The Incomparable

00:00:00 ◼   ► the uncomfortable radio theatre is [TS]

00:00:01 ◼   ► coming very very soon and now let's [TS]

00:00:05 ◼   ► model spread ship division time for the [TS]

00:00:08 ◼   ► fall most famous words and racing galaxy [TS]

00:00:13 ◼   ► Scouts start your engines at five words [TS]

00:00:19 ◼   ► it's just an expression go to the [TS]

00:00:21 ◼   ► incomparable calm / radio or search [TS]

00:00:23 ◼   ► itunes to subscribe today the [TS]

00:00:27 ◼   ► incomparable number 264 September 2015 [TS]

00:00:36 ◼   ► welcome back everybody to the [TS]

00:00:37 ◼   ► uncountable i'm your host Jason Steele [TS]

00:00:38 ◼   ► we like to talk about books on this [TS]

00:00:40 ◼   ► podcast and we like to talk about nerdy [TS]

00:00:42 ◼   ► things on this podcast we're going to [TS]

00:00:43 ◼   ► mix it up [TS]

00:00:44 ◼   ► we also like sometimes talk about all [TS]

00:00:45 ◼   ► things are going to put all those [TS]

00:00:47 ◼   ► together in a bowl and spin them around [TS]

00:00:48 ◼   ► what you're going to get his old nerdy [TS]

00:00:50 ◼   ► books about technology from the earlier [TS]

00:00:53 ◼   ► days of technology this is a really a [TS]

00:00:55 ◼   ► very clever idea for a topic that was [TS]

00:00:57 ◼   ► brought to us by Lisa Schmeisser herself [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► who is here [TS]

00:01:01 ◼   ► hi Lisa hi it's a pleasure to be here [TS]

00:01:03 ◼   ► yes well youyou called it and we made it [TS]

00:01:06 ◼   ► happen eventually [TS]

00:01:07 ◼   ► so we're going to hear you're here we're [TS]

00:01:09 ◼   ► going to talk about books such as [TS]

00:01:12 ◼   ► hackers micro surfs the Cuckoo's egg and [TS]

00:01:16 ◼   ► soul of a new machine [TS]

00:01:17 ◼   ► these are books from an era where we [TS]

00:01:19 ◼   ► were all just sort of figuring out about [TS]

00:01:21 ◼   ► technology and books were some fictional [TS]

00:01:23 ◼   ► some non-fictional bringing to us this [TS]

00:01:26 ◼   ► crazy new world of computers and the [TS]

00:01:28 ◼   ► internet and some of them are actually I [TS]

00:01:31 ◼   ► think all of them are quite fascinating [TS]

00:01:33 ◼   ► and some of them are probably worth your [TS]

00:01:34 ◼   ► time even today joining me and Lisa to [TS]

00:01:37 ◼   ► talk about these nerdy books are some [TS]

00:01:40 ◼   ► nerdy people i'm going to say look at [TS]

00:01:44 ◼   ► lower is out there hello hello [TS]

00:01:47 ◼   ► I i will cop to being some deeper some [TS]

00:01:49 ◼   ► nerdy person [TS]

00:01:51 ◼   ► Monty Ashley also out their employee of [TS]

00:01:54 ◼   ► a large technology company but who's [TS]

00:01:55 ◼   ► counting contractor for a large checks [TS]

00:01:58 ◼   ► are companies do all right you wouldn't [TS]

00:02:00 ◼   ► be a nerd if you did in fact my contract [TS]

00:02:02 ◼   ► contractor actually that says it all [TS]

00:02:04 ◼   ► doesn't it that yes that is his nineties [TS]

00:02:06 ◼   ► it's not his tech industry is possible [TS]

00:02:09 ◼   ► today's and I you know I know that this [TS]

00:02:13 ◼   ► person knew Jeff bezos's mailman's [TS]

00:02:16 ◼   ► brother it's cool and Fleischmann excuse [TS]

00:02:18 ◼   ► me its basis is jeff basis mailman's [TS]

00:02:23 ◼   ► brother I'm not mentioned in any of the [TS]

00:02:26 ◼   ► books so far as i know that we're [TS]

00:02:27 ◼   ► covering tonight but you were your [TS]

00:02:29 ◼   ► you've been present we've got some [TS]

00:02:31 ◼   ► people from the from the Seattle [TS]

00:02:33 ◼   ► technology sphere here which is kind of [TS]

00:02:37 ◼   ► fascinating to sew with somewhere where [TS]

00:02:39 ◼   ► should we start I will admit that I i [TS]

00:02:41 ◼   ► re-read one of these or are skimmed one [TS]

00:02:45 ◼   ► of these and haven't read the other two [TS]

00:02:46 ◼   ► who so guidance [TS]

00:02:48 ◼   ► start by said the reason I wanted to do [TS]

00:02:50 ◼   ► is likely as wasn't even sure the reason [TS]

00:02:53 ◼   ► i wanted his pipe podcast is [TS]

00:02:54 ◼   ► microservice was published 20 years ago [TS]

00:02:56 ◼   ► this July and it was kind of perhaps I'm [TS]

00:03:00 ◼   ► overstating the cultural impact but it [TS]

00:03:02 ◼   ► was kind of like a postcard from the the [TS]

00:03:05 ◼   ► future or rather the future that was [TS]

00:03:07 ◼   ► being shaped up and down the west coast [TS]

00:03:09 ◼   ► and little tech enclaves all over the [TS]

00:03:10 ◼   ► place and what I can remember is over [TS]

00:03:14 ◼   ► the year or two after was published [TS]

00:03:15 ◼   ► everywhere in the world wide web someone [TS]

00:03:17 ◼   ► was saying i want to live in a nerd [TS]

00:03:18 ◼   ► house like they have a micro service or [TS]

00:03:19 ◼   ► they worse or they were saying identify [TS]

00:03:21 ◼   ► with sunset from microservice alright [TS]

00:03:23 ◼   ► actually what was on a date one time [TS]

00:03:24 ◼   ► with someone who's like what are your [TS]

00:03:25 ◼   ► five jeopardy categories and I was like [TS]

00:03:27 ◼   ► did you get that from microservices like [TS]

00:03:29 ◼   ► I got it from microsoft so [TS]

00:03:31 ◼   ► oh so it was um one of those minor works [TS]

00:03:37 ◼   ► of a cultural cannon in the nineteen [TS]

00:03:38 ◼   ► nineties and then I got to thinking [TS]

00:03:39 ◼   ► about what are the other books that I [TS]

00:03:42 ◼   ► knew that got passed around like the [TS]

00:03:44 ◼   ► engineering departments of startups or [TS]

00:03:46 ◼   ► maybe they're percolated through through [TS]

00:03:48 ◼   ► offices throughout South the market and [TS]

00:03:50 ◼   ► once they came up with things like the [TS]

00:03:52 ◼   ► Cuckoo's egg by clifford stole hackers [TS]

00:03:54 ◼   ► by steven levy a friend of mine who is a [TS]

00:03:58 ◼   ► PhD in electrical engineering said the [TS]

00:04:00 ◼   ► one that he considers to be the vertex [TS]

00:04:02 ◼   ► of them all is Tracy Kidder's the soul [TS]

00:04:06 ◼   ► of a new machine and so I thought it [TS]

00:04:08 ◼   ► would be kind of fun to talk about like [TS]

00:04:10 ◼   ► the tech cultural the textbook canada [TS]

00:04:12 ◼   ► the nineteen nineties like the [TS]

00:04:13 ◼   ► literature that may have shaped people [TS]

00:04:15 ◼   ► who worked on level one point out and [TS]

00:04:17 ◼   ► what books are kind of like music [TS]

00:04:19 ◼   ► artifact today and what books are [TS]

00:04:21 ◼   ► actually pretty handy to read because [TS]

00:04:23 ◼   ► they were either really pressure or [TS]

00:04:25 ◼   ► they're great historical record for [TS]

00:04:27 ◼   ► explaining the era [TS]

00:04:28 ◼   ► alright thank God I think that's good i [TS]

00:04:30 ◼   ► I'll tell you and in rereading the [TS]

00:04:32 ◼   ► Cuckoo's egg [TS]

00:04:33 ◼   ► ok which I always I always liked I that [TS]

00:04:36 ◼   ► took me back to to that era I have lots [TS]

00:04:41 ◼   ► of opinions about it but I don't know I [TS]

00:04:42 ◼   ► feel like I feel like maybe [TS]

00:04:43 ◼   ► microservices the place to start here [TS]

00:04:46 ◼   ► Lisa since that was here inspired all of [TS]

00:04:48 ◼   ► this and i have I haven't read it [TS]

00:04:51 ◼   ► I'mI'm intellects for even roll here not [TS]

00:04:54 ◼   ► seen it not read it so I'm going to [TS]

00:04:55 ◼   ► leave it to you all to discuss this is [TS]

00:04:59 ◼   ► douglas coupland right well yeah this is [TS]

00:05:01 ◼   ► done [TS]

00:05:01 ◼   ► so do you want basically like a brief [TS]

00:05:03 ◼   ► this is what the book is about why I [TS]

00:05:04 ◼   ► remember that would be a great place [TS]

00:05:06 ◼   ► alright so in a nutshell the book is [TS]

00:05:09 ◼   ► about a group of Microsoft employees who [TS]

00:05:12 ◼   ► spend who are you know energetic and [TS]

00:05:16 ◼   ► engaged and passionate about their work [TS]

00:05:18 ◼   ► but not particularly ambitious and not [TS]

00:05:20 ◼   ► particularly self-aware and over the [TS]

00:05:22 ◼   ► course of the book they all leave [TS]

00:05:23 ◼   ► Microsoft they called us together to [TS]

00:05:25 ◼   ► work in a start-up and it is about them [TS]

00:05:28 ◼   ► turning into they'll become real boys [TS]

00:05:30 ◼   ► and girls as it were [TS]

00:05:31 ◼   ► that's basically the whole Locker the [TS]

00:05:32 ◼   ► book is its young adults learn how you [TS]

00:05:35 ◼   ► can also learn who they are and what [TS]

00:05:37 ◼   ► makes it such an uncanny artifact of the [TS]

00:05:40 ◼   ► time is that [TS]

00:05:42 ◼   ► Copeland spends a lot of the book trying [TS]

00:05:44 ◼   ► to meditate the boundaries between your [TS]

00:05:47 ◼   ► offline life versus your virtual your [TS]

00:05:50 ◼   ► online life because there's a subplot [TS]

00:05:51 ◼   ► that involves two of the women who work [TS]

00:05:54 ◼   ► in the company putting together an [TS]

00:05:55 ◼   ► online coding coding group called chicks [TS]

00:05:57 ◼   ► to raise the profile of girls in the [TS]

00:05:59 ◼   ► tech industry and the book is actually a [TS]

00:06:03 ◼   ► series of journal entries that the lead [TS]

00:06:06 ◼   ► guide the building protagonist makes on [TS]

00:06:07 ◼   ► on his computer the whole time he's [TS]

00:06:10 ◼   ► under the spell of a genius who seems to [TS]

00:06:12 ◼   ► be more comfortable interfacing with [TS]

00:06:14 ◼   ► computers than with people and another [TS]

00:06:16 ◼   ► thing Copeland does he punctuates each [TS]

00:06:18 ◼   ► chapter of the list of seemingly random [TS]

00:06:20 ◼   ► words and he also has the conceit where [TS]

00:06:22 ◼   ► he introduces advice but I saying here [TS]

00:06:24 ◼   ► or there jeopardy cafeteria the Jeopardy [TS]

00:06:26 ◼   ► category is that define them and when [TS]

00:06:28 ◼   ► he's also doing is trying to make a [TS]

00:06:29 ◼   ► point about how culture influences [TS]

00:06:30 ◼   ► technology and vice versa and how [TS]

00:06:33 ◼   ► difficult it can be to figure out who [TS]

00:06:35 ◼   ► you are if you hide in technology have [TS]

00:06:36 ◼   ► to kind of flip it around and make it [TS]

00:06:38 ◼   ► something that works for you not vice [TS]

00:06:39 ◼   ► versa other so so with that said about [TS]

00:06:43 ◼   ► their hands throughout their head has [TS]

00:06:44 ◼   ► comments about Microsoft's because I [TS]

00:06:46 ◼   ► don't is everybody else either either [TS]

00:06:48 ◼   ► read it [TS]

00:06:49 ◼   ► iraq to blend in a little extra candy 10 [TS]

00:06:52 ◼   ► that's funny because it was well here's [TS]

00:06:54 ◼   ► the thing well here's my comment is I [TS]

00:06:55 ◼   ► moved to Seattle in 1993 and it was no [TS]

00:06:59 ◼   ► thought of as a bit of a Boeing town [TS]

00:07:01 ◼   ► and and Boeing was the big engineering [TS]

00:07:03 ◼   ► culture and there are no books that have [TS]

00:07:05 ◼   ► entered the popular kind of [TS]

00:07:06 ◼   ► consciousness about bowing as a company [TS]

00:07:08 ◼   ► there are books about a plenty of them [TS]

00:07:10 ◼   ► but boeing was full of engineers are [TS]

00:07:12 ◼   ► tens of thousands of Engineers you know [TS]

00:07:14 ◼   ► civil engineers and and all kinds of [TS]

00:07:17 ◼   ► other no idea of the Aeronautics and so [TS]

00:07:19 ◼   ► forth and they made huge amounts of [TS]

00:07:21 ◼   ► money to create salaries they sort of [TS]

00:07:23 ◼   ► set a bit of the Seattle culture and [TS]

00:07:25 ◼   ► then we have the dot-com infection when [TS]

00:07:28 ◼   ► Amazon fact that grew and is expanded to [TS]

00:07:30 ◼   ► cover all available land mass but [TS]

00:07:33 ◼   ► Microsoft was there in the middle you [TS]

00:07:34 ◼   ► know there was a local guy another local [TS]

00:07:36 ◼   ► guy came back and they have their [TS]

00:07:38 ◼   ► sojourn in the wilderness and came here [TS]

00:07:39 ◼   ► and found a company and and built it up [TS]

00:07:42 ◼   ► and so when I got here in 93 worse we [TS]

00:07:44 ◼   ► were not only thousands of Microsoft [TS]

00:07:46 ◼   ► employees there's almost a hundred [TS]

00:07:47 ◼   ► thousand now worldwide but Microsoft's [TS]

00:07:51 ◼   ► kind of hit too close to home I was like [TS]

00:07:52 ◼   ► I'm living in this milieu everybody [TS]

00:07:55 ◼   ► around me is working for microsoft and [TS]

00:07:57 ◼   ► I'm going out in that field so I never [TS]

00:07:59 ◼   ► ever ready because i felt i was in it so [TS]

00:08:01 ◼   ► that's my perspective the book is kind [TS]

00:08:03 ◼   ► of notable because it sort of posits [TS]

00:08:05 ◼   ► that you can not have boundaries between [TS]

00:08:07 ◼   ► your work life and your social life that [TS]

00:08:09 ◼   ► if you do that you can basically just [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► have one seamless sloshy thing where [TS]

00:08:13 ◼   ► everything is somehow innately [TS]

00:08:14 ◼   ► fulfilling and so I think it was one of [TS]

00:08:17 ◼   ► the building blocks of the myth of you [TS]

00:08:20 ◼   ► know rewarding fulfilling start startup [TS]

00:08:22 ◼   ► culture and clinical work life balance [TS]

00:08:23 ◼   ► because Copelan essentially spins this [TS]

00:08:26 ◼   ► fairy tale that you can find a job and a [TS]

00:08:28 ◼   ► company full of people who will [TS]

00:08:29 ◼   ► automatically be your best friend and [TS]

00:08:31 ◼   ► you can find romantic fulfillment that [TS]

00:08:32 ◼   ► way to and I think a lot of people were [TS]

00:08:35 ◼   ► really beguiled by that idea because [TS]

00:08:38 ◼   ► it's so it's like college accepted me I [TS]

00:08:40 ◼   ► get a paycheck i read this book in 1995 [TS]

00:08:44 ◼   ► shortly after I moved to Seattle them [TS]

00:08:47 ◼   ► anymore and right right i'm working at [TS]

00:08:52 ◼   ► Microsoft right now but I've only been [TS]

00:08:55 ◼   ► doing that for about a year but i was [TS]

00:08:57 ◼   ► also working at Microsoft in 1996 or so [TS]

00:09:01 ◼   ► actually no 1995 that I was doing [TS]

00:09:05 ◼   ► microsoft technical support for the [TS]

00:09:07 ◼   ► launch of windows 95 it was part of my [TS]

00:09:10 ◼   ► job to answer the phone and say hi [TS]

00:09:12 ◼   ► thanks for calling microsoft technical [TS]

00:09:13 ◼   ► support [TS]

00:09:14 ◼   ► what [TS]

00:09:14 ◼   ► and the program do you have a problem [TS]

00:09:15 ◼   ► with and then when people told me I was [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► then tried to rout them to either the [TS]

00:09:18 ◼   ► visual basic engineers or the Microsoft [TS]

00:09:21 ◼   ► Bob engineers depending on where [TS]

00:09:24 ◼   ► people's problems were i gotta say i [TS]

00:09:26 ◼   ► never thought micro serfs felt accurate [TS]

00:09:31 ◼   ► at all like for one thing it describes a [TS]

00:09:35 ◼   ► Microsoft where everybody uses [TS]

00:09:36 ◼   ► Macintosh's for everything which is not [TS]

00:09:40 ◼   ► my experience but also just the degree [TS]

00:09:44 ◼   ► to which everybody lives microsoft in [TS]

00:09:50 ◼   ► the book and lives with the people they [TS]

00:09:53 ◼   ► work with ya drastically overstated my [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► experience having said that it's super [TS]

00:10:00 ◼   ► fun for me to read it now because [TS]

00:10:02 ◼   ► Copeland did a lot of research on the [TS]

00:10:05 ◼   ► area clearly because he's talking about [TS]

00:10:08 ◼   ► the fries over there and like that price [TS]

00:10:11 ◼   ► is still over there it's awful now or [TS]

00:10:13 ◼   ► there's one line where he says microsoft [TS]

00:10:15 ◼   ► is so huge they have 25 buildings and [TS]

00:10:19 ◼   ► that's 20 years ago now I I work in a [TS]

00:10:22 ◼   ► building labeled a because they ran out [TS]

00:10:25 ◼   ► of numbers is my theory it's just I'm [TS]

00:10:29 ◼   ► basically on the main campus but it's [TS]

00:10:31 ◼   ► still incredibly huge and you never see [TS]

00:10:33 ◼   ► anything on the other side of the campus [TS]

00:10:36 ◼   ► so I I at this point to me it's a [TS]

00:10:39 ◼   ► historical look at the size of Microsoft [TS]

00:10:42 ◼   ► 20 years ago but it's like a recruitment [TS]

00:10:46 ◼   ► pamphlet from back in the day and then [TS]

00:10:48 ◼   ► part way through the book they all leave [TS]

00:10:50 ◼   ► Microsoft anyway and I don't feel [TS]

00:10:52 ◼   ► vaguely let down by that because clearly [TS]

00:10:54 ◼   ► to me [TS]

00:10:55 ◼   ► coupland doesn't really care about [TS]

00:10:56 ◼   ► microsoft he cares about Silicon Valley [TS]

00:10:58 ◼   ► nerds need ya to start some up and back [TS]

00:11:01 ◼   ► off then get them down to where he cares [TS]

00:11:03 ◼   ► about as quickly as possible [TS]

00:11:04 ◼   ► they also have like a cult of [TS]

00:11:05 ◼   ► personality around bill gates because [TS]

00:11:07 ◼   ► remember he writes the book around the [TS]

00:11:08 ◼   ► time that bill gates got married to [TS]

00:11:09 ◼   ► melinda and there's a lot of fixation on [TS]

00:11:11 ◼   ► that too so that there's a sort of Bill [TS]

00:11:14 ◼   ► Gates is this you know he's a [TS]

00:11:16 ◼   ► combination of patron saints super [TS]

00:11:17 ◼   ► villain in their in their minds as well [TS]

00:11:19 ◼   ► which i thought was a a weird choice but [TS]

00:11:22 ◼   ► i guess thats that's not entirely [TS]

00:11:24 ◼   ► accurate i mean now now is it [TS]

00:11:27 ◼   ► giant house that looks a bit like a [TS]

00:11:29 ◼   ► supervillain later [TS]

00:11:30 ◼   ► oh my god really and well I mean he's [TS]

00:11:33 ◼   ► super rich me as a house of the future [TS]

00:11:34 ◼   ► so you know why wouldn't you [TS]

00:11:36 ◼   ► but also i have heard people say I i saw [TS]

00:11:40 ◼   ► bill on campus once [TS]

00:11:42 ◼   ► oh wow yeah which is why wouldn't he I'm [TS]

00:11:45 ◼   ► sure he's got an office here somewhere [TS]

00:11:47 ◼   ► let me know i'll say right off the bat I [TS]

00:11:49 ◼   ► am NOT a douglas coupland fan I this is [TS]

00:11:53 ◼   ► this is the only douglas coupland book [TS]

00:11:55 ◼   ► i've liked and and i would say [TS]

00:11:58 ◼   ► dramatically overstated is a good [TS]

00:12:00 ◼   ► description of almost all of his work if [TS]

00:12:02 ◼   ► it uh but for all that when this came [TS]

00:12:06 ◼   ► out I avoided it like the plague because [TS]

00:12:08 ◼   ► I'm like oh it's copeland and at the [TS]

00:12:11 ◼   ► time i guess was 96 I was doing a lot of [TS]

00:12:13 ◼   ► driving trips on consulting things i'm [TS]

00:12:16 ◼   ► driving around and and I would listen to [TS]

00:12:18 ◼   ► audiobooks in the car was very it was a [TS]

00:12:20 ◼   ► nice way to past six hours while driving [TS]

00:12:22 ◼   ► straight on an interstate and the [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► audiobook of this was written by written [TS]

00:12:29 ◼   ► performed by Matthew Perry and I thought [TS]

00:12:33 ◼   ► okay you know it's a bridged if I don't [TS]

00:12:37 ◼   ► like it at least Matthew Perry will be [TS]

00:12:38 ◼   ► amusing [TS]

00:12:39 ◼   ► you know there wasn't anything else at [TS]

00:12:41 ◼   ► the store the really appealed to me [TS]

00:12:42 ◼   ► something alright and I i went up [TS]

00:12:45 ◼   ► enjoying it so I went and got the book [TS]

00:12:46 ◼   ► so I could get all the bits that i [TS]

00:12:48 ◼   ► missed since it was abridged and yeah i [TS]

00:12:52 ◼   ► mean going back to it now it's like oh [TS]

00:12:54 ◼   ► yeah it's actually not very good either [TS]

00:12:56 ◼   ► but I basically liked the setup of it i [TS]

00:13:02 ◼   ► mean at the time i was thinking you know [TS]

00:13:04 ◼   ► this would make a really good TV show [TS]

00:13:06 ◼   ► you know the the framework is their [TS]

00:13:09 ◼   ► animated for obvious reasons they got [TS]

00:13:12 ◼   ► Perry to do the the voice so it's like [TS]

00:13:14 ◼   ► well alright that makes sense [TS]

00:13:16 ◼   ► we should say for those youngsters out [TS]

00:13:19 ◼   ► there who are listening to us old people [TS]

00:13:20 ◼   ► talk about things [TS]

00:13:22 ◼   ► Matthew Perry one of the stars of the [TS]

00:13:24 ◼   ► 90s sitcom huge hit sitcom Friends and [TS]

00:13:27 ◼   ► of course the friends were participants [TS]

00:13:29 ◼   ► in launch promotional video for windows [TS]

00:13:32 ◼   ► 95 so they're soldiers could there be a [TS]

00:13:35 ◼   ► better person to narrate you will [TS]

00:13:37 ◼   ► respect you of course no Matthew Perry [TS]

00:13:39 ◼   ► as the star of the [TS]

00:13:40 ◼   ► Odd Couple to ensure and we know you [TS]

00:13:42 ◼   ► probably know studio 60 on the Sunset [TS]

00:13:45 ◼   ► Strip [TS]

00:13:46 ◼   ► there you go go on to think about me mr. [TS]

00:13:52 ◼   ► sunshine you mean mr. Sunshine's which I [TS]

00:13:54 ◼   ► like mr. sunshine and selling shine [TS]

00:13:57 ◼   ► yeah but at ten years later Copeland [TS]

00:14:01 ◼   ► came out with a book called jpod which [TS]

00:14:04 ◼   ► was basically this book kind of [TS]

00:14:06 ◼   ► rewritten except with different you know [TS]

00:14:10 ◼   ► different names and a different software [TS]

00:14:12 ◼   ► thing that they're working on but it's [TS]

00:14:14 ◼   ► pretty much the same thing and it wasn't [TS]

00:14:17 ◼   ► anywhere near as good but they did turn [TS]

00:14:20 ◼   ► that into a TV show which got canceled [TS]

00:14:22 ◼   ► huh oh no little silicon valley could [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► people uh yeah [TS]

00:14:26 ◼   ► Silicon Valley and halt and catch fire [TS]

00:14:28 ◼   ► well that ties into tracy kidder [TS]

00:14:30 ◼   ► Sullivan machine so we can get to that a [TS]

00:14:32 ◼   ► little bit [TS]

00:14:32 ◼   ► mm no I did like the subplot about all [TS]

00:14:36 ◼   ► the nerds suddenly becoming really into [TS]

00:14:38 ◼   ► physical fitness [TS]

00:14:40 ◼   ► oh god that was some funny is it kind of [TS]

00:14:43 ◼   ► predicted tim ferriss in my opinion and [TS]

00:14:46 ◼   ► body hacking because they spend a lot of [TS]

00:14:48 ◼   ► time on my watch is telling me to stand [TS]

00:14:49 ◼   ► up I'll be right back [TS]

00:14:50 ◼   ► yeah erin and i will say he does a [TS]

00:14:55 ◼   ► I mean he basically this book is in blog [TS]

00:14:58 ◼   ► format before blog was a word or weblog [TS]

00:15:01 ◼   ► was a word and and they're working on a [TS]

00:15:04 ◼   ► software thing that's basically [TS]

00:15:06 ◼   ► minecraft you know so so it's it's a [TS]

00:15:10 ◼   ► little predictive just not as productive [TS]

00:15:12 ◼   ► as i think it thinks it is you exactly [TS]

00:15:14 ◼   ► and quit using the Chicago font know gah [TS]

00:15:17 ◼   ► we have you would that will see that [TS]

00:15:19 ◼   ► says nineteen nineties like nothing else [TS]

00:15:21 ◼   ► because when you're on your mac with a [TS]

00:15:23 ◼   ► stupid little cow daughter was called [TS]

00:15:25 ◼   ► don't know [TS]

00:15:26 ◼   ► Thank You dog chow I'm sorry I didn't [TS]

00:15:28 ◼   ► mean to insult your dog catcher Jason [TS]

00:15:29 ◼   ► and you know you owe my guard towers [TS]

00:15:31 ◼   ► name is claris park dog park cow but [TS]

00:15:34 ◼   ► he's not my dog you open up like your [TS]

00:15:36 ◼   ► your text document and it was always the [TS]

00:15:38 ◼   ► default plant so even the weather TV [TS]

00:15:41 ◼   ► faulted to macintosh but being 96 I'm [TS]

00:15:46 ◼   ► not sure in 1995 that when my university [TS]

00:15:49 ◼   ► computer lab it sure was one of the [TS]

00:15:53 ◼   ► things that struck me while reading [TS]

00:15:55 ◼   ► micro serfs is there's a point where [TS]

00:15:57 ◼   ► they get their own URL and it's 00 p dot [TS]

00:16:01 ◼   ► com and the whole time I'm thinking now [TS]

00:16:03 ◼   ► that's probably more valuable that [TS]

00:16:05 ◼   ► you're ridiculous software product [TS]

00:16:08 ◼   ► you're working on this episode of the [TS]

00:16:11 ◼   ► uncomfortable was brought to you by [TS]

00:16:13 ◼   ► FanDuel this is not a duel between two [TS]

00:16:16 ◼   ► victorian gentleman with tall hats and [TS]

00:16:20 ◼   ► little fans that they normally used to [TS]

00:16:22 ◼   ► wave air themselves instead it's fantasy [TS]

00:16:26 ◼   ► sports it is american football season [TS]

00:16:29 ◼   ► it's also european football season but [TS]

00:16:31 ◼   ► i'm not talking about that right now I'm [TS]

00:16:32 ◼   ► talking about the NFL talking about [TS]

00:16:34 ◼   ► fanduel fantasy football its weekly [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► fantasy football FanDuel the trusted [TS]

00:16:39 ◼   ► leader in one week fantasy football if [TS]

00:16:41 ◼   ► you haven't signed up for a traditional [TS]

00:16:42 ◼   ► season-long fantasy football league [TS]

00:16:44 ◼   ► guess what it's not a problem [TS]

00:16:45 ◼   ► vandals leagues are week-by-week you [TS]

00:16:49 ◼   ► drop in for a week [TS]

00:16:50 ◼   ► you pick a bunch of players using a [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► salary cap and then you see how well you [TS]

00:16:54 ◼   ► do it's easy to build a team and then [TS]

00:16:57 ◼   ► you sit back and watch how your team [TS]

00:16:58 ◼   ► does across the season i tried this out [TS]

00:17:01 ◼   ► a few weeks ago [TS]

00:17:02 ◼   ► it works really well it's very simple I [TS]

00:17:04 ◼   ► enjoy the challenge of assembling a team [TS]

00:17:05 ◼   ► under a salary cap because you can't [TS]

00:17:07 ◼   ► just pick the famous stars [TS]

00:17:08 ◼   ► you have to try to balance your roster I [TS]

00:17:11 ◼   ► think it's a very clever [TS]

00:17:12 ◼   ► so here's what you need to do go to [TS]

00:17:13 ◼   ► phandroid.com fa ND uel dot-com click on [TS]

00:17:17 ◼   ► the microphone in the upper right-hand [TS]

00:17:18 ◼   ► corner use the code in comfortable and [TS]

00:17:21 ◼   ► sign up now and for new users every [TS]

00:17:23 ◼   ► dollar you deposit will be matched by [TS]

00:17:25 ◼   ► FanDuel up to two hundred dollars that [TS]

00:17:27 ◼   ► gets earned as you play offer is only [TS]

00:17:29 ◼   ► good for the first 50 people that use [TS]

00:17:32 ◼   ► the coding comfortable so sign up today [TS]

00:17:34 ◼   ► that's FanDuel dot-com where everyday is [TS]

00:17:38 ◼   ► a new season fa + D you [TS]

00:17:40 ◼   ► elle.com think of those Victorian [TS]

00:17:42 ◼   ► gentleman with their fold-out paper fans [TS]

00:17:44 ◼   ► at dawn [TS]

00:17:46 ◼   ► fa ND uel dot-com sign up today using [TS]

00:17:49 ◼   ► code and comfortable thank you to handle [TS]

00:17:50 ◼   ► for sponsoring the incomparable my [TS]

00:17:53 ◼   ► husband covered halt and catch fire for [TS]

00:17:55 ◼   ► previously TV and so that meant that by [TS]

00:17:59 ◼   ► merrill proxy I got to see every episode [TS]

00:18:02 ◼   ► that's ever been made a halt and catch [TS]

00:18:03 ◼   ► fire and as I I red-soled missed a new [TS]

00:18:07 ◼   ► machine after that and I was like well i [TS]

00:18:08 ◼   ► really wish i had flipped the order [TS]

00:18:09 ◼   ► because once you read soul of a new [TS]

00:18:13 ◼   ► machine and it walks you through the the [TS]

00:18:15 ◼   ► engineering cultures of the time and [TS]

00:18:17 ◼   ► what the stakes were and the egos [TS]

00:18:19 ◼   ► involved in all of the steps then the [TS]

00:18:21 ◼   ► entire TV series from AMC makes so much [TS]

00:18:24 ◼   ► sense why didn't AMC like send out [TS]

00:18:27 ◼   ► copies of the single look read this and [TS]

00:18:29 ◼   ► then watch the TV series i mean only a [TS]

00:18:31 ◼   ► hundred eighty-six thousand you tuned in [TS]

00:18:32 ◼   ► nationwide we could have sent you all [TS]

00:18:34 ◼   ► copies but my friend cliff was right it [TS]

00:18:39 ◼   ► really is kind of the ur-text for for [TS]

00:18:40 ◼   ► the nerd books the nineties because it [TS]

00:18:42 ◼   ► it documents I think sort of a cultural [TS]

00:18:45 ◼   ► shift like and not on am not on my level [TS]

00:18:48 ◼   ► which is actually how Tracy Kidder [TS]

00:18:50 ◼   ► starts the book but it documents in the [TS]

00:18:52 ◼   ► sense of this is how people began to [TS]

00:18:54 ◼   ► engage their work and this is what the [TS]

00:18:56 ◼   ► stakes were in this is how leaves them [TS]

00:18:57 ◼   ► in the end and that's the thing I find [TS]

00:18:59 ◼   ► interesting about these books in the [TS]

00:19:01 ◼   ► nineties is all of the mask in some way [TS]

00:19:03 ◼   ► shape or form [TS]

00:19:04 ◼   ► how is this aggressive use of technology [TS]

00:19:07 ◼   ► changing the way that we interact with [TS]

00:19:08 ◼   ► our environment and the people that we [TS]

00:19:10 ◼   ► know in it i think one of the [TS]

00:19:12 ◼   ► interesting things about that book [TS]

00:19:15 ◼   ► in particular is that it really is not [TS]

00:19:17 ◼   ► about technology of course right like it [TS]

00:19:19 ◼   ► is it's a really good bit of research [TS]

00:19:21 ◼   ► book but his books are so deeply about [TS]

00:19:23 ◼   ► people and I think I forget all the [TS]

00:19:25 ◼   ► technology description there's accurate [TS]

00:19:27 ◼   ► reading some things about that later [TS]

00:19:29 ◼   ► whether he got the nuance right about [TS]

00:19:30 ◼   ► like the Securities whole thing about [TS]

00:19:32 ◼   ► rings of security [TS]

00:19:33 ◼   ► they're building this like inhale [TS]

00:19:35 ◼   ► service concentric circles and so forth [TS]

00:19:37 ◼   ► and but you know i think i've read for a [TS]

00:19:40 ◼   ► lifesaver for his books or house came [TS]

00:19:42 ◼   ► after that which is really interesting [TS]

00:19:43 ◼   ► and hometown which is about town in [TS]

00:19:47 ◼   ► western Massachusetts and I'm just the [TS]

00:19:49 ◼   ► way he dives into people's lives Mike [TS]

00:19:53 ◼   ► Mike Glennon backstory that happen [TS]

00:19:55 ◼   ► realizes i was reading on let's do [TS]

00:19:57 ◼   ► something came up with Tracy Kidder and [TS]

00:19:59 ◼   ► adjustment West who's the internets [TS]

00:20:00 ◼   ► librarian lips in Vermont very well [TS]

00:20:03 ◼   ► known quantity probably knows her and [TS]

00:20:04 ◼   ► she's live in Seattle and sheeps to make [TS]

00:20:06 ◼   ► some reference to Tracy Kidder and like [TS]

00:20:07 ◼   ► had no choice skaters like my dad is the [TS]

00:20:10 ◼   ► guy in the book mr. West like always [TS]

00:20:12 ◼   ► liked racing history can be used to come [TS]

00:20:13 ◼   ► in our house and he slept downstairs on [TS]

00:20:15 ◼   ► the couch every weekend walks work on [TS]

00:20:16 ◼   ► the book for years Mike oh how his acts [TS]

00:20:19 ◼   ► of here around and you know he did he [TS]

00:20:21 ◼   ► put this the kind of thing like he put [TS]

00:20:23 ◼   ► the work in to understand people so [TS]

00:20:25 ◼   ► wasn't this like I'm gonna fly in and [TS]

00:20:27 ◼   ► learn a little bit about the industry [TS]

00:20:28 ◼   ► and do some interviews and write a book [TS]

00:20:30 ◼   ► it's like he lived and breathed this [TS]

00:20:32 ◼   ► whole thing and lived with them through [TS]

00:20:34 ◼   ► it so you can tell when someone is [TS]

00:20:37 ◼   ► contemporary with the events like [TS]

00:20:38 ◼   ► there's that book called was a great the [TS]

00:20:40 ◼   ► the great year what's the book about the [TS]

00:20:42 ◼   ► big area the big year and I saw the [TS]

00:20:44 ◼   ► movie which I quite like this kind of [TS]

00:20:46 ◼   ► benign but it's good and I read the book [TS]

00:20:48 ◼   ► and the book made me confused because I [TS]

00:20:50 ◼   ► thought to this guy pic right and pick [TS]

00:20:52 ◼   ► the right people to follow and then I [TS]

00:20:53 ◼   ► found out later he went through [TS]

00:20:55 ◼   ► interviewed everybody like a couple [TS]

00:20:57 ◼   ► years after it happened so it's a [TS]

00:20:58 ◼   ► reconstruction and you could tell [TS]

00:21:00 ◼   ► something wasn't right it was good it [TS]

00:21:02 ◼   ► wasn't a constructed narrative is [TS]

00:21:03 ◼   ► apparently pretty accurate but soul of a [TS]

00:21:06 ◼   ► new machine he drove in there and so you [TS]

00:21:08 ◼   ► get this sense of what it's like to be [TS]

00:21:09 ◼   ► working you know people in those days i [TS]

00:21:12 ◼   ► don't think people are used to reading [TS]

00:21:13 ◼   ► books about people working 24 hours at a [TS]

00:21:17 ◼   ► time and no 24-7 didn't mean anything to [TS]

00:21:21 ◼   ► people and so I remember when I read it [TS]

00:21:23 ◼   ► I think first the late eighties maybe [TS]

00:21:26 ◼   ► just being you know it's a little more [TS]

00:21:28 ◼   ► familiar by then it was sort of more [TS]

00:21:29 ◼   ► familiar with the culture was but I'm [TS]

00:21:30 ◼   ► but i think it introduce people to what [TS]

00:21:32 ◼   ► this is all about [TS]

00:21:33 ◼   ► I it's funny that you mentioned people [TS]

00:21:36 ◼   ► hadn't read stuff like this before about [TS]

00:21:38 ◼   ► the these sort of things I got the sense [TS]

00:21:40 ◼   ► in looking at the books in this group [TS]

00:21:43 ◼   ► that I looked at that the story we've [TS]

00:21:45 ◼   ► got here in some ways is stories told as [TS]

00:21:50 ◼   ► being kind of crazy and unique like oh [TS]

00:21:52 ◼   ► you won't believe what the computer [TS]

00:21:54 ◼   ► people are doing that from today's [TS]

00:21:56 ◼   ► perspective you're like well of course [TS]

00:21:57 ◼   ► they are like to thank you working right [TS]

00:22:00 ◼   ► it's like you won't believe the effort [TS]

00:22:02 ◼   ► these people put into making their [TS]

00:22:03 ◼   ► computers and now it's like what that's [TS]

00:22:05 ◼   ► what the computer people do that's like [TS]

00:22:07 ◼   ► that's like a network is now and end and [TS]

00:22:10 ◼   ► but then it was novel and now it's not [TS]

00:22:11 ◼   ► and we get to Cuckoo's egg gets it i [TS]

00:22:13 ◼   ► think that's true of things like [TS]

00:22:14 ◼   ► computer security to ya that it seems [TS]

00:22:17 ◼   ► all strange and different this like it's [TS]

00:22:19 ◼   ► the internet let me explain how that [TS]

00:22:20 ◼   ► works but in the end you know from the [TS]

00:22:22 ◼   ► perspective of 20 years later it's a [TS]

00:22:24 ◼   ► it's like yep that's that's that's not [TS]

00:22:27 ◼   ► special that's just normal [TS]

00:22:29 ◼   ► yeah part of the morale of soul of a new [TS]

00:22:32 ◼   ► machine is that this guy you didn't [TS]

00:22:34 ◼   ► think he did anything but he was a great [TS]

00:22:37 ◼   ► man because he motivated everybody to [TS]

00:22:39 ◼   ► work 20 hours a day and give up their [TS]

00:22:41 ◼   ► social life he lied to them if you can [TS]

00:22:44 ◼   ► deal with the other prospective [TS]

00:22:46 ◼   ► employers in the town that they wouldn't [TS]

00:22:48 ◼   ► hire them away and we do that now I'm [TS]

00:22:50 ◼   ► like these guys were really being taken [TS]

00:22:53 ◼   ► advantage of [TS]

00:22:54 ◼   ► yeah no it's not you mentioned just nine [TS]

00:22:57 ◼   ► west glad there's actually a really [TS]

00:23:00 ◼   ► great piece she wrote about all of the [TS]

00:23:01 ◼   ► technology traps and pitfalls that she's [TS]

00:23:04 ◼   ► run into since her dad died because he's [TS]

00:23:06 ◼   ► had some heat he had some really arcane [TS]

00:23:09 ◼   ► automated home security systems systems [TS]

00:23:11 ◼   ► that she that she's had to figure out [TS]

00:23:14 ◼   ► how to debug and getting into his [TS]

00:23:16 ◼   ► computers husbands and in dealing with [TS]

00:23:18 ◼   ► his digital ephemera has has been just [TS]

00:23:20 ◼   ► like I rolling Lee mind-bogglingly [TS]

00:23:24 ◼   ► difficult i'll have to dig up the piece [TS]

00:23:25 ◼   ► because i read it and i thought oh my [TS]

00:23:27 ◼   ► god this is something we're all gonna [TS]

00:23:28 ◼   ► have to do that thats whats the cross of [TS]

00:23:31 ◼   ► house and sold a new machine she's [TS]

00:23:33 ◼   ► dealing with the soul of a old house [TS]

00:23:34 ◼   ► yea though I can i briefly mention about [TS]

00:23:37 ◼   ► soul of a new machine there is a living [TS]

00:23:40 ◼   ► computer museum in Seattle that has one [TS]

00:23:43 ◼   ► of the machines they're building in this [TS]

00:23:45 ◼   ► book along with a bunch of other old [TS]

00:23:47 ◼   ► nonsense like all tears and PDP's have [TS]

00:23:52 ◼   ► not going to play with them yet but I'm [TS]

00:23:53 ◼   ► going to someday i like how you refer to [TS]

00:23:56 ◼   ► that we just talk about this book which [TS]

00:23:58 ◼   ► is basically oh and here's how he [TS]

00:23:59 ◼   ► motivated people to work crazy hours and [TS]

00:24:01 ◼   ► this was their life's work the poor [TS]

00:24:02 ◼   ► blood sweat and tears into and then you [TS]

00:24:04 ◼   ► dismiss like another undocumented group [TS]

00:24:07 ◼   ► of people on their life works out it's a [TS]

00:24:08 ◼   ► bunch of nonsense that's what is my [TS]

00:24:11 ◼   ► problem with the hungry caterpillar at [TS]

00:24:13 ◼   ► the end of another variable maybe [TS]

00:24:14 ◼   ► they're mixed up the mixed-up chameleon [TS]

00:24:17 ◼   ► at the end it's like he gets the fly but [TS]

00:24:19 ◼   ► don't you feel the fight feel bad for [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► the fly [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► well Lisa you read this book named the [TS]

00:24:24 ◼   ► computer they're working on the focus of [TS]

00:24:26 ◼   ► everybody's lives they didn't they they [TS]

00:24:30 ◼   ► named it the very they redeem at the [TS]

00:24:32 ◼   ► very end because it's a the eclipse that [TS]

00:24:34 ◼   ► it's the Eagle first isn't right [TS]

00:24:37 ◼   ► yes nice to be honest i had never heard [TS]

00:24:40 ◼   ► of it in the wild although in my defense [TS]

00:24:41 ◼   ► like this was all taking place back [TS]

00:24:44 ◼   ► before computers a enter the Schmeisser [TS]

00:24:47 ◼   ► household your house it's not a [TS]

00:24:49 ◼   ► historically important computer at all [TS]

00:24:51 ◼   ► like salads this book although what did [TS]

00:24:54 ◼   ► really amusing when i first started [TS]

00:24:55 ◼   ► reading it is when i first started [TS]

00:24:57 ◼   ► learning about computers as an [TS]

00:24:59 ◼   ► elementary school my parents had both [TS]

00:25:00 ◼   ► worked with computers in the sixties and [TS]

00:25:02 ◼   ► seventies and what they had said very [TS]

00:25:04 ◼   ► tall Solomon other computers and they [TS]

00:25:06 ◼   ► live in jet rooms because they're just [TS]

00:25:08 ◼   ► so big and they require so much [TS]

00:25:09 ◼   ► processing power and there are many [TS]

00:25:11 ◼   ► computers but the theme is really [TS]

00:25:12 ◼   ► exciting are microcomputers and they had [TS]

00:25:14 ◼   ► that very careful gradation of size and [TS]

00:25:17 ◼   ► as i was reading this book I thought to [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► myself because I i was reading it on on [TS]

00:25:21 ◼   ► my laptop computer with my phone next to [TS]

00:25:24 ◼   ► me and I thought my phone [TS]

00:25:26 ◼   ► what would you call that a nano computer [TS]

00:25:28 ◼   ► at this point it's it's impossible you [TS]

00:25:29 ◼   ► know the complete the computers have [TS]

00:25:31 ◼   ► gotten powerful and smaller and but at [TS]

00:25:33 ◼   ► one point this was the the reigning [TS]

00:25:35 ◼   ► paradigm was computer sick up rooms many [TS]

00:25:38 ◼   ► computers maybe not so much and then [TS]

00:25:39 ◼   ► microcomputers will sit on people's [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► desks and it's very exciting and [TS]

00:25:42 ◼   ► empowering right [TS]

00:25:44 ◼   ► oh I I remember standing at the Air and [TS]

00:25:46 ◼   ► Space Museum [TS]

00:25:47 ◼   ► an iphone in my hand and the 13 year old [TS]

00:25:50 ◼   ► who was younger the time looking from [TS]

00:25:52 ◼   ► the iphone to the space capsule into the [TS]

00:25:55 ◼   ► iphone into the space capsule little [TS]

00:25:57 ◼   ► plaque that says this is how much [TS]

00:25:58 ◼   ► computing power this before absol had [TS]

00:26:00 ◼   ► and it was less than like a timex [TS]

00:26:02 ◼   ► sinclair which shito what's in my hand [TS]

00:26:05 ◼   ► is infinitely larger and bigger and you [TS]

00:26:09 ◼   ► know and and he blew his mind you know [TS]

00:26:11 ◼   ► it's it's it's stunning what you think [TS]

00:26:15 ◼   ► about how much casual computing power we [TS]

00:26:16 ◼   ► have at our fingertips you know and that [TS]

00:26:20 ◼   ► these books are also really handy [TS]

00:26:21 ◼   ► reminder of how far we have come and how [TS]

00:26:25 ◼   ► fast and what a comparatively short time [TS]

00:26:28 ◼   ► they still seem to load slow that's the [TS]

00:26:30 ◼   ► thing even have to ask [TS]

00:26:31 ◼   ► maybe that's their so it doesn't blow [TS]

00:26:33 ◼   ► our minds with your parents actually [TS]

00:26:35 ◼   ► remember it took me five minutes to turn [TS]

00:26:38 ◼   ► on this magical box all this computing [TS]

00:26:42 ◼   ► power and we spend it making podcasts [TS]

00:26:44 ◼   ► and quantity George Jetson ashley is the [TS]

00:26:48 ◼   ► i push the button twice today Jane have [TS]

00:26:53 ◼   ► you stopped this craziest great thing [TS]

00:26:55 ◼   ► yeah I let's talk about hackers and [TS]

00:27:00 ◼   ► leaving and I realized i have fond [TS]

00:27:02 ◼   ► memories of reading this book on a trip [TS]

00:27:05 ◼   ► I took to New York when I was in grad [TS]

00:27:07 ◼   ► school so I remember like riding the [TS]

00:27:09 ◼   ► train from out of New York City to white [TS]

00:27:12 ◼   ► plains and i was reading hackers by [TS]

00:27:13 ◼   ► Steven Levy and i don't know why that [TS]

00:27:15 ◼   ► place is it in 1993 i guess so i hope [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► you are reading a dial-up connection a [TS]

00:27:19 ◼   ► prodigy that that would have been [TS]

00:27:21 ◼   ► fitting well yes I might my order for my [TS]

00:27:24 ◼   ► first uh no I just taken delivery of my [TS]

00:27:26 ◼   ► first laptop mind my powerbook once [TS]

00:27:30 ◼   ► everything i had so i just gotten so [TS]

00:27:34 ◼   ► Steven Levy who now writes for medium i [TS]

00:27:37 ◼   ► guess and a thing for a major i guess [TS]

00:27:40 ◼   ► and yeah they're good [TS]

00:27:43 ◼   ► um and then before that worked wired in [TS]

00:27:45 ◼   ► Newsweek and has written many many books [TS]

00:27:49 ◼   ► about technology I think this is his [TS]

00:27:51 ◼   ► first gosh 1984 it was written on ya [TS]

00:27:56 ◼   ► go it's yeah I read it in grad school as [TS]

00:27:58 ◼   ► part of the course that we did on [TS]

00:28:00 ◼   ► culture and computers [TS]

00:28:01 ◼   ► yeah so this this is a this is the the [TS]

00:28:04 ◼   ► heroes of the computer revolution and it [TS]

00:28:06 ◼   ► is definitely the the old the old days [TS]

00:28:09 ◼   ► the old days of computers & and i have [TS]

00:28:12 ◼   ► to say that that is looking back at it [TS]

00:28:15 ◼   ► it's not as as compelling a story as [TS]

00:28:19 ◼   ► leave his books since have been so I [TS]

00:28:22 ◼   ► think he was still getting his feet wet [TS]

00:28:23 ◼   ► as a writer and some and honestly some [TS]

00:28:26 ◼   ► of the subject matter is kind of [TS]

00:28:28 ◼   ► esoteric there's a lot of 14 there's a [TS]

00:28:31 ◼   ► lot of love for MIT hackers and there's [TS]

00:28:33 ◼   ► a lot of richard stallman at mrs. [TS]

00:28:36 ◼   ► America and maybe it was a lot of [TS]

00:28:38 ◼   ► richard stallman it was a Christmas [TS]

00:28:40 ◼   ► story i find it interesting that so much [TS]

00:28:43 ◼   ► of some there's so much emphasis on the [TS]

00:28:46 ◼   ► Massachusetts nerd corridor in a lot of [TS]

00:28:48 ◼   ► these early books and i find it [TS]

00:28:51 ◼   ► interesting especially when you consider [TS]

00:28:53 ◼   ► like how much modern computer culture [TS]

00:28:57 ◼   ► popped up out of the west coast you have [TS]

00:28:58 ◼   ► like there's a brief mention of the well [TS]

00:29:01 ◼   ► but elantra remember those are what's [TS]

00:29:03 ◼   ► the reason was that mentioned in there [TS]

00:29:05 ◼   ► was a reason with all that was going on [TS]

00:29:07 ◼   ► the been the one they call that the Ring [TS]

00:29:08 ◼   ► Road the route 128 around ya around [TS]

00:29:11 ◼   ► Boston east coast bias thing you know [TS]

00:29:13 ◼   ► Stephen Levy's from Massachusetts nobody [TS]

00:29:16 ◼   ► was wearing a digital equipment [TS]

00:29:17 ◼   ► corporation bunch of customers with [TS]

00:29:19 ◼   ► Charlotte that's why i DG was I mean [TS]

00:29:21 ◼   ► that the ideapad McGovern stuff i mean [TS]

00:29:23 ◼   ► they they made great headway on the fact [TS]

00:29:25 ◼   ► that they were these big computer [TS]

00:29:27 ◼   ► companies sixties and seventies with [TS]

00:29:30 ◼   ► mainframes and on all that out in the [TS]

00:29:32 ◼   ► massachusetts area by Emerson armonk and [TS]

00:29:35 ◼   ► pepsi and so forth wasn't sea rocks out [TS]

00:29:38 ◼   ► there too [TS]

00:29:39 ◼   ► yes Xeroxes in remarks was in armonk I [TS]

00:29:41 ◼   ► think so [TS]

00:29:42 ◼   ► upstate New York migrate my grandfather [TS]

00:29:46 ◼   ► worked for IBM during the war he know [TS]

00:29:48 ◼   ► sorry [TS]

00:29:49 ◼   ► yeah but yeah I don't remember if it [TS]

00:29:51 ◼   ► wasn't it wasn't like the military [TS]

00:29:52 ◼   ► economy internal why there was a reason [TS]

00:29:54 ◼   ► there was a reason that was happening [TS]

00:29:56 ◼   ► there like my no I'm gonna go to East [TS]

00:29:58 ◼   ► Coast media bias discuss media bias is a [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► handy is a handy all just wave your hand [TS]

00:30:03 ◼   ► and say dismissive the East Coast media [TS]

00:30:04 ◼   ► bias there were no many computer [TS]

00:30:06 ◼   ► companies like in California [TS]

00:30:08 ◼   ► no this one this was I think interesting [TS]

00:30:09 ◼   ► about how we think of technology today [TS]

00:30:11 ◼   ► is that in these early days in the [TS]

00:30:12 ◼   ► seventies and eighties the the the [TS]

00:30:14 ◼   ► balance had not tipped to silicon valley [TS]

00:30:16 ◼   ► right this one now and i literally tip [TS]

00:30:19 ◼   ► to software when you think about it was [TS]

00:30:20 ◼   ► like renovation yeah well liked in for [TS]

00:30:23 ◼   ► people who haven't read it hackers [TS]

00:30:25 ◼   ► contains the story of the first people [TS]

00:30:27 ◼   ► to actually try to make money selling [TS]

00:30:28 ◼   ► software it turns out to be Bill Gates [TS]

00:30:30 ◼   ► and Paul Allen yeah so so ladies book [TS]

00:30:34 ◼   ► there's a lot of this kind of stuff that [TS]

00:30:35 ◼   ► is completely foreign even to me i mean [TS]

00:30:37 ◼   ► i first got access to a VAX system at [TS]

00:30:41 ◼   ► UCSD in 1982 fall of 88 [TS]

00:30:45 ◼   ► so I'd never sewed this stuff the early [TS]

00:30:49 ◼   ► sort of seventies early internet early [TS]

00:30:52 ◼   ► terminals and and all that was complete [TS]

00:30:56 ◼   ► complete you know its way before my time [TS]

00:30:58 ◼   ► and it sort of fascinating these are the [TS]

00:31:00 ◼   ► people for whom there was no platform to [TS]

00:31:02 ◼   ► build on [TS]

00:31:03 ◼   ► they were kind of building the platforms [TS]

00:31:05 ◼   ► and you got and their stories in there [TS]

00:31:06 ◼   ► about the homebrew Computer Club which [TS]

00:31:09 ◼   ► of course famously is a you know Steve [TS]

00:31:11 ◼   ► Wozniak was a part of and they're [TS]

00:31:12 ◼   ► building circuit boards and you know i [TS]

00:31:14 ◼   ► would have been a terrible computer nerd [TS]

00:31:16 ◼   ► in the seventies because I don't know [TS]

00:31:17 ◼   ► how to solder thanks and yeah I think [TS]

00:31:20 ◼   ► it's really interesting to think about [TS]

00:31:21 ◼   ► the fact that a lot of computing culture [TS]

00:31:26 ◼   ► came out of model railroad nerds [TS]

00:31:28 ◼   ► is that crazy they were building [TS]

00:31:30 ◼   ► controllers yeah there were the two [TS]

00:31:32 ◼   ► kinds of railroad nerves the kinds that [TS]

00:31:34 ◼   ► like the stuff above the table perfect [TS]

00:31:36 ◼   ► little models of trains and trees and [TS]

00:31:39 ◼   ► the guys like this nothing to know the [TS]

00:31:41 ◼   ► table where you had to figure out how [TS]

00:31:43 ◼   ► all the intersections woodwork and they [TS]

00:31:45 ◼   ► got to rewire things all night [TS]

00:31:47 ◼   ► this one you know I wasn't a computer [TS]

00:31:49 ◼   ► club in 1979 because there was a [TS]

00:31:52 ◼   ► computer store not far from my house and [TS]

00:31:54 ◼   ► they adopted because I was such a giant [TS]

00:31:55 ◼   ► nerd for a while that's where i got my [TS]

00:31:58 ◼   ► ohio scientific computer from they sold [TS]

00:31:59 ◼   ► apples and so forth and all the guys [TS]

00:32:01 ◼   ► they were much you know older they're [TS]

00:32:03 ◼   ► from there was a teenager their twenties [TS]

00:32:05 ◼   ► to their you know fifties or sixties and [TS]

00:32:07 ◼   ► there was a lot of hardware stuff a [TS]

00:32:09 ◼   ► number like no one time they're trying [TS]

00:32:11 ◼   ► to figure out some this dynamically [TS]

00:32:12 ◼   ► refreshing ran this super cool new thing [TS]

00:32:14 ◼   ► there's something wrong with writing [TS]

00:32:16 ◼   ► machine code to try to figure it out [TS]

00:32:17 ◼   ► there was one [TS]

00:32:18 ◼   ► bit that was broken so it would flip [TS]

00:32:20 ◼   ► from 0 to 1 it wouldn't be able to [TS]

00:32:22 ◼   ► refresh me at work around like that was [TS]

00:32:24 ◼   ► the kind of stuff you were doing in [TS]

00:32:26 ◼   ► 1979-80 that's a kid is like it was it [TS]

00:32:28 ◼   ► was fun yet soldering irons and you know [TS]

00:32:31 ◼   ► you're working in assembly and things [TS]

00:32:32 ◼   ► like that it's very down to the you know [TS]

00:32:34 ◼   ► the metal anytime is the potential for [TS]

00:32:37 ◼   ► physical destruction is exciting [TS]

00:32:39 ◼   ► yeah burn things yeah computers don't [TS]

00:32:41 ◼   ► catch on fire like they used to you know [TS]

00:32:43 ◼   ► another really interesting thing and [TS]

00:32:45 ◼   ► hackers is the is the software story [TS]

00:32:47 ◼   ► especially at and you know warms my [TS]

00:32:51 ◼   ► heart [TS]

00:32:52 ◼   ► sierra on-line one of the first scooter [TS]

00:32:55 ◼   ► gaming and tech companies and Ken [TS]

00:32:57 ◼   ► Roberta Williams from there there read [TS]

00:32:59 ◼   ► out in what coarsegold or or uh where [TS]

00:33:02 ◼   ► it's up in the foothills there's likely [TS]

00:33:04 ◼   ► a couple places that they that they [TS]

00:33:05 ◼   ► incorporated near Yosemite not too far [TS]

00:33:08 ◼   ► from where I grew up and that's where [TS]

00:33:10 ◼   ► see you're online was and I made altima [TS]

00:33:12 ◼   ► and and a whole bunch of other games [TS]

00:33:15 ◼   ► oakhurst was the famous I think [TS]

00:33:17 ◼   ► incorporated location oakhurst [TS]

00:33:19 ◼   ► california and i think that was leaving [TS]

00:33:21 ◼   ► trying to get away from the MIT I think [TS]

00:33:23 ◼   ► so guess because he could have if you [TS]

00:33:25 ◼   ► need a game company he could have [TS]

00:33:26 ◼   ► written about infocomm but then a bunch [TS]

00:33:29 ◼   ► of MIT guys another day another group of [TS]

00:33:32 ◼   ► any guys as MIT guys everywhere huh [TS]

00:33:35 ◼   ► so instead they you know they talk about [TS]

00:33:36 ◼   ► sierra on-line and and some other stuff [TS]

00:33:39 ◼   ► like that which was which was fun [TS]

00:33:41 ◼   ► because I play actually played those [TS]

00:33:42 ◼   ► games and so to see those people trying [TS]

00:33:44 ◼   ► to make it and again software in those [TS]

00:33:46 ◼   ► days with problematic just like it is [TS]

00:33:47 ◼   ► today piracy was a thing then is a thing [TS]

00:33:49 ◼   ► now again saying a lot of the issues [TS]

00:33:52 ◼   ► that come up in these books we we not [TS]

00:33:54 ◼   ► knowingly are like yes that would [TS]

00:33:56 ◼   ► continue to be an issue to the present [TS]

00:33:58 ◼   ► day maybe not so much for catching on [TS]

00:33:59 ◼   ► fire [TS]

00:34:00 ◼   ► yeah but like i said that i love this [TS]

00:34:04 ◼   ► book really enjoy the many kinds of [TS]

00:34:09 ◼   ► weirdo that led to her community culture [TS]

00:34:12 ◼   ► i do wish there was more california in [TS]

00:34:15 ◼   ► it [TS]

00:34:15 ◼   ► the people at berkeley i think [TS]

00:34:19 ◼   ► especially because of the well did more [TS]

00:34:22 ◼   ► to influence how the internet thinks now [TS]

00:34:25 ◼   ► may I think they're going to build the [TS]

00:34:27 ◼   ► computers but only so much you can stick [TS]

00:34:29 ◼   ► in a book that's a really [TS]

00:34:31 ◼   ► interesting insight Monty the idea that [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► the people who kind of operated on top [TS]

00:34:34 ◼   ► and use the tools did more influence [TS]

00:34:36 ◼   ► than the people actually built the tools [TS]

00:34:38 ◼   ► so a book like where wizard stay up late [TS]

00:34:40 ◼   ► which wasn't in the in the Charter for [TS]

00:34:42 ◼   ► this can be happier Matthew lion book [TS]

00:34:44 ◼   ► that is the that is a good origins of [TS]

00:34:46 ◼   ► the internet book there there are a [TS]

00:34:49 ◼   ► bunch of other other sort of similar [TS]

00:34:51 ◼   ► similar books but I think you're right [TS]

00:34:52 ◼   ► you're right about that this is a dense [TS]

00:34:54 ◼   ► book on lots it's like there's a lot to [TS]

00:34:58 ◼   ► my paper back it's like the type is not [TS]

00:35:00 ◼   ► very big and there are a whole lot of [TS]

00:35:01 ◼   ► pages so there's a whole lot of [TS]

00:35:02 ◼   ► different stories of of this history [TS]

00:35:06 ◼   ► alright can I talk about the Cuckoo's [TS]

00:35:08 ◼   ► egg please i love that book so much so [TS]

00:35:12 ◼   ► I'll i do too i love tokens egg and when [TS]

00:35:15 ◼   ► we had the chance to revisit it here [TS]

00:35:19 ◼   ► I jumped at the chance to go back and [TS]

00:35:21 ◼   ► reread it i don't read a lot of books [TS]

00:35:23 ◼   ► it helps that I forgotten everything [TS]

00:35:25 ◼   ► that happened in it so i got to be I got [TS]

00:35:28 ◼   ► to enjoy that story again for those who [TS]

00:35:31 ◼   ► haven't read it the Cuckoo's egg it's a [TS]

00:35:32 ◼   ► mystery [TS]

00:35:33 ◼   ► essentially it's a it's a mystery story [TS]

00:35:35 ◼   ► of a guy cliff Stoll is Berkeley hippie [TS]

00:35:38 ◼   ► right spike to work at uphill to the [TS]

00:35:42 ◼   ► Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory he's an [TS]

00:35:44 ◼   ► astrophysicist he's basically just doing [TS]

00:35:46 ◼   ► this is a day job in between star gigs [TS]

00:35:48 ◼   ► yeah they basically lost if they didn't [TS]

00:35:51 ◼   ► have an astro a uh an astronomy job for [TS]

00:35:54 ◼   ► him and so we they tried to keep his job [TS]

00:35:56 ◼   ► they transferred him to do I t even [TS]

00:35:59 ◼   ► though he was not really an IT guy and [TS]

00:36:00 ◼   ► there were the two kind of like stuffy [TS]

00:36:02 ◼   ► IT guys and at the Lawrence Berkeley Lab [TS]

00:36:04 ◼   ► but they let him you know they let him [TS]

00:36:06 ◼   ► he knew he knew a little bit about as a [TS]

00:36:08 ◼   ► computer's he was a computer like [TS]

00:36:11 ◼   ► enthusiasts and he also knew astronomy [TS]

00:36:13 ◼   ► and so was not a bad combination but [TS]

00:36:15 ◼   ► very early in his time as an IT guy [TS]

00:36:18 ◼   ► Lawrence Berkeley Lab they may find a [TS]

00:36:20 ◼   ► 75-cent discrepancy on their accounting [TS]

00:36:25 ◼   ► system which leads him to discover that [TS]

00:36:27 ◼   ► there's been a hacker creating accounts [TS]

00:36:30 ◼   ► in there in there a computer and then [TS]

00:36:32 ◼   ► using the their accounts to tunnel to [TS]

00:36:35 ◼   ► other parts of essentially the internet [TS]

00:36:38 ◼   ► and this unfolds into a story that's [TS]

00:36:43 ◼   ► told across different state [TS]

00:36:45 ◼   ► it's and different countries and gets [TS]

00:36:47 ◼   ► the CIA the FBI the NSA and most [TS]

00:36:50 ◼   ► terrifyingly the German postal service [TS]

00:36:53 ◼   ► yeah and follow investigating what's [TS]

00:36:55 ◼   ► going on and there's this hippie this [TS]

00:36:58 ◼   ► anti-authoritarian hippie is is like I [TS]

00:37:01 ◼   ► would normally have nothing to do with [TS]

00:37:03 ◼   ► anything but i just want to do the right [TS]

00:37:04 ◼   ► thing here and he gets crap from his [TS]

00:37:06 ◼   ► friends who are like why are you why are [TS]

00:37:07 ◼   ► you meeting with the CIA man this guy is [TS]

00:37:10 ◼   ► a hacker guy he's just looking around [TS]

00:37:11 ◼   ► he's cool yeah at this point in [TS]

00:37:15 ◼   ► computing history everybody felt that [TS]

00:37:18 ◼   ► everybody a lot of people help passwords [TS]

00:37:20 ◼   ► or wrong man yeah everything should be [TS]

00:37:22 ◼   ► everything man that was [TS]

00:37:25 ◼   ► government-funded or grant funded so [TS]

00:37:26 ◼   ► this gets to like the JSTOR argument [TS]

00:37:28 ◼   ► today of all the Aaron Swartz and all [TS]

00:37:30 ◼   ► that is like if all this is being funded [TS]

00:37:32 ◼   ► by public funds and Republicans it right [TS]

00:37:35 ◼   ► to elegant what's being active way [TS]

00:37:37 ◼   ► what's being kept secret unless it's you [TS]

00:37:38 ◼   ► know super secret government stuff and [TS]

00:37:40 ◼   ► then you have you know the war games / [TS]

00:37:42 ◼   ► real genius scenario right now I just [TS]

00:37:44 ◼   ► think it's interesting that some of the [TS]

00:37:46 ◼   ► very same people that were keenly in [TS]

00:37:48 ◼   ► favor of everything being opened at the [TS]

00:37:50 ◼   ► time have made a 180 degree turn to [TS]

00:37:54 ◼   ► being very into cryptography you think [TS]

00:37:56 ◼   ► yeah like actually everything's about [TS]

00:37:59 ◼   ► privacy the wrong [TS]

00:38:01 ◼   ► new plan helps it flips it around though [TS]

00:38:03 ◼   ► because the cryptography is to protect [TS]

00:38:05 ◼   ► you from the government to protect you [TS]

00:38:07 ◼   ► from not play the government from you [TS]

00:38:08 ◼   ► all I don't think they made a [TS]

00:38:09 ◼   ► fundamental philosophical change but [TS]

00:38:11 ◼   ► their tactics area had made from we [TS]

00:38:14 ◼   ► don't need passwords to we need [TS]

00:38:17 ◼   ► impossible to break passwords it [TS]

00:38:20 ◼   ► what I really love about this book is [TS]

00:38:21 ◼   ► how effortlessly he weaves his whole [TS]

00:38:23 ◼   ► happy birthday hippie existence like the [TS]

00:38:25 ◼   ► day he shines off work to go listen to [TS]

00:38:27 ◼   ► the Grateful Dead by parking himself on [TS]

00:38:29 ◼   ► a hillside and just like taking the [TS]

00:38:30 ◼   ► concept for free and there's like a [TS]

00:38:32 ◼   ► chapter that ends with his chocolate [TS]

00:38:33 ◼   ► chip cookie recipe and there's like an [TS]

00:38:36 ◼   ► interlude a free chapter he's like [TS]

00:38:38 ◼   ► making his wedding shirt while thinking [TS]

00:38:40 ◼   ► about work and I like the moment I [TS]

00:38:42 ◼   ► laughed out loud and couldn't stop that [TS]

00:38:44 ◼   ► there's a moment where he his shoes are [TS]

00:38:46 ◼   ► wet so he decides to dry them in the [TS]

00:38:48 ◼   ► microwave LC cloud of smoke and he [TS]

00:38:52 ◼   ► throws it throws it the shoes in the [TS]

00:38:54 ◼   ► glass of the microwave out onto the [TS]

00:38:56 ◼   ► driveway with shatters but then he's [TS]

00:38:58 ◼   ► going to [TS]

00:38:58 ◼   ► to fix it also we put some vanilla on [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► the stove and while he's cleaning but he [TS]

00:39:02 ◼   ► forgets that he's got the vanilla so [TS]

00:39:04 ◼   ► then that burns they decided an apology [TS]

00:39:06 ◼   ► to his girlfriend's gonna bake some [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► cookies but the cookie slide off of the [TS]

00:39:09 ◼   ► cookie sheet and onto the bottom and [TS]

00:39:10 ◼   ► they burn and this is the state that she [TS]

00:39:13 ◼   ► finds him in and it's just it'sit's very [TS]

00:39:15 ◼   ► funny also if you work at the at [TS]

00:39:16 ◼   ► Lawrence Berkeley Lab you're right [TS]

00:39:18 ◼   ► uphill from the Greek Theatre if the [TS]

00:39:19 ◼   ► Grateful better playing you're gonna be [TS]

00:39:21 ◼   ► listening regardless you might as well [TS]

00:39:22 ◼   ► go outside [TS]

00:39:24 ◼   ► yeah that's where he was he has he's [TS]

00:39:25 ◼   ► like it was a beautiful evening there's [TS]

00:39:27 ◼   ► some fog coming in and it just sounded [TS]

00:39:29 ◼   ► like such a great life you know it's a [TS]

00:39:30 ◼   ► it's a really well written book because [TS]

00:39:32 ◼   ► he combines being extremely technical it [TS]

00:39:36 ◼   ► spots with being extremely endearing [TS]

00:39:39 ◼   ► yes yes I was so much personality in [TS]

00:39:42 ◼   ► this book is a great character of of [TS]

00:39:44 ◼   ► this book because this is a mystery [TS]

00:39:45 ◼   ► story he's the investigator you've got [TS]

00:39:47 ◼   ► this [TS]

00:39:47 ◼   ► you couldn't write a better story right [TS]

00:39:49 ◼   ► it is it is this this shaggy hippie guy [TS]

00:39:53 ◼   ► he-he's berkeley guy but he also has a [TS]

00:39:55 ◼   ► scientist and he understands this stuff [TS]

00:39:57 ◼   ► and he's dogging in pursuit of this and [TS]

00:39:59 ◼   ► he knows that the person is doing [TS]

00:40:00 ◼   ► something wrong even though a lot of [TS]

00:40:03 ◼   ► culture says it's okay he knows that [TS]

00:40:05 ◼   ► something is going wrong here and it [TS]

00:40:07 ◼   ► leads him down this path where where you [TS]

00:40:09 ◼   ► know he's got all of the the nice things [TS]

00:40:12 ◼   ► about his character that that his you [TS]

00:40:14 ◼   ► know is his girlfriend and that roommate [TS]

00:40:16 ◼   ► and and they come up with a whole crazy [TS]

00:40:18 ◼   ► plot while while taking a shower and [TS]

00:40:20 ◼   ► operation showerhead yeah all this great [TS]

00:40:22 ◼   ► stuff Enya and then also you've got the [TS]

00:40:24 ◼   ► mystery I mean you it's such a it's a [TS]

00:40:26 ◼   ► great combination and it's just so much [TS]

00:40:27 ◼   ► about the period where he's like [TS]

00:40:30 ◼   ► literally calling up law enforcement [TS]

00:40:32 ◼   ► saying hey there people from like we [TS]

00:40:35 ◼   ► don't know we're breaking into [TS]

00:40:37 ◼   ► government things and doing searches for [TS]

00:40:39 ◼   ► four straight nuclear weapons and Star [TS]

00:40:42 ◼   ► Wars program and things like that and [TS]

00:40:45 ◼   ► the response is are they stealing money [TS]

00:40:48 ◼   ► well then we're not interested computer [TS]

00:40:49 ◼   ► crime that's not a thing [TS]

00:40:51 ◼   ► why did you put those two words together [TS]

00:40:53 ◼   ► strangely you can still have that [TS]

00:40:54 ◼   ► conversation with law enforcement today [TS]

00:40:56 ◼   ► is the amazing art so the more things [TS]

00:40:58 ◼   ► change the more they stay the same I [TS]

00:40:59 ◼   ► thought I was struck by that there's [TS]

00:41:01 ◼   ► still a question of who are the police [TS]

00:41:03 ◼   ► of of the internet and the answer is the [TS]

00:41:05 ◼   ► kind of aren't any and all that the [TS]

00:41:07 ◼   ► tactics have changed the the attitude [TS]

00:41:09 ◼   ► the law enforcement often has I [TS]

00:41:11 ◼   ► he finds sympathetic people but even [TS]

00:41:13 ◼   ► with the sympathetic people he finds are [TS]

00:41:15 ◼   ► more concerned about using him to prove [TS]

00:41:16 ◼   ► a point which is that there are people [TS]

00:41:18 ◼   ► that security is bad like I i love the [TS]

00:41:22 ◼   ► fact that he keeps talking about these [TS]

00:41:24 ◼   ► systems that all ship with their with [TS]

00:41:26 ◼   ► with no passwords they are default [TS]

00:41:28 ◼   ► passwords like that's out-of-the-box [TS]

00:41:30 ◼   ► they come with fully privilege system [TS]

00:41:32 ◼   ► administrator accounts with a stock [TS]

00:41:34 ◼   ► password and unless you change it [TS]

00:41:37 ◼   ► somebody can just get in so that's bad [TS]

00:41:39 ◼   ► but what's even worse is there's a part [TS]

00:41:41 ◼   ► of the book where somebody that i think [TS]

00:41:43 ◼   ► the the the Air Force talks to somebody [TS]

00:41:45 ◼   ► at an Air Force Base and basically says [TS]

00:41:47 ◼   ► change all the passwords and six months [TS]

00:41:49 ◼   ► later he finds that there's a break in [TS]

00:41:52 ◼   ► there and the guys like I told them to [TS]

00:41:54 ◼   ► change the passwords did they just [TS]

00:41:55 ◼   ► didn't do it well and then you but then [TS]

00:41:57 ◼   ► you have every router in America [TS]

00:41:58 ◼   ► everyone in the world ships with the [TS]

00:42:00 ◼   ► password admin you find things like all [TS]

00:42:02 ◼   ► the voting machines in America by some [TS]

00:42:04 ◼   ► company has the password 1234 that ever [TS]

00:42:06 ◼   ► been changed at the TSA holds up [TS]

00:42:09 ◼   ► pictures of their close-up keys for a [TS]

00:42:11 ◼   ► photograph of their master luggage keys [TS]

00:42:13 ◼   ► like nothing has changed yeah they [TS]

00:42:15 ◼   ► actually Madison hack from what i read [TS]

00:42:18 ◼   ► happened because their system password [TS]

00:42:20 ◼   ► was password 1234 [TS]

00:42:22 ◼   ► oh my god and that's our company guys [TS]

00:42:24 ◼   ► entire business model is 100-percent [TS]

00:42:27 ◼   ► data security here I really i re-read [TS]

00:42:30 ◼   ► couch like a few times and I think I [TS]

00:42:32 ◼   ► read it last a while ago but I remember [TS]

00:42:34 ◼   ► very distinctly I would always liked him [TS]

00:42:36 ◼   ► because he was self aware of read books [TS]

00:42:38 ◼   ► like that like you read on the jonmar [TS]

00:42:40 ◼   ► coughs book or he wrote it with to tomo [TS]

00:42:43 ◼   ► show more I which was right let's see [TS]

00:42:45 ◼   ► the few years later that was a takedown [TS]

00:42:47 ◼   ► about the kevin Mitnick so the thing [TS]

00:42:50 ◼   ► there is written to tomah was the guy [TS]

00:42:51 ◼   ► who helped take him down and Mark off [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► came on to write the book and there's a [TS]

00:42:56 ◼   ► lot of questions about how particularly [TS]

00:42:58 ◼   ► accurate the story is whether Mitnick [TS]

00:43:00 ◼   ► actually did you know damages all these [TS]

00:43:02 ◼   ► things about you know what he actually [TS]

00:43:03 ◼   ► steal using social engineering all that [TS]

00:43:05 ◼   ► but i think that book is very serious [TS]

00:43:08 ◼   ► it's like there's a sky is running and [TS]

00:43:10 ◼   ► we're finding him there's this [TS]

00:43:11 ◼   ► relentless pursuer who's a genius [TS]

00:43:12 ◼   ► computers like cliff Stoll book is like [TS]

00:43:14 ◼   ► I'm is total goofball and he knows any [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► revels in his own goofiness enjoys it [TS]

00:43:19 ◼   ► and he has those coming to [TS]

00:43:21 ◼   ► god-knows-where you talk about where you [TS]

00:43:22 ◼   ► go you know he's like what am i doing [TS]

00:43:24 ◼   ► lawn for [TS]

00:43:24 ◼   ► people ask me why my pursuing this so [TS]

00:43:27 ◼   ► there's that nice amount of [TS]

00:43:28 ◼   ► self-reflection that makes the book [TS]

00:43:30 ◼   ► enjoyable gives you a position as a [TS]

00:43:31 ◼   ► reader to have sympathy for him and also [TS]

00:43:34 ◼   ► in enjoy it but you know I don't know I [TS]

00:43:37 ◼   ► think it's that the story as a whole is [TS]

00:43:39 ◼   ► you agree with it like something is [TS]

00:43:41 ◼   ► wrong here like you know there's [TS]

00:43:42 ◼   ► something not right and it should be put [TS]

00:43:45 ◼   ► correct but it's very very hard to make [TS]

00:43:47 ◼   ► that happen [TS]

00:43:48 ◼   ► yeah and it helps that at the end you [TS]

00:43:50 ◼   ► find out it's german hackers being paid [TS]

00:43:53 ◼   ► by the Russian government that the KGB [TS]

00:43:55 ◼   ► KGB are paying for secrets from these [TS]

00:43:59 ◼   ► german hackers and in any fantastic [TS]

00:44:01 ◼   ► twist they set up so one of my favorite [TS]

00:44:04 ◼   ► things in the book is a set of this [TS]

00:44:05 ◼   ► operation showerhead where they invent a [TS]

00:44:08 ◼   ► character who's a secretary at LBL they [TS]

00:44:10 ◼   ► invent an entire division called SDI net [TS]

00:44:14 ◼   ► which has strategic defense initiative [TS]

00:44:15 ◼   ► is the code for the Ronald Reagan's Star [TS]

00:44:17 ◼   ► Wars project so they set this all up [TS]

00:44:19 ◼   ► they create I get the sense to that at [TS]

00:44:22 ◼   ► this point he his he mentioned it a few [TS]

00:44:24 ◼   ► points like he is spending a lot of time [TS]

00:44:26 ◼   ► on this because they invent dozens or [TS]

00:44:29 ◼   ► hundreds of documents about SDI net just [TS]

00:44:31 ◼   ► to create this honey pot and and you [TS]

00:44:34 ◼   ► know the hacker seems interested at [TS]

00:44:36 ◼   ► first he dumped some of the files you [TS]

00:44:38 ◼   ► know he comes back a little bit later [TS]

00:44:39 ◼   ► but seems to have lost some interest in [TS]

00:44:41 ◼   ► it and then they get a letter for the [TS]

00:44:46 ◼   ► fictitious secretary and they're like [TS]

00:44:49 ◼   ► what the hell just happened and it's [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► from most part in pittsburgh [TS]

00:44:52 ◼   ► pennsylvania and it's from a guy with a [TS]

00:44:54 ◼   ► Hungarian name and it turns out that [TS]

00:44:56 ◼   ► he's basically somebody that you know [TS]

00:44:58 ◼   ► the KGB checker the KGB called somebody [TS]

00:45:01 ◼   ► who call somebody who sends who then [TS]

00:45:03 ◼   ► they say mail this letter they hand him [TS]

00:45:05 ◼   ► a letter and emails the letter a sign [TS]

00:45:08 ◼   ► and mail this and yeah they're checking [TS]

00:45:10 ◼   ► up on this on the secrets that are being [TS]

00:45:12 ◼   ► sold to them how crazy is that and this [TS]

00:45:14 ◼   ► is all just these cookies in Berkeley [TS]

00:45:15 ◼   ► who r RA yeah whatever chicken streaker [TS]

00:45:19 ◼   ► if we could like get someone in the snag [TS]

00:45:21 ◼   ► called Operation showerhead and then it [TS]

00:45:22 ◼   ► happens inside go oh my gosh [TS]

00:45:24 ◼   ► but that's another funny thing in this [TS]

00:45:27 ◼   ► book is that one of the people he meets [TS]

00:45:30 ◼   ► one of the spea CIA guys he meets a guy [TS]

00:45:33 ◼   ► named Robert Morris who basically him [TS]

00:45:35 ◼   ► away [TS]

00:45:36 ◼   ► sweeps away and take some somewhere to [TS]

00:45:38 ◼   ► meet this and they get and he gets he [TS]

00:45:41 ◼   ► gets like a certificate of appreciation [TS]

00:45:44 ◼   ► they're like that come on the guy from [TS]

00:45:45 ◼   ► berkeley want something he's helped us [TS]

00:45:46 ◼   ► out here now that nobody tells the story [TS]

00:45:49 ◼   ► about like talking this guy who's got [TS]

00:45:50 ◼   ► all these questions about astronomy he's [TS]

00:45:52 ◼   ► obviously an astronomy nut and and he [TS]

00:45:55 ◼   ► gets the sense like there's always [TS]

00:45:56 ◼   ► throughout this information like [TS]

00:45:58 ◼   ► astronomy and dealing with the CIA that [TS]

00:46:00 ◼   ► the keyhole satellites are floating in [TS]

00:46:01 ◼   ► the background there's like nobody talks [TS]

00:46:03 ◼   ► about the keyhole satellite but like [TS]

00:46:04 ◼   ► imagine what if there was a hubble space [TS]

00:46:06 ◼   ► telescope pointing the other way he's [TS]

00:46:08 ◼   ► like well that was oh say no more right [TS]

00:46:10 ◼   ► so he talks to this robert morris guy [TS]

00:46:12 ◼   ► and tells the story about about how he's [TS]

00:46:14 ◼   ► a chain smoker any and he drives the [TS]

00:46:16 ◼   ► windows rolled up in the winter and in [TS]

00:46:18 ◼   ► Maryland and he almost dies in the car [TS]

00:46:20 ◼   ► of asphyxiation from this and I and and [TS]

00:46:23 ◼   ► you know knowing it now you realize what [TS]

00:46:25 ◼   ► he's setting up which is one of the last [TS]

00:46:26 ◼   ► chapters of the book and it's kind of [TS]

00:46:28 ◼   ► not relevant to his story but it's just [TS]

00:46:29 ◼   ► too good not to put in the book is that [TS]

00:46:31 ◼   ► Robert Morris his son is the guy who did [TS]

00:46:35 ◼   ► the first big internet worm and shut [TS]

00:46:38 ◼   ► down like thousands of computers i want [TS]

00:46:41 ◼   ► boy was in college and so that at the [TS]

00:46:43 ◼   ► end of the book that story comes up and [TS]

00:46:45 ◼   ► it's really funny because he said but [TS]

00:46:46 ◼   ► you know it's like it's it's that guy's [TS]

00:46:48 ◼   ► kid who did this and that guys like he's [TS]

00:46:50 ◼   ► a cyber security guy at the CIA but his [TS]

00:46:53 ◼   ► kid shut down half the internet with his [TS]

00:46:55 ◼   ► with the first internetwork yeah he [TS]

00:46:57 ◼   ► sneaks it up on you because it's the [TS]

00:46:59 ◼   ► character the father's is called Bob [TS]

00:47:02 ◼   ► Morris Morrison exclusively and then [TS]

00:47:04 ◼   ► there's a chapter they know that this [TS]

00:47:06 ◼   ► new world was created by somebody named [TS]

00:47:07 ◼   ► rtm and they can't figure out who that [TS]

00:47:09 ◼   ► is [TS]

00:47:10 ◼   ► yeah and Bob horses like it's robert [TS]

00:47:13 ◼   ► robert morris jr true story but so [TS]

00:47:17 ◼   ► that's what that's a crazy thing to so I [TS]

00:47:19 ◼   ► i highly recommend this book just [TS]

00:47:20 ◼   ► because it's fun but but what's funny [TS]

00:47:23 ◼   ► about it is that these issues it's all [TS]

00:47:25 ◼   ► different today right i mean now we've [TS]

00:47:27 ◼   ► got cryptography the actions that people [TS]

00:47:29 ◼   ► like the the hacker who stole is chasing [TS]

00:47:33 ◼   ► are far more complicated today they but [TS]

00:47:37 ◼   ► you know at the same time they're not [TS]

00:47:38 ◼   ► that different the tools are different [TS]

00:47:40 ◼   ► the tools are more sophisticated but [TS]

00:47:42 ◼   ► it's still a game being played today [TS]

00:47:43 ◼   ► it's just being played at a edit on a [TS]

00:47:46 ◼   ► different board than it was back then [TS]

00:47:48 ◼   ► yeah yeah it's um it's funny how much it [TS]

00:47:52 ◼   ► seemed like well that's a blip and [TS]

00:47:54 ◼   ► they'll fix it i think even in those [TS]

00:47:57 ◼   ► days as like well this is sort of [TS]

00:47:58 ◼   ► hilarious in an apt but you know it'll [TS]

00:48:01 ◼   ► get better and then the more i was [TS]

00:48:02 ◼   ► working you know started doing stuff on [TS]

00:48:04 ◼   ► the internet 94 I had my password file [TS]

00:48:05 ◼   ► stolen and sent to me and 96 by somebody [TS]

00:48:09 ◼   ► and you know I've had peace [TS]

00:48:11 ◼   ► yeah i was still encrypted in but you [TS]

00:48:13 ◼   ► know was taken and I had some break-ins [TS]

00:48:15 ◼   ► in those days which is something that [TS]

00:48:16 ◼   ► happens in this book is they don't know [TS]

00:48:18 ◼   ► why they're stealing the password files [TS]

00:48:19 ◼   ► and they realize they're doing a [TS]

00:48:20 ◼   ► dictionary y'all search offline of the [TS]

00:48:23 ◼   ► password file and finding the single [TS]

00:48:25 ◼   ► word passwords that match some of those [TS]

00:48:27 ◼   ► passwords probably still in use [TS]

00:48:29 ◼   ► probably oh that's four years later [TS]

00:48:30 ◼   ► Robert yeah it's not it's just nothing [TS]

00:48:32 ◼   ► got better everything that works because [TS]

00:48:34 ◼   ► number lessons learned at that time [TS]

00:48:36 ◼   ► wherever really put into effect there [TS]

00:48:38 ◼   ► were no regulations and you know [TS]

00:48:40 ◼   ► regulations don't work obviously by [TS]

00:48:41 ◼   ► themselves but it didn't become like [TS]

00:48:43 ◼   ► standard practice it wasn't concerned [TS]

00:48:45 ◼   ► computer companies want to make things [TS]

00:48:46 ◼   ► as fast as possible [TS]

00:48:48 ◼   ► going back to the soul of a new machine [TS]

00:48:50 ◼   ► is you gotta ship and you gotta ship [TS]

00:48:52 ◼   ► insecurity something you do later years [TS]

00:48:54 ◼   ► later and that's still pay the price [TS]

00:48:56 ◼   ► one of the biggest disconnect I had to [TS]

00:48:58 ◼   ► cover our essay this year the security [TS]

00:49:00 ◼   ► conference and one of the biggest [TS]

00:49:01 ◼   ► disconnects i had was I would sit in [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► keynote after keynote where you'd have [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► sea level executives and CSO and people [TS]

00:49:07 ◼   ► who are Troubleshooters and fight the [TS]

00:49:09 ◼   ► stuff for living saying there is no [TS]

00:49:11 ◼   ► technological solution you have to work [TS]

00:49:14 ◼   ► on human behavior and it and then I [TS]

00:49:17 ◼   ► would walk onto the show floor and [TS]

00:49:19 ◼   ► Moscow knee east and west were both [TS]

00:49:22 ◼   ► taken up with with nothing but vendors [TS]

00:49:24 ◼   ► promising all manner of hardware and [TS]

00:49:25 ◼   ► software solution get your get your [TS]

00:49:27 ◼   ► technological solutions i saw a [TS]

00:49:29 ◼   ► commercial saying our kids will not have [TS]

00:49:30 ◼   ► to worry about passwords at all [TS]

00:49:32 ◼   ► well you know what in the RSA thing that [TS]

00:49:34 ◼   ► the two that the front that things keep [TS]

00:49:36 ◼   ► popping overview of where everyone kept [TS]

00:49:37 ◼   ► saying we live in a post node world we [TS]

00:49:39 ◼   ► have to assume that anyone anywhere can [TS]

00:49:42 ◼   ► leak your information that's that's your [TS]

00:49:44 ◼   ► assumption is that your systems are [TS]

00:49:45 ◼   ► inherently unsafe because people use [TS]

00:49:46 ◼   ► them and that and then they move on to [TS]

00:49:49 ◼   ► the only thing you can really do is [TS]

00:49:51 ◼   ► invest in human capital human behavior [TS]

00:49:53 ◼   ► and you have to work on on behavioral [TS]

00:49:55 ◼   ► training because technology can't do [TS]

00:49:57 ◼   ► that for people and yet i walked on the [TS]

00:49:59 ◼   ► show floor and I thought okay surely [TS]

00:50:01 ◼   ► there's some enter [TS]

00:50:01 ◼   ► prising consultants or something or like [TS]

00:50:03 ◼   ► we dispatch a team of nerds to brainwash [TS]

00:50:06 ◼   ► your people into practicing decent [TS]

00:50:08 ◼   ► security [TS]

00:50:08 ◼   ► no it's all you know install the [TS]

00:50:10 ◼   ► software and and you can nanny your [TS]

00:50:12 ◼   ► users this way you can monitor that you [TS]

00:50:14 ◼   ► can block this you can do that you can [TS]

00:50:16 ◼   ► make them change their password to [TS]

00:50:17 ◼   ► another 12 character password every two [TS]

00:50:19 ◼   ► weeks that will be high security if you [TS]

00:50:22 ◼   ► look at you if you look at the Cuckoo's [TS]

00:50:24 ◼   ► egg which again highly recommend i think [TS]

00:50:27 ◼   ► anybody would like it on the the wood [TS]

00:50:31 ◼   ► the lesson I take away from it is it [TS]

00:50:33 ◼   ► it's yes it seems kind of like an [TS]

00:50:36 ◼   ► innocent time and yet it also says that [TS]

00:50:39 ◼   ► in the in 1986 and 87 on the roots you [TS]

00:50:44 ◼   ► know on the early internet where there [TS]

00:50:48 ◼   ► were you know people had pcs and macs [TS]

00:50:50 ◼   ► and stuff but thats so much was going on [TS]

00:50:52 ◼   ► in these backs and unix systems that [TS]

00:50:53 ◼   ► were out there accent EMS systems that [TS]

00:50:56 ◼   ► all of all or most of the problems that [TS]

00:50:59 ◼   ► we see today were already there [TS]

00:51:02 ◼   ► it's just a matter of degree and that [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► the world of the world is different and [TS]

00:51:07 ◼   ► simpler in some ways back then it was [TS]

00:51:10 ◼   ► but it in other ways not different at [TS]

00:51:13 ◼   ► all because it's the same issues dogs to [TS]

00:51:16 ◼   ► this day about security about the people [TS]

00:51:18 ◼   ► problems with security about insecure [TS]

00:51:21 ◼   ► software being fundamental problem its [TS]

00:51:25 ◼   ► it and organizations being incapable of [TS]

00:51:27 ◼   ► handling it and at several points [TS]

00:51:29 ◼   ► they're like they just want to shut [TS]

00:51:30 ◼   ► their their door to the hacker and they [TS]

00:51:32 ◼   ► know the actor will just find other ways [TS]

00:51:33 ◼   ► in and they will lose their ability to [TS]

00:51:35 ◼   ► to follow him and people and and you [TS]

00:51:38 ◼   ► know the functionaries that these [TS]

00:51:39 ◼   ► organizations are like I just know i'm [TS]

00:51:40 ◼   ► just going to close the hole and move on [TS]

00:51:41 ◼   ► with my life and so no you can't but [TS]

00:51:44 ◼   ► that and let you know that kind of stuff [TS]

00:51:45 ◼   ► still happens today so on that level I [TS]

00:51:47 ◼   ► think it's you know it's quaint [TS]

00:51:49 ◼   ► technology wise but totally applicable [TS]

00:51:52 ◼   ► to the issues that the technology world [TS]

00:51:55 ◼   ► faces even today I think can we talk [TS]

00:51:58 ◼   ► about a few other books briefly yes [TS]

00:51:59 ◼   ► before we do let's talk about who [TS]

00:52:01 ◼   ► everything else that's in the idea if [TS]

00:52:03 ◼   ► that's any seller or the Attic wherever [TS]

00:52:06 ◼   ► you keep your books about technology [TS]

00:52:08 ◼   ► from the eighties and nineties but i can [TS]

00:52:10 ◼   ► go fast yeah okay well for something [TS]

00:52:11 ◼   ► that the media lab post states [TS]

00:52:14 ◼   ► sold in the Machine and it predates [TS]

00:52:17 ◼   ► microservices Hannah Kash it's actually [TS]

00:52:21 ◼   ► kind of the Middle Ages microservice 95 [TS]

00:52:23 ◼   ► right media lab is the 88 and Stewart [TS]

00:52:27 ◼   ► Brand who is catalog right the media lab [TS]

00:52:31 ◼   ► I remember reading this thing and it [TS]

00:52:32 ◼   ► blew my mind the late 1980s because it [TS]

00:52:35 ◼   ► was about this incredible institute of [TS]

00:52:37 ◼   ► the future in which sorry this is the [TS]

00:52:39 ◼   ► future is another thing not [TS]

00:52:41 ◼   ► yeah and so the yes you read this yes I [TS]

00:52:44 ◼   ► understand it's incredible and it [TS]

00:52:46 ◼   ► totally shaped and influenced my life [TS]

00:52:48 ◼   ► said this is what I want more so than [TS]

00:52:50 ◼   ► other books i read it and said this is [TS]

00:52:52 ◼   ► what I want I want technology that's [TS]

00:52:54 ◼   ► meaningful that has an artistic [TS]

00:52:56 ◼   ► component that's something I get my [TS]

00:52:58 ◼   ► hands into and that could help change [TS]

00:53:00 ◼   ► the world and maybe it's cool but it's [TS]

00:53:02 ◼   ► not about money it's about doing things [TS]

00:53:04 ◼   ► that are transformative and then I was [TS]

00:53:05 ◼   ► lucky enough after college I went to [TS]

00:53:08 ◼   ► work for this division of kodak all the [TS]

00:53:09 ◼   ► center for creative imaging which was [TS]

00:53:11 ◼   ► created specifically to be a little bit [TS]

00:53:13 ◼   ► like the media lab without any resources [TS]

00:53:15 ◼   ► not the whole story but i gotta have a [TS]

00:53:17 ◼   ► little taste of what it was like to be [TS]

00:53:19 ◼   ► in a Camelot of like super creative [TS]

00:53:21 ◼   ► artistic people coming together an [TS]

00:53:22 ◼   ► intersection of Technology culture you [TS]

00:53:25 ◼   ► know art and business and it was like oh [TS]

00:53:26 ◼   ► you know and that's something i've [TS]

00:53:28 ◼   ► wanted to recapture but i think the book [TS]

00:53:30 ◼   ► is incredible slice and I just went to [TS]

00:53:32 ◼   ► the media lab never been there before i [TS]

00:53:33 ◼   ► visited it with a friend whose grad [TS]

00:53:35 ◼   ► student their post grad student and he'd [TS]

00:53:38 ◼   ► be too around the whole place and it's [TS]

00:53:39 ◼   ► you know they had it's bigger it's very [TS]

00:53:40 ◼   ► expensive but it continues to further [TS]

00:53:42 ◼   ► this mission and really really [TS]

00:53:44 ◼   ► interesting stuff continues to come out [TS]

00:53:46 ◼   ► of it i just winds up going often more [TS]

00:53:48 ◼   ► quickly into commerce than necessarily [TS]

00:53:51 ◼   ► having an impact on culture but it still [TS]

00:53:53 ◼   ► let's wear a lot of ideas from the [TS]

00:53:54 ◼   ► Bitcoin the guy who's the main guy [TS]

00:53:56 ◼   ► behind bitcoin now works at MIT because [TS]

00:53:58 ◼   ► his group at the media lab because the [TS]

00:54:00 ◼   ► group that was supposed to foster [TS]

00:54:02 ◼   ► Bitcoin fell apart and Sony labs like [TS]

00:54:04 ◼   ► eight you come here with some other [TS]

00:54:05 ◼   ► people will do a cryptocurrency group [TS]

00:54:07 ◼   ► and we'll just pay for your celery so we [TS]

00:54:09 ◼   ► can keep Bitcoin software going someone [TS]

00:54:12 ◼   ► and just quickly like being digital by [TS]

00:54:14 ◼   ► nicholas negroponte and everything that [TS]

00:54:16 ◼   ► was four years ago [TS]

00:54:17 ◼   ► yeah about it Sammy lab this is eight [TS]

00:54:19 ◼   ► years later he was the head of the media [TS]

00:54:20 ◼   ► lab and then drove it through its [TS]

00:54:23 ◼   ► tremendous growth there's what the [TS]

00:54:24 ◼   ► Dormouse said which is a doormouse said [TS]

00:54:27 ◼   ► which is a subtitles how the sixties [TS]

00:54:30 ◼   ► counterculture shape the personal [TS]

00:54:31 ◼   ► computer industry market value and [TS]

00:54:32 ◼   ► marketing 2006 it's a really lovely book [TS]

00:54:36 ◼   ► and Stuart brands in there and kevin [TS]

00:54:37 ◼   ► kelly and all these interesting people [TS]

00:54:39 ◼   ► you know Steve Jobs all the people who [TS]

00:54:41 ◼   ► founded companies and it's a look at [TS]

00:54:43 ◼   ► like I really legitimate look about how [TS]

00:54:45 ◼   ► drugs and a new ways of thinking [TS]

00:54:48 ◼   ► actually did open up this does for [TS]

00:54:50 ◼   ► people that led directly into stuff that [TS]

00:54:53 ◼   ► was commercial and the one thing I'll [TS]

00:54:55 ◼   ► say about fake steve jobs his book I [TS]

00:54:57 ◼   ► don't necessarily recommend reading [TS]

00:54:58 ◼   ► isn't that bad is that I think his non [TS]

00:55:01 ◼   ► is fictional book about jobs actually [TS]

00:55:04 ◼   ► cracked part of that code in a way that [TS]

00:55:06 ◼   ► dormouse is really the nonfiction [TS]

00:55:07 ◼   ► version of how you take utopian ideals [TS]

00:55:10 ◼   ► and mind explaining expanding I you know [TS]

00:55:13 ◼   ► drugs other stuff and you turn it into [TS]

00:55:14 ◼   ► something people can hold in their hand [TS]

00:55:16 ◼   ► and it has this effect on them as if [TS]

00:55:18 ◼   ► they're part of it even though it's just [TS]

00:55:19 ◼   ► purely an object so that those are mine [TS]

00:55:22 ◼   ► that's my arrangements I've got a book [TS]

00:55:24 ◼   ► i'd like to throw in yeah if people [TS]

00:55:26 ◼   ► enjoyed hackers and what to really [TS]

00:55:28 ◼   ► immerse themselves in these people i [TS]

00:55:32 ◼   ► really like the new hackers dictionary [TS]

00:55:34 ◼   ► yes the third edition i think is the [TS]

00:55:38 ◼   ► last edition that was published as a [TS]

00:55:39 ◼   ► book it was edited by eric s Raymond [TS]

00:55:41 ◼   ► America he was inexplicably nominated [TS]

00:55:44 ◼   ► for best new writer for the hugo this [TS]

00:55:46 ◼   ► year based on one short story but [TS]

00:55:49 ◼   ► obviously the distance unexplainable but [TS]

00:55:52 ◼   ► that's not so fast [TS]

00:55:53 ◼   ► that's how about an explainable he wrote [TS]

00:55:55 ◼   ► one story anyway it has been [TS]

00:55:59 ◼   ► luckily moved online and you can just [TS]

00:56:02 ◼   ► wallow in the ridiculous lingo of lots [TS]

00:56:07 ◼   ► of different hacker subcultures the sort [TS]

00:56:11 ◼   ► of people who look at El Camino rial a [TS]

00:56:13 ◼   ► long road in California and say that's [TS]

00:56:15 ◼   ► way too long to be a real number and [TS]

00:56:18 ◼   ► it's just I'm calling it el camino [TS]

00:56:19 ◼   ► bignum because that's the kind of number [TS]

00:56:22 ◼   ► that can hold more digits [TS]

00:56:25 ◼   ► right by i like how we all decided that [TS]

00:56:31 ◼   ► but that it is a great document of the [TS]

00:56:37 ◼   ► hackers era people the the only 1 i've [TS]

00:56:41 ◼   ► got is back when I got the Cuckoo's egg [TS]

00:56:43 ◼   ► and soul of the new machine and all the [TS]

00:56:45 ◼   ► other one that I read was the hacker [TS]

00:56:47 ◼   ► crackdown law and disorder on the [TS]

00:56:49 ◼   ► Electronic Frontier by bruce sterling [TS]

00:56:51 ◼   ► i'm gonna have sterling that I don't [TS]

00:56:55 ◼   ► remember it at all i think it was like a [TS]

00:56:57 ◼   ► federal statute that Bruce Sterling had [TS]

00:56:59 ◼   ► to be on everybody's bookshelf from 1992 [TS]

00:57:02 ◼   ► 1999 that was about the big secret [TS]

00:57:04 ◼   ► service attack that led to the eff and [TS]

00:57:09 ◼   ► yeah focused on the Steve Jackson games [TS]

00:57:11 ◼   ► attack i read a book that was kind of [TS]

00:57:13 ◼   ► written attempted to be written the [TS]

00:57:14 ◼   ► Spirit of the books are talking about [TS]

00:57:16 ◼   ► and it was one of the most depressing [TS]

00:57:18 ◼   ► books are written in a while that was [TS]

00:57:19 ◼   ► Scott Rosenberg dreaming and code [TS]

00:57:21 ◼   ► oh I love that woman it's kinda [TS]

00:57:23 ◼   ► depressing because you think about all [TS]

00:57:24 ◼   ► of the work that went into it and they [TS]

00:57:25 ◼   ► still don't have a complete product and [TS]

00:57:27 ◼   ► like any epilogue he's like well i'm [TS]

00:57:29 ◼   ► still using google calendar because i [TS]

00:57:31 ◼   ► know these guys are smart they worked [TS]

00:57:32 ◼   ► really hard but a that because I think [TS]

00:57:38 ◼   ► the best explanation for non-programmers [TS]

00:57:40 ◼   ► i think a non program could read the [TS]

00:57:41 ◼   ► book and go oh this is why software ever [TS]

00:57:44 ◼   ► ships [TS]

00:57:45 ◼   ► yeah yeah yeah it's it's just it's just [TS]

00:57:48 ◼   ► so depressing in a way because you're [TS]

00:57:50 ◼   ► you're reading it and you're thinking [TS]

00:57:51 ◼   ► about all of the people who poured their [TS]

00:57:53 ◼   ► time in their energy and their passion [TS]

00:57:55 ◼   ► and they just keep getting tripped up by [TS]

00:57:57 ◼   ► out like each other or even things that [TS]

00:57:59 ◼   ► are breaking the code or people's [TS]

00:58:01 ◼   ► endless quest for perfection like a lot [TS]

00:58:03 ◼   ► of this book is about how perfect is the [TS]

00:58:04 ◼   ► enemy of good [TS]

00:58:06 ◼   ► yes and it's it's it's the kind of book [TS]

00:58:09 ◼   ► where if it had come out like in the [TS]

00:58:11 ◼   ► eighties and nineties i think a lot of [TS]

00:58:12 ◼   ► people like wow those software engineers [TS]

00:58:14 ◼   ► will learn their kind of crazy and my [TS]

00:58:16 ◼   ► goodness and now you're like oh god yeah [TS]

00:58:19 ◼   ► corporate life it's but it was [TS]

00:58:22 ◼   ► interesting as it really is written in [TS]

00:58:23 ◼   ► the spirit of the books from the [TS]

00:58:25 ◼   ► eighties and nineties in this by Scott [TS]

00:58:26 ◼   ► Rosenberg who is one of who used to be [TS]

00:58:28 ◼   ► like a really big over at salon and they [TS]

00:58:32 ◼   ► were like way back in the news they were [TS]

00:58:34 ◼   ► kind of spiritual successor to like the [TS]

00:58:36 ◼   ► whole Clifford stole we are hippies who [TS]

00:58:38 ◼   ► just really [TS]

00:58:39 ◼   ► of life in technology and things are [TS]

00:58:40 ◼   ► cool man and be suspicious of authority [TS]

00:58:43 ◼   ► and I think Rosen you have to look at [TS]

00:58:45 ◼   ► the tone rosenberg took and shaping tech [TS]