The Accidental Tech Podcast

196: Roasting Your Own Beans


  anything we talked you don't talk [TS]

  politics for a while oh my god John [TS]

  siracusa tell me about your 4k display [TS]

  or displays if you please [TS]

  yeah this is not really related to the [TS]

  mac pro and apples getting out of this [TS]

  play business and all that business but [TS]

  it's strangely connected so I've got the [TS]

  got a ps4 pro now and one of the [TS]

  features of the ps4 pro is that it [TS]

  theoretically supports 4k four games [TS]

  four games that are updated to support [TS]

  in that actually do support it and I [TS]

  figure since i am keeping my all ps4 and [TS]

  they have a game are with it as well I [TS]

  needed a new monitor for the new one [TS]

  because neither one of these is gonna be [TS]

  hooked up to my TV for display burn-in [TS]

  reasons so when I was going to get new [TS]

  monitor think I get a 4k one because hey [TS]

  this the playstation 4 pro is supposed [TS]

  to be all you know for Campbell so [TS]

  that's what i should do it so I shopped [TS]

  around for 4k monitor that support HDR [TS]

  which is another feature of the ps4 pro [TS]

  actually maybe they packed back part of [TS]

  that to the beautiful psy remember [TS]

  anyway apparently it's impossible to [TS]

  find an HDR capable 4k computer monitor [TS]

  you can find TVs obviously but I wasn't [TS]

  looking for TV and and/or and also the [TS]

  size inflation of tvs that happened [TS]

  maybe three years ago four years ago [TS]

  where any decent TV is now I get at [TS]

  least 55 inches you I'm fearing the day [TS]

  that someday you won't be able to get [TS]

  one less than 65 inches like the minimum [TS]

  size for a decent TV is gonna have to [TS]

  move you get you can buy yourself [TS]

  can I get a 27 inch 4k TV with HDR the [TS]

  answer is no no you can't you want a [TS]

  55-inch got one of those for you anyway [TS]

  no HDR but he didn't get 4k so I shopped [TS]

  around a little bit i hate doing this [TS]

  cuz I don't like a million different [TS]

  products and then the in the non-apple [TS]

  world so much selection is overwhelming [TS]

  ended up getting a viewsonic great [TS]

  programs XG 2704 k display which is [TS]

  really nice especially like the the [TS]

  stand it came with his like [TS]

  height-adjustable was very sturdy get [TS]

  the water itself is a little chunky and [TS]

  a little bit gamer looking like [TS]

  jessica is black with like a red stripe [TS]

  and he's silly my wasn't word this is [TS]

  not only expensive but your whining [TS]

  about the LG display and the way that [TS]

  looks and this has freakin red trim on [TS]

  it are you serious John Syracuse's the [TS]

  racing stripes that make it go faster [TS]

  man this is not my mac obviously with [TS]

  playstation 4 have you seen with the [TS]

  playstation 4 itself looks like this is [TS]

  hitting don't care this is truly [TS]

  terrible call it the LG ultra fine is it [TS]

  is not a pretty monitor I'm not trying [TS]

  to say it's pretty but it's positively [TS]

  understated compared to this atrocity [TS]

  and does not that I mean if you look at [TS]

  it it's basically just completely black [TS]

  around the display and all you can see [TS]

  when you're sitting in front of it is [TS]

  the two little red side things [TS]

  understand and you can't even see the [TS]

  red stripe on the vertical thing because [TS]

  it gets covered up i have a monitor [TS]

  anyway that's what I got all and it was [TS]

  alright all of these pc gaming monitors [TS]

  have been like on screen you know [TS]

  adjustments on the device itself that [TS]

  had nothing to do with things connected [TS]

  to it so on the device itself you can [TS]

  adjust like brightness and contrast but [TS]

  also a million other settings some of [TS]

  which are strange through every way you [TS]

  can imagine to be like the worst [TS]

  on-screen controls you know you know [TS]

  what they put the grainy sort of [TS]

  bitmapped little menu thing and only [TS]

  have like a the viewsonic has like a [TS]

  one-in-two button like the one brings up [TS]

  the menu the two goes into it and [TS]

  there's up and down arrows so bad it's [TS]

  terrible interfaces it's kinda like [TS]

  going back in time to like when [TS]

  televisions first got on screen displays [TS]

  OSD they call them on-screen display [TS]

  which doesn't really mean that stands [TS]

  for on screens but anyway I believe [TS]

  that's right it doesn't make it on where [TS]

  else with the display be on screen [TS]

  display and this is very i'm still [TS]

  looking this monitor i mean like i [TS]

  should point out like I like many [TS]

  tastefully designed pc monitors I like [TS]

  viewsonic and you so i have owned [TS]

  multiple viewsonic monitors they are [TS]

  really good usually I like red even read [TS]

  is one of my favorite colors for things [TS]

  to be in even though Trump ruined [TS]

  red-hats forever but I look at this [TS]

  monitor and i cannot even imagine buying [TS]

  this thing and having this on my desk I [TS]

  could not agree more you should look at [TS]

  just look at the monitor part of it like [TS]

  that the stand but just the [TS]

  monitor from the front it is literally a [TS]

  matte black rectangle with the word you [TS]

  sonic on the bottom like that's pretty [TS]

  much as plain as you can get [TS]

  well if but you you will know that I and [TS]

  if you're not seeing the red stripe on [TS]

  the back your monitor is probably too [TS]

  low [TS]

  well i mean i guess you can see a little [TS]

  tiny bit of it but you don't notice it [TS]

  and then like the stand among stands you [TS]

  don't know how how deep this thing goes [TS]

  go look at some of the stands of other [TS]

  pc and gaming monitor just do do me a [TS]

  favor do me a favor get get up get her [TS]

  face arm and have that hold this up and [TS]

  today I know I'm getting to that [TS]

  I'm getting to the beasts are ok I'll [TS]

  get that is it visa right visa at all [TS]

  these lives [TS]

  I'm gonna save ISA and it's definitely a [TS]

  move file and you mispronounced [TS]

  everything so I don't understand how you [TS]

  besmirch the the 5k monitor as an [TS]

  atrocity that you would never be able to [TS]

  use ever and then you buy this piece of [TS]

  garbage [TS]

  how do you think do you think I would [TS]

  never take this to my Mac what [TS]

  difference does it make oh it makes a [TS]

  difference i would never connect this [TS]

  time academia to be on the same desk is [TS]

  my mac i love you have lower standards [TS]

  for the other like the pc but maybe we [TS]

  won't show you before and not only [TS]

  before i do i don't i don't disagree but [TS]

  you really have no choice like you have [TS]

  to happen [TS]

  I understand me but you have no choice [TS]

  if there is no like nice tasteful pc [TS]

  hardware for the most part even even [TS]

  things like the HP spectre are really [TS]

  you know I see they're putting in an [TS]

  effort but it's not [TS]

  not to my taste anyway let me continue [TS]

  my story here so i got this thing and [TS]

  the adjustments on over are very strange [TS]

  i'm trying to get it sort of calibrated [TS]

  to something reasonable but they have [TS]

  all sorts of settings most of which fly [TS]

  in the face of my television snob [TS]

  sensibilities because the television you [TS]

  want to adjust like you trying that [TS]

  there is a goal there is like you can [TS]

  get reference images and say it should [TS]

  look like this you know because it [TS]

  television content is produced with the [TS]

  expectation that here is the color range [TS]

  of your display here is the the the [TS]

  brightness Behavior all sorts of other [TS]

  things like that whereas for a gaming [TS]

  monitor specifically games are not [TS]

  produced with any sort of reference [TS]

  viewing environment right because there [TS]

  is no real standard for that [TS]

  things are produced I don't know how [TS]

  they decide like how dr. the textures be [TS]

  and you know what color range we use I'd [TS]

  I really don't know what they use but i [TS]

  can tell you that everybody's pc [TS]

  monitors are not calibrated like [TS]

  quote-unquote correctly and are all over [TS]

  the map and there is a setting that [TS]

  seems to be pervasive on all pc monitor [TS]

  especially with the game bet they call [TS]

  black stabilization have you ever even [TS]

  heard of that know what why why is black [TS]

  changing yeah so in games a lot of games [TS]

  are made where they will be dark [TS]

  sections were you like in a cave or [TS]

  something but if you're playing a game [TS]

  especially a competitive game you don't [TS]

  actually want to quote unquote [TS]

  faithfully reproduced the blacks because [TS]

  you won't be able to see anything is it [TS]

  is an advantage for you instead to have [TS]

  the monitor so that kind of i'm assuming [TS]

  assuming it's like squashing everything [TS]

  down psycho i can see the subtle [TS]

  difference between a hundred percent [TS]

  black and ninety-nine percent black [TS]

  ninety-eight percent black and this cave [TS]

  is important for me to see that so i can [TS]

  pick out the edges of the cave walls [TS]

  find where the enemies are whatever like [TS]

  it [TS]

  have you ever seen anyone do that [TS]

  competitive first-person shooters in pc [TS]

  gaming they're not trying to get visual [TS]

  fidelity as if it's a movie or [TS]

  television show what they're trying to [TS]

  do is can I see everything clearly [TS]

  so a lot of the monitors have settings [TS]

  that make the picture worse like by [TS]

  reducing the the dynamic range and [TS]

  making areas that would be black less [TS]

  black which looks looks bad it's like a [TS]

  bad black level in your TV and also all [TS]

  the settings that are involved like [TS]

  response time because that's the big [TS]

  thing you a lot of gamers use TN panels [TS]

  which nobody uses anymore because they [TS]

  look terrible the viewing angles are [TS]

  terrible but they have better response [TS]

  time I've never gone that far i couldn't [TS]

  get a tee and display because that's [TS]

  like that means like going back to the [TS]

  macbook air like no I mean you aren't an [TS]

  animal right [TS]

  so again I got an IPS display which does [TS]

  it has a 25 times response time but even [TS]

  on these displays a way you can change [TS]

  the response time to be as good as it [TS]

  can be doing what I assume is [TS]

  sacrificing sacrificing visual quality [TS]

  I'm trying to strike the right balance [TS]

  between don't look terrible monitor but [TS]

  also i do feel there's a benefit to not [TS]

  having everything be black when i'm [TS]

  doing the raid and one of the raids in [TS]

  destiny [TS]

  a lot of dark areas and I'm doing some [TS]

  jumping puzzle in the dark [TS]

  try to do something i like you know I do [TS]

  have it adjusted quote-unquote wrong so [TS]

  i can so the games play better [TS]

  um so anyway I had a lot of trouble [TS]

  trying to get the viewsonic set up that [TS]

  way but the real problem was that for a [TS]

  while my playstation 4 pro did not show [TS]

  me a 4k output option that would just [TS]

  output 1080p I'm like well that's not [TS]

  what i want to i need you to output for [TS]

  k so i did a bunch of googling the [TS]

  PlayStation says you know count-out [TS]

  porque and it would say hdcp 2.2 not [TS]

  available [TS]

  I don't know if you guys are familiar [TS]

  with hdcp but it's another one of those [TS]

  stupid things that make you mine Morris [TS]

  for no good reason [TS]

  m and this monitor probably predates [TS]

  hdcp 2.2 only sports like I figure with [TS]

  the earlier standard is maybe 1.1 thru [TS]

  1.4 I don't know [TS]

  anyway I had had a quote-unquote hdmi [TS]

  2.0 cable and everything it was good but [TS]

  it didn't work with it and did some [TS]

  googling you find people asking [TS]

  viewsonic on Twitter hey does this [TS]

  monitor support hdcp 2.2 they sorry no [TS]

  oh my god only have to return this thing [TS]

  get over monitor now it turns out you [TS]

  can get it two games to display 4k on [TS]

  this it has a bunch of hdmi ports on the [TS]

  back and like so many televisions and [TS]

  monitors before only one of the ports is [TS]

  like the good one [TS]

  so once i move the cable to the good [TS]

  part the one and only good part which [TS]

  isn't labeled with anything that says [TS]

  hey this is the only one that does hdmi [TS]

  2.0 hey this is the only one that this [TS]

  4k but turns out there's only one that [TS]

  does it [TS]

  so I could display games in 4k on this [TS]

  but I still wanted to get into the [TS]

  monitor because this one still doesn't [TS]

  support HD people to point to which [TS]

  probably isn't a factor of playing games [TS]

  but it doesn't mean like Netflix and [TS]

  other stuff like that they want to [TS]

  display video content won't do it on 4k [TS]

  because it doesn't do the stupid [TS]

  intellectual property copy-protection [TS]

  dance just the right way for stupid [TS]

  reasons so I return this one and grand [TS]

  Marco fashion although this is just [TS]

  plain all my fault of like I didn't I [TS]

  didn't even think to look for hdcp 2.2 [TS]

  Mike actually a gaming monitor this is [TS]

  one of those has hdmi input i should be [TS]

  good to go but and by the way I don't [TS]

  usually return things usually i sell [TS]

  them I thought about selling this is [TS]

  because like the stupid restocking fee [TS]

  on this was going to be a lot of money [TS]

  online well i can sell it for more than [TS]

  the restocking fee then there's [TS]

  restocking fee i'll return for sure [TS]

  it's just an issue of like I don't want [TS]

  to like like I feel bad returning things [TS]

  when I know someone else is gonna be [TS]

  even the cost but if I'm definitely [TS]

  eating the cost then i won't feel bad [TS]

  about that anymore [TS]

  yeah I was okay if i sold it to someone [TS]

  else like a brand new monitor that it [TS]

  like barely even touched the pic the [TS]

  little plastic films were stolen [TS]

  thinking of the PLA plastic stuff that [TS]

  protects yeah that was the one that's a [TS]

  brand-new you but if I could have sold [TS]

  it for somebody for like maybe eighty [TS]

  dollars less than i paid for it then I [TS]

  still want to come out ahead anyway so I [TS]

  returned that one and in its place [TS]

  I got done and LG 4k display I don't [TS]

  have an LG 5k display I now have an LG [TS]

  4k display doesn't have that weird [TS]

  little head with the camera in it it is [TS]

  not a fivehead take a look at it [TS]

  hey what model is it the ridiculous i [TS]

  just put the blanket ronson it is not a [TS]

  fivehead it is more tame looking well [TS]

  there's no edge there is it's just it's [TS]

  just it's very thin but that it's you [TS]

  know so you notice this one is smaller [TS]

  overall it comes in a very small boxes [TS]

  case he noted the frame around it is [TS]

  very small the panel is probably the [TS]

  same panel that's in like every LG 27 [TS]

  inch 4k display that you can get right [TS]

  now because they sell a whole bunch of [TS]

  them with different letter suffixes on [TS]

  them the little stand that it's on is [TS]

  where the view sidekicks it's but [TS]

  because the viewsonic stand was big [TS]

  chunky height-adjustable and red and [TS]

  stable right and this monitor if you [TS]

  take your finger and put it into the [TS]

  corner and tap upwards the monitor [TS]

  baubles this little bobble head like [TS]

  it's one of those little hula dolls you [TS]

  put on dashboard or bobblehead figures [TS]

  right it is the worst design standard [TS]

  just connect with two screws that you're [TS]

  screwing yourself to this little tight [TS]

  you know thing in the back of it [TS]

  terrible stand its ugly too i think that [TS]

  little semicircle thing is ugly [TS]

  it takes up more room on your desk with [TS]

  wise and then that square thing that the [TS]

  viewsonic know there's no red stripe but [TS]

  it doesn't perform adequately the [TS]

  function of keeping the monitor still so [TS]

  if I bump my desk with my neon playing I [TS]

  gotta watch stupid bobblehead bobble in [TS]

  front of me now it does have a vesa [TS]

  mount on the back and so I said all [TS]

  right well whatever who cares about that [TS]

  stand it's got you know [TS]

  the hundred millimeter recent on the [TS]

  back of the thing all i have to do is [TS]

  find a sturdy vesa mount get rid of that [TS]

  stupid foot and it used that but I don't [TS]

  want an arm is that I want to clamp it [TS]

  to my desk because I've glass on top of [TS]

  my desk and I want to clamp onto my desk [TS]

  isn't that you know and I just don't [TS]

  want armed too much stuff going on back [TS]

  there just want to stand and every [TS]

  single visa stand i could find was [TS]

  uglier than this foot [TS]

  yeah you're not gonna not gonna have a [TS]

  good time there they're terrible like [TS]

  the metal ones look like giant metal [TS]

  horseshoes the plastic ones look just as [TS]

  bad as this so I'm just gonna I'm just [TS]

  you know not hitting my desk and being [TS]

  careful and by the way the on-screen [TS]

  controls those ones are better than the [TS]

  viewsonic but still pretty grim this one [TS]

  has a tiny little joystick under the [TS]

  middle that you move around [TS]

  it's like kind of like a 5-way switch [TS]

  you know you got up down left right and [TS]

  press in but what boy what a terrible [TS]

  interface and because it's the bottom [TS]

  and you're wiggling a joystick [TS]

  that'sthat's like pointing down but [TS]

  you're trying to move controls on the [TS]

  screen that are going you know a [TS]

  different plane up down left and right [TS]

  and anyway i think this one looks a [TS]

  little bit better the view sonics panel [TS]

  quality wise or maybe it's just that I'm [TS]

  having had more time to tweak it because [TS]

  the adjustments are not so painful to [TS]

  use in the menu but has all the same [TS]

  crap including your response time [TS]

  adjustment in which the value that you [TS]

  want is high i don't want high response [TS]

  time and but yet because of the way they [TS]

  named these features and probably the [TS]

  decor translation of the options i have [TS]

  to look at the manual and say which one [TS]

  do I want for the thing with the [TS]

  response time numbers a lower number of [TS]

  milliseconds so high that makes sense [TS]

  why would you ever want to be slower i [TS]

  was i think it decreases uh you know the [TS]

  the quality of the display decreases the [TS]

  added something i'm assuming the color [TS]

  quality or something like it it's doing [TS]

  less processing on the display and [TS]

  probably you know it's it's trying to [TS]

  not put as much computation between the [TS]

  signal and the screen [TS]

  same thing with is like a sharpness [TS]

  thing that apply a sharpness filter and [TS]

  especially when playing games in 1080 [TS]

  like destiny is still just 1080 sharpen [TS]

  filter does help make the text look [TS]

  better but it adds processing overhead [TS]

  so if you really want the best response [TS]

  time i'm assuming that the best option [TS]

  is to turn the sharpest all the way down [TS]

  which is what I've done anyway i was [TS]

  able to adjust this to get a look [TS]

  little bit better to my eyes then the [TS]

  viewsonic and now i'm just patiently [TS]

  waiting for 4k games to come up so i do [TS]

  not have this exact same honor I was [TS]

  mistaken for a couple different reasons [TS]

  1i i'm pretty sure two different models [TS]

  so you got the ud 68 hyphen p [TS]

  I got the ud 58 hyphen be and that's the [TS]

  key bozell on mine is considerably [TS]

  larger than the bozell on yours also you [TS]

  chose poorly [TS]

  if this is ever going to get connected [TS]

  to a computer if you're if you're ever [TS]

  going to connect to computer 4k is not [TS]

  enough DPI for 27 inches [TS]

  you should have gotten 5k yeah i'm not [TS]

  american gangster computer computer [TS]

  connected to my gaming pc well you could [TS]

  connected to your piece of garbage mac [TS]

  in theory and then actually have a [TS]

  random act no I would this also is never [TS]

  going to be connected to a mac i love [TS]

  that all this trouble you're going [TS]

  through I mean this is all like this [TS]

  crazy stuff you're going through and [TS]

  having this whole separate desk setup [TS]

  that of course this one going to your [TS]

  mac and everything and having this pc [TS]

  monitor all this and yet you won't build [TS]

  a gaming pc like you're basically doing [TS]

  equally you're putting in all the effort [TS]

  that it would take to have a game no CA [TS]

  the PlayStation is way less effort than [TS]

  a gaming pc way less than all I mean [TS]

  once you get into all this crazy monitor [TS]

  twiddling you're doing I mean really [TS]

  like you might like why is there not a [TS]

  gaming pc on this second second to your [TS]

  desk that you have the game bc would not [TS]

  do it there's no destiny for pc yellow [TS]

  destiny to maybe coming to pc fans [TS]

  anyway there's no destiny for bc us [TS]

  guardian for pc there's no uncharted 4 [TS]

  BC that like I need to have this this is [TS]

  the thing that I need their gaming pc [TS]

  does not replace this in any possible [TS]

  especially since the only thing I do [TS]

  with my console players play like a [TS]

  handful of games that are essentially [TS]

  console exclusives even on my nintendo [TS]

  consoles there's no gaming pc is going [TS]

  to play an XL the game right that's what [TS]

  i buy these things for so i would have [TS]

  to have a gaming pc in addition to this [TS]

  and there's no report and it's way more [TS]

  headache honest you know I didn't mind [TS]

  the 4k think i was excited to get a 4k [TS]

  monitor and play games that resolution i [TS]

  do a few games that have [TS]

  that had updates that came out which [TS]

  really just makes things a little bit [TS]

  sharper because i like they redid all [TS]

  the textures for the most part I think [TS]

  over watches for can now I haven't [TS]

  looked at yet but anyway there's a bunch [TS]

  of games there and having been a the [TS]

  playstation vr yet but i'm considering [TS]

  getting that but now i'm i'm pretty [TS]

  happy with the setup [TS]

  oh my mom about the ps4 probe the only [TS]

  complaint I have about it and I realize [TS]

  you probably just complain to sony and [TS]

  get this fixed the one controller that [TS]

  the ps4 pro came with the left analog [TS]

  stick if you look at it like from the [TS]

  side is tilted in the neutral position [TS]

  ever so slightly and then I'm gonna have [TS]

  any of that so i'm using my old i'm [TS]

  using my old girl shocked because they [TS]

  didn't change the controller anything [TS]

  has changed like the buttons are now [TS]

  like ugly gray instead of a black and [TS]

  thick maybe triggers might be a little [TS]

  bit better anyway I'm gonna complain to [TS]

  Sony's look at this thing out of the box [TS]

  I've never touched it [TS]

  the in the in the neutral position all [TS]

  these analog sticks should be straight [TS]

  up and down this one is tilted to give [TS]

  me a new thing I'm sure Sony will be [TS]

  happy to do that for me [TS]

  oh I'm sure on the one side John I truly [TS]

  genuinely admire how perceptive you are [TS]

  and how you can notice these little [TS]

  things [TS]

  oh you would notice it's not like oh [TS]

  this is obscured only notice that [TS]

  they're like a out of level or a plumb [TS]

  bob you've noticed with your eyeballs it [TS]

  is not not subtle but with that said I [TS]

  am so glad that i am at worst mildly [TS]

  critical and hypercritical pqr this [TS]

  little conversation i'm sitting here [TS]

  thinking thank God [TS]

  this is one area I don't really care [TS]

  about like I don't care about gaming [TS]

  really at all i'd like to but i don't i [TS]

  barely care about tvs i barely care [TS]

  about TV adjustments in picture quality [TS]

  judgments and everything I am just I I [TS]

  certainly don't care about analog sticks [TS]

  being slightly tilted from neutral i am [TS]

  just so happy that I'd like there's so [TS]

  many areas that I care way too much [TS]

  about at least here's one that I don't [TS]

  yep i'm not i'm not carving my own [TS]

  analog sticks out of plastic that be the [TS]

  equivalent of you roasting your own [TS]

  beans a person remains is really not [TS]

  that hard and it's really good i know [TS]

  but like it [TS]

  it is one thing to be picky about the [TS]

  things that you buy but at a certain [TS]

  point you said there's nothing I can buy [TS]

  I must I must make it myself and that [TS]

  would be going to be carving my own [TS]

  controllers and I got a controller [TS]

  assembly kit and like making my own [TS]

  analog sticks in like assembling [TS]

  different pieces you try to find good [TS]

  coffee on this half of the county i [TS]

  guarantee you can't find it [TS]

  there's no good control is either but I [TS]

  just accept what they only ones i just [TS]

  wanted to be like you know correct as a [TS]

  when it comes out-of-the-box everything [TS]

  should be straight if you could make [TS]

  your imperfect controller for five [TS]

  dollars in 20 minutes when you do it it [TS]

  and then i have to drink it and it's [TS]

  gone i gotta do it all over again and [TS]

  the analogy is breaking down all right [TS]

  so anyway um this this monitor that you [TS]

  bought John is not HDR is that correct [TS]

  now it's not it's not one of the because [TS]

  that's why you bought that god-awful red [TS]

  racing stripe to be Sonic was to get are [TS]

  none of them are no you can't get as [TS]

  performers are there there are none for [TS]

  sale there is no there is no gaming [TS]

  monitor like that you can get a TV with [TS]

  HD are you get a 4k TV with hdmi port [TS]

  for ps4 pro but as far as I was able to [TS]

  determine there is no monitor computer [TS]

  monitor that you can buy as in the thing [TS]

  that's 27 inches not 55 you put a desk [TS]

  as a CR support this episode is brought [TS]

  to you by Squarespace start building [TS]

  your website today at [TS]

  enter offer code ATP at checkout to get [TS]

  ten percent off [TS]

  Squarespace sites look amazingly look [TS]

  professionally designed regardless of [TS]

  your skill level and you don't have to [TS]

  code although if you want to you can [TS]

  jump in there and edit the code you can [TS]

  do things like inject JavaScript or [TS]

  inject your own CSS move around the [TS]

  blocks to customize your theme but if [TS]

  you don't want to you don't have to you [TS]

  can drag and drop things if you want to [TS]

  you can just change colors and stuff or [TS]

  you can change nothing [TS]

  it's totally up to you with squarespace [TS]

  with their intuitive easy-to-use tools [TS]

  for building websites it is such a huge [TS]

  difference from the way we used to build [TS]

  websites it is so much easier today with [TS]

  squarespace you've got to check it out [TS]

  if you're making this site for yourself [TS]

  or even better if you're making a site [TS]

  for somebody else if you don Squarespace [TS]

  they support it [TS]

  you don't have to be involved it's [TS]

  amazing [TS]

  so if you're making up for somebody else [TS]

  or if you just want to save time [TS]

  yourself which is usually the right move [TS]

  because you know what [TS]

  these days the worst use of your time is [TS]

  updating a website CMS you need to [TS]

  outsource that to squarespace whether [TS]

  you're making the site for yourself or [TS]

  somebody else let them handle that [TS]

  so you couldn't do your project you can [TS]

  do you can show your photos you can make [TS]

  your store you can make your portfolio [TS]

  you can make a blog website for your [TS]

  business or anything else you can do [TS]

  everything you need to do with [TS]

  squarespace so check out today to [TS]

  squarespace com start free trial when [TS]

  you decide to sign up but you probably [TS]

  will because amazing use offer code ATP [TS]

  to get ten percent off your purchase [TS]

  things like the squarespace for [TS]

  sponsoring our show [TS]

  ah can you guys see the difference [TS]

  between wide color and not because maybe [TS]

  I've just never really had a good [TS]

  example photo and like two screens next [TS]

  to each other but briefly before I gave [TS]

  up my success when I have but I did have [TS]

  my seven i held the two of them [TS]

  side-by-side and damned if I could tell [TS]

  the difference not office in my eyes are [TS]

  crappy which they unequivocally are if I [TS]

  just don't appreciate it which is [TS]

  possible or it did is it just not that [TS]

  big a deal if you're not like a designer [TS]

  like Marco for example do you are you [TS]

  able to tell the difference when you [TS]

  just look at arbitrary photo on a wide [TS]

  color display vs a not white color [TS]

  display not yet i suspect as wide color [TS]

  displays become what I'm looking at [TS]

  every day is like right now I do most of [TS]

  my computing on a 2014 5 k iMac which [TS]

  does not have the the high color display [TS]

  and so I now have it on my phone and my [TS]

  ipad but really i'm doing almost all of [TS]

  my you know looking at things on my imac [TS]

  but it's not it's not doesn't matter [TS]

  where you look at them it's the source [TS]

  material so Casey if you have something [TS]

  you look at if you look the same picture [TS]

  that you took in a pre wide color world [TS]

  of course is gonna look the same because [TS]

  there's no white color information in it [TS]

  you have to take the picture with a [TS]

  device capable of capturing that and [TS]

  then look at that same picture 1 unlike [TS]

  your iphone 7 that you took it on the [TS]

  took a white color picture and the other [TS]

  one that I thought that's what I did but [TS]

  but but truth be told it was right when [TS]

  i first got the seven [TS]

  I wouldn't put it past needed to [TS]

  accidentally have taken like an old [TS]

  picture [TS]

  and so I don't see anything but and I've [TS]

  seen like the sample images like where [TS]

  there's a like a big red blob and [TS]

  there's an are hidden in there that you [TS]

  wouldn't see unless its wide color you [TS]

  don't stuff like that but nevertheless [TS]

  on a regular picture I've not noticed [TS]

  the difference and as a corollary [TS]

  question is is my two-year-old micro [TS]

  four-thirds I presume that's not wide [TS]

  colors that fair to say most cameras [TS]

  have well most cameras don't have this [TS]

  option middle and high end cameras often [TS]

  will have an option to save the colors [TS]

  in adobe RGB maybe instead of like srgb [TS]

  but as far I haven't looked too much [TS]

  into this as far as i know that i think [TS]

  the conversion happens after raw anyway [TS]

  so you might be able to fix this with [TS]

  just a different Rock conversion process [TS]

  and John do you know about this i was [TS]

  gonna say what you said like there are [TS]

  other color profiles that are not called [TS]

  p3 that nevertheless have a larger range [TS]

  than srgb ya kiddo BRB he's one of them [TS]

  yeah I don't know which what the little [TS]

  envelopes looks like an all of them but [TS]

  and especially if you capture all I [TS]

  Kevin that's all the information you're [TS]

  going to get and if you can pull myself [TS]

  out of it i don't know but yeah I would [TS]

  like your best source for images with [TS]

  white color is your iphone 7 because [TS]

  it's you know but it's all connected up [TS]

  and then there if you actually look like [TS]

  cranberries page where he has a bunch of [TS]

  sample images if you really can't tell [TS]

  the difference between the sample images [TS]

  because they're made to like emphasize [TS]

  the areas where humans can perceive the [TS]

  p3 color difference more but those [TS]

  really emphasize those are kind of like [TS]

  artificial but i have seen some other [TS]

  pictures where it's like just a picture [TS]

  of like a park like grass in a tree and [TS]

  some sky and if you see them [TS]

  side-by-side like I do on my iPad pro [TS]

  and i go to that page like all right i [TS]

  mean it's not doesn't jump out at you [TS]

  but if you look you're like like is this [TS]

  really the same picture it's like yes [TS]

  this is literally the same picture [TS]

  because one is srgb and the other one is [TS]

  showing the four white color in the full [TS]

  what color one that it's it's almost [TS]

  like contrast is turned down the other [TS]

  one like there's not like the Greens [TS]

  don't look as green like most you know [TS]

  on the grass type situation like all [TS]

  that tree looks a little bit more past [TS]

  le and washed out now [TS]

  not a lot but you have to see them [TS]

  side-by-side to see it i don't think i [TS]

  could pick one out alone but if you [TS]

  literally show me the same picture and [TS]

  why [TS]

  not why'd you go all the wide looks a [TS]

  little better that's about it ok ok so [TS]

  I'm not entirely crazy then because i'm [TS]

  looking at this link on WebKit will put [TS]

  in the show notes and they have like [TS]

  this is what i was thinking of the [TS]

  WebKit logo which is like this big red [TS]

  blob that in srgb you don't see the logo [TS]

  and then if you go into p3 you can see [TS]

  the logo well if you scroll down on that [TS]

  same page they have yellow flower and if [TS]

  you click with this is like what you're [TS]

  saying John if you click between the [TS]

  sRGB only and the p3 unequivocally I can [TS]

  tell that the p3 is much more vivid and [TS]

  looks more real [TS]

  but if i were to look at either of these [TS]

  images like you said John without the [TS]

  other side by side [TS]

  unlike say a Retina screen versus a non [TS]

  retina screen were just words just [TS]

  unbelievably obvious with these i don't [TS]

  think i would notice the difference [TS]

  unless they're side by side [TS]

  I mean that's how I'm with most of these [TS]

  to it you know that like the example [TS]

  things if I look at it like I'm ipad pro [TS]

  which is my current biggest mp3 screen [TS]

  it the these pictures look great Shirley [TS]

  like that the big orange Sun sets like [TS]

  yet they do look a little more saturated [TS]

  in in those like orangie reddish tones [TS]

  but you can look at a non retina screen [TS]

  or a non-retina image our asset on a [TS]

  webpage on retina screen and you can [TS]

  tell that difference immediately [TS]

  the very first thing I see that is [TS]

  non-retina if you after your custom [TS]

  retina you notice that immediately [TS]

  whereas if I am scrolling through web [TS]

  page and I see a picture of an orange [TS]

  sunset that is not p3 after used to p3 i [TS]

  don't think i will notice because it [TS]

  could just look like it wasn't as [TS]

  saturated a picture as it could have [TS]

  been and so it's not you know it's a way [TS]

  smaller advance for everyday casual [TS]

  observing and for most people it's nice [TS]

  to have i'm glad they're doing it and [TS]

  it's especially nice you know if you [TS]

  actually shoot a lot of pictures of [TS]

  orange Sun sets and things but it's it's [TS]

  a very you know in in general use it's [TS]

  the kind of thing you can very easily [TS]

  forget that you even have ok that was my [TS]

  experience as well when I was curious [TS]

  because I feel like maybe it's just [TS]

  because I follow people like Hockenberry [TS]

  and Mark Edwards and and that you know [TS]

  they're really revved up about it but to [TS]

  me I was like man I barely see the [TS]

  difference and I'm glad to hear that [TS]

  that's not necessarily unusual the two [TS]

  more things on the monitors first Casey [TS]

  when you get back [TS]

  the work you should tap the underside of [TS]

  one of the corners your monitor and see [TS]

  if you got a bobblehead to because I [TS]

  think you owe I definitely do [TS]

  oh yeah but it's like what a bad job [TS]

  like the stand as one simple function [TS]

  just put the monitor up off the desk off [TS]

  the ground and keep it still [TS]

  and it fails that thing not the other [TS]

  thing is the one thing even though the [TS]

  LG monitors you know it's not much to it [TS]

  like it is just black everywhere it's [TS]

  not mad it's not shiny doesn't have much [TS]

  of a frame around it is not a fivehead [TS]

  the part of the bottom is the biggest [TS]

  part so like its proportions that the LG [TS]

  logo is small and subtle but if you go [TS]

  to that Amazon page from my thing and do [TS]

  the little do me thing you can you zoom [TS]

  in and see the LG logo right move over [TS]

  to the right from the LG logo what do [TS]

  you see there lurking in the corner [TS]

  because this is a pc products just got [TS]

  to be ugly in some stupid way what do [TS]

  you see there this stupid energy star [TS]

  and it's small it's not a big energy [TS]

  star badge and it's black and white like [TS]

  it's not colored and weird but like the [TS]

  whole front of this thing has nothing on [TS]

  it i will accept the LG logo is small [TS]

  and tasteful and centered why the hell [TS]

  is an NGO store and so I'm like I'm just [TS]

  going to peel that sticker off but it's [TS]

  one of those stickers we're gonna have [TS]

  to think on it for a while because it is [TS]

  clearly not one of the ones that comes [TS]

  off easy [TS]

  you know the ones that like made to come [TS]

  on like the metal one it's not metal [TS]

  it's not plastic like here's that is the [TS]

  math happened like I know I could get it [TS]

  off but after i get it off [TS]

  what's the left underneath the square [TS]

  where it used to be [TS]

  well that look worse than the sticker [TS]

  because the sticker for all its ugliness [TS]

  looks like a sticker right it's the [TS]

  Energy Star logo that peel it often is a [TS]

  bunch of like sticky crap or I damage [TS]

  the plastic underneath the business [TS]

  cheap plastic this is not an aluminum [TS]

  apple display or anything right [TS]

  if I damage it somehow or get sticky [TS]

  stuff in there that I can somehow can't [TS]

  get off with you know careful [TS]

  application of skin so soft on it which [TS]

  by the way that's a secret for all you [TS]

  out there if you get sticky crap from [TS]

  stickers on them [TS]

  one of the many things that will remove [TS]

  it i know there are many products but [TS]

  the one of the ones that I've used for [TS]

  years is Avon skin so soft which I think [TS]

  was supposed to be a thing that softens [TS]

  your skin [TS]

  the only thing i've ever used it for [TS]

  takeoff sticker scope and it's got a [TS]

  pleasanter oh my god why I i love the [TS]

  extent to which we will avoid talking [TS]

  about the microsoft surface to do [TS]

  no get there get there anyway energy [TS]

  star sticker uh it's you know it's got [TS]

  to be ugly in some way and i said i [TS]

  don't like that semi circular or stand [TS]

  on no no that was nice but it's not so [TS]

  that energy star sticker that on your [TS]

  monitors on the bottom right i have what [TS]

  appeared to be an identical one but if [TS]

  you look at the stand and you know how [TS]

  its kind of tilted at a sort of not a [TS]

  45-degree angle like a 30 degree angle [TS]

  maybe well mine was all the way on the [TS]

  left on that stand and I let it sit for [TS]

  a week or two before even noticed it and [TS]

  I was like all this crap in and you know [TS]

  what i did i immediately ripped it off [TS]

  because I don't worry about things like [TS]

  you do and there was no residue or if [TS]

  there's residue I like rub data with my [TS]

  thumb for a second that you don't know [TS]

  if there's residue you probably just [TS]

  that I don't even see them in the Amazon [TS]

  picture of your mother I don't see the [TS]

  energy star sticker anywhere I you're [TS]

  right i don't see it either but it was [TS]

  there for sure [TS]

  yeah so anyway I'm i might make a run at [TS]

  sticker eventually just rip it off John [TS]

  it's like a band-aid just rip it off [TS]

  yeah I all right speaking windows stuff [TS]

  we got a series of tweets from Jordan [TS]

  who is nerdy Oh phage on Twitter and he [TS]

  tweeted uh five things I'll read them in [TS]

  series he says I spent a week with a [TS]

  macbook pro escape after two solid [TS]

  decades of windows use I was of the [TS]

  opinion that Marcos on a batch dislike [TS]

  of Oh of the OS of windows was equal [TS]

  parts adoptive culture / fanboyism / [TS]

  certain showmanship [TS]

  I stand corrected in a little bit [TS]

  humbled the windows the windows path [TS]

  from neophyte power users shaped by red [TS]

  registry at its decoder rings and secret [TS]

  knocks which is arduous mac OS x [TS]

  comparison feels inviting friendly and [TS]

  intuitive like a late-night conversation [TS]

  at a dinner party with good friends so [TS]

  tldr this is still Jordan mac OS holy [TS]

  crap I get it [TS]

  transition costs will be very high but [TS]

  seriously considering it and this echoes [TS]

  my experience in 2008 of switching from [TS]

  windows 2 20 s 10 at the time there were [TS]

  two weeks where I doubted my life and [TS]

  thought I'd made a terrible awful [TS]

  horrible choice and then then I'd never [TS]

  look back [TS]

  I'm not saying that Jordans experience [TS]

  is true for everyone because now we're [TS]

  gonna have all the windows [TS]

  all just writing in telling us how [TS]

  Windows is good and we're a bunch of [TS]

  jerks and blah blah blah but they still [TS]

  really listen to us as some do because [TS]

  we still get emails i'm not saying that [TS]

  this is true for everyone i'm not saying [TS]

  windows isn't better in some way or [TS]

  another but I am saying is that we are [TS]

  not the only girl here not the only ones [TS]

  that seem to think that there's a better [TS]

  way so just thought i'd share those [TS]

  series of tweets from Jordan so thank [TS]

  you jordan for writing us uh we had an [TS]

  interesting conversation in slack Marco [TS]

  and I'd like to air agreements let's [TS]

  back up to circa january maybe december [TS]

  so almost a year ago now and the two of [TS]

  you but my recollection was that it was [TS]

  mostly Marco we're saying you know what [TS]

  Casey you should never put personal crap [TS]

  on your laptop on your work laptop you [TS]

  should really have a nice powerful [TS]

  machine for home use [TS]

  you probably shouldn't be ignoring Aaron [TS]

  and using your laptop while you're [TS]

  sitting next to her on the couch you [TS]

  know what you need you need my Mac I've [TS]

  tried the laptop dance Casey it's no [TS]

  good it's no good man get the imac think [TS]

  about that 27-inch beautiful at 5k [TS]

  display with white color blah blah blah [TS]

  i'm telling you it's the way to go [TS]

  this is there are some I've seen that [TS]

  picture with your summary already but go [TS]

  ahead but then fast forward to I don't [TS]

  know a few days ago when Marco is [TS]

  talking in slack that private place that [TS]

  we really shouldn't bring up publicly [TS]

  but here I am because I'm annoyed coach [TS]

  is talking into black and saying hmm you [TS]

  know what maybe I'll get a new macbook [TS]

  pro in a 5k display and i'll be back to [TS]

  a one machine man again and I won't even [TS]

  have to have a stupid desktop anymore [TS]

  mm that's not okay okay so here's what I [TS]

  said [TS]

  so basically looking looking at [TS]

  performance of everything and and [TS]

  figuring a a potential and maybe even [TS]

  likely future that does not include the [TS]

  mac pro existing and also includes [TS]

  standalone 5k retina displays that can [TS]

  plug into laptops that have [TS]

  not not matching but maybe ninety [TS]

  percent of the performance of imax or [TS]

  eighty percent of the performance of [TS]

  imax i always say the reason I by the 15 [TS]

  inch laptops is because when I'm [TS]

  traveling I either need almost nothing [TS]

  in which case doesn't matter what I [TS]

  haven't that left me there like you type [TS]

  emails faster more like browse Twitter [TS]

  or I'm doing serious work whether it's [TS]

  xcode or like lightroom photo it raw [TS]

  importing and stuff and editing either [TS]

  way like usually when i use a laptop [TS]

  during travel I i want a lot of screen [TS]

  space and I want a lot of horsepower [TS]

  I also now have an imac as my main [TS]

  computer and looking at the specs of [TS]

  these computers these days and we'll [TS]

  compare you know comparing the the new [TS]

  MacBook Pros with LG 5k display you know [TS]

  assuming it's good we don't actually [TS]

  know yet but it will soon as good as the [TS]

  probably is comparing that against the [TS]

  imac you know basically I am maintaining [TS]

  and upgrading and paying for two [TS]

  different computers with overall fairly [TS]

  similar hardware and fairly similar [TS]

  performance and so I thought you know [TS]

  what I probably should do but won't and [TS]

  I bolted won't but I said what I [TS]

  probably should do is stop having two [TS]

  similar respect max that I pay for and [TS]

  and maintain and everything or just have [TS]

  a case a top-of-the-line 15-inch macbook [TS]

  pro that I use like many people do in [TS]

  clamshell mode [TS]

  next you know on my desk most of the [TS]

  time but then when I travel I can just [TS]

  take that with me and have all the power [TS]

  of this maxed-out computer with me that [TS]

  is what i should do it is not what I'm [TS]

  doing that and maybe in the future i [TS]

  will do that you know you know me I [TS]

  always change everything up never happy [TS]

  so maybe in the future i will do that I [TS]

  think I really want to wait and see what [TS]

  happens to the mac pro next year first [TS]

  you know if it turns out the mac pro is [TS]

  really dead and that the best weekend [TS]

  ever hope for in desktops is imac [TS]

  hardware that's ten twenty percent [TS]

  faster than the macbook pros [TS]

  the day then that might make a lot of [TS]

  sense actually for me but I really [TS]

  handle the fan noise I guarantee it [TS]

  you just think about the imac also has [TS]

  family that's the problem when as loud [TS]

  as a 15-inch no way [TS]

  well so so again i want to see the new [TS]

  15 inches first I want to know I want to [TS]

  have some experience with them hopefully [TS]

  to see like you know is this really you [TS]

  know how are these machines they really [TS]

  did reduce the fan noise noticeably when [TS]

  they move from the old crappy [TS]

  symmetrical fan blades to the retina [TS]

  macbook pro and 2012 when when Johnny [TS]

  first talked about the asymmetric family [TS]

  they showed this show the waveform yeah [TS]

  it's not louder but it did the like the [TS]

  annoying this other Diana asymmetrical [TS]

  really help with the annoying this it [TS]

  turned into a white-noise thing but I [TS]

  think it's still dark honest I i'm [TS]

  annoyed that i can hear the imac at all [TS]

  i'm annoyed at what I hear what i hear a [TS]

  laptop going with the is having are the [TS]

  new ones obviously but the asymmetrical [TS]

  fan ones they still I don't like the [TS]

  sound of like a white noise generating [TS]

  machine yet neither do i and III don't [TS]

  like cc1 my imac fan spin up i consider [TS]

  that like something that idea to put [TS]

  headphones on right now and stop here in [TS]

  this order to find the process that is [TS]

  using all my cpu power and just kill it [TS]

  because I I can i I really don't like [TS]

  hearing fan noise while I work [TS]

  it's simple as that so you know it a [TS]

  macro is silent under load in most rooms [TS]

  and that's one of the reasons i love it [TS]

  and that's one thing that will greatly [TS]

  miss if it is truly dead forever which [TS]

  you know again I i think it's looking [TS]

  increasingly likely we'll see what [TS]

  happens next year but anyway so all I [TS]

  was saying was it doesn't make a lot of [TS]

  sense for me to maintain two different [TS]

  fork or mid-range to high-end machines [TS]

  from Apple when I occasionally need one [TS]

  on the road but most of the time it's at [TS]

  my desk [TS]

  it would make more sense to consolidate [TS]

  into one computer and maybe even pull an [TS]

  imax I should be great and have two [TS]

  laptops maybe I have that crazy one and [TS]

  also a very small one like either an [TS]

  escape or macbook 144 the travel needs [TS]

  during which i don't need a lot of power [TS]

  and I just want to have the smallest [TS]

  thing possible and that would hardly [TS]

  ever get upgraded but that is a world [TS]

  that I probably should go to but [TS]

  currently i am not going to that [TS]

  because currently i'm still waiting out [TS]

  the potential mac pro of the future so i [TS]

  will see [TS]

  ATT says pointing out in the chat room [TS]

  that I should not forget that six core [TS]

  chips will be coming to the imac [TS]

  consumer core i7 line [TS]

  presumably you know in in the near [TS]

  future a six core imac would be awesome [TS]

  i would really prefer more you know it [TS]

  isn't gonna upgrade from for I want to [TS]

  pick up where i want to go to eight or [TS]

  twelve even or even more if i can get it [TS]

  and so I'd be nice to have even more but [TS]

  you know we'll see again at this this [TS]

  all depends on what the hardware brings [TS]

  over the next year or two and whether [TS]

  Apple even makes computers that use [TS]

  these chips are coming out we don't even [TS]

  know that so we'll see time will tell [TS]

  but right now i am not going all laptop [TS]

  but all I was saying that if I were more [TS]

  sensible it would probably be a better [TS]

  allocation of resources to just do that [TS]

  which is probably the reason why so many [TS]

  people do exactly that [TS]

  indeed I just wanted to grumble at you [TS]

  publicly for a moment so I feel much [TS]

  better now thanks everyone responds to [TS]

  tonight by betterment to go to [TS]

  betterment calm / ATP for investing made [TS]

  better betterment is the largest [TS]

  automated investing service out there is [TS]

  independent managing more than 5.5 [TS]

  billion dollars for over a hundred and [TS]

  eighty thousand customers as of this [TS]

  past September Betterman has changed the [TS]

  investing into making investing easier [TS]

  and a lower cost and traditional [TS]

  financial advising services better it [TS]

  manages your investment with the same [TS]

  strategies the financial advisor is used [TS]

  with clients who have millions of [TS]

  dollars and you probably heard about [TS]

  them in the press such as the wall [TS]

  street journal Bloomberg and techcrunch [TS]

  defense service industries embrace [TS]

  technology and innovation to the [TS]

  creation of automated investing [TS]

  platforms like betterment me that you [TS]

  keep more of your money with fees that [TS]

  are a fraction of what you pay for [TS]

  traditional financial services excess [TS]

  cash that generator is automatically [TS]

  reinvested so every dollar you invest is [TS]

  put to work your portfolio is also [TS]

  automatically rebalance as necessary now [TS]

  investing involves risk but right now [TS]

  you can get up to six month no six [TS]

  months of no fees by going to betterment [TS]

  duck [TS]

  / ATP that's betterment calm / ATP [TS]

  betterment investing made better [TS]

  ah apple has released a new mac book and [TS]

  things there's a new design book and [TS]

  half of me thinks I'd really don't see a [TS]

  problem with it and half of me thinks my [TS]

  word have they lost all sense of reality [TS]

  and I haven't decided which ones which [TS]

  ones which [TS]

  did anybody see this coming I didn't [TS]

  ride and I think it's a totally [TS]

  reasonable and to be expected thing for [TS]

  them to do in fact I'm surprised they [TS]

  don't do more of it i mean they sell [TS]

  they sell shirts with their things on [TS]

  them they sell all sorts of merchandise [TS]

  but it's Apple that apple stuff on it [TS]

  they they love having giant posters of [TS]

  all they're you know they're proud of [TS]

  their design and this particular thing [TS]

  as sort of a capper to johnny is career [TS]

  at Apple like it makes total sense i [TS]

  don't i don't think it's all that weird [TS]

  there are a few things are different [TS]

  about I mean first of all like the the [TS]

  t-shirts mugs everything you can only [TS]

  buy their company store or at their [TS]

  conference so it like you can't just go [TS]

  into any apple store go online and order [TS]

  an apple t-shirt like you like this kind [TS]

  of like a limited thing they keep only [TS]

  to like their store i'm assuming this [TS]

  will be limited to like how long do you [TS]

  think they'll sell its gonna be selling [TS]

  it for five years unless maybe maybe Tim [TS]

  Cook says you know we can keep selling [TS]

  the same design book for 10 years and [TS]

  there are the lower the price [TS]

  sure but like the other stuff is more [TS]

  like a slight it's like a gift shop at a [TS]

  museum like I went to apple 22 either [TS]

  WBC or to their campus and so I got this [TS]

  this expensive t-shirt because i went [TS]

  there and that's that's a little bit [TS]

  more justifiable if you have a problem [TS]

  this by the way I don't necessarily have [TS]

  a problem with this I i'm still I mostly [TS]

  indifferent on it i mostly don't care [TS]

  that exists i do think it shows a few [TS]

  things worth worth considering you know [TS]

  things like possible China of retirement [TS]

  overall though it seems poorly timed at [TS]

  a time when Apple is being criticized [TS]

  for neglecting a lot of their product [TS]

  line and their new release is being [TS]

  criticized for being especially poor [TS]

  value for the money [TS]

  and they and they appear to have cut [TS]

  Donald prices in an effort to show maybe [TS]

  they're not just trying to get a whole [TS]

  bunch of extra money from from accessory [TS]

  sales so is kind of an unfortunate time [TS]

  even if you ignore the election which I [TS]

  I I don't think you should [TS]

  but even if you ignore that this is kind [TS]

  of a weird time for Apple to release an [TS]

  incredibly self-congratulatory [TS]

  highfalutin to three-hundred-dollar book [TS]

  about themselves [TS]

  it's just it's a little bit poorly timed [TS]

  i think but it even if you don't agree [TS]

  with that he stepped aside I think it's [TS]

  mostly fine i do think it it is one of [TS]

  many signs pointing to Johnny I've is [TS]

  probably not that far off departure or [TS]

  retirement from apple or middle just [TS]

  descend further into the clouds of [TS]

  bizarre titles that that mean he doesn't [TS]

  actually do any day work but that might [TS]

  be the same thing I don't know but I'm [TS]

  not sure if I want one or not and i [TS]

  might be one of the ideal customers for [TS]

  it i buy stupid expensive things all the [TS]

  time that I like apple stuff usually a [TS]

  lot as i was looking at some of the some [TS]

  of the pages that they have on their [TS]

  sample site and everything they just [TS]

  kind of make me sad because they show [TS]

  like like other store the sample show [TS]

  the mac mini case and and like the the [TS]

  big cutting wheel i'm sorry i don't know [TS]

  the terms these various manufacturing [TS]

  tools like some giant spiky wheel that [TS]

  presumably carves out part of the inside [TS]

  of the mac mini case and its really nice [TS]

  that you care so much about the mac mini [TS]

  that people take this picture but the [TS]

  machine that makes this case what about [TS]

  the product that's been pretty neglected [TS]

  pretty badly or shit shows like it like [TS]

  a picture of the of the bottom assembly [TS]

  with the lid popping off of the previous [TS]

  generation non retina macbook pros like [TS]

  that might even be the one exactly and [TS]

  it shows that the macbook pro bottom lid [TS]

  taken off and you have the removable [TS]

  battery and you have the removable [TS]

  upgradeable hard drive is like oh yeah I [TS]

  remember one laptops for upgradeable and [TS]

  easily repaired like Kate I i think this [TS]

  book would mostly just me he said [TS]

  obviously about like about either either [TS]

  computers that Apple has neglected and [TS]

  that I that I am sad about like the mac [TS]

  pro which i assume is in there [TS]

  or it features of computers that are no [TS]

  longer present that have been cut [TS]

  through the the marks of quote progress [TS]

  over the years some of which is real [TS]

  progress I'm which is just cutting [TS]

  things so I i don't know how i feel [TS]

  about this for myself but if other [TS]

  people want to have this book and enjoy [TS]

  it that's fine really i again i do think [TS]

  that releases poorly timed but other [TS]

  than other than that I don't really have [TS]

  a problem with it i think i'm mostly [TS]

  agree but I already have a copy it's [TS]

  just called iconic back and i have [TS]

  iconic somewhere I think too i have the [TS]

  the old apple design book from the [TS]

  nineties it's called the let me check [TS]

  the island while you're checking out [TS]

  there is one a pic i do want to I i do [TS]

  want to not forget about though and that [TS]

  is so so Steve Jobs his name is all over [TS]

  this book they they [TS]

  his name's all over the press release [TS]

  their very prominently dedicated to him [TS]

  and everything I I think enough people [TS]

  have said that I don't need to say too [TS]

  much about that it's questionable [TS]

  whether jobs would have actually [TS]

  approved this project and and used it i [TS]

  will so that a lot of people keep saying [TS]

  that this project was started eight [TS]

  years ago and therefore that was back [TS]

  when Jobs alive and therefore he must [TS]

  have implicitly approved it and that's [TS]

  not entirely clear when Johnny idea the [TS]

  interview 2w something wallpaper [TS]

  whatever I forget I'm sorry [TS]

  it mentioned that they started [TS]

  collecting the products to photograph 8 [TS]

  years ago that doesn't mean they started [TS]

  photographing for this specific project [TS]

  that was approved by jobs eight years [TS]

  ago so I do want to make that clear that [TS]

  I don't we don't know that jobs new this [TS]

  at all and I think I can't imagine that [TS]

  he would have appreciated it but well [TS]

  you know it's always risky for protect [TS]

  people like us to say well Steve Jobs [TS]

  wouldn't have done this wouldn't like [TS]

  this because you don't really know the [TS]

  guy change his mind a lot and he's not [TS]

  here anymore to to refute it so that [TS]

  it's not a great thing to rest on but it [TS]

  but i do think plastering his name all [TS]

  over it is maybe not so we just [TS]

  dedicated to him it's not like they're [TS]

  trying to like you know build on his [TS]

  the image to make to sell this book like [TS]

  the book sells that itself on its merits [TS]

  dedicated to the memory of their friend [TS]

  I think that's fine and if we can say [TS]

  one thing about this book it is steve [TS]

  jobs would like to have it in his house [TS]

  whether or not he thinks it's the [TS]

  product apple should sell I guarantee [TS]

  you he would love to have this book he [TS]

  would sit there on his his couch with [TS]

  his bare feet and leave through it and [TS]

  look at the great work that he's done [TS]

  whether anything is an example should be [TS]

  selling is a whole other story where the [TS]

  example should have a museum of all the [TS]

  old stuff is a hold of the story but he [TS]

  so clearly took pride in all the [TS]

  products that are in this thing that he [TS]

  himself just personally would surely [TS]

  love to have the best possible [TS]

  photographs on the best possible paper [TS]

  made in germany with them you know [TS]

  special gilding around the edges and he [TS]

  would love this book this you look [TS]

  really cool thing to make for your [TS]

  employees you know or or to maybe sell [TS]

  for a limited time at your campus store [TS]

  but to sell it as like a whole product [TS]

  that I think it kind of raises the bar [TS]

  and raises the level of criticism a bit [TS]

  a little bit of an unnecessarily maybe [TS]

  but you know because like I think will [TS]

  be a lot cooler if this was a thing for [TS]

  all the employees Vegas all got for free [TS]

  we probably aren't even getting for free [TS]

  probably not it's charging two [TS]

  particular always work but imagine if [TS]

  they gave us to all the employees and [TS]

  the handful of Apple collectors who [TS]

  really want it would have to like go [TS]

  find on eBay or something that will be [TS]

  so much cooler if you had one if that [TS]

  was the case it i don't know is it just [TS]

  seems like that might have been a better [TS]

  way to go here [TS]

  yeah I tend to agree so I just reached [TS]

  out into the bookcase behind me and grab [TS]

  my copy of iconic and i started paging [TS]

  through it and I landed on page 130 of [TS]

  iconic and it has a quote which i will [TS]

  read to you if you never change anything [TS]

  then what what you can really engineers [TS]

  kind of incremental but when you're [TS]

  willing to change things then you kind [TS]

  of open up a whole new world of design [TS]

  this is Big Bob Mansfield at the launch [TS]

  of 2012 macbook pro in the accompanying [TS]

  picture is a macbook pro that has [TS]

  magsafe ethernet firewire Thunderbolt 2 [TS]

  USB ports in SD card slot line in ahead [TS]

  on Jack just thought that was kind of [TS]

  funny that's pretty cool so yeah so when [TS]

  you're willing to change things and you [TS]

  open up a whole new world of design like [TS]

  fewer ports so the book next to me is [TS]

  called apple design all one word capital [TS]

  capital D colon the work of the Apple [TS]

  industrial design group and it's where [TS]

  is an older book so it's got the stuff [TS]

  from before you guys are Mac users it's [TS]

  like mostly the error [TS]

  well i can expand the whole range but [TS]

  anyway it's definitely earlier than the [TS]

  stuff that's in this book and i could [TS]

  say i would like to own this book to i [TS]

  would totally like this book but i would [TS]

  like two or three jobs where at this [TS]

  point because and here's what here's the [TS]

  thing like it's not three hundred [TS]

  dollars for a really super high-quality [TS]

  photo book is that big a deal it's just [TS]

  that for me personally with you know [TS]

  having just bought a monitor and [TS]

  playstation 4 pro and also other stuff I [TS]

  would spend three hundred dollars in [TS]

  this if it was like the making of the [TS]

  star wars books that i bought which by [TS]

  the way Warren $300 like basically if it [TS]

  was lots more words now that I don't [TS]

  like the pictures i do i want the [TS]

  pictures but if it was the pictures but [TS]

  also pages upon pages upon pages of the [TS]

  designers including John himself telling [TS]

  the story of how they came up with these [TS]

  designs in as much detail as they can [TS]

  possibly remember again like the making [TS]

  of the star wars books which are not [TS]

  first-person accounts but it's like some [TS]

  research and talk to all the people [TS]

  involved and tried to lay out here's how [TS]

  each of the three original trilogy star [TS]

  wars we just made from conception [TS]

  through the production design talking to [TS]

  all the people involved in getting [TS]

  quotes from them and putting it all [TS]

  together [TS]

  that's what i would like to read and my [TS]

  impression is this book is either [TS]

  entirely or at least mostly pictures and [TS]

  not so much about Apple's gonna tell you [TS]

  you know how the sausage is made [TS]

  I mean I'm sure lots of pictures of [TS]

  prototypes and you know like things with [TS]

  a tool that Marco talk about whatever [TS]

  but it's not really like tell us how did [TS]

  you come up with this is I would love to [TS]

  read that but that is not that simple [TS]

  and what I'm saying is basically those [TS]

  those words were in this book i would [TS]

  pay 300 dollar store in a second but [TS]

  just the photos I i have a longing to on [TS]

  this book but cannot bring myself to [TS]

  part with Randy dollars were quite yet [TS]

  maybe maybe I'll break down into how [TS]

  long they sell this maybe I'll succumb [TS]

  to it at some point because I [TS]

  really do want this book i mean i have [TS]

  tons of books like this but both range [TS]

  of dollars that stuff and no i don't [TS]

  want the small one because come on it's [TS]

  nothing why are there two sizes like [TS]

  that's such a good thing just making [TS]

  sure they should have called the big 12 [TS]

  plus some people want a larger obviously [TS]

  the big one is huge i like the big 1i [TS]

  think I'm think about if I had that in [TS]

  my house how the hell would I even fit [TS]

  on my shelves i don't think i even have [TS]

  any shelves at the making of star wars [TS]

  books are a little bit too big for my [TS]

  shelves too but you know it's photos [TS]

  come on you gotta get the big yeah i [TS]

  just gotta say this iconic book I'd [TS]

  forgotten page through a long time man [TS]

  is this a nice book it really honestly [TS]

  is and its cheapness like 50 bucks on [TS]

  amazon right now it's definitely worth [TS]

  it i wonder if i can get the business [TS]

  rep discount ok fifty percent of you [TS]

  threw a book at my apple ibook is right [TS]

  next to the art of kiki's delivery [TS]

  service the complete works of Larry a [TS]

  lot more but also i have a higher or [TS]

  astoria legend of zelda book all of [TS]

  which are about the same size big kind [TS]

  of glossy photo book things but none of [TS]

  which costs three hundred dollars now I [TS]

  mean it's you know people who know more [TS]

  about art books are end you know as you [TS]

  said John like the I don't think it's [TS]

  outrageously priced for what it is but [TS]

  it certainly doesn't contribute it [TS]

  certainly doesn't help the the recent or [TS]

  possibly forever reputation of apple for [TS]

  this like elitist company making [TS]

  expensive things that only for rich [TS]

  people like that's this doesn't really [TS]

  help that image at all in this really i [TS]

  don't know again this is not a big deal [TS]

  i don't feel that strongly about this [TS]

  book either way I might even buy one who [TS]

  knows but i do think it was a little [TS]

  poorly timed for for image sake I think [TS]

  and see the weird thing about this book [TS]

  is its i like the idea that Apple itself [TS]

  is the one doing it because it's great [TS]

  as iconic is the apples line books or [TS]

  whatever Apple presumably I mean you [TS]

  would think they would have access to [TS]

  all the stuff apparently they didn't [TS]

  have to go out and buy it or whatever [TS]

  but either way like they was really good [TS]

  at taking pictures of its products they [TS]

  have the most experience of anybody in [TS]

  the entire world taking pictures of [TS]

  apple products because that's what they [TS]

  do and they do it really really well and [TS]

  because they're all obsessive detailed [TS]

  people about like the printing and the [TS]

  color in the paper I bet it's a really [TS]

  nice book right but the one thing the [TS]

  Apple can bring to this book above and [TS]

  beyond those two things that i just [TS]

  mentioned that nobody else can [TS]

  is that they have the best access to the [TS]

  people who were involved in making me [TS]

  some of those people may be gone all [TS]

  those supposedly there's very little [TS]

  turnover and Johnny absolutely design [TS]

  group there that's the value they can [TS]

  bring this was the whole I know you're [TS]

  getting a market like apples making a [TS]

  book about how great their right there [TS]

  making a book about themselves and [TS]

  saying we are awesome or just look at [TS]

  all these cool things that we made which [TS]

  i guess is ok but if you want a blunt [TS]

  that it's like don't just make it look [TS]

  at these awesome things that we made [TS]

  bring the value that only you have tell [TS]

  us the stories people who worked on [TS]

  these products [TS]

  tell us about how you made them because [TS]

  no one else can tell us how they made [TS]

  them other people can take pictures of [TS]

  them other people can make a big glossy [TS]

  photo book other people can probably [TS]

  find the right kind of paper and do the [TS]

  cool printing and do all the things but [TS]

  nobody but you guys can tell us the [TS]

  story of how these products are made and [TS]

  they're not doing that so they're like [TS]

  saying how great they are but like yeah [TS]

  I don't want to tell you too much about [TS]

  it just look at the stuff we're pretty [TS]

  great huh don't nevermind that was made [TS]

  and that's that definitely shades more [TS]

  into the event that makes it less [TS]

  forgivable as an act of you know [TS]

  self-congratulations because if you are [TS]

  describing how you did it [TS]

  you're not just congratulating yourself [TS]

  even if the whole book is like we had [TS]

  heart problems then we solve them [TS]

  because you're super smart you're you're [TS]

  passing on your knowledge your telling [TS]

  the rest of the world learn from our [TS]

  lessons which you can still do with a [TS]

  lot of ego and you know back padding but [TS]

  i think that would offset the look how [TS]

  great we are angle of it and and like [TS]

  you said and I can only goes like and [TS]

  like we talked about with the actual the [TS]

  the new macbook pros the past several [TS]

  shows it's not so much the thing itself [TS]

  it's the context into which is [TS]

  introduced and so like Marcus at the [TS]

  timing is bad and at this point almost [TS]

  anything you introduced into the context [TS]

  of a certain set of grumpy Apple fans is [TS]

  going to be looked upon with the you [TS]

  know a very critical eye and people are [TS]

  generally in a bad mood for reasons that [TS]

  are made some which may be outside [TS]

  apples control whatever like if they've [TS]

  been if they've been building towards [TS]

  right years [TS]

  fine whatever release it like a holiday [TS]

  season it's a good gift idea for the [TS]

  Apple nerd in your life you know like it [TS]

  that I don't fault them i don't think [TS]

  it's that big a deal [TS]

  I just wish it wasn't three dollars [TS]

  because I really want this book I you [TS]

  know and one thing like I think you [TS]

  nailed it about like that you know part [TS]

  of this number of people the wrong way [TS]

  is the fact that there is there are no [TS]

  no words or as you said like you know [TS]

  that they have access to the people they [TS]

  could have added the human more human [TS]

  function and it seems like they mean we [TS]

  haven't read the book yet but from the [TS]

  few sample pages we've seen it really [TS]

  does seem like they didn't you know [TS]

  there's no words in it and i think if i [TS]

  had to summarize I i guess the the main [TS]

  disappoint when I have with apple [TS]

  recently which i think a lot of people [TS]

  feel but might not have put into words [TS]

  is that it seems to just lack humanity [TS]

  recently like it and I don't like this [TS]

  might be a Steve too Tim thing i don't [TS]

  know i haven't given a ton of thought to [TS]

  this year it's hard to put into words [TS]

  but you know Steve even though we knew [TS]

  he could be like cold and ruthless to [TS]

  people when he had to be his public [TS]

  persona which which really did reflect [TS]

  upon the whole company you know to the [TS]

  public was really quite warm and and [TS]

  human and we end with with the [TS]

  transition to Tim Cook sample and and [TS]

  jony ive's apple which is you know [TS]

  that's really this is what this is these [TS]

  days [TS]

  Apple that the public image that we get [TS]

  even though most of the same people are [TS]

  still there but the public image that is [TS]

  shown to us what gets out there's a lot [TS]

  more cold and they're like the humanity [TS]

  has been stripped out of it and as and I [TS]

  think part of what bug people about [TS]

  things like removing the startup chime [TS]

  on a new macbook pros and removing the [TS]

  lineup logo on the back is like that's a [TS]

  little bit more of this humanity to just [TS]

  being pulled out of the products and and [TS]

  we don't see warmth and humanity as much [TS]

  as we used to anymore you know a promo [TS]

  video showing what people are doing with [TS]

  the product is different its you think [TS]

  its humanity [TS]

  I I do i do think its humanity i think [TS]

  we do i would say you don't think whimsy [TS]

  is a better word because the wind is a [TS]

  stronger case for whimsy because [TS]

  humanity I think of like to [TS]

  Cook is much more into you know the the [TS]

  human aspects are social aspects of both [TS]

  the products and the company then Steve [TS]

  Jobs ever was and tim cook in the Tim [TS]

  Cook era he's the one who's constantly [TS]

  starting presentations with videos about [TS]

  accessibility and people who are being [TS]

  you know he's a human story of being [TS]

  empowered by apple products i would call [TS]

  that human too but whimsical is you know [TS]

  we're like it is dorky maybe hit you [TS]

  know it wimzie's just like that the [TS]

  little happy mac and and and the child [TS]

  little happy mac and and and the child [TS]

  and then a little poof animation stuff [TS]

  silly things like that seem to not be [TS]

  too Jony Ive's taste because he's not [TS]

  into the proof right he's not into the [TS]

  this happy Mac the smile and the time [TS]

  he's into the the iphone that doesn't [TS]

  even have a logo that you can see when [TS]

  you look at it right and Tim Cook is [TS]

  deferring to drive in that way so I [TS]

  think you're right to refer to the same [TS]

  cook / Jony ive apple so there is [TS]

  definitely less sense of whimsy and [TS]

  whimsy can be seen as warmth in his [TS]

  design is that it can be thought of as [TS]

  cold but I think Tim Cook's apple and [TS]

  Tim Duncan specific specifically are all [TS]

  about humanity just not about darkness [TS]

  and whimsy [TS]

  yeah it's I'm not again i'm not saying [TS]

  that like the company like because we [TS]

  know the same people are mostly they're [TS]

  right especially look at the upper [TS]

  levels not a lot of change their they [TS]

  need a week we know that they do good [TS]

  these are good people and they do good [TS]

  things for the world but you did doesn't [TS]

  come across it [TS]

  the the amount of warmth and and you [TS]

  know and maybe humanity might be exactly [TS]

  what I do think whimsies partner but I [TS]

  don't think whimsy covers all of what [TS]

  I'm what I'm missing [TS]

  well what about the ads like when they [TS]

  show their a lot of their recent ads [TS]

  have been all about showing people using [TS]

  the product remember the one with like [TS]

  the kid with his nose buried in his [TS]

  phone during the holidays Christmas [TS]

  thing at the end he's made the video of [TS]

  them making this stuff like or just like [TS]

  the people who are like with your watch [TS]

  you get up as early in the morning it's [TS]

  still dark calculates the sneakers to [TS]

  put on your watch is not running or [TS]

  you're running through the rain with [TS]

  your now water-resistant phone like [TS]

  they're adds even more than they used to [TS]

  be [TS]

  had been less about glorifying the [TS]

  objects is beautiful totems of [TS]

  technology as like look how smooth and [TS]

  sleek is which they still doing like the [TS]

  presentations to hospital on television [TS]

  it's all about the people it's all about [TS]

  I am a runner i like to take photographs [TS]

  i'm on a family vacation and you know [TS]

  come by this device in your kid will be [TS]

  it will look like a socket into really [TS]

  he will be loving wonderful creative [TS]

  child which is false advertising but [TS]

  anyway I'm here to suck and won't [TS]

  actually make a video for you just [TS]

  texting his friends although not that [TS]

  like we add seem to be focusing on again [TS]

  the humanity of uh like that it's not [TS]

  about the product [TS]

  about the people and what the products [TS]

  enable the people to do so and again [TS]

  that's you know Apple choose what kind [TS]

  of adds an extra the advertising company [TS]

  makes them but Apple can give them [TS]

  direction and it is less like that you [TS]

  know in the steve jobs are you had a [TS]

  series of commercials that were all [TS]

  about showing you the card the hardware [TS]

  like the lifesavers imax flying across [TS]

  the screen look they're shiny and color [TS]

  and look at the on the imac SE came out [TS]

  it's all sleep in graphite he liked [TS]

  those were more obsessed obsessed with [TS]

  the objects because that was all about [TS]

  like hey hardware can be fashioned and [TS]

  look at these things and I think it [TS]

  started to shift with the ipod where was [TS]

  like yeah there's silhouettes dancing [TS]

  and you can see the ipod with the white [TS]

  cord but it's all about people dancing [TS]

  and music and at this point they're [TS]

  selling phones by showing you people [TS]

  jogging right so it is so far from i [TS]

  think it is definitely a very human [TS]

  approach but again i would say that the [TS]

  product designs themselves and what [TS]

  things the company decides to do [TS]

  definitely seem less whimsical and less [TS]

  dorky and I could see that is being said [TS]

  more cold unless more the ads you know [TS]

  you're right the a defined but their ads [TS]

  their commercials you know you know I [TS]

  i'm referring to mostly the products and [TS]

  then some also of the presentations you [TS]

  know by the actual humans on stage at [TS]

  the events you know so again it's it's [TS]

  hard to to not make this about Steve [TS]

  because steve was really good at at [TS]

  really being you know personable up [TS]

  there onstage and whether it was [TS]

  rehearsed or or fake or real or whatever [TS]

  I don't know it didn't matter its see it [TS]

  really did come across as genuine and [TS]

  real and and warm and that's what I [TS]

  missed both onstage I don't care what [TS]

  the videos the the use of more videos [TS]

  actually to me feels colder i feels more [TS]

  artificial but you know that's that's [TS]

  beside the point for now at all i'm [TS]

  saying is I i miss this level of warmth [TS]

  that that we used to get from them in [TS]

  these presentations and then I think [TS]

  that the whimsy and the product is part [TS]

  of that I you know that showed the [TS]

  product and it seems like modern apple [TS]

  is all about really editing that out as [TS]

  as part of a march towards quote [TS]

  simplifying or quote progress but but I [TS]

  we're losing a lot of that and where we [TS]

  don't seem to be gaining any in many [TS]

  areas anymore it seems like we've been [TS]

  coming just moved on past that and just [TS]

  now it's just a lot more like cold and [TS]

  and almost robotic so this book coming [TS]

  out with all pictures of Johnny I'd [TS]

  robotic tools in stark white background [TS]

  with no words i think is kind of like a [TS]

  culmination of of that cold process and [TS]

  at that's what kind of rubs me the wrong [TS]

  way about about the book and about apple [TS]

  today if I had to summarize it down and [TS]

  again i I'm sorry if I'm not expressing [TS]

  this well this is really still a very [TS]

  you know squishy thought in my head but [TS]

  just I'm trying to put into feel it put [TS]

  into words a complex feeling lemon [TS]

  filling over a while but I just miss [TS]

  that warmth that we used to that we used [TS]

  to get whether it was real or not from [TS]

  from both Steve and the products that I [TS]

  think we're really missing a lot of that [TS]

  recently so if you were to get this book [TS]

  and it was chronological which i'm not [TS]

  sure that is but if it is chronological [TS]

  you could flip through it and watch the [TS]

  whimsy slowly draining out of the [TS]

  products that you started with tangerine [TS]

  imax and all these brightly colored [TS]

  things that it like you know the the [TS]

  toilet but see I books and all these [TS]

  things that just look so exciting and [TS]

  dr. Susie and slowly but surely [TS]

  everything turned silver and glass and [TS]

  uniform and not shiny not mad just in [TS]

  between e and you know just it smooths [TS]

  out which I you know I like both those [TS]

  athletics is why I think like this book [TS]

  is this book highlights some of Apple [TS]

  best work in terms of industrial design [TS]

  because it does include all away from [TS]

  you know the the the the vibrancy of the [TS]

  original imax and even like the one with [TS]

  the big neck and all the stuff all way [TS]

  up to the modern era of everything being [TS]

  sleek and clean those are both great [TS]

  aesthetics but chronologically speaking [TS]

  you know you can see the trend i could [TS]

  read the book backwards and make myself [TS]

  feel really happy [TS]

  benjamin button it but you know I [TS]

  I think I'm i agree with you Marco I I [TS]

  just can't shake this feeling that Apple [TS]

  is reluctantly moving closer and closer [TS]

  to being the IBM that they fought so [TS]

  hard against when when you and I were [TS]

  like a really little [TS]

  let's not go crazy here well no I don't [TS]

  think they're there but if you look at [TS]

  the IBM of the early to mid eighties [TS]

  probably ladies it was not boring but it [TS]

  certainly did not have whimsy and I [TS]

  would not say that Apple's products [TS]

  they're boring many such an imagination [TS]

  but i agree that they've lost some of [TS]

  that and I actually think humanity is a [TS]

  is a good word for it if a bit overblown [TS]

  but I can't come up with a better one [TS]

  and i think i like humanity more than [TS]

  wednesday but anyway it just doesn't [TS]

  feel as happy go lucky as they used to [TS]

  and I think part of that is being is is [TS]

  no longer being the underdog is now [TS]

  being king of the hill which maybe [TS]

  that's our perception [TS]

  maybe it's that because we perceive them [TS]

  as king of the hill we perceive them is [TS]

  boring and they're anything but but i [TS]

  don't know i don't i don't think that's [TS]

  the case in and i agree with you and [TS]

  it's funny because on the one side I i [TS]

  love the look of the new macbook pro at [TS]

  least in in photographs i haven't seen [TS]

  one in person yet but in in photographs [TS]

  it looks phenomenal [TS]

  I i love it i think it looks really [TS]

  great and I think that's in part because [TS]

  you know a very black aesthetic appeals [TS]

  to me but yet I i miss the fun of all [TS]

  these different colored imax you know it [TS]

  the computers that is all running around [TS]

  campus when I was in school in the early [TS]

  two thousands they just looked fun and I [TS]

  wouldn't say a new macbook pro looks fun [TS]

  it looks really damn good it looks more [TS]

  aesthetically good I'd say than perhaps [TS]

  any other laptop on the market today and [TS]

  in fact I've said before and I'll say [TS]

  again this iphone 7 holding in my hands [TS]

  right now that this matte black iphone 7 [TS]

  i think is the best-looking iphone I've [TS]

  seen yet however i wouldn't say it looks [TS]

  fun despite it looking really good and i [TS]

  miss that kind of fine ass [TS]

  fact yeah and this and i'm not saying [TS]

  the products are bad or like the [TS]

  products are in many ways better than [TS]

  ever now you know like by most measures [TS]

  most of the products are better than [TS]

  ever [TS]

  they're still good products in many ways [TS]

  they're still great products but but [TS]

  again just like it's this feeling that [TS]

  I'm missing that I'd that we used to [TS]

  have here and maybe I'm just old and [TS]

  jaded and boring i I don't know maybe [TS]

  I'm just mad with the mac pro still I [TS]

  don't know but but this I I just feel [TS]

  like I'm missing this feeling I'm not [TS]

  well I am old and jaded but I'm not [TS]

  jaded about mac pro specifically an area [TS]

  and I'm not jaded at about the macbook [TS]

  pro specifically and I i do largely [TS]

  agree with you that it just it's not as [TS]

  fun as it once was and again maybe is [TS]

  that just by virtue of them being no [TS]

  longer the underdog so so you know that [TS]

  it's fun to root for the underdog it's [TS]

  not fun to root for the king of the hill [TS]

  so maybe it's misplace maybe the problem [TS]

  is us but but i agree with you [TS]

  nevertheless I think the design trend [TS]

  that is described from the the more [TS]

  whimsical computers that varied more [TS]

  widely in shape and color and texture [TS]

  and everything about them to the current [TS]

  design is a natural consequence of the [TS]

  advance of the technology because as we [TS]

  acquire the technology to to to make the [TS]

  products that we have now that you know [TS]

  in the case of I devices are essentially [TS]

  rectangles that are screens that get [TS]

  increasingly thin and for the case of [TS]

  laptops a screen rectangle and then a [TS]

  rectangle with the keyboard an [TS]

  increasingly large trackpad your options [TS]

  for industrial design uh start to be in [TS]

  conflict with the advances that you're [TS]

  you know the reaping the benefits of [TS]

  actually be able to make it smaller like [TS]

  if you look at the size of the the [TS]

  plastic that surrounds the screen on the [TS]

  toilet seat imax it is its vast right [TS]

  and that allows you to make this [TS]

  cool-looking strange oblong kind of [TS]

  person like design and everything like [TS]

  gives you the room to make those big [TS]

  scoops and colors and contrast but there [TS]

  is no there's no more room for that in a [TS]

  world where it's basically a screen with [TS]

  the margin slowly shrinking around it or [TS]

  like the laptops is you know getting [TS]

  thinner and thinner and smaller and [TS]

  tighter and tighter and you know why [TS]

  fight that the correct direction is [TS]

  aesthetically [TS]

  meeting Tuesday embrace that and embrace [TS]

  anesthetic that can work with [TS]

  increasingly smelt devices and that is [TS]

  get another reason to add to the list of [TS]

  why the mac pro be great because the mac [TS]

  pro it does not have a screen on it [TS]

  you do have the freedom to make it you [TS]

  they can make it shaped like a soccer [TS]

  ball can be shaped like a spiral [TS]

  apparently can be shaped like garbage [TS]

  can be shaped like a cheese grater it [TS]

  actually gives them the most options in [TS]

  terms of industrial design because there [TS]

  are no longer constrained by the fact [TS]

  that you have to carry it and that [TS]

  making it smaller and thinner and [TS]

  lighter is such a benefit in the long [TS]

  run that they can't afford to put a [TS]

  giant plastic handle on it and a huge [TS]

  three inch border around the entire [TS]

  screen because that's ridiculous like no [TS]

  one wants that anymore its it looks old [TS]

  and it is old and it's bad but when it [TS]

  says on your desk or under your desk a [TS]

  lot more options open up and so it's [TS]

  just another reason that it would be a [TS]

  shame if they totally gave up that form [TS]

  factor or if they said even that form [TS]

  factor you wanted to be its small and [TS]

  and minimal as possible and so that you [TS]

  get the current mac mini in the apple TV [TS]

  which are just the most you know it's [TS]

  and it's not appropriate I think for [TS]

  those things to be only the apple TV [TS]

  because I should be boring cuz you don't [TS]

  even see it but the mac mini you have a [TS]

  little bit more fun with that maybe put [TS]

  some events and strikes on and make it [TS]

  look like a Ferrari I don't know there [TS]

  was no reason for it to be as boring as [TS]

  it is but there are reasons for the [TS]

  phone to be as boring as it is and for [TS]

  the laptop speed not as boring like for [TS]

  them to look like a do I think they're [TS]

  very good reason to do that I think have [TS]

  to hit that they had tried to keep the [TS]

  old aesthetic while going along with the [TS]

  market technology that allows you to [TS]

  make it thinner and lighter it would be [TS]

  a bad tension between those two things [TS]

  you can't make a modern laptop that [TS]

  looks like the toilet seat I book you [TS]

  just can't be would youwould is not the [TS]

  right design approach back then it was [TS]

  now it's not now you can take the [TS]

  current ones and make them in candy [TS]

  apple red with the same form factor make [TS]

  it like polish glossy candy apple red [TS]

  and that would be fun but it's still you [TS]

  know like color and texture is basically [TS]

  all they have left to play with because [TS]

  shape-wise it's not like they're going [TS]

  to be adding friends and strikes you [TS]

  know tailfins on the next iPad pro or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  yeah i agree like why couldn't we have [TS]

  all the colors of the 5c on the seven [TS]

  you know because those were fun I [TS]

  thought [TS]

  in and I think they pee they appeal to a [TS]

  lot of people that perhaps weren't is [TS]

  you know technically minded in terms of [TS]

  of stats and like having to have the [TS]

  latest and greatest i still see 5 c's [TS]

  floating around from time to time so why [TS]

  not have that color range on the [TS]

  top-of-the-line phone [TS]

  well because it's not proper I mean I [TS]

  don't know I just I do kind of Miss that [TS]

  even though even though the one side I [TS]

  wouldn't ever pick any of those I guess [TS]

  this is my halo car like I don't really [TS]

  see the need for mac pro and I'm not [TS]

  trying to open up that conversation [TS]

  again but to me I don't see the need for [TS]

  a mac pro but i do like I would notice a [TS]

  array of colors on the iphone 7 and be [TS]

  pleased that they exist even though [TS]

  there was no freaking way I would choose [TS]

  anything but matt black or maybe [TS]

  jet-black my god like the negative [TS]

  robotic or again it's like you know real [TS]

  life you see phones that are all sorts [TS]

  of colors that's just not the color of [TS]

  the phone is the color of people's cases [TS]

  IC phone cans [TS]

  this is a huge range of colors textures [TS]

  sizes features ones that you put your [TS]

  credit card into ones that have a place [TS]

  for a stylist to go into like the huge [TS]

  things with mirrors on the back of them [TS]

  they just think clamshell ones ones with [TS]

  the covers not just a huge range but [TS]

  that's the Apple not doing any of that [TS]

  they're just giving you think about it [TS]

  for this episode is sponsored by [TS] with an unmatched selection [TS]

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  ATP thanks to audible for sponsoring our [TS]

  show we've been putting off for a long [TS]

  time talking about this Microsoft [TS]

  Surface studio and I think that we [TS]

  should probably talk about the Nintendo [TS]

  switch we don't actually have to do that [TS]

  but I couldn't sell it we should return [TS]

  to the surface to do first in fact it's [TS]

  been it's been so long since the service [TS]

  studio event whatever that was that I [TS]

  think we need the chief summarizer and [TS]

  chips to remind everyone what the hell [TS]

  the Microsoft Surface video is hosted at [TS]

  the to summarize in chief doesn't [TS]

  remember any more like I can get as so [TS]

  this was i don't recall exactly what it [TS]

  was but it was a few weeks ago that [TS]

  microsoft had some sort of product demo [TS]

  where they debuted the surface studio [TS]

  which at first appear to be an imac in [TS]

  many ways it just seemed like an imac an [TS]

  imac but well I guess I should say my [TS]

  mac mac mini right because it's the [TS]

  screen of an imac it appeared it's 28 [TS]

  inches and this in the computer bits are [TS]

  in a base that looks very much like a [TS]

  mac mini it's all black and aluminum or [TS]

  at least aluminum colored and it all [TS]

  looks very snazzy and i don't mean that [TS]

  sarcastically really honestly does look [TS]

  good and at first it was like okay great [TS]

  you're doing i'm a clue but then they [TS]

  mention that [TS]

  oh this is a touchscreen a 28 inch [TS]

  touchscreen and suddenly people start to [TS]

  go [TS]

  mm okay tell me more I and then the real [TS]

  party trick happened which was microsoft [TS]

  explained why there are two arms going [TS]

  from the mac mini to the imac [TS]

  and those arms allow you from what they [TS]

  showed allow you to very effortlessly [TS]

  turn this imac into kind of an easel so [TS]

  it's a day very very shallow angle such [TS]

  that you could use it as though it's a [TS]

  writing surface and it has with it their [TS]

  equivalent of an apple pencil and even [TS]

  more importantly it has or maybe not [TS]

  more importantly but differently [TS]

  it also has a surface dial and so what [TS]

  this is is a little puck sort of thing [TS]

  it's actually not on that dissimilar [TS]

  from the park mouse that everyone hated [TS]

  but much taller and you can sit that on [TS]

  your desk and you can spin it in order [TS]

  to manually change volume or get [TS]

  different you know tools as you're using [TS]

  the pen but where it gets even cooler [TS]

  still and you have to understand that [TS]

  this hinge that they have genuinely is [TS]

  is really need it looks really really [TS]

  clever but what's cooler still about the [TS]

  surface style this park is that you can [TS]

  drop this thing right on the display and [TS]

  the display recognizes that it's there [TS]

  and where it is and allows you to treat [TS]

  that is another control surface so in in [TS]

  the way that the naked robotic core is [TS]

  the like most pure realization of what [TS]

  what somebody would want for a computing [TS]

  device you know that that was what Apple [TS]

  would want for an iphone i think not [TS]

  that this is a naked robotic or but I [TS]

  feel like this is the most pure [TS]

  realization of what Microsoft hopes for [TS]

  for this world that to me is a little [TS]

  bizarro where you have a touch-based or [TS]

  touch permitted if nothing else desktop [TS]

  OS so Microsoft strategy for many years [TS]

  now with its windows thing especially as [TS]

  the windows phone stuff has been fading [TS]

  has been to have a single OS for all [TS]

  their platforms and because that single [TS]

  OS as part of its family tree is phones [TS]

  and tablet devices that of course it [TS]

  supports touch which is why you can you [TS]

  touch in windows with you know windows 8 [TS]

  that started and there the windows 10 [TS]

  now and so they've been changing windows [TS]

  to be an interface that you can use with [TS]

  the mouse and keyboard you can use with [TS]

  a pen you can use with your fingers and [TS]

  I've been doing this for a long time [TS]

  and to varying results i know some [TS]

  people have the microsoft surface tablet [TS]

  product that is basically like you can [TS]

  use like a pc with a keyboard attached [TS]

  to because it's got a hinge thing you [TS]

  can use it kind of like a tablet if [TS]

  you're using like a laptop you can also [TS]

  just poke your finger at the screen [TS]

  which I'm sure we've all seen this many [TS]

  people just expect to be able to do that [TS]

  especially younger people or anyone even [TS]

  just use a touch device for a long time [TS]

  they'll switch from an environment where [TS]

  they're using a tablet or phone to [TS]

  laptop and instinctively touch the [TS]

  screen i know i used to do with candles [TS]

  before the touchscreen candles because I [TS]

  spent so much time with iPads I would [TS]

  touch the screen to try to do something [TS]

  on the kindle and of course nothing [TS]

  would happen because they were totally [TS]

  inert like there was no this is before [TS]

  the touch-sensitive ones it is natural [TS]

  to get into that habit and Microsoft has [TS]

  built his entire interface strategy [TS]

  around the idea that all form of input [TS]

  are welcome then it should be supported [TS]

  they've been changing they've been [TS]

  changing windows do not require a [TS]

  perfectly precise mouse pointer or even [TS]

  a stylist to do things to try to make [TS]

  bigger chunkier controls and gestures [TS]

  and stuff like that and this service [TS]

  studio is the biggest this has gotten [TS]

  because previously was like you get [TS]

  tablets and you got these convertible [TS]

  laptop eat things that are like a tablet [TS]

  with the keyboard and yeah of course you [TS]

  can touch the screen and and they have [TS]

  the pen input and all that stuff but [TS]

  this is like 20 inches like this is not [TS]

  a big table this is a full size bigger [TS]

  than most people have is most people do [TS]

  not have 28 inch screens on their pcs [TS]

  full-size personal computer running [TS]

  Windows doesn't pretend to be a tablet [TS]

  you can't take it off and carry like a [TS]

  tablet it's not a big phone like it is a [TS]

  personal computer how that has all the [TS]

  normal inputbox you would want including [TS]

  a pen but then also accepts not just [TS]

  touch but like stop thinking of it as [TS]

  like I'm touching the screen but more [TS]

  like removing in direction because the [TS]

  the mouse and keyboard or indirect input [TS]

  devices and their their wonderful input [TS]

  devices and the very precise and [TS]

  especially the mouse i feel like is the [TS]

  least in directive in direct input [TS]

  devices because if you use the mouse for [TS]

  any appreciable amount of time the [TS]

  interaction disappears very quickly you [TS]

  don't feel like you're driving the mouse [TS]

  vs like say you had a joystick you got a [TS]

  joystick you would feel like you're [TS]

  driving the mask [TS]

  pressure around the screen like it's a [TS]

  little car to get the things you want [TS]

  but if you have a mouse you just [TS]

  basically feel like you're grabbing [TS]

  things on the screen and yes it is [TS]

  indirect you're not touching it is not [TS]

  as direct as touching the screen as [TS]

  anyone who uses an ipad or iphone no [TS]

  it's not that kind of direct but it is [TS]

  like really good video game controls in [TS]

  that very quickly disappears and you [TS]

  stop thinking about the control and just [TS]

  start thinking about the task but the [TS]

  ultimate direct input is like literal [TS]

  direct input as in you see something on [TS]

  the screen [TS]

  you manipulated on the screen with your [TS]

  hands and your fingers or your pen like [TS]

  the same way you would in the [TS]

  pre-computer age if you're doing [TS]

  something that involves putting marks on [TS]

  a piece of paper or shuffling things [TS]

  around put marks on the piece of paper [TS]

  or shuffle things around like do it [TS]

  don't move something that moves another [TS]

  thing on a screen that represents the [TS]

  things you're moving around just get [TS]

  right on that screen and this thing [TS]

  tilting down to like a drafting table [TS]

  type you know angle saying like if [TS]

  you're not doing text input you're not [TS]

  writing a program but instead you're [TS]

  doing anything having to do with visual [TS]

  arts or anything like that [TS]

  turn it down set aside your your [TS]

  keyboard and mouse for now and just get [TS]

  right on that screen it's a huge screen [TS]

  just get right down there you gotta pin [TS]

  you got your fingers you got the little [TS]

  daily thing i can imagine them adding [TS]

  more types of tools so that that to me [TS]

  is the culmination of their strategy of [TS]

  allowing all forms of input by saying [TS]

  here's a form of input that not only do [TS]

  we accept all forms impetigo you can't [TS]

  decide you should concentrate on one [TS]

  it's kind of weird to type and then use [TS]

  a mouse but also touchscreen make remind [TS]

  my click on the button of the mouse [TS]

  person I'm touching my finger my drawing [TS]

  pen what am i doing there are many tasks [TS]

  in which directly interacting with a [TS]

  gigantic screen is the best interface [TS]

  into the task where you put aside all [TS]

  those other tools and say I just want to [TS]

  get right to it and obviously there's a [TS]

  short like artists like that's the most [TS]

  obvious one and this is their first [TS]

  crack at this so maybe it's not as good [TS]

  as it could be [TS]

  people said that this too much parallax [TS]

  because your pen is too far away from [TS]

  like where the pixel are and that [TS]

  there's lag and some of the applications [TS]

  but I really feel like this is almost [TS]

  inevitably the the future of digital art [TS]

  whether Microsoft is going to be the [TS]

  future of digital I don't [TS]

  but like we've gone through the whole [TS]

  thing of using you know using mice to [TS]

  using you know tablets that are in [TS]

  direct input device to do the wacom [TS]

  cintiq which is like a tablet that's [TS]

  also screen it's like just just keep [TS]

  going because people love all those [TS]

  tools and get used to those tools but [TS]

  direct input if you can raise a [TS]

  generation with the expectation that you [TS]

  do your artwork on a giant 28 inch [TS]

  monitor by directly manipulating it that [TS]

  that's going to win in the end with a [TS]

  micro whether it's microsoft for [TS]

  somebody else and Microsoft getting [TS]

  their first is it's nice to see even [TS]

  this is a product is not great and it [TS]

  should be worrying to apple because [TS]

  apple doesn't have anything to compete [TS]

  with this like at all and I don't think [TS]

  Apple can say we really believe that the [TS]

  future of doing digital art is using a [TS]

  cintiq because apple doesn't make those [TS]

  either [TS]

  we really believe the future part is [TS]

  using a mouse or doing everything on you [TS]

  know they have ipads all right so [TS]

  where's your 28 inch iPad that doesn't [TS]

  that you need to plug into the wall like [TS]

  whatever happens going to do i'm not [TS]

  saying they have to make max touchscreen [TS]

  or anything but if they care at all [TS]

  which maybe they don't about the [TS]

  creative arts that involve drawing [TS]

  things even things from like I can [TS]

  imagine cat architectural drawings not [TS]

  just fine arts and and illustration and [TS]

  stuff like that they need to be doing [TS]

  something about this and I was so [TS]

  excited when I can't with the ipad [TS]

  probes like yeah that's what I was [TS]

  talking about you need a really big ipad [TS]

  and go back to listen all those shows [TS]

  from years and years ago I think at some [TS]

  point i did talk about the whole [TS]

  drafting table thing I think we talked [TS]

  about it on this very podcast but also [TS]

  on hypercritical this is it [TS]

  microsoft made it before Apple did Apple [TS]

  did make their ipad bigger but it took a [TS]

  long time to do it and they didn't make [TS]

  it bigger bigger and the idea of an iPad [TS]

  you can take off your desk [TS]

  I remember being laughed at perhaps in [TS]

  the show craft all that was like what [TS]

  the hell's the point an ipad we can move [TS]

  it anywhere this is the point [TS]

  this is the thing so I'm super-proud of [TS]

  microsoft for making this I hope they [TS]

  keep at it i hope they don't say well [TS]

  not a lot of people because i guarantee [TS]

  you now people are going to buy this [TS]

  because it's really expensive and it's [TS]

  like the first generation product and [TS]

  you know truth be told most people don't [TS]

  do fine arts in our computer right but i [TS]

  think this is the right idea for that [TS]

  class of problems [TS]

  and if Apple cares about that class of [TS]

  problems with Apple cares about keeping [TS]

  those creatives and I think to totally [TS]

  think they should because they are [TS]

  another branch of sort of the founding [TS]

  bedrock of Apple's products like [TS]

  creative professionals they need to [TS]

  start putting the air pump into those [TS]

  ipads and cranking up pronto because if [TS]

  they don't someone else is gonna get [TS]

  there first [TS]

  do you have any idea how much I wanted [TS]

  Reebok pumps as a kid my goodness I [TS]

  wanted this so bad [TS]

  you know I don't know I i really i [TS]

  really admire this like you said John I [TS]

  also think that this solves a class of [TS]

  problems that i just don't have which [TS]

  which I mean you kind of set as well but [TS]

  i have a slack team that I mean that's a [TS]

  handful of people that are either [TS]

  current or former employees of my last [TS]

  employer the consulting gig and we were [TS]

  actually when I feel like we have very [TS]

  cyclical conversations and one of them [TS]

  is 0 are touchscreen devices stupid or [TS]

  not [TS]

  and since most of these people are our [TS]

  windows developers most of them have [TS]

  touchscreen windows laptops and all of [TS]

  them swear all my god case you have no [TS]

  idea it's so good and that very well [TS]

  could be the case may be it is that good [TS]

  but having used a handful of touchscreen [TS]

  laptops admittedly very very briefly i [TS]

  have yet to really have it click I've [TS]

  yet to say how oh yeah this does make [TS]

  sense and may be given given a fair shot [TS]

  maybe it would but I don't feel like I [TS]

  want a touchscreen computer to begin [TS]

  with and now you're saying well why [TS]

  wouldn't she want you why not have a [TS]

  touchscreen imac if I was an artist heck [TS]

  yes but as me [TS]

  nay no thanks it's a cool thing to look [TS]

  at you don't want to touch screen laptop [TS]

  like when you phrase it that way like no [TS]

  no [TS]

  who wants to want to touch me I'm just [TS]

  think people find themselves compelled [TS]

  such a screen but no like those things [TS]

  the surface i would say is not a [TS]

  touchscreen laptop it is a tablet with a [TS]

  keyboard apple makes one of those [TS]

  already it's called the ipad it that [TS]

  that's not the ipad is not a touchscreen [TS]

  laptop it is a tablet that comes with [TS]

  the keyboard and using what's the [TS]

  difference well they're both they're [TS]

  both basically the same in use like it's [TS]

  they're open to the same angle this [TS]

  keyboard horizontally and a screen kind [TS]

  of vertically and yes you can touch the [TS]

  screen but you use them in such [TS]

  different ways like well when i'm just [TS]

  using with my hands just not bad but the [TS]

  monitor typing i use the keyboard like I [TS]

  don't know what you want to call that [TS]

  but phrasing it as a lap top of the [TS]

  keyboard sounds like I want to poke my [TS]

  finger is it's not comfortable as [TS]

  Apple's point a million times to to poke [TS]

  a vertical screen is better to use the [TS]

  indirect input devices but i think it's [TS]

  looking at the wrong way he's taking the [TS]

  old the old thing and saying I'm taking [TS]

  the whole thing and modifying by a [TS]

  touchscreen when we take the new thing [TS]

  which is a tablet and modified by adding [TS]

  back a keyboard everyone's okay with it [TS]

  and it's basically the same result and [TS]

  this thing the surface to do i think is [TS]

  like this is not a touchscreen laptop [TS]

  this is also not a touchscreen I'm max [TS]

  I'm max doesn't lay down on the table [TS]

  for you like there's no way he'll you've [TS]

  got in touch screen time that you can't [TS]

  draw on it on an imac the thing doesn't [TS]

  go until it's like 15 degrees and most [TS]

  of them are you know it's close to [TS]

  straight up and down the whole time that [TS]

  is not the service to do the key feature [TS]

  the surface to do that says when you [TS]

  want to do the thing like just like an [TS]

  iPad when you just want to use it like [TS]

  an iPad you don't need the keyboard and [TS]

  the services like when you want to do [TS]

  stuff doesn't involve text input at all [TS]

  like a drawing a picture and doing [TS]

  architectural drawings or like [TS]

  manipulating lines are things in space [TS]

  or whatever and you don't have to use [TS]

  the keyboard lay the whole thing down I [TS]

  think like in the pictures they don't [TS]

  like laying down on top of the keyboard [TS]

  like you doing that see the keyboard [TS]

  it's not there anymore it's like it's [TS]

  the same way the keyboard goes away when [TS]

  you use your iPad like I'm not using the [TS]

  keyboard part of my ipad now i'm just [TS]

  using the ipad part of it and that's in [TS]

  a portable contacts this is the just [TS]

  simply the desktop equivalent of that so [TS]

  i'm not sure what you want to call it [TS]

  and it is weird that Apple's most likely [TS]

  response to this would have to be iOS [TS]

  device and not a mac which is strange [TS]

  because as we talked about in the past [TS]

  Apple's thus far their inability to [TS]

  really get pro level applications to [TS]

  flourish on iOS devices whereas there [TS]

  still kind of doing okay on the mac like [TS]

  that's apples challenge to solve but [TS]

  understand like writ large universe into [TS]

  the future of computing direct [TS]

  manipulation of her task that required [TS]

  on a big gigantic awesome screen the [TS]

  only way that's not going to happen is [TS]

  if a CRNA our advanced to the point [TS]

  where [TS]

  this approach never has a chance to be [TS]

  in you know there's never had this day [TS]

  in the Sun because they are NVR if they [TS]

  get good enough make having a big giant [TS]

  thing that lights up in front of you [TS]

  like archaic but I feel like there will [TS]

  be a time before AR and VR get good [TS]

  where it will be the time of the [TS]

  gigantic touch screens and lay down in [TS]

  front of you and when i'm super old and [TS]

  I'm you know doing computing stuff that [TS]

  doesn't involve typing i would like to [TS]

  have a big gigantic gorgeous screen lay [TS]

  down for me so that I can do stuff on it [TS]

  and also have a keyboard when I do text [TS]

  input and also have to be to recognition [TS]

  also have a bunch of things like pens [TS]

  and stuff I could do on it [TS]

  I'm ready for the Microsoft service to [TS]

  do with 20 years and advancement [TS]

  probably also not a Microsoft you know [TS]

  one thing you mentioned a briefly [TS]

  earlier John is like if they stick with [TS]

  this and that's because of Microsoft you [TS]

  know they throw a lot of spaghetti at [TS]

  the wall they they change strategies [TS]

  often the end and they change desktop [TS]

  initiatives often this product line like [TS]

  many other things Microsoft just tried [TS]

  in recent years might not be good enough [TS]

  for them i might not sell well and offer [TS]

  it might not get a software support it [TS]

  won't sell enough but like you don't you [TS]

  see this is as a like the trend like [TS]

  they've spent all these years making a [TS]

  single OS that accepts all these kinds [TS]

  of input like that's not like a fluke [TS]

  that's not like that's what they've been [TS]

  doing and that's what gives them the [TS]

  option to do things like this I feel [TS]

  like this like that is is this is the [TS]

  culmination of years and years and years [TS]

  of work you can't make this on day one [TS]

  you have to do all the work to make the [TS]

  unified windows it does all the kinds of [TS]

  input to change the windows you want to [TS]

  even be usable with touch to make the [TS]

  device that has a pen that you know that [TS]

  looks like a laptop of the touchscreen [TS]

  you have to do years and used that [TS]

  before you can make this thing so I feel [TS]

  like it's not a fluke sticking with it [TS]

  merely means maybe they were retreat [TS]

  from making their own pcs like maybe a [TS]

  retreat back to the surface or retreat [TS]

  back to tablet or phone sighs things or [TS]

  get out of the business entirely and [TS]

  just do microsoft azure and the license [TS]

  windows the climate because we don't [TS]

  know but I don't I I don't think like [TS]

  they're going to say I actually touching [TS]

  the screen is not a big deal because [TS]

  they just spent so long coming to this [TS]

  point like [TS]

  I feel like they worked hard to to be [TS]

  able to produce a machine like this and [TS]

  this one won't sell well enough to be [TS]

  significant but i think i really think [TS]

  they will take a second and third crack [TS]

  of it and I think of the best microsoft [TS]

  to think of it pains me as I think the [TS]

  head of the company that made the xbox [TS]

  which was a gigantic you know ugly piece [TS]

  of crap but they stuck with it and every [TS]

  new xbox they made it has been better [TS]

  than the previous one and at first i was [TS]

  a really good system but I mean like so [TS]

  i select was huge LOL yep [TS]

  no I i think just because they they've [TS]

  built in all this all this capability [TS]

  for things like touch and pen input you [TS]

  know if if you would have looked at the [TS]

  TV market five years ago you would have [TS]

  thought that 3d TVs were just what [TS]

  everybody wanted and they were taking [TS]

  off like crazy and the novel never [TS]

  thought that obviously the future of TV [TS]

  was going to be 3d but it because if you [TS]

  look at every TV every high-end to even [TS]

  mid range TV you could buy in a store [TS]

  they were all 3d supported TVs but in [TS]

  practice that the reason that feature [TS]

  was being put there was because a [TS]

  stagette industry was trying to add more [TS]

  hardware things to make people upgrade [TS]

  because they weren't upgrading their TVs [TS]

  fast enough so Microsoft i'm putting in [TS]

  all this crazy capability and stuff in [TS]

  the service line all the different input [TS]

  method and everything else it doesn't [TS]

  necessarily mean that everyone is using [TS]

  them or that or that this will be what [TS]

  people how people use their their [TS]

  microsoft computers in the future it [TS]

  might turn out that way but just because [TS]

  the capabilities there just because [TS]

  Microsoft is building all this support [TS]

  and everything is building this hardware [TS]

  that doesn't mean that pc users are [TS]

  going to meaningfully adopted the again [TS]

  they might but that's not a foregone [TS]

  conclusion now is that it's not PC users [TS]

  that are spying this it is creative [TS]

  professional specifically which is a [TS]

  tiny market and out of those people [TS]

  they're not going to buy it because this [TS]

  is like this is like you trying to enter [TS]

  a market that another another company [TS]

  owns or like they're there is already a [TS]

  way to set way to do things and you have [TS]

  a totally different way to do it [TS]

  some people are going to try it but [TS]

  professionals are the least likely to [TS]

  change their ways even if they're [TS]

  already using a Microsoft Windows PC [TS]

  running Photoshop [TS]

  with a tablet whether it's a cintiq or [TS]

  just a plain old tablet even those [TS]

  people aren't gonna buy the surface to [TS]

  do except for on a lark or to be curious [TS]

  about it because they're set in their [TS]

  ways using the Microsoft Windows PC [TS]

  running adobe photoshop with the tablet [TS]

  and they've been doing that the whole [TS]

  career and that's what they like and [TS]

  maybe the curious about this but it's [TS]

  not a big deal but the thing about the [TS]

  future is this is if they stick with it [TS]

  and keep selling this even though [TS]

  they're not making money on it because [TS]

  not enough people buy it [TS]

  eventually i think the market will come [TS]

  around to it because people who start [TS]

  out new might be interested in and try [TS]

  it out and they never got used to using [TS]

  uh you know an online up tablet or the [TS]

  people use antiques might view this is a [TS]

  better cintiq until they try to realize [TS]

  like this antique is a little better [TS]

  visit all these buttons on that they're [TS]

  used to and so that's what it's gonna be [TS]

  a long road and that the other x factor [TS]

  is that people don't like windows or [TS]

  market doesn't like it anyway [TS]

  some people don't happen the way or not [TS]

  and so those people who don't like [TS]

  windows are going to be like well this [TS]

  looks great and all but I don't like [TS]

  Windows i'm not going to do that all the [TS]

  professionals who are using Mac's for [TS]

  example i use photoshop on a mac with [TS]

  the wacom tablet or whatever like you [TS]

  even just talking to see the tweets from [TS]

  dr. wave on on Twitter like is this [TS]

  perfect pixar it's like well actually it [TS]

  picks are people who have these giant [TS]

  tablets drawn to do their 3d work there [TS]

  on like articulated arms and so it's a [TS]

  non-starter for this thing to just [TS]

  beyond a simple hinge that goes on just [TS]

  like that this is just one product and [TS]

  that it doesn't is not as flexible as [TS]

  the products they're already using and [TS]

  they already have a system that works [TS]

  and so this may be novel and interesting [TS]

  but it's not it doesn't work for pics [TS]

  are right but this is this is early days [TS]

  this is a single product from a single [TS]

  company with lots of caveat that are [TS]

  associated with it so i'm not i'm not [TS]

  going to say that this is going to make [TS]

  microsoft the king of the creative [TS]

  professionals but they do have a head [TS]

  start on people and if they keep [TS]

  iterating on this product in this idea [TS]

  and this concept for years and years and [TS]

  years and keep going with this whole OS [TS]

  strategy with touch and maybe make [TS]

  Windows little bit nicer and the process [TS]

  and no one else does anything because [TS]

  who else is there is like linux is going [TS]

  to take over the creative professional [TS]

  market right it's them an apple [TS]

  basically at this point and if apple [TS]

  doesn't move it gives Microsoft time to [TS]

  try and fail and try and fail and try [TS]

  and fail over and over [TS]

  again eventually they'll get pretty [TS]

  decent and now basically win by default [TS]

  if Apple never makes an ipad bigger than [TS]

  12.5 inches and never makes it back like [TS]

  this [TS]

  thanks 143 sponsors this week betterment [TS]

  audible and square space and we will see [TS]

  you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  death was accidental [TS]

  Jonathan [TS]

  research Marco and Casey would know [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  and you can find the show know today p [TS]

  dot and if your twitter follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

  syracuse it [TS]

  you wanna talk about salads ago and I'm [TS]

  sorry that's not how you pronounce that [TS]

  I had time to research this news broke a [TS]

  couple hours before we started recording [TS]

  that Sal's to go in who he was he was [TS]

  the kind of product manager the head of [TS]

  of mac OS automation technologies so [TS]

  that would include things like Apple [TS]

  script Apple events automator and [TS]

  apparently he has he has been let go of [TS]

  Apple his position has been eliminated [TS]

  so that basically it sure seems like [TS]

  Apple is no longer going to have a head [TS]

  of automation of of apps on Mac OS and a [TS]

  lot of longtime mac users are taking [TS]

  this news to be possibly a pretty bad [TS]

  sign [TS]

  do we wanna talk about this i mean we [TS]

  haven't had time to look into it much I [TS]

  liked it I know it and I know Sal from [TS]

  my reputation and by all the WBC [TS]

  sessions I've seen with them and i have [TS]

  met him in person a couple times a long [TS]

  trade remember me but yeah i'm pretty [TS]

  sure i have to he looks very familiar [TS]

  yeah he knows people you recognize their [TS]

  couple aspects that one is it Sal is [TS]

  just a very nice gregarious charismatic [TS]

  smart person he's got charisma UCM [TS]

  especially if you're a nerd and you're [TS]

  like attracted to smart people right who [TS]

  are interesting and dynamic and have had [TS]

  opinions and can express them well [TS]

  that's out so people who are longtime [TS]

  Apple fans and who have you know knowing [TS]

  him professionally or by reputation or [TS]

  buy his products or presentations are [TS]

  sad to see somebody that everybody liked [TS]

  not be at the company right that so that [TS]

  that's not you know unquestionable [TS]

  aspect of this entire thing because if [TS]

  he was a jerk that everybody hated this [TS]

  would not be as big a story right and [TS]

  then the other part is what you just [TS]

  said about automation automation on the [TS]

  mac which people too short to say like [TS]

  Oh Sally is that Apple script guy that's [TS]

  a reasonable summary of him if you want [TS]

  to go there there's much more to it than [TS]

  that you can read all the stuff one has [TS]

  a website that will put a link in the [TS]

  show notes it's not just Apple script is [TS]

  also shell scripting and apple events [TS]

  that Apple scripting is based on you can [TS]

  do it also different languages and [TS]

  there's the the tooling and involved [TS]

  with that even as recently as like last [TS]

  year the year before that they finally [TS]

  had like a library / framework support [TS]

  for apple scripts you can write [TS]

  applescript libraries and use them like [TS]

  it was kind of stuck in amber for a long [TS]

  time not really getting any better but [TS]

  not really getting any worse but was [TS]

  still an essential part of so many [TS]

  professionals workflows like they would [TS]

  use Apple script to automate the things [TS]

  that they did and it was important to [TS]

  them for their professional applications [TS]

  that were using to have apple script [TS]

  support to be able to do this [TS]

  automator and in you know in the US 10 [TS]

  age was this other thing like regular [TS]

  people design sets of actions without [TS]

  having to be programmers you know so [TS]

  automatically that you string together [TS]

  do this and do that and do that without [TS]

  having to like learn languages even the [TS]

  languages as simple as Apple script and [TS]

  his position being eliminated [TS]

  I don't know enough about the internal [TS]

  arrangement but it could just be that [TS]

  like the division has merged for some [TS]

  other division there was another person [TS]

  that Apple likes better who's setting [TS]

  that division so he's out and that [TS]

  person is in but it could also be that [TS]

  and this would totally fit with Apple [TS]

  recent moves and hasn't collecting the [TS]

  mac pro and having difficulty making pro [TS]

  apps and canning aperture and although [TS]

  the stuff that they see using our users [TS]

  creating automations win anything even [TS]

  approaching a programmer like [TS]

  environment whether it be HyperCard rest [TS]

  in peace or automator or writing apples [TS]

  your people skills that is not the [TS]

  future of computing it's too complicated [TS]

  regular people don't want to do it the [TS]

  professionals who want to do it really [TS]

  causing more problems themselves and [TS]

  they're solving really should just allow [TS]

  us to define the workflows by [TS]

  hard-coding into our applications or [TS]

  just buy another application does what [TS]

  they want to stop trying to program it [TS]

  or whatever therefore having an [TS]

  automation division and a product [TS]

  manager of automation that's not the [TS]

  future of the company that's not the [TS]

  future of the mac we don't need that [TS]

  anymore it's a waste of time and [TS]

  resources and it's holding back our [TS]

  other partners that's like the doomsday [TS]

  scenario most pessimistic scenario is [TS]

  that automation is being the emphasized [TS]

  in the same way that writing batch [TS]

  scripts would be emphasized or or you [TS]

  know having to provide programs yourself [TS]

  would be de-emphasized right home and in [TS]

  some it makes some sense like [TS]

  that the market progress has been be [TS]

  emphasizing the need for people who use [TS]

  computers to do stuff like that it used [TS]

  to be you had to enter your programs by [TS]

  typing from the back of a magazine and [TS]

  basically that's how you got your [TS]

  program to run right and no one does [TS]

  that anymore now we have the app store [TS]

  right and a lot of the things that we [TS]

  use automation for hopefully are moved [TS]

  by the fact that programs are just [TS]

  better or the internet does it better or [TS]

  even something as simple as like to [TS]

  thank for iOS workflows get workflow [TS]

  right its third-party opportunity [TS]

  workflows just fine apples need to do we [TS]

  just need to provide the capabilities [TS]

  and apple event itself you can argue [TS]

  with the fact that Apple that's pretty [TS]

  damn old and creaky hit this if you know [TS]

  it could be that it's all being replaced [TS]

  by some bold new vision of automation [TS]

  for the modern age in the same way that [TS]

  Apple script replaced everything that [TS]

  came before it but as with all things [TS]

  apple we don't know big black hole [TS]

  you have no idea what they're planning [TS]

  and we just have fear uncertainty and [TS]

  doubt and once again this is all in the [TS]

  context of Apple fans being grumpy for a [TS]

  bunch of related reasons so it can feel [TS]

  bad but i'm not entirely ready to go all [TS]

  doing loom on this just because it could [TS]

  just be that it's time to turn a new [TS]

  page because Sal and all the texts tech [TS]

  that he was working on and especially [TS]

  foundational attack like Apple events [TS]

  has never really felt like it is fit [TS]

  into the OS 10 world so best-case [TS]

  scenario they're rethinking this all and [TS]

  saying what is automation mean you know [TS]

  from here going forward doesn't mean [TS]

  Apple events or is there better overall [TS]

  system for automating things on the [TS]

  computer so worst-case Tim Cook says [TS]

  anything stupid when you do that anymore [TS]

  people just tap their me little fingers [TS]

  on screens and not worry about it [TS]

  yeah I never really i never really wrote [TS]

  much apple script I did real early on [TS]

  when I first got my mac to do i don't [TS]

  know like some silly basic things I [TS]

  forget exactly what it was for was like [TS]

  maybe setting default printer or [TS]

  something like that and this was like in [TS]

  two thousand eight ish and I personally [TS]

  never really gone back and had a need to [TS]

  write more now I know there's tons of [TS]

  people who write it a lot and use it [TS]

  heavily but [TS]

  for me this this is not something I'm [TS]

  terribly worried about and not something [TS]

  that i use terribly often but it also [TS]

  does make me a little bit that if this [TS]

  is a canary in a coal mine in the coal [TS]

  mine for automation in OS for mac OS it [TS]

  bummed me out if that went away but I [TS]

  wouldn't say would necessarily affect my [TS]

  day-to-day either [TS]

  I mean it's more about like it's a it's [TS]

  a very very powerful set of features you [TS]

  know what Apple script the language is [TS]

  kind of you know that's just the [TS]

  implementation detail of it there's but [TS]

  the the system on which it's based that [TS]

  exposes Apple events and and control of [TS]

  applications automation about of other [TS]

  applications you know through this [TS]

  entire API that can be any language you [TS]

  need to be and there's a there's many [TS]

  things that that exposed to as different [TS]

  languages like like at the jazz talk [TS]

  makes it javascript there's a few other [TS]

  things like that you know it's it's more [TS]

  than this that feature set while it is [TS]

  used by probably a very tiny percentage [TS]

  of mac users the amount of power it [TS]

  gives is so great that you know this [TS]

  really the mac OS one of the things i [TS]

  love so much about mac OS is that it is [TS]

  just so incredibly powerful [TS]

  I mean that it deeply like it is [TS]

  incredibly powerful if you know how did [TS]

  how did how to use its power like there [TS]

  isn't there it is it is in every sense [TS]

  of the word a true workstation OS and as [TS]

  I said my macpro post like OS 10 is [TS]

  awesome and to remove or or two to let [TS]

  rot or to deprecate a major area of of [TS]

  power from it [TS]

  I can see why people are worried about [TS]

  that and Johnny no I agree it it does [TS]

  seem like things are moving away from [TS]

  that and from that direction in consumer [TS]

  software design mostly by Apple's doing [TS]

  by the way I expected it's not like the [TS]

  whole interview is mostly Apple doing [TS]

  this but it was in many ways there's to [TS]

  lose and they really had amazing [TS]

  automation features that were fairly [TS]

  accessible to people like programmers [TS]

  will always find ways to automate things [TS]

  the most extreme power users will always [TS]

  find ways to automate things but one of [TS]

  the things that made this area of OS 10 [TS]

  so powerful is that it was really quite [TS]

  accessible to lots of people a whole lot [TS]

  of people who are not programmers were [TS]

  able to use things like automator to [TS]

  automate really you know really [TS]

  time-consuming tasks that then freed [TS]

  them up to to have the computer do with [TS]

  computers supposed to do you know that [TS]

  the kind of power that usually you have [TS]

  to be a programmer to have many people [TS]

  were given this power by the by this [TS]

  system is infrastructure so the loss of [TS]

  it I i think is certainly cause for [TS]

  concern if if you love the mac operating [TS]

  system as much as i do for for the for [TS]

  this power that it's always had and you [TS]

  know as like I'll be fine because i'm a [TS]

  programmer i can use bash and scrape [TS]

  something up or actually write a write [TS]

  an app to do things if I need to [TS]

  automate them which i do all the time I [TS]

  hardly ever use these technologies [TS]

  because i usually just right shell [TS]

  scripts and stuff instead but a lot of [TS]

  people use these I think and even get [TS]

  percentage-wise I'm sure it's very small [TS]

  but still that still could be like [TS]

  thousands of people who rely on this to [TS]

  to save them like hours of time a week [TS]

  or two do something that would just be [TS]

  impractical to do otherwise [TS]

  so yeah you know I I feel the word this [TS]

  that being said we still there's a lot [TS]

  about this that we still don't know you [TS]

  know all we know is that this this guy [TS]

  with his job was cut apparently we don't [TS]

  know why we don't know you know maybe [TS]

  they're just reorganizing the Department [TS]

  of whatever it said I don't know how [TS]

  this is organized decide maybe that [TS]

  maybe just you know a reorg maybe it's [TS]

  like you know weird cost-cutting [TS]

  measures maybe it might come back to [TS]

  later who knows it [TS]

  maybe it was just like a personal [TS]

  conflict maybe there's a new team doing [TS]

  basically like maybe also there's [TS]

  overlap because right you know we have [TS]

  this automation system but maybe this [TS]

  with people like I told you want you to [TS]

  be able to script your applications with [TS]

  weapon we have this project and maybe [TS]

  that project wins and so this will be [TS]

  the legacy version of automation and [TS]

  then this will come another one I was [TS]

  thinking about in terms of how do you [TS]

  get people who can't program to be able [TS]

  to do simple automation stuff [TS]

  I always feel like the people who are [TS]

  good at using automator an apple script [TS]

  are either basically programmers are [TS]

  ready and they don't know it or could be [TS]

  programmers within 15 minutes because to [TS]

  use even though the automator is way [TS]

  easier than coding the people who use it [TS]

  as part of the job they they eventually [TS]

  can't avoid basically becoming programs [TS]

  they don't know their programs i think [TS]

  they just click buttons but they're [TS]

  learning conditionals loops logic [TS]

  input/output like that they're just [TS]

  learning what programmers would consider [TS]

  to be an awful programming languages [TS]

  just clicking a bunch of buttons around [TS]

  right which is like let me just write [TS]

  the code right but that's because he [TS]

  also excel Wizards yeah exactly right [TS]

  but another way you could do that is how [TS]

  do you have how do you get [TS]

  non-programmers to be able to make the [TS]

  computer to do busy work that [TS]

  programmers know how to make them do [TS]

  another way to do it would be to have a [TS]

  conversation with the computer and [TS]

  describe what you want to have the [TS]

  computer do it so a much much much much [TS]

  much much much more advanced Syria you [TS]

  could say serious discussion i want you [TS]

  to take all the when photos arrived in [TS]

  his folder i want you to take all that [TS]

  your lieutenant named them yet [TS]

  rename them with the date and and you [TS]

  know tag them with this label and put [TS]

  them into this folder something you [TS]

  could do with hazel or with automator [TS]

  resize them all to be this size or [TS]

  whatever blah blah and Syria we go back [TS]

  and forth you mean like this giving you [TS]

  a preview what you're going to say ok if [TS]

  i was to do it this is what i would do [TS]

  is the book what you wanted like all it [TS]

  would be doing behind the scenes using [TS]

  the automation machinery that's already [TS]

  there and all the automation you're able [TS]

  to do for like images easy because they [TS]

  have so many tools like resizing images [TS]

  or are you know changing the EXIF data [TS]

  or renaming files like that's all [TS]

  easy to do all you need to do is figure [TS]

  out a way to express the computer what [TS]

  you want and if you can have a [TS]

  conversation with even a pretty stupid [TS]

  series that is never less hundreds of [TS]

  times smarter than it is now to go back [TS]

  and forth eventually series could figure [TS]

  out essentially here's the automator [TS]

  action would have built only we built it [TS]

  together by having a conversation that [TS]

  is certainly a much more advanced much [TS]

  brighter and I think attainable future [TS]

  of letting all people automate stuff so [TS]

  for all we know maybe the future [TS]

  automation is [TS]

  and we're all wrapped up in the series [TS]

  team and they have grand plans to do [TS]

  that I wish them luck because so far [TS]

  they haven't really shown me anything [TS]

  but it could be done and so maybe you [TS]

  know like things that we don't know [TS]

  what's going on Apple it could just be [TS]

  rear or we could just be emerging type [TS]

  thing it but I i have i have hope that [TS]

  even if Apple has decided that every [TS]

  single technology the salads on his [TS]

  website is the past of automation that I [TS]

  have some hope that Apple believes that [TS]

  there is something else that is the [TS]

  future of automation because like you [TS]

  said Marko people want to use their [TS]

  computers to do complicated things but [TS]

  if they're not programmers don't want to [TS]

  become programmers that we have to find [TS]

  a way to let them do that like a gentle [TS]

  slope to get them to be able to do that [TS]

  because they will be happier with their [TS]

  computers and we'll find more [TS]

  indispensable even if they good for [TS]

  something as simple as you know when i [TS]

  get an email like this extract the image [TS]

  attachment put in this folder rename it [TS]

  this way and then send me a text message [TS]

  about it or do whatever like when you [TS]

  show [TS]

  normal people that they can make some of [TS]

  that work they think it is the greatest [TS]

  thing in the world because they're [TS]

  basically like someone's on the chat [TS]

  rooms like a gateway drug to programming [TS]

  or they never actually go through the [TS]

  gate they just stay outside of and go [TS]

  this is great my computer knows what I [TS]

  want [TS]

  which i think is great so I I think [TS]

  they're still need for non-programmers [TS]

  to be able to automate things in their [TS]

  computer but i'm willing to believe that [TS]

  there is a better way [TS]