The Accidental Tech Podcast

176: Yellow Sock Time


  are either of you watching a new top [TS]

  gear know what I want to do that so I'm [TS]

  just very slowly and I watched episode 2 [TS]

  I think i'm on 322 is no good [TS]

  three is where it starts to take a turn [TS]

  in a good one but two is to is the one [TS]

  where they review the big yellow Ferrari [TS]

  right I yes I believe that's right away [TS]

  and Rose well yeah but this the Epsom [TS]

  still no good [TS]

  however the 3 through 5 are much [TS]

  improved was watching so Marco [TS]

  definitely don't even bother with 123 [TS]

  5050 i would say yes so 60 40 45 [TS]

  definitely if you have time worth [TS]

  watching [TS]

  I think I'll just start like this season [TS]

  this plus 1 and just tell me when that [TS]

  Tony that's good parent [TS]

  we should probably start with some [TS]

  follow-up and is it [TS]

  linux or Linus always get it wrong [TS]

  Torvalds heads them said some things to [TS]

  say to you John of all people about hfs+ [TS]

  wasn't to me really this was the thing I [TS]

  was looking for a last week I said that [TS]

  a contestar walls had said unkind things [TS]

  about hfs+ because he had a run-in with [TS]

  it as it relates to the good version [TS]

  control system and I googled for it and [TS]

  I found this exact URL but I mean it's [TS]

  like a bear blind is a google plus [TS]

  blindness this is a google but all that [TS]

  that can't be it i thought he had a blog [TS]

  post or something I just ignored this [TS]

  this google busing it turns out that his [TS]

  little I don't know if this is the [TS]

  origin but this is another place where [TS]

  he complained about isn't a comment on [TS]

  google+ page so it's basically invisible [TS]

  as far as the civilized world is [TS]

  concerned anyway I think I noticed it [TS]

  because I think he did with the [TS]

  equivalent of at mentioning me there and [TS]

  I probably got some notification and [TS]

  google+ back when I was still paying [TS]

  attention to google glass and we'll put [TS]

  a link in the show notes remember when [TS]

  you go to the link [TS]

  there's no way to directly link to this [TS]

  comment as far as i could tell you just [TS]

  have to scroll until you see his name [TS]

  and the substance of it doesn't really [TS]

  matter that much as we talked about last [TS]

  week it's more if you want to see the [TS]

  things that people both love and hate [TS]

  about the linux kernel and linus [TS]

  torvalds and and just those communities [TS]

  how he just says everything in sort of a [TS]

  rude dismissive way like the HMS pluses [TS]

  actively designed to be bad by people [TS]

  who thought they had good ideas and they [TS]

  should just very pasty eaters and they [TS]

  have no idea what they're doing [TS]

  it's it's very rude like you can say all [TS]

  the same things about being rude and [TS]

  that's a topic that's come up a lot and [TS]

  open source communities like some people [TS]

  enjoy that like drawn to keep it real [TS]

  and other people like I don't want to [TS]

  hang out with a bunch of people who are [TS]

  jerks to each other right can we not [TS]

  talk about technical issues without [TS]

  calling people names [TS]

  i stalled can't that's too bad [TS]

  anyway they're so just following up from [TS]

  last weekend closing the circle on why [TS]

  hfs+ makes people angry and you can see [TS]

  it's basically about he really doesn't [TS]

  like NFD to do the decomposed normalized [TS]

  form from unicode even though address [TS]

  what plus doesn't use the exact NFD [TS]

  format used actually a variant but he [TS]

  really hates that entirely like you [TS]

  think that just shouldn't exist and no [TS]

  one should ever use it and he doesn't [TS]

  like the fact that normalize and he [TS]

  doesn't like the fact that this case [TS]

  insensitive so he's really got a lot of [TS]

  complaints about hfs+ go figure [TS]

  but because he liked the king of not [TS]

  invented here syndrome not invented here [TS]

  is just like he's totally he would i [TS]

  would imagine he would be in the camp [TS]

  for it's like why the process of doing [TS]

  anything to my finally why is it trying [TS]

  to do something stupid it should not be [TS]

  messing with my file name it should just [TS]

  do it should just be simple and then [TS]

  unix-like and sort of worse is better [TS]

  all of your system call fails just tried [TS]

  again you'll get an error code that [TS]

  tells you that you better check the area [TS]

  code just check it so simple i think [TS]

  that's you know it's a bag bites just [TS]

  put whatever but you want and you don't [TS]

  know what it means your own stupid fault [TS]

  now i'm doing my weird pretend my star [TS]

  walled voice but that would be my guess [TS]

  is that you have a voice but yeah [TS]

  philosophically he seems to be in the [TS]

  camp that things should be simpler and [TS]

  it's kind of a violation of the contract [TS]

  for the file system to take your [TS]

  filename and do something weird with it [TS]

  fair enough tell me about integrity [TS]

  checker this is the program I was trying [TS]

  to think of the already existing [TS]

  long-standing program that will wander [TS]

  you get your mac discs and [TS]

  write out a bunch check some files and [TS]

  then check that your files haven't [TS]

  changed its from digital Lloyd tools [TS]

  from Mac performance guide will put a [TS]

  link in the show notes i believe it's [TS]

  sprinkles a bunch of dicey files all [TS]

  over your disk a lot of these things [TS]

  that you check sums do something like [TS]

  this that they'll either want to modify [TS]

  your files by adding an extended at read [TS]

  although want to sprinkle a bunch of [TS]

  files all of your disk with check sums [TS]

  in them and there's advantages and [TS]

  disadvantages that the advantages that [TS]

  you can't lose like all your check sums [TS]

  at once like the checksums go along with [TS]

  the directory can move the directory to [TS]

  check something that goes along with it [TS]

  if one of the files gets corrupted you [TS]

  don't lose the all your check sums like [TS]

  it has advantages over a central [TS]

  database but the disadvantage of course [TS]

  is that you get a bunch of these little [TS]

  turkey file sprinkle over your hard [TS]

  drive so you'd be hesitant to point it [TS]

  just an arbitrary directory tree because [TS]

  you'd be like am I going to make some [TS]

  program angry or confused by putting a [TS]

  bunch of these files in the directory [TS]

  that they don't expect to be there but [TS]

  you can check it out it apparently uses [TS]

  sha-1 check sums and in my quest to [TS]

  remember this this to lots of other [TS]

  people sent in other tools saying is [TS]

  just one you're thinking of is when [TS]

  you're thinking of integrity checker was [TS]

  the one I was thinking about a few other [TS]

  ones came up [TS]

  there's a chick bit which is a a note of [TS]

  module that does something similar and [TS]

  apparently they ran out of vows so it's [TS]

  eh kbit will put a link to that in the [TS]

  show notes if you want to use a [TS]

  javascript to do you check something I [TS]

  hear your snark there [TS]

  yeah well it's not bad that is a bunch [TS]

  of tools around par to move based on the [TS]

  P archive format and party was just a [TS]

  second version of it and this is sort of [TS]

  a next step up where instead of just [TS]

  writing a check sums it will write out [TS]

  parody files to correct errors that [TS]

  defined so won't just write the check [TS]

  something know there's an error to [TS]

  essentially do sort of like the same [TS]

  thing that like a raid5 does not the [TS]

  same algorithm or more fancy algorithms [TS]

  for adding parody information so that if [TS]

  you do detect some corruption you can [TS]

  correct it and you just tell it what [TS]

  percentage of your disk space you want [TS]

  to dedicate the parity information so [TS]

  you could dedicate say five percent of [TS]

  of [TS]

  the of your disk space like if you have [TS]

  a director as a hundred megs you can say [TS]

  okay I'm allowing you to use five [TS]

  megabytes just or parody information so [TS]

  that you can recover from one or two or [TS]

  three bit errors or whatever that you [TS]

  find in corruption so that's that's [TS]

  again it's like a user space version of [TS]

  the kind of protection rate might [TS]

  provide you or or something like CFS [TS]

  with a duplicate the data and duplicate [TS]

  the check sums and all that stuff now so [TS]

  if you hypothetically have ever found a [TS]

  file that's fallen off the back of a [TS]

  truck [TS]

  you might have seen parts use associated [TS]

  with that depending on which truck you [TS]

  happen to have found that file on the [TS]

  backup for falling off the backup well [TS]

  only only if you found it on the back of [TS]

  a really old truck he had a very very [TS]

  old truck it were talking like model [TS]

  Tiero even though those old trucks are [TS]

  still running and no one really knows [TS]

  about them and it's amazing but yeah [TS]

  it's a really old truck ahead it's true [TS]

  just talking about pirated files on [TS]

  usenet why would they use the use the [TS]

  original part of why would they use [TS]

  parody information are they trying to I [TS]

  know nothing of this John but if I did [TS]

  know just know something of this i [TS]

  believe its part to me and i believe the [TS]

  rationale is suppose you split up your [TS]

  file on a whole bunch of little ancient [TS]

  trucks you're missing one truck one [TS]

  truck didn't make it that you have like [TS]

  400 other trucks and you have like two [TS]

  part trucks and hearts can replace any [TS]

  of the missing other four hundred trucks [TS]

  yeah so then you can put back together [TS]

  you're really big truck you're trying to [TS]

  assemble so you can finally watch the [TS]

  new top gear america this is the best i [TS]

  love you guys [TS]

  alright what is that Tony gray have to [TS]

  say and hungry tweeted that he [TS]

  apparently is is in the process of [TS]

  trying to make ahfs check some utility [TS]

  as well so he was when he heard us [TS]

  talking about it is like so this is [TS]

  again I said it's not a new idea their [TS]

  existing applications that do it and [TS]

  they're even applications that have not [TS]

  given recent release to do it and of [TS]

  course all which makes me even less [TS]

  inclined even start this project but i [TS]

  can tell you that all these different [TS]

  tools that i looked at none of them does [TS]

  it exactly the way I want [TS]

  do it but it doesn't mean i'll ever [TS]

  actually find the time to make this [TS]

  program will see how is it possible that [TS]

  like I'm going to be a mac programmer [TS]

  before you are no i-i've good [TS]

  programming on the mac toolbox back in [TS]

  the day and made a silly little programs [TS]

  that did nothing so i think i'd be to do [TS]

  it [TS]

  you're probably in what elementary [TS]

  school anyway yeah most likely [TS]

  you haven't seen ya the handle window [TS]

  dragging yourself when he didn't get it [TS]

  free [TS]

  mark what do you want your winner to be [TS]

  draggable you better get the dragon vent [TS]

  talk about barbera otherwise you'd want [TS]

  your application will be a window on the [TS]

  screen you couldn't move it grab a towel [TS]

  bar and wouldn't rush Mac toolbox yay we [TS]

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  mattresses usually cost above $1,500 but [TS]

  a caster mattress cost just 544 twin 854 [TS]

  Queen 954 king and these even if those [TS]

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  understands buying a mattress online [TS]

  sounds a little bit crazy how do you [TS]

  know if you're gonna like it what [TS]

  happens if you don't like how do you [TS]

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  delivers as mentioned in a very small [TS]

  box you can get it up steps you can move [TS]

  in the house it is very small and then [TS]

  you open the box and expands outward by [TS]

  sucking all the air in the room [TS]

  so don't worry there's still some for [TS]

  you but it's done it's looking a lot of [TS]

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  and if you don't like it you call them [TS]

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  once again go to Casper calm / ATP and [TS]

  use code ATP for fifty dollars towards [TS]

  your mattress thanks to capture for [TS]

  sponsoring our show [TS]

  ah alright kids we did not cover all of [TS]

  the Apple platform filesystem no stop [TS]

  saying platformers Apple file says them [TS]

  why is that why is that still alive [TS]

  because there's a pee in there it's at [TS]

  Paul a mac OS a nap pool file system [TS]

  Nicolas Cage come on you don't you don't [TS]

  get that don't pretend you get that [TS]

  anyway tell me about space sharing John [TS]

  while we talk about these last remaining [TS]

  a PFS topics you guys to think of some [TS]

  of us the show otherwise we're going to [TS]

  do how to handle email or screen time [TS]

  for kids we can talk about top here some [TS]

  more that just I think we did actually [TS]

  talk about these in a post deputies you [TS]

  think I thought about them a little bit [TS]

  more space sharing is the first one [TS]

  where I forget the terminology like a [TS]

  container for a PFS then you can put a [TS]

  bunch of different volumes in it but you [TS]

  don't have to partition it just make one [TS]

  big giant container and then you can [TS]

  make as many volumes as you want and [TS]

  every single volume seize the entire [TS]

  size of the container which seems weird [TS]

  but it's it's great so you don't have to [TS]

  do that you know in your experiment [TS]

  still think of how big should i make the [TS]

  user partition how big their make the / [TS]

  partition you don't have to think ahead [TS]

  of time about how much room something is [TS]

  going to take up if you have a large [TS]

  volume you want to divide up between [TS]

  multiple uses you [TS]

  just let them go at it and they will [TS]

  find their natural equilibrium or one of [TS]

  the mold grow too fast you'll be [TS]

  disappointed you wish you could [TS]

  partition it but I think you'll still be [TS]

  able to make multiple containers like [TS]

  old style partitions I'm tried it anyway [TS]

  that's interesting from a UI perspective [TS]

  because got the same problems drobo had [TS]

  like Woodrow would show you how much [TS]

  space would show much larger amount of [TS]

  space that was actually available like [TS]

  to for example the time machine if you [TS]

  doing time machine to a drobo and as [TS]

  time machine ran eventually you know the [TS]

  driver would just run out of space but [TS]

  time machine can't predict that because [TS]

  i can't really get an accurate read on [TS]

  how much space there really is because [TS]

  of the similar space sharing type thing [TS]

  that was a multi-disc situation but [TS]

  anyway I don't know how you show space [TS]

  sharing to the user you just show them [TS]

  and I'm assuming like oh I've got one [TS]

  terabyte drive with three volumes on it [TS]

  3 1 terabyte volumes and if you get info [TS]

  on each of those three volumes they also [TS]

  yep I'm am one terabyte volume and I [TS]

  have this much free I don't know you can [TS]

  show that in a sensible way but i'm glad [TS]

  the future exists because i like the [TS]

  idea of not having to think about it [TS]

  ahead of time and make fixed-size [TS]

  partitions although I'm not sure that's [TS]

  the thing people do anymore d the [TS]

  morning you have any of your disk [TS]

  partition or do you have more than one [TS]

  disk i do have more than one disk i [TS]

  don't have the partition at all and i [TS]

  think one way you can do this maybe is [TS]

  with the with network drives at least [TS]

  they have the quota system but this is [TS]

  how this is how technologies time [TS]

  machine hosting module works where and I [TS]

  should point out again i think i've said [TS]

  this before but I've done many different [TS]

  ways of time machine backup from direct [TS]

  attacks discs to a mac mini server [TS]

  running OS 10 server with Time Machine [TS]

  server on that to this analogy thing [TS]

  I've never used a time capsule but [TS]

  otherwise everything else I've done and [TS]

  the the synology system is by far the [TS]

  most reliable with time machine I've [TS]

  never had to like format the whole [TS]

  partition and start again because time [TS]

  machine kept thinking it was full look [TS]

  at that happened with literally every [TS]

  other method tried never happened with [TS]

  the synology one and what i have is but [TS]

  what seems like a pretty complex setup [TS]

  which is a single i believe a terabyte [TS]

  volume that is split between me and tiff [TS]

  and each of us connect to it with a [TS]

  different username and each user name [TS]

  has a 50-percent space quota on that [TS]

  volume [TS]

  and we both Phillip or become very close [TS]

  to filling it much of the time and it's [TS]

  fine like it has never aired out time [TS]

  machine always keep up-to-date so you [TS]

  know what I do this is a complete [TS]

  diversion but huge recommendation for [TS]

  using the time machine thing on [TS]

  technologies because it's amazing [TS]

  although one better i have the same i [TS]

  have not a single but i have a time [TS]

  machine volume and I think Sal channel [TS]

  if you have one time machine volume i [TS]

  think that's actually like a rate a raid [TS]

  set at this point because it's bigger [TS]

  than any one of my single discs and i [TS]

  have three or four different computers [TS]

  back after time machine and I'll do [TS]

  anything with quotas I just let them run [TS]

  interesting they just kind of fight it [TS]

  out [TS]

  I don't know what they're doing all i [TS]

  know is it never bothers me the backup [TS]

  is complete successfully you can recover [TS]

  files from it [TS]

  I I think they just you know when one of [TS]

  them sees that the thing is filling the [TS]

  trim they're all backups you know like [TS]

  it's as far as I'm concerned it's magic [TS]

  yes I don't do anything with the quotas [TS]

  it's a free-for-all it's just like [TS]

  whoever whichever time machine backup in [TS]

  the pit getting close to the end of the [TS]

  disk it says it's time for me to trim [TS]

  some all backups and it does that it's [TS]

  cooperative time machining nice yeah i [TS]

  would i would double down what you guys [TS]

  said as well i have to physical disks [TS]

  that are joined in whatever the raid is [TS]

  that is non redundant because it's 0 [TS]

  yep and so so i have two discs joined [TS]

  raid0 yeah i do the quota thing that [TS]

  Marcos talking about i have yet to have [TS]

  an issue outside of a disk failure which [TS]

  is beyond serologies control but not [TS]

  it's worked really well for me [TS]

  well how did we get on this subject [TS]

  weirdo Johnny asked if we partition [TS]

  stuff i have not partitioned any mac of [TS]

  owned ever to the best of my [TS]

  recollection I've never done even boot [TS]

  camp which you would think i would have [TS]

  given my prior profession but I always [TS]

  just used the m's I used to aggressively [TS]

  partition my my actual physical windows [TS]

  machines in the past i remember since [TS]

  ever I would have liked my OS drive and [TS]

  then my like data drive and then [TS]

  applications drive thinking that if I [TS]

  ever wanted to put on a different OS [TS]

  like a new version windows whatever then [TS]

  all that other stuff could just remain [TS]

  where it was and in reality that has [TS]

  never been the case ever ever ever [TS]

  ever yeah i mean with Windows I would do [TS]

  the same thing because if your windows [TS]

  power user you you get into the habit of [TS]

  like just maybe once a year just [TS]

  reformat your system drive and put it [TS]

  all back and start start clean because [TS]

  with Windows you basically have to do [TS]

  that to have a welcoming system and once [TS]

  I moved to max I i think i've done that [TS]

  literally like since the time I started [TS]

  using Mac's in 2004 i think i started [TS]

  clean twice in an entire time [TS]

  yeah i think my first time since 08 was [TS]

  when I got the imac and then I was much [TS]

  more piecemeal about it rather than just [TS]

  transferring everything but let you know [TS]

  they doing that migration system style [TS]

  thing but anyway yeah so that was an [TS]

  extraordinarily long answer the question [TS]

  John asked which ones do you guys [TS]

  partition your drives and john i'm [TS]

  assuming use you you did so you do or [TS]

  you you're going to say you do I assume [TS]

  yeah I do I'm not my main drive but i [TS]

  have somebody drive to accept this [TS]

  they're all split up into little pieces [TS]

  mostly because the drives are so big [TS]

  it'd be a waste to dedicate think I'm [TS]

  not gonna dedicate one terabyte boot [TS]

  camp right so that drivers split up and [TS]

  other drives like I just divided into [TS]

  two pieces and it i I've never done a [TS]

  separate user directory a lot of people [TS]

  do that like they have their home [TS]

  directory and all their files on [TS]

  onedrive and then like basically a boot [TS]

  drive with the OS on it in their [TS]

  applications and I never quite [TS]

  understood that split and any time I [TS]

  ever try to spell like that back in the [TS]

  old days very tiny hard drives [TS]

  I always got it wrong like you try to [TS]

  guess how big everything is and give [TS]

  room for growth and if you guess wrong [TS]

  on the operating system is like you know [TS]

  system 7.5 point 5 comes out and it's a [TS]

  little bit bigger and you know just it's [TS]

  so easy to get that messed up so i i'm i [TS]

  think i will use something like this [TS]

  because i have things partition now and [TS]

  I realize if I ever got close to you [TS]

  know my space constraints i would have [TS]

  all this wasted space and you can resize [TS]

  partitions to some degree but it's not [TS]

  as flexible as you want so i think i [TS]

  will use spacefaring I won't be confused [TS]

  by the size stuff and I suppose other [TS]

  people normal people who would be [TS]

  computed just never partition anything [TS]

  so maybe it's a non-issue [TS]

  but speaking of time machine that's [TS]

  doesn't aps thing related that first of [TS]

  all you can use time machine with a BFS [TS]

  right now but that's obviously a [TS]

  temporary condition a PFS doesn't [TS]

  provide any [TS]

  particular new features that make it [TS]

  easier for you to answer the question [TS]

  hey what's happened since the last time [TS]

  I ran a backup in a little bit like it's [TS]

  basically still going to have to use [TS]

  something like as events where any i/o [TS]

  that goes through the colonel is logged [TS]

  in some fashion and then you can find [TS]

  out what has changed since the last time [TS]

  you ran I and you probably the same API [TS]

  is put in a similar fashion so it [TS]

  doesn't have something like CFS is a [TS]

  give me the block tips since last time [TS]

  and even if it had that even though the [TS]

  super-efficient doesn't quite work with [TS]

  time machines you why because time you [TS]

  want to exclude things and if you do [TS]

  anything at the block level you don't [TS]

  you can't be excluding as easily as you [TS]

  know based on file path or whatever so [TS]

  AP US doesn't give any advantages time [TS]

  machine in terms of that kind of [TS]

  efficiency but it does give lots of [TS]

  advantages in terms of making a [TS]

  consistent backup we talked about this [TS]

  before and every researcher with [TS]

  snapshots where time machine can take a [TS]

  snapshot of the drive as exists in a [TS]

  certain state and then just slowly back [TS]

  up front from that snapshot so it won't [TS]

  have to worry about like time machine [TS]

  ran for three hours and it's the run [TS]

  started backing up backed up these files [TS]

  but these files at backup three hours [TS]

  later so you have this weird mixture of [TS]

  different time periods and then it's [TS]

  like painting the golden gate bridge or [TS]

  whatever you got to go back to the [TS]

  beginning and find any towels to change [TS]

  you [TS]

  you're waiting for this period this sort [TS]

  of period of quiet when things have [TS]

  settled down [TS]

  don't worry about that was not just take [TS]

  a snapshot backup from their destroy the [TS]

  snapshot when you're done that will be [TS]

  great and also for the purpose of this [TS]

  is the next thing for the purpose of [TS]

  making multiple backups where the files [TS]

  that haven't changed the same sort of [TS]

  the time machine models you can go to [TS]

  the finder and browse your backups and [TS]

  they all look like complete copies of [TS]

  your data but of course they're not [TS]

  storing the unchanged data multiple [TS]

  times using hard links so hard links to [TS]

  files and harlington directories but [TS]

  you're gross and weird [TS]

  you don't have to have those anymore [TS]

  because of the the copyright stuff that [TS]

  a PFS has and you can do clones where [TS]

  you can clone an entire directory and so [TS]

  this entire directory tree make a copy [TS]

  of it but not really like it you can do [TS]

  it like basically in constant time [TS]

  you're not actually copying everything [TS]

  you just saying now there are two of [TS]

  these and they are independent copies if [TS]

  you would go into the copy and modify a [TS]

  file you're not modifying the file in [TS]

  both places like you would [TS]

  with a hard link or something it's [TS]

  copy-on-write so as soon as you modify [TS]

  one of the change files then they start [TS]

  to diverge but the actual copy operation [TS]

  is just a clone operation it'sit's very [TS]

  very fast one of the demos they did in [TS]

  the wwc session something that some [TS]

  people paranoid because they're like [TS]

  well frequently when I'm working on [TS]

  something i'll go to the finder and like [TS]

  duplicate it and like put the other one [TS]

  off to the side like poor man's version [TS]

  control you ever do that where you just [TS]

  make a copy of a folder just in case and [TS]

  put to the side all the time and it's [TS]

  like well but but sometimes i do that [TS]

  like what if one of the things gets [TS]

  corrupted this is a bad sector on disk [TS]

  well if my clone is an actual clone the [TS]

  bad sector and disc is going to blow [TS]

  away both of them are you know corrupt [TS]

  both of them because they're they share [TS]

  the same storage under the covers well [TS]

  if US doesn't dictate that every single [TS]

  copy is a clone [TS]

  there'll be two different API is I'm not [TS]

  sure which one the finder will use i'm [TS]

  assuming you will use the fast one [TS]

  but even the finer doesn't offer this [TS]

  feature there will be a way I'm sure [TS]

  from the command line but if not you [TS]

  write a program to be no dude like a [TS]

  regular copy where you just copied don't [TS]

  do the clone thing so that's another you [TS]

  I nuance that Apple have to decide how [TS]

  to navigate in the users we got to take [TS]

  advantage of and honestly I think it I [TS]

  think it's good that both feature [TS]

  sometimes i do want to make a clone of [TS]

  this gigantic directory tree for free in [TS]

  constant time and other times i want to [TS]

  say no actually copy every single one of [TS]

  this piece of data to a new play some [TS]

  disc because that's what i want and i [TS]

  look forward to hopefully it's like a [TS]

  modifier key you can hold down or [TS]

  something I look forward the that being [TS]

  exposed in the finder but I'm resigned [TS]

  to the fact that probably end up having [TS]

  to do it from the command line and the [TS]

  other fun thing about clones this is [TS]

  sort of travel purposes again this whole [TS]

  this whole file systems problems [TS]

  purposes is that it can be atomic Apple [TS]

  has a lot of things in the system [TS]

  including some file formats [TS]

  quote-unquote file formats that are [TS]

  actually directories full of files like [TS]

  dot RTF d is actually a directory full [TS]

  of a bunch of other things and in a [TS]

  simple application like USA teach text [TS]

  geez what the hell's a call text edit [TS]

  yeah i'm not going to text that it can [TS]

  make our tfd quorum court files which [TS]

  are really directory trees and when you [TS]

  save it's trying to do like a safe save [TS]

  where [TS]

  if the the plug gets pulled in the [TS]

  middle of your save operation you either [TS]

  have the new version of the file the old [TS]

  version you don't have like half and [TS]

  half so the atomic save operation now [TS]

  will do like this is also in the the WV [TS]

  session if i recall correctly it will [TS]

  like write the new version of the file [TS]

  to a new location rename the old one-two [TS]

  a weird name and rename the new [TS]

  directory on top of the old one but [TS]

  there's still a period in which things [TS]

  are inconsistent when you rename the old [TS]

  one-two to a new name but you haven't [TS]

  yet renamed the new one on top of it now [TS]

  you have two files neither which is [TS]

  named like the old one and they might [TS]

  both be hidden because you don't want [TS]

  people to see this weird stuff going on [TS]

  so it's not great a PFS you can do an [TS]

  atomic loan and so you can sort of her [TS]

  in one operation one atomic operation to [TS]

  completely do it completely not do it [TS]

  you have the old file you have the new [TS]

  file and of course it's superficial and [TS]

  all the stuff so that's that's going to [TS]

  mean it's gonna be four people writing [TS]

  applications that they have similar file [TS]

  formats it'll make those file formats [TS]

  more tenable because before was just [TS]

  kind of such a pain and you knew you had [TS]

  this race condition where things could [TS]

  be a weird weird state for a small [TS]

  period of time you can even see the [TS]

  finder sometimes because the finders now [TS]

  actually reactive to changes where if [TS]

  you watched when like text that saved [TS]

  you'd see these weird temporary files [TS]

  and a double file and rename on top of [TS]

  the other one and with cloning hopefully [TS]

  that will go so fast that you don't see [TS]

  it anymore [TS]

  yeah my favorite is since I've been [TS]

  doing a lot of switch development lately [TS]

  I just like Marco I've had a playground [TS]

  on my desktop and every time that the [TS]

  playground goes to save itself or if I [TS]

  save it it'll flash from the playground [TS]

  icon to the jit the gym generic folder [TS]

  icon and then back to the playground [TS]

  icon once finder catches up and realizes [TS]

  it's one of those like bundles is [TS]

  actually remember my future came to the [TS]

  fire like having having an efficient way [TS]

  to sort of tell the colonel hey I'm [TS]

  interested if anything happens to anyone [TS]

  of these files of anything changes one [TS]

  of these files I don't care what process [TS]

  it is analysis then let me know so i [TS]

  have to pull like the old model was like [TS]

  if you had a finder window open other [TS]

  applications were changing its like the [TS]

  Finder window periodically and it was [TS]

  pulling you would never catch changes [TS]

  that fast but because it's using KQ or [TS]

  FS events or some other system that is [TS]

  you know that's not pulling that the [TS]

  colonel will notify the finder [TS]

  it's fast enough to catch almost any [TS]

  changes that might still catch the clone [TS]

  but hopefully it will only like flash [TS]

  briefly and you'll see the old file and [TS]

  then blink in the new file and never [TS]

  will you see the the weird [TS]

  I've rename this to not be an RTF d [TS]

  anymore or not it not be a playground [TS]

  anymore or whatever i guess the final [TS]

  item of snapshots we talked about [TS]

  I wonder if there'll be any UI to that [TS]

  probably not because it's more like a [TS]

  programmatic thing time machine will be [TS]

  will be creating the leading snapshots [TS]

  behind the scenes but you don't need to [TS]

  see that programs like SuperDuper might [TS]

  create snapshots to to backup from but [TS]

  you don't need to see that either it'll [TS]

  probably do it through an API there will [TS]

  be a command line i'm sure i can't [TS]

  envision any particular reason for their [TS]

  to ever be a GUI for doing snapshot so I [TS]

  guess another third-party opportunity [TS]

  because it's a straightforward API you [TS]

  can make a cool third-party thing that [TS]

  lets you view and create and destroy [TS]

  snapshots I'm not making that up another [TS]

  idea for people who want to make an [TS]

  application that three people will buy [TS]

  you know John there's a lot of app ideas [TS]

  that I'm like you know I would love for [TS]

  this app to exist and you look around [TS]

  and just doesn't exist and at some point [TS]

  you got you know you're a programmer [TS]

  some point you gotta be like you know [TS]

  what i find i'm gonna make it [TS]

  well I i imagine someone will make [TS]

  that's not something like that you ever [TS]

  see like backup loop or the time machine [TS]

  browsing things let you like look at [TS]

  your time machine backup set or like [TS]

  their fancy interfaces to the TAMU tail [TS]

  command line there's lots of google apps [TS]

  like that i'm sure someone will make one [TS]

  just because if an app like this is easy [TS]

  to make all you're doing is making it [TS]

  more convenient to do stuff that you [TS]

  could do from the command line someone [TS]

  will make it so I feel like just by [TS]

  talking about it will it will come into [TS]

  existence [TS]

  yeah but you know what else though even [TS]

  if somebody makes it they're not going [TS]

  to make it your way [TS]

  truth that's true so you have to do it [TS]

  John it's obvious [TS]

  I'll say I I don't understand why when I [TS]

  would do any of these things like it's [TS]

  not like I have a lot of a time that's a [TS]

  knock your pipe with other stuff that i [TS]

  would rather be doing Brian ash the [TS]

  chapters made an excellent point he said [TS]

  that underscores listening and he just [TS]

  completed it which is probably accurate [TS]

  but he made the iOS version sauce [TS]

  good for me fair enough [TS]

  all right are we done with a PFS is that [TS]

  it yeah i think so like this we just do [TS]

  things we already talked about the WTC [TS]

  thing I don't think there's anything new [TS]

  we didn't have many questions from [TS]

  listeners about itself although i did no [TS]

  one has yet called me on the the [TS]

  mistakes i made about a ascii 7-bit [TS]

  ascii versus a bit ascii and utf-8 but i [TS]

  guess no one cares that's why I know I [TS]

  made the mistakes people who no no I [TS]

  made the mistakes is it really not [TS]

  mistakes just their errors of omission [TS]

  because doesn't make any sense I kept [TS]

  saying to 55 but obviously if you're [TS]

  going to use all 255 combinations of a [TS]

  bits you have no way to implement utf-8 [TS]

  and that's obviously not how it works [TS]

  so anyway we're sponsor this week by [TS]

  Harry's now Harry's is the only shaving [TS]

  company that has amazing quality low [TS]

  prices and modern convenience they sell [TS]

  razors and blades and you look at this [TS]

  stuff and it's great they recently sent [TS]

  me one of their newest kits like they [TS]

  say seasonally update their designs and [TS]

  stuff sometimes I like a special and [TS]

  they sent me some of their new stuff and [TS]

  this just this stuff to keep getting [TS]

  better and better at the handle is I got [TS]

  that that orange i believe the Truman [TS]

  set that the orange big on channel one [TS]

  and its like before at the silver one [TS]

  and they're both so nice like it's [TS]

  almost like actually seasonal cycle my [TS]

  razor handle these things are so nice [TS]

  they're classy looking they're nice and [TS]

  it's almost like a like a modern take on [TS]

  like madmen kind of aesthetic almost [TS]

  like mid-century but updated modern look [TS]

  for this stuff and this is such sharp [TS]

  such stark contrast to what you usually [TS]

  see in shaving equipment design from the [TS]

  big brands which is why I often describe [TS]

  it as like android commercial design or [TS]

  like weird like transformers but Harry's [TS]

  is not like that hair is nice and classy [TS]

  and the hairies blades are such good [TS]

  values i have not found a better value [TS]

  in the shaving world than the hairies [TS]

  blade so these are german-engineered [TS]

  five blade cartridges now you've seen [TS]

  five blade cartridges from other big [TS]

  brands Harry's is about half the price [TS]

  or less of these leading brands the [TS]

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  so check it out today go to Harry's [TS]

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  har ry if you use code ATP at [TS]

  checkout you'll get five dollars off [TS]

  your first order once again [TS]

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  order you will not believe the quality [TS]

  you get for the price and quality is [TS]

  guaranteed full refund if you're not [TS]

  happy [TS]

  check it out today promo [TS]

  code 84 five dollars off thanks a lot i [TS]

  have some important follow-up actually [TS]

  that surprise follow-up that you missed [TS]

  that part of the show but go ahead i [TS]

  have follow-up on hdmi-cec your favorite [TS]

  topic [TS]

  oh god oh I your hdmi-cec unicorn are no [TS]

  longer ever since i got the new Apple TV [TS]

  so what was that october november [TS]

  whatever whenever that was my TV is very [TS]

  old [TS]

  it's like a two thousand six ish [TS]

  panasonic plasma the appletv was not [TS]

  able to do anything else to it except [TS]

  any input given the opportunity remote [TS]

  it would automatically switch the input [TS]

  over to the apple TV so it was able to [TS]

  like steal the input the video input [TS]

  from the TV so which is really fun like [TS]

  if it's like playing a game on the [TS]

  playstation and then you like brush the [TS]

  remote and all of us on the inputs which [TS]

  is that was fun yet but so that and it [TS]

  couldn't turn the TV on but it could [TS]

  turn the TV off which was really nice [TS]

  every night you know we're not watching [TS]

  TV hold down the home button for a few [TS]

  seconds you put you hit sleep and both [TS]

  things turn off [TS]

  it's awesome and that worked flawlessly [TS]

  and now it just doesn't and it's so much [TS]

  worse and I've tried power cycling [TS]

  everything I have no idea what to do [TS]

  like nothing changed [TS]

  it's exactly like what you said it was [TS]

  like you know it'll work and i'll just [TS]

  stop working and you have no idea why [TS]

  and nothing fixes it like it just [TS]

  stopped and uh it's so frustrating now [TS]

  now like once you have that convenience [TS]

  to have to then go back and now I have [TS]

  to turn my TV off separately which means [TS]

  after like have the road out and [TS]

  everything it's uh [TS]

  this is like the worst like first world [TS]

  problem ever but I just wanted you to [TS]

  know John that hdmi-cec that your your [TS]

  your prediction came true that it never [TS]

  it never works all the time for [TS]

  everybody and if it does just wait [TS]

  well the good news is it'll start [TS]

  working again eventually to experience [TS]

  one day because like who knows what [TS]

  it'll be like you're disconnected or [TS]

  you'll reconnect something else or just [TS]

  it'll start working again I and back [TS]

  when we were discussing this I did hear [TS]

  from a lot of people like CC works fine [TS]

  to me sometimes I would hear from them [TS]

  again a couple months later go it [TS]

  stopped working exactly but not always i [TS]

  bet i like I just like their tactic [TS]

  Wizards their RCC unicorns who just have [TS]

  never had a problem and so like you know [TS]

  if they their luck continues it's [TS]

  possible to live a life force easy [TS]

  always works it just seems highly [TS]

  unlikely to me I've never met one of [TS]

  those people i'm sure they exist summer [TS]

  I mean someone's a lottery to write [TS]

  serious ? Oh have you gone into the [TS]

  settings to see because I could swear [TS]

  that in settings that has an option [TS]

  whether or not to UCC of course it's not [TS]

  labeled that way but it's like turn off [TS]

  the TV power when this when the appletv [TS]

  power turns off or something like that [TS]

  and not to say that you changed it but [TS]

  maybe like a software update flip that [TS]

  on you or something like that and maybe [TS]

  that's what did it you can you just [TS]

  check to make sure it's plugged in not [TS]

  to say that you unplugged it just maybe [TS]

  take out the plug [TS]

  sometimes sometimes as dust in the plug [TS]

  yeah he just wanted yeah just blow on [TS]

  the plug yeah the worst here here i have [TS]

  tried to help you and that's what I get [TS]

  fine i actually haven't checked the set [TS]

  there for the power thing though isn't [TS]

  there I are still in the remote [TS]

  yes yes so you can't you just do you use [TS]

  that for the power like take CC out of [TS]

  the equation just use the IR for the [TS]

  power for your TV I don't think there's [TS]

  a way to tell the apple TV like send the [TS]

  IR thing now I think it only works for [TS]

  volume control that's a little too but [TS]

  did might be worth looking into [TS]

  I know Joe steel loves his apple TV can [TS]

  ask him about it i mean honestly like [TS]

  I'm i'm very happy with the apple TV in [TS]

  most other ways like yeah the remote [TS]

  stupid but you know they're like the the [TS]

  software environment [TS]

  yes there are many flaws however having [TS]

  used the other TV boxes that are [TS]

  competing with this and you know even [TS]

  compared to the old Apple [TS]

  TV ice this is still the one I prefer [TS]

  and i still use it for you know very [TS]

  very heavy use everyday and it's [TS]

  unfortunate that it is not perfect of [TS]

  course but nothing ever is that it can't [TS]

  be complained about trying to try [TS]

  yeah also my world i mean you don't know [TS]

  if you remember you see my table with a [TS]

  thousand motabhai sec is against my [TS]

  religion [TS]

  I did not have it everywhere and i also [TS]

  have a thousand remotes and I don't have [TS]

  universal remote but here's the thing [TS]

  about thousand marks and never told work [TS]

  and I use the correct remote to do all [TS]

  the things they always work and there [TS]

  never any word interactions and the [TS]

  boxes don't know each other exists and [TS]

  that's the way it should be [TS]

  I didn't able it at 1.4 like my entire [TS]

  setup my setup is way too complicated [TS]

  for like I could barely get to work [TS]

  momentarily and like this is this [TS]

  untenable and I would see it break like [TS]

  within minutes because of me not turning [TS]

  things on the right or so i'm really [TS]

  turned it off everywhere with the shame [TS]

  because they're a couple of features [TS]

  features that i would like but i get x [TS]

  pretty well with all my remotes knowing [TS]

  how to do I our stuff so i can do volume [TS]

  up and down the TV and power on the TV [TS]

  from a bunch of different remotes but I [TS]

  are learning is fairly stable technology [TS]

  not like the sea stuff [TS]

  yeah and I'm also a guy i think i'm on [TS]

  your side in regards to the what appears [TS]

  to be your position on universal remotes [TS]

  I we we have a logitech harmony [TS]

  something or other and you know it when [TS]

  we when we bought it a few years ago to [TS]

  try to combat this this issue and i just [TS]

  had never we've never found a universal [TS]

  remote that is what that is actually [TS]

  like worth it's actually a net Dean you [TS]

  know like it's almost like like the xkcd [TS]

  comic of like you know all these [TS]

  standards are a mess [TS]

  what we need is a new standard like [TS]

  that's kind of what like it's like all I [TS]

  have too many remotes what I need is [TS]

  another remote and then you just have [TS]

  more remotes like and it and you can [TS]

  actually get rid of all the remotes [TS]

  because you still need them sometimes to [TS]

  do certain things and sometimes the [TS]

  universal remote like gets like one [TS]

  synced with the state of the things and [TS]

  so it thinks things are in a certain [TS]

  state that they're not in and it's just [TS]

  such a pain and then my mom I remote has [TS]

  firmware that needs to be updated it [TS]

  needs to be on my Wi-Fi network and then [TS]

  it's just like it [TS]

  mr. Payne it's it's such a pain I [TS]

  couldn't agree with that more we had a [TS]

  very old harmony or equivalent I don't [TS]

  know 34 years ago now and I didn't [TS]

  understand how it could possibly work [TS]

  until I realized that it was tracking [TS]

  the state of the system as best it could [TS]

  but just like you said it can't actually [TS]

  know the state of the system so it was [TS]

  constantly losing track of things and it [TS]

  would when it worked it was brilliant [TS]

  but it almost never worked and it was [TS]

  very frustrating and I continue to [TS]

  believe that a good universal remote [TS]

  would actually simplify things [TS]

  especially for the members of my family [TS]

  who are not me but as we discussed at [TS]

  some point about car stuff i'm a climate [TS]

  control a micromanager in the car [TS]

  like I want the individual controls for [TS]

  fan speed and temperature in which [TS]

  direction the air is flowing and I'm [TS]

  exactly the same way with TV i have a [TS]

  million remotes I know what all them do [TS]

  i know which things I want on for which [TS]

  shows at which time depending on my mood [TS]

  and just I you know as to exactly it it [TS]

  feels to me that the part of my brain is [TS]

  activated exactly the same part of my [TS]

  brain is activated by messing with [TS]

  climate controls in car and so I don't [TS]

  pretend this is an optimal setup but it [TS]

  has the advantages of being completely [TS]

  understandable to me and deterministic [TS]

  and I you know I micromanagement I I [TS]

  just you know when do I want the big [TS]

  speakers on your little ones do I want [TS]

  surrounding coding or is this thing [TS]

  stereo and then I want to turn on the [TS]

  dolby digital thing and don't want it [TS]

  down to like the apple TV apps like [TS]

  don't want to use infuse to try to get [TS]

  it descended the unmodified DTS and do [TS]

  the decoding on the appletv or do I want [TS]

  to let the imac do it and do it reflects [TS]

  and that's that's how i wish it was [TS]

  simple i wish there was one app in one [TS]

  box and one interface and all my stuff [TS]

  was in one place but that's just not the [TS]

  case and so since things are in a [TS]

  million other places having a million [TS]

  remotes in a million things to just [TS]

  seems like an honest representation of [TS]

  the reality where the hell my media is [TS]

  and I don't think it's unlearning able [TS]

  think I'm trying to see who was a [TS]

  second-place person in the family who [TS]

  understands the system it's probably one [TS]

  of my kids maybe my youngest I don't [TS]

  know nobody really understands fully [TS]

  except for me which is potentially a [TS]

  problem relation write something down [TS]

  like it hit by a bus here's how to watch [TS]

  TV [TS]

  and you and make fun of me for about 100 [TS]

  something that was vinyl this is just [TS]

  the interface was like I i I've never [TS]

  bought a universal remote but i assume i [TS]

  assume it would make things easier [TS]

  especially if you have universal remote [TS]

  to turn on CC everywhere then maybe [TS]

  would have a way to detect it could [TS]

  repair see screwed up in this but who [TS]

  knows maybe not have I still do have [TS]

  devices that are I are only ends you [TS]

  have that like ir blaster is another [TS]

  crack like that so you just like it for [TS]

  the ceremony it's a terribly inferior [TS]

  standard but you just like it's not it's [TS]

  not about ceremony so just like it's [TS]

  there's no ceremony to micro managing [TS]

  the climate control the cars just like [TS]

  well I know how I want the fan speed and [TS]

  I know what I want the temperature set [TS]

  to and I know if I want the coming out [TS]

  the top 10 to the bottom answer both of [TS]

  defroster I know all those things so i [TS]

  can just set him directly [TS]

  I am so happy that I don't stress about [TS]

  those sorts of things you know what I do [TS]

  in my car I hit the auto button and then [TS]

  I usually hit the All button that Marco [TS]

  wishes tips car had and then i set a [TS]

  temperature and then I don't friggin [TS]

  think about it anymore [TS]

  it's like the automatic transmission of [TS]

  climate control hey you okay see if you [TS]

  manage it yourself then it would just it [TS]

  would it would feel warmer and less [TS]

  artificial it would remind you of your [TS]

  childhood but this note there is no [TS]

  final analogy to be had here there's [TS]

  absolutely no kind of vinyl whatsoever [TS]

  because it's not like this [TS]

  the dead to the video or sound changes [TS]

  quality depending on what remotes I used [TS]

  to understand this is the violin algae [TS]

  go get thrown out the window you can't [TS]

  even throw back the suspense face to [TS]

  make fun of it makes no sense i can try [TS]

  visiting you know the employee you may [TS]

  not but the emoji of the woman with her [TS]

  arms like an across in front of her face [TS]

  I'm envisioning John doing that sitting [TS]

  in front of his his computer [TS]

  that's exactly what i look like we are [TS]

  sponsored tonight by amazon music now [TS]

  you might not know that if you have an [TS]

  amazon prime subscription to get fast [TS]

  shipping and stuff they have prime music [TS]

  and prime music is Amazon music service [TS]

  that you get unlimited access to over a [TS]

  million songs curated playlists and [TS]

  ad-free stations for all prime members [TS]

  and they have created a little looking [TS]

  like a trial playlist for you to hear [TS]

  yourself you want [TS]

  it's kinda tied into the rest of amazon [TS]

  music so that you can purchase songs [TS]

  individually you can stream for most [TS]

  devices ipads iphones android phones [TS]

  even sonos players of course amazon fire [TS]

  devices and of course amazon echo in [TS]

  fact they've created a cool playlist now [TS]

  if you go to Amazon songs of summer [TS]

  dot-com at amazon songs of summer calm / [TS]

  ATP they've created a playlist called [TS]

  songs of summer and you can go there to [TS]

  hear it or if you have an echo [TS]

  alexa play songs of summer and you'll [TS]

  start hearing it then and what they've [TS]

  done is they've gone out and they have [TS]

  commissioned a whole bunch of artists to [TS]

  create critically acclaimed new songs [TS]

  and unique covers of existing hits so [TS]

  they've come for this eclectic playlist [TS]

  of exclusive original songs and covers [TS]

  that love like you know various summer [TS]

  themes and these appeal to a wide [TS]

  audience [TS]

  now this is perfect for summertime [TS]

  listening in fact i listen to it Tiffany [TS]

  listen while you're cooking for dinner [TS]

  tonight because it is summertime I said [TS]

  that to my echo and it started playing [TS]

  and it was great [TS]

  you can check it out to with amazon [TS]

  prime music or just go to that link [TS]

  amazon songs of summer calm / ATP to [TS]

  hear it for yourself if you want to try [TS]

  out amazon prime music nice and easy to [TS]

  do that there to check it out they have [TS]

  a bunch of cool stuff there like I think [TS]

  they have all of weezer which is pretty [TS]

  cool that they have like their entire [TS]

  collection i think and of course you [TS]

  know if you have an echo [TS]

  it's even better and this is this is one [TS]

  of the biggest reasons to get an echo [TS]

  so check it out today go to amazon songs [TS]

  of summer dot-com / ATP to listen to the [TS]

  entire songs of summer playlist [TS]

  thanks a lot to Amazon music for [TS]

  sponsoring our show anyway we talk about [TS]

  email we talk about parenting what do [TS]

  you--what pick your poison [TS]

  oh man that's a tough one we did get a [TS]

  lot of feedback after the legs so at [TS]

  last episode we we kind of joked in the [TS]

  after show that if we weren't on the [TS]

  topics we're gonna have to talk about [TS]

  those things and then we got a lot of [TS]

  responses from people saying please talk [TS]

  about one or the other of those things [TS]

  and I think if i had to take a guess I [TS]

  think parenting might come out ahead i [TS]

  think so not parenting and specifically [TS]

  screen time for kids that's right yeah [TS]

  very very old piece of followed by and I [TS]

  think that was the one that's in the [TS]

  most Americans not like it's not stuff [TS]

  below it but Intel making chips for [TS]

  phones and Chromebooks outselling max [TS]

  and letterpress moving of Game Center [TS]

  there are other things but I feel like I [TS]

  don't feel like we're scraping the [TS]

  bottom of the barrel for this I think [TS]

  this is just a better topic than those [TS]

  other ones both of these I think are [TS]

  better topics the the quite the request [TS]

  was what exactly I let's say Peter [TS]

  Beardsley wrote in we still have this i [TS]

  was joking [TS]

  is he is no longer listening to the show [TS]

  but here and a half ago Peter Beardsley [TS]

  road and he has since retired it no [TS]

  longer even use computers anymore as [TS]

  kids are in college [TS]

  that's very true he had written in and [TS]

  said John has been talking about playing [TS]

  destiny with his kid marco post pictures [TS]

  of him playing games on an iPad the [TS]

  topic of quote-unquote screen time is a [TS]

  controversial one in my household how do [TS]

  you determine what is an appropriate [TS]

  amount my wife has her opinions and I [TS]

  have mine but i'd love to hear yours as [TS]

  well so at this point this is when we [TS]

  really anger anyone who we haven't [TS]

  angered yet in the entire course of the [TS]

  show now my most parents don't get angry [TS]

  like I think most parents are beaten [TS]

  down by reality and actually realize [TS]

  people have the parenting idea so it's a [TS]

  tiny minority of parents that are all [TS]

  high and mighty about was having kids is [TS]

  the best thing to teach you that you [TS]

  don't know the first thing about having [TS]

  kids but what happens after the as for [TS]

  the framing of this topic like it I i [TS]

  don't really and like not that I don't [TS]

  accept the premise but the premise [TS]

  itself it contains some opinionated [TS]

  information which is that screen time in [TS]

  quotes which is a phrase I think we've [TS]

  all heard from either from ourselves [TS]

  saying that other parents and stuff that [TS]

  there is the category of activities that [TS]

  your kid can do that involves them [TS]

  looking at a screen which is basically [TS]

  an electric [TS]

  sonic thing that shows moving images on [TS]

  it that that is a valid categorization [TS]

  like we don't talk about yellow sock [TS]

  time how much time you let your kids [TS]

  wear yellow socks how much time to let [TS]

  me touch the floor floor time like its [TS]

  screen time specifically and encoded in [TS]

  that is sort of a an unquestioning [TS]

  demonization to some degree of [TS]

  technology in that like why is reading a [TS]

  book not screen time if you read a book [TS]

  on an iPad does it become screen time [TS]

  because it's on a screen like that [TS]

  screens themselves like again I don't [TS]

  think this is it's not it's not like a [TS]

  heavy message but in in this in this [TS]

  word and this phrase in this entire [TS]

  concept in this question that comes up [TS]

  the idea of looking at a screen is a [TS]

  fundamental aspect of an activity i'm [TS]

  mostly rejected the book one is the best [TS]

  example because you know these days ago [TS]

  my kids are reading a book it's a [TS]

  wonderful feel great about it but if [TS]

  they're reading that same exact book on [TS]

  their iPad screen suddenly they're [TS]

  writing their brains and they're just [TS]

  gonna become little zombies in there [TS]

  staring at screens all the time [TS]

  same activity but one has a screen one [TS]

  doesn't so at least for me I don't [TS]

  categorize activities based on the piece [TS]

  of technology they're using I would more [TS]

  categorizes like what is the activity [TS]

  are they watching video what kind of [TS]

  video with this fiction and nonfiction [TS]

  you know and sometimes you throw [TS]

  something like oh they're watching [TS]

  YouTube but it's really just shorthand [TS]

  for categorizing the types of things [TS]

  that are on youtube in general they're [TS]

  not watching a feature-length movie on [TS]

  YouTube and mostly not watching like [TS]

  cereal TV show style things on youtube [TS]

  so YouTube was you know as kind of a [TS]

  definition but reading books watching [TS]

  movies many things happen in front of [TS]

  screens writing my daughter writes a lot [TS]

  and you know word processors right [TS]

  section and writes down lists and stuff [TS]

  that's also in front of a screen i [TS]

  categorize that entirely differently [TS]

  than her watching you know ever after [TS]

  high or whatever so that's that's my [TS]

  that's my opening statement i guess on [TS]

  screen time and how you guys do that a [TS]

  phrase that is used ever in your house [TS]

  or is that how you think about things at [TS]

  all [TS]

  yes some so it's a little bit different [TS]

  for me as compared to you guys because [TS]

  Declan is just today actually 20 months [TS]

  old and so he's not even two years we [TS]

  generally speaking [TS]

  avoided show well he had no interest in [TS]

  the TV for a long time and once he [TS]

  started to show an interest we and we [TS]

  avoided having the TV on when he was [TS]

  awake and around that still mostly the [TS]

  case we have started or Aaron because [TS]

  i'm at work at the time it has started [TS]

  showing him sesame street every day [TS]

  which he very very much enjoys and then [TS]

  we have my old iPad Mini that we have [TS]

  put a bunch of daniel tiger and sesame [TS]

  street episodes on and we'll use that [TS]

  only in desperation scenarios typically [TS]

  only when we're in the car because he [TS]

  doesn't particularly like the car but [TS]

  other than that we he's very rarely [TS]

  looking at a television screen or an [TS]

  iPad and i'm not saying that that's [TS]

  right but it feels for us like we should [TS]

  probably avoid it at least for now but [TS]

  again it's a little weird because he's [TS]

  only 20 months I mean he doesn't ease [TS]

  into it like Adam more like your kids [TS]

  would be I mean for us you know adam is [TS]

  in my kid is as for and he you know [TS]

  we've we've had we don't really draw the [TS]

  distinction we don't we don't use the [TS]

  term screen time or any any other a [TS]

  replacement term for that concept and [TS]

  yeah i think it's you know like so many [TS]

  things in parenting it depends on your [TS]

  kid in our case we never like [TS]

  specifically glorified think the screens [TS]

  or maid the maid forbidden thing or [TS]

  thing that was that was saved for like [TS]

  only special occasions [TS]

  you know it's like one toy with many in [TS]

  the house and Adam could choose to play [TS]

  with the ipad or can watch TV for a [TS]

  while or he can do other things and we [TS]

  haven't really had to set limits because [TS]

  the kind of kid he is at least so far he [TS]

  treats it like any other toy so I kill [TS]

  will be happy to play with the ipad for [TS]

  like you know maybe 20 minutes half hour [TS]

  and then want to do something else and i [TS]

  think that's that's kind of a healthy [TS]

  attitude for it because I mean our [TS]

  philosophy on this you know if it ever [TS]

  came to having to put in any kind of [TS]

  limits in 22 min healthy balances our [TS]

  philosophy is this is a world full of [TS]

  screens that we live in [TS]

  it's only getting more in that direction [TS]

  as we move forward you know [TS]

  time so Adam is growing up in a world [TS]

  full of screens to try to like keep him [TS]

  from that or limit that artificially in [TS]

  a way that would like you know make it [TS]

  weird like to deal with screens for him [TS]

  or two to make it like a rebellion is of [TS]

  sorts or like only a special treat [TS]

  doesn't really seem like that fits into [TS]

  the road we actually live in today you [TS]

  know I I get the idea of why people want [TS]

  to limit that and the end the and what [TS]

  people want their kids to do instead I [TS]

  guess be social or go outside whatever [TS]

  but I think if you're if you already [TS]

  have a reasonable balance and of of [TS]

  activities for your kid having having [TS]

  screens and things for screens be a part [TS]

  of that i don't i don't see it as any [TS]

  different from any other toys that he [TS]

  has so as kids get older like you said [TS]

  it really depends on your kid you the [TS]

  kids will start picking up more of their [TS]

  own interests like this especially young [TS]

  ages you can basically control [TS]

  everything we do you control the toys [TS]

  they play with because you buy the toys [TS]

  you can you can even control by not [TS]

  bringing them down the toilet you don't [TS]

  want them to see the toys that you're [TS]

  not going to buy them like when they're [TS]

  very young you you have a lot of control [TS]

  and so you can sort of provide the [TS]

  balance silly by-product providing a [TS]

  balance of things that you all approve [TS]

  of course kids get older starting minds [TS]

  of their own and depending on your kid [TS]

  they have different you know different [TS]

  preferences and they will gravitate [TS]

  towards something and then no matter [TS]

  what they gravitate towards maintaining [TS]

  what you think is a healthy balance may [TS]

  require some intervention but again i'd [TS]

  say that doesn't specifically apply to [TS]

  screen so for example if your kid starts [TS]

  getting older and becomes really into [TS]

  books and all they want to do all the [TS]

  time is go up to the room and read [TS]

  you're like oh I would be overjoyed if [TS]

  my kid read all the time but at a [TS]

  certain point they need to learn how to [TS]

  deal with other people and be social [TS]

  that's part of growing up too so you [TS]

  would may find yourself limiting book [TS]

  time because did you need your kid to [TS]

  socialize with other kids to learn how [TS]

  to deal with other people like you're [TS]

  trying to find the right balance for [TS]

  your kid which the balances in the same [TS]

  for everybody but most people would say [TS]

  like learning to deal with other people [TS]

  is part of growing up and you can't [TS]

  avoid it even if you're really really [TS]

  into whatever is your interest in making [TS]

  models are reading books are all these [TS]

  activities people think like a healthy [TS]

  and you know [TS]

  well that's a good thing to do like [TS]

  that's that's why i hate the screen the [TS]

  categorization of screens like they're [TS]

  certain activities are accepted by most [TS]

  parents as on a continuum of evil right [TS]

  so reading is one of the best you can do [TS]

  making models kind of in the middle [TS]

  making models that have electronics [TS]

  maybe getting a little worse [TS]

  anything that involves a television bad [TS]

  anything that involves computers could [TS]

  be good probably also bad video games [TS]

  universally bad right and that that that [TS]

  sort of a continuum that we all sort of [TS]

  agreed upon before we begin talking [TS]

  about balance [TS]

  I totally disagree with most of the [TS]

  reasons Marco said like we live in a [TS]

  world the screens we live in a world [TS]

  television we live in a world with [TS]

  recorded music like oh don't listen to [TS]

  those direct recorded music it's live [TS]

  music or nothing you'll rot your brain [TS]

  like as not the novel was condemned as [TS]

  something that will be the debt would be [TS]

  the downfall of humanity when it was [TS]

  introduced to sew through the lens of [TS]

  history it's obviously ridiculous to [TS]

  think about things that way but all of [TS]

  those mediums have things that that can [TS]

  provide your kid with something so if [TS]

  your kid is only reading is hard for me [TS]

  to find like it if they're only reading [TS]

  the same kind of simple story over and [TS]

  over again they're not really growing as [TS]

  a reader right if they're only watching [TS]

  the same kind of television show over [TS]

  and over again they're not really [TS]

  growing as a viewer of you know of [TS]

  moving pictures or whatever like and if [TS]

  they're only playing the same computer [TS]

  game over and over again they're not [TS]

  expanding outwards into that like that [TS]

  every medium and every form of input an [TS]

  activity has like your kids should be [TS]

  crawling up that ladder and becoming [TS]

  more sophisticated and learning and [TS]

  growing in all the activities that they [TS]

  do and if they're not thats you know [TS]

  something has to be aware but there's [TS]

  nothing inherent I believe in any of the [TS]

  specific activities makes them better or [TS]

  worse like I would rather my kids watch [TS]

  a YouTube video like a science youtube [TS]

  video then like read a silly book about [TS]

  fairies and rainbows that is two years [TS]

  below their grade level that they read [TS]

  50 times before like one of those uses [TS]

  screen and one of them is a book and [TS]

  suppose like the perfect thing we want [TS]

  our children to do but then you can't [TS]

  you can view them that way [TS]

  can slap them in by the by the media so [TS]

  that's definitely how I look at things [TS]

  and and I but I'm really for my kids [TS]

  mostly looking at what they are drawn to [TS]

  and figuring out what I have to put [TS]

  limits on based on what if I didn't put [TS]

  limits they would just do obsessively [TS]

  and it's not always watching television [TS]

  show or play video game it could be any [TS]

  activity they do obsessively one of my [TS]

  kids always wants to go and hang out [TS]

  with friends and my son mostly will stay [TS]

  inside and not see anybody so we're [TS]

  trying to push one out of the house all [TS]

  the time and the other one trying to get [TS]

  the calm down a lot so everything is [TS]

  different [TS]

  yeah I don't know what we're going to do [TS]

  in the future I think it's funny because [TS]

  i was very resentful of my parents or or [TS]

  extended family putting limits on our [TS]

  screen time like I think mark and I have [TS]

  talked about although maybe it never [TS]

  made it in the show when we were kids we [TS]

  want when we hung out so we are 108 1012 [TS]

  something like that yeah we would meet [TS]

  up and we would hang out and then my [TS]

  grandmother would inevitably or here or [TS]

  marcos momentarily tell us okay you've [TS]

  you've played enough on the computer [TS]

  it's time to go outside now [TS]

  yeah and I remember being really really [TS]

  resentful of that because i was happy we [TS]

  were having a great time and we were in [TS]

  some cases doing things that you could [TS]

  argue were productive like I vividly [TS]

  remember spending hours on the world's [TS]

  crappiest choose-your-own-adventure [TS]

  visual basic one-point game in in it [TS]

  wasn't always transport tycoon although [TS]

  damned if we didn't play like it's [TS]

  perfect but yeah that might have been [TS]

  more than half it nevertheless I've [TS]

  never i remember being so resentful of [TS]

  the of the get outside stick but here I [TS]

  am now apparent and i feel like i'm [TS]

  reverting into that same mindset of oh [TS]

  you probably shouldn't be playing on the [TS]

  ipad constantly which again he doesn't [TS]

  because he's so young but I could see it [TS]

  happening [TS]

  you probably shouldn't be on the ipad [TS]

  constantly should probably go outside in [TS]

  you I feel like it now is the time to [TS]

  instill within him that he needs to be a [TS]

  well-rounded person but I agree [TS]

  completely with what both of you said [TS]

  that the reality of the situation is [TS]

  that part [TS]

  being well-rounded in today's society is [TS]

  being comfortable in front of a screen [TS]

  so i don't know what the right answer is [TS]

  obviously and i'll have to kind of fake [TS]

  it til we make it [TS]

  well I guess you never really making [TS]

  parenting but you know what i mean and [TS]

  we'll see how it shakes out fake until [TS]

  they go to college [TS]

  yeah right it will see how it shakes out [TS]

  as he gets older and perhaps starts [TS]

  requesting these things but it's nice [TS]

  because like John it said we have that [TS]

  control now where he doesn't ever really [TS]

  see the ipad and so it's not it [TS]

  he won't know where ask for it unless we [TS]

  say to him do you want to watch Daniel [TS]

  Tiger do you want to watch Sesame Street [TS]

  or what have you [TS]

  I think it's also worth pointing out [TS]

  that you know we we as parents like it's [TS]

  the kids can look and see what we do and [TS]

  it it would be awfully hypocritical of [TS]

  us to say you know you need to limit [TS]

  your screen time while we sit there [TS]

  using screens for way more time during [TS]

  the day than that and like they know [TS]

  that they can see that like they're not [TS]

  gonna respect the rule or the parents [TS]

  making that rule if the parents [TS]

  themselves are blatantly violating it [TS]

  all the time [TS]

  yep I'm guilty of that well like I said [TS]

  you looking at the screen doesn't mean [TS]

  you're doing the same thing like I think [TS]

  my kids do differentiated roughly like [TS]

  they know what I'm working you know [TS]

  sometimes i'm working on my is I can [TS]

  tell the difference between between me [TS]

  working versus me reading Twitter resume [TS]

  watching youtube video which I might [TS]

  invite them to join to like oh it's it's [TS]

  the specific activity that's the issue [TS]

  an idea [TS]

  Casey mentioned in terms of like then [TS]

  becoming competent with screens and for [TS]

  the most part I don't think that's [TS]

  something we need to put an effort into [TS]

  it because it's it will be very unless [TS]

  your kid like it really doesn't like [TS]

  them at all and then you might want to [TS]

  make sure they have some minimum [TS]

  confidence but i don't think there's any [TS]

  effort we need to make this was going to [TS]

  happen right [TS]

  this day they can't help but be [TS]

  competent exist around by then because [TS]

  we have a million of these devices at [TS]

  home and then they'll see them at school [TS]

  and so that's gonna take care of itself [TS]

  but really what I'm thinking of is what [TS]

  are they doing like the fact that the [TS]

  screen doesn't doesn't is not a factor [TS]

  as far as I'm concerned because i don't [TS]

  think there's magic radiation writing [TS]

  their brains coming out of like back [TS]

  flat screens [TS]

  it's what are they actually doing are [TS]

  they learning something are they reading [TS]

  wikipedia pages are they if they're [TS]

  watching some kind of video is [TS]

  is it a television show that I approve [TS]

  of in terms of you know is it [TS]

  constructive in some way are they [TS]

  playing a game that is teaching them [TS]

  something instead of you know just being [TS]

  is you know is it age-appropriate a lot [TS]

  of you know is it should you be watching [TS]

  this television show this movie this [TS]

  youtube video whatever what are you [TS]

  getting out of this [TS]

  are you watching the same kind of thing [TS]

  over and over again are you playing the [TS]

  same kind of game over and over and of [TS]

  course as you'll see this is your kids [TS]

  get older I imagine this will not be a [TS]

  thing that goes away but anyone who has [TS]

  kids and double-digit ages knows that [TS]

  the thing of like multiple screens [TS]

  they're not my son is forever has his [TS]

  ipad playing youtube videos you know in [TS]

  a loop based on a loop like it with on [TS]

  autopilot like he doesn't pick the [TS]

  videos you just accept whatever plays [TS]

  next is the amazing power the YouTube [TS]

  has over our children listening to that [TS]

  on headphones while playing a video game [TS]

  on the television or on unlike the [TS]

  PlayStation on the monitor like so he's [TS]

  hearing audio from a youtube video while [TS]

  playing a video game and then I guess [TS]

  occasionally glancing down at that thing [TS]

  and his phone is also on the desk and so [TS]

  is getting texts from friends at the [TS]

  same time that you haven't [TS]

  how do you even parts that but that's [TS]

  the thing that people [TS]

  the thing that people [TS]

  all the time could do all the time these [TS]

  days so now you have to look at like the [TS]

  three things that they're doing is he [TS]

  communicating well with his friends [TS]

  what are the youtube videos that are [TS]

  playing are the youtube videos related [TS]

  to the game that he's playing he's [TS]

  trying to learn strategies and then [TS]

  implement them like for people who [TS]

  demonize video games that they may be [TS]

  like oh that's double bad that he's [TS]

  playing a stupid video game which I [TS]

  don't like and he's watching a video [TS]

  about how to play the video game what an [TS]

  incredible waste of time but essentially [TS]

  what he's doing is like skills that [TS]

  coming you know and not just for [TS]

  schoolwork but for regular work like [TS]

  where you have to learn how to do [TS]

  something sort of on the job while [TS]

  you're doing it and you want to be able [TS]

  to do the thing that you're doing better [TS]

  and so you're essentially doing research [TS]

  to 15 minutes it's very similar to [TS]

  programming and then just like going to [TS]

  the website looking at the documentation [TS]

  and having the code another window and [TS]

  having the web browser open over there [TS]

  like we all do that all the time [TS]

  this is the video game thing is the [TS]

  equivalent of that and I mean it really [TS]

  helps your game when you understand that [TS]

  these things aren't just all mine list [TS]

  that they're actually fairly complicated [TS]

  and you know i mean you know from [TS]

  transport tycoon like you learned things [TS]

  about it you don't have the internet [TS]

  probably in those days where you could [TS]

  look up awesome strategies for [TS]

  transporting texting and stuff but [TS]

  they're surprisingly deep in the skills [TS]

  you learn of able to like juggle [TS]

  strategies and write things down with a [TS]

  pencil paper and use them to excel this [TS]

  thing you're doing which is integrated [TS]

  kind of pointless but that's exactly [TS]

  what play is like it's supposed to be a [TS]

  sort of a trial run in a safe [TS]

  environment of skills that will come in [TS]

  handy later in life and more important [TS]

  situations or you become game developer [TS]

  and they transfer exactly so [TS]

  and you know I i would argue like school [TS]

  is pointless [TS]

  like most of what you do in school is [TS]

  pointless but the reason you do it is [TS]

  that it's it's an educational exercise [TS]

  to develop your brain in certain ways [TS]

  and games are often that same thing and [TS]

  even like things like television shows [TS]

  and movies like a lot of what i want my [TS]

  kids to learn when they watch media that [TS]

  I hopefully is constructed in some way [TS]

  is you see interpersonal relationships [TS]

  like you you have a certain amount of [TS]

  interpersonal relations that you get to [TS]

  try out when you go to school in your [TS]

  hair with your friends but you also [TS]

  learn from the media that you see how do [TS]

  people relate to each other [TS]

  what are the various anti-patterns how [TS]

  they relate how will i be treated if I [TS]

  act like this a lot of fiction sort of [TS]

  plays out those things especially kids [TS]

  fiction where the show [TS]

  the kid who's to concede or the the kid [TS]

  who's shy or bullying or like all you [TS]

  know very a lot of media for children [TS]

  eventually gets into all those topics [TS]

  and they're just like oh I'm just [TS]

  watching a TV show but i think people [TS]

  don't realize how much people and even [TS]

  reading books and stuff like that like [TS]

  fiction provides a way to try out [TS]

  activities you're not gonna actually try [TS]

  yourself but to see pretend people try [TS]

  them out and see the consequences which [TS]

  is why you have to keep your eye [TS]

  infection because if you fed your kids [TS]

  the wrong kind of pictures they couldn't [TS]

  get the wrong kind of idea about the way [TS]

  the world works so you have to that's [TS]

  what you have to sort of be on top of [TS]

  what they're look into or whatever and [TS]

  that's why you know when you're young is [TS]

  easy but later on they will start [TS]

  picking things on their own you have to [TS]

  sort of take an interest in what are you [TS]

  watching and you will have to watch a [TS]

  bunch of episodes of shows that you're [TS]

  not actually interested in because [TS]

  they're for kids but if you don't do [TS]

  that you have no idea what it is they're [TS]

  they're learning and taking away because [TS]

  they you know the same way they want you [TS]

  to learn how interpersonal relationships [TS]

  work they also learned that from fiction [TS]

  night I I think back to the number of [TS]

  things i learned about learned or miss [TS]

  learned about human nature from [TS]

  television movies and books from my [TS]

  childhood and it's surprising amount [TS]

  perhaps more than I learned from you [TS]

  know my parents actually telling me and [TS]

  sort of the sort of traditional [TS]

  parenting away like let me tell you why [TS]

  you should not be a bully and why you [TS]

  should be nice to your sister or [TS]

  whatever but when you bring all this up [TS]

  because I just the other day Aaron sent [TS]

  me an article she had found and we'll [TS]

  put in the show notes and the titles [TS]

  research shows preschoolers to watch [TS]

  daniel tiger's neighborhood develop [TS]

  social and emotional skills and this is [TS]

  a study by texas tech university [TS]

  apparently and what they did was they [TS]

  gave they had preschoolers watch like a [TS]

  nature show for a couple of weeks or [TS]

  watch Daniel tiger which if you're not [TS]

  familiar it's it's the spiritual [TS]

  successor to Mister Rogers which i [TS]

  assume is relevant even to like grits as [TS]

  well but mr. Rogers like an institution [TS]

  for kids in the u.s. well anyway so they [TS]

  the key quote here is in the study which [TS]

  will be published an upcoming issue to [TS]

  the journal of children and media [TS]

  hundred twenty-seven people preschoolers [TS]

  watched ten episodes of either daniel [TS]

  tiger's neighborhood or nature show / [TS]

  two-week period should we watch Daniel [TS]

  Tiger exhibited higher levels of empty [TS]

  cell [TS]

  if efficacy basically confidence in [TS]

  oneself in social situations and the [TS]

  ability to recognize emotions from a bar [TS]

  better ability to recognize those [TS]

  emotions then the kids who watch the [TS]

  nature show there's a kicker though in [TS]

  order for the kids to benefit from [TS]

  watching the show their regular TV [TS]

  watching experience has to be company [TS]

  accompanied by frequent parent-child [TS]

  conversations about the media content [TS]

  which is a part that i found most [TS]

  interesting it was yeah the show may not [TS]

  be a complete disaster in and of itself [TS]

  but for to really sink in and hit home [TS]

  it's up to Aaron and I to pay attention [TS]

  and talk to him as best as we can with [TS]

  the 20 month old about what he just saw [TS]

  and and that's something that we've [TS]

  taken a heart and although he hasn't [TS]

  seen Daniel tiger in the couple of days [TS]

  since since we found this article it's [TS]

  still something that we plan to do in [TS]

  the future and have something we're [TS]

  going to try to be better about the [TS]

  parenting institution of reading an [TS]

  article and then deciding this is how we [TS]

  have to parent differently because the [TS]

  article says it's a fair credit no it's [TS]

  a fair criticism but that's not a [TS]

  criticism we all do it like that because [TS]

  the end we all do it because we're all [TS]

  looking for well you know where we're [TS]

  looking for help right it's like someone [TS]

  have some ideas that i haven't tried [TS]

  i'll try those like we did exactly the [TS]

  same things like and speaking of his [TS]

  same same things about all the studies [TS]

  about how you shouldn't show your kid [TS]

  any sort of video very early in life [TS]

  which always made sense to me I mean we [TS]

  didn't need articles tell us that for [TS]

  the most part but like when your kid is [TS]

  changing from a little squishy larvae [TS]

  into like that does nothing and just [TS]

  pooped his pants all the time and you [TS]

  can barely hold its head up like that [TS]

  you they have to learn how to interact [TS]

  with the world and if kids very very [TS]

  young can be distracted by moving images [TS]

  that's taking time away from them [TS]

  learning like where's the floor where [TS]

  this is sealing what are these things [TS]

  poking out of my body and how do I [TS]

  control them right and so that's why i [TS]

  would imagine part of the rationale [TS]

  behind don't show very very young kids [TS]

  television or movies or other things [TS]

  that are irresistibly attractive and yet [TS]

  don't teach them anything about how to [TS]

  exist in the world because you're [TS]

  distracting them from important [TS]

  developmental milestones but once kids [TS]

  can actually walking talking and do [TS]

  stuff like that then moving pictures [TS]

  just part of the part of the same world [TS]

  as learning to read and [TS]

  learning to be more information and [TS]

  speaking of discussing things with your [TS]

  kids doesn't have to be after school [TS]

  style like I remember a lot of the shows [TS]

  i wanted my kids to watch my shows in [TS]

  which characters were similar ages and [TS]

  facing similar challenges i gotta know [TS]

  everyone hates Caillou but i would [TS]

  always be like remember that episode [TS]

  work I you found his shoes and tied them [TS]

  himself like you would reference things [TS]

  that I know he's seen on TV to give him [TS]

  a framework and like he would have two [TS]

  great as the first child and you know [TS]

  you both have your first child there at [TS]

  the grudgingly admit that yes I suppose [TS]

  it is it is reasonable for a child my [TS]

  age to be able to do this whereas [TS]

  depending on your kid maybe like this is [TS]

  an injustice I could never put on my own [TS]

  socks this is not a thing that happens [TS]

  my entire life you've been putting on my [TS]

  socks I was like do you want me to put [TS]

  on my socks [TS]

  that's ridiculous things I want Caillou [TS]

  doesn't he's your age and like hmm like [TS]

  it's kristen Caillou as real as anything [TS]

  else in the world right to discuss like [TS]

  a discussing what you seen but [TS]

  referencing what you know they've seen [TS]

  it in a way that's like it's like shared [TS]

  culture with your child in our stories [TS]

  you know they've read like it was just [TS]

  like in this book when that happened [TS]

  that we can apply the steer like not [TS]

  that listen to yours like oh you're [TS]

  totally right dad but at least you know [TS]

  you make your point and so if you just [TS]

  keep doing that eventually it will sink [TS]

  in and you have thoughts on screen time [TS]

  well so it sounds like none of us are in [TS]

  the camp of like oh I really limited and [TS]

  it's really important and I think it's [TS]

  worth saying that like like so many [TS]

  other things in parenting if people [TS]

  decide to do that in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things I don't think that makes like I [TS]

  don't think that's that's harmful like [TS]

  oh you know we we limit our kids to one [TS]

  hour screen time a day in the grand [TS]

  scheme of things [TS]

  that's probably fine like it everyone [TS]

  does has something that they have a [TS]

  hang-up about everyone thinks the [TS]

  correct balance is a different balance [TS]

  obviously you can go too far by [TS]

  demonizing and making a treat or [TS]

  whatever but bottom line is in the world [TS]

  we live in unless you are Amish and live [TS]

  away from everyone else and don't have [TS]

  electricity there's nothing you can do [TS]

  to stop your kids from learning to that [TS]

  learning to use screens wanting to use [TS]

  screens are going to be forced to use [TS]

  the most schools even public schools [TS]

  have integration with Google Docs and [TS]

  stuff they're going to use computers [TS]

  they're going to use smartphones they're [TS]

  going to want a smartphone they're going [TS]

  to get a smartphone eventually when [TS]

  there [TS]

  it's like there's nothing you can do to [TS]

  stop them from it's like trying to stop [TS]

  your kid from learning how the wheel [TS]

  works like you can't do it like it's [TS]

  going to happen so I don't much mind [TS]

  people who have particular policies [TS]

  about how long any activity should be [TS]

  doing how long should we spend on [TS]

  homework every night no screens after [TS]

  8pm know bringing your cell phone into [TS]

  your bedroom one hour using screen time [TS]

  is every Ward using out there are many [TS]

  things you can do to any activity to [TS]

  demonize there to make it the forbidden [TS]

  fruit or like it all really depends on [TS]

  your kid like my parents never let us [TS]

  have soda you would think all they had [TS]

  soda from you when you become an adult [TS]

  to be a soda fiend nope don't like it [TS]

  don't have it right don't have any sort [TS]

  of my house but I different kid being [TS]

  raised in exactly the same way that I [TS]

  was could have come out of that and say [TS]

  oh my god as soon as I get to live a [TS]

  mountain just breaks out all day [TS]

  same exact parenting different kid so as [TS]

  with everything in parenting they're [TS]

  only a series of differently wrong [TS]

  answers there's no right answer [TS]

  you sure you don't have like 37 or so [TS]

  tiny cans of sprite in your house i [TS]

  think i still do have 37 you know why I [TS]

  don't drink them [TS]

  okay we're gonna have to check out there [TS]

  still in the basement but believe me I [TS]

  if I wanted them they would be gone like [TS]

  the samoas were gone because those i do [TS]

  want [TS]

  alright thanks to our three sponsors [TS]

  this week [TS]

  Casper Harry's and amazon prime music [TS]

  and you'll see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin as it [TS]

  that's a dental death was accidental [TS]

  John racer Margo and Casey would like [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  and you can find the show know today [TS]

  DP die and if your twitter follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay RM Angie Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

  at Syracuse [TS]

  not caramel Delites like some others [TS]

  better firmly in this small camp since [TS]

  Moses it there [TS]

  they're good but they're just I think [TS]

  there's a little bit too much coconut [TS]

  too much coconut is all about the [TS]

  coconut the smallest have darker [TS]

  chocolate and then the coconuts roasted [TS]

  a little bit darker tone and they're [TS]

  actually around an octagon I don't [TS]

  remember what these are certainly heard [TS]

  of them but i know i don't like dark [TS]

  chocolate terribly much I don't like [TS]

  coconut terribly terribly much and I [TS]

  don't like caramel terribly have this is [TS]

  not that is not the cookie for you [TS]

  no definitely not these are girl scout [TS]

  cookies by the way oh yes that's right [TS]

  you're not in America Girl Scouts as a [TS]

  but how would you describe the Girl [TS]

  Scouts the thing little girls go to [TS]

  learn stuff that sounds dismissive but [TS]

  it's actually a reasonable summary [TS]

  yeah anyway they sell cookies to raise [TS]

  money for their girl scouting and those [TS]

  cookies are made by different [TS]

  manufacturers and cookies that look [TS]

  almost the same have different names and [TS]

  are made in a by different makers in [TS]

  different parts of the country and yeah [TS]

  I I you would think it's like whatever [TS]

  girl he grew grew up with those the ones [TS]

  that you love but I don't think that's [TS]

  entirely the case I think you just have [TS]

  to a/b test every single one of the [TS]

  cookies and see which version you like [TS]

  it's not it's not a clear victory for [TS]

  either one of the two manufacturers but [TS]

  small was definitely there everyone kind [TS]

  of like obsess over them but it's more [TS]

  like an artificial scarcity situation [TS]

  where like it only by the certain times [TS]

  a year like that's like and the reality [TS]

  is like almost all of them are delicious [TS]

  because they're really sugary unhealthy [TS]

  cookies like so of course it will be [TS]

  delicious like people obsess over [TS]

  certain flavors like I know I if I had [TS]

  to get the most popular ones are [TS]

  probably thin mints followed by samoas [TS]

  and followed by those are the peanut [TS]

  butter ones that the tagalogs tagalongs [TS]

  I think they may have different names [TS]

  those are very good too but there's not [TS]

  much scarcity in my house i can tell you [TS]

  the artificial scarcities like all the [TS]

  only sold certain times the BBQ by a [TS]

  billion boxes they never run out [TS]

  so according to wikipedia it's thin [TS]

  mints at twenty-five percent of the [TS]

  sales [TS]

  Wow caramel Delites I'm sorry some hours [TS]

  my bad [TS]

  same thing just different name samoas [TS]

  are nineteen percent dough sedo's which [TS]

  are peanut butter sandwiches are 16 [TS]

  % and peanut butter patties which are [TS]

  tagalongs are thirteen percent sure [TS]

  which are the ones that is the the the [TS]

  cookie and the peanut butter with [TS]

  chocolate wrapped around it that's [TS]

  tagalongs yeah those are good tagalogs [TS]

  crispy crispy vanilla cookies layered [TS]

  with peanut butter and covered it with a [TS]

  chocolaty coating those cold are amazing [TS]

  my particular favorite is the one that [TS]

  nobody ever buys or like swishes [TS]

  shortbread cookies which are trefoils [TS]

  for truffles I'm not sure you pronounce [TS]

  that but i like those yeah that's good i [TS]

  love those [TS]

  although i think i think all of them [TS]

  like I don't know I'm my cookie snob now [TS]

  I think all of them still basically it's [TS]

  like pre packaged cookies like they do [TS]

  the only ones that I think come close to [TS]

  being elevated to the level of something [TS]

  you might buy like a like a handmade [TS]

  thing in a bakery or the samoas and even [TS]

  those still more or less tastes like [TS]

  just manufactured cookies that I and my [TS]

  old age I get even more expensive tastes [TS]

  and now it's not like handmade in the [TS]

  end a bakery I'm gonna lie i kind of [TS]

  like well I I think of in the sense of [TS]

  do I want to spend my calories on this [TS]

  cookie or do I want to spend it on the [TS]

  most expensive ice cream i can possibly [TS]

  by the ice cream was it was it was [TS]

  incredible waste for facebook gelato [TS]

  things in the hard plastic containers [TS]

  who came up who came up with that idea I [TS]

  I feel terrible everytime i buy one of [TS]

  those terrible because they cost like [TS]

  six blocks terrible because they come [TS]

  with a hard plastic shell that I try to [TS]

  find some reason to use in the house but [TS]

  I don't put those in the dishwasher [TS]

  yeah learn that he isn't guess maybe I'm [TS]

  not maybe the kids will suffocate on [TS]

  those like you put kids toys & them or [TS]

  something or that the jar itself could [TS]

  be a kid's toy but kids can really [TS]

  suffocated on not be any we have we have [TS]

  a few of them around the house like that [TS]

  we've washed out and just like used for [TS]

  containers but the problem is it's kind [TS]

  of like you know those like when you [TS]

  order thai food and you get like 45 [TS]

  those black circular containers with the [TS]

  quick like the translucent white lids [TS]

  mmm [TS]

  you know we for a while we would watch [TS]

  those out and save them and reuse them [TS]

  for things [TS]

  yeah but the problem is like the rate at [TS]

  which we would order thai food [TS]

  dramatically outpaced the rate at which [TS]

  we could find user reviews and we have a [TS]

  similar problem with utility gelato [TS]

  containers we probably empty you roughly [TS]

  one or two of those a week so there's [TS]

  basically no way we can find another use [TS]

  for them around the house III said I [TS]

  seriously I seriously don't buy that [TS]

  because of the container like that [TS]

  there's literally stopping me from [TS]

  buying that product more right that and [TS]

  a couple of their their flavors so I [TS]

  feel I could be improved but that but I [TS]

  i go to the store and I'm like I'm kind [TS]

  of in the mood for that but I don't want [TS]

  that container is it just feels wasteful [TS]

  it's like speaking of buying take out [TS]

  like when i get food from one of the [TS]

  local Chinese would take out places and [TS]

  I really give you like a giant styrofoam [TS]

  container from the eighties Miami least [TS]

  18 but it's just like a big white giant [TS]

  thing of styrofoam this is not good for [TS]

  the environment there maybe it's better [TS]

  if I may be so made from like cornstarch [TS]

  and stuff and it's not like the Bad star [TS]

  from former your kids but it just feels [TS]

  wasteful like yeah i know that's if the [TS]

  people from delhi india are listening [TS]

  make more environmentally friendly [TS]

  containers and you'll sell more of your [TS]

  incredibly overpriced ice cream to me [TS]

  wait what is the name of this light [TS]

  screen its twenty how do you spell that [TS]

  tal enti ok so I'm actually like making [TS]

  an environmental statement by buying ben [TS]

  jerry's most of the time for myself [TS]

  because tiff is a tip is mostly tool NT [TS]

  i'm mostly ben jerry's you would you [TS]

  would the Avengers has the docks and [TS]

  sent bench you know the problem is like [TS]

  I i am happy to try other ice creams but [TS]

  ben & jerry's is it i just always go [TS]

  back to that like it is just so much [TS]

  better tasting to me than almost [TS]

  everything else and not just any like [TS]

  one particular flavor like just like [TS]

  their base ice cream is better tasting [TS]

  the most of them know that whatever [TS]

  chemical they're putting in this is as [TS]

  addicting you a guy I am I i do not i'm [TS]

  not don't have a particular brand mildly [TS]

  but I think haagen-dazs probably I think [TS]

  I'm probably more into haagen-dazs the [TS]

  most people at specific flavors but hard [TS]

  as I feel like if you that who has the [TS]

  best of analogy just have plain vanilla [TS]

  ice cream [TS]

  I think has the best vanilla yeah I go [TS]

  with you on that and so so else almond [TS]

  which is basically organized [TS]

  Noah with a little chocolate covered [TS]

  almonds is one of my favorite things [TS]

  ever but Ben & Jerry's new york super [TS]

  fudge chunk talking about has no flavor [TS]

  that competes with that so I'm equal [TS]

  opportunity overpriced ice cream eater [TS]

  so I have a controversial opinion about [TS]

  this and I'm surprised dryers dryers [TS]

  slow churned low-fat vanilla ice cream [TS]

  is the best Manolo found and i should [TS]

  say that was a Bluebell I think it's [TS]

  blue bell ice cream recently arrived in [TS]

  Virginia which I think started somewhere [TS]

  south of here and it was one of those [TS]

  things like 12 cheerwine which doesn't [TS]

  mean anything to you but to a [TS]

  chick-fil-a is a better example so only [TS]

  in South crawling northwards and every [TS]

  or sonic is another great example and [TS]

  everyone I knew had like known someone [TS]

  that that had had Bluebell and swore [TS]

  that it was the best ice cream in the [TS]

  entire world and I've had a few flavors [TS]

  of Bluebell I screen and I actually [TS]

  don't find it to be particularly tasty [TS]

  the dryer slow turn vanilla as stupid as [TS]

  that sounds I mean hey I loved I coke so [TS]

  I know everyone surprised love that I [TS]

  think my only ice cream snobbery is and [TS]

  it only extend so far is that I don't [TS]

  like ice creams that have things in the [TS]

  other than ice cream and i know ben & [TS]

  jerry's falls into that category like it [TS]

  doesn't you should just be like the old [TS]

  briars commercial sudden I really do [TS]

  like briars milk cream sugar they should [TS]

  know camino guar gum there should be no [TS]

  like other things and i know i know ben [TS]

  & jerry's has those like it's another [TS]

  reason i give a little bit of a noggin [TS]

  target has them to some degree as well [TS]

  but a lot of the non super premium [TS]

  brands have all sorts of crazy ass [TS]

  killers and then you can't stand them [TS]

  no i mean like a haagen dazs is really [TS]

  good for keeping the ingredient [TS]

  countdown but usually only for their [TS]

  basic flavors like once you have like [TS]

  you know fillings and like you know like [TS]

  other objects in the ice cream like [TS]

  almonds and stuff or you know or the [TS]

  flavors get more complicated that [TS]

  ingredient was climbs pretty fast and to [TS]

  follow briefly i'm on Casey's Bluebell [TS]

  thing i have not tried Bluebell but i [TS]

  have tried jen use which is i believe [TS]

  the Ohio [TS]

  version its je mi casa es this is like [TS]

  it's also like like a boutique ice cream [TS]

  maker and you can have to order them to [TS]

  be shipped to you in a frozen box [TS]

  I and I had them originally in a store [TS]

  in Ohio and i was visiting their few [TS]

  years back and it in the stores are just [TS]

  amazing their flavors that are really [TS]

  weird and so we ordered them like one [TS]

  time like first from spending [TS]

  Valentine's Day if you a couple years [TS]

  ago we ordered some like a Zach to treat [TS]

  ourselves and so I kind of try to bring [TS]

  back the experience of going to the [TS]

  stores and when you order little pints [TS]

  of of premium ice cream to be shipped to [TS]

  you in a truck [TS]

  it gets pretty expensive it ended up [TS]

  being something like eight or ten [TS]

  dollars a pint [TS]

  so you know and and it just wasn't it [TS]

  like some of the flavors were great some [TS]

  of them were just kind of weird so just [TS]

  like it wasn't really worth it if you if [TS]

  you can go to jenny's store i recommend [TS]

  it but i would not recommend ordering [TS]

  fancy ice cream on the internet it's [TS]

  just not worth it [TS]

  that's our dryer is a as I I don't not [TS]

  that familiar with that name but looking [TS]

  at the packaging I'm like that song of [TS]

  the ones that cellar I can't find the [TS]

  ingredients list for your particular [TS]

  slow churned thing but dryers grande [TS]

  vanilla bean milk cream sugar skim milk [TS]

  looking good so far corn syrup cellulose [TS]

  gum mono and diglycerides not good [TS]

  guar gum dextrose like lots of I don't [TS]

  need all that crap you can you can make [TS]

  good ice cream with just milk cream and [TS]

  sugar and vanilla bean like that dykey [TS]

  Marco said ben jerry's does it too [TS]

  I know they'll do it as soon as you [TS]

  start adding like feeling like oh this [TS]

  heath bars in here he's borrowed just [TS]

  full of crap like obviously and i go [TS]

  ingredients list because guess what [TS]

  these bars in there even just the sugar [TS]

  always has some weird stuff in it but uh [TS]

  I try to try to limit that's why I've [TS]

  always been a briars friend that priors [TS]

  for the most part especially if you [TS]

  don't do like extra creamy or light or [TS]

  any other type of thing where they need [TS]

  to add fillers to try to make the [TS]

  texture back to normal [TS]

  you just buy plain old full fat ice [TS]

  cream or make it yourself we have a nice [TS]

  Commission to make it occasionally it [TS]

  like seriously you just need you just [TS]

  need milk cream sugar and it makes ice [TS]

  cream and is really good and vanilla [TS]

  beans so there's no reason for anything [TS]

  else unless you start taking stuff out [TS]

  or [TS]

  want to make it seem creamier than it [TS]

  actually is this was from a grocery [TS]

  store [TS]

  this is for my slow churned vanilla bean [TS]

  nonfat milk cream sugar corn syrup when [TS]

  I think that at this point I'm out [TS]

  that's all it takes the corn syrup is [TS]

  all right now I mean you know it's sure [TS]

  but you keep going on this is that other [TS]

  fillers that I think more objectionable [TS]

  corn syrup whey protein buttermilk [TS]

  molasses acacia gum carob bean gum guar [TS]

  gum natural flavors grande vanilla beans [TS]

  and whoa carrageenan yeah that's that [TS]

  there's the red stuff to squeeze out of [TS]

  bed bugs weird that's kind of gross [TS]

  anyway that's the entire ingredient list [TS]

  so does that's real time follow-up [TS]

  Carradine and is from edible red seaweed [TS]

  not from red bugs the different thing [TS]

  that comes from red bugs important [TS]

  research on a TV that that's that's too [TS]

  much try breyers vanilla and to see what [TS]

  you're missing [TS]

  I'm sure it's good and i'm not saying [TS]

  that this is the best ever but this is [TS]

  like my go-to ice cream and partially [TS]

  because it is slightly lower fat but you [TS]

  can change your go-to ice cream right [TS]

  that I could I could you could start [TS]

  drinking sprite you know I mean Saturn [TS]

  used to be your go-to car right [TS]

  oh those were the days til the wheels [TS]

  fell off yeah it was great car until [TS]

  then great stereos who [TS]