The Accidental Tech Podcast

191: The Failure Mode of a Train


  we didn't talk about this on the show [TS]

  but the most important revelation of [TS]

  cases video him sending me the dollar is [TS]

  just how terrible is in writing is my [TS]

  wow so here's why it's extra awful like [TS]

  my handwriting is like chicken scratch I [TS]

  have terrible handwriting right but [TS]

  yours is terrible but then it has an [TS]

  extra flavor and the extra flavor it's [TS]

  terrible you and you do unconventional [TS]

  things you connect the letters in ways [TS]

  that other people don't so it's not just [TS]

  you let your sloppily drawing the letter [TS]

  shapes you decide that two letters [TS]

  should be connected like in in ways that [TS]

  are not normal so it's it's just hard to [TS]

  parse you're like is this this even [TS]

  English letters I don't even know what [TS]

  your boy that bad handwriting marketing [TS]

  before the show that he was having a [TS]

  little bit of troubles with the [TS]

  livestream and and I don't understand [TS]

  why for a moment until you started [TS]

  explaining to me what's going on and [TS]

  then I realized oh yes i'm having [TS]

  similar problems but manifesting [TS]

  themselves in different ways so why [TS]

  don't you tell the listeners what's [TS]

  going on [TS]

  ok so as you might have noticed the [TS]

  tweet that announce that we are going to [TS]

  be live the the time duration that was [TS]

  in that we normally it's like we'll be [TS]

  live in 45 minutes you know usually at [TS]

  tristar livestream about a half hour or [TS]

  a little more before recording and today [TS]

  the time interval was seven minutes 48 [TS]

  minutes i forget which one [TS]

  and the reason it looks longer set up i [TS]

  was here at eight-thirty i was here at [TS]

  the 30-minute mark trying to get going [TS]

  and I realize all afternoon and evening [TS]

  hover has been going through this [TS]

  massive ddos attack that has taken down [TS]

  among other things their dns servers [TS]

  market organs who is hosted by hover [TS]

  registered over and I use their dns [TS]

  market orgs VPS is what hosts the [TS]

  icecast server the powers this live [TS]

  stream is basically spent the last half [TS]

  hour trying to first see if i can get it [TS]

  working just by IP address but that was [TS]

  going to be tricky because of various [TS]

  virtual hosting things and eventually i [TS]

  just created a whole new host name [TS]

  however didn't register dot FM's for a [TS]

  while I actually don't know if they do I [TS]

  think they might now but for a long time [TS]

  they didn't register dot FM's so ATP FM [TS]

  is registered at Gandhi dotnet so I [TS]

  quickly ran over there created a new [TS]

  domain name live by ATP FM hopeful hope [TS]

  that propagated in time you know to be [TS]

  requested by anybody and fortunately it [TS]

  did I created that name like 840 and [TS]

  basically move the whole thing over to [TS]

  that and it's point to the same IP point [TS]

  the same server and basically required [TS]

  only a very quick creation of a new [TS]

  virtual host on the market or server to [TS]

  just recognize that hostname give it a [TS]

  little like tiny little HTML page that [TS]

  basically embed the audio player and [TS]

  that all worked and it was great and [TS]

  there we go so now we are streaming from [TS]

  live by ATP dfm instead of market org [TS]

  colon 8080 or whatever it was and [TS]

  actually appears the the dns is my [TS]

  actually had just ended but oh well [TS]

  people are starting to tweet at me [TS]

  saying oh your sites and sites and sites [TS]

  down and out for a fleeting moment I was [TS]

  like oh did I get fireball that's [TS]

  exciting or something like that then I [TS]

  thought no this was just a link post I [TS]

  wouldn't be fireballs for that and then [TS]

  it occurred to me oh no this is a much [TS]

  greater issue entirely it i think it [TS]

  really says a lot about how little i [TS]

  blog anymore that my site has basically [TS]

  been up and down for the last five or [TS]

  six hours whenever this started [TS]

  mm and I got in total one tweet about it [TS]

  oh I'm so i'm so glad that i haven't had [TS]

  to deal with stuff like that in my [TS]

  various server administration stuff [TS]

  that's got to be held deal with deal [TS]

  with DDoS yeah i can imagine especially [TS]

  if you mean imagine if you hover where [TS]

  your you know your your hosting dns for [TS]

  so many people like that that's good [TS]

  that's your business to some degree and [TS]

  God [TS]

  No thank you I'm glad that's not my [TS]

  problem i'm curious for the people in [TS]

  the chat who are recommending different [TS]

  dns providers i guess i don't know this [TS]

  i probably should know this isn't your [TS]

  registrar like the top authority so like [TS]

  if somebody had a totally empty cache [TS]

  let's suppose my burger star is still [TS]

  hover but suppose I host the dns [TS]

  somewhere else like cloudflare whatever [TS]

  if a new request goes to fetch my dns [TS]

  that has no cash information and any [TS]

  stage it away is at first going to go to [TS]

  my register r2 c2 the nse's and then go [TS]

  to the NS so it basically like wood what [TS]

  I have to check my record store in order [TS]

  to prevent this from being from ever hit [TS]

  me again how would you how would it know [TS]

  you go to your registrar I don't know [TS]

  how does it I don't know how did how [TS]

  does dns actually work at the very low [TS]

  level i have no idea you should read a [TS]

  lot of the o'reilly books on dns and [TS]

  buying something vague recollection and [TS]

  the only way that occurs to me now as I [TS]

  think about it was probably informed by [TS]

  my vague recollection is if you've got [TS]

  no information you can't start by going [TS]

  to the name server for that domain [TS]

  because you don't know what the name [TS]

  server domain is so there's a set of [TS]

  root nameservers that handle requests at [TS]

  you know that you that shouldn't handle [TS]

  requests at all because there was so [TS]

  many layers of cashing in between but if [TS]

  you really started from nothing to set [TS]

  of root nameservers not [TS]

  whatever and I don't know who those root [TS]

  nameservers are and I don't know if [TS]

  there is a more complicated system in [TS]

  place that makes this old information [TS]

  obviously because i read this book in [TS]

  the nineties but that is my recollection [TS]

  yeah and other people chatting to be [TS]

  supporting the fact that basically like [TS]

  if you don't use your registrar's [TS]

  nameservers that your regular is not [TS]

  involved in looking you up for dns van [TS]

  anyway that goes up up through the I can [TS]

  and Aaron maintained master server stuff [TS]

  like that you're saying so it sounds [TS]

  like I can stick with her for the [TS]

  registration and just move the dns [TS]

  somewhere else so that's good i think i [TS]

  might do that just move it somewhere [TS]

  smaller basically it's time for you to [TS]

  run your own dns server hey why don't [TS]

  you write your own dns server it's a [TS]

  sense of thing that people have done [TS]

  before [TS]

  just ask those people they they love it [TS]

  well actually it's funny bring this up [TS]

  and I'm not trying to be funny one thing [TS]

  that that I've wondered i keep meaning [TS]

  to ask Marco but i but i keep forgetting [TS]

  about it and this is a perfect [TS]

  opportunity when you're building tumblr [TS]

  and you are giving people subdomains [TS]

  weren't you well maybe not you [TS]

  personally but I'm saying tumblr was [TS]

  making someone was giving people [TS]

  submarines how did that work exactly it [TS]

  excellent question so the problem as you [TS]

  know but our listeners might not you [TS]

  know basically the idea is if you have [TS]

  some giant web service and you try to [TS]

  have people like hosted remains there so [TS]

  basically pointing their dns to you if [TS]

  they're hosting a sub-domain like [TS] they can point that to a [TS]

  cname and a cname could just be like you [TS]

  know host at at or [TS]

  whatever and [TS]

  and then that PostScript that can lead [TS]

  anywhere square face wanted to it could [TS]

  lead to a whole bunch of load balancers [TS]

  can be geographically distributed can be [TS]

  moved around between hosting servers it [TS]

  needs to [TS]

  it's great the problem is that the very [TS]

  root entry so like instead of [TS] if it's just Casey [TS] with no W that can't point to a [TS]

  scene that has to be an a record for it [TS]

  to work in a record he needs to be an IP [TS]

  address so you basically have to have a [TS]

  special kind of IP address that you can [TS]

  route to different servers as needed or [TS]

  you could like if you just have that as [TS]

  a load balancer they sold there are [TS]

  certain very advanced routing things you [TS]

  can do to make that not crazy but [TS]

  they're not easy and they are limited [TS]

  when usually only have when you have the [TS]

  IP instead of instead of like a cname [TS]

  what we did for the first couple years [TS]

  tumblr started a rackspace they started [TS]

  out with one server rack space and [TS]

  eventually grew to three servers [TS]

  Rackspace and then it was like oh Sh [TS]

  rackspace is ridiculously expensive we [TS]

  will never be able to afford to scale [TS]

  here so we very quickly moved over to [TS]

  what was then called the planet which is [TS]

  now today softlayer we had already [TS]

  started telling people to point their [TS]

  their names at this one IP that we had a [TS]

  Rackspace's usual it was are like master [TS]

  server with a load balancer on it we [TS]

  moved to the planet we kept one server [TS]

  at rackspace for a long time I i had to [TS]

  be at least two years into intertemporal [TS]

  like insane growth where if you had [TS]

  looked at our dns help page before [TS]

  assert before like you know six months [TS]

  into into the service you your domain [TS]

  would have been point there which is [TS]

  many of our very large users being [TS]

  proxied through forget whether it was [TS]

  squid or a crap what's that shape Roxy [TS]

  yes it was quitter a proxy running on [TS]

  this one rackspace server for years [TS]

  proxy all this old traffic and [TS]

  eventually shut that down i think but it [TS]

  was years and years into the service and [TS]

  then we're at the planet we basically [TS]

  had like some kind of floating IP that [TS]

  their routers could assign to anything [TS]

  within the data center and that that [TS]

  made that a little bit easier and i'm [TS]

  sure with like geo dns you might have [TS]

  more options i don't know enough about [TS]

  say fortunately about time company to [TS]

  care about stuff like that i was gone it [TS]

  was my job anymore but with it but that [TS]

  was all for like me redirecting my own [TS]

  domains hit to tumblr right so how does [TS]

  like something got work [TS]

  though [TS]

  well that's that's just a wild-card [TS]

  virtualhost that's like like the the web [TS]

  servers just literally had wildcard [TS]

  virtual host and the insulating like the [TS]

  the PHP app that would get the invite [TS]

  request which is look at the host name [TS]

  was and then dispatches from there [TS]

  that's cheating why I don't know I'm [TS]

  just kidding [TS]

  it wasn't much i was expecting this like [TS]

  super long and involved answer and I was [TS]

  super simple and boring i'm disappointed [TS]

  sorry but that's alright I'll forgive [TS]

  you this once all right we should [TS]

  probably get to follow proper i think i [TS]

  have all of the follow up this week [TS]

  which is making not very uncomfortable [TS]

  to be honest but we're gonna roll with [TS]

  it if I'm here Casey and you're here [TS]

  doesn't make it our follow-up the am but [TS]

  I am the one who put all of the three [TS]

  bullets into the into the show notes [TS]

  which is I should first and I'm not [TS]

  feeling too comfortable with this [TS]

  I mean in reality isn't always basically [TS]

  John's follow-up basically but here we [TS]

  are [TS]

  so anyway I'm a friend of the show's [TS]

  dietrich-smith put up Twitter poll don't [TS]

  know week ago maybe a little over a week [TS]

  ago [TS]

  it says listening to the latest HP FM [TS]

  curious did you turn on desktop and [TS]

  documents iCloud sink in mac OS Sierra i [TS]

  did and i'm happy with it now [TS]

  steve is a very prolific iOS developer [TS]

  hacker so you have to consider that when [TS]

  you consider the people sort of person [TS]

  that is likely to follow him and the [TS]

  poll results results as we record [TS]

  30-percent yes and I'm happy with it [TS]

  four percent yes and I regretted it [TS]

  twenty-nine percent know and the winner [TS]

  37-percent hell no I just thought was [TS]

  kind of interesting so yeah so thanks to [TS]

  Steve for putting that up i don't [TS]

  believe in the official twitter client [TS]

  thus I cannot create polls I love seeing [TS]

  that the EMT the empty space where polls [TS]

  should be as eyebrows twitter yet you [TS]

  can sense like this must be a pole but [TS]

  this to it doesn't make sense [TS]

  oh well i'll never see it and I [TS]

  you on my way yeah so this obviously [TS]

  this is not a scientific poll whatever [TS]

  it's just twitter stuff the fact that [TS]

  most people have been scared away from [TS]

  this feature like i said if it's a bunch [TS]

  of nerds following you know I never [TS]

  Twitter account and makes sense that [TS]

  they would be the people who are reading [TS]

  reviews and becoming or listen to our [TS]

  podcast and being scared away from the [TS]

  feature so that's why the vast majority [TS]

  of like no I did not enable this feature [TS]

  and that's why hell no wins because [TS]

  these people are afraid of the future [TS]

  because they read scary things about the [TS]

  other possibility is if you know even if [TS]

  they do the things they read about her [TS]

  and that scary they may be in a [TS]

  situation like me where they know [TS]

  they're now liar that they have a lot of [TS]

  files or they have some very large files [TS]

  and I think you've never works for most [TS]

  people i know i'm at the edge of the [TS]

  envelope here and I probably shouldn't [TS]

  enable it but if you just look at the [TS]

  people who did in a bullet most unhappy [TS]

  with it right so four percent yes and I [TS]

  regretted isn't isn't that big number [TS]

  and of course the people are happy with [TS]

  it maybe they're happy with it now you [TS]

  wait a year to see how happy they are [TS]

  because you know all it takes is one [TS]

  thing that goes awry it you become you [TS]

  know upset about but anyway um yeah it's [TS]

  really difficult to get a read on these [TS]

  things without an actual an actual study [TS]

  controlling for all the variables [TS]

  especially when nerdy people like us ask [TS]

  about it because it's a self-selecting [TS]

  group i wanted to also briefly touch on [TS]

  my headphones [TS]

  last week we had talked about how my [TS]

  beloved but ancient and adorably crappy [TS]

  headphones i had kicked the bucket well [TS]

  sort of [TS]

  they weren't cooperating well with my [TS]

  work laptop with Sierra which is the [TS]

  laptop that they're pretty much always [TS]

  connected to and I'd solicited [TS]

  suggestions for alternatives and [TS]

  promptly ignored every single one of [TS]

  them because guess what headphones [TS]

  spontaneously started working again the [TS]

  old crappy adorable headphones yeah yeah [TS]

  i was very excited about this [TS]

  I did you a PM reset which I didn't have [TS]

  a chance to do before the show [TS]

  of course this was I was shotgunning and [TS]

  just trying everything under the Sun to [TS]

  try to figure out how to make them work [TS]

  again and i'm not entirely clear what it [TS]

  was that did it for sure i think i had [TS]

  rebooted at least once it is that what [TS]

  shotgunning means it's like trying to [TS]

  headphones at once yes I'm like that I [TS]

  don't steal shotguns they spray a bunch [TS]

  of little pellets everywhere at least [TS]

  that's my understanding [TS]

  I don't don't don't even [TS]

  me and now we're here for gun people i [TS]

  know place tonight I'm so sorry god I'm [TS]

  so sorry anyway um so I wanted to [TS]

  quickly cover a handful of options if [TS]

  you're in a similar scenario that i [TS]

  heard a lot of responses from the first [TS]

  one the motorola motorola s305 these [TS]

  links will be in the show notes [TS]

  those are the ones I used prior to the [TS]

  ones that i am currently using and i [TS]

  love them except that the battery went [TS]

  to crap pretty darn quickly and I used [TS]

  to be able to make it through an entire [TS]

  day very fast and by honor maybe six [TS]

  months or a year after getting them i [TS]

  could no longer make an entire day with [TS]

  the s05 there were a lot of suggestions [TS]

  for the plantronics backbeat it which [TS]

  have the behind the neck head bone head [TS]

  bone wow the behind the neck brace if [TS]

  you will that I had been requesting [TS]

  because i'm too prissy to have my hair [TS]

  squashed but those were also kind of [TS]

  sort of earbuds into me if I'm going to [TS]

  go here but sometimes we'll just go air [TS]

  pods and battery potential battery [TS]

  issues be damned [TS]

  but those were very very popular very [TS]

  very popular response i was almost going [TS]

  to buy our next set which is the kidney [TS]

  though Kim evo-devo I don't know [TS]

  quinoa a bth 60v to France SI è qui [TS]

  know was that commercial who's ready for [TS]

  some football but food commercial anyway [TS]

  point being the novella bth 260 and [TS]

  there is another there's an older [TS]

  version i don't recall the model name [TS]

  number whatever that did not support apt [TS]

  x but this pair apparently does and this [TS]

  is what I was about to buy when my plate [TS]

  by old bluetooth headphones came back to [TS]

  life then there are a lot of people [TS]

  suggested various kinds of earbuds but [TS]

  with shoulder neck carniss things those [TS]

  things always look horrible to me like [TS]

  those always look like the worst develop [TS]

  all worlds basically it's like you have [TS]

  this like you have the the discomfort of [TS]

  earbuds and and all the crappy sound [TS]

  that usually goes along with them and [TS]

  but you don't have like the tiny like [TS]

  you know tiny little size or wrap around [TS]

  the phone kind of cable you still have [TS]

  this big block of battery [TS]

  crap you have to deal with and it's just [TS]

  like I don't I don't get why everybody [TS]

  likes those please don't write in yeah [TS]

  and i completely agree with everything [TS]

  you just said they're very very many [TS]

  different flavors of this particular [TS]

  example of putting in the show notes is [TS]

  the LG tone pro HPS 750 and again these [TS]

  will be in the show notes are i [TS]

  completely agree with you at the thought [TS]

  of having this thing resting on my [TS]

  shoulders you also have an earbud seems [TS]

  like the worst of all worlds [TS]

  not for me but but definitely on paper [TS]

  it sounds like it would be good because [TS]

  presumably it has forever long battery [TS]

  life this particular set is also apt x [TS]

  compatible etc etc the final [TS]

  recommendation which i'm actually [TS]

  looking into because they just seem very [TS]

  interesting to me is a bone in bone [TS]

  conduction is that what it's called yes [TS]

  bone conduction headphones and the way [TS]

  these works are you have these things [TS]

  thats it pressing against your cheek [TS]

  bones and they vibrate your cheekbones [TS]

  which vibrates your head in the things [TS]

  inside your head [TS]

  hopefully kind of in a not dangerous way [TS]

  a lot of people wrote in to talk about [TS]

  that and i'm actually looking into that [TS]

  as well so the aftershocks tracks as an [TS]

  example that that'll be in the show [TS]

  notes too so if you're in a similar [TS]

  situation you can look at all those or [TS]

  just try to find an ancient power like I [TS]

  have and do whatever magical incantation [TS]

  / sacrifices i did in order to get them [TS]

  to work so I'm curious its penis because [TS]

  of my whole like inability to [TS]

  comfortably wear anything any year I [TS]

  don't know the answer that i'm curious [TS]

  for all these looks like really tiny in [TS]

  ear bluetooth things what do they do for [TS]

  remote control commands things like [TS]

  volume and play pause and skip back seat [TS]

  forward do they have buttons somehow for [TS]

  that like how do they do that well and [TS]

  that's why the plantronics backbeat fit [TS]

  are a popular choice i think because [TS]

  they have those bars the rest on your [TS]

  shoulders of those those orbs that rest [TS]

  on your shoulders that that I presume [TS]

  have excuse me I'm sorry I'm getting [TS]

  myself backwards we try that all over [TS]

  again so that's why the top the [TS]

  plantronics backbeat it is popular [TS]

  because their ear buds but with like [TS]

  panels on the outside of the year but if [TS]

  that makes any sense at all and so the [TS]

  buttons are on there and additionally on [TS]

  those shoulder harness see things [TS]

  LG's and i think a few people have [TS]

  recommended Sony's that were similar [TS]

  design those I think have the buttons on [TS]

  those little like shoulder pad things or [TS]

  whatever they are that rest on your [TS]

  shoulder so i guess that works for those [TS]

  but i can't speak for any like true to [TS]

  form earbuds and I did get a lot of [TS]

  recommendations actually I can't recall [TS]

  which one was the most popular but a lot [TS]

  of recommendations for just straight-up [TS]

  earbuds that have the cord behind you [TS]

  but if i'm going to go that route I'd [TS]

  rather have like the the one of the ones [TS]

  i have today that just kind of rest on [TS]

  my ears i'm not a big earbud fan [TS]

  although that being said the more I hear [TS]

  about the air pods the more I think [TS]

  they're going on my holiday list because [TS]

  it sounds like they're the best possible [TS]

  solution in that they have almost enough [TS]

  battery life if I listen all day long [TS]

  oh jay bird x2 is all said in the chat [TS]

  on believe those are the ones that [TS]

  everyone and their mother had [TS]

  recommended anyway so I think the [TS]

  airports are probably the best bet [TS]

  because if i ever get up from my desk [TS]

  for like any reason I can pop them back [TS]

  in a little Tic Tac holder and that will [TS]

  probably give me enough juice to get [TS]

  through the rest of the day so hopefully [TS]

  Santa or the equivalent I guess Hanukkah [TS]

  Harry if you will hope he'll be good to [TS]

  me this year and maybe i'll come up with [TS]

  a set of those moving on last piece [TS]

  follow up on this I think will be a [TS]

  little bit more shared front of the show [TS]

  great könig had written a post earlier [TS]

  today about why your next iphone won't [TS]

  be ceramic and if nothing else it's a [TS]

  great post because it includes a [TS]

  screenshot of one of my favorite movies [TS]

  of all time the hunt for red october but [TS]

  what great goes through in this post is [TS]

  why he thinks and that this is probably [TS]

  not going to be a thing and if you don't [TS]

  know Greg he is uh i think a co-founder [TS]

  one of just a handful of employees of [TS]

  luma labs and they make the loop which [TS]

  is the camera strap i have on my big [TS]

  camera as we speak and that was not [TS]

  compensated by what was a gift but was [TS]

  from families or somebody paid actual [TS]

  money for it it's really great i love [TS]

  that thing and so Greg manufacturers [TS]

  stuff for living that's what he does and [TS]

  his point which he had a very long essay [TS]

  and it's worth reading every bit of it [TS]

  but if i were to [TS]

  quickly distill it down he said apples a [TS]

  hardware company and machined aluminum [TS]

  is their primary platform at peak [TS]

  production apples manufacturing roughly [TS]

  a million iphones a day so for Apple to [TS]

  bring a whole new long cycle time [TS]

  process online the sort of thing that [TS]

  would that ceramic would require they [TS]

  would need warehouses with tens of [TS]

  thousands exchanging thousands of [TS]

  machines already squared away and ready [TS]

  to rock with thousands more machines [TS]

  being built the machines that are [TS]

  building the iphones they would need to [TS]

  be thousands of those will probably need [TS]

  to be those machines would be needing to [TS]

  be built to to add to the collection [TS]

  it's already ready to rock [TS]

  so in his perspective there's no [TS]

  freaking way that's gonna happen anytime [TS]

  soon and it's really worth reading all [TS]

  because I'm Way over simplifying it but [TS]

  you should check it out we'll put it in [TS]

  the show notes one just have also it's [TS]

  like in order to to get the machines and [TS]

  tooling and everything set up to produce [TS]

  ceramic iphone cases at the scale need [TS]

  to to to you know to produce enough [TS]

  iphone instrument to meet demand they [TS]

  could theoretically do it but not only [TS]

  would it be like way way way more [TS]

  machines and space and money and people [TS]

  than what they have now but the gist of [TS]

  it was like if they were even preparing [TS]

  for that you couldn't hide that amount [TS]

  of investment and effort like that would [TS]

  take years to build up if they were [TS]

  going to do it and it would you know you [TS]

  would you would see that you would see [TS]

  people talking about noticing it and [TS]

  expenditures you see sources in the [TS]

  supply chain talking about it and [TS]

  leaking information and apple acquiring [TS]

  companies are staffing up you know in [TS]

  certain ways basically it's like it [TS]

  would be such a massive undertaking and [TS]

  just like stuff money and people that [TS]

  they really couldn't hide it by [TS]

  disguising it as a car development [TS]

  program you're always billion dollars [TS]

  will make a car who would believe that [TS]

  anyway some for the past i think the [TS]

  past now for a long time now i think [TS]

  apple has to have been internally [TS]

  looking for their next material after [TS]

  machined aluminum because [TS]

  machine-to-machine little mage began [TS]

  with the the macbook air the aluminum [TS]

  age began something before that once [TS]

  they settle the machined aluminum they [TS]

  had nice that my situation where so many [TS]

  things they made started the block of [TS]

  aluminum and these computer-controlled [TS]

  milling machine [TS]

  James you know would carve out what they [TS]

  wanted and they do that for so many [TS]

  products and that's good because then [TS]

  you've got sort of a solid thing to [TS]

  invest in things to become good at they [TS]

  buy all these machines the machines get [TS]

  faster so on and so forth the part of [TS]

  the the thing that Greg was talking [TS]

  about in the post is exactly how long [TS]

  does it take to go from raw material to [TS]

  apart and ceramic takes longer than [TS]

  machining aluminum because you gotta do [TS]

  the whole baking process or molding and [TS]

  also its first seven and I am I looking [TS]

  for the next material that's a lot of [TS]

  research and I like oh you had mentioned [TS]

  last show from carbon fibre some kind of [TS]

  surround make a different things with [TS]

  plastics I don't think they've found [TS]

  what their next thing is going to be but [TS]

  surely they are looking for it because [TS]

  they're looking for something that is [TS]

  like a net win over luminous pretty [TS]

  great [TS]

  it has something that somebody's going [TS]

  to remove the way he does easy to [TS]

  machine 22 high tolerances that you know [TS]

  that it's a sort of a known quantity [TS]

  they can mess with the formulation of [TS]

  the aluminum has a great points out and [TS]

  not have to replace the machines right [TS]

  because they can all still not going to [TS]

  change from 6,000 6000 7000 series [TS]

  aluminum they can still use all the same [TS]

  machines but it's got downsides to its [TS]

  not radio transparent it bends scratch [TS]

  ability if you're going to have a high [TS]

  gloss finish they haven't sorted out or [TS]

  whatever so anyway feel like during all [TS]

  this time and where in this aluminum and [TS]

  glass a chapel has to be looking for the [TS]

  next thing is eventually presumably [TS]

  they'll find it and when they do find it [TS]

  there is going to be you know a long [TS]

  ramp up into switching over i don't [TS]

  think you know this thing points out of [TS]

  it what are you saying about the time [TS]

  required to manufactured I i don't think [TS]

  they can use ceramic unless they solve [TS]

  that problem exists time is one of the [TS]

  problems they can't really fix right so [TS]

  if they decided some kind of ceramic [TS]

  combined with some other material like [TS]

  ceramic he says the N ceramic at the [TS]

  outside and or something else instead [TS]

  they decided this was the thing because [TS]

  it has more desirable qualities they [TS]

  have to get it down to the point where [TS]

  they can manufacture it as quickly and [TS]

  easily as aluminum or within that [TS]

  ballpark because they're not going to go [TS]

  backwards by like a 2x4 10x [TS]

  manufacturing time they just can't [TS]

  sustain that I think is right that if [TS]

  they [TS]

  made that decision there's going to be [TS]

  such a long lead time that be a wall [TS]

  know about it but as discussed last week [TS]

  like the next one's gonna be glass [TS]

  glasses i think they already know about [TS]

  their aid with the four in the forest [TS]

  this glass in the current phones that [TS]

  you know whatever [TS]

  that's the rumor it's not a big change [TS]

  they've done it before [TS]

  it's a existing material if they were [TS]

  going to do anything with ceramic and [TS]

  the watch was a trial run [TS]

  don't even think about it until like [TS]

  after you have two rounds of this glass [TS]

  down the the whatever and whatever asks [TS]

  are you know actually I'm right now pick [TS]

  up the phone the same and realize this [TS]

  is not an S generation is actually the [TS]

  seven even though it looks the same [TS]

  success anyway we're all confused now [TS]

  but yeah i still think that somewhere [TS]

  out there in our future is apple's next [TS]

  material i remember the liquid metal [TS]

  rumors he mentions that as well they [TS]

  bought that little better company and [TS]

  they had known if they made the sim I [TS]

  think they made the the same extractor [TS]

  to live liquid metal not really a big [TS]

  return on investment for that company [TS]

  but I was another possibility can we can [TS]

  we make can be like injection mold metal [TS]

  and come out with a part that it has all [TS]

  the fine details already on it because [TS]

  it's liquid metal and it flows and it's [TS]

  like plastic but you get me anyway none [TS]

  of those things have one yet [TS]

  I think the ceramic watch tells us that [TS]

  of all the possible future materials [TS]

  maybe ceramic had enough promise to say [TS]

  well even if we've eliminated as a [TS]

  possibility for our phone we can make a [TS]

  cool watch out because this marker point [TS]

  out that's not an unknown material on [TS]

  the watch world and you know they can [TS]

  give it a try but it the requirements [TS]

  for a successor to aluminum on the phone [TS]

  are pretty stringent and it could be [TS]

  that we have to work we have to go [TS]

  through a whole series of generations of [TS]

  this glass phone before we even look at [TS]

  you know carbon fiber or plastic that [TS]

  doesn't look like plastic / l house [TS]

  they're going to do so speaking of [TS]

  phones have you made it to the apple [TS]

  store it will recall i still have not [TS]

  i'm so parenting again so like I just [TS]

  haven't had time to be running around [TS]

  going to stores i still not actually [TS]

  made me up so i think i'm going to [TS]

  eventually because my wife is finally [TS]

  starting to look at like watches and [TS]

  bands and stuff and complaining about [TS]

  the combinations that she would like to [TS]

  exist that don't complain about the [TS]

  sport man colors that seemed not to [TS]

  just anymore and so on anyway that [TS]

  probably means I'm going to have an [TS]

  apple store at some point with her [TS]

  looking at watches and that's that was [TS]

  probably will get me there to mess with [TS]

  the phone [TS]

  fair enough i'm curious to hear what you [TS]

  think after you go and do it so my [TS]

  coworker jamie has a jet-black i have a [TS]

  matte black [TS]

  every time I look at my map black i am [TS]

  convinced that it is i think in my [TS]

  personal estimation my favorite iphone [TS]

  ever i just think it looks amazing and i [TS]

  love it to death and then for some [TS]

  reason or another all i'll grab Jamie's [TS]

  phone and then I wish so badly that it [TS]

  was even a half as tacky as sticky as [TS]

  cheese filling because man that jet [TS]

  black is so nice to hold I I i still [TS]

  prefer the aesthetics of the mat but [TS]

  gosh that jet black is so nice to hold [TS]

  have you considered pine tar MIT the [TS]

  pics right I'll tell you what you like [TS]

  so you know now that another world few [TS]

  weeks and like my jet black one you have [TS]

  any time to look at the back [TS]

  0i look this morning just like it was [TS]

  like it was upside down on the bed i was [TS]

  doing was getting dressed and i know [TS]

  some like you know how does how does the [TS]

  back look now after a few weeks of views [TS]

  and I look and it's like there's like [TS]

  three fingerprints on it but it's not [TS]

  that bad and like I had and I hadn't [TS]

  just been offering this is like like [TS]

  organic discovery of the back of this [TS]

  phone in the wild and like there was [TS]

  there a few fingerprints on it and it's [TS]

  fine and there's a few small scratches [TS]

  that you can see in certain light and [TS]

  they're fine too [TS]

  it doesn't matter at all but every [TS]

  single time I pick it up and hold it [TS]

  which is constantly during the day I am [TS]

  so glad it feels good as it does yeah [TS]

  yeah I can understand that I don't know [TS]

  it's it's a tough call I think to be [TS]

  honest [TS]

  jet black or or matte black it's kind of [TS]

  a win-win [TS]

  you mean because i think the jet-black [TS]

  absolutely wins on uncomfort I think the [TS]

  matte black wins on aesthetics [TS]

  personally although it's a close call [TS]

  so it's a win win no matter how you [TS]

  slice it yeah i agree with that before [TS]

  we move on from the material that your [TS]

  phone is made of assuming the glass [TS]

  rumors are true and they do the glass [TS]

  thing what do you guys think is the most [TS]

  likely successor material to aluminum [TS]

  and glass kali like after that [TS]

  yeah i got there after whatever this [TS]

  next one is however long like the glass [TS]

  error last assuming the rumors true like [TS]

  it was because i have to think that [TS]

  apple continues to look for the next [TS]

  material and they will find it [TS]

  eventually it's not going to be aluminum [TS]

  and glass forever and ever [TS]

  I don't think we can say for sure i'm [TS]

  gonna times you but I don't think we can [TS]

  say for sure that they necessarily have [TS]

  to replace aluminum I mean there are [TS]

  certain things in the world that just [TS]

  ended up being made of certain materials [TS]

  for a very very long time because that [TS]

  makes sense for physical physical [TS]

  characteristics or for manufacturing [TS]

  ease or four cost or availability or [TS]

  scale or whatever else but there are [TS]

  certain things that always into being [TS]

  made of that material like airplanes are [TS]

  made of aluminum because there's lots of [TS]

  reasons for that and like that's like [TS]

  there's nothing saying that they're [TS]

  gonna be good replacement for airplanes [TS]

  unless there is pleased airplane Eric [TS]

  don't tell me I just let me believe one [TS]

  thing but there is like a very rare [TS]

  plant example is a good one because for [TS]

  a long time out brains were made of [TS]

  metal until people started working [TS]

  carbon fiber into airplanes into actual [TS]

  airplanes that you know like a sold-out [TS]

  it's not like they're all made of carbon [TS]

  fiber now but that became a viable [TS]

  material for important parts of [TS]

  airplanes whereas it you know in the [TS]

  beginning of our parents lives that [TS]

  atmosphere than existing wasn't using [TS]

  airplanes at all and aviation is really [TS]

  slow to adopt new materials but slowly [TS]

  but surely basically over the course of [TS]

  our entire life suddenly carbon fiber is [TS]

  part of the formula of making a plane I [TS]

  think phones or less conservative in [TS]

  airplanes and especially since you know [TS]

  airplanes have the constraint that they [TS]

  have to like transport something [TS]

  otherwise why they even exist whether [TS]

  it's people are cargo right but phones [TS]

  that the form factor of a phone i mean [TS]

  in some respects until it is sending [TS]

  images you know into it directly into [TS]

  our brain has to have something that we [TS]

  can look at you know assuming we don't [TS]

  go to classes or something but [TS]

  everything else about it it's kind of up [TS]

  for grabs like aluminum it you know if [TS]

  if the electronics for a phone fit into [TS]

  something the thickness of a credit card [TS]

  aluminum is not the material for you [TS]

  because once you have to think of a [TS]

  credit card [TS]

  you can't make that out of aluminum [TS]

  anymore because it will Bend and stay [TS]

  bet and so it's a non-starter period you [TS]

  cannot do it out of a woman right so [TS]

  if we get to that in our lifetime which [TS]

  i think is reasonable will be old men [TS]

  but you can keep making these things [TS]

  that are in smaller than our in smaller [TS]

  and lighter weight and new screen [TS]

  technology and so on and so forth we can [TS]

  get pretty thin and once they get to a [TS]

  certain thickness you can't use aluminum [TS]

  anymore so I and then you probably don't [TS]

  want to use glass because it's just too [TS]

  fragile so you have to go to a material [TS]

  that's been denounced back and you [TS]

  probably want to also go to something [TS]

  that's lighter so I don't you know he [TS]

  you but it's reasonable to say though [TS]

  you could say in the next 20 years it's [TS]

  a little glass that's it or just glass [TS]

  and whatever a sandwich between it is [TS]

  that what you're saying you can envision [TS]

  anything in the next like 20 years or so [TS]

  that's not aluminum glass or some [TS]

  combination i mean i don't really know [TS]

  enough about materials and the science [TS]

  behind them and then the status of [TS]

  current technologies like carbon fiber [TS]

  is a great example we know that might be [TS]

  it i don't know I I no carbon fiber is [TS]

  right now it's it's not used in mass [TS]

  quantities and a lot of places because [TS]

  of various like newness and cost issues [TS]

  and things like that but I don't know [TS]

  about to know whether that's likely to [TS]

  be overcome and in the next few years I [TS]

  really don't know [TS]

  carbon fiber I think would have many of [TS]

  the same advantages of ceramic in that [TS]

  way i assume its radio transparent i [TS]

  assume it can be very thin and light and [TS]

  strong based on the little I know about [TS]

  it so it seems like it could be really [TS]

  cool but I don't know if they can make [TS]

  enough of it i mean if you think about [TS]

  like where you might see it first [TS]

  certainly the iphone is a very high [TS]

  profit very high-profile prestigious [TS]

  device but it wouldn't surprise me if [TS]

  you saw carbon fiber first appearance [TS]

  something lower volume that could maybe [TS]

  sell for even more maybe a macbook pro [TS]

  you know maybe you see a macbook pro you [TS]

  know lid casing or bottom casing or [TS]

  maybe even the entire case made of [TS]

  carbon fiber I have no idea but that [TS]

  would be a place where like you could [TS]

  actually really use more of a weight [TS]

  savings and you could charge more and [TS]

  have more of a profit margin to kind of [TS]

  cover the cost of it and you would need [TS]

  to make as many of them as you would [TS]

  make with the iphone so I I think [TS]

  they're going to use something like [TS]

  carbon fiber probably gonna see it first [TS]

  somewhere else not then the phone but I [TS]

  really have no idea [TS]

  now [TS]

  I was going to say carbon fiber as well [TS]

  but I i'm not i am not confident in that [TS]

  idea because I thought that carbon fiber [TS]

  is just a nightmare to work with and [TS]

  doesn't like splinter really badly if [TS]

  you kinda or maybe I guess that's [TS]

  fiberglass which I'm not recommending [TS]

  I'm just saying I just thought it was a [TS]

  nightmare to work with [TS]

  I think carbon fiber does shatter the [TS]

  lights and that one of the problems at [TS]

  home maybe that's it [TS]

  yeah did I mean it's an interesting [TS]

  thought exercise for sure but i think [TS]

  this is 3 blind men leading themselves [TS]

  around in a circle [TS]

  you know I I don't that like Marcus I [TS]

  don't know anything about materials [TS]

  really so i'm not sure what's even [TS]

  reasonable what would you say John I [TS]

  basically agree with all the things that [TS]

  you touched on like everything exact [TS]

  same thing is Margo in terms of like [TS]

  that this was getting up with the credit [TS]

  card type thing aluminum is great right [TS]

  up to the point where you start reaching [TS]

  a certain minimum thickness and then you [TS]

  have the bending problem right because [TS]

  aluminum is not all about springing back [TS]

  and it its we have a good analogy in the [TS]

  car industry where for many many years [TS]

  cars were made of steel and then more [TS]

  exotic cars incorporated aluminum parts [TS]

  but you're weird and harder to [TS]

  manufacture don't remember when we were [TS]

  kids like I already had a little cars [TS]

  and was like oh but those are a [TS]

  nightmare to do bodywork on because [TS]

  everyone knows how to do steel and [TS]

  aluminum is harder to work with all [TS]

  sorts of reasons that like making you [TS]

  know mechanics and body repair people [TS]

  will tell you that aluminum cars are [TS]

  paying the but fast forward to today [TS]

  aluminum is everywhere it is trickling [TS]

  down the carline it's not just on exotic [TS]

  supercars anymore [TS]

  what's on exotic supercars these days [TS]

  ago super-hard is essentially entirely [TS]

  made out of carbon fiber like that the [TS]

  Koenigsegg one has carbon rubber wheels [TS]

  for crying out loud like and it's okay [TS]

  let's find for carbon fiber for exotic [TS]

  cars but carbon fiber just like aluminum [TS]

  before I feel like will be trickling [TS]

  down and like seven on cars very often [TS]

  especially a very expensive fancy cars [TS]

  it'll be aluminum and steel but on the [TS]

  lightweight model they will replace [TS]

  certain parts with carbon fiber very [TS]

  often the roof the hood things that are [TS]

  thin not really load-bearing but very [TS]

  large like marketing with the back of [TS]

  macro and I mean cars you're not [TS]

  supposed to touch anything so they [TS]

  should be bending but macbooks if they [TS]

  make them really thin like think of the [TS]

  current mac [TS]

  that's starting to push the limits of [TS]

  been doing this if you want to go much [TS]

  thinner and you probably will be able to [TS]

  considering like that the iphone is [TS]

  probably faster than the current macbook [TS]

  and the iphone is a really small that a [TS]

  10 is really small [TS]

  if you want to go much thinner and you [TS]

  want to make a more lightweight version [TS]

  of that that's more resilient making the [TS]

  top case of a macbook pro active carbon [TS]

  fiber starts to make sense and because [TS]

  carbon fiber i think is inevitably going [TS]

  to trickle down the automotive ladder in [TS]

  our lifetime [TS]

  it's just the way the industry goes [TS]

  there will be an ever-increasing [TS]

  expertise in dealing with and [TS]

  manufacturing carbon fiber so that's [TS]

  that's my number one pick for the [TS]

  successor because things will get [TS]

  thinner it has the advantage of radio [TS]

  transparency is really light is really [TS]

  strong the difficulty is that you can't [TS]

  like machine fine details into it it's [TS]

  more of a pain to deal with like hoping [TS]

  that the rest of the manufacturing [TS]

  industries starting with aviation [TS]

  supercars and coming down to regular [TS]

  cars or ever will will start to work out [TS]

  the details of a carbon fiber [TS]

  manufacturing process that makes it [TS]

  viable in a way that it is not now that [TS]

  makes it viable for manufacturing phones [TS]

  all the charms carbon fiber is not ready [TS]

  transparent so I don't know that's good [TS]

  that maybe another thing that they can [TS]

  tackle they could always just have [TS]

  antennae lines smoothly etched into the [TS]

  carbon fiber like they do with the [TS]

  aluminum today anyway there we go [TS]

  ceramic antenna lines that a [TS]

  carbon-fiber plate [TS]

  ya know ya know sometimes erratic is [TS]

  ceramic the reason we're even talking [TS]

  about that is because apple introduced [TS]

  this really shiny phone the scratches [TS]

  really easily i'm like oh well it would [TS]

  be nice if it could be smooth but also [TS]

  not scratchy and then that's how we get [TS]

  the whole carbon fiber thing o carbon [TS]

  fiber shatters and chips and so on and [TS]

  so forth all these all these different [TS]

  properties i feel like within the realm [TS]

  of metals and ceramics and even plastic [TS]

  that's my second pic by the way carbon [TS]

  fiber is my exciting pick my boring pic [TS]

  is as you get really really thin you [TS]

  know what for something the size of a [TS]

  phone not necessarily the size of a [TS]

  laptop or something the size of a phone [TS]

  maybe not the big phone plastic that has [TS]

  a lot has a lot of desirable qualities [TS]

  plastic we know all that plastic it [TS]

  scratches more easily than the hard [TS]

  metals it will shatter eventually but it [TS]

  bends in springs back and can take a [TS]

  beating [TS]

  and you still got the problem of the [TS]

  screen floating out there we haven't [TS]

  even talked about mostly just talked [TS]

  about the back of the thing i don't see [TS]

  any anything other than glass for the [TS]

  front of the thing until the whole thing [TS]

  is Benny piece of plastic and then you [TS]

  can have it be glass at all because the [TS]

  whole thing is like a row you can roll [TS]

  it up or whatever and you can't make [TS]

  that out of class and then we just have [TS]

  to accept that it's plastic and they're [TS]

  so cheap that if you get scratched up [TS]

  you just go to the apple store and they [TS]

  give you a new one for 50 bucks or [TS]

  something but will be dead then so don't [TS]

  worry about it responds this week by [TS]

  betterment investing made better go to [TS]

  better / ATP to learn more [TS]

  betterment has changed the investing [TS]

  industry by making investing easier and [TS]

  a lower cost than traditional financial [TS]

  services better manage your investments [TS]

  at the same strategy the financial [TS]

  advisors use with clients who have [TS]

  millions of dollars and now to bring [TS]

  that to you you might be hearing [TS]

  betterment in the press such as the wall [TS]

  street journal Bloomberg and techcrunch [TS]

  have covered them recently betterment is [TS]

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  put to work in your portfolio is [TS]

  automatically rebalanced as needed [TS]

  investing involves risk right now you [TS]

  can get to six months of no fees to [TS]

  learn more visit betterment calm / ATP [TS]

  that's a better / ATP [TS]

  betterment investing made better [TS]

  there's been a brouhaha there's been a [TS]

  kerfuffle there's been i'm out of [TS]

  adjectives so there's been a thing and [TS]

  apple and an independent developer are [TS]

  kind-of sort-of duking it out and that's [TS]

  not usually happy for anyone involved [TS]

  and particularly for those watching from [TS]

  the sidelines because oftentimes this [TS]

  has pretty big implications on on your [TS]

  own business so i'm trying to think that [TS]

  there's so many angles to this story and [TS]

  i'm i'm trying to figure out the best [TS]

  way to summarize and we'll put links in [TS]

  the show notes to MJ sighs summary post [TS]

  there's two of them and they're really [TS]

  good [TS]

  Michael sighs but the super super quick [TS]

  version and then we'll add details in a [TS]

  moment is that this gentleman bog dan [TS]

  and I don't have a blessing funny but [TS]

  anyway uh pesco he had released many [TS]

  apps may be but certainly in disputed [TS]

  Lee was the author of an app called dash [TS]

  which I actually haven't used which is [TS]

  probably criminal because from [TS]

  everything mr. now its from everything [TS]

  i've ever heard it is phenomenal and I [TS]

  don't say that sarcastically but to use [TS]

  the built-in exco documentation like an [TS]

  animal [TS]

  no safari usually because I don't trust [TS]

  the built-in stuff search abilities but [TS]

  anyway I identical sucks but yeah so I i [TS]

  will be the first to admit I'm missing [TS]

  out on this and in again I'm not trying [TS]

  to be sarcastic genuinely from [TS]

  everything i've ever heard from anyone [TS]

  who has ever touched dash it is [TS]

  phenomenal [TS]

  well all of a sudden his developer [TS]

  account got shut down [TS]

  maybe that's a little bit up for debate [TS]

  but all of a sudden get shut down he [TS]

  kind of tries to talk to apple doesn't [TS]

  get a lot of information out of them [TS]

  eventually starts posting about it's now [TS]

  at people other independent developers [TS]

  like Marco for example starting to say [TS]

  hey this doesn't feel right what's going [TS]

  on here [TS]

  eventually he gets in contact with Apple [TS]

  things seem to be making forward [TS]

  progress then Apple goes to the press [TS]

  and says well he's getting booted from [TS]

  the app store because he's done some [TS]

  really nice various stuff [TS]

  meanwhile bogdan is thinking well I [TS]

  thought we were still in the midst of a [TS]

  dialogue what's going on here so then he [TS]

  escalates [TS]

  writes his own post again links will be [TS]

  in the show notes I've writes his own [TS]

  post that includes among other things a [TS]

  roughly 10 minute phone call recording [TS]

  of a 10-minute phone call between him [TS]

  and an apple representative which i'm [TS]

  not sure that was the most morally sound [TS]

  choice but i can understand why I did it [TS]

  and then since all this happened the [TS]

  armchair archaeologists have been [TS]

  digging into what's going on and whether [TS]

  or not things are awry because it seems [TS]

  to be that the disconnect is there were [TS]

  two accounts that were linked in some [TS]

  way shape or form the the method of that [TS]

  Lincoln how end and how tenuous that [TS]

  link was is up for debate but it seems [TS]

  clear that there's absolutely a link [TS]

  between two different developer accounts [TS]

  and one of the accounts it seems like [TS]

  everyone involved isn't debating that it [TS]

  was involved in some kind of shady [TS]

  practices trying to buy good reviews for [TS]

  their own apps trying to put bad reviews [TS]

  for competitors apps and just generally [TS]

  being shady now bogdan's perspective is [TS]

  hey I open that account for a relative [TS]

  of mine i did it using my credit card [TS]

  because in other countries having a [TS]

  credit card isn't necessarily a given [TS]

  like it's sort of is in America and [TS]

  after that I walked away [TS]

  they're the ones that are doing all this [TS]

  nefarious terrible things i'm not i'm [TS]

  getting i'm just collateral damage here [TS]

  and that's not fair [TS]

  so there was some back and forth like I [TS]

  said between Apple and he Apple [TS]

  apparently wanted him to write a blog [TS]

  post saying basically hey apple just got [TS]

  confused but we've straightened it out [TS]

  it's all good now and then he allegedly [TS]

  would have been allowed to get back in [TS]

  the app store this is before he [TS]

  escalated with the phone call and I [TS]

  believe before Apple escalated by going [TS]

  to the press [TS]

  so there's a lot of other avenues here [TS]

  the armchair archaeologists seem to have [TS]

  found a lot of different ways that point [TS]

  to all the shady apps actually having [TS]

  been him as well and not some other [TS]

  relative and we can go into that if need [TS]

  be but this is one of those that you [TS]

  nations where everyone seems wrong [TS]

  everyone seems right and nobody's clear [TS]

  what what the real story is which makes [TS]

  it very interesting and many people [TS]

  joked that maybe cereal season 3 will be [TS]

  of help that but but but it's hard to [TS]

  make heads or tails of it and and i'm [TS]

  not sure if i had to choose sides who I [TS]

  side with and I think the reality of the [TS]

  situation is i kinda side with both [TS]

  inside with neither all at once which i [TS]

  know is kind of a cop-out but that's [TS]

  really how I feel so let's start by [TS]

  asking before we get into our opinions [TS]

  about this is that a relatively ok [TS]

  summary did I miss any really important [TS]

  points [TS]

  I think you got it i mean i think your [TS]

  characterization of what Apple wanted [TS]

  him to do in that blog post is is not [TS]

  quite there but close enough [TS]

  alright John any other thoughts going to [TS]

  say that uh some of the it's it's not [TS]

  clear [TS]

  uh we have the rough timeline of events [TS]

  from the outside but because Apple is so [TS]

  tight-lipped about everything I i still [TS]

  feel like we don't really have their [TS]

  side of the story they're never going to [TS]

  give it to us right so we it's kind of [TS]

  like we have the black hole that is [TS]

  apple and then we have a leak of their [TS]

  private communications with this [TS]

  recording and then we have the [TS]

  discussion for the developer but apples [TS]

  never apples not going to for instance [TS]

  like it would you characterize your like [TS]

  oh then Apple went to the press with [TS]

  this thing that said this thing like we [TS]

  have no idea if that statement was [TS]

  written and distributed through the [TS]

  bureaucracy before that call even took [TS]

  place and apples not going to clarify [TS]

  they're not going to go by the way you [TS]

  may think you've heard this but really [TS]

  actually this is that when I can't tell [TS]

  if it's like not our business what goes [TS]

  on inside their company and also i feel [TS]

  like the the communication I the public [TS]

  communications all the different sites [TS]

  if you look at it [TS]

  my recollection is that basically it [TS]

  doesn't tell you the details to let you [TS]

  know all the nuances that the developers [TS]

  blog post went into but it also doesn't [TS]

  say anything that is false from the [TS]

  perspective of apple with their [TS]

  terminology which will be sure we'll get [TS]

  into later like from Apple's perspective [TS]

  this is the real system this is these [TS]

  are the set of rules they matched on [TS]

  this particular set of behavior they [TS]

  took this action [TS]

  and that's what they're distributing an [TS]

  apple is basically putting that out in [TS]

  response to the original careful about [TS]

  10 developers getting squished again and [TS]

  so I would say that like it's difficult [TS]

  to know is a difficult to know Apple [TS]

  side of the story like we get the [TS]

  developer side is a developer not only [TS]

  is free to say whatever he wants to the [TS]

  public but seems very willing to say and [TS]

  do whatever feels like the public which [TS]

  is fine but Apple is totally unwilling [TS]

  to do that so I still feel like we are [TS]

  all at a disadvantage on the outside in [TS]

  terms of knowing what the real deal is [TS]

  yeah i mean i-i think trying to figure [TS]

  out all the details of what happened is [TS]

  not productive for any of us possibly [TS]

  even them because you know we weren't [TS]

  there [TS]

  these are private communications for the [TS]

  most part we have seen very little of [TS]

  them we don't really know this developer [TS]

  well you know we use app but you know [TS]

  none of us know him to know like for [TS]

  sure you know how complete he's probably [TS]

  being who knows you know it and we also [TS]

  don't know if Apple's being complete and [TS]

  truthful in their statements we have no [TS]

  way to evaluate these these really you [TS]

  know so all we can really do is is try [TS]

  to judge this or first week we can just [TS]

  ignore it which is one valid option I i [TS]

  think are the the communities initial [TS]

  reaction of hey this looks like a [TS]

  mistake because this app you know before [TS]

  we knew about the second account with [TS]

  all the other crazy apps like this app [TS]

  is really good and has lots of [TS]

  legitimate five star reviews what need [TS]

  would this person have to buy fake [TS]

  reviews or to get suspended like it [TS]

  seemed ridiculous and so we were all [TS]

  yelling last week on Twitter [TS]

  hey this doesn't look right can somebody [TS]

  apple-like look into this again or [TS]

  explain this like that was the main just [TS]

  everyone's demand last week when it blew [TS]

  up [TS]

  well the the reason he was talking about [TS]

  it all is because he made an initial [TS]

  blog post read you might be wondering [TS]

  what happened to the dash [TS]

  here's the deal I'm not sure what's [TS]

  going on but they said my account is [TS]

  pulled and it's and I can appeal the [TS]

  process like so that's how that's why we [TS]

  knew about it at all because he went to [TS]

  the public and said to explain why his [TS]

  apps are certainly not available because [TS]

  people use apples popular and that's it [TS]

  I think the main thing I think we can [TS]

  take away from this entire thing is how [TS]

  the apple developer community [TS]

  reacts to it like because reaction [TS]

  doesn't happen in a vacuum so the [TS]

  context of all the past history so when [TS]

  we all collectively saw this story from [TS]

  a developer and there was any other [TS]

  reason we saw because we all do you know [TS]

  where in the traveling developer circles [TS]

  online and developer blogs and you know [TS]

  anyway when we saw that because of the [TS]

  past history of App Store rule [TS]

  enforcement and policies that you know [TS]

  that don't seem right to developers but [TS]

  you know the history of conflict the [TS]

  history of arbitrary decisions that [TS]

  don't make any sense or that our [TS]

  community of developers in ways that [TS]

  shouldn't be or you know honest mistakes [TS]

  or whatever that context is why we have [TS]

  this reaction because it's not this this [TS]

  event is not a thing this event just [TS]

  highlights hey how does the apple [TS]

  developer community feel about Apple and [TS]

  the app store at this moment in time are [TS]

  they inherently suspicious [TS]

  do they give Apple the benefit of the [TS]

  doubt that they give developers but i [TS]

  like it so clearly showed that the [TS]

  current context despite positive changes [TS]

  is that we will all readily believe that [TS]

  the giant faceless bureaucracy that is [TS]

  the apple app store i can and does do [TS]

  things that are you know it [TS]

  best-case mistakes or worst case like [TS]

  just wrongheaded decisions right so [TS]

  that's that I feel like was at it you [TS]

  know part of a tumor marker right is [TS]

  that like this is a good app and we kind [TS]

  of like you know do virtual transfer [TS]

  like application good [TS]

  therefore developer good which is not [TS]

  valid transfer but you're like it just [TS]

  didn't seem like if you've got a quality [TS]

  of the people like that that you're [TS]

  known for what reason do you have like [TS]

  she'd interviews or anything before we [TS]

  do that but like it just seemed like all [TS]

  right and and but I really think the [TS]

  most important thing is that the tablet [TS]

  takeaway from this is that people's [TS]

  developers still don't trust that we are [TS]

  going to do the right thing and that [TS]

  when they see anything that even looks [TS]

  like one of those past situations where [TS]

  we've been in the wrong or done [TS]

  something that was not productive [TS]

  they will immediately believe it so that [TS]

  you know they'll know they have made [TS]

  progress when a similar event happens [TS]

  and the reaction from the developer [TS]

  community is not immediate suspicion [TS]

  that Apple has screwed a small developer [TS]

  again [TS]

  yeah and and i think at you know an [TS]

  apples-to-apples credit though this [TS]

  ability to totally terminate somebody's [TS]

  developer account is probably used [TS]

  everyday for lots of different [TS]

  fraudulent accounts that are trying [TS]

  their you know conducting fraud or spam [TS]

  or scams or something that they probably [TS]

  turn it turn a developer account every [TS]

  day and I can't think I mean maybe I'm [TS]

  wrong please let me know if i'm wrong i [TS]

  can't remember a single previous [TS]

  instance in the eight years of the app [TS]

  store where it seemed like someone's [TS]

  developer account was terminated wrongly [TS]

  has that ever happened that we that we [TS]

  learned about well I mean the equivalent [TS]

  is like we're rejecting your update even [TS]

  though you've gotta crash here for some [TS]

  unknown reason the other didn't [TS]

  terminate your developer account but but [TS]

  effectively effectively it's the same [TS]

  thing and noe i mean this is more severe [TS]

  and this is what this is much more [TS]

  severe it is but like see the reason the [TS]

  reason I think you don't see people [TS]

  complain about termination is because I [TS]

  I think you're right the termination [TS]

  happens all the time but it happens to [TS]

  known bad actors and it's part of the [TS]

  cost of doing business in on bad actress [TS]

  bad actors get their countermand all [TS]

  time there's open a new one like that's [TS]

  their business is open up a new account [TS]

  do something against the rules if as [TS]

  long as you can when your account gets [TS]

  closed open up another one like that's [TS]

  that's their entire mo like that their [TS]

  life's the life cycle of the fraudster [TS]

  coming up star is right and so of course [TS]

  they're not going to complain about it [TS]

  why would think that's just like how the [TS]

  system works from their perspective so I [TS]

  think this is just a you know that all [TS]

  the the legitimate developers have the [TS]

  review problems or whatever they'll get [TS]

  shut down this looks like a cross over [TS]

  those two worlds the rolled over there [TS]

  were no one ever complains but everyone [TS]

  knows you're going to shut down like a [TS]

  week or two but sometimes it's slow bad [TS]

  you can make a lot of money in the [TS]

  meantime and then this world over here [TS]

  where it's like historically sometimes [TS]

  apple rejected legitimate application [TS]

  and be frustrating or whatever but [TS]

  eventually you'll get through it except [TS]

  for the people who are like you know [TS]

  after this type are no longer allowed [TS]

  period they just have to stop [TS]

  development that's also very similar in [TS]

  terms like oh we don't want to make [TS]

  launch wraps for a couple years or but I [TS]

  don't know that's a good example that [TS]

  that where Apple categorically decides [TS]

  that this type of application is allowed [TS]

  anymore even though we have previously [TS]

  allowed it but this is like crossing [TS]

  over of and because and it's not that [TS]

  much of a crossover because there is [TS]

  like you said everyone agrees there's [TS]

  some kind of fraudulent activity on [TS]

  account [TS]

  where the argument is whether that [TS]

  fraudulent activity should meet this [TS]

  other account gets closed right so this [TS]

  is the meeting of those worlds [TS]

  the only question is is that meeting you [TS]

  know is it legitimate to do collective [TS]

  punishment because the accounts use the [TS]

  same test devices in the same credit [TS]

  card number which from a perspective is [TS]

  the only way they have to tell they [TS]

  can't see what's inside the computer [TS]

  right so that you can get that all they [TS]

  have this data and their data says same [TS]

  test devices same credit card number [TS]

  same legal entity and you know from a [TS]

  legal perspective like not from a [TS]

  practical perspective from a legal [TS]

  perspective like that's how the Apple ID [TS]

  system works that's how developer thing [TS]

  works there they want information about [TS]

  you to connect to it is essentially to [TS]

  connect to entity that they can sue or [TS]

  that is legally represented writing so [TS]

  if you if you use all the same [TS]

  information they used to establish what [TS]

  the entity is for multiple accounts it's [TS]

  all the same entity like that's the [TS]

  whole point of you doing this like Marco [TS]

  has multiple attention multiple things [TS]

  for your various yeah like right and but [TS]

  that's like it if they were all come you [TS]

  know separate or combined like that's [TS]

  how things work in the business world we [TS]

  don't care what physical person is [TS]

  sitting for another thing they just care [TS]

  what the legal entity is and where the [TS]

  liability lives right now the more human [TS]

  side of it is what if you do live in a [TS]

  country where it's not easy credit cards [TS]

  and you do a favor for somebody and you [TS]

  you're not a lawyer and not thinking [TS]

  about the fact that now you essentially [TS]

  are legally vouching for the activities [TS]

  of this other account right i think [TS]

  apple would be entirely in the right [TS]

  then probably totally in there legally [TS]

  somewhere that says hey if you use all [TS]

  the same legal and contact information [TS]

  from multiple accounts you are legally [TS]

  responsible like you know that's you [TS]

  essentially absorb the liability for the [TS]

  other person is if you started a company [TS]

  and then you know your friend came in [TS]

  and wrote all the code but then you [TS]

  published it as the legal entity you're [TS]

  legally responsible your friends like [TS]

  all I didn't write all the code he did [TS]

  like doesn't matter that's not how the [TS]

  law works right for the most part of my [TS]

  wire that and so in this situation Apple [TS]

  probably could have just said these are [TS]

  the rules [TS]

  this is the data is irrefutable you [TS]

  don't argue it [TS]

  you know we all agree on the facts here [TS]

  and so therefore your account is closed [TS]

  but it's not what Apple did what Apple [TS]

  did instead is tried to communicate with [TS]

  this developer to work things out [TS]

  because there and that is the next [TS]

  question [TS]

  alright so the app works with developers [TS]

  I work things out [TS]

  does do all of us here in the peanut [TS]

  gallery and apple developer community do [TS]

  we immediately suspect that the only [TS]

  reason they were working out is because [TS]

  this person made a blog post that this [TS]

  happened beforehand so here's well [TS]

  here's what happened and this is I i [TS]

  think if i can look at this whole [TS]

  situation if I can point to 22 things [TS]

  that i would say we're like bad moves i [TS]

  think one it was apple bad move and one [TS]

  was the developers bad move the apples [TS]

  bad move was when they first started [TS]

  detecting all of this fraud on the other [TS]

  account they did consider the fraud [TS]

  account and the dash account to be [TS]

  logically link because they both were [TS]

  made by the same credit card and they [TS]

  both they both use some of the same test [TS]

  devices so they considered that enough [TS]

  of a correlation to consider them [TS]

  logically linked and and I think that [TS]

  that alone right there considering [TS]

  account an account logically link for [TS]

  the purpose of fraud detection based on [TS]

  the same credit card being used and the [TS]

  same device being used i think that's a [TS]

  reasonable assumption i think Apple was [TS]

  totally fine to do that the error that [TS]

  Apple made that i would say was probably [TS]

  the the one big big mistake that is [TS]

  apple's fault in the way this was [TS]

  handled is that when Apple detected the [TS]

  fraud on the other account they only [TS]

  contacted that account email address to [TS]

  talk about and try to fix the fraud [TS]

  issue and only they said when they were [TS]

  like issuing the warnings basically the [TS]

  only contacted the fraud one not the [TS]

  other one that was logically link to it [TS]

  but why do you think that's a mistake [TS]

  like you think it's a mistake because it [TS]

  seems like unfair or whatever but I [TS]

  think like from you know policy-wise i [TS]

  think it is a reasonable policy to have [TS]

  that you know the the like who was [TS]

  responsible for the actions of the [TS]

  account well the responsibility of [TS]

  accidents account ties back to whatever [TS]

  legal entity you know as we define it as [TS]

  the information you enter when you make [TS]

  your Apple ID right if that's their [TS]

  policy and then they see fraudulent [TS]

  activity and then they also policy that [TS]

  says that this fraudulent Act [TS]

  any uh all of the accounts that are tied [TS]

  to that same legal entity gets shut down [TS]

  i don't see anywhere where there's any [TS]

  specific need to carefully communicate [TS]

  with each one of them to give each one [TS]

  of the the connected legal entities a [TS]

  chance to explain or something that is a [TS]

  nice thing to do and we all think they [TS]

  should do it in this case but [TS]

  policy-wise like you know as many people [TS]

  pointed out if you get shut down my like [TS]

  people paypal or ebay or anything like [TS]

  that like no one's going to give you a [TS]

  nice phone call ask you to like explain [TS]

  yourself to them or whatever to make [TS]

  sure everyone gets a separate [TS]

  communication in case they're separate [TS]

  people and so like it's it's asking [TS]

  Apple to foresee the situation as [TS]

  described by the developer that actually [TS]

  was two different people and we were [TS]

  sharing credit card and I had no idea [TS]

  what was going on this count for years [TS]

  and so on and so forth are like I think [TS]

  it is a reasonable policy for a business [TS]

  to say this is just how the rules work [TS]

  if you don't like it you you developer [TS]

  have made a mistake by legally vouching [TS]

  for a someone again you have no idea [TS]

  what they're doing their they're [TS]

  committing fraud over years you have no [TS]

  idea about it that's your bad that's not [TS]

  our bed we can just shut them all down [TS]

  right now and i was getting back to what [TS]

  we thought about this when we heard [TS]

  about it is like why why is someone on [TS]

  the phone because we heard the phone [TS]

  call that you know that he put my why [TS]

  someone on the phone trying to work it [TS]

  out with this person is it because [TS]

  mostly because you know it like do we [TS]

  think it's because this is a popular [TS]

  developer and it's a developer was [TS]

  popular with other developers because [TS]

  they make a developer tool right [TS]

  is that why someone from apple is [TS]

  bending over backwards because you know [TS]

  what makes this one different verses if [TS]

  this had just been one of those you know [TS]

  fraud developers who got their account [TS]

  close to everything apple and all those [TS]

  cases for fraud is on the phone with [TS]

  each one of them saying oh let me hear [TS]

  what you say about all will try to get [TS]

  your account back I don't think that's [TS]

  happening and the reason we think that [TS]

  is part of the anger of like the old app [TS]

  review guidelines that were like never [TS]

  run to the press that doesn't help you [TS]

  know remember that old one that I think [TS]

  they removed and yeah it's gone [TS]

  the guidelines that was Steve Jobs style [TS]

  snarky we don't like it when you [TS]

  badmouth us in public type of thing [TS]

  that's where the root of all this is [TS]

  coming from the risk of like when we see [TS]

  this at least me specifically when i see [TS]

  this i think apple is bending over [TS]

  backwards a because they're trying to be [TS]

  nice [TS]

  would be a little bit because this [TS]

  person made a blog post and presented [TS]

  their side of the story and apple feels [TS]

  like this is you know they don't like [TS]

  looking bad they don't look like they [TS]

  don't want to be the bad guy but in [TS]

  cases where they do something like close [TS]

  an account and they just never hear [TS]

  anything about it nobody blogs Apple you [TS]

  know feel okay about like I guess we [TS]

  weren't the bag i feel like the removing [TS]

  of don't run to the press is removed [TS]

  partly because it recognizes that like [TS]

  that's the only way Apple has to tell [TS]

  whether something they've done might've [TS]

  been inadvertently meaner than they [TS]

  would want to be right [TS]

  the only way they can tell is if there's [TS]

  public outcry you know because they're [TS]

  not they don't know every single [TS]

  developer whatever like he can't ask the [TS]

  entire infrastructure an apple to know [TS]

  every single happen to know what [TS]

  every single happen to know what [TS]

  dashes and how popular it is and this is [TS]

  a good person I can't do that forever is [TS]

  too much right and so I think this [TS]

  signal the public outcry and complaining [TS]

  on Twitter and other developers looking [TS]

  at a scan something maybe something [TS]

  reader is actually an important feature [TS]

  of the system as it currently exists [TS]

  quote-unquote working and I'm glad that [TS]

  guideline was removed by saying don't [TS]

  want to the press because i think it's [TS]

  essential part of the process at this [TS]

  point [TS]

  yeah unfortunately it is but anyway so [TS]

  so bad back to what happened here [TS]

  I honestly don't spend a whole lot of [TS]

  time on this because i think it's not [TS]

  very productive so I i think we can [TS]

  summarize basically you know I think [TS]

  Apple I disagree with you on on like on [TS]

  them notifying multiple accounts and I [TS]

  think if they're going to shut down an [TS]

  account which is a severe action they [TS]

  should notify it beforehand and so that [TS]

  after determination and the first round [TS]

  blog post somebody from Apple called the [TS]

  developer and developer recorded this [TS]

  which in California is illegal [TS]

  the developers in Romania where it's [TS]

  legal the gist of it was that the the [TS]

  apple guy was trying very hard to work [TS]

  this out you can tell that they wanted [TS]

  to work this out you know Apple want to [TS]

  make sure that that the correct story in [TS]

  their opinion was told they suggested [TS]

  maybe he could write a blog post and [TS]

  they they basically wanted two key facts [TS]

  to be in the blog post these accounts [TS]

  are linked so Apple was not mistaken to [TS]

  suspend it there was fraudulent account [TS]

  and he was working with Apple to unlink [TS]

  the accounts and get back on the app [TS]

  store and they went over this back and [TS]

  forth a few times and it sounded like [TS]

  the developer was not very happy about [TS]

  the the freezing of this about the part [TS]

  that Apple didn't make a mistake and [TS]

  then he says he submitted this this [TS]

  draft post which later poster's website [TS]

  he said he submitted that to them you [TS]

  could tell on the call though that again [TS]

  they were he was there was definitely [TS]

  friction he definitely did not seem [TS]

  happy about what he what he was being [TS]

  asked to to agree to and then a few days [TS]

  later Apple tells the press this was [TS]

  indeed justified there was lots of fun [TS]

  this account we tried to work it out [TS]

  with the developer but couldn't reach a [TS]

  resolution and that's it [TS]

  and so I think if you can if you kind of [TS]

  try to like connect the dots between [TS]

  those two [TS]

  things it seems like he had apple [TS]

  couldn't agree on what almost what he [TS]

  was going to how he was going to prevent [TS]

  these these facts of the case or how is [TS]

  going to work things it seems like Apple [TS]

  most likely got whatever he submitted to [TS]

  them decided this was not going to be [TS]

  resolvable or was not basically decided [TS]

  negotiations were over and this was not [TS]

  going to work out and then the statement [TS]

  to the press is basically they're [TS]

  shutting the door you know we're only [TS]

  hearing part of a phone call [TS]

  we're not hearing was before or after [TS]

  this part of the call were not part of [TS]

  we don't know anything communication [TS]

  happens separately from this call so [TS]

  things could have been more tense and [TS]

  hostile than what's shown here and [TS]

  what's shown there is slightly tense and [TS]

  hospital from the developer so I don't [TS]

  know if Apple was in the right or wrong [TS]

  to close the door on this when they did [TS]

  but that certainly seems like that is [TS]

  what happened and based on the the two [TS]

  conflicting attitudes in the phone call [TS]

  I think that's very likely the case that [TS]

  that you know they just decided this was [TS]

  not going to resolved that you know they [TS]

  were they were not gonna reach agreement [TS]

  and and they were gonna eat because from [TS]

  a point of view they want to make sure [TS]

  that they control the narrative here [TS]

  it's very it was very clear from from [TS]

  that recorder call from the apple rep on [TS]

  that call like Apple wanted to make very [TS]

  sure that everyone knew that they didn't [TS]

  just like slip-up and suspend an [TS]

  innocent account that there was fraud [TS]

  that was linked to this account and so [TS]

  they wanted to make very clear that was [TS]

  the story that got out that the facts [TS]

  are very clear [TS]

  Apple did not just mess up because that [TS]

  would be really bad if they just messed [TS]

  up and suspended an account that had no [TS]

  connection any problems whatsoever and [TS]

  like because that is a very severe [TS]

  action and clearly running the app store [TS]

  in eight years and this is the first [TS]

  time we're hearing of a bad developer [TS]

  account suspension clearly they do a [TS]

  pretty good job and they're pretty [TS]

  careful most of time with when taking [TS]

  that action so they clearly wanted to [TS]

  make sure that fact was out there that [TS]

  that there was indeed real fraud [TS]

  it was indeed linked to this account and [TS]

  that basically that they were going to [TS]

  unlink the accounts and not this [TS]

  development forward so I think they were [TS]

  actually being very reasonable there and [TS]

  through whatever reason whether it was [TS]

  education or attitudes or whatever it [TS]

  was they couldn't work it out and and [TS]

  that sux and there was a good post today [TS]

  on their neighbors here I think I'm or [TS]

  that was basically like how do we move [TS]

  forward from here and the gist of it was [TS]

  basically like look we all know the [TS]

  facts now like let's just like Apple [TS]

  should just reactivate hit you know the [TS]

  good account just reactivate that [TS]

  account like that's how we move forward [TS]

  is like everyone basically suck it up [TS]

  talking about just reactivate the [TS]

  account because that's best for [TS]

  everybody because like the other side of [TS]

  this is like you know this is a great [TS]

  app at a store for this reason that [TS]

  probably shouldn't have happened [TS]

  you know it or at least like like this [TS]

  app in this account probably didn't [TS]

  deserve it assuming the developer tell [TS]

  the truth in this was some relative and [TS]

  not just like him with a different [TS]

  account you know [TS]

  and secondly this really sucks for the [TS]

  customers of this app because if you [TS]

  bought this app like i did in the mac [TS]

  app store you can even redownloaded like [TS]

  when the developer account suspended the [TS]

  app is gone it doesn't show up in your [TS]

  purchases tab it doesn't show up in [TS]

  searches it is gone you can't redownload [TS]

  it and that sucks if you bought it so it [TS]

  does kind of suck the way the way things [TS]

  are left now even though I can look back [TS]

  at at what Apple did and I think Apple [TS]

  was in the right based on just the [TS]

  little bit that we can that we can know [TS]

  and and the little bits and pieces that [TS]

  you can pick up i think Apple did pretty [TS]

  much the right thing the whole way [TS]

  through here with the exception of like [TS]

  not only not notifying all the accounts [TS]

  for termination but besides that I think [TS]

  apples in the right and they seem to [TS]

  handle it very well and they seem to put [TS]

  in way more effort i mean like the kind [TS]

  of was saying that Phil Schiller was [TS]

  personally involved in trying to get [TS]

  this sub like and I believe that like [TS]

  knowing the way these things work i [TS]

  believe that and select the fact that [TS]

  you could have some Lakes like phil [TS]

  schiller trying to get this fixed and [TS]

  apple dividing this way that they can [TS]

  resolve this get back in the store and [TS]

  presenting it to the developer that that [TS]

  sounded very reasonable [TS]

  it really did seem like Apple was going [TS]

  above and beyond try to fix this and [TS]

  they really didn't need to this like [TS]

  it's nice that they did and i hope that [TS]

  if I ever on the wrong end of this I [TS]

  hope that I hope that the same thing for [TS]

  me but it's really really above and [TS]

  beyond they didn't have to do this they [TS]

  didn't have to get this guy away back in [TS]

  they didn't have to call him and and [TS]

  offer the this kind of you know this [TS]

  kind of like olive branch there look [TS]

  if we if you can just agree these few [TS]

  statements then we can get back in the [TS]

  day they didn't do any of that and they [TS]

  did it all they really obviously wanted [TS]

  to solve this in a in a decent way and [TS]

  again through whatever reason they could [TS]

  not reach agreement with the developer [TS]

  on something that I think honestly the [TS]

  developer made a huge mistake and the [TS]

  way that he handled that I think he [TS]

  should have just said they wanted to say [TS]

  because it wasn't it wasn't bad or [TS]

  incorrect so from outside of this again [TS]

  looking like when we all heard the story [TS]

  what do we all think of what does that [TS]

  say about how we view apple now sort of [TS]

  at the conclusion of this I i think [TS]

  apple kind of got a positive results [TS]

  here like because in the beginning were [TS]

  all I go apples doing something bad in [TS]

  the app store again and we've seen that [TS]

  story so many times and were immediately [TS]

  suspicious right by the end of it [TS]

  especially for any developer who is [TS]

  paying enough attention to like read all [TS]

  the details that we just discussed and [TS]

  read the blog post by the end of it I [TS]

  think most legitimate developers come [TS]

  away thinking if this happens to me it [TS]

  seems like Apple will give me a [TS]

  legitimate chance because I first of all [TS]

  I think most developers understand uh I [TS]

  that the developer made a mistake here [TS]

  like not a mistake like that essentially [TS]

  by by by tying himself legally to the [TS]

  other account he is he is essentially [TS]

  responsible for right and I'm hoping [TS]

  that most developers would understand [TS]

  that like that if you use your credit [TS]

  card number and your test device maybe [TS]

  that's not obvious to anybody but after [TS]

  the story i guess it is so maybe before [TS]

  the story you could say no but now [TS]

  understanding like you know you see that [TS]

  they were tied to that and you despite [TS]

  that Apple made an effort to to try to [TS]

  make things right and i think that whole [TS]

  thing is comforting to developers should [TS]

  feel like you know developer the gym [TS]

  developers who would never do anything [TS]

  wrong like that they're like if i find [TS]

  myself in a situation where I have you [TS]

  know unintentionally got myself in [TS]

  Tangled away their idea either i didn't [TS]

  understand or trusted somebody that [TS]

  you've never trusted but you know this [TS]

  happens to everybody right [TS]

  will I just be sol or will i be able to [TS]

  will Apple be reasonable with [TS]

  and the only with the exception of the [TS]

  fact that it's not clear that apple [TS]

  would have been engaged at all if he [TS]

  hadn't court run to the press which [TS]

  really just means put a post on his own [TS]

  personal blog and have a popular app [TS]

  like with the exception of that well I [TS]

  still think it's a concern like hey what [TS]

  about my scrap nobody loves my up like [TS]

  they love dash my post on my blog no one [TS]

  will even notice [TS]

  maybe i would still be sol right but [TS]

  with the exception of that caveat I [TS]

  think apples actions are essentially [TS]

  reassuring legitimate developers that [TS]

  apple will try to be reasonable [TS]

  yeah Marco says like if if the gold this [TS]

  developer was to be able to continue his [TS]

  business his business of selling [TS]

  software as popular application he made [TS]

  bad choices you can imagine you can [TS]

  decide do you do you want to be right [TS]

  and be like righteous and be like I [TS]

  refuse to admit to even any kind of [TS]

  wrongdoing or being linked or you know [TS]

  apples beyond for or do you just want [TS]

  your account back because they weren't [TS]

  asking him to say anything that's not [TS]

  true they weren't asking him to take [TS]

  blame for anything he doesn't blame for [TS]

  they were a hundred percent believing a [TS]

  story taking it at face value sign okay [TS]

  great you gave an account somebody else [TS]

  or whatever we're going to get your [TS]

  account back all you all we want you to [TS]

  do is to make it clear like Marco said [TS]

  that the facts of the situation where [TS]

  would they were there was a reason for [TS]

  Apple to do what it did and that [TS]

  everyone involved like not to make it [TS]

  seem like album made a terrible mistake [TS]

  but we all work it out and then have [TS]

  apple come out of there isn't much I can [TS]

  think is totally reasonable and he just [TS]

  he made bad choices of his goal was to [TS]

  get this business back he he could have [TS]

  gotten it back doing things that are [TS]

  reasonable telling the truth [TS]

  they're allowing him to write whatever [TS]

  he wanted as long as he hit those two [TS]

  key points which everybody involved in [TS]

  the conversation agree on and he didn't [TS]

  do it did not do it because he was just [TS]

  too proud or stubborn or thought it was [TS]

  he would end up you know coming out of [TS]

  it looking bad or whatever [TS]

  who knows but like if his goal was to [TS]

  get this business back he blew it but i [TS]

  still think like outside of this that [TS]

  most development maybe you know Marco [TS]

  can answer is obviously the only you [TS]

  know one with a application on the app [TS]

  store of any significance [TS]

  that's specifically tied to him and has [TS]

  a lot of experience do you feel [TS]

  reassured by the outcome of this that [TS]

  apple would be reasonable if you found [TS]

  yourself and in this situation or is a [TS]

  neutral or do you feel worse that like [TS]

  it that you know that you didn't realize [TS]

  this could happen but now you think it [TS]

  could happen to you can be screwed [TS]

  I mean I think you nailed it like the [TS]

  reason Apple cared so much about this [TS]

  was because they know how bad it would [TS]

  be if it appear that they were like [TS]

  capriciously suspending developer [TS]

  account for no reason like that would be [TS]

  terrible for the reputation among [TS]

  developers that they knew how important [TS]

  it was to make sure that the official [TS]

  story here which was true was that Apple [TS]

  did not make a mistake in detecting this [TS]

  fraud and suspended this account like [TS]

  that was not a mistake on their part [TS]

  they did not mess up they did not they [TS]

  were not being capricious they actually [TS]

  detected real fraud and on a linked [TS]

  account that was really linkedin in a [TS]

  way that is substantial and so like they [TS]

  want that story to be true that like [TS]

  this was not just them being wrong and [TS]

  and again the way they handle is I i [TS]

  think we handled it very well better [TS]

  than they had to and so because of those [TS]

  two things [TS]

  yes I feel good about this like you know [TS]

  if you can say as a developer working on [TS]

  the app store there's always a certain [TS]

  kind of minimum level of App Store BS [TS]

  that everyone has to put up with most [TS]

  mostly around like the review the policy [TS]

  and everything else but it really in the [TS]

  grand scheme of things that BS tends to [TS]

  be most of the time consistent and and [TS]

  easy to work with in for most developers [TS]

  and and it's a known quantity it's not [TS]

  usually capricious or like dangerous [TS]

  about to kill your business at any [TS]

  moment unless you're doing things really [TS]

  close to the edge of the rules which you [TS]

  know most people aren't and don't need [TS]

  to for the most part the the Apple as a [TS]

  gatekeeper does pretty well as [TS]

  gatekeepers go the whole concept of a [TS]

  gatekeeper to begin with is problematic [TS]

  sorry Merlin it is you know that it is [TS]

  challenging to get that right and is [TS]

  always going to be dysfunction and [TS]

  problems by having any gatekeeper but if [TS]

  you're going to have a gatekeeper I [TS]

  think Apple does a pretty good job of it [TS]

  and possibly even a very good job of it [TS]

  and as a developer on these platforms I [TS]

  am reassured by this story that Apple [TS]

  really does care to get things right and [TS]

  to make sure that they're doing right [TS]

  for the community as much as they can so [TS]

  I consider this a positive thing as a [TS]

  developer i consider it a bit of a pain [TS]

  in the butt as a customer of dash but [TS]

  purple lights [TS]

  I consider it a positive thing as a [TS]

  developer but that's why you should [TS]

  never buy your your mac apps in the mac [TS]

  app store once again we like available [TS]

  outside the mac app store by it outside [TS]

  the mac app store you'll just be happier [TS]

  which which is a problem for apples like [TS]

  ironic that like this is exposing like [TS]

  you you know that like this is something [TS]

  they can fix Apple internal ago when we [TS]

  spend a developer account [TS]

  shouldn't we still allow the apps to [TS]

  download they can fix that internally [TS]

  that seems like something you know if [TS]

  they care about the mac app store all [TS]

  that they would fix but yeah it's kind [TS]

  of sad that it's there [TS]

  they're kind of highlighting the the [TS]

  problems with the mac app store by doing [TS]

  the right thing and detecting and fraud [TS]

  in canceling announced we were supposed [TS]

  to tonight by pingdom go to pingdom calm [TS]

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  kingdom can for example monitor [TS]

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  it's incredibly flexible and incredibly [TS]

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  you can monitor the availability and [TS]

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  check out of an e-commerce site you have [TS]

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  lot more and stuff breaking the internet [TS]

  all the time every month can be text [TS]

  more than 13 million averages more than [TS]

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  really monitor its availability and [TS]

  performance i used kingdom I've used it [TS]

  since og's 2008 or something of very [TS]

  very long time ago doesn't seven [TS]

  something like that i use it back in the [TS]

  for days now use it for all my stuff now [TS]

  it is great i used kingdom all the time [TS]

  and I hope to never hear from them but [TS]

  when i do is when you hear from them [TS]

  some things down but when I do hear from [TS]

  them i'm really glad that they're there [TS]

  right the message saying hey this thing [TS]

  is down go check it it is very very nice [TS]

  can alert you via text message at push [TS]

  notification email any combination of [TS]

  those things is very customizable and [TS]

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  very long time [TS]

  all you do is give it give kingdom a URL [TS]

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  if it up and they take advantage they [TS]

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  check it out today go to pingdom calm / [TS]

  ATP for a 14-day free trial and got [TS]

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  for sponsoring ah so Marco tell us about [TS]

  dropbox and here's the thing [TS]

  dropbox is making questionable choices [TS]

  in in recent times there was a thing a [TS]

  couple weeks back where dropbox was [TS]

  basically discovered to be hacking the [TS]

  mac accessibility APIs database [TS]

  this is actually i believe it's fixed in [TS]

  Sierra but basically Mac os10 has a [TS]

  certain separate security level for [TS]

  accessibility related apps and this [TS]

  allows apps to to see way more system [TS]

  events things like capture and keyboard [TS]

  input and stuff like that you basically [TS]

  if you are an accessibility app you can [TS]

  basically see and and intercept and [TS]

  track everything happening on the system [TS]

  things that are considered secure you [TS]

  can you can still do you have access to [TS]

  them whereas most apps would not be able [TS]

  to do things like log every keystroke [TS]

  and that's you know everytime dinners [TS]

  things like that right and so drop box [TS]

  in order to to achieve certain features [TS]

  or something [TS]

  dropbox was forcefully injecting itself [TS]

  into the list of of apps using a prompt [TS]

  the prompt you for your password that [TS]

  looked like the system password box and [TS]

  how it was the system password box [TS]

  that's why i put this thing is you know [TS]

  it was yeah okay so like that you this [TS]

  is this i have this to before Marco [TS]

  started crying about dropbox I had an [TS]

  item in the notice that actually still [TS]

  blow their about dropboxes accessibility [TS]

  quote-unquote hack because the first [TS]

  stories about this were like so this [TS]

  observed this is the observed behavior [TS]

  which everyone agrees with crappy [TS]

  observed behavior is dropbox it wants [TS]

  you to turn on accessibility but if you [TS]

  say no I people you know and take and [TS]

  take it out the next time it comes up [TS]

  we'll just try to put itself back like [TS]

  if you go to the system preferences and [TS]

  remove it right and then you just reboot [TS]

  like it'll be back again and so that is [TS]

  the user hostile behavior because the [TS]

  user disabled it and then unbeknownst to [TS]

  them maybe just launched it again and [TS]

  put itself back and so the question was [TS]

  among the people who first saw this [TS]

  behavior who were probably not [TS]

  programmers or particular technical was [TS]

  like it must be saving my admin password [TS]

  because i entered my men password to [TS]

  allow it to do this stuff with them i [TS]

  want to system preferences and turn it [TS]

  off the only way they could be possibly [TS]

  turning it back on automatically which [TS]

  is this user hostile behavior that they [TS]

  observed is that it must have saved my [TS]

  men password which would indeed be [TS]

  horrible but anybody who knows anything [TS]

  about you know Mac os10 or whatever the [TS]

  hell is called now and you still never [TS]

  knows like they would never save your [TS]

  password that is the stupidest possible [TS]

  way to get the thing they want because [TS]

  once you enter your admin password they [TS]

  don't need your name and password [TS]

  anymore right and so yeah so they don't [TS]

  save your name and password which would [TS]

  be an end and you can't totally discount [TS]

  because we all hear about these websites [TS]

  saving people's passwords in plain tex [TS]

  so never never overestimate the security [TS]

  intelligence of people writing code but [TS]

  dropbox is a big company and its really [TS]

  hard for me to believe they'd recently [TS]

  had done they don't honestly I would [TS]

  have believed that I i hit by the time i [TS]

  read the story it was already discovered [TS]

  they weren't actually saving the [TS]

  password but I would not rule out that [TS]

  they would try but whatever they [TS]

  wouldn't notice it's a matter of [TS]

  confidence because dropbox has a lot of [TS]

  money and they have smart developers [TS]

  right and the reason I think it's not a [TS]

  matter of competence it's a matter of [TS]

  respect [TS]

  no no it's not [TS]

  it's not it's a matter of confidence [TS]

  because to do the thing they want to do [TS]

  which we all agree is hostile they don't [TS]

  need your password more than once once [TS]

  they enter it like what they actually [TS]

  did [TS]

  there's makes that uid executable like [TS]

  everybody knows that anyone's done any [TS]

  units hacking like as soon as you've got [TS]

  root access the first thing you do is [TS]

  make set uid executables second uid [TS]

  shell so you can get back like it's just [TS]

  like you given them heard men password [TS]

  they're like not to Dokdo chance check [TS]

  the set uid bit on these seat Joe now I [TS]

  have reset uid route executables done [TS]

  and done they don't need your password [TS]

  anymore right [TS]

  and so that that is you know and that is [TS]

  that what they use and it doesn't like [TS]

  every time you give it happen in [TS]

  password you are essentially saying by [TS]

  giving you this admin password you now [TS]

  have free reign of the whole system not [TS]

  just momentarily but because once i give [TS]

  it to you you can immediately makes that [TS]

  uid executable as whatever and just like [TS]

  that you know it's alright the the [TS]

  system integrity protection protects [TS]

  against that because it's like Oh even [TS]

  with root access you can modify these [TS]

  files or whatever but anyway that [TS]

  there's that so that was his competence [TS]

  like the best way to do this user [TS]

  hostile behavior is not to store their [TS]

  passwords you like they're smart they're [TS]

  not going to do that and they're gonna [TS]

  do it the smarter way to do this user [TS]

  also be hit right [TS]

  the second aspect of the part that's a [TS]

  hack part is like once you have that [TS]

  access it still doesn't mean you have to [TS]

  go directly to the sequel like databases [TS]

  start mucking with it's like using [TS]

  private guys it's like Apple like you [TS]

  don't know what the structure our [TS]

  databases just because you look in there [TS]

  and see a bunch of tables and columns [TS]

  and think you know how to hack it [TS]

  that's not that's not a public API it's [TS]

  not guaranteed since the same reason I [TS]

  want to use in private api's you're not [TS]

  supposed to even be looking at stuff we [TS]

  reserve the right to change that anytime [TS]

  so that is the quote unquote hack part [TS]

  of it is that don't directly access our [TS]

  databases behind-the-scenes we provide [TS]

  api's you have to use those you can't [TS]

  just go sneakily find what the [TS]

  underlying storage isn't and directly [TS]

  mess with it so that is I don't know why [TS]

  they were doing it that way maybe it's [TS]

  the easiest way to secretly do it behind [TS]

  the scenes but it's terrible and they [TS]

  were signing themselves up for a [TS]

  maintenance headache because it's like [TS]

  once you use a private api like that [TS]

  whether you know it or not you're now on [TS]

  the hook to track every little change [TS]

  Apple does to their internals instead of [TS]

  just tracking their api discs because at [TS]

  any moment at any point release they [TS]

  could totally change the structure of [TS]

  that database and your Apple blow up and [TS]

  it's totally your fault because you [TS]

  screw things up so that I would say is [TS]

  the best example of them doing something [TS]

  that's not a good developer practice but [TS]

  the the initial story about them [TS]

  changing your password is totally a [TS]

  misunderstanding of of the the fact they [TS]

  just they don't need your password like [TS]

  they're they would never do that because [TS]

  dumpy they have everything they need and [TS]

  more right all right so anyway [TS]

  however they were doing it dropbox was [TS]

  really inappropriately hacking the TCC [TS]

  database the accessibility database to [TS]

  to inject themselves forcefully even if [TS]

  you remove them so that to me is like [TS]

  offense number one for you know this [TS]

  this is not good and this is there they [TS]

  are eroding trust that i have in them [TS]

  and the ability and the willingness I [TS]

  have to run their software on my [TS]

  computer and give them access to [TS]

  literally everything on my computer and [TS]

  then up [TS]

  hello before a firm that I their [TS]

  defensive this as LinkedIn i think [TS]

  probably have the hackers news link [TS]

  developer talks about their defense is [TS]

  actually plausible as a mean you still [TS]

  just you still say like this is not [TS]

  socially acceptable behavior especially [TS]

  among tech savvy users but I can see [TS]

  where company like Dropbox can get into [TS]

  a situation where it thinks this is the [TS]

  right thing to do and it's basically [TS]

  that when you install an application if [TS]

  they have these one-time prompts that [TS]

  you answer coral growth the wrong way [TS]

  like you didn't understand what the hell [TS]

  was you just hit cancel or whatever and [TS]

  now you don't have like some kind of [TS]

  find your integration that you expected [TS]

  from dropbox right it can be a [TS]

  legitimate support issue that enough [TS]

  people click the wrong box and at one [TS]

  time setup thing and they're like [TS]

  Dropbox doesn't work when i see my [TS]

  friends computer there is little Badgers [TS]

  of these little whatever like whatever [TS]

  features accessibility providing is not [TS]

  working dropbox is broken and i can [TS]

  imagine that being a popular support [TS]

  request and then they have to walk [TS]

  people through all I go to the thing go [TS]

  to accessibility click the lock icon and [TS]

  go like to basically re-enable it and [TS]

  then the the sort of cutting the Gordian [TS]

  knot solution becomes you know what [TS]

  users can't handle this is too [TS]

  complicated they don't understand what [TS]

  we mean by accessibility they don't want [TS]

  to type in their main password they're [TS]

  scared by why don't we just like if they [TS]

  ever enter their main password put a [TS]

  little insurance but this berry sunset [TS]

  uid route executables [TS]

  our bundle and soon as the admin [TS]

  password put them there and you know [TS]

  what it actually is definitely gets [TS]

  turned off by a point release or an OS [TS]

  update or whatever so we won't hear from [TS]

  people saying hey drop box is broken [TS]

  again why don't we just turn it on like [TS]

  it's paternalistic it's like they won't [TS]

  even know we do it we'll do it behind [TS]

  the scenes they won't see any you i will [TS]

  cut down on our support request that I [TS]

  think is the headspace that they get [TS]

  into it's not particularly nefarious [TS]

  they're just trying to solve a support [TS]

  problem but they eventually that they [TS]

  wrap themselves up in knots to where [TS]

  they think they're actually doing people [TS]

  a favor by doing this [TS]

  whereas we all realize you've gone too [TS]

  far in the hopes of like let's make it a [TS]

  smooth experience for most users at the [TS]

  expensive being sneaky and it's the [TS]

  wrong thing to do but i think it is not [TS]

  done because they are malicious or bad [TS]

  developers think it's actually because [TS]

  they're trying to make make the [TS]

  experience better for everybody like why [TS]

  don't we just solve this why are we [TS]

  bothering users with this crap why don't [TS]

  we just make drop people just like [TS]

  Dropbox to work like Dropbox we have a [TS]

  technology we can just make it work and [TS]

  that's I think where they went wrong in [TS]

  that that feature and the thing is like [TS]

  if you're going to you know basically [TS]

  it's the attitude that a lot of [TS]

  developers of and platform owners have [TS]

  of like we know better than our users so [TS]

  we're just going to do it for you [TS]

  we're gonna do things the way we think [TS]

  are right for you and you just have to [TS]

  go along for the ride because that's [TS]

  going to be best for you and you know it [TS]

  and there's there's a place for that and [TS]

  there's lots of places where that is the [TS]

  the most pragmatic or the correct [TS]

  solution or or position to take but as a [TS]

  user I want to make sure that whatever [TS]

  software i am granting that level of [TS]

  control too i want to make sure that I [TS]

  agree with their judgment in general and [TS]

  and their their technical abilities and [TS]

  their way of doing things and if i start [TS]

  doubting somebody's judgment or [TS]

  integrity or or skill then I don't want [TS]

  them making decisions for me and doing [TS]

  things behind my back and and and having [TS]

  access that I don't believe that they [TS]

  need and things like that that becomes a [TS]

  trust issue of insecurity issue and and [TS]

  lots of other potential problems so my [TS]

  problem with dropbox here [TS]

  or is that accessibility hack I think [TS]

  shows poor judgment and I think that is [TS]

  irresponsible the way they did that so [TS]

  did Apple which is why Apple made it [TS]

  impossible putting the accessibility [TS]

  stuff into system integrity protection [TS]

  in Sierra and apple is one such as you [TS]

  know Apple is one of these companies to [TS]

  or apple in many ways Apple apples [TS]

  implied position is basically we know [TS]

  best we're gonna do this for you and [TS]

  you're not gonna have control and and if [TS]

  you're an apple customer or user you [TS]

  have to basically decide like do i do I [TS]

  trust apple with this control and do i [TS]

  generally agree with their judgment or [TS]

  you know in order to have to give this [TS]

  control happily without problems right [TS]

  and a lot of people who don't like Apple [TS]

  product you don't use a product the [TS]

  reason they don't use apple products [TS]

  because they don't want to get that [TS]

  control they don't agree with a [TS]

  positions in those areas and they are [TS]

  they don't trust Apple to have that [TS]

  level of ability and that's fine right [TS]

  and my issue here with dropbox is that [TS]

  they make decisions like this they also [TS]

  like the it in their beta channel which [TS]

  is still in beta granted but in their [TS]

  beta channel they recently quote tested [TS]

  a toolbar that was like injected into [TS]

  Finder windows just make sure this giant [TS]

  like to wear which it looks like malware [TS]

  like was detected in the bottom of the [TS]

  window and it's like no that's that's [TS]

  not okay like that [TS]

  why who thought that was a good idea but [TS]

  that's just a bad feature being rolled [TS]

  as a baby and everyone you know the try [TS]

  it on ebay user all users go that's [TS]

  awful right but like the this physics of [TS]

  injecting that you will eventually get [TS]

  to this I think later but like the [TS]

  origin of dropbox is that it was [TS]

  basically accion the finder you do all [TS]

  the little badges in the icons like that [TS]

  is that is the product we all fell in [TS]

  love with his boys that one didn't like [TS]

  literally inject itself into the finder [TS]

  process to do this to look like the [TS]

  worst kind of hack the worst kind of [TS]

  totally unsupportable unsupported hack [TS]

  and I think a lot of the reason I mean [TS]

  that's the Apple came to to to start [TS]

  using and we liked it and we like the [TS]

  badges we like you know they gave you [TS]

  some reassurance raincheck Markets Inc [TS]

  little blue thing it's not like right [TS]

  that's that's dropbox they didn't have [TS]

  that feature it would have been a lesser [TS]

  product and because the people who did [TS]

  it were clever enough to get it done in [TS]

  a way that didn't some late cause the [TS]

  finder to be crashing left and right [TS]

  and we're able to chase Apple as they [TS]

  updated the finder and keep it working [TS]

  and so on so forth to the point where [TS]

  Apple eventually said dropbox is so [TS]

  popular and badging things is the thing [TS]

  that people actually want to do we're [TS]

  going to add an official AP office they [TS]

  finally did the taxis pass on the grass [TS]

  thing that been talking about all these [TS]

  years ago was like look at what people [TS]

  are using if you don't want them to use [TS]

  the disgusting hack to use this feature [TS]

  making officially supported API and I'm [TS]

  pretty sure I'm some i'm sure people [TS]

  will send an email from wrong it's been [TS]

  a pretty sure the dropbox did eventually [TS]

  adopt that official API rather than [TS]

  continuing the hackers that we drop [TS]

  boxes and when i do that hack they would [TS]

  love to have a support ABI presumably if [TS]

  the support API does everything the [TS]

  dropbox needed to do this of course they [TS]

  would adopt it and I think they have in [TS]

  the later versions that's not really the [TS]

  system working like but during all that [TS]

  time we were all like yeah badges and [TS]

  rock icons is great [TS]

  alright so it's not so much that they [TS]

  added a hack for this is that you could [TS]

  say the fact that someone thought this [TS]

  was a statically pleasing inappropriate [TS]

  you I issues for judgment which I'm I'm [TS]

  on board with you there right it looks [TS]

  like i'm thinking like those internet [TS]

  explorer toolbars you know that yeah I [TS]

  you just look like that shows poor [TS]

  judgment but the fact that it's not a [TS]

  the fact that is injected like well you [TS]

  know origin dropbox was founded on on [TS]

  ill-advised code injection which is [TS]

  probably not on the wall in their [TS]

  headquarters but might not [TS]

  yeah fair enough anyway so drop box in [TS]

  my opinion has shown poor judgment [TS]

  recently and and questionable technical [TS]

  decisions but also in it there's some [TS]

  performance issues like Dropbox appears [TS]

  to monitor all file system activity in [TS]

  some way like not just in their folder [TS]

  but in the whole system so i have some [TS]

  things to say about that as well [TS]

  okay we're going about this they've been [TS]

  doing that for freaking ever from the [TS]

  very beginning dbfs venti has been there [TS]

  slurping from the fs events fire hose [TS]

  and being Justin functions always been [TS]

  this is not a new thing like whether its [TS]

  ill-advised or not it's like maybe not [TS]

  from the very very beginning but for [TS]

  many many years and if you have to look [TS]

  at top and cdfs events the grinding up [TS]

  your things especially if you had a slow [TS]

  spinning disk and especially if you have [TS]

  a small number of [TS]

  where's that is not a new development [TS]

  now you can say a preponderance of [TS]

  things have been bothering me about [TS]

  dropbox and also i know i noticed that [TS]

  it's eating up my cpu cycles and they [TS]

  shouldn't be drinking from the fs events [TS]

  firehouse and they should be using the [TS]

  officially supported estimates API and [TS]

  doing the dips themselves and so on and [TS]

  so forth that is a legit complaint but [TS]

  its not New so I think for you [TS]

  personally you to think about while [TS]

  you're at your end of your rope about [TS]

  dropbox that could be a contributing [TS]

  factor but just because you may have [TS]

  become aware of it recently doesn't mean [TS]

  it's not something that has been a [TS]

  constant for many years [TS]

  that's fair totally fair but anyway so [TS]

  with these problems that are finding [TS]

  with dropbox I started thinking could i [TS]

  remove dropbox from my life could i [TS]

  switch to something else for the for the [TS]

  roles that I use dropbox for and and how [TS]

  difficult would that make my life in [TS]

  working with other people basically that [TS]

  and this is an interesting exercise I [TS]

  started realizing that like at a lot of [TS]

  of the way I work and the software i use [TS]

  is tied very closely to dropbox right [TS]

  now and and I don't even use it as much [TS]

  as a lot of people and like a lot of [TS]

  geeks are no don't they put like all [TS]

  their photos and dropbox all they're [TS]

  like text everything like it like I [TS]

  actually use dropbox pretty lightly [TS]

  compared to many people i know but even [TS]

  then like something like how do i how [TS]

  would I move off of dropbox of things [TS]

  finally pushed me over the edge I [TS]

  decided because i'm not there like I'm [TS]

  not saying right now i'm leaving dropbox [TS]

  period [TS]

  i I don't know that I don't know what [TS]

  I'm going to be doing that yet but I [TS]

  start thinking like what what is dropbox [TS]

  continues going down a path i disagree [TS]

  with and and I decide that I want to [TS]

  leave like what does that look like hell [TS]

  wouldn't you what do I go to first of [TS]

  all right well before before you explain [TS]

  your conclusions why don't we talk about [TS]

  something that's definitely [TS]

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  they basically you take 14 unique [TS]

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  yourself will even send you a little [TS]

  cloth measuring tape if you need it and [TS]

  then go see you into these amazing [TS]

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  and in some cases even ask you for [TS]

  pictures just to kind of verify certain [TS]

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  look your way [TS]

  so I've been trying to figure out if [TS]

  there's any alternatives to dropbox I [TS]

  could switch to and then and how that [TS]

  would look how that would work what you [TS]

  know what I would have to move or change [TS]

  about my work flows are set up to to [TS]

  really achieve that and like I I you so [TS]

  much for dropping that like I have my my [TS]

  one password sync is there i have a [TS]

  couple of like text a person to it my [TS]

  entire blog engine is based on dropbox [TS]

  sinking and editable text files are in [TS]

  dropbox folder and the way edit my blog [TS]

  on my phone is by using dropboxing text [TS]

  editors so it it would be non-trivial to [TS]

  switch off at once mentioned one of the [TS]

  biggest thing about dropbox shared [TS]

  folders like you know we the three of us [TS]

  on the show we have a shared folder like [TS]

  that's how John in case you get their [TS]

  audio files to me after each show that's [TS]

  how we that's where we put like any kind [TS]

  of shared files things like artwork and [TS]

  sound effects and there's so many like [TS]

  so many people like when you're working [TS]

  with small group of people especially if [TS]

  they're nerds like us you will almost [TS]

  always have like Dropbox shared folders [TS]

  or Dropbox share links involved in that [TS]

  in that work group in some way so it [TS]

  really is not trivial to switch away and [TS]

  there aren't a whole lot of solutions on [TS]

  how to switch away like assuming you [TS]

  want the same kind of thing there's I [TS]

  don't like five or six different things [TS]

  you could do that there's not a ton the [TS]

  ones i got the most recommendations for [TS]

  our uh what used to be called BitTorrent [TS]

  sync and is now called resilient and [TS]

  then there's also see file and SE a file [TS]

  there's not a lot about it out there but [TS]

  people who use it tend to love it [TS]

  apparently like I is it is not a lot [TS]

  like that the not a lot know in the way [TS]

  of like apps for like iOS and stuff or [TS]

  anything like that but people seem to [TS]

  love see file so i might try that as [TS]

  well I didn't really get a noticeable [TS]

  amount of recommendations for any other [TS]

  solution i'm curious have you guys ever [TS]

  tried any of these other things that can [TS]

  that can do dropbox like functions [TS]

  no but what about the synology cloud [TS]

  station whatever they call it [TS]

  oh yeah I i do want to try that as well [TS]

  I'm a little guy I worry about like you [TS]

  know because it is probably a fairly [TS]

  small audience thing I worry again with [TS]

  that I worry about things like [TS]

  app support that's why if you're going [TS]

  to try one if it in a world without [TS]

  without like mobile devices are just [TS]

  thinking between two computers i would [TS]

  probably try see file because that seems [TS]

  like it is that it is the best regarded [TS]

  in that way but because we're in this [TS]

  world of like mobile and you need things [TS]

  like apps and stuff I think BitTorrent [TS]

  sync extremely resilient is probably the [TS]

  one to use that seems like the most [TS]

  popular alternative that is roughly what [TS]

  I'm looking for I go with the bigger [TS]

  names like I've used like box fault for [TS]

  ya voluntarily a multi-use box it work [TS]

  did not like but it is very dropbox like [TS]

  just imagine dropbox but worse [TS]

  that's great that's what I'm looking for [TS]

  yeah Google Drive obviously widely [TS]

  supported is available on mobile it [TS]

  works more or less like Dropbox i do use [TS]

  that voluntarily both at work and at [TS]

  home and if I feel like if i if i was [TS]

  going off dropbox for whatever reason [TS]

  that's probably where I would go because [TS]

  it is very widely supported i already [TS]

  know i'm in to the Google ecosystem [TS]

  pretty well yeah so but i haven't had [TS]

  any problems with it i can't save [TS]

  exercise as much as Dropbox basically I [TS]

  don't run google drive unless i needed i [TS]

  launched it i use the web UI line and if [TS]

  i wanted to be on my mac i launched it [TS]

  do whatever I need to do and then quit [TS]

  so obviously i'm not giving the same [TS]

  workout the dropbox does but that seems [TS]

  to me the most obvious well-supported [TS]

  reasonable alternative i have no idea [TS]

  how it behaves in terms of nice into [TS]

  your system [TS]

  I know lots of Google stuff annoys me by [TS]

  when you give it your root password at [TS]

  some of your admin password at some [TS]

  point and it gets admin privileges it [TS]

  installs all sorts of little Watchers to [TS]

  make sure that all the google apps are [TS]

  kept up to date which is kind of nice [TS]

  but also kind of creepy when like this [TS]

  dialog pops up asking it updated google [TS]

  app that you haven't launched in like a [TS]

  year and a half and you're like what is [TS]

  that has been that been running on my [TS]

  system trying to make sure google earth [TS]

  is up-to-date that I haven't launched in [TS]

  forever like go away whatever their [TS]

  Keystone process like I don't like that [TS]

  but you know maybe that's what's keeping [TS]

  me away from those in and on dropbox [TS]

  what I feel like Dropbox is more [TS]

  understandable I kind of know what it's [TS]

  doing [TS]

  and you know the it in finer detail but [TS]

  anyway that seems like the most obvious [TS]

  alternatives you might want to give that [TS]

  a try depends on what your main [TS]

  objection to drop boxes is it like ugly [TS]

  why is it installing weird crap in your [TS]

  system is it performance like but i [TS]

  would say that you know that doesn't [TS]

  help you with the social aspects of the [TS]

  sort of network effect of like hey we're [TS]

  all using dropbox and you're over there [TS]

  and google drive but google drive is [TS]

  pretty well supported on all mobile [TS]

  platforms has a really nice web UI and [TS]

  and does the job I mean and there is [TS]

  there is one little saving grace with [TS]

  with dropbox like with with having to [TS]

  use dropbox if you don't want it [TS]

  software running is that they do have a [TS]

  pretty robust web interface so you [TS]

  couldn't you can if you if you're forced [TS]

  to work with dropbox people and you [TS]

  don't want to wonder about yourself you [TS]

  can actually get a lot of it done with [TS]

  that web interface not all of it but you [TS]

  can you can do a lot there i think also [TS]

  with with with both Google Drive and [TS]

  Dropbox which as compared to iCloud [TS]

  Drive which is apparently not in the [TS]

  running here [TS]

  yeah i was gonna mention and yeah that [TS]

  the glorious thing about this is that no [TS]

  matter what we think about dropbox and [TS]

  google drive this maybe not true but i [TS]

  think we also have the feeling that if I [TS]

  quit dropbox it's out of the picture [TS]

  until I relaunch it right but you can [TS]

  quit is a third-party application you [TS]

  can put it on your mac and then like so [TS]

  if you were to quit you feel like all [TS]

  right well dropbox is not in the picture [TS]

  anymore right [TS]

  whatever evil it was doing before [TS]

  whatever annoyance I was having and for [TS]

  the most part both of them respect the [TS]

  thing of like launch one dialogue and [TS]

  yes no they don't automatically turn [TS]

  that one back on and so you can turn off [TS]

  dropbox and have some confidence that [TS]

  it's not messing you anymore as opposed [TS]

  to iCloud Drive which is always the [TS]

  suspicion that you know some part of the [TS]

  system is doing stuff behind the scenes [TS]

  and you can't just quit if you wanted [TS]

  out of the picture like but you haven't [TS]

  brought this up forever like the idea of [TS]

  a expanding xcode with its thousands and [TS]

  thousands of files and you don't want my [TS]

  BBFS NT grinding up on your record from [TS]

  dropbox observing every single facet [TS]

  event you can quit dropbox and then [TS]

  you'll like that won't happen anymore if [TS]

  I could drive was doing the same thing [TS]

  which hopefully it isn't you don't have [TS]

  that option except for maybe uncheck the [TS]

  checkbox and it's saying you sure you [TS]

  want to remove all these you know having [TS]

  all your documents onto desktop [TS]

  disappear or some other weird thing when [TS]

  you could drop box and you can quit and [TS]

  being nothing happens to your Dropbox [TS]

  folder like it stays however it was when [TS]

  you quit which is I think reassuring [TS]

  yeah I mean I cloud drive is a few [TS]

  people also recommended that and it [TS]

  seems like while most people have issues [TS]

  with other iCloud things the especially [TS]

  things like the Sierra you know document [TS]

  and stop saying stuff it seems like [TS]

  iCloud drive is pretty good for most [TS]

  people that most of the reports that we [TS]

  got from it [TS]

  we're very positive and a lot of people [TS]

  said that they stopped using dropbox and [TS]

  just use iCloud Drive now so I i might [TS]

  consider that iCloud Drive still kind of [TS]

  bothers me though in the way that it's [TS]

  not just a folder like it looks like a [TS]

  folder and find her but isn't it kind of [TS]

  knot isn't kind of weirdly all over the [TS]

  place it's like library mobile document [TS]

  so i would just caution again are fine [TS]

  but just don't use it with pages or any [TS]

  of our complications because apparently [TS]

  makes it so you can opener saving your [TS]

  files right [TS]

  yes that's been kind of like what what [TS]

  is great about dropbox is that it the [TS]

  weights and what it is is so [TS]

  conceptually simple it's like this II [TS]

  there's a special folder on your hard [TS]

  drive you can see where it is the [TS]

  regular folder full of regular files but [TS]

  there's this thing in the background [TS]

  that runs that keeps it in sync with [TS]

  that same folder on your other computers [TS]

  like that is great and and I I compared [TS]

  the past one of them they like about [TS]

  that is that it kind of has the failure [TS]

  mode of a train when the failure mode of [TS]

  an airplane was like like if an airplane [TS]

  fails it crashes and you die if a train [TS]

  fails it's just not moving everything is [TS]

  still there you just kind of stopped [TS]

  moving and like that's kind of how I [TS]

  feel with drop like the way dropbox like [TS]

  Dropbox service has any kind of issue [TS]

  which it does it is not perfect i've [TS]

  seen issues many times as somebody who's [TS]

  a blog engine based on dropbox you know [TS]

  if dropbox fails all my files are just [TS]

  still sitting there on my drive if [TS]

  dropbox has some kind of catastrophic [TS]

  error and like wipes out all my files it [TS]

  like i'm gonna choose sync problem and [TS]

  delete all my files those files in the [TS]

  directory has got a time machine or my [TS]

  backups and I can just get the file off [TS]

  the backups so like it the the ways in [TS]

  which you can fail our are pretty like [TS]

  low-key safe things that i can easily [TS]

  recover from as a responsible computer [TS]

  user who has backups whereas with a lot [TS]

  of solutions there like a little too [TS]

  smart a little too abstracted I don't [TS]

  have that kind of luxury some of them do [TS]

  work that way but many of them don't [TS]

  and so that's why that's why i was [TS]

  thinking like BitTorrent sync again [TS]

  knowing very little about it because it [TS]

  seems like that was probably going to be [TS]

  more like what I wanted but in reality [TS]

  I'm probably just gonna stick with [TS]

  dropbox for a while but kinda taking a [TS]

  few steps out the door like keeping one [TS]

  foot out the door hit in a way looks [TS]

  because however prefer do most things [TS]

  with like service and I commit myself to [TS]

  so you know I i'm going to at some point [TS]

  start moving things off the dropbox like [TS]

  i'm gonna move one password sync out of [TS]

  that i'm going to stop adding anything [TS]

  new to dropbox that would never do [TS]

  require its integration start you know [TS]

  sending around links to people because [TS]

  download files instead of you know [TS]

  having dropbox shared folders [TS]

  necessarily you know don't invest into [TS]

  into photos there things like that like [TS]

  just kind of like kinda putting dropbox [TS]

  at a bit of a distance and starting to [TS]

  move out of it slowly because i think i [TS]

  think they're in there showing enough [TS]

  bad judgment over time here that I think [TS]

  the time will come that I will want to [TS]

  move off of it and i kinda wanna be [TS]

  ready for that and that's easier said [TS]

  than done and I definitely take issue [TS]

  with some of the shady things that have [TS]

  been going on but I do think that it's [TS]

  especially if you take the hacker news [TS]

  comments as actually coming from an [TS]

  engineer and an engineer that is to some [TS]

  degree obviously unofficially speaking [TS]

  for the company [TS]

  it doesn't seem like any of this was [TS]

  really malicious it was just either [TS]

  ill-advised or or perhaps you know they [TS]

  weren't as smart as we hope they were or [TS]

  whatever the case may be but I don't [TS]

  know I feel like Dropbox is fairly [TS]

  essential to me getting my my life done [TS]

  i was going to say work because my life [TS]

  so it would take quite a lot for me to [TS]

  want to walk away from it and i am not [TS]

  at that point yet and I think I'm [TS]

  further away from that point and you are [TS]

  and that's not a bad thing that's that's [TS]

  not a good thing is just the thing but [TS]

  it's certainly worth keeping an eye on [TS]

  and certainly you know we were talking [TS]

  earlier about you know what is everyones [TS]

  person [TS]

  option of Apple after this whole [TS]

  kerfuffle with dash and what is [TS]

  everyone's perception of dropbox after [TS]

  this came at came to light and I feel [TS]

  like Dropbox which used to be kind of [TS]

  like panic level can do no wrong in my [TS]

  mind anyway can do no wrong generally [TS]

  speaking is really good code that seems [TS]

  to always work etc it it doesn't seem [TS]

  quite so cut-and-dry to me anymore and [TS]

  that's too bad but you know even the [TS]

  mighty can fall [TS]

  alright thanks a lot two or three [TS]

  sponsor this week betterment kingdom and [TS]

  indochino we will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin as it was accidental [TS]

  accidental Johnson [TS]

  research Marco in kc wouldn't let down [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  and you can find the show know today p [TS]

  dot and if your twitter follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment are see that [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  what [TS]

  what are you doing the post-show you [TS]

  want to talk about your camera's yeah we [TS]

  got more marker waffling there should be [TS]

  a new we should put the capital W on [TS]

  that Marco waffling here we come [TS]

  waffling yeah the category things where [TS]

  Margo decides on a direction for his [TS]

  life like an example would be I like BMW [TS]

  cars and then that the this determined [TS]

  after that is I like electric cars right [TS]

  then we assume there will be some point [TS]

  in the future perhaps distant future of [TS]

  Marco starts walking electric cars so [TS]

  this one is that that's how we define [TS]

  this this category of thing I don't want [TS]

  Marco often doesn't have a good ring to [TS]

  it we got it we got a workshop that name [TS]

  gonna come anyway the current round of [TS]

  Marco waffling which by the way it [TS]

  sounds like it's a bad name but just [TS]

  joking really what it is is Marco being [TS]

  willing to revisit decisions he's made [TS]

  in the past when the conditions change [TS]

  they're going which is an admirable [TS]

  thing but it's much more fun to make fun [TS]

  of him about it and use the word waffle [TS]

  because it's funny [TS]

  so anyway the current one is his cameras [TS]

  you know for years I used SL ours they [TS]

  gradually fell out of out of favor as I [TS]

  just didn't want to carry them anywhere [TS]

  and then I i got this little tiny sony [TS]

  rx1 because it could basically see in [TS]

  the dark the center was so good and I [TS]

  had an amazing little prime lens on it [TS]

  the limitations of that camera with both [TS]

  you know things like autofocus speed [TS]

  this is the old argument is that there's [TS]

  a new ones better but there's the first [TS]

  one auto focus speed sucked the battery [TS]

  life sucked and I want a little more [TS]

  versatility in the land selection and [TS]

  just you know just a little bit better [TS]

  performance and it wasn't small enough [TS]

  that i was actually carrying in many [TS]

  places because it was still a camera [TS]

  that couldn't fit in my pocket so about [TS]

  a year ago I i switch to the the new [TS]

  sony a7r too because it's so it's this [TS]

  is my first mirrorless like but it's [TS]

  still interchangeable lens camera it's [TS]

  an amazing camera in many many ways the [TS]

  a7r to is if in many ways the best [TS]

  camera in the world right now however it [TS]

  is not perfect and it's not perverted in [TS]

  some fairly large ways and over the last [TS]

  year [TS]

  I have thought I can get by this and I [TS]

  can get used to this and i'll get out [TS]

  faster so the main reasons the sony a7r [TS]

  to is not perfect [TS]

  our number one and this is a huge one [TS]

  which I'll describe why later battery [TS]

  life and ever since the beginning I mean [TS]

  I made fun of the fact that the camera [TS]

  is the battery life is so bad that it [TS]

  ships with two batteries in the box is [TS]

  the first time i ever bought any [TS]

  electronic device that includes two of [TS]

  its own battery because everyone who [TS]

  uses it will need more than one I wish [TS]

  mine came with two batteries like 50 [TS]

  bucks for a little turkey battery I know [TS]

  and I've lost two of them so anyway so [TS]

  it the battery life is terrible [TS]

  you know you're lucky to get through a [TS]

  day using it and and you can you can [TS]

  only do you can only get through a whole [TS]

  day if you are very very careful and you [TS]

  kind of baby the battery the second [TS]

  problem with it is that it is it is [TS]

  pretty slow turn it on you know it takes [TS]

  a few seconds to kind of boot up and get [TS]

  it self-oriented shot to shot time if [TS]

  you want to review the pictures that [TS]

  you're taking with it it is very very [TS]

  slow takes a few seconds after it has [TS]

  shot before you can really review them [TS]

  if you if you want to review a picture [TS]

  and zoom in to check to make sure like [TS]

  you that you that you focused correctly [TS]

  or the right thing wasn't focusing you [TS]

  want to like zoom in and check that [TS]

  takes a long time like a few seconds [TS]

  delay riding the pictures to the card [TS]

  takes a long time which is partly [TS]

  because they're so large but also [TS]

  probably because you think the image [TS]

  processor just slow just to provide some [TS]

  context here by the way over you i'm [TS]

  sure you'll get to the context [TS]

  eventually but my sony which I'm sure is [TS]

  well not sure actually is it is actually [TS]

  slower and all those things you describe [TS]

  yours because mine is actually newer [TS]

  yours is yours is almost a year newer [TS]

  and also shoots much smaller photos so [TS]

  it's you I bet yours is probably faster [TS]

  well i was going to say I totally [TS]

  believe that this is slower than the [TS]

  thing you're actually comparing it to [TS]

  which we'll get to in a moment but it's [TS]

  the best camera of everyone so they [TS]

  could the world when you go from the [TS]

  world of like three digit price cameras [TS]

  to the world four-digit price cameras i [TS]

  was amazed at how fast this thing turns [TS]

  on how fast it boots up how fast does [TS]

  everything [TS]

  so everything's relative but anyway [TS]

  contain the results of this camera it [TS]

  has the most amazing sensor I've ever [TS]

  seen I think it might even be one of the [TS]

  best testing for intentions in the world [TS]

  bye-bye like testing metrics like pho [TS]

  market everything it is an incredibly [TS]

  awesome sensor I can basically see in [TS]

  the dark with very little noise dynamic [TS]

  range is ridiculous [TS]

  it has an incredibly advanced auto focus [TS]

  system the main problem is just that [TS]

  it's so slow and that the battery life [TS]

  is so bad and the battery life manifest [TS]

  itself in interesting ways that I [TS]

  thought I hadn't necessarily foreseen [TS]

  foresaw when when i when i bought it in [TS]

  first and even when i bought a new [TS]

  battery life was gonna be great but but [TS]

  there are certain ways this is a problem [TS]

  so for instance it has Wi-Fi but I've [TS]

  never used it because energy in order [TS]

  for it to be convenient to use you have [TS]

  to leave the Wi-Fi enabled in some way [TS]

  and then you'll eventually launch [TS]

  everything and to get reasonable better [TS]

  if I this camera you have to do things [TS]

  like keep it in airplane mode so i just [TS]

  never use the flat because it's just [TS]

  like I have I have a call these settings [TS]

  like maximize the power consumption also [TS]

  like as you're shooting throughout the [TS]

  day because mirrorless if the camera is [TS]

  on if it's ready to go [TS]

  one of the two screens is always on [TS]

  either the ones in the electronic [TS]

  viewfinder or the one in the back screen [TS]

  is always on if the camera is ready to [TS]

  shoot [TS]

  unlike SLR is really at slrs if you have [TS]

  the back screen on this one thing but in [TS]

  normal with us are you shooting through [TS]

  the optical viewfinder there's no screen [TS]

  on in that process there might be the [TS]

  metering sensor might be active [TS]

  depending on the moats and whether it's [TS]

  certain things you're sleeping but [TS]

  basically there's no screens around so a [TS]

  DSLR that is just ready to shoot but not [TS]

  actually shooting a picture uses very [TS]

  little power and it's one of the reasons [TS]

  why dslrs get so much better battery [TS]

  life then these large full frame but [TS]

  still mirrorless cameras that have lots [TS]

  of processing demands but very small [TS]

  batteries so for the sony in order to [TS]

  save battery life i often need to flip [TS]

  it off when im using it just it just you [TS]

  know if I'm not gonna be shooting for [TS]

  the next couple of minutes I'll just [TS]

  flip it off because if you don't look as [TS]

  you like move around and the camera like [TS]

  you know bounces off your chest off your [TS]

  sides are walking around like it'll will [TS]

  detect it will think your eyes [TS]

  against a soldier on the eps screen or [TS]

  then it will think you're not against [TS]

  this will turn the back screen so it's [TS]

  basically there's always a screen being [TS]

  on and the sensor being you know [TS]

  capturing the data and showing it to the [TS]

  screen so the power draw these things is [TS]

  incredibly high in just like walking [TS]

  around mixed shooting use and so you [TS]

  basically have to keep them switched off [TS]

  when you're not shooting to save the [TS]

  battery so that means that every time [TS]

  you want to take a shot if it was off [TS]

  you got to turn it on you get away from [TS]

  the boot up again so that's like a few [TS]

  seconds lost their and and because of [TS]

  that i have often missed shots because [TS]

  like as my kids getting older [TS]

  he's getting faster at this is the thing [TS]

  that happens i guess i'm learning this [TS]

  but that's the most dangerous game [TS]

  covers exactly exactly so basically it [TS]

  is causing me to miss a lot of shots and [TS]

  it's causing me to not use certain [TS]

  features very well and if these aren't [TS]

  the only examples but basically like [TS]

  ensure it i'm not able to use the camera [TS]

  its full potential because i need to [TS]

  baby the battery so much it is a lot [TS]

  more inconvenient than i expected to [TS]

  have a battery life that this bad [TS]

  compared to slrs which i use for you [TS]

  beforehand you know SLR like you can [TS]

  leave it on all day and it won't be a [TS]

  problem at all like it'll be in like a [TS]

  certain low-power mode and if you like [TS]

  if you lift it up and have press the [TS]

  shutter button its it is on like a [TS]

  half-second ready to go [TS]

  like it's so fast for SLR to to exit the [TS]

  on but idle state bandits right there [TS]

  like it's so fast so and you can and [TS]

  when it's when it's in that on I'll say [TS]

  to use so little power you can literally [TS]

  leave it there for like all day or even [TS]

  days and yet the battery won't die it's [TS]

  incredible like how big is our batteries [TS]

  hard how long they last relative to [TS]

  America's camera like those so maybe a [TS]

  month after i got the so-named I I'd [TS]

  picked up our old 5d Mark still uses the [TS]

  5d mark two most of the time so about a [TS]

  month after the sony i was already [TS]

  getting used to and I picked up the 5d [TS]

  mark two I thought this is the largest [TS]

  heaviest dinosaur I've ever felt this is [TS]

  crazy i'm so glad i moved to Maryland [TS]

  etc now a year and a couple of months in [TS]

  now that i am more custom to the [TS]

  limitations and annoyingness of this [TS]

  particular mirrorless camera and of into [TS]

  some degree of merrells cameras in [TS]

  general [TS]

  all this past weekend i picked up tips [TS]

  camera to take a few shots she had my [TS]

  favorite lens mounted on the the 1 35 [TS]

  millimeter cannon f2 we want a quick [TS]

  shot outside i picked up this camera and [TS]

  took a few shots with the 135 of my kid [TS]

  being cute and a pumpkin patch [TS]

  I just flew on it it was like night and [TS]

  day and I thought having been out of [TS]

  practice with with that camera control [TS]

  scheme for a year and it being an [TS]

  eight-year-old camera compared to my [TS]

  like awesome high-end new sony I thought [TS]

  this would be slower i wouldn't be able [TS]

  to get things in focus because the focus [TS]

  system is so primitive in the old 5d [TS]

  mark two compared to what we have today [TS]

  and I i thought the picture looked as [TS]

  good as there's so much lower resolution [TS]

  sensor is so old and crappy and the [TS]

  reality is not only did I fly on the [TS]

  controls but I nailed tons of shots very [TS]

  quickly because it like just shooting [TS]

  with an SLR especially a good SLR like [TS]

  the 5d series is so much faster than a [TS]

  full-frame mirrorless and I know there [TS]

  are smaller non full-frame mirrorless [TS]

  cameras there's lots that are in the [TS]

  aps-c sensor size range of the micro [TS]

  four-thirds size range and because these [TS]

  these process smaller sensors with a lot [TS]

  fewer pixels they often are a lot faster [TS]

  and it is also possible i know to make a [TS]

  full frame camera that is very very fast [TS]

  because at XOXO i was able to to briefly [TS]

  use a friends like a is that the q1 to [TS]

  fix 28 millimeter lens whatever it was [TS]

  it was one of the one of the like are [TS]

  like five-thousand-dollar mirrorless [TS]

  things and it was amazing how incredibly [TS]

  fast and responsibility that's what i [TS]

  noticed immediately about that camera [TS]

  and honest I don't love the idea of a [TS]

  fixed 20 millimeter lens being the only [TS]

  ones in a camera even know that [TS]

  typically with the iphone is that but [TS]

  anyway so because it's like a queue is [TS]

  not probably for me but Wow was it nice [TS]

  to you fast camera again so i use that [TS]

  XOXO about a month ago over this weekend [TS]

  i use tips XLR tips SLR excellent after [TS]

  the audio will too much i basically [TS]

  realize that oh my god i really love a [TS]

  fast pro handling camera like as i was [TS]

  talking a couple of weeks ago about the [TS]

  difference between like four [TS]

  no hardware and non-pro hardware want [TS]

  one of those described about pro stuff [TS]

  and in the comfort of cameras like pro [TS]

  stuff is not only like durable and had [TS]

  made to tolerate extreme conditions [TS]

  better and usually has better service [TS]

  but also pro stuff just handles faster [TS]

  and it has more control and it doesn't [TS]

  always necessarily have to be the [TS]

  smallest it doesn't always necessarily [TS]

  have to be technically the best buy [TS]

  certain measures but it has to be like [TS]

  reliable and fast and hat and have easy [TS]

  simple controls you can like use without [TS]

  looking at stuff like that that's what [TS]

  progear is and i just realized that I [TS]

  just love pro cameras and at the sony in [TS]

  in some ways isn't a pro camera in the [TS]

  ways that i am considering here [TS]

  not always of course and certainly [TS]

  technically it is shockingly good like [TS]

  in in the picture quality that you get [TS]

  out of it and the optical quality that [TS]

  you get from the amazing sony fe lenses [TS]

  is also fantastic but i think i might [TS]

  switch back to slrs because here's what [TS]

  happened in the meantime cannon released [TS]

  the 5d Mark four and the 5d Mark so that [TS]

  the main problems I have with canon [TS]

  before that one of the one of the [TS]

  reasons of them what they wanted to jump [TS]

  to sewing to be in the in the first [TS]

  place [TS]

  cannon was falling way behind on their [TS]

  sensor technology their sensors were [TS]

  really not competitive with the amount [TS]

  of noise at high iso levels in low light [TS]

  and they were really not competitive in [TS]

  dynamic range [TS]

  dynamic range [TS]

  and like things like the amount of [TS]

  detail that you can recover in shadows [TS]

  of a picture [TS]

  basically what happened with the 5d mark [TS]

  for they didn't become class-leading in [TS]

  those areas but they got very close [TS]

  sony and and therefore nikon cameras are [TS]

  also used sony sensors they are still [TS]

  ahead in high iso noise levels and [TS]

  dynamic range and resolution in some [TS]

  levels but the the new canon 5d mark for [TS]

  came very close to these levels and in [TS]

  my opinion in most in most ways probably [TS]

  close enough it also has a fast [TS]

  autofocus system it hasn't same battery [TS]

  life it has pro controls pro durability [TS]

  it is giant heavy but i want one so tips [TS]

  getting one [TS]

  it arrived about a half hour before the [TS]

  show started I i haven't had a chance to [TS]

  unbox it yet and try yet [TS]

  ask me again next week but basically tip [TS]

  is getting one and i'm going to play [TS]

  with it and if i end up liking it I [TS]

  might get one as well and then sells [TS]

  only here but we will see i did not see [TS]

  this coming [TS]

  neither did I until it was really like [TS]

  you know after that it really required [TS]

  me to have the sony for long enough to [TS]

  get to know its flaws and then to to [TS]

  have the canon again in my hands and to [TS]

  see just how incredibly awesome a [TS]

  program SLR is when you haven't used one [TS]

  for a while and in the ways that the [TS]

  sony annoys me and it is giant I mean no [TS]

  quit is still huge and it is heavy and [TS]

  the lenses are bigger and heavier but it [TS]

  is really compelling dancer expect [TS]

  especially in the chat asking basically [TS]

  asking what about nikon SLR the and I i [TS]

  rented a d750 about a year-and-a-half [TS]

  ago before decided to get this sony I [TS]

  was kind of figure like we know which of [TS]

  the various sony sensor cameras do I [TS]

  want [TS]

  and of course the d750 and d810 were on [TS]

  that list to try and the main reason why [TS]

  they chose against the nikon 1 was that [TS]

  the cannon controls just gonna get along [TS]

  with me a little bit better and if it's [TS]

  the same thing she also prefers the [TS]

  cannon control you know standard layout [TS]

  maybe it's just what we used to who [TS]

  knows probably right but [TS]

  but you know something there and [TS]

  secondarily that nikon had some some [TS]

  holes in the lens lineup that we liked [TS]

  and and cannon is doing really well with [TS]

  their legs i have recently like the day [TS]

  for a while they their lenses were you [TS]

  know that they've always been great and [TS]

  great pretty good right but they were [TS]

  getting a little bit long in the tooth [TS]

  and in certain ones and the last couple [TS]

  years they have released a handful of [TS]

  incredible new lenses one of which i [TS]

  ordered with this 52 mph or try the the [TS]

  new 35-millimeter f2 is and I mean if I [TS]

  ever want to go with the zoom again the [TS]

  new 24 72.8 is shockingly good if i want [TS]

  to go faster on 35 eventually you know [TS]

  it's a giant heavy the 35 1.4 is [TS]

  shockingly good there there's a whole [TS]

  bunch of new pc modern cameras that are [TS]

  amazing the the cannon 40-millimeter [TS]

  pancake is incredibly small and light [TS]

  and short and incredibly good and [TS]

  costume was nothing I mean there's a lot [TS]

  here so nikon definitely has the the [TS]

  best sensors that are available in SL [TS]

  ours because there are so many sensors [TS]

  but I think cannon wins me over for [TS]

  lenses and control layout and because [TS]

  the cannon sensor is now closed in the [TS]

  qualities that the matter to me that [TS]

  that's kind of what's keeping me here [TS]

  so tell me again why you're not really [TS]