The Accidental Tech Podcast

179: Free-to-Play Dogs


  you know those are those are free to [TS]

  play dogs we got some feedback with [TS]

  regard to my maybe maybe not know I [TS]

  guess it is definitely ailing but we [TS]

  don't know why I mac an anonymous Apple [TS]

  Genius wrote in and i'd like to read [TS]

  this is pretty much their entire email [TS]

  they said I see failures exactly like [TS]

  the one you're describing the hanging [TS]

  after waking from sleep after swapping [TS]

  the stock ran back in not the reboots [TS]

  the reboots were almost certainly owc [TS]

  ram that do trackback to this to the GPU [TS]

  for sure but much more frequently it is [TS]

  just Apple not having its stuff together [TS]

  software wise also nothing makes me [TS]

  sadder than someone dropping off a [TS]

  machine that's experiencing an [TS]

  intermittent issue and it just sits [TS]

  there for a week running stress testing [TS]

  or diagnostics and we have to give it [TS]

  back with a shrug when we find nothing [TS]

  or worse when people are so utterly [TS]

  convinced as Marco that the that a [TS]

  problem is quote definitely hardware [TS]

  quote that we get bullied into replacing [TS]

  parts anyway for customer appeasement / [TS]

  theater for failure that can't be [TS]

  replicated and then have that person [TS]

  pick up the machine and it's still [TS]

  having the same issue because that issue [TS]

  was never the hardware in the first [TS]

  place [TS]

  don't jump the gun be sure it's hardware [TS]

  before you come in and we'll be able to [TS]

  get it right the first time [TS]

  signed apple genius best of luck and [TS]

  don't listen to Marco sunglasses emoji [TS]

  that is actually part of the email which [TS]

  made me laugh so you have so this [TS]

  particular genius said it could I may [TS]

  may not be crazy and I have gotten a lot [TS]

  of feedback about the imac and i am [TS]

  happy to report that it was split about [TS]

  right down the middle half the people [TS]

  said I was insane for not bringing it in [TS]

  and have people said I totally feel you [TS]

  and you're doing the right thing [TS]

  oh we should clarify you know this [TS]

  because you made a pie chart i did I I [TS]

  went full business on this because i [TS]

  always carry it i was curious how this [TS]

  is gonna play out because I share this [TS]

  pie-chart oh yeah if you want i mean you [TS]

  can like droplet or something red sheet [TS]

  right you just made that it's a [TS]

  spreadsheet and the graph is from the [TS]

  spreadsheet is a google google sheets [TS]

  thing or whatever it is a Google sheet [TS]

  yeah so i probably could drop the sheet [TS]

  if I really felt like it but i probably [TS]

  won't because it's mostly irrelevant but [TS]

  suffice to say i have tried [TS]

  act just line items and I are attracted [TS]

  feedback as line items I've split into [TS]

  four categories pro Casey antique AC [TS]

  jokes which is the beginning I thought [TS]

  we're going to be far more frequent than [TS]

  they were it ended up being only three [TS]

  of them but let go just spilled water on [TS]

  it again haha [TS]

  and that was basically all three of them [TS]

  and then neutral post which were [TS]

  sometimes people saying like oh I can [TS]

  understand your not wanting to bring it [TS]

  in but maybe you should or oh we have [TS]

  you tried using this memory testing tool [TS]

  etc etc etc and so it has been 49 and a [TS]

  half percent as for my fancy little [TS]

  spreadsheet that has have been in the [TS]

  pro Casey camp and between the anti [TS]

  Casey and neutral posts [TS]

  that's another 47.7 percent so there you [TS]

  go [TS]

  so so I have to ask the obvious question [TS]

  which is has your Mac had any problems [TS]

  since a week ago it has indeed but I can [TS]

  explain these way as well don't you [TS]

  worry [TS]

  so as it turns out it has rebooted [TS]

  itself twice but I am I hold on with our [TS]

  a minute [TS]

  yes hold on though that is because hold [TS]

  on [TS]

  that's because I've had power failures [TS]

  both times and that is the end the imac [TS]

  is not connected to my UPS all right [TS]

  well that's not rebooting itself that's [TS]

  a different thing [TS]

  yeah it doesn't count but that's why i [TS]

  said it's not it's it has had an issue [TS]

  but its not its fault so that's not an [TS]

  issue [TS]

  well I mean I don't want it to reboot [TS]

  itself but I mean when the powers of [TS]

  yang there's nothing you can do is [TS]

  perhaps the best reason for you to bring [TS]

  this in for what may be one of several [TS]

  frustrating visits to the apple store is [TS]

  that if you don't every single week on [TS]

  the show we are going to ask you how how [TS]

  is the you know any new issues because [TS]

  it's been on kind of like a week [TS]

  interval right so every week there's a [TS]

  potential that something could happen [TS]

  that's correct although like these power [TS]

  outages are really messing with the with [TS]

  whatever the interval was uh I know it's [TS]

  it's the worst [TS]

  ok so it's a follow-up question because [TS]

  the following section of the show he you [TS]

  have a you know a three-thousand-dollar [TS]

  high-end computer that uses your primary [TS]

  computer at home you have a UPS why is [TS]

  this computer not plugged into the [TS]

  UPS well so it's plugged into the non [TS]

  battery portion of the UPS because the [TS]

  priority is the technology and [TS]

  associated paraphernalia like my ear oh [TS]

  and my router and all that other stuff [TS]

  and it's not that big a deal to me if [TS]

  this thing just croaks welts on as we've [TS]

  already demonstrated hfs+ it's a big [TS]

  deal em too shy i actually do in 10-20 [TS]

  bring this up because i had intended to [TS]

  move it over to the battery side i just [TS]

  haven't had the chance yet and we almost [TS]

  never lose power here it's we've just [TS]

  had a couple of really really crummy [TS]

  really really crummy summer [TS]

  thunderstorms and it's just so happen [TS]

  that we've lost power long enough for [TS]

  you know it's been more than just a [TS]

  flash it's been long enough for this [TS]

  thing to get upset [TS]

  yeah so it's on my to-do list move it to [TS]

  the other side of the power strip thing [TS]

  do as I power left in your thingy like [TS]

  whatever size the ups's yeah you knowing [TS]

  that was that was the reason why wasn't [TS]

  there already is because i wanted to [TS]

  give as much time as possible to the [TS]

  synology because my hypothetical here is [TS]

  that I'm gonna be in a situation where i [TS]

  don't have the ability to turn the [TS]

  synology off and this actually came up [TS]

  when we were in San Francisco together [TS]

  we were all Jason smells my watch [TS]

  started going berserk because i was [TS]

  getting push notifications from the [TS]

  technology that the power is going on [TS]

  and off and on and off and on and off [TS]

  and on and off and i actually asked [TS]

  Jason if he wouldn't mind if I used his [TS]

  5k imac to log into the synology and [TS]

  shut itself down because I didn't want [TS]

  it to you know violently dye it if the [TS]

  power and stayed off long enough and so [TS]

  that's why i have the synology on the [TS]

  UPS but i kept the imac off of it [TS]

  because I wanted all available power to [TS]

  the technology so it can hang on as long [TS]

  as possible in the event of a power [TS]

  outage like I said this has been very [TS]

  peculiar because generally we don't have [TS]

  any issues with power here and we we [TS]

  used to have them relatively frequently [TS]

  but there was a tree branch on the lines [TS]

  right outside my neighborhood and [TS]

  everything's in ground in the [TS]

  neighborhood and that tree branches cut [TS]

  cut back by the power company a year or [TS]

  two ago for exactly this reason to [TS]

  prevent this from happening it's just [TS]

  been a peculiar lately that I've lost [TS]

  power a lot so I my to-do list remove [TS]

  the imac over to the battery side of the [TS]

  eps I just haven't had the chance yet [TS]

  when I just unplug it right now because [TS]

  it doesn't matter what do you remember [TS]

  the violent death of the things that [TS]

  this anthology will shut itself down the [TS]

  UPS battery that's true sir actually I'm [TS]

  glad you brought that up because that [TS]

  you're absolutely right i'm sure i've [TS]

  never actually tested that in so I'm [TS]

  just scared i tested it unintentionally [TS]

  and also get better get push [TS]

  notifications i get emails every time we [TS]

  vacuum in the basement the technology [TS]

  sends me email about going to UPS and [TS]

  then going back to power because it's [TS]

  like a flicker when you Empire up the [TS]

  air the vacuum on the same circuit as [TS]

  the am I my house is under the panel and [TS]

  my house is undersized for the things we [TS]

  have done it anyway I've tested many [TS]

  times where we lost power for long [TS]

  enough and it sends me emails then I [TS]

  think it also sends you know it's like [TS]

  well pump shutting down by and then when [TS]

  it comes back on i forget if you get the [TS]

  goodbye email but you certainly get the [TS]

  turning back online and yeah there's a [TS]

  setting in the thing where you can tell [TS]

  it when what percentage shutdown or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  yeah I have that turned on like i said i [TS]

  was just scared of it and i should add [TS]

  just for interesting that the way I got [TS]

  push notifications was by an app called [TS]

  pushover which it i'm sure there's other [TS]

  ones like this but basically i get a [TS]

  unique email from the pushover company [TS]

  that i have the synology send emails to [TS]

  and then that gets forwarded actually if [TS]

  this and that probably does something [TS]

  like this that a that email gets [TS]

  forwarded to my iphone and then to my [TS]

  watch is so the push notification [TS]

  getting is really just that same email [TS]

  that you're getting I just having I'm [TS]

  having it forwarded on to a to a service [TS]

  that will send the push notification so [TS]

  just pro tip but yeah I should I should [TS]

  definitely move this over to the battery [TS]

  side for sure i wanted to talk a little [TS]

  bit more about pokemon I after we [TS]

  recorded last week there were a couple [TS]

  of interest or whether there was one [TS]

  trend i notice what I just thought was [TS]

  fascinating and i noticed two local well [TS]

  what was once a museum was a park the [TS]

  Science Museum of Virginia which is here [TS]

  in richmond i had posted on their [TS]

  facebook page i kind of feel like such [TS]

  an old person i say that but i think [TS]

  that is the proper vernacular looking to [TS]

  catch somewhere pokemon while [TS]

  all seeing some pretty incredible [TS]

  hashtag science this weekend the [TS]

  museum's pokey stops will have a hashtag [TS]

  learning modules planted to attract wild [TS]

  hashtag pokemon while our exhibits are [TS]

  filled with old with Jana so I'm [TS]

  supposed to say the Museum of Science [TS]

  Museum Virginia had taken it upon [TS]

  themselves to install lawyers in the [TS]

  pokey stops that are probably one or [TS]

  more focused stops that's at the science [TS]

  museum to try to attract people to come [TS]

  visit which I thought was really [TS]

  interesting and then may not park which [TS]

  is a park also here in richmond and [TS]

  that's actually where where Aaron and I [TS]

  got engaged [TS]

  pokemon go catch them all at me months [TS]

  and there's a cage clearly photoshopped [TS]

  picture of of a family looking at one of [TS]

  the pokemon pokeyman pokeyman etc [TS]

  whatever its called [TS]

  anyway the point being they did an [TS]

  after-hours exclusive event where for [TS]

  ten dollars a person you can go to [TS]

  maymont park which is beautiful and it's [TS]

  free generally but it's absolutely worth [TS]

  going to [TS]

  yeah lots of join us for an exclusive [TS]

  after-hours pokemon go event as we [TS]

  activate lures in the app and explore [TS]

  the grounds in search of mysterious [TS]

  creatures that only come out at night [TS]

  $10 a person five if you remember adults [TS]

  must accompany children ages 15 and [TS]

  under the tickets are limited to the [TS]

  first 300 register registrants oh [TS]

  actually that's happening a week from [TS]

  tomorrow as it turns out so I just [TS]

  thought that this was really interesting [TS]

  that these local businesses and guilt [TS]

  museums and parks which I don't have the [TS]

  perception of being slightly starting to [TS]

  me even the science museum i got on this [TS]

  bandwagon of getting people to spend [TS]

  actual money playing this game but the [TS]

  money they're spending isn't on the game [TS]

  it's with these venues I just I thought [TS]

  it was really really clever idea and not [TS]

  unique to Richmond but it it just popped [TS]

  up on my radar because these are local [TS]

  places i thought it was cool [TS]

  what do you think the chances are that [TS]

  the games servers will actually hold you [TS]

  know number one hold up in that area and [TS]

  number two work properly so like [TS]

  everybody would actually see the Lord's [TS]

  and everything [TS]

  a week from now who knows right now the [TS]

  the frustration of my household of the [TS]

  servers are always down like my wife and [TS]

  children have taken up the game either [TS]

  and what do you think having been in the [TS]

  proximity of the game now every time I [TS]

  went on walks with them i use my stone [TS]

  to to catch some for her she's into it [TS]

  they're into its good excuse to walk [TS]

  around in fact I think they're probably [TS]

  still out now even though it's like dark [TS]

  because the servers were down there were [TS]

  we're gonna go on a walk to catch [TS]

  program but the servers have been out [TS]

  until very recently tonight so they're [TS]

  basically down anytime you want to do it [TS]

  hey everyone's home from work and kids [TS]

  are home from camp or whatever let's go [TS]

  hunting for pokemon and that's exactly [TS]

  when the servers are down and I guess [TS]

  enough kids went to bed the server [TS]

  backup anyway it's frustrating the most [TS]

  heartwarming story i read about pokemon [TS]

  which is on the internet so must be true [TS]

  is that an animal shelter had a posting [TS]

  that says basically if you if you want [TS]

  to play pokemon but you're embarrassed [TS]

  to let people see you playing which he [TS]

  shouldn't be but you know if you're [TS]

  embarrassed if you love you playing [TS]

  pokemon come to our dog shelter and four [TS]

  five dollars an hour you can rent one of [TS]

  our dogs and walk it haha don't look [TS]

  like you're walking a dog when really [TS]

  you're hunting for pokemon so here are [TS]

  the results of this they now have a [TS]

  waiting list of people who want to pay [TS]

  for the privilege of walking a dog they [TS]

  made so much money on rental fees for [TS]

  the dogs that they've waived the [TS]

  adoption fees when people running dogs [TS]

  are out walking they post pictures of [TS]

  themselves playing the game on facebook [TS]

  instagram people are then coming to the [TS]

  shelter asking to adopt the specific [TS]

  dogs they saw in the pictures of these [TS]

  two occasions people have called the [TS]

  Challenger and said hey I didn't think I [TS]

  really wanted a dog but me and this dog [TS]

  get along really well so i'm not [TS]

  bringing him back and the shelter [TS]

  currently has no dogs available to rent [TS]

  and there's a waiting list all the dogs [TS]

  have been adopted they're bringing in [TS]

  new york some other shelters [TS]

  that's amazing that's great if even if [TS]

  even if that's only half true that's [TS]

  still great and I hope it's all true [TS]

  yeah I completely great like the idea at [TS]

  the best part of that again if it's true [TS]

  as a kid instead of paying people to [TS]

  like the shelters like we have all these [TS]

  dogs and we don't have enough staff [TS]

  members to walk that way we get people [TS]

  come back to walk through the reversing [TS]

  the cash flow come to us pay us to walk [TS]

  our dog it's like that usually like [TS]

  begging for volunteers to come do it for [TS]

  free right and that all the dogs get [TS]

  adopted away because of the magic of [TS]

  social media that the dog pad his dog [TS]

  shelters empty have to pull from other [TS]

  dog shelter was also like you know so [TS]

  often people come up with the idea or [TS]

  wouldn't be great if you could rent [TS]

  puppies [TS]

  hubby rental is a really cool sounding [TS]

  idea for about four seconds until you [TS]

  think about the reality of what that [TS]

  doesn't actually be like if you're like [TS]

  oh that's horrible but grown dog rental [TS]

  from like a shelter where these dogs [TS]

  have nobody else and really need people [TS]

  that flips it around completely like [TS]

  that's that takes this great sounding [TS]

  for a second but ultimately terrible [TS]

  idea and make him something endearing [TS]

  and and positive and overall pleasant I [TS]

  I honestly really hope it was real [TS]

  yeah I I have my doubts but i really [TS]

  hope it's real you know what those are [TS]

  those are free to play dogs see things [TS]

  that they don't because they're like you [TS]

  know what I really like this dog i want [TS]

  to adopt and then you essentially done [TS]

  in app purchase for you know a dozen [TS]

  years of paying for vet bills and dog [TS]

  food and all the other things you have [TS]

  to pay for you just it's free-to-play is [TS]

  free to walk the dog but it's a trap [TS]

  because they know based on human nature [TS]

  the dogs are adorable and people are [TS]

  gonna fall in love with them and then [TS]

  they get the big bucks [TS]

  yeah the final the final delightful [TS]

  things that apparently this this bubble [TS]

  has boosted nintendo stock price so much [TS]

  that their market cap is now bigger than [TS]

  sony its business so I i do wonder do [TS]

  you guys think that Pokemon go is [TS]

  actually going to still be relevant even [TS]

  in a week you know again you know it [TS]

  basically to what degree do you think [TS]

  this is just like a big spike fall by a [TS]

  big crashes just fat or do you think [TS]

  it's gonna actually stick around as like [TS]

  a game people play for for a pretty long [TS]

  time how's my question last week was [TS]

  like that new trainers because Pokemon [TS]

  has always been popular every time your [TS]

  pok√©mon game comes out all the people [TS]

  who are rabid Pokemon fans who buy every [TS]

  single game by it the question is how [TS]

  many more of those people does this make [TS]

  because yeah there's going to be a [TS]

  dropoff like oh I play this when I was [TS]

  really popular but I wasn't into it [TS]

  enough to become a dedicated fan of the [TS]

  franchise so when the next game comes [TS]

  out you see how many of those people [TS]

  come back and i think it it has to add [TS]

  more fans like just because it's got so [TS]

  much exposure to people who've never [TS]

  played pokemon games before it has to [TS]

  add more not sure how much more [TS]

  certainly this spike is an aberration [TS]

  and I don't expect intend to keep every [TS]

  single one of the people who are playing [TS]

  well as long term dedicated players of [TS]

  the franchise you know I to put things [TS]

  in perspective it i think its recently [TS]

  as a couple of weeks ago I was visiting [TS]

  with my parents and they were still [TS]

  playing words with friends so I mean [TS]

  these things can be sticky and I think [TS]

  this is going to be at least in part a [TS]

  flash-in-the-pan flash-in-the-pan but i [TS]

  think it given the pokemon yellow bet [TS]

  the backstory and and how many people [TS]

  have enjoyed it so much in the past i [TS]

  think it will be a lot stickier than [TS]

  most of these other things like for [TS]

  example draw something which was all [TS]

  this is amazing LOL ok nobody cares [TS]

  yeah right dress up as a higher bar and [TS]

  your parents still playing that same [TS]

  game is not really helping the word for [TS]

  helping zing or whatever unless they're [TS]

  dumping more money into it right the [TS]

  whole question for the the games like [TS]

  pokemon is when we come out with the [TS]

  inevitable improve sequel will you do [TS]

  that one too and also liked it last week [TS]

  alright have you ever put any money into [TS]

  this is all your money going to rent [TS]

  dogs to walk like where is the money [TS]

  going like obviously there are people [TS]

  who are putting money into this game is [TS]

  going to make money for all the people [TS]

  involved but it's not the money is [TS]

  coming from a small number of people who [TS]

  spend a lot and almost everybody else it [TS]

  seems like you're spending nothing so [TS]

  far no one in my family spent anything [TS]

  either [TS]

  yep I just I'm really fascinated by the [TS]

  way in which the the real world and the [TS]

  you know this this electronic this [TS]

  entertainment world have collided and [TS]

  I've been I mean there's been some [TS]

  crummy stories coming out of it because [TS]

  humans are terrible but I just been I [TS]

  thought it was so need and i still think [TS]

  it's so neat and such an interesting an [TS]

  interesting investigation into how these [TS]

  things kind of come together and and in [TS]

  an interesting case study if you'll [TS]

  permit me to use a terrible business [TS]

  term it's been fascinating to watch so [TS]

  very cool stuff [TS]

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  softbank which is a Japanese company are [TS]

  they a cell phone carrier or I don't [TS]

  know much about them they're like a [TS]

  holding company i think they do have [TS]

  their telecommunication somebody do have [TS]

  like a cell phone ring [TS]

  okay well regardless they have bought [TS]

  arm 432 billion dollars haven't bought [TS]

  want to buy from the process of trying [TS]

  to buy i think that the deals not yet [TS]

  finalised I what we think about this [TS]

  that this is I'm I'm not so much [TS]

  interested in the details of like are [TS]

  more the history of arm especially you [TS]

  know like that you can read a lot of [TS]

  stories about its origins with the the [TS]

  Newton and where this whole effort came [TS]

  from and although the business I'm [TS]

  mostly interested in terms of thinking [TS]

  about how Apple implements its famous we [TS]

  want to own and control the major [TS]

  technologies and I for whatever the [TS]

  temple quotas like they think they want [TS]

  to control technologies that go into [TS]

  their products right they they do that [TS]

  selectively like they do it according to [TS]

  their own definition so I was thinking [TS]

  of an example they don't own the [TS]

  companies that make the really tough [TS]

  class that goes on top of my phones and [TS]

  they don't own now corning or whoever [TS]

  makes like the gorilla glass or the [TS]

  variance or whatever they don't own [TS]

  foxconn or the companies that assemble [TS]

  their products you would encourage you [TS]

  know are those the core technologies or [TS]

  whatever they specific wording was using [TS]

  that quote i guess not right they do own [TS]

  the operating system they do own like [TS]

  the hardware designs and you know the [TS]

  whole like the product and although this [TS]

  stuff but some parts of it they always [TS]

  considered to be like I will pay [TS]

  somebody else do that and it doesn't [TS]

  really matter that much because if we [TS]

  can't get this glass from this company [TS]

  will try to get from this other one of [TS]

  this company will assemble our phones [TS]

  like will pick suppliers against each [TS]

  other like that they end up being just [TS]

  being a supplier so the question for arm [TS]

  arm which makes the doesn't make the [TS]

  chips but arm which owns the [TS]

  intellectual property to the instruction [TS]

  set and some of the architectural [TS]

  details in many many patents and so on [TS]

  and so forth for the CPUs that are in [TS]

  all of Apple's iOS devices [TS]

  is that just another supplier or is that [TS]

  something that Apple need stone and [TS]

  control and the reason that comes up is [TS]

  it as far as I'm aware as we record this [TS]

  this deal is not finalized [TS]

  should Apple be concerned that some [TS]

  company that's not them and there's not [TS]

  whoever you know the current armed [TS]

  people who are running arm is going to [TS]

  buy the company that I feel like another [TS]

  they rely on but that is an integral [TS]

  part of their most important products [TS]

  should they care they're like well [TS]

  whatever you guys do whatever you want [TS]

  as long as you continue to give us the [TS]

  ARM architecture license lets us [TS]

  essentially build our building designer [TS]

  on cpu's with your intellectual property [TS]

  its core were fine I don't care really [TS]

  careful loans arm or should they be like [TS]

  someone get the checkbook [TS]

  we've got 32 billion dollars between the [TS]

  couch cushions we should just outbid [TS]

  them I it's hard to say without the the [TS]

  details of the deal that they have a [TS]

  farm but this is this intellectual [TS]

  property is super super important i mean [TS]

  this is what all the a-series chips run [TS]

  on right so I'm so torn i would say it [TS]

  is not important for them to own arm as [TS]

  long as they have what as close as they [TS]

  can get to an in perpetuity license for [TS]

  whatever IP they currently have [TS]

  I mean there's also like there's if you [TS]

  look at what apple buys and what they [TS]

  don't buy they tend not to buy component [TS]

  manufacturers that also supply the [TS]

  entire rest of the computing industry [TS]

  with parts so like they don't by Intel [TS]

  you don't see them buying AMD or nvidia [TS]

  they don't buy like a flash ran [TS]

  manufacturer attempt to buy samsung [TS]

  because half the component come from [TS]

  Samsung like it there are lots of these [TS]

  you know component suppliers that that [TS]

  make all sorts of you know parts that go [TS]

  in multiple kinds of computers or phones [TS]

  or whatever else not just apples and [TS]

  apple you know you could make an [TS]

  argument that Apple should maybe by [TS]

  intel or something like that you know as [TS]

  if we ever talk about the mac line up [TS]

  being so stale again this episode [TS]

  because we talk about every episode [TS]

  because the really big problem [TS]

  you know you could look at me like maybe [TS]

  Apple should just buy Intel and run that [TS]

  company you know in their own interest [TS]

  but you know it [TS]

  there's a reason why they don't have [TS]

  lots of reasons why they don't first of [TS]

  all Apple tends to not buy companies at [TS]

  that long [TS]

  George because if they tend not to need [TS]

  to i would imagine they have some kind [TS]

  of deal with the armed license that they [TS]

  have because they have a special license [TS]

  be able to do their own ship designs [TS]

  with that other details of that i will [TS]

  probably hear about it from our readers [TS]

  but basically i would imagine they have [TS]

  ways to not get locked out of that [TS]

  forever say the country needed by armed [TS]

  and if they did ever try to buy one of [TS]

  these companies that also supplies the [TS]

  rest of the industry with major [TS]

  important parts like it tell her arm [TS]

  they would probably be regulatory issues [TS]

  with that that would probably not be [TS]

  great for them with the Justice [TS]

  Department and with the FTC maybe or [TS]

  whoever does the kind of regulatory [TS]

  management there there be political [TS]

  problems with that there might be you [TS]

  know justice problems and address [TS]

  problems so there's lots of reasons for [TS]

  them not to buy these companies that [TS]

  also supply everybody else with stuff [TS]

  but I think about is not so much who the [TS]

  company's supply but could Apple get [TS]

  that same thing from somewhere else and [TS]

  most things I can think of like Intel's [TS]

  I go you can get x86 CPUs anywhere else [TS]

  well you can you get them from AMD it's [TS]

  not a lot of choices but there is at [TS]

  least one other choices out there for [TS]

  flash ram other things like that even [TS]

  the glass stuff you could argue that no [TS]

  one has the specific kind of glad that [TS]

  they want except for corning or whatever [TS]

  but like you can get glass from [TS]

  somewhere else but because what arm [TS]

  supplies arm doesn't make anything with [TS]

  all our supplies is intellectual [TS]

  property as any licensing like they [TS]

  don't you know they license out designs [TS]

  and the right to use this instruction [TS]

  set and all that stuff I don't think you [TS]

  can get that anywhere else there is no [TS]

  alternate supplier for that so if for [TS]

  example softbank buys arm and slowly [TS]

  transitions to company away i'm not [TS]

  they're going to this but like decides [TS]

  that they're you know arm is going to [TS]

  become a company that does augmented [TS]

  reality games you collect monsters but [TS]

  it seems like a more lucrative future [TS]

  Apple can't but I don't think Apple the [TS]

  matter what contracts they have the best [TS]

  they could hope for is like you can [TS]

  continue to make chips [TS]

  according to the designs of already [TS]

  licensed but there will be no new [TS]

  designs and by the way you can make your [TS]

  own designs without licensing these [TS]

  patents from us or without otherwise [TS]

  buying the intellectual property that [TS]

  underlies that like because of the weird [TS]

  accident of history that x86 and [TS]

  AMD being able to make XXX compatible [TS]

  chips I don't think there's any [TS]

  equipment that are matter i'm sure [TS]

  people will send it in a sentence under [TS]

  the corrections that was not the case [TS]

  month follow-up on the next show but I i [TS]

  keep thinking about it in terms of uh is [TS]

  there an alternate supplier like how how [TS]

  important is armed apple and what are [TS]

  there alternatives if something weird [TS]

  starts to happen there and i also think [TS]

  about this and speaking of Max a lot of [TS]

  questions we've gotten about this with [TS]

  the arm feels like does this make it [TS]

  more or less likely that our max you're [TS]

  gonna come out w seems like it'd do any [TS]

  announcements indicate our max why [TS]

  haven't we already see marmax and me [TS]

  thinking about our maximum for a while [TS]

  gonna and I i thought--like x86 max [TS]

  again [TS]

  worst-case scenario you have to [TS]

  suppliers that you could convince to [TS]

  make you x86 CPUs i'm good i guess if [TS]

  you have enough money and things [TS]

  possibly like all right well someone [TS]

  will license us the ability to make our [TS]

  own arm check some of the license is the [TS]

  ability to make your own excesses like [TS]

  we'll just buy the intellectual property [TS]

  like we're never stuck because huge [TS]

  problems of money as a [TS]

  get-out-of-jail-free card so it doesn't [TS]

  really matter what happens over there [TS]

  until there are problems don't worry [TS]

  about it but like for the arm max Mike [TS]

  is it the Apple spends a lot of money [TS]

  making the a you know I'm gonna say X [TS]

  whatever the the a followed by a digit [TS]

  system-on-a-chip things that are in all [TS]

  their devices they hired a lot of people [TS]

  they bought a lot of companies they do a [TS]

  lot of work on their own their chips are [TS]

  not like oh well just like since a [TS]

  design from from arm and pay someone to [TS]

  manufacture they do their own chip [TS]

  design their own integration it's very [TS]

  expensive very complicated it's a part [TS]

  of apples competitive advantage is the [TS]

  mac line which were about to talk about [TS]

  the the ongoing stagnation is the mac [TS]

  line worth doing an equal or possibly [TS]

  even greater investment in chip design [TS]

  to essentially do what intel and AMD [TS]

  Nvidia or you know all the parts that [TS]

  make up the parts that go into a mac [TS]

  they're not simple parts they're [TS]

  complicated their higher performance [TS]

  things that go into phones they are [TS]

  generally bigger they have more [TS]

  transistors if you are going to sign up [TS]

  today we're going to our max we can only [TS]

  control the CPUs to go into them and we [TS]

  can make them just the way [TS]

  you want them that is a big investment [TS]

  probably equal to the investment they're [TS]

  putting into the the iphone [TS]

  system-on-chips for a line of business [TS]

  that is nowhere near the size of the iOS [TS]

  line so maybe the thing that's keeping [TS]

  our max away is not that apple would [TS]

  like to get away from Intel it was doing [TS]

  their products and it's kind of annoying [TS]

  but just because it would cost so much [TS]

  money for Apple to make a like we spent [TS]

  a lot of that was talking about [TS]

  can Apple make a an ARM chip is [TS]

  competitive intel yeah maybe but i will [TS]

  cost a lot of money [TS]

  it's not easy to do that what Intel does [TS]

  is not simple and i'm not quite sure [TS]

  that Apple thinks the mac harbor line is [TS]

  worth it is worth the investment and [TS]

  even you could also argue that like [TS]

  things with intel aren't bad enough yet [TS]

  you know like and yet but this is gonna [TS]

  leave it to our next topic a lot but you [TS]

  know you need it in order for for app [TS]

  for Apple to switch from powerpc to [TS]

  Intel things have to get pretty bad with [TS]

  our pc for a while and Intel hat was way [TS]

  better like it there had to be this [TS]

  massive Delta between the status quo of [TS]

  them using powerpc and being you know [TS]

  really having up having a problematic [TS]

  roadmap and pretty bad neglect and [TS]

  becoming very much uncompetitive with [TS]

  the other side and have any other side [TS]

  being intel on be really compelling and [TS]

  have very few downsides to switching to [TS]

  it and just these massive upsides and I [TS]

  think right now if you look at like you [TS]

  know what they have with intel versus [TS]

  what a possible future with our max [TS]

  would be I don't think the Delta between [TS]

  those two is nearly as large as he used [TS]

  to be you know between between tyrosine [TS]

  until the Delta now is like well in tell [TS]

  ya Intel is really slow to make new [TS]

  chips but their chips that they do [TS]

  release mostly are really good like they [TS]

  get their occasional problems but for [TS]

  the most part like they are very [TS]

  competitive that's one of the reasons [TS]

  why apple doesn't use AMD CPUs as you [TS]

  know they could use whatever ABC even [TS]

  called these data they stopped on stuff [TS]

  for I don't even know anyway what you [TS]

  know AMD CPUs aren't very competitive [TS]

  with intel cpus and haven't been for [TS]

  some time and in most markets that apple [TS]

  would ship computers and intel cpus are [TS]

  just really good yeah there they have [TS]

  dramatically slowed down their rate of [TS]

  improvement and new releases and all [TS]

  these releases getting delayed and [TS]

  everything [TS]

  but they still use them because for the [TS]

  most part they're really good and it's [TS]

  using all these proven platforms Johnson [TS]

  like all the parts that go into a full [TS]

  computer i mean yet they do they do some [TS]

  degree of it on the phones on the a [TS]

  serious system-on-chips there but like [TS]

  computers have all these different ports [TS]

  and standards they have to do and [TS]

  everything on a phone apple can't delete [TS]

  ports fast enough [TS]

  like there's a yeah we started out with [TS]

  two we're gonna have one now like a and [TS]

  it'll be ours we designed like no [TS]

  computers have like four USB ports and [TS]

  have all these video out standards and [TS]

  all this like computers have to have a [TS]

  most computers i guess the macbook one [TS]

  doesn't but here most computers you have [TS]

  to have all these standards of the [TS]

  community is used after all these like [TS]

  you know disc interfaces and i/o [TS]

  interfaces and now you know all this [TS]

  stuff that you don't really have to [TS]

  think about much when you're just [TS]

  designing iphones and ipads because they [TS]

  don't use them but they don't need to [TS]

  interoperate with up with most of these [TS]

  devices so there's all this stuff that [TS]

  like a computer needs and all this [TS]

  competitiveness that Intel offers that [TS]

  you know the difference between intel [TS]

  now having a slow release cycle but [TS]

  providing quite a lot when they do [TS]

  finally release it versus what you have [TS]

  to do to build up an entire computer [TS]

  line using arm CPUs you know the amount [TS]

  of work on the other side is so [TS]

  tremendous and the game probably [TS]

  wouldn't be that big [TS]

  yeah and on top of that I feel like [TS]

  Apple and Intel have a at least an ok [TS]

  relationship right because it wasn't [TS]

  that long ago that that I think it was [TS]

  the first macbook air Intel created like [TS]

  this completely one-off chip with the [TS]

  cpu for the macbook air my crazy [TS]

  thinking that do you remember this well [TS]

  it it was a one-off packaging it they [TS]

  didn't like create a whole custom chip [TS]

  design but they created a custom socket [TS]

  and like package for the chip to get [TS]

  them to make the whole socket small sure [TS]

  I still counted my point is just that [TS]

  they were able to ask intel or four [TS]

  tellin tell whatever the situation may [TS]

  be hey we need this thing completely [TS]

  custom to us we're cool right you can [TS]

  and turns out they're cool you know with [TS]

  it until did it and everyone was happy [TS]

  except the people who bought the macbook [TS]

  air because was a total turd hi mark [TS]

  it i don't know I i think this what it [TS]

  did the question is as we've been [TS]

  dancing around is this Hardware [TS]

  stagnation that we really need to talk [TS]

  about again because we do need to talk [TS]

  about it is this Hardware stagnation [TS]

  really entails fault or is it apple's [TS]

  fault before we move on to that I'm a [TS]

  few more points on our vs intel like [TS]

  we've talked before about like the the [TS]

  from delta and how anything big enough [TS]

  to be worthwhile and then in past [TS]

  conversations also brought this point [TS]

  will bring up again which is really it's [TS]

  not about the performance Delta the [TS]

  reason Apple be doing it because it is [TS]

  before mr. increased control so i think [TS]

  the real question to ask other than the [TS]

  cost thing which I just brought up for [TS]

  our vs intel is how much more control [TS]

  does moving max arm give Apple then [TS]

  you're currently as we can tell in this [TS]

  case you just pointed out it's a pretty [TS]

  high bar because it's like well of Apple [TS]

  did their own ships they can control [TS]

  everything they will control the [TS]

  schedule they control the features they [TS]

  control everything they possibly do but [TS]

  it seemed like for the past many years [TS]

  Apple controls an awful lot about what [TS]

  Intel does in terms of I don't know [TS]

  forcing the but really strongly [TS]

  suggesting that they improve the [TS]

  embedded gpus in there cpus and making [TS]

  like this this whole a line of products [TS]

  the ones that apple pies with the iris [TS]

  graphics and everything that whole [TS]

  product line just smells like apple [TS]

  saying Intel for the next several [TS]

  generations of chips here's what we want [TS]

  out of your chips and then Intel [TS]

  essentially doing it because Apple is I [TS]

  would imagine the biggest and some cases [TS]

  perhaps the only customer for these [TS]

  weird chips because bought the cheaper [TS]

  x86 windows laptop type things or [TS]

  whatever just like well maybe we'll have [TS]

  a top-of-the-line thing but our bread [TS]

  and butter will be those [TS]

  middle-of-the-road one so just another [TS]

  reason that plastic wait a lot so [TS]

  certainly Apple would have more control [TS]

  with arm but it would cost them a ton of [TS]

  money to make our trips to the mac and [TS]

  Intel thus far seems pretty willing to [TS]

  do essentially whatever Apple wants with [TS]

  the chips it's just a question of [TS]

  delivery and apple could say well the [TS]

  increased control would have even though [TS]

  Intel's pretty nice to us and have a [TS]

  good relationship and they're pretty [TS]

  much willing to do the kinds of things [TS]

  we ask for they take a long time and [TS]

  sometimes they screw up and we looked [TS]

  like if we did it ourselves we would do [TS]

  a better job and the second aspect of [TS]

  this is like [TS]

  for the performance Delta and waiting [TS]

  for things to happen to catch up another [TS]

  possible strategy and possibly mention [TS]

  our past shows is you don't have to [TS]

  worry about it costing so much money to [TS]

  make an ARM chip for your mac all you [TS]

  got to do is wait until the ipad pro is [TS]

  faster than all the existing max and [TS]

  then just use that chip that you've [TS]

  already made for your bread-and-butter [TS]

  iOS devices use that in max too because [TS]

  at that point like it if those lines of [TS]

  across and it's like well yeah and and [TS]

  they're getting close like the top and [TS]

  ipad pro and the bottom end the macbook [TS]

  we're going to look at those numbers in [TS]

  the past like and eventually if things [TS]

  if the rate of change keeps going the [TS]

  way they are and you know that the [TS]

  system and chips that are in iOS devices [TS]

  keep adding more power with a similar [TS]

  power envelope assuming battery [TS]

  technology is only increasing like five [TS]

  or ten percent per year or whatever and [TS]

  that the mac ones are like there-there [TS]

  rate of performance increase is not [TS]

  going up that fast those lines can end [TS]

  up crossing and like all finally we [TS]

  don't have to do some weird extra [TS]

  investment to end up with armed ships [TS]

  that we can use in our laptop max we [TS]

  already do that investment for our [TS]

  phones and iPads and whatever it is that [TS]

  kind of the same way the ipads have [TS]

  these ships like the only reason they [TS]

  have those chips is because they need [TS]

  them for the phones is certainly on the [TS]

  ipad is not human [TS]

  iphone kind of money so that the rising [TS]

  tide of the iphones like anything [TS]

  developed for the iphone that is [TS]

  possibly useful elsewhere even if [TS]

  slightly modified you get a lot of bang [TS]

  for the buck by reusing that huge [TS]

  investment we're also sponsor tonight by [TS]

  tracker tracker makes losing things a [TS]

  thing of the past go to the tracker com [TS]

  right now and use code ATP thirty [TS]

  percent off your entire order so the [TS]

  tracker is or just tracker is this [TS]

  little like disc thing and I it when I [TS]

  saw these things i was amazed how small [TS]

  it is it's a little coin-sized device [TS]

  and you can attach it to keys wallets [TS]

  bags computers anything any kind of [TS]

  object that you might lose around the [TS]

  house often you can just attach it to it [TS]

  you connected to your smartphone and [TS]

  then you can find the location of the [TS]

  object that you attach the track or two [TS]

  with the tap of a button on the phone [TS]

  it's very very easy and it goes the [TS]

  other way too [TS]

  if you find the tracker object and you [TS]

  can't find your phone you can push the [TS]

  button on the tracker and your phone [TS]

  will make a noise to let you find it [TS]

  even if your phones on silent now this [TS]

  is a really cool device you will never [TS]

  lose anything again you can attach the [TS]

  tracker to so many different objects you [TS]

  know keys and wallets are like the [TS]

  obvious one [TS]

  you know bad computers you lose your [TS]

  your your backpack or briefcase or [TS]

  whatever that you need to turn around [TS]

  the door there are so many reasons to [TS]

  have this or if you misplace your phone [TS]

  all the time you don't want to have an [TS]

  Apple watch you know you have to have a [TS]

  tracker in the house and just hit the [TS]

  button your phone beeps so easy they [TS]

  sold over 1.5 million of these things so [TS]

  far they have the largest crowd gps [TS]

  network in the world you're lost [TS]

  I didn't even show up on a map even if [TS]

  it's miles away so never lose anything [TS]

  again with trackir the hardest thing I [TS]

  have to find is really just their [TS]

  website once you find the website [TS]

  everything else is fine because the [TS]

  website is the tracker dot com using the [TS]

  product called tracker good thing is you [TS]

  can spell tracker either way the product [TS]

  name does not have the e because it's [TS]

  cool and it's on the internet but if you [TS]

  spell it with the ear without the E in [TS]

  tracker either way the domain works to [TS]

  go to the tracker that's th e tracker [TS]

  dot com enter promo code ATP for thirty [TS]

  percent off your entire order once [TS]

  against the tracker com right now enter [TS]

  promo code ATP for thirty percent off [TS]

  your order [TS]

  thanks a lot to tracker for sponsoring [TS]

  our show never lose anything again so [TS]

  macrumors has a really lovely buyers [TS]

  guide where they go through the hardware [TS]

  in all the different hardware lines [TS]

  product lines and they say hey you [TS]

  probably shouldn't get this right now [TS]

  because they're probably gonna really [TS]

  apples probably release a new one soon [TS]

  and so you know coming up on the fall as [TS]

  we are the iphone four examples labels [TS]

  caution the ipad pro neutral yeah it's [TS]

  probably okay we should clarify this is [TS]

  based on actual like data from past [TS]

  generations problem isn't that the [TS]

  macrumors buying guide has been running [TS]

  its you know how like you know in [TS]

  whatever like that the biggest like [TS]

  well-known oldest steak restaurant in [TS]

  your town and people say that place is [TS]

  an institution [TS]

  the macrumors buying guide is an [TS]

  institution in like the mac nerdery I'm [TS]

  sorry alright noobs alright alright [TS]

  grandma and yes that would like to [TS]

  correct anything about mac in touch okay [TS]

  now and so this is this is based on you [TS]

  know just like they look at how often [TS]

  these products are updated and so they [TS]

  know okay well then the macbook pro se [TS]

  is updated on average every you know 400 [TS]

  days or whatever it is like they they [TS]

  look back in history into and they know [TS]

  for every product line [TS]

  what is the average interval between [TS]

  updates and that's that's how they can [TS]

  tell you with an you know reasonable [TS]

  degree of approximate so you know the [TS]

  approximate sure to you that like okay [TS]

  well did you know the Mac the Mac Mini [TS]

  is usually updated every what's it like [TS]

  800 takes or whatever I don't know what [TS]

  the average for the mac mini and and [TS]

  it's been seven hundred days since the [TS]

  last one so you probably shouldn't buy [TS]

  one now it's that kind of thing [TS]

  yep the average for the mac mini 438 [TS]

  days we are currently running at 643 [TS]

  haha yeah that's lower than i would've [TS]

  guessed honestly also this this wet this [TS]

  web site this web page by the way which [TS]

  I encourage everyone to go to only put [TS]

  it in the notes must be the most [TS]

  infuriating webpage like Apple [TS]

  executives and probably still shoulder [TS]

  and particularly like because the at the [TS]

  top of this page [TS]

  especially when you hit like the maktab [TS]

  which will give you the link to it shows [TS]

  the picture all apples current mac [TS]

  products the name of them and underneath [TS]

  it like you said they have these things [TS]

  like oh you should buy neutral don't buy [TS]

  and the mac thing that shows their [TS]

  products right next to the red button [TS]

  say don't buy don't buy don't buy this [TS]

  is exactly the opposite message that [TS]

  wants anywhere that all its products are [TS]

  raid in a big line with the red things [TS]

  that say don't buy can you imagine a [TS]

  more sort of like this really upsetting [TS]

  webpage to people whose job it is to [TS]

  sell macs and I guess you got the green [TS]

  one on the macbook this has by now but [TS]

  it's just it's such a weird thing to see [TS]

  apples product photography next week [TS]

  huge red buttons don't buy it's harsh [TS]

  but harsh but fair [TS]

  it's a good time for the backbone so [TS]

  there's that [TS]

  yeah this is really sad so everything [TS]

  they everything except the macbook one [TS]

  the air the pro the macbook pro the [TS]

  retina MacBook [TS]

  pro kinda forgot there's a distinction [TS]

  there the imac the mac mini the mac pro [TS]

  huh thats 945 days since the last [TS]

  release December 2013 how you guys were [TS]

  so excited [TS]

  remember those days anyway all of this [TS]

  is don't buy and its getting it [TS]

  I know it's getting a little bit [TS]

  ridiculous right on the one side it [TS]

  why does one need a brand-new computer [TS]

  like let's suppose that the CPU was [TS]

  modern which it's not really these days [TS]

  but I mean the industrial design it's [TS]

  this unibody setup has been around for a [TS]

  few years like Stephen Hackett some [TS]

  video review of the kind of history of [TS]

  modern apple laptops goes through this [TS]

  and you know they don't look that [TS]

  different than they have ever used to do [TS]

  they know upgraded the internals made a [TS]

  little thinner you know improved battery [TS]

  life actually wouldn't wouldn't be nice [TS]

  to get that on the iOS side but you know [TS]

  what do you really need from a brand-new [TS]

  computer like if it wasn't for the fact [TS]

  these chips are all getting a little bit [TS]

  long in the tooth [TS]

  I don't think this would be that [TS]

  egregious I'm not looking for a brand [TS]

  new form factor in in my work macbook [TS]

  pro now remind me that when they do [TS]

  something amazing and I must have it but [TS]

  only two months exactly but but I tell [TS]

  you what man this this is sad times and [TS]

  it's just it's gotten to the point i [TS]

  mean looking at these numbers 281 days [TS]

  for her and 28 days for 99 days 643 days [TS]

  945 days with you were measuring years [TS]

  it's unreal like what are they doing how [TS]

  is this okay you know to some degree [TS]

  this isn't just like Santa Claus like [TS]

  you know Santa Apple we we just deserve [TS]

  new things because it's time there has [TS]

  to be something that they update the [TS]

  internals to like you know that and so [TS]

  you have to again look at the supply [TS]

  chain look at Intel especially because [TS]

  that's that's where a lot of this is [TS]

  based you say alright well is there [TS]

  something else that they could be [TS]

  updating to that they're just not like [TS]

  apple doesn't just arbitrarily decide [TS]

  you know what next month we're going to [TS]

  give them a macbook pro update you know [TS]

  like it's based on the schedules of the [TS]

  components that go into it and what they [TS]

  what they could update the components to [TS]

  in recent years intel has had a lot of [TS]

  problems and delays [TS]

  getting there getting a new stuff out [TS]

  and so much this is based on that and we [TS]

  talked about this before so I'm gonna [TS]

  try to repeat too much ground here so a [TS]

  lot of these things are just the news [TS]

  until chips are what's holding this up [TS]

  and they aren't available yet or not [TS]

  available in quantity yet or the ones [TS]

  that apple would use aren't available [TS]

  even though the rest of the family might [TS]

  be and that's the case with a lot of [TS]

  these the products that tend to sell in [TS]

  very high volumes the new macbook the [TS]

  retina macbook pro and the imac tend to [TS]

  be kept up-to-date fairly responsibly if [TS]

  intel has released a new generation of [TS]

  cpus that is the the appropriate size [TS]

  and cost and and heat and power needs [TS]

  for the certain lines Apple tends to [TS]

  update to the men a reasonable amount of [TS]

  time so you know if you're buying like [TS]

  an imac I mean the imac has not been [TS]

  neglected developing a magazine has [TS]

  really been very solidly updated i think [TS]

  for a long time now it's like it's been [TS]

  pretty competitive the macbook pro [TS]

  usually has been we've had some problems [TS]

  recently but usually has been and again [TS]

  those problems are often tells fault [TS]

  where it really becomes a problem is [TS]

  when Apple gets neglectful of of the [TS]

  lines there are more specialized that [TS]

  that presumably don't sound very high [TS]

  volumes and that's things like the mac [TS]

  mini and the mac pro and it also becomes [TS]

  a problem on the lines that Apple is [TS]

  kind of slowly phasing out because [TS]

  they've made better lines that includes [TS]

  things like the macbook air and the non [TS]

  retina macbook pro in these kind of [TS]

  areas apple doesn't use every generation [TS]

  of new stuff that becomes available from [TS]

  Intel this is what I think frustrates a [TS]

  lot of people his Liz you know in the [TS]

  case of the mac pro which is one of the [TS]

  more egregious degrees examples of this [TS]

  news eons that are appropriate for use [TS]

  in the mac pro only come out about every [TS]

  18 months [TS]

  the problem comes that if Apple decides [TS]

  to skip a generation of those if a new [TS]

  generation of Zeon's comes out an apple [TS]

  aside for whatever reason you know that [TS]

  it's not worth updating the mac pro to [TS]

  disney generation [TS]

  not only is it probably already been [TS]

  like 18 months since the last update but [TS]

  now they're they're signed themselves up [TS]

  for another 18 months with no update [TS]

  basically and it could be longer if [TS]

  there's any delay until side which again [TS]

  has been happening with increasing [TS]

  frequency in recent years when they [TS]

  choose to just say you know it's not [TS]

  worth up to this [TS]

  that is really a position of of hubris [TS]

  and and of arrogance and neglect of [TS]

  these products and that is what [TS]

  irritates me about it you know if intel [TS]

  has a problem and it holds up the [TS]

  release of something that has the last [TS]

  generation ships in it like the imac it [TS]

  doesn't bother me as much because I know [TS]

  it's not really apple's fault but when [TS]

  it comes to things like the mac mini the [TS]

  mac pro where Apple could be updating [TS]

  these things they're there were chips [TS]

  they could have used and they just skip [TS]

  them because they just don't care that [TS]

  is infuriating and it really shows a [TS]

  level of disdain for your customers [TS]

  it takes a certain degree of [TS]

  shamelessness and of arrogance and [TS]

  hubris to be still selling the same mac [TS]

  pro today if you walk into the apple [TS]

  store he can still buy the same mac pro [TS]

  today that you could order in December [TS]

  of 2013 [TS]

  the price is exactly the same the [TS]

  configurations are exactly the same [TS]

  there have been no new options for this [TS]

  this computer that you said we're you [TS]

  know we're betting the future on high [TS]

  GPU power and then we're not going to [TS]

  update the GPUs for three years or make [TS]

  them upgradeable aftermarket you finally [TS]

  got to my pet issues and all there's no [TS]

  new cpus who cares about the cpu there [TS]

  are new GPU is every single year there [TS]

  are new GPU so if you make you're like [TS]

  well we would update but there's no new [TS]

  Intel CPUs first of all you can upgrade [TS]

  to a higher clock speed 00 CPU designs [TS]

  maybe it's easier to get the guns that [TS]

  have been for our class being second of [TS]

  all every year you almost every year you [TS]

  can upgrade gpus but that doesn't even [TS]

  count like it's not even a consideration [TS]

  and I'd like you're right it's the most [TS]

  absurd on the GPU festooned mac pro [TS]

  machine right now i think it's also [TS]

  absurd on just every other line of [TS]

  computers like even if there is [TS]

  absolutely no new cpu either lower the [TS]

  price for putting a GPU and it or update [TS]

  the chipset trim you know in the olden [TS]

  days USB two three or 330 point 14 like [TS]

  there are things that you can do I mean [TS]

  if you want to see the things that you [TS]

  do who what can you do it updated [TS]

  computer that offer just look at every [TS]

  single pc manufacturer they always find [TS]

  some way to bump the specs little by [TS]

  little I'm not saying Apple should do it [TS]

  like what del does [TS]

  but the idea that there's nothing you [TS]

  can improve the hardware evangelism [TS]

  released a brand new CPU design either a [TS]

  shrink or a new architecture i don't i [TS]

  don't even buy that but I'm willing to [TS]

  say I'm willing to accept that Kayden's [TS]

  if the cpu cadence is reasonable but [TS]

  wants to see you can start going on 18 [TS]

  months like i said but then [TS]

  pro don't not only should you not skip [TS]

  generations you shouldn't even wait for [TS]

  the next generation to give it pumps [TS]

  exactly and you know especially for [TS]

  again like for a machine we're going to [TS]

  say this is all about GPU power and [TS]

  you're going to design it to always have [TS]

  two gpus you aren't even going to allow [TS]

  people to buy one GPU and you're gonna [TS]

  put in these kind of like half covered [TS]

  asterisks workstation class GPUs on them [TS]

  you know that and then to not get the [TS]

  GPUs for three years and still be [TS]

  supporting the same price and not like [TS]

  them upgradeable like if you're really [TS]

  going to say the mac pro is all about [TS]

  GPU power they have to be upgradeable [TS]

  aftermarket period and if for some [TS]

  reason you really insist on making them [TS]

  not upgradeable you have to be updating [TS]

  them on a regular basis every night at [TS]

  12 months like there has to be a GPU [TS]

  because that's what competitive energy [TS]

  in the GPU world and for that not to be [TS]

  happening in the mac pro you know Phil [TS]

  Schiller start there and told us about [TS]

  his ass innovation and innovate anymore [TS]

  my ass now there's been nothing it's [TS]

  embarrassing and it really again like I [TS]

  can't understate like how much this it [TS]

  looks like Apple just giving the middle [TS]

  finger to its customers on this on these [TS]

  things if your mac pro buyer if you're a [TS]

  mac mini buyer if your macbook air buyer [TS]

  apple is giving us the giant finger on [TS]

  these things for the last few years and [TS]

  the mac mini is I mean as i mentioned [TS]

  last bit like the mac mini is also [TS]

  especially bad because the previous [TS]

  update which itself was very late in [TS]

  many ways made the product worse so like [TS]

  if you actually measure by days since [TS]

  the mac mini has gotten universally [TS]

  better its much locker number but you [TS]

  know it really is a problem here and and [TS]

  John I think you're right they have to [TS]

  find ways that they can update the [TS]

  computers without waiting for Intel if [TS]

  they're going to be skipping generations [TS]

  and honestly they have to just stop [TS]

  skipping generations because you know [TS]

  the mac mini you know [TS]

  yeah it's a low and computer for them [TS]

  but it isn't alone computer for the [TS]

  people who buy it it's like a thousand [TS]

  dollars at least 44 well-configured one [TS]

  generally for buying the mac mini unless [TS]

  you have some kind of like special you [TS]

  know rule for like buying it to be a [TS]

  server or something else but if you're [TS]

  buying it to be your mac that is a low [TS]

  and Mac you're probably buying it [TS]

  because you can't because you need that [TS]

  value you know that the money [TS]

  matters a lot to you and your kind of [TS]

  stretching to buy it to have the [TS]

  customer experience of wanting to get [TS]

  into a mac and just barely being able to [TS]

  afford one and choose and having to [TS]

  choose a magnet near one of the many for [TS]

  your needs and then to have this this [TS]

  like neglected insulting machine be the [TS]

  one that apple will sell you that is not [TS]

  a way to get more people to buy max that [TS]

  is not a way to get people to be happy [TS]

  but by Mac that's going to hurt customer [TS]

  set Tim's wonderful customer set [TS]

  it's just it's an it's a position of [TS]

  arrogance that plays into all the [TS]

  negative stereotypes about Apple the [TS]

  people have had since the nineties that [TS]

  we keep trying to convince the world as [TS]

  mac owners no it's not like that these [TS]

  really are great computers the great [TS]

  values and overpriced apples are helping [TS]

  us at all here because they're showing [TS]

  this incredible neglect and some of [TS]

  these ancient computers that they could [TS]

  have updated like I'm not talking about [TS]

  the ones where the way to an intel talk [TS]

  about the ones that they skip [TS]

  generations forever [TS]

  they just they have to stop skipping the [TS]

  generations for every product line [TS]

  because you know what if it isn't worth [TS]

  updating the mac pro for a xeon [TS]

  generation that comes out every 18 [TS]

  months [TS]

  this is like a 3000 + dollar computer if [TS]

  it isn't worth updating that the [TS]

  discontinued thing you know it don't [TS]

  don't even don't sell computers that you [TS]

  that you are not willing to maintain to [TS]

  a basic level of maintenance here that [TS]

  is just insulting and by the way one [TS]

  more quick thing before I forget [TS]

  right now there's a whole bunch of very [TS]

  high-end buyers that are building [TS]

  high-end computers with lots of GPU [TS]

  power because they want to use vr when [TS]

  was the last time that people really [TS]

  wanted to buy in large numbers very [TS]

  high-end desktop computers lots of GPU [TS]

  power [TS]

  I mean yes there's always been pc gamers [TS]

  but that's always been a pretty you know [TS]

  pretty narrow market relative to the [TS]

  entire you know pc market as a whole [TS]

  right now there is a surge of people who [TS]

  want to buy high-end desktop class [TS]

  hardware and big GPUs and apple is [TS]

  completely missing out on this some of [TS]

  those people might have bought mac pro [TS]

  so they're competitive but they're not [TS]

  apples totally missing out on this wave [TS]

  people buying high and stuff and yeah [TS]

  their numbers might not be very big but [TS]

  they're very very profitable this market [TS]

  is extremely profitable [TS]

  an apple just completely blowing it they [TS]

  have blown this opportunity that only [TS]

  comes around maybe every 10 years or [TS]

  there's a lot of people who actually [TS]

  need high-end hardware you know for [TS]

  years we keep saying like oh well you [TS]

  know I i can get away just fine with [TS]

  with my four-year-old you know 13-inch [TS]

  macbook pro because most people most [TS]

  needs on your computer pretty basic [TS]

  these days with me with modern hardware [TS]

  vr need every bit of power can get and [TS]

  again these opportunities don't come [TS]

  very often in the market where people [TS]

  actually need high-end hardware and are [TS]

  willing to buy it and in in substantial [TS]

  numbers and apple just missed it because [TS]

  they just don't care and that's really [TS]

  unfortunate and it pains me as a fan of [TS]

  this company as a fan of high-end [TS]

  hardware it really pains me to see the [TS]

  level of neglect and arrogance hear that [TS]

  Apple has shown its pro customers and [TS]

  all its customers honestly so let's [TS]

  assume for a second i know you've talked [TS]

  a lot about how a lot of these are not [TS]

  Intel's faults and i agree with you [TS]

  there but let's assume for a second that [TS]

  some of these are well don't you think [TS]

  it will let me change that how i phrase [TS]

  that isn't there a way that Apple could [TS]

  kind of hint subversively could kind of [TS]

  you do one of their people familiar with [TS]

  the matter told the Wall Street Journal [TS]

  that this is all Intel's fault like why [TS]

  has a wise an apple someway somehow [TS]

  blame didn't tell for this even quietly [TS]

  if that makes any sense [TS]

  that's not something that Apple does [TS]

  it's not an apple move in general like [TS]

  they have problems with suppliers which [TS]

  they have all the time they find [TS]

  alternate suppliers but they don't think [TS]

  I'm gonna throw this applies under the [TS]

  bus they don't even want to know the [TS]

  supplies existing yes we all know Intel [TS]

  exist but I if it was Steve Jobs maybe [TS]

  and especially if they had a new [TS]

  supplier lined up like as soon as in [TS]

  they switched Intel then it was all [TS]

  about throw powerpc IBM under the bus [TS]

  but right up until that point it was [TS]

  like IBM g5 everything is great and [TS]

  you know they're gonna have it in three [TS]

  guards and and 12 months or whatever [TS]

  that promise was that he made on stage [TS]

  never happened [TS]

  I don't know I really don't think it's [TS]

  that an apple style move to to shift the [TS]

  blame apple accepts responsibility of [TS]

  like they're they're the ones that [TS]

  control their product lines they're not [TS]

  going to blame the manufacturer even [TS]

  like member whatever that courts plants [TS]

  was that was supposed to make them [TS]

  courts things for some reason and that [TS]

  whole thing imploded and went bankrupt [TS]

  or whatever [TS]

  sfr your sapphire whatever they dig it's [TS]

  that happened and we know about it [TS]

  because it was public news but it's not [TS]

  as if Apple is putting out print this is [TS]

  not an apple move to put out a press [TS]

  release that blames other companies for [TS]

  apples failure to deliver its products [TS]

  the closest you'll get is you know [TS]

  thoughts on flash where it's like well [TS]

  we ship products like this isn't [TS]

  stopping us from shipping product or [TS]

  changing our products we think this [TS]

  technology is crappy for everybody we [TS]

  got the closest I've seen in the modern [TS]

  you know Apple era but i also like you [TS]

  know Apple is not going to want to admit [TS]

  any kind of public way even if it's [TS]

  through unofficial channels like that [TS]

  they're not going to even suggest the [TS]

  possibility that the mac line is old and [TS]

  stale and it's a problem yeah there's no [TS]

  they don't have those status bars on [TS]

  their website that has and like that's [TS]

  the word like we know like it's a smart [TS]

  move it's an apple move to not drop the [TS]

  price your products because all about [TS]

  perceived value [TS]

  ah not dragging the prospects for the [TS]

  whole year [TS]

  that's what separates you know apple [TS]

  from dell I dealt with that they're [TS]

  making the same thing and there are [TS]

  costs of good savings they will lower [TS]

  the price to get more enterprise sales [TS]

  and whatever blood Apple walk right not [TS]

  dropping the price for free year three [TS]

  years like who are you kidding now like [TS]

  that's that stops being we're preserving [TS]

  value that starts being just like Marco [TS]

  said punitive to your customers and [TS]

  you're not fooling anybody [TS]

  no one who knows anything thanks that [TS]

  2013 mac pro that they're still selling [TS]

  for the same price is worth anything [TS]

  close that price it is ridiculous i'm [TS]

  very curious to see what happens this [TS]

  fall because all signs are pointing to [TS]

  this fall being when they that when they [TS]

  right these wrongs I came out and I [TS]

  can't imagine the complete meltdown that [TS]

  all of us are going to have I would say [TS]

  the pundits but i think we will all melt [TS]

  down the three of us well if there's eat [TS]

  are nothing new or extremely [TS]

  underwhelming things as this fall on the [TS]

  flip side is all forgiven if something [TS]

  at least moderately exciting happens [TS]

  this fall [TS]

  I mean we all have very very short [TS]

  memories and even shorter attention [TS]

  spans [TS]

  if they do this fancy function row oled [TS]

  screen thing that was talked about a [TS]

  couple of months back [TS]

  you know there were something else [TS]

  that's new and fancy or are they [TS]

  forgiving is that it we're done we're [TS]

  good here [TS]

  yeah it depends on the product line that [TS]

  that they do it too and whether that's [TS]

  the one you've been waiting for is a [TS]

  customer or not you know like it by by [TS]

  making a major upgrade to the macbook [TS]

  pro that's that's good they should be [TS]

  doing at the macbook pro is is probably [TS]

  there is one of the most commonly [TS]

  selling models [TS]

  certainly it's probably the [TS]

  highest-profile model or the most common [TS]

  model among high-profile buyers you know [TS]

  the macbook pro is a very important part [TS]

  that's great and they should be on that [TS]

  he really should but if you're one of [TS]

  the people who've been sitting around [TS]

  waiting for mac pro or Mac Mini or [TS]

  macbook air update then that's not gonna [TS]

  be very satisfying to you because it's [TS]

  like well okay that that's nice I you [TS]

  know I macbook air maybe not as much [TS]

  because the new one is probably closer [TS]

  to it in size and weight but if your [TS]

  desktop users that are waiting for Mac [TS]

  Miller Mac Pro whether they update the [TS]

  macbook pro riders is not incredibly [TS]

  relevant to you and and how happy you [TS]

  are with the lineup and by the way i [TS]

  would expect neither mac mini nor mac [TS]

  pro this fall mac mini simply because [TS]

  they don't care they hate their [TS]

  customers macro because it's falling [TS]

  inconveniently between Broadwell even [TS]

  skyline key I think they've waited this [TS]

  long they're probably go straight to [TS]

  skylight which is not a bad plan it you [TS]

  know if there's not a macro out now like [TS]

  it with broad well II then you might as [TS]

  well wait for Scott lucky that's a major [TS]

  upgrade and you already missed the broad [TS]

  well wave and you know what what they [TS]

  should be doing is releasing every [TS]

  generation but if if you're gonna see if [TS]

  you find yourself in in you know late [TS]

  2016 and you still haven't made a macpro [TS]

  update don't make one now with Broadwell [TS]

  make one with sky like I i wouldn't give [TS]

  that is what I can't talk about the case [TS]

  you're saying like it's all forgiven i [TS]

  think it's more about regaining trust [TS]

  and what would what make you know what [TS]

  would bring some trust back is not just [TS]

  saying hey we finally updated the [TS]

  macbooks because you know there [TS]

  right yeah it's gonna be good and people [TS]

  are going to buy a lot of them and may [TS]

  you know I was gonna be happy you know [TS]

  they're gonna do that but that doesn't [TS]

  regain any trust because what you're [TS]

  looking for is a new pattern of behavior [TS]

  not merely oh we didn't update these [TS]

  computers for a long time and everyone [TS]

  was sad but hey here's new update [TS]

  everything is great [TS]

  like what you want to see is a new [TS]

  update followed by another new timely [TS]

  update may be followed by another one [TS]

  and then you would have your faith [TS]

  restored and to restore faith in [TS]

  something of a macpro situation I think [TS]

  what you have to do is at the very least [TS]

  put out a new mac pro with the same cpus [TS]

  but better gpus or put out a Broadway [TS]

  mac pro that you already spent time [TS]

  developing internally even though you [TS]

  know you're going to replace it with a [TS]

  skylight and also in the broad well you [TS]

  won't have new gpus like and it's like [TS]

  well well that's such a big change you [TS]

  can regain that trust as quickly as [TS]

  possible by saying Broadwell macbook [TS]

  barbell mac pro with new gpus sky like [TS]

  mac pro with new gpus those two releases [TS]

  would be like oh hey I get that both [TS]

  updating this computer again and now [TS]

  it's safe to buy and it's no longer [TS]

  embarrassing and that's such a turn from [TS]

  their current thing of like skip a [TS]

  generation [TS]

  maybe skip one mortgage that by this [TS]

  point the new ones are going to come out [TS]

  it's like you can always say it's like [TS]

  we've waited so long to get the was [TS]

  gonna come out to like well this the sky [TS]

  like once we're not really ready to do [TS]

  that now its work on those and you're [TS]

  working on the sky like was like well [TS]

  maybe wait another year for Thunderbolt [TS]

  for to come out he would always wait [TS]

  happened release new versions of the [TS]

  product and the way to regain trust is [TS]

  to show a new pattern of behavior and [TS]

  one data point does not make a line you [TS]

  need to have multiple data points say [TS]

  not only have they revised computer [TS]

  again but because if you were to tell [TS]

  them new macros are going to come out [TS]

  the beginning of next year and there [TS]

  won't be another new mac pro for three [TS]

  years would you invest in this life [TS]

  years would you invest in this life [TS]

  if computers it is like well I don't [TS]

  want that cadence I don't like that even [TS]

  if i buy all my computers now like if i [TS]

  get a new employee in a year [TS]

  don't have to buy them a year old Mac [TS]

  Pro if i get an employee in two years [TS]

  that have to buy them a two year old Mac [TS]

  Pro like the three-year Cannes is not [TS]

  acceptable so they have to establish new [TS]

  pattern of behavior and the way to most [TS]

  quickly establishing pattern behaviour [TS]

  rapid-fire releases and for the mac pro [TS]

  it's right in front of them new GPU is [TS]

  Broadwell the sky like energy use and [TS]

  all those things you could do three new [TS]

  revisions of the mac pro between now and [TS]

  the sky like one and that will go a long [TS]

  way to show I mean that's kind of [TS]

  ridiculous but that was a long way [TS]

  although delwood to it to showing that [TS]

  you are dedicated to this product line [TS]

  again and for the other ones because [TS]

  they are kind of like an annual cycle [TS]

  like the mac mini has never had the [TS]

  trust so you're not losing the trust [TS]

  their other than the crappy revision [TS]

  that took away the course right but it [TS]

  was never really there but for the [TS]

  macbooks and stuffs like really but that [TS]

  your your laptop's those are your most [TS]

  portable max and even those are getting [TS]

  long in the tooth this it's not a not a [TS]

  good looks like it's I wish they'd shown [TS]

  that page not just the gaps and [TS]

  everything but like a graphs where you [TS]

  could see that they were kind of in a [TS]

  steady kind of pattern then here's this [TS]

  new aberration from the pattern and you [TS]

  have to restore that pattern to restore [TS]

  the faith in the product line if you [TS]

  scroll down to each of the individual [TS]

  like details [TS]

  it shows recent releases and there's [TS]

  individual like bar charts for each [TS]

  release so you can get you can get a [TS]

  sort of hint as to what what's the [TS]

  normal is so you can see for the imac [TS]

  for example the may 2011 update was 577 [TS]

  days since the prior one but every other [TS]

  one looks like it was about 200 to 300 [TS]

  days you see what i mean so you can even [TS]

  get a rough guess just by looking at [TS]

  these graphs [TS]

  yeah and a lot of these I mean it's kind [TS]

  of sad how much seem to stop in 2012 [TS]

  I I just this makes me so sad it [TS]

  honestly like you know I know I know [TS]

  it's kind of you know improper to talk [TS]

  this simply and and broadly but it looks [TS]

  like team coach doesn't like the mac [TS]

  very much and I hope that's not it i [TS]

  hope that's not the reason for all this [TS]

  and I hope it's not true but that's how [TS]

  it looks it looks like tim cook [TS]

  care about the mac it doesn't have had [TS]

  to do is work I know [TS]

  yeah the ipad is the future of computing [TS]

  like I I'm not as if that's what he's [TS]

  making decisions based on our units [TS]

  decisions that if if he was making [TS]

  decisions based on us it would be purely [TS]

  based on how much money they cost to [TS]

  developer so much money to bring for the [TS]

  company and how much potential future [TS]

  revenue and blah blah blah i really [TS]

  don't think he's making decisions based [TS]

  on what computers he likes because that [TS]

  doesn't seem like his role in the [TS]

  company but bottom line numbers stuff [TS]

  was his bag before he became CEO and i [TS]

  would imagine that it you know any [TS]

  moment he does have in this would be [TS]

  related to that but I more more likely [TS]

  these decisions are made down a level [TS]

  below and he just gives it ok on it [TS]

  yeah but it but it is it is kind of like [TS]

  the Tim Cook way to just keep old stuff [TS]

  around just keep selling it you know [TS]

  because that still makes good enough [TS]

  money and that that's how the whole Mac [TS]

  lineup looks right now and again some of [TS]

  these families that's Intel's fault but [TS]

  a lot of them it's not it looks like [TS]

  Apple has made the calculus to say you [TS]

  know we don't really need to update the [TS]

  mac very often they still sell anyway [TS]

  and so we just won't just let it sit [TS]

  there and he knows that's not true like [TS]

  this last quarter of Maxwell's was [TS]

  dismal and you know that was happening [TS]

  before was happening like this is this [TS]

  is a but it's not like any true he knows [TS]

  it's not true [TS]

  yeah i would like they know the numbers [TS]

  to do before they announce that all [TS]

  things they do projections they have [TS]

  estimations they see they're not going [TS]

  to get their numbers we find out in [TS]

  their earnings calls when they know well [TS]

  before that and that is the point where [TS]

  maybe they have strategic planning your [TS]

  replanting meetings and saying look [TS]

  we're not gonna even come close to [TS]

  hitting are expected numbers for max [TS]

  it's gonna look bad [TS]

  what we want to do and that's where they [TS]

  say can this product line provides this [TS]

  one move this project up at more funny [TS]

  that i don't know i'm i'm fantasizing [TS]

  about how things are done is that Apple [TS]

  but like it it's the the idea that the [TS]

  the anyone in the company thinks that [TS]

  you can just make like these lines and [TS]

  nothing will happen [TS]

  we all know that's not true by now an [TS]

  apple no way before we did do you think [TS]

  the new 18 months ago and decided to [TS]

  skip a generation of these various cpus [TS]

  about the delayed time is so huge that [TS]

  you like this unit it's a is a trailing [TS]

  indicator of whether yeah [TS]

  using the right i think where you find [TS]

  out how long after the decisions that [TS]

  led to it had been made and the new [TS]

  decisions you make now aren't going to [TS]

  manifest for a while so that's just the [TS]

  nature of the beast here but yeah I mean [TS]

  like this about regaining trust we know [TS]

  that even if they made the decision year [TS]

  ago [TS]

  we're not going to see the results of [TS]

  the decisions for a long time so we just [TS]

  sit back and wait and you know show us [TS]

  with your actions that you know which [TS]

  product lines you care about which ones [TS]

  are quote unquote safe to buy safe to [TS]

  invest in for individual users less [TS]

  important for individual users it's like [TS]

  you just by soon as they're revives like [TS]

  you wait a little bit to make sure [TS]

  they're not lemons there's no systemic [TS]

  problems with the with the things and [TS]

  then you buy it and as far as an [TS]

  individual is concerned you're fine as [TS]

  long as when you decide to buy a new [TS]

  computer that actually is a new one for [TS]

  you to buy that is different than the [TS]

  one you already bought but for [TS]

  institutions are people to buy a lot of [TS]

  them like something over the company [TS]

  with a bunch of people doing like Maya [TS]

  on their mac pros and they staff up for [TS]

  a big project and they have an occasion [TS]

  to buy new computers and they will be [TS]

  sad if they're buying the same computers [TS]

  they bought a year or two years or three [TS]

  years ago for the same price [TS]

  it just doesn't seem right [TS]

  technologically speaking it's like oh [TS]

  well you know it's been three years [TS]

  since i bought my computer you new [TS]

  employee will have such a fancy computer [TS]

  will be great like we can't afford to [TS]

  revise all our computers every year but [TS]

  we bring new employees they get a new [TS]

  and now you have the same as that [TS]

  computer i did that's great [TS]

  our final sponsor tonight is indochino a [TS]

  new sponsor go to indochino dot-com use [TS]

  promo code ATP for any premium suit [TS]

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  your look your window Gino makes [TS]

  made-to-measure suits available to the [TS]

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  time i had to buy a suit i went to a big [TS]

  chain suit store that you probably all [TS]

  have heard of and I just went in and I [TS]

  talked to some salesperson for a few [TS]

  minutes and I walked out with a suit [TS]

  there is no tailoring there is no [TS]

  made-to-measure no custom making it like [TS]

  that because i don't have that much [TS]

  money I i only could dedicate a few [TS]

  dollars to this at this point my life [TS]

  and that's it I haven't really had made [TS]

  since then you know I always assume [TS]

  made-to-order suits are thing that [TS]

  only fancy people get well indochino [TS]

  cells made-to-order suits for less money [TS]

  than what i paid at that at that big [TS]

  retailer i think i paid something like [TS]

  five or six hundred dollars for that [TS]

  mediocre soon i got there [TS]

  indochino cells you one-of-a-kind [TS]

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  for you it's so important to get suits [TS]

  that fit you right because when they [TS]

  don't fit you right they don't look good [TS]

  you don't look good in them they look [TS]

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  it just doesn't look right when you look [TS]

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  the price that suit I bought the big [TS]

  retailer was about five seconds hours go [TS]

  to intercom use promo code ATP you can [TS]

  get any premium suit for just 3 99 with [TS]

  free shipping so it's even cheaper than [TS]

  what i paid the big-box door for a worse [TS]

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  indochino your look your way [TS]

  I have a question specifically for Marco [TS]

  you had written probably like a year ago [TS]

  a tool that will take several audio [TS]

  files say from your co-host and your own [TS]

  and stitch them together and laura [TS]

  dotson together but line them up so [TS]

  we're not on different parts of the [TS]

  episode at the same moment right so [TS]

  you're synched up thinking of time wise [TS]

  i was thinking about this week or two [TS]

  ago how the hell are you doing that [TS]

  because we don't all hit the record [TS]

  button at the same moment and I was try [TS]

  was debating with myself okay well how's [TS]

  he doing it is he just looking for it [TS]

  and it's all you know algorithmic it and [TS]

  so is he just looking for like some peak [TS]

  in one and then trying to find the same [TS]

  peak in the other and I wasn't sure how [TS]

  this worked and so what is this tool and [TS]

  how the hell did you do it before Marco [TS]

  explains we should all say that we don't [TS]

  do that embarrassing clap thing with [TS]

  some other podcasters naming any names [TS]

  here met yet so it it for what it's [TS]

  worth a lot of shows when you're on the [TS]

  show will count down and say okay we're [TS]

  all gonna clap 123 and then everyone [TS]

  claps and that's their peak that the [TS]

  editor uses to line up the the two or [TS]

  more sides which is bogus because of [TS]

  audio driftwood market will explain soon [TS]

  yeah so I just I was really curious [TS]

  because this is a fascinating technical [TS]

  problem and yeah it's a little inside [TS]

  baseball but it's a fascinating [TS]

  technical problem to solve regardless of [TS]

  the fact that happens too late to [TS]

  podcasting so how to solve it i should [TS]

  clarify before i start here that I [TS]

  didn't do any research of course I [TS]

  didn't do any research beforehand on [TS]

  like how this problem should be solved [TS]

  how other things on this problem there [TS]

  are very few audio tools that do solve [TS]

  this problem but it's pretty common [TS]

  high-end video recording after the idea [TS]

  is you know if you if you're on a video [TS]

  shoot you probably a recording audio off [TS]

  camera you're probably recording audio [TS]

  through some other device and audio [TS]

  recorder mix or whatever else you need [TS]

  to then sync up the audio with the video [TS]

  or you to sync multiple cameras video [TS]

  and editing so you can switch between [TS]

  the cameras and sink it all to the [TS]

  master audio track so video apps have [TS]

  had like Final Cut does this i'm pretty [TS]

  sure i don't [TS]

  watch my video but video have had ways [TS]

  to do this for a long time where they [TS]

  will take in that they will use audio [TS]

  and they will be able to sync audio and [TS]

  video between multiple tracks everything [TS]

  what I wanted was a very basic command [TS]

  line tool to do this so that i could put [TS]

  it in as like part of my shell script to [TS]

  process all your files through ffmpeg [TS]

  whatever else normalize the format and [TS]

  get them all and basically take your [TS]

  like you know inconvenient call recorder [TS]

  files and whatever else and output a set [TS]

  of sync fully synced & undrafted wav [TS]

  files that importance of logic and edit [TS]

  this summit podcasters if you're doing [TS]

  if you're just recording skype from your [TS]

  computer and that's it and that's use [TS]

  those are the tracks you don't really [TS]

  need to do this because everything is [TS]

  all synced up but if you if you're doing [TS]

  what's called like a double ender method [TS]

  where like each each end of the each [TS]

  person on on the call record their own [TS]

  track locally like we do it sounds way [TS]

  better and you it affords you a great [TS]

  deal of flexibility and editing for [TS]

  shows for more than two people on them [TS]

  but this is a problem you have reason to [TS]

  think otherwise files ok drift is [TS]

  another problem [TS]

  this is really down the weeds and I'm [TS]

  sorry this is boring anybody so i'll try [TS]

  to be quick [TS]

  basically your audio interface you know [TS]

  whatever recording you whether it's the [TS]

  micro no sound whatever your audio [TS]

  interface record a certain number of [TS]

  samples per second so a minus in the [TS]

  numbers 44 kilohertz 441 kilohertz like [TS]

  that's the number of samples per second [TS]

  that is recording into your wave file [TS]

  the problem is that computers are not [TS]

  perfect these are not you know these [TS]

  these all come down to these little [TS]

  analog electronic components and nothing [TS]

  is perfect because everything has to be [TS]

  cheap and amazing and work all the time [TS]

  and so what what the computer thinks is [TS]

  you know x times per second will [TS]

  actually very very slightly between [TS]

  different devices between different [TS]

  computers you know whatever it whatever [TS]

  sharing the clock signal to say this is [TS]

  that I'm taking 44100 samples per second [TS]

  every computer clock is going to be very [TS]

  slightly different and it might be like [TS]

  point zero zero one percent off of yours [TS]

  but over the course of a to our podcast [TS]

  you could be off by like a full second [TS]

  by the end and so it would if you sync [TS]

  up the tracks at the beginning if you [TS]

  say I everyone clap [TS]

  and then we'll sink those collapse go to [TS]

  go an hour later in the podcast and you [TS]

  will hear that people are no longer [TS]

  lined up properly there they'll be like [TS]

  a second off or something and that's [TS]

  because of this of this difference in [TS]

  clocks in the actual analog hardware [TS]

  like the the thing that is generated a [TS]

  clock signal X times per second is just [TS]

  you know point zero zero one percent off [TS]

  of what yours was my tool was designed [TS]

  to solve both of these problems make [TS]

  something that is that is that fixes [TS]

  drift and that they know basically an [TS]

  basically sinks the file throughout the [TS]

  whole file like it since everything up [TS]

  and i just put these these wavelengths [TS]

  is important to my editor and then do [TS]

  nothing else to in that way and move on [TS]

  to the content because i want the [TS]

  podcast that I produce to sound as great [TS]

  as they possibly can sound I want them [TS]

  to have incredibly incredible high [TS]

  production values because basically I [TS]

  value you know the listeners I value [TS]

  your time I value your attention and I [TS]

  want to make sure the show sounds good [TS]

  to its easiest as possible and most [TS]

  pleasant for you to listen to you know [TS]

  making making this double ender [TS]

  recording method work well and quickly [TS]

  for me was very important so I said to [TS]

  make this thing that would line up all [TS]

  the tracks it slices of the file into [TS]

  you know it looks at a whole bunch of [TS]

  points that the file but its first out [TS]

  just in the middle and it tries to line [TS]

  up the middle so we can just get an [TS]

  approximate lineup for the whole file [TS]

  and it does this not by finding peaks [TS]

  necessarily but it's a little more [TS]

  involved in that it uses the fast [TS]

  Fourier transform fft to break the audio [TS]

  into frequencies rather than just like [TS]

  the up-and-down wave that you see like a [TS]

  wave editor it breaks down and [TS]

  frequencies for each segment so it'll [TS]

  take like a certain number of [TS]

  milliseconds and say what is the [TS]

  frequency breakdown of this for every [TS]

  little slice it takes it kinda get it [TS]

  makes a little like hash of this chunk [TS]

  of the file to say for this little [TS]

  millisecond slice [TS]

  what is the dominant frequency and it [TS]

  can if you think about like you know it [TS]

  let's suppose a transit transit into a [TS]

  ski for simplicity's sake you can say [TS]

  all right well this second of audio had [TS]

  the frequency like you know a FG you [TS]

  know I get what we [TS]

  it has it for every little slice it [TS]

  takes in that second it can basically [TS]

  build like a string and say alright well [TS]

  this is the dominant frequency of this [TS]

  slice of audio and then if you can [TS]

  imagine just sliding that up and down [TS]

  across a window of time so if you can [TS]

  say these files are probably lined up [TS]

  within 15 minutes [TS]

  like did we probably hit record within [TS]

  15 minutes of each other yes [TS]

  so there's a certain it defines a window [TS]

  and says alright well within this window [TS]

  just literally slide this around slide [TS]

  this hack so i have made of this little [TS]

  bit of audio here slide this around [TS]

  until you find the point in this range [TS]

  that it had it is the least different [TS]

  from a reference track and the reference [TS]

  track is simply it's the skype recording [TS]

  basically it is the recording of all of [TS]

  us talking so the reference track is a [TS]

  rather than trying to take these random [TS]

  files and say you know sink this to your [TS]

  ear just figure out what sounds right [TS]

  all of this is it's based on take all [TS]

  these input files from each of our [TS]

  microphones and sink them to the [TS]

  reference track that contains all of us [TS]

  and then just delete the reference track [TS]

  because then you'll have the the [TS]

  pristine awesome version of all of us [TS]

  are microphones instead of the crappy [TS]

  skype version of all of us and that's so [TS]

  it basically uses this fft to just like [TS]

  slide around and build a little hashes [TS]

  of each segment of audio and find out [TS]

  where they line up so first lines up the [TS]

  middle with very very high precision and [TS]

  then it goes throughout the whole rest [TS]

  of the file and it goes i think right [TS]

  now I have it doing it in like 10 just [TS]

  like ten percent increments like you [TS]

  know there's like so that nine other [TS]

  ones after the middle was lined up go to [TS]

  the beginning and go to the end and go [TS]

  to the steps in the middle [TS]

  how far off is the synchronization at [TS]

  those points because thing about drift [TS]

  is it tends to be fairly constant you [TS]

  know your your clock variation in those [TS]

  and how fast your your your computer's [TS]

  clock measures that time slice that [TS]

  tends to be fixed or close enough to fix [TS]

  during a two-hour podcast it then it [TS]

  goes to the ends of this scale and says [TS]

  alright well middle were perfectly lined [TS]

  up now at the beginning we are like [TS]

  point five seconds off negative negative [TS]

  15 seconds at [TS]

  the end we are point five seconds ahead [TS]

  so that means that in this time span [TS]

  we've gone from negative 52 plus [TS]

  negative 5 plus point five so that it [TS]

  basically builds you know based on [TS]

  looking at the whole file looking at [TS]

  these averages of this rate it [TS]

  interpolates an average drift for the [TS]

  whole file and it says alright well this [TS]

  looks like we are gaining point 1 [TS]

  seconds adrift per hour or you know [TS]

  whatever the rate is based on you know [TS]

  looking at all the different points in [TS]

  the file once the middle is line so then [TS]

  it just goes the beginning there was the [TS]

  beginning we'll fix that and then [TS]

  throughout the file we know we know how [TS]

  many seconds per hour or whatever we [TS]

  have to do insert or remove to sync this [TS]

  up properly so in PA it uses you know [TS]

  basic audio stuff to find periods of [TS]

  silence and use I'm pretty good deal [TS]

  with silence now [TS]

  yeah use the silence to insert or remove [TS]

  padding at opportune times where you [TS]

  won't notice and that is how it said [TS]

  that's how it's done drifts the files [TS]

  that smart as hell and the vast majority [TS]

  of the time it works and because it is [TS]

  using dominant frequencies as like the [TS]

  way to tell whether things are similar [TS]

  it is fairly immune to the volume [TS]

  differences because like the skype track [TS]

  is going to have a very different volume [TS]

  level then whatever microphone file you [TS]

  gave me it's also going to be way lower [TS]

  fidelity it's gonna happen it's gonna be [TS]

  like you know weird and possibly [TS]

  distorted in subtle ways but dominant [TS]

  frequencies tend to be the same [TS]

  regardless of you know how how you're [TS]

  gonna that's what you're hearing like it [TS]

  sounds off with the same it's gonna it's [TS]

  gonna match up pretty closely in the in [TS]

  the file and in in the frequency hashing [TS]

  thing and then so it's just in and [TS]

  because it's like i'm honestly looking [TS]

  to the exact match [TS]

  I'm just you give me a window in which i [TS]

  will likely i'm likely to find this and [TS]

  I will find like the closest match and [TS]

  then I used no confidence ratings and [TS]

  all the stuff so that's how it works [TS]

  I i wrote this I don't know two years [TS]

  ago maybe i did awhile ago and I've [TS]

  basically not touched in a few a few [TS]

  friends of ours it's kind of like a [TS]

  private alpha a few friends of ours use [TS]

  it to to edit their shows and I i have [TS]

  almost never have to touch the algorithm [TS]

  since writing it [TS]

  only the main reasons i have not [TS]

  released this yet are that there are few [TS]

  bugs but it's it's not usually bugs in [TS]

  finding in lining it up in fact the the [TS]

  rate at which your property lines things [TS]

  up is shockingly good the the main bugs [TS]

  are around things like you know well if [TS]

  one file is like 30 minutes shorter than [TS]

  the other one like a it might they might [TS]

  not line up there you might not [TS]

  understand properly because it like try [TS]

  to interpolate a value from Carlisle [TS]

  doesn't feel like there's there's some [TS]

  cleanup work needed to be done to make [TS]

  this a general usefulness really simple [TS]

  tool it would also be nice if it had a [TS]

  GUI because most people want a graphical [TS]

  interface for their applications most [TS]

  people don't want to have binaries that [TS]

  you can use from a shell script that's a [TS]

  book so that that's why this is not out [TS]

  yet and the market for special thing is [TS]

  is extremely small because it's a tool [TS]

  for podcasters and so it's hard to [TS]

  charge money and make any money from [TS]

  that and so you know I don't know I [TS]

  don't know I don't go we'll figure that [TS]

  out later i guess but i do eventually [TS]

  plan to release this because it is an [TS]

  incredibly useful tool for anybody who [TS]

  does double ending podcasting where [TS]

  you're recording local local tracks from [TS]

  people and I think the world of [TS]

  podcasting will be better off if more [TS]

  people did that and making that easier [TS]

  is therefore working towards that goal [TS]

  because one thing I really don't like [TS]

  it's a podcast listener is I should [TS]

  never know that your podcast is recorded [TS]

  with skype and what that means is I [TS]

  should never hear you talking about [TS]

  skype i should never hear skype drop out [TS]

  if there's a skype dropout you have to [TS]

  you have to worry about that needs to be [TS]

  cut from the show all discussion on [TS]

  skype should be cut from the show I [TS]

  should never H I should never know who's [TS]

  listening to you skype and I also [TS]

  shouldn't be hearing skype artifact when [TS]

  your comfort when when like somebody's [TS]

  connection is going along here take a [TS]

  little walk and they start degrading the [TS]

  bit rate down and starting a little bit [TS]

  worse little more telephonic you start [TS]

  getting worse and worse and worse and [TS]

  then you hear upgrading get better and [TS]

  better better like that was fine five [TS]

  years ago now we've moved on [TS]

  we know how to do things better now so [TS]

  podcasting should now be it we should I [TS]

  want to raise the bar like the the local [TS]

  and local recording [TS]

  should be the norm now in most cases and [TS]

  yes there are some cases where you need [TS]

  to use skype for practical reasons [TS]

  things like if you have a guest call-in [TS]

  show we're having a different guests [TS]

  every week like getting people [TS]

  microphones is already a big pan [TS]

  it's hard enough dealing with that so [TS]

  you know it's you know that there's [TS]

  certain exceptions to this but for the [TS]

  most part like if you're doing the same [TS]

  show every week with the same people i [TS]

  should never ever know that use skype so [TS]

  that's why I made this tool that's why I [TS]

  made it to save myself time hopefully [TS]

  will save more people time in the future [TS]

  make podcasting better i was kind of my [TS]

  overall goal for everything i do these [TS]

  days but it's gonna be a lot of work [TS]

  before this is in a releasable state you [TS]

  know it's funny what you said about [TS]

  never knowing that that skype was used [TS]

  because i feel like we do a really good [TS]

  job of that unless my imac that I swear [TS]

  isn't broken breaks in which case that's [TS]

  exactly why we had to use my guess was [TS]

  your recording of me for the first half [TS]

  of that show exactly and people [TS]

  justifiably we were fairly either [TS]

  confused too perturbed by it and I don't [TS]

  blame them it sounded like garbage and i [TS]

  still feel terribly guilty about that [TS]

  and then that is exactly what we're [TS]

  trying to avoid it's all your fault [TS]

  Casey it's not too bad and that's fine [TS]

  it was 20 minutes it was you know if it [TS]

  happened every week I'd be mad [TS]

  yeah but you know if it happens once in [TS]

  like a three-year run of a show [TS]

  it's not that particular know that [TS]

  that's really really interesting what [TS]

  was this written in the sea or yeah it's [TS]

  it uses objective-c its objective c [TS]

  binary food that you access five [TS]

  terminal so like it had access to [TS]

  foundation and everything but when all [TS]

  the coral the core logic and it uses the [TS]

  accelerate framework uses all the all [TS]

  the cool vsp functions for ft and [TS]

  everything and of course it runs in [TS]

  parallel so it you know this is one [TS]

  reason i like using computers lots of [TS]

  course because a lot of tools that I [TS]

  either use or make and use use principal [TS]

  dispatch to work in parallel very very [TS]

  effectively and this is like this is the [TS]

  perfect problem to paralyze it's like [TS]

  all right well take this one input file [TS]

  and just analyze all these different [TS]

  chunks and then at the end figure out [TS]

  which one had the best score that's so [TS]

  easy to paralyze so of course it does [TS]

  and [TS]

  it makes all my fans and it's just [TS]

  awesome now this is this is really [TS]

  really cool and as someone who works on [TS]

  kind of regular software both in past [TS]

  jobs in my current job I definitely get [TS]

  to solve old problems but not this kind [TS]

  of cool that that's super super [TS]

  interesting and super neat so your [TS]

  long-term plan you're still kicking the [TS]

  tires on releasing I mean I know you [TS]

  said you want to release it what is that [TS]

  like is that in the next month in the [TS]

  next six months in the next six years [TS]

  what do you think it is incredibly [TS]

  unlikely to be the next month i would [TS]

  say six months maybe a year more likely [TS]

  but i don't know it depends on what like [TS]

  even when some doing really you know i [TS]

  i'm i'm already working on my my other [TS]

  my production tool for putting in [TS]

  chapters and stuff like a morgue that's [TS]

  a different this is that this is a [TS]

  different app so there's that and I have [TS]

  you know I have this collection of the [TS]

  shell script that does all sorts of [TS]

  other useful things like compress and [TS]

  decompress logic projects there's all [TS]

  sorts of crazy to fight that I have for [TS]

  making podcasting easier and so there's [TS]

  always this kind of debate of like you [TS]

  know which of these things could I or [TS]

  should I make into a product and with [TS]

  these things you just a shell script [TS]

  that I that I use and maybe give a [TS]

  couple of friends because the others a [TS]

  lot of work involved makes me a product [TS]

  and it probably isn't worth it for a lot [TS]

  of these so you know time will tell but [TS]

  uh up releasing someday you should [TS]

  release like the market armament podcast [TS]

  get the honestly that that's kind of [TS]

  what I was thinking that I might do some [TS]

  day but you know cause like the you [TS]

  could argue maybe I can just make one [TS]

  grand app that had like incorporate all [TS]

  the stuff and I don't think that's right [TS]

  or at least that one grant app would [TS]

  have to also be the editor and while [TS]

  some day that might be cool i'm [TS]

  certainly nowhere near ready to tackle [TS]

  that kind of problem right now so [TS]

  eventually there might be one grant app [TS]

  that you know it is the editor and the [TS]

  encoder and the recorder and you know [TS]

  and all this stuff that'd be fine but [TS]

  that we are not there today so probably [TS]

  a collection of small apps may be sold [TS]

  as a pack or something i don't even know [TS]

  but we'll see you know this whole iOS [TS]

  app think it's kinda hard to make money [TS]

  these days so maybe i'll switch over [TS]

  this kind of stuff [TS]

  good luck my friend thank you I think [TS]

  we're good [TS]

  alright thanks to our sponsors this week [TS]

  betterment tracker and indochino and we [TS]

  will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental John research Marco [TS]

  and Casey would let him [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  and you can find the show know today d p [TS]

  dot and if your twitter follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

  let's see recuse it's [TS]

  what [TS]

  talk about now is a the the whole [TS]

  there's nothing new happening in the [TS]

  news and why you guys are cranky about [TS]

  it [TS]

  alright so so to recap a couple of weeks [TS]

  ago or last week whatever it was I made [TS]

  a flippant remark i think it was me [TS]

  saying there's no other news this week [TS]

  or something like that and this was this [TS]

  was during a week where there was a lot [TS]

  of world news and and political news and [TS]

  you know the news you know things things [TS]

  like police shootings and then and there [TS]

  was a lot of like you know news but I [TS]

  was really just saying there wasn't tech [TS]

  news but I said it was a slow news week [TS]

  I didn't say it was a slow technews week [TS]

  so you know a few people were [TS]

  understandably no concern about that or [TS]

  disagree or were offended by that and i [TS]

  think this is first and foremost attack [TS]

  show and there's all sorts of horrible [TS]

  things that happened in the world and [TS]

  and sometimes we do cover things that [TS]

  are not it directly like what apple has [TS]

  released this week or whatever else [TS]

  we've covered you know things subjects [TS]

  such as women in technology and online [TS]

  harassment things like this that that [TS]

  are partly tech issues but also are [TS]

  partly like societal issues or other [TS]

  issues in general though we do focus [TS]

  mostly on the geeky stuff it in a world [TS]

  where there is so much horribleness that [TS]

  happens in the real world and this stuff [TS]

  gets to me in real life and the world of [TS]

  tech is a is like a vacation from it's a [TS]

  break from that it is it is this nice [TS]

  little world but we can pretend like all [TS]

  that matters in the world is how long [TS]

  it's been since the mac pro's updated [TS]

  and if we don't cover other things that [TS]

  like horrible things are going on in the [TS]

  world i consider that a feature not a [TS]

  bug for the most part most of the time [TS]

  because not only do do i need that and [TS]

  you know and you guys you know you can [TS]

  speak yourselves in a minute oh [TS]

  definitely not only not only do i need [TS]

  that as as a human being but I feel like [TS]

  it's important that our listeners also [TS]

  get a break from that too if they want [TS]

  to because there's so many other places [TS]

  that you can get coverage of major world [TS]

  news and political news and horrible [TS]

  tragedies and everything else [TS]

  and I think it's important that people [TS]

  have something that's that's not that [TS]

  you know when all the stuff is going on [TS]

  in the world that it the other has to be [TS]

  some some relief from that some break [TS]

  from that somewhere at some safe place [TS]

  you can go and and not here horrible [TS]

  news every week [TS]

  all right i'm gonna going to give the [TS]

  flip side of that which although I agree [TS]

  with all the things you said that like [TS]

  I'm going to present the the opposing [TS]

  argument and then explain like that the [TS]

  meta issue with why it's difficult to [TS]

  address this period like you said you [TS]

  know we know what the shows about just [TS]

  look at the past history of topics i [TS]

  think everyone agree like it to figure [TS]

  out like how this works you just go to [TS]

  extremes and see what the endpoints are [TS]

  so like one extreme would be like a [TS]

  nuclear bomb goes off in manhattan right [TS]

  if we had to show that week assuming [TS]

  Marco still alive you can say that but [TS]

  you probably wouldn't have that problem [TS]

  with solve itself [TS]

  yeah anyway if we had to show that week [TS]

  and didn't mention it it would seem [TS]

  really weird right like that's one [TS]

  extreme right as I oh yeah i know this [TS]

  is tech podcast and that's why we're not [TS]

  going to mention a nuclear bomb went off [TS]

  in Manhattan because it's not a tech [TS]

  topic right and so we won't talk about [TS]

  it everybody including us would find [TS]

  that super weird and nonsensical and it [TS]

  would stand out like a sore thumb so [TS]

  there's one extreme to the other extreme [TS]

  is like you know a bunch of people [TS]

  spaced spray-painting swastikas on the [TS]

  elementary school in my hometown right [TS]

  most of the listeners probably don't [TS]

  care about that it is not a tech issue [TS]

  but you know I would care about deeply [TS]

  right so here's an issue that i would [TS]

  care about deeply because my kids go to [TS]

  that school and i'm super concerned [TS]

  about it on my up at night thinking [TS]

  about it and it's really concerning [TS]

  right but it still doesn't pass muster [TS]

  to be on the podcast slots available so [TS]

  I feel like those are the two ends of [TS]

  the of the of the chain things that we [TS]

  you know both of them are things we care [TS]

  deeply care about because Woodall care [TS]

  deeply about nuking manhattan and i [TS]

  would care deeply about people space and [TS]

  preparing swastikas on my kids [TS]

  elementary school right but one of those [TS]

  things think we would all agree it's [TS]

  like well that's not father 480p and the [TS]

  other 1i think everyone listening we [TS]

  would agree that it would be super weird [TS]

  if we didn't mention right and so the [TS]

  trick about this thing is figuring out [TS]

  the along this spectrum between the nuke [TS]

  and like the local issue that you know [TS]

  whatever along the spectrum of issues [TS]

  that we're going to presume that like [TS]

  like Marcus and i'm assuming as well [TS]

  that we all really do personally care [TS]

  about and think about a lot of whatever [TS]

  there are many issues along with [TS]

  spectrum and the question is when does [TS]

  it become weird that we don't say [TS]

  anything right [TS]

  secondary question is all right we have [TS]

  not saying anything and anyone can pick [TS]

  the line along that spectrum like I feel [TS]

  like it's weird you didn't say anything [TS]

  about the nuclei don't put it on me we [TS]

  care about your local elementary school [TS]

  because I got my own issues right second [TS]

  thing is what if you don't just not say [TS]

  anything but in fact you say as Marco [TS]

  did you notice even spoken to protect [TS]

  you say the us-cert that this that this [TS]

  thing doesn't exist here where you say [TS]

  oh well there is no news this week right [TS]

  now obviously that's not Marco went [TS]

  meant wheel in context I think it's very [TS]

  clear what he meant but you could hear [TS]

  it and interpret it the other way right [TS]

  you know we almost become podcast all [TS]

  the time sometimes not even speaking is [TS]

  just like assuming a context that is not [TS]

  shared with the audience right up but [TS]

  positively asserting the absence of [TS]

  something is gets into the the realm of [TS]

  what everyone calls her a sure where [TS]

  you're intentionally most of the time [TS]

  erasures is like intentionally [TS]

  intentionally or unintentionally [TS]

  creating an environment where people [TS]

  sort of soaking in it can how can it [TS]

  supports a worldview where this thing is [TS]

  not an issue or is not a problem or [TS]

  doesn't exist so by positively asserting [TS]

  that nothing was going on [TS]

  it is a form of erasing the struggle of [TS]

  like black lives matter or whatever [TS]

  things are you that you know that we may [TS]

  care deeply about like the people listen [TS]

  it's like I'm providing a safe space for [TS]

  you to pretend the black lives matter [TS]

  doesn't exist right and there's a flip [TS]

  side as well Marco says I call sometimes [TS]

  you don't wanna hear about the crappy [TS]

  things never just one here is to talk [TS]

  about Casey's mac or whatever like there [TS]

  is a flip side but a ratio is a real [TS]

  thing and it happens all the time and so [TS]

  when the combination of like not being [TS]

  clear enough about this like there's no [TS]

  new tech news and really saying there's [TS]

  no news that reads exactly like a ray [TS]

  sure and I think for a lot of people [TS]

  although black lives matter and and [TS]

  police shootings and stuff is not a nuke [TS]

  on Manhattan it is close enough to the [TS]

  threshold of things that should be [TS]

  important enough that that should come [TS]

  up on ATP for people to think only think [TS]

  it should include now that judgment i [TS]

  feel like is [TS]

  you know that that's definitely judgment [TS]

  call whether you think it's appropriate [TS]

  to add but once you start positively [TS]

  asserting that starts looking like a ray [TS]

  sure that's a problem as well and then [TS]

  the meta problem is that is say this [TS]

  happens say all three of us who I [TS]

  presume all care deeply about these [TS]

  issues that we didn't mention the show [TS]

  as we do about many issues that we don't [TS]

  mention show for a variety of reasons [TS]

  and all of us basically made the [TS]

  judgment without you know the visit is [TS]

  not going to be a topic we're going to [TS]

  discuss an ATP just like there are so [TS]

  many topics that we all care about that [TS]

  we don't discuss an ATP for various [TS]

  reasons that marker outline when we end [TS]

  up with a show that some people here and [TS]

  it's like oh you know you're not only [TS]

  not discussing this but you're making it [TS]

  seem like it doesn't happen and that's [TS]

  bad because it happens all the time and [TS]

  complain to us about it [TS]

  the natural reaction is to say but you [TS]

  know it sounds like they're improving [TS]

  our motivations all but we we have to [TS]

  say but we do care about that in fact [TS]

  not only do we care about that but we're [TS]

  on the same side as you and like it's an [TS]

  important issue to us and hear the [TS]

  reasons I didn't want to talk about it [TS]

  and so on and so forth you get defensive [TS]

  essentially and so to have a show where [TS]

  you come back and have to talk about it [TS]

  in anyway it's very difficult not to [TS]

  feel like you're under attack when [TS]

  you're you feel like you're defending [TS]

  yourself for something you didn't do [TS]

  because you totally agree with them but [TS]

  at the same time there's there's no way [TS]

  to like you can't go back and add the [TS]

  the words that you didn't put there and [TS]

  you can't control how people interpret [TS]

  things because it does read like a racer [TS]

  too many people and some people you just [TS]

  gonna disagree with about what what [TS]

  makes the threshold from you know the [TS]

  the spray paint on the school and the [TS]

  new king Manhattan you might have [TS]

  disagreements on where that line is but [TS]

  the debate becomes about are you a good [TS]

  person who cares about the issues that i [TS]

  care i don't you care about this are you [TS]

  actively trying to erase this and so [TS]

  it's really difficult to come to show on [TS]

  a follow-up type thing and talk about it [TS]

  in a way that isn't immediately [TS]

  defensive right regardless of how [TS]

  everyone falls on on the various issues [TS]

  and so I think rather than delving into [TS]

  the specifics of the issue which you [TS]

  know we have new news with the egg and [TS]

  another topic that we didn't talk about [TS]

  and don't plan to like the Republican [TS]

  National Convention look rather than [TS]

  actually delving into a topic but i [TS]

  still feel like are not appropriate for [TS]

  the show I think it was more important [TS]

  to talk about the meta issue of being [TS]

  aware that even though you may agree and [TS]

  may think things are important there are [TS]

  things you can do either accidentally or [TS]

  on purpose because that can create an [TS]

  invite [TS]

  garment that makes it seem like those [TS]

  issues are less important than they are [TS]

  or gives people sort of a place where [TS]

  they can a safe haven away from those [TS]

  things in a bad way Marco talk about the [TS]

  good ways like we all care about them we [TS]

  all know about them makes us said but [TS]

  sometimes i just want to have you know [TS]

  Escape and play pokemon go like that's [TS]

  definitely a role things reply but the [TS]

  other aspect of it is that I don't think [TS]

  those are actually important and it's a [TS]

  shame that the real news and it's not [TS]

  even newsworthy and those people should [TS]

  just stop complaining and thank goodness [TS]

  i can listen to a podcast that agrees [TS]

  with me that those things are being [TS]

  concerned because nothing interesting is [TS]

  happening in the news right which is [TS]

  obviously not what any of us meant but [TS]

  it can read like that from the outside [TS]

  so it's all I you know what what should [TS]

  we do differently what should we do [TS]

  better if you just aware of that issue [TS]

  like the next time you know someone [TS]

  you're one of us says something like [TS]

  that and the context I think that's all [TS]

  is needed and and then I guess the [TS]

  secondary thing is even though it feels [TS]

  terrible to think and talk about it on [TS]

  the next show [TS]

  do it anyway because it's better than [TS]

  like if we were to just not say anything [TS]

  on the show about it i think that would [TS]

  be works is that would be like doubling [TS]

  down that would be like well I didn't [TS]

  know what a racer was and definitely [TS]

  wasn't doing it on purpose but now that [TS]

  you mention it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna [TS]

  pretend you know i'm going to pretend [TS]

  that nobody complained like just being [TS]

  spiteful about it and so you know but we [TS]

  do an ATP as the the most painful thing [TS]

  possible and then we screwed up but [TS]

  that's our way [TS]

  yeah i mean i-i naturally agree with [TS]

  that with pretty much everything both [TS]

  you guys said I don't know I I I [TS]

  absolutely felt attacked when I saw this [TS]

  feedback and it was from from somebody I [TS]

  feel like I know and definitely respect [TS]

  and that almost made it worse because i [TS]

  felt like it was coming from a person an [TS]

  individual that I felt should have known [TS]

  the context and I felt the context [TS]

  pretty obvious i actually thought for a [TS]

  long time I was the one who had set it [TS]

  and I think you might be right Marco I [TS]

  think it might have been you but it was [TS]

  Marco and also tiff and like she also [TS]

  got defensive about it like it is [TS]

  totally natural get defensive about like [TS]

  you're getting defensive about the wrong [TS]

  thing like the person is not impugning [TS]

  your motivations like everybody involved [TS]

  knows that they care about think it's [TS]

  all about like all right your [TS]

  motivations are one thing [TS]

  so you know judge ourselves by our [TS]

  motivations but others by their actions [TS]

  you're being judged by your actions even [TS]

  your own intentional actions or even [TS]

  marcos an intentional act like it's like [TS]

  doesn't matter what you were thinking it [TS]

  only matters what you said and how it [TS]

  might be interpreted by people who are [TS]

  predisposed to look for a place where [TS]

  they where someone is positively [TS]

  asserting you know that these people [TS]

  don't matter you know I mean like that's [TS]

  and that is a tough way to be judged and [TS]

  has nothing to do with motivations and [TS]

  you can totally feel like you're being [TS]

  attacked but if you're not aware that [TS]

  even a thing [TS]

  it's hard to understand what's the big [TS]

  deal like you know and I know we all [TS]

  know together that we care about this [TS]

  isn't carrying enough and you know I [TS]

  didn't do this on purpose and you know [TS]

  the context and it should be clear to [TS]

  people listening all that is we can all [TS]

  agree on that and still say yeah but not [TS]

  everyone is on that same page and not [TS]

  everyone understands your motivations [TS]

  and those you as well as I do and all [TS]

  were left with is your actions and your [TS]

  actions can have a small harmful effect [TS]

  and just letting you know like maybe [TS]

  that's something to be careful about I [TS]

  think about it at least talk about on [TS]

  the following show which I feel like [TS]

  we're we're doing and that's the right [TS]

  thing to do [TS]

  despite the fact that we all feel like [TS]

  defensive and immediately about it's [TS]

  just human nature [TS]

  oh yeah i was extremely Reggie when this [TS]

  was flying by on Twitter it was the [TS]

  angriest stuff gotten at something I've [TS]

  seen on twitter that that affected me [TS]

  personally in a long time [TS]

  really because you thought people saying [TS]

  you're a bad person basically and just [TS]

  like you said John what would in a wall [TS]

  just because I didn't bring it up it [TS]

  doesn't mean I don't care and I think [TS]

  it's abundantly obvious to anyone who's [TS]

  ever listen to the show that the the [TS]

  assumed context for Marco statement was [TS]

  in technology and i think it's it's [TS]

  unfair of me to assume that at anyone [TS]

  else is coming from the same point but I [TS]

  was deeply bothered by it and i still am [TS]

  pretty fired up about it I i feel that i [TS]

  could get all my the explanation didn't [TS]

  help you get a handle on this because [TS]

  you should totally like does that mean [TS]

  like I I think information was was very [TS]

  good and it migrated made a lot of sense [TS]

  to me also and I i agree with you like [TS]

  you know the thing about being a [TS]

  spectrum of like you know to say if you [TS]

  if you said look here but with like just [TS]

  like you said [TS]

  nothing happened this weekend you meant [TS]

  in tech but a new kind of Manhattan that [TS]

  week like that would be really [TS]

  outrageous to end its many bars there is [TS]

  no historical issue of a ratio of [TS]

  nuclear bombs going off in the United [TS]

  States sure but there is there is a long [TS]

  there's a context for specific issues of [TS]

  like not caring about it when when black [TS]

  people get shot by police officers like [TS]

  the idea that you know but thats that [TS]

  it's a systemic issues that there is [TS]

  specific context to this and that doing [TS]

  in this context even accidentally so [TS]

  much more worse so much worse than doing [TS]

  in the context of a new going off [TS]

  because it would just seem super weird i [TS]

  was using that as an extreme yeah [TS]

  there's no history of a ratio that is no [TS]

  systemic prejudice against talking about [TS]

  that there's no history of devaluing [TS]

  that and saying it's not as important as [TS]

  other stories you know I mean like [TS]

  there's so much baggage and weight [TS]

  behind this and and I think all of us or [TS]

  just you know i mean at least i know i [TS]

  was following all this stuff and Twitter [TS]

  and reading about it is depressing and [TS]

  it is upsetting and that could be [TS]

  conscious decision not to talk about it [TS]

  but like if you accidentally end up [TS]

  saying something that could be read as a [TS]

  race sure I understand but people will [TS]

  be like even if they don't personally [TS]

  know that you didn't mean it as a racer [TS]

  doesn't matter what you mean all that [TS]

  matters is what you ended up saying and [TS]

  how it might be interpreted and then you [TS]

  are adding a tiny pebble to the jet [TS]

  gigantic wall in the context of this [TS]

  issue and it's very difficult when you [TS]

  do something we could have negative [TS]

  consequences [TS]

  none of which you intended or might not [TS]

  even understand right and so you totally [TS]

  would feel attackers like how can i have [TS]

  done something wrong when I didn't mean [TS]

  to do anything wrong and I don't even [TS]

  understand the wrongness that i did it's [TS]

  still possible still totally possible to [TS]

  do something everyone probably wrong but [TS]

  not have meant anything wrong be totally [TS]

  in agreement with the people who are [TS]

  identifying the wrong thing that you did [TS]

  and like like that is possible it's hard [TS]

  to square that and so like I think [TS]

  you're still holding onto the idea that [TS]

  someone is calling you a bad person like [TS]

  nobody is right [TS]

  nobody's saying that there is a point [TS]

  that we're just that we you know that we [TS]

  stumbled in a mistake and maybe they're [TS]

  being more harsh on us than you think [TS]

  they should like if you spend your time [TS]

  trying to defend your motivations you're [TS]

  never going to think about your actions [TS]

  in a broader context and it's like it's [TS]

  counterproductive like you're only [TS]

  you're only gonna go more distant that [TS]

  way rather than trying to figure out [TS]

  pata gotta [TS]

  how to come closer together whatever and [TS]

  it people are gonna be upset they have [TS]

  the right to be upset that like it since [TS]

  there's no reason I well now i'm going [TS]

  to double down on my unintentional [TS]

  mistake by trying to make intentional [TS]

  lines right it's like you know it's like [TS]

  it's like if you learned that like a [TS]

  word that you used was actually like [TS]

  racist and you didn't know that [TS]

  oh yeah totally same thing yeah it's [TS]

  like it's worth knowing that it's worth [TS]

  learning that is what I'm telling you [TS]

  that [TS]

  and even though you didn't mean to be [TS]

  racist or you don't have those feelings [TS]

  you because you didn't even know the [TS]

  origins like is right it was just right [TS]

  but it's still it's still shouldn't use [TS]

  it and so it's like it you know that the [TS]

  the most so well just thing is due to [TS]

  thank the person for telling you but [TS]

  human things they were you saying I'm a [TS]

  racist like that's how everyone feels [TS]

  like you should know i'm not you know me [TS]

  thats that's absurd and now you know [TS]

  like yeah it has ultimate example of [TS]

  this is the word spaz which in American [TS]

  English is not or to any spending circle [TS]

  I've ever traveled in anyway it's not [TS]

  derogatory whereas in British English [TS]

  it's hugely derogatory and stronger and [TS]

  was able to send English yeah it's a [TS]

  problematic it you know it's like when I [TS]

  was commissioned to like lay more [TS]

  gameplay like you're horribly named open [TS]

  source project things that many people [TS]

  have never thought about including me [TS]

  until fairly recently [TS]

  yeah sure you just you just didn't know [TS]

  but yeah like someone pointing it out to [TS]

  you it you know depending on how they do [TS]

  it or whatever like it's not on them to [TS]

  like break it to you gently it's on you [TS]

  to figure out how to separate your [TS]

  feelings about are you saying I you know [TS]

  I hate disabled people from the idea [TS]

  that this thing you've been doing [TS]

  unintentionally has an effect on other [TS]

  people you might not have realized so [TS]

  incorporate that into your decisions [TS]

  about whether you're going to do that [TS]

  going forward right that's why I've [TS]

  tried to remove that word from my [TS]

  vernacular because i don't want to be [TS]

  offensive [TS]

  it's real and it's really hard to do [TS]

  like I don't know trying to remove [TS]

  things from regulators here myself doing [TS]

  them all the time [TS]

  oh yeah you know trying like we know [TS]

  we're trying but all people know is what [TS]

  we say so it's gonna be like when [TS]

  someone says you actually let something [TS]

  slip you like well try and man I mean [TS]

  that's true but would also like you'd [TS]

  like if if you're trying it's still [TS]

  right for somebody to call you at every [TS]

  time you mess up exactly like it you [TS]

  just have to just have to you [TS]

  no separate constructive criticism is a [TS]

  two-way street like people can criticize [TS]

  you and unconstructive way and you can [TS]

  take constructive things from it and [TS]

  people can criticize you a constructive [TS]

  way and you can you know not handle it [TS]

  well and not take it in a constructive [TS]

  manner like so it's yeah it helps if [TS]

  it's constructive coming in but either [TS]

  way you can mess it up on your end by [TS]

  deciding that you your your heart [TS]

  feelings are more important than [TS]

  whatever the issue is that's being [TS]

  highlighted it and I think that's [TS]

  exactly the the hit i fell into is I I i [TS]

  personally don't think that the [TS]

  complaint that was lodged terribly [TS]

  constructively but i absolutely agree [TS]

  with you that I did in to some degree [TS]

  still am letting my emotions get in the [TS]

  way of the bigger picture which is we [TS]

  should have we should phrase things [TS]

  better and or corrected each other after [TS]

  having this phrase them and then the [TS]

  reason i didn't notice because it you [TS]

  know i have that assume context that not [TS]

  everyone does but what also made it even [TS]

  worse was this was someone i feel like i [TS]

  know and i felt like a bazooka was used [TS]

  when it wasn't absolutely necessary [TS]

  which here again is feelings [TS]

  no i mean like a you know to me like you [TS]

  know that the fact that a friend of ours [TS]

  said it is is almost irrelevant you know [TS]

  that it's if anything that's what [TS]

  friends are for start singing the song [TS]

  yeah like if anything like if a random [TS]

  person who I didn't know they called us [TS]

  out on it i might not have taken it [TS]

  seriously they did but I didn't take it [TS]

  in a hurtful I i was surprised but I was [TS]

  it was more just like hide and think [TS]

  about that way at all and yeah it was [TS]

  you know it's like when you're called an [TS]

  unintentional racism or something it's [TS]

  like I wasn't thinking along those lines [TS]

  at all but now that you mention it yeah [TS]

  I didn't really say that very well and [TS]

  and so again it's it's worth being told [TS]

  in a way that you will notice and it's [TS]

  worth correcting it and that's why you [TS]

  should do this to your friends like we [TS]

  have to take it more seriously from [TS]

  their friends the bad side of that is [TS]

  that many people when a friend does it [TS]

  like that's the end of the friendship [TS]

  and World War now and I hate that person [TS]

  never speak to them again that is not [TS]

  taking construct like both of you like [TS]

  trees [TS]

  yeah you can deliver that bad [TS]

  on one end and it can be taken badly on [TS]

  the other and you could do one or the [TS]

  like it can end badly many different [TS]

  ways but it's difficult but you'd like [TS]

  this is what you want your friends to do [TS]

  because again if a stranger lots of [TS]

  things that strangers say you just let [TS]

  it roll off your back because like that [TS]

  especially that's just a skill you have [TS]

  to have become strangers will say all [TS]

  sorts of awful things to you mom but [TS]

  this is what your friends are there to [TS]

  do for you and if you don't have that [TS]

  kind of relationship with your friends [TS]

  in either direction like if you hang out [TS]

  with your friends your friends are [TS]

  constantly making racist jokes and you [TS]

  do a fake laugh but you don't believe [TS]

  any of that like it's not on the same [TS]

  you're not on the same page with that [TS]

  but you feel like you can't call them on [TS]

  it like I don't know that feel like [TS]

  that's it that's a bad situation to be [TS]

  in [TS]

  you know it's it like express yourself [TS]

  but I explain how it makes you feel when [TS]

  you're making racist jokes and that's [TS]

  the end of the friendship like I feel [TS]

  like that's the appropriate course of [TS]

  events rather than to just you know that [TS]

  if you soak in that environment long [TS]

  enough you will become normalized and [TS]

  you like it's not a big deal i have this [TS]

  person was a great person loves kids and [TS]

  yeah it makes racist joke sometimes but [TS]

  who cares it's like that's that's how we [TS]

  end up where we are you can't stand up [TS]

  with that stuff normalized yeah and you [TS]

  know several years ago now i watched [TS]

  this thing that ended up becoming very [TS]

  popular was Randy pouches last lecture [TS]

  and probably brought it up in the past [TS]

  and it was a no a professor from [TS]

  Carnegie Mellon and actually believed [TS]

  had been a instructor evaa as well and [TS]

  he did this this left he will use [TS]

  diagnosed with terminal cancer in and [TS]

  did this thing that was supposed to be a [TS]

  last lecture really for his kids he [TS]

  talked about in that last lecture to [TS]

  your point that when people stop [TS]

  correcting you that's a really crummy [TS]

  place to be and as Radiesse husband / [TS]

  that's the dire exchange i do agree with [TS]

  what you said and I am thankful for the [TS]

  correction even if I wish it had been [TS]

  delivered differently and i wish i had [TS]

  responded differently [TS]

  yeah me too although i have less run [TS]

  without was delivered and I didn't [TS]

  respond so in other words you handled it [TS]

  a lot better than I did but your [TS]

  response responded now I I didn't [TS]

  respond in the moment they're also [TS]

  because i missed the moment when it [TS]

  happened but me to actually i was like i [TS]

  like i didn't even have twitter open [TS]

  while this is [TS]

  going on in the night I caught up like [TS]

  our leader like oh no this happened [TS]

  yeah yeah anyway no but sometimes not [TS]

  responding in the moment is the right [TS]

  thing to do to give yourself time to [TS]

  digest didn't get distance before you [TS]

  say things they regret more things that [TS]

  you were going anyway [TS]

  oh yeah i highly recommend using an app [TS]

  on your Mac to automatically quit [TS]

  Twitter battery on a frequent basis [TS]

  it really does help quite a lot in a lot [TS]

  of ways in life i'm waiting for it to be [TS]

  available the mac app star [TS]