The Accidental Tech Podcast

163: Wet Right Thumb


  I'm starting to think seasonal allergies [TS]

  are some kind of bullshit like it not [TS]

  that not that they're not real but that [TS]

  I so I have in the last few years gotten [TS]

  really bad seasonal allergies and it [TS]

  seems like every single year it is not [TS]

  only worse but that everybody else is [TS]

  saying oh you know I read her blog [TS]

  this is the worst year ever for pollen [TS]

  or whatever whatever [TS]

  of course this house every year the [TS]

  worst year ever and it this this sounds [TS]

  like something is wrong house every year [TS]

  the hottest year ever i don't know if [TS]

  they're linked together but it could be [TS]

  that it makes for you know a greenhouse [TS]

  effect let's call it might make for [TS]

  easier to have more growing things that [TS]

  produce more pollen I have no idea if [TS]

  that is even the case but it doesn't [TS]

  sound plausible [TS]

  what I see is a problem that used to not [TS]

  exist as much that now is exploding in [TS]

  existence and seems to affect tons of [TS]

  people and the best thing we can do is [TS]

  take medicines that not only don't work [TS]

  but that when they don't work the people [TS]

  who tell you to take them say oh well it [TS]

  doesn't it didn't work this time because [TS]

  you didn't start taking a few weeks [TS]

  beforehand or Oh it'll you're building [TS]

  up a tolerance will start working [TS]

  eventually I mean it's like I feel like [TS]

  I'm spending whatever it is a dollar [TS]

  fifty a day on these pills that do [TS]

  nothing every year it's worse and worse [TS]

  I don't know it so i mean when i was a [TS]

  kid i take allergy shots because I i had [TS]

  allergies and that made them a lot [TS]

  better and I heard adults do allergy [TS]

  shots sometimes for seasonal allergies [TS]

  do any of you have in you and the chat [TS]

  anybody have experience that because i [TS]

  would i would gladly do allergy shots [TS]

  again if it could fix this because every [TS]

  year at least in the spring sometimes [TS]

  also in the fall [TS]

  I'm just useless for like two weeks and [TS]

  with a combination of like sick kids [TS]

  season in the winter preceding this it's [TS]

  just exhausting and it makes it hard to [TS]

  do anything you should try some some [TS]

  Hopi and what is it homeopathic call me [TS]

  up the thick what however you pronounce [TS]

  I want some of those remedies because I [TS]

  they work really well [TS]

  oh I'm already taking them by not taking [TS]

  them [TS]

  hey I'm taking the maximum effective [TS]

  dose by not taking them at all haha [TS]

  rightly divide by zero something like [TS]

  that works out right so let's do some [TS]

  follow-up and it starts with we got a [TS]

  lot of feedback about how Walmart is [TS]

  energy-efficient and I don't even recall [TS]

  having talked about that in the prior [TS]

  episode i remember talking about energy [TS]

  efficiency of course but i guess one of [TS]

  us made some sort of flipping comment [TS]

  about it and inhabit out that was me I [TS]

  been through one under the bus because [TS]

  they're the the standard-bearer for a [TS]

  terrible giant american company right [TS]

  and so I just assumed that they were [TS]

  also the type of company that would [TS]

  pinch pennies and not bother investing [TS]

  in green energy but that is not the case [TS]

  we will link to a walmart website where [TS]

  they were talking about are the [TS]

  renewable plans they plan to be under on [TS]

  hundred percent renewable energy by 2020 [TS]

  so they're not quite where Apple is [TS]

  today but they have plans to get there [TS]

  they have a whole big page on the [TS]

  website about sustainability [TS]

  I you know I I hesitate to say this [TS]

  because I'm sure we'll just get more [TS]

  email from people telling me the walmart [TS]

  doesn't do anything bad ever [TS]

  well that's not true i only wish that [TS]

  their sustainability that they have this [TS]

  page extended to the sustainability of [TS]

  their workforces and paying them enough [TS]

  to be alive and healthy and not relying [TS]

  on well take if they can't get paying [TS]

  benefits to rest the government pickups [TS]

  back anyway I don't like Walmart have [TS]

  you noticed but they are actually doing [TS]

  solar stuff so I was wrong in that [TS]

  there you go walmart boosters that [TS]

  they're out there in Walmart's defense [TS]

  which is a probably afraid you'll never [TS]

  hear me say again but in Walmart's [TS]

  defense if you look at other retailers [TS]

  like Amazon for instance it's often not [TS]

  a lot better it's it's mostly what [TS]

  mostly at fault here is retail is a [TS]

  terrible and extremely cutthroat [TS]

  business and government regulations on [TS]

  things like minimum wage simply don't go [TS]

  far enough okay to emails next topic [TS]

  well now that i wouldn't call it a [TS]

  walmart defense that would just be [TS]

  saying like Walmart does bad things and [TS]

  also other people do too and so [TS]

  they're all so bad it doesn't make them [TS]

  any better to find other people who do [TS]

  the bad thing and we're not going to get [TS]

  into it you know like well if you don't [TS]

  like the minimum wage like well my other [TS]

  my competitors can pay their blood [TS]

  employees this low and we don't we're [TS]

  gonna go out of business anyway [TS]

  yes there maybe there's lots of blame to [TS]

  go around but Walmart is far from [TS]

  blameless but they do put solar panels [TS]

  on the roof things so there's they've [TS]

  got that going for the one thing they do [TS]

  okay we all right so I wanted to tell us [TS]

  about USB ports on the ipad pro because [TS]

  apparently we're all confused about it [TS]

  we are not confused i was just thinking [TS]

  about it the other day it's not what you [TS]

  think it's not like oh yeah the USB two [TS]

  speeds on the the 9.7 inch iPad and [TS]

  stuff like that when I was thinking [TS]

  about is you got this relatively huge [TS]

  ipad pro the big one and even the you [TS]

  know the regular-sized iPad has a lot of [TS]

  room on it and at these days the only [TS]

  thing on them and now they removed like [TS]

  the rotation lock and everything is like [TS]

  power volume of course that you know [TS]

  that the home button touch ID sensor but [TS]

  then this one tiny little lightning port [TS]

  on the side and I was like well what's [TS]

  the next step for the big ipad pro your [TS]

  keyboards you can attach them it's got a [TS]

  smart connector on the side you know [TS]

  he's got a stylist and i was i was the [TS]

  most inspired by Marco talking last week [TS]

  about you could always hook up USB [TS]

  things to iPads and iOS devices and they [TS]

  were just magically work if you could [TS]

  somehow find a way to power them if they [TS]

  if they didn't get enough power from the [TS]

  port and stuff like that like that the [TS]

  drivers are on there so the big ipad pro [TS]

  why would you not have actual USB ports [TS]

  on it i mean i guess not more than one [TS]

  because you wouldn't want to be more [TS]

  powerful than a quick one right but [TS]

  anyway but what why wouldn't you you [TS]

  know as opposed to having a camera [TS]

  adapter and all this other stuff like [TS]

  you know or or SD card slot over but [TS]

  there's just so much freaking room on [TS]

  the big ipad pro but as far as USB [TS]

  connectors apple is painted itself into [TS]

  kind of a corner with the Lightning [TS]

  thing because the practical reason why [TS]

  you wouldn't put USB connectors on the [TS]

  ipad is if you did put them there they [TS]

  be USB type-c and USB type-c looks a [TS]

  hell lot like lightning and I can just [TS]

  imagine people jamming their lighting [TS]

  into the USBC port or vice versa and [TS]

  that's like a nightmare [TS]

  usability I mean how could you [TS]

  distinguish between those two ports they [TS]

  they are different sizes physically [TS]

  speaking and probably with the big one [TS]

  can fit into the small one but i don't [TS]

  think that's the reason what right but i [TS]

  meant i think it would be a natural [TS]

  evolution of especially the very big [TS]

  ipad pro two have actual USB ports on [TS]

  eventually right but I don't see how [TS]

  that can happen when lightning looks so [TS]

  much like us bc so I wonder how Apple [TS]

  will square that and if the answer is no [TS]

  we're never going to have more than a [TS]

  lightning port on that i'm not entirely [TS]

  sure that's the best long-term answer if [TS]

  they really wanted especially the big [TS]

  ipad pro to becoming more and more of a [TS]

  viable laptop replacement ultimately [TS]

  there are so many reasons why you could [TS]

  you could you can conceivably think of [TS]

  why Apple would not be putting USB ports [TS]

  on iPads and and iOS devices in general [TS]

  but why wouldn't you put it on the big [TS]

  one long-term like I understand [TS]

  obviously you're not going to put it on [TS]

  like most of the iOS line but when they [TS]

  when you get up into something that's so [TS]

  big that it's it's so obviously not [TS]

  intended to be just a slip into your bag [TS]

  type of thing but it's like it's the [TS]

  size of a laptop why does that not get [TS]

  1i guess you know Thunderbolt 3 port or [TS]

  whatever because there's so much you can [TS]

  do like there's so many doors that [TS]

  opened in terms of how usable it on your [TS]

  desk as opposed to when you're walking [TS]

  around with it but it's almost a shame [TS]

  to be constrained by lightning forever i [TS]

  mean it's it's possible they will at [TS]

  some point you know we never say never [TS]

  with apple and especially with a product [TS]

  line and that is kind of on the way down [TS]

  on Cena sales-wise like Apple has done a [TS]

  lot of things with the recent iPads that [TS]

  we thought they'd never do you know in [TS]

  an effort to to broaden your help help [TS]

  it find its feet or you know help help [TS]

  increase sales in some way or another so [TS]

  i think they very well might do [TS]

  something like that in the future I [TS]

  think there's lots of reasons why they [TS]

  have done so far and i think they can [TS]

  very easily get past the physical [TS]

  challenges of of how do you how do you [TS]

  fit a port and then how do you avoid [TS]

  confusion with the other port I can get [TS]

  around that with you know either by [TS]

  pumping and not solving the problem just [TS]

  putting the USBC port on there which is [TS]

  not that unlikely or just you know [TS]

  shipping dongle or something I mean you [TS]

  know they are you know make a new [TS]

  standard [TS]

  USB Micro see and you declared an [TS]

  industry standard you know nothing about [TS]

  these apple devices will have for three [TS]

  years and you know then that's you know [TS]

  they could solve that problem like that [TS]

  that is not the reason they're doing it [TS]

  and if they wanted to do it they would [TS]

  get around that problem [TS]

  yeah i would i would like to see how [TS]

  they would get around that because USB [TS]

  type-c seems like I mean because [TS]

  supposedly apple had a lot of influence [TS]

  in that connector it looks a lot like [TS]

  lightning it's a from all accounts a [TS]

  pretty good connector as far as those [TS]

  things go [TS]

  having to come up with a new one just [TS]

  because the existing one that but [TS]

  hopefully by that point everybody [TS]

  industry actually use and it really is [TS]

  an industry standard because the Apple [TS]

  didn't make it up [TS]

  I'm just having to come up with one more [TS]

  where connector I don't know it just [TS]

  seems like a shame to meet in it seems [TS]

  like a shame in the same way that it has [TS]

  always been a shame and continues to be [TS]

  a shame that Microsoft chose the same [TS]

  modifier key as unix meaning that you [TS]

  want to unity stuff on windows it's a [TS]

  battle between the unix environment and [TS]

  the windows environment like you know [TS]

  ctrl-c does that mean you know send the [TS]

  interrupt signal or copy text and you [TS]

  know depends on where you are as Apple [TS]

  through mostly accidents of history [TS]

  happened to not have that problem [TS]

  because the mac operating system uses [TS]

  the command key and too much much lesser [TS]

  extent the control key so the control [TS]

  he's almost entirely available the unix [TS]

  environment so when they did the [TS]

  chocolate peanut butter combination that [TS]

  is or was Mac OS 10 hours os10 it was [TS]

  beautiful you don't have to worry about [TS]

  the conflict and I feel like Apple is on [TS]

  the windows control key for the OS side [TS]

  of the equation with its lighting ports [TS]

  basically making it a little bit extra [TS]

  bit of a pain in the butt you know they [TS]

  have now they have a problem to solve [TS]

  whereas these devices that are just USBC [TS]

  from top to bottom won't have that [TS]

  problem to solve their only problem will [TS]

  be like how many of these USBC port so [TS]

  we put on our cool new laptop [TS]

  replacement tablet thing I forget that [TS]

  the surface has USBC port on it but [TS]

  anyway if they wanted to it seems like I [TS]

  think they could do much more easily [TS]

  than apple and it's one of those [TS]

  problems where it's like well couldn't [TS]

  windows have changed that but they added [TS]

  the windows key that could have changed [TS]

  their modifier but it just has so much [TS]

  inertia and it would annoy so many [TS]

  people that windows continues to learn [TS]

  along with the control keeping the [TS]

  modifier for everything [TS]

  well don't worry and windows will never [TS]

  have any kind of unix support [TS]

  did you have that open to hang out I [TS]

  know it's I don't think I mean [TS]

  that'sthat's unix never-changing taking [TS]

  the control away from them and it in the [TS]

  grand scheme of things that small issue [TS]

  but it's one of those things that makes [TS]

  me happy about my combination of [TS]

  mackineeks every time I deal with it and [TS]

  looking at the ipad and lightning port [TS]

  and the USBC port shape that makes me [TS]

  for my brow bit so I mean at this is not [TS]

  on a topic list which is why I'm going [TS]

  to derail us and talking about it why do [TS]

  you think they haven't put a lot of put [TS]

  a USB port on ipad so far and and and [TS]

  what do you think they could do that i [TS]

  mean i think the former is easy to [TS]

  explain like why have done so far I [TS]

  think that the big things are that it [TS]

  seemed like the past they want to move [TS]

  forward from that and didn't want to [TS]

  build support for these devices and deal [TS]

  with all the all the technical and [TS]

  software complexity of that and also [TS]

  they kinda like things to be all include [TS]

  we all kind of enclosed for instance one [TS]

  of the things that you would want the [TS]

  USB port for be additional storage and [TS]

  they are don't want to do that they [TS]

  wanted to buy from them so i think [TS]

  there's lots of reasons why they haven't [TS]

  done it before [TS]

  what do you think could motivate them to [TS]

  to add USB like ports for kind of [TS]

  general use on the ipad pro I've seen [TS]

  people use the little camera connection [TS]

  kit that has a USB port on it and the [TS]

  only time I think I've ever seen it was [TS]

  you doing live broadcasts when were in [TS]

  San Francisco 4wd see I know that Jason [TS]

  smell is you know play around with it as [TS]

  have others but i cannot think of anyone [TS]

  other than you Marco that I've ever seen [TS]

  use the USB to lightning or in the past [TS]

  USB dock connectors so I just don't feel [TS]

  like there's much of a market for like I [TS]

  can't think of anything that I would [TS]

  want to plug into my ipad other than [TS]

  maybe the memory card from my camera or [TS]

  the camera itself [TS]

  hence the connection the dongle being [TS]

  called the camera connector I just don't [TS]

  see why one would want this [TS]

  well it's a kind of as with all these [TS]

  things in a race with the we talked [TS]

  about this many shows ago it's in a race [TS]

  with the wire [TS]

  this technology's right so there's lots [TS]

  of wireless standards out there for [TS]

  everything from wireless display to [TS]

  wireless power to all you know obviously [TS]

  we have wireless networking and that is [TS]

  but become pervasive so it really kind [TS]

  of is a race between the eventual need [TS]

  to do some of the things that USB does [TS]

  on on tablet devices and how long it [TS]

  takes for all those wireless standards [TS]

  to become to reach their wife I'm gonna [TS]

  wear for a moment where they finally [TS]

  become good enough for general use and [TS]

  just spread everywhere because but no [TS]

  one loves wires like if you could have I [TS]

  love lawyers wireless display and you [TS]

  know why are the storage and wireless [TS]

  power so you just come to us with your [TS]

  laptop and put it down in your big [TS]

  screen for any returns on like of course [TS]

  who wouldn't want that right i mean [TS]

  especially things like monitors that you [TS]

  plug into the wall and like you have to [TS]

  recharge the batteries in your monitor [TS]

  the monitor but still be plugged into [TS]

  just didn't have to deal with anybody [TS]

  we're not there yet obviously with those [TS]

  but so setting that aside and the fact [TS]

  that could swamp all this the reason you [TS]

  eventually want something like us beyond [TS]

  the big ipad or whatever is in the same [TS]

  reason they added a stylist right or [TS]

  they made the big version that they're [TS]

  they're extending these the capabilities [TS]

  of the device you know and you're [TS]

  multitasking with a split screen that [TS]

  they want people to be able to do things [TS]

  with these devices that they couldn't do [TS]

  with the simpler ones and it's because [TS]

  they're becoming more powerful they're [TS]

  becoming the out that there was someone [TS]

  posted recently i think it was a joke [TS]

  between something about like look at all [TS]

  of the CPUs that have ever been and i [TS]

  think it was microsoft surface or I [TS]

  forget what it was some other you know [TS]

  slim sort of people something that [TS]

  people accept a laptop replacement look [TS]

  at how many of them are slower than the [TS]

  ipad pro write it if if the top end of [TS]

  technology in terms of computing power [TS]

  is not growing as it used to and we will [TS]

  talk about in tech not tick tock stuff [TS]

  later in the show i eventually these [TS]

  things that are historically lesser [TS]

  devices laptops and eventually tablets [TS]

  and eventually supposedly phones will [TS]

  slowly creep up and start closing the [TS]

  gap and you will be left with the [TS]

  situation where a big ipad pro can have [TS]

  all the power [TS]

  maybe they just don't think the mac pro [TS]

  anymore eventually a big ipad pro will [TS]

  have all the power of the current mac [TS]

  pro because i'll never forget updated [TS]

  machine and if you have if you have a [TS]

  small you know it's against the the [TS]

  price and size the computer starts [TS]

  dropping 20 then you will want to have a [TS]

  little thing like that you carry around [TS]

  with you and your bag that you check on [TS]

  your desk in that when you do so you can [TS]

  connect to all the peripherals that [TS]

  you'd want in a big desk environment you [TS]

  can have multiple monitors hooked up you [TS]

  can have larger storage you could have [TS]

  wired networking for faster transfers [TS]

  you could have all sorts of other [TS]

  peripherals and the question is do you [TS]

  need to plug them in our they're all [TS]

  wireless so this point with today's [TS]

  technology a lot of them you need to [TS]

  plug-in so that's why I'm saying like a [TS]

  thunderbolt three poor like we keep [TS]

  saying USB but you know you hook it up [TS]

  and you have to external monitors maybe [TS]

  you hook it up and you have a big giant [TS]

  touchscreen it's like 27 inches that's [TS]

  you know like laid out on your table [TS]

  instead of being in front of you or [TS]

  whatever so you could do more [TS]

  complicated stuff it's like why why [TS]

  wouldn't have a desktop computer to that [TS]

  how can an ipad drive something drive [TS]

  peripherals that powerful eventually it [TS]

  will be able to again especially at the [TS]

  top and it continues to grow more slowly [TS]

  than the bottom so i feel like the [TS]

  functionality currently enabled by [TS]

  Thunderbolt port or USB 3 port [TS]

  inevitably will come to tablet class [TS]

  devices assuming tablet devices still [TS]

  existed not like they are devices or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  the only question is when that comes to [TS]

  pass will we need to use the USB [TS]

  connector to do it or we'll all be [TS]

  Wireless will be some other standard so [TS]

  here's here's an interesting thought [TS]

  experiment we've had wireless things in [TS]

  general wireless protocols wireless [TS]

  networking wireless you know device [TS]

  interconnection standards things like [TS]

  Bluetooth Wi-Fi we've had these things [TS]

  now for a long time and technology terms [TS]

  in over 10 years we've had these things [TS]

  not only have they been you know [TS]

  possible but they've been like [TS]

  ubiquitous for over 10 years and and [TS]

  very widely supported and really quite [TS]

  mature for what they are and yet if you [TS]

  look at the devices we use with the [TS]

  exception of things that are fully [TS]

  integrated like iPads but you know if [TS]

  you look like a laptop or desktop [TS]

  computer things that do connect to other [TS]

  peripherals or other pieces of hardware [TS]

  like monitors and stuff [TS]

  almost all of that is still using wires [TS]

  that was using wires 10 years ago like [TS]

  it seems like as the wireless things [TS]

  have gotten better [TS]

  so have the wired versions of the [TS]

  various connection protocols and [TS]

  everything and everyone still using [TS]

  wires for lots of good reasons like I [TS]

  love wires because they simply work [TS]

  better most of the time like they're [TS]

  they're usually more reliable they're [TS]

  often faster they can go in places where [TS]

  wireless kind of can't like hi [TS]

  interference environments or you know [TS]

  certain restricted areas like planes or [TS]

  no incident wireless stuff they have [TS]

  advantage of things like power delivery [TS]

  and battery usage and everything else so [TS]

  wires are kind of yeah I think they're [TS]

  here to stay like everyone always [TS]

  assumes that in the future everything [TS]

  will be Wireless you know as you like [TS]

  you can interfacing with your monitor [TS]

  interfacing with this stuff on your desk [TS]

  but maybe that's not true maybe that's [TS]

  not a safe assumption because I think [TS]

  we've had long enough now with wireless [TS]

  interconnexion things that have been [TS]

  possible and yet we're still using wires [TS]

  for these things because they just work [TS]

  better but no one uses wires for not [TS]

  working anymore they take the ethernet [TS]

  ports right off the devices like as soon [TS]

  as Wi-Fi was good enough not good [TS]

  because we always know it's flaky it [TS]

  slower like we all know the limitations [TS]

  of Wi-Fi it's you get interference in [TS]

  microwave oven and you have interference [TS]

  from your portable phones and your thing [TS]

  and then you can't get on the network [TS]

  and you know you keep dropping like [TS]

  Wi-Fi has problems but as soon as they [TS]

  got good enough people like will screw [TS]

  these things because no one wants to [TS]

  walk from place to place a run wires [TS]

  through their house or plug things in or [TS]

  whatever i do all those things but [TS]

  something is just not possible like you [TS]

  know having having the you know wireless [TS]

  display technology so you don't you know [TS]

  all the sorts of all those are laptop [TS]

  docks that you see in offices in the [TS]

  many different incarnations they come in [TS]

  and then no I don't want a doctor's 11 [TS]

  cable to plug in or whatever it is it's [TS]

  not that bad to plug something in but if [TS]

  you told those people in the same way [TS]

  that we told them hey every time you sit [TS]

  down you guess you'll have to plug the [TS]

  ethernet cable in and out anymore [TS]

  doesn't seem like a baby like who cares [TS]

  i plug in one cable it's fine it's [TS]

  really convenient it's so you know it [TS]

  works every time it's not a big deal but [TS]

  Wi-Fi just wiped all that stuff off the [TS]

  face of the earth there is no equivalent [TS]

  to Wi-Fi would say bluetooth isn't even [TS]

  equal to Wi-Fi because I think bluetooth [TS]

  is still not passed the level of non [TS]

  flakiness for anything except for [TS]

  devices that never [TS]

  removing output keyboards and mice i [TS]

  think people apart more or less except [TS]

  bluetooth but then there's the annoyance [TS]

  of the battery charging that wasn't [TS]

  there with wire so it has a downside to [TS]

  feel like bluetooth is borderline but no [TS]

  other wireless technology for anything [TS]

  else like storage or monitors or [TS]

  anything like that is as you know is [TS]

  remotely up to the the the net win that [TS]

  Wi-Fi was but it doesn't mean that they [TS]

  never will be and you just read any [TS]

  sci-fi book like technologically [TS]

  speaking there's no reason you couldn't [TS]

  have really sophisticated high-speed [TS]

  ubiquitous short-range high-bandwidth [TS]

  Wi-Fi even the power delivery stuff so [TS]

  you're saying on a very long time scale [TS]

  happened i don't have to be that long i [TS]

  mean you know people who use wireless [TS]

  charging for their phones [TS]

  it does that really exists I mean like [TS]

  yeah like those stupid little pads yeah [TS]

  i mean obviously the it you can buy them [TS]

  for Apple devices to but most people use [TS]

  i would imagine using for some kind of [TS]

  android device it that is not a third [TS]

  party thing but it comes with the thing [TS]

  but I I don't know people who choose to [TS]

  do that like that no one's forcing them [TS]

  to use that they find it convenient that [TS]

  when they come home they put all their [TS]

  devices on a big pad or they put in a [TS]

  little cradle and it's like what you're [TS]

  putting in a cradle if there was a [TS]

  little plug at the bottom of the crater [TS]

  wouldn't would make a big difference if [TS]

  you plug it in and fuck their choosing [TS]

  and there you know this is not always [TS]

  the biggest technology there's it's just [TS]

  more convenient to have to deal with the [TS]

  plug i just put on this thing and the [TS]

  charges [TS]

  it's not great it's slower it's not good [TS]

  enough for everybody yet but the fact [TS]

  that anybody chooses to do it its [TS]

  currents add unsupported state shows [TS]

  that there is a desire for it's like I [TS]

  feel like the the convenience hooks of [TS]

  all those wireless things are impossible [TS]

  to resist as soon as they pass the [TS]

  minimum you know sort of reliability [TS]

  threshold and and Wi-Fi is the best [TS]

  example and I think the only one that [TS]

  has passed in bluetooth is is on the [TS]

  border everything else it's like are [TS]

  able to keep revising the protocols and [TS]

  a few early adopters will try it and [TS]

  then you know revise revise your eyes [TS]

  will know when it crosses the threshold [TS]

  because Apple have it all over the place [TS]

  because apple doesn't want any ports any [TS]

  of his devices they don't want rotation [TS]

  lock switch for crying out loud that [TS]

  still drives me nuts [TS]

  there was no room inside the device it [TS]

  couldn't be a millimeter bigger sorry [TS]

  Casey we had that empty space for the [TS]

  four speakers they need every millimeter [TS]

  that empty space it's impossible to make [TS]

  the device [TS]

  did you guys have a mute switch bump I [TS]

  mean that if they have a camera bump to [TS]

  accommodate that Y component should have [TS]

  a mute switch bump on the other side [TS]

  think that it could be even [TS]

  mute switch is a bump like that's what [TS]

  makes it a switch it out and you can [TS]

  slide it back and forth don't get it [TS]

  they'll make it a touch ID button you [TS]

  have to use your fingerprint him you and [TS]

  you work with your hands what ya get you [TS]

  know the one hand trick though right [TS]

  what no you so that the problem touch ID [TS]

  sensor is that people found as soon as [TS]

  they introduced is they work fine but [TS]

  then you go do the dishes and you try to [TS]

  unlock your phone doesn't work and [TS]

  you're annoyed and eventually your hands [TS]

  dry it works again all you gotta do is [TS]

  what your hands a lot and then train it [TS]

  on your wet finger you can label it as [TS]

  you know wet right and then you have [TS]

  your you will train it on your dry right [TS]

  thumb and your training on your wet [TS]

  right thumb and both work life hack [TS]

  well that was always my so there-there [TS]

  was that there was that like court case [TS]

  whatever where somebody at some point [TS]

  ruled that that the police can't ask you [TS]

  for your passcode but they can force you [TS]

  to use your fingerprint to unlock your [TS]

  phone so my my contingency plan in case [TS]

  I forget questioned by the police and [TS]

  they forced me to access my phone suck [TS]

  your thumb what it would be like my [TS]

  finger for a second and then make touch [TS]

  ID fail three times so then it would [TS]

  require the passcode and then I wouldn't [TS]

  have to let them in just in case you're [TS]

  still water on your phone and then we'll [TS]

  be together before the the waterproof [TS]

  iphone 7 comes out [TS]

  yeah I think I think honestly think it's [TS]

  already too late as the success is [TS]

  already almost waterproof right isn't it [TS]

  like fairly waterproof I think it's only [TS]

  want to provide YouTube the magic realm [TS]

  of YouTube you can put it in a glass of [TS]

  water and it's fine if you do it at home [TS]

  and instantly dies [TS]

  I don't even know where to go from here [TS]

  we can follow up we like three topics [TS]

  deep I don't even know what's happening [TS]

  the show we got one item of follow-up [TS]

  left [TS]

  Oh God when you're in charge Marco [TS]

  everything everything takes term is [TS]

  never in charge now this is a life [TS]

  lesson [TS]

  exactly I'm not in charge i just kind of [TS]

  took charge because that's how life [TS]

  works [TS]

  you need an agent of chaos as they say [TS]

  something like that no one ever granted [TS]

  Authority you have to take it now i'm [TS]

  taking authority and saying let's get [TS]

  through this one damn last piece of [TS]

  follow-ups we can tackle topics our [TS]

  sponsor this week is Casper Casper is an [TS]

  online reading it worse [TS]

  I know but Casper isn't there on the [TS]

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  within a hundred day period it's that [TS]

  simple so here's how this works [TS]

  they shipped the mattress in like a kind [TS]

  of file cabinets size box kind of this [TS]

  compressed State his phone so it can [TS]

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  kind of fills the room and then you have [TS]

  giant mattress you sleep on it for a [TS]

  hundred knights and if you don't like it [TS]

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  and they will arrange for a free [TS]

  painless return those little sense [TS]

  monitor your house to pick it up [TS]

  all for free so it's totally risk-free [TS]

  if you don't like it [TS]

  chances are you will though because this [TS]

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  shockingly fair price [TS]

  the two technologies latex foam memory [TS]

  foam come together to give you just the [TS]

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  this risk-free trial return policy [TS]

  just try it for a hundred days try [TS]

  sleeping on a caster mattress free [TS]

  delivery painless returns and these [TS]

  mattresses are made in America check it [TS]

  out go to Casper dot-com / ATP and you [TS]

  can get fifty dollars towards any [TS]

  mattress purchase by using code ATP [TS]

  terms and conditions do apply to that [TS]

  thank you very much too casual for [TS]

  sponsoring our show this week alright [TS]

  John your crowning moment has come [TS]

  tell us about what's going on with your [TS]

  TV [TS]

  has it come we'll say no more than a [TS]

  year ago because we revisited on the [TS]

  one-year anniversary more than a year [TS]

  ago I banish my playstation 4 from my [TS]

  beautiful plasma television because [TS]

  mostly what i was doing with my [TS]

  playstation 4 was playing destiny and [TS]

  destiny had a heads-up display that's [TS]

  on-screen the entire time you're playing [TS]

  that is a hundred percent opacity and [TS]

  doesn't move and doesn't change that [TS]

  much and it was burning in my [TS]

  disciplinary visited a year later to see [TS]

  if the retention had faded and had faded [TS]

  to be almost entirely invisible to be [TS]

  replaced with the cartoon network logo [TS]

  which was also banished from my [TS]

  television anyway so when I banish my [TS]

  ps4 I got a gaming wonder I brought into [TS]

  another room and that's how i've been [TS]

  playing destiny still the main thing i [TS]

  do with my ps4 since then for more than [TS]

  a year now of course when I pulled my [TS]

  ps4 from the TV did destiny was new to [TS]

  me it wasn't new but I got around the [TS]

  time of the first expansion first [TS]

  yeah i think the first expansion little [TS]

  bit after and I you know complaint on [TS]

  the the bungee forms the bungees the [TS]

  maker of the game i say it would be nice [TS]

  if you had an option to make the HUD [TS]

  translucent and/or damn it or you know [TS]

  do some other things that would help [TS]

  with burning and is it was a big thread [TS]

  in their forms mostly consisted of [TS]

  people who don't own plasma televisions [TS]

  telling everyone who does that they [TS]

  shouldn't anymore because they're bad [TS]

  and that's why the sugar LED televisions [TS]

  helpful internet people it's just a [TS]

  bunch of you know kids like they don't [TS]

  they don't understand why anyone would [TS]

  want a plasma television that the only [TS]

  thing they care about is like my LCD [TS]

  television or they always called the LED [TS]

  television is is great and finding each [TS]

  other like kids kids calm down like stop [TS]

  fighting about TV you have like we need [TS]

  to concentrate on bungie and say bungee [TS]

  this seems like an easy feature for you [TS]

  to add like translucency seems like it's [TS]

  within your grasp graphically speaking [TS]

  on the playstation 4 to make the head [TS]

  translucent or make it smaller or you [TS]

  know many games do this they give you [TS]

  options to tweak your HUD are not [TS]

  necessarily for burning reasons for [TS]

  customization reasons but it helps with [TS]

  burning as well [TS]

  well you know there isn't there is a [TS]

  second option here that they could have [TS]

  done you know just never let you stop [TS]

  playing destiny because then it doesn't [TS]

  matter if it's burned into your TV it's [TS]

  always showing anyway if you could [TS]

  always play destiny if you never use [TS]

  your TV for anything else still matters [TS]

  you would think it doesn't matter but it [TS]

  does anyway you gotta stop sometime and [TS]

  definitely the only thing i did my [TS]

  television anyway so the gaming monitor [TS]

  i got is obviously does not look as good [TS]

  as my television the black levels are [TS]

  atrocious the response time is better [TS]

  but anyway so that's how I'm playing [TS]

  destiny for a year and the big threat in [TS]

  the bungee forms bungee like has not [TS]

  really said anything official about the [TS]

  topic of like other than acknowledging [TS]

  we have heard you about this request I [TS]

  and you know that they haven't said that [TS]

  in promising very very apple-like in [TS]

  terms of very acknowledgement that the [TS]

  issue has been received but no promises [TS]

  that it will ever be addressed let alone [TS]

  what time so i imagine my surprise when [TS]

  here i am more than a year later bungee [TS]

  was previewing some of the content [TS]

  they're gonna have in the April update [TS]

  destiny and one of the first things they [TS]

  showed was the ability to turn off the [TS]

  HUD that was mostly the features they [TS]

  were touting because people who you do [TS]

  movies within the the game or take [TS]

  screenshots you know you don't want to [TS]

  have the HUD they're sort of you know [TS]

  making it less cinematic and make it [TS]

  look more like a game so you can drop [TS]

  the head for like nicer screenshots and [TS]

  movies and stuff but there's also two [TS]

  other options of you know full opacity [TS]

  high and lower maybe there was a medium [TS]

  level didn't really get to see what [TS]

  those look like in the game but they [TS]

  were their settings wise so there will [TS]

  be options to turn down the hut I don't [TS]

  know if the low setting is low enough to [TS]

  prevent image retention that's not my [TS]

  problem my first problem is that i spent [TS]

  a year playing destiny connected to a [TS]

  gaming monitor and I'm kind of used to [TS]

  it in terms of if I was to go back on [TS]

  the television i would feel like I'm [TS]

  really far away from the screen even [TS]

  though you know you can do the math that [TS]

  my television screens much bigger but [TS]

  the distance wise i wouldn't be able to [TS]

  see as much detail [TS]

  I'm used to being closer to the screen [TS]

  close enough to like see the pixels [TS]

  because not a Retina Display it's just [TS]

  you know a 1080 HD display just like my [TS]

  television but i'm sitting like two feet [TS]

  from it instead of eight feet away and [TS]

  the other thing is when I mentioned [TS]

  potentially bring the playstation 4 back [TS]

  in my wife I said said that she was not [TS]

  for this idea because that will just [TS]

  lead to more fighting between my son who [TS]

  wants to play star wars battlefront and [TS]

  my daughter wants to watch television [TS]

  shows so it's better when they can be in [TS]

  separate rooms [TS]

  during the thing they want to do without [TS]

  fighting over the big TV so it seems to [TS]

  me that despite my dreams coming true [TS]

  here potentially the dimming might not [TS]

  be sufficient to prevent burning and the [TS]

  other thing is and the two issues are [TS]

  I'm kind of used to it i'm sitting two [TS]

  feet from my monitor I'm kinda used to [TS]

  playing that way at this point and for [TS]

  the the harmony of the family [TS]

  it may be better to keep my playstation [TS]

  4 in here now if they come with the [TS]

  PlayStation 4.5 as the rumors are that a [TS]

  slightly more powerful playstation 4 [TS]

  with that more power potentially being [TS]

  helpful to the PlayStation VR which I [TS]

  may eventually by i would buy a [TS]

  playstation 4.5 and connected to the TV [TS]

  so we have to play stations and my son [TS]

  and I can play definitely the same time [TS]

  finally and my wife and i like that even [TS]

  less but i would kind of have a [TS]

  quote-unquote excuse well it's not i'm [TS]

  not getting a second playstation this is [TS]

  the better playstation and where else am [TS]

  I gonna put it I don't have a room from [TS]

  the game honor it's got to be connected [TS]

  TV so this is a complicated situation [TS]

  but if somebody who bought a ps4 only a [TS]

  few months ago that really annoys made [TS]

  that rumor [TS]

  well it's only it's only rumor now and [TS]

  the extra power like probably wouldn't [TS]

  be a big deal because you probably just [TS]

  before be four vr which will probably [TS]

  buy anyway honest you know like aren't [TS]

  you going to buy playstation vr typical [TS]

  make you buy it i would like to see it i [TS]

  mean i i'm not sure i will buy it but I [TS]

  think it's at least somewhat likely just [TS]

  because I I I don't plan to build a [TS]

  giant gaming pc to try the oculus right [TS]

  so it is that this is kind of like the [TS]

  the alternative to that for more casual [TS]

  people like me so I think that's I will [TS]

  i would like to see it [TS]

  yeah it's cheap enough they're like you [TS]

  know what fine ever i'm going to give it [TS]

  a try this is giving an honest shot you [TS]

  know you're not gonna be like oh it [TS]

  would be better if I had a better [TS]

  playstation know it'll be you know it [TS]

  will be what it is the experience will [TS]

  be consistent you can try it out and [TS]

  find out if it's terrible or not so [TS]

  that's that's been my plan as well but i [TS]

  would like a playstation 4.5 anyway they [TS]

  propped it looks interesting [TS]

  121 infusion I know I knew I shouldn't [TS]

  have it used that a heroine anguish [TS]

  addressed and that i had 320 drop that [TS]

  was just saving and saving it like just [TS]

  yesterday I was like you know what I [TS]

  should just infuse that into my three on [TS]

  my mind why the hell not i know i'm [TS]

  going to lose a lot of points but pretty [TS]

  soon 333 35 stuff is gonna be dropping [TS]

  anyways there's no point in saving 320 [TS]

  thank god i saved it [TS]

  121 few [TS]

  coming in april this ends the gibberish [TS]

  portion of the episode yet Casey is John [TS]

  ok I don't know who you think should we [TS]

  call somebody a hand on heart I'm not [TS]

  trying to be funny I really thought that [TS]

  I just spaced out in the conversation [TS]

  when a totally different direction i was [TS]

  trying feverishly to catch up and figure [TS]

  out what the crap jobs just saying and [TS]

  then o.o is just talking destiny get [TS]

  nevermind i owe next next we'll have [TS]

  Marco tell us about watch terminology i [TS]

  can't even I can't even write those that [TS]

  are we good with follow-up any other [TS]

  follow-up gentlemen [TS]

  well done excellent alright so i don't [TS]

  recall exactly when this happened i [TS]

  think is a little over a week ago but [TS]

  last episode we were busy talking about [TS]

  the apple event sweetie and didn't get a [TS]

  chance to talk about it some things [TS]

  happened in the nodejs world last week [TS]

  some interesting things we have a link [TS]

  in the show notes to Heaney codes dotnet [TS]

  which is sharing my experiences as a [TS]

  programmer in c-sharp net and [TS]

  engineering manager and this person [TS]

  whose name I don't know whether than any [TS]

  anyway uh they wrote a very quick [TS]

  article about or a reasonably quick [TS]

  article about what happened on NPM and [TS]

  and I'm gonna take a stab as the [TS]

  summarizer in chief and you guys can [TS]

  interrupt when you're ready [TS]

  there was a person who had put up a [TS]

  package called qik k ik and the what is [TS]

  it a chat app or something like that the [TS]

  people who run that got in touch with [TS]

  him and were upset that he was you he [TS]

  had a package that I don't think it were [TS]

  in any way related to kick the app how [TS]

  to package that just have the same name [TS]

  and so they told him he should take down [TS]

  he said no and then I guess they went to [TS]

  NPM which is the package manager node [TS]

  package manager that that that you use [TS]

  with node and they got em p.m. to take [TS]

  it down and he then this this gentleman [TS]

  decided to rage quit npm and remove all [TS]

  this packages so far this is a kind of [TS]

  amusing but unremarkable story except [TS]

  that one of the packages that he removed [TS]

  was a package that was called left pad [TS]

  was it like 12 line string function [TS]

  yes you are right it is called left pad [TS]

  it is a 12 line or 11 line [TS]

  function that just pads a string on the [TS]

  left-hand side and apparently a lot of [TS]

  very popular packages took this as a [TS]

  dependency so in other words you know [TS]

  when you're writing code in in the [TS]

  modern times you usually have a package [TS]

  manager something like cocoa pods or new [TS]

  get or npm or what is pearl use [TS]

  something ancient something ancient yeah [TS]

  everything in pearls ancient something [TS]

  with actual tests that run against the [TS]

  code so you can tell I couldn't resist [TS]

  but that's Sipan right or something like [TS]

  that [TS]

  you got it okay so-so out most modern [TS]

  development platforms and pearl have a [TS]

  package manager here and npm is 144 this [TS]

  and when you have this package manager [TS]

  makes it very easy to import somebody [TS]

  else's code so apparently what all of [TS]

  these packages did including some very [TS]

  very very popular ones they imported [TS]

  this left package in this entire package [TS]

  was eleven lines of code when this [TS]

  package disappeared that meant that [TS]

  anyone who had already downloaded it was [TS]

  was ok but if you try to say code on a [TS]

  new machine or in many cases redeploy [TS]

  then this package was gone and all of a [TS]

  sudden everything broke and because so [TS]

  many popular packages took this as it as [TS]

  a sub dependency if you will like half [TS]

  of the note ecosystem broke and this was [TS]

  really chapping a lot of people's butts [TS]

  because a lot of the really smug [TS]

  developers most of them pretty much all [TS]

  from your right said why would you take [TS]

  an 11 line dependency why not just write [TS]

  those 11 lines yourself or just or just [TS]

  put them somewhere in your project [TS]

  somewhere in your control and there's a [TS]

  big kerfuffle about it and I as someone [TS]

  who has written a node app which is my [TS]

  blog and i just recently reran clock [TS]

  which is count lines of code on my blog [TS]

  and I put up a short blog post about it [TS]

  which will put the show notes the [TS]

  entirety of my blog engine in terms of [TS]

  the things that i have written is 850 [TS]

  lines of code then I did a count lines [TS]

  of code my note packages for node [TS]

  modules folder and that was a hundred [TS]

  and eighty thousand lines of code [TS]

  cool i'm not really one to throw stones [TS]

  on this issue but nevertheless I don't [TS]

  think it's really useful to poop all [TS]

  over package managers and the idea of [TS]

  taking dependencies just carpet lunch [TS]

  it's a bad idea i don't think that's [TS]

  necessarily true i do think however that [TS]

  taking 11 line dependency is a bit [TS]

  ridiculous so Marco as chief curmudgeon [TS]

  when it comes to these sorts of things [TS]

  what are your thoughts first of all I [TS]

  think Jon might be even more commercial [TS]

  than me on the head but your bike around [TS]

  i'm at least better known for for [TS]

  avoiding dependencies like this and the [TS]

  reason why i avoid dependencies as much [TS]

  as I can is not because I've always been [TS]

  like this it's because of experiences [TS]

  that I had mostly during the early days [TS]

  of tumblr lots of things that we used in [TS]

  the early days broke lots of third-party [TS]

  components lots of application layer [TS]

  stuff you know infrastructure components [TS]

  that were not very widely used were very [TS]

  young or were not designed to be used at [TS]

  big scales but most of the most of the [TS]

  problems we had were third-party PHP [TS]

  modules no third-party PHP code written [TS]

  by other people that we imported so we [TS]

  wouldn't have to write our own functions [TS]

  for things like s3 or image resizing [TS]

  stuff like that we had so many problems [TS]

  with this code especially the freaking [TS]

  zend framework I don't know if it's good [TS]

  now but it sure wasn't then we had we [TS]

  had so many problems with like almost [TS]

  every third party library that we used [TS]

  that we eventually just said you know [TS]

  we're just going to not use any anymore [TS]

  because it every time we would use one [TS]

  literally not just sometimes literally [TS]

  the majority of the time [TS]

  six months later we would be ripping it [TS]

  out and replacing it with either another [TS]

  third-party one that breaks much after [TS]

  that or finally be right around because [TS]

  they were they just were of low quality [TS]

  and we're not designed for you know [TS]

  high-needs environment or not designed [TS]

  for edge cases or whatever else because [TS]

  a lot of third-party code out there you [TS]

  know there's there's this myth that that [TS]

  open source stuff will be really well [TS]

  tested and and we'll kind of you like [TS]

  battle-hardened and you can rely on more [TS]

  than stuff you write yourself but that's [TS]

  only true [TS]

  sometimes it's only true for some things [TS]

  that's and that's how true that is is [TS]

  kind of a function of how popular that [TS]

  code is so if you're using something [TS]

  that is in use by everybody from [TS]

  facebook down to cases blog engine [TS]

  chances are that's been well tested and [TS]

  the bugs have been found in the edge [TS]

  cases have been hit and you're not gonna [TS]

  be the biggest person using it and [TS]

  you're not going to hit many problems [TS]

  but it when you're just pulling in [TS]

  third-party code from a lot of things [TS]

  it's often hard to tell whether what [TS]

  you're pulling in is of that level of [TS]

  quality or not and when you're it when [TS]

  you're in a young language or a module [TS]

  for doing something that most people [TS]

  don't need to do kind of like an itch [TS]

  module I don't have transmitted by the [TS]

  way I don't know it's a nice niche I [TS]

  forget it but I every time i say that i [TS]

  worry about that i'm the same way i'm [TS]

  right there with good okay so we'll just [TS]

  agree that we're pronouncing it badly [TS]

  anyway so that the let the fewer and [TS]

  fewer people use the thing you're [TS]

  working on a few big people use it the [TS]

  less reliable it inherently is simply by [TS]

  being open source or third party or [TS]

  whatever so I just learned over time [TS]

  that I was better off writing stuff [TS]

  myself and avoiding dependencies even [TS]

  when they work well they can cause [TS]

  issues like when the version of [TS]

  something changes and it breaks other [TS]

  things and package managers can solve [TS]

  problems like that most of the time but [TS]

  I've never seen a single one that solve [TS]

  them all of the time in anything linux [TS]

  languages and I mean like you're at it [TS]

  when you add dependencies like this [TS]

  willy-nilly you're really just adding [TS]

  work and risk and the idea that like you [TS]

  won't be able to deploy your site on to [TS]

  new servers because the original host of [TS]

  this 11 line function took it down like [TS]

  that's crazy lee there are so many [TS]

  problems with that sound just crazy to [TS]

  me like why are you not in control of [TS]

  that I don't know it as somebody who was [TS]

  run large scale services before every [TS]

  dependency like that just to me is a [TS]

  huge liability and occasionally it is [TS]

  worth using third-party code but i think [TS]

  it's a lot less often than what people [TS]

  seem to be doing these days [TS]

  well everybody builds on top of [TS]

  something I mean it's not like you're [TS]

  saying oh I was using the compiler [TS]

  they came with my system but eventually [TS]

  learned how to write my own compiler you [TS]

  know i was using the OS the chip with my [TS]

  service but eventually I learned that [TS]

  it's wasteful to try to rely on linux [TS]

  you never know what the hell they're [TS]

  going to do and they can break your crab [TS]

  so it's better to write your own OS like [TS]

  we all right we all go on top of [TS]

  something it's all just a question of [TS]

  where you draw that line and why so [TS]

  there's sort of for most of our lives [TS]

  been the idea that like no ones you're [TS]

  not going to write your own OS and your [TS]

  own compiler and maybe you're not even [TS]

  your own web server but if you're [TS]

  writing web applications at a certain [TS]

  point around the web server code [TS]

  boundary then it's like now it's kind of [TS]

  more programs do you use an application [TS]

  framework we write your own framework it [TS]

  was a type of thing where you can write [TS]

  your own web framework like it's not you [TS]

  know that's how all the ones we have got [TS]

  here like it doesn't take a 719 do it [TS]

  one person can do it [TS]

  yeah I did you use one of the popular if [TS]

  you use one of the popular third-party [TS]

  one's chances and you happen to be and [TS]

  marcos unfortunate / fortunate situation [TS]

  of you end up being you know it maybe [TS]

  perhaps unexpectedly one of the biggest [TS]

  users of everything you do because you [TS]

  are tremendous all of a sudden you know [TS]

  the compound growth or whatever and let [TS]

  me point out to tumblr was not that [TS]

  tremendous we started having these [TS]

  problems you know we probably had maybe [TS]

  a hundred thousand users when all this [TS]

  started breaking it wasn't that big of a [TS]

  service like relative to what you [TS]

  consider like a scaled or scalable web [TS]

  service it was nothing [TS]

  well I mean yeah sometimes when people [TS]

  hit start going to facebook is a great [TS]

  example they were using a similar [TS]

  technology stack and their solution was [TS]

  throw people and money at the problem to [TS]

  the point where they were compiling see [TS]

  that PHP and to c++ and crazy stuff like [TS]

  that that's another possible approach [TS]

  you know like and I don't know if they [TS]

  decided to write everything themselves [TS]

  they got down and we're going to rewrite [TS]

  the language ourselves and what is that [TS]

  hip-hop their replacement thing or [TS]

  whatever but those are those I feel like [TS]

  your extremes i think for the most part [TS]

  most companies that are doing web [TS]

  development i don't know if i'm gonna [TS]

  say for the most part maybe it's 5050 [TS]

  are using in-house web frameworks it in [TS]

  the modern error though there are so [TS]

  many popular web frameworks that work [TS]

  for so many needs that it's accepted [TS]

  that you're going to build on top of [TS]

  them i think we're there to places with [TS]

  us this silly javascript and only three [TS]

  places silly javascript stuff fell down [TS]

  one is an area that I'm familiar with [TS]

  because javascript is a crap language [TS]

  that is missing really important things [TS]

  that people want right and pearl started [TS]

  out as a crap language that was missing [TS]

  many important things that people wanted [TS]

  and still do today is missing some [TS]

  things that people want which means that [TS]

  to sort of to sort of round out your [TS]

  language ruby has a little bit of degree [TS]

  2 because they they considered an asset [TS]

  to sort of round out your language and [TS]

  make it a habitable you know to make it [TS]

  comfortable [TS]

  there's a minimal amount of sort of [TS]

  furniture you need to buy for the house [TS]

  before you can move in and it's not part [TS]

  of the language that's it you know done [TS]

  in libraries right so javascript is [TS]

  definitely in that situation which is [TS]

  why there's all these things like you [TS]

  know CoffeeScript and and type script [TS]

  and other things that are like try to [TS]

  make JavaScript feel nicer those are [TS]

  libraries but the same idea that that no [TS]

  one wants to just use drop script by [TS]

  itself because even basic things like [TS]

  say left padding a string are not in the [TS]

  language or the standard library or [TS]

  standard library is defined as what you [TS]

  can run your browser right so someone's [TS]

  got to write this stupid 11 line [TS]

  function right not in PHP they don't [TS]

  there are you know I know I like the is [TS]

  array packages talking about like this [TS]

  the common test and people want to do [TS]

  that's not in the language that it's [TS]

  easy to write but it's also easy to get [TS]

  wrong it's just kind of like a basic [TS]

  thing right so you want to do that PHP [TS]

  either [TS]

  yeah just JavaScript not nor pearl by [TS]

  the way javascript is in that position [TS]

  and so that's why these things exist the [TS]

  second problem is the JavaScript [TS]

  community not sort of having their act [TS]

  together enough to realize all right so [TS]

  we have this language that has these [TS]

  gaps the best way to fill them is not [TS]

  with 10 billion individual dependencies [TS]

  each of which has one of those function [TS]

  like as a community they should have you [TS]

  know sort of come together and settled [TS]

  on some much larger libraries are like [TS]

  and round out the JavaScript language [TS]

  for me live one point out right and [TS]

  maybe the seven competing ones of those [TS]

  but in that is much better than under [TS]

  left pad i'm going to do sane regular [TS]

  expression matching i know i'm going to [TS]

  do take inheritance in a prototype based [TS]

  language and you know everyone sort of [TS]

  just doing the little tiny thing and and [TS]

  having a million of those combined and I [TS]

  think the third failure for all the [TS]

  people who got hit by this bug is people [TS]

  who grew up in an environment [TS]

  where the expectation is that you can [TS]

  run your deploy at and part of the [TS]

  deployment or updating a singer whatever [TS]

  automated procedure they have that [TS]

  they're all happy with their not [TS]

  thinking about the fact that it is [TS]

  connected to third-party service to do [TS]

  that right if you're just slightly older [TS]

  if you're like you know maybe 10 or 20 [TS]

  years older than the people who are [TS]

  running to these problems you would have [TS]

  grown up in a culture like I did where [TS]

  you know you're building on top of pearl [TS]

  their gaps and pearl and you need to [TS]

  libraries there's web frameworks maybe [TS]

  writing your own you but certainly [TS]

  you're building on top of some real [TS]

  basics like DVI lwp or whatever help you [TS]

  know the sort of core foundational [TS]

  things that most people use Pro wanna do [TS]

  but if you're in a big important company [TS]

  you don't go out to cpanel to get these [TS]

  packages right you have your own [TS]

  internal Sipan mirror at your company [TS]

  checked into version control so you know [TS]

  exactly what the hell you're getting and [TS]

  nothing anybody can do on the internet [TS]

  it's gonna change what you deploy like [TS]

  the only nothing is going to break your [TS]

  stuff based on what's on the internet [TS]

  and you maintain that mirror and you [TS]

  sink upstream and downstream and you [TS]

  like you control your own destiny [TS]

  it's tons of third-party software like a [TS]

  cpn mirror especially back in the old [TS]

  days was pretty darn big and it's like [TS]

  why do we have to have our own Sipan [TS]

  mirror-like because you don't want to [TS]

  rely on stop on the internet when I mean [TS]

  sick for security reasons alone like so [TS]

  that the idea that pulling something [TS]

  from repository break people's [TS]

  production systems those production [TS]

  systems were pre-broken not by the fact [TS]

  they were just by the fact they're [TS]

  relying on third-party code not just by [TS]

  the fact that they're at their third [TS]

  party dependencies are broken down into [TS]

  microscopic individual functions with [TS]

  ridiculous names but because they [TS]

  weren't they weren't masters of their [TS]

  own destiny matter what you choose to do [TS]

  in terms of dependencies and you decide [TS]

  based on market was talking about you [TS]

  know is it reliable is it suitable for [TS]

  my purpose and I better off doing it [TS]

  myself [TS]

  is it a core competency but like all [TS]

  these sorts of decisions eventually [TS]

  you're going to do everything you're [TS]

  going to do some things with third-party [TS]

  code whether it's your wet RS your [TS]

  compiler or whatever but especially if [TS]

  its package management you have to have [TS]

  that stuff in-house and these days it is [TS]

  nothing to have a complete mirror of [TS]

  some public repository in your you know [TS]

  that it or just the individual packages [TS]

  you want to check them into your version [TS]

  control you don't need the whole freakin [TS]

  repository the repository don't need to [TS]

  be involved in your [TS]

  golden deployment process just get the [TS]

  code that you need and then that code [TS]

  will never change out from under you if [TS]

  it suited your purposes will continue to [TS]

  be suitable until you decide that it's [TS]

  not right [TS]

  in summary whippersnappers well I don't [TS]

  even know where to go from here [TS]

  all I will say is that it's interesting [TS]

  that you that you bring up like [TS]

  deployment because one of the things [TS]

  that I was thinking about when this was [TS]

  all going down [TS]

  was that when i deploy camel to heroku [TS]

  what I'm deploying it's just my code [TS]

  including my my list of dependencies and [TS]

  just like you said John heroku is then [TS]

  going out 10pm and fetching all of these [TS]

  packages on my behalf so this very well [TS]

  could have bitten me if myself or one of [TS]

  the packages I depend on was dependent [TS]

  on the one that got pulled so this is [TS]

  this is exactly something that I could [TS]

  have run into because of the way I [TS]

  choose to host my site and I choose to [TS]

  host onto on heroku for a variety of [TS]

  reasons but mostly like you said about [TS]

  core competencies I don't have the time [TS]

  interest or desire to be a linux server [TS]

  admin and so I choose for better or [TS]

  worse to have a platform as a service [TS]

  and that's what I like and I and worse [TS]

  with fine but that's what i like and [TS]

  that's what and that's what works for me [TS]

  that's how i've chosen to do it and yes [TS]

  there are ways around this even with [TS]

  heroku but but my point is even an [TS]

  innocent bystander like myself I am I am [TS]

  potentially guilty of doing the same [TS]

  thing that's weird to me that like that [TS]

  you know i don't really matter [TS]

  practically speaking that you're pulling [TS]

  from the internet as you deployed [TS]

  wouldn't I don't understand why that [TS]

  needs to be I dynamic part of the [TS]

  process like that that's that I feel [TS]

  like that should be pulled down like the [TS]

  same way you pull some cocoa pods and [TS]

  out part of your application every time [TS]

  you compile it doesn't redownloaded from [TS]

  cocoa pods and silently updated to a [TS]

  different version or get it like or just [TS]

  you never actually have it and like I [TS]

  know it's like more dynamic and just [TS]

  like oh all this interconnected web and [TS]

  network connectors never go down and I [TS]

  can trust what's on the other side of [TS]

  the network [TS]

  but I I don't understand how you can [TS]

  trust that honestly I mean I don't even [TS]

  know this is maybe this is another weird [TS]

  CP anything but like what kind of [TS]

  security is therefore if you're [TS]

  dynamically pulling every time you [TS]

  deploy you're just trusting you don't [TS]

  even know what the hell [TS]

  npm repositories Hiroko is using and how [TS]

  they might be poisoned with what I don't [TS]

  get this matter of personal side is not [TS]

  does not add specific issues just the [TS]

  culture of the same culture that gives [TS]

  you websites that n dot IO to implore [TS]

  you to you know run curl and pipe it [TS]

  through back you know man I'm exact kind [TS]

  of culture it's kind of like a return to [TS]

  return to the really old days when when [TS]

  I was first starting unix-like it I've [TS]

  told the story before it bu all TTYL [TS]

  world writable right that's how naive [TS]

  way they were like that was telling that [TS]

  there was no ssh your passwords are [TS]

  flying in plain text every time you tell [TS]

  méditerranée p anywhere all TTYL world [TS]

  writable it was like that the free love [TS]

  sixties right and that era came to an [TS]

  end but then you know fast-forward 20 or [TS]

  30 years and people are are pulling from [TS]

  an unknown website and piping to their [TS]

  shell sometimes they have pseudo in [TS]

  there any like someone just put in the [TS]

  chat room sometimes they'll be like [TS]

  seriously I'm gonna pull from a website [TS]

  and pipe pseudo SH I don't know some [TS]

  it's a utopian world that a has never [TS]

  actually really existed and cannot be [TS]

  recreated by wishing it were true only [TS]

  good decided realize that the websites [TS]

  that ended die or inherently bad this is [TS]

  news to me it's the whipper snappers who [TS]

  is the whipper snappers have you seen [TS]

  you've seen the websites i'm talking [TS]

  right like some some some cool new [TS]

  technology and they have a website and [TS]

  that I oh and their installation [TS]

  procedure wants you to just run a curl [TS]

  command pipe it into a shell like no [TS]

  thanks [TS]

  no thank you i will not do that i mean [TS]

  is it any really any better when they [TS]

  had like you know she'll archives you [TS]

  down like char files and you just run [TS]

  those blindly maybe it wasn't that much [TS]

  better but I feel like you're crossing a [TS]

  line when the network is involved and [TS]

  you're just like blindly trusting that's [TS]

  going over a wire that you just allowing [TS]

  to execute on your machine you just [TS]

  pulled off a website because that is the [TS]

  same as as downloading you know unknown [TS]

  binaries you know like you can [TS]

  everything's turned completely [TS]

  understand how it's all equivalent and [TS]

  then [TS]

  really that different and it's like Oh [TS]

  kids these days right but there is a [TS]

  difference some there's a reason like we [TS]

  moved to sign the binaries and all sorts [TS]

  of cryptographic things to assure us [TS]

  that at the very least the the [TS]

  application comes from the the person [TS]

  with incomes from it hasn't been altered [TS]

  there's a reason that is rolled out on [TS]

  you know phone platforms and 2 s % [TS]

  desktop platforms and game consoles and [TS]

  everything like that and the modern [TS]

  practice of executing arbitrary code [TS]

  pulled from websites in your shell flies [TS]

  in the face of that progress we also [TS]

  sponsor this week by warby parker who [TS]

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  ATP thanks to word Parker for sponsoring [TS]

  our show just today the Safari [TS]

  technology preview was released and [TS]

  we'll put the official blog post in the [TS]

  show notes but basically the gist is [TS]

  this is a separate app that you download [TS]

  via the web and then is updated I guess [TS]

  fortnightly via the mac app store and [TS]

  it's sort of kind of a more stable [TS]

  version of the Safari nightly if I [TS]

  understand things right except that has [TS]

  one important ability which I don't [TS]

  believe that Safari nightlies have the [TS]

  webcam nightlies have which is it can [TS]

  talk to iCloud and so if you're like me [TS]

  and rely on Safari and rely on bookmark [TS]

  sync and things like that you can use [TS]

  the Safari technology preview the reason [TS]

  this is a segue from what we were just [TS]

  talking about though is that I tried [TS]

  this on my work computer i haven't put [TS]

  it on my personal one yet and i [TS]

  immediately went to install the [TS]

  1password extension when I did so I [TS]

  attempted to enter a password for [TS]

  whatever was i was looking at the time [TS]

  and the 1password extension said oh no [TS]

  this isn't signed the way we expect thus [TS]

  this is dangerous [TS]

  thus we don't want you to do this and [TS]

  that comes back to what you're saying a [TS]

  minute ago John about cryptographically [TS]

  signing things making sure that what [TS]

  you're looking at is what you expect [TS]

  exercise etc so I just let that was [TS]

  interesting and good on one password for [TS]

  telling me these things although I [TS]

  couldn't figure out a way to override it [TS]

  which is a little bit of a bummer but it [TS]

  still worked really well the outside of [TS]

  the 1password issue as the the [TS]

  technology preview worked well [TS]

  everything seemed fine to me [TS]

  I haven't had the chance to kick the [TS]

  tires too much yet but so far so good [TS]

  i've really liked it have you guys [TS]

  played with [TS]

  small i only have one question did all [TS]

  of your plug-in icons all kind of shift [TS]

  over to the right side as you were using [TS]

  it or did they stay where you put them [TS]

  on the left side of the address bar all [TS]

  that friggin address bar even in non [TS]

  preview so far even just a regular [TS]

  safari frequently the icons in the [TS]

  toolbar safari decide they don't like [TS]

  where they are and would like a new home [TS]

  and then I think they'll just they end [TS]

  up just all because i think what happens [TS]

  is if they get updated i think they lose [TS]

  their spot and they get and they always [TS]

  get added on to the right side so I like [TS]

  a balance bar so I i have four of these [TS]

  buttons ago in the address bar from [TS]

  extensions i like to put two and left [TS]

  you on the right and it they always end [TS]

  up just having all four on the right [TS]

  after you know within a few weeks [TS]

  yeah that's not good about remembering [TS]

  where you put things in the grand [TS]

  tradition of the modern Apple they will [TS]

  let you arrange things sometimes but [TS]

  they will not respect your rearrangement [TS]

  of the only place i can say that isn't [TS]

  true is to the credit of iOS springboard [TS]

  is usually pretty good about not moving [TS]

  your crap not a hundred percent is every [TS]

  once in a while something will pump out [TS]

  of place like you doing always update [TS]

  adds an unmovable undeletable apple [TS]

  apple bumper things but whatever but [TS]

  it's pretty good but I safari toolbars [TS]

  yes [TS]

  yeah I have experienced that is that I [TS]

  experienced that not in the beta naught [TS]

  in the nightly but just in the regular [TS]

  stable one not even during updates and i [TS]

  usually blame like weird I cloud syncing [TS]

  like it gets it loses track of things is [TS]

  trying to notice that i added an icon [TS]

  somewhere six years ago on a mac is no [TS]

  longer in service with some state on [TS]

  some server somewhere inside Apple that [TS]

  wakes up once every three months and [TS]

  spews a bunch of xml towards our [TS]

  property lists towards my various [TS]

  maximum perturb the icons but how am I [TS]

  supposed to pin cute dogs to pinterest [TS]

  if I can't find the Pinterest button in [TS]

  safari a problem buying them to keep [TS]

  shortcuts but the most important feature [TS]

  of safari technology preview so [TS]

  unmentioned what is the most important [TS]

  feature [TS]

  oh the copy the clipboard things so you [TS]

  can get rid of flash know it's got a [TS]

  purple icon come on [TS]

  is the whole reason anyone whatever why [TS]

  would I want to eat why would I want to [TS]

  use this well its part ball [TS]

  purple is better than blue and [TS]

  definitely better than nightly [TS]

  which is gray yeah no actually that's [TS]

  the purple icon is actually you know I [TS]

  do like it I do like it better it does [TS]

  look neat and the reason i want to try [TS]

  but it's it highlights the one [TS]

  disappointing thing for me about it i [TS]

  would have preferred the chrome system [TS]

  where you can just sort of tell chrome [TS]

  go on the beta channel or whatever you [TS]

  only have one installation of chrome and [TS]

  you say but chrome update yourself from [TS]

  the beta channel instead of [TS]

  the beta channel instead of [TS]

  regular channel and the reason is far [TS]

  you still my default browser and I [TS]

  realized that i'm pretty much never [TS]

  going to use the Safari technology [TS]

  preview unless I sort of i disabled or [TS]

  making dirt the standard one so the the [TS]

  preview can sort of take over as my [TS]

  default browser but i don't really want [TS]

  to do that either like i would prefer to [TS]

  just have one safari and switch it back [TS]

  and forth from should be pulling updates [TS]

  from the beta thing or not but this is [TS]

  certainly better than it was before but [TS]

  never really ran the nightlies for the [TS]

  reasons the case cover that you know it [TS]

  wasn't it wasn't signed by apple so you [TS]

  couldn't have the the iCloud connection [TS]

  and everything so this is a step up a [TS]

  but i don't really want to run two [TS]

  copies of safari and I don't want to [TS]

  have to step up the old one and i'm not [TS]

  entirely confident that even if I tell [TS]

  the OSD my default browser is this one [TS]

  that the other one isn't going to launch [TS]

  on its own maybe actually give it a [TS]

  chance maybe we should try using the [TS]

  purple one for a while and see if the [TS]

  blue one comes back to life zombie-like [TS]

  unless like zip it [TS]

  but anyway lots of good new tech in like [TS]

  case you mentioned in the new one the [TS]

  bunch of shadow Dom stop acting strips [TS]

  xmas script six which is a slightly less [TS]

  crappy version of java script so much [TS]

  hate [TS]

  yeah that the copy and paste not not [TS]

  paste sorry I cut and copy command which [TS]

  is great and i love that they highlight [TS]

  you know this is the only reason anyone [TS]

  still has legit reason to run flash [TS]

  because the only way to get stuff onto [TS]

  the clipboard [TS]

  I don't we do it works sometimes you [TS]

  just wanna have a link that you click [TS]

  the copy something into the clipboard [TS]

  and having to run flash that has always [TS]

  felt gross so another browser supporting [TS]

  natively is good anyway [TS]

  purple icon thumbs up another [TS]

  interesting thing here I want to read [TS]

  you the entire cut and copy portion [TS]

  becomes very short programmatic cut and [TS]

  copy to the clipboard it's now possible [TS]

  to programmatically copying cut taxes [TS]

  and in response to a user gesture with [TS]

  blah and blah code having this ability [TS]

  may eliminate some websites last need [TS]

  for the flash plugin so yes i love the [TS]

  Dagon flash but oh when I tweeted about [TS]

  this earlier handful people were like oh [TS]

  god people just going to start pasting [TS]

  things in on me or they're just going to [TS]

  start copying what's in my clipboard [TS]

  what is going to need for one password [TS]

  in there everyone was a few people are [TS]

  getting very upset and I think it's [TS]

  important to note one that this is a [TS]

  read-only excuse-excuse me right only [TS]

  two hits in response to a user gesture [TS]

  and 3 i'm very curious to hear what that [TS]

  gesture is it is it that it can only be [TS]

  on like a click handler or something [TS]

  like that [TS]

  is it something more explicit i'm not [TS]

  sure but nevertheless I think this is a [TS]

  really good thing and it's already [TS]

  supported Cromartie supports like no [TS]

  other modern browsers have have ways to [TS]

  get things onto the clipboard without [TS]

  flash right so it's not so far as not [TS]

  the first one temple at this feature and [TS]

  yeah the security it's useless for even [TS]

  in response to a gesture I everything [TS]

  can be used to exploit eventually you [TS]

  know some kind of buffer overflow or [TS]

  whatever but they can't pull the [TS]

  websites can I get it what's in your [TS]

  clipboard all they can do is take their [TS]

  crap and put it there which could still [TS]

  be annoying like those stupid things you [TS]

  know when you try to copy and paste text [TS]

  and they put a little attribution line [TS]

  next to it like we've all seen that one [TS]

  that it can still be annoying to put [TS]

  stuff into your clipboard but annoying [TS]

  websites are always going to be annoying [TS]

  no matter what and so this website does [TS]

  that you just won't go back to it or [TS]

  we'll just deal with the annoyance but [TS]

  they can't you know if you copy [TS]

  sensitive information and go to website [TS]

  this feature does not allow the website [TS]

  to get that information anyway [TS]

  yep this is the this is a good thing and [TS]

  it's another example of a slightly more [TS]

  transparent apple which I approve of [TS]

  that I'm really I'm really pleased with [TS]

  the way 2015 2016 have been with Apple [TS]

  being more transparent with Swift with [TS]

  this this is all good stuff in and they [TS]

  should be commended for it [TS]

  remember we talked about safaris the new [TS]

  IE kind of stuff like not this is a [TS]

  director a reaction to that but this [TS]

  specifically addresses a lot of the [TS]

  actual issues raised in that like why [TS]

  isn't Apple doing more on shadow Dom or [TS]

  whatever like the idea that they just [TS]

  had the nightlies and it was an opaque [TS]

  development process and you had to wait [TS]

  for the next version of us to come out [TS]

  together thing now this is you know [TS]

  incremental step towards even if you're [TS]

  not a developer and just a regular user [TS]

  and you want to get features earlier [TS]

  here's a more convenient way to do it [TS]

  even marketing into the nightlies that [TS]

  we've been building for you for a year [TS]

  and hears us talking about on our blog [TS]

  that business not the first blog post [TS]

  safari the web blog has been updated [TS]

  frequently to talk about the new [TS]

  features are planning on adding and and [TS]

  just been much more open about [TS]

  stop the previously would have had to [TS]

  wait for WotC just sort of read the tea [TS]

  leaves of the WebKit work or you know is [TS]

  you couldn't even see all the webcam [TS]

  workers battle with do stuff internally [TS]

  and they wouldn't commit to the public [TS]

  repository until like they were ready to [TS]

  release and they're just being much more [TS]

  open about that process including [TS]

  talking about future products and say [TS]

  we're adding this that in that and [TS]

  they're going to becoming a future [TS]

  release with just you know like they've [TS]

  been doing a swift is unheard-of from [TS]

  the old Apple sort of talking about [TS]

  future features for products granted [TS]

  obscure techie nerdy type products right [TS]

  you know that only web developers or GUI [TS]

  application developers really care about [TS]

  but still it you know trusting the [TS]

  people are going to understand all what [TS]

  you promised this feature whenever like [TS]

  you see the whole development process [TS]

  going out in the open you'll understand [TS]

  when things get booted out we know this [TS]

  this didn't make it in time for swift [TS]

  three like when inevitably some proposal [TS]

  doesn't make it in time for three even [TS]

  though they talked about wanting to put [TS]

  in there no one will be mad because [TS]

  anyone involved in the process would [TS]

  have seen every step of the way why that [TS]

  thing didn't make it into the process [TS]

  what else were you doing during that [TS]

  time was like when everyone can see the [TS]

  process it's so much more understandable [TS]

  as I go [TS]

  well that didn't make it into three were [TS]

  you know we're kicking it down the road [TS]

  it doesn't seem like some sinister plan [TS]

  to withhold technology goodies from you [TS]

  just seems like the fallout of software [TS]

  development which has also unexpected [TS]

  things and when you've seen all those [TS]

  things happen in front of you who can be [TS]

  and I'm sure some will still find a way [TS]

  we've met but very few same people we [TS]

  met about it [TS]

  our final sponsor this week is [TS] was more than a hundred and [TS]

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  up at / ATP that's [TS] / ATP thanks to audible for [TS]

  sponsoring our show so intel has ended [TS]

  tik-tok and I don't really know what to [TS]

  say about this other than I think it's [TS]

  pretty expected so John what are your [TS]

  thoughts [TS]

  I'm just kind of said that I finally [TS]

  nailed down which one was it taken which [TS]

  one to talk and they can't change the [TS]

  process all the all the hard-working [TS]

  button studied and studied so which one [TS]

  is to take in which one is the talk [TS]

  drink is the tick okay but it's not that [TS]

  it matters anymore [TS]

  now they have much more sensible the [TS]

  name so they had to come up with another [TS]

  another you know I don't know [TS]

  catchphrase or whatever to marketing [TS]

  term for their new strategy funk and [TS]

  yeah so instead of tick-tock tick-tock [TS]

  think they came up with is not great [TS]

  tick-tock was much better so that team [TS]

  did a better job in this team and come [TS]

  up with acronym but this was PA oh and [TS]

  that stands for process architecture and [TS]

  optimization and so which one is the [TS]

  shrink the one that's called process [TS]

  like it's much easier now they made that [TS]

  part of it easier but PA oh does not [TS]

  roll off the tongue like tik tok does so [TS]

  it's basically you know processes the [TS]

  tick architecture is the talk that's [TS]

  when they pick pretty new [TS]

  microarchitecture a new chip that as a [TS]

  you know a different number of execution [TS]

  units in different branch prediction and [TS]

  different cache lines and you know like [TS]

  it's a new architecture and then they're [TS]

  adding a new third phase called [TS]

  optimization which as far as I'm aware [TS]

  i'm looking at older arkiro link in the [TS]

  show notes from antec as far as I'm [TS]

  aware they haven't really nailed down [TS]

  what's going to happen in the [TS]

  optimization phase beyond saying well [TS]

  it's not going to be a shrink and it's [TS]

  not going to be a new architecture it's [TS]

  going to be this third time when we do [TS]

  other things what can they do an [TS]

  optimization they can make the [TS]

  integrated GPU better they could you [TS]

  know [TS]

  maybe make it uses less power through [TS]

  more clever you know power management or [TS]

  throttling or thermals or you know I [TS]

  don't know what they're going to do the [TS]

  optimization phase will find out but [TS]

  it's going to be a formal formal part of [TS]

  the process and as many people to chat [TS]

  room more starkly trying to imply like [TS]

  tick-tock may have been the strategy and [TS]

  named for the past year or two but that [TS]

  sort of the length of the tick and the [TS]

  length of the talks have been stretching [TS]

  out in weird ways and really this [TS]

  three-phase architecture is just more of [TS]

  an acknowledgement of what was sort of [TS]

  happening already the time scales are [TS]

  stretched out more and that Intel wants [TS]

  to recognize that and set expectations [TS]

  to say we are going to do new process [TS]

  and then we're going to do in [TS]

  architecture and then we're going to [TS]

  sort of work on the two of them together [TS]

  for a little while longer to give the [TS]

  next process a longer time to hopefully [TS]

  arrive on our new three-phase schedule [TS]

  so we're all started still staring at [TS]

  sort of the oncoming train of the the [TS]

  end of Moore's law the real end is very [TS]

  far out in the distance [TS]

  theoretically speaking but practically [TS]

  speaking there need to be it's getting [TS]

  harder and harder to make things smaller [TS]

  and smaller with lithography techniques [TS]

  and the research and the money required [TS]

  to go down to the next smaller sizes [TS]

  like what you know that the real next [TS]

  breakthrough has to be like can't do we [TS]

  have to continue to use lithography you [TS]

  know sort of shining not so much lighter [TS]

  you know [TS]

  straining forms of electromagnetic [TS]

  radiation onto a thing to cause the [TS]

  areas exposed to react differently than [TS]

  on exposed areas that's what we've been [TS]

  doing for our entire lives to make the [TS]

  integrated circuits [TS]

  I don't know what's next assembling [TS]

  transistors out of individual atoms or [TS]

  weird technologies that you know and in [TS]

  the you know sort of the RND realm you [TS]

  can definitely make things smaller that [TS]

  way but you can make them at scale and [TS]

  so there's this sort of general research [TS]

  gap but anyway [TS]

  intel plows Bradley forward and let the [TS]

  last we talked a lot about Intel missing [TS]

  their dates and holding up apples things [TS]

  or whatever the bottom line is they're [TS]

  still ahead of all their competition in [TS]

  terms of their process how far along [TS]

  they are a different process sizes and [TS]

  continues to be in [TS]

  advantage for them and maybe they'll be [TS]

  the ones to make the next step before [TS]

  everybody else because they're putting [TS]

  in the time and energy and they're [TS]

  already ahead of everybody else so it [TS]

  can't really be picking on a little too [TS]

  much because they are sort of at the [TS]

  bleeding edge of this but if there is a [TS]

  wall out in the future [TS]

  intel may just get to it first and then [TS]

  everyone catches up with them and then [TS]

  tells the advantages is gone so stay [TS]

  tuned for the ATP episode in 15 years [TS]

  and we were visit that topic goodness i [TS]

  can only hope [TS]

  alright so speaking of Intel kind of [TS]

  falling on its face and speaking of [TS]

  really crummy and loose segways the [TS]

  oculus founders said that the oculus [TS]

  rift which was shipped in the last day [TS]

  or two right uh anyway the the rift will [TS]

  come to the mac only if Apple Apple [TS]

  quote ever releases a good computer [TS]

  quote maybe that's all Intel's fault [TS]

  so what's going on here why is what what [TS]

  in what by what metric is Apple not [TS]

  releasing a good computer [TS]

  I mean I hit a little bit last week i [TS]

  mean the the main thing is that the [TS]

  oculus requires a pretty intense [TS]

  graphics card and over time you know [TS]

  more pedestrian ones will probably be [TS]

  able to drive it just fine but right now [TS]

  it's so cutting edge and it has such [TS]

  high graphical needs that it requires [TS]

  are really really high power graphics [TS]

  card and there is only a handful in the [TS]

  pc world that are good enough to do it [TS]

  and apple ships none of those in any of [TS]

  their computers the only computer that [TS]

  could even come close [TS]

  maybe the mac pro but the current mac [TS]

  pro is two-and-a-half years old or so [TS]

  and and has fairly outdated gpus as a [TS]

  result of being sold with every covers a [TS]

  little bit last week so I don't want to [TS]

  go too far into it now but i think the [TS]

  short version is that there's a few [TS]

  problems here most of which apple [TS]

  doesn't appear to care about you know as [TS]

  a major drama discussing the second [TS]

  helping apple care that much about game [TS]

  on the mac but you know Apple has so far [TS]

  for a long time now tied their updates [TS]

  to intel's updates and as we discussed [TS]

  as Intel cycles i'm getting longer [TS]

  between major place their cpus that is [TS]

  also stretched out Mac update cycles [TS]

  and apples habit as a last week of [TS]

  skipping some processor generations [TS]

  until gives them for their lower volume [TS]

  products like the mac mini and the mac [TS]

  pro and you know even some of the [TS]

  laptop's these days first their strategy [TS]

  Apple strategy for skipping some of the [TS]

  things that they could use kinda like [TS]

  holding off till better ones come later [TS]

  that's also working against them because [TS]

  again as the as the entire generations [TS]

  have gotten longer we now have like a [TS]

  situation that we've had that we have [TS]

  today with most laptops where we're [TS]

  sitting around waiting for the sky lake [TS]

  revision from Intel come out in quantity [TS]

  so that Apple can ship them the new [TS]

  macbook pros and meanwhile the ones you [TS]

  buy today have something like a [TS]

  three-year-old cpu and them something [TS]

  has to change you know either [TS]

  well i hope i hope something has to [TS]

  change we'll see if it actually does or [TS]

  not based on Apple's actions but [TS]

  obviously Intel can't deliver new [TS]

  generations of chips any faster we're [TS]

  seeing that you know we're seeing that [TS]

  they are slowing down the rate of being [TS]

  able to deliver these things because [TS]

  just everything is getting harder so [TS]

  Apple needs to either be okay not [TS]

  getting these markets and bok selling [TS]

  three-year-old hardware in max you know [TS]

  brand-new today on a regular basis or [TS]

  Apple has to stop skipping Intel [TS]

  generations which would generally cut [TS]

  their product cycle time in half because [TS]

  they tend to skip every other generation [TS]

  on some of these some of these products [TS]

  at the mac pro or Apple can start [TS]

  issuing updates to products even when [TS]

  there is no new cpu to use from Intel [TS]

  which they hit they have occasionally [TS]

  done but it's not it's not a routine [TS]

  thing for them any of those things could [TS]

  could solve this problem also you know [TS]

  then you have the issue of like even if [TS]

  they kept their products more up-to-date [TS]

  what products does Apple sell that could [TS]

  accommodate the size and thermals of a [TS]

  high-power GPU and it's basically like [TS]

  one and a half it's like the mac pro for [TS]

  sure and then maybe the big imac [TS]

  depending on you know the cooling [TS]

  requirements and everything and you know [TS]

  you basically have two max that Apple [TS]

  could plausibly put really high-power GP [TS]

  using and both of those are probably [TS]

  pretty low volume products for them [TS]

  especially the mac pro so it just seems [TS]

  like apple doesn't really [TS]

  we care 22 to address this market which [TS]

  i think is unfortunate because I wish [TS]

  Apple had a little bit more hunger in [TS]

  attracting people from PCs then they [TS]

  seem to but with the exception of the [TS]

  whole ipad stuff but that's that's a [TS]

  whole different thing but I i do wish [TS]

  they would solve this more often but i [TS]

  think it would make max better also [TS]

  and if Apple ever has vr ambitions this [TS]

  will hurt them as well but for now this [TS]

  is the situation we're in and we'll see [TS]

  if any of those factors change [TS]

  apples apples attitude towards things [TS]

  has been frustrating like a couple years [TS]

  ago I wrote something on my blog asking [TS]

  for the cheese grater that hadn't been [TS]

  updated in forever [TS]

  back when the show started that was one [TS]

  of the reasons are icons with was the [TS]

  old cheese grater with the the sarcastic [TS]

  new label on it because they introduced [TS]

  a new mac brother was barely knew and [TS]

  it's like you ever going to update this [TS]

  what's the deal and I was asking for [TS]

  them to you know there's anyone left [TS]

  Apple who really cares about [TS]

  high-performance computers no they're [TS]

  not going to make a lot of money for you [TS]

  know they're not going to be high volume [TS]

  you know it doesn't matter in the grand [TS]

  scheme of things but if you are computer [TS]

  enthusiasts [TS]

  isn't there someone there who are like [TS]

  really likes fast great computers just [TS]

  like the example user halo cars in the [TS]

  car industry where lots of car companies [TS]

  make a car is probably going to be a [TS]

  money loser for them just because car [TS]

  companies are filled with people who [TS]

  love cars and people love cars tend to [TS]

  love fast cars and beautiful cars and so [TS]

  they make these cars that are just you [TS]

  know you might look at them as a [TS]

  boondoggle like you spend all this money [TS]

  on R&D it's got all these custom parts [TS]

  no one's even gonna use this thing and [TS]

  it seems weird infinity or whatever but [TS]

  you make it because you love cars right [TS]

  and they did that the two mac pro I mean [TS]

  you may not agree with their vision but [TS]

  you can't say that they just kind of [TS]

  punted it and just like oh here's [TS]

  another tower computer they had the [TS]

  vision of this crazy tube-shaped [TS]

  computer like that this was the original [TS]

  high-performance computing and it did [TS]

  you know it had these at the time fairly [TS]

  powerful video cards with 12 gigs of [TS]

  vram which was unprecedented shipping [TS]

  stock on a mac and it was you know like [TS]

  it was it was interesting and innovative [TS]

  on all fronts was it a good supercar was [TS]

  it a good halocarbon maybe not or [TS]

  whatever but then you can't go and then [TS]

  just let that sit there like mad and [TS]

  then you just lose interest right [TS]

  because that's sort of like on-again [TS]

  off-again thing where it's like we [TS]

  of high-performance here's an amazingly [TS]

  expandable max looks like a cheese [TS]

  grater and it's easy to open up and you [TS]

  could swap the ram and will update it [TS]

  frequently and well you know you can put [TS]

  in different video cards and has slots [TS]

  and look how easy it is taken out the [TS]

  drive and the first one can only do two [TS]

  drives now this one can do for is even [TS]

  easier to get the drives in and out and [TS]

  you know they made a water-cooled one [TS]

  like it seemed like they were on that [TS]

  bandwagon for a pretty long time lost [TS]

  interest and they came back and we're [TS]

  interested in is that immediately lost [TS]

  interest again and that's not a way to a [TS]

  to attract people who have similar [TS]

  sensibilities like hey are you one of [TS]

  the people who is like you know a [TS]

  gearhead who loves you know supercars [TS]

  and high-performance cars do you like [TS]

  big high-performance computers in some [TS]

  respects as an end in and of themselves [TS]

  like you don't even need this but you [TS]

  just think its cool the same reason [TS]

  people you by fast cars that they could [TS]

  never drive at the full speed they're [TS]

  gonna drop you know it's like if you're [TS]

  the type produces apple care about the [TS]

  customer sometimes they do something [TS]

  because there are people inside Apple [TS]

  who are like that but then all of a [TS]

  sudden they don't again it becomes hard [TS]

  trust the company so many people so many [TS]

  things I've you know been reading lately [TS]

  about the pros who you know maybe these [TS]

  people who actually live with Jenny like [TS]

  the professional graphics people are [TS]

  professional 3d people professional [TS]

  video people or whatever saying that [TS]

  sometimes Apple it pays attention to [TS]

  them then they don't they're kind of [TS]

  tired of the the relate the rocky [TS]

  relationship and they're going to [TS]

  somewhere that has more consistently [TS]

  supported them they're switching to pcs [TS]

  or whatever gamers have long since made [TS]

  that decision was the Apple has never [TS]

  really cared about gamers and only [TS]

  incidentally when they ship machines [TS]

  where is easy to swap video cards would [TS]

  you buy a pc video card flash it for [TS]

  your mac shove it in there and then boom [TS]

  you've got the mac that is actually [TS]

  really good gaming pc as well that's [TS]

  part of palmer luckey complain here the [TS]

  quote i put in the notes about this you [TS]

  can you can buy a six thousand dollar [TS]

  mac pro with top-of-the-line AMD FirePro [TS]

  d700 and it still doesn't match our [TS]

  recommended specs like it doesn't even [TS]

  meet like here's sort of like that [TS]

  here's what we think you have for the [TS]

  rift a six thousand dollar mac pro [TS]

  doesn't mean shit meet it like maybe you [TS]

  know when that 6,000 imacros introduced [TS]

  it would have been a reasonable thing [TS]

  like Paco's have come out then their [TS]

  their minimum spec may have been lower [TS]

  likely no but lower resolution or [TS]

  whatever lower target frame or whatever [TS]

  things are but nowadays it's the same [TS]

  computer it's still success [TS]

  dollars and it still got the d700 it and [TS]

  the world's just moved on by leaps and [TS]

  bounds even was introduced in this case [TS]

  the d700 was not a gaming photos cards [TS]

  or even was introduced their game cards [TS]

  that were way faster right but now it's [TS]

  just ridiculous but the price hasn't [TS]

  gone down right the old apple thing of [TS]

  like will continue to sell the same [TS]

  computer for the same price for three [TS]

  years while the rest of the world moves [TS]

  on which you can get away with in some [TS]

  markets but if you're going to do [TS]

  anything and sort of the high-end pro [TS]

  super-powerful whatever like I just wish [TS]

  the mac pro whether it has pay attention [TS]

  to gaming you know I just wish the mac [TS]

  pro would be the best fastest computer [TS]

  in the world at something pretty for any [TS]

  sustained period of time because i feel [TS]

  like that is entirely possible find make [TS]

  the best computer running that weird you [TS]

  know painting you know 12 megapixel [TS]

  textures in real time on two models [TS]

  things they demo to wcu Pixar and [TS]

  everything make it the best computer in [TS]

  the world for that for more than 15 [TS]

  minutes like it doesn't even have to be [TS]

  games but i think it should be something [TS]

  and it just it said they'd been [TS]

  neglected like that and said that in [TS]

  this case apple is completely missing [TS]

  out as far as we can see on the outside [TS]

  on the entirety of VR which who knows I [TS]

  really help Apple has also to be our [TS]

  projects internally and they decided [TS]

  it's not ready or not interesting or the [TS]

  form it's taking on PCs and uninterested [TS]

  or whatever but they're they're not [TS]

  allowing people who buy their even their [TS]

  highest and computers to participate in [TS]

  it even speculatively so it's kind of [TS]

  it's kind of depressing and the final [TS]

  point is that the whole palmer luckey [TS]

  slamming the max I think he's slamming [TS]

  with reason but it doesn't mean that you [TS]

  need an amazingly powerful graphics card [TS]

  to do quote-unquote vr you need for the [TS]

  oculus rift which is a particularly our [TS]

  product but as we talked about earlier [TS]

  if you have a playstation 4 u.can [TS]

  playstation vr for a couple hundred [TS]

  bucks extra [TS]

  it's not going to be as good as the rift [TS]

  it's not going to be as powerful but it [TS]

  will run on your Playstation 4 which is [TS]

  nowhere near as powerful as the [TS]

  recommended system for the oculus rift [TS]

  so VR does not equal oculus rift they're [TS]

  two different things as a specific [TS]

  product in VR is a concept how they have [TS]

  one so you can use in your cell phone [TS]

  now obviously the rift is probably going [TS]

  to be the highest end one or whatever [TS]

  but you don't have to entirely missed [TS]

  out in VR because you don't have a fancy [TS]

  high-end gaming pc you if you're [TS]

  interested in it as as at least Marco [TS]

  and I both are will try it out on a [TS]

  couple hundred bucks thing we buy a [TS]

  Playstation and i will probably be weird [TS]

  and it's gonna it's the very first [TS]

  consumer release of this technology so [TS]

  inevitably 10 years from now we'll look [TS]

  back on this VR and think it's [TS]

  ridiculous that we even consider vr to [TS]

  be a thing or look back and ends and [TS]

  look at how incredibly primitive it is [TS]

  compared to what comes after it so i [TS]

  will link to that love these in polygon [TS]

  basically saying your mac is fine for VR [TS]

  just not for the rift which again its [TS]

  high-end vs capability like I i want [TS]

  some mac somewhere to be the best [TS]

  computer in the world for some hot [TS]

  demanding computational function because [TS]

  I'm in too fast computers that's why I [TS]

  like I don't feel like any way to [TS]

  justify like that and I wish there were [TS]

  more people and apple they had the same [TS]

  attitude [TS]

  yeah and it isn't just about gaming or [TS]

  VR you know like it is even even if they [TS]

  are doesn't take off or even if even if [TS]

  you can if you can disregard gamers as a [TS]

  market Apple cares about lots of apple [TS]

  software or software that Apple [TS]

  customers would have run can make use of [TS]

  the extra resources of a well-equipped [TS]

  mac pro you know the mac pro is the only [TS]

  computer in the mac lineup that can have [TS]

  more than four cores and as discussed [TS]

  previously much to John chagrin I run [TS]

  utility in my menu bar called istat [TS]

  menus me too but uses up all those [TS]

  course it [TS]

  aah shows me when my cores are in use [TS]

  and by what and i've noticed you know [TS]

  like over the last few years you know [TS]

  even though making software [TS]

  multi-threaded is difficult and not [TS]

  everything can effectively take [TS]

  advantage of multiple cores i have [TS]

  noticed in recent years that a lot more [TS]

  of the things that I do are taking [TS]

  advantage of multiple cores and there's [TS]

  lots of and even stuff that a lot of [TS]

  people would use like apples Photos app [TS]

  for instance or any kind of heavy photo [TS]

  workflow lightroom Photos app aperture [TS]

  you know if you do any kind of video [TS]

  stuff of course that will use it to lots [TS]

  of software that that a lot of people [TS]

  use can take advantage of any amount of [TS]

  course you give it you know within [TS]

  within reason [TS]

  so you know you can it right now right [TS]

  you know [TS]

  the the imax and the 15-inch MacBook [TS]

  Pros have four cores i would love to [TS]

  have an 8 or 12-core mac pro that would [TS]

  be amazing but right now they're just [TS]

  they're they're not that competitive [TS]

  because there's no reason to buy one [TS]

  right now it with the prices on the age [TS]

  of them and everything but like there's [TS]

  there's so much software now so many [TS]

  common needs that lots of Apple [TS]

  customers do have that could take [TS]

  advantages you don't have to just be a [TS]

  video editor or a high-end gamer to want [TS]

  a mac pro you know and i can i can [TS]

  complain at length about the the [TS]

  trade-offs made by the new to mac pro [TS]

  compared to the old cheese grater it is [TS]

  overall a good product Italy if it was [TS]

  updated on a regular basis but you know [TS]

  the old cheese grater i think was was a [TS]

  better modestly and in many ways but at [TS]

  least want something some sign that [TS]

  somebody at Apple both a cares about the [TS]

  mac which is its i know i know a lot of [TS]

  the executives do care about the mac but [TS]

  sometimes it's hard to see the actions [TS]

  of that on the outside and be that [TS]

  somebody higher but Apple cares about [TS]

  high-end pro use of the mac and that [TS]

  that is the part that's been seemingly [TS]

  fading in recent years and I worry about [TS]

  that you know it's one thing to exit the [TS]

  software game you know to discontinue [TS]

  aperture final cut i think they're still [TS]

  ok on I don't know much about the video [TS]

  but i think they are maintaining that ok [TS]

  logic or maintaining ok you know even if [TS]

  Apple starts slacking off on on the [TS]

  heart on the software side of addressing [TS]

  the pro-market it worries me greatly [TS]

  when they start ignoring the hardware [TS]

  side because like the software side we [TS]

  have good alternatives you know if if [TS]

  aperture aperture went away we have [TS]

  lightroom you know and we have that we [TS]

  have the new Photos app if Final Cut [TS]

  goes away there's like a bit and other [TS]

  things people use you know if logic goes [TS]

  away there's other audio editors but if [TS]

  there's no more high-end Mac hardware [TS]

  you have to abandon the entire Mac [TS]

  platform to to have an alternative to [TS]

  that which is a really high bar it's a [TS]

  really big ask and a lot of people like [TS]

  me don't want [TS]

  do I don't want to be an act i don't [TS]

  want to build a hackintosh or switch to [TS]

  linux or windows [TS]

  I want to keep using mac OS and mac OS [TS]

  was designed incredibly well and [TS]

  incredibly well architected to take [TS]

  advantage of incredibly high-end [TS]

  hardware that Apple just doesn't really [TS]

  sell anymore and that's kind of sad [TS]

  well they open the opengl stack is not [TS]

  great but aside from that [TS]

  yeah I think you make a decent point [TS]

  Marco but i also don't think we should [TS]

  be throwing in the towel quite yet i [TS]

  mean.they i would agree that they don't [TS]

  update things like the mac pro as [TS]

  frequently as anyone in the world but me [TS]

  would want on purpose I'm perfectly [TS]

  happy with them not updating it but [TS]

  every 10 years so i don't have to go [TS]

  through another one of those months of [TS]

  this show when that's all we talked [TS]

  about that I'm good but you know in all [TS]

  seriousness I don't think that that we [TS]

  should be to disgruntled or sad that we [TS]

  haven't seen one in admittedly a fair [TS]

  bit of time because presumably this will [TS]

  get fixed and it will get fixed soon and [TS]

  often and I I don't blame you for being [TS]

  grumbly about the pace with which they [TS]

  fix their refreshing the mac pro but [TS]

  it's got to be coming I mean it really [TS]

  has to be and presumably soon i hope so [TS]

  it sounds like exactly what we were [TS]

  saying when the cheese grater was over [TS]

  like well but they got updated [TS]

  eventually and eventually we enter the [TS]

  second phase which is like maybe they're [TS]

  never gonna update again maybe they're [TS]

  just going to stop selling mac pros like [TS]

  that's was the headspace we're in [TS]

  background about the time the tube [TS]

  appear because we were seriously [TS]

  considering well you know apples really [TS]

  has a consumer focus lately and they're [TS]

  all about the iPhone the iPad and you [TS]

  know do they really need the mac pro in [TS]

  their lineup not not really maybe they [TS]

  can feel like they can get it like maybe [TS]

  they just won't make any more mac [TS]

  president came up with the tube and like [TS]

  I guess that you can argue about whether [TS]

  the tube is the correct division for [TS]

  high-performance computer but you can't [TS]

  say they skimped you can't say they just [TS]

  gave you a watered-down imac in the tube [TS]

  shaped like that thing was a macpro [TS]

  through and through with their vision of [TS]

  you know a whole bunch of ports on the [TS]

  back of the thing and and circular and [TS]

  two huge video got one huge GPU but to [TS]

  you gpus in one of them you know and and [TS]

  their technology using the four [TS]

  computers also using to drive that the [TS]

  graphics and the enclosure and like it's [TS]

  not the same vision as the cheese grater [TS]

  but it is [TS]

  high-performance vision and it was [TS]

  exciting to see that you know that was I [TS]

  think that was actually the Schiller can [TS]

  innovate my ass thing right like yep [TS]

  can't innovate anymore my ass that was [TS]

  legit you know you could be crowing [TS]

  about that and again like it you can [TS]

  just disagree about division of property [TS]

  you can't say that they were skipping [TS]

  and were afraid and we're just kind of [TS]

  like dipping their toe into [TS]

  high-performance computers they they [TS]

  wanted to make the future of [TS]

  high-performance computers but it's just [TS]

  it was just been so painful to see that [TS]

  thing land and then just nothing for so [TS]

  long especially since the one that [TS]

  landed you know as we discussed much on [TS]

  the show what Marco and I wanted was [TS]

  what was like calling back then the the [TS]

  quad 27 inch display right we can we [TS]

  knew this thing couldn't couldn't drive [TS]

  it right and it was like well but this [TS]

  is the first one you know it can't drive [TS]

  it maybe you could drive it no can't [TS]

  quite driving forever but you know it's [TS]

  not the white the one we want but ok [TS]

  maybe the text not ready for it but [TS]

  surely the next we'll do we didn't think [TS]

  the next one's gonna come three years [TS]

  later you know where that yeah and in [TS]

  the meantime we both got 5k i'm axel my [TS]

  wife did anyway um so we've got our [TS]

  display but it's not in the mac pro and [TS]

  the current mac pro still can't drive it [TS]

  and we assume the next one will be able [TS]

  to drive it but we don't know when that [TS]

  was coming and they even that's a ? [TS]

  honestly like whether whether the next [TS]

  Mac Pro will drive a 5k display is is [TS]

  honestly still a question mark but to me [TS]

  like I've completed the past about like [TS]

  about the drive-by software updates that [TS]

  like lower priority things seem to seem [TS]

  to get these drive-by updates we're like [TS]

  to get attention for like an hour [TS]

  you have one engineer working on [TS]

  something for like a week and then never [TS]

  touch it again and that's what you get [TS]

  something like the el capitan disk [TS]

  utility it seems like the mac pro from [TS]

  what we know so far and you know maybe [TS]

  apples about to prove us all wrong in [TS]

  this I hope they are but from what we [TS]

  know so far it seems like the mac pro [TS]

  update to the tube was a drive-by [TS]

  hardware update where they were ignoring [TS]

  it for seemingly for a long time and [TS]

  then they had this great this great [TS]

  update that you know again I don't I i [TS]

  can complete a lot about what they did [TS]

  to it because I i think they made I [TS]

  think it made it a lot more narrow that [TS]

  you know and and a lot more expensive [TS]

  and [TS]

  and then what it was before they really [TS]

  narrow the appeal and they eliminated a [TS]

  lot of a lot of total values cases but [TS]

  they did innovate at you know as fillers [TS]

  asked said they did innovate what if [TS]

  like if the the innovative and then they [TS]

  just kind of dropped the ball after that [TS]

  like there are new cpus for that they [TS]

  could have used in the meantime and they [TS]

  skipped a generation could upgrade the [TS]

  GPUs yeah they could upgrade just the [TS]

  GPUs if they're if they're so focused on [TS]

  this machine having these two [TS]

  workstation gpus that somebody like me [TS]

  who would want to buy the machine [TS]

  doesn't need it all I would gladly buy [TS]

  it with one consumer GPU and because i'm [TS]

  buying it for the cpu power and like the [TS]

  Rams healing and everything else and not [TS]

  not the GPU reasons if they're going to [TS]

  refocus the entire machine on this [TS]

  high-end dual-gpu use then follow [TS]

  through on that and they didn't follow [TS]

  through the GPUs are sitting there stale [TS]

  forever I've heard from people who try [TS]

  to use opencl 44 things that it's really [TS]

  kind of been head to head the ball drop [TS]

  on it as well that it just seems like [TS]

  they they came in and they did this huge [TS]

  redesign refocus the product that we [TS]

  weren't really asking for and then [TS]

  didn't follow through even on that so [TS]

  that's that's why I'm i'm so sad for [TS]

  this product because i love the mac pro [TS]

  i love especially what it used to be i [TS]

  love having this extremely flexible [TS]

  expandable tower that had to cpu sockets [TS]

  tons of ram slots you put a whole bunch [TS]

  of drives in it and granted you can [TS]

  modernize it in other ways like you know [TS]

  these days you don't need many drives [TS]

  anymore because now we're in the area of [TS]

  SSDs and and the drivers have gotten so [TS]

  big you don't need as many more so like [TS]

  you can you can see the removing some of [TS]

  these things i do still greatly missed [TS]

  the dual socket configurations and I i [TS]

  do greatly misconfigurations that don't [TS]

  have to graphics cards because I don't [TS]

  need them but I i hope they write this [TS]

  at some point soon i don't know if they [TS]

  will or not but but i really hope they [TS]

  do and I'm i'm still maintaining some [TS]

  optimism because if they don't the imac [TS]

  5k is a great product [TS]

  you know i'm using mine i'm i'm almost [TS]

  always very happy with it [TS]

  I i would like a lot more cpu power so [TS]

  if I you know if [TS]

  they make a compelling mac pro that can [TS]

  get Korres in reasonably I would love [TS]

  that but if they if the mac pro withers [TS]

  away an irrelevance the way it has been [TS]

  over the last few years and if it's [TS]

  never it's never good again i still have [TS]

  the imac and that's fine but boy I wish [TS]

  I got the mac pro back just because of [TS]

  cpu speed mostly because of cpu speed [TS]

  and fan quietness yeah yeah exactly [TS]

  things like being totally silent at any [TS]

  load level isn't is just kind of more [TS]

  graceful and nice i'm having happened as [TS]

  the xeon class components in the ECC ram [TS]

  and everything make sure that I feel [TS]

  like makes things slightly more reliable [TS]

  having more internal port stuff like [TS]

  that you know like you know like more [TS]

  USB ports built in rather than having to [TS]

  use wiki hubs stuff like that like I i [TS]

  love all those things about the mac pro [TS]

  in many ways i miss it [TS]

  and again if we never get it back the [TS]

  way me or drawn want it will deal will [TS]

  be ok but it does seem like a waste that [TS]

  would there's all these amazing cpus out [TS]

  there at the high end world like in the [TS]

  next generation of the broader Zeon's [TS]

  there's a 5 gigahertz part with four [TS]

  cores if you can have a dual stock [TS]

  configuration have two of those eight [TS]

  cores at five gigahertz that would be an [TS]

  incredible that would be the best single [TS]

  thread and multi-threaded mac and but [TS]

  whether i can offer that because the [TS]

  current micro design is only one socket [TS]

  and the CPUs they use can do to can do [TS]

  two things don't offer that machine and [TS]

  it's just like there's so much more they [TS]

  could offer there are so many great [TS]

  processors in the z online they could [TS]

  offer and there are so many use cases [TS]

  the old Mac Pro solved that the new one [TS]

  doesn't and all those things make me sad [TS]

  but I'm still hoping for mac pro update [TS]

  soon we'll see what happens i guess have [TS]

  faith that will happen hope so [TS]

  alright thanks for three sponsor this [TS]

  week [TS]

  Casper warby parker and audible com and [TS]

  we will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin as it was accidental death [TS]

  was accidental johns [TS]

  research Marco and Casey would let me [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  and you can find the show know today p [TS]

  dot and if twitter follow them [TS]

  yes eyl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment are bc AC [TS]

  recuse it [TS]

  what [TS]

  so you had a family member I did yes it [TS]

  has it has wheels though you subtracted [TS]

  yes maybe m5 rest in peace [TS]

  Oh miss that car you don't tell you what [TS]

  when when I when I was prepared to drop [TS]

  it off and when I did drop it off [TS]

  I was almost in tears like I really this [TS]

  is the only time that I've ever given up [TS]

  a car that i owned where I was really [TS]

  sad to see it go every other time I've i [TS]

  have that I've either stop having a car [TS]

  or upgraded to a different car every [TS]

  other time I've been kind of ambivalent [TS]

  toward my old one for some reason you [TS]

  know either you know before I was [TS]

  leasing either be like you because it [TS]

  was costing a lot of money because it [TS]

  was breaking down constantly and that's [TS]

  why i was getting a different car or [TS]

  like you know what with my previous [TS]

  three series lease i knew i was [TS]

  upgrading to the m5 so going from a [TS]

  three series 75 a huge jump and I got [TS]

  man so excited this 3-series a little be [TS]

  fine i'm going down five that you know [TS]

  forget it forget the 3-series this time [TS]

  you know the the m5 it's so good and [TS]

  it's so different from where I was going [TS]

  that i was i was almost regretting it [TS]

  was almost like I was almost [TS]

  second-guessing my move like when I was [TS]

  trying man I'm gonna really get this [TS]

  like because you know where I'm going is [TS]

  is different it's not all better it's [TS]

  better in some ways worse than others [TS]

  and at m5 just such a good car that i [TS]

  was really very sad to leave it [TS]

  yeah I'm said that you left behind me I [TS]

  don't blame you it's not like you did [TS]

  anything wrong but I'm sad about it [TS]

  because you know I feel like I bonded [TS]

  with that car I mean it's the only [TS]

  people I've ever driven [TS]

  it's the only have ever driven into [TS]

  countries it's the only car that's ever [TS]

  shuttle shuffled me around Germany it's [TS]

  the only Carver benim in or driven the [TS]

  Nurburgring on and whatever that we we [TS]

  as a as a group of four spent a lot of [TS]

  good times in that car and you guys as a [TS]

  group of two and three spent a lot of [TS]

  good times that cards [TS]

  it's that but that's okay because you [TS]

  bought yourself a Tesla so [TS]

  lively sighs loose-leaf at least myself [TS]

  a Tesla they still own it was the [TS]

  problem at least the am the least the [TS]

  m52 is never really yours [TS]

  yeah exactly i know you felt like it was [TS]

  yours buddy were just leasing it 0 is [TS]

  you're never willing to commit to the m5 [TS]

  you're always like 43 years i'll give [TS]

  you a trial period m5 maybe I like you [TS]

  maybe a walk but but you're probably [TS]

  going back [TS]

  believe me you don't want to own em car [TS]

  older than three years but I mean it [TS]

  depends it like that the thing I'll miss [TS]

  most about the the incarcerated what we [TS]

  just talked about about the mac pro like [TS]

  I mean maybe it's partly where I live [TS]

  but like testicles like the toyota camry [TS]

  aware i live like they're all over the [TS]

  place like but I rarely see and implying [TS]

  things like two in the whole you know [TS]

  extended neighborhood area but there's [TS]

  like a Tesla on every other driveway so [TS]

  Tesla just seems less special because it [TS]

  less rare it's also less of a less of a [TS]

  mac pro in terms of we we make lots of [TS]

  good cars and they're plenty fast but [TS]

  can we take one of our cars and make it [TS]

  you know as good as fast as we possibly [TS]

  can i don't even care what kind of car [TS]

  does the universe big giant four-door [TS]

  sedan we can make that go fast too [TS]

  let's let's work our magic like it's the [TS]

  you know it's the almost pointlessly [TS]

  exotic high-end right and the Tesla [TS]

  especially since you didn't get the [TS]

  point with the exotic high-intensity [TS]

  even if you had it still more it's got [TS]

  other goals because it is a whole new [TS]

  platform a whole new technology and it [TS]

  is necessarily more prozac we're not at [TS]

  the at the stage yet where there can [TS]

  even be an electric car that is a [TS]

  regular streetcar that is as focused on [TS]

  ridiculously excessive performance [TS]

  applied to another car as the most [TS]

  ridiculous AMG Mercedes or the m5 zor [TS]

  any sort of supercar don't think so [TS]

  I feel like you are taking a step up and [TS]

  practicality and a step down in [TS]

  ridiculous [TS]

  automotive access their first of all I [TS]

  think I'd I think I disagree with two [TS]

  big things that you just said number one [TS]

  I would say the model s in its various [TS]

  like supercar configuration but I didn't [TS]

  get as you said like the the P [TS]

  configuration and then the most [TS]

  ludicrous mode i would say those maybe [TS]

  are those kind of extreme configurations [TS]

  and also [TS]

  I have never seen as many other m5's in [TS]

  one neighborhood as I have when I [TS]

  visited your neighborhood bar there's a [TS]

  lot of 5 and there are a couple of [TS]

  m-files but the testicles are everywhere [TS]

  they're just like seriously it is the [TS]

  target a camera above my neighborhood [TS]

  like when I commute all I just see is [TS]

  tesla's been printed before the tesslies [TS]

  i pointed out much to do [TS]

  Casey's upsetedness but the Panamera was [TS]

  the other thing that like Tesla came on [TS]

  this thing on an America where [TS]

  everywhere I was like who's buying these [TS]

  cops they were everywhere [TS]

  we're only talking about happy thoughts [TS]

  this time job no panamera suggestion or [TS]

  something but it's a saying it but it's [TS]

  the same type of thing that the test on [TS]

  the Panamera both like four door cars [TS]

  but shaped trying to be shaped like [TS]

  sporty cars like you know the test light [TS]

  doesn't look like an m5 it is definitely [TS]

  more kind of like I'm a sporty car but i [TS]

  have four doors how can we sort of make [TS]

  that look nice and Tesla has obviously [TS]

  put a chopping the Panamera does of it [TS]

  but they're both doing that type of [TS]

  thing and it's and it's kind of I feel [TS]

  like both of them are very similar to [TS]

  market like midlife crisis cars are you [TS]

  know that's why karmarkar's read write [TS]

  another right where they don't want to [TS]

  feel like they have to get a four-door [TS]

  car but they do have to get a four-door [TS]

  car so they go to the Porsche dealership [TS]

  to get a four-door car and then modern [TS]

  version of that is I have to get a [TS]

  four-door car because they have a family [TS]

  but can I get this super fast electric [TS]

  one that I still feel and get it in red [TS]

  and now I still feel like it you know [TS]

  got a cool car a couple things real [TS]

  quick number one the Tesla is lightyears [TS]

  better looking than the Panamera the [TS]

  Panamera is just hideously ugly number [TS]

  two so I was grabbing the Panamera link [TS]

  for the show notes as we're recording [TS]

  and I landed on the Panamera part model [TS]

  page which I'll put the chat room there [TS]

  are 1 2 3 4 12 they're like what is this [TS]

  14 different models apparent panamera [TS]

  that run from 78,000 $100 to 260 3904 [TS]

  the Panamera exact exclusive series [TS]

  why would you want that with the name of [TS]

  God will pay a quarter-of-a-million [TS]

  dollars from a4a panamera you have the [TS]

  oven shop for a Porsche recently portion [TS]

  measures their option packages and units [TS]

  of hondas toyotas the second [TS]

  like the Porsche options have always [TS]

  been assumed their prices are you know [TS]

  they're expensive right but any portion [TS]

  you take you like I bet I could add like [TS]

  ten thousand dollars and options like no [TS]

  one option is ten eleven twelve thousand [TS]

  dollars if you can add all the options [TS]

  your car something costs 263,000 dollars [TS]

  and you're like what happened i thought [TS]

  i was shopping for $80,000 four-door car [TS]

  and home [TS]

  yeah that Porsche Porsche options i mean [TS]

  i'm just i'm assuming portion options [TS]

  are actually rivaled by like bentleys [TS]

  and rolls but no one ever talks about [TS]

  how much was options cross because when [TS]

  you're shopping for that people don't [TS]

  talk about money anymore but every time [TS]

  I for the past like decade-and-a-half [TS]

  writer you're fortunate there like on [TS]

  Porsches options i don't know what [TS]

  they're thinking but like if you want [TS]

  anything it's thousands thousands of [TS]

  dollars doesn't make any sense [TS]

  there are 24 is that right to know 20 to [TS]

  nine Elevens 22 how how is that a thing [TS]

  people like options i made it like if [TS]

  you make sense a portrait like you you [TS]

  do you want to pay i mean like it's fine [TS]

  you're gonna pay fifteen thousand [TS]

  dollars for the carbon ceramic brakes [TS]

  the do you feel like paying seven [TS]

  thousand dollars for a different [TS]

  headliner in the interior [TS]

  alright will charge you that what [TS]

  whatever dude like how do you feel about [TS]

  special headlights for three thousand [TS]

  dollars yes [TS]

  ok check that box hold it just it adds [TS]

  up really fast right I apologize i [TS]

  derail decided like I'd never looked at [TS]

  buying a portion of that i'm really [TS]

  looking at it now and I'm just flummoxed [TS]

  by how many options you have [TS]

  if you can't buy that dude freakin tuba [TS]

  toothpaste you'll never be able to buy a [TS]

  Porsche let me teach you a valuable [TS]

  lesson about this podcast [TS]

  mmm never apologize for derailing the [TS]

  show haha well i can't i can't trust [TS]

  your judgment on this issue but he [TS]

  listened to top for its it's a total [TS]

  train wreck at the light full train [TS]

  wreck but rain which by the way [TS]

  listening to John try to keep you within [TS]

  the guardrails on that episode was just [TS]

  wonderful it was hysterical [TS]

  I felt I felt like I kept I kept things [TS]

  contained better-than-average it's [TS]

  better than the average show still not [TS]

  well alright so arrives we have totally [TS]

  derailed so tell us about the test i was [TS]

  the pickup experience but what you've [TS]

  only had it for like two days so far [TS]

  yeah well how is it so the pic of [TS]

  experience or any I should just say I [TS]

  mean you know we've talked in the past [TS]

  in [TS]

  neutral and then in the after shows hear [TS]

  about like different different car [TS]

  companies having different dealer [TS]

  experiences and a lot of it just depends [TS]

  on your local dealers but sometimes it [TS]

  does seem like the way the company is [TS]

  set up certain companies have liked [TS]

  better or worse dealers and other [TS]

  attitudes and others but Tesla invented [TS]

  different to different Tesla dealers and [TS]

  talk to a few other two other people on [TS]

  the phone here and there and they've all [TS]

  been awesome like super low pressure i [TS]

  think the salespeople are not [TS]

  commissioned and so I think that [TS]

  contributes a lot to that the easier [TS]

  going nature of of talking to them but [TS]

  overall just really positive experiences [TS]

  dealing with Tesla so far [TS]

  granted i haven't had to like you know [TS]

  get tricky service or anything yet but I [TS]

  know some people who have had Tesla's [TS]

  for for a while and they have all [TS]

  reported very positive things about even [TS]

  the service and stuff like that so so [TS]

  far incredibly positive experiences [TS]

  dealing with them as a company there's [TS]

  no negotiation on the prices which also [TS]

  makes things a little bit nicer and [TS]

  simpler like you literally order your [TS]

  car online that you can call them and [TS]

  you can't you can go into the showroom [TS]

  and you can order it there if you want [TS]

  to but ordering it there is just you [TS]

  using a computer with their problem with [TS]

  the public website on it and you just [TS]

  place the order with them if you want [TS]

  it's perfect it's its release it's [TS]

  refreshingly simple and nice and [TS]

  everybody who seen who works for Tesla [TS]

  who have interacted with seems like they [TS]

  were from California super like you know [TS]

  laid-back pic nice you know trendy yeah [TS]

  it super nice people so very very [TS]

  positive experiences there the pickup [TS]

  was just like any other car pick up [TS]

  where you know you you pick it up he [TS]

  signs papers you transfer the license [TS]

  plate and registration also that did [TS]

  work out [TS]

  yes I got to keep keep my blue license [TS]

  plate my blue white New York plates that [TS]

  the ugly new yellow ones i've been [TS]

  trying I've got this is now the third [TS]

  car this plate will be on but because I [TS]

  refused to trip to upgrade to the yellow [TS]

  ones because they're hideous on every [TS]

  color of car so it's just like any other [TS]

  car pickup you just walk down the stairs [TS]

  and your cars on a rotating platform [TS]

  connected through the floor is just [TS]

  really just like it and then you go [TS]

  outside and you're in a different [TS]

  country and you drive on [TS]

  140 miles an hour so pretty much like [TS]

  every other car pick up exactly like a [TS]

  really carpet yeah but I really listen [TS]

  to that partially because I think [TS]

  underscored said he had just listened to [TS]

  that that that episode of neutral and [TS]

  man I felt so bad for John because you [TS]

  really got kind of browbeat into being [TS]

  on the head with us but got it was a fun [TS]

  episode in a fun trip but anyway yeah [TS]

  yeah so you know that they walked me [TS]

  through like the features of the car and [TS]

  everything which you promptly forgot I i [TS]

  have actually read some of the manual I [TS]

  i will have you no more than five pages [TS]

  in a nose that open the trunk at least i [TS]

  read i think more pages of manual [TS]

  because a lot of the features of the car [TS]

  are not intuitive like for instance like [TS]

  the rules of like when and how it locks [TS]

  and unlocks is actually not obvious [TS]

  that's what I had to look up things like [TS]

  so how do i turn it off if i'm sitting [TS]

  in it like this it's like a lot of [TS]

  things like that that are that are not [TS]

  intuitive anyway and so I i actually [TS]

  have referred the manual few times but [TS]

  so you know going over the car taking it [TS]

  out and everything [TS]

  granted i'm only two days into owning as [TS]

  you said so take all of this with a [TS]

  grain of salt i might change your mind [TS]

  later but at the moment I you know I [TS]

  mentioned how sad I was to give up the [TS]

  m5 but I'm not sad anymore like once i [TS]

  got i was very sad for the two hours [TS]

  between my night when i turn it in and [TS]

  when I picked up with Tesla and I really [TS]

  was worrying like I wonder if I made the [TS]

  wrong decision here [TS]

  really i really was yeah and until I [TS]

  until I started on the Tesla and it [TS]

  reminded me why I went to Tesla in the [TS]

  first place why I decided to make this [TS]

  move never drive a Tesla if you don't [TS]

  intend to possibly buy Wow because it [TS]

  when you drive it really i'm not going [TS]

  to say it's disruptive because that's [TS]

  evidence and abuse term and disruption [TS]

  usually usually is involved with low-end [TS]

  disruption this is definitely not low [TS]

  and disruption at least not yet but it [TS]

  is transformative in the sense that once [TS]

  you drive an all-electric car especially [TS]

  a good one [TS]

  like [TS]

  Tesla but you know even even the lower [TS]

  end all electric cars like the chevy [TS]

  volt and the nissan leaf and stuff like [TS]

  that that are much more affordable even [TS]

  those have this property where several [TS]

  balls on electric sorry the bolton and [TS]

  it doesn't matter the leaf is no anybody [TS]

  buys right people hey so all-electric [TS]

  cars have this property once you drive [TS]

  it [TS]

  it feels so different and in my opinion [TS]

  so much better than driving a gas car [TS]

  it makes gas cars seem like old clunkers [TS]

  and it makes them seem irrelevant to the [TS]

  point where now like now that i know i'm [TS]

  i'm in the electric car mindset and I've [TS]

  and I'm feeling how they feel and how [TS]

  they drive and and you know seeing how [TS]

  they work and the advantages they have [TS]

  there is no gas car on the market that I [TS]

  want you know if if BMW comes out with [TS]

  you know then the next m5 which is [TS]

  probably have all wheel drive and [TS]

  probably coming on a couple years I [TS]

  don't think i'm going to care because I [TS]

  don't want a gas car like once once you [TS]

  get used to the benefits of electric [TS]

  there are still benefits to gas you know [TS]

  along Highway ranges a big one that the [TS]

  electric is just that is not only not [TS]

  there yet but probably will never be [TS]

  there for four maybe aren't maybe our [TS]

  lifetimes or at least a big part of them [TS]

  because of that the rate that better [TS]

  technology improves but my god it is so [TS]

  different it feels acceleration wise [TS]

  like like I i got the 9th ed not the [TS]

  fast crazy fast one that's the p versus [TS]

  I didn't get those I feel like such a [TS]

  douche we've been talking about this [TS]

  kind of these are very expensive cars [TS]

  i'm talking about but I don't know if [TS]

  you if you think I'm actually probably [TS]

  stop listening by now if you haven't [TS]

  stopped now [TS]

  sorry about that but anyway so it feels [TS]

  first of all it feels like i'm driving a [TS]

  train because trains are usually [TS]

  electric and like like I spent a lot of [TS]

  time on trains I can you know commuter [TS]

  rails and subways and everything and the [TS]

  way and you know trains are electric the [TS]

  way they accelerate it it has a certain [TS]

  feel to it [TS]

  electric artillery like like electric [TS]

  trains do like they just like that the [TS]

  torque curve the way they feel off the [TS]

  line with a sound even like [TS]

  it feels like I'm I'm driving this [TS]

  incredibly smooth futuristic awesomely [TS]

  powerful thing in a way that gas cars [TS]

  even very powerful gas cars just can't [TS]

  feel like they they just can't do that [TS]

  even now buying like the the like you [TS]

  know middle-of-the-road configuration of [TS]

  the Tesla it's so ridiculously good and [TS]

  it's so ridiculously fast i'm so glad to [TS]

  get the faster one because the faster [TS]

  one is a big price jump and a big hit to [TS]

  arrange for a difference of speed that [TS]

  not only do I not needed but that i [TS]

  described what I will be left with us as [TS]

  actually unpleasant to me like it was [TS]

  actually too fast and kind of felt like [TS]

  I was being punched in the face when I [TS]

  want to test for that one [TS]

  so this is a really good configuration [TS]

  for me so far and you know I haven't [TS]

  taken a big trip with it yet I haven't [TS]

  put up to like a full supercharger and [TS]

  had to wait 40 minutes to even start my [TS]

  charge you like I'm sure I'm going to [TS]

  have experiences with this car over the [TS]

  next three years that I'm leasing it i'm [TS]

  sure i'm going to have experiences that [TS]

  aren't all roses but the everyday [TS]

  driving around town which is what I do [TS]

  the vast majority of the time is just [TS]

  amazing in it so far it really is great [TS]

  i'm even sold on the touchscreen I don't [TS]

  know about that again [TS]

  ask me again in a few months maybe you [TS]

  know maybe that maybe this will change [TS]

  but so many of so many things like just [TS]

  the way it does things the advancements [TS]

  it has are so nice and the interior [TS]

  quality isn't as good at BWW the the [TS]

  sheet metal isn't as good lucky like the [TS]

  the most of the cars other aspects [TS]

  besides the drivetrain are actually [TS]

  stepped down from what BMW offers and [TS]

  they're hiring configurations [TS]

  I don't care like that's that's how good [TS]

  the drivetrain is like I just don't care [TS]

  about that stuff down and it's it that's [TS]

  why I'm saying this is a truly [TS]

  transformative / disruptive because it [TS]

  makes you ignore the downsides and not [TS]

  care about the deficiencies because the [TS]

  core of it that the drivetrain the feel [TS]

  the just the handling it just feels so [TS]

  good it makes you forgive all the little [TS]

  you know little nitpicks that you might [TS]

  have so what's your favorite thing so [TS]

  far just driving like it's I'm like a [TS]

  Tom being stupid like you know finding [TS]

  reasons to go run stupid local errands [TS]

  like just to get me out of the house of [TS]

  the car again like just it's just it [TS]

  just feels so good it's it's so it's so [TS]

  incredibly smooth and immediate and [TS]

  direct feeling it's just it's just [TS]

  ridiculously good [TS]

  the more time I spend in it the more I [TS]

  like it the more I appreciate it [TS]

  underscore also has a 9 DD if i'm not [TS]

  mistaken and he visited down here I [TS]

  think it's right after Thanksgiving [TS]

  around thanksgiving sometime around then [TS]

  and i drove his car which i think we [TS]

  briefly spoke about on the show actually [TS]

  and it ruined my car immediately [TS]

  Americans ideology there there are [TS]

  things that I don't like about it but [TS]

  I'm sure if i had 1i would suffer [TS]

  through and learn to live with it [TS]

  I didn't care for the touch screen [TS]

  though it did make a lot more sense when [TS]

  I was in the car in seeing all the [TS]

  things i could tweak and configure did [TS]

  make a lot more sense than i thought i [TS]

  would have expected the progenitor the [TS]

  regenerative braking is really peculiar [TS]

  I didn't really like it but I wouldn't [TS]

  say I disliked it either was just very [TS]

  very different in weird [TS]

  well that's also that's an option you [TS]

  can turn down also yeah but i mean at [TS]

  the cost of range of course I'm a little [TS]

  bit but yeah well still the things that [TS]

  that car can do though both performance [TS]

  wise and technology wise are tremendous [TS]

  like underscore was saying if i recall [TS]

  correctly that he had set up his car [TS]

  such that when he pulls up to his house [TS]

  it opens the garage which is a totally [TS]

  apple thing to do right like it has a [TS]

  GPS on it it has a garage door opener on [TS]

  it tell it this is my house this is [TS]

  where I need to use the garage door so [TS]

  just open the damn garage like it's it's [TS]

  such an obvious thing to do that I never [TS]

  thought of until he said oh yeah totally [TS]

  does that for me and I think he said you [TS]

  could even tell it to raise its raise [TS]

  the suspension a little bit [TS]

  when he when he's arriving at the house [TS]

  to give them a little extra room to go [TS]

  over like the curb bird or whatever it [TS]

  is that the limb [TS]

  yeah I'm stupid stuff like that but [TS]

  really smart you know what I mean and [TS]

  it's in stuff like that it was just so [TS]

  impressive and in the fact that it had [TS]

  an app that didn't suck like I haven't [TS]

  been able to use them you can act [TS]

  whatever-it-is app while you it was [TS]

  comparatively less sucky than the BMW [TS]

  app that I used two years ago [TS]

  fortunately there are third-party apps [TS]

  because the biggest reverse-engineer the [TS]

  API that the official app is calling [TS]

  that's totally safe yeah maybe I can't [TS]

  do anything harmful it's like I can't [TS]

  like stop the car or make it go it can [TS]

  just like you know it can like open the [TS]

  sunroof and turn the heat on stuff like [TS]

  that it's like it's like that big of a [TS]

  deal but wow it even like you know [TS]

  simple things like educate the garage [TS]

  door opening and it closes when you [TS]

  leave to like if you when you pull out [TS]

  of the driveway to leave they can close [TS]

  the garage for you and you could when [TS]

  you come back home and opens before they [TS]

  get your right stuff like that it's just [TS]

  really nice i mean and even having the [TS]

  big touchscreen like one of the reasons [TS]

  I'm kind of converting to the big [TS]

  touchscreen now and appreciating it is [TS]

  like it makes certain things possible or [TS]

  better that you wouldn't necessarily [TS]

  expect from a car for instance you know [TS]

  it just shows the google maps view and [TS]

  you can turn on satellite you can turn [TS]

  on traffic overlays and everything [TS]

  you're getting like really you know well [TS]

  reported traffic overlay traffic data I [TS]

  just leave the map on all the time now [TS]

  even i'm doing local errands which is [TS]

  most of my driving because i have [TS]

  multiple routes i can use to get to [TS]

  places on going and I can see the [TS]

  traffic on this giant map screen of [TS]

  where I'm going without having to [TS]

  program a destination I have to make a [TS]

  trip out of it like GPS wise i can just [TS]

  like glance at the screen casually and I [TS]

  can co that Avenue over there is all [TS]

  full of red let me take it away just [TS]

  little stuff like that like there's the [TS]

  screen enables little stuff like that or [TS]

  even just like because it's so tall it [TS]

  has these different modes you can have [TS]

  you can have one appt taking up the [TS]

  whole screen or you can split it and you [TS]

  can have a top and a bottom app and it's [TS]

  such a large screen that you can have [TS]

  like navigation as one of those things [TS]

  and the other one could be at the media [TS]

  player or something else like it [TS]

  it's nice having all of that on one [TS]

  screen whereas the other you know the [TS]

  course i've used they've had these much [TS]

  smaller system screens where you know [TS]

  you kind of have to like switch modes [TS]

  between different things and it's then [TS]

  you gotta wait and yet it's kind of [TS]

  laggy sometimes and and so I mean again [TS]

  the test one is not perfect it isn't as [TS]

  fast as I think it should be for a car [TS]

  of this caliber i think i have to [TS]

  double-check with this I think I hear a [TS]

  hard drive in there are interesting as [TS]

  opposed to an SSD I think I'm hearing [TS]

  like if I'm doing stuff in the car it's [TS]

  parked like I like setting up the music [TS]

  system is part of everything was like [TS]

  dead silent i think that is piping that [TS]

  into make you feel more comfortable [TS]

  that's it yes if a car drives recorded [TS]

  audio there there why they know that the [TS]

  age of the people who buy these things i [TS]

  want to feel like they're in a familiar [TS]

  place with spinning hard [TS]

  yeah but like overall it's it is it is [TS]

  more responsive than the BMW system was [TS]

  and you know it isn't responsible like [TS]

  an iPad but it's it's not that far off [TS]

  and its really really quite nice even [TS]

  like simple things like one little [TS]

  things like that i like when driving it [TS]

  at first of all when you stop it [TS]

  it's dead silent and the whole car is [TS]

  incredibly quiet which I love you come [TS]

  from em car that that's like made [TS]

  artificially louder and it already is [TS]

  pretty loud to begin with [TS]

  that's that's a welcome change to have a [TS]

  quiet car for once [TS]

  also I i think they have a cool he'll [TS]

  hold feature where every time you stop [TS]

  the car fully by default it has a hill [TS]

  hold so it holds the brake for you and [TS]

  shows little H on the dashboard when you [TS]

  so when you know it's happening so you [TS]

  stopped at a traffic light and then you [TS]

  can just take your foot off the brake [TS]

  pedal for the entire time you're waiting [TS]

  that's we [TS]

  that's we [TS]

  and while the whole car is weird but it [TS]

  went first like it seems weird and then [TS]

  you then you start playing with it [TS]

  you're like oh that's really nice [TS]

  actually it's just simple things like [TS]

  it's you know that people always ask you [TS]

  know so far about the autopilot stuff [TS]

  and and the auto drive and the summoning [TS]

  and everything and I i did on autopilot [TS]

  on the test drive [TS]

  I haven't done something or anything [TS]

  else and I'm probably not going to use [TS]

  these things a lot from a little bit [TS]

  scared to use a beta feature to pull my [TS]

  brand new car and out of my very tight [TS]

  garage [TS]

  oh come on i'm probably not going to be [TS]

  doing a lot of the head speaking up you [TS]

  got rid of that friggin m5 in you and I [TS]

  never did a launch control start God's [TS]

  so angry right now I completely forgot [TS]

  about that I I didn't forget about that [TS]

  and I actually considered doing one on [TS]

  the day I turned to be like just that [TS]

  morning but I wouldn't you have because [TS]

  i had three year old tires and it was [TS]

  raining like you know I don't because [TS]

  even even a regular all even a non [TS]

  launch controlled start in that car [TS]

  the rear tires would just spin I [TS]

  remember [TS]

  oh I'm so disappointed right now I'm not [TS]

  even mad I'm just disappointed of course [TS]

  I well that's okay though I'm oh I'm [TS]

  really curious to see how this goes [TS]

  a couple of different times i'm curious [TS]

  to see how this goes [TS]

  the next time you go upstate either to [TS]

  your family or tips family because tips [TS]

  families like right on the ragged edge [TS]

  of your available range right so I the [TS]

  the short answer is I don't know yet [TS]

  I mean by by light the rated range which [TS]

  of course nobody actually achieves [TS]

  there's tons of headroom mm okay [TS]

  by the by the actual range driven it [TS]

  seems as though i will probably have [TS]

  enough rings to get there and back on [TS]

  one charge but we had a lot of headroom [TS]

  I probably want to do that so i will [TS]

  probably be plugging in there they have [TS]

  surprisingly an extra dryer outlet [TS]

  that's what I know most people don't [TS]

  have but they happen to have onto the [TS]

  Upstate and it's crazy up there so they [TS]

  have an extra dryer outlet that is [TS]

  within close distance of where Paul [TS]

  so i'll probably plug in there with an [TS]

  adapter but you know it's fine i mean [TS]

  and and all the rest of the time of my [TS]

  life I never if you do a gas station [TS]

  again that's true but then if you come [TS]

  visit us [TS]

  that's something like a 400-mile drive [TS]

  which you're just not going to be able [TS]

  to do on one charge and so then you're [TS]

  gonna have to do the supercharger dance [TS]

  now to be fair the superchargers started [TS]

  I think on the 95 corridor which is the [TS]

  road that that runs almost directly [TS]

  between you and I so if you're going to [TS]

  choose a place to to test out the [TS]

  superchargers it's a pretty good place [TS]

  to do it because I mean that they have [TS]

  plenty of them but it's still a fairly [TS]

  considerable distance and in long enough [TS]

  they would probably have to stop once if [TS]

  not twice adding and not and not in [TS]

  considerable amount of time to an [TS]

  already like 68 our trip to 10 depending [TS]

  on what time you're going so I'm curious [TS]

  to see if you guys have a recent visit [TS]

  again like I don't know maybe of Top [TS]

  Gear's cover something similar to talk [TS]

  here comes out in the fall i'm curious [TS]

  to see how that trip goes get me too i [TS]

  mean it could be totally fine [TS]

  it could make us think oh you know what [TS]

  we should bring a gas card next time we [TS]

  come down here or yeah i mean every time [TS]

  i drive to your house I regret some part [TS]

  of the drive because there is there is [TS]

  nobody there is no good way to drive to [TS]

  your house a