The Accidental Tech Podcast

169: My Fingers Are Still Moving


  I don't think we let ourselves just be [TS]

  idiots often now don't that we don't I [TS]

  feel like that's our core competency so [TS]

  i was using my iphone today I was [TS]

  sitting at i would guess thirty percent [TS]

  battery life i am aware that you can [TS]

  turn on battery percentage i think that [TS]

  is the mark of a lunatic because all [TS]

  that doesn't stretch me out when it's on [TS]

  I'd rather not know anyway so I was [TS]

  sitting it i would guess about a third [TS]

  battery life and I go to record a video [TS]

  of Declan we were walking around outside [TS]

  and as i'm recording the video they like [TS]

  I it's not that I was framing and I'm [TS]

  actively recording the video all the [TS]

  sudden phone turns off [TS]

  mm okay that in and of itself is [TS]

  unfortunately common but that was weird [TS]

  but ok so i go to turn the phone back on [TS]

  wait that's common well common enough [TS]

  that we're it's I don't want to say [TS]

  functional high ground but it felt like [TS]

  a functional high ground sort of sort of [TS]

  occurrence right like oh that was weird [TS]

  but I'm sure once it reboots itself [TS]

  everything will be fine okay your [TS]

  windows recency is showing like that [TS]

  they're not the headset is not [TS]

  acceptable behavior like the head that [TS]

  is not normal yeah well do before the [TS]

  show we were just talking about how you [TS]

  rebooting your your imac fixed [TS]

  everything but that's neither here nor [TS]

  there [TS]

  yeah I didn't say that was right either [TS]

  so I go to start the phone back up and [TS]

  it tells me no i won't because your [TS]

  battery's dead [TS]

  what you know what I'm talking about [TS]

  like the i will not start until you plug [TS]

  it in [TS]

  yeah ID a little like better the red [TS]

  line and black screen yeah yeah so I'm [TS]

  like that's weird i was just a [TS]

  30-percent so I do the like hold both [TS]

  buttons until it forced restarts itself [TS]

  dance and starts back up and i'm back [TS]

  thirty percent ok that was really weird [TS]

  but I'll roll with it and then I go to [TS]

  record a video again same exact thing [TS]

  happened [TS]

  mm except this time it didn't want to [TS]

  turn itself back on your batteries toast [TS]

  I've heard of this a lot of people about [TS]

  his problem with many different models [TS]

  of phone iphone in the past that the [TS]

  exactly same symptoms you get your [TS]

  battery down to something that's below [TS]

  half but not really really low and then [TS]

  it's just like nope no battery for you [TS]

  and the same thing like sometimes it'll [TS]

  come [TS]

  like oh here i am again twenty percent [TS]

  you got to take that in that's that is a [TS]

  very common symptom and i don't know i [TS]

  don't know what it is it could just be a [TS]

  bad battery just can't maintain the [TS]

  voltage and once it gets below a certain [TS]

  level the phone just like that so much [TS]

  for that but then you bring it back and [TS]

  it's like I can maintain the voltage now [TS]

  I'm not really i can you just gotta [TS]

  bring it [TS]

  don't bother like like some people John [TS]

  Roderick who live with this for like a [TS]

  year or more and accept it as just like [TS]

  this darn phone is like that's like [TS]

  Marco set that is that's not the way [TS]

  it's supposed to work you have to bring [TS]

  that in tell them the symptoms I'm sure [TS]

  they've heard a million times before [TS]

  because this is a common symptom there's [TS]

  one exception though that is also almost [TS]

  exactly the same behavior you get during [TS]

  hot or cold thermal shutdown [TS]

  yeah obviously temperature stuff and I'm [TS]

  assuming it's spring it's like it's not [TS]

  too hot not too cold I i assume you [TS]

  hadn't left in the Sun on the dashboard [TS]

  of your car before using it now we're [TS]

  just going for a walk about a mile and a [TS]

  half walk it was in my jeans pocket [TS]

  there was no i mean it's it's humid out [TS]

  because it's been raining for the last [TS]

  year but uh but no there was nothing [TS]

  environmental that should have cost it [TS]

  what I've done is I've left it plugged [TS]

  in and have been planned to leave it [TS]

  plugged in all night just to see I [TS]

  wouldn't this is before we had this [TS]

  conversation but I thought I well maybe [TS]

  it's just like not calibrated or [TS]

  something like that so i'll just i'll [TS]

  leave it plugged in all night I mean I [TS]

  always leave it plugged in all night [TS]

  long but i'll just i'll be really [TS]

  diligent about leaving a plugged in and [TS]

  we'll see if that for change that but it [TS]

  sounds like I'm making a trip to the [TS]

  genius bar we typical typical windows [TS]

  blame yourself just defragment hurt no [TS]

  update your windows update virus [TS]

  definitions David your fault it's [TS]

  totally your fault but aren't you happy [TS]

  now like everyone if I had something [TS]

  does happen especially on a device that [TS]

  I've had for a while but like oh yes new [TS]

  battery know that your battery's getting [TS]

  old anyway how many cycles have been [TS]

  through I any fresh new battery assuming [TS]

  you're still under warranty [TS]

  well I mean it's a it's a success so [TS]

  yeah I'm still under warranty but it was [TS]

  that also means i gotta go to the genius [TS]

  bar I've got to do the backup dance I've [TS]

  got to convince them that you know this [TS]

  is an actual issue that isn't my fault [TS]

  etc so i guess i'm sure they make sure [TS]

  they are well versed in this exact [TS]

  problem and have a procedure and you're [TS]

  not the first person to tell them it'll [TS]

  be fine [TS]

  I will say though it really went when I [TS]

  first saw this doing thermal shutdown it [TS]

  was on tips phone this past winter when [TS]

  she was trying to take videos of our kid [TS]

  playing in the snow in like didn't like [TS]

  the high twenties early thirties [TS]

  Fahrenheit [TS]

  yeah like and the phone like after after [TS]

  a couple seconds shooting video just [TS]

  kept shutting down on her and like and [TS]

  we thought we'd broken and I was like oh [TS]

  we're bringing in and then like we want [TS]

  you came inside like it the problem [TS]

  could never be reproduced it at room [TS]

  temperature and we were like oh and I [TS]

  looked up and I figured out that's [TS]

  actually expected behavior that i guess [TS]

  all those videos you see an apple [TS]

  commercials like the shot an iphone [TS]

  where people are like on ski vacations I [TS]

  guess they're taking really short shots [TS]

  I let you have to keep the phone you can [TS]

  keep the phone in the pocket that's [TS]

  essentially outdoors like your pockets [TS]

  are you know if you were to if your [TS]

  pocket cold in other words you have to [TS]

  have it in a pocket that sort of the [TS]

  inside of the body heat part of it [TS]

  because that's all the really it's not [TS]

  as if your phone freezes solid within 20 [TS]

  seconds is already frozen when it's in [TS]

  your pocket and you take it out and just [TS]

  goes that you know the little extra bit [TS]

  so you really have to either keep it [TS]

  inside inside your glove or something [TS]

  close to your body so that the phone [TS]

  stays at more or less body at room [TS]

  temperature then you get a long time [TS]

  before it freezes solid into a brick of [TS]

  energy lithium-ion battery are you going [TS]

  to look at those little hand warmer [TS]

  things a little shaky packets but the [TS]

  candles enough that they give off heat [TS]

  you could someone should so a case like [TS]

  that you already got the big lump of the [TS]

  battery case that by the heat case for [TS]

  the winter and that then it will get hot [TS]

  thermal shutdown [TS]

  well it doesn't get that those things [TS]

  are you so the the hand warmer things [TS]

  are the things that people who live in [TS]

  ridiculous climates use right so you [TS]

  guys use that all the time [TS]

  skiers use it all the best as I don't [TS]

  know someone in the tavern remember this [TS]

  before the age of the chemical packets [TS]

  that you put in your pocket that you [TS]

  know you started reaction they will get [TS]

  warm not hot being a warm like that [TS]

  they're not bring your hands because [TS]

  they have lawsuits they had these things [TS]

  that were kinda like metal clamshell [TS]

  things that had inside them essentially [TS]

  burning embers like not open flames but [TS]

  burning ember stick to give off heat [TS]

  sounds like that the most dangerous [TS]

  thing you could possibly imagine [TS]

  and that was the old tech and that was [TS]

  much more so that the new stuff is a [TS]

  considerably a safer and more civilized [TS]

  what was it like was it airtight seal [TS]

  down there or how do i my recollection [TS]

  was that was like a clamshell look more [TS]

  kind of like a compact or a snuffbox or [TS]

  something and that do the little burning [TS]

  ember things you get out by opening and [TS]

  closing it that way but you use it close [TS]

  and just had a metal outside that would [TS]

  radiate the heat weird as it sounds kind [TS]

  of crazy like contraption from your drug [TS]

  days John yeah my drug days right [TS]

  this is the beginning of the add our [TS]

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  this is the best way to get photos [TS]

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  and they're just so good and we always [TS]

  get compliments on our fracture Prince [TS]

  whenever people are at our house [TS]

  I mean I probably I have something like [TS]

  see seven of them around the office [TS]

  right now it's a there they're [TS]

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  be printing photos because these days [TS]

  you know you post photos on facebook or [TS]

  instagram if you can find on Instagram [TS]

  anymore that crazy icon but you post [TS]

  photos on Facebook or Instagram or [TS]

  whatever else and you see them for like [TS]

  a day and then they're just buried in [TS]

  the feed so with fracture you can you [TS]

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  and you can give them as gifts you can [TS]

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  to to a more prominent place in your in [TS]

  your house in your vision in your life [TS]

  I just a great way to remember great [TS]

  photos [TS]

  and together with gifts as well so check [TS]

  it out today go to fracture is [TS]

  run by fine people in gainesville [TS]

  florida everything's hand check the [TS]

  quality by real people [TS]

  so you always get good stuff I've never [TS]

  had one break i've never heard of one [TS]

  breaking during shipping [TS]

  they're really good no worries here i [TS]

  use them recommend them they're awesome [TS]

  fracture code ATP 10 to save ten [TS]

  percent thanks a lot [TS]

  this is the end of the end anonymous is [TS]

  written in and said can you please [TS]

  address the business model behind [TS]

  Tesla's offering to unlock and that's in [TS]

  scare quotes physical features already [TS]

  in the car like battery capacity [TS]

  otherwise lockdown it seems worrisome [TS]

  that in in-app purchase strategies [TS]

  spilling over into hardware not just [TS]

  software updates like autopilot what [TS]

  this is about is the Tesla Model ass the [TS]

  70 kilowatt-hour I couldn't remember [TS]

  what the 70 stood for [TS]

  yes anyway uh for the 70 you can pay [TS]

  3250 dollars to unlock its another five [TS]

  kilowatt hours so you can pay 3250 [TS]

  dollars for someone to flipping left an [TS]

  electronic switch and that I don't know [TS]

  about that man that just seems a little [TS]

  weird to me like on the one side they [TS]

  are indeed making the car better so [TS]

  shouldn't you pay for that but on the [TS]

  other side they make it better in so [TS]

  many other ways and you don't have to [TS]

  pay for that so why is this something [TS]

  that costs money [TS]

  the triggerman Twitter about this was [TS]

  like in that purchase where they should [TS]

  be the app that has the code for the [TS]

  features that are currently locked and [TS]

  by doing that purchase all they do is [TS]

  flip a bit that enable that feature [TS]

  another word you got you just like when [TS]

  you get the car the car comes with extra [TS]

  battery but it's not enable you get this [TS]

  app the app comes with this extra [TS]

  functionality but it's not enabled that [TS]

  was mostly me being snarky because of [TS]

  course the difference is that it doesn't [TS]

  cost money to manufacture the additional [TS]

  functionality like copying bits [TS]

  essentially free whereas someone paid to [TS]

  manufacture and assemble the parts of [TS]

  your car that they're giving to you in a [TS]

  disabled State so you actually are [TS]

  receiving like that's that's part of the [TS]

  the package is a physical good it costs [TS]

  every time they do that they were [TS]

  however it is they put that extra bit of [TS]

  battery and that that's a real physical [TS]

  item it's not just the simple copying of [TS]

  bits [TS]

  now i don't know if this makes us good [TS]

  from a business standpoint in terms that [TS]

  you feel better or worse about Teslas a [TS]

  company in light of this maybe you feel [TS]

  better we select your car magically got [TS]

  better but maybe feel worse than that [TS]

  you understand you paid to manufacture [TS]

  assemble this this stuff and then you [TS]

  give it to me but you intentionally turn [TS]

  it off it's like you're making my car [TS]

  works on purpose and then ransoming at [TS]

  last little bit unless i'm totally [TS]

  misunderstanding what they're actually [TS]

  doing with this big flipping but if it [TS]

  is actually a physical thing that they [TS]

  are paying to create and then giving to [TS]

  you in a shutoff state to try to ransom [TS]

  more money from you later it doesn't [TS]

  give me a particularly good feeling [TS]

  about the company of the car it's [TS]

  definitely a weird thing and yeah i [TS]

  agree that it's probably not a way to [TS]

  win customer satisfaction people will [TS]

  feel ripped off by that like people who [TS]

  own the 70d and then learn that actually [TS]

  you have 75 kilowatt capacity physically [TS]

  but we only ship to 70 and then you if [TS]

  you want you can pay three thousand [TS]

  dollars to unlock it [TS]

  I can totally see why the people who own [TS]

  those seventies are like that's that's [TS]

  kinda that's kind of BSE that's a little [TS]

  bit BSE but it you know Tesla it's it's [TS]

  a weird company a weird stage in its [TS]

  life doing weird things and most of [TS]

  those things are our I think overall for [TS]

  the better with the model s keep in mind [TS]

  the Model S is sold with a pretty [TS]

  healthy profit margin from what I [TS]

  understand and the main reason is to [TS]

  basically fund the company's further [TS]

  development do you think that the model [TS]

  3 because like if you look at what's [TS]

  included in the model s and the starting [TS]

  price of whatever it is like 70,000 [TS]

  whatever whatever starting president [TS]

  Model S's and then you look at the model [TS]

  3 but the starting price of 35,000 and [TS]

  we already know some of the things that [TS]

  will be included it won't be included in [TS]

  that and it seems kind of crazy if you [TS]

  try to estimate roughly how big of a [TS]

  batteries there in the model 3 roughly a [TS]

  bigger battery is there you know and [TS]

  the model s you know how can they [TS]

  possibly cut the cost of the car in half [TS]

  and sell the model 3 with so much of [TS]

  what was also in the model s and the [TS]

  answer is that their costs aren't being [TS]

  cut in half just the Model S has a nice [TS]

  fat profit margin and the model 3 won't [TS]

  so what you're paying for the model s [TS]

  today is not just like cost of the [TS]

  components plus twenty percent you know [TS]

  you're paying a premium for it because [TS]

  it is a brand-new product you're paying [TS]

  kinda like the early adopter premium on [TS]

  it it has high profits now in the long [TS]

  run it will have lower profit margins in [TS]

  all likelihood this competition will [TS]

  come in and push prices down and you [TS]

  know as things mature than the cost will [TS]

  also go down but the role of the Model S [TS]

  is basically to generate lots of profit [TS]

  for Tesla to make the model 3 so from [TS]

  that perspective i can see why they do [TS]

  things like this because you know that [TS]

  that additional battery that you're [TS]

  hauling around additional five kilowatt [TS]

  hour battery did not cost Tesla $3,000 [TS]

  to put in there or even if it did you [TS]

  already paid for it like they sold you a [TS]

  car with that battery in it for the [TS]

  price that you paid you know what I mean [TS]

  like that was like that one of the chat [TS]

  room is saying it's the type of thing [TS]

  where they stopped manufacturing the 70 [TS]

  kilowatt but you bought a 70 yellow want [TS]

  to like well we don't have anymore 70 [TS]

  lots will give you 75 but flip the [TS]

  switch so that when you get it it looks [TS]

  like the 70 that you order like that was [TS]

  that was the arrangement you are 270 [TS]

  comes with 70 kilowatts we give you a [TS]

  car that comes with 17 what everyone [TS]

  should be happy but again from a from a [TS]

  feel good about the company perspective [TS]

  should they should do what Apple does in [TS]

  those cases where like if you have a [TS]

  really old Mac and something goes wrong [TS]

  with it and you're still within warranty [TS]

  or whatever our apple just feels bad [TS]

  they're like well we can't we can't fix [TS]

  this for you we can't replace the part [TS]

  because we don't make that part anymore [TS]

  and we can't give you a new like you [TS]

  know laptop of this kind would anyone [TS]

  make that laptop but here you go here's [TS]

  the current model that laptop what [TS]

  happens all the time [TS]

  an apple and every time it happens it's [TS]

  like a you know a miracle so the people [TS]

  get it like you're getting me not only [TS]

  give me a new laptop [TS]

  you're giving me a new better laptop [TS]

  because you don't make my old crap you [TS]

  want anymore and you're not charging any [TS]

  money for it because it's just like this [TS]

  this laptop is a total write-off it's [TS]

  have too many hardware fairies we can't [TS]

  get a part that makes people love apple [TS]

  so if Tesla that's on the terms that [TS]

  would make people feel bad who bought a [TS]

  17 just got a 70 if you wanna 70d after [TS]

  they stopped manufacturing them and they [TS]

  gave you a 75 and I can I know you order [TS]

  70 but here's seventy-five you would [TS]

  love Tesla you'd be like this is awesome [TS]

  and what 70 people be met because they [TS]

  have their car for a year or whatever [TS]

  like it's not only be mad but it [TS]

  wouldn't be for legendary what is but I [TS]

  know do other mac users get mad like hey [TS]

  that's no fair i had to pay for that [TS]

  computer new you bought an old crappy [TS]

  computer in a broken you got the new one [TS]

  for free and anyone who begrudge people [TS]

  there [TS]

  their good fortune involving you know [TS]

  that the time they chose to purchase at [TS]

  a time there think brokers just [TS]

  ridiculous [TS]

  so anyway I don't think this is as you [TS]

  know tomorrow like this this is a car [TS]

  that you know it costs a lot of money [TS]

  has a big margin the people who are [TS]

  buying it are probably not caring that [TS]

  much about three thousand dollars here [TS]

  and there because this is a very [TS]

  expensive car so in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things maybe doesn't hurt them but they [TS]

  sort of uh they've missed an opportunity [TS]

  to become even more beloved using you [TS]

  know the apple style thinks I'm just [TS]

  like you know surprising delight or [TS]

  whatever not just in your application [TS]

  but also in your policies is one of the [TS]

  reason people like the genius bar i know [TS]

  people have bad experiences with it as [TS]

  well but to go there have a person who [TS]

  you know will take care of your needs [TS]

  and if there's any sort of issue to have [TS]

  the people go that that's like kind of a [TS]

  a a luxury goods experience where if you [TS]

  pay if you really really massively [TS]

  overpay for something [TS]

  the one good thing is like if you have [TS]

  any problem with it like a return [TS]

  anytime or given you an hour will clean [TS]

  it up for you for free or whatever even [TS]

  though you don't massively overpay for [TS]

  apple stuff we just a little bit over [TS]

  pay when you go on with your broken [TS]

  computer and they can't replace it [TS]

  because it's too old and they give you a [TS]

  brand-new model that's just awesome [TS]

  that's like your your loyal for at least [TS]

  another three years before you mad at [TS]

  them again [TS]

  yeah and also keep in mind also like you [TS]

  know even though all the hype right now [TS]

  is about the model 3 for the next like [TS]

  two years possibly more the Model S is [TS]

  still the only test that you can buy or [TS]

  the X i guess but nobody wants that [TS]

  sorry x people so like the the entry [TS]

  price whatever they can make the [TS]

  cheapest model s that is the entry price [TS]

  for Tesla for the next ex years you know [TS]

  23 whatever whatever ends up being [TS]

  before anybody can just go order model 3 [TS]

  and [TS]

  I delivered you know in six weeks [TS]

  whatever so the lower they can make that [TS]

  price the more people they can get into [TS]

  being Tesla customers at all [TS]

  they also though want to preserve those [TS]

  profit margins on the higher spec models [TS]

  because that's funding the rest of the [TS]

  company so it's important for them to [TS]

  get to somehow get the price down enough [TS]

  so they can get a few more people in [TS]

  basically without cannibalizing their [TS]

  higher end sales so they have to do [TS]

  tricks like this where it's like well if [TS]

  we sold it just as a 75 before and it [TS]

  was like 75 for that one or 85 for that [TS]

  for the big one up that was too small [TS]

  difference we would lose many sales [TS]

  maybe they figured so they would they [TS]

  made that 170 even though technically [TS]

  had 75 then there are something like [TS]

  that you know and and then when they [TS]

  raised the other one from 85 to 90 and [TS]

  they raised the other one from 7075 [TS]

  because now you're just keeping the same [TS]

  difference is there's all sorts of [TS]

  reasons why they could have done this [TS]

  that make total sense and even though [TS]

  they might annoy some of the customers [TS]

  who don't think things should work that [TS]

  way you know it might be better than the [TS]

  alternative for the company as a whole [TS]

  you know this isn't unprecedented either [TS]

  like when i first heard about the story [TS]

  few days back my first thought was no [TS]

  it's a little gross but as I was [TS]

  thinking about it while you guys are [TS]

  talking no i paid almost a thousand [TS]

  dollars for a cobb accessport which is a [TS]

  thing I refer to it as a chip [TS]

  colloquially but really it's just a [TS]

  software programmer that you plug into [TS]

  the obd2 port and it will reflash the [TS]

  computer and and give you a little bit [TS]

  more power and makes car little bit [TS]

  faster and then I was taking myself well [TS]

  but that's a little bit different [TS]

  because that's third party and so yeah [TS]

  makes sense that a third party is going [TS]

  to want to sell you something to make [TS]

  your car better but I got thinking about [TS]

  a little more and it occurred to me [TS]

  BMW cells what they call the performance [TS]

  power kit which to my understanding does [TS]

  have a little bit of hardware involved [TS]

  but the majority of the changes are [TS]

  simply reflash just like my cop does so [TS]

  this is a first-party thing and again [TS]

  it's not entirely apples to apples [TS]

  because there is a little bit of [TS]

  hardware but it's a first-party thing [TS]

  that i'm looking on BMWs website right [TS]

  now and it's 2107 dollars so this is not [TS]

  that different in my eyes [TS]

  then what BMW is already doing and [TS]

  presumably other manufacturers as well [TS]

  but I wonder can you pirate a battery [TS]

  hey yeah FML good pirate the bed [TS]

  flipping but never live in the BMW case [TS]

  may be part of the money that you're [TS]

  paying is to offset increase warranty [TS]

  repairs for your engine that is [TS]

  operating slightly outside the intended [TS]

  you know boundaries of whatever you know [TS]

  depending on what it's changing about [TS]

  the engine that could be impacting a [TS]

  reliability or other issues like it so [TS]

  the price is basically everyone paid [TS]

  this price as a blanket insurance policy [TS]

  for the slightly increase odds that [TS]

  you're going to have your valvetrain [TS]

  blow up or whatever i could be but i [TS]

  mean i would hope and assume that these [TS]

  engines are built in such a way that [TS]

  they're tolerances give them enough [TS]

  leeway that a first-party solution would [TS]

  not bump up against any of that now by [TS]

  solution might but there's a reason they [TS]

  sell them where they said they sell that [TS]

  they tried but the car manufacturer [TS]

  trying to do or sell their engines tuned [TS]

  in a way that balances performance with [TS]

  reliability because and economy and [TS]

  emissions right so this is the whole [TS]

  bunch of things in the mix there and [TS]

  they're going for something that makes [TS]

  you know the worst thing you want to [TS]

  happen as you set these cars out there [TS]

  with particular balance of things and it [TS]

  turns out that all the men of coming [TS]

  back in like six years with something [TS]

  really expensive wrong with the end like [TS]

  you don't want that to happen but if [TS]

  people say well I know you can squeeze [TS]

  more horsepower this thing if only you [TS]

  increase the boost on the turbos or you [TS]

  know did change the the timing or you [TS]

  know whatever you want to do one thing [TS]

  and it might have a slight detrimental [TS]

  impact on reliability but if people are [TS]

  going to give us the money will do that [TS]

  then i guess like a big pool to pay for [TS]

  the one guy out of every hundred was [TS]

  engine dies a premature death due to [TS]

  this to anything but you everyone has [TS]

  the same engine as long as the best part [TS]

  of your engine that you're not being [TS]

  allowed to use it's more like I I think [TS]

  of it as a like buying applecare+ or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  fair enough i was gonna say it's like 80 [TS]

  minutes CDR services 74 minutes standard [TS]

  but as you kept going it ended up being [TS]

  nothing like that commits right Adam [TS]

  Bushman rights in to say getting to love [TS]

  something like add bumpers by just by [TS]

  being exposed to it frequently that's [TS]

  called the is that Mary or miri exposure [TS]

  effect i'm shirley mispronouncing that [TS]

  but Emmy re-exposure effect in okc you [TS]

  are the chief pronounced her on the show [TS]

  now great chief summarizer and chief [TS]

  announcer I thought I'd like merely by [TS]

  being exploited exposed it's like the [TS]

  worst name the effect ever the mere [TS]

  exposure effect immediately by the last [TS]

  anyway will link the link the wikipedia [TS]

  article which obviously not i was [TS]

  actually read but you can read it [TS]

  indeed you walk into our homework for us [TS]

  that's how the show works it's [TS]

  accidental I you know that's that one of [TS]

  the jobs of wikipedia is every [TS]

  phenomenon that you think has a name [TS]

  probably does that that's probably a [TS]

  phenomenon Davey idea turns out there's [TS]

  a name for it already [TS]

  what is the name of that phenomenon I [TS]

  bet nobody knows except Merlin I [TS]

  guarantee you he knows doesn't he just [TS]

  looks like we could be like everyone [TS]

  else [TS]

  this is the beginning of the add our [TS]

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  to take pictures of receipts on the go [TS]

  for expense tracking there are so many [TS]

  features here isn't all fit in one and I [TS]

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  ATP thanks a lot [TS]

  this is the end of the ad so the new [TS]

  york times on the on the seventh which [TS]

  was this past saturday as we record [TS]

  released an article podcast surge but [TS]

  producers fear Apple isn't listening and [TS]

  this article it had some problems the [TS]

  quick summary from your summarizer in [TS]

  chief is that Apple supposedly had [TS]

  a handful of big-name podcasters into [TS]

  their campus to talk to apple about what [TS]

  they want from Apple to make their jobs [TS]

  easier and the way this new york times [TS]

  article was written was basically we [TS]

  want all the data about all the things [TS]

  and apple may or may not be giving that [TS]

  to us and that's mildly alarming this is [TS]

  created quite obviously quite a hub in [TS]

  our little circle because most of the [TS]

  things that the New York Times articles [TS]

  talking about about big data about [TS]

  getting access to who listen to what [TS]

  when and when I say Who I mean you know [TS]

  how old is this personal gender are they [TS]

  where do they live how much do they make [TS]

  what they like what they not like [TS]

  etcetera and when they listen to they [TS]

  must know whole thing today only listen [TS]

  to part of it they listen to the [TS]

  beginning skip the middle did they skip [TS]

  the ads to do not skip the ad so they [TS]

  like the answer they not like the ads [TS]

  tell us everything [TS]

  well for those of us who care about our [TS]

  listeners we don't want that we don't we [TS]

  don't need that we don't want that and [TS]

  we hope we never get in the position [TS]

  that we do need that and so this article [TS]

  a lot of problems and Marco you wrote a [TS]

  really really nice post about it I I [TS]

  don't really know what to say that that [TS]

  had that hasn't already been said in [TS]

  either marcos post or or or Federico's [TS]

  but I'm sure there's something to be [TS]

  said so Marco take it away [TS]

  I mean the good thing is all the other [TS]

  stuff that had to be said jason and mike [TS]

  said upgrade this week so i suggest you [TS]

  listen to the bedstead but if you really [TS]

  if you want to stick around here as well [TS]

  listen to us as well there's a few parts [TS]

  here I mean so you mentioned the [TS]

  data-gathering part that the leading [TS]

  podcasters allegedly wanted by the way [TS]

  this whole article is stating a bunch of [TS]

  things as fact like this is definitely [TS]

  how Apple does things now this meeting [TS]

  definitely happened [TS]

  it definitely happened like this with [TS]

  these people in it and so far I have not [TS]

  heard any corroboration to support some [TS]

  of these facts like the specific about [TS]

  the meeting [TS]

  additionally I know firsthand that many [TS]

  of the things in the article stated as [TS]

  fact or imply this fact are wrong or [TS]

  misleading with how with how the system [TS]

  works or [TS]

  you know apples role in it or technical [TS]

  details of how it works so taken with [TS]

  the giant pile assault honestly i would [TS]

  i would say don't even bother reading it [TS]

  if you did read it it reads more like [TS]

  something that maybe somebody on forbes [TS]

  would have written to to be like an anti [TS]

  apple like clickbait piece because it [TS]

  contributes a lot of of of intent and [TS]

  like malice to apple for like what [TS]

  they've been holding back on all these [TS]

  years and stuff like that that is just [TS]

  it misleading investors and then in some [TS]

  cases just outright wrong say it needs [TS]

  to be taken with a lot of with a lot of [TS]

  salt so that being said I think there [TS]

  you can look at at the medium here the [TS]

  podcasting medium the way the way it has [TS]

  worked so far which basically works like [TS]

  RSS readers that happen to play audio [TS]

  files it's basically it like its precise [TS]

  photoshop RSS feeds with mp3's or you're [TS]

  a seasoned the vast majority of mp3s was [TS]

  gonna say that from now on and clients [TS]

  are basically RSS readers and they [TS]

  affect those RSS feeds for everything is [TS]

  described to and when a person is [TS]

  present they download the mp3 file [TS]

  that's better than the liquid which is [TS]

  better than the feed they print then [TS]

  they showed he was an episode where it's [TS]

  playing it's simply playing mp3 it is [TS]

  not like loading pages on the site of [TS]

  the of the podcast provider or anything [TS]

  like that it is not executing javascript [TS]

  on their behalf it is not sending them [TS]

  tracking information they do get the the [TS]

  hit on their server for when you fetch [TS]

  that mp3 so they did so podcasters [TS]

  already have a certain amount of data [TS]

  about their listeners and so the idea [TS]

  that like you know Appling to step in [TS]

  and provide data so that people can have [TS]

  any idea what what size their audiences [TS]

  it's a little exaggerated because we [TS]

  already know how big our audiences it's [TS]

  a little bit approximated but i think [TS]

  you know I think history shows with a [TS]

  lot of this you know data science in in [TS]

  massive quotes I'm just my fingers are [TS]

  just constantly moving during this whole [TS]

  this whole thing constant air quotes [TS]

  just up and down all the like web data [TS]

  stuff is also in precise so you know and [TS]

  is also very easily faked and defrauded [TS]

  all the time and everything so [TS]

  all the problems that apply to what we [TS]

  have now also apply to to you know [TS]

  proper my fingers are still moving big [TS]

  data kind of analytics and and and [TS]

  creepy tracking stuff anyway so we [TS]

  already know how big the audience is to [TS]

  a rough degree where they are to a rough [TS]

  degree and how many of them downloaded [TS]

  show we don't need that level of data [TS]

  integration where you go much beyond [TS]

  this yet and we might in the future in [TS]

  order to get like hi ad rates but right [TS]

  now we don't [TS]

  the reason the web had has had well [TS]

  quote had to my fingers still moving had [TS]

  to do all this creepy data stuff is [TS]

  because web address just plummeted that [TS]

  mean they were never great to begin with [TS]

  and over the years since the web has [TS]

  been a thing I think they just basically [TS]

  always gone down because general like [TS]

  web display ads like ads you see on the [TS]

  side of a new site or increasingly on [TS]

  top of the news that you're trying to [TS]

  read a floating in flying around the new [TS]

  site in the background of the news site [TS]

  and every sidebar button below the [TS]

  content posing as content posing as all [TS]

  these top news stories because we're do [TS]

  tricks the new scientists wanted to [TS]

  learn about britney spears like it [TS]

  the reason it keeps getting so bad on [TS]

  the web is that nobody looks at web ads [TS]

  nobody see it's not that people see them [TS]

  ignore them but people even see them [TS]

  even if you don't have an ad blocker [TS]

  installed you like visually don't see [TS]

  them like heat you like you don't [TS]

  perceive them you you skip over them to [TS]

  the whole banner blindness thing is real [TS]

  there's very little that that web [TS]

  publishers can really do to make a lot [TS]

  of money on those things and and so [TS]

  they've had to do all this crazy [TS]

  tracking stuff just to try to make it [TS]

  slightly more targeted to raise the [TS]

  rates slightly more and then of course [TS]

  there's the rise of all these [TS]

  programmatic ad exchanges which makes [TS]

  everything even worse and even more [TS]

  horrible and even more creepy track but [TS]

  this that's alongside that we need to [TS]

  get any more into summary version [TS]

  basically the web sucks for ads like it [TS]

  is it is a terrible place to advertise [TS]

  it is a terrible place to publish [TS]

  advertisements to try to make money from [TS]

  them [TS]

  additionally as i mentioned before all [TS]

  the massive fraud that goes on like it [TS]

  such a mess it is so it's just bad for [TS]

  everybody because the medium just [TS]

  doesn't work that well for display just [TS]

  it just doesn't work very well [TS]

  simple as that and as everything gets [TS]

  more and more cutthroat and advanced [TS]

  technically and algorithmically [TS]

  generated and everything it's just [TS]

  getting worse and worse hours and it's [TS]

  this kind of no one inside there with [TS]

  the web the web as a place to make money [TS]

  through advertising is really a pretty [TS]

  pretty bad place to be so podcasts on [TS]

  the other hand because these are just [TS]

  mp3 files [TS]

  it's just an audio stream there's [TS]

  basically nothing you can really do to [TS]

  advertise in an audio stream except just [TS]

  insert a an ad that somebody is speaking [TS]

  into the stream and because of lots of [TS]

  reasons there's not a lot of tracking [TS]

  you can do to say like you know did [TS]

  people here that ad with a few [TS]

  exceptions but for the most part nobody [TS]

  you can't really track the people here [TS]

  this day people listen this far on the [TS]

  show like you pretty much can't do it [TS]

  cause like what if somebody's playing it [TS]

  on their ipod didn't even have an [TS]

  internet connection you know like that [TS]

  you don't know that they're still [TS]

  playing the file you downloaded from you [TS]

  and there's no way for that report [TS]

  reported to you [TS]

  what if they're playing it in like some [TS]

  like web in bed or Twitter and Bedwyr [TS]

  like they're just babies can see the mp3 [TS]

  file but they're not like loading a [TS]

  whole app there are they're not loading [TS]

  your whole webpage or something like [TS]

  they're still listening and buy by the [TS]

  wrong metric of download counts they [TS]

  will be counted but that's all you can [TS]

  really get one of the soothing sound of [TS]

  our voices put them to sleep and as they [TS]

  fall asleep and that's why exactly like [TS]

  she should we get paid for those like so [TS]

  it that there's no way to tell whether [TS]

  somebody has listened to a certain point [TS]

  basically unless you control the app and [TS]

  we'll get to that [TS]

  so anyway this to me is like this [TS]

  beautiful system because the web [TS]

  I i love the web and it makes me so sad [TS]

  to see what the web has become over the [TS]

  last five years or so as everything is [TS]

  just gotten so much more cutthroat and [TS]

  driven by automated adtech and [TS]

  algorithmic content generation and it's [TS]

  just and said it's it's just it's just a [TS]

  mess and as a fan of both the web as a [TS]

  medium and also the the [TS]

  openness of blogging and RSS feeds and [TS]

  everything which I still used by the way [TS]

  still use an RSS reader it's not that [TS]

  that world is is losing to Facebook and [TS]

  Twitter and an apple and these these [TS]

  kind of closed ecosystems that makes me [TS]

  very sad and podcasting is still run [TS]

  that way the question basically the the [TS]

  debate here is whether podcasting can [TS]

  still be run that way for a longer time [TS]

  or whether this you know the article [TS]

  kept saying like it's outgrown its roots [TS]

  has it like this podcasting really need [TS]

  to add all this crap to the people's [TS]

  business grow because podcasting is [TS]

  working just fine the way it is [TS]

  we get so so if you talk about like how [TS]

  much you make per listener / / user and [TS]

  people call this the CPM the cost per [TS]

  thousand impressions well however you [TS]

  measure that [TS]

  thanks france by the way for the am so [TS]

  the web [TS]

  I think you're lucky to get I mean [TS]

  what's a good web CPM today like a few [TS]

  dollars maybe at most I mean with [TS]

  podcasting the numbers are lower list of [TS]

  numbers are lower like you know a good [TS]

  website it can get millions of hits a [TS]

  month the top podcast things like this [TS]

  american life like really big podcast [TS]

  might get like a million downloads a [TS]

  month or something in that ballpark I [TS]

  don't have recent numbers on that but [TS]

  that's what I heard like a year or two [TS]

  ago someone that you know a million [TS]

  downloads a month for a podcast will put [TS]

  you in like the top handle a podcast [TS]

  that exists in the world whereas a [TS]

  million hits to a web pages is kinda [TS]

  like lower mid-level trafficker these [TS]

  days like you can get way more than that [TS]

  if you're big site but the podcast can [TS]

  command something like a 22 $60 CPM [TS]

  instead of what the web is getting like [TS]

  you know a dollar or two because pockets [TS]

  advertising is just so much more [TS]

  effective [TS]

  it's not even close it is way more [TS]

  effective and part that's because you [TS]

  have you know people like us at the [TS]

  hosts reading the ads and that makes you [TS]

  pay attention more a big part of it is [TS]

  you're actually hearing them as opposed [TS]

  to the web where you just do not even [TS]

  see the ads at all [TS]

  and not because bad blockers because you [TS]

  actually just ignore them podcast answer [TS]

  so much more effective just because of [TS]

  the medium because of how its heard [TS]

  where it's heard who is saying what [TS]

  they're saying the relationship people [TS]

  have the dedication they have where and [TS]

  how they're listening as opposed to look [TS]

  on the web your kind of like skimming [TS]

  constantly and you can get there as fast [TS]

  as you can [TS]

  a podcast you're probably listening to [TS]

  while doing something else whether it's [TS]

  working driving whatever the case you're [TS]

  less physically engaged in the activity [TS]

  so you're less likely i think just get [TS]

  the ad it's it's just such a different [TS]

  environment that it just happens to work [TS]

  way better for ads so for some reason [TS]

  this handful of big podcasters allegedly [TS]

  met with some people and apple allegedly [TS]

  trying to get them to say well we want [TS]

  we want to basically do like web levels [TS]

  of data tracking and we want Apple to [TS]

  put that in there at because that's what [TS]

  we can have we can really have it done [TS]

  is to put these things in apps it the [TS]

  implication there is because they want [TS]

  their business models to be more like [TS]

  the web and that just seems insane to me [TS]

  because the web is in such shambles and [TS]

  we have it great over here in podcast [TS]

  land they don't know how lucky they are [TS]

  that the web does these data things [TS]

  because it has 24 most sites to get [TS]

  anything at all [TS]

  not because that is the inevitable way [TS]

  forward to quote grow your business [TS]

  podcasting is not new it is not even i [TS]

  would even say it's booming I think it's [TS]

  growing steadily the same way it has for [TS]

  10 years and if you look at like podcast [TS]

  growth it's not a hockey stick curve [TS]

  it's basically a line and everyone's [TS]

  everyone who thinks it's new it's just [TS]

  like it's like to tip the iceberg thing [TS]

  like they were finally put out of the [TS]

  ocean where it's like they think oh my [TS]

  god this is here all of a sudden in [TS]

  reality like no it's been growing the [TS]

  entire time on the oceans didn't see it [TS]

  there that there's basically the debate [TS]

  over whether podcasting needs to change [TS]

  in order to enable quote growth or two [TS]

  mature or something and this what what [TS]

  angered me so much for this article [TS]

  in addition to all the things that got [TS]

  like factually wrong or misleading it [TS]

  basically stated as given as fact that [TS]

  podcasting was outgrowing its roots and [TS]

  needed to change the way it operates to [TS]

  be more like the web [TS]

  I very strongly disagree with that i'm [TS]

  not saying the podcasting should never [TS]

  change but I am saying i don't think it [TS]

  needs to change in this way right now [TS]

  and possibly ever because this is a [TS]

  different medium it works very [TS]

  differently and the idea that a few [TS]

  people most of whom come from the web [TS]

  and ad tech world's think the podcast [TS]

  should work more like the web [TS]

  first of all I find that baffling [TS]

  because I said the web sucks and and [TS]

  second of all I i think that is that is [TS]

  a bad argument it but it doesn't follow [TS]

  like that you can't make that argument [TS]

  without support that showing that [TS]

  somehow podcasting is really suffering [TS]

  without this and is declining and needs [TS]

  this to survive and I see no evidence of [TS]

  that at all in fact i'm doing the [TS]

  opposite i'm seeing podcasting is [TS]

  growing and is doing very well [TS]

  going to the to the apple site like what [TS]

  can Apple do apple is a directory [TS]

  they're the biggest directory and they [TS]

  had this big editorial section where [TS]

  they can promote shows which they do and [TS]

  as far as i know they're the only people [TS]

  who who invest a lot of human effort to [TS]

  actually make editorial podcast pics in [TS]

  lots of different categories every week [TS]

  and around the world i think so like [TS]

  that you know they're already doing a [TS]

  lot of editorial side [TS]

  I don't know what else they could do on [TS]

  the editorial side I think I think like [TS]

  they're doing they're already doing way [TS]

  more than anybody could be expected to [TS]

  do given that they're making a little [TS]

  money off of podcasting I think they're [TS]

  doing a very good job APPL I think [TS]

  editorially I think they're set we [TS]

  should be thankful to do as much as they [TS]

  as they do and then you have the Apple [TS]

  player and this is kind of where it so [TS]

  the a podcast players the most popular [TS]

  podcast playing app the one built and [TS]

  built into iOS I don't know how itunes [TS]

  does anymore the desktop i think it's [TS]

  pretty small probably but but the 1i OS [TS]

  that comes comes with iOS called [TS]

  podcasts from Apple the purple icon that [TS]

  is the most popular pockets on the road [TS]

  has something like sixty percent [TS]

  sixty-seven percent of podcast downloads [TS]

  according to most people and so they're [TS]

  basically pushing up [TS]

  to say the stats we get now are not [TS]

  enough we want you to do two things for [TS]

  us we want you to a give us as much data [TS]

  as you can about the people so tell us [TS]

  like how many downloads into your app [TS]

  actually listen to where they listen you [TS]

  know where they stopped playing episode [TS]

  like what exactly what time stamp down [TS]

  to the second so we can optimize your [TS]

  content and tweak our storytelling [TS]

  abilities and their advertisers can ask [TS]

  how many people actually heard our [TS]

  entire ads they can then I guess not pay [TS]

  us like I get a lot of these things [TS]

  don't make sense when you think them [TS]

  through that I don't know why why [TS]

  because we asking for these things [TS]

  anyway so that's that's part one is that [TS]

  they want Apple to to add all this [TS]

  creepy data tracking to their player app [TS]

  and then to report it to the podcast in [TS]

  some way and once again I think Jason's [TS]

  now on my curly on upgrade this past [TS]

  week I did a very very good job of [TS]

  covering exactly like what the kind of [TS]

  implications of this would be and how [TS]

  like just that the scale of the [TS]

  operation this would entail to even do [TS]

  this if they wanted to and how useful [TS]

  the data would actually be considering [TS]

  that it's not that it like it isn't all [TS]

  listeners its depending on the show [TS]

  somewhere between like probably 20 and [TS]

  seventy percent of listeners so you know [TS]

  that's and it might not be [TS]

  representative sample so it's you know [TS]

  it the quality of the David they would [TS]

  get woody wood itself being questioned [TS]

  even if they got it and in the process [TS]

  then getting it and the the systems [TS]

  involved the implementation of that [TS]

  would be a huge mess not to mention all [TS]

  the ethical and quality issues it would [TS]

  then create the incentives that would [TS]

  create with podcast creation with with [TS]

  these pro podcasters to like structure [TS]

  shows differently so they would boost [TS]

  these numbers and in these little tiny [TS]

  ways that would kind of sacrifice [TS]

  quality or overall flow but how it would [TS]

  give us five percent move this month you [TS]

  know because you can say now that would [TS]

  never happen but look at the web it [TS]

  happens it always happens [TS]

  so you know let's not kid ourselves that [TS]

  would definitely happen so you have this [TS]

  made this massive problematic request of [TS]

  the more data then you also have three [TS]

  the request of podcasters that Apple [TS]

  enable other business models and what [TS]

  they basically mean is enable away for [TS]

  people to pay for our show [TS]

  you know there's there's already ways to [TS]

  pay for podcasts lots of podcast do i [TS]

  know this because overcast doesn't [TS]

  support their feeds and I hear from all [TS]

  their fans everyday but there's already [TS]

  ways to do things like paid feeds [TS]

  members only feeds whether it's [TS]

  password-protected or its hidden URL to [TS]

  support those thanks Jason idea to [TS]

  support please subscribe 26 colors you [TS]

  know the password stuff I don't support [TS]

  and and some a lot of them like that tho [TS]

  members only area or or paid podcast [TS]

  that aren't even distributed as podcast [TS]

  files then feed you you like sign up [TS]

  with their website and you can download [TS]

  the audio files there are lots of ways [TS]

  to do this the biggest way to do this [TS]

  though Apple made in 2008 called the app [TS]

  store this is what most people do if [TS]

  they want to have a paid podcast they [TS]

  release their own app to play their [TS]

  podcast which gives them all the [TS]

  capabilities that the podcasters are [TS]

  asking Apple for allegedly that already [TS]

  exists its existed for eight years [TS]

  it's called the App Store you can make [TS]

  your app you can charge whatever you [TS]

  want for the app you can have in-app [TS]

  purchase in the app you can control the [TS]

  entire player experience and do all the [TS]

  creepy data tracking you want that's [TS]

  already there many podcasts have their [TS]

  own apps [TS]

  this is not a new thing and it works [TS]

  okay i don't know anybody who makes a [TS]

  ton of their of their listenership or [TS]

  money that way but they make some it's [TS]

  fine [TS]

  so you know what if that's the kind of [TS]

  system you want it already exists and [TS]

  take it from a developer i guarantee you [TS]

  that whatever Apple would do with the [TS]

  podcast app store with the podcast or [TS]

  that that everyone's apparently asking [TS]

  for would be worse [TS]

  that would be a worse system than just [TS]

  making your nap [TS]

  you don't want that trust me like either [TS]

  way apples taking 30-percent let's be [TS]

  honest here I mean we know that they're [TS]

  taking at least thirty percent either [TS]

  way you know at least in the app store [TS]

  it's only thirty percent if you if they [TS]

  make their own pocket store because the [TS]

  opportunity to set a new rate might be [TS]

  hired at Apple's services company so you [TS]

  believe me you don't want the head that [TS]

  you understand why they don't want to [TS]

  make their own app like it isn't it [TS]

  obvious like the fragmentation problem [TS]

  that if [TS]

  everyone has their own app like they'd [TS]

  be the advancement of the app store is [TS]

  the one place you go to get all the [TS]

  software instead of having to go to [TS]

  individual developers website that [TS]

  discoverability problems and making [TS]

  people aware and came to fatigue as kind [TS]

  of like we have an apple TV that like [TS]

  that the fatigue of like I don't want to [TS]

  listen to this podcast together this a [TS]

  priority that podcast that app like your [TS]

  kind of like when when books for [TS]

  individual apps back when Apple was [TS]

  allowing that you get one book is an [TS]

  individual app it's just it's a lot of [TS]

  fragmentation and everybody good that [TS]

  it's really hard to get attention from [TS]

  anybody and I can build the sort of [TS]

  level playing clear that you were [TS]

  talking about before is an advantage of [TS]

  saying like Apple you dissemble met this [TS]

  stuff is sort of the baseline within the [TS]

  only podcast player app that matters the [TS]

  built-in appleone as far as these people [TS]

  are concerned allegedly in this in this [TS]

  article here then we wouldn't have to [TS]

  fight for the attention to get our app [TS]

  downloaded and it really is a barrier to [TS]

  people like people don't want to have to [TS]

  download a new app forever it's like [TS]

  having to download a new app for [TS]

  removing your policy is a rather just go [TS]

  to a store and be able to render by the [TS]

  movie and you want to go to 17 different [TS]

  stores and that there are still multiple [TS]

  stores but it was one per pod cast [TS]

  that's bad [TS]

  so I kind of what i'm trying to do [TS]

  reading this article is put myself into [TS]

  perhaps not the headspace of the [TS]

  theoretical people who talk to apple but [TS]

  the headspace of the author of this [TS]

  article because a lot of things this [TS]

  article are not quotes are not and are [TS]

  not like sentiments attributed to people [TS]

  who supposedly met with Apple but rather [TS]

  just stated [TS]

  yeah in what looks like the authors [TS]

  voice presumably informed by the I don't [TS]

  know by accounts of the meeting and I'm [TS]

  trying to let try to figure out like why [TS]

  is it that the author or the people that [TS]

  the author spoke to believe these things [TS]

  about podcasting like what is I know [TS]

  what what what what are we missing visit [TS]

  you I think you've outlined pretty [TS]

  well-liked from our perspective doesn't [TS]

  make any sense but our perspectives and [TS]

  the only perspective and I think the [TS]

  best thing I've come up with is that if [TS]

  you want to if you want to reach a [TS]

  bigger audience like podcasts are the [TS]

  size of they are serial is way bigger [TS]

  than lots of podcasts this american life [TS]

  is way bigger but that kind of barely [TS]

  house because it is built it audience on [TS]

  the radio and not [TS]

  as a podcast right um if you want to go [TS]

  really big with that big audience i [TS]

  means I suppose high production values [TS]

  across more to make shows that good the [TS]

  battery know if that's true but like I'm [TS]

  trying again i'm trying to get in their [TS]

  head in there thinking like I think it's [TS]

  loosely correlated high production [TS]

  values can result in better shows they [TS]

  do sometimes do something better shows [TS]

  but they are they don't always and they [TS]

  aren't always required right but anyway [TS]

  they're going for if you were going for [TS]

  a much bigger audience part of that [TS]

  would also be going for bigger [TS]

  advertiser's advertisers who are used to [TS]

  who would not bother advertising on the [TS]

  numbers the most podcast put up and if [TS]

  you want big advertisers big advertisers [TS]

  have been conditioned by all the crap on [TS]

  the web that you just talked about want [TS]

  this information that is not available [TS]

  from podcast so it's kind of like we [TS]

  want to go really big we want to go mass [TS]

  market and by the way when you go [TS]

  mass-market your CPMs go down because [TS]

  mass-market like we're gonna make a show [TS]

  for everybody everybody is not as [TS]

  valuable as people who are SuperDuper [TS]

  into model trains because it if you have [TS]

  a podcast that you know for people who [TS]

  are SuperDuper into model trains model [TS]

  trains manufacturers will pay a lot for [TS]

  that right [TS]

  whereas if you're gonna have our podcast [TS]

  isn't dubai everyone everyone is not a [TS]

  great demo or like our podcast listen to [TS]

  it but you know like you really the the [TS]

  reason podcast get such icp-ms and the [TS]

  reason i think a lot of tech podcast get [TS]

  icp-ms is it's a it's a narrow [TS]

  self-selecting audience based on the [TS]

  topic and those audiences can be much [TS]

  more valuable than the mass audiences so [TS]

  anyway if you be want to make podcast [TS]

  way bigger and sell to a mass audience [TS]

  and your CPM goes down you really need [TS]

  the tools that will let you get cold to [TS]

  put an advertisement on your thing or [TS]

  you know talk to proctor and gamble or [TS]

  whatever like these really big things [TS]

  that you know by super bowl ads and are [TS]

  you have huge ad budgets and I think [TS]

  that's kind of the chicken egg thing [TS]

  they're trying to go it's like podcast [TS]

  is it looks like it also wasted medium [TS]

  from the perspective of these these that [TS]

  people who are going to want to go for a [TS]

  big audience like I bet many more people [TS]

  would go for any other thing about radio [TS]

  like you have [TS]

  you know every kind of mass advertiser [TS]

  be on the radio because like all this [TS]

  reaches everybody but the everybody [TS]

  model is so different than the current [TS]

  podcasting while I think what they want [TS]

  to happen is please make a world where [TS]

  coca-cola will advertise and here are [TS]

  the ingredients we see that will hook up [TS]

  all the pieces in this chain so that we [TS]

  will have a podcast that plays 250 [TS]

  million people and that really big [TS]

  companies pay for ads or at a tremendous [TS]

  rate and a tremendously mostly p.m. but [TS]

  we'll make it up in volume and now we [TS]

  are big player and we will just squish [TS]

  all the other shows and we'll make [TS]

  cereal look like a little silly NPR [TS]

  fluke i don't have enough cereals NPR [TS]

  sorry pris see over the holidays and [TS]

  that and like and that's so outside our [TS]

  understanding of podcasts and our little [TS]

  text circle and our nerdy podcast and [TS]

  stuff like that I don't necessarily [TS]

  think that that can't and shouldn't [TS]

  exist but like as a goal I kind of see [TS]

  it as well as something to that like [TS]

  imagine if you have the podcast [TS]

  everybody let's do see really seems like [TS]

  it was most people you know like it's [TS]

  just been compared to other podcast it's [TS]

  not as if someone came out with the the [TS]

  equivalent of you know Star Wars 1977 [TS]

  like the movie that everybody and [TS]

  generation saw there's no podcast [TS]

  equivalent to that yet and they could be [TS]

  going for it and I think that's an [TS]

  interesting goal and interesting to [TS]

  aspire to but the way the things they're [TS]

  asking for a are informed by the web and [TS]

  like you said like that's pretty stupid [TS]

  and be like the whole what they're [TS]

  asking Apple to do I don't understand [TS]

  why maybe they haven't been burned [TS]

  enough by this but asking Apple to a [TS]

  building's analytics into your app and [TS]

  make you know it and subscriptions and [TS]

  stuff like that and of course there are [TS]

  so many things that only Apple can do [TS]

  because their platform level things or [TS]

  have to do with the app store and [TS]

  there's only one way to get software on [TS]

  your things through the app store again [TS]

  focusing on iOS but i'm sure they make [TS]

  the same pitch to google it google get [TS]

  on google play thing going on over there [TS]

  but were they successful in lobbying [TS]

  apple for the things they supposedly [TS]

  once they will just let you know that in [TS]

  their wildest dreams what they will have [TS]

  successfully done is created youtube [TS]

  which is terrible for just over a [TS]

  situation where the only reasonable way [TS]

  to make money with video on the web is [TS]

  through YouTube and YouTube controls [TS]

  army [TS]

  music yeah youtube controls everything [TS]

  about it and there's no competition and [TS]

  they can change the terms of the same [TS]

  time what the hell you going to do [TS]

  because it's YouTube like why would you [TS]

  ask me that why would you get you are [TS]

  you know again [TS]

  tapos credit or whatever or capitals [TS]

  apathy or whatever like they're probably [TS]

  not going to do any of this stuff but if [TS]

  they did it would be terrible for [TS]

  everyone involved both the big guys [TS]

  because they would just be putting [TS]

  themselves under the thumb of apple and [TS]

  for the small people who were like no we [TS]

  don't want that we like to be free and [TS]

  open or whatever like so it's a terrible [TS]

  doomsday scenario if they got what they [TS]

  wanted because it would it would just [TS]

  make it dysfunction all the way you [TS]

  talked about for the web and the data [TS]

  and the in ever decreasing CPMs in the [TS]

  Indian the perverse incentives in the [TS]

  fraud and everything like that and you [TS]

  would be shoveling all the power in the [TS]

  market to this one gatekeeper just [TS]

  because you didn't write one right here [TS]

  on happen because you couldn't abide to [TS]

  have simple open system with RSS VHP [TS]

  suggest it wouldn't didn't give you the [TS]

  analytics you like it's it's such a [TS]

  terrible thing to want like and I I kind [TS]

  of see where they're coming from like we [TS]

  want the big breakout hit and we need [TS]

  this data and we need these tools but I [TS]

  feel like you should work that out so [TS]

  hard for me to talk with us even [TS]

  accepting the premise that these things [TS]

  happen in the article weather said it [TS]

  but because they didn't end it did but [TS]

  you should be talking to coca-cola about [TS]

  how they should be ok with you know [TS]

  funding this podcast for celebrities [TS]

  that you think millions and millions of [TS]

  people are going to listen to without [TS]

  the obsessive data that they think they [TS]

  should technically be able to get that [TS]

  coca-cola picture back to the olden days [TS]

  when people feel that little paper forms [TS]

  after they watch television shows and [TS]

  you and you bought you bought [TS]

  advertisement based on that and now [TS]

  we're going to tell you a precise number [TS]

  of downloads and you won't do it because [TS]

  it's just not enough data and you need [TS]

  to know the exact demos and again where [TS]

  they live what their income is and what [TS]

  things that last click on what the last [TS]

  boss on amazon what cookies been [TS]

  tracking them through their facebook [TS]

  clicks for the last it's just I it's [TS]

  it's a somewhat admirable goal to try to [TS]

  make like a podcast breakout hit but i [TS]

  think the supposedly demands of these [TS]

  people and in this article are totally [TS]

  the wrong way to go about it and one [TS]

  tiny passage that highlighted here is to [TS]

  finish up like makes me just question [TS]

  everything about this is again not a [TS]

  quote and not attributed to anything but [TS]

  it's a the articles as promotion within [TS]

  iTunes which is one of the only reliable [TS]

  ways to build an audience particularly [TS]

  for a new show is decidedly decided by [TS]

  small team blah blah promotion within [TS]

  itunes is not not only not one of the [TS]

  only reliable ways to build an audience [TS]

  but probably one of the worst ways to [TS]

  build an audience because it's like it [TS]

  if you could guarantee the you would [TS]

  have been promoted as the number one [TS]

  podcast on itunes for an entire year [TS]

  with that build an audience vs say if [TS]

  you made a podcast that promise to [TS]

  slowly lay out the plot her star wars [TS]

  episode 8 episode 8 entirely unpromoted [TS]

  in itunes podcast would crush your [TS]

  podcast like it's the only reliable way [TS]

  to build and you build an audience by [TS]

  making things that people like and [TS]

  leveraging existing audience is probably [TS]

  the best way to build nice but the only [TS]

  reliable way like i don't know i can't [TS]

  think of a single person who found their [TS]

  favorite podcast because it was promoted [TS]

  on itunes i'm sure they're out there and [TS]

  I'm sure that they'll send us things but [TS]

  like it's just a warped view of the [TS]

  world of podcast listening like that's [TS]

  not how people discovered cereal people [TS]

  did not discover cereal because it was [TS]

  promoted in itunes it was promoted in [TS]

  itunes because people discovered cereal [TS]

  like it's you know like there is a place [TS]

  for editorial or whatever but if you got [TS]

  in your head the itunes is already this [TS]

  this kingmaker gatekeeper i-i-i don't [TS]

  let your your abdicating all of your [TS]

  responsibility to build your own [TS]

  audience by having a good show and doing [TS]

  your own marketing and stuff like that [TS]

  like again [TS]

  editorials important and they do promote [TS]

  shows and it's important like you know [TS]

  for shows to come out of obscurity that [TS]

  that Apple can you put them in new and [TS]

  noteworthy and whatever whatever weird [TS]

  systems are having and it's a fun little [TS]

  thing but really to frame it as the only [TS]

  reliable way to build an audience [TS]

  particularly for a new show that that [TS]

  just does not match with my [TS]

  understanding of the podcast world at [TS]

  all hot especially when it comes to [TS]

  mass-market shows because the mass [TS]

  market is not trolling the itunes [TS]

  podcast directory [TS]

  they don't even know what podcasts are [TS]

  right they only know because they heard [TS]

  about cereal and that they [TS]

  figured out what podcasts are like [TS]

  that's the problem like by treating [TS]

  apples the whole world [TS]

  II know as you very very well said like [TS]

  you're not only like trying to make them [TS]

  the only platform that matters at all [TS]

  i'm trying to increase their share [TS]

  but you're also kind of investing in the [TS]

  sinking ship because that sixty percent [TS]

  market share that they most likely have [TS]

  among listening that goes down every [TS]

  year [TS]

  believe me I've been watching that's [TS]

  decreasing over time as more podcast [TS]

  players sprout up on iOS and as more [TS]

  people finally get around to living on [TS]

  android is where android so far has been [TS]

  very underrepresented in podcast that's [TS]

  according to most big hosted by an [TS]

  ellipse and used to used to enhance [TS]

  numbers every so often used to be [TS]

  something like eight to one in favor of [TS]

  iOS four like everything show that they [TS]

  host which is a lot of shows now enjoys [TS]

  getting higher [TS]

  you have people like google play and [TS]

  Spotify entering the podcast market in [TS]

  possibly big ways mostly have ended up [TS]

  going and I don't like them but they [TS]

  exist so we'll see how that ends up [TS]

  going but you know you have the podcast [TS]

  market being becoming more and more [TS]

  diverse apple's market shares going down [TS]

  and all the sudden these people want to [TS]

  give Apple a reason to lock things down [TS]

  and dominate that's a terrible idea and [TS]

  also like I said just like the idea of [TS]

  relying on them for your for like all of [TS]

  your audience growth is ridiculous like [TS]

  you know and we know from the app store [TS]

  we know like know everyone who relies [TS]

  only on the app store for their [TS]

  promotion we tell them they're doing it [TS]

  wrong we tell them like no you can't [TS]

  even the apps or people will tell you [TS]

  please don't rely on us like and if if [TS]

  you're trying to get featured by the app [TS]

  store and you have no other marketing [TS]

  that actually hurts your chances of [TS]

  being featured they want to feature [TS]

  things that have real marketing plans [TS]

  it's so the idea of trying to like [TS]

  basically make apple do all your work [TS]

  for you to put your podcast as you said [TS]

  John is terrible also getting back to [TS]

  the ad thing for a second which 10 ties [TS]

  into this all everything that the [TS]

  podcasters are asking Apple to do or [TS]

  asking for [TS]

  is basically comes down to we are not [TS]

  making enough / listener from our ads [TS]

  and we would like to add this tracking [TS]

  so that we can make more money it's it's [TS]

  basically like saying the only way for [TS]

  us to grow is to extract more out of the [TS]

  existing listener base remember what i [TS]

  said earlier about the relative size of [TS]

  the audience between podcasts and the [TS]

  web a great podcast might get a few [TS]

  hundred thousand downloads an episode [TS]

  that would put it in like the top [TS]

  probably five or one percent of podcasts [TS]

  on the web that's nothing [TS]

  if you want to grow your business as [TS]

  podcasters the way for growth is to get [TS]

  more people listening to podcasts and [TS]

  then to get more people listening to [TS]

  your podcast that's obvious like I don't [TS]

  understand how anybody can look at the [TS]

  situation now and say [TS]

  situation now and say [TS]

  well we need to grow that to really grow [TS]

  this we're out we're just growing this [TS]

  old model here we really need is add [TS]

  tech lot [TS]

  no you need more people listen to [TS]

  podcasts you know how you do that it's [TS]

  not by making podcasts suck [TS]

  it's not by getting all creepy on people [TS]

  and making I'm putting all this stuff in [TS]

  their face [TS]

  it's not by putting up a paywall sorry [TS]

  grow the audience that's how that that's [TS]

  the way for revenue growth possibly you [TS]

  start doing all this data mining crap [TS]

  when your ads don't work or when you [TS]

  have saturated the audience you need to [TS]

  find new ways to extract more of what [TS]

  you have [TS]

  we are neither of those things are true [TS]

  for podcasting it's the opposite [TS]

  podcasting has tons of room to grow it [TS]

  is growing not as a hockey stick level [TS]

  you know growth but it is steadily [TS]

  growing over time there's tons of [TS]

  potential to grow into especially as we [TS]

  as we have further penetration of [TS]

  bluetooth and cell phones and cars which [TS]

  is where a lot of listening happens and [TS]

  we have all these new like you know [TS]

  cheap home speaker bluetooth devices [TS]

  people to listen more home any of people [TS]

  getting more and more into the habit of [TS]

  listening to things on their smartphones [TS]

  like there is tons of room for growth [TS]

  here and there are so many people who [TS]

  don't listen to podcast now that's where [TS]

  you focus you focus your effort on [TS]

  growing the pool your we're already [TS]

  making great rates on the ads rates that [TS]

  you know I just like when you expand [TS]

  like coca-cola all these things were [TS]

  like oh we have to expand the brand [TS]

  everything ok so right now we have [TS]

  mostly direct-response advertiser's this [TS]

  is things like Squarespace they like [TS]

  things were like you you you sign up for [TS]

  a service or you buy a product and you [TS]

  give them some kind of coupon or [TS]

  discount code or visit a special URL and [TS]

  they track how many people bought their [TS]

  thing through each show which episode [TS]

  URL and that kind of gives them an idea [TS]

  of how many people might have heard the [TS]

  ad and how much they are willing to pay [TS]

  for future ads as a result of how much [TS]

  they're making from their past adds all [TS]

  these hot dogs articles about how much [TS]

  we have to like you know move into brand [TS]

  advertising they're all like well we [TS]

  could keep hearing the same ads from [TS]

  like Squarespace over and over again [TS]

  ever wonder why they're not dumb [TS]

  they're buying them because they work [TS]

  really well and [TS]

  whatever they're spending on the end of [TS]

  each other said is a really nice and [TS]

  helped by CPM whatever they're spending [TS]

  on the ads they're making that back they [TS]

  can see it in direct response [TS]

  conversions and results [TS]

  the reason why we have so many direct [TS]

  response advertisers and why every [TS]

  podcast for the most part does is [TS]

  because they can directly measure the [TS]

  value they see it and they say we want [TS]

  more cuz these ads are working [TS]

  ridiculously well [TS]

  brand advertising things like oh we're [TS]

  gonna focus working plastico can deliver [TS]

  these billboards for the next 10 years [TS]

  and hope that increases our margin [TS]

  slightly brand advertising by definition [TS]

  is almost impossible to measure it [TS]

  basically goes unmeasured whenever he [TS]

  was basically a shot in the dark here [TS]

  people are just hoping that over time by [TS]

  getting their logo and their name out [TS]

  there and associating happy things with [TS]

  their brand or whatever people start [TS]

  recognizing their brand sales will [TS]

  slowly increase as this recognition [TS]

  build the web has developed such [TS]

  incredibly sophisticated and creepy [TS]

  levels of tracking and analytics and [TS]

  behavioral monitoring and surveillance [TS]

  that they can see to a much greater [TS]

  degree what works and what doesn't [TS]

  granddad's don't pay that much on the [TS]

  web because they can see it's not [TS]

  working when you saying you want brand [TS]

  ads what you're really saying is we're [TS]

  gonna sell brand ads because our eyes [TS]

  don't work so we're gonna sell these to [TS]

  you cope because we know you won't [TS]

  really be able to measure well but coke [TS]

  also isn't interested in the small [TS]

  numbers and Squarespace maybe not [TS]

  Squarespace but some other advertisers [TS]

  that are basically are paying to acquire [TS]

  new customers for some kind of [TS]

  subscription plan may not be able to pay [TS]

  like Coco pay more because brand [TS]

  advertising is by definition a we want [TS]

  the big numbers huge shotgun approach [TS]

  that's the only type of advertising to [TS]

  which this sort of general-purpose broad [TS]

  demographic is actually desirable [TS]

  because that's what we're gone for we [TS]

  want everybody to know cause we don't [TS]

  care who you are what you do what you're [TS]

  interested in you need to know about [TS]

  coal and it's awesome [TS]

  they want the big numbers anything that [TS]

  is acquiring customers even something [TS]

  like a fracture whatever like it i don't [TS]

  think that they that they're not gonna [TS]

  they're not gonna keep the same CPM and [TS]

  pay for a show that [TS]

  give a hundred bringing people to [TS]

  bankrupt the company right and they're [TS]

  not interested they don't they're not [TS]

  interested in spraying there I'd like [TS]

  they'd be overpaying because only a [TS]

  small fraction those people actually [TS]

  interested in signing up would be much [TS]

  better to go on a podcast where much [TS]

  higher percentage of the people listen [TS]

  are into digital photography and making [TS]

  principal whatever you know so I I feel [TS]

  like they want to get those big [TS]

  advertisers because you know the the [TS]

  number on the check is going to be [TS]

  really big and the only people who are [TS]

  going to write that check our people are [TS]

  doing brand advertising and that's the [TS]

  way you get again you know if you want [TS]

  to get a new podcast that that has 200 [TS]

  million downloads for every episode i [TS]

  think brand advertising is your only [TS]

  your only path to that and so they [TS]

  they're trying to connect the dots to [TS]

  make that meant by the way like I agree [TS]

  that the the way you would get a big [TS]

  podcast like that as you have to get [TS]

  more people to the podcast but the best [TS]

  way to do that is to keep podcast like [TS]

  the web the reason everybody can and did [TS]

  eventually come to use the web is [TS]

  because it wasn't controlled by [TS]

  Microsoft or Yahoo or whoever else like [TS]

  it was a thing that anyone can implement [TS]

  the web browser anyone can make a [TS]

  website and no one company owns and [TS]

  controls it [TS]

  that's what let it spread everywhere if [TS]

  you try to make apple the king of [TS]

  podcast or Android the king of podcasts [TS]

  or whatever you're narrowing the number [TS]

  of people who can listen to podcast [TS]

  especially if you pick somebody who has [TS]

  a platform because again it's a you took [TS]

  iOS or Android one of them became the [TS]

  only thing then podcasting that matter [TS]

  you're cutting off half of the market [TS]

  right there [TS]

  you want everybody to be able to listen [TS]

  to podcast really easily on no matter [TS]

  what device they have the whatever weird [TS]

  thing they buy in their house or have on [TS]

  their person or in their car or wherever [TS]

  you want everybody listen to podcasts [TS]

  like everybody can go to your website [TS]

  the reason websites have huge amount of [TS]

  traffic is because everybody can go to [TS]

  websites that you doesn't you don't have [TS]

  to have a special kind of computer or [TS]

  special operating system or special [TS]

  application or whatever essentially [TS]

  every platform has some way to browse [TS]

  the web and we're at that point with [TS]

  podcast was just RSS anybody can make a [TS]

  player for it for any applicant for any [TS]

  type of thing [TS]

  any move that big podcasts would do in [TS]

  the hopes of getting like big brand [TS]

  advertising or making a big podcast that [TS]

  tried to make podcasting more more [TS]

  narrow [TS]

  in that way to shoot themselves in the [TS]

  foot because the you know those people [TS]

  are out there you want to make you want [TS]

  to make them be able to listen to [TS]

  podcast no matter where they are what [TS]

  they're doing [TS]

  do not make podcasting tied to a [TS]

  particular store particular application [TS]

  or anything like that we so dumb [TS]

  this is the beginning of the ad we are [TS]

  also sponsored this week by backblaze go [TS]

  to backblaze dot-com / ATP for unlimited [TS]

  on throttle native online backup for mac [TS]

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  today let me tell you why you need [TS]

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  there's so many things that can happen [TS]

  to any backups you keep locally left [TS]

  floods power church fire online backup [TS]

  is a great insurance policy against this [TS]

  kind of risk and it's really convenient [TS]

  to so for instance you can do things [TS]

  like oh you know what I forgot this one [TS]

  spreadsheet is working on let me log in [TS]

  the back was pulled off their will on my [TS]

  trip and you can get it on your phone [TS]

  your tablet or your laptop it's great i [TS]

  used for that a lot [TS]

  very very nice i have used many online [TS]

  backup services back places the 1i stick [TS]

  with I was a customer of theirs before [TS]

  they were sponsor it is so great we have [TS]

  combined something like 5 45 terabytes [TS]

  of data backed up to back plays because [TS]

  unlimited five bucks per month per [TS]

  computer and we have we have like five [TS]

  terabytes in there so far it is crazy [TS]

  how good backblaze is and in my [TS]

  experience how much better it is in the [TS]

  competition that place is great you can [TS]

  do restores either on the web or even if [TS]

  you want to have the mail you a hard [TS]

  drive you can do that they will [TS]

  overnight you a hard drive all your data [TS]

  on if you don't wanna wait for a big [TS]

  download and if you return one of those [TS]

  drives by mail within 30 days to get a [TS]

  refund for the dr see it's basically a [TS]

  free store with a male hard drive which [TS]

  is really great [TS]

  they already have over 200 petabytes of [TS]

  data stored from for their customers [TS]

  they restored over 10 billion files and [TS]

  this is a great insurance policy and you [TS]

  know I online backup because you know [TS]

  you have this a little bit additional [TS]

  overhead of restoring and I still do [TS]

  recommend having a local backup [TS]

  something like time machine or a [TS]

  super-duper clone or something like that [TS]

  but having back plays as well for that [TS]

  the just in case and the convenience of [TS]

  the remote access i do recommend that [TS]

  and I do it myself and it's [TS]

  fantastic so check out there is no [TS]

  gimmicks there's no charges five bucks [TS]

  per month per computer for unlimited [TS]

  under throttled off-site online backup [TS]

  go to / ATP and you'll get [TS]

  a free 15-day trial thanks a lot of back [TS]

  plays this is the end of the end so we [TS]

  talked about an episode or two ago how I [TS]

  felt like it's been trendy to dislike [TS]

  the apple watch well it's been trendy to [TS]

  really really really freaking love the [TS]

  Amazon echo i do not have one [TS]

  I don't I don't know that I've ever yet [TS]

  I mean sure probably I've never seen one [TS]

  in person to my recollection but [TS]

  everyone that I know swears by it loves [TS]

  it cetera and so it seems like [TS]

  everyone's getting really infatuated [TS]

  with voice-based control and the people [TS]

  who did [TS]

  serie which was the the you know that [TS]

  software was eventually brought up by [TS]

  Apple and and i believe the company was [TS]

  as well so a lot of the x-series people [TS]

  have gone on to create a live which is [TS]

  kind of the spiritual successor to Siri [TS]

  and they demoed it on monday now I [TS]

  didn't have the time to watch the video [TS]

  but my understanding was this was [TS]

  something pretty darn impressive [TS]

  impressive if you don't think about it [TS]

  too much I guess [TS]

  hey what do you say that oh I have hound [TS]

  I seem that the the things I don't maybe [TS]

  maybe it only bothers people like me but [TS]

  on the flip side but I think none of [TS]

  these things are up to the point where [TS]

  they pass the regular person thresholds [TS]

  of of magic because as we discussed many [TS]

  times in the past with Syria the problem [TS]

  with Syrian things like that is you'll [TS]

  see when you have any kid you serious [TS]

  five seconds people immediately jump to [TS]

  all this is a little person in my [TS]

  computer but obviously it's not and as [TS]

  soon as they discover the very real and [TS]

  very close limits of any of these things [TS]

  though it breaks the illusion it's like [TS]

  oh i thought this was like a little [TS]

  person on my computer I could talk to [TS]

  instead of just crappy program that's [TS]

  like basically boils down to like [TS]

  playing a text adventure game where you [TS]

  have to learn the syntax and what you [TS]

  can say what you can't say and it's [TS]

  disappointing disappointing people know [TS]

  they kind of put in a bin with I thought [TS]

  it was going to be [TS]

  this magical thing where I can talk to a [TS]

  person in my phone really it's just like [TS]

  the voice version of the command line [TS]

  where I have to learn the things that it [TS]

  can do first of all I have to learn the [TS]

  ways i can say the things that it can do [TS]

  and granted there are many ways that you [TS]

  can say it may be more than the average [TS]

  sex adventure but probably about the [TS]

  same as in any good text adventure and [TS]

  the new demo is like showing off context [TS]

  like what kinda remembers last thing I [TS]

  said to it so I can refer back to it [TS]

  using you know if I as long as I use the [TS]

  right words and their the it will [TS]

  understand what I'm talking about and [TS]

  build on my past conversations and it's [TS]

  like I'm having a conversation if you [TS]

  see a demo with the preset script it is [TS]

  it seems to be very impressive until you [TS]

  realize there is only a very small [TS]

  number of things that you can ask about [TS]

  and those things aren't always [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  do you like it's because you want to ask [TS]

  about facts that you can put a wall from [TS]

  Alfre or uh things having to do with the [TS]

  weather or date and time or unit [TS]

  conversions then you can have this [TS]

  amazing but extremely boring [TS]

  conversation about stuff that you don't [TS]

  really care about but if you really want [TS]

  to know something more complicated [TS]

  you better hope that's within the [TS]

  problem and i'm not saying that these [TS]

  are bad products i think they're amazing [TS]

  we need to keep advancing on some it's [TS]

  great but I get like i said as soon as [TS]

  you have a voice talking to you or they [TS]

  can understand what you're saying people [TS]

  immediately jump to this is how 9000 or [TS]

  like it it's a little person but it's [TS]

  totally and all the person it's so far [TS]

  from that that there's always the [TS]

  inevitable let down so as we continue to [TS]

  march their progress there I'm you know [TS]

  I think that's good but this this slight [TS]

  diversion with Eve and river however you [TS]

  want to say and all those other ones [TS]

  bothers me as the type of person who [TS]

  like reads the wire cutter or Marcus [TS]

  headphones reviews or markers lightbulb [TS]

  reviews or anything like that and that [TS]

  the the very boldly stated business [TS]

  model of these companies is will make [TS]

  deals with other companies so you can [TS]

  say you know have a piece of delivered [TS]

  to my house at 5pm and also send flowers [TS]

  to my mom for Mother's Day you like wow [TS]

  what an amazing demo it's like having a [TS]

  personal assistant but you don't get to [TS]

  pick what pizza it is or what company [TS]

  sends the flowers the company they that [TS]

  makes the product that you're talking to [TS]

  does deals with Domino [TS]

  and proflowers and that's what gets sent [TS]

  not because those are the best flowers [TS]

  or because your assistant knows the best [TS]

  flowers to get for your mom or the kind [TS]

  of pieces that you like but because [TS]

  these are the deals the company whose [TS]

  voice agent that you're talking to me [TS]

  you know made partnerships with and so [TS]

  their incentives are all screwed up [TS]

  their incentives of the supposed [TS]

  personal assistant is not to help you [TS]

  get the things that you want in your [TS]

  life it's to dutifully follow through on [TS]

  the business deals that the companies [TS]

  made and all these companies are looking [TS]

  for we make this thing so sticky that [TS]

  people love talking to it and just like [TS]

  rely on it as part of their life then we [TS]

  can charge people a lot of money to you [TS]

  know like the same way that Google in [TS]

  charge money for service we got [TS]

  everybody typing into our searchbox now [TS]

  all of a sudden you buy you buy [TS]

  advertising keywords or search keywords [TS]

  for us it's very bad with everybody [TS]

  there's all the pizza ordering then we [TS]

  can charge whatever pizza company a lot [TS]

  of mind as I did you one of the pizza [TS]

  Steve Pizza comedy films pizza request [TS]

  but you know obviously people like me [TS]

  and I think a lot of people kind of care [TS]

  where their pizza comes from maybe they [TS]

  don't care so much about where the [TS]

  flowers come from but that the model [TS]

  that that they should be presenting is [TS]

  here is artificially intelligent agent [TS]

  or whatever the agents move good [TS]

  nineties apple thing that knowledge [TS]

  navigator can help your life it's [TS]

  supposed to be helping me it's supposed [TS]

  to be like I wanted to do things that [TS]

  you know if it's going to save me work i [TS]

  would go and figure out what's the best [TS]

  dishwasher is and what the comparative [TS]

  features are and stuff like that or you [TS]

  know i would if i move into a new area I [TS]

  would you know troll reviews to try to [TS]

  find out where two people like you know [TS]

  that the best pizzeria you know like [TS]

  ratings are like I wanted to figure out [TS]

  what I want in my life [TS]

  what my needs are and follow through on [TS]

  that but I don't know if there's money [TS]

  to be made in that because we're not [TS]

  willing to pay for that service so [TS]

  someone's gotta pay and the people who [TS]

  are paying his dominoes and you're gonna [TS]

  get a stupid domino's pizza so you get [TS]

  what you deserve you right and it's just [TS]

  it's it's misaligned incentives but I [TS]

  don't know the way out of it because [TS]

  align incentives would be you pay me [TS]

  five dollars a month for the privilege [TS]

  of using a series of even know who wants [TS]

  to do that either because they're not [TS]

  good enough for five dollars a month [TS]

  it's like now I'll just do the web [TS]

  search myself well just go to the wire [TS]

  cutter myself right so I don't know how [TS]

  you get you find your way out of this it [TS]

  could be i don't i don't know [TS]

  it could be that most people are fine [TS]

  with that they're like I don't really [TS]

  want to know or care what deals you make [TS]

  behind the scenes as long as somebody [TS]

  comes to pick up pick up my package [TS]

  I don't care what they ship it by or [TS]

  anything like just they don't they're [TS]

  not as picky the not reading reviews [TS]

  about your lightbulbs right there just [TS]

  like whatever [TS]

  it's just convenient for me to be able [TS]

  to do this and I don't really care what [TS]

  company or product is involved and I [TS]

  don't care what deals are made behind [TS]

  the scenes and I don't care that my [TS]

  needs aren't the most primary thing is a [TS]

  service like a free it's built into my [TS]

  phone or yelled into the air and Amazon [TS]

  echo does it I don't care that all the [TS]

  products are filled through amazon or [TS]

  you know like it's like pushing the [TS]

  buttons of paper towels [TS]

  you know you get the pic was a mother [TS]

  has a wide right but I don't care they [TS]

  all come from amazon maybe those people [TS]

  are fine with that but for me personally [TS]

  I don't like it and i also think that [TS]

  the misaligned incentives will just [TS]

  become a larger and larger problem until [TS]

  unless these services we can actually [TS]

  become so good that people are willing [TS]

  to pay for them because once you pay [TS]

  five dollars a month to have a personal [TS]

  assistant you could just shout orders to [TS]

  and we do stuff and was not actually a [TS]

  person you didn't have to like care [TS]

  about their feelings and well-being or [TS]

  anything like that's the dream of an [TS]

  artificial intelligent personal [TS]

  assistant for every movie about the [TS]

  future regions yell things into the air [TS]

  and things get done and what you love an [TS]

  assistant learned more about you about [TS]

  what you like and what you dislike and [TS]

  did the research for you and [TS]

  collaborated with other agents and you [TS]

  know just sort of asked your reaction to [TS]

  the meal you're just eating and instead [TS]

  of you having to put a star right like [TS]

  that's the magical future we think about [TS]

  it I think everyone's going to pay for [TS]

  that because paying for an actual [TS]

  personal systems and do all that stuff [TS]

  is really expensive five dollars a month [TS]

  looks like a bargain but we're not there [TS]

  yet the process just aren't that good so [TS]

  in the meantime dominoes will be paying [TS]

  them to deliver you execrable piece of [TS]

  your house I love that like you that [TS]

  your dream scenario here is that you [TS]

  that you can basically have a virtual [TS]

  person who is totally basically your [TS]

  slave and you can be a jerk to it's not [TS]

  actually a person just a computer but [TS]

  you don't be a jerk to but you also [TS]

  don't have to like worry about like you [TS]

  know they don't don't sleep don't eat [TS]

  don't get annoyed when you're frustrated [TS]

  don't get in order to yell but like [TS]

  that's why we use computers because we [TS]

  don't have to have this constant like [TS]

  we're not but we're not trying to [TS]

  emotionally support our computers most [TS]

  of the time [TS]

  we just want them to do what we tell [TS]

  them to do when we do it is their [TS]

  machines and they're not people right [TS]

  and that's the dream of having the [TS]

  computers you know just think it's not [TS]

  as a personal assistant but rather think [TS]

  of it as like the using using a computer [TS]

  without having to sit in front of a [TS]

  computer and click on things are [TS]

  touchscreen or type things in just [TS]

  talking to the air and then somewhere [TS]

  else the computer is doing your thing [TS]

  and and the whole machine learning angle [TS]

  like the same way a personal assistant [TS]

  would learn your preferences and [TS]

  everything that's what computers are [TS]

  great lots of netflix is greater by [TS]

  seeing what we watch and we have to help [TS]

  with a silly way of hitting stars and [TS]

  stuff but eventually netflix it's good [TS]

  to think i think you will like this [TS]

  movie based on movies you've seen in the [TS]

  past and have like it's incredibly [TS]

  primitive compared to what we could do [TS]

  if we had a conversational long-term [TS]

  relationship with a you know a [TS]

  voice-controlled thing that was on our [TS]

  side and was entirely made to try to [TS]

  make our lives better but again that [TS]

  there's no there's no business model [TS]

  that the textile isn't quite there but i [TS]

  feel like i can get there eventually and [TS]

  once we do [TS]

  someone is going to get five dollars a [TS]

  month from hell of a lot of people when [TS]

  that becomes good enough [TS]

  well but it doesn't have to be that it's [TS]

  five dollars a month I mean it could be [TS]

  that this future Syria or what have you [TS]

  it takes a cut of whatever it [TS]

  facilitates a sale for so but that's a [TS]

  distance it hasn't sent revised to make [TS]

  deals with the put the highest bidder [TS]

  who makes crappy pizza irregular [TS]

  heartbeats a problem for perhaps the [TS]

  first of all domino's pizza is not [TS]

  crappy second of all my god it's so bad [TS]

  what are you talking about her job [TS]

  yeah I'm with John sorry Casey that's [TS]

  that's all you'll excuse us oh well [TS]

  you're way too snooty anyway the point [TS]

  is that II why couldn't we have a [TS]

  hypothetical conversation where I say [TS]

  see that like a pizza please [TS]

  sure where would you like it from papa [TS]

  johns or dominoes or what having [TS]

  presumably would have to be some [TS]

  national chain so I'm not it's not going [TS]

  to happen but then how do you get paid [TS]

  how does that service get paid you think [TS]

  it's just taking a cut of that because [TS]

  they were really kind of like Grandpop [TS]

  or whatever like they have to kind of [TS]

  opt-in the money's gotta come from [TS]

  somewhere because unless you want to pay [TS]

  extra for that pizza and like have this [TS]

  you know series surcharge of experts [TS]

  group of so freaking expensive like this [TS]

  lots of services that kind of do a small [TS]

  portion of what we would imagine beaver [TS]

  serie doing but all of them the [TS]

  incentive is this is great if you have [TS]

  money to burn and you can't be bothered [TS]

  to go someplace and you don't want your [TS]

  food being cold by the time it gets here [TS]

  you don't mind waiting a long time after [TS]

  time doesn't work like this there's so [TS]

  many caveat but the the money is a big [TS]

  deterrent five dollars a month for the [TS]

  blanket service of essentially just [TS]

  connecting the dots the things that you [TS]

  could do themselves that works [TS]

  financially if you have enough people do [TS]

  it as does dominoes being the exclusive [TS]

  will bring you a crappy pizza provider [TS]

  but I feel like the percentage of [TS]

  everything is just back to the group [TS]

  model and its yeah that's that has [TS]

  proven to be good for you know in my day [TS]

  we'd set ups but like be good for people [TS]

  who with high paying jobs and not a lot [TS]

  of time and and and more money my money [TS]

  is less important to them than their [TS]

  time and so they do that and even those [TS]

  things you kind of like yeah sometimes [TS]

  that just it's more worth of you to go [TS]

  there yourself another thing I don't [TS]

  know everyone needs try to would any of [TS]

  us would anyone order pizza in that way [TS]

  even if you would like to help if you [TS]

  could tell the store that but it charge [TS]

  you twenty percent on top of that would [TS]

  you order pizza that way I mean it was [TS]

  in a position where I didn't want to sit [TS]

  down at a computer or an ipad and iphone [TS]

  and I just wanted to within 30 seconds [TS]

  say hey see get me over i forgot i can't [TS]

  say that I'm sorry wants to it might be [TS]

  fit huh yeah what was that upgrade a [TS]

  hotel huh [TS]

  thank you i want to say aloha a hotel [TS]

  finally get me outta here get me a pizza [TS]

  a large pepperoni no pineapple pizza [TS]

  from dominos delivered to my house your [TS]

  bad taste continues like you're in favor [TS]

  of this bolt serie pepperoni and [TS]

  pineapple [TS]

  I all have not tried every and pineapple [TS]

  yet but i do like pineapple and ham [TS]

  I and I don't get that a lot of New [TS]

  Yorkers don't really do it here because [TS]

  it's not canonical John but but i do [TS]

  enjoy that combo when I can get it but [TS]

  yeah I normally I mean I like pepperoni [TS]

  and pineapple so you know there was a [TS]

  ham and pineapple discussion but i'm not [TS]

  sure if it's on a podcast that has yet [TS]

  to be released did you hear me talk [TS]

  about Hawaiian pizza on a podcast if not [TS]

  i haven't been released so I don't spoil [TS]

  it I did hear you talk about it i forget [TS]

  which shows it was on [TS]

  yeah same here it might even when you [TS]

  get an upgraded you do that recently [TS]

  right yeah maybe that was it but anyway [TS]

  uh yeah I don't wanna get into it is so [TS]

  the point is the point is the point is [TS]

  casey has terrible taste in pizza so his [TS]

  answer to this question is irrelevant or [TS]

  whatever if you see you Marco and john / [TS]

  you switch the hamburgers if you need to [TS]

  know because then I'm gonna tell you I [TS]

  think Wendy's is just fine then you [TS]

  gotta bust my balls about that too and [TS]

  whatever like this have a barbecue [TS]

  oh it would you get from dallas BBQ [TS]

  because it doesn't matter [TS]

  oh really well barbeques barbeque I mean [TS]

  just nostalgia barbecues fine but for [TS]

  all these things like this you know if [TS]

  the money is going to become taking your [TS]

  cut somebody's gotta come from somewhere [TS]

  so it's got to be a surcharge right [TS]

  because I unless you is you have to have [TS]

  deals if you're going to take a cut like [TS]

  the price remains the same but they [TS]

  caught us in you have to have that deals [TS]

  for that if you don't then you just have [TS]

  to add a surcharge because then you [TS]

  don't need deals on either end but the [TS]

  surcharges usually pretty significant [TS]

  and that's in addition to whatever the [TS]

  additional things that charging you to [TS]

  deliver it plus tip and all that other [TS]

  stuff that's the thing exactly though [TS]

  because the delivery surcharge is a [TS]

  surcharge you could if you wanted to get [TS]

  in your car or ride your bike or walk or [TS]

  what have you and go fetch your pizza [TS]

  but sometimes you just want the [TS]

  convenience of this move me old [TS]

  magically showing up at your doorstep [TS]

  I personally cannot imagine a time where [TS]

  i would want to say hey uh why telephone [TS]

  get me a Domino's large pizza but there [TS]

  are certainly people in the world that [TS]

  may be willing to pay a dollar or two or [TS]

  whatever the case may be to alway [TS]

  telephone themselves a pizza [TS]

  I mean they're dominoes let you order [TS]

  pizza with emoji by some mechanism never [TS]

  tried so I would imagine that there are [TS]

  people that are doing that 20 wonder why [TS]

  dominance has to make it so easy to [TS]

  order pizza [TS]

  you don't find anything you want to [TS]

  believe dominoes as gross that's fine [TS]

  all i know is what you know just listen [TS]

  to the forthcoming episode of analog [TS]

  where we probably won't cut the [TS]

  discussion about people that are too [TS]

  good for chain restaurants and how much [TS]

  I hate all of them which is basically [TS]

  everyone in the chat room and the two of [TS]

  you there are good chain restaurants [TS]

  there just are very few good chain pizza [TS]

  restaurants and i think most would be [TS]

  local chains that you wouldn't have [TS]

  heard of but it's fine that's fine [TS]

  also if you're going to have changed [TS]

  pizza I'm [TS]

  sure dominoes even the best one of those [TS]

  what would it be [TS]

  I was always a bigger fan of like the [TS]

  really crappy ones like little caesars [TS]

  or bus to hunt because like because like [TS]

  if you're gonna go with some really [TS]

  crappy big grand pizza [TS]

  you might as well go like super crappy [TS]

  and get like all the junk food value of [TS]

  it i feel like i would get something [TS]

  frozen from the supermarket before I [TS]

  would take delivery from any change yeah [TS]

  i did i did a lot of those to make a lot [TS]

  of like that and those are not good [TS]

  don't get me wrong they're terrible [TS]

  that's how bad i think the delivery is [TS]

  it would take a red baron pizza / [TS]

  dominoes not not red baron but maybe [TS]

  something else [TS]

  what is the thing it's not delivery its [TS]

  DiGiorno when that marketing werks night [TS]

  I don't know what kind of be like a [TS]

  matchup like even and anyway like we [TS]

  should've got into the pit stop and what [TS]

  always it's going good [TS]

  why it was so moving on your imagine no [TS]

  I can't get past this i can't imagine a [TS]

  world where somebody says man I'd really [TS]

  like some pizza and I'd like to get [TS]

  dominos and he in you have to be like mm [TS]

  dominoes is not good enough for me [TS]

  I'm sorry we're gonna have to go [TS]

  somewhere else well you know sometimes [TS]

  you have these things you don't like but [TS]

  i think its arm even if this is more of [TS]

  an issue of me even when Marco sings [TS]

  market like he has his fancy coffee [TS]

  right but when he's on the road will get [TS]

  starbucks yeah precisely when I'm on the [TS]

  road i will I would be the equivalent of [TS]

  me is I would choose not to have coffee [TS]

  sometimes i do like that's the level on [TS]

  that with it same thing with pizza bagel [TS]

  I just don't get a pizza if I can't get [TS]

  good pizza and it's fine i eat something [TS]

  else and if someone else gets bad we [TS]

  don't eat it you know you got to eat to [TS]

  stay alive right it'sit's not but I will [TS]

  never choose it like it whereas Marco [TS]

  because he's addicted will choose to get [TS]

  our weapons because it's like well it's [TS]

  better than no coffee but no it's not [TS]

  better than no pizza no pizza beats [TS]

  Domino's Pizza my God if I listeners if [TS]

  I ever get to the point that I'm this [TS]

  fussy about freaking anything it's not [TS]

  it's not funny it's just like it's just [TS]

  a preference like i don't i don't [TS]

  consider it the same category of food [TS]

  it's like i'll just pick a different [TS]

  plenty of kind of foods to choose from [TS]

  like I'm not that picky about burgers [TS]

  right I'll many more options for burgers [TS]

  including ones from chains and lots of [TS]

  things from change but when it comes to [TS]

  pizza i will just pick a different food [TS]

  product that i don't think it's being [TS]

  bob is just kind of like that i don't i [TS]

  don't like that doesn't taste good to me [TS]

  i don't want it and I don't need it for [TS]

  chemical reason so i will just pick [TS]

  something else like a I don't have a [TS]

  sandwich from subway then bad pizza [TS]

  I don't know what that sandwich from [TS]

  subway are are probably the bottom rung [TS]

  of things that you can call sandwich but [TS]

  we watched as people know the chat room [TS]

  we've lost the dominoes brand [TS]

  sponsorship for losing the subway / and [TS]

  sponsorship from the show that this is [TS]

  why we can't have brand advertisers and [TS]

  podcasts before he pissed off all the [TS]

  brain will take Waffle House sponsorship [TS]

  so because they embrace what they are [TS]

  it was more of a steak and shake person [TS]

  myself over waffle house I don't even [TS]

  understand why subway so bad you're [TS]

  watching the created in front of you you [TS]

  don't understand why subway as bad [TS]

  please can you stop please don't know [TS]

  I'm I'm trying I'm trying to trying to [TS]

  help you here do not know i just want [TS]

  your players not until you want to die [TS]

  on just now finally I'm not saying that [TS]

  it's the hill wanna die I don't want [TS]

  your help i want to be able to go to any [TS]

  friggin restaurant I want and be [TS]

  genuinely happy with the meal I've had I [TS]

  have gone to subway although not lately [TS]

  and been genuinely happy with me off hat [TS]

  are there better sandwiches in the world [TS]

  absofreakinlutely does that count as a [TS]

  restaurant the show please I haven't [TS]

  been this angry you too since the mac [TS]

  pro discussions we could just if i ever [TS]

  get this policy and high maintenance [TS]

  just kicked me in the shins what vodka [TS]

  would you drink AZ would you drink that [TS]

  they hit the big handle of like the [TS]

  cheap Russian whatever vodka that comes [TS]

  in the plastic bottle would you think [TS]

  that they just going to run through [TS]

  brita filters and it's fine [TS]

  they had that job for you didn't you [TS]

  you're privy to this because this stupid [TS]

  stupid secret of vodka is that did you [TS]

  know that whatever i saw that i don't [TS]

  know i don't think i don't think about [TS]

  the boards i saw that thing with the [TS]

  filters like all right everyone who [TS]

  filled with vodka is just I thought [TS]

  those BS III don't exactly you're free [TS]

  to but I thought that was BS maybe it is [TS]

  BS i might be wrong i'm entirely willing [TS]

  to believe it especially without [TS]

  all of the first few drinks anyway you [TS]

  can just like secretly switched the crap [TS]

  yourself at home Care's well that's [TS]

  convenient here's the thing like I would [TS]

  absolutely choose a fussy vodka like [TS]

  Tito's if I had the choice but if I [TS]

  don't have the choice or if I'm or like [TS]

  a rail broadcast on happy hour you know [TS]

  you do is put a couple lemons in there [TS]

  wait a second for to get a little bit [TS]

  watered down with a little bit of lemon [TS]

  in it and then you are fine i prefer the [TS]

  titos for sure but I am perfectly happy [TS]

  with a slightly watered down slightly [TS]

  lemony vodka and I am and I'd be happier [TS]

  about that having saved a bunch of money [TS]

  off getting a real one instead of a [TS]

  Tito's I i would be happy with that [TS]

  although you that is the best example of [TS]

  heard so far me being fussy wouldn't you [TS]

  ruin like a $13 profilter by converting [TS]

  your cheaper market into $13 more [TS]

  expensive vodka and a snowman you still [TS]

  come out ahead of you run it through [TS]

  enough times that so its equivalent like [TS]

  the five-hundred-dollar bottle is there [TS]

  five more vodka is like it's not good [TS]

  i'm sure there is i'm absolutely sure [TS]

  there is other absolutely and i should [TS]

  also note that my fussy vodka Tito's is [TS]

  like the cheapest of the fussy vodkas [TS]

  which is part of the reason why I like [TS]

  it so much [TS]

  remember when when you when you were [TS]

  coming over and we bought a bottle so [TS]

  that you would not you know judge our [TS]

  vaca collection so judge of things [TS]

  no I remember being very surprised how [TS]

  expensive was because the way you talked [TS]

  about it I thought it would be like a [TS]

  really premium priced one but no turns [TS]

  out vodka just terrible nobody president [TS]

  very high it's not terrible you gin [TS]

  drinker you are didn't gin drinker [TS]

  aren't you know how's your grass tastes [TS]

  like I i occasionally drink in i had not [TS]

  by itself and I i prefer gin-based [TS]

  drinks like martinis to drinking it [TS]

  straight but oh god a gin martini i [TS]

  forgot i I'm not that much of a little [TS]

  person I I much prefer either not [TS]

  drinking or drinking beer i'll see like [TS]

  to drink your bread i understand i'm [TS]

  gonna get so much angry email i'm gonna [TS]

  have to quit the show it's gonna be the [TS]

  worst i don't know i tried to help me [TS]

  with the subway think it's not too late [TS]

  as Marco to cut it out [TS]

  no this is meaning you can let it stay [TS]

  at right try to get this back in the [TS]

  real slightly i will say John you were [TS]

  you were seemingly puzzled by the idea [TS]

  of why would somebody pay like a like a [TS]

  20-percent premium for the convenience [TS]

  of ordering through this through like a [TS]

  cylinder robot [TS]

  boys not why but that your audience is [TS]

  limited because i know those services [TS]

  exist i know the people who use them but [TS]

  they're never gonna be mass market [TS]

  because twenty percent is just too much [TS]

  for most people [TS]

  I'll tell you what though I would [TS]

  probably pay roughly that premium to [TS]

  avoid talking to somebody on the phone i [TS]

  hear ya again yeah i know i understand [TS]

  like that's theirs if that was my only [TS]

  alternative like because like a lot of [TS]

  places around here that you know like [TS]

  you know in in the area that I think [TS]

  John both of us live in there's not a [TS]

  lot of changes present and a lot of [TS]

  place the order from just like [TS]

  independently-owned places and so [TS]

  anything that relies on like you know [TS]

  really convenient like or you can order [TS]

  with our app or things like that like [TS]

  most of the places around here don't [TS]

  support that because they dared not a [TS]

  big enough operation to be integrated [TS]

  that way to have their own app or [TS]

  whatever else which means a i can use [TS]

  Apple pay anywhere i can use my chip [TS]

  card anywhere even you know in most [TS]

  places heat her and be the you know they [TS]

  don't support like it any of these [TS]

  automated ways of ordering so if i want [TS]

  to order something i'm still doing it [TS]

  the way the San Francisco people think [TS]

  is like barbaric of like calling them on [TS]

  the phone and place an order for [TS]

  delivery or going to going to pick up my [TS]

  car and I hate talking on the phone so [TS]

  much especially too nerdy introverts [TS]

  with with disposable income again it's a [TS]

  narrow market like it where the [TS]

  potential for agents that can do things [TS]

  conversationally without you having to [TS]

  type things or really pay attention just [TS]

  yelling commands out into the air the [TS]

  potential for that is mass market but [TS]

  the number of people who are currently [TS]

  willing to pay to avoid phone calls and [TS]

  stuff like and and don't blink at twenty [TS]

  percent is just too small [TS]

  like I and I throw these things with the [TS]

  that's another thing against these [TS]

  things that are funded by having deals [TS]

  with providers of their services is that [TS]

  exactly the people who are the nerdy [TS]

  introverted people who don't make phone [TS]

  calls those are exactly the people read [TS]

  the wire cutter and obsess over which [TS]

  light bulbs are going to get and those [TS]

  people will not be happy not being able [TS]

  to choose who provides the flowers or [TS]

  even who gives them their weather [TS]

  reported like those are exactly the [TS]

  people who want the the thing that's [TS]

  going to use big data to figure out what [TS]

  the best whatever [TS]

  is and learn your preferences and do all [TS]

  that stuff they don't want to be hemmed [TS]

  into you know particular vendors and so [TS]

  I maybe was just hoping to be purchased [TS]

  by Apple or Google or alphabet or [TS]

  whatever and that's their biggest plan [TS]

  there but I i I'm not a fan of this [TS]

  model where the product isn't good [TS]

  enough for users to pay for it yet and [TS]

  the way they make their money is with [TS]

  back in deals and you have this agent [TS]

  who you can't do you have this personal [TS]

  assistant who can do a limited number of [TS]

  things hopefully if you get the syntax [TS]

  right and you have no control of our [TS]

  awareness over the companies that are [TS]

  filling the things he seemingly no way [TS]

  to get feedback about how well it went [TS]

  when the pizza right did you like it or [TS]

  did you not like you can just get me a [TS]

  pizza but not for that last place that [TS]

  was gross so going back to the original [TS]

  topic here these voice assistant things [TS]

  my I think there's a lot more to discuss [TS]

  here we're gonna have time for today [TS]

  honestly there's a lot more discuss here [TS]

  about just how these things are and and [TS]

  the kind of us runs first of all I think [TS]

  it would be a hilarious business model [TS]

  if the series founders just kept making [TS]

  things selling them to apple and then [TS]

  just quitting and making the next thing [TS]

  and then apple buys that one [TS]

  people do that all the time that's the [TS]

  serial entrepreneur thing you make a [TS]

  start-up you you know exactly what to [TS]

  make you know you that you have a [TS]

  multiple potential buyers you play them [TS]

  off each other you sell you do the next [TS]

  one and what you get to do i guess that [TS]

  is during all that time do the fun part [TS]

  of that you like starting the company [TS]

  doing the exciting thing or whatever and [TS]

  you just have to exit after exit that's [TS]

  that's the way some people live their [TS]

  lives totally viable business model [TS]

  especially in this day so I it i do [TS]

  think you know getting back as they [TS]

  wouldn't be episode of the show without [TS]

  a completed but Apple we almost made it [TS]

  I know I'm a little bit worried that [TS]

  this is an area where like you know [TS]

  Apple started this game really like [TS]

  Apple came out with Siri in 2011 right [TS]

  2011 and you know it [TS]

  Apple started this whole thing really [TS]

  like you know they were there was voice [TS]

  command stuff before that but Syria was [TS]

  not took it to another level and [TS]

  integrated with the phone and you know [TS]

  it was it was a big deal and then since [TS]

  then [TS]

  Cirie has advanced but fairly slowly and [TS]

  in fairly small steps while the same [TS]

  time it seems like now there are [TS]

  multiple companies there's amazon [TS]

  there's how hounds are other amazon [TS]

  hound the vibe give [TS]

  there's all these companies now coming [TS]

  out with even better stuff it's like a [TS]

  giant seem like a generation ahead of [TS]

  Siri in in like the the intelligence the [TS]

  recognition and the accuracy and things [TS]

  like that it seems like Apple kind of [TS]

  started this and now everyone's kind of [TS]

  over running them and I don't think [TS]

  apple is like hustling I I've used I've [TS]

  used this this work before that it [TS]

  seemed like apple recently lacks hustle [TS]

  this is the only area this applies to [TS]

  wear like Apple can start something and [TS]

  everyone else kind of rushes and does [TS]

  their own version of it better [TS]

  apple just kind of can't keep up is this [TS]

  a problem well that i would call hustle [TS]

  in this case like you remember when when [TS]

  jobs.can the the atg Apple technology [TS]

  group for advanced technology group [TS]

  everybody G stands for someone someone [TS]

  who works at up all through it but [TS]

  anyway like Apple used to do way more [TS]

  basic research type stuff like that [TS]

  whole department whose job was to do [TS]

  like basic research type things and in [TS]

  theory maybe we'll come up with a couple [TS]

  ideas that other groups in the company [TS]

  that made actual products would do it [TS]

  Steve Jobs concentrated the whole [TS]

  company i'm like no don't do [TS]

  pie-in-the-sky wouldn't it be cool if [TS]

  let's investigate this kind of [TS]

  technology that family breakfast or used [TS]

  to work at Apple for crying out loud [TS]

  right and jobs like no we want to make [TS]

  great products that ship now and they've [TS]

  done that and that's a very successful [TS]

  advanced technology group that [TS]

  yeah the helpful k see listings in the [TS]

  chatroom what we want to make actual [TS]

  when my actual products because it's it [TS]

  doesn't do anybody good to have these [TS]

  research ideas and maybe one of them [TS]

  shows up many years later but things [TS]

  like Siri that's the only real way you [TS]

  advance that is with some amount of [TS]

  basic research I feel like Apple found a [TS]

  company that was doing this thing [TS]

  whatever the esri company overcome be [TS]

  Cirie came from that already had done [TS]

  the basic research acquired them [TS]

  productized it and then is working the [TS]

  improvements to Syria talking about a [TS]

  lot of them have to do with productize [TS]

  improvements make it more reliable make [TS]

  it faster building on a different [TS]

  platform but the basic research needed [TS]

  to take series to the next level [TS]

  I don't know if that is budgeted for [TS]

  accounted for dealt with within the [TS]

  realm of Syria that product like so [TS]

  there they feel like they're advancing [TS]

  the product and meanwhile the founders [TS]

  had left was like I don't want to just [TS]

  incremental advances product or make it [TS]

  more reliable fast like that's your [TS]

  problem not interested in that I'm [TS]

  interested in how do you make the next [TS]

  grade personal assistant or whatever and [TS]

  the fact that they felt like they had to [TS]

  leave Apple to do that [TS]

  I mean maybe it's you know maybe they're [TS]

  there misinform really there was a place [TS]

  in grappling do that basic research and [TS]

  it should have been part of the plan or [TS]

  whatever but the apple today is much [TS]

  less focused on basic research stuff and [TS]

  and they do like the things they do like [TS]

  all that research in touch screens and [TS]

  stuff like that that's not the same as [TS]

  basic research it's more like free [TS]

  production product things like ideas for [TS]

  future concrete products and again I [TS]

  think this is a great strategy and it [TS]

  gives you great products instead of just [TS]

  great concept videos don't really do [TS]

  anything it's been the cornerstone of [TS]

  Apple success so you can't really fault [TS]

  him for that but I think it's also the [TS]

  reason that Google who just tons of [TS]

  crazy ideas and basic research stuff [TS]

  in-house that just never goes anywhere [TS]

  which we criticize them for and startups [TS]

  who their whole point is like that you [TS]

  have a great idea let's see it and half [TS]

  of them died you know care but if i end [TS]

  up being successful as we said before [TS]

  about just buy them again that i think [TS]

  is actually have a viable strategy like [TS]

  if they can't or don't want to support [TS]

  that type of advancement in house allow [TS]

  it to flourish out in the market [TS]

  wait for all the crappy ones to die find [TS]

  the ones that are left and buy them at [TS]

  the right time because one thing Apple [TS]

  does have is a lot of money so maybe [TS]

  Apple vibes live and the next version of [TS]

  series powered by that and who could say [TS]

  that's a bad strategy it's just [TS]

  uncomfortable during this time now where [TS]

  we see like you know seemingly everybody [TS]

  else can do serie better than apple can [TS]

  and apples just barely working on can we [TS]

  make existing serie reliable and a [TS]

  little bit smarter and expand the [TS]

  capabilities and by the way still no api [TS]

  so no real ecosystem or whatever and [TS]

  that I think is uncomfortable but I [TS]

  don't think it's insurmountable because [TS]

  you just throw money at whatever the [TS]

  most people think the problem is if [TS]

  Google is the one who does that you know [TS]

  Syria better than Syria which arguably [TS]

  they already have this google is not [TS]

  going to sell you their stuff so that's [TS]

  a problem for Apple but the vivre is not [TS]

  a problem for Apple it's a it's a it's [TS]

  opportune [TS]

  I'm going with vibe now that's the the [TS]

  HTC be our thing [TS]

  yeah but I'm never going to get that is [TS]

  that leaves two I don't even now that's [TS]

  viv [TS]

  alright thanks 143 sponsors this week [TS]

  fracture freshbooks and back plays and [TS]

  we will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin because it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental John research Margo [TS]

  and Casey would let you [TS]

  because it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental [TS]

  you can find the show know today [TS]

  DP die and if twitter follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

  syracuse it [TS]

  so Instagram change their icon everyone [TS]

  lost their I don't like the icon that [TS]

  much but I don't think it's the total [TS]

  dumpster fire that everyone else is [TS]

  pretty bad it's pretty bad its remember [TS]

  one web two point was the thing you guys [TS]

  remember web 2.0 yeah gradients and [TS]

  rounded corners [TS]

  yeah the web 2.0 parody sites that would [TS]

  like make fun of all the design tropes [TS]

  point out the Instagram icon looks like [TS]

  a modern version of making fun of the [TS]

  flat design tropes I could see that give [TS]

  you if you tried to do a parody iconic [TS]

  like imagine the Instagram icon adopted [TS]

  all of the current fashion trends in the [TS]

  most obvious and glaring ways you would [TS]

  get that stupid thing but I don't think [TS]

  it's that bad i mean it's not as bad as [TS]

  domino's pizza or vodka [TS]

  yeah I like it it's fine whatever like [TS]

  it has some things going for it [TS]

  especially look at their alternate [TS]

  designs and boring some of those where I [TS]

  like the design that was like a a black [TS]

  square with a white circle in the middle [TS]

  of it like just now let's workshop that [TS]

  a little bit more at least this one has [TS]

  something to it will stand out a little [TS]

  bit on people screens because it's not [TS]

  just a flat color like has so many [TS]

  people said on Twitter and as I've said [TS]

  about windows XP and bumper sounds in [TS]

  the end it doesn't matter that much [TS]

  because long-term eventually you will [TS]

  come to associate with whatever the hell [TS]

  image they make you will come to [TS]

  associate that with instagram and kids [TS]

  who are just getting the first iphones [TS]

  now don't know what the old icon looks [TS]

  like we'll be fine with it and order [TS]

  screws in but it is not the type of i [TS]

  think that that explains why it's not a [TS]

  disaster but I think you can also have [TS]

  an icon that the initial impression is [TS]

  that it's a nice well-designed pleasing [TS]

  icon and it also will come to be [TS]

  associated with the application that you [TS]

  know and love like you don't have to say [TS]

  that as if it's an either/or well you [TS]

  can have an icon that is immediately [TS]

  attracted but it will be crap long-term [TS]

  now will also be good long-term so I [TS]

  feel like this one is a missed [TS]

  opportunity to make a better icon and I [TS]

  don't particularly like it but it'll be [TS]

  fine it's not it's not disastrous like [TS]

  was the disastrous one like when we [TS]

  tried to do that tropicana orange juice [TS]

  and a backpedal not you always know [TS]

  disaster if they change their minds [TS]

  come back into shows from now and see if [TS]

  they change the icon back but i have a [TS]

  feeling the wall because it's not that [TS]

  bad [TS]

  the other changes they've made recently [TS]

  or more offensive that like the icon [TS]

  like they replaced one crap icon with [TS]

  another crap icon like the old icon was [TS]

  crap to it was just our family crap that [TS]

  was that had a really good branding like [TS]

  it was it was it looked great in ios6 [TS]

  right and i stayed a long time but at a [TS]

  certain point when you're the last one [TS]

  standing I think you could become sort [TS]

  of an act of defiance or like a quark [TS]

  and you know the only one only one icon [TS]

  gets to do that you can have a home [TS]

  screen that has like six icons it still [TS]

  looks like I OSX but if only one does it [TS]

  like all right [TS]

  sure go with that but yeah it didn't to [TS]

  be updated and they had a difficult [TS]

  challenge but I inside the app i [TS]

  actually like I like the like the fact [TS]

  that it doesn't look like the essential [TS]

  item on the toolbar is constantly [TS]

  selected like this like that stupid blue [TS]

  is gone i'm pretty big fan [TS]

  yeah I completely agree i really really [TS]

  like the the new look of the app and I [TS]

  think you and I are mostly on the same [TS]

  page about the icon like I don't love it [TS]

  but I don't think it's bad I i also [TS]

  didn't think the last one was bad yes it [TS]

  looked outdated but I I completely [TS]

  concur that the branding was great i [TS]

  think i would have preferred just a [TS]

  flattened or perhaps simplified simplify [TS]

  that about a simplified version of the [TS]

  old icon but i would have been pretty [TS]

  timid though if they did that everyone [TS]

  like I go you did the obvious thing you [TS]

  just made a flat shaded version of the [TS]

  camera and I i think that would be more [TS]

  difficult i think that actually less [TS]

  successful than this because I yeah your [TS]

  brother may be immediately kind of [TS]

  inoffensive you won't have gone anywhere [TS]

  this is at least is you know that you [TS]

  can tell they made a change it's not [TS]

  like it's a subtle tweak nope big change [TS]

  well it on top of that this icon [TS]

  definitely stands out which presumably [TS]

  is the goal right it's not another damn [TS]

  blue icon you know it's it's something [TS]

  that is a color palette that looks [TS]

  different than anything else i have on [TS]

  my home screen and of course that may [TS]

  not be true for everyone but it's [TS]

  certainly the case on my phone I mean it [TS]

  jumps out at me on my home screen it is [TS]

  on my very very first home screen [TS]

  because that's how much i love this damn [TS]

  ass [TS]

  so I i think the icons ok i'm sure all [TS]

  come to think it's decent over time like [TS]

  you said John but I completely [TS]

  completely agree i love the muted look [TS]

  of the app itself so that damn near all [TS]

  the color is either your profile [TS]

  pictures or the actual photos on [TS]

  Instagram I really really like it i [TS]

  would pay money to get rid of the ads [TS]

  though the ads on my Instagram feed are [TS]

  just oppressive like I don't thought [TS]

  maybe I don't follow enough people but [TS]

  it seems like every fifth thing is a [TS]

  giant and I I'm seeing are rather [TS]

  scrolling pass without looking way too [TS]

  many freaking add the Instagram like [TS]

  please i will give you i guess i would [TS]

  give them a dollar a month maybe that's [TS]

  not worth it [TS]

  I'm so just continue to scroll past the [TS]

  edge but i know some people like oh I [TS]

  don't see any ads in my feeding I don't [TS]

  know what Albert my trip to make them [TS]

  spam me with that like crazy but too [TS]

  many too many ads yeah I mean for a [TS]

  while I had no ads and it was great [TS]

  then a few months ago I started getting [TS]

  a very heavy add like we are describing [TS]

  and it really almost rude instagram for [TS]

  me and I didn't go back for a while I [TS]

  guess my engagement dropped and then [TS]

  recently I just kind of stopped seeing [TS]

  ads like they did like flip back off for [TS]

  me but the other day about two days ago [TS]

  I somehow got switched to the [TS]

  algorithmic timeline and you know what I [TS]

  they could put any icon they wanted into [TS]

  the ugliest graphical theme they wanted [TS]

  just give me my stupid chronological [TS]

  timeline back because the algorithmic [TS]

  timeline [TS]

  I mean I I'm just not used to it so [TS]

  maybe i will get used to it and [TS]

  appreciate it and I've never used [TS]

  anything else with an argument timeline [TS]

  I I don't read facebook ok i technically [TS]

  have an account there but I literally [TS]

  have never used it to read its newsfeed [TS]

  I've never done that I don't use like [TS]

  YouTube subscriptions or things like [TS]

  that to like browse youtube I don't and [TS]

  whatever twitter is doing with their [TS]

  everything I don't I don't whatever [TS]

  maybe just drop into it but i don't see [TS]

  I've never seen it so I the only this is [TS]

  the first time I've ever actually seeing [TS]

  an auger timeline and something that [TS]

  previously didn't have fun and it's [TS]

  terrible [TS]

  like it doesn't make [TS]

  any sense like I'm seeing pictures out [TS]

  of order that they happened [TS]

  I have no idea when I've like seen [TS]

  everything I I'm seeing things that that [TS]

  that don't make sense that make me think [TS]

  that I've reached completion but i [TS]

  haven't I see right below it like well [TS]

  here's one that I saw 12 hours ago and [TS]

  right below is one from eight minutes [TS]

  ago and that you've gotta be kidding me [TS]

  for all these years I've been using [TS]

  Instagram that mentioned this before but [TS]

  what i do is i launched instagram app [TS]

  and it shows me whatever picture I was [TS]

  doing last time briefly he had to [TS]

  refresh is for right and then I i [TS]

  memorized in that brief moment memories [TS]

  with images and then scroll backwards [TS]

  like it to it kept saying I'm basically [TS]

  doing my own my own tweet marker don't [TS]

  get used to that because that's how I [TS]

  read it I admit I'm an Instagram [TS]

  completionist i read them [TS]

  chronologically and I don't want to miss [TS]

  any it's slightly confused by the fact [TS]

  that i see a lot of the cross posted to [TS]

  Twitter sometimes I think I've seen that [TS]

  one already must have gone too far but [TS]

  no that's why i gotta memorize the one [TS]

  that play however i got i know exactly [TS]

  what you're saying if they ever if they [TS]

  ever fix the absolute doesn't flash the [TS]

  last images on the screen right before [TS]

  regression the timeline would totally [TS]

  screwed my workforce by got the [TS]

  algorithmic one I don't know what I [TS]

  would do maybe just stop using Instagram [TS]

  but i'll have to try it [TS]

  honestly that's what I'm considering it [TS]

  because it's that bad like so I'm here [TS]

  read my mind now i have four hours ago [TS]

  three hours ago four hours four hours [TS]

  five hours 10 hours one day eight hours [TS]

  to days 10 hours one day like it it's [TS]

  completely shuffle 12 hours it's [TS]

  shuffled like I'll see things even like [TS]

  you know so you might be able to do it [TS]

  you know like I noticed that it puts my [TS]

  wife up top so I usually like her photos [TS]

  and I try to see them all [TS]

  it even shows her photos out of order it [TS]

  is so disruptive and their see I can't [TS]

  find any option anywhere to to flip back [TS]

  i think this is just something that [TS]

  there presumably doing to either boost [TS]

  some engagement thing that they measured [TS]

  once on facebook or they want to they [TS]

  want a new revenue stream of like [TS]

  charging the brands that you follow to [TS]

  appear higher up in your stream or both [TS]

  you know it's charging charging brands [TS]

  to make more people see the things you [TS]

  have 20 million followers but will show [TS]

  your thing to 10 of them unless you pay [TS]

  yeah it's like you earn those followers [TS]

  those people also i want to see [TS]

  everything this person post and we're [TS]

  gonna charge you for access to the [TS]

  audience that you earned yeah that's the [TS]

  facebook model and facebook instagram so [TS]

  that's probably with us for and man it [TS]

  sucks as a user I feel so bad now for [TS]

  literally the entire rest of the world [TS]

  who actually uses facebook who you know [TS]

  trying to make sense of that news feed i [TS]

  remember when they made that change the [TS]

  newsfeed a few years back remember [TS]

  everybody was all upset and I didn't [TS]

  really understand why but now I do [TS]

  because it it completely changes the [TS]

  nature of the service and it kind of [TS]

  breaks it for me like i really i really [TS]

  don't like this and i think this is [TS]

  going to reduce my usage of Instagram [TS]

  substantially I think instead maybe i'm [TS]

  wrong about this but Instagram seems not [TS]

  uniquely vulnerable but more vulnerable [TS]

  than usual to if they screw things up to [TS]

  someone saying alright well just make an [TS]

  Instagram to work like it used to like [TS]

  imagine one that actually kept track of [TS]

  where you were in the timeline and just [TS]

  a straight ahead i believe it's called [TS]

  sweet but I know but it is the social [TS]

  graph so embedded because i can't do [TS]

  that facebook says because too many [TS]

  features too many users it's too big [TS]

  instagram has a lot of users but not a [TS]

  lot of features and it's still kind of [TS]

  an island unto itself like they haven't [TS]

  really totally integrated with facebook [TS]

  at this point so if it if Instagram [TS]

  really does screw things up and then [TS]

  maybe there's a generation people like [TS]

  all they're stuck on Instagram but like [TS]

  look at snapchat comes out of nowhere [TS]

  you can grab new users with the new [TS]

  product that people find compelling and [TS]

  Instagram breaks everybody's workflows [TS]

  who they care about [TS]

  there is a market opportunity for [TS]

  someone to do a very straightforward iOS [TS]

  app that shows you the pictures your [TS]

  friends took in order and has a simple [TS]

  asymmetrical following process like [TS]

  Twitter and has likes and comments like [TS]

  it's not technologically unfeasible all [TS]

  this requires facebook to anger enough [TS]

  people to make a viable market for some [TS]

  other small competitor even if it's just [TS]

  like a company is never going to be his [TS]

  biggest facebook is never gonna are [TS]

  never too big as Instagram never going [TS]

  to usurp Instagram but merely become an [TS]

  alternative is you consider it a [TS]

  successful for Instagram hell [TS]

  dammit you feel great away from me i was [TS]

  so excited to make that joke but [TS]

  nevermind joke i mean it's a thing that [TS]

  could possibly happen like it's not [TS]

  inconceivable that can be a thing [TS]

  depending on how badly in serum screws [TS]

  it up and how many people's work for [TS]

  actually doesn't drop for all we know I [TS]

  guess people chattering if you follow [TS]

  tons of people on algorithmic timeline [TS]

  is indistinguishable from a non out [TS]

  where that one because you never keep [TS]

  track of anything anyway you just launch [TS]

  the app and you scroll until you're [TS]

  satisfied or something i do people [TS]

  scroll backwards like launch the app [TS]

  that gives it to the top of the timeline [TS]

  and they scroll the other way i do [TS]

  anything until they get until they see [TS]

  until I see a picture that they [TS]

  recognize already then they stop [TS]

  yep that help people use it that's the [TS]

  only way you really could use it before [TS]

  alright here's the way I was using it [TS]

  anyway Casey was using it [TS]

  yeah memorize the picture Scroll scroll [TS]

  Scroll scroll a little game Scroll [TS]

  scroll found it now go through them all [TS]

  see I misunderstood i actually do what [TS]

  you just described by misunderstood your [TS]

  region I and when it loads i see the [TS]

  picture like it i see the picture of [TS]

  like I don't know like a Mike Maddux [TS]

  took pictures of cows in a field and at [TS]

  that blinks on screen for a second and [TS]

  then it loads 50 other pictures that i [TS]

  scroll down to find the cow picture and [TS]

  then I see the cal picture and then move [TS]

  down but then you're spoiling it [TS]

  yeah but now I know passing really fast [TS]

  all come on what you have to do is you [TS]

  have to pay an assistant five dollars a [TS]

  month to scroll for you haha SI deve [TS]

  take me to take hey we do the picture [TS]

  that I last saw which again when i first [TS]

  played with instagram like me don't [TS]

  understand how that works is it broken [TS]

  to people how to regular people use [TS]

  Instagram because every time i wanted i [TS]

  wanted to show me the last picture I saw [TS]

  the same overtime logical for twitter [TS]

  app on it showed me last week a red [TS]

  frustrating i think the way regular [TS]

  people do it if they care enough at all [TS]

  is is what you just described what I do [TS]

  and it sounds like Marco does which is [TS]

  ok memorize what I just saw and then [TS]

  start at the top in canada we did it [TS]

  right [TS]

  exactly i'm too old to keep that an inch [TS]

  short term memory for that long I have a [TS]

  couple of seconds before it leaves my [TS]

  head entirely Scroll scroll to go [TS]

  through a cow stop good [TS]

  well the problem is I with the cross [TS]

  post also screwed me up too because on [TS]

  it then I convince myself that the 1i [TS]

  just saw like that that I'd seen on [TS]

  Twitter previously was the one that [TS]

  flash when i open the app and sometimes [TS]

  that's not right that's why I got you [TS]

  gotta [TS]

  yeah try my technique it's a it's you [TS]

  only have to remember to a very short [TS]

  period of time and you can really forget [TS]

  it enjoy it while you can [TS]

  don't close the instagram app that [TS]

  because you're relaunch it if it get [TS]

  purged out of memory then you'll be back [TS]

  to the top again I never noticed that [TS]

  but now that you say that you're [TS]

  absolutely right i never thought about [TS]

  it that way that's why I'm all like [TS]

  three people on Instagram that I'm able [TS]

  to maintain this workflow just giving my [TS]

  regular timeline back for God's sake i'm [TS]

  gonna get so many emails we definitely [TS]

  yeah i think that you will find you [TS]

  there are some kin of the subway defend [TS]

  are somewhat someone's already wrote [TS]

  just me of course saying that I'm not [TS]

  crazy and that it's okay to like things [TS]

  that other people don't like they were [TS]

  too scared to see them at all those huh [TS]

  apparently let somebody as well [TS]

  somebody's file [TS]

  oh yeah subways the words oh yeah but [TS]

  you know sbarro pizza that's so much [TS]

  better [TS]

  some arbys is better than subway yes [TS]

  you're correct [TS]

  mmm is it I idea i don't think its [TS]

  equivalent it is absolutely one that is [TS]

  better it is better it is a better food [TS]

  product on a good food product but it's [TS]

  better i think there is something i [TS]

  could order at subway that I would [TS]

  rather have then anything is a bar would [TS]

  serve now because here's the thing was [TS]

  so far they have dough sauce cheese they [TS]

  assemble them and make them hot that was [TS]

  not good sauce is not good that she's [TS]

  not good how we set any different than [TS]

  subway subway has something that you [TS]

  think is bread but is actually some kind [TS]

  of mold that grows into a bread shaped [TS]

  like this little mutant like read the [TS]

  fetuses that there have been some [TS]

  conservatives and chemicals on them [TS]

  right and the cold cuts are I don't know [TS]

  what they are but like they're just that [TS]

  I have a frozen are they are they like [TS]

  they're just they're not they don't look [TS]

  like our tastes like what cold cuts are [TS]

  supposed to be like we know what coach [TS]

  was supposed to be you go to the store [TS]

  you slice them you get that like these [TS]

  these sort of I don't know what's wrong [TS]

  with them they just they just look and [TS]

  taste like preservatives and coming this [TS]

  little units that they just they just [TS]

  there's not religious not right but what [TS]

  do you what do you think is the [TS]

  ingredient quality at sbarro's right [TS]

  well but as a that's what I'm saying I [TS]

  feel like their cheese is more like real [TS]

  just like there's nothing to go wrong [TS]

  like this little quote there's no [TS]

  coolant like salami like salami the [TS]

  difficult product to get right and [TS]

  Sbarro's [TS]

  no tomorrow the subway salami is I don't [TS]

  know what the hell it is like same thing [TS]

  with the cheese simply just the little [TS]

  preassembled like here's the ingredients [TS]

  for this type of sandwich slapped on [TS]

  their it like it and get the bread and [TS]

  the cold was such a big part of it then [TS]

  you say okay well maybe the tomatoes and [TS]

  a lot of the fine maybe maybe the [TS]

  tomatoes and legs are fine equivalent of [TS]

  whatever the sbarros using but tomorrow [TS]

  has no equivalent even the pepperoni I [TS]

  feel like pepperonis the type of product [TS]

  where you're not you know there is no [TS]

  sort of gold standard for pepperonis [TS]

  lots of variability and it's all kind of [TS]

  crappy and one way or the other but just [TS]

  you know that sauce dough and cheese [TS]

  I feel like is a higher quality is like [TS]

  these are honest products not good [TS]

  tasting product is tomorrow but they're [TS]

  honestly there whereas at subway they're [TS]

  taking a sandwich and screwing up the [TS]

  bread and the cold cut parts of it and [TS]

  then I'm like I'm out that's it what it [TS]

  was left i'm not going to go there for [TS]

  the tomatoes and the lettuce it is just [TS]

  is incredibly vile this is cognitive [TS]

  dissonance what about the cheese [TS]

  triangles on the GL that she's the [TS]

  tessellation minutes yeah that that's [TS]

  just a silly problem assembly problem [TS]

  but elbow cheese shouldn't really be [TS]

  triangle-shaped really I mean it should [TS]

  be squares or circles right we know who [TS]

  has triangle cheese it's just like why [TS]

  they even bothering to cutting that I [TS]

  think it starts out of the square [TS]

  I know and they cut into triangles why [TS]

  so they can screw up the tessellation [TS]

  anger people and it's making sense [TS]

  I don't understand II you're just waving [TS]

  your hands in the air and said like you [TS]

  just don't care and saying oh sbarros [TS]

  great ingredients but subway they can't [TS]

  be great and not a great green that is [TS]

  there more straightforward and honest [TS]

  like no one's going to say that pizza [TS]

  dough isn't pizza dough worries i think [TS]

  they're ready since that whatever it is [TS]

  it's like eating how you don't get it [TS]

  fresh every yummy bacon fresh from what [TS]

  from what from terrible like mushroom [TS]

  mold spore bread filled with Sbarro [TS]

  doesn't get shipped the same bread [TS]

  probably from the same damn bigger ego [TS]

  is no it's not it's it pizza dough is [TS]

  more straightforward to like like here's [TS]

  the problem is it there are so many good [TS]

  places where you can get sample i can [TS]

  maybe have to be from New York [TS]

  understand anything you want a sandwich [TS]

  with cold cuts on it it's not a high bar [TS]

  there's a billion delis in new york [TS]

  state that can give you a sandwich with [TS]

  cold cuts on that is so much better than [TS]

  subway that you shouldn't just never [TS]

  pretend that store doesn't even exist [TS]

  anymore like you can go to whole foods [TS]

  and get [TS]

  better sandwich like you can go to any [TS]

  supermarket and have them assemble you a [TS]

  sandwich with cold cuts on it that's [TS]

  better than someone you can go to panera [TS]

  also way better than that like I can't [TS]

  think of anything worse than subway it [TS]

  how can you [TS]

  is there any place that will sell you a [TS]

  worse sandwich from subway this is my [TS]

  question [TS]

  I can't think of one like a bubble [TS]

  letter board here for it when they're [TS]

  wrapped in saran wrap those sandwiches [TS]

  are better than subway [TS]

  that's what i'm getting at like at least [TS]

  have real bread on even actually even [TS]

  like when arbys added sandwiches to [TS]

  their menu like a while back [TS]

  they're way better than subway [TS]

  sandwiches and that's from arbys yes I'm [TS]

  saying like it and then again those are [TS]

  probably little hamburger buns like they [TS]

  actually actually got like bread and [TS]

  like they started stocking all I'd like [TS]

  bread and cold cuts and stuff and they [TS]

  started making that way is the subway is [TS]

  I feel like the bottom rung of any chain [TS]

  food in in the world like it's probably [TS]

  in the world I can't think of anything [TS]

  worse who you talk to brian just pointed [TS]

  out what is worse at which I assume he [TS]

  said he said the plastic triangle [TS]

  sandwiches i assume he's talking about [TS]

  the ones you getting gas stations that's [TS]

  what i was saying I was saying at the [TS]

  air plastic triangle sandwiches at the [TS]

  airport are better than subway they'd [TS]

  probably give you know you know in our [TS]

  job because they have made with real [TS]

  bread there and you know your weight are [TS]

  you sure no ingredients are gonna be [TS]

  gross but most of the grossest because [TS]

  they've been there for a long time which [TS]

  is also why your food poisoning which is [TS]

  why you shouldn't eat them but based on [TS]

  like you know what what are they made up [TS]

  their made of bread there and the [TS]

  ingredients in them they're made of [TS]

  pathogens that sometimes the airport [TS]

  sandwiches are bad because they're made [TS]

  with ingredients don't have enough [TS]

  preservatives and everybody just sit [TS]

  there and they get all gross like [TS]

  it'sit's like any airplane food like [TS]

  they try to make it out of good [TS]

  ingredients but if you know you have [TS]

  this precooked chicken and tomatoes and [TS]

  you let them sit there and you're like [TS]

  this or even better with preservatives [TS]

  because this is just SAT there too long [TS]

  gone through too many pressure changes [TS]

  and now it's just a vile rubber [TS]

  and now it's just a vile rubber [TS]

  the tasteless mess you know what's [TS]

  infuriating about doing the show with [TS]

  you John is that you are just completely [TS]

  and utterly wrong completely wrong [TS]

  I could concede that subway is not great [TS]

  food i'm not arguing that your name or a [TS]

  sandwich name or Sam hold on hold on [TS]

  hold on this the airport sandwiches are [TS]

  unequivocally worse but the problem is [TS]

  because everyone on the internet things [TS]

  you can never say anything that's wrong [TS]

  ever [TS]

  now we're gonna get a thousand emails [TS]

  with people saying oh jon is completely [TS]

  round in terms of trying to help your [TS]

  subway really is the bottom [TS]

  ok ok let's again let's let's concede [TS]

  for the sake of discussion at subway is [TS]

  the worst let's just assume even though [TS]

  it's not let's assume it is i don't [TS]