TS]

  whatever it is that you want but it's [TS]

  much better to to take on that task as [TS]

  an actual thing rather than falling [TS]

  ass-backwards into it's sort of like you [TS]

  just end up with this community and [TS]

  you're not quite sure how you got there [TS]

  so that that's what I think the [TS]

  important buttons and switches very [TS]

  sensible and they're coming it [TS]

  relatively late in the game to Swift was [TS]

  an open source project until recently [TS]

  and I think they're benefiting from [TS]

  all the other code of conduct that have [TS]

  come before them and at this point it's [TS]

  kind of the type of thing where if you [TS]

  are a community or an open source [TS]

  project without a code of conduct people [TS]

  are going to ask why why don't you have [TS]

  one [TS]

  maybe you should think about not the [TS]

  same your bed or anything but they're [TS]

  saying you may not have thought too much [TS]

  about this but history has shown that is [TS]

  a good thing to have and the active [TS]

  thinking about it will lead you to be a [TS]

  better community [TS]

  agreed alright what else is going on [TS]

  with Swift this is a program every topic [TS]

  enough market talks about all these [TS]

  under the radar but I save one for here [TS]

  I think you got to this one's kind of [TS]

  esoteric but I continue to follow the [TS]

  Swift evolution mailing list or try to [TS]

  follow anyway it's still still pretty [TS]

  high volume where the people talk about [TS]

  the future Swift and make proposals and [TS]

  debate them and go through all sorts of [TS]

  things this big process of evolving [TS]

  Swift is becoming more formalized with [TS]

  different phases of whatever anyway this [TS]

  one particular proposal that I thought [TS]

  started to get at the heart of what [TS]

  seems to be one of the big internal [TS]

  struggles between Swift and the [TS]

  community formerly known as the [TS]

  objective-c development community [TS]

  I guess they're still not as that but [TS]

  anyway all the people are writing all [TS]

  the code objective-c an apple saying you [TS]

  guys should think about moving Swift [TS]

  some point because we are and this is a [TS]

  debate around things that are allowed [TS]

  and disallowed static and dynamic you [TS]

  know free or clamp down and this [TS]

  particular one is about whether classes [TS]

  should be final by default in Swift as [TS]

  in if you don't say anything one way or [TS]

  the other in your defining class and [TS]

  Swift should that class b sub classical [TS]

  and commendable and be able to do you [TS]

  know extended and have things [TS]

  overwritten or by default should be all [TS]

  closed up and you can't screw with it [TS]

  and it's not really a question about [TS]

  capability because no one is saying all [TS]

  classes should be all closed up and [TS]

  final for all classes should be open [TS]

  it's just a question of what the [TS]

  defaults are in the defaults have two [TS]

  effects one is obviously affects [TS]

  the actual code because a lot of people [TS]

  just take the default right you know and [TS]

  then so if if no one does anything and [TS]

  they just do class and I don't know [TS]

  about this particular keyword don't [TS]

  think about it what do they get by [TS]

  default and the second thing is by [TS]

  choosing the default if people think [TS]

  about it for a little bit they'll see [TS]

  it's like a signal from the design [TS]

  language we think most of your classes [TS]

  should be like this it's the default but [TS]

  if you have special needs make your [TS]

  class like this and like having a java [TS]

  you know the default is not final [TS]

  I don't know my job i think that's the [TS]

  case and so what they're saying is by [TS]

  default in Java of you declare a class [TS]

  you can sub class but that that's that's [TS]

  we think that's the common case but if [TS]

  you have special needs like say for [TS]

  performance reasons or you really don't [TS]

  want people extending your class you can [TS]

  declare it to be final by adding this [TS]

  other keyword and so that means that [TS]

  most people just like a Java class blah [TS]

  blah blah blah [TS]

  they're all getting glasses it could be [TS]

  some class and extended all that stuff [TS]

  because that's the default and also [TS]

  philosophically speaking it's so clear [TS]

  the java really expect people to [TS]

  subclass your stuff and that the [TS]

  exception to the rule is all you wanna [TS]

  make you think finally all closed off or [TS]

  whatever sorry if I'm getting this job [TS]

  mrs. this job a default thing backwards [TS]

  i haven't touched job in a really long [TS]

  time somebody named job and not 13 in [TS]

  the chat says it is not final by default [TS]

  and I think they would probably know [TS]

  because their name is java nuts well [TS]

  yeah there's no way they could have [TS]

  changed their name to java not know but [TS]

  anyway yeah i think my recollection [TS]

  anyway so the proposal for swift is to [TS]

  default final and this would make swift [TS]

  one of those languages is saying most of [TS]

  the time when you make glasses we expect [TS]

  them to be like done but sometimes you [TS]

  might want someone to be able to extend [TS]

  your class and in that case we want you [TS]

  to have to put a special keyword or [TS]

  whatever in there to say all other [TS]

  people like I'm writing a base class and [TS]

  other people are supposed to subclass me [TS]

  and override these three methods do this [TS]

  other thing and this is really again [TS]

  it's not really like a technical debate [TS]

  because both things would still be [TS]

  possible this is really a sort of battle [TS]

  for the heart and soul of what Swift is [TS]

  and what objective c has been [TS]

  I i pulled a little quote here from [TS]

  Jordan row so i think is a someone that [TS]

  Apple although it's very difficult to [TS]

  tell miss evolution list when people are [TS]

  speaking for themselves as users of [TS]

  swiftor as contributors to the open [TS]

  source product and when they're speaking [TS]

  as Apple employees kind of implicitly no [TS]

  one has ever speaking for Apple because [TS]

  no one speaks for Apple except the team [TS]

  coco i guess but when there's an apple [TS]

  com in their email address like just I [TS]

  don't notice that is their opinion carry [TS]

  more weight i still haven't quite sorted [TS]

  out the sort of uneasy dance between at [TS] people like Apple employees [TS]

  working on swift and VA the unwashed [TS]

  masses of the Swift community and how [TS]

  that power balance works and most of the [TS]

  most part the back-and-forth has been [TS]

  very polite and mostly so i think that [TS]

  most people realize look apples doing [TS]

  most of the work here and I made the [TS]

  language Apple is going to do most of [TS]

  the work here so we can have some input [TS]

  the bottom line isn't heart you will [TS]

  never develop Swift on your own or you [TS]

  seven people are going to take swift and [TS]

  run with that [TS]

  no probably not so all you can really do [TS]

  is give your opinion anyway a lot of [TS]

  what this default final thing comes down [TS]

  to is the expectation by Objective C [TS]

  programmers that any sort of framework [TS]

  anything in the framework that's like [TS]

  not behaving correctly or that you're [TS]

  making a subclass of that you can just [TS]

  override methods that you want to behave [TS]

  in a slightly different way like you can [TS]

  even do a lot of interesting things with [TS]

  UI kit and a half get by overriding [TS]

  things in subclasses even things that [TS]

  you know overriding them in ways maybe [TS]

  that you know to turn something into a [TS]

  no operand make something happen a side [TS]

  effect when it didn't have before even [TS]

  to do things like me objective-c runtime [TS]

  reach in and do what I think they called [TS]

  methodists whistling where you just [TS]

  reach in there and you screw with the [TS]

  implementation of a base class not even [TS]

  a subclass but you say you know you've [TS]

  got a blonde method i would like you [TS]

  I'll save a reference to what the [TS]

  original blonde method was but instead [TS]

  point your entry for the blog method to [TS]

  my code that will do some other crap and [TS]

  then call your code and that will modify [TS]

  everybody uses this grass not my sub [TS]

  class but the base glass everywhere and [TS]

  those are the types of things you can do [TS]

  when classes are not entirely closed off [TS]

  when you have access to their guts [TS]

  can screw with them and then you know [TS]

  subclassing above and beyond that so i [TS]

  get back to what Jordan Rhodes said here [TS]

  he says supporting arbitrary code [TS]

  injection into someone else's framework [TS]

  is a non goal for swift perhaps even an [TS]

  anti goal if you replace a method and [TS]

  someone else's class you don't actually [TS]

  know what semantics that relying on of [TS]

  course Apple code will have bugs in it [TS]

  trying to patch over those bugs in your [TS]

  own code is one obviously not an answer [TS]

  apple support but also too fraught with [TS]

  peril and three likely to break in the [TS]

  next OS release this is referring [TS]

  specifically to third-party developers [TS]

  saying when things are open and able to [TS]

  be screwed with sometimes that's the [TS]

  only way we can ship hard a map because [TS]

  you've got a bug somewhere deep in your [TS]

  framework and sometimes we can you sub [TS]

  classes and enough for us to fix and I'm [TS]

  to the region to the guts and and mess [TS]

  with a method just to make our appt not [TS]

  crash we can't wait for you to fix the [TS]

  bug apple and a point 1 release because [TS]

  that could be two months around we need [TS]

  to ship now and our application doesn't [TS]

  run on the new OS that you're about to [TS]

  release so we love to be able to go into [TS]

  some framework thing and new [TS]

  quantitative methods are messing with in [TS]

  a certain way to work around some [TS]

  strange bug or even it's just a simple [TS]

  like an animation bug or something that [TS]

  crashes you're out but nobody else is [TS]

  that third-party developers are used to [TS]

  be having the freedom of the objective-c [TS]

  runtime to mess with these things but [TS]

  Swift really doesn't want that type of [TS]

  thing to happen Swift would like it if [TS]

  in the future that the you know that [TS]

  that is not you know get it's not [TS]

  something I want to support they don't [TS]

  want you to be able to reach into [TS]

  anyone's framework apples or anybody [TS]

  else's and say oh you have a bug in [TS]

  there I'm gonna fix your mug for you or [TS]

  I want your thing almost does what i [TS]

  want but this is one behavior doesn't [TS]

  have I would like it that if you did [TS]

  this one thing I actually didn't trigger [TS]

  this other action so I'm just going to [TS]

  reach into your guts and screw with it [TS]

  and programmers to get used to that [TS]

  freedom it's kinda like a that's the [TS]

  last resort but it's nice that it's [TS]

  there but if you are a developer of [TS]

  frameworks you don't know everything to [TS]

  the guts your craft messing with it is [TS]

  like you don't know what you don't know [TS]

  what the semantics of my framework are [TS]

  you don't know what invariance the ear [TS]

  violet your-your-your violated by [TS]

  messing with that value I don't want you [TS]

  touching my this this member variable [TS]

  you're not even supposed to exist that [TS]

  might disappear and then s next OS [TS]

  version I don't want you messing with [TS]

  ending and things that Michael because [TS]

  you don't you don't have [TS]

  source code instead even if you did is [TS]

  my framework is supposed to be like a [TS]

  black box to you just use the public API [TS]

  don't mess with my implementation and i [TS]

  thought this this battle which is linked [TS]

  to the MJ sighs blog post a link to a [TS]

  bunch of discussion and to the man with [TS]

  itself without losing my list i know [TS]

  this is country was fascinating because [TS]

  it really does get at the heart of the [TS]

  old guard vs the new guard and Swift and [TS]

  I really want to hear both of your [TS]

  opinions as I because i don't know what [TS]

  the c-sharp world is like but I do know [TS]

  what the objective c worlds like so and [TS]

  Marco if he's ever had to reach into [TS]

  some objective c framework and screw [TS]

  with it to get his application ship and [TS]

  Casey what he thinks of this entire [TS]

  battle between the the world of [TS]

  framework authors vs the world of [TS]

  application developers [TS]

  I mean I've never had to swizzle to do [TS]

  anything that to me is a is over the [TS]

  line of like you really really shouldn't [TS]

  do that like that is more dangerous [TS]

  subclassing things that that are [TS]

  intended to be subclassed in especially [TS]

  in uikit I do that a lot and or not a [TS]

  lot but I you know I've done that you [TS]

  know numerous times over the years i'm [TS]

  pretty sure overcast does it does a [TS]

  little bit of that reinventing my own [TS]

  methods to override parent methods in [TS]

  those sub classes that are intended to [TS]

  be overwritten I've done that almost I [TS]

  totally get it from the developer [TS]

  perspective of almost always there is [TS]

  something you want to do an app that is [TS]

  that there's no other way to do it [TS]

  besides sub classing up some UI kit [TS]

  thing and you know including my own [TS]

  child version of a method and and just [TS]

  hoping I call super at the right time if [TS]

  I have to at all and just hope nothing [TS]

  bad happens [TS]

  testing it on the one released that I [TS]

  had access to and then shipping and [TS]

  hoping it doesn't break in the future [TS]

  that to me and and this is all like you [TS]

  know your your subclassing but I want to [TS]

  do some subclassing public method so [TS]

  there is some documentation on them some [TS]

  public expectation of how they should [TS]

  behave they're fairly stable so that has [TS]

  never actually caused problems that i [TS]

  know of to do that that way [TS]

  and they're there really have been a lot [TS]

  of these occasions where the there's a [TS]

  limitation in the in the public API [TS]

  there's just no better way to do this or [TS]

  there is no lived with no other way to [TS]

  do this at all and so you have to do [TS]

  stuff like that [TS]

  this is one of those things where in [TS]

  theory it would be nice if you never had [TS]

  to do this and if they were if you can [TS]

  have all the technical advantages of not [TS]

  doing this in a similar way that in [TS]

  theory it would be nice if every mac app [TS]

  with sandboxed you know and then in [TS]

  practice these these strict technical [TS]

  limitations get in the way of reality in [TS]

  real-world use and they they kind of [TS]

  require a level of of competence and [TS]

  perfection and expansiveness from apple [TS]

  and it's frameworks that in reality [TS]

  probably won't come and so it's one of [TS]

  the key in theory it's great in three [TS]

  the having everything be final by [TS]

  default and having no overrides possible [TS]

  that sounds great for for academic [TS]

  theoretical safety but in practice I [TS]

  don't think modern developers with [TS]

  apples frameworks are really able to go [TS]

  that way the reality that is just not it [TS]

  doesn't support that it does not [TS]

  apple is not that great and developers [TS]

  aren't that flexible to to be required [TS]

  to avoid this entire class of [TS]

  functionality and possible bug [TS]

  avoidances and bug fixes that that [TS]

  simple things like subclass overrides [TS]

  can provide yeah you know it's really [TS]

  hard [TS]

  let me start by just quickly [TS]

  establishing the c-sharp unsurprisingly [TS]

  takes the same approach to this is javas [TS]

  except where you say final i would say [TS]

  sealed so III know it's seriously [TS]

  totally different languages where yeah [TS]

  right exactly that's why it is a java [TS]

  club no not at all [TS]

  so yeah so it's sealed classes to me not [TS]

  final but that everything else is [TS]

  exactly the same and they are not sealed [TS]

  by default and in fact it is striking [TS]

  even within Microsoft frameworks to see [TS]

  something that sealed [TS]

  that's very peculiar that being said I [TS]

  think I think the problem is that man [TS]

  and John you alluded to this earlier so [TS]

  much [TS]

  objective-c seems to be about [TS]

  subclassing and up over time even from [TS]

  my perspective of someone who doesn't [TS]

  live in it seems like that starting to [TS]

  go away between blocks between should [TS]

  something else until my tongue anyway [TS]

  it's going away but a lot of legacy [TS]

  objective-c seems to be about [TS]

  subclassing and subclassing when the [TS]

  author of that class hasn't deliberately [TS]

  decided for that to be subclass is [TS]

  inherently dangerous and so much of [TS]

  Swift seems to be about at least in [TS]

  comparison to objective-c about [TS]

  preventing danger about having stronger [TS]

  typing about doing more compile time to [TS]

  check and make sure you're not doing [TS]

  something stupid so much about Swift [TS]

  seems to be about preventing danger and [TS]

  about being safer and having [TS]

  carte-blanche access with a few [TS]

  exceptions to subclass anything is [TS]

  inherently dangerous and so it seems to [TS]

  me that the academic answer is [TS]

  unequivocally that classes should be [TS]

  final by default that being said one of [TS]

  the things I've struggled with lately [TS]

  and co-worker of mine that we we've [TS]

  worked together on a couple projects [TS]

  lately it's been a really interesting [TS]

  experience because he is extremely [TS]

  academic or at least that's the way I [TS]

  think of him he really likes to do [TS]

  things by the book and he really likes [TS]

  to do things the rightist way possible [TS]

  by comparison of course i like to do [TS]

  that too but by comparison I feel like [TS]

  I'm considerably more pragmatic or [TS]

  perhaps loosey-goosey is maybe how he [TS]

  would describe it i would say pragmatic [TS]

  and I come down I think in the same way [TS]

  that Marco does that [TS]

  yes academically everything should be [TS]

  final by default but realistically I [TS]

  don't see how that's really possible and [TS]

  what I think looking at it from my point [TS]

  of view what's what's difficult about [TS]

  this is Apple has a tendency to kind of [TS]

  assume they know better than everyone [TS]

  and so even if we had classes final by [TS]

  default [TS]

  I think it's pretty clear that Apple [TS]

  wouldn't allow classes to be extended in [TS]

  subclassed very often because they tend [TS]

  to assume we know better than you you [TS]

  shouldn't touch this and well in [TS]

  principle that should be true that Apple [TS]

  should know better than us in reality [TS]

  there's so many just minor bugs and [TS]

  issues and in things that that [TS]

  developers need to do in order to get [TS]

  around small problems that I don't think [TS]

  that's reality and so in the end the [TS]

  academic in me says yes it should be [TS]

  final by default but I i come down with [TS]

  Marco that this seems to be a little too [TS]

  broad and a little too aggressive a [TS]

  change to be to be right [TS]

  is there an objective-c like at keyword [TS]

  or something for doing the equivalent of [TS]

  final are sealed [TS]

  I don't think it's possible so my take [TS]

  on this so far from looking at this [TS]

  thread and thinking about it a lot is [TS]

  that Swift seems to be like Casey point [TS]

  out like that the whole thing with Swift [TS]

  is it's trying to be trying to be less [TS]

  open let's open to interpretation less [TS]

  open to possibilities than objective c [TS]

  in terms of world is variable [TS]

  initialized when will be initialized can [TS]

  I do what can I guarantee about these [TS]

  things do I at one point do I have a [TS]

  half initialize object floating around [TS]

  somewhere in my thing like all you know [TS]

  can I be sure that this method i'm [TS]

  calling is going to exist in this thing [TS]

  how sure can i be sure I want to be some [TS]

  of that is for performance some of us [TS]

  for safety suffice for both but that is [TS]

  definitely the the direction Swift is [TS]

  going it's trying to have its cake and [TS]

  eat it too is like how we do things that [TS]

  are safer and we do things that are [TS]

  faster and we can do it with you know [TS]

  with with less typing and less code must [TS]

  cover be fewer bugs and so you know more [TS]

  power more safety more speed [TS]

  everything's good right but less [TS]

  flexibility is kind of floating around [TS]

  in there rattling around alright more [TS]

  power more safety more speed is it as [TS]

  flexible as it used to be well how do [TS]

  you define flexibility and app kit and [TS]

  the objective-c AP is have really really [TS]

  have been built around the ideas of [TS]

  subclassing so much so that it seems [TS]

  like this is the expectation if not of [TS]

  the framework offers then at least of [TS]

  the application developers that [TS]

  if you have some kind of problem uh [TS]

  maybe you can solve with the subclass [TS]

  right maybe maybe that class has [TS]

  everything you need but you need to add [TS]

  a little extra functionality so subclass [TS]

  it and categories are like some class [TS]

  too much trouble because it million [TS]

  other places inside the framework that [TS]

  use any string and throw category and a [TS]

  string now all your strength of about [TS]

  thirty method yay like a very sort of [TS]

  open to like this is this is a giant [TS]

  world's toys and you can screw with that [TS]

  world wise and and swift rise to do [TS]

  something else which has extensions [TS]

  which are like categories like how you [TS]

  want to throw a method on on every [TS]

  string or number in your thing go ahead [TS]

  you want to make a new operator that [TS]

  works on all integers you can do that [TS]

  like ya go nuts but it tries to do it in [TS]

  a safer way so given that safety is such [TS]

  a concern of the language huh [TS]

  I think it's natural it fits the Swift [TS]

  language to say final by default and [TS]

  furthermore i think that the technique [TS]

  of building user interface libraries [TS]

  where everything is assumed to be [TS]

  subclassed able by everybody leads to a [TS]

  substantial amount of the sadness that [TS]

  we good resuscitates the weird [TS]

  subclassing and eventually in rare cases [TS]

  this whistling to happen because not [TS]

  because like the the application [TS]

  developers are bad but because the [TS]

  people making the framework aren't [TS]

  giving like when they're writing you [TS]

  know all these classes that make up the [TS]

  frameworks that people use their not [TS]

  thinking about designing for subclass [TS]

  ability versus not there there and [TS]

  whatever mindset there and it's like [TS]

  someone could subclass me so i should [TS]

  make this class of classical but they're [TS]

  also probably thinking what was going to [TS]

  subclass this one or they're thinking [TS]

  when I need to update this class [TS]

  boy I'm about the updated classic new [TS]

  major version of this OS what about [TS]

  people who subclass the old one by [TS]

  breaking their crap by changing and it's [TS]

  like well I can't no I can't really know [TS]

  what they did in their sunglasses like I [TS]

  had no real way of expressing the things [TS]

  that I didn't expect to vary versus the [TS]

  things that I did and if they over this [TS]

  method and and did some weird thing or [TS]

  there is something you know timing [TS]

  ordering thing or having to do with this [TS]

  that I don't know what the subclasses [TS]

  doing and that the thing I think that [TS]

  final default [TS]

  will force people do is especially [TS]

  framework brothers think more about [TS]

  which parts of this framework should be [TS]

  some classical like what what are the [TS]

  extension points what are the things can [TS]

  that can vary versus the things that can [TS]

  vary maybe they come to the same [TS]

  decision [TS]

  this is the thing about the final [TS]

  default maybe it turns out that the [TS]

  people who are writing uikit or whatever [TS]

  like the next swifty version you know is [TS]

  they're very core foundation Swift as [TS]

  they work their way up the stack maybe [TS]

  those people who are writing those [TS]

  families will come to the same [TS]

  conclusion that all the same classes [TS]

  that you can override in UI kit but [TS]

  you'd also be able to you override and [TS]

  some swifty equivalent of the same type [TS]

  of UI framework like they would they [TS]

  were did you wouldn't lose any [TS]

  flexibility at all but at least they [TS]

  will then forced to think about it i [TS]

  would imagine what they come up with is [TS]

  to to reduce the surface area of things [TS]

  that you can mess with to make it [TS]

  clearer what what classes you're [TS]

  expected to subclass and maybe the [TS]

  documented better like how you how [TS]

  you're expected to subclass like how [TS]

  does a well-behaved subclass of this [TS]

  thing you know is it possible to [TS]

  sunglasses in a way that makes the [TS]

  little break with the next step date of [TS]

  this thing or just making some classes [TS]

  not some classical all because you're [TS]

  not supposed to mess with that if you [TS]

  really need to mess with it you should [TS]

  instead extend it or use composition to [TS]

  make your object have one of these [TS]

  instead of be one of these and it just [TS]

  seems like a more natural fit to Swift [TS]

  roommate was I think long-term forcing [TS]

  everybody involved in by changing the [TS]

  default forcing everybody involved to [TS]

  think more about subclassing instead of [TS]

  it just being the default like well of [TS]

  course I get some glasses everything [TS]

  it's like it's my wrist it's like you [TS]

  know it's my right it's like the First [TS]

  Amendment freedom of speech and freedom [TS]

  to subclass thinking more about it will [TS]

  will cause everybody involved both the [TS]

  framework colors and the programmers to [TS]

  try to to try to reduce the sort of the [TS]

  ante pattern that we see in the existing [TS]

  frameworks where everything is up for [TS]

  grabs and anytime something updates [TS]

  nobody is really sure about what they're [TS]

  breaking because they have no idea what [TS]

  people subclass inhale so I understand [TS]

  all of that but the problem I come down [TS]

  on is I don't think Apple would be a [TS]

  good citizen of this mindset and this is [TS]

  whatever and this is what i was saying [TS]

  earlier that apple would assume no all [TS]

  of our stuff is flawless [TS]

  we don't want you to subclass this [TS]

  there's no reasonable reason for you to [TS]

  ever have to subclass this so we're not [TS]

  going to allow you to and I don't think [TS]

  that they would be pragmatic enough to [TS]

  realize well we don't see any particular [TS]

  reason that anyone would need to [TS]

  subclass this class but you never know [TS]

  and you shouldn't hurt anything if you [TS]

  do so will just allow you to what what [TS]

  is the opposite of final key word in [TS]

  Swift you know I whatever it may be you [TS]

  know so well market is not final and [TS]

  know so well market is not final and [TS]

  it and I just don't think they'll be a [TS]

  good citizen of this environment I think [TS]

  other framework authors might because [TS]

  they seem to be less aggressive for lack [TS]

  of a better word but i don't i just [TS]

  don't think apple will be good citizens [TS]

  of that environment [TS]

  no I mean modern apple is pretty is [TS]

  restricted by default and in many ways [TS]

  towards developers and in most ways that [TS]

  has worked out well for them and so that [TS]

  that pattern of being restricted by [TS]

  default is it something that is so [TS]

  ingrained in them that I don't think [TS]

  they're going to revert course in that I [TS]

  mean objective-c is only as flexible [TS]

  loosey-goosey as it is because its [TS]

  ancient and it came from a time and a [TS]

  cult and a culture and a company that [TS]

  was very different from today's apple [TS]

  and where their dynamism was was the [TS]

  goal and and was considered very [TS]

  advanced for the time now modern Apple [TS]

  does things like this we're like you [TS]

  know Swift will be all locked down and [TS]

  and rigid and and strict and final by [TS]

  default that like I see them doing this [TS]

  mostly because it just fits in with with [TS]

  the way they see the things they see now [TS]

  is being correct and in many ways these [TS]

  things go in weight and programming you [TS]

  know like what we've programming is is [TS]

  not a young practice anymore it's been [TS]

  going on for decades things go in and [TS]

  out of fashion and you know and there [TS]

  are trends and there are fashions and [TS]

  there are you know fads and everything [TS]

  and open versus closed loose loose [TS]

  typing vs strict typing dynamic vs [TS]

  statically all these things go in a [TS]

  fashion at different times often just [TS]

  reacting to what was popular [TS]

  previously I think they just go in [TS]

  cycles and we're in a cycle now we're [TS]

  what is in fashion today is strictness [TS]

  and formalism and compile time check [TS]

  compile-time safety apple is right up [TS]

  there with everyone else with with Swift [TS]

  it in that regard and also in just the [TS]

  environment that apps running with being [TS]

  sit with you know iOS being locked down [TS]

  sandboxed everything [TS]

  Mac App Store being sandbox only if [TS]

  anybody's the mac app store whole [TS]

  separate discussion having technical [TS]

  blocks in front of calling private api [TS]

  is an app store apps things like that [TS]

  like this is the direction Apple is [TS]

  going and has been for quite some time [TS]

  so I i agree that this is not i wouldn't [TS]

  expect today's Apple too if given a [TS]

  choice to redesign something from [TS]

  scratch as they have with Swift to take [TS]

  the option to say you know what we're [TS]

  going to let people so class our stuff [TS]

  no they're looking for ways to lock it [TS]

  down and I think ultimately I i think [TS]

  what we've learned as a profession as [TS]

  programmers over the last few decades of [TS]

  having popularized oo programming i [TS]

  think what we've learned is that [TS]

  subclassing really is messy and has tons [TS]

  of anti-patterns and tons of potential [TS]

  for weird unforeseen bugs and problems [TS]

  and a lot of dysfunction that becomes [TS]

  possible without programming and of [TS]

  course the strip everything but I think [TS]

  as a working programmer III don't look [TS]

  around look around my friends and I see [TS]

  you know people who are all programmers [TS]

  who are kind of evaluating like people [TS]

  who are smartly print Simmons I can you [TS]

  know kind of evaluating like what how we [TS]

  should be doing is moving forward and [TS]

  subclassing in general is going out of [TS]

  fashion very quickly among programs not [TS]

  just not just among apple and Swift but [TS]

  among all programs i know subclassing is [TS]

  really out like it is it is going out it [TS]

  is possibly out now so you can look at [TS]

  Apple you can say as I have that I [TS]

  really don't see them choosing any [TS]

  differently on this if given the choice [TS]

  i think i see them going final by [TS]

  default [TS]

  just because it's apple and that's how [TS]

  they are these days but also I think [TS]

  there's enough support from programmers [TS]

  now for that you can't really say Apple [TS]

  is exclusively at fault ignoring what [TS]

  everyone's saying I think you can say [TS]

  you can make a good case for there being [TS]

  enough support the apples kind of making [TS]

  the right call for the whole community [TS]

  yeah that's the thing so to look at it [TS]

  from the flip side you know we don't [TS]

  know the sorts of things that Apple has [TS]

  to deal with you know we don't know the [TS]

  sorts of crazy ridiculous hack [TS]

  that third-party developers do that [TS]

  aren't as skilled as the Brent Simmons [TS]

  of the world you know the what makes a [TS]

  brand Simmons really good at what he [TS]

  does is that he knows when a hack is is [TS]

  the right answer and when it's not [TS]

  typically since it's being called a hack [TS]

  the answer is not often but we don't see [TS]

  the sorts of BS they have to put up with [TS]

  by the really shoddy developers that [TS]

  that aren't really thinking things [TS]

  through properly and so I think if i [TS]

  were an apple shoes it's easy to get [TS]

  lulled into trying to lock things down [TS]

  because you genuinely do feel like you [TS]

  know better and when you're looking at [TS]

  all these really disgusting hacks you do [TS]

  know better [TS]

  it's not just a feeling of knowing [TS]

  better you do know better but the [TS]

  problem is it's just it's the bazooka [TS]

  approach to something that that really [TS]

  you need a scalpel for and I mean I [TS]

  think what makes this discussion so [TS]

  fascinating what makes me enjoy [TS]

  engineering sorry dr. drank so much is [TS]

  that it's these sorts of difficult [TS]

  decisions that make our job so much fun [TS]

  you know 22 way these options and figure [TS]

  out what is the right answer but also I [TS]

  think you can you can look at like [TS]

  modern-day Apple as you know in be in [TS]

  the position of authority if you look at [TS]

  things like the appstore restrictions [TS]

  like private api restrictions like [TS]

  sandboxing on both platforms but [TS]

  especially in the mac i think if Apple [TS]

  presented with the option of do you let [TS]

  developers ship something that needs to [TS]

  ship and and this is like as you [TS]

  mentioned like this is you know you [TS]

  might be able to say well if you're if [TS]

  you're smart enough [TS]

  you're allowed to break the rules but [TS]

  that isn't first of all that isn't [TS]

  usually true and you still generally [TS]

  shouldn't because a it's still a bad [TS]

  idea and be you probably aren't smart [TS]

  enough but even even for people who are [TS]

  smart enough they still probably [TS]

  shouldn't be doing that because everyone [TS]

  is done at some point while programming [TS]

  and you know that the idiot who wrote [TS]

  that was probably just your past self [TS]

  but anyway if you look at like that the [TS]

  problems of shipping shipping things the [TS]

  problems of like you know in the real [TS]

  world especially like so much of the [TS]

  business these days as consultant and as [TS]

  you know like from being insulting [TS]

  shipping is often of utmost priority [TS]

  above things like doing things in [TS]

  exactly the best architectural way or [TS]

  best practices you know you just gotta [TS]

  ship stuff and and that's it but that [TS]

  isn't all that is an apples problem an [TS]

  apple doesn't necessarily play by those [TS]

  rules with the way it treats other [TS]

  developers if Apple's given the choice [TS]

  of letting developers ship more [TS]

  functional stuff more quickly at the [TS]

  expense of of security or restrictions [TS]

  or calling private api's apple doesn't [TS]

  choose to let them ship things apple [TS]

  says you know what that's not our [TS]

  problem we would rather have you not [TS]

  ship a product at all or ship a lesser [TS]

  product or ship a later product then [TS]

  break any of these rules and there's no [TS]

  better example of that than everything [TS]

  that's ever happened the mac app store [TS]

  like Apple would rather lose apps to [TS]

  that to the app stores and to their [TS]

  platforms they would rather lose apps [TS]

  completely or have apps be reduced [TS]

  functionality and lose features over [TS]

  time warden or never have certain [TS]

  features they would rather not allow [TS]

  those things or have a laugh fewer apps [TS]

  or have later or worse apps then have [TS]

  apps that are better in a more [TS]

  permissive environment sure everything I [TS]

  do in the mac app store is that much [TS]

  forethought that because a lot of [TS]

  unforeseen consequences unforeseen by [TS]

  Apple as well is that they have a goal [TS]

  in mind and realize there's be difficult [TS]

  to get from there from here so i think [TS]

  that's often side of a guy getting back [TS]

  to have something both you said earlier [TS]

  about what will apple do like that you [TS]

  know we can trust Apple this because [TS]

  they're going to lock everything down [TS]

  because that's the kind of company that [TS]

  they are i think it's appropriate for [TS]

  Apple to be more conservative because [TS]

  they're not just a company that writes a [TS]

  bunch of frameworks people use they are [TS]

  the platform they are the foundation [TS]

  there the thing upon which everybody [TS]

  else built they should be more [TS]

  conservative than you are with your own [TS]

  classes and stuff that's that's their [TS]

  role like so not that Swift is just made [TS]

  for them but in any language if there [TS]

  are tools to be conservative and to try [TS]

  to reduce the surface area tried [TS]

  reduce the public API try to reduce the [TS]

  number of things that other developers [TS]

  calling to like they do with like no [TS]

  stopping private api in their app stores [TS]

  and that's all part of the same process [TS]

  they should do that [TS]

  that's because they are there underneath [TS]

  everything else so they have a [TS]

  responsibility to be more solid and more [TS]

  resilient to people doing crazy things [TS]

  on top of them then the people who are [TS]

  building on top and your application [TS]

  code be all loosey-goosey all you want [TS]

  you can get away with that because the [TS]

  people building layers below you don't [TS]

  get to be a loosey goosey and travel [TS]

  sample does that and they follow through [TS]

  on what you think is their instinct to [TS]

  close stuff up which i'm not entirely [TS]

  sure that they would because again will [TS]

  be the same people who are advocating [TS]

  uikit during the thing and you like it [TS]

  isn't any more clothes than after they [TS]

  just change the change the vectors [TS]

  change the they knew which things would [TS]

  more be more likely to vary which is why [TS]

  you like it seems like so much nicer to [TS]

  deal with a nap because they learned out [TS]

  when people use this kind of thing [TS]

  mostly they want a very x y&z and so [TS]

  we'll build our glasses to make those [TS]

  things very well anyway if i was to [TS]

  close things off in the the new swift [TS]

  frameworks or whatever that would [TS]

  basically force people like developers [TS]

  like well I can't work around this [TS]

  anymore because I can't even subclasses [TS]

  thing over i do you think is your stupid [TS]

  framework is all closed off and I don't [TS]

  have your source code it's a binary [TS]

  framework so the only thing left for me [TS]

  is to file bugs and what that will mean [TS]

  is that many more developers are forced [TS]

  essentially to like they did they have [TS]

  no workaround they have to tell Apple [TS]

  hey I can't make my button now you know [TS]

  tent color and this button blue in this [TS]

  scenario because there's you know it [TS]

  because of the way the framework works i [TS]

  have no access to that little knob to [TS]

  turn and I can't subclass it and do that [TS]

  so please like you know but I'll file [TS]

  the bug and and I can't shut my app [TS]

  you're preventing your ship map is there [TS]

  is no workaround and apple in response [TS]

  to this has added pressure to consider [TS]

  these requests because they can't say oh [TS]

  yeah no that's a bug but for now just [TS]

  you can just work around about running [TS]

  this method like there is no workaround [TS]

  both parties no Jesus no workaround we [TS]

  didn't think about this this way that [TS]

  people use the frameworks that they [TS]

  can't get that they can change this [TS]

  thing that seems i'm only reasonable to [TS]

  change that's going to force Apple to [TS]

  reconsider maybe if we don't have [TS]

  this can we have can we provide a [TS]

  supportive way to do this and this much [TS]

  more motivation to provide a supportive [TS]

  way to do this if it's really common [TS]

  thing that tons of developers and there [TS]

  is literally no workaround is no [TS]

  workaround because of what Apple did the [TS]

  workaround is a no just open that class [TS]

  up the work you know this is the fixes [TS]

  but we don't want to just open the class [TS]

  up because we know what kind of problems [TS]

  that leads to it x everyone's hands in [TS]

  the future and makes it so than SOS the [TS]

  upgrade could break your app and stuff [TS]

  but if you really want to change this [TS]

  thing we should provide a supportive way [TS]

  to change it because there is no [TS]

  workaround so you would hope like what [TS]

  you're hoping like this is like all the [TS]

  best loss that you're hoping that [TS]

  motivates everyone involved to behave [TS]

  better like this is this is something [TS]

  pressing in on a system and you're [TS]

  hoping what it causes to happen is for [TS]

  the system to shape itself around this [TS]

  pressure in this this force to become a [TS]

  better thing than making everybody [TS]

  become better it's difficult to more [TS]

  people would be easier to just do [TS]

  whatever the hell they want but then you [TS]

  just have to both chaos right and in [TS]

  general that the larger issue of this [TS]

  whole thing about Swift and frameworks [TS]

  and apple the foundation and everything [TS]

  is no less code and increased safety is [TS]

  what you need when you want to create [TS]

  large complicated systems or systems [TS]

  keep getting better and keep getting [TS]

  more complicated and one of the biggest [TS]

  tools we have to fight against that is [TS]

  reduce the number of things that can go [TS]

  wrong reduce the number of things that [TS]

  you can do make more things deliberate [TS]

  unless things accidental thing [TS]

  yeah and and i think that's that's in [TS]

  the spirit of swift and it's just a [TS]

  spirit of the advancement of technology [TS]

  market talk about this going in cycles [TS]

  and dynamic vs static whatever I think [TS]

  all like that some of that stuff does go [TS]

  in cycles but increased safety is an [TS]

  arrow in one direction very very rarely [TS]

  do we see the world of writing programs [TS]

  for that territory verse and say we have [TS]

  this kind of safety where was impossible [TS]

  to scribble over memory but we'd like to [TS]

  add that in the next language that [TS]

  because it always goes towards more [TS]

  abstraction more safety and the safety [TS]

  can take different forms will be [TS]

  misguided about what you need to provide [TS]

  that safety or how do you know because [TS]

  small talk is pretty darn safe but it [TS]

  certainly looks nothing like Swift right [TS]

  so the move towards higher-level [TS]

  languages and increase safety [TS]

  however that may manifest that is an [TS]

  arrow that is essentially always going [TS]

  at one [TS]

  action and I think just the generations [TS]

  and getting there and the different [TS]

  paths towards that goal are separate and [TS]

  so is the dynamic vs taxes you can have [TS]

  an M again like small dog and eminently [TS]

  dynamic language that is very very safe [TS]

  you can also have an eminently static [TS]

  language that is also very very safe so [TS]

  the static and dynamic I i think does go [TS]

  in cycles not just based on fashion [TS]

  based on theory and everything like that [TS]

  but increase safety everybody always [TS]

  wants that and that's the direction I [TS]

  think so what is going so I I don't know [TS]

  this i forget who proposed decided it [TS]

  might have been a third-party proposal [TS]

  or whatever but bottom line for me is I [TS]

  think that since this doesn't change [TS]

  capabilities [TS]

  all it does is make everyone involved [TS]

  think about things differently and [TS]

  because the default will be different [TS]

  than objective-c i hope we'll call it [TS]

  cause everyone involved to to think [TS]

  differently than they used to think [TS]

  about it and that apple will know more [TS]

  things down and it will cause more [TS]

  ingenious for developers and apples will [TS]

  send feedback and an apple developers [TS]

  will some feedback the apple an apple [TS]

  will be forced to think about the [TS]

  feedback and provide a way to do it [TS]

  because they're reasonable request in [TS]

  there is literally no workaround and the [TS]

  end result should be for users programs [TS]

  that have fewer bugs third-party [TS]

  applications to break less frequently [TS]

  with OS upgrades and just generally more [TS]

  solid stable code for everyone going [TS]

  forward our final sponsor this week is [TS]

  warby parker go to warby parker calm / [TS]

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  again that's warby parker calm / ATP [TS]

  thanks a lot to warby parker for [TS]

  sponsoring our show so John what does [TS]

  the open-source Swift mean for the [TS]

  future of go and rust know just thought [TS]

  it was interesting questions so there's [TS]

  a lot of languages out there that are [TS]

  very similar in spirit and you know [TS]

  visually even are already on the ideas [TS]

  behind them make a language that is [TS]

  kinda like see but without the nasty [TS]

  pointer stuff that is fast like those [TS]

  compiled languages but that has lots of [TS]

  more safety guarantees where the [TS]

  compiler can figure out all sorts of [TS]

  stuff for you so you don't have to do [TS]

  manual memory management but you get the [TS]

  speed of a language like C or C++ so go [TS]

  rusty Swift all kind of fall into that [TS]

  family they're all relatively new [TS]

  open-source Swift as we saw from that [TS]

  the project the open and the crazy [TS]

  activity and Swift evolution mailing [TS]

  list and just the sheer number of iOS [TS]

  developers who this is this language is [TS]

  potentially for and that the just yet [TS]

  even just a journal assignment at WC [TS]

  when Swift was announced in the first [TS]

  place that so it's pretty popular just [TS]

  big [TS]

  because because it belongs to apple like [TS]

  if you had just been a project you know [TS]

  off to the side by some random person we [TS]

  wouldn't be having the shows about it [TS]

  but it's because it's coming from apple [TS]

  that it's very popular goes from google [TS]

  another big company they use internally [TS]

  that is a tractor to pull on go being [TS]

  very popular also made by some of the [TS]

  folks that made see so that has some you [TS]

  know celebrity cachet behind it rust i [TS]

  think is from Muslim focus primarily I [TS]

  don't know the full backstory and rust [TS]

  but it's so if you have to compare the [TS]

  sizes of these communities you would [TS]

  think that like Apple and Swift is the [TS]

  most powerful not because they're bigger [TS]

  or more important company Google but [TS]

  merely because google uses all sorts of [TS]

  languages google uses a lot of java [TS]

  google uses python google uses go so [TS]

  it's not as if there's like this one [TS]

  google language and if there was to go [TS]

  probably wouldn't be it but with apple [TS]

  apple with has been for a long time now [TS]

  objective-c is there one language and [TS]

  their you moving over to Swift this kind [TS]

  of speak with one voice all the the [TS]

  Applewood is behind that one arrow right [TS]

  google have to come in second with go [TS]

  and like a google does have lots of [TS]

  different languages and has always been [TS]

  kind of like encouraging of using lots [TS]

  of different and they have dark their [TS]

  own language and also something lots of [TS]

  languages are mixing around there but [TS]

  google is a big company and they write a [TS]

  lot of stuff and go is fairly important [TS]

  language and then finally google has [TS]

  more languages than I have mac pros like [TS]

  that's the they just make a new language [TS]

  like every six months you never know [TS]

  where it goes [TS]

  so it doesn't this doesn't look around [TS]

  and then rest i think is even smaller [TS]

  because like well-muscled they make a [TS]

  web browser and a bunch of other stuff [TS]

  and they're important but Andres is [TS]

  really interesting and it's not like you [TS]

  have to use all these languages the [TS]

  general-purpose language that you could [TS]

  use for anything but they all have [TS]

  communities around them they're all [TS]

  fairly open and you could in theory [TS]

  right anything you want to go Marco even [TS]

  wrote a thing for our guests and go and [TS]

  rescue could use to read any time and [TS]

  same thing with Swift right but splits [TS]

  coming on the scene and being someone to [TS]

  the two languages and having the full [TS]

  weight of Apple behind it could [TS]

  potentially do one of two things either [TS]

  it could suck people away from those [TS]

  things they can say well i was [TS]

  interested in go and rest but Swift [TS]

  seems very similar and just seems to be [TS]

  like more popular [TS]

  as a better ide and I keep hearing about [TS]

  it and whatever or I like it better [TS]

  something like that just because apples [TS]

  behind it or gonna have the opposite [TS]

  effect where it's like I wasn't going to [TS]

  consider one of these alternate [TS]

  languages but now the Swift is that it [TS]

  seems like all bets are off on what used [TS]

  to seem safe [TS]

  C C++ or C sharp or Java that's all then [TS]

  boston now it's time for me to try it [TS]

  also it's a new languages so maybe go [TS]

  and rest receive a huge influx of [TS]

  activity and pull requests and people [TS]

  contributing to their communities as [TS]

  well as well check back in the year and [TS]

  see you know I don't know you'd measures [TS]

  may be like go to github or whatever and [TS]

  see like what happened to the go and [TS]

  rest communities in you know is there [TS]

  anyway we can measure that was the [TS]

  effect of Swift to cause those [TS]

  communities to swell and importance in [TS]

  those languages to mature and become [TS]

  more popular or was the effect to sort [TS]

  of pull people away from those two [TS]

  communities and have them sort of with [TS]

  her more now that the the giant Sun that [TS]

  is Swift is shining down from WWDC every [TS]

  year [TS]

  alright alright thanks a lot 43 sponsors [TS]

  this week [TS] igloo and warby parker and [TS]

  we will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  death was accidental [TS]

  John research Marco and Casey would let [TS]

  him because it was accidental was [TS]

  accidental [TS]

  you can find show know today [TS]

  DP die and if twitter follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment our CC Syracuse [TS]

  name itself this about Casey put in [TS]

  there rip webobjects i think i might [TS]

  have rip you mean r.i.p yes as in what [TS]

  does this mean for what objects [TS]

  yeah I don't know products is a mystery [TS]

  to me a mystery to everyone [TS]

  I mean I don't know anything about [TS]

  webobjects but I do know that it is it [TS]

  is blamed for a lot of the the [TS]

  shortcomings of apples web services and [TS]

  I i would guess it's probably not all [TS]

  about what my doctor i'm guessing that [TS]

  it's much more about like the entire [TS]

  rest of the stack and that's that is [TS]

  probably a small part of the problem if [TS]

  it's even still part of the problem at [TS]

  all [TS]

  it is probably connected to it but just [TS]

  like the consequences what does it mean [TS]

  what what are the consequences that spin [TS]

  out from the fact that using objects [TS]

  well then we have to return this plug [TS]

  well we have to run this OS and well the [TS]

  way with allergy applications are gonna [TS]

  have to factor in this way you can [TS]

  really split this up from that and you [TS]

  can't this isn't horizontally scalable [TS]

  and these are these are tightly coupled [TS]

  instead of loosely coupled we can [TS]

  replace this with the better version of [TS]

  this component you know those [TS]

  consequences that ripple outwards from [TS]

  robotics what object itself i would [TS]

  think it's not a big deal but I don't [TS]

  know I i just wonder with the technology [TS]

  like that just seems to be like the only [TS]

  person left in the world using it as [TS]

  Apple which is fine but at a certain [TS]

  point like every company even if your [TS]

  google has to be like it's going to be a [TS]

  thing we do it is we should probably [TS]

  make it open and try to get other people [TS]

  to use it was just us using it will kind [TS]

  of do a crappy job like it's better to [TS]

  get everybody else on board like they're [TS]

  doing [TS]

  swiftor go or resting and then to try to [TS]

  say we just use internally we we can [TS]

  support our own weird web framework and [TS]

  definitely can't we [TS]

  maybe not what else going on [TS]

  you wanna talk about the Chevy bolt [TS]

  that's antiques get in the chat the what [TS]

  is that though the smaller vault [TS]

  yeah its battery only it claimed up to [TS]

  do up to 200 mile range could be [TS]

  substantial thirty thousand dollars it's [TS]

  not attractive looks like the i3 yeah I [TS]

  i saw a 93 in person again in the day [TS]

  and it's one of those things like [TS]

  whenever a new model of a new like crazy [TS]

  design comes out at first it seems like [TS]

  wacky and crazy and ugly and then over [TS]

  time you can get you soon as you see the [TS]

  morning [TS]

  more and it gets you know less new the [TS]

  i3 has not followed that progression for [TS]

  me to be high three every time I see it [TS]

  is worse than the last time I said but [TS]

  it's so bad why didn't i didn't read [TS]

  anything about this [TS]

  I've thought about it in the past like [TS]

  I'm not in the market for a car but wait [TS]

  aren't you know kind of for Aaron well [TS]

  for Aaron yeah but not for me but I've [TS]

  been thinking and this would not be [TS]

  forever and it would be for me i rarely [TS]

  drive more than a hundred miles in a [TS]

  week maybe like my commute up until i [TS]

  went and did staff fog which is markers [TS]

  favorite thing my commute was like five [TS]

  minutes and so I would drive maybe 10 [TS]

  miles in a day maybe you take a [TS]

  hoverboard to work [TS]

  yeah pretty much which by the way i just [TS]

  realized tonight that the hoverboards [TS]

  everyone we're talking about is like a [TS]

  segway without the handlebars I'd I had [TS]

  no idea what everyone was talking about [TS]

  and basically yeah it's a lot simpler [TS]

  and less sophisticated but that's [TS]

  basically it [TS]

  yeah I didn't realize that was a thing [TS]

  but anyway um I there's no reason for me [TS]

  not to have an electric car because I [TS]

  Drive very little it would absolutely [TS]

  charge itself overnight [TS]

  there's no reason for me not to have one [TS]

  except that every single electric car [TS]

  I've ever seen other than the Tesla is [TS]

  either hideous slow or both and I'm just [TS]

  not into that [TS]

  so good at Tesla I need to find I need [TS]

  to work like three jobs so respond to [TS]

  this week by former you exactly need [TS]

  three more jobs or you guys need to not [TS]

  take sponsorship money for the next like [TS]

  six months and then maybe we can think [TS]

  about it I don't know but uh this is [TS]

  interesting i guess the boat looks like [TS]

  a American press is what it looks like [TS]

  yeah kinda like it's small it's a small [TS]

  populace car is not like the model s [TS]

  where it's trying to be like a [TS]

  full-sized regular shape car that also [TS]

  happens to be electric the sum was [TS]

  another 1i forgot the name of the [TS]

  company was some kind of basically [TS]

  taking Tesla's and putting a different [TS]

  body on oh yeah I'm for the Faraday or [TS]

  something [TS]

  is that what that was about yeah that is [TS]

  it's like the Tesla like the little [TS]

  the thing you see in the test the store [TS]

  in the mall just like the battery and [TS]

  the drivetrain and the wheels and they [TS]

  build a different car on top of it so [TS]

  presumably more money and it seems silly [TS]

  again it was a it was like the FF 0 or [TS]

  something like that which which made me [TS]

  happy because it's a play on the FC 0 [TS]

  super nintendo game which I love if it [TS]

  was they would be sued [TS]

  speaking of which how about that that [TS]

  Apple watch clone from the Swiss [TS]

  mechanical watchmaker I did you see the [TS]

  black no no neighs loop i see i saw in [TS]

  the monomer site that looks interesting [TS]

  but I mean it [TS]

  there's no reason why Apple couldn't do [TS]

  that like off the top of my head unless [TS]

  there's some kind of manufacturing [TS]

  challenge but tell you what the [TS]

  so right now you stole my mechanical [TS]

  watch thing but the the the black the [TS]

  space black link bracelet that I got I [TS]

  don't know six months ago now for my [TS]

  Apple watch that that black dlc coding [TS]

  is the real deal like it is still [TS]

  flawless and any kind of stainless steel [TS]

  band or the same steel watch itself get [TS]

  scratched to hell in like a second the [TS]

  black the space black with the dlc on it [TS]

  is just literally like it mine has no [TS]

  scratches on it at all like it is it [TS]

  like it is crazy how good that coding is [TS]

  so I I welcome Apple adding more options [TS]

  that have dlc because that is it's just [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  it is so good this mechanical Apple [TS]

  watches is not good i don't understand [TS]

  what their yeah i just looked at the [TS]

  moment you started talking it that's why [TS]

  why why Apple had to make it like that [TS]

  you don't it went to me like this it's [TS]

  like it the world of mechanical watches [TS]

  if you if you look at mechanical watches [TS]

  and the appeal they have and and you [TS]

  look at the complaints that that [TS]

  mechanical watch people have about the [TS]

  Apple watch one of the big complaint is [TS]

  that the Apple watchers isn't that [TS]

  attractive watch so why would you make [TS]

  one that looks just like it like it [TS]

  seems [TS]

  first of all apples gonna sue the crap [TS]

  out of you and make this stop [TS]

  immediately [TS]

  second of all what like why third of all [TS]

  they only selling it in gold [TS]

  so it's like 25 grand [TS]

  I didn't make enough money to pay for a [TS]

  lawyer who's gonna buy that like who's [TS]

  gonna who's gonna spend 25 grand on that [TS]

  yeah I don't know it just seems silly [TS]

  but I mean you like it's like these [TS]

  watchmakers like what what's what's [TS]

  going on what's exciting in the watch [TS]

  world this entire year we heard about [TS]

  this tuple Apple watch how can we get in [TS]

  on that excitement something how about [TS]

  we make you like it we can make a [TS]

  SmartWatch like we don't know how to do [TS]

  that how to make a regular water's make [TS]

  it look like the Apple watch right yeah [TS]

  similar like the tag heuer I don't know [TS]

  how to pronounce i'm suing its tag or [TS]

  toddler they're smart watch that they [TS]

  released a few months ago [TS]

  it's like the it looks just like a [TS]

  regular like you know round mechanical [TS]

  watch face but it is just a black screen [TS]

  like the Apple watch most of the time it [TS]

  seems like and then like you know it [TS]

  turns on and it has a face that looks [TS]

  like a tag heuer watch you know but like [TS]

  to me again like that kind of ruins the [TS]

  point if you're gonna have a watch with [TS]

  a screen black all the time and then [TS]

  eventually look at it and glanced at it [TS]

  and there's like a computer you have to [TS]

  manage then I think the apple watch is [TS]

  the one to get because if you want a [TS]

  computer watch that seems like it's [TS]

  probably the best computer watch [TS]

  right like I I don't get it like now [TS]

  that I've seen this world just a little [TS]

  bit [TS]

  I totally see the value of a good [TS]

  mechanical watch and I totally see the [TS]

  value of a computer watch and I don't [TS]

  think those things should be crossed i [TS]

  think crossing them destroys the value [TS]

  of both really this is gonna get now you [TS]

  must also watch people [TS]

  well we've already gotten by even I've [TS]

  gotten a lot of stuff from the watch [TS]

  people you know I've been thinking in [TS]

  the watch world and speaking like [TS]

  smartwatches a mechanic watching [TS]

  everything I've been impressed so far [TS]

  anyway [TS]

  still other wait another year but [TS]

  impressed with how Fitbit has reacted to [TS]

  the challenge of the Apple watch [TS]

  reacting by basically making newer and [TS]

  more capable series of things that are [TS]

  mostly featureless bands with very [TS]

  simple screens incorporated into them in [TS]

  subtle ways i saw a picture of the press [TS]

  been wearing a lot of people have the [TS]

  newer fits like they found kind of in [TS]

  the same way that the pebble didn't her [TS]

  maybe you know people had some good [TS]

  ideas to be like trying to find like how [TS]

  am i different than the apple watch but [TS]

  still a valuable product like what is [TS]

  the road that is still available to me [TS]

  to go forward and fit seems to it be [TS]

  I mean who knows there could be like to [TS]

  flip remember the flip camera back in [TS]

  those years before before the iphone [TS]

  shot video [TS]

  oh yeah the flip camera had a Grilli [TS]

  great business for like three years [TS]

  yeah right and so it is still remains to [TS]

  be seen if it will find a way like out [TS]

  of the woods but so far like their [TS]

  reaction to the post Apple watch time [TS]

  has been pretty good [TS]

  no they found it its it's the Fitbit [TS]

  blaze is a real thing yeah look at it [TS]

  that's that's how they're getting away [TS]

  from the Apple watch that's the thing [TS]

  was like an Apple watch with the [TS]

  quarters punched out and that's not the [TS]

  way i would say you would go towards [TS]

  about talking about the the other food [TS]

  products the white things activity steal [TS]

  this i think it is a more [TS]

  this is like a better competitor at [TS]

  least I haven't seen one in real life [TS]

  but on their website looks really nice [TS]

  like this is the kind of thing like i [TS]

  can see buying that valuing that rather [TS]

  than Apple watch before i could see like [TS]

  you know that the the big Fitbit corner [TS]

  cut off a watch [TS]

  it's a smart approaches it's like it's [TS]

  mostly a mechanical watch basically are [TS]

  many units of course probably know it's [TS]

  like it's mostly a regular watch with [TS]

  some very slight like activity tracking [TS]

  and sleep alarm kind of things so like [TS]

  it still has all the battery advantages [TS]

  of our regular watch its low-cost it's [TS]

  only with under two hundred bucks and [TS]

  you know long batter is it can be more [TS]

  attractive [TS]

  yeah it means to I think it from these [TS]

  pictures it looks pretty attractive who [TS]

  knows again who knows like in real life [TS]

  but but it looks pretty decent you know [TS]

  under 200 bucks activity tracking [TS]

  built-ins like that seems like that's a [TS]

  better kind of approach to to addressed [TS]

  to try to compete with the Apple watch [TS]

  rather than to be a full-featured [TS]

  computer platform because you're not [TS]

  going to do that if you're why things or [TS]

  Fitbit you're just you're not going to [TS]

  compete on that front and the blade [TS]

  looks more like a fitness like it's only [TS]

  focused on fitness gps type thing but i [TS]

  was thinking of the charge and the [TS]

  charge HR and even the Flex like the [TS]

  evolution of the Flex into increasingly [TS]

  large rubbery bands with a tiny little [TS]

  screen that that appeals to people for [TS]

  athletics like it's for activity and [TS]

  athletics just so focused on fitness [TS]

  fits right in the name like use clips i [TS]

  guess they do have a clear but like [TS]

  Fitbit like we're not going to be a [TS]

  general-purpose platform for smart [TS]

  watching everything we do is gonna be [TS]

  about fitness and so you can make this [TS]

  whole line of products with a similar [TS]

  value proposition of we track the stuff [TS]

  that you're doing your heart rate and [TS]

  your activity and we connect your [TS]

  smartphone with a nap and all that stuff [TS]

  but there's no real brains in our thing [TS]

  is just an accelerometer and a tiny [TS]

  simple screen and some magic invisible [TS]

  bluetooth that just you know make organ [TS]

  even the blaze thing looks like you know [TS]

  I like those garmin gps things like a [TS]

  really fancy version of a thing you wear [TS]

  when your exercise I do not buy the ones [TS]

  you like the woman in like with jewelry [TS]

  with her fancy purse i just do not buy [TS]

  that scenario at all for this thing [TS]

  because it is huge and I absolutely [TS]

  don't buy it as anything of boy looks [TS]

  bad [TS]

  no one really cares like that they're [TS]

  like it's a boner man going on a date [TS]

  and bring a suit and it's like he's [TS]

  wearing a suit with this watch like yeah [TS]

  I didn't know this existed might have to [TS]

  take back some of my my credit but the [TS]

  other things i see them around a lot i [TS]

  see them around a lot of regular people [TS]

  and they so clearly have is so cheap [TS]

  compared to the apple watch and they're [TS]

  so like not disposable but like they're [TS]

  made of plastic and their rugged and [TS]

  they're there they have such a clear [TS]

  purpose and they're simple and you want [TS]

  don't have to worry about like rebooting [TS]

  them are updating the OS or getting apps [TS]

  for them all you know they just know [TS]

  again remember the flip camera will come [TS]

  back to this in a year and see how see [TS]

  how this all shaken out [TS]

  yeah i mean i really i really do think [TS]

  there's going to be a healthy market for [TS]

  inexpensive more focused smart watches [TS]

  that are not full-fledged at platforms [TS]

  and because you could argue looking at [TS]

  the apple watch how like the Apple watch [TS]

  really isn't a great a platform either [TS]

  it tries to be and maybe it will be in [TS]

  the future but at the moment it isn't [TS]

  and that the and what people tend to [TS]

  like most about the Apple watch is the [TS]

  stuff that [TS]

  a two-hundred-dollar less capable watch [TS]

  with a longer battery life probably [TS]

  could do most of you know ya like it [TS]

  like this with things are wild things [TS]

  thing like it was the old as the price [TS]

  of compute drops to zero eventually [TS]

  smart cuts go into everything just [TS]

  because it's so friggin Shakespearean [TS]

  like that it's why would you have is a [TS]

  regular quartz watch without some very [TS]

  basic accelerometer step tracking [TS]

  computer smarts and wireless [TS]

  connectivity because eventually that the [TS]

  thing that does all that in one tiny [TS]

  system in the chip five years from now [TS]

  it's like that costs less than the the [TS]

  little metal bar that we used to connect [TS]

  the straps like just put it in its free [TS]

  and so everything has some amount of [TS]

  smarts in an apple is making the [TS]

  high-end one where they're always [TS]

  pushing the envelope like what kinda [TS]

  crazy computing stuff can we put in here [TS]

  but it's like you know like the Internet [TS]

  of Things eventually it's just like [TS]

  we're going to a smart chip and [TS]

  everything and we think that will make [TS]

  it better and probably one in the [TS]

  beginning but it just become so cheap [TS]

  that you just do it because you can you [TS]

  just try to like find a use for it and [TS]

  eventually hopefully we'll find in the [TS]

  same way that electricity camera and [TS]

  everything you're like everything didn't [TS]

  have electricity all I need electricity [TS]

  for a lightbulb who what about [TS]

  electricity in a thing and heat see your [TS]

  house and electricity for that you [TS]

  shovel colon what about electricity and [TS]

  the thing that cooks your food well you [TS]

  just put wood in the stove what about [TS]

  you know toasting your bread i just put [TS]

  it up and white is unless you need to be [TS]

  in everything is just gonna make [TS]

  everything worse and in the beginning it [TS]

  did but eventually everything's got free [TS]

  electricity so that's gonna be the same [TS]

  with with cpus not everything cpus now [TS]

  but it is inevitable [TS]

  they will the same way they all get [TS]

  electricity because and we'll have to [TS]

  endure the stupid years [TS]

  we're adding it makes everything worse [TS]

  you know i i'm i'm absolutely sure that [TS]

  the first electric stoves were hated by [TS]

  everybody who is used to the [TS]

  quote-unquote real stoves that didn't [TS]

  have electricity but eventually worked [TS]

  out even even today some people still [TS]

  have giant gas stoves but no computers [TS]

  coming watch out [TS]

  yeah I don't know by as I said last time [TS]

  and then a time I've been spent some [TS]

  time where mechanical watch it is really [TS]

  nice to have something that does not [TS]

  need to be charged or have software [TS]

  updates click it's so nice because [TS]

  everything else in my [TS]

  life now has to be charged and require [TS]

  software updates and and by the way [TS]

  works you know [TS]

  ninety-seven percent of the time but not [TS]

  that last three percent and even the [TS]

  crappy mechanical ones I don't talk [TS]

  about the computer comes everywhere it [TS]

  will be so small that you won't need to [TS]

  charge it all the time i get probably [TS]

  charge of stuff from the motion of your [TS]

  wrist or something and you won't need to [TS]

  update the software because it will do [TS]

  so few things and it will be a stick set [TS]

  of functionality but there will still be [TS]

  a cpu like in the same way that have [TS]

  these vacuums are testing probably have [TS]

  some microprocessor somewhere inside you [TS]

  never need to update your never gonna [TS]

  update it just does what it's going to [TS]

  do you don't even know it's there you [TS]

  have to think about charging as you plug [TS]

  it in but it's in there in the same way [TS]

  all of our cars have a design computers [TS]

  and now for the most part we're not [TS]

  running soft well Marco is now but most [TS]

  of us and our heads home for updates on [TS]

  our computer on our cars but they're [TS]

  just they're filled with cpus so that's [TS]

  the progression need if you're still [TS]

  thinking about it and having to charge [TS]

  and software update that's clearly like [TS]

  on the on the leading edge of adding [TS]

  computers to things when we stopped even [TS]

  knowing this computer in it that's the [TS]

  trailing edge of adding computers things [TS]

  like cutting off cars on the trailing [TS]

  edge his cars have this all of the [TS]

  revolution of having their interiors [TS]

  become a computerized but the engines [TS]

  have long since been computerized that [TS]

  ship has kind of sailed on our computer [TS]

  I smell rest of the card I think of [TS]

  another example something in our house [TS]

  maybe washing maybe dishwasher or [TS]

  washing machines they used to just be [TS]

  like circuit boards with a bunch of six [TS]

  circuits and stuff but eventually they [TS]

  just all got cpus and we don't think [TS]

  about it you don't update them and you [TS]

  know how to charge them then it's not a [TS]

  hassle and they don't crash because what [TS]

  they do is so stupid and so simple and [TS]

  you know for the most part and maybe [TS]

  I'll come with a better example [TS]

  yes that's fine like like the stuff [TS]

  that's basically like you know a sealed [TS]

  box where like you can't get a firmware [TS]

  update for your dishwasher like I'm sure [TS]

  it's possible for server people do it [TS]

  but like that isn't something to [TS]

  consumers are expected to ever do or [TS]

  even able to do because what they do is [TS]

  so simple and basic like you hoped there [TS]

  would be no need for such a thing but [TS]

  where were the danger of being annoying [TS]

  and reliable comes in as you have [TS]

  something as complicated as an app [TS]

  platform you know like a device that has [TS]

  an apple from like a SmartWatch like [TS]

  that that is complicated [TS]

  so now you're expected to have like this [TS]

  smartwatch a phone maybe a tablet [TS]

  certainly a computer or one of those [TS]

  things you know so like you have all [TS]

  these devices that thing and then your [TS]

  cars are getting smarter they have [TS]

  software that whether it whether it gets [TS]

  updated or not it probably needs to like [TS]

  like my car now does not have [TS]

  over-the-air updates the way Tesla does [TS]

  but it has plenty of software bugs that [TS]

  should be fixed [TS]

  yeah its biggest don't get fixed at the [TS]

  quality that they have the platform [TS]

  thing is interesting because I think [TS]

  we're in the process of trying to figure [TS]

  out what things should be platforms and [TS]

  what things should I think like for the [TS]

  most part thus far we've decided that [TS]

  washing machine should not be [TS]

  application platforms [TS]

  I think we're all pretty much in [TS]

  agreement there so far but people are [TS]

  going to try things that she watches the [TS]

  application platforms should phones [TS]

  should like should televisions we're [TS]

  finding out the answers to those things [TS]

  now I think we pretty much found out [TS]

  phones yes they should probably be [TS]

  application platforms to televisions [TS]

  carry kinda maybe still out watches jury [TS]

  still out cars i think your figure [TS]

  you're gonna figure that out for us mark [TS]

  alright mean that maybe like this is not [TS]

  really you know it [TS]

  everything is potentially one but they [TS]

  can't all be there is no future where [TS]

  everything is an app platform in the way [TS]

  that we think of that platforms today [TS]

  but everything will have cpu is [TS]

  everything for all you know everything [TS]

  could be getting magic wireless software [TS]

  updates you know again as the as the [TS]

  price of computing drops to zero as the [TS]

  power consumption of computing drops to [TS]

  zero as it becomes just so damn cheap [TS]

  and so power you know and and like [TS]

  ubiquitous net wireless networking [TS]

  everywhere with low-power you just put [TS]

  in everything and if you can come up [TS]

  with these sort of the wireless internet [TS]

  enabled equivalent of the dumb embedded [TS]

  cpu that's in your rice cooker that does [TS]

  the fuzzy logic fair when to stop [TS]

  cooking your rice if that has some [TS]

  little minor bug or even just want to [TS]

  patch something to the International [TS]

  Date authority decides we're going to [TS]

  skip january fifteenth in the year 2027 [TS]

  for some reason or whatever that all the [TS]

  devices in your house will wirelessly [TS]

  get updates to handle that date thing [TS]

  and you won't think about it they'll be [TS]

  great like that's a that's a potential [TS]

  cool future and it's eminently possible [TS]

  but it still doesn't make it right here [TS]

  in a platform because that just doesn't [TS]

  make any sense you know practically [TS]

  speaking [TS]

  because what we use it for you just [TS]

  wanted to be reliable and like 70 MW it [TS]

  may have bugs and you would like it was [TS]

  Bugsy six but you don't want to deal [TS]

  with that crap nobody wants to deal with [TS]

  it you just wanted to happen auto [TS]

  magically with no possibility of error [TS]

  like the rules for embedded systems are [TS]

  so different than the rules for things [TS]

  that are at platforms and then we're out [TS]

  there on the bleeding edge like the [TS]

  Apple watch and and smartphones and our [TS]

  pcs perpetually on the bleeding edge [TS]

  that's where things get all unreliable [TS]

  and crapping this is a whole different [TS]

  set of rules there and it came back to [TS]

  the Swift discussion if they can try to [TS]

  to drag those leading edge platforms [TS]

  towards more safety at the price of our [TS]

  restrictions as long as they do it in [TS]

  the same way and understand what the [TS]

  consequences can be unlikely sort of [TS]

  unintended consequences of trying to [TS]

  drag general-purpose Mac platform to be [TS]

  like a smartphone the sandboxing then I [TS]

  think things can work out eventually [TS]

  probably will mostly be dead but i find [TS]

  a little long time so we'll say [TS]