The Incomparable

299: Stark Differences


  the uncomfortable number 299 may 2016 [TS]

  welcome back everybody to the [TS]

  uncomfortable this is a special episode [TS]

  where we had despite a popular thought [TS]

  that we like watch every new release and [TS]

  then immediately podcast about it [TS]

  actually only happens maybe once or [TS]

  twice a year [TS]

  this is one of those episodes a bunch of [TS]

  us went and saw captain america colon [TS]

  Civil War recently and because it came [TS]

  out a couple of days ago unless you're [TS]

  in the UK in which case I don't even [TS]

  know if one of our guests gonna even [TS]

  remember what happened because it came [TS]

  out last week so we're going to talk [TS]

  about civil war and let me introduce our [TS]

  guests i'm gonna start with james [TS]

  thompson because he is in Scotland and [TS]

  therefore saw this like more than a week [TS]

  ago and has been lording it over us the [TS]

  whole time [TS]

  hi James well thank you Jason's now I [TS]

  know you know a lot of super people so [TS]

  thanks for thinking of me and you know I [TS]

  knew it was you or tony stank I David [TS]

  jail or is in Indiana and so he aside [TS]

  more or less one with the rest of us did [TS]

  I David hi you guys are awesome [TS]

  uh boise st on is in texas and i believe [TS]

  Texas is still on in the u.s. so I think [TS]

  he saw us all screaming so you saw [TS]

  probably but uh earlier this week is [TS]

  that right yeah i saw press ground I'm [TS]

  sorry Jason I lost track i was talking [TS]

  to your heart and over here [TS]

  mm and what were we talking about she is [TS]

  big with the Utes on anyway [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser like me in California [TS]

  saw it very recently hi Lisa [TS]

  hi there it's a pleasure to be here and [TS]

  I I'm not sure is the movie come out in [TS]

  canada yet [TS]

  Erica enzyme yeah we saw it on thursday [TS]

  and when you say we do you mean your [TS]

  husband Stephen Japan ski assault with [TS]

  you I let him speak for himself [TS]

  I did see it with the thanks that if we [TS]

  if we didn't have justin trudeau in the [TS]

  and as prime minister now we probably [TS]

  wouldn't have gotten as early as we did [TS]

  now but now that the US Canada relations [TS]

  I said her now [TS]

  yeah now that the war's over taxpayers [TS]

  justin trudeau isn't already a part of [TS]

  the event any war involving Canada is a [TS]

  civil war [TS]

  oh the most civil it ends with one story [TS]

  paper so civil war you know [TS]

  Marvel it we will we do when we get our [TS]

  age of Ultron episode last summer I i [TS]

  think there was a conversation that we [TS]

  had that I keep coming back to which is [TS]

  that these aren't you know these are [TS]

  movies as we think of movies in that [TS]

  they're not stand alone movies they are [TS]

  they are part of this ongoing story line [TS]

  i think this is a movie that is not [TS]

  something that can be deeply appreciated [TS]

  if you either whole lot of levels here [TS]

  that you really need to have seen all [TS]

  the other Marvel movies released many of [TS]

  the other Marvel movies to get it and I [TS]

  i think what's great about that is that [TS]

  if you go in with that level of [TS]

  knowledge sort of like a long-running TV [TS]

  show then you can get a whole lot more [TS]

  out of it so I thought maybe we would [TS]

  start there [TS]

  I you know everybody's thoughts about [TS]

  this this this movie as an installment [TS]

  in a series and and how that you know [TS]

  how that played off of of your over your [TS]

  reaction to it how did your reaction fit [TS]

  in in terms of it being not a standalone [TS]

  movie as an actor would always remind us [TS]

  doesn't stand alone [TS]

  really i think but it is definitely part [TS]

  of the storyline that they've been [TS]

  building for so many movies now that [TS]

  makes so much money it's kind of amusing [TS]

  that the further they into the Marvel [TS]

  vs. the more the movie feel like comics [TS]

  where you have to where you have to have [TS]

  read all the backstory to fully [TS]

  appreciate the cameos over the [TS]

  developments or understand why something [TS]

  so significant especially the Atman [TS]

  sequence for example which I enjoyed [TS]

  greatly don't get me wrong but and it [TS]

  provided some much-needed levity [TS]

  however I feel like if you hadn't seen [TS]

  the ant-man movie book is already in the [TS]

  back of this bad acting like every guy [TS]

  and why is he putting on this suit and [TS]

  again that whole experience kind of [TS]

  reminds me of the experience of reading [TS]

  comments especially when the editors [TS]

  used to have to put notes footnotes you [TS]

  in the FCC issued of this is that I mean [TS]

  why is this black guy wearing a bomber [TS]

  jacket again [TS]

  yeah so you know I i agree with you that [TS]

  as the movies estimate ology gets more [TS]

  complex appreciate you can't really [TS]

  appreciate the standalone movies and I [TS]

  think it's kind of funny that these huge [TS]

  traumatic experiences are becoming more [TS]

  and more like the experience of reading [TS]

  comic books in the nineteen eighties [TS]

  where you have to put in the time in the [TS]

  knowledge just 200 this is why it's a [TS]

  big deal for or expected but you get you [TS]

  know you get some richness out of having [TS]

  it but you do have to have that [TS]

  experience [TS]

  yeah do i schooled outlet in the theater [TS]

  when when are we actually talked about [TS]

  what happened in the movies yes yes this [TS]

  would this is I will say it now i also [TS]

  thank you Lisa for prompting me [TS]

  hey this is the time we're going to fire [TS]

  off the spoiler horn this movies in [TS]

  theaters as we record this go see it and [TS]

  if you are haven't seen it yet don't [TS]

  listen to this yet [TS]

  okay I feel better the spoiler warning [TS]

  has encouraged us to continue because I [TS]

  actually kind of school that level of [TS]

  theater when um when Scott line hits the [TS]

  suit and then goes up to 50 feet [TS]

  yeah and it was kind of exciting to to [TS]

  watch that to talk to watch it go from [TS]

  both small to big that way and you [TS]

  didn't have to watch read the comics to [TS]

  get as excited about that but I still [TS]

  feel like there was a tiny bit of of [TS]

  layer word it did kind of helped me [TS]

  recover from you know the city of [TS]

  directions to the III actually I had the [TS]

  Giant Man Thing spoiled for me like a [TS]

  million people by I know lego set or [TS]

  something or another like that yeah [TS]

  oh sorry like a confirmation from Steve [TS]

  Inskeep yeah he's right i can get for a [TS]

  mix this happened [TS]

  ok i ended up actually kind of [TS]

  forgetting about it and even even [TS]

  knowing and management and the Avengers [TS]

  and all this stuff as well as I do [TS]

  even as Scotland's is saying you know [TS]

  only tried this once and nearly tore me [TS]

  in half and I can only do it for a few [TS]

  minutes i'm still think you want to see [TS]

  allow oh snap oh ok alright the movie [TS]

  had me to that extent that I'd forgotten [TS]

  about some of the stuff that I that I've [TS]

  known you know for like a year and a [TS]

  half yeah say yeah it's it's a it's a [TS]

  great moment I was so one of things that [TS]

  i think is one of the strongest scenes [TS]

  in the movie but i also think it only [TS]

  well I can see it only works because i [TS]

  feel it is so much better because of the [TS]

  other movies that we've seen with a [TS]

  specifically with tony stark and Steve [TS]

  Rogers is their conversation at the [TS]

  conference room table fairly early on [TS]

  right where they're where they're [TS]

  initially debating this idea of the [TS]

  psycho via chords and how they're going [TS]

  to regulate super-powered people and [TS]

  it's you know it's not a bad [TS]

  conversation on its face but if you've [TS]

  seen the captain america movie the Iron [TS]

  Man movies in the Avengers movies I feel [TS]

  like that scene is so much more a deep [TS]

  and interesting and I felt like that was [TS]

  the moment where I thought okay I see [TS]

  why this is a different kind of movie [TS]

  storytelling and why they are getting [TS]

  like this is the power of having stacked [TS]

  all these stories together is you can do [TS]

  a scene like that and you know who these [TS]

  guys are it [TS]

  it's the pinnacle it's the pinnacle of a [TS]

  series of Avengers scenes that take [TS]

  place around a conference room today yes [TS]

  and there are many James now I was just [TS]

  going to say I mean this is like the [TS]

  13th movie i think and and then moving [TS]

  to three movies a year as of 2017 who [TS]

  and it's just gonna get harder and [TS]

  harder i think to keep on top of the [TS]

  list of yeah it's really more like Game [TS]

  of Thrones you said the least Game of [TS]

  Thrones has the decency to kill [TS]

  characters are off and there's just one [TS]

  more on and they did kill off the lowest [TS]

  docks and that's I do i do want these [TS]

  are fun compared the game of thrones [TS]

  well I don't want to make this a game of [TS]

  thrones podcast I've got that later too [TS]

  I'm not what i would say is uh keep [TS]

  let's keep in mind a lot of these actors [TS]

  are their contracts run out after the [TS]

  next to Avengers movies and so I feel [TS]

  like what we are seeing is we need to [TS]

  introduce characters now because these [TS]

  are ones who are going to be around [TS]

  after the first wave of characters leave [TS]

  us because their contracts are up so [TS]

  that does feel a little bit like you've [TS]

  gotta I've gotta introduce these new [TS]

  characters so you can have something [TS]

  left after you know after Robert Downey [TS]

  jr. and chris evans say I'm done goodbye [TS]

  i'm going to count my money and let's [TS]

  introduce cactus look 13 so that we can [TS]

  keep going for that you find cheap to a [TS]

  rookie interior deal [TS]

  yeah I really like the casting for [TS]

  spider-man that like I'm I it was it's [TS]

  the first cinematic spider-man I've seen [TS]

  was like yeah I can possibly believe [TS]

  this is this is a gated this is a kid in [TS]

  New York as opposed to this is a [TS]

  remarkably mature looking at high school [TS]

  it happens to their study resemblance [TS]

  intended or he also sounds like he's [TS]

  from Queens to that's the first time [TS]

  they've done that [TS]

  yea even these American accent sounds a [TS]

  hell of a lot better than a lot of exes [TS]

  tablished grown English actors doing [TS]

  American accents so good for him and one [TS]

  of the things that I really liked here [TS]

  is is you have the consistency of the [TS]

  same screenwriters through all of the [TS]

  captain america movies and so II even [TS]

  more so than just having all of the [TS]

  Marvel movies coalescing here you've got [TS]

  this theme of of cap learning to work [TS]

  with a team through all the movies right [TS]

  in the first one he's got the Howling [TS]

  Commandos and in the first one he yearns [TS]

  to be part of the army [TS]

  it that's his whole thing is he wants to [TS]

  be in the army in the second one now [TS]

  he's he's learned to work with shield [TS]

  and everybody in the in present-day and [TS]

  now in this one you have the team kind [TS]

  of breaking up and and but he still [TS]

  needs people he still needs that team [TS]

  but now it's that warring instinct [TS]

  between his current team and his old [TS]

  team scores Bucky was in the Howling [TS]

  Commandos so it's it's this really nice [TS]

  theme there's a there's a there's a [TS]

  reason this is a captain america movie [TS]

  and not an event yes it's also the logic [TS]

  follow-on to the winter soldier movie [TS]

  and in a way that the Avengers although [TS]

  the event events of the Avengers are she [TS]

  warned in here as far as an example of [TS]

  why they need to regulate you know it [TS]

  it's it's really a fall on from the [TS]

  paranoia of of winter soldier and how [TS]

  how Steve learns that he kinda can't [TS]

  trust the people who have been put in [TS]

  charge and that that is what drives him [TS]

  in this movie and so it even though it [TS]

  does feel like an avengers movie and [TS]

  many many points I i can see why this is [TS]

  a logical third captain america movie [TS]

  and cic are slightly differently because [TS]

  in the first movie it's steve learning [TS]

  to trust himself especially after he's [TS]

  been zapped with the vinery and in arm [TS]

  and the roots for the distress with [TS]

  shield in the winter soldier actually go [TS]

  back to the Avengers when he discovers [TS]

  that he's been lying to their developing [TS]

  the weapons and I saw that the trust [TS]

  issue Steve Rogers works out in winter [TS]

  soldier is who can he trust in the [TS]

  answer is is that he's good [TS]

  is that he's got black widow and he's [TS]

  got from Sam and to his shock [TS]

  there's the question of does he choose [TS]

  to trust Bucky and so yeah he puts his [TS]

  faith in in Bucky at the very end of the [TS]

  movie and in this one [TS]

  the answer is Steve chooses to trust [TS]

  people overall people in human nature / [TS]

  institutions so I saw that is kind of [TS]

  the arc where it's sort of the evolution [TS]

  of whose team chooses to trust and why [TS]

  he chooses to trust them and then they [TS]

  like laying right out for you and that [TS]

  letter to Tony Stark in the final in the [TS]

  final sequence where he's like I don't [TS]

  trust institutions I choose to put my [TS]

  faith in people and the fact that he [TS]

  gives Tony both the letter where he [TS]

  apologizes and explains himself and then [TS]

  give him the phone with you can call me [TS]

  if you need me [TS]

  is him extending an olive branch and I [TS]

  liked how that mirrored Tony's attempt [TS]

  to to explain his side of things and [TS]

  extend the olive branch to Steve in a [TS]

  way that he thought Steve would would [TS]

  want with that historic pen signing like [TS]

  that scene with the two of them earlier [TS]

  return it's like it's an easy can get [TS]

  the words out that it's an olive branch [TS]

  he just shoves the pen over and tries to [TS]

  explain himself [TS]

  I thought that was like the most nuanced [TS]

  seen in their history together [TS]

  yes so yeah yeah so I really like the [TS]

  way it's mirrored and reversed in the [TS]

  end one seems like look I choose to [TS]

  trust people and even though you are [TS]

  somehow and on this weird government [TS]

  prison thing and I'm and all that I [TS]

  trust you to come through and do the [TS]

  right thing in the end and here's my [TS]

  santa fe and that's a trust that that [TS]

  Tony and weirdly enough i'm sorry i [TS]

  sleeping on it sort of parallels that [TS]

  I'm seeing an iron man 2i think it is [TS]

  where Tony's watching old footage of his [TS]

  dad and his dad finally turns the camera [TS]

  and says Tony I'm doing this for you [TS]

  I'm trusting you with my life's work [TS]

  this is what we're doing and once again [TS]

  it's it's somebody who Tony wanted to [TS]

  earn trust and affection from who [TS]

  finally gives it to him like kind of a [TS]

  distance but the point is he gets it [TS]

  I completely agree that the only thing [TS]

  that I'd have to add is I like that in [TS]

  in maintaining Steve's are we get [TS]

  touches like toward the end of Civil War [TS]

  Steve saying I could do this all day [TS]

  going all the way back to the beginning [TS]

  the first movie and and I feel like well [TS]

  too lowly exactly exactly and what we [TS]

  get overall in terms of his arc where we [TS]

  leave him at the end of this movie is [TS]

  for me the fully formed captain america [TS]

  that i know that you know I consider [TS]

  this is this is your this is this is the [TS]

  the the the the final form of Captain [TS]

  America as it were [TS]

  this is this is the captain america that [TS]

  we're going to get from here on as a [TS]

  constant and and I'm totally okay with [TS]

  us not getting a whole ton of you know [TS]

  developing Steve Rogers more and more [TS]

  and more going forward and letting him [TS]

  be a constant that we build other [TS]

  characters around it and I thought the [TS]

  movie was a little tight on the heavy on [TS]

  the Christ imagery at times because you [TS]

  could well it did because that's know [TS]

  that scene where he goes and grabs the [TS]

  helicopter and you get the beauty shot [TS]

  of his arms like tell me that's not [TS]

  crucifixion venturi and [TS]

  then you know he calls people he calls [TS]

  people to him more or less and extend [TS]

  mercy to people who don't deserve it [TS]

  like Wanda and then he's forgiving [TS]

  people over and over again and he's [TS]

  sacrificing himself for Bucky and I was [TS]

  like wow you really like the only other [TS]

  superhero that you that I've seen this [TS]

  much explicit cry symmetry with is for [TS]

  men one and Sharon Carter brings them [TS]

  all of his stuff and sings everything's [TS]

  alright everything's fine musical [TS]

  theater now no musical theater is [TS]

  everything I was just going to me that [TS]

  was in the movie I would I would I would [TS]

  put it to the panel that was in the most [TS]

  so the uh I think I I think talking [TS]

  about Superman is a parallel is [TS]

  interesting we're not gonna talk about [TS]

  Batman vs Superman but i do think that [TS]

  captain america has the same challenges [TS]

  a character that Superman has which is [TS]

  in many ways and and in many search [TS]

  traditional portrayals they are perfect [TS]

  and smiley and everybody loves them and [TS]

  they're all about goodness and evil they [TS]

  treat choose goodness at all times and [TS]

  it's hard i think to draw some [TS]

  interesting distinctions at in a [TS]

  character like that and I i am impressed [TS]

  with how they've handled it with steve [TS]

  rogers in the Marvel movies where he's a [TS]

  much more interesting character than I [TS]

  think I expected him to be when when [TS]

  they made the first captain america [TS]

  movie which i thought would be kind of [TS]

  boring and actually turned out to be [TS]

  pretty good and it's I I you know I [TS]

  credit chris evans and credit to the [TS]

  writers and and the producers of these [TS]

  movies that he's interesting because he [TS]

  is and that's not that's not a given and [TS]

  that's not easy i think captain america [TS]

  actually is probably my the one thing [TS]

  that I didn't like about this movie ever [TS]

  what runs through it and I and this is [TS]

  and i like the first to captain [TS]

  Americans I think they're probably my [TS]

  favorite of all the Avengers movies [TS]

  yeah i agree what i did i just find that [TS]

  you know that the the way that Marvel [TS]

  sort of like you know leaking in [TS]

  real-world events into their marvel [TS]

  universe and and this what this movie [TS]

  said to me is that basically America in [TS]

  the form of Captain America goes it [TS]

  alone because they think they know [TS]

  what's best and the whole time I'm [TS]

  thinking what captain america is [TS]

  actually wrong on this one you know hehe [TS]

  is he's breaking up the team he's [TS]

  causing a lot more damage anything's and [TS]

  at the very end he basically says [TS]

  hey I'm still cool though you know we [TS]

  can all still be friends and everything [TS]

  and it's almost like that's kind of like [TS]

  what America Tizen foreign policy this [TS]

  might be why Canadians need it is [TS]

  Captain America come on he is Captain [TS]

  America you know [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  this special episode of the [TS]

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  incomparable let's talk about the the [TS]

  two sides here and there takes on this [TS]

  and I I will also say the real world [TS]

  like this even said the real world [TS]

  bleeding in I think beyond a certain [TS]

  point it's dangerous to get to reel with [TS]

  these movies because I I think I'll what [TS]

  they've done is sort of gotten slightly [TS]

  real with it and if they took it to the [TS]

  full extent it would kind of make no [TS]

  sense because you would really need laws [TS]

  and things and structures to control [TS]

  superheroes and for quite frankly that [TS]

  point you're not watching Marvel Super [TS]

  Heroes anymore you're watching kind of [TS]

  militarized powered people and that's a [TS]

  very different kind of story so that [TS]

  they're doing a light touch on it [TS]

  so what we get is this real split [TS]

  between the idea that the superpower [TS]

  people should sort of do what they want [TS]

  because they know what was was right [TS]

  which I agree with stephen that's a [TS]

  little sinister right because it is [TS]

  essentially saying we know what's best [TS]

  where the most powerful creatures on [TS]

  earth and we're going to be in charge of [TS]

  what we do and then you've got the other [TS]

  side which is which is tony and the [TS]

  government and and the guy from from [TS]

  that movie that the incredible hulk [TS]

  movie that nobody saw grass be a general [TS]

  Ross who is now Secretary Rice saying [TS]

  will trust the people in the government [TS]

  which is also kind of hilarious given [TS]

  that the the last shadowy international [TS]

  consortium that ran superheroes tried to [TS]

  New York City I that but no no totally [TS]

  and then Hydra was inside shield but no [TS]

  no this time for sure we're going to be [TS]

  fine so we should structure that way i [TS]

  don't think the either of them are great [TS]

  choices but it is interesting [TS]

  those are the choices and that it's a [TS]

  switcheroo in that Steve mr. uh I'm [TS]

  representing the the establishment is [TS]

  the rebel here and Tony cuz he's racked [TS]

  by guilt I guess as decided that it's [TS]

  time to for him to grow up and be part [TS]

  of the the system so that what would [TS]

  what did y'all think of the that core [TS]

  the core battle between the registration [TS]

  side and the we're gonna go at our own [TS]

  wayside one of the things I thought was [TS]

  interesting that the [TS]

  lost from the original comics was the [TS]

  whole stuff about giving up your secret [TS]

  identity which was one of the reasons i [TS]

  think captain america was against it for [TS]

  all civil liberties aspect of that and [TS]

  there's the big moment where spider-man [TS]

  you know reveals his identity on [TS]

  national TV and I think once they took [TS]

  that away [TS]

  I was kind of I don't know I was very [TS]

  much on Captain America side for most of [TS]

  the movie and I thought Tony Stark was [TS]

  being an ass for most of the phone pit [TS]

  and and well that's just normal trip [TS]

  yeah yeah but no more so because I mean [TS]

  I I generally have you know i like him [TS]

  in all the other movies and in this [TS]

  movie I didn't really like him and a lot [TS]

  of the decisions he made throughout the [TS]

  movie i was just complaining about [TS]

  so yeah I mean that it was it was an [TS]

  interesting way that they are kind of [TS]

  because people also took different sides [TS]

  in this than they did in the comics [TS]

  because vision and to challenge were on [TS]

  Steve Rogers side and the comic and [TS]

  things like that so i don't know if they [TS]

  just wanted to get it exactly balanced [TS]

  yeah i think they did was six on each [TS]

  side and you know one woman on each side [TS]

  just be careful please [TS]

  I was interesting to see how they broke [TS]

  down who was on which side because it [TS]

  and I was thinking about this yesterday [TS]

  when one because I was trying to puzzle [TS]

  i would have something and I thought [TS]

  well it actually what it comes down to [TS]

  is it's a belief instead it is a belief [TS]

  in chaotic good versus lawful good if [TS]

  that makes sense [TS]

  well it is because if you look at who's [TS]

  on Tony side you have someone like [TS]

  vision who seems to be somebody who's [TS]

  like yeah look we have to uphold the [TS]

  principle of the matter the principal is [TS]

  something that always applies no matter [TS]

  the circumstances and you have Natasha [TS]

  who in Avengers like I have a lot of red [TS]

  in my ledger and you know because these [TS]

  movies none of these movies are are [TS]

  called Black Widow works out her issues [TS]

  we don't get a whole lot of Natasha and [TS]

  her ledger balancing but that was a core [TS]

  part of her character introduced and I [TS]

  figured this was more of her [TS]

  balancing especially since she watched [TS]

  came to chocolate I like right in front [TS]

  of her and you have to challenge was [TS]

  like look any side of the winner [TS]

  soldiers on I'm gonna be exactly the [TS]

  opposite side also you know I come from [TS]

  a company country that has these really [TS]

  strict codes and on the other side you [TS]

  have Hawkeye who is pretty much the [TS]

  definition of conditional morality and [TS]

  you know Scott Lang who was established [TS]

  in his own movie is having a moral code [TS]

  that's pretty situation which is I'm [TS]

  gonna I'm gonna stand up for what i [TS]

  think is right even if it costs me you [TS]

  know and then you have Steve who's all [TS]

  know some principles are worth fighting [TS]

  for even if they go against what society [TS]

  doesn't the time so it comes down to [TS]

  people who are much more comfortable [TS]

  with their own definition of morality [TS]

  versus those for like listen we live in [TS]

  a society societies have rules is well [TS]

  in Black Widow during the run of the [TS]

  movie I thought really like I get that [TS]

  she's got this like I'm a reformed bad [TS]

  guy essentially and so i'm i'm sort of [TS]

  trying to be good so I'm trying to stick [TS]

  with the program but i thought yeah but [TS]

  did you not see that the the winter [TS]

  soldier movie you're totally like hey [TS]

  did you not learn anything from the [TS]

  movie you were in and uh and then [TS]

  there's the moment and then I realized [TS]

  oh well that that's why it's like that [TS]

  is so that she has that moment where she [TS]

  lets them go because she actually is you [TS]

  know she's going along but only so far [TS]

  which is which is interesting that that [TS]

  is something that a lot of the people [TS]

  who are with Tony Stark honest and a [TS]

  black panther fits into this to our kind [TS]

  of not in it for his reasons and are not [TS]

  really is committed to it [TS]

  they're just kind of going along also [TS]

  the reason i love that spider-man is so [TS]

  young is holy crap Tony child soldiers [TS]

  really like that and that's something [TS]

  that should be brought up [TS]

  um and I think it it has come up in the [TS]

  comments from time to time to when you [TS]

  have somebody who's genuinely pretty [TS]

  young but you have to look this way Tony [TS]

  Stark had to make his case by leaning on [TS]

  his best friend by appealing to the [TS]

  black widows whole i would just like the [TS]

  group to stay together [TS]

  does it really matter how they get there [TS]

  because that's the question she asked [TS]

  earlier i'm somebody with like a revenge [TS]

  thing going on somebody who has quit [TS]

  with this is often the clouds because [TS]

  made of gems and hand waving and home [TS]

  and a child whom he addresses and throws [TS]

  technology [TS]

  jet and i'm not saying that his site is [TS]

  wrong because i can actually see a lot [TS]

  of Tony's arguments but i do think it's [TS]

  interesting how his life was recruited [TS]

  as opposed to captain america where you [TS]

  know you never were like well this is [TS]

  dumb and terrible and it's gonna end [TS]

  badly but what the heck we lost he [TS]

  really seemed like it was a cult of [TS]

  personality on his side like they were [TS]

  all just like yep well we'll follow him [TS]

  wherever he goes and and yeah I guess I [TS]

  had a little trouble just I i love the [TS]

  moral dilemma that the movie poses but I [TS]

  didn't quite buy like he said everybody [TS]

  on either side of it was almost like [TS]

  they just rolled dice and was like okay [TS]

  we're gonna put you over here and over [TS]

  there because that's going to make the [TS]

  poster look really good [TS]

  if I had I mean if they had kept the [TS]

  thing and I'd never read the comics so I [TS]

  didn't know about the forcing people to [TS]

  reveal their secret identities [TS]

  I feel like that would have made it so [TS]

  much easier for me to buy in to the the [TS]

  idea that captain america was was more [TS]

  sort of on the right side but I do kind [TS]

  of appreciate that the movie it's it's [TS]

  from his perspective it's got his name [TS]

  in the title but I don't think it came [TS]

  down super strongly on either side of [TS]

  the argument I think there are a lot of [TS]

  people that came out of the movie saying [TS]

  steve is a complete dick and he was [TS]

  wrong about this and and you know i'm [TS]

  not going to say either of those any of [TS]

  those people are wrong i just found his [TS]

  scenes mostly really boring because i [TS]

  did not care about Bucky I didn't care [TS]

  about his friendship with Bucky I wished [TS]

  it had been more like an avengers movie [TS]

  because I just wanted to see people you [TS]

  know clipping and bouncing off of each [TS]

  other [TS]

  I just ended up getting kind of bored [TS]

  with the the moral conceit at the middle [TS]

  of the movie how you feel about Bucky [TS]

  also is going to inform how you feel [TS]

  about Steve's stand here because in the [TS]

  end I i would argue that Steve while [TS]

  principled and he says in that [TS]

  conference room scene with Tony early on [TS]

  he needs its really he's doing it for [TS]

  his friend and he knows that his friend [TS]

  or he feels certain that his friend is [TS]

  wrongfully accused and he knows there's [TS]

  gonna be a rush to judgment and he's [TS]

  probably going to get killed and so on [TS]

  one level he's got principles on another [TS]

  level he's just reacting to this what [TS]

  turns out to be a real set up from from [TS]

  Zemo who has has framed him in order to [TS]

  create this this and we'll get 20 mo [TS]

  there's not a lot to say about him he [TS]

  sort of not many there for any reason [TS]

  but other than to start the ball rolling [TS]

  in to stop the ball rolling at the end [TS]

  so but but i do feel like you know one [TS]

  of these things is that it's really all [TS]

  hanging on Steve's relationship with [TS]

  lucky because you know the ultimately [TS]

  that's why he's doing this is to save [TS]

  him whose roots a person is innocent of [TS]

  this one particular crime and wrongfully [TS]

  accused you can't deny the loads of [TS]

  people who just want to see those two [TS]

  beautiful boys kiss [TS]

  I'm glad you said it so I didn't have to [TS]

  that's the thing about the teams though [TS]

  is that you know when you look at Tony's [TS]

  side it's all these people he's sort of [TS]

  recruited or that you know like with [TS]

  Brody best friends right or with the [TS]

  vision that he kind of had waived into [TS]

  existence [TS]

  yeah the vision comes from a computer [TS]

  program that's programmed to serve Tony [TS]

  Stark right and although we depended now [TS]

  you got it yeah i mean he sort of right [TS]

  but he's so too loose and you know [TS]

  spider-man well it's like you know you [TS]

  guys are awesome you guys are [TS]

  superheroes and and oh you mean is [TS]

  really pursued right he's at shuttle [TS]

  that's what thing on the other side you [TS]

  have people who have come together as a [TS]

  team [TS]

  partly because they're defending [TS]

  themselves they're under attack and they [TS]

  know they're not bad people [TS]

  I mean in this you know Bucky whatever [TS]

  but you know you have scarlet witch who [TS]

  wasn't meaning to do anything I mean she [TS]

  was trying to protect that as many [TS]

  people as possible her thing wasn't that [TS]

  she blew up the building [TS]

  it's that you know the guy she was [TS]

  trying to keep from blowing up all the [TS]

  people on the ground is really who blew [TS]

  up the building right you know and and [TS]

  you know and then you have Scott Lang [TS]

  who isn't guilty of anything here until [TS]

  they start acting but you know again [TS]

  he's he understands he gets it right he [TS]

  understands being persecuted and and so [TS]

  these are these are people coming [TS]

  together to fight for their lives [TS]

  whereas on the other side of Tony's team [TS]

  of people who are there to serve Tony [TS]

  which I thought was servin interesting [TS]

  balance but the thing with Natasha [TS]

  turning is she has a background in [TS]

  espionage she knows things are sometimes [TS]

  more calm [TS]

  located in black and white and she's [TS]

  also been persecuted so when she makes [TS]

  that turn and let's camp and Bucky go [TS]

  that's when she's she sort of jumps to [TS]

  the other side with them she gets it [TS]

  which again I thought was an interesting [TS]

  turn in the comics that Spiderman who [TS]

  goes over to the other side as well [TS]

  marine but I mean that there's a certain [TS]

  irony in the US government being worried [TS]

  about collateral damage from conflicts [TS]

  ok no it's just like be you know she ok [TS]

  so scarlet witch killed 12 people and [TS]

  saved 600 or something [TS]

  I'm you know nobody so well I mean cat [TS]

  points as I you know when he's talking [TS]

  too early in the film but yeah it's like [TS]

  nobody so focusing on the fact that they [TS]

  have saved you know the world multiple [TS]

  times right the needs of the many [TS]

  outweigh the exactly it's because she [TS]

  killed big deal people and I hate to [TS]

  sound cynical but there's so much [TS]

  emphasis put on these are what condoms [TS]

  who were killed and the idea being that [TS]

  you know it's kind of a big deal for [TS]

  comments to go outside their border and [TS]

  so one of the questions that is kind of [TS]

  percolating around is what people be [TS]

  that worked up over it if it were you [TS]

  know just a bunch of you know randos [TS]

  from from Lagos what [TS]

  well and that comes back this is one of [TS]

  the reasons i I've heard criticism and [TS]

  read it that the zeros is kind it is a [TS]

  villain or whatever but I think one of [TS]

  the reasons i really enjoyed him and [TS]

  it's not just because I enjoyed the [TS]

  actor but I like how it draws a really [TS]

  clear line with this is how people [TS]

  become radicalized like they lose [TS]

  everything they lose everything they [TS]

  lose their home and it's in the face of [TS]

  seemingly different world and they take [TS]

  a look at her like how am I going to fix [TS]

  this and I was actually kind of thrilled [TS]

  to be frank that they put a white face [TS]

  to wrap a radicalization here like it's [TS]

  just a white european dude who has [TS]

  decided that ok this bunch of [TS]

  super-powered beings lifted up my [TS]

  country blew it to smithereens killed my [TS]

  entire family [TS]

  how do I solve this problem in his [TS]

  answer and frankly he did succeed his [TS]

  answers i'm just gonna have the Avengers [TS]

  take themselves apart [TS]

  boom and [TS]

  story and to me the the radicalization [TS]

  of the character and then these subtle [TS]

  way by which he managed to get [TS]

  everything that he wanted to get done [TS]

  I think it's a pretty quietly powerful [TS]

  thing which is kind of remarkable movie [TS]

  like this which is the wiser a big and [TS]

  dumb and loud and and I mean that in a [TS]

  good way like you know you have a lot of [TS]

  exploring helicopter and then you and [TS]

  you have super soldiers living in the [TS]

  you know sleeping in tanks inside Barry [TS]

  and all the crazy stuff and then you [TS]

  have a guy who the end of the day is you [TS]

  know I just want to get to the point [TS]

  where the Avengers couldn't work [TS]

  together effectively as a team because [TS]

  they can't go through another country in [TS]

  the air and that happened he want team [TS]

  lisa I i have a problem with the way [TS]

  that that the movie is engineered [TS]

  because i don't i don't buy a lot of the [TS]

  yeah i mean the idea that uh no Scarlet [TS]

  Witch is terrible because those people [TS]

  died when you know [TS]

  yeah but she was trying to save them and [TS]

  oh well people some people died in [TS]

  Segovia it's like yeah sorry that [TS]

  although we save millions of people and [TS]

  and ultimately the world some people did [TS]

  die so I guess we're terrible people for [TS]

  doing that I quite honestly I not that [TS]

  couldn't happen i think realistically [TS]

  but the fact that the characters take on [TS]

  that guilt i thought was kind of [TS]

  ludicrous and and i'm gonna i'm going to [TS]

  single out here because talk about a a [TS]

  very good actress who has made some [TS]

  really interesting appearances in as new [TS]

  characters in genre before especially [TS]

  when she brings your little ships in [TS]

  star trek first contact but the offer [TS]

  Woodard a character here I hated it [TS]

  because she's in one scene and all she [TS]

  does is go shame i lost a child shame [TS]

  which is so essentially what Zemo does [TS]

  to which is I'm really angry because my [TS]

  family died and so I'm going to destroy [TS]

  you and I'm sorry I thought it was [TS]

  stupid because and I like the movie a [TS]

  lot but I thought all of these [TS]

  motivations they're just there to set up [TS]

  the action and I i just didn't buy them [TS]

  i did i do not believe that that [TS]

  hey Tony Stark I know you worked really [TS]

  hard to try and save as many people as [TS]

  possible but guess what you're not [TS]

  perfect [TS]

  somebody died so you're a jerk like no [TS]

  you need to be able to say and maybe [TS]

  they're trying to say that i didn't [TS]

  believe for a minute that Tony Stark [TS]

  like took that as that was the straw [TS]

  that broke the camel's back and he's [TS]

  like oh god you're right i just can't do [TS]

  this any [TS]

  or no he's like no this lady is right we [TS]

  are terrible because some people died [TS]

  when we save the entire world like that [TS]

  and so so I don't blame Tony Stark for [TS]

  that I blame the movie for that because [TS]

  I just don't think that it it it follows [TS]

  from there I i can i can see it is as [TS]

  something that is like throwing gasoline [TS]

  on already burning fire where he's just [TS]

  come off of age of Ultron being [TS]

  theoretically responsible for [TS]

  potentially an extinction-level event [TS]

  for the planet and on top of that his [TS]

  girlfriend broke up with him [TS]

  yeah no not enough talk about Ultron [TS]

  actually and I thought that was that was [TS]

  a stronger argument is I wanted that [TS]

  fiery scene where somebody like Tony [TS]

  says hey what I just said right [TS]

  hey we saved almost everybody and we [TS]

  save the entire world and had somebody [TS]

  thrown back into space and said you [TS]

  created the problem it's your fault that [TS]

  it even happened and nobody said wire [TS]

  they're not people marching in the [TS]

  streets why is nobody marching in the [TS]

  streets and demanding him being brought [TS]

  in front of a war crimes trial that's [TS]

  what I don't get that is one of the the [TS]

  the core flaws of like the last two [TS]

  movies is really ok now the crazy robot [TS]

  who looked at the entire country near is [TS]

  vanquished array and like literally [TS]

  nobody has an okay where did the robot [TS]

  come from [TS]

  yeah and if they had had that marching [TS]

  in the streets if they had had more of [TS]

  the stress of breaking up with pepper if [TS]

  they had all those things working on [TS]

  Tony in in the film not in our [TS]

  headcanons then Tony would've been a [TS]

  little bit more coherent in this and the [TS]

  ending would have been working here and [TS]

  I think that this is a case where it's [TS]

  this movie is trying to walk the line [TS]

  between being a movie on its own and [TS]

  being a movie that's just an installment [TS]

  of the Marvel Cinematic Universe so I [TS]

  think they may be tried to downplay all [TS]

  the references to age of Ultron in hopes [TS]

  that it wouldn't clinical confused [TS]

  people who are coming in just seeing [TS]

  this movie or people like me who had [TS]

  almost entirely forgotten HL truck by [TS]

  the time this movie started well but [TS]

  then shouldn't be the sakova Accords [TS]

  right I feel like that's a mistake here [TS]

  is that you can't have like the whole [TS]

  big giant piece of paper that nobody has [TS]

  known about in advance but apparently [TS]

  has been agreed to by everybody in the [TS]

  UN by the way that would never happen [TS]

  everybody should be aware of it all [TS]

  but have and college the copious you're [TS]

  hanging it right on the last avengers [TS]

  movie and and yet so then why do we even [TS]

  have the scene with scarlet witch like [TS]

  you could have hung it on the scene with [TS]

  the Scarlet Witch I suppose right you [TS]

  were irresponsible but instead they're [TS]

  like in like you said Erika they're [TS]

  walking that they're trying to walk that [TS]

  line but i don't think they do a very [TS]

  good job even though they fell off the [TS]

  line [TS]

  totally it's ridiculous because the [TS]

  Scarlet Witch if you take a look at her [TS]

  in combat she she say it like you [TS]

  planned she saves a ton of people on the [TS]

  ground and logos and she stayed safe [TS]

  sleep Rogers life and she's and she's [TS]

  horrified mostly because i think what [TS]

  tends to get lost here is this is a [TS]

  young woman with fairly severe PTSD who [TS]

  grew up in a war zone his brother has [TS]

  been dead for less than a year in [TS]

  another massive battle and who has been [TS]

  thrown back out onto the field as a [TS]

  warrior herself so you've got somebody [TS]

  who has considerable baggage [TS]

  she saved a teammate's life and saves a [TS]

  ton of people and gets casted as a [TS]

  villain in the media and then the second [TS]

  time we see her in battle she actually [TS]

  interferes between the Clint Black Widow [TS]

  thing because she tells me you're [TS]

  pulling your punches and she saves your [TS]

  teammate there to like I get your it [TS]

  irritated me how how she ended up being [TS]

  the the plotlines punching bag when in [TS]

  fact this is somebody who has his simply [TS]

  done nothing wrong and has tried to [TS]

  change the most she's most interesting [TS]

  character in the whole movie and she [TS]

  gets very little to do and she's the one [TS]

  with the big moral flip and Ultron to [TS]

  when she finally realized what was going [TS]

  on she began working against it and [TS]

  cheetah lady she's a lady we don't want [TS]

  to put her give her too much screen time [TS]

  she's been a Tony for her actions for [TS]

  god knows how long this entire arc and I [TS]

  feel like that I feel like that kind of [TS]

  got lost Terrence that was like oh look [TS]

  a hot topic teenager who waved her hands [TS]

  around when that's absolutely not [TS]

  whoo-hoo-hoo they don't want up to be [TS]

  and part of it is you did have a movie [TS]

  that was over stopped with tons and tons [TS]

  of characters so you could give the same [TS]

  time to everybody and you kind of have [TS]

  to grab these context clues and put them [TS]

  together with previous movies like you [TS]

  know Black Widow and her red ledger and [TS]

  so on and so forth but I feel like [TS]

  scarlet witch was really poor was poorly [TS]

  served by the by the plotting here I [TS]

  think that she was well served in a [TS]

  bunch of scenes in this movie though I I [TS]

  think her scene with vision is really [TS]

  interesting and of course if you read [TS]

  the comics i did lean over to my wife [TS]

  during the movie [TS]

  sit there married in the comics right [TS]

  and vision my vision rocking the sweater [TS]

  awesome I think she I think what does [TS]

  does well in that scene I and also i [TS]

  know this is just a mechanical thing but [TS]

  her powers are actually defined in this [TS]

  movie in all age of Ultron is like what [TS]

  does she do I don't know she waves her [TS]

  hands and things happen and we don't [TS]

  really weird and then this one she's [TS]

  like she moves things around she's very [TS]

  telekinetic maybe there's other stuff [TS]

  too but it's like I get I get how she [TS]

  fights I get how she works she can make [TS]

  a tornado [TS]

  okay great right and i think that's [TS]

  better for her to because it you know [TS]

  she's a she's a plot mechanism in most [TS]

  of age of Ultron and here they are at [TS]

  least setting down a few scenes where [TS]

  you get a sense of who she is and how [TS]

  she sort of figuring out like where she [TS]

  fits and I i did i did appreciate that i [TS]

  think one of the things that movie does [TS]

  fairly well is given how many characters [TS]

  there are two service i think it does a [TS]

  pretty decent job of telling some little [TS]

  stories some of the characters get [TS]

  nothing like Hawkeye gets a couple of [TS]

  lines and that's fine [TS]

  our lines in this one he didn't like the [TS]

  last two movies he's been putting [TS]

  together i was actually kind of like [TS]

  surprised that I saw him at home we saw [TS]

  his whole family in age of Ultron right [TS]

  so it's idiot you know here he doesn't [TS]

  we don't need that of of him but I think [TS]

  that some of the other characters got [TS]

  enough and that's what--that's to me why [TS]

  this movie at more than two hours didn't [TS]

  feel like it like some of the movies [TS]

  that are totally overstuffed with heroes [TS]

  and villains we're like we have five [TS]

  villains now and they all it felt more [TS]

  like I don't know because there were so [TS]

  many characters like that they--it's [TS]

  long because they will take their time [TS]

  to tell a little bit about this [TS]

  character and a little bit about that [TS]

  character and which kinda have to do [TS]

  right because this is again more of like [TS]

  a big TV show the only minimalize the [TS]

  villain I did you know they they could [TS]

  bless your movie I suppose would have [TS]

  liked made a huge villain for these two [TS]

  but i suppose the the main thrust of [TS]

  this whole movie is the conflict between [TS]

  the heroes [TS]

  well i like i like that we actually got [TS]

  got wanted Natasha and Sharon Carter [TS]

  able to to be not variations on the same [TS]

  generic female character which is [TS]

  something that [TS]

  has happened a bit in the Marvel movies [TS]

  with the notable exception being thor [TS]

  the dark world which is the reunion for [TS]

  Salima line movie that of all things as [TS]

  four distinct female characters that [TS]

  have more agency and more to do than [TS]

  they do throughout the entire rest of [TS]

  the series and and i think that i think [TS]

  that that Sharon wanted Tasha not having [TS]

  that maybe as much screen time is as [TS]

  even I would have wanted even though i [TS]

  think they're they're decently serve [TS]

  better served than other overstuffed [TS]

  superhero movies with women in them [TS]

  I I you know I feel like that balance is [TS]

  going to change now that I Perlmutter [TS]

  isn't calling the shots over the movies [TS]

  anymore and we can actually have Kevin [TS]

  5d saying yeah we definitely want to do [TS]

  a Black Widow movie and not say you know [TS]

  we would love to but and then having to [TS]

  leave an ellipsis on it because you know [TS]

  the guy in charge doesn't want girls [TS]

  toys and doesn't think girl centric [TS]

  movies actually sell I if you like we'll [TS]

  see we'll see the balance move toward [TS]

  actual balance finally and and this is [TS]

  this is kind of the beginning of it is [TS]

  is seeing some equal time given you know [TS]

  i'm i'm i'm assuming that we'll see [TS]

  we'll see some of that come out of and [TS]

  the wasp which I think just added sharon [TS]

  stone to the cast [TS]

  why not is a comparison that your dog [TS]

  was then so does have the the true the [TS]

  true extended Marvel interconnected [TS]

  universe that also includes only you [TS]

  where it may follows tony start all-star [TS]

  flash has a relationship somebody reboot [TS]

  boy says he's doing what what I what I [TS]

  loved about the pacing in this is that [TS]

  it didn't feel like an overstuffed movie [TS]

  to me it felt like when you went to the [TS]

  comic book store and you bought like [TS]

  five or six comics and you sat down and [TS]

  you just binge through all of them it it [TS]

  breaks down into these very nice scenes [TS]

  and set pieces and character moments and [TS]

  it just it felt like i was reading a set [TS]

  of comic books all once in a good way [TS]

  yeah yeah I was just the comic books [TS]

  that I cared the least about where the [TS]

  ones that the movie was titled after and [TS]

  following the good news is if you wait [TS]

  long enough it's like it's like it's [TS]

  like weather [TS]

  wait long enough and you'll just get [TS]

  something else and and in the unity it's [TS]

  like literally if you wait long enough [TS]

  it will come around it's you know not to [TS]

  bring back to Game of Thrones for a [TS]

  second but that is this sort of [TS]

  storytelling right which is we've got [TS]

  seven stories and we're going to tell [TS]

  you a little bit of each and keep [TS]

  rotating among them and they intersect [TS]

  because if there is an overarching story [TS]

  here I'm like Game of Thrones where they [TS]

  almost never intersect right so I I feel [TS]

  like that that's an advantage in a way [TS]

  it's like look at this scene boys you [TS]

  don't worry there's gonna be a scene [TS]

  with you know with black panther coming [TS]

  up and then after that we're gonna we're [TS]

  gonna go to a spider-man and you know [TS]

  it's like all right there's something [TS]

  new coming down the road if the scene [TS]

  boards you if you really don't like the [TS]

  Berlin Airport this is the movie for you [TS]

  it's like life sake i think but yeah [TS]

  whatever its German airports shot in [TS]

  Atlanta apparently confused movie was [TS]

  shot in Atlanta like Germany when I saw [TS]

  this I thought less of the civil war [TS]

  comics because basically they share a [TS]

  name and that's it but there's a series [TS]

  that took place in the late nineties [TS]

  storm watch where the premise was that [TS]

  the United Nations did in fact deploy [TS]

  superhero teams and the problem comes of [TS]

  course when the organization that [TS]

  deploys the team's becomes corrupt and [TS]

  so we've got to cook and will remain [TS]

  with when they went out the saucony [TS]

  accords and you're like yeah you guys [TS]

  will be a team & A panel will decide [TS]

  where to deploy and went to the play [TS]

  would have to play you i was like holy [TS]

  crap this is star much all over again [TS]

  they didn't make the civil war they [TS]

  store watch grant morrison should sue [TS]

  spam it's the UH and that's without the [TS]

  reality thing to which again you know I [TS]

  think yeah try to try to don't look at [TS]

  it too much because the what is the [TS]

  rabbi mean seriously the last captain [TS]

  america told us what happens and the [TS]

  first Avengers movie told us what [TS]

  happens when the group international [TS]

  group is in charge which is they become [TS]

  corrupt and kill everybody [TS]

  so don't know you and nerd and me got [TS]

  distracted by wondering you know exactly [TS]

  because it'd be like America's Got an [TS]

  arms race going on with all their [TS]

  super-powered beings and this movie kind [TS]

  of raises for me but doesn't answer the [TS]

  question [TS]

  so where are all the other metahumans [TS]

  why is the US metahuman go tramping all [TS]

  over the barrel yeah we're not want [TS]

  we're just Putin have some superheroes [TS]

  right well you know we've got so you've [TS]

  got two challahs who is apparently the [TS]

  latest in a long line of people who put [TS]

  on pants suits and protect this [TS]

  reclusive African nation within the MCU [TS]

  itself like one of the things that like [TS]

  the mini bring in the UN and the whole [TS]

  wide world I thought if it's a whole [TS]

  wide world [TS]

  how come it is that the only people who [TS]

  keep making trouble in it are either the [TS]

  adventures for based in the US or any [TS]

  one of a raft of Eastern European [TS]

  villain types who are trying to go up [TS]

  against the Avengers like why have we [TS]

  not seen any action anywhere else in a [TS]

  few what is involved [TS]

  why have we not been subject to a [TS]

  committee where are you sheets you know [TS]

  somebody like Brazil screaming about the [TS]

  superhero ok exactly this kid AT&T is [TS]

  your sense of at least i was i was [TS]

  thinkin like we got something really bad [TS]

  going on in Syria so let's end the [TS]

  Avengers yes we all agree in there and [TS]

  then the Russian person on the Security [TS]

  Council goes no we use our veto here [TS]

  it's like oh sorry can send them when [TS]

  they were gonna win it when they faked [TS]

  us out and made it like they were going [TS]

  to reawaken those five Soviet super [TS]

  soldiers I thought oh my God we're [TS]

  getting the Red Guard and which one of [TS]

  these is gonna turn into a giant bear [TS]

  that was a nice and we're gonna have [TS]

  some major for God's sake I thought that [TS]

  was a nice plot twists and and I guess [TS]

  we should talk about Zemo a little bit [TS]

  we mentioned him a little that his [TS]

  motivation here is revenge because his [TS]

  family was in Segovia and they died and [TS]

  his his goal is not to take over the [TS]

  world bwahahaha or anything like that it [TS]

  is literally just to kind of undercut [TS]

  the superheroes and and make them turn [TS]

  against each other as much as possible [TS]

  and just make life worse for them as [TS]

  much as you can and i really did I you [TS]

  know he's not supposed to be the big [TS]

  villain that the the conflict is between [TS]

  the characters he's just a catalyst more [TS]

  than anything else and a reason to get [TS]

  them on a plane to go where they need to [TS]

  go but i really liked that twist that we [TS]

  are you know we're led down the path of [TS]

  like oh he's this is his game plan he's [TS]

  gonna unearth the old winter soldiers [TS]

  and no no he hates them and think [TS]

  they're dangerous and kill them all [TS]

  I thought that was clever when they have [TS]

  been when they had a flashback of of the [TS]

  five other winter soldiers fighting [TS]

  everyone and I didn't recognize any of [TS]

  the actors [TS]

  they're not gonna be you're not gonna [TS]

  make it to the one that lingered on the [TS]

  one guy and I thought who that guy [TS]

  that's going to be the guy and then it [TS]

  wasn't know their alternate the thing [TS]

  that bothered me was emails plan was so [TS]

  complicated involuted to get all the [TS]

  pieces in the right place to get [TS]

  basically that then they're right at the [TS]

  end to have that fight to get Tony to [TS]

  make a decision to come to Siberia so he [TS]

  could play the video and exactly it was [TS]

  like he had written a whole series of [TS]

  interconnected comic books to lead [TS]

  everybody to well Tony also have a fedex [TS]

  package delivered by Stanley that was [TS]

  probably waiting for him back at his [TS]

  home base with a videotape of the same [TS]

  thing like cover all your bases maybe 40 [TS]

  mo yeah what came by UPS is a couple of [TS]

  days late or or if your intelligence [TS]

  agents on kill squad like this dude was [TS]

  like alright one of the lovers you push [TS]

  on these people [TS]

  yeah and it would not be hard to think [TS]

  okay Tony Stark plutocrat has got PTSD [TS]

  from watching people to get blown up [TS]

  saving him then gets held as a prisoner [TS]

  of war and then has survivor guilt from [TS]

  that and then gets turned to saving the [TS]

  world a few more times it seems like [TS]

  it's pretty obvious that Tony Stark at [TS]

  this point could could honestly you like [TS]

  a couple months off and some pretty [TS]

  intensive therapy you know maybe crafts [TS]

  therapy or clear clearly zeros entire [TS]

  plan although he does end up showing him [TS]

  videotape in Siberia is the most plan is [TS]

  really he did everything he does is to [TS]

  get access to the footage of Tony [TS]

  Stark's that parents being killed by by [TS]

  the winter soldier and so ultimately [TS]

  whether it's there somewhere else like [TS]

  I'm kind of serious like he was going to [TS]

  see that footage at some point and and [TS]

  Zemo knows that that is going to put him [TS]

  at at odds with cap and that's what he [TS]

  wants to do that's ultimately that's it [TS]

  really is like I know that this happened [TS]

  so that's going to be the trigger for [TS]

  toning the way the the brainwashing code [TS]

  book is for Bucky wow that's that's [TS]

  gonna rewire his brain as soon as he [TS]

  sees it [TS]

  yep and I did I like the the divergence [TS]

  the divergence from the traditional [TS]

  Baron Zemo [TS]

  the way that he appeared in the comics [TS]

  because we we actually got something [TS]

  that wasn't effectively you know the red [TS]

  skull in a pink jumpsuit [TS]

  yeah yeah little another superb not [TS]

  interesting supervillain yeah well i [TS]

  don't know i think progressive reinstall [TS]

  super interesting I I did live at the [TS]

  end that that it wasn't you killed my [TS]

  parents [TS]

  it's he killed my mom right that's what [TS]

  it is it's not it's not about Howard [TS]

  it's about his mom [TS]

  yeah that's true too that's that that's [TS]

  true they have everybody thinks feel of [TS]

  a having uh super super young route [TS]

  Robert Downey jr. at the beginning of [TS]

  the movie I dont still weird how [TS]

  increasing you're wrong i thought it was [TS]

  slightly it was better than you know [TS]

  that the sort of tron legacy type people [TS]

  and I thought it was a bit better maybe [TS]

  then the the ant-man stuff but it just I [TS]

  don't know there's something about it i [TS]

  mean it is the uncanny valley thing it [TS]

  is just that was all I liked it but they [TS]

  did have give themselves an outright [TS]

  which is like oh but this is actually [TS]

  just a hologram or something that he's [TS]

  showing on in his head talk i was [TS]

  waiting for the rest of the cast of less [TS]

  than 0 and back to school to come [TS]

  bouncing into it it's not fair by the [TS]

  way using Holograms in your TED talk [TS]

  totally not fair to the other presenters [TS]

  president ted talk it was an MIT talk [TS]

  what I'd be curious about is how [TS]

  somebody who did not actually watch [TS]

  Robert Downey jr. on screen when he was [TS]

  in their twenties like how they regarded [TS]

  this and reflected this because when my [TS]

  fourteen-year-old went bananas for it [TS]

  will see this is the thing is because [TS]

  when I want the whole time I was [TS]

  watching and I was trying to figure out [TS]

  where they're going like I was like did [TS]

  they based the footage off of home for [TS]

  the holidays so they base it off of one [TS]

  of the early nineties movies i was [TS]

  trying to figure out where they were [TS]

  they were they pulled the library of [TS]

  composite images because i remember [TS]

  seeing Robert Downey jr. in theaters at [TS]

  that age and I thought well if I didn't [TS]

  know any of this if I if I were 20 years [TS]

  younger with this it differently on my [TS]

  eyes like it's only weird to me because [TS]

  I remember him as a younger person you [TS]

  know and i think that's a question that [TS]

  probably asking a lot next year and one [TS]

  thing that was interesting is comparing [TS]

  this to aunt and last year with a man [TS]

  now you know Michael Douglas acting for [TS]

  years and all that [TS]

  when when young Michael Douglas walked [TS]

  in almost the entire room gasps yeah oh [TS]

  yeah and and with this [TS]

  not much of a reaction and it was it was [TS]

  still you know full of adults so it's [TS]

  not like it was just kids it wasn't you [TS]

  know but it was just sort of like of [TS]

  course Tony Stark would have young Tony [TS]

  Stark yeah sure [TS]

  so so when it with his TED talk thing [TS]

  will not talk [TS]

  he's he's got this like what was it [TS]

  so he had these glasses which seemed to [TS]

  be reading his mind to project has seen [TS]

  on to a pre existing template of like [TS]

  mapped piano and various other things on [TS]

  the set and he said and it's a device [TS]

  for hijacking the hippocampus to clear [TS]

  traumatic memories and I thought all [TS]

  he's built this you know [TS]

  hundred-million-dollar device for our [TS]

  that will help with traumatic memories [TS]

  that we perfect for Bucky later this all [TS]

  definitely hundred percent come on and [TS]

  then they just didn't mention it at all [TS]

  and it wasn't clear what it was whether [TS]

  he was just like he just wanted to see [TS]

  what this scene and make a fake version [TS]

  in the holiday so that you don't you [TS]

  know it was check archives dead parents [TS]

  space wrong yeah i mean it was I thought [TS]

  it was clear that the winter soldier had [TS]

  killed his parents from like the first [TS]

  or second scene i agree [TS]

  ok I wasn't a huge surprise on that on [TS]

  that topic winded captain america find [TS]

  out about this because he knows exactly [TS]

  Tony can transfer about it he said he [TS]

  didn't know he knew that I think he was [TS]

  implying that he knew that his parents [TS]

  had been killed and it wasn't an [TS]

  accident and hydros responsible but he [TS]

  didn't know it was Bucky at that point [TS]

  until he found out and yeah you probably [TS]

  didn't want to tell Tony because you [TS]

  don't want to find out who your parents [TS]

  were murdered by Hydra can we talk about [TS]

  the new characters are I want to talk [TS]

  about spider-man but why don't we start [TS]

  with a black panther when people think [TS]

  of of the Black Panther who we we see [TS]

  for the first time here and he sees [TS]

  getting a movie but chadwick boseman as [TS]

  to Charlie the king of Wakanda one of my [TS]

  one of my favorite comic series that got [TS]

  me back into comics in high school was [TS]

  the Black Panther run written by [TS]

  Christopher priest a priest a Cajun [TS]

  Owsley [TS]

  and the the feel of of two challenges [TS]

  Chaka and the whole Black Panther [TS]

  portion of the Marvel Universe feels [TS]

  like it is very brilliantly taken [TS]

  directly from from from from that is [TS]

  inspiration down to everyday Ross's a [TS]

  little bit different [TS]

  maybe a little bit different but but the [TS]

  child himself [TS]

  it just it showed up on the screen right [TS]

  off the page using the best materials [TS]

  available [TS]

  I couldn't be more happy that i liked it [TS]

  I liked everything about that the only [TS]

  thing that bothered me slightly was the [TS]

  like that the little musical sting that [TS]

  they used the kind of let me to pan [TS]

  flute noise like yeah we get it he's [TS]

  like the way he's from Africa [TS]

  yes African we were just like a point [TS]

  this out with the music in case you [TS]

  haven't picked up on the the sort of [TS]

  mystical African nature of it was being [TS]

  pushed a bit hard but i'm not going over [TS]

  the comics I don't know how whether they [TS]

  were just pulling that straight from the [TS]

  page but it was just that one musical [TS]

  note really was the entire thing that [TS]

  bothered me [TS]

  yeah i also have not read any of the [TS]

  comics but now i am very interested in [TS]

  this character so how how it you know [TS]

  however faithful they were our warranty [TS]

  i thought it really worked on the screen [TS]

  I thought Bozeman's performance was was [TS]

  fantastic and yeah I'm interested in [TS]

  seeing where this character goes [TS]

  David you said like make the movie now [TS]

  right insights on it's not for two years [TS]

  i think that the Black Panther movie [TS]

  comes out [TS]

  nope and I wanted this weekend I'm ready [TS]

  yeah I thought he was great I thought I [TS]

  thought chadwick boseman performance is [TS]

  fantastic i love that we see him first [TS]

  you know we first we see him as the [TS]

  prince in relation to his father [TS]

  we-we-we see that he is a you know he's [TS]

  a formidable person and then we're like [TS]

  oh and he has a cat costume with the [TS]

  vibranium claws and he runs around it's [TS]

  like I like that sequence of of like [TS]

  getting to know who he was and as a [TS]

  longtime comic reader i'm familiar with [TS]

  the character but i also really enjoyed [TS]

  my family especially my think my son [TS]

  probably knew but but my wife and my [TS]

  daughter didn't know and they were like [TS]

  he's awesome who is that what is that [TS]

  who is that guy right and and and i [TS]

  think a lot of audience members are like [TS]

  Erica to where it's like I don't know [TS]

  anything about this guy but he seems [TS]

  really great right i mean like you can [TS]

  see him being having his own movie it [TS]

  doesn't it's not one of those to try a [TS]

  little harder it's like no I want to see [TS]

  that movie with that guy [TS]

  yeah well there's no box checking about [TS]

  a 2 you've got you've got him as a [TS]

  different presence as a black superhero [TS]

  in addition to falcon in addition to war [TS]

  machine and it doesn't feel like like [TS]

  affirmative action move [TS]

  I you know something that I i see in [TS]

  movies where they're like by the way [TS]

  let's hang a lantern on this and let's [TS]

  be proud of how progressive we are this [TS]

  is a character that deserves to be in [TS]

  the movie because he's a character that [TS]

  deserves to be in the movie [TS]

  yeah I like that there were three black [TS]

  superheroes in the lineup yep yep i also [TS]

  want to see an entire movie about about [TS]

  to challenge that I don't know if she [TS]

  was his security person already got I [TS]

  thought it was exactly like home and [TS]

  just amazing that the one susong of of [TS]

  Black Panther nerding out that I'll do [TS]

  here is that woman is part of a group of [TS]

  our honor guards called the door in [TS]

  lingerie the adored ones that she [TS]

  ritualistically shave their heads and [TS]

  are are are exactly the type of people [TS]

  that you you really want that scene [TS]

  where they they have it they go [TS]

  toe-to-toe with the with black widow [TS]

  because they're absolute badasses so he [TS]

  basically has a team of wonder women [TS]

  that following around and make sure that [TS]

  he's safe [TS]

  I want that movie and Martin Freeman is [TS]

  playing a character who has connections [TS]

  to Black Panther right yeah he's kind of [TS]

  like like it like a UN Special Envoy [TS]

  bureaucrat jerk who's kind of a dip but [TS]

  is entertaining and and and fun as as as [TS]

  the personification of bureaucratic [TS]

  around six over the place for [TS]

  congratulations Martin Freeman you are [TS]

  the bureaucrats also so Ben when the [TS]

  chatroom pointed out and David also [TS]

  found in a briefing by alan sepinwall [TS]

  the scene in at the end of winter [TS]

  soldier where they're in the bunker with [TS]

  the computer of armed with Zola strongly [TS]

  suggest that Heydrich was responsible [TS]

  for the Starks dying and data record if [TS]

  not Bucky that's yeah that's what I [TS]

  thought it was clear the second movie [TS]

  that's that's what we're going to need [TS]

  that in winter soldier so so I'd I just [TS]

  forgotten that that was there and that's [TS]

  an example where there's a callback that [TS]

  everybody's like oh how did he know that [TS]

  the answer is it [TS]

  it's in another movie that you probably [TS]

  saw and just don't remember that scene [TS]

  words that asterisk saying go see issue [TS]

  yeah metalware Toby Jones says at [TS]

  accidents can happen or whatever is [TS]

  gonna happen in the computer didn't I [TS]

  can't wait to be a cybernetic robust [TS]

  with no head [TS]

  beep boop actually Jason that brings me [TS]

  back to be we mentioned you know do you [TS]

  have to see all of them and that kind of [TS]

  thing [TS]

  my wife has not seen the second captain [TS]

  america the second Avengers i think the [TS]

  most recent one [TS]

  she hasn't seen Thor to it hasn't even [TS]

  seen for one she's very few of the [TS]

  Marvel movies overall the most recent [TS]

  one she's always a man she enjoyed that [TS]

  and I'm actually really eager to take [TS]

  her to see this just to see if it bores [TS]

  the crap out of her or if it actually [TS]

  works pretty well on its own as a [TS]

  standalone thing because she's I mean [TS]

  she's energy stuff it's not like you [TS]

  know we don't have a bunch of Jurassic [TS]

  Park posters all over her living room [TS]

  but but I you know I really do wonder [TS]

  about things like that gasp where its [TS]

  people who maybe weren't paying [TS]

  attention to and watching movies three [TS]

  times each or maybe missed one along the [TS]

  way who didn't pick up on something I I [TS]

  I want to feel like this movie did a [TS]

  good enough job of introducing people [TS]

  who maybe maybe somebody doesn't know a [TS]

  particular character who's already been [TS]

  introduced name but they're able to pick [TS]

  up on what the relationship is with [TS]

  different characters because they do [TS]

  they do like a micro recap page with [TS]

  everybody where we get you know the clip [TS]

  saucony the clips from this the clips [TS]

  from this the this is where my life is I [TS]

  broke up with my girlfriend you know I'm [TS]

  looking for my friend and i was in World [TS]

  War two [TS]

  what we get we get a little bit of that [TS]

  stuff and I wonder if it's if it's [TS]

  helpful or if it's overwhelming [TS]

  I I thought they did a good job I mean [TS]

  obviously I've seen all the movies up to [TS]

  this point but yeah so I've got the [TS]

  background for these things but i think [TS]

  it I think it did a good enough job of [TS]

  do I mean I not perfect I mean if you're [TS]

  totally in the dark [TS]

  I love that they gave us they gave the [TS]

  audience credit of like what [TS]

  audience credit of like what [TS]

  think you'll be able to follow this but [TS]

  we're not going to do is say say oh your [TS]

  parents and then I like a [TS]

  black-and-white flashback scene with a [TS]

  backseat from a previous movie which I [TS]

  TV does a lot [TS]

  it's like now you know look either you [TS]

  do remember it or you'll go with it and [TS]

  we're just gonna move on and that this [TS]

  movie would have been just terrible if [TS]

  we had to keep on doing that I would [TS]

  love a footnote version though I think [TS]

  that would be hilarious [TS]

  yeah pop-up marvel cinematic universe [TS]

  that would be good that would be that [TS]

  would be really good [TS]

  um so spider-man can we can we talk i'm [TS]

  gonna let everybody else go first on [TS]

  spider-man and James gonna ruin it all [TS]

  at the end so what people think about [TS]

  the about spider-man week I think he [TS]

  does whatever a spider can [TS]

  it's true it is his website he was [TS]

  spinning they were of many sizes perhaps [TS]

  all the sizes he captured so we see Tony [TS]

  Stark shows up at peter parker's house [TS]

  and manage more is Marisa Tomei and may [TS]

  just keep getting younger and younger I [TS]

  just I just want to say he and aunt Mae [TS]

  are both the same age and he's playing [TS]

  like our favorite superhero and she's a [TS]

  super heroes and yeah that's depressing [TS]

  he's weirded out by how she's attractive [TS]

  at that age come on Tony Stark the same [TS]

  although although Tony Stark is kind of [TS]

  a pig is so i kinda get it and you know [TS]

  Aunt May and maybe being you think about [TS]

  it this way to she's peters and which [TS]

  means all she really needs to be is old [TS]

  enough to be his mom and P if Peter [TS]

  Parker's 15 then it's not reasonable [TS]

  that also means get Tony Stark's old [TS]

  enough to be his dad I think tony stark [TS]

  would never want to would admit to that [TS]

  right and he thinks of himself as much [TS]

  cooler and younger than that but you [TS]

  know he's not maybe he's cooler [TS]

  he's just not you know cinema instead of [TS]

  already robert w jr played the dad of [TS]

  i'm liking the actress but she pleased [TS]

  are seen before movies but what is her [TS]

  name [TS]

  kat dennings yeah there's a movie with [TS]

  Robert Downey jr. plays your dad about a [TS]

  father-daughter relationship so there's [TS]

  there's already like he's always seemed [TS]

  like the dad of the MCU to be precisely [TS]

  because he does carry himself like a [TS]

  dude who's in his mid-forties [TS]

  don't-don't-don't is 51 if if if he will [TS]

  if he was the father of Peter Parker [TS]

  he'd be an old dad ok and not even be [TS]

  it's like he's he's he's probably old [TS]

  enough to be his grandfather so I what [TS]

  I'm saying is let's let side but it's [TS]

  great it's great to see Marisa Tomei and [TS]

  may I i kind of am at liking how that [TS]

  the enemy is getting younger because I'm [TS]

  it does not have to be a very elderly [TS]

  person in fact it kinda doesn't make [TS]

  sense for her to be sickly and elderly [TS]

  accepting the comics where they've had [TS]

  Peter grow well Peter I've follow my [TS]

  heart [TS]

  oh I like the idea that i like it then [TS]

  the MCU like she ended up being Peters [TS]

  guardian and very young age after his [TS]

  parents were killed in an accident she [TS]

  never met uncle been so there isn't that [TS]

  guilt and Peter to become a superhero [TS]

  because he he grew up in an era where [TS]

  the Avengers you know where we're [TS]

  running grandpa's the streets when he [TS]

  was nine or ten and he's like I'm gonna [TS]

  do that it's the same reason people [TS]

  enlisted after nine eleven i'm sorry i'm [TS]

  still going to advocate for Ben Parker [TS]

  being played by jason alexander because [TS]

  that means every everyone saying I it [TS]

  means getting younger all the actresses [TS]

  playing at me you're getting younger [TS]

  well spider-man is much younger in this [TS]

  so it's okay exactly and I sense i would [TS]

  say i'm also I i think it's jarring for [TS]

  people who are used to the spider-man [TS]

  movies to think of spider-man is a kid [TS]

  instead of as a a you know basically an [TS]

  adult but when I'm your oldest Christian [TS]

  historically that that you know he [TS]

  started out as as this kid with powers [TS]

  and I think in the in the ultimate [TS]

  spider-man stories which are my favorite [TS]

  that this is exactly the dynamic which [TS]

  is there are a whole bunch of grown-ups [TS]

  superheroes and then there's this kid [TS]

  who spider-man and its kind of [TS]

  delightful so i like i like that that's [TS]

  what the dynamic is but i think that [TS]

  works well in the in the comics but you [TS]

  know in in these films with you know the [TS]

  idea of young we've had is like Wanda [TS]

  and elizabeth Olsen is 27 and she's [TS]

  playing you know late teens early [TS]

  twenties and Tom Holland is 19 but it [TS]

  looks about you know 13 ya termine stand [TS]

  and seeing that the the contrast between [TS]

  him and you know particularly Robert [TS]

  Downey jr. when Robert Downey jr. is [TS]

  bringing him into [TS]

  the fold and all this it just feels so [TS]

  wrong and child soldiers as well I wrote [TS]

  that in my notes as well it is it's not [TS]

  very clearly the tony is exploiting this [TS]

  kid I mean it's totally that's what's [TS]

  happening yeah i mean that the thought [TS]

  of that tight and a little bit i think i [TS]

  thought was kind of pulling his punches [TS]

  to when he fights with spider-man he's [TS]

  like look I don't know if you know this [TS]

  but there's not this much clipping and I [TS]

  might like I think he swings early on [TS]

  that he's fighting against the kid [TS]

  because you look at how the people on [TS]

  team captain deal with spider-man and [TS]

  it's mostly let's keep him contained and [TS]

  let's keep it while it's not doing [TS]

  serious damage and i'm pretty sure part [TS]

  of that is holy crap this is a kid [TS]

  yeah one and and steve has our [TS]

  conversation with him at the end of [TS]

  their fighting to you by thing when you [TS]

  see it as a photorealistic thing that [TS]

  it's sort of triggers different parts of [TS]

  your brain or the did for me anyway I [TS]

  really enjoyed watching him in the end [TS]

  but the way that he sort of bounced off [TS]

  the other characters was it was a little [TS]

  difficult for me because i would i would [TS]

  like to watch the Tom Holland spider-man [TS]

  movie I just felt like he was in a [TS]

  different movie and not in this one [TS]

  yeah and and you know that was the same [TS]

  to a certain extent with with ant-man [TS]

  but it wasn't quite as stark of a [TS]

  difference [TS]

  no star and because it is I felt like I [TS]

  felt like ant-man was a character who [TS]

  was visiting this movie from somewhere [TS]

  else and I felt like Spiderman was [TS]

  character who was just in his own movie [TS]

  and somehow we're seeing it through the [TS]

  lens of this film and it's stupid kids [TS]

  enjoyed it very much but it pulled me [TS]

  out of this movie every time it happened [TS]

  yeah if you would've told me that if you [TS]

  would have told me that they shot all of [TS]

  spider-man and Tony Stark scenes after [TS]

  they wrapped production on this movie I [TS]

  would've believed it because they just [TS]

  felt like they just jumped this this [TS]

  this new bits of scenes it's almost like [TS]

  you know when Suzanne Somers was holding [TS]

  out from Three's Company and that's what [TS]

  I had a phone in once a week to do is ok [TS]

  I've you gonna take in spider-man out of [TS]

  this film and it would've made a [TS]

  difference so on our production on a [TS]

  production note they bolted they bolted [TS]

  spider-man into the movie before they [TS]

  had the bones of the movie put together [TS]

  so I very much see that point for me [TS]

  what I feel like the movie benefited [TS]

  from by having [TS]

  this complete other movie complete other [TS]

  sensibility just kind of crash the party [TS]

  as it were is that where where the [TS]

  Marvel movies and I don't want to make [TS]

  this about a comparison of batman vs [TS]

  superman because i get enough people [TS]

  threatening to shoot me or whatever [TS]

  because i have a particular opinion but [TS]

  where the movie can go just nothing but [TS]

  green dark green dark green dark like in [TS]

  some ways the comic did you have [TS]

  spider-man ant-man both swing in and it [TS]

  kind of bring that levy brings the sense [TS]

  of you know this whole conflict is kind [TS]

  of ridiculous yeah and you got you [TS]

  Avengers are farmers and ya have it [TS]

  being a hero is not always just as sad [TS]

  as you guys make it seem to be I i agree [TS]

  like I liked ant-man for that but [TS]

  Spiderman was maybe a bridge too far [TS]

  CII love spider-man and living living [TS]

  with the smartest fourteen-year-old I [TS]

  was like oh that really sounds like a [TS]

  smart as fourteen-year-old yeah like the [TS]

  line where he goes that really old movie [TS]

  The Empire Strikes Back if it just been [TS]

  should have just been that old movie [TS]

  that would not have been plausible but [TS]

  as smart as 14 year old has has done [TS]

  that joke to me all the time yeah but [TS]

  you know that smartass support [TS]

  ten-year-old he's not brand-new with all [TS]

  these people that that are you know huge [TS]

  sort of stars to him and fight he's [TS]

  fighting possibly literally for his life [TS]

  I just if they would have left out the [TS]

  word really i would have been fine with [TS]

  it but instead that seems like a [TS]

  splinter in my brain and body and how [TS]

  much i just i don't think it would have [TS]

  been possible without it the reason that [TS]

  bothered me was I'm i was i was thinking [TS]

  oh yeah disney own style which is [TS]

  exactly what Arizona references is is [TS]

  like in the most recent there was the [TS]

  episode of the flash what he's [TS]

  referencing harry pottah was like oh [TS]

  yeah they're both warner brothers [TS]

  properties now [TS]

  yeah okay so I i like the spider-man [TS]

  spider-man's my favorite superhero and i [TS]

  liked it i don't disagree that it is not [TS]

  necessary for the movie I i do like the [TS]

  lightness of it I i like is it an ad for [TS]

  the reboot of spider-man next year [TS]

  sure it is but I'll tell you this it was [TS]

  a heck of an ad so I I didn't mind it at [TS]

  all [TS]

  i realized that i am a i was actually a [TS]

  little worried because the trailer [TS]

  didn't really inspire me in terms of how [TS]

  he drops [TS]

  and in there but seeing these scenes [TS]

  with Tom Holland I was like I really [TS]

  like this take on spider-man and I like [TS]

  how he you know how he looks in the end [TS]

  the fight scenes and I and being that [TS]

  that mouthy a smartass kid which i think [TS]

  is who spider-man should be so tonight [TS]

  if I CIA and I'm coming at this from not [TS]

  having actually read spider-man comics [TS]

  and only vaguely remembering the other [TS]

  movies and from his earlier scenes I [TS]

  didn't really get the smartass kid I got [TS]

  this sort of like bewildered kid that [TS]

  was like oh my god what is happening [TS]

  this is this is really cool I i read him [TS]

  is sort of enthusiastic and and you know [TS]

  not old but I didn't read him his mouth [TS]

  again sarcastic which is why those that [TS]

  line came out of nowhere for me he put [TS]

  on the mask and then all of a sudden he [TS]

  gets to he gets to overcompensate and [TS]

  feel like he's one of the grown-ups yeah [TS]

  yeah see I wish I would have gotten that [TS]

  from there but no he might be totally [TS]

  reminded me of them my my niece and [TS]

  several the girls that I used used to be [TS]

  a girl scout trip and they were tiny [TS]

  their high school seniors now I'm [TS]

  sunrise sunset and when they all started [TS]

  doing high school drama [TS]

  what was interesting to me was how [TS]

  effortlessly the code switch between who [TS]

  they were when they were in class [TS]

  whether they were like the the soccer [TS]

  kid or the band geek or whatever to who [TS]

  they were the minute they were in drama [TS]

  club and putting on these these for [TS]

  these roles on stage and it's kind of a [TS]

  kick to see one kid go from being this [TS]

  this some very quiet rules following you [TS]

  know front row student to playing this [TS]

  hand again as a a gleefully over-the-top [TS]

  busy woman on the make and that was kind [TS]

  of my impression with Peter Parker as [TS]

  spider-man 2 is I feel like his bravado [TS]

  was kind of him getting a chance to be [TS]

  who he thinks he is inside and it may [TS]

  have also been a little bit of [TS]

  adolescent protective coloration because [TS]

  you know once he starts fighting he [TS]

  knows he knows what he's capable of but [TS]

  there's also a level of holy crap up [TS]

  against ground to do this for a living [TS]

  and so I thought a lot of his running [TS]

  off his mouth was was part enthusiasm [TS]

  and part look at me look look look at me [TS]

  look at my peers are wow this is my [TS]

  heart nervous energy booth and maybe [TS]

  headcanon but you know which is why I'm [TS]

  looking forward to a spider-man movie [TS]

  because all of these things you guys are [TS]

  saying i'm making me not and go oh yeah [TS]

  that makes sense but they just didn't [TS]

  have time to build that all in and you [TS]

  know i'm old i don't know what that [TS]

  stuff i need ya help me [TS]

  yeah well that was my complete with most [TS]

  of the characters to you have to kind of [TS]

  either you have to bring in a whole lot [TS]

  of stuff like you know the black ones [TS]

  motivations can be explained with like [TS]

  three different scenes across three [TS]

  different movies but unless you remember [TS]

  those seams and you took an active [TS]

  interest in a character you're not going [TS]

  to taking taking as much of my headcanon [TS]

  helmet off as i can for me it's very [TS]

  much that acting out of a second persona [TS]

  where he's not the kid in in sweatpants [TS]

  and a homemade mask and goggles grabbing [TS]

  people out of the way of a car he's [TS]

  getting to play with the big kids and be [TS]

  with cool great uncle tony not Uncle [TS]

  Tony great uncle tony didn't open it and [TS]

  all the superheroes he seen on tv and [TS]

  holy crap oh man i'm up to this level [TS]

  and and it's it's just teenage over [TS]

  compensating to me the the thing that [TS]

  may be slightly uncomfortable and that [TS]

  was when you know and he's fighting with [TS]

  Captain America and he's like oh yeah [TS]

  Tony said you were going to say that and [TS]

  and you know he feels a bit not quite [TS]

  brainwashed but you know he's been [TS]

  clearly because you know tote Tony's [TS]

  giving him the city's giving ya off ya [TS]

  know is your sugar daddy and he said you [TS]

  up to this no I think that's all there [TS]

  and I think they do take a light hand [TS]

  with him and I think Steve talking to [TS]

  him the end is important and I think [TS]

  also it says something about Tony where [TS]

  he's like you're done right like he he's [TS]

  not gonna whether that's him rethinking [TS]

  order was like this the the action in [TS]

  the movie you're going to go on and yes [TS]

  i know they only have a minute so many [TS]

  scenes because he's got to go back into [TS]

  his own movie but I did like him saying [TS]

  kid you're you're done you know one [TS]

  maybe there's some regret their that he [TS]

  was even brought into this one another [TS]

  thing the difference between him as [TS]

  themselves and him in the suit is [TS]

  remember when he's first talking with [TS]

  Tony he talks about you know why do you [TS]

  want to have the dark goggles can you [TS]

  even see out of those things like it [TS]

  because my eyes are much more sensitive [TS]

  now I'm even more easily distracted and [TS]

  so when he's got the sudan he's more [TS]

  focused too hehe doesn't have the same [TS]

  kind of sensory input and the same sort [TS]

  of overload that he has [TS]

  as a regular teenage kid what I liked in [TS]

  this versus the other movies is that he [TS]

  was clearly very smart and you know he's [TS]

  Tony's like who who made your your web [TS]

  shooters or that kind of stuff and he's [TS]

  like well i did and you know he's [TS]

  obviously being set up to be you know [TS]

  maybe as smart as tony is down the line [TS]

  yeah yeah this is the first spider-man [TS]

  as much as I enjoyed to acquire this is [TS]

  the first time a spider man in film felt [TS]

  like spider-man to me yes we do i feel [TS]

  like the amazing spider-man Peter Parker [TS]

  was good but this this is the this is [TS]

  the closest the the both of the [TS]

  character I didn't I dig the [TS]

  characterization and my my thing which [TS]

  extends to you know I i love that we had [TS]

  three black superheroes that was great [TS]

  it be wonderful if Marvel knew that that [TS]

  latinos were perfectly willing to be [TS]

  superheroes as well [TS]

  asians also also work for that is we [TS]

  have lots of white ppl plantation [TS]

  superheroes with us buddy talking to and [TS]

  what yeah you know my thing my thing is [TS]

  you know with with the casting [TS]

  spider-man I i wish that they would have [TS]

  been comfortable even going biracial and [TS]

  not and i'm not saying oh they should [TS]

  use Miles Morales there are plenty of [TS]

  people who are advocating for that but I [TS]

  don't know if you just want to go with [TS]

  realism I if you look at queens today [TS]

  it's not it's not it's not very white [TS]

  not in the first place so that's just [TS]

  that's something that we we have had i [TS]

  think literally a dozen white Peter [TS]

  Parker's in live-action cartoons and we [TS]

  we could have we could have at least [TS]

  gone a little less white than the [TS]

  English wait not to be racist against [TS]

  the English [TS]

  I mean we'll have another rebate in five [TS]

  years of something yeah absolutely [TS]

  weight of the character of color we [TS]

  wouldn't need to reboot it so gosh darn [TS]

  it [TS]

  and while my hope is that given that the [TS]

  MCU keeps on stressing on into infinity [TS]

  that at some point Miles Morales is [TS]

  gonna come into this anyway which i'm ok [TS]

  with because i love that character too [TS]

  so I just kind of hoping that i was at [TS]

  one of the reasons i was excited about [TS]

  this very young spider-man is happily [TS]

  this opens the door for Kamala Khan yeah [TS]

  I mean such as your recruiting children [TS]

  to fight your battles now you may as [TS]

  well I cross gmail across the river to [TS]

  start its truest crime is his use of [TS]

  children as superheroes i love it it's [TS]

  so is and i'm wrong here's a question [TS]

  but that's bugging me since the first [TS]

  trailer came out and I've seen it [TS]

  cropping up more and more in the last [TS]

  week or so when Tony goes yo underoos so [TS]

  that means that underoos exist in the [TS]

  marvel cinematic universe is on them [TS]

  who's on them I pirate hat man and [TS]

  superman thank you and your personal Mii [TS]

  characters starting soon haha Star Wars [TS]

  characters [TS]

  yeah that's it we know that the in front [TS]

  of a really old movie so let's detail [TS]

  the two things that uh that I shouted [TS]

  John syracuse add me when I watch this [TS]

  movie one of them is that you know that [TS]

  apparently Peter like dumpster-dives and [TS]

  finds old Max or or goes to goes to a [TS]

  like a flea markets and finds old Max [TS]

  and fixes them up and mess around with [TS]

  its not smart enough to realize he could [TS]

  probably sell that thing for some decent [TS]

  coin that he will I think that maybe as [TS]

  part of his a little side business that [TS]

  we're going to learn about so that was a [TS]

  nice like classic Mac shoutout for John [TS]

  Syracuse and then of course the Empire [TS]

  Strikes Back reference which we can we [TS]

  can can and have debated whether that [TS]

  was a that was a little too much of the [TS]

  a really old movie but I thought that [TS]

  was a fun i thought it was a fun [TS]

  shorthand because everybody gets what [TS]

  they're saying they're about here's how [TS]

  we turned out here's how we get giant [TS]

  man to fall which was really nice and of [TS]

  course John siracusa interest rates back [TS]

  it's one of his favorite movie so so if [TS]

  he's not understand there is spider-man [TS]

  is around 14 then the Empire Strikes [TS]

  Back was over 20 years old before he was [TS]

  born [TS]

  yeah oh yeah so for him it is really old [TS]

  the art the argument I i think is that [TS]

  Erica thinks that was a little too far [TS]

  and David thinks that is exactly [TS]

  smart-assed enough for him so well I i [TS]

  completely agree i think i think that it [TS]

  was [TS]

  it was it was a battle tactic as much as [TS]

  it was him just being himself [TS]

  ok so we've got a little bit of time [TS]

  left and so my question before we go [TS]

  around and just add to a final overview [TS]

  of how everybody would rate this movie [TS]

  anything we should cover that we haven't [TS]

  I feel like we could all lot of ground [TS]

  here [TS]

  yeah we've covered at least seven [TS]

  stories sure one of the things i was [TS]

  told is that there are many many [TS]

  inconsistencies in all the German and [TS]

  uses of general i'm sure doing there [TS]

  the GSG 9 is German special forces that [TS]

  should have been the Austrian Special [TS]

  Forces and lots of James Murray into a [TS]

  German [TS]

  that's his secret a secret consultant on [TS]

  this who was just fuming about all these [TS]

  all these references so i have to be [TS]

  contractually good that's good i wanted [TS]

  to mention John Don Cheadle as ro/di [TS]

  interesting thing he does get he does [TS]

  get hurt although they show that Tony is [TS]

  like making him sort of a walking legs a [TS]

  walking suit at the end that's when we [TS]

  get the Tony stank line [TS]

  I like Don Cheadle uh it's funded that [TS]

  he still in these movies because thats [TS]

  like a character that they could have [TS]

  just ignored and it's nice to have a [TS]

  minute as another one [TS]

  I don't know if people saw the twitter [TS]

  exchange that he did I think yesterday [TS]

  where somebody asked why war machine [TS]

  doesn't have a little snarky Irish AI in [TS]

  his suit and he says I think you know [TS]

  the reason and somebody said what [TS]

  because Tony wants to keep all the good [TS]

  tech to himself and Don Cheadle's [TS]

  response was well I was gonna say racism [TS]

  but ok I love you but it was good to see [TS]

  him it was good to see him in the in the [TS]

  movie because I again I i think that's a [TS]

  fun character to have have a second you [TS]

  Iron Man suit and and that they didn't [TS]

  forget about him so and then he gets a [TS]

  little tiny very tiny story arc very [TS]

  tiny I was quite surprised they didn't [TS]

  kill him because me to this Fame seem to [TS]

  be setting up that somebody was gonna [TS]

  die okay so I'm gonna give a spoiler for [TS]

  the comic of Civil War and some of the [TS]

  spin-offs at the comic of civil war but [TS]

  i have to say my biggest surprise in [TS]

  this movie is yeah I thought they would [TS]

  kill captain america at the end of it [TS]

  and I know that Chris Evans is running [TS]

  out of his contract meet you and I [TS]

  really thought I thought it was sort of [TS]

  setup that was going to be the surprise [TS]

  at the end is that is that he's going [TS]

  take the shoe and Bucky would take the [TS]

  shield and I'm all I'm gonna say [TS]

  identifies himself pursue what instead [TS]

  what they decided was they want to make [TS]

  Avengers infinity war with chris evans [TS]

  and they're backing up the truck full of [TS]

  money to his house for those two movies [TS]

  well i think another part of it is that [TS]

  is that Evans has done a bunch of stuff [TS]

  that isn't marvel stuff while he was [TS]

  kind of grousing about how he felt like [TS]

  he should be getting paid more and its [TS]

  kind of paint one of the things that I [TS]

  don't know has filtered through the the [TS]

  chain is that apparently his big his big [TS]

  thing was he just really hated all the [TS]

  working out that he had to do and it was [TS]

  just it was a pain but then he's tried [TS]

  doing a bunch of stuff that isn't [TS]

  playing Captain America and he's kind of [TS]

  realized you know being captain america [TS]

  and so bad meal ticket now this could be [TS]

  worse [TS]

  so we may be yeah don't don't kill me [TS]

  off i think i'll resize I think I'll go [TS]

  guys [TS]

  I think like Robert Downey jr. they have [TS]

  both exhausted their contracts which [TS]

  means that Marvel has had two reup them [TS]

  by movie by movie for larger sums of [TS]

  money which is not a bad place to be if [TS]

  you're an actor right well Roma Downey [TS]

  jr. was saying this week he'd be out for [TS]

  a full flow ya lyin man phone like I do [TS]

  wonder at some point that their leverage [TS]

  is so their leverage is so great it [TS]

  it'll be I mean this is something to [TS]

  plant for five years from now but at [TS]

  some point the marvel cinematic universe [TS]

  is going to have to either continue [TS]

  without a lot of these key characters [TS]

  because they won't want to come back or [TS]

  because they're too old or they're going [TS]

  to have to sort of close it and then [TS]

  like start again and it'll be [TS]

  interesting to see how the movie [TS]

  franchise deal deals with this because [TS]

  like Star Wars can always kind of have [TS]

  this continuing story that pushes into [TS]

  the future but like you only get Tony [TS]

  stark/iron man this one time unless you [TS]

  reboot it for me what civil war [TS]

  accomplishes the best that other [TS]

  superhero movies of late have not is [TS]

  that it made it a big deal [TS]

  cool deal an event to go out to the [TS]

  movies with other people talk about it [TS]

  afterward like we're doing right now and [TS]

  just have fun and and you know even when [TS]

  dealing with sometimes dark or [TS]

  complicated or difficult subject matter [TS]

  you know find find a an underlying [TS]

  spirit of adventure and fun and [TS]

  the possible that gives us an escape [TS]

  from from everyday life and that's [TS]

  that's what they're continuing to crank [TS]

  out really well and i don't i don't see [TS]

  it [TS]

  stopping for them unless they decide [TS]

  they need to do six movies a year and [TS]

  not pay as much attention to them as [TS]

  they currently our team boy says is that [TS]

  Moyes is that what you have any more of [TS]

  your sort of final verdict that the [TS]

  movie because I'm moving into the final [TS]

  verdict of the movie phase that's the [TS]

  debt that's that's it alright if if if [TS]

  you're going to give me an avengers [TS]

  movie captain america movie and iron man [TS]

  movie a Black Panther movie and a [TS]

  co-stars movie all wrapped into one make [TS]

  it is coherent and give everybody as [TS]

  much of a reason to be on screen as as [TS]

  you give them in this movie [TS]

  this this is the thing that you should [TS]

  be trying to rip off in terms of dynamic [TS]

  if you if you are somebody that is [TS]

  trying to construct a narrative this [TS]

  complex David what your final verdict [TS]

  I really liked it it it i thought it [TS]

  held together better than the Avengers [TS]

  movies which I mean even the first one [TS]

  it took me three tries to get through it [TS]

  without falling asleep and i like it i [TS]

  do like it but I did keep falling asleep [TS]

  when an ultra was you know fine it had [TS]

  really fun moments that have really long [TS]

  boring moments this one I was engaged [TS]

  throughout i will i really enjoyed it [TS]

  Erica I enjoyed it was it was a fun [TS]

  experience of the theater didn't feel as [TS]

  long as it was which is a thing I was [TS]

  worried about i think it actually just [TS]

  makes me look forward to other Marvel [TS]

  Cinematic Universe movies more than [TS]

  going back to watch this again simply [TS]

  because like i said i didn't care about [TS]

  Bucky and I this movie actually like [TS]

  Steve before this movie and after this [TS]

  one I really don't like them so much [TS]

  anymore so I'm okay with his contract [TS]

  running out and then watching some other [TS]

  characters do some other things next [TS]

  time alright Steven I think it's it's [TS]

  one of my least favorite of the Marvel [TS]

  Universe movies actually because what [TS]

  Erika said there about me not liking cap [TS]

  very much and honestly the the endless [TS]

  fight scenes I knew there was going to [TS]

  be nothing resolved at them because [TS]

  they're friends fighting friends and no [TS]

  one's going to [TS]

  I and and I have to admit a little bit [TS]

  of concern just because they're they're [TS]

  having so many characters in their [TS]

  introducing new ones with Black Panther [TS]

  who I like Doctor Strange and a couple [TS]

  others I don't even know if in humans [TS]

  are coming and not even sure if that's [TS]

  on the board anymore it's not I'm just [TS]

  I'm just I'm just worried about the [TS]

  whole universe becoming stuff to the [TS]

  point where it just becomes unmanageable [TS]

  I don't read the comics i only know [TS]

  these characters to the movies when the [TS]

  Avengers was announced that everyone was [TS]

  going crazy i thought they're bringing [TS]

  back seat and Peele again I didn't know [TS]

  sochi watch the hell yeah they did it [TS]

  once it fail so I'm alive a little [TS]

  worried about how things are going to [TS]

  move into the future there were bits [TS]

  about this movie that i like but there's [TS]

  lots that I actually really didn't [TS]

  James well i mean i'd like to claim like [TS]

  so many good things that the film is [TS]

  partially Scottish because mark miller [TS]

  who wrote the original comic series [TS]

  lives somewhere next to my house and [TS]

  I've seen him around the streets here so [TS]

  I kind of feel like I have to like it on [TS]

  that ground but I think I came out of it [TS]

  and i really liked it and I thought it [TS]

  was significantly better than Ultron and [TS]

  then as I've so sat down and analyzed [TS]

  and taking a power I actually like it [TS]

  slightly less and I'll the thing that [TS]

  bothered me the most the two things [TS]

  about the most was spider-man who i [TS]

  really dislike the betrayal of and the [TS]

  fact that Robert Downey jr. was really [TS]

  unlikable to me for most of the movie [TS]

  but having said that i did enjoy right [TS]

  and Lisa well I love that big patriotic [TS]

  burrito so I now get google executive [TS]

  like a Dorito broad the short he is now [TS]

  we're and i thought this movie actually [TS]

  did very well by most of its characters [TS]

  um i have really mixed feelings about [TS]

  Bucky I like the relationship that cap [TS]

  has a lucky i've always had mixed [TS]

  feelings about how he's portrayed and [TS]

  how is cast so I got the color and I do [TS]

  think the movie got a little draggy once [TS]

  they move to Siberia but there was so [TS]

  much about this that was so smart and I [TS]

  think that the Russo brothers do a great [TS]

  job with the action sequences there [TS]

  they're just wonderful [TS]

  and there's a surprising amount of hard [TS]

  at the movie so I think this is probably [TS]

  my top three for the Marvel movies if i [TS]

  had to write them and I'm really looking [TS]

  forward to going back and seeing it [TS]

  again [TS]

  yeah I I liked it a lot uh they're like [TS]

  James the more I thought about some of [TS]

  the things in it the more I i saw sort [TS]

  of the scenes of it but in the moment I [TS]

  appreciated it [TS]

  I said a lot about the Avengers movies [TS]

  that i sometimes I grade the Avengers [TS]

  movies based on what they're being asked [TS]

  to do which is a lot of franchise work [TS]

  and servicing lots of characters which [TS]

  is very hard to do in in a good way at [TS]

  all and i think that the Avengers movies [TS]

  both did that but especially the first [TS]

  one you could see the strain but it [TS]

  managed to keep it all as i thought the [TS]

  first Avengers movie was gonna be a [TS]

  disaster and the fact that it was not a [TS]

  disaster is is impressive [TS]

  this movie has to do that too it's not [TS]

  it is Captain America movie in some ways [TS]

  but it's really doing the job of the [TS]

  Avengers movies which is too without you [TS]

  uphold the franchise introduce new [TS]

  characters and not every Marvel movie [TS]

  was like this it would be a terrible [TS]

  series but there are lots of stand-alone [TS]

  movies and then there's movies where [TS]

  everybody gets to play together and I [TS]

  think you did a good job I because it [TS]

  was it was stuffed but I felt like it [TS]

  did a good job with all of the different [TS]

  things that were stuffed into it and the [TS]

  Russo brothers did such a good job with [TS]

  civil war are with a winter soldier I [TS]

  think they did I don't think this is as [TS]

  good a movie is winter soldier is but i [TS]

  think i would have been hard to do [TS]

  because it's not as as streamlined as [TS]

  even that movie it because it is just [TS]

  full of all this stuff but i think they [TS]

  did I think they did a good job I I [TS]

  definitely came out of it for me [TS]

  sometimes the litmus test is do i do I [TS]

  leave the movie theater and sometime [TS]

  over the next 12 hours think of man i [TS]

  wish i could go watch it again and i [TS]

  actually did feel that for this movie so [TS]

  I guess I i will give it a thumb up i [TS]

  don't know where it fits in the in the [TS]

  list all right well uh the civil wars in [TS]

  the books I i guess uh oh and uh [TS]

  that we've talked to see what's it about [TS]

  war anyway well if only there were more [TS]

  Canadians involved would be much more [TS]

  simple as what I'm saying i'd like to [TS]

  thank my guests for being here [TS]

  Lisa schmeiser thank you thank you this [TS]

  is a lot of fun Moises to yawn thank you [TS]

  very much for being here [TS]

  I don't care if David lord thank you [TS]

  thank you I I could do this all day [TS]

  james thompson thanks james thompson [TS]

  will return 0 blue Eric and sign the [TS]

  only Lana can remember is I hate you but [TS]

  that sounds so meaty thank you [TS]

  how about and does stephen Japan's he [TS]

  can you slide that see forward a little [TS]

  bit i know the only hope I only hope [TS]

  that Stanley has one cameo at least left [TS]

  in him so that his last words spoken in [TS]

  a Marvel film aren't Tony stink my i [TS]

  hope the motion capture him so he's in [TS]

  all the movies and now on now [TS]

  probably so alright thanks everybody for [TS]

  listening to this flash episode about [TS]

  captain america civil war we will see [TS]

  you next week with episode number 300 [TS]

  [Music] [TS]