The Incomparable

282: Head Clara


  [Music] [TS]

  the in comfortable number 282 january to [TS]

  answer 16 [TS]

  hello everybody welcome back to the [TS]

  uncomfortable i'm your host Jason smell [TS]

  i am joined by fine panel of people this [TS]

  week we're going to talk about the [TS]

  recently-concluded series 9 of Doctor [TS]

  Who from the BBC you know I definitely [TS]

  one of my favorites and so we talk about [TS]

  a lot we don't do the flash cast on this [TS]

  podcast feed me more because we do them [TS]

  over at the TV podcast feed part of the [TS]

  great and comfortable network that posts [TS]

  like 2 pi guess today so many podcast [TS]

  you can listen to the mall but anyway if [TS]

  you like if you like our episode by [TS]

  episode you can check that out but we [TS]

  like to check in at the end of a doctor [TS]

  who season and do an episode on the [TS]

  incomparable about the season as a whole [TS]

  and I've got a great panel to join me to [TS]

  talk about that Glenn fleischmann you [TS]

  you know you may remember him from the [TS]

  four episodes he was on last year but [TS]

  he's been in both of the episode so far [TS]

  this year he's here Michael and by my [TS]

  math that means I'll be a hundred so the [TS]

  episodes 4 2016 you're on pace for 52 [TS]

  episodes this year so keep it up [TS]

  also on pace for 52 episodes this year [TS]

  is David Laura hello hello stranger [TS]

  you're a day and more and already well [TS]

  not hard now [TS]

  ok just a little competitive the trash [TS]

  talk now and and trying to repeat erase [TS]

  her raise her standing back to what it [TS]

  was in 2014 Eric and also 242 hello [TS]

  hello [TS]

  yeah and i need to get my numbers back [TS]

  up last year was embarrassing [TS]

  I'm happy to have you here to talk [TS]

  doctor who this is one of those things [TS]

  where I now have so many friends who are [TS]

  Doctor Who podcasters as well which is [TS]

  great also hear our control group he's [TS]

  never seen Doctor Who before wait a [TS]

  second that's Babylon 5 it is serious [TS]

  advancing from Radio Free Skaro hello hi [TS]

  there I was actually hoping to get some [TS]

  words in about Star Wars if you've got a [TS]

  podcast series 9 starts with a two-part [TS]

  up as a lot of two part or paired [TS]

  episodes this season the Steven Moffat [TS]

  written magician's apprentice and [TS]

  witch's familiar in which the doctor [TS]

  meets Davros as a child as a as an old [TS]

  shriveled monster man and uh and missy [TS]

  is there and there's a lot of the Clara [TS]

  Missy interaction on earth where the [TS]

  doctor isn't and then also on Skaro [TS]

  where they are with [TS]

  they end up so this this was our kickoff [TS]

  and and i'm interested what everybody [TS]

  father this uh I you know I as with all [TS]

  these I did the episodes on the on the [TS]

  TV podcast about them but it's different [TS]

  to think about it sort of after awhile [TS]

  vs after literally haven't seen it an [TS]

  hour before the thing that strikes me [TS]

  knowing the whole season artist i'm [TS]

  surprised that this is the only time we [TS]

  saw Missy this season but it this is not [TS]

  kicking off other than the mention of [TS]

  the confession dial the opening to [TS]

  partner is not about the series wide [TS]

  story arc it you know dhafra Davros [TS]

  doesn't come back the Daleks don't [TS]

  really come back Missy doesn't come back [TS]

  it's just a two-parter about Davros and [TS]

  the Daleks and missy and the doctor alka [TS]

  and and Clara all kind of turned up [TS]

  together which is kind of nice i kinda [TS]

  anarkali and but of course it didn't it [TS]

  didn't stop nerds from you know [TS]

  extrapolating everything from that [TS]

  opening to party because they've come to [TS]

  expect it over the years to say whatever [TS]

  is laid down in episode one is gonna [TS]

  come back and episode 12 [TS]

  there was even a I think when dealing [TS]

  with Clarence because you know Claire [TS]

  was leaving at the end of the series [TS]

  everybody knew that and I think a whole [TS]

  bunch of people were sort of thinking oh [TS]

  perhaps or something to do with the [TS]

  Dalek in this story and perhaps she's [TS]

  actually dead in the Dalek and we'll [TS]

  find out at the end of the series that [TS]

  he's actually been dead the whole series [TS]

  and but don't nothing nothing that can [TS]

  pass he says to her I'm sorry I'm so [TS]

  sorry and I was like oh that's a little [TS]

  foreshadowing and then there's no payoff [TS]

  I love the clear for the callback know [TS]

  about when we've seen Jenna Coleman [TS]

  inside the Dalek before right that was [TS]

  that was that was kind of nice [TS]

  interesting use of divers here I think [TS]

  Julian bleach did a really good job is [TS]

  Davros i'm not entirely sure i buy the [TS]

  whole haha but I've double-crossed you [TS]

  haha but I've double-crossed you kind of [TS]

  thing that happens in the end but there [TS]

  are a lot of really great kind of [TS]

  johnston moments between them there are [TS]

  interesting and the parallel between [TS]

  those two and then and then missy kind [TS]

  of using Clara as her anti companion i [TS]

  thought that was all kind of very very [TS]

  clever even while the plot was kinda [TS]

  creaking along [TS]

  yeah i like i like to very much the I I [TS]

  was ok with the diverse you know you [TS]

  know that the chess game the one up each [TS]

  other even at the end [TS]

  because it seems sort of fitting for [TS]

  their given what they have gone through [TS]

  those two characters over the last many [TS]

  many years and and as far as if i was [TS]

  glad that this didn't come back that we [TS]

  didn't get more Daleks and moored [TS]

  avarice at the end made that already [TS]

  didn't ya and Lynn Lynn on Verity she [TS]

  has like that which he refers to as like [TS]

  the Steven Moffat rule any season that's [TS]

  written by steven moffat she just she [TS]

  refuses to really judge as a season [TS]

  until it's completely done and she comes [TS]

  back she's always withholding judgment [TS]

  because he's always going to do [TS]

  something that you don't expect probably [TS]

  and and i think i love the fact that [TS]

  this episode like Stephen said got all [TS]

  the nerds you know getting their [TS]

  conspiracy theories already it was none [TS]

  of that probably the only little Davros [TS]

  thing that that bugs me a little bit was [TS]

  the idea that he's just been keeping his [TS]

  real eyes closed [TS]

  this whole time yeah I thought he didn't [TS]

  have any eyes I just I don't know that [TS]

  was that was maybe a little a little [TS]

  step too far that he was able to open [TS]

  his eyes and they looked so healthy and [TS]

  young in that i did--like that he double [TS]

  crossed himself too i think we talked [TS]

  about it maybe maybe offline or online [TS]

  rather not a podcast that that uh he is [TS]

  saying one thing a high fool you but [TS]

  really he had had a real emotional [TS]

  moment with the doctor and there was you [TS]

  know it was presented i think was active [TS]

  beautifully i think the whole bit [TS]

  was I was like something's going on here [TS]

  but I thought maybe maybe we're getting [TS]

  a different kind of insight maybe [TS]

  somebody double-crosses Davros comes [TS]

  from outside this scene or the Daleks [TS]

  come in and in these like haha fooled [TS]

  you into grabbing the cable but I'm like [TS]

  now you revealed a little too much for [TS]

  yourself i love those moments when they [TS]

  transcend the script they transcend the [TS]

  acting and they become that you know [TS]

  mythology that that has a it's routine [TS]

  is rooted in emotion but it's also like [TS]

  that was a great like deeply but many [TS]

  layers seen in the middle of a good [TS]

  episode 2 [TS]

  yeah I i like to think that Davros I [TS]

  think you put said well some some more [TS]

  he gave some more information out that [TS]

  perhaps intended to and I i want to [TS]

  think that I want to think that we've [TS]

  gotten some insight and this wasn't all [TS]

  just kind of a sham [TS]

  that's part of his plot that we got a [TS]

  little bit of insight into your [TS]

  character i got just like showing him as [TS]

  a child you know [TS]

  Davros had to come from somewhere and be [TS]

  somebody before he be [TS]

  name a monster and so to see that is [TS]

  interesting i loved and I'll enjoyed [TS]

  listening to this we talk about it on [TS]

  the opening TV podcast but we also [TS]

  talked about it or I heard are people [TS]

  talking about it on radio free Skaro and [TS]

  on on very the idea that this call back [TS]

  to genesis of the Daleks and the [TS]

  audacity of Steven Moffat to name-check [TS]

  and like reference in so many ways this [TS]

  hallowed piece of doctor who classic [TS]

  Doctor Who cannon that that's ground [TS]

  that I mean you gotta you gotta you [TS]

  gotta have guts to to to go there and he [TS]

  went there and and that moment that I [TS]

  saw the fog kind of blowing across the [TS]

  battlefield I was like oh geez its [TS]

  genesis of the Daleks and that's exactly [TS]

  what it was so full credit to him for [TS]

  having that the guts to do that well [TS]

  select the political timing that we have [TS]

  you know would you kill baby diverse and [TS]

  then then it's could you kill baby [TS]

  Hitler was what like days later this [TS]

  translator please watch doctor who [TS]

  wanted you'll get all the answers that [TS]

  you need your passion to baby Hitler [TS]

  yeah and I i mean i like that none of [TS]

  the plot machinations really came back [TS]

  later or any of the things except for [TS]

  the confession dial but it it fits [TS]

  automatically with things that are going [TS]

  on through the rest of the season which [TS]

  I really liked [TS]

  yeah i love the sheen stealing bits by [TS]

  missy because she's so wonderful i just [TS]

  michelle gomez fantastic but that the [TS]

  i'm thinking of making this is just [TS]

  nonchalantly has jenna strong as a Clara [TS]

  strung up and then when she says [TS]

  something really clever like I maybe [TS]

  you're not sandwiches just for absolute [TS]

  immorality and like it's just it's so [TS]

  rare as a character that that [TS]

  unmotivated buy anything particular [TS]

  except the desire to cause chaos active [TS]

  their own well it's great [TS]

  yeah she refers to Clara to as you know [TS]

  the puppy in the relationship which is [TS]

  which is actually something i think i [TS]

  have done before on podcast just talking [TS]

  about the doctor and how he looks at [TS]

  humans whether he wants to admit it or [TS]

  not that you know that he doesn't see [TS]

  humans is quite on the same level of him [TS]

  much as he tries and Missy just of [TS]

  course is the kind of person who will [TS]

  flat out state that [TS]

  right although i'm not i'm never [TS]

  convinced whether that's species humans [TS]

  that way or he sees everybody that way [TS]

  it's right breaking his own kind is that [TS]

  way too i met so as much I agree I i [TS]

  like the idea that we don't have this [TS]

  big story in the beginning that comes [TS]

  around in the end I think that was good [TS]

  i didn't need to see that climactic [TS]

  Davros Daleks whatever at the end of the [TS]

  season [TS]

  that said i am actually a little bit [TS]

  disappointed that we didn't get more [TS]

  michelle gomez because just great and [TS]

  she's really great but they're clearly [TS]

  paving the way for future episodes [TS]

  especially know that you just her making [TS]

  a deal with the Daleks and we never see [TS]

  actually what happens what the terms are [TS]

  and how they'll come back in the next [TS]

  year and you know what's gonna happen [TS]

  next series here in series after that [TS]

  sure and I mean she did get two episodes [TS]

  that's true but she's so great I mean I [TS]

  I i I'm not sure I felt give me more [TS]

  missy right away at the end of series 8 [TS]

  but but at the end of this two-part I [TS]

  was like I don't really want to wait a [TS]

  whole series to get more of michelle [TS]

  gomez as Missy because she was a she was [TS]

  a lot of fun just that dear my dearest [TS]

  enemy business it's like how much she [TS]

  loves the doctor [TS]

  yeah you know I think that was good with [TS]

  the with the Saxon master also on black [TS]

  actor's name the wonderful Johnson [TS]

  Thank You Johnson was wonderful and just [TS]

  you know chudai mean live with a screen [TS]

  was bleeding when he was done it was [TS]

  just so shoot up but just you got that [TS]

  sense that they were in it together with [TS]

  the two of them they were boys together [TS]

  they grown up together they have this [TS]

  affection that was so terrible in their [TS]

  difference in how they approach the [TS]

  universe it would literally tear the [TS]

  universe apart and i thought the Missy [TS]

  what part was like a little slightly [TS]

  more general version of that she's like [TS]

  who would you know [TS]

  well who else would he trust for [TS]

  Christ's sake you know but also a little [TS]

  imbalance a little stuff i don't want to [TS]

  say stalkery but a little imbalanced [TS]

  where the doctors has a little bit more [TS]

  healthy connection to reality then then [TS]

  the master does and so and but I i like [TS]

  this because this is as with any James [TS]

  Bond villain you know after a while it [TS]

  did the conflict should be resolved and [TS]

  the why is it not resolved and the [TS]

  answer is you know in reality is because [TS]

  we want to keep seeing them in conflict [TS]

  but in the in the show I i think this is [TS]

  a very clever way of doing it which is [TS]

  that you [TS]

  all of them the master Missy they don't [TS]

  really want to kill the doctor they just [TS]

  want the doctor's attention they want to [TS]

  play with the doctor they want to be fun [TS]

  traps are flirting you know and i think [TS]

  that's an interesting take on it that is [TS]

  yeah that's a little bit meta but it's [TS]

  also I think fun to have that be the [TS]

  relationship began because of that use [TS]

  you do trust her I mean I you know when [TS]

  it was missing car running around the [TS]

  the basement of the Dalek City there and [TS]

  and like you know mr. was sort of saying [TS]

  we'll get the Dalek it's the perfect way [TS]

  to sort of break in and it's just a way [TS]

  of like tricking Claire to get into the [TS]

  Daleks so she can become you know her [TS]

  personal killing machine but we believed [TS]

  it because we we knew that missy is sort [TS]

  of working towards saving the doctor for [TS]

  some strange reason is because of [TS]

  michelle gomez that that it's such a [TS]

  believable performance and and I mean I [TS]

  love her as an agent of chaos which [TS]

  gonna have one then again and as a [TS]

  coyote trickster kind of character from [TS]

  from mythology minutes she's and and I I [TS]

  was not a fan last year I loved her in [TS]

  this I was going to throw out the [TS]

  Riddler to a little bit and where it's [TS]

  like you know just the Riddler really [TS]

  want to kill Batman a lot of times I [TS]

  think the Riddler just likes oh he's [TS]

  playing with my puzzles yay right now [TS]

  because it's fun to play with Batman and [TS]

  I get a little bit of that for Missy to [TS]

  he's the only one who answers them [TS]

  that's right that's right no one else [TS]

  will solve my dazzles Robin might I like [TS]

  a plausible equal to as opposed to the [TS]

  Emperor Palpatine like he gets a lot of [TS]

  paperwork out of that whole situation [TS]

  when I can determine that much else and [TS]

  missy is is the case delight and what [TS]

  she's doing and master he's doing that [TS]

  goes beyond that like destroying the [TS]

  universe it's like no peace having a [TS]

  good time she had a good time [TS]

  alright let's move on and talk about the [TS]

  toby White House two-part episode under [TS]

  the lake and before the flood this is [TS]

  the one you may remember with ghosts on [TS]

  Lukey goes on under underwater base and [TS]

  then one of the things that I thought [TS]

  was a clever structural thing is that [TS]

  you essentially get part two before you [TS]

  get part one where there in this flooded [TS]

  old area and then part 2 goes back in [TS]

  time to see how it got flooded [TS]

  I think maybe less cleverly than I had [TS]

  hoped it would get resolved but i still [TS]

  think it's structurally kind of funny [TS]

  yet to say what if we did a story where [TS]

  you see part two and then you see part 1 [TS]

  and then you see the resolution because [TS]

  that's what the structure is here and [TS]

  you so you get to kind of different [TS]

  feeling episodes and it's a base under [TS]

  siege and a bunch of kind of classic [TS]

  Doctor Who stuff so what did everybody [TS]

  think of this 1i I quite liked it i love [TS]

  the the mood [TS]

  i loved how quickly the the setting and [TS]

  like the the setting up of the episode [TS]

  happened because when I when I you know [TS]

  it was revealed that there's gonna be a [TS]

  two-parter the base underseas I just [TS]

  would've expected a sort of a [TS]

  languishing part1 just sort of setting [TS]

  the mood and everything but we knew [TS]

  exactly what was happening before the [TS]

  opening credits rolled on that first [TS]

  episode and so the rest is just sort of [TS]

  left atmosphere and everything and I i [TS]

  love dumb i love many things i love the [TS]

  I love the the deaf person in charge i [TS]

  actually started off as a sort of a [TS]

  conceited the story but just she became [TS]

  a strong character on her own right [TS]

  I love the flashcards that the doctor [TS]

  has in order to try and appear you know [TS]

  human and sort of i have emotional [TS]

  compassion for people i quite enjoyed [TS]

  that and um and yeah it was it was it [TS]

  was really well directed I'm i think my [TS]

  favorite part was the very beginning of [TS]

  the second part where you know at time [TS]

  shows which is sort of try and disguise [TS]

  info dumps as a as a two-handed [TS]

  conversation this info dump is Peter [TS]

  Capaldi talking directly to camera [TS]

  talking about basically what the [TS]

  solution of the episode will be going [TS]

  with you know with with no protection [TS]

  whatsoever i was just bold and fantastic [TS]

  loved that although in those other call [TS]

  for to the fact that he's talking to [TS]

  Clara in his head in the end a [TS]

  heaven-sent is I mean because that's the [TS]

  same sort of scenario can be what could [TS]

  be i mean i think it's that it's [TS]

  presented that same light and I'm like [TS]

  it's him being clever in his head he [TS]

  already knows what he's saying but he's [TS]

  saying it to ask the audience to his you [TS]

  know companion is not present as he [TS]

  speaks it right [TS]

  I never made that connection before but [TS]

  that that makes perfect sense at the [TS]

  time because I [TS]

  don't like it when characters break the [TS]

  fourth wall so at the time I was trying [TS]

  to fit that part together with the very [TS]

  last scene when Clara is actually on the [TS]

  TARDIS and I wanted it to stitch [TS]

  together perfectly [TS]

  so the doctor was actually explaining it [TS]

  to Clara however I've watched the [TS]

  episode i watched it like two three four [TS]

  times or something like that now and the [TS]

  the way that that the camera keeps [TS]

  moving and the way that the doctor keep [TS]

  speaking to the camera in different [TS]

  angles it absolutely cannot yes you are [TS]

  there talking to because he keeps [TS]

  changing direction and she's nowhere to [TS]

  be found except he asks her about [TS]

  Beethoven so it's a callback whether she [TS]

  understands and I guess exactly left to [TS]

  the imagination but i like it because it [TS]

  reminded me of of of uh listen which has [TS]

  the same kind of structure where the [TS]

  doctor is basically talking to the [TS]

  camera or is he [TS]

  but I don't know I kind of feel like [TS]

  that if there's ever anybody who's going [TS]

  to narrate his own internal monologue [TS]

  allowed as he wanders around it's the [TS]

  doctor and I just I love the bootstrap [TS]

  paradox thing I I like how it's done [TS]

  I like that he's got the guitar that he [TS]

  plays Beethoven's fifth on that kicks [TS]

  into the doctor who theme with the [TS]

  guitar going in the background [TS]

  yes yes like the guitar so much more [TS]

  than I thought when they first [TS]

  introduced with the guitar i thought [TS]

  what a gimmick and I I really adored as [TS]

  a unique and and your lively surprising [TS]

  element was great who knew that then [TS]

  Peter old the oldest actor to be cast as [TS]

  the doctor in ages [TS]

  Peter Capaldi would be at his best with [TS]

  an electric guitar some sonic sunglasses [TS]

  and hoodie who knew I like that i think [TS]

  the bats the whole scene also ties up [TS]

  with with heaven-sent yeah and that i [TS]

  think it all sort of takes place in his [TS]

  if you will Sherlockian mind Palace is [TS]

  actually has talked to himself you know [TS]

  that we are the again I mean Steven [TS]

  Moffat leaves no stone unturned in and I [TS]

  notice turn some people off but at least [TS]

  no stone unturned in me kind of like [TS]

  metatextual aspect of Doctor Who I when [TS]

  I was obsessed with Doctor Who in high [TS]

  school I read the the skull basically [TS]

  scholarly work doctor who the unfolding [TS]

  text which is a fascinating thing but it [TS]

  was like it really opened my mind to the [TS]

  idea of taking a silly TV show [TS]

  really seriously and and what I love [TS]

  that Steven Moffat is that he does that [TS]

  he he says why don't we do an episode [TS]

  about the questions we ask ourselves [TS]

  about what why what why doctor who does [TS]

  what it does and this is a great example [TS]

  of that where it's like he's talking to [TS]

  us we are his internal monologue we are [TS]

  his audience [TS]

  he says he literally says what am i [TS]

  without an audience [TS]

  this ain't right unless you can look so [TS]

  Cara so I mean anyway you could say that [TS]

  so that's winking and its fourth wall [TS]

  breaking and all that but i don't know i [TS]

  think it's more than that I think that [TS]

  it's it's this character it's not [TS]

  unreasonable to understand that this [TS]

  character is performing for at least an [TS]

  imagined audience if not a real [TS]

  television audience and and and and [TS]

  throughout the season we see that and [TS]

  and Peter Capaldi does well it'sit's i [TS]

  find it yeah it's a lot of fun and I [TS]

  mean throughout he's done a really good [TS]

  job as a showrunner dwelling on on what [TS]

  is story was story mean what is myth you [TS]

  know and and just sort of drawing all of [TS]

  these different things that with with [TS]

  each season with each different doctor [TS]

  he's written for and and this was sort [TS]

  of like the next step it's like okay now [TS]

  we're just we're gonna talk it's not [TS]

  just myth it's not just for retail I'm [TS]

  talking to you as an audience right you [TS]

  pointed out stories is so true you know [TS]

  back in the fifth doctor with the fifth [TS]

  doctor Cena we're all stories in the end [TS]

  and here it's it's it's really playing [TS]

  around with the fact that the doctor [TS]

  literally is a story is just you know [TS]

  giving up the pretense and now he's [TS]

  talking directly to us on any with Amy [TS]

  Pond the same that first the mat smith [TS]

  season season 5 steven moffat first [TS]

  season was all about fairy tales right [TS]

  and and that the doctor was a fairytale [TS]

  and here we have something sort of [TS]

  similar to that i like it i I you know I [TS]

  i enjoyed i think that is as modern as [TS]

  doctor who gets and I i get people [TS]

  saying that they wanted they they'd like [TS]

  to see something different you know we [TS]

  are in the Steven Moffat era now it is [TS]

  closer to the end than just the [TS]

  beginning and there will be a change in [TS]

  in leadership that leads to a show [TS]

  runner who does something different but [TS]

  I think we'll look back on this and say [TS]

  on this area and say why Steven Moffat [TS]

  pushed a lot of boundaries and made some [TS]

  bold decisions [TS]

  22 question as a lifelong doctor who fan [TS]

  to question how does the show work what [TS]

  what you know [TS]

  yeah what can we do that is not that is [TS]

  outside the rules of the show or [TS]

  comments on how the show works and and [TS]

  to have a talented intelligent schreiter [TS]

  and showrunner do that I think this is a [TS]

  very special kind of error from the show [TS]

  even though i would also probably agree [TS]

  that if the show was only ever this it [TS]

  would be too much but it's not only [TS]

  after this it's doctor who it will be [TS]

  something else again just as it was [TS]

  something else before and and being [TS]

  himself a lifelong fan too and saying [TS]

  both you know how do we make it [TS]

  interesting but also how do i tell [TS]

  stories in this show that's been around [TS]

  for 50 years that are different that [TS]

  have never been told in this way yeah [TS]

  exactly when he gets to settle the [TS]

  cannon to there's things that he's [TS]

  probably been thinking about for decades [TS]

  he's like okay this is kannan now that [TS]

  thing that I wanted to say it is and [TS]

  that's great headcanon is now can [TS]

  although very fun i think one of the [TS]

  things and this is skipping ahead a [TS]

  little bit and we will get back on the [TS]

  MSO track here is where i found great [TS]

  restraint in some ways with him a little [TS]

  like Howard's in the force awakens there [TS]

  are a lot of of details that are left to [TS]

  the to the audience's imagination [TS]

  I feel like Steven Moffat delights in in [TS]

  the loose threads [TS]

  yeah and while he likes to pick up [TS]

  threads that he bothered him when he was [TS]

  a fan [TS]

  he also delights in leaving loose [TS]

  threads behind for either his successors [TS]

  or just for the fans to drive themselves [TS]

  crazy about and and i love that because [TS]

  it would be so easy to tie everything up [TS]

  with a bow and I do appreciate the fact [TS]

  that Steven Moffat does not want to do [TS]

  that he wants to leave messy bits for [TS]

  the audience to get frustrated about [TS]

  I think he also wants to leave bits for [TS]

  you know the the alternate materials to [TS]

  fill in so books and Big Finish and I [TS]

  mean he's he's he because he kind of [TS]

  came from that world he is very first [TS]

  doctor who think was actually a short [TS]

  story I think he's cognizant of the fact [TS]

  that there are other professionals out [TS]

  there doing dr. great doctor who work in [TS]

  other room [TS]

  homes and now I think he likes the idea [TS]

  that he has given them an extra little [TS]

  bit of a playground let's let's move on [TS]

  talk about the oh and one last thing [TS]

  about episode 74 just tiny t-shirt is it [TS]

  deals with story the fact i thought it [TS]

  was a very clever idea i've seen it used [TS]

  before in other contexts including Snow [TS]

  Crash really been no Stephenson is uh [TS]

  this idea of rewriting the brains [TS]

  firmware and that idea that i'm just [TS]

  looking at some characters on a wall and [TS]

  only did we actually saw it it rewrote [TS]

  their firmware so that they would have [TS]

  this kind of weird electromagnetic echo [TS]

  after they died I was like that was [TS]

  ingenious and interesting it 3i didn't [TS]

  love that episode pair that much i love [TS]

  the look more than the the plot there's [TS]

  some great bits in it but that got me [TS]

  for something I was very a very clever [TS]

  bit but that was not exploited too much [TS]

  was just sort of in the air as an [TS]

  interesting idea that your your brain is [TS]

  hacked by just the act of seeing the [TS]

  characters on the side of the wall [TS]

  inside the thing is realistic a little [TS]

  linguistic programming spooky let me [TS]

  take a break to tell you about our [TS]

  sponsor this episode of the [TS]

  uncomfortable brought to you by the [TS]

  zombies run virtual race now this is [TS]

  such a great idea we all know running [TS]

  helps get you fit a lot of people run [TS]

  i've been running on and off for the [TS]

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  and you want to stick something in your [TS]

  ear holes maybe you'll listen to [TS]

  podcasts maybe listen to music this is a [TS]

  virtual race that makes running fun [TS]

  whenever you're out in the world you [TS]

  head out to run five or 10 k with your [TS]

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  any thrilling audio story it's specially [TS]

  designed to match the distance you're [TS]

  running so while you're running you'll [TS]

  hear zombies clothes on your heels [TS]

  you'll need to pick up the pace you'll [TS]

  hear fighter jets roaring overhead the [TS]

  ticking of a bomb that only you can stop [TS]

  yet to run to get there a lot of really [TS]

  clever ideas an immersive story that [TS]

  also enter interacts with you and you're [TS]

  running and the zombies run virtual race [TS]

  you're not just running around the track [TS]

  you're running to save the world [TS]

  you get a you when you enter the virtual [TS]

  race you get the audio adventure series [TS]

  that takes you from the start your [TS]

  training all the way to the end of the [TS]

  race you get a professional quality [TS]

  technical running t finishers medal and [TS]

  a bunch of other great gear [TS]

  Plus $55 its way cheaper and more fun [TS]

  than a gym membership the first zombies [TS]

  run virtual race was held in October of [TS]

  2015 was completely sold out that 25 [TS]

  entries and a ninety-nine point nine [TS]

  percent satisfaction rate so a virtual [TS]

  race and a great story to focus the mind [TS]

  while you're running there [TS]

  here's what you need to go visit zombies [TS]

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  five dollars off your entry that zombies [TS]

  virtual race dot-com and thank you to [TS]

  zombies run for sponsoring the [TS]

  incomparable ok the girl who died the [TS]

  woman who lived this is a paired set of [TS]

  episodes as opposed to a two-parter [TS]

  proper I think Jay Madison and Steven [TS]

  Moffat with a girl who died Catherine [TS]

  regret Organa wrote the woman who lived [TS]

  we meet a shoulder she is a young uh [TS]

  young woman in this village and in the [TS]

  girl who died there are aliens who are [TS]

  not me i don't know taking the [TS]

  testosterone of the Warriors of the [TS]

  village i guess and rent their Vikings [TS]

  it certs is still in my calculator [TS]

  precious bodily fluids let's put it that [TS]

  way [TS]

  yeah and so we get we get all of the in [TS]

  that part 1 we get we get all of that [TS]

  the doctor also uh or is reminded why he [TS]

  chose his face which is an interesting [TS]

  little bit you talk about Steven Moffat [TS]

  kind of answering questions while [TS]

  bringing up other questions and then in [TS]

  the part 2 [TS]

  it's it's uh I like more than a thousand [TS]

  years later and shielder who is saved by [TS]

  the doctor at the end of the first [TS]

  episode and made sort of accidentally [TS]

  immortal he runs into her again by [TS]

  accident or r by plan and we discovered [TS]

  that after a thousand years she sort of [TS]

  can't remember things because she's got [TS]

  a human-sized memory but but she but she [TS]

  and she calls herself me because I guess [TS]

  that's she's the only thing that matters [TS]

  didn't even need a name and we learn [TS]

  more about her in that so this is the [TS]

  paired parent episodes that when i [TS]

  watched them i thought we're not going [TS]

  to lead to some more appearances by [TS]

  maisie williams from Game of Thrones not [TS]

  accurate she actually is in the last two [TS]

  episodes [TS]

  as it turns out and watching his back i [TS]

  was i was a scanning through a bunch of [TS]

  these episodes today before we did this [TS]

  I am impressed by the fact that the [TS]

  mystery of this season was made [TS]

  perfectly clear at the end of episode 5 [TS]

  where the doctor says I've made her a [TS]

  and he gets this look on his face and he [TS]

  says she's a hybrid and and from the [TS]

  perspective of the end of the season you [TS]

  realize that's the moment where he [TS]

  realizes that he what he's just done is [TS]

  created a legendary figure in [TS]

  Gallifreyan history he realized he [TS]

  totally gets it at that moment but [TS]

  that's what he's done but I'm till [TS]

  you've seen the whole season and gone [TS]

  circle back around again you don't [TS]

  realize that i never really so now think [TS]

  about it so she actually the hybrid did [TS]

  cause what was said but she what didn't [TS]

  cause it to happen right it's like it's [TS]

  like Crouching in the in the wreckage of [TS]

  Gallifrey she's there at the end of the [TS]

  yeah but she also sets in the sequence [TS]

  of events because the kind words are [TS]

  afraid of the hybrid it's that circular [TS]

  I want to give Moffat credit for being [TS]

  called back lever that she because he is [TS]

  but I mean some of the stuff i know you [TS]

  read into much of his head canon but she [TS]

  sets into motion by being there the [TS]

  Californians have the production and [TS]

  then she an axe or does the thing that [TS]

  gets the doctor to go into the [TS]

  punishment is so then what's up with the [TS]

  doctor deciding to destroy history to [TS]

  recover Clara and there she's in the [TS]

  ruins so it's very neat i don't think [TS]

  the Marlins actually not that neat [TS]

  because it's only one because because [TS]

  the other so that's the other part of [TS]

  the prophecy was that did you know [TS]

  ruined Gallifrey like destroyed the [TS]

  billion hearts to heal its own another [TS]

  doctor [TS]

  wow that's not better ever so it's it's [TS]

  still it's still very much left [TS]

  headcanon which I love I like that it's [TS]

  very open-ended listen didn't I anything [TS]

  up in and we don't know who the hybrid [TS]

  is ultimately but it is funny that in [TS]

  this moment first she's created by the [TS]

  doctors compassion realizing who he is [TS]

  and what what he stands for and that's [TS]

  why he does this [TS]

  but but there is that great moment upon [TS]

  reflection and and it's it's a it's a [TS]

  perfect thing because it is structured [TS]

  for people who have seen the whole [TS]

  season and are watching it again to go [TS]

  oh look at that where he very clearly is [TS]

  like she's a hybrid and you could [TS]

  see it in his eyes that he he has [TS]

  figured out who she is or as an inkling [TS]

  of who she is and that's all really [TS]

  interesting and then that becomes a [TS]

  threat in this whole season which is the [TS]

  doctor does a good deed because that's [TS]

  who he is and he saves people and that's [TS]

  why he chose the face of Achilles who [TS]

  david tennant's doctor saved in Pompeii [TS]

  but it has ramifications because in this [TS]

  case he's like with Captain Jack [TS]

  Harkness who is who is named checked at [TS]

  a later time because she now can't die [TS]

  and therefore is an anomaly in the [TS]

  universe and they also mention that [TS]

  hybrid business in the first dalla [TS]

  two-parter and that's right them that's [TS]

  the hybrid that that the Time Lords [TS]

  think is the legend that a half Dalek [TS]

  half Time Lord hyper exactly exceeded [TS]

  yeah I I thought it was interesting too [TS]

  that the throwaway bit that was [TS]

  confusing is in the in the woman who [TS]

  lived they make another immortal and [TS]

  that's it and we don't see him again [TS]

  well no because they didn't they didn't [TS]

  say that he was necessarily more like [TS]

  you said it may have burned out the chip [TS]

  in order to actually bring him back so [TS]

  who knows i'm making that up he said [TS]

  maybe right [TS]

  also also there's the fact that she's [TS]

  not i mean not exactly indestructible [TS]

  she wondered if she doesn't get harmed [TS]

  exactly reason she live so long is [TS]

  because she's awesome and that every guy [TS]

  didn't seem quite so awesome so i [TS]

  wouldn't be surprised if you just got [TS]

  his head lopped off accidentally and [TS]

  some point could grow a new one but his [TS]

  head is immortal but his body is that we [TS]

  carry out a convenient that's a text [TS]

  file so you get the face but that's the [TS]

  Christmas episode [TS]

  any other thoughts about I mean about [TS]

  this is interesting setup of the sort of [TS]

  paired like these are the I shielder [TS]

  stories about about the I mean the first [TS]

  the first story is a fairy it feels like [TS]

  a very kind of like standard Doctor Who [TS]

  story there are Vikings and you know and [TS]

  and aliens it's actually my least [TS]

  favorite of the whole sounds I think my [TS]

  favorite my favorite parts of this [TS]

  two-parter were just the the [TS]

  heart-to-heart character bits between [TS]

  the doctor and a shoulder / me [TS]

  yeah and it's when they sort of you know [TS]

  when the brand it brought in that weird [TS]

  lion and everything else that sort of [TS]

  what else [TS]

  it kinda kinda distracted from anyway [TS]

  and Stephen space this space but what's [TS]

  the episode Tom Baker series with the [TS]

  the navigator all I know I was really [TS]

  hoping is gonna be a thorough from [TS]

  warriors game was not every i love that [TS]

  pair those at me I whatever the rep so [TS]

  there any spans love the hell yeah [TS]

  they're totally different space lion's [TS]

  mane anyw Spacelines yeah it's a credit [TS]

  credit amazing williams who I think if [TS]

  you actually time don't how much screen [TS]

  time she had in her four episodes of [TS]

  Doctor Who she might have had more than [TS]

  the whole last season of Game of Thrones [TS]

  oh yeah but I mean she gives four [TS]

  distinct performances of the shoulder in [TS]

  four episodes because she's aged so many [TS]

  times in between and this is a girl who [TS]

  turned 18 during the course of making my [TS]

  series you know like she is a talented [TS]

  young actress [TS]

  yeah it was great to watch him yeah I [TS]

  had that I that's a moment same thought [TS]

  of like because I had a moment during [TS]

  this season where I thought I think I [TS]

  think I'm use maisie williams as as the [TS]

  next companion i did have that moment [TS]

  and I thought well no cuz she's on Game [TS]

  of Thrones and I thought how much work [TS]

  does she do for Game of Thrones really [TS]

  oh right i mean she's in like 15 minutes [TS]

  of Game of Thrones every year [TS]

  she's in very little of it because [TS]

  that's how game of thrones works so you [TS]

  know she yeah she i'm pretty sure she [TS]

  has more screen time and Doctor Who than [TS]

  in Game of Thrones this year how [TS]

  underrated one last little thing that I [TS]

  like which is that the idea of placing [TS]

  you mentioned that she has a human mind [TS]

  so she actually does not have it you [TS]

  know in eternal memory she has a limited [TS]

  memory and she says volumes and I mean [TS]

  it's sort of a gag and she's got you [TS]

  know a library full of volumes of her [TS]

  diary there's no way in any given period [TS]

  of time she can review that enough to [TS]

  reclaim the memory that she lost so [TS]

  there is that a bit there but i think [TS]

  the idea of a boring immortality [TS]

  there's a in the the night of the doctor [TS]

  you know he encounters that the sisters [TS]

  on Khan and karna and they say he's like [TS]

  oh yes the sister it was at the sisters [TS]

  of infinite boredom I've forgotten the [TS]

  sea but he's contemptuous of immortality [TS]

  even as he has this very long life and [TS]

  is now lived as long as the universe [TS]

  possible he threw all his master nations [TS]

  but I just like that idea that the [TS]

  immortality comes in different flavors [TS]

  you've got [TS]

  the captain jack harkness flavor you got [TS]

  the shoulder flavor the doctor is flavor [TS]

  of the oh he left flavor and so forth [TS]

  and and another saying just watching [TS]

  this are thinking about it at least [TS]

  again after seeing the entire series [TS]

  another little through line is the fact [TS]

  that you have Clara's reaction to a [TS]

  shoulder you know saying you know she's [TS]

  just she's great you know I'll fight you [TS]

  for it and in the end [TS]

  Clara actually does get to have her as [TS]

  the companion like our shoulders is [TS]

  close companion ostensibly at the end of [TS]

  the entire series so yeah she didn't [TS]

  really have to fight the doctor for she [TS]

  just got her which by God I i want to [TS]

  see girl I want to hear that big [TS]

  finished like now it's AII like the [TS]

  because it when everybody heard that [TS]

  Maisie Williams in it and and that she's [TS]

  gonna play a huge part and then them as [TS]

  much as Peter Capaldi's been talking [TS]

  about Susan in interviews leading up to [TS]

  the series everyone thought that Maisie [TS]

  Williams going to play Susan in some way [TS]

  shape [TS]

  oh mom what I love what I love the [TS]

  Ronnie what I love is at the end we know [TS]

  yeah what I love it at the end win-win [TS]

  klar runs off fleas Gallifrey in a [TS]

  TARDIS and takes with her companion it's [TS]

  Susan who was of course the companion of [TS]

  the doctor when he took a TARDIS fleeing [TS]

  Gallifrey I just love the the parallels [TS]

  in that in that in that the fact you [TS]

  know the outlandish fan theory was [TS]

  actually sort of born true in the end I [TS]

  i wanted to mention something here which [TS]

  is and I've heard a lot of people say [TS]

  the Clara has a shoulder as her [TS]

  companion here but shields lived [TS]

  millions of years that'll yeah i'm not [TS]

  quite sure I feel like they're both one [TS]

  another's companion at that point they [TS]

  both have different things to offer each [TS]

  other at that point neither of them is [TS]

  really Time Lords they're just they're [TS]

  very interesting characters in their [TS]

  little tartness together it's not quite [TS]

  the parallel but well I mean they're [TS]

  both they're both immortal [TS]

  yes yes shield they're all right another [TS]

  son of mortality has live longer but my [TS]

  car is the one who has actually been [TS]

  taking dr. lessons [TS]

  yes that's yours and she's the one who [TS]

  knows how to pilot the TARDIS so I still [TS]

  I still see it in that way i don't know [TS]

  shoulder might have taken dr. lessons at [TS]

  one point her Billy matters of existence [TS]

  whenever the doctor wasn't happy with [TS]

  her [TS]

  she's sitting there in the in the [TS]

  armchair waiting for someone to show up [TS]

  yeah the ruins of Gallifrey reading the [TS]

  manuals that's what I do that that could [TS]

  be that could pick so let's talk about [TS]

  the episode 78 because we've only gotten [TS]

  to that point the the Zygons this is [TS]

  interesting because it's a directs a [TS]

  direct follow on from the 50th [TS]

  anniversary special which I was [TS]

  surprised by and uh you know if we got [TS]

  you we got unit i think i would argue [TS]

  that unit is poorly run as questionable [TS]

  budgets that appropriate given the [TS]

  history of unit two guys place seventies [TS]

  they hey let's end our leader to america [TS]

  by herself in order to discover things [TS]

  you know I don't think you get for what [TS]

  gets used particularly well I'm not sure [TS]

  what they if they know what to do with [TS]

  unit but why did like about this is we [TS]

  have we get some more Osgood who is an [TS]

  interesting character and is made way [TS]

  more interesting and less of a just a [TS]

  fan proxy in this she's got a real [TS]

  backbone since we discovered that what [TS]

  that there were a pair of us goods igon [TS]

  human and one of them got killed by [TS]

  missy but the other one didnt so that's [TS]

  an interesting twist and we get some uh [TS]

  some really interesting stuff with [TS]

  without with Clara as at whose were [TS]

  doing some stuff on her own and and then [TS]

  ultimately it culminates in a scene in [TS]

  the black archive back where we were in [TS]

  the 50th where Peter Capaldi gives a a [TS]

  speech about a war and about people [TS]

  making easy decisions to go to war and [TS]

  not thinking about the consequences that [TS]

  is performance wise one of I think the [TS]

  highlights of the season even though you [TS]

  know you could argue that it's wrapped [TS]

  in an episode that does that can't live [TS]

  up to what he does in that 10 minute [TS]

  span so you know what that's my that's [TS]

  my take on it is i think these episodes [TS]

  are kind of a mess but there's a bunch [TS]

  of little bits in it that were very good [TS]

  and that Capaldi speech is for the ages [TS]

  it's just a fantastic little bit i think [TS]

  one of the big themes that over arch [TS]

  this whole series is that the idea of [TS]

  consequences and repercussions almost [TS]

  every single one of these these two [TS]

  partners has something in there you know [TS]

  whether it's meeting dad process a child [TS]

  or you didn't [TS]

  turning me into a hybrid or in this case [TS]

  i love the idea that we are finally [TS]

  seeing the fallout of what happened with [TS]

  the Zygons invading I mean they actually [TS]

  got to stay that's the kind of thing [TS]

  that you almost never saw especially in [TS]

  classic who you got a little bit more in [TS]

  early knew who but you know the doctor [TS]

  can't just run away from everything [TS]

  anymore and now we're getting to see [TS]

  what happens after after the fallout [TS]

  sort of appears and the idea that there [TS]

  are Zygons living among us on earth you [TS]

  know just hiding is is super awesome [TS]

  well I suppose the Cylons would probably [TS]

  be pretty ticked off about it from when [TS]

  they come back and find out find out [TS]

  that I got into their how many different [TS]

  people are frozen and ice underneath the [TS]

  sea locked in a time log in and turns [TS]

  out that almost point at this point in [TS]

  Doctor Who timelines there are no actual [TS]

  humans like they're aliens in the sky [TS]

  yeah i think this is a sci-fi novel [TS]

  about that is never a short story about [TS]

  everyone on earth actually being a [TS]

  duplicated personally only if there's [TS]

  not all do it there's a classic science [TS]

  fiction story about how time traveler [TS]

  goes back to the crucifixion of Jesus [TS]

  and discovers that everybody there is a [TS]

  time traveler [TS]

  yeah I know Jason and I talked about [TS]

  episode 74 when the flash cast and I [TS]

  remember saying like you know there's a [TS]

  lot of creates things in this but the [TS]

  payoff a better be good because there's [TS]

  just so many loose ends and you know I [TS]

  feel like the payoff was was pretty good [TS]

  i don't think that episode 7 I lived up [TS]

  as much but I thought a lot of stuff was [TS]

  reckoned in 27 from eight and i quite [TS]

  like the pair much more than I thought [TS]

  especially because the hole is good [TS]

  thing where is she's not even being coy [TS]

  she's like we're both osgood and then [TS]

  the ending where there's another Osgood [TS]

  you're like the potential for redemption [TS]

  is a theme of Doctor Who and most people [TS]

  never take it most aliens he's like look [TS]

  I could save your whole people they got [TS]

  mad and then he has to distract them all [TS]

  or they destroyed themselves when I was [TS]

  David Tennant's move right I'm will give [TS]

  you this one warning well i'm not gonna [TS]

  take it okay well then you're all dead [TS]

  yeah exactly what's gonna happen to [TS]

  destroy everybody because that's so I do [TS]

  sometimes actually the generalization so [TS]

  I mean people like Star Wars fans like [TS]

  to make a gentle fun i suppose of the [TS]

  star wars proclivity to have like every [TS]

  Planet has it [TS]

  on one single ecosystem where we live on [TS]

  a planet that has hundreds of different [TS]

  ecosystems you different climates and [TS]

  things but no no other planets it's [TS]

  either just eyes are just desert or just [TS]

  trees but you can argue that doctor who [TS]

  and sci-fi in general does a very bad [TS]

  job in terms of taking an alien race and [TS]

  and and being so reductive about them [TS]

  and saying well they are evil or there [TS]

  they are you know this is what the [TS]

  aliens do land and one of the things [TS]

  that I think maybe he's even a little [TS]

  underappreciated about the design icon [TS]

  to partner is designed guns this classic [TS]

  Doctor Who enemy from the Loch Ness [TS]

  monster back in the seventies these [TS]

  episodes are all about a split in these [TS]

  igon community on earth essentially this [TS]

  immigrant is icon community and there [TS]

  are radicalized icons who think that [TS]

  it's read only right that they not be [TS]

  high hiding and then there are the ones [TS]

  who just want to live their lives and of [TS]

  course the parallel is probably to [TS]

  something like Syria where there is a [TS]

  refugee crisis and there are people who [TS]

  just want to live their lives and yes [TS]

  there are also radicalized terrorists [TS]

  among them and this the challenge of not [TS]

  generalizing an entire group to be one [TS]

  thing and I like that about this episode [TS]

  i really like that these icons are not a [TS]

  monolith they don't this race doesn't [TS]

  believe one thing that they have a [TS]

  schism they're individuals they take [TS]

  different sides of an issue we meet the [TS]

  Zygons who just want to stay looking [TS]

  like humans and living their lives [TS]

  because they're basically refugees and [TS]

  doctor refers to them as people alltime [TS]

  family room for children [TS]

  yes I also like the fact that they [TS]

  actually claim the redemption was [TS]

  important because that ending is so [TS]

  powerful because what Bonnie the fact [TS]

  that she uh when she figures it out all [TS]

  all when she says both boxes are empty [TS]

  just like the buttons don't do anything [TS]

  and then she achieves that moment is [TS]

  like a satori moment like I [TS]

  Zen thing of now that person's chief the [TS]

  new level of enlightenment and she's [TS]

  allowed to demonstrate it in that final [TS]

  scene weather now to Oscar to get [TS]

  wonderful yeah what I what I loved about [TS]

  about capacities speech there is that I [TS]

  think you know matt smith what I think [TS]

  made a good speech in one early episode [TS]

  and the writers I think henceforth sort [TS]

  of always wrote big giant speeches from [TS]

  because they realize he you know he was [TS]

  good at them and then it just became a [TS]

  thing to fill time and I got tired of [TS]

  him to be honest the weather brings back [TS]

  attend there's a boat or speeches too [TS]

  many but this but this one capacities [TS]

  actually speaking to someone and it's [TS]

  literally like 10 minutes of just him [TS]

  but because he's talking to someone [TS]

  specifically it just feels like you know [TS]

  you're you're locked in and I've ever [TS]

  you know I i have I hold this two-parter [TS]

  in high esteem because it's when Eric [TS]

  and I went to the UK for the first time [TS]

  and then washed in the UK and part 2 [TS]

  especially we watched it you know with a [TS]

  family around the TV as as all British [TS]

  families have to have done for [TS]

  generations now and to watch Doctor Who [TS]

  on a Saturday night and then have this [TS]

  episode be the one that we get to watch [TS]

  I thought ah boy this is just lucked out [TS]

  it was it was brilliant my luck to you [TS]

  watched in the original Klingon as it [TS]

  was intended to be seen [TS]

  yes in Powell I actually watched the [TS]

  power 25 frames you get that you get [TS]

  those a second Dreamz the yawns it's [TS]

  very different [TS]

  yeah it is alright anything more about [TS]

  this is about the minis icons or should [TS]

  we let bygones be anywhere episode 19 [TS]

  for some reason was no episode 9i don't [TS]

  understand this is a big black spot in [TS]

  the season and then no no [TS]

  so that's all right so sleep no more is [TS]

  next is we were now entering our non [TS]

  two-parter little pair here sleeping [TS]

  morbark geddes controversial market is [TS]

  good buddy of Steven Moffat they do [TS]

  Sherlock together so it's unlikely that [TS]

  he's going to be kicked out of writing [TS]

  for doctor who has been writing since [TS]

  season 1 but people over there are a lot [TS]

  of people who are allowed and don't like [TS]

  his episodes i liked sort of half of [TS]

  this episode's maybe and not like the [TS]

  other half sleep no more the this is the [TS]

  story about the same [TS]

  and men who come to life on that space [TS]

  station around Neptune and it's all the [TS]

  found footage and there's no opening [TS]

  credits and it's very unlikely doctor [TS]

  who episode in that sense I you know I [TS]

  did I i do this episode with smiles on [TS]

  the TV podcast and it was funny because [TS]

  i think both of us liked some aspects of [TS]

  it and not others and it was sort of [TS]

  like we started the episode was like [TS]

  that was kind of fun yeah that was kind [TS]

  of fun let's spend 15 minutes detailing [TS]

  all the things that were wrong with it [TS]

  and I feel like it in hindsight that's [TS]

  about right because style-wise i really [TS]

  like the style of this episode i think [TS]

  is so big and dark and weird and and yet [TS]

  there are things in it that it's like no [TS]

  no what are you doing the the whole well [TS]

  we sort of slept and the sleep stays in [TS]

  your eyes if you don't sleep and then it [TS]

  becomes alien sand men that was slick [TS]

  though it doesn't make any sense what I [TS]

  like doing entire shape of it and [TS]

  nothing in it was like everything that's [TS]

  not was insane and the the you know even [TS]

  like the the weird hologram was just so [TS]

  everything was dark and creepy and tired [TS]

  and had a weird ending and all of that I [TS]

  liked and yet there's some of the [TS]

  details [TS]

  no no no now I it feels like I mean [TS]

  market has had the idea for us but for [TS]

  some reason monsters being made out of [TS]

  the ice not using the morning for years [TS]

  but he but he couldn't get the clearance [TS]

  from the song for mr Sandman so this [TS]

  idea just SAT percolating for that long [TS]

  and then he finally got the clearance [TS]

  and by that time doctor who had moved on [TS]

  so it's a very restful t-day vez kind of [TS]

  idea around it just feels and and you [TS]

  know I thought well atleast episode 10 [TS]

  is going to be you know a single story [TS]

  too so won't feel that but then it [TS]

  episode 10 was essentially part 1 of the [TS]

  3 partner to end the season which just [TS]

  led this one too just feel so out of [TS]

  place just like last year robot of [TS]

  Sherwood felt just nothing like a Peter [TS]

  Capaldi episode stuck in you know early [TS]

  early on in this first season and this [TS]

  would just look like it just I know just [TS]

  like to say okay mark you get to make [TS]

  your episode moment [TS]

  again we'll put it on the fridge right [TS]

  there when you're done everyone could be [TS]

  happy and that's just what it felt like [TS]

  an ear I liked I liked the atmosphere [TS]

  like being so true yeah I know I like [TS]

  the direction but i just got our mass [TS]

  this alone [TS]

  well I guess I love some of my favorite [TS]

  my favorite uh one of my favorite David [TS]

  10 episodes is the is the the impossible [TS]

  planet satan pit and it's for similar [TS]

  reasons which is it's dark and weird and [TS]

  spooky and creepy and like the [TS]

  atmosphere i just love the atmosphere of [TS]

  those episodes and Gabriel Wolf's boys [TS]

  you will die and i would live right i [TS]

  love that and sleeping more has that and [TS]

  it's like works on that level and that's [TS]

  it i think it was almost like greatest [TS]

  wants to wants to have his own little [TS]

  blink moment you know don't blink don't [TS]

  ever blink and they show shots of you [TS]

  know various statues around the world [TS]

  they're gonna get you if you if you keep [TS]

  looking at them and that speech at the [TS]

  end you know who you've got something at [TS]

  the corner of you I never thought no I [TS]

  don't come on i do not have a monster [TS]

  forming in the corner of my eye you know [TS]

  I it was we went to was a crazy November [TS]

  because we went to Long Island Doctor [TS]

  Who convention where we watched this [TS]

  episode live on on on the Saturday night [TS]

  they played it to the whole auditorium [TS]

  and then two weeks later we're jakarta's [TS]

  for the plate heaven-sent and the the [TS]

  immediate reaction both during and after [TS]

  the episodes could not have been more [TS]

  different [TS]

  yeah wewe a radio free scar had to do a [TS]

  live review of sleep no more own right [TS]

  after like literally i'd say about [TS]

  seventy percent of the people just sort [TS]

  of like you know walked out as if they [TS]

  had just seen their football team lose a [TS]

  game just like a walk back just look at [TS]

  them with the with the flash casts and [TS]

  also just like with ready for Scarlett [TS]

  Verity being committed to reviewing [TS]

  every episode you had that moment of [TS]

  like well what do we say various media I [TS]

  I again I don't think Sleep No More is a [TS]

  complete failure because of because it's [TS]

  saying style is good i mean the style is [TS]

  not not part of the episode that is part [TS]

  of the the episode [TS]

  and the style is great it's just you [TS]

  know again when you get into the [TS]

  analysis of it [TS]

  oh you know that's when it falls apart [TS]

  it's actually like it's better to be [TS]

  viewed and being like but once your or [TS]

  if you're in a crowd of fans right you [TS]

  start thinking about it and it's just it [TS]

  does not withstand scrutiny [TS]

  I just as I feel like it is felt like an [TS]

  early draft not a complete thing like [TS]

  they hadn't gone back and tighten it up [TS]

  any more consistent which they did so [TS]

  well I mean you know we'll talk about [TS]

  this at the end with this season was a [TS]

  phenomenal season and in this episode [TS]

  was not so it stood out more [TS]

  sometimes I wonder about the politics of [TS]

  it like interpersonal relationships of [TS]

  you know you're Steven Moffat likes [TS]

  Russell Russell Davis free road almost [TS]

  everybody i think except Steven Moffat [TS]

  Steven Moffat apparently doesn't really [TS]

  do that and sometimes I wonder that you [TS]

  get these scripts that could probably be [TS]

  made better if the if and whether it's [TS]

  over work or it's just difference you [TS]

  get a you get the scripts just go [TS]

  through with women with perhaps I don't [TS]

  know the inside story here but it would [TS]

  not surprise me if market history got a [TS]

  really light touch on it a little bit [TS]

  like kill the moon the previous season [TS]

  where I felt like it's interesting but [TS]

  it could probably there are some very [TS]

  simple things that would have probably [TS]

  made a stronger story but they didn't [TS]

  happen maybe that's out of out of [TS]

  deference to Peter harness i don't i [TS]

  don't know but uh yeah yeah i mean i-i [TS]

  think it's a I think this episode is [TS]

  kind of a mess [TS]

  even though i like a lot of things about [TS]

  it the other thing that I like the most [TS]

  about it was in the the representation [TS]

  in it i like the casting and this has [TS]

  nothing to do with Mark Davis unless he [TS]

  wrote the characters as at most of the [TS]

  characters as female which maybe he did [TS]

  but i love the idea that there's an [TS]

  asian woman who's in charge yeah and we [TS]

  have our first openly transactor playing [TS]

  the the grunt which some people did have [TS]

  trouble with but they did not know that [TS]

  she was trans at the time that they cast [TS]

  her in that role so I don't have a [TS]

  problem with it at all my trouble was [TS]

  the casual sexual harassment that the [TS]

  that person was engaged in against the [TS]

  other crewmember but that's another [TS]

  thing that's not related to their [TS]

  general Josie I loved that was my [TS]

  favorite part of the whole story because [TS]

  it was completely taking that that tired [TS]

  old trope [TS]

  where there's you know the guy in that [TS]

  position and flipping it on its head [TS]

  I think that sometimes those problematic [TS]

  things to me are less problematic [TS]

  because they are you know we need to [TS]

  break them down before we can get rid of [TS]

  them all together so I like turning [TS]

  things that turn things around and and I [TS]

  don't know that it was intentional in [TS]

  the script but probably in the overall [TS]

  planning for the season there is a [TS]

  thread of strong women through the whole [TS]

  season which is really interesting out i [TS]

  think i think that has to be intentional [TS]

  yes because Steven Moffat yes Steven [TS]

  Moffat may not be on Twitter anywhere he [TS]

  still pays attention to to sort of you [TS]

  know what fandom as a whole is is saying [TS]

  and I think that I think that he [TS]

  definitely sort of listens to the [TS]

  feminist backlash against some of the [TS]

  stuff that people had seen and really [TS]

  worked on that with with the casting and [TS]

  gosh look at the end of the season it's [TS]

  not there right yeah it's a also shout [TS]

  out to Neptune Neptune doesn't get a lot [TS]

  of love inside thigh here it is [TS]

  yep tune ya around Neptune okay that [TS]

  brings us to the either an angry person [TS]

  who was upset that i referred to heaven [TS]

  sent his part 1 of the two-part season [TS]

  finale like it's a three-part season [TS]

  finale and that's part like well I don't [TS]

  know [TS]

  utopia sort of leads into the finale and [TS]

  face the Raven sort of leads into the [TS]

  two-part finale quite the same but [TS]

  anyway face the Raven it seems like it's [TS]

  a standalone episode rapidly become [TS]

  something very different [TS]

  this is the episode now I managed to see [TS]

  where Erica's emotional progression is [TS]

  now because I've been listening to [TS]

  podcast which she is she is a because [TS]

  i'm a little behind on my very listing [TS]

  she's very emotionally compromised let's [TS]

  say to pull in some Star Trek references [TS]

  about that the death of Clara which [TS]

  happens to face the Raven and it does [TS]

  happen and face the Raven Clara dies and [TS]

  face the Raven we may find out more [TS]

  about her death in the inhale that which [TS]

  we do but uh spoilers but well we're all [TS]

  spoilers here but face the Raven so this [TS]

  is there's a street Trixie we find from [TS]

  from the delightful flatline from last [TS]

  year [TS]

  ritzy calls he's got a tattoo that is [TS]

  counting down which is a nice again a [TS]

  nice little creepy idea that's thrown in [TS]

  there there's a little street that was [TS]

  obviously available for [TS]

  the set of harry potter maybe I don't [TS]

  even know it's really an alley where [TS]

  aliens buzz it was and there's a bird [TS]

  and there's a chronolock and and [TS]

  shielder is there or me is there and in [TS]

  the end [TS]

  Clara is being very very clever in a [TS]

  napoleon III have to honestly say is [TS]

  exactly where I thought the doctor and [TS]

  rose were going in season two and then [TS]

  they didn't go there she just got [TS]

  accidentally sucked into a vortex to [TS]

  another parallel universe but here it is [TS]

  that like you're dangerous you'll become [TS]

  too much like the doctor and start to [TS]

  think like him but as the doctor says [TS]

  he's he's a less what does he say he [TS]

  said something like he's less fragile [TS]

  then she is well he knows what I mean [TS]

  you know there's that the underlying [TS]

  thing that he can't die MIT but the ante [TS]

  plot part but also that he knows when he [TS]

  dies sort of mean that gets rewritten [TS]

  and we get around around take more [TS]

  damage than she can but she's thing i [TS]

  like to hear it and and hurts her and it [TS]

  in the end it kills her in a in an [TS]

  episode that I found very affecting um I [TS]

  was shocked by it I I podcast with with [TS]

  chips others right after this was over [TS]

  and the first five minutes of it was [TS]

  literally me going cheap what did I just [TS]

  see what just happened because i had no [TS]

  idea that they were gonna kill Clara and [TS]

  I was shocked by it and and I felt like [TS]

  they did it right in that we spent time [TS]

  understanding the ramifications of Clara [TS]

  dying he didn't you know when you kill [TS]

  somebody but you're not really killing [TS]

  them you do it you gotta toss it off you [TS]

  don't invest the time and they invested [TS]

  the time to the point where as a [TS]

  educated television viewer like oh no [TS]

  they're taking their taking this [TS]

  seriously this must be real [TS]

  they were playing that game which I [TS]

  appreciated while it while it you know [TS]

  it shocked me and it upset me the [TS]

  problem i had with this episode I'm [TS]

  interested in what all you think the [TS]

  problem i had with this episode as I [TS]

  felt like the the the read the fine [TS]

  print trick that kills clara was not [TS]

  really set up I felt like it was kind of [TS]

  a cheat that the audience was being [TS]

  cheated in order to not out think Clara [TS]

  up [TS]

  about this and that bothered me that was [TS]

  like no no we didn't say that you [TS]

  couldn't transfer it and still not die [TS]

  her home and it's all kind of like a [TS]

  ripoff to me didn't change how affected [TS]

  i was by the ending but I did feel a [TS]

  little bit like they were trying to pull [TS]

  a fast one on me in the middle [TS]

  yes and yes yeah yep that's you read the [TS]

  fine print of your death contract you [TS]

  know the the begin the bits and pieces [TS]

  of it are very effective but yeah the [TS]

  key to that plot the key to that twist [TS]

  just did not i don't think they sold it [TS]

  enough like now it isn't didn't I think [TS]

  we're now so much time on her and trying [TS]

  to understand that and not enough time [TS]

  on trying to actually explain and set [TS]

  that up [TS]

  yeah you know I sort of like it just all [TS]

  of a sudden oh you gotta remind Davis [TS]

  this PV at the end the episode so I [TS]

  didn't get that the full weight of her [TS]

  dying i was sort of annoyed at that but [TS]

  I kind of got it retcon by episodes by [TS]

  yeah let me enjoy it better well but the [TS]

  other thing was the point that's got me [TS]

  but we'll get to 12 but I actually cry [TS]

  everytime i watch tell Ben only twice [TS]

  when she gets pissed off at him [TS]

  why would you do that why would you do [TS]

  that for spending all the time in the in [TS]

  the confession dial that got me you know [TS]

  i was dead and gone just like off she [TS]

  that just hit me in the heart in a way [TS]

  that this episode didn't unfortunately [TS]

  out to watch it again now that another [TS]

  speed about that plot point America how [TS]

  are you feeling now [TS]

  hey you know if it was any other [TS]

  character other than clara who died this [TS]

  way I would have punched the air and [TS]

  been thrilled because I i often i often [TS]

  complain about the fact that that that [TS]

  characters on Doctor Who like you know [TS]

  it's such a risky proposition to travel [TS]

  with the doctor I feel like a lot more [TS]

  characters ought to die and and I like [TS]

  it when a TV show is bold enough to just [TS]

  kill somebody off in a not big not [TS]

  schmaltzy sort of away like this is just [TS]

  boom she died [TS]

  however the fact that it is Clara my [TS]

  possibly favorite companion ever who I'd [TS]

  apparently developed more of an [TS]

  emotional attachment to the night even [TS]

  thought I had kind of had my hopes up [TS]

  that this would be the first new series [TS]

  companion who got to basically leave for [TS]

  an exciting and good reason why [TS]

  under her own agency we've been sort of [TS]

  written us into a corner at this point [TS]

  nobody can possibly want to leave the [TS]

  doctor because who would want to leave [TS]

  that kind of a life and that bugs me [TS]

  I like the idea that that characters [TS]

  could just go and that's one of the [TS]

  things i think was better in the old [TS]

  series even though sometimes it was [TS]

  really stupid but here we we have a sort [TS]

  of a great ending except that I wanted [TS]

  her to go on to be awesome and keep in [TS]

  mind this is before help help and has [TS]

  come along so I I knew that there was a [TS]

  good possibility that they were going to [TS]

  kill off Clara or make her leave before [TS]

  the series was over so about halfway [TS]

  through this episode I could suddenly [TS]

  see where I was going and it became the [TS]

  most awful experience of washing talker [TS]

  who I think I've ever had [TS]

  I was just tense and I knew where it was [TS]

  heading and yep that's where it ended up [TS]

  and I was just I was just shaking with [TS]

  rage I was so upset but you know I i [TS]

  always get mad at other people when they [TS]

  write a doctor who plot in their head [TS]

  and it doesn't come up on the screen and [TS]

  they get upset with the show Yeah Yeah [TS]

  right here you know here i have sort of [TS]

  unwittingly done that so i'm not i'm not [TS]

  actually mad at Steven Moffat for [TS]

  killing off killing off car I feel like [TS]

  it was a wise decision from a [TS]

  storytelling standpoint but emotionally [TS]

  I just it wasn't ready for it [TS]

  I i don't know that i will be ready to [TS]

  watch face the Raven again anytime soon [TS]

  maybe not ever [TS]

  I still haven't listened and listened to [TS]

  a whole bunch of Doctor Who podcast and [TS]

  i have not listened to a single one [TS]

  about face the Raven including Verity I [TS]

  beg absconded from that episode like I [TS]

  was just like nope we're not going to be [TS]

  honest I can't talk about it so I [TS]

  haven't listened to anybody talk about [TS]

  it sorry I didn't listen to you and chip [TS]

  Jason were created later on is awesome [TS]

  that's fine it doesn't know what did I [TS]

  just do it it's like love it it was such [TS]

  a should I went on this is the most [TS]

  unspoiled I've been a doctor who season [TS]

  ever and I i love that about it but I [TS]

  was shocked when I got to this moment I [TS]

  although so again some of this light is [TS]

  going said is the nuance that comes in [TS]

  an episode 12 where we get to see Clara [TS]

  again but I on one level it's like [TS]

  everybody dies right and and Clara at [TS]

  the end [TS]

  of hell-bent says to a shoulder [TS]

  essentially stop worrying about it [TS]

  essentially stop worrying about it [TS]

  all of us have an ending I know when [TS]

  mine is but I don't need to go there yet [TS]

  right i mean that is I think that's kind [TS]

  of beautiful in in a way to to have her [TS]

  her worldview be that but um but yeah it [TS]

  is i just i would've felt better about [TS]

  it if I hadn't felt like the scripted [TS]

  and cheat a little bit in order i felt [TS]

  like the script cheated to misdirect us [TS]

  but it wasn't playing fair [TS]

  and so when we got there I felt like I [TS]

  got cheated instead of not realizing [TS]

  with it wasn't just that I didn't [TS]

  realize what the rules were along with [TS]

  Clara because I'm Clara smart enough to [TS]

  as a character to not make that mistake [TS]

  i don't know i just felt like the [TS]

  execution wasn't there where where I [TS]

  wanted to feel like it was a fair you [TS]

  know a fair cop essentially we're like [TS]

  yep you got me right and I didn't feel [TS]

  that the enemies in the Raven that's [TS]

  what i wanted to just for Claire to be [TS]

  like oh yeah all right [TS]

  the reason I think it's it bothers us to [TS]

  is that and I'm speaking for everyone [TS]

  here you go on I'll shut me down is that [TS]

  the episode could have been devised [TS]

  slightly differently and we would have [TS]

  been satisfied it didn't have to have a [TS]

  broken mechanism because it was very [TS]

  clever before and after and it set up at [TS]

  the end the key that the key being [TS]

  sucked in his wrists to the teleport [TS]

  like all of the the ways to suck him [TS]

  into a mystery were great but they could [TS]

  have done the Clara misjudging something [TS]

  differently like being to taking more [TS]

  risk and knowing it and thinking she [TS]

  could have gotten out of it and they [TS]

  didn't give her that ability they made [TS]

  her do something where she didn't know [TS]

  it's like the Agatha Christie yes you [TS]

  can solve this mystery including things [TS]

  you never knew that's how you solve this [TS]

  mystery [TS]

  yeah I will somebody in the chatroom [TS]

  mtpa just talk about can't you just have [TS]

  the Companions choose to leave i think [TS]

  that's one of the challenges with the [TS]

  modern series by spending more count [TS]

  companions and making them seem like [TS]

  more reasonable characters you do often [TS]

  go down a path where the idea is this is [TS]

  such a wonderful life why would I ever [TS]

  give it up and so with the exception of [TS]

  Martha they have another whoo-hoo left [TS]

  because the doctor was a complete jerk [TS]

  to her [TS]

  yeah exactly exactly right is not an [TS]

  ideal [TS]

  holes parchur but at least it was [TS]

  different but the rest of them there has [TS]

  been something horrible but has happened [TS]

  because that's the only way you [TS]

  definitely leave the doctor and I get it [TS]

  from the sense of amping up like oh it's [TS]

  the time of my life why would I ever [TS]

  leave [TS]

  I think of sarah jane saying you know [TS]

  just just go you don't go with him [TS]

  this is a special part of your life and [TS]

  at some point it's going to end but i do [TS]

  think that it's difficult because you [TS]

  know you portray this is this amazing [TS]

  magical thing which it is but you know [TS]

  you're not going to have them the end [TS]

  none of the actors stay on the show [TS]

  longer than three years right so they [TS]

  have to leave at some point and you end [TS]

  up having to create these but you know [TS]

  difficult circumstances for them to [TS]

  depart because you've portrayed them as [TS]

  somebody who would never willingly [TS]

  choose to leave with the problem is the [TS]

  Clara actually got to that point last [TS]

  season where it makes sense for her to [TS]

  quit and she didn't so they got there [TS]

  and then it blew past it [TS]

  yeah it made sense for Amy and Rory too [TS]

  because they just sort of left at the [TS]

  end of the god complex and you could [TS]

  have been a natural and for them to ya [TS]

  but they always seem to have to go back [TS]

  for one more [TS]

  which I'm okay with look for McLaren I [TS]

  like the power of three I i like the [TS]

  idea of Amy and Rory kind of like being [TS]

  part time companions and that's fine but [TS]

  you know I would have been happy if they [TS]

  had said we're having another baby and [TS]

  we're going to retire from the [TS]

  time-travel doctor instead of it being [TS]

  well angels or even know baby like I I [TS]

  yeah I don't be a baby is another that's [TS]

  just another gimmick and I i love the [TS]

  idea is over to my children Erica people [TS]

  do have babies and settle down it is a [TS]

  thing that a lot of people do it seems [TS]

  like a good excuse our doctor pound sand [TS]

  look our last baby getting kind of [TS]

  messed up because you so not this one [TS]

  but see that's just it's an excuse i [TS]

  like the idea that people would just [TS]

  leave to choose to to to to do something [TS]

  else that they could still be traveling [TS]

  with a doctor in theory you know but [TS]

  they just decide not you and then just [TS]

  because somebody has chosen not to [TS]

  travel with a doctor i think i think a [TS]

  lot of times viewers and that the [TS]

  showrunners are thinking about it in [TS]

  that ok well if we have somebody who has [TS]

  chosen to leave then well you know what [TS]

  do we do the doctors gonna want to go [TS]

  back and visit him [TS]

  yeah but that can happen off-screen [TS]

  exactly to create months artificial New [TS]

  York boundary that the doctor can't get [TS]

  in for some reasons exact but just so we [TS]

  can't see them [TS]

  alright heaven-sent heaven-sent were [TS]

  into the two-parter now duh it's peter [TS]

  capaldi one-man show live on stage one [TS]

  night only [TS]

  well many men like this is so this is [TS]

  the doctor in his what we've discovered [TS]

  is the confession dial he is being [TS]

  essentially tortured and interrogated [TS]

  and it's just him and a figure in a [TS]

  cloak and at the very end of pep talk [TS]

  from his sort of head Clara and I and I [TS]

  don't know what I I you know I i loved [TS]

  it because it is just a full-on Peter [TS]

  Capaldi and I knew what was happening [TS]

  going to happen actually ok [TS]

  one of things is very clever about this [TS]

  episode is I felt like I knew what was [TS]

  going to happen from the beginning which [TS]

  is that it was a loop and he done it [TS]

  before and we get to the point where he [TS]

  realizes it's the loop is and he's done [TS]

  it before i go haha i figured it out and [TS]

  now we're at the end and then the [TS]

  episode goes on for another 15 minutes [TS]

  so that part was kind of genius where [TS]

  it's like and then he's going to dig a [TS]

  little bit further into the wall of [TS]

  harder than diamond and extend for that [TS]

  hundreds of thousands and millions and [TS]

  billions of years in order to get to the [TS]

  end which was just a mind-blowing kind [TS]

  of ending to an episode that I thought [TS]

  was just fantastic because it's um it's [TS]

  all Peter Capaldi and he's great and and [TS]

  as a gimmick episode goes and this is [TS]

  kind of a gimmick Episode what if we did [TS]

  an episode with just the doctor in it [TS]

  it's a I thought it was kind of [TS]

  fantastic one of what does everybody [TS]

  else think well I loved it i didn't even [TS]

  try to think about the puzzle I just [TS]

  enjoyed watching it in the moment and [TS]

  and i would have loved it going back to [TS]

  it and see it two and three times and [TS]

  four times and I don't usually watch [TS]

  these four times within like three days [TS]

  that's this burrowed into my brain like [TS]

  one of those bugs in Wrath of Khan [TS]

  and it wouldn't like oh it's just I felt [TS]

  like I was in a loop myself and i [TS]

  watched it and was just swearing and [TS]

  staggered and i watched it again and [TS]

  again i think i've watched it five times [TS]

  and I'm only forced will start you for [TS]

  watching it more and then I read the [TS]

  script when they posted the scripts and [TS]

  scripts have some of the the missing [TS]

  back story about why the words on the [TS]

  wall you know obviously change that [TS]

  drinks shooting or editing some things [TS]

  that didn't make entire sense actually [TS]

  suddenly make this feeling that last [TS]

  little gap of like a part of the puzzle [TS]

  was actually thought about but I don't [TS]

  know if this is my favorite doctor who [TS]

  but this is the one that most appeals to [TS]

  the way my brain works and i just had [TS]

  that same feeling of like watching at [TS]

  the fifth time I still got more out of [TS]

  it i think it's an incredible expression [TS]

  of trouble expression and i miss comes [TS]

  out in episode 12 but I'll say it here [TS]

  first is that i was delighted that it [TS]

  wasn't about romance so is delighted [TS]

  that was about [TS]

  yes doctors integrity and his feelings [TS]

  for her that were his feeling of of his [TS]

  duty of care as he puts it but that the [TS]

  plotline wasn't like I'm so I mean the [TS]

  Rose number ten on ten romance was real [TS]

  and good i like that and had its own [TS]

  integrity but this was about him being [TS]

  the manager is the thing that is right [TS]

  which is always so hard everyone else [TS]

  walks away everyone else runs away and [TS]

  he has that moment of crisis of [TS]

  confidence in which he the head cleric [TS]

  comes and talks to him and tell him to [TS]

  get off his ass and then he's like okay [TS]

  well I was 7,000 years let's try for [TS]

  12,000 on so delighted i think this [TS]

  well it'll still don't think didn't few [TS]

  years to come and it probably looked at [TS]

  probably one of if not the best talk to [TS]

  episode ever made everyone has been [TS]

  calling a one-man show i called a [TS]

  five-person show that being Peter [TS]

  Capaldi Steven Moffat Rachel talalay who [TS]

  directed it Murray Murray gold whose [TS]

  music I think has never been better and [TS]

  will always want who edited it including [TS]

  that three-and-a-half minute montage at [TS]

  the very end of his beautiful i [TS]

  mentioned the i mentioned that Chicago [TS]

  TARDIS screening that i watch out i had [TS]

  seen it i think twice that they like i [TS]

  was at risk as of overseeing this [TS]

  episode I Majesty it twice before they [TS]

  actually even show it on the saturday [TS]

  night at this convention and I thought [TS]

  I'll just sit in the back check Twitter [TS]

  and stuff is this thing that happens [TS]

  probably gonna be sick of it and like I [TS]

  think I cried two or three times during [TS]

  the course of that like at the end of [TS]

  that big montage when the doctor you [TS]

  know we finally get to the whole wall is [TS]

  this person I think that's one hell of a [TS]

  burden [TS]

  everybody just a plot a nicer oh and [TS]

  then when the you know the cameras Wells [TS]

  up and it's Gallifreyan there and I just [TS]

  a huge amount of applause I mean I [TS]

  remember seeing day the doctor in the [TS]

  theater and thinking that was a magical [TS]

  experience in this almost talk that it [TS]

  was just watching that episode with a [TS]

  crowd who just equally adored it and and [TS]

  wasn't watching Sleep No More just made [TS]

  it for a magic line and when we've been [TS]

  lucky because on bringing free scarves [TS]

  0507 i think it is a five-member I'm my [TS]

  co-host Warren lives in Vancouver where [TS]

  Rachel talent lives and so we actually [TS]

  have sat down with her for about an hour [TS]

  and a half and and talked about her [TS]

  directing these two episodes and just [TS]

  hearing how it was made and the German [TS]

  Expressionism influences that went into [TS]

  this thing I mean it's a masterpiece [TS]

  I adored this this episode I i mean i [TS]

  was so emotionally fragile after seeing [TS]

  face the Raven I i had i had considered [TS]

  just not watching Doctor Who for a while [TS]

  because emotionally I just didn't think [TS]

  I was ready for it [TS]

  however I'm not a doctor who podcast so [TS]

  that would have been kind of to [TS]

  cultivate out so I was like all right I [TS]

  will just suck it up and i will see [TS]

  where it goes and and hopefully it [TS]

  doesn't you know kill me again and I [TS]

  think this was for me personally the [TS]

  most perfect type of episode to come [TS]

  after an experience like that because [TS]

  you know it's it's not really [TS]

  dwelling on Clara's deaths in a way that [TS]

  feels like it's you know that pouring [TS]

  salt on the wound it is it is it [TS]

  supposed to be about the doctor kind of [TS]

  dealing with Claire's death but in this [TS]

  story he never gets to because he's [TS]

  always just reliving the same point he [TS]

  is having to deal with you know in front [TS]

  of our eyes having to deal with the [TS]

  freshness of her death over and over and [TS]

  over again but i didn't have to do it [TS]

  that way like I actually got to watch [TS]

  this from an outsider's point of view so [TS]

  it gave me time to sort of bring [TS]

  and.and deal with her death emotionally [TS]

  even in a way that the doctor wasn't [TS]

  able to and it it was just it was so [TS]

  clean and pristine and just the the [TS]

  everything about it felt different [TS]

  enough from Doctor Who that I almost [TS]

  felt like I was sort of taking a little [TS]

  bit of a break from Doctor Who and I [TS]

  don't think this episode works with like [TS]

  a Stephen said I don't think this [TS]

  episode works with a different team [TS]

  I think you needed all of those pieces i [TS]

  almost never noticed the music and [TS]

  Doctor Who and yet I thought it was [TS]

  amazing here the first time the doctor [TS]

  sees the ancient picture of Clara we get [TS]

  Clara's theme played very lightly but [TS]

  with this weird effect on it that almost [TS]

  makes it sound kind of wobbly in [TS]

  backwards or underwater or something it [TS]

  was just they were there were so many [TS]

  little touches like that and and I think [TS]

  we've had some really wonderful actors [TS]

  play the doctor over the years but i do [TS]

  think that that Peter Capaldi is the [TS]

  only person who could pull this off in [TS]

  the way that it that it actually worked [TS]

  it was it was just so fantastic and I [TS]

  mean you know when I even did get little [TS]

  glimpses of Clara throughout the episode [TS]

  III didn't realize that actually was [TS]

  Clara standing there when you get their [TS]

  shots of her back [TS]

  I assumed it was a mannequin or standing [TS]

  but no this does really Jenna Coleman [TS]

  was a standard I thought it was [TS]

  obviously a standard and i found that [TS]

  Thun I was like I don't know what I [TS]

  don't know whether he was it actually [TS]

  hurt because I felt like ya la said this [TS]

  on radio and scar oh so true [TS]

  yeah dad made originally shot some shots [TS]

  with its stand and talalay just didn't [TS]

  like the look at the shot so they got [TS]

  Jenna Coleman to do it it's which is [TS]

  which is weird because it is her but it [TS]

  doesn't look like her which candidates [TS]

  ready for using a different blaster [TS]

  sometimes it's not so we're so cynical [TS]

  about TV production that we think we [TS]

  think I mean the way the episode is [TS]

  structured you are meant to think that [TS]

  of course she's not actually in it [TS]

  because she left the show writing and [TS]

  that is the beauty of it is because [TS]

  you'd show her right [TS]

  show her if it was her and so must not [TS]

  be here so when you see her you you have [TS]

  that oh she is here [TS]

  yeah at the right moment where before [TS]

  when she's just sort of facing the wall [TS]

  you don't have that kind of emotional [TS]

  attachment because it could be anybody [TS]

  you know it's a representation of Clara [TS]

  and [TS]

  until you see your face and hear our [TS]

  voice it's not that's what the moment [TS]

  with Clara appears and maybe an [TS]

  international it sits in serving the [TS]

  abstract is a representation of just [TS]

  companion [TS]

  yes he always has a companion and and [TS]

  yet if if she had shown her face any [TS]

  earlier it would have distracted from [TS]

  the rest of the episode even if she [TS]

  didn't say anything even if the the [TS]

  scenes were exactly the same otherwise [TS]

  just the assumption that it's not really [TS]

  her huh is what sets that apart if if [TS]

  you had seen her face that would spoil [TS]

  the effect i agree i think it's a nice [TS]

  nice think I you know I look at the I [TS]

  always thought that they were ridiculous [TS]

  but the audience appreciation figures [TS]

  for every episode that the BBC doesn't [TS]

  this guy a kind of a a a poor score [TS]

  I mean it's a good score but it's the [TS]

  worst of the whole season and I I think [TS]

  that's hilarious because everybody I've [TS]

  talked to who watch doctor who looks at [TS]

  this episode and says it's basically an [TS]

  instant classic this is going to be an [TS]

  episode we're going to be talking about [TS]

  for years to come as a classic Doctor [TS]

  Who episode so I don't know what the [TS]

  people on the way I polar thinking but [TS]

  it is i think i think it's a classic too [TS]

  i think you know I i think the the [TS]

  people who would have responded [TS]

  favorably were too busy crying at the [TS]

  room where the monsters are no monsters [TS]

  and that's just a veil there's a month [TS]

  stories here there is a monster it's [TS]

  strange but I i had a I felt like this [TS]

  actually solve the listen problem where [TS]

  we never understood who was writing on [TS]

  the chalkboard and listen and then it's [TS]

  like oh it is braces my it's like ah [TS]

  yeah I mean talk about the amazing [TS]

  things that are in this episode we get [TS]

  inside the doctors head like actually [TS]

  inside the doctors head and his little [TS]

  head TARDIS that he's got any speaking [TS]

  singers out and and you know he likes to [TS]

  have an audience as we mentioned earlier [TS]

  and all we get to see all of that to [TS]

  which is kind of amazing where he's [TS]

  talking to essentially he needs a [TS]

  companion he needs an audience and if he [TS]

  doesn't have a companion he will create [TS]

  a companion to talk to but he has to [TS]

  have one that's i love the heat that he [TS]

  just flat out says that you know that [TS]

  he's trying to show off it actually uses [TS]

  the phrase showing off and it and you're [TS]

  right that that's just what i was going [TS]

  to say is the idea that we're getting to [TS]

  see inside the doctors head is amazing [TS]

  and fascinating i mean back [TS]

  the days in the wilderness years when [TS]

  there was no Doctor Who on and there [TS]

  were all these these novels The Doctor [TS]

  Who new adventures one of the edicts [TS]

  about those books was that the writers [TS]

  were never allowed to write what the [TS]

  doctor was thinking you only were able [TS]

  to see we know the doctor from the [TS]

  outside that was the way it had to be so [TS]

  I think the idea that we're seeing [TS]

  inside the doctors had been getting some [TS]

  of his thoughts is even more [TS]

  revolutionary than it would be on any [TS]

  other show okay i want to point out the [TS]

  the dolly zoom only because the bit at [TS]

  the end with the doctors saying they're [TS]

  he says it in and that this is that when [TS]

  others he says a I now's the time I [TS]

  remember each for every time this is [TS]

  when I remember and they do that pull [TS]

  out where the zoom thing i just read [TS]

  this long article i think from Joe [TS]

  rosenstiel appointed people to it about [TS]

  the the history of the dollies and when [TS]

  you get that the background gets further [TS]

  away or closer together because they're [TS]

  pulling the zoom while they moved the [TS]

  dolly backwards and use it [TS]

  you're assuming in while you're pulling [TS]

  back jaws is a good example yeah yeah [TS]

  Goodfellas has a really slow one yeah [TS]

  and I was like exactly yeah and I was [TS]

  like oh ok that's that great shot and it [TS]

  was so perfect because that telescoping [TS]

  of time it worked [TS]

  yeah very effectively that the thing [TS]

  that we don't we don't go into the [TS]

  minutiae of the episode but the thing I [TS]

  kept going back to was that they [TS]

  constructed a puzzle with these things [TS]

  that didn't make sense but felt right [TS]

  that they didn't make sense usually just [TS]

  feel like flaws but like why is shovel [TS]

  into places [TS]

  Wendy Barry I didn't get the Octagon [TS]

  stone i cannot get through the Octagon [TS]

  stone was the thing buried in the thing [TS]

  that looks like a grave until they read [TS]

  the script and well I think that when I [TS]

  think I like second viewing I think I [TS]

  know that's what that is [TS]

  I just wasn't me this but it's clear [TS]

  when you see it but it's a but i think [TS]

  there are little bits and pieces of the [TS]

  fact that there's a some kind of looping [TS]

  problem with his clothing in the fire [TS]

  but that's okay because within the [TS]

  context makes sense it was easily be [TS]

  closed for the next for the next Doctor [TS]

  yes we don't know who prime that loop [TS]

  and he says all the rooms regenerate but [TS]

  i think it's okay that the rules are [TS]

  slightly you know talk to the numbers [TS]

  skulls doesn't exactly match as many as [TS]

  would be there and so first and the [TS]

  first time loop he just does the last [TS]

  half of the episode naked [TS]

  fortunately we didn't see that episode [TS]

  so I was thinking or in a robe [TS]

  where I hell-bent is the last episode [TS]

  soda in a classic you know Steven Moffat [TS]

  has this thing about like two partners [TS]

  but don't feel like two partners and [TS]

  this is that this is this is a doctor [TS]

  returns to Gallifrey and it's all kind [TS]

  of a scheme to save Clara by pulling her [TS]

  out of time but he also we also deal [TS]

  with this is in many ways a sequel to [TS]

  the end of time and a little bit the [TS]

  50th anniversary episode as well we get [TS]

  a new Rassilon who is who is exiled as [TS]

  well as the rest of the High Council [TS]

  because the whole question of like those [TS]

  awful people who did these awful things [TS]

  during the time low time war and how do [TS]

  you deal with them and the answer is [TS]

  that the doctor basically sends them [TS]

  away like it's not not bad and he tries [TS]

  to save Clara by extracting her out of [TS]

  time they the end and going down into [TS]

  the depths of Gallifrey in order to kind [TS]

  of avoid capture and they ultimately end [TS]

  up at the end of that the restaurant at [TS]

  the end of the universe with a shoulder [TS]

  and uh and uh in in a delightful [TS]

  surprise although maybe not surprising [TS]

  from mr. everybody lives [TS]

  Steven Moffat Clara and the shoulder [TS]

  steal a TARDIS from Gallifrey themselves [TS]

  essentially or Clara steals it with the [TS]

  doctor and then Clara and shoulder [TS]

  runoff in the with its broken chameleon [TS]

  circuit to have their own adventures in [TS]

  presently Big Finish audios to come and [TS]

  I'm and we get a happy ending other than [TS]

  the fact that if we get the reverse of [TS]

  what happened with Donna which is in [TS]

  this case the doctor huh that it tries [TS]

  to do a Donna kind of thing to Clara and [TS]

  she says no not allowed [TS]

  you're not going to do that and they do [TS]

  a kind of a packed on a 50-50 chance of [TS]

  having their memory wiped and so the [TS]

  doctor doesn't remember the details of [TS]

  Clara at the end and that sort of the [TS]

  little tragedy that is wrapped around [TS]

  this episode so you know the universe is [TS]

  never in peril by the way in this [TS]

  episode other than I guess if the doctor [TS]

  blew it up in order to save Clara but he [TS]

  would have blown it up and it doesn't [TS]

  feel as operatic and [TS]

  some ways is the other episodes that so [TS]

  many times that the universe has been [TS]

  blown i know it's all of reality is [TS]

  falling apart I was peeved that they [TS]

  didn't show it initially I was like well [TS]

  this seems like something missing and [TS]

  there's like no it's actually a former [TS]

  restraint that they don't need to show [TS]

  you something just as many about the [TS]

  characters it's that the ads about the [TS]

  characters it it took me a couple [TS]

  viewings to get over the fact that it [TS]

  wasn't heaven-sent because i was still [TS]

  basking in heaven yet when I saw this [TS]

  and I didn't realize that ok this is [TS]

  completely different than that that [TS]

  episode I need to give it full do and i [TS]

  loved it for what it was i I you know I [TS]

  like how crazy weird it is i love how [TS]

  capacity is basically silent for the [TS]

  first 15 20 minutes of the episode the [TS]

  counterpoint to heaven sent it is [TS]

  individually finally sort of just shows [TS]

  up and you know it says get off my [TS]

  planet and everything and now that you [TS]

  know I think there but he probably [TS]

  talked about most this episode already [TS]

  while talking about other episodes [TS]

  earlier in the season but I just love [TS]

  how you know everyone's giving sort of [TS]

  it an agency at this point out that even [TS]

  in retrospect everyone thought that the [TS]

  Donna Noble finale was was tragic [TS]

  analysis almost kind of aggravated [TS]

  because she was never given a choice and [TS]

  here Clara has a choice he takes control [TS]

  he takes agency with her life as his [TS]

  maisie williams as does um you know [TS]

  basically the whole thing from right out [TS]

  with run by superb female characters by [TS]

  the end even though it started out the [TS]

  story is male like the the general who [TS]

  regenerates back in time that you know [TS]

  we were talking about earlier about how [TS]

  Steven Moffat likes the leash loose [TS]

  threads and I think this is the biggest [TS]

  loose thread that he's leaving basically [TS]

  paving the way for a future show where [TS]

  because i don't think it's going to be [TS]

  cast another doctor during his time on [TS]

  the show to basically say everyone it is [TS]

  cool if we have a female doctor and if [TS]

  we if the next person who follows me [TS]

  doesn't have essentially created a [TS]

  female doctor and clara who will travel [TS]

  around the TARDIS on her own so you know [TS]

  it kind of both kind of paved the way [TS]

  and cushions the blow if there is no [TS]

  female doctor [TS]

  post Peter capacity and I think it's [TS]

  just a marvelous way to just a wrap all [TS]

  that up [TS]

  yeah aight aight i liked it in my head I [TS]

  still at especially the first time I [TS]

  watched it in my heart was was not quite [TS]

  over the the Clara thing and and I do [TS]

  appreciate the fact that she does get to [TS]

  go off and have more adventures and i [TS]

  love the fact that she has agency and [TS]

  gets to make the choice about you know [TS]

  not having the doctor just erase her [TS]

  memory without her being able to say no [TS]

  to that but we always joke on Verity [TS]

  linen and ever always saying that they [TS]

  may think maybe Steven Moffat has when [TS]

  he took over the show he made a [TS]

  checklist of all of the things that [TS]

  Russell T Davis did that he don't want [TS]

  to say he needed to fix them but maybe [TS]

  things that he thought were cool but was [TS]

  like I would do it differently this way [TS]

  because they're an awful lot of things [TS]

  that have we've had some similarities [TS]

  where he has had switched it up and [TS]

  changed it and this is definitely a big [TS]

  one [TS]

  a lot of people had real trouble with [TS]

  with Donna has you know but lack of [TS]

  consent at what was what was done to her [TS]

  and here we have a similar thing and I i [TS]

  love the way the episode is structured [TS]

  in that we don't know at the beginning [TS]

  what happened like we we think that it's [TS]

  Clara that has forgotten the doctor [TS]

  right and I I totally bought into that [TS]

  all the way until we get to the end and [TS]

  then we find out know what's actually [TS]

  the doctor that has forgotten about her [TS]

  and I love that he has he still has his [TS]

  memories of the things that they did [TS]

  together in the places that they went so [TS]

  it so it's not like he's missing a huge [TS]

  chunk of time it's just all of the [TS]

  pieces that are so emotionally resonant [TS]

  and all of the pieces that are really [TS]

  really related to her [TS]

  that's what's gone and i think that's [TS]

  that's just wow I got some really some [TS]

  real talk about that cuz i went through [TS]

  cancer treatment in 1998 and I had [TS]

  chemotherapy for six months and I I [TS]

  can't say that the writers and see them [TS]

  often anyone else talk to people with [TS]

  amnesia or gone through chemo but i have [TS]

  I couldn't tell you how much i identify [TS]

  with that I didn't lose my memory but [TS]

  after having chemo I missing pages and [TS]

  it's this feeling of I've described it [TS]

  almost exactly the way he did in that [TS]

  episode [TS]

  of your walking down the street you pull [TS]

  over and you know there was something [TS]

  there and there's a hole in the ground [TS]

  and you walk around it you feel it with [TS]

  your tongue like an empty socket where a [TS]

  tooth was and you can't for the life of [TS]

  you remember what that was and I've met [TS]

  people from before chemo and I remember [TS]

  a lot of people were a lot of things [TS]

  from my childhood but its pages torn out [TS]

  of the book and there's people i know [TS]

  from college who are sometimes upset [TS]

  that I don't remember them and I just [TS]

  don't have those memories are remember [TS]

  the memory of them and not themselves so [TS]

  I think they got that kind of residence [TS]

  and was very personal for me but but [TS]

  absolutely perfect [TS]

  yeah I i it's it's it's a soft tragedy [TS]

  it's a tragedy and yet he knows the lay [TS]

  this is the lesson we learned early in [TS]

  the season and set up with me right [TS]

  which is she has the books and so she [TS]

  knows that she's met Clara before but [TS]

  she doesn't remember meeting Claire [TS]

  before and that's what the doctors [TS]

  memories like now is he knows that these [TS]

  things happened but doesn't feel them [TS]

  anymore and it's a tragedy but as [TS]

  tragedies go you know there are worse [TS]

  ones to have and and it is a great [TS]

  reveal when Clara goes back in the in [TS]

  the back of the diner and it's the [TS]

  original tardis console and me is [TS]

  waiting for her and then they take off [TS]

  and leave the doctor behind with the [TS]

  TARDIS it's a I got some questions about [TS]

  the timeline of like he says that it did [TS]

  it he can't find it but he obviously [TS]

  seems to have just arrived because [TS]

  they've got his TARDIS and it's a I'm a [TS]

  little confused about some of the [TS]

  details but I don't care it's fine it is [TS]

  it's poetic and beautiful and it allows [TS]

  me to have headcanon involving Amy and [TS]

  Rory and river meeting that Smith inside [TS]

  a diner that is actually Clara's TARDIS [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  oh my god right I'm sure is [TS]

  intentionally beautiful right and and [TS]

  it's a wonder what a great way to end we [TS]

  get we get got kind of Gallifrey [TS]

  resolved in a way we get Clara and me as [TS]

  this alternate set of of doctors or [TS]

  doctor and companion we we get to see a [TS]

  TARDIS getting stolen from Gallifrey and [TS]

  having its chameleon circuit broken we [TS]

  get the beautiful redress Abby [TS]

  recreation of the original TARDIS with [TS]

  lots of details from William Hartnell [TS]

  and Patrick Troughton just this just so [TS]

  much it you know Steven Moffat shows in [TS]

  this episode i think that there is [TS]

  probably nobody on this earth who has [TS]

  spent more time thinking about doctor [TS]

  who said Stephen laughs that's ok and [TS]

  andrew davis dammit he's gonna use all [TS]

  of it we can also we can now have a [TS]

  Clara and a shoulder go off for me go [TS]

  off and meet up with the doctor's [TS]

  daughter where they can pick up all of [TS]

  the doctors and other doctors mother get [TS]

  the and maybe I can never I'm sorry my [TS]

  brain is preggers Ramona no come on home [TS]

  run out for Ramona stupid for a little [TS]

  bit on companion Ramona but if you like [TS]

  we have all these in the river song of [TS]

  course we have all these that time [TS]

  ladies and Missy they could all have a [TS]

  very interesting a trip together charges [TS]

  big enough [TS]

  yup locker room and yeah I I just again [TS]

  I I i liked the shape of this where it [TS]

  was on one level huge because it's the [TS]

  end of the universe and Gallifrey all of [TS]

  that and another another level [TS]

  I really appreciated how this this [TS]

  series ended with a quieter in a way and [TS]

  and more limited in scope and more about [TS]

  personal costs and people and and the [TS]

  doctors loss of Clara and trying to get [TS]

  her back and I like that I like that it [TS]

  was not not every I'm not every season [TS]

  needs to end with an existential threat [TS]

  to universe for God's sake [TS]

  yeah it was it was intimate if there [TS]

  were a bunch of explosions and flying [TS]

  Daleks and stuff it was intimate they're [TS]

  sitting in armchairs at the end he's not [TS]

  yeah I love that one of my favorite [TS]

  lines you know as he rises [TS]

  you're sitting inside and energy bubble [TS]

  me how you [TS]

  hi sustaining and she says brilliantly [TS]

  that's not the douglas adams line [TS]

  graphically yeah yeah I like that was [TS]

  started as a Western that there will be [TS]

  a so he tries alive it and is it looks [TS]

  like Doc Holliday or somebody's we start [TS]

  to put takes office nicer code you put [TS]

  someone that's more severe [TS]

  there's a there's a standard sheriff's [TS]

  care come sure is coming in our outlaw [TS]

  you know that kind of course I think the [TS]

  scene with him eating the soup and all [TS]

  those of townspeople in the dry lands [TS]

  just staring at them yeah I don't know [TS]

  where it came from it was fantastic [TS]

  it was aight i like how I'm you know [TS]

  they made the return of Gallifrey seem [TS]

  like a big thing but then it didn't [TS]

  become a big thing and I think had you [TS]

  had the sort of you know because they [TS]

  planted the seeds of finding the Yellow [TS]

  Freight at the end of the day of the [TS]

  doctor and he could have been like [TS]

  always huge epic we're gonna go back to [TS]

  the time when everything but no the only [TS]

  reason the doctor wanted to find [TS]

  Gallifrey again was basically so we [TS]

  could save Clara yeah and that was it [TS]

  and then you sort of left him hard to [TS]

  their own devices again which I quite [TS]

  likes we found it and then put it away [TS]

  again so we don't necessarily need to [TS]

  see it again right but it sits there to [TS]

  be dealt with but it's not and we didn't [TS]

  get into Time Lord politics all the [TS]

  boring stuff right that is not [TS]

  interesting about Gallifrey it's sort of [TS]

  like it's a Gallifrey is interesting [TS]

  because of what it means about the [TS]

  doctor and who you know what the in this [TS]

  case how they they say player and steal [TS]

  a TARDIS but it's not the details of [TS]

  Time Lord society beyond that I like the [TS]

  people we saw Gallifrey where the the [TS]

  poor people who live in the dryland yeah [TS]

  millions which is where he grew up out [TS]

  in that barn you know that's i love that [TS]

  that that that's what we see and also [TS]

  hit he has to drop his weapon and he has [TS]

  a spoon [TS]

  yeah that's possible robot of Sherwood [TS]

  call back you'll ever get [TS]

  I just like it's a place where people i [TS]

  mean i love the come up into Rassilon it [TS]

  that was just great and just the thing [TS]

  where there's nobody important either no [TS]

  witnesses like you noticed on the ship [TS]

  showing up and it just all felt [TS]

  legitimate i think it was interesting to [TS]

  recontextualize him as you know the [TS]

  former ward [TS]

  after that you can have this seems like [TS]

  he's a he's a war hero he its loyalty to [TS]

  loyalty to the war doctor is absolutely [TS]

  happening here and he saved the planet [TS]

  oh you can save them all he did in [TS]

  wrestling is cowering at the end of time [TS]

  yeah that's cool surprising 50th [TS]

  anniversary special residences that idea [TS]

  i did not expect to get the season [TS]

  alright uh before we before we wrap it [TS]

  up we should talk about at least a [TS]

  little bit there was a whole TV podcast [TS]

  about two husbands of River Song [TS]

  Erica you don't like River Song I i [TS]

  finalized I like to river song better [TS]

  the longer you know fit the longer we [TS]

  went on I didn't like her at the [TS]

  beginning a lector later but then we got [TS]

  here I I think rivers it's cool that [TS]

  there is a river character she just [TS]

  she's not she's not for me and I never I [TS]

  never liked the the sillier doctor who [TS]

  episodes almost ever so so the Christmas [TS]

  ones generally aren't up my alley either [TS]

  so I I in theory kind of enjoyed this [TS]

  like it was alright to watch I I i [TS]

  always think that Steven Moffat writes [TS]

  his it his couples as if they are in a [TS]

  1940's ya squawkin man brightly but it [TS]

  which i love i love the you know the [TS]

  less screw of the screwball comedies [TS]

  from from back in those days and yet i [TS]

  don't really love it in Doctor Who so [TS]

  well I thought that this was way better [TS]

  chemistry between river in the doctor [TS]

  then i ever got from from matt smith or [TS]

  david tennant it just it was alright i [TS]

  love i loved it i I loved it it it it [TS]

  felt exactly the right level of silly [TS]

  and fun and I thought like a good use of [TS]

  river and a great interplay I I don't [TS]

  you know Alex Kingston Peter Capaldi the [TS]

  the age difference between Alex Kingston [TS]

  and matt smith was very interesting but [TS]

  Alex instant Peter probably i don't know [TS]

  if it's that they're closer in age I [TS]

  don't know if it's just Peter Capaldi [TS]

  and alex kingston have a connection but [TS]

  i just love them together and i love [TS]

  that she didn't that he had the upper [TS]

  hand on her because so much river song [TS]

  story is that she has the upper hand on [TS]

  him [TS]

  and.and I love that uh that moment where [TS]

  she realizes that it is him and amazing [TS]

  and he cares about right [TS]

  it's not just that that's him but it's [TS]

  it's that that he wouldn't be standing [TS]

  here next to me because he doesn't care [TS]

  the sunset is I'm going to love you back [TS]

  and it's like he wouldn't be [TS]

  oh right because it's so it's that [TS]

  simultaneous like this is him [TS]

  it's been him all along and he does care [TS]

  is that what he said your phone hello [TS]

  school me perfectly [TS]

  yeah yes that is the unhinged smile that [TS]

  I think is that i would say this is the [TS]

  through line from the doctor who cross [TS]

  all the doctors it is they don't do this [TS]

  but I think it's a through line is that [TS]

  the doctor can look completely unhinged [TS]

  and Tom Baker had him stay in and you [TS]

  can see p christopher eccleston there [TS]

  are times that he would just be saying [TS]

  something and his face would light up [TS]

  you like oh my that person is off the [TS]

  like practically off the rocker and i [TS]

  think peter capaldi has a really [TS]

  devilish smile that came out a few times [TS]

  this episode that just hit that right on [TS]

  the head [TS]

  I liked it but I mean anyway after the [TS]

  heaviness of series 9 they kind of [TS]

  needed and they do they needed sort of a [TS]

  lighter screwball kind of thing was [TS]

  going to go over at 515 as opposed to [TS]

  eight or 830 as most of Syria and went [TS]

  out but knowing all that and then [TS]

  honestly for the first time ever in my [TS]

  life I think Star Wars and doctor who [TS]

  actually intersected and competed for my [TS]

  infections and so I was I was so in star [TS]

  wars the force awakens bowed having seen [TS]

  I think twice maybe three times before [TS]

  Christmas I can remember now [TS]

  and so I was gonna like high so much [TS]

  talk to who now and so I kind of like [TS]

  kind of when I feel like I didn't give [TS]

  it its its its full attention [TS]

  the first time I saw something i watched [TS]

  three or four times and unlike the more [TS]

  each time but I you know Star Wars [TS]

  that's all star star wars on the [TS]

  Christmas this year for me I think it's [TS]

  I think timing really was against it in [TS]

  in two ways because I having seen star [TS]

  wars with Stephen every time and being [TS]

  so wrapped up in it I felt that same way [TS]

  about it but also I think the fact that [TS]

  the series ended so close to Christmas [TS]

  Joe didn't give us that same amount of [TS]

  breathing room that were used to have [TS]

  angry so I was still not only just in [TS]

  Star Wars mode but I was still kind of [TS]

  in that emotional place that series 9 [TS]

  had left me and I didn't have enough [TS]

  time to chew it over and let it all [TS]

  digest quite right [TS]

  like I like you normally do so yeah SEI [TS]

  I spent an hour with you [TS]

  christmas night talking about how I ever [TS]

  loved it so i don't i don't have to go [TS]

  on and on that you know go listen to the [TS]

  TV episode III will say as much as I [TS]

  enjoyed star wars and I really did enjoy [TS]

  Star Wars I've only seen that once I've [TS]

  already seen this about three times just [TS]

  because so much fun it's fun and [TS]

  pointing at the end though I think a lot [TS]

  of people that I've yeah we talked about [TS]

  the last 15-20 minutes when they're in [TS]

  the restaurant and everything and having [TS]

  those conversations and that's when it [TS]

  really gets good [TS]

  oh yeah that that's the capper for it [TS]

  yeah I like I I mean we weave anybody [TS]

  who's been talking about Doctor Who for [TS]

  the last few years knows that the the [TS]

  Christmas special has a specific job to [TS]

  do need to be broad people are gonna [TS]

  watch that episode in in Britain that [TS]

  are not going to watch doctor who [TS]

  otherwise they're gonna watch that one [TS]

  so you want to be a rope you wanted to [TS]

  be fun you want to have action you want [TS]

  to not be too heavy and i think that i [TS]

  think it does all of those things [TS]

  delightfully well and then I think their [TS]

  payoffs for people who are who have been [TS]

  watching the show all along and and then [TS]

  it ends it there's wackiness and then it [TS]

  ends with something that's actually kind [TS]

  of touching and beautiful and and and so [TS]

  yeah it's all it's all good the only [TS]

  problem I have with it is that by [TS]

  decisively saying that she hasn't seen [TS]

  Peter Capaldi's doctor before it makes [TS]

  it very difficult for us to calculate [TS]

  out how to get more things even if its [TS]

  audio stories later with that with alex [TS]

  kingston and Peter Capaldi who are so [TS]

  great together but hey that's fine [TS]

  they got that they got the whatever it [TS]

  is they have 24 years 24 years of not [TS]

  have adventures [TS]

  also he said doesn't believe don't [TS]

  believe all myths basically so their [TS]

  stories about us and so she may be [TS]

  misstating precisely the timeline in its [TS]

  true the forest episode i also really is [TS]

  all the Christmas episode so we have [TS]

  giant crashing spaceships or flying [TS]

  sharks i guess or other options too but [TS]

  that well the flying shark episode all [TS]

  so had a crashing space oh my gosh [TS]

  exactly should we just never craft [TS]

  stated there was a murderous christmas [TS]

  tree episode but that had a giant [TS]

  spaceship that you didn't shot out of [TS]

  the sky your cotton this is better than [TS]

  I thought this is better than raccoon [TS]

  merry christmas everybody can get dr. [TS]

  the winner of the Wardrobe it wasn't a [TS]

  crushing spaceship is a crashing plane [TS]

  yeah they're really good with different [TS]

  so uh where were basically the end so i [TS]

  wanted i would ask the difficult [TS]

  questions now which is where do you [TS]

  place this season and in terms of [TS]

  success or failure and compared to [TS]

  previous seasons I'm kind of curious for [TS]

  a final kind of verdict on that front [TS]

  Stephen what do you wear what would you [TS]

  rank series 9 I think it's undoubtedly [TS]

  the best series since it came back for [TS]

  me it mile it might even be the best [TS]

  season of Top true ever huh [TS]

  because this is like 12 episode you [TS]

  think about is 26 episodes worth of in [TS]

  the old actually yeah 26 worth in the [TS]

  olden days i'm not too sure that the [TS]

  doctor who's ever had a solid [TS]

  front-to-back season in its history [TS]

  since maybe last year which i thought [TS]

  was equally as good to life the app I [TS]

  think we're in a golden age and i watch [TS]

  the show for over 30 years saying that [TS]

  so yeah well hi grace [TS]

  Erica what's your series 9 overall [TS]

  verdict yeah i'm right there with [TS]

  Stephen I mean you did despite the [TS]

  emotional issues I have with with the [TS]

  end of Clara I can still look I can [TS]

  still remove myself from the equation [TS]

  and and just look at it a little bit [TS]

  more objectively and I do think that it [TS]

  is for me easily easily the best so that [TS]

  we've had since the since i came back i [TS]

  love series 8 but I think for me it's [TS]

  it's it's a much easier called the thing [TS]

  that I like this one better i still [TS]

  think overall season 16 might be my [TS]

  favorite because I just love the key to [TS]

  time ya bits and pieces but if we're [TS]

  going like strictly quality i still have [TS]

  to say that this one is better because [TS]

  as much as I love series 16 season 16 [TS]

  it's um it's a little janky in place [TS]

  it's open down yeah David verdict [TS]

  I'm with them uh [TS]

  I i think the Capaldi running in general [TS]

  has been more consistent than anything [TS]

  in the new series again front-to-back [TS]

  yeah and and this season i mean you know [TS]

  i had quibbles with things here and [TS]

  there but just for overall entertainment [TS]

  value and overall not wanting to nitpick [TS]

  them to death and and then just enjoying [TS]

  so many of the little tiny bits of [TS]

  episodes even the ones that weren't [TS]

  perfect it's just it's been really [TS]

  really good this year [TS]

  Glenn I gonna be boring and generally [TS]

  agree i think i watched about fifty [TS]

  percent of the of the original who [TS]

  series and i watched everything that's [TS]

  come out since the eccleston reboot and [TS]

  I love some episodes better and there's [TS]

  some parts of series and arcs better but [TS]

  i thought this was fantastic and I have [TS]

  my doubts during the season so that was [TS]

  good it was very solid it was it was a [TS]

  very consistent season and watchable and [TS]

  then the last three episodes destroyed [TS]

  because I mean I've never watched any [TS]

  episode as much as having been or [TS]

  haven't sent yet I don't think about [TS]

  five times and i'll probably watch it [TS]

  anymore so I feel like they did an [TS]

  excellent job overall and I I wonder the [TS]

  only thing I would say is i'm curious [TS]

  how people who are not doctor who fans [TS]

  coming into the season saw it [TS]

  there's no good way to know that but I [TS]

  thought for somebody like putting all of [TS]

  us who have back history with it [TS]

  I certainly appreciate it greatly for [TS]

  other reasons thanks even talking about [TS]

  them on his page [TS]

  well and and things that were that they [TS]

  were kind of questionable early on or [TS]

  that you went i don't know where this is [TS]

  going or I don't know if they're going [TS]

  to pick this up when they did close the [TS]

  circuit at the end it all tied together [TS]

  carefully and it wasn't it wasn't like [TS]

  the story arcs where it's like building [TS]

  to some giant big climactic you know [TS]

  university-wide conflagration and saving [TS]

  the University of have said this on [TS]

  other shows about other things i'm tired [TS]

  of everything is exploding and we have [TS]

  to save the universe this really did it [TS]

  it took this intimate story by the end [TS]

  and it was about the characters that we [TS]

  were worried about it had nothing to do [TS]

  with the whole universe of the whole [TS]

  planet or whatever Jason where do you [TS]

  place it thanks for asking [TS]

  I was just going to say so comedians I [TS]

  love but uh I I ok I'm going to be a [TS]

  little bit of a dissenter I think that [TS]

  series 8 was last year was better [TS]

  overall in terms of consistency and then [TS]

  had a disappointing ending whereas I [TS]

  think this season was although fairly [TS]

  consistent and good i think i felt not [TS]

  as delighted by it as i did last season [TS]

  but it had such a great ending I i [TS]

  really love the last two episodes and [TS]

  really the last three episodes I felt [TS]

  like this just as a seasoned it it [TS]

  wrapped up in a more appealing way so [TS]

  but you know if I had to score i would [TS]

  break [TS]

  Peter Capaldi's first year higher than [TS]

  this slightly but i think it's close and [TS]

  then the only other modern series that i [TS]

  would throw in there is this is the [TS]

  first david tennant series to that i [TS]

  have i have a great fondness for its [TS]

  hard [TS]

  we're at the point with modern Doctor [TS]

  Who where it's almost hard to call back [TS]

  that far because the show has changed [TS]

  and the way it looks old [TS]

  russell t davies Sarah doctor who is [TS]

  starting to feel like old doctor who in [TS]

  a way that it wasn't at the time but [TS]

  it's very different now than it was then [TS]

  so it's kind of hard to compare them but [TS]

  that has some of my favorite season [TS]

  series two of the new doctor who has [TS]

  some of my very favorite episodes in it [TS]

  so you're here Herr is there but which [TS]

  is not that good and the Indian flavor [TS]

  which not good but discipline themselves [TS]

  into more than good [TS]

  and yet the height i didn't i think that [TS]

  i was high Capaldi Capaldi with with the [TS]

  exception of heaven sent [TS]

  i would say the Capaldi era is [TS]

  interesting because I feel like it's way [TS]

  more consistent than doctor has been a [TS]

  long time but the heights don't for [TS]

  whatever reason don't feel quite as high [TS]

  with the exception of having set is that [TS]

  maybe because we don't have the lowest [TS]

  to compare them to it's possible it is [TS]

  possible [TS]

  they're taking their medication the [TS]

  season and the episodes all evened out [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah but I'm not gonna I'm not [TS]

  gonna complain about i think it's been a [TS]

  good season I think it's been very [TS]

  consistent [TS]

  like I said I think consistency in the [TS]

  Capaldi era even even the episodes that [TS]

  are kind of clunkers I can usually find [TS]

  something that I like about them like [TS]

  sleep no more which i think is very [TS]

  stylish even though i think it makes no [TS]

  sense or kill the moon last year which I [TS]

  really didn't like and yet I think about [TS]

  it and I think it's very interesting and [TS]

  I just think it failed but i think it's [TS]

  interesting in how it failed so that's [TS]

  not a bad thing to be at that level of [TS]

  consistency so that you know that's my [TS]

  that's my feeling about it but it's good [TS]

  I you know I see stories we this work [TS]

  we're back to where we started with this [TS]

  episode which is talking about Windows [TS]

  doctor who come back again and so we [TS]

  don't know is it [TS]

  are we not going to do doctor-who for a [TS]

  year or is there going to be a short run [TS]

  of episodes in the fall file followed by [TS]

  more episodes in the spring we just [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  and then we also don't know of course [TS]

  we're entering the third full series of [TS]

  a doctor in Peter capacity and that's [TS]

  frightening because generally that's the [TS]

  last series for a doctor is the third in [TS]

  the modern series that's been the kind [TS]

  of the rule [TS]

  David Tennant and matt smith both did [TS]

  three full seasons david tennant also [TS]

  did some specials so I because i have to [TS]

  say and this always happens but i gotta [TS]

  say i don't want him to go [TS]

  I want him I want Peter Capaldi to stick [TS]

  around for a little while because I feel [TS]

  like he has so much to offer the series [TS]

  and i would much rather i know it makes [TS]

  sense to change the showrunner have [TS]

  steven moffat finally kind of hang it up [TS]

  and change the doctor at the same time [TS]

  that's what happened with with Russell T [TS]

  davis at the same time I kind of don't [TS]

  want to see it happen i kinda wanna [TS]

  definitely go back into classic Doctor [TS]

  Who I kind of want that last Tom Baker [TS]

  season with Peter Capaldi where the show [TS]

  changes but the doctor at least is kind [TS]

  of the same for a year because i want [TS]

  more Peter Capaldi three years is not [TS]

  enough for me i hope i hope we don't [TS]

  have hope we're not two-thirds through [TS]

  his era because I'm not ready to say [TS]

  goodbye to pick ability he is great [TS]

  yes same here i will willingly take a [TS]

  year off from Doctor Who's it appears [TS]

  we're doing now in order to extend Peter [TS]

  Capaldi's air-crane Agnes disaster you [TS]

  know even if they cancel the show for [TS]

  five years and Peter Capaldi is still [TS]

  technically the current doctor even [TS]

  though he regenerates at the end of that [TS]

  last episode as long as we can have him [TS]

  is the current doctor even when he's not [TS]

  even on air I can take that as a win [TS]

  I feel like at this point that the [TS]

  Christmas special having been on every [TS]

  year since 2005 that even if they decide [TS]

  not to Doctor Who for a while they're [TS]

  still going to do an episode for your [TS]

  Christmas yeah how could they not at [TS]

  this point how could they not [TS]

  but yeah i agree with you completely [TS]

  let's keep your pelvic he's a treasure [TS]

  he's good he not only is he a fan and we [TS]

  know that he's a fan but he is you eat [TS]

  you could not I think perhaps because he [TS]

  is a fan to get an actor of his caliber [TS]

  yeah mhm I this chance is not going to [TS]

  come around again this is a very special [TS]

  moment let's keep this guy keep them i [TS]

  know i'm i remember hearing i mean the [TS]

  the Matt Smith era was you know hit and [TS]

  miss i think you in regards to scripting [TS]

  and I think it's mostly because they [TS]

  didn't really have an executive producer [TS]

  like to sort of keep the reins on things [TS]

  and they got a guy called Brian [TS]

  mentioned who's been in that position [TS]

  for the past two years and it's really [TS]

  sort of like firms everything up i [TS]

  remember hearing scuttlebutt in the in [TS]

  you know leading into Peter Cappelli [TS]

  that this season is gonna be much better [TS]

  because you know no offense to Matt [TS]

  Smith but he's just a young actor we [TS]

  can't treat Peter Capaldi the same way [TS]

  that we treated matt smith and so I I [TS]

  had an inkling early on that I think [TS]

  they were really like oh my god we got [TS]

  Peter Capaldi we have two impressive [TS]

  haha [TS]

  and so I think the quality Walker he has [TS]

  an Oscar everybody like brushes the [TS]

  crumbs off their shirts and sucks in [TS]

  their gut instincts yes sir [TS]

  really you know yeah he's not even that [TS]

  it's an Oscar for acting it's for [TS]

  directing he knows what he's doing he [TS]

  knows what is yelling no [TS]

  yeah well onward somewhere it is really [TS]

  i was there i was thinking about also [TS]

  how it disconcerting it is that the the [TS]

  Christmas special doesn't end with the [TS]

  doctor will return in the middle of this [TS]

  episode it's not even named well this [TS]

  has been a lot of fun i hope we can [TS]

  reconvene before too long to talk about [TS]

  the next season of doctor but who knows [TS]

  when that will be I would like to thank [TS]

  my guests for talking about [TS]

  this season though it's good that we got [TS]

  to talk about it now that has come and [TS]

  gone and now we're in the wilderness [TS]

  that many wilderness of between seasons [TS]

  of doctor who with not even knowing when [TS]

  it will be coming back and Laura thank [TS]

  you for being here thank you i'm just [TS]

  gonna like flip and come back to the [TS]

  restaurant in a few years [TS]

  sure sure it'll still be nighttime we'll [TS]

  we'll have dinner nights are long on [TS]

  this planet had to go and Fleischmann [TS]

  thank you for being here you you supply [TS]

  the the best of all the headcanon I [TS]

  apparently think about this maybe a [TS]

  little too much but you know as I look [TS]

  at the sky tonight by the positions of [TS]

  stars i think we've been on this podcast [TS]

  for over two billion years quite [TS]

  possible and i remember it all [TS]

  Erica and signed Thank You of course [TS]

  people can listen to you talk about [TS]

  Doctor Who every week more or less on [TS]

  Verity yes indeed yeah if if you're a [TS]

  doctor who fan out there and and [TS]

  jonesing for more doctor who stuff and [TS]

  then come and rewatch series 1 and [TS]

  season one with us this year I set and [TS]

  and lazy doctor who know and well i was [TS]

  going to say now sin and eric and [TS]

  Stephen together host lazy doctor who on [TS]

  the uncomfortable network where you [TS]

  totally took control and owned New [TS]

  Year's Eve life that was my shine that [TS]

  was that was beautiful [TS]

  that was a beautiful thing they're [TS]

  watching if you haven't listened to lazy [TS]

  doctor who Eric and Stephen are watching [TS]

  every episode of the original classic [TS]

  Doctor Who from the very beginning and [TS]

  and podcasting about whenever because [TS]

  it's casual like that that's why it's [TS]

  called please doctor who is writing the [TS]

  name people don't complain it's in the [TS]

  name Steven Japan ski you are one of the [TS]

  hosts of Radio Free Skaro everybody's [TS]

  the most like the most famous doctor who [TS]

  podcast i keep I keep thinking and so [TS]

  what I have to say to you is may the [TS]

  force be with you [TS]

  I with all this talk about Star Trek and [TS]

  Star Trek Star Wars day long and prosper [TS]

  this star wars and and series 9 has [TS]

  whetted my appetite has whetted my [TS]

  appetite and it saddens me that I have [TS]

  to wait the entire year until the next [TS]

  star wars movie and doctor who christmas [TS]

  special which will air within a week of [TS]

  each other in [TS]

  late December life in 2016 is not we'll [TS]

  get a new way to get a new star wars [TS]

  movie before we get a new episode of [TS]

  doctor who had will get a wash up and [TS]

  we'll get a new star wars holiday [TS]

  special about that i will not go to the [TS]

  second level with you go and Doctor Who [TS]

  life day special i would watch that in a [TS]

  heartbeat depending we may even get the [TS]

  new star trek series before a oh my god [TS]

  now that I think about it the lobby [TS]

  summer oh my well thanks everybody for [TS]

  listening just a reminder to Youkilis [TS]

  disparity and and listen to erykah and a [TS]

  an amazing cast of people talking about [TS]

  Doctor Who Radio Free Skaro Stephen and [TS]

  his two pals on that one is great when [TS]

  lazy doctor who of course and the TV [TS]

  podcast has all of our episode by [TS]

  episode things where it's me and various [TS]

  guests including only in all these [TS]

  people except Stephen who he's always [TS]

  already scarce exactly when I fight I [TS]

  talked enough about Doctor Who exactly [TS]

  so there's a lot of doctor who is what [TS]

  we're saying it there you want to listen [TS]

  to more pockets but doctor who but [TS]

  that's the end of this one so thanks to [TS]

  everyone out there for listening to this [TS]

  episode of income people will see you [TS]

  next time [TS]

  [Music] [TS]