The Incomparable

10: It`s Clobberin` Time!


  the incomparable podcast episode 10 [TS]

  November 2010 [TS]

  well so we're back on the uncomfortable [TS]

  podcast and I convene intercession this [TS]

  meeting of the comic book club who come [TS]

  to the club member say I i if you're [TS]

  wondering who we are [TS]

  I'm Jason snow and the other members of [TS]

  this comic book club are jason reitman [TS]

  hello hey thanks for having me back and [TS]

  it's good to have you here in this in [TS]

  this strange place where we're recording [TS]

  this which used to be her office and [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser who and you with this [TS]

  was never your office now and you've [TS]

  never even worked on this floor know so [TS]

  so there I was gentrified out of the [TS]

  office so we can have a podcast was [TS]

  moving on up [TS]

  yeah to a deal exit apartment in the sky [TS]

  that's another podcast anyway the [TS]

  jeffersons podcast coming soon so today [TS]

  what we thought we would talk about and [TS]

  this was a plot hatched in the last [TS]

  comic book club meeting was the [TS]

  Fantastic Four and all its forms the [TS]

  Fantastic Four were the original marvel [TS]

  comic the in the Marvel Universe even [TS]

  though everybody thinks of spider-man I [TS]

  think this as the the beginning of the [TS]

  Marvel Universe it's not true [TS]

  the Fantastic Four came first and they [TS]

  have been a stalwart part of what Marvel [TS]

  has done over the last however many [TS]

  decades it is what 40 or 50 years now 50 [TS]

  years [TS]

  yes sixties wasn't 623 yeah yeah so it's [TS]

  coming up 50 actually that'll be [TS]

  interesting but I've never been you know [TS]

  top-of-mind i think in in the culture [TS]

  either of comic book readers or of the [TS]

  general pop culture that they have been [TS]

  a couple fantastic for movies and there [TS]

  was the Fantastic Four and made serious [TS]

  which would maybe we will talk about a [TS]

  little bit always been hurt several and [TS]

  ready to our animated series [TS]

  yes that's true actually I'm thinking of [TS]

  the one from from original sixties early [TS]

  seventies that one was actually my first [TS]

  introduction of the Fantastic Four [TS]

  yeah so based on the kirby art so [TS]

  they've been around but but they've [TS]

  never been a huge huge deal and it's [TS]

  kind of interesting that they are they [TS]

  the Fantastic Four is iconic and yet not [TS]

  as well known as others it's the source [TS]

  for a lot of stuff i think we can write [TS]

  incredibles is based largely on the [TS]

  Fantastic Four and yet largely no [TS]

  ordinary family into ordinary family [TS]

  with its interesting thing they've never [TS]

  been that sort of commercial success but [TS]

  as far as icons go [TS]

  they are sort of like the quintessential [TS]

  superhero group that everything else is [TS]

  based on right and they've got the kind [TS]

  of family dynamic going on because it's [TS]

  a friend and why do wonderful family [TS]

  dynamics is why they didn't catch on as [TS]

  much because when you think about Marvel [TS]

  was always kind of found it as an [TS]

  alternative to DC where Marvel's in the [TS]

  real world and they had aggressively [TS]

  positioned a lot of their their books to [TS]

  appeal to young single and/or [TS]

  countercultural readers and then to have [TS]

  this family unit where it was evident to [TS]

  all to any reader that all four people [TS]

  in that unit value the family and would [TS]

  preserve that that may not have [TS]

  resonated with a fourteen-year-old [TS]

  reader the same way that you know we get [TS]

  charged leave your zeal does it [TS]

  certainly didn't with me growing up you [TS]

  know reading the x-men and all of the [TS]

  cool comics Fantastic Four was so lame [TS]

  and dumb and silly and but yeah we heard [TS]

  smoking his pipe right but now actually [TS]

  that I'm older and I just went back and [TS]

  reread some of them and I have a family [TS]

  I appreciate that family dynamic and [TS]

  story and first now I don't think the [TS]

  Fantastic Four is lame [TS]

  yeah I i started reading Fantastic Four [TS]

  during John Burns run after he left the [TS]

  ax men and what I what the reason I [TS]

  liked it is because it was you know if [TS]

  I've mentioned before in this podcast [TS]

  that I love the Micronauts and it was a [TS]

  sci-fi comic i loved nova which was a [TS]

  seventies Marvel invention that was ace [TS]

  us and again [TS]

  marvel's green lantern basically but a [TS]

  sci-fi comic and the thing I loved about [TS]

  the burn Fantastic Four was that it is [TS]

  that was a sci-fi that what that was we [TS]

  build spaceships and have crazy science [TS]

  and go to the negative zone and i love [TS]

  that that was what i liked about that's [TS]

  what i really like about somewhat [TS]

  fantastic four is they give you these [TS]

  great explanations for example Reed [TS]

  Richards oh you know every cell in your [TS]

  body has been converted to bacterial [TS]

  stack you no longer need to eat breathe [TS]

  sleep right now basically this [TS]

  collection of scientific anomalies in [TS]

  your brain can stretch itself in any [TS]

  direction before we continue along those [TS]

  lines I just need to point out that yes [TS]

  for those following at home we did go [TS]

  nearly four minutes and 30 seconds [TS]

  before Jason mentioned the Micronauts [TS]

  it's good i think the over-under was [TS]

  spotted it [TS]

  always choose the under when it comes to [TS]

  the Micronauts gonna have to have the [TS]

  all microns parties and Don Harris [TS]

  realized it was into a sci-fi thing I [TS]

  always loved the sci-fi comics and there [TS]

  were that many of the mountain and AFF [TS]

  sort of took that role of dishes [TS]

  especially in the 30 run like to do [TS]

  today you get that too on Marvel and DC [TS]

  they have you can be cosmic superheroes [TS]

  and actually I'm Kirkman with invincible [TS]

  is doing the story arc right now the [TS]

  hilton ride war which is a cosmic war [TS]

  kind of story again always love that [TS]

  stuff that's why I like Nova so you know [TS]

  it thats that's where the eff kind of [TS]

  came in before we get too far off here [TS]

  we do actually have a relatively modern [TS]

  relatively self-contained Fantastic Four [TS]

  related book that we wanted to talk [TS]

  about that we all read which is they [TS]

  should do that which will start with [TS]

  that as a jumping-off point that gives [TS]

  everybody out there something that they [TS]

  can read two other than just saying read [TS]

  all the fantastic four that were [TS]

  published and watch those terrible [TS]

  movies and watch rather be a robot and [TS]

  come back in like six years so and then [TS]

  we'll talk [TS]

  uh which is unstable molecules which I [TS]

  hadn't even heard of before it was [TS]

  mentioned in the last podcast or after [TS]

  the last podcast was over maybe write it [TS]

  unstable molecules came out a few years [TS]

  back when Marvel was still in bankruptcy [TS]

  and Bill Jameis had taken over as Marvel [TS]

  and joe quesada just come on as [TS]

  editor-in-chief and it was sort of a [TS]

  time when they were doing all these kind [TS]

  of experimental weird off-the-wall kind [TS]

  of stories it was a four-issue [TS]

  miniseries was written by tooth 2003 [TS]

  yeah the drawn by a guy davis and [TS]

  written by a guy named term who actually [TS]

  is big in the indie comics world he did [TS]

  the golems mighty swing which is a [TS]

  graphic novel he might think most famous [TS]

  for James Stern yes and now teaches at [TS]

  the cartooning school in vermont i [TS]

  believe this is available as a trade [TS]

  paperback is and yes that i read it all [TS]

  right it was easy pickup on amazon for [TS]

  like three dollars [TS]

  yeah is a four-issue series which is [TS]

  always appropriate for this and that the [TS]

  sort of shifting viewpoints of the [TS]

  characters across the four before issues [TS]

  but what what's fascinating about it is [TS]

  that it's not really about the Fantastic [TS]

  Four and yet it is it is about comics [TS]

  and it's about of life in [TS]

  in a America in the late fifties it's [TS]

  got almost a madman kind of feel to it [TS]

  and this is the first season I've [TS]

  watched mad men and so watching that [TS]

  series in conjunction with reading [TS]

  unstable molecules you get the same [TS]

  sense of claustrophobic emotional [TS]

  repressive pneus oh yes you and an issue [TS]

  two sous trauma who is the model for 46 [TS]

  storm obviously is she's basically Betty [TS]

  Draper yeah she's current just crushed [TS]

  by not not so much by read her boyfriend [TS]

  now I just society yeah mhm and I don't [TS]

  know perhaps that perhaps this is the [TS]

  result of Justine reading too much into [TS]

  the subtext but i did find it really [TS]

  interesting that you've got the [TS]

  homosexual subtext associated with the [TS]

  character who is known in the comics for [TS]

  saying flame on gonna constantly yeah [TS]

  yeah Johnny I mean so basically the way [TS]

  the story works is that the premises [TS]

  that the the Fantastic Four are inspired [TS]

  that there's actually a scene at the end [TS]

  of the fourth issue where did they [TS]

  alleged are deadly and jack kirby and a [TS]

  couple other guys meet these characters [TS]

  at a party [TS]

  yeah and so that the theory is that they [TS]

  but they have been basing some of the [TS]

  characters that have existed in San [TS]

  these new characters the Fantastic Four [TS]

  on these other characters so there's a [TS]

  guy named Reed Richards who is this kind [TS]

  of snooty scientist who's lost in his [TS]

  work at Columbia University they're sooo [TS]

  strong who is his girlfriend she's got a [TS]

  little brother Johnny who is rebellious [TS]

  rebellious teenager and their parents [TS]

  had died in a car crash and then there's [TS]

  been great been busy been grammar is he [TS]

  does he have another name but hes b is [TS]

  the Ben Grimm analog and he is a friend [TS]

  of reeds from college and and he has a [TS]

  sort of carries a torch for there's a [TS]

  huge torture see he has a boxing gym [TS]

  yeah and he's and he's the earthy guy [TS]

  from Brooklyn that you guys back TM the [TS]

  analog of a been accepted these are [TS]

  people in basically the real world right [TS]

  and and and therefore had my comes to [TS]

  their family ties are nowhere near as [TS]

  seamless or stable as the Marvel [TS]

  characters and that's saying something [TS]

  given the drama and the storm and wrong [TS]

  that goes on with your usual fantastic [TS]

  for title but that was the thing about [TS]

  unstable molecules is just how [TS]

  unfulfilled and [TS]

  happy everybody agrees with everybody [TS]

  else can be the subtitle of it is the [TS]

  true story of the world's greatest [TS]

  foursome [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah yeah and it's not of [TS]

  course not true but in the end I yea [TS]

  sorry I hate to break it to you but they [TS]

  have a spoiler already have these [TS]

  president reductions and post scripts [TS]

  where the that they kind of do this this [TS]

  postmodern oh this is how this was [TS]

  inspired by the characters biographies [TS]

  you just read his reference material in [TS]

  the back yeah it's it's it's one of [TS]

  those you know [TS]

  yes it acts as if it is truly true and [TS]

  that they've got the one of the nice [TS]

  things about it is that it does cut back [TS]

  and forth between this this comic strip [TS]

  color comic book called vapor girl when [TS]

  is theoretically written by Stanley that [TS]

  is that in the story the artist of vapor [TS]

  girl was a neighbor i think yes of sooo [TS]

  strong and he's the reason that the all [TS]

  the Marvel Comics guys come to that [TS]

  party and and that's used that cuts back [TS]

  and forth between her sort of terrible [TS]

  life and the life of the damage the [TS]

  tribulations of vapor girl that's its do [TS]

  the only person who seems really happy [TS]

  with his life in the series is read and [TS]

  I think it's just because he's too [TS]

  intellectually disconnected from it to [TS]

  realize what he what he does or doesn't [TS]

  want right because you take a look and [TS]

  Susan the grocery store and she's [TS]

  thinking I never asked to be the parent [TS]

  of a teenager when I was still a [TS]

  teenager myself [TS]

  the biggest reason she got together with [TS]

  Reed was because she was hoping he'd [TS]

  provide a father figure for Johnny so [TS]

  that seems to imply that there's she she [TS]

  isn't feeling particular connection to [TS]

  him she was just kind of playing the [TS]

  long con is that were johnny hates [TS]

  everything about his life because he's a [TS]

  teenager and his some situations all [TS]

  screwed up Ben can't connect with women [TS]

  because he dumps them after one month [TS]

  because their fingernails are square [TS]

  where they do your table manners or [TS]

  whatever and trim your fingernails [TS]

  family and because he's there because [TS]

  theoretically still life sort of [TS]

  idealized sooo yeah and yeah it's a but [TS]

  there's a scene that back to the cabin [TS]

  reed is trying to figure out how to [TS]

  propose to see when he's abstracted into [TS]

  what would be advantageous in the [TS]

  cabbies like do you love her tell her [TS]

  that and just ask her to marry you and [TS]

  reduce all but why would I do [TS]

  yeah it's it's it's it's really i was [TS]

  very impressed i think it's really well [TS]

  done it and then [TS]

  and it it's definitely interesting to [TS]

  say okay people who are knowledgeable [TS]

  about superhero stories and things like [TS]

  that we're going to take that knowledge [TS]

  and tell a story about people that [TS]

  doesn't involve powers or anything [TS]

  beyond the beyond the real world and [TS]

  these people are kind of miserable and I [TS]

  just find it interesting story of the [TS]

  year and just say that their parts of it [TS]

  that are funny i love the fact that [TS]

  throughout all four we see the kind of [TS]

  ongoing adventures of Johnny and his and [TS]

  his friend who who are believed by these [TS]

  guys but get a little bit of their [TS]

  revenge that they give is still the car [TS]

  didn't necessarily give as good as they [TS]

  get but yeah they take the brake off the [TS]

  car and then later they steal this guy's [TS]

  car and then I get the crap beat out of [TS]

  him but it you know the defiance that [TS]

  that makes it appealing though [TS]

  yeah yeah now it's so that was some some [TS]

  not necessarily comic relief but a [TS]

  little kind of adventure and fun of [TS]

  showing that these guys aren't going to [TS]

  take it that I that I kinda like but [TS]

  yeah it's it is sort of miserable people [TS]

  in a min in bad situations and and in [TS]

  the end I think that's that sooo ends up [TS]

  kind of breaking free from her condition [TS]

  whereas sort of read ends up as this [TS]

  kind of miserable user in the lab in the [TS]

  middle [TS]

  well be interesting to see if you could [TS]

  take that the basic premise behind the [TS]

  switches take away the superpowers and [TS]

  these the dynamics and the personalities [TS]

  that play out and I'd love to see how [TS]

  that would get applied to other Marvel [TS]

  properties for example what if daredevil [TS]

  didn't have his super enhanced senses [TS]

  and all you have basically is a blind [TS]

  lawyer who has this out outside sense of [TS]

  moral obligation these profoundly [TS]

  screwed up relationships with women [TS]

  maybe they were there was actually [TS]

  another Marvel series called powerless [TS]

  there's a four-issue series i think each [TS]

  issued out with a different Marvel [TS]

  character remember a spider-man Peter [TS]

  Peter Parker being on the cover of one I [TS]

  think it started following those themes [TS]

  but i haven't read it and it was already [TS]

  came out right around the same time so I [TS]

  wonder if that's what they were doing [TS]

  yeah it's interesting because you've got [TS]

  that you know the character dynamics [TS]

  right yeah man and then so that's the [TS]

  question is if you pull the superhero [TS]

  aspect out what's left i mean you could [TS]

  argue that them in spider-man 2 i think [TS]

  is actually a pretty good movie but it's [TS]

  really a movie i think i might have said [TS]

  this on a previous podcast it's really a [TS]

  movie about a guy who's got problems who [TS]

  happens to be a superhero right and [TS]

  that's the superhero just get you in the [TS]

  door but that's [TS]

  not really i just realized the Marvel [TS]

  Marvel more they've launched the nor [TS]

  books last year [TS]

  random i had of course picked up the [TS]

  x-men run and it's pretty much the same [TS]

  thing we have these characters they [TS]

  don't have powers and they transpose [TS]

  some of the traits and it basically [TS]

  takes those themes and what are the [TS]

  dynamics like when you take the mutant [TS]

  powers or the crazy situations out of [TS]

  the equation right stick into different [TS]

  historical context of the thing I IA i [TS]

  liked about unstable molecules it was [TS]

  really taking the fantastic out of the [TS]

  Fantastic Four [TS]

  yeah I and then you know when you [TS]

  started thinking about because it ends [TS]

  with sort of the the party in the [TS]

  meeting and so in your mind you're like [TS]

  oh and then Stanley went home and [TS]

  created the Fantastic Four and we all [TS]

  know that originally Kirby and Stan Lee [TS]

  kind of run and artwork and it was [TS]

  fantastic and then that sort of imagery [TS]

  and like what I brought to the table [TS]

  with the history the Fantastic Four and [TS]

  how like fantastic and cosmic at all is [TS]

  really brought the fact this was like [TS]

  people's daily lives will use your body [TS]

  for right had made that contrast so [TS]

  great and then you compare to your own [TS]

  life and like why people started reading [TS]

  the comics for escapism to begin with uh [TS]

  yeah when I was really interesting and [TS]

  I'm which johnny and his friend do they [TS]

  think conversations of right about about [TS]

  the comics and identify this comic from [TS]

  me describing this panel and things like [TS]

  that that's definitely a part of what [TS]

  they're doing there [TS]

  I would love to know if the writers are [TS]

  influenced by the sopranos because one [TS]

  of the things that one of the themes [TS]

  that arc through that entire series was [TS]

  that no matter how much you may want to [TS]

  change your basic nature it is your [TS]

  basic nature you know and that was the [TS]

  end of the series 2 which is that [TS]

  despite being in therapy for years Tony [TS]

  never really changes he just has a [TS]

  better vocabulary for figuring out who [TS]

  he is and it seemed like this with [TS]

  unstable molecules every change these [TS]

  guys made was a result of who they were [TS]

  already not who they wanted to be or or [TS]

  you know they were limited by they were [TS]

  limited by the nate by the very nature [TS]

  who they were [TS]

  which is almost the opposite of any [TS]

  other superhero comic which is oh you [TS]

  can fly the world is your oyster or if [TS]

  you read Richard oh you bring the [TS]

  construction any direction you can solve [TS]

  any problem known to [TS]

  and all right because that's that's the [TS]

  that's the Marvel way right as the [TS]

  powers are sort of formed with the with [TS]

  the character and you along with the [TS]

  character you don't get the you know you [TS]

  get the powers then that you don't [TS]

  always get the powers that you you want [TS]

  to get the house she deserves [TS]

  maybe you get the powers you deserve [TS]

  yeah i know that this is sort of Stanley [TS]

  model i think in some ways which is why [TS]

  it's kind of fascinating that you have [TS]

  invisible girl the 1960s because i [TS]

  really wonder what sort of feminist to [TS]

  subtext there is to that you're right [TS]

  which is address after dead-on and [TS]

  enable medical schools where she feels [TS]

  sometimes she's visible and invisible [TS]

  yeah exactly and there's the terrible [TS]

  women and in the Bookroom rato gentle it [TS]

  oh man I mean it fits that's where the [TS]

  real Slim is it was just awful [TS]

  yeah yeah oh I i'm also i mean obviously [TS]

  one of the things that that unstable [TS]

  molecules is about is about the creative [TS]

  process it is about taking elements from [TS]

  a world and its reverse engineering [TS]

  right but it's taking elements from the [TS]

  real world and then how do you as a [TS]

  creator weave these into that thing that [TS]

  that is fantastic and amazing and so [TS]

  throughout how do you take these crappy [TS]

  lives and turn them into escapist fare [TS]

  well right and so and it's funny because [TS]

  you're playing spot the reference but at [TS]

  the same time it really makes you think [TS]

  that not only do you have these four [TS]

  characters but you've got in in the [TS]

  first issue I think Reed is talking [TS]

  about how he's getting sued by a former [TS]

  lab assistant of his who's like victor [TS]

  von domm or something like that and it's [TS]

  very obvious that that's like he tells [TS]

  the story about how he's got this awful [TS]

  guy who came from Eastern Europe and [TS]

  stole his stole his ideas and and maybe [TS]

  because dr. doom and Johnny's buddy who [TS]

  sort of short and fat becomes like a [TS]

  mole man analog and and throughout just [TS]

  like how-to writers take bits of real [TS]

  life and turn them into something that [TS]

  is altogether or mostly different anyway [TS]

  if not altogether different [TS]

  wow I just a blown your minds ok let's [TS]

  talk about her being really concur [TS]

  yeah we concur and looking for what [TS]

  about the artwork [TS]

  ok please to be you know guy davis and i [TS]

  think is one of the most underrated [TS]

  artists in the the [TS]

  business now and he certainly he's the [TS]

  best one of the best storytellers if not [TS]

  the best storyteller working his panel [TS]

  to panel flow is is so seamless that you [TS]

  don't even really notice the transitions [TS]

  that you just kind of read through very [TS]

  smoothly and it's like you're watching a [TS]

  scene play out you know he don't lie i [TS]

  think he's not as big as other artists [TS]

  because he draws real people and not [TS]

  real in the Bryan Hitch ultra-realistic [TS]

  movie way but really isn't [TS]

  they're all 20 pounds overweight dumpy [TS]

  nobody is fantastically beautiful the [TS]

  right [TS]

  no not at all yeah he's currently he [TS]

  does the BPRD in the hellboy [TS]

  universities a regular artist on that [TS]

  and his own mark mark ebook which is [TS]

  excellent but you know for this kind of [TS]

  story that's like about real people in [TS]

  the real world he gets like the [TS]

  architecture and the clothing and the [TS]

  expressions and is his artwork is just [TS]

  on the sort of side of cartoony but it [TS]

  flows it has just enough lines to get [TS]

  the kind of mood across like a good [TS]

  cartoonist and just the story flows from [TS]

  panel to panel to panel beautifully it [TS]

  also borrows pretty heavily from the [TS]

  comics conventions of the 1960s in a no [TS]

  Marge way without completely replicating [TS]

  them which I really liked and whoever [TS]

  the colorist is on this did a brilliant [TS]

  job as well because the colors also have [TS]

  that great late 1950s early nineteen [TS]

  sixties atomic pastels feel to them [TS]

  something I noticed in the art is that I [TS]

  think there's a dual reference here is [TS]

  in the last issue [TS]

  sue has has created this party for for [TS]

  all of reeds people from the University [TS]

  and he hasn't even shown up yet and we [TS]

  see her stressing out before everybody [TS]

  gets there in the next time we see her [TS]

  she's had a few martinis and she's tipsy [TS]

  and what the way it's portrayed she has [TS]

  these bubbles over her head which is [TS]

  funny first I thought well this is kinda [TS]

  like the mundane version of the kirby [TS]

  krackle you know you get those little [TS]

  Bob bubbles all over somebody and [TS]

  they're pulsating with with up with our [TS]

  strange energies from beyond writer yeah [TS]

  and it also of course is the more [TS]

  obvious one that I came to later was [TS]

  it's also that was the invisible girls [TS]

  power right was to make little bubbles [TS]

  and in this case she's got a little bit [TS]

  all around here but they just mean that [TS]

  she's soused it's very good but uh but [TS]

  it's it's good i mean it's good stuff [TS]

  and it does not look like anything [TS]

  modern which is which is part of that [TS]

  the really nice thing about the art is [TS]

  that it works really well it's really [TS]

  good but it doesn't look even remotely [TS]

  like something from the 21st century [TS]

  which was published in 2003 I think [TS]

  that's why I remind me so strongly of [TS]

  madness because it's bad men as a [TS]

  serious strives so obviously to [TS]

  replicate the look of the period [TS]

  um this does the same thing except it [TS]

  doesn't quite hit you over the head [TS]

  would look how effective we are looking [TS]

  at atlantic we are it instead what [TS]

  they've done is they've recognized that [TS]

  for modern comics readers are used to [TS]

  certain compositions and certain [TS]

  illustration styles and then it somehow [TS]

  manages to marry those back to the [TS]

  things that people are reading in [TS]

  nineteen fifties and sixties and it it [TS]

  gives it this really beautiful period [TS]

  feel without it feeling anachronistic if [TS]

  that makes sense [TS]

  mhm it's almost if if you weren't paying [TS]

  attention you wouldn't notice you would [TS]

  just go with it but when you start to [TS]

  pay attention there's all those layers [TS]

  there that's actually this I think it's [TS]

  actually signed a really good comics [TS]

  illustration is when it takes you awhile [TS]

  to unpack it and realize exactly how [TS]

  well it's done as opposed to people you [TS]

  know they would look my costume has [TS]

  patches look right which is anyway I [TS]

  think guy davis is one of the best [TS]

  artists working today [TS]

  I think I think there's an argument to [TS]

  be made that comics are always met made [TS]

  to be read more than once because you're [TS]

  a kid and you get it and you want to [TS]

  know what happens and you rip through it [TS]

  right so first time a can help you see [TS]

  what's on the next page of somebody's [TS]

  fighting over there i got a hurry to get [TS]

  through it all and that's read one right [TS]

  and then and then I maybe I i assume [TS]

  people do this when it's not just me and [TS]

  then you go back and then you you know [TS]

  what's gonna happen but now you're [TS]

  really making the journey and in digging [TS]

  down into each panel [TS]

  yes sadly I think that less true did [TS]

  with today's comics that are written [TS]

  more for the the trade paperbacks then [TS]

  it was you know back when we were kids [TS]

  reading comics the i/o if you read an [TS]

  issue of the Mighty Avengers today and [TS]

  then read it again in a week and another [TS]

  I'm another week i'm not sure you would [TS]

  get more nuanced out of it because it's [TS]

  already compressed or because it's so [TS]

  decompressed that you don't like I think [TS]

  in the decompression process all of [TS]

  those nuances float away and have have [TS]

  gone out because it's about more big [TS]

  splashes and explosions and the fact [TS]

  that artists are paid by the page and as [TS]

  our writers so the more volume right if [TS]

  you write less stuff but make it on more [TS]

  pages [TS]

  yeah i can see that i mean i still think [TS]

  that there are just start the pictures [TS]

  have detail that if you're really [TS]

  reading through and sort of saying okay [TS]

  and he says this and then fight and then [TS]

  he says this and then this happened [TS]

  thing happens you know you're you're not [TS]

  necessarily going to drink in what's [TS]

  actually on the pages i think that just [TS]

  the just the going back and noticing [TS]

  that the nuances of the art but you me [TS]

  and some people don't do it right I [TS]

  think that's the other part of it is [TS]

  some people just kind of ripped through [TS]

  it and get the story and they move on [TS]

  and they're not focused on now I can [TS]

  jump onto a comic store and let my [TS]

  opinion note I guess I guess what I'm [TS]

  saying is that it's just something that [TS]

  really can unfold in the rereading it [TS]

  doesn't necessarily not everything [TS]

  necessarily doesn't unfold and not that [TS]

  many readers necessarily do it but that [TS]

  I think there's there's some natural [TS]

  levels there by the way I had I i [TS]

  interviewed the in advance new york [TS]

  comicon interview the president of dark [TS]

  horse and the richardson yes and he [TS]

  referred to [TS]

  he was talking about their the digital [TS]

  comics initiative which is now old news [TS]

  although i think it's being announced in [TS]

  about two hours as we record this but [TS]

  it's old news by the time you listen to [TS]

  this dear listener but he referred to [TS]

  what what you call the flimsies he [TS]

  referred to them as pamphlets right [TS]

  which is a common term actually in the [TS]

  industry which is which is a good term [TS]

  and it gets the same thing across so [TS]

  that that person on Twitter who said [TS]

  stop calling them limbs you're driving [TS]

  me crazy it's all right we'll call an [TS]

  ambulance now [TS]

  yeah but because that's what they are [TS]

  always think of pamphlets and think of [TS]

  like Revolutionary War I was just signal [TS]

  which were basically the difference if [TS]

  you ever read those though a common [TS]

  sense is not you know [TS]

  oh I've skimmed it and I'm done it's [TS]

  it's a pretty hefty work so yeah let's [TS]

  bring back pamphlet is a descriptive [TS]

  term 444 serialize yes pamphleteers [TS]

  necessary for serialize publications [TS]

  there a gap in [TS]

  looks ya dead tree edition versus the [TS]

  digital edition so to get back to the [TS]

  Invisible Woman the bubbles and so on [TS]

  and so forth one of the things I've [TS]

  always wondered about is she really [TS]

  doesn't use your powers for a whole lot [TS]

  other for a whole lot beyond purely [TS]

  defensive maneuvers and you know it's [TS]

  usually i was super quick block these [TS]

  bricks from playa in a class the classic [TS]

  uses right I don't think some reason i [TS]

  have been a car more offensive well the [TS]

  reason i bring that up is because when [TS]

  you read I'm rising stars one of the the [TS]

  characters and rising stars Joe [TS]

  Straczynski jet just rozinsky is rising [TS]

  star series one of the characters little [TS]

  dark Haven her power is being able to [TS]

  create very small force fields or or you [TS]

  know pinch thinks open or closed [TS]

  she's my staff she becomes a trained [TS]

  assassin because the carotid artery is [TS]

  about as big as her force field extends [TS]

  and that got me thinking you know I and [TS]

  this may be because i haven't widely [TS]

  read the the Fantastic Four but why have [TS]

  has it never occurred to sue storm that [TS]

  she's got this tremendous offensive [TS]

  power that she could use i think in the [TS]

  the in preparation for this podcast i [TS]

  reread the burn run which is of course [TS]

  the second greatest run of the Fantastic [TS]

  Four after the kirby lee run and then I [TS]

  reread the hitch will our run which is a [TS]

  more recent one and in the the hitch [TS]

  more run if she does I believe uses her [TS]

  she makes people's optic nerves [TS]

  invisible that's making them blind and [TS]

  and so some more things along those [TS]

  lines not killing people because yeah [TS]

  that actually does your planetary to [TS]

  wear her in a lot where where the storm [TS]

  analogue spoiler [TS]

  this is from analog in planetary because [TS]

  her optic nerves have become invisible [TS]

  her husband has to build her a pair of [TS]

  goggles that she can actually see and it [TS]

  was just the thought the fact that [TS]

  someone thought this through the logical [TS]

  conclusion i was really coming [TS]

  you're right if you turn invisible [TS]

  everything transition [TS]

  you're stomping around like a around [TS]

  unless you take your retinas visible [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  in which case your your easy to find [TS]

  loading disk so we're not sugar but she [TS]

  said I mean I remember things where it's [TS]

  like I create a force field and use it [TS]

  to punch reading it matters that but [TS]

  it's not particular day basically she's [TS]

  a telekinetic intresting alright because [TS]

  it's invisible bubbles right [TS]

  The Voice founders are probably a [TS]

  problematic character I mean there's a [TS]

  there's a reason why they it's it's what [TS]

  it's violet in the incredible yeah has [TS]

  who has the senior who wishes she could [TS]

  be I'm singled and she's all and she's [TS]

  all defensive to she's she's making [TS]

  bubbles just protect the family that's [TS]

  her role Sam deal [TS]

  yeah I find vilest problematically [TS]

  character because again when you're 14 [TS]

  years old there are times when you're [TS]

  like oh if only the earth would open up [TS]

  and swallow me and this kid can have it [TS]

  happen so in some ways it's it's almost [TS]

  wish fulfillment it's also a great [TS]

  metaphor for learning how to grapple [TS]

  with your adolescent demons right when [TS]

  you're talking about a grown woman it's [TS]

  more it's more awkward in especially as [TS]

  society has evolved since the early [TS]

  sixties to have a grown woman mother [TS]

  because of course the family dynamic has [TS]

  evolved over time to married [TS]

  mother-of-two I believe now [TS]

  yes Tom and have her still be the you [TS]

  know my power is to hide like I said [TS]

  I've always wanted to be a problematic [TS]

  character actually being five or six [TS]

  years old and watching the Fantastic [TS]

  Four animated series and this one [TS]

  believed not sticks in my head 30-odd [TS]

  years later we're sooo goes to her [TS]

  portrait taken and so it in an evening [TS]

  gown no less and it turns out it's an [TS]

  elaborate ruse by dr. doom to kidnap her [TS]

  I had no Doctor Doom has his own photo [TS]

  studio that during raids well this is [TS]

  the thing it was a camera where the [TS]

  minute the minute the lens snap these [TS]

  ropes came out and bounds to head to [TS]

  foot and offers out of the camera [TS]

  yes yes and she freaks the hell out [TS]

  pardon my language and they spend the [TS]

  rest of the episode trying to try to [TS]

  rescue her and I even as a five-year-old [TS]

  I was all what the fudge why mention my [TS]

  way she's forced to behold the face if [TS]

  you will that sounds like a platform in [TS]

  spider-man 67 [TS]

  squares i have this normal object know [TS]

  haha there are ropes that was better [TS]

  than you are mine and yeah it's just [TS]

  like dr. doom agassi dr. doing that [TS]

  cartoon series was kind of like a wily [TS]

  coyote feelin and anyway yes everybody [TS]

  always dr. doom [TS]

  yeah it was every scheme no matter how [TS]

  elaborately setup and always failed [TS]

  that's what makes these cartoons not so [TS]

  sophisticated no sixties and seventies [TS]

  really card us so maybe it's the cartoon [TS]

  impression it's always you know maybe [TS]

  look at su with a sort of but even if [TS]

  you go back and take a look at the [TS]

  seventies or sixties you had a role [TS]

  monroe and Jean Grey and Kitty Pryde and [TS]

  all of them seem to have a lot more [TS]

  autonomy and a lot more respect from [TS]

  their colleagues / friends and Sue Storm [TS]

  ever gets you know I was like oh come on [TS]

  you know you're super powered and the [TS]

  best you can do is complain that no [TS]

  one's coming to dinner so one of the [TS]

  things that i liked about ultimate [TS]

  Fantastic Four is that not only did it [TS]

  replace the older man younger woman [TS]

  relationship with two people of the same [TS]

  age but he sue is the field leader [TS]

  because that is is a leader and is [TS]

  really smart and is actually if not if [TS]

  not on par with read she is just a one [TS]

  step down on the on the on the [TS]

  scientific smarts department and then [TS]

  she's got all of these other skills and [TS]

  she you know she she kicks ass and in [TS]

  that in and it's a it was interesting to [TS]

  see the choices that they made to really [TS]

  reset the dynamic there and how how in a [TS]

  20th 21st century context perhaps that [TS]

  relationship could we fix this [TS]

  relationship a little bit make them more [TS]

  witness the return elastic stretchy dude [TS]

  and visit land you're going to do and [TS]

  actually read is portrayed an ultimate [TS]

  Fantastic Four especially as being kind [TS]

  of a kind of a screw-up now and there [TS]

  that you know he is father can't stand [TS]

  to be socially incompetent he's an [TS]

  isolated as he gets them almost killed [TS]

  yeah well although I look at the [TS]

  ultimate Fantastic Four almost as a [TS]

  cheat like right al [TS]

  they will they know they changed the age [TS]

  of Reed & and did that you brought you [TS]

  up to try to explain the relationship [TS]

  where if you look at the mill our hitch [TS]

  run again at which interestingly enough [TS]

  was they had just come off the ultimate [TS]

  with a huge commercial success [TS]

  and it was like all this publicity the [TS]

  next book they're gonna do and they [TS]

  start putting out teaser images of [TS]

  panels and and the next book was the [TS]

  Fantastic Four and I think the first [TS]

  couple issues sold really well and then [TS]

  it basically tanked because people [TS]

  weren't interested in the characters or [TS]

  whatever but I happen to think that run [TS]

  is so great because it focuses on the [TS]

  family dynamic and the introduces old [TS]

  character whose name I forget which is a [TS]

  su refers to her as mrs fantastic [TS]

  she's essentially Reed Richards as a [TS]

  woman and a tjs she was back in the [TS]

  original kirby lee Ron she's an old [TS]

  character was like he dated in college [TS]

  and she was his equal and super smart [TS]

  and she's doing this big scientific [TS]

  thing in in the comics and here of [TS]

  course runs off with her and there's a a [TS]

  lot of the story is about y su isn't [TS]

  threatened by her or some of the [TS]

  interesting things the relationship [TS]

  between Sue and read and they kind of [TS]

  elevate it and make it work and not [TS]

  another even opposites attract like she [TS]

  grounds him kind of thing but she's got [TS]

  that earthy with mine it wasn't even [TS]

  like that it was Arabic writing book [TS]

  learning it was it was it was a much [TS]

  subtler than that but they did it in in [TS]

  such a way that she came off as a very [TS]

  strong female interesting character that [TS]

  you have a late and it made sense why [TS]

  Boober genius read was attracted to her [TS]

  and she didn't have to be super genius [TS]

  for him to be attracted to make a [TS]

  relationship work they clicked and it [TS]

  was awesome seeing if it was their [TS]

  anniversary dinner just one of those [TS]

  nice quiet moments in a comic but they [TS]

  don't rarely do anymore it was their [TS]

  anniversary he went back in time took [TS]

  her to a restaurant back in time so they [TS]

  could sit in the restaurant she's like [TS]

  why'd you bring me here we go what [TS]

  significance and he's like a look and it [TS]

  shows them it's basically the younger [TS]

  them on the street meeting for the very [TS]

  first time and so that was his romantic [TS]

  gesture was like bringing them back to [TS]

  so they could watch their first meeting [TS]

  and I was like wow that's actually [TS]

  really very thoughtful very thoughtful [TS]

  yeah and it it was it made the [TS]

  relationship work without having to [TS]

  change it like Ultimates did because I [TS]

  couldn't figure out how to make it work [TS]

  that's why i say ultimate is kind of a [TS]

  cheat it's easy to make them the same [TS]

  you make them equal sure now they can be [TS]

  together but to do it in a way that [TS]

  they're not equals and yet the [TS]

  relationship works which also could be [TS]

  why you know it didn't sell very well [TS]

  well it is the ultimate is a different [TS]

  dynamic I I mean ultimate is in itself a [TS]

  achieve it by that definition because [TS]

  the whole idea is we take this and we're [TS]

  kind of reimagining it and so the [TS]

  balance of power shifts and ultimate [TS]

  Fantastic Four Sue's dad is the general [TS]

  and he's the one who gets them the [TS]

  distance a building that they can have [TS]

  all their labs and we're as ready as [TS]

  sort of a self-made man in many ways and [TS]

  family has disowned him and last time I [TS]

  checked he had died i think he blew [TS]

  himself up and they killed him and in [TS]

  some marvel ultimate event he's actually [TS]

  still alive is he still alive but sent [TS]

  to the negative zone or something like [TS]

  that I don't think he's secretly working [TS]

  in a lab at this point or something like [TS]

  that of course because they wouldn't [TS]

  actually have the guts to kill the guy [TS]

  even in the ultimate university that [TS]

  they always like this [TS]

  the second-stringers like the the lost [TS]

  got eaten by the blob and things like [TS]

  that right [TS]

  no its disgusting yeah anyway so I hello [TS]

  different dynamic and I have that I [TS]

  thought if the point of the Ultimate [TS]

  Universe is to say well what if we did [TS]

  what if we reimagine how this might work [TS]

  in a modern context having it be [TS]

  different and have and say let's explore [TS]

  what it's like with this sort of [TS]

  different dynamic for the fantastic [TS]

  right I thought that really worked and I [TS]

  thought the ultimate Fantastic Four [TS]

  started out really promising Lee didn't [TS]

  start out strong and then kind did start [TS]

  strong write as many of the old Mick [TS]

  titles did yeah this is the minute you [TS]

  start working in the traditional [TS]

  villains I or or oh it's von doom or or [TS]

  you know in the case of the ex minute he [TS]

  started bringing back sinister whoever [TS]

  like here we go this is a nod to the [TS]

  continuity people right ultimate version [TS]

  of X alright you know for example to the [TS]

  next one I thought was a lot more [TS]

  interesting when it turned out that [TS]

  Logan had infiltrated the team because [TS]

  he was on someone else's payroll and [TS]

  screwed the dynamics and the trust and [TS]

  then next thing you know [TS]

  hey it's resolved let's move on to [TS]

  something else right and those with [TS]

  stuff is better when it's things like [TS]

  kitty pryde moving next door Peter [TS]

  Parker and getting him because like what [TS]

  that would what that that's impossible [TS]

  that could never happen and like all [TS]

  right that that that kind of stuff but [TS]

  you're right they have a tendency to [TS]

  back it off and say well no we we don't [TS]

  want to go down these roads which is the [TS]

  whole point of the alternate universe [TS]

  was to do something different [TS]

  and the weird thing is although i do [TS]

  like the Fantastic Four I think the one [TS]

  character that I don't kind of cock an [TS]

  eyebrow tis is the thing just I think [TS]

  Benjamin Graham is a fantastic character [TS]

  inside and out and he's the only one I [TS]

  don't really feel ambivalent about for [TS]

  example with well because yeah I know [TS]

  what you said because with Johnny Storm [TS]

  it no matter what iteration you have [TS]

  easy he's always kind of a self-involved [TS]

  sure quite an almost every student that [TS]

  are really actually in the the yeah the [TS]

  best single line in the the hitch malhar [TS]

  book was as he was going off to join [TS]

  this new band and talk to his publicist [TS]

  and all this stuff is sue says my god my [TS]

  brother is Harris Hilton Paris Hilton [TS]

  yeah he could be very serviceable from [TS]

  whoshere the Melbourne has helped [TS]

  exactly anything when you think about [TS]

  that is like yet that's Johnny Storm and [TS]

  that's actually not an uninteresting [TS]

  character in that kind of content [TS]

  writers kind of exasperated in a way and [TS]

  I I guess you're thinking about Ben [TS]

  Grimm which is always fascinated me is [TS]

  in many ways I feel like he's kind of [TS]

  the most heroic of the four of them kind [TS]

  of lute ly you've got a guy who doesn't [TS]

  he can never blend he's never going to [TS]

  be able to disguise himself and walk [TS]

  among the normals and he is one of the [TS]

  forces of will that keeps this this [TS]

  cobbled family together despite having [TS]

  the length of the lease sturdy claim to [TS]

  any of them I mean he's not married any [TS]

  of them he's not related by blood [TS]

  no he just a schoolchild just flew a [TS]

  rocket for his buddy and what we got for [TS]

  it [TS]

  he's kind of like a meteorite mixed with [TS]

  a doula and if it and he's got the [TS]

  wisdom of Brooklyn behind him yes he's [TS]

  got this really large battle story where [TS]

  you know he's got this really rich [TS]

  backstory where it turns out he's Jewish [TS]

  and shiver for people and he actually [TS]

  had a bar mitzvah when he spent his [TS]

  first 13 years is the thing because he [TS]

  figured you know today I became a new [TS]

  man compared to when I was just benjamin [TS]

  graham and that kind of selflessness [TS]

  they do a really the reddest voice [TS]

  always did a really good job of not [TS]

  beating you over the head with it where [TS]

  you know it's kind of submerged and so [TS]

  he loves Pete said he loves to arm [TS]

  wrestle with Colossus and he's always [TS]

  quickie and again I feel like he's the [TS]

  real unsung hero of the series and it [TS]

  always kind of baffled me that Reed [TS]

  Richards is always the leader of the [TS]

  team when he's the idea guy for the team [TS]

  everybody else kind of does the heavy [TS]

  lifting when it comes to execution [TS]

  well I'm Ben [TS]

  been sort of the moral is the grounded [TS]

  one right i mean you have to say it [TS]

  that's sort of the idea identities that [TS]

  he's the earthy grounded got some [TS]

  sterile analogues to Earth Wind to earth [TS]

  fire air and water [TS]

  I guess he is the grounded one asked me [TS]

  to see the earth analog and reduce the [TS]

  water analog and soon as the air analog [TS]

  you know in back in the mid-70s a [TS]

  recognized he was the most important [TS]

  character and made a cartoon of just the [TS]

  thing if you don't remember max here I [TS]

  would have loved to see that but i dont [TS]

  even Marvel team-up to write you would [TS]

  who works better with others than the [TS]

  thing about her man would be it you can [TS]

  Wolverine for some reason to and one [TS]

  full version is it on like five [TS]

  different marble teams this point right [TS]

  for this was different i think it a [TS]

  loner thing is also on the Avengers now [TS]

  but the thing cartoon you should youtube [TS]

  it because of course you took the thing [TS]

  and made him a teenager who had thing [TS]

  rings that you would put together and he [TS]

  would say thing rings do your thing and [TS]

  he would become the big rocky guy that [TS]

  kind of undercuts the essential tragedy [TS]

  the character because if you can turn it [TS]

  on and off [TS]

  yeah he also had a dune buggy which is [TS]

  pretty cool and everybody's and [TS]

  remarried is the best parts of boys it [TS]

  was the it was the thing Flintstones our [TS]

  system and in the opening animation you [TS]

  have fun with Fred Flintstone and the [TS]

  teenager with his thing rings doing his [TS]

  thing and grim the teenager I really [TS]

  glad you too much so I would learn too [TS]

  late they took to grasp that right i [TS]

  only have vague memories of it [TS]

  oh and i was like one day I did look on [TS]

  youtube and sure enough [TS]

  oh I hope it gets to hulu at some point [TS]

  every or that the Japanese spider-man is [TS]

  was my find on the internet if you see [TS]

  the Japanese a better man show [TS] was actually streaming that [TS]

  for he had the big robots 00 it is it's [TS]

  like it's like a manatee of Agriculture [TS]

  man or anything like that extent our [TS]

  Rangers considered accepting spider-man [TS]

  oh no I when he can't beat the villain [TS]

  he gets into his giant spider man robot [TS]

  yes seriously there there so you know [TS]

  it's funny more have profound [TS]

  ambivalence about robots and comics [TS]

  culture anyway so why not make it better [TS]

  so Marvel had this whole the whole [TS]

  period in the sixties and seventies [TS]

  world where they did the licensing need [TS]

  a live-action stuff and they're Japanese [TS]

  shows they're all [TS]

  all these cartoons and I you know the [TS]

  the original spider-man cartoon and [TS]

  spider-man and his amazing friends [TS]

  the Fantastic Four cartoon where they [TS]

  dropped the human torch because they [TS]

  were afraid kids we try to light [TS]

  themselves on fire and stuck in the [TS]

  robot and had her beautiful bottoms dead [TS]

  yesterday and had that story [TS]

  ya see that it right the whole and [TS]

  Herbie was evil when controlled by the [TS]

  time computer that's right and they also [TS]

  had that kid who did who is a fan of the [TS]

  human torch in the comic who lit himself [TS]

  on fire [TS]

  I say and then one of those heartwarming [TS]

  somatic tell ya [TS]

  so they went through that period and [TS]

  then Marvel had been it's sort of [TS]

  financial problems and some bad deals [TS]

  and didn't do anything for a long time [TS]

  and then it came out of that the end of [TS]

  the nineties and started again with [TS]

  another wave of things like the x-men [TS]

  movies in the spider-man movies and [TS]

  horrible and we will Fantastic Four to [TS]

  Fantastic Four movie I dragged my [TS]

  husband to the first one that was a [TS]

  payback thing for you owe me and and I'm [TS]

  going to make you suffer through this [TS]

  and i didn't realize i would also be [TS]

  suffering that's it [TS]

  yes heard bad i actually thought the [TS]

  second was better than the first one and [TS]

  I said yeah right because somebody asked [TS]

  me about this and no no I'm not saying [TS]

  it's good i'm just saying it's better [TS]

  than the right the first ones we have in [TS]

  the cold having a flow [TS]

  the first one is so abysmal amazingly [TS]

  terrible that it's mind-boggling at [TS]

  least the second one has sort of you [TS]

  know [TS]

  laurence fishburne is the voice of the [TS]

  silver surfer Andre Braugher is the [TS]

  general yeah there's there's there's [TS]

  some Galactus stuff although they below [TS]

  the Galactic story by making it not it [TS]

  as interesting as the either ultimate [TS]

  Fantastic Four's Galactus or the regular [TS]

  Galactus it's just kind of a flock of [TS]

  black sea galley things that it sits [TS]

  right I think that's fantastic for movie [TS]

  was the incredibles be incredible yeah [TS]

  well the the live action one with [TS]

  strangers they got so much of the [TS]

  casting right [TS]

  for example i will i will argue that you [TS]

  and Griffin could have been a great [TS]

  mister mister fantastic and i would [TS]

  argue exactly the haha because he just [TS]

  has that as a screen presence he always [TS]

  has that kind of remove any way and [TS]

  it's it's sort of that mmm yes sir i'm [TS]

  floating in the ether of my big thoughts [TS]

  and and I thought that presence work [TS]

  well but he just connected with nobody [TS]

  but i see i actually didn't get that [TS]

  sort of ether edge got that he was so [TS]

  slight both physically like his if he [TS]

  had such a slight president yeah and I [TS]

  don't think of your injury does even [TS]

  though Reed Richards is often his own [TS]

  hair back to that doctor who had podcast [TS]

  matt smith's rendition of the doctor is [TS]

  much more mr. fantastic then that guy's [TS]

  was as mr. fantastic you're right you're [TS]

  you know your sort of Rights that sort [TS]

  of scattered and i'm not entirely [TS]

  connected to humanity write the music [TS]

  Chris Evans who plays the human torch i [TS]

  actually thought encapsulated some of [TS]

  that I'm are on my amateur common [TS]

  rockstar right i don't care who you are [TS]

  and you simply science has an obvious [TS]

  that right let's go check it was a good [TS]

  thing and which is why it's a little [TS]

  strange in because i started watching no [TS]

  ordinary family right which is basically [TS]

  it's almost another dimension we posted [TS]

  a podcast about how did I wish I'd yes [TS]

  made the time for that but you know [TS]

  which is basically a variation on the [TS]

  Fantastic Four [TS]

  yes and what it is so it's a little bit [TS]

  of a cognitive distance to have Chiklis [TS]

  is it playing again the thing except [TS]

  without the big scaling right stuff in a [TS]

  rocks this time yet rocks are expensive [TS]

  yeah but you know I thought chipper was [TS]

  great i will make the argument for you [TS]

  and Griffin I think Julian McMahon was [TS]

  very good as dr. doom because he sort of [TS]

  traffic's not kind of medicine tourism [TS]

  didn't want to say anything I didn't [TS]

  like him at all [TS]

  you know maybe it's because i also [TS]

  watched nip talk and he was really good [TS]

  as as just a complete moral voice on [TS]

  that show so so that carried over was [TS]

  why I was was horribly constructed where [TS]

  he was just like a a wrong guy who [TS]

  wanted to steal the Terran I think [TS]

  documents are you to do one film why and [TS]

  I've been in hollywood filled with lots [TS]

  and lots of blonde waspy starlets do you [TS]

  go with Jessica Jessica Alba so yes in a [TS]

  movie with arguably many casting [TS]

  problems [TS]

  jessica alba was the biggest she's so [TS]

  vapid right and soon let's just go to [TS]

  the road that invisible in a second to [TS]

  first off you take you take the the the [TS]

  hot girl who's who's famous because [TS]

  she's hot and you make her in visible [TS]

  brilliant [TS]

  yeah right and and then you know okay [TS]

  dr. that already has some problems as [TS]

  we've discussed with with how she's [TS]

  portrayed and what her role is and then [TS]

  you give that part to somebody who is [TS]

  capable of standing there looking pretty [TS]

  tiny that's the aside from checklist [TS]

  they really didn't hire actors who could [TS]

  act they hired pretty people who are [TS]

  good at being pretty which works for the [TS]

  human torch I i argue right so maybe [TS]

  that was just now that I can't look at [TS]

  it anymore after america which I those [TS]

  pictures of multiple freaky [TS]

  yeah I don't know yeah I'm nervous about [TS]

  that casting as well yeah I just think [TS]

  they missed the mark where the knowing [TS]

  the x-men which that those films had [TS]

  some problems to it always bothered me [TS]

  that Hugh Jackman doesn't look like [TS]

  wolverine he's not what he seems way too [TS]

  tall and all the others a ranking at [TS]

  least he could act okay [TS]

  andrena right now he got he nailed it [TS]

  right even though good actor he didn't [TS]

  you like it to me but he was will bring [TS]

  right that is the higher good actors [TS]

  sort of role for superheroes Fantastic [TS]

  Four just missed that like day in class [TS]

  with ya the studio's higher good actor [TS]

  yeah well to sidebar from and there's [TS]

  things there's a story circle and [TS]

  circulate last week about hiring jon [TS]

  hamm to play Superman and in the i think [TS]

  was well you'd have to go with some of [TS]

  the Superman is obviously age since jon [TS]

  Hamm's very visibly in his late thirties [TS]

  as opposed to the fresh-faced [TS]

  20-somethings that have occupied the [TS]

  world before the whole key of Superman [TS]

  is man [TS]

  yeah but he needs to yeah well that's my [TS]

  super boy [TS]

  yeah and it got me thinking about how [TS]

  difficult it is actually to cast for any [TS]

  of these any of these things because it [TS]

  comes down to the tension between really [TS]

  attractive people because let's face it [TS]

  most superheroes are our pen ready brand [TS]

  x we're good-looking me giving well they [TS]

  are always and women always have [TS]

  anti-gravity breasts are apparently just [TS]

  a superpower every woman so you know how [TS]

  do you find somebody who is presumably [TS]

  attractive enough to to be physically [TS]

  believable and yet capable of managing [TS]

  to act and it's it's gotta be tough but [TS]

  you just hire actors who can play the [TS]

  parts like you know you can say that [TS]

  Downey jr. there doesn't actually look [TS]

  like a tony stark or multi-millionaire [TS]

  industrialist got it [TS]

  that's right the busted but that's a [TS]

  whole thing you totally believe it yeah [TS]

  because he can act [TS]

  yeah yes Denzel Washington once [TS]

  commented that if Hollywood was casting [TS]

  race blind he would have been a good [TS]

  Superman and the more I thought about it [TS]

  the more I thought that yeah absolutely [TS]

  I would have totally I would have [TS]

  totally bought Denzel Washington is a [TS]

  Superman especially since I was on [TS]

  Denzel Washington is james bond that's [TS]

  it has that calls you always have you [TS]

  and your husband cast the the black [TS]

  adventures [TS]

  now we on I just I know you guys like to [TS]

  play casting case isn't ever could [TS]

  explain okay so i'm giving her a blank [TS]

  look right outside bar [TS]

  ok sidebar the sidebar my husband and I [TS]

  were talking after with the denzel [TS]

  washington movie i began ranting and [TS]

  raving about how there's an entire [TS]

  generation of minority actors who [TS]

  actually would make fantastic [TS]

  superheroes for example i was i was [TS]

  arguing that Dwayne Johnson could [TS]

  plausibly play Superman like character [TS]

  or any superhero [TS]

  I mean he's got charisma the--in yang [TS]

  the man can rock spandex as we saw from [TS]

  his WWE days you know and he's kind of [TS]

  like a rock looking he's cooking [TS]

  superhero soup [TS]

  yeah so that and what this turned into [TS]

  is is my husband saying okay let's turn [TS]

  back now into an african-american [TS]

  character which again is very similar to [TS]

  what J michael Straczynski did with his [TS]

  squadron supreme pizzas that was a [TS]

  budget supreme and I thought okay Don [TS]

  Cheadle Batman that's obvious and so [TS]

  instead of being rohde & and be more [TS]

  machine and I'm you have to get that and [TS]

  we went and we basically the casting [TS]

  everybody from there and I said this is [TS]

  why do Jason's look at discuss [TS]

  nationwide casting game is so much fun [TS]

  yeah is that it brings out sort of [TS]

  everybody's vision everybody's carrying [TS]

  really right way but i think is their [TS]

  sample else argued the Queen Latifah [TS]

  could be Commissioner Gordon because [TS]

  she's just got the best i'm down like [TS]

  I'm yeah yeah yeah I'm and Andre has [TS]

  sounds like a seventies not my patient [TS]

  my dream actually I think it's better [TS]

  because i thought well you know you have [TS]

  Andre Braugher as the riddler because [TS]

  the way you would write this Riddler is [TS]

  he'd be so much smarter than the rest of [TS]

  humanity feel profoundly isolated and [TS]

  resentful and he'd be acting on that and [TS]

  Andre barrister kind of actor who can [TS]

  convincingly you know portray that while [TS]

  i slowly know that he's cuckoo for cocoa [TS]

  since this is an interesting thing to [TS]

  explore because there are characters [TS]

  like Batman that there's there's [TS]

  many many many different interpretation [TS]

  right are all valid Batman last Michael [TS]

  Ryton fell Kilmer language Clooney but [TS]

  you know that you have super detective [TS]

  Batman the world's greatest detective [TS]

  you also have my parents were killed I'm [TS]

  a psychopath Batman and everything in [TS]

  between [TS]

  that would be a social activist he'd be [TS]

  rich either through his own making or [TS]

  through inherited money and he'd be [TS]

  taking a look at his disintegrating [TS]

  Gotham which is a Baltimore analog or [TS]

  Detroit analog and he'd be like clearly [TS]

  the system isn't working on making [TS]

  myself the system and but you have that [TS]

  to read for the wire version that man [TS]

  without a consignment Batman but the the [TS]

  thing is fantastic for me to bring this [TS]

  back full circle of fantastic for it [TS]

  doesn't have those different versions [TS]

  know it's a reason there's many villages [TS]

  Richards is Reed Richards let you know [TS]

  Batman has all these different [TS]

  iterations so which makes casting hard [TS]

  you wouldn't think fantastic for which [TS]

  has no iterations really like everybody [TS]

  Ben Grimm is Ben Grimm and there isn't [TS]

  like there was the happy Ben Grimm the [TS]

  well the difficult lyrics right [TS]

  the difficulty is Reed Richards kind of [TS]

  a tough character crack and I think some [TS]

  of that well I mean he's he's a he's a [TS]

  an egghead he's a leader sort supposedly [TS]

  he's a man of action because he's got [TS]

  these superpowers [TS]

  I think one of the reasons that it might [TS]

  be hard to cast Reed Richards is because [TS]

  that character is kind of a weird [TS]

  amalgam of traits and and some creators [TS]

  have done better with him than others [TS]

  right you know Ben Grimm is easier right [TS]

  and johnny is actually easier [TS]

  sooo i think you know just we're gonna [TS]

  miss with just cal but they were there [TS]

  are better options that the actor Reno [TS]

  you can fit on lots of different [TS]

  directions [TS]

  Robert Downey jr. could probably even do [TS]

  Reed Richards home [TS]

  are you guys familiar with the site [TS]

  mighty God know it's a Canadian [TS]

  writers name and lawyers name is [TS]

  Christopher Byrd and he blogs about [TS]

  comics a lot of the site called mighty [TS]

  God and back when Marvel did [TS]

  Civil War arc and all the titans he [TS]

  really basically rewrote the dialogue is [TS]

  a parody and satire and the reason I [TS]

  bring this up is because i actually [TS]

  think he's got one of the most spot on [TS]

  Reed Richards where he's managed to make [TS]

  a parody of the character but [TS]

  get to the heart of the the guy who [TS]

  again you know was thinking on a [TS]

  completely different plane as the rest [TS]

  of us where the very last issue that he [TS]

  rewrote his Reed Richards writing a [TS]

  letter to see which is we have two [TS]

  children don't worry i think the girl in [TS]

  the boy if that's what they are I think [TS]

  they miss you and you and I go to end [TS]

  its hilarious at the same time without [TS]

  yeah this guy has managed to nail his [TS]

  character and that's part of the problem [TS]

  is American cinema has kind of been a [TS]

  reflexive tendency to really dislike [TS]

  intellectuals like they just think that [TS]

  audiences can connect with them right [TS]

  and there has to be there has to be more [TS]

  than being huge brain it no not always [TS]

  sometimes you just have somebody who's [TS]

  really smart and they're much smarter [TS]

  than you are and yeah I'm not sure I [TS]

  believe will get that that read in the [TS]

  live-action fantastic four movies was [TS]

  that smart [TS]

  no I didn't feel smart from you have I [TS]

  told us he was smart I think that's what [TS]

  they try think that's where Howard [TS]

  Griffin was trying to play it as though [TS]

  you know I think my lofty thoughts and I [TS]

  don't think through the consequences and [TS]

  so I spent a lot of time looking stunned [TS]

  in the headlights that mark guy because [TS]

  he really did i will i will give you [TS]

  guys this he really did spend a lot of [TS]

  time both movies just kind of like Shh [TS]

  what just happened oh my god right [TS]

  before projections didn't take this into [TS]

  account even if you're that smart they [TS]

  do they should [TS]

  yeah it's the thought 36 things down the [TS]

  road I think it's back to the American [TS]

  devaluation of of brainpower words oh [TS]

  you think you're so smart but you didn't [TS]

  think about this their digital Einstein [TS]

  your you know I checked you're right we [TS]

  do values to pity George would work with [TS]

  the people who wanted the people and [TS]

  artists one nothing with Stephen Colbert [TS]

  to right right yeah we're smart enough [TS]

  to know what's real [TS]

  without the need of fat readiness and [TS]

  yes that truthiness is what is important [TS]

  yeah i think you know so I think about [TS]

  what I know it's what I feel in here [TS]

  yeah i feel that i might know thanks for [TS]

  evidence so so before we go because [TS]

  we're running out of time [TS]

  um I wanted to get Jason you seem to [TS]

  have done the most homework here what we [TS]

  anybody want to throw out as the [TS]

  essential reading if they want to if [TS]

  they're struck by this podcast to go [TS]

  back and read some fantastic four will [TS]

  throw in any way to spend well I'm [TS]

  stupid unstable molecules worth a look [TS]

  unstable molecules i think is actually [TS]

  just a good comic if you like comics I [TS]

  agree I [TS]

  great nothing to do with the Fantastic [TS]

  Four it's just a good read it is now the [TS]

  original you read the original leaker p [TS]

  run i have the holdup [TS]

  no yeah no it doesn't hold up in the [TS]

  sense that you know you would put it [TS]

  against like comics today as far as [TS]

  storytelling and paste and all that but [TS]

  for like a view of sixties mentality you [TS]

  know that they're getting into the [TS]

  rocket and those original strips there's [TS]

  a great panel were like yeah I think Ben [TS]

  Graham says oh you know maybe I don't [TS]

  know if this is ready yet and Reed [TS]

  Richards response do you want the [TS]

  commies to beat us you are you Howard [TS]

  you so just the sort of Cold War sixties [TS]

  mentality in the comic it's great and [TS]

  Kirby's artwork is fantastic and it was [TS]

  just the beginning not intended [TS]

  that's considered to be their best work [TS]

  right meow again and the introduction of [TS]

  the silver surfer and Galactus and [TS]

  there's some great stuff right in there [TS]

  but it's more anthropological like it's [TS]

  an interesting trip [TS]

  how does the burn run hold up burn run [TS]

  holds up really really well in my mind [TS]

  that's like it has a set different [TS]

  science fiction it also has those great [TS]

  character moments [TS]

  although it doesn't hold up as them as a [TS]

  family as much more interested in them [TS]

  as individuals and the science-fiction [TS]

  aspects of I when he brought the [TS]

  she-hulk into yeah that was kind of fun [TS]

  isn't just a do not everybody there was [TS]

  so many stories and like you had in the [TS]

  eighties we're halfway through the issue [TS]

  you're like is this one issue because [TS]

  you get a complete story with a [TS]

  beginning middle and they go somewhere [TS]

  the introduces new science fiction [TS]

  concepts and some alien has taken over [TS]

  whatever and they're like all caught and [TS]

  then they're escaping and then they get [TS]

  out you're like holy shit that was 22 [TS]

  pages now what wow [TS]

  also watch the doctor who references [TS]

  because john byrne being canadian grand [TS]

  experiment a lot of Doctor Who and and [TS]

  there are so many doctor who references [TS]

  that he sort of lifts actually he were [TS]

  sort of steals things from dr. and puts [TS]

  them in fantastic four students it is [TS]

  that after the kirby run which you can [TS]

  all get an essential paid trade [TS]

  paperbacks which are like 14 box or you [TS]

  can get in the coffee table [TS]

  hundred-dollar oversized hardcover [TS]

  edition the burn run you can get in [TS]

  trade paperbacks I think there's like [TS]

  nine of them though it was a pretty big [TS]

  yeah run and then i would say the mill [TS]

  our hitch which is much more recent [TS]

  modern storytelling pacing field which [TS]

  is like to trade paper [TS]

  max but to show how bad did commercially [TS]

  they didn't never did like the hardcover [TS]

  oversized which they don't have every [TS]

  other hitch artwork because here the [TS]

  artwork is beautiful but they didn't do [TS]

  it with that they did solicit it but it [TS]

  never came out with on orders were that [TS]

  low which is chalking I think those [TS]

  three there's an interesting uh nothing [TS]

  with this thing rings doing his thing [TS]

  right i think of anything a dear [TS]

  listeners out there that you should get [TS]

  out of this unstable molecules great [TS]

  read [TS]

  check out youtube for a thing ring do [TS]

  your thing which is just fantastic and [TS]

  the website you just mentioned mighty [TS]

  God yeah yeah [TS]

  look for the Civil War PDFs that he's [TS]

  got there because they're just fantastic [TS]

  they were very funny and then we didn't [TS]

  really touch on it but so do we we don't [TS]

  talk about 1600 do more the game the [TS]

  planetary oh and planetary khosh we're [TS]

  gonna have to do just a planetary [TS]

  podcast on giants worthless own but [TS]

  planetary had to take on the Fantastic [TS]

  Four in 1602 i really liked how that how [TS]

  they had read and and and dr. doom and [TS]

  and that was Neil came in right now we [TS]

  haven't even yeah yeah he really good [TS]

  ideas because stock-in-trade he's [TS]

  playing and donated all of the proceeds [TS]

  to that one to his the comics legal [TS]

  defense fund for a miracle man marvel is [TS]

  basically a finger to segment not Seth [TS]

  MacFarlane todd mcfarlane I like the [TS]

  other McFarland the finger because I [TS]

  don't think family guy's funny but sorry [TS]

  everybody but Todd McFarland yes who [TS]

  screwed him out what's happening is [TS]

  really going at it and it's still [TS]

  happening anyway 1602 is great i bought [TS]

  the heart number of that it is our and [TS]

  another again another nice standalone [TS]

  piece of work you don't actually need to [TS]

  know anything about continuity but if [TS]

  you ever read Marvel Comics you will get [TS]

  a kick out of seeing these characters in [TS]

  a seventeenth-century setting early 17th [TS]

  century setting it is brilliant the [TS]

  Daniel given guy he's he's good he's [TS]

  going places her head of my things [TS]

  pretty good if he if he works hard [TS]

  yeah that's right and two ND his [TS]

  wheaties right comes up with some [TS]

  original ideas [TS]

  yep alright well thank you the comic [TS]

  book club members once again for coming [TS]

  in Jason private thanks a lot thank you [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser thank you for coming [TS]

  thank you and I'm Jason Snelling until [TS]

  next time thanks for listening to the [TS]

  incomparable podcast and now it's [TS]

  clobberin time frame on this has been [TS]

  the incomparable podcast musical sadly [TS]

  and conquerable dot-com [TS]

  [Music] [TS]