The Incomparable

23: Origin Story


  the incomparable time test number 20 [TS]

  really everybody 2011 [TS]

  we're back on the incomparable podcast [TS]

  the topic today is movies and we're [TS]

  going to talk about superhero movies [TS]

  there was a time when there were not [TS]

  very many superhero movies at all at [TS]

  that time is not the last 10 years when [TS]

  there's been a horrible horrible glut of [TS]

  them [TS]

  we're going to talk about superhero [TS]

  movies that we love the ones that we [TS]

  hate once we think are overrated and [TS]

  underrated and two to help me down this [TS]

  path to the land of Metropolis and other [TS]

  strange fictional superhero cities i am [TS]

  joined by my guess [TS]

  ben boychuk coming to you live from my [TS]

  secret lair somewhere in southern [TS]

  california [TS]

  nice nice John siracusa I am ready you [TS]

  are ready to you are you wearing a a an [TS]

  outfit superhero pajamas yes alright [TS]

  excellent and and serenity caldwell who [TS]

  is not wearing a cape because capes are [TS]

  terrible no capes no capes they're [TS]

  dangerous they're not just terrible [TS]

  they're dangerous they are [TS]

  it makes me wonder actually the wisdom [TS]

  of NBC doing a show called the Cape when [TS]

  it had already been established no capes [TS]

  I thought we weren't supposed to talk [TS]

  about that let's not never do whatever [TS]

  you got a real show [TS]

  don't mention the Cape that's for the TV [TS]

  podcast although somebody would actually [TS]

  have to watch it and talk about it [TS]

  I've got scared off by how terrible the [TS]

  comments about it works so i didn't [TS]

  watch it [TS]

  who so I'd like to start on a on a [TS]

  negative note because that's that's just [TS]

  the way i roll and talk about movies [TS]

  that we think are overrated superhero [TS]

  movies movies that you're tired of [TS]

  hearing how good they are and that you [TS]

  personally have some issues issues with [TS]

  and think that we should appreciate them [TS]

  quite so much John I'm gonna I'm gonna [TS]

  look to you to help kick this off on a [TS]

  negative note that's a big mistake [TS]

  because all my choices are going to be [TS]

  the same as your choices so every one of [TS]

  these things you let me go first started [TS]

  this before you are not going to steal [TS]

  all your answers that's fine i'm i'm the [TS]

  host i can just lean back and enjoy you [TS]

  agreeing re yeah so i'm gonna steal your [TS]

  answer for this one because you've [TS]

  already talked about it and [TS]

  I totally agree overrated as the dark [TS]

  knight not because it's such a terrible [TS]

  movie because it wasn't terrible but [TS]

  because it's god I think it's got the [TS]

  superhero movie equivalent of second [TS]

  system syndrome [TS]

  I don't know if you know that as well as [TS]

  a computer term for you make the first [TS]

  one and you went after you've made the [TS]

  first one the people who made it realize [TS]

  all the mistakes they made and all all [TS]

  the shortcuts they had to take the [TS]

  limitations that are inherent in it and [TS]

  when they get a chance to make a second [TS]

  one they say we're not going to make any [TS]

  of those mistakes right we're going to [TS]

  fix all the things we couldn't do before [TS]

  put everything in it didn't fit that we [TS]

  ran out of time for and just ends up [TS]

  with everything in the kitchen sink [TS]

  inside it and that's kind of like what [TS]

  the dark knight is it's a superhero [TS]

  movie that tries to have everything in [TS]

  it you know great acting dramatic fight [TS]

  scenes amazing villain and every [TS]

  possible scenario you can imagine for [TS]

  the villain to go in a you know a love [TS]

  story the loss of a main character [TS]

  revenge and it just it just ends up [TS]

  being too much the dark knight is a [TS]

  great great movie for about sixty [TS]

  percent and then it just doesn't end it [TS]

  keeps going keeps trying to have more [TS]

  and it it goes off the rails at the end [TS]

  I don't wanna I don't wanna draw a [TS]

  parallel between the dark knight and [TS]

  batman returns the second of the tim [TS]

  burton Batman's which is a far better [TS]

  returns far inferior to the dark knight [TS]

  i would say the dark knight is a good [TS]

  movie it's just horribly overrated but [TS]

  they are similar in that both of them [TS]

  the first movie was successful had a lot [TS]

  of constraints that I think may have [TS]

  made them successful and then they took [TS]

  all the constraints off and and the with [TS]

  batman returns it was really like okay [TS]

  well we made Tim Burton act like a [TS]

  grown-up he made a good movie now will [TS]

  let him do whatever the hell he wants [TS]

  oh god he made he's made something [TS]

  atrocious [TS]

  not to mention the fact that that why is [TS]

  it that superhero movie franchises feel [TS]

  that once a movie is successful the best [TS]

  way to do a sequel is by multiplying the [TS]

  number of villains in it by a factor of [TS]

  three [TS]

  Oh God well the doctor i didn't have [TS]

  that problem with the multiple going [TS]

  well I could have Harvey to there's any [TS]

  of this stuff comes at the end which is [TS]

  in my mind the worst part of that movie [TS]

  is whether it was [TS]

  nowhere for me to always try is trying [TS]

  to lead into the next movie with my [TS]

  biggest complaints are they like the [TS]

  fairy scene and the sort of little [TS]

  brother moralizing those two bits didn't [TS]

  need to be in that movie a fairy stone i [TS]

  think is terrible and that's actually [TS]

  happening simultaneously with another [TS]

  scene that is bad which is Batman gets [TS]

  equipped morgan freeman equips Batman [TS]

  with his his bat radar right his [TS]

  ballerina already goes into a tall [TS]

  building and he's trying to fight bad [TS]

  guys in this tall building and it's one [TS]

  of the most incompetently put together [TS]

  action scenes I've ever seen in a major [TS]

  movie you at no point do you really [TS]

  understand what's going on [TS]

  you completely lose track it sort of [TS]

  transformers level of confusion and it's [TS]

  a shame because again if somebody come [TS]

  in and said no no this is too much [TS]

  you've got a great movie here if we chop [TS]

  off most of the last 30 minutes or 45 [TS]

  minutes it would be a much better movie [TS]

  than it is [TS]

  yeah because it starts really strong and [TS]

  it's focused and strong and dramatic i [TS]

  think the worst decision was that they [TS]

  tried to make me the big dramatic thing [TS]

  that happens in the final act is bad [TS]

  one of the things is not a problem is 10 [TS]

  different things that happened the final [TS]

  actress Batman rejecting the idea of [TS]

  spying on the citizenry you know I'll do [TS]

  it this once but you have to burn the [TS]

  computers down when you're done already [TS]

  know and his and his faithful helper [TS]

  almost you know threatens to quit [TS]

  because of this great decision like no [TS]

  one cares about this this is not of [TS]

  Batman's world [TS]

  I don't care about Batman spies on his [TS]

  to fight the bad guys it's just kind of [TS]

  shoved in there where you least expect [TS]

  it's like oh he's built this giant [TS]

  computer system that what it does it [TS]

  connect into cell phones or something [TS]

  like that it was something [TS]

  yes yes something ridiculous i have to [TS]

  admit i only saw the dark night I saw it [TS]

  at midnight when it first came out [TS]

  because back like a couple years back I [TS]

  was on this big dick or it's like all [TS]

  the superhero movies you see it at [TS]

  midnight you see it with a good crowd [TS]

  it's just fun and I remember going into [TS]

  it being really psyched because i like [TS]

  Christian Bale and I like you know I'd [TS]

  like Christopher Nolan I like good good [TS]

  value vibes right and then yeah halfway [TS]

  through the film it just completely [TS]

  falls apart where you just you know I [TS]

  was sitting there and I actually looked [TS]

  at my watch at one point in time and I [TS]

  have where are you going with this [TS]

  christopher nolan why why is this [TS]

  suddenly you know you start off with [TS]

  strong characters and then just kind of [TS]

  Peters out 20 i guess i guess they're [TS]

  trapped in a warehouse that may explode [TS]

  the gender but yeah a snake the Joker by [TS]

  far the most important thing in this [TS]

  movie by far the most successful thing [TS]

  in the movie and m is it any coincidence [TS]

  that the Joker kind of moves off stage [TS]

  at that whole point where the movie [TS]

  falls apart and I don't think I think [TS]

  it's that did they just lost their way [TS]

  and it's just that make it about the [TS]

  Joker in Batman don't make it about [TS]

  Morgan Freeman's inventions and the [TS]

  computer computers spying on the people [TS]

  of Gotham City and they this sort of [TS]

  kind of ridiculous boat thing that was a [TS]

  weird love triangle story which is like [TS]

  it's like they started another movie in [TS]

  the middle of this 10 yeah they did [TS]

  there's two faces already and i remember [TS]

  watching thinking wait a second I'm [TS]

  gonna go for another three hours i'm not [TS]

  doing their starting another movie I [TS]

  don't care about that movie what [TS]

  happened to the Joker movie this is the [TS]

  movie they should've called Batman [TS]

  Forever i did like the dark knight [TS]

  probably better than the rest of you but [TS]

  one thing that did bother me about it [TS]

  and this was one of the things that [TS]

  actually praised was the the the [TS]

  location [TS]

  I I actually preferred the first movie [TS]

  just the first movie visually that you [TS]

  know this because Gotham was this [TS]

  manufactured place and that you know i [TS]

  have these wonderful old straining to [TS]

  these like that Batman Begins Batman [TS]

  Begins yeah and-and-and dark knight was [TS]

  it is said in Chicago obviously said in [TS]

  chicago and and all these locations that [TS]

  you know about and that X it sort of [TS]

  took me out of the movie a little bit in [TS]

  a strange way you know say oh I i know [TS]

  that building and it where whereas the [TS]

  first movie it was is it was you were [TS]

  immersed in in this in this particular [TS]

  world and so that was the one that was [TS]

  the one that really troubled me about [TS]

  the dark knight not so much the boat the [TS]

  ferryboat thing but the location what [TS]

  had kind of an ethereal quality to it [TS]

  Batman Begins the whole universe like [TS]

  you think about the end like the climax [TS]

  of batman begins where it's God the [TS]

  trains going to cry [TS]

  actually the water tower but you like I [TS]

  when I picture the scene and in my head [TS]

  I see very like sepia foggy like really [TS]

  really kind of cool in-depth stuff that [TS]

  you'd see in a video gamer in your head [TS]

  when you're reading a good book or in a [TS]

  comic page and I feel like with the dark [TS]

  knight they cut they went very gritty [TS]

  and it turned very oh this is a [TS]

  superhero movie but it's a real man [TS]

  superhero movie you know if that makes [TS]

  sense [TS]

  yeah yeah I i should say i think all of [TS]

  us could probably say some positive [TS]

  things about about the dark knight and I [TS]

  don't think we're saying it's [TS]

  necessarily a bad movie upon out i think [TS]

  yeah I would say the highs of the dark [TS]

  knight are among the highest highs of [TS]

  any superhero movies I've seen it had [TS]

  some great peaks and that's what makes [TS]

  it a kind of a crying shame and that's [TS]

  what makes it a tragedy and it's [TS]

  overrated because i think the general [TS]

  public is dazzled by the highs and is [TS]

  not as critical of the weaker parts they [TS]

  may have been pummeled into submission [TS]

  by the time we got two hours in two [TS]

  really are they fell asleep [TS]

  yeah especially when he was looking for [TS]

  watching it said 2 a.m. [TS]

  that's why you were looking at your [TS]

  watch more like three huh yeah yeah [TS]

  alright so we beatin up on Batman enough [TS]

  there will be enough they'll be a third [TS]

  how many villains I wonder what happened [TS]

  that one [TS]

  oh gosh 26 that's right excellent just a [TS]

  rogue's gallery the whole rogue's [TS]

  gallery killer croc the whole bit yeah [TS]

  in terms of there's a another movie that [TS]

  I kind of associate with the with the [TS]

  batman returns and dark night and all [TS]

  that and that spider-man three men three [TS]

  yet which got I mean was more critically [TS]

  reviled the narrative night for sure but [TS]

  I would call that over it can't be you [TS]

  want to know if everybody talks think [TS]

  it's terrible but it's just it's that's [TS]

  another film that suffers from the [TS]

  multiple villainville and and random too [TS]

  long for its own good randomly goes into [TS]

  email musical sequence in the middlelike [TS]

  it said because again i think there [TS]

  probably was a good movie in there if [TS]

  they had focused on a couple of things [TS]

  that they have focused on Harry becoming [TS]

  kind of the Hobgoblin or or I pic pick [TS]

  one villain right pick venom i mean i'm [TS]

  not a big fan of venom but or or the [TS]

  Sandman or orally everybody [TS]

  but it's just all mashed together there [TS]

  and and in a way and the venom story [TS]

  doesn't really work when it's kind of [TS]

  retro red card into this weird a meteor [TS]

  happens to hit Peters bike huh [TS]

  ok surprise well it's just a shame [TS]

  because spider-man 2 i considered for a [TS]

  long time one of like my top new [TS]

  superhero movies and then to kind of get [TS]

  it all crashed down with spider-man 3 [TS]

  was just depressing the same you didn't [TS]

  have a category for superhero movies [TS]

  that you like don't like it all because [TS]

  you've got favorite underrated overrated [TS]

  but Superman Superman spider-man just [TS]

  never connected with me like the the [TS]

  first [TS]

  yeah the field all of them that just a [TS]

  spider-man care about x 3 came along I [TS]

  couldn't care less about spider-man but [TS]

  the first movie for like the first half [TS]

  hour when they were doing that origin [TS]

  the first half-hour spider-like yes [TS]

  exactly spider-man movie I want to [TS]

  manage it just lost me I don't think [TS]

  it's any fault of the movie here i don't [TS]

  know maybe I'm just not a spider and guy [TS]

  but the franchise and the movie never [TS]

  really connected with me I recognize the [TS]

  spider-man one or two or reasonably good [TS]

  movies in spider-man 3 is not a good [TS]

  movie but none of them like they just [TS]

  don't do it for me I don't know why [TS]

  especially since I was so into it and [TS]

  excited for the first half an hour 40 [TS]

  minutes of spider-man 1 [TS]

  yeah I watch them again and see why that [TS]

  is I think I think the first butter [TS]

  man's got highs and lows and and I I [TS]

  like it but in many ways i'm giving it I [TS]

  I feel like I give it a little bit of a [TS]

  critical pass because i like the source [TS]

  material so much [TS]

  the second 1i i actually liked a lot [TS]

  better although the reason that I what I [TS]

  keep telling people about spider-man 2 [TS]

  is spider-man 2 is a movie about a guy [TS]

  and it's about his problems in his life [TS]

  it's not a superhero movie in many ways [TS]

  it's a bit movie about a guy in his life [TS]

  except it turns out the guy has [TS]

  superpowers and it's kind of a superhero [TS]

  at it because that's how that movie is [TS]

  told it's it's really weird but I love [TS]

  it I do think it's in my top five at [TS]

  least superhero movement that that's [TS]

  kind of a spider-man thing is it happen [TS]

  it is more of it you know that whatever [TS]

  happens about it's not about [TS]

  supervillains in origins and stuff like [TS]

  that it's more about the boys troubles [TS]

  reputable workers more interested [TS]

  interesting than spider-man whereas [TS]

  Batman this way more interesting than [TS]

  Bruce wing [TS]

  yeah no one cares about Bruce Wayne and [TS]

  neither Clark kent/superman interesting [TS]

  right then what do you have for us in [TS]

  the in the negative category [TS]

  you have something well overrated [TS]

  category yes yeah Superman to would be [TS]

  my pick [TS]

  that would be the 1980s Superman to in [TS]

  which Christopher Reeve Superman [TS]

  experiences is dark knight or yes dark [TS]

  night of the soul [TS]

  i I didn't intend for that but that's [TS]

  just sort of slipped out you know and i [TS]

  think my and again this is I mean that [TS]

  this was kind of hailed as you know [TS]

  you're the first movie was like this [TS]

  breakthrough film and you know [TS]

  yeah you'll believe a man can fly and i [TS]

  remember seeing that when i was a kid [TS]

  and coming home from the from the from [TS]

  the movie with my mom and seeing a guy [TS]

  on a hang glider that I mean just right [TS]

  after the film and going oh my god that [TS]

  Superman and this guy and and you know [TS]

  in seeing Superman to the first time you [TS]

  know i was i was nine or ten years old [TS]

  and and thinking wow this is this is [TS]

  pretty deep problem i think maybe is [TS]

  that maybe just doesn't hold up very [TS]

  well and and it may not hold up very [TS]

  well for a variety of reasons you know [TS]

  it's you know it 1980 is really not the [TS]

  eighties yet it's still the seventies [TS]

  so you still have that sort of seventies [TS]

  campina see christopher reeve was not a [TS]

  great Superman i think in retrospect and [TS]

  although the conflict with you know [TS]

  General Zod and and you know Terence [TS]

  Stamp is great all that you know the [TS]

  dark night of the soul stuff looking [TS]

  back at it now if you to watch it now [TS]

  it's kind of silly it's kind of you know [TS]

  this is the you know the source end of [TS]

  the seventies me decade stuff in it and [TS]

  it really just it's it's a bit [TS]

  embarrassing in places and so as cool as [TS]

  it was to see at the time for me it just [TS]

  in retrospect it just doesn't really [TS]

  hold up as well that's a movie that got [TS]

  kind of messed up by the studio to write [TS]

  they had the richard donner directed [TS]

  some of that they fired and replaced [TS]

  with the guy who did a hard day's night [TS]

  it [TS]

  strange that's right that's right well [TS]

  i'm curious to hear what the others have [TS]

  to think about to say about this because [TS]

  I mean Superman to I always sort of [TS]

  heresy ranks and yeah i was still the [TS]

  man dog in the top five of you know of [TS]

  these all-time great super Superman or [TS]

  superhero films but i don't know i i've [TS]

  watched it again probably a year ago and [TS]

  and and that was I was kind of left with [TS]

  that sort of bad impression I mean [TS]

  everybody has a lot of good stuff going [TS]

  for it that's the thing i mean you know [TS]

  gene hackman at his you know [TS]

  over-the-top finest and net baby's great [TS]

  in it and you know there's there's [TS]

  there's a lot to lot to be said for it [TS]

  but i don't know i think i think it [TS]

  suffers from the era in which it was [TS]

  made a kind of Moby Superman at the [TS]

  fortress of solitude and then the sort [TS]

  of mopey Clark gives up his superpowers [TS]

  to be with Louis which I never really [TS]

  understood that right yeah yeah yeah it [TS]

  was kind of like a shambling monster but [TS]

  it's another example of Superman movie [TS]

  that our superhero movie they got away [TS]

  from itself by adding too much stuff [TS]

  because think of all the things we [TS]

  describe that happened in this movie [TS]

  this these guys from what is that the [TS]

  negative zone or whatever it's called [TS]

  yeah Phantom Zone I mm fans on there you [TS]

  go I'm and so they're the they're that [TS]

  thread but then there's the you know I [TS]

  want to be with Louis to get my powers [TS]

  thread and like and as lex luthor [TS]

  running around it was should be the big [TS]

  villain because the secondary villain [TS]

  and then he's got a sidekick guy and [TS]

  it's a lot of stuff and like 70 movies [TS]

  is kind of like slow paced and spread [TS]

  out and the individual scenes are our [TS]

  hookey and it's it's just kind of a big [TS]

  shambling mess i don't have that I [TS]

  didn't know was so highly regarded i [TS]

  would not have put it very high up in [TS]

  and my rankings of of superhero movies [TS]

  maybe people just like the Phantom Zone [TS]

  guys I don't know well I think there's a [TS]

  lot of nostalgia for it and then it's [TS]

  very quotable you know kneel before Zod [TS]

  and all that but yeah I mean we'll [TS]

  remember Terence Stamp i think yeah yeah [TS]

  yeah that's yeah I remember the outfits [TS]

  the black jumpsuits [TS]

  post and memory more than any other [TS]

  scene and although it's not the movie or [TS]

  he gets angry and flicks a peanut at a [TS]

  bottle or window and breaks it wasn't [TS]

  three [TS]

  I don't know I don't remember i'm [TS]

  betting it was worth it he was like [TS]

  turning evil and drinking beer and not [TS]

  shaving oh that is for that too [TS]

  that's one of the the movie so bad that [TS]

  people haven't even seen them [TS]

  yeah I tried to erase them from our [TS]

  memories Superman for see if we if we [TS]

  went to the lower streak was worst yeah [TS]

  we're superhero movies flat out of all [TS]

  time that Superman for the quest for [TS]

  peace but I think you guys might be in [TS]

  the list but we shouldn't talk about [TS]

  that either no no no no don't why beat [TS]

  YB down the already down movies I really [TS]

  what's the point the horses there five [TS]

  was there Superman five before they [TS]

  rebooted no no Superman for was the last [TS]

  one and then they and then they came out [TS]

  with Superman Returns which was actually [TS]

  a sequel to Super Man 2 which was very [TS]

  strange and I don't think I wanted to [TS]

  not because we wanted to forget about [TS]

  Richard Pryor and we've got to forget [TS]

  about the horrible scene of the widest [TS]

  variety younger when Superman to and [TS]

  returns magic because they recast the [TS]

  part with the Sun he spent some time in [TS]

  a red Sun right I i don't i don't know i [TS]

  don't think i don't think superman [TS]

  returns was necessarily a bad movie I [TS]

  just thought it was kind of mediocre it [TS]

  wasn't interesting i think that was the [TS]

  problem is girls just kind of there i [TS]

  think i've had some good [TS]

  Superman action scenes the one where [TS]

  he's saving the plane crashing it as a [TS]

  standalone Superman action scene that's [TS]

  probably the most interested I've been [TS]

  in a super an action scene in any of the [TS]

  movies just because I thought it was a [TS]

  interesting thing for him to do but the [TS]

  movie surrounding it was yeah i like the [TS]

  idea that he has a kid I thought that [TS]

  was kind of a bold choice to like [TS]

  totally break away from my comic book [TS]

  continuity and just say what if Louis [TS]

  had a kid and it was time around the [TS]

  same reason there's not any more [TS]

  Superman Returns movies they did all [TS]

  that and people were like yeah don't [TS]

  know about that and so we're just taking [TS]

  our regard be getting we're getting a [TS]

  reboot of the reboot doing as I'm saying [TS]

  like I have thought they were going to [TS]

  reboot into a series of Superman [TS]

  resided once and another reason name is [TS]

  the kind of didn't reboot though they [TS]

  just kind of soft restarts from this [TS]

  from person to person who did this [TS]

  he didn't he did Superman Returns and [TS]

  now it's like to be left the x-men and [TS]

  and when you have to Superman because it [TS]

  seemed like going for the brass ring [TS]

  like finally I get to do Superman it's [TS]

  like just stuck with x-men you doing one [TS]

  better there [TS]

  I don't know much better as a strong [TS]

  word for the x-men x-men 2 is pretty [TS]

  great [TS]

  yes x-men three on the other hand had [TS]

  problems not be spoken up the second one [TS]

  has nuanced and again it's more about [TS]

  the characters than it is about the [TS]

  overarching oh god bad things are [TS]

  happening if that better than the first [TS]

  one which was it's funny we talk about [TS]

  movies where there was the first one [TS]

  that was good and they sort of screwed [TS]

  up with a second one [TS]

  x-men I think they kind of screwed up [TS]

  the first one got it right with the [TS]

  second one person was kind of dorky but [TS]

  the first one started strong the first [TS]

  one was the one that starts with I the [TS]

  magneto Holocaust scene right right that [TS]

  was that's the that's the way you open [TS]

  an x-men franchise the movies and the [TS]

  rest of the week kind of was dorky and [TS]

  hokey and so a formula and they didn't [TS]

  live up to that first scene so you can [TS]

  stack that first seen on two x-men 2 and [TS]

  tell more about Magneto's backstory [TS]

  there i don't know you can make a better [TS]

  movie out of it by combining parts of [TS]

  both of them Frankenstein style nice the [TS]

  first movies are hard to do for these [TS]

  superhero movies because you gotta cram [TS]

  all the origin stuff in and you've got [TS]

  you've got to appeal to the fans and you [TS]

  have to throw and all that stuff let me [TS]

  let me submit this then and I'd like to [TS]

  hear what you guys say why do with why [TS]

  does every movie every superhero movie [TS]

  have to start with an origin story it [TS]

  kills it kills me apparently they're [TS]

  going to retail the spider-man origin [TS]

  story in the new in this but erm andrew [TS]

  garfield yeah it's always be by don't [TS]

  remember i must every superhero movie I [TS]

  mean you know what it's just like TV [TS]

  pilots right [TS]

  the origin is not always the most [TS]

  interesting thing in some ways the [TS]

  origin is the least interesting thing [TS]

  why would you spend your entire first [TS]

  movie or half of it even telling this [TS]

  origin story instead of getting to the [TS]

  good stuff i mean if you've got a good [TS]

  origin maybe it's different but a lot of [TS]

  these origin stories are boring and [TS]

  we've seen him before I mean is the [TS]

  superman reboot going to give us a baby [TS]

  and Krypton and all of that can [TS]

  I don't want to see it unless it's a [TS]

  five minute montage [TS]

  well I mean I john august just actually [TS]

  hadn't had an article up on his website [TS]

  about this about how in terms of [TS]

  starting with origin story in regards to [TS]

  TV shows where it's just most producers [TS]

  don't want to see these premises pilots [TS]

  these origin stories because it's hard [TS]

  to for the audience to connect and yet [TS]

  the writer is like but no everybody [TS]

  needs to know the back story because if [TS]

  you don't know the backstory how are you [TS]

  gonna know in general where we're coming [TS]

  from and how everything connects [TS]

  together it's I mean you could you could [TS]

  make a point for that in almost every [TS]

  form of literature and and visual and it [TS]

  is any comic book movie if you were [TS]

  going into the movie anymore major [TS]

  problem properties going so how does he [TS]

  get those spider powers [TS]

  no you know i mean all use Iron Man as [TS]

  an example of an origin story that [TS]

  didn't feel like an origin story to the [TS]

  point like I knew I knew very little [TS]

  about iron man going in other than you [TS]

  know it was a comic at one point and [TS]

  friends of mine liked it and it was [TS]

  played very much [TS]

  oh this isn't going to be some big [TS]

  terrible trauma they just kind of went [TS]

  forward where oh where being dropped out [TS]

  into the middle of Tony Stark's life and [TS]

  then from there we kind of split off and [TS]

  go I guess this terrible thing happens [TS]

  but if you're coming in like cold as a [TS]

  as a new viewer who knows nothing about [TS]

  iron man you don't know that [TS]

  oh this is the you know the catalyst [TS]

  getting kid nobody knows [TS]

  Iron Man's origin I think that's I think [TS]

  that's the difference right [TS]

  nobody knows about iron man so you tell [TS]

  that story but if it's one of these like [TS]

  spider-man they're going to retail an [TS]

  origin story that was told like less [TS]

  than 10 years before in a movie that [TS]

  everybody saw and i don't i don't really [TS]

  see the point other there are good [TS]

  origin story movies and in fact there's [TS]

  one movie that i know i think is on pins [TS]

  in my list of one of our favorite [TS]

  superhero movies that is actually all [TS]

  origin story but you don't know it [TS]

  because it's not have an existing [TS]

  character and i love that movie and [TS]

  we'll get to in a minute but you know [TS]

  that they're all these other movies [TS]

  where it's just that's it we gotta show [TS]

  everybody getting together and it's just [TS]

  I mean john august point which I haven't [TS]

  read that article but you know if I was [TS]

  a producer working on a TV show my pilot [TS]

  episode would not be the origin [TS]

  about how everybody met my pilot episode [TS]

  the one that sells your show would be [TS]

  this is what the show will be like every [TS]

  week because that's what people want to [TS]

  see is it you don't meet once but then [TS]

  what happens for the rest of your life [TS]

  that's not the interesting part [TS]

  yeah yeah I may be in the minority but [TS]

  as i said before i find the origin [TS]

  stories the most interesting part of [TS]

  most superhero stories like what my [TS]

  ideal first superhero movie story a [TS]

  movie plot is the the superhero does not [TS]

  appear into essentially the end of the [TS]

  movie and why you get to see is someone [TS]

  perhaps doing the same things the [TS]

  superhero would do but not sort of [TS]

  becoming Batman till the end of the [TS]

  movie not becoming spider-man until the [TS]

  end of the movie Iron Man is kind of [TS]

  like that and the movie that we're all [TS]

  gonna pick us our favorite apparently [TS]

  not much like very much like that [TS]

  because i find that the most interesting [TS]

  part is that it's the character is the [TS]

  main characters struggled to figure out [TS]

  uh you know what this what this thing is [TS]

  and you know what [TS]

  what I'm going to be or what I'm going [TS]

  to do with myself as any kind of story [TS]

  you don't if you start the movie with [TS]

  Batman is Batman then you have to have [TS]

  like a second level things like Batman [TS]

  knows he's Batman fine now he has to [TS]

  face a challenge that the challenges [TS]

  were strangers challenged and reacts [TS]

  that challenged by becoming Batman Dark [TS]

  Knight try to do that twice like the [TS]

  right man begins right and then dark [TS]

  knight like no now you're going to [TS]

  become the dark nights which is like [TS]

  level 2 of Batman and I love Batman [TS]

  Begins which is an origin so it's what [TS]

  you can ok i'll say also this you can [TS]

  retail an origin and it can be good but [TS]

  what I'm saying is I don't understand [TS]

  why everybody's grandmother he needs to [TS]

  be an origin story for the first one [TS]

  because some of them are it's good that [TS]

  it's the easiest to tell because if you [TS]

  start the movie a spider man it's like I [TS]

  got something for spider-man to do so I [TS]

  gotta punch spider-man in peril [TS]

  I've got to make it so you believe he's [TS]

  going to diabetes and actually dive got [TS]

  to make it look like he struggled why [TS]

  should we struggle you know spider [TS]

  superheroes a kind of Pollyanna whether [TS]

  you know why he dives I'm the main [TS]

  character I'm a superhero nothing's [TS]

  gonna happen to me [TS]

  no but not told right i mean those [TS]

  Stanley marvel superheroes I mean their [TS]

  whole story is that they're miserable [TS]

  when Peter Peter Parker story doesn't [TS]

  doesn't start and end with him getting [TS]

  the getting the spider bite I mean he [TS]

  you could start them off and for all I [TS]

  know the origin in the in the reboot is [TS]

  going to be a five-minute [TS]

  you know watch mens style montage and [TS]

  that's fine because you know meeting [TS]

  this kid in high school who's totally [TS]

  messed on messed up and picked on and [TS]

  you think you're seeing an origin story [TS]

  and it turns out that he actually is a [TS]

  superhero but he can't let any let on [TS]

  and his only releases getting into that [TS]

  costume [TS]

  I mean there's lots of stories to tell [TS]

  about that guy that would be pretty cool [TS]

  and kickass was sort of like that but I [TS]

  want to make a couple points here and i [TS]

  think the the second Hulk movie you know [TS]

  that was the that was the correction to [TS]

  the Angli that Norton yeah they had [TS]

  norton whole movie that kind of did the [TS]

  origin thing right because they did the [TS]

  the origins in in the credits and and [TS]

  that may be the way to get at it but i [TS]

  but I think with some of these other [TS]

  films is sort of you know sort of [TS]

  conventional origin stories I I could [TS]

  kind of liken it to some of what you [TS]

  have to do in newspaper work or [TS]

  journalism which is you cannot assume [TS]

  that your audience is merely you know [TS]

  your your fans and and that there's a [TS]

  lot of there's a lot of dumbing down [TS]

  that has to go on when you have to you [TS]

  have to restate things that may be [TS]

  obvious to you that maybe obvious to [TS]

  people who are at least somewhat [TS]

  familiar with the subject matter but but [TS]

  at the same time you have to then think [TS]

  about the people who may not know those [TS]

  things and then you have to lay that out [TS]

  for them in a way that you might you [TS]

  mate you may find frustrating as [TS]

  somebody who's a fan of the of the book [TS]

  or the other comic book or whatnot but [TS]

  you have to do it anyway and I suspect [TS]

  that's a lot of it and it it makes for [TS]

  some awkwardness especially for those of [TS]

  us who mean iron man is a very good [TS]

  example as you said because i think that [TS]

  was done well precisely because you know [TS]

  iron man who was by the way my favorite [TS]

  Marvel hero of all time and I and I've [TS]

  had prayed four years for that that [TS]

  movie to come out and I was I was pretty [TS]

  much satisfied with the result but iron [TS]

  man was a was a vietnam-era superhero [TS]

  and and the way that they were able to [TS]

  change up that origin [TS]

  and to to make it relevant to now was [TS]

  really great and and there's a lot of [TS]

  you know stuff in there sort of hidden [TS]

  stuff in there for real fans of the of [TS]

  the series you know the whole that the [TS]

  the whole ten rings thing which is a [TS]

  reference to mandarin and you know [TS]

  there's there's a lot of good stuff in [TS]

  that that in that first movie and it was [TS]

  done very very well and so and and I and [TS]

  I think again that the Hulk movie they [TS]

  had ignored hope Hulk movie was done [TS]

  pretty well to at least the origin [TS]

  aspect of it some of the some of the [TS]

  rest of it was so so but yeah I mean [TS]

  yeah I think Yuki I think these these [TS]

  movie makers are our kind of they have a [TS]

  quandary because they have to say on the [TS]

  one hand we need to appeal to the fans [TS]

  in on the other hand we need to appeal [TS]

  you know we need to get new butts in the [TS]

  seats yeah I I'm I accessibility is a [TS]

  really good reason to do it I just I [TS]

  guess what I'm saying is if within 10 [TS]

  years we have to and I'm saying this is [TS]

  actually what they're doing with the [TS]

  reboot i'm not sure but if we're doing [TS]

  two movies where half of the time [TS]

  running time is watching Peter Parker [TS]

  get bitten by a spider and him letting [TS]

  up burglar go past him and watching [TS]

  Uncle Ben dispense wisdom and then get [TS]

  shot and die and Peter be upset it's [TS]

  like wow do you really want to do a [TS]

  remake ten you know ten years later of a [TS]

  movie everybody you know lots of people [TS]

  have seen you got to tell that story and [TS]

  not more compressed way the superman [TS]

  reboot that's my fear is we're going to [TS]

  get the same story that they told him [TS]

  that smallville TV show and that they [TS]

  told in the superman movie with [TS]

  Christopher Reeve and I'm not sure that [TS]

  story needs to be told again now take my [TS]

  telling in a different way and that's [TS]

  different but and you're totally right [TS]

  that you can assume the audience knows [TS]

  the story i just it you know I it kills [TS]

  me how many movies of these characters [TS]

  are they going to make and if all of [TS]

  them are just retelling the origin it [TS]

  just seems kind of crushing to me know [TS]

  let me ask it well let me ask you this [TS]

  jason i mean think about think of it [TS]

  this way [TS]

  well what would you mean how would you [TS]

  introduce some of these characters to [TS]

  your children we you and I both have [TS]

  young kids right how I mean it's kind of [TS]

  you know it's interesting to me how Mike [TS]

  mice [TS]

  on whose now eight-and-a-half you know [TS]

  it is is being introduced to some of [TS]

  these characters and I remember he he [TS]

  was actually a big fan of the spider-man [TS]

  movies when he was like three but but [TS]

  some of these characters you know it's [TS]

  it's it's kind of interesting and [TS]

  wonderful to watch you know me you know [TS]

  my son you'll see these these characters [TS]

  that I kind of grew up with through the [TS]

  comics and things like that and so I [TS]

  mean I'd I you know I think about in [TS]

  terms of see now you know I've got a [TS]

  daughter who's going to be three and up [TS]

  in a few months and and and introducing [TS]

  her to to some of these characters that [TS]

  my son would have seen you know five or [TS]

  six years ago and and things like that [TS]

  and so I think I think it's possible to [TS]

  to reintroduce these origins to new [TS]

  generations of audiences in a way that's [TS]

  sort of interesting it might be familiar [TS]

  to us because we're old [TS]

  butBut to our kids and maybe something [TS]

  else about what do you think that kid a [TS]

  kid on a kid discovering a comic comic [TS]

  book superhero on TV or or at the [TS]

  spinner rack when we were kids you don't [TS]

  start with the origin you start in the [TS]

  middle of the action and my kid is not [TS]

  my son loves batman the brave and the [TS]

  bold which is a pretty good animated [TS]

  it's actually if you've ever seen it [TS]

  it's a good show it's it's a it's funny [TS]

  if there's some stuff in it for the [TS]

  grown-ups to laugh at [TS]

  Batman has a very dry sense of humor [TS]

  it's actually a lot of fun you know if I [TS]

  asked my son how Batman became Batman he [TS]

  would have no idea if I asked him about [TS]

  spider-man [TS]

  I think I've exposed them to the whole [TS]

  with great power comes great [TS]

  responsibility thing now but originally [TS]

  it would have just been no spider-man [TS]

  he's cool he's got the red suit swings [TS]

  around i think they know the core of the [TS]

  character and not how they got there so [TS]

  i guess i would argue you don't really [TS]

  need it because as a as a as a kid you [TS]

  learn about the hero and then later you [TS]

  get you hear the story of how they came [TS]

  to be i'm not sure that is the most me [TS]

  for some heroes let's face it probably [TS]

  is to John's point the most interesting [TS]

  thing about them and then once they've [TS]

  got their powers too boring i mean [TS]

  Superman you could argue that's true [TS]

  that it you know they made a whole TV [TS]

  series about what happens before he puts [TS]

  on the costume because once you put on [TS]

  the costume it's like death so i don't [TS]

  gotta take what you have to take away [TS]

  his powers for [TS]

  drama soon as he is Superman right [TS]

  Superman Superman as one of the younger [TS]

  members on this podcast is just what I [TS]

  no no me me young whatever we talking [TS]

  about [TS]

  I'm I really really hate the excuse of [TS]

  oh well we want to introduce it to a [TS]

  younger generation let's just remake it [TS]

  and instead of let's instead get our [TS]

  kids into the older things that we got [TS]

  into at the first place like I know some [TS]

  people are like oh well the kids are so [TS]

  used to modern-day special-effects [TS]

  they're not gonna want to see the [TS]

  original Superman or something like that [TS]

  we need to reboot it every 10 years [TS]

  because God knows there are the spider [TS]

  man that came out in what 2019 you like [TS]

  the 2,000 wire 2001 yeah 2002's all [TS]

  those those effects are so outdated [TS]

  that's why we're going to remake it and [TS]

  we really want to you know skew the sky [TS]

  I really just hate that argument in [TS]

  general and that can be made for outside [TS]

  the superhero genre to where it's it's [TS]

  it's a lazy man's excuse so here let's [TS]

  move on to the movies that we think have [TS]

  been underrated and are especially [TS]

  deserving of of of praise that what they [TS]

  may not have gotten I mean the consensus [TS]

  i think is that the dark knight which [TS]

  we've already taken our bats too huh not [TS]

  upon that I intended [TS]

  we have slammed the dark knight and and [TS]

  you know spider-man 2 is actually widely [TS]

  considered to be one of the one of the [TS]

  best superhero movies i'm interested in [TS]

  what you guys want to single out as as [TS]

  movies that one should should revisit [TS]

  that are better than maybe are widely [TS]

  are widely held been would you like to [TS]

  go first on this one [TS]

  sure I really loved darkman which was I [TS]

  mean talking about Sam Raimi Oh Sam [TS]

  Raimi you know dark man came out 1990 I [TS]

  think start Larry Drake from LA Law and [TS]

  some no-name guy Liam Neeson I don't [TS]

  know what he went on to do but it was a [TS]

  terrific film it was supposed to be the [TS]

  shadow and Ramey couldn't get the right [TS]

  i think it's kind of [TS]

  I i think it's sort of a cult favorite [TS]

  and and probably folks here would [TS]

  probably respected a lot i but i don't [TS]

  think it's really well appreciated i [TS]

  think it came in between you know that [TS]

  you know there was that that's the spate [TS]

  of you know super Superman films in the [TS]

  seventies and early eighties and then [TS]

  you know this is great revival of [TS]

  superhero movies in the in the latter [TS]

  part of the 1990s and and throughout the [TS]

  2000s but they kind of came at an [TS]

  interesting time well I guess now i [TS]

  guess in the nineteen nineties you had [TS]

  your well too bad the bad i hadn't had [TS]

  the Batman you had the tip you know the [TS]

  problem with the tim burton Batman [TS]

  things a is it is those tim burton's [TS]

  batman movies are so overshadowed by the [TS]

  sequels that you I almost mean with the [TS]

  exception of the elfin soundtracks I've [TS]

  kind of put them out of my brain to the [TS]

  original isn't good it's a good evidence [TS]

  I great is it is i mean in but you know [TS]

  whatever happened to Michael Keaton too [TS]

  by the way no I know he's sucking still [TS]

  around but no III dark I think darkman [TS]

  it came in that in that period you know [TS]

  a way that was probably overshadowed by [TS]

  by the Batman the burden Batman films as [TS]

  well and and but it was it was it's [TS]

  really good and you know it it has that [TS]

  great Larry Drake villain I mean you [TS]

  know I think I think he was probably one [TS]

  of the better-known people in that movie [TS]

  and you had this this great story with [TS]

  you know this this do good scientists [TS]

  who should face is burned off and that [TS]

  mean it's got this darkness to it and [TS]

  but it's you know it's got this great [TS]

  heroism to is got this this great humor [TS]

  to it is that so that's the reason I [TS]

  believe that Sam Raimi got the job to [TS]

  direct Spiderman was that he had not [TS]

  only have this great cult following but [TS]

  he had a superhero movie and it was good [TS]

  it was really good but yeah I mean yeah [TS]

  I I am i I've seen that probably why I [TS]

  saw it when it came out in theatres and [TS]

  the nice i watched it again a couple [TS]

  years ago [TS]

  and i think i think i ran across the end [TS]

  of it on on cable [TS]

  maybe within the past few months and you [TS]

  know the end there were Bruce Campbell [TS]

  makes his his cameo appearance as he's [TS]

  want to do and I any of these ray movies [TS]

  but yea dark man is is it is a great [TS]

  little superhero film that you know it's [TS]

  got all these people who went on to do [TS]

  great things in it you know and you know [TS]

  Frances McDormand to love interest you [TS]

  know is that was some years before fargo [TS]

  and when no one knew who she was and now [TS]

  it's it's it's really really good and [TS]

  that's kind of one of those things that [TS]

  I'm sort of maybe when my son is a [TS]

  little older i'm looking forward to just [TS]

  showing to him because I i think that's [TS]

  one of those one of those really [TS]

  well-rounded superhero movies that [TS]

  doesn't involve superpowers but it's got [TS]

  great action and great drama and and and [TS]

  bring me a brilliant riding and you know [TS]

  memorable lines like you know bring [TS]

  mediations fingers things like this is [TS]

  you are a sucker for those lines aren't [TS]

  you [TS]

  I know I know ya get the bone sobbing [TS]

  the asian me rehne do you have a movie [TS]

  that deserves a little a little extra [TS]

  love well I would say the rocketeer [TS]

  except i feel like that's not underrated [TS]

  in the geek following to which I'm [TS]

  talking to I I'd say it's publicly like [TS]

  on the whole underrated well I mean you [TS]

  could you do that I know if dan moore [TS]

  and were here he would say the rocketeer [TS]

  because he loves that movie I I'll i [TS]

  love the Rockets you dearly but i but I [TS]

  feel like it would be I don't know every [TS]

  everybody likes the rocketeer yes on the [TS]

  podcast i feei like I want to talk i [TS]

  guess more you can you can skip ahead we [TS]

  we've mentioned the rocketeer the [TS]

  rocketeers been covered if you've got [TS]

  something else you'd like to [TS]

  well it's like I i love the rocketeer [TS]

  and the rocketeers probably one of my [TS]

  favorite superhero films but in terms of [TS]

  like underrated and kind of guilt I more [TS]

  guilty pleasure is I have a very special [TS]

  place in my heart for Mystery Men of all [TS]

  which is this not is a movie that came [TS]

  out in 1999 which is basically about a [TS]

  bunch of misanthropic too [TS]

  heroes and did terribly the box and [TS]

  still are right yeah against ben stiller [TS]

  but the really i mean on unlike sort of [TS]

  an outside glands it's like you look at [TS]

  the trailer you're like okay this is [TS]

  going to be ridiculous and kind of [TS]

  stupid but it i mean and and it has its [TS]

  ridiculous moments but there's something [TS]

  to be said about the group of the [TS]

  outcasts who band together and try and [TS]

  try and take care of people and getting [TS]

  rid of the popular shoot like the [TS]

  popular super heroes vs. the unpopular [TS]

  superheroes and accidentally killing the [TS]

  popular superhero and william h macy as [TS]

  a superhero which is just hilarious [TS]

  visitors gene Gruffalo as a superhero [TS]

  eddie izzard isn't it is one of the [TS]

  villain something like that but it's [TS]

  just it's one of those it's one of those [TS]

  films that when i'm kinda like 16 or [TS]

  when I'm down its such it's so like so [TS]

  much fun to watch very ridiculous [TS]

  all right mystery man John what about [TS]

  you what what underappreciated do you [TS]

  think this will be quick because so [TS]

  we've already pretty much disgusted but [TS]

  I think Batman Begins is underrated [TS]

  mostly because the dark knight just [TS]

  squashes it in the minds of the public [TS]

  but if you go back and watch batman [TS]

  begins its like a breath of fresh air [TS]

  like maybe the highs are as high as they [TS]

  are in Dark Knight but the overall [TS]

  average of the movies much higher is [TS]

  just clean tidy takes itself seriously [TS]

  does everything that you know either [TS]

  competently or well and and it really [TS]

  holds together re-watching it recently i [TS]

  was reminded of how much more like this [TS]

  like I'd I I'd almost forgotten it [TS]

  existed because you know dark knight is [TS]

  says you know come and taken over the [TS]

  consciousness but uh that one that I [TS]

  think deserves more credit than dark [TS]

  night and is consequently underrated by [TS]

  most people this point I'm with you [TS]

  there I actually think that that might [TS]

  be Christopher Nolan's best movie [TS]

  because i also thought inception was [TS]

  kinda shaky but that's another podcast [TS]

  anyway about momento i did--like momenta [TS]

  well mementos up there and I like the [TS]

  what's the magician movie that he did [TS]

  this is the 11th prestige the Presti [TS]

  machine of the Presti's that might be my [TS]

  favorite but it's not him [TS]

  yeah so but I I'd i agree with you i [TS]

  bought back man begins when it came out [TS]

  on DVD because I was like that is a [TS]

  great i don't buy a lot [TS]

  the dvds but that one was a definite [TS]

  purchase because I am [TS]

  yea big big fan of that one they did a [TS]

  great origin story too [TS]

  yeah it is it is a good or official [TS]

  story is a good origin story because it [TS]

  made the material new again I think that [TS]

  man Ryan's was probably my favorite I [TS]

  new superhero movie until iron man came [TS]

  out right does everybody here love iron [TS]

  man but that's another one that I i love [TS]

  iron man just don't disagree and i love [TS]

  them i thought the movie was fun but it [TS]

  is not even close to batman begins in my [TS]

  mind I don't have anything bad to say [TS]

  about ours in my top 5 along with Batman [TS]

  Begins I think it's robert downey jr [TS]

  honestly that doesn't give me your [TS]

  captain's his way through that movie and [TS]

  I think it that's one of the best things [TS]

  about that movie maybe I'm just not into [TS]

  iron man kind of the same way around the [TS]

  spider-man it's a good movie [TS]

  it doesn't have anything wrong with it [TS]

  just it didn't want me as much as Batman [TS]

  Begins other than JK Simmons jonah [TS]

  Jameson it maybe Robert Downey junior [TS]

  Ironman maybe the best bit of superhero [TS]

  movie casting ever [TS]

  I mean it's that was good casting its [TS]

  purpose i don't know much about iron man [TS]

  but you i mean he he just as iron man 3 [TS]

  billionaire so you're talking with Tony [TS]

  Stark it to ya [TS]

  perhaps yeah we have yes absolutely yeah [TS]

  yeah I know i-i-i on twitter i was [TS]

  talking about my favorite superhero [TS]

  movies and and I couldn't decide the [TS]

  number three slot whether it would be [TS]

  Batman Begins for ironman because i like [TS]

  them both and yes I admit one of the [TS]

  reasons i like Iron Man my push Ironman [TS]

  is because it was released at the [TS]

  beginning of the summer that the Dark [TS]

  Knight came out and everybody said oh [TS]

  dark knight grade its best picture and [TS]

  all this stuff and I said wow you know I [TS]

  it wasn't even the best superhero movie [TS]

  to you because I I've had a much I came [TS]

  out of iron man feeling so great it was [TS]

  such a ride and you know what when I [TS]

  watch it back it's still a good it's [TS]

  still a really good movie [TS]

  it makes you smile yeah it's fun the [TS]

  only time somebody iron man my son this [TS]

  is one of my great accomplishments as a [TS]

  parent my son loved Iron Man Iron movie [TS]

  so much he actually likes the ironman [TS]

  video game which is terrible [TS]

  which is awful haha no that is an [TS]

  endorsement and that's the power of [TS]

  intellectual property I'm gonna say for [TS]

  my for my underappreciated and actually [TS]

  looked at [TS]

  up on rotten tomatoes and got a [TS]

  75-percent of tomato meter reading but I [TS]

  feel like maybe it doesn't have a lot of [TS]

  credibility as a superhero movie because [TS]

  people view it as a kind of cheesy kids [TS]

  moving but megamind love the megamind [TS]

  and I think that anybody mind is great [TS]

  love superheroes should see megamind [TS]

  because it is it is a really good movie [TS]

  and my kids liked it yeah but i loved it [TS]

  and and yes it was a lot of debts to a [TS]

  lot of different movies including what [TS]

  including the watchman comic book not [TS]

  the movie including the incredibles but [TS]

  megamind I think 44 jaded geeky people [TS]

  who are like I'm not gonna watch that [TS]

  that's a kids movie watch megamind I [TS]

  just mind was megamind was really good [TS]

  and of of the non pixar movies that came [TS]

  out in 2010 [TS]

  I actually I liked megamind better than [TS]

  respectable tickle me know i like to [TS]

  make mine a lot my son like mine i think [TS]

  quite a bit more than that one with [TS]

  corel whatever it's called the CNO me [TS]

  been despicable you ya know it was no [TS]

  but megamind was really cool and and [TS]

  yeah in it and and it's it was a lot but [TS]

  she that the reason why that worked i [TS]

  think is because the references weren't [TS]

  so obvious right a problem with a lot of [TS]

  these these animated movies that mean [TS]

  they rely too much on obvious pop [TS]

  culture references that will be dated an [TS]

  interesting problem [TS]

  yeah this track and and the worst movie [TS]

  of all time in this in this vein was [TS]

  planet 51 but but but make mine was was [TS]

  really good it was really pretty sound [TS]

  and I'm you know what I think that'll [TS]

  hold up pretty well and I i hope it i [TS]

  hope it does well what one of the best [TS]

  if not the best will ferrell performance [TS]

  by the way [TS]

  so you know ho no yep that's me [TS]

  mispronounces ever he refers to the city [TS]

  of men of Metrocity as matroska t crimes [TS]

  with atrocity throughout it's beautiful [TS]

  it's actually a wacky performance but [TS]

  it's got the big E's got the big head [TS]

  like the leader from the incredible hulk [TS]

  and he's the villain but he's sort of [TS]

  the hero and these the protagonist and [TS]

  it's good so now with our remaining time [TS]

  i wanna i wanna flip it over to the [TS]

  lighter side i want some on a bash [TS]

  praise of a movie that you love that's a [TS]

  superhero movie that you would hold up [TS]

  and say that's the way to do it [TS]

  that's the stuff and for this will start [TS]

  with red you have a you have put [TS]

  something up on the pedestal [TS]

  this is where i put Rocketeer up on the [TS]

  pedestal rockin Rapids here racketeer [TS]

  and incredibles are my two my to kind of [TS]

  top go with all the time superhero react [TS]

  the other one's gonna get mentioned [TS]

  really Jason you don't sell its possible [TS]

  whether only there I've got two and i [TS]

  think both of them might be mentioned [TS]

  before I could get to me but that's ok [TS]

  so Rocketeer provoke a love for for the [TS]

  rocket you know Jennifer Connelly's in [TS]

  the rocketeer I know Jennifer Connelly's [TS]

  in the rocketeer all kind of wonderful [TS]

  people in the rocketeer alan arkin in [TS]

  the rocketeer Timothy Dalton as well [TS]

  Timothy Dalton is great the rocketeer [TS]

  Timothy Dalton is fantastic [TS]

  I mean I love ok I'm i have a big place [TS]

  in my heart for I sort of i think it's [TS]

  the Indiana Jones complex where I just [TS]

  like movies that are set in the nineteen [TS]

  thirties in the nineteen forties there's [TS]

  something fantastic about it and that [TS]

  the Nazis and I mean you really can't go [TS]

  wrong when you have knocked eases as the [TS]

  lurking force in a film and people [TS]

  flying to the point where i grew up in [TS]

  pasadena and the rose parade went right [TS]

  by my house when I was a kid and I think [TS]

  I came back from college a couple years [TS]

  back in george lucas was hosting the the [TS]

  Rose Parade that year he was the Grand [TS]

  Marshal and had you know the star wars [TS]

  star wars floats and most of it was [TS]

  pretty cool theme which was unfortunate [TS]

  but the highlight of that rose parade [TS]

  for me was not like the excess of Star [TS]

  Wars but it was the moment where a man [TS]

  from Ohio came out of a float strapped [TS]

  to what looked like the [TS]

  you rock it from the rocketeer and flew [TS]

  around the parade group and it was the [TS]

  coolest thing because i was you know [TS]

  it's like oh my favorite moves and sits [TS]

  in real life and was super exciting but [TS]

  I'm the the film itself i magically love [TS]

  it's there are corny parts in their [TS]

  cheesy parts but it's wonderful i love [TS]

  the score [TS]

  I I is I just feel like I battle over it [TS]

  because it's it's yeah it's a comfort [TS]

  movie and it's very hard and it takes [TS]

  place in LA so right the rocketeer John [TS]

  what about you for for uh some happy [TS]

  thoughts [TS]

  so I'm going to take the one that I [TS]

  think is on your list as well I could [TS]

  take both of us but i'll just take one [TS]

  thanks let Ben take the other one [TS]

  yeah all right this could also go under [TS]

  underrated because i think it is [TS]

  underrated i think it is but it's also [TS]

  my favorite superhero movie probably [TS]

  because it has most of the trappings of [TS]

  a note doesn't have most of the [TS]

  trappings of a superhero movie clichés [TS]

  but he has all of the clichés they all [TS]

  the clichés or they're just not the [TS]

  trappings of themselves kind of stealth [TS]

  and it's and night shyamalan's [TS]

  unbreakable we have my favorite [TS]

  superhero movie and my favorite and [TS]

  night Shyamalan movie [TS]

  yes it outstanding because in there and [TS]

  you just like it you like wasting this [TS]

  every single cliché from superhero [TS]

  movie is there but they do not have the [TS]

  window dressing I don't know and just [TS]

  you don't know you're watching a [TS]

  superhero movie and roll right but very [TS]

  late where you realize oh IC right and [TS]

  it does it does it all the exact same [TS]

  things of a superhero and we are his [TS]

  story but in a superhero I don't know [TS]

  what the trappings are like but [TS]

  obviously the trappings are titled it [TS]

  gives you the name of a superhero the [TS]

  trappings are that there's you know that [TS]

  this theme music for the superpower that [TS]

  you're familiar with the superhero ahead [TS]

  of time that you know that this this is [TS]

  not a a Marvel or DC comic yer this is [TS]

  nobody this is this is a in the same way [TS]

  in a real-life superhero situation does [TS]

  not believe you just said that there's [TS]

  no foreknowledge of who the superhero is [TS]

  what their name is going to be what [TS]

  their powers are going to be from [TS]

  variety from the from the audience from [TS]

  the person involved in the story at all [TS]

  so we're talking about you know why do [TS]

  they have to redo the origin stories [TS]

  everyone knows spider- that's that's [TS]

  part of the problem like the title of [TS]

  the movie is Spiderman ever [TS]

  no there's got to be some manners a [TS]

  spider and we probably heard of [TS]

  spider-man we've heard of Superman right [TS]

  there's always called unbreakable will [TS]

  make out nothing [TS]

  it's a fake out because everybody saw [TS]

  the sixth sense and so they're thinking [TS]

  it's gonna be a thriller it's gonna be a [TS]

  supernatural kind of story and and for a [TS]

  guy whose whole career has been derailed [TS]

  I mean eventually by himself but also by [TS]

  the reputation of his first movie the [TS]

  unbreakable is great i think in part [TS]

  because it does play against his [TS]

  reputation in a way that means and this [TS]

  may be why it isn't as loved as it [TS]

  should be [TS]

  you know people are expecting it to be [TS]

  one thing and it's and it's another but [TS]

  I love that it's it's that's the fake [TS]

  out of it he kind of walked backwards [TS]

  into success here because all his movies [TS]

  are so our shop the same pace to send [TS]

  like he's got that that's that every [TS]

  night style he has is perfect for a [TS]

  movie like The Sixth Sense and it's [TS]

  totally not what you expect for Superman [TS]

  we have since every single one of his [TS]

  movies are like this it just so happens [TS]

  that doing a super hero movie like this [TS]

  is is great because you're like what's [TS]

  going on here is this is this some [TS]

  serious you know I don't quite it gets [TS]

  you into it in the same way you know [TS]

  like for example that same pacing those [TS]

  in the village and the village just like [TS]

  screw you i'm not you know it just ends [TS]

  up being silly or stupid or whatever [TS]

  with this just draws you in and draws [TS]

  you in and the payoff is there and [TS]

  you're like this was the greatest [TS]

  superhero movie ever you know and I [TS]

  didn't even know what I was watching [TS]

  until late in the game and then you look [TS]

  Mac you located all those exact same [TS]

  things and more as a result that moment [TS]

  you know where he's whatever he is what [TS]

  like a green poncho man or what ever is [TS]

  basically what it is but a man with an [TS]

  ancho mr. unbreakable which is no nobody [TS]

  goes into the house and he's very [TS]

  reluctant to do it and he discovers that [TS]

  he's got these abilities and he goes [TS]

  into the house and there's the business [TS]

  you know they've been there people being [TS]

  held captive and their people who are [TS]

  dead and he he almost dies and he gets [TS]

  saved by the people he saved and that [TS]

  it's just so unbelievably powerful i [TS]

  actually think powerful in a way that no [TS]

  other seen in any other super hero movie [TS]

  is and it's got to be because of the [TS]

  grounding you get before you get to that [TS]

  point that was the movie that [TS]

  established I mean that really really [TS]

  established the kind of realism that I [TS]

  think a lot of audiences have come to [TS]

  expect [TS]

  back from superhero movies now because [TS]

  it really showed you know the the [TS]

  humanity and vulnerability of the hero [TS]

  and so you see that and in a lot of you [TS]

  know in TV shows like heroes and things [TS]

  like that i mean i think that movie the [TS]

  movie was so good for for that reason [TS]

  it's just like what it what it would be [TS]

  like a spider man tries to this is under [TS]

  what would it be like if you were a [TS]

  regular person one day and then you [TS]

  found you had these amazing powers the [TS]

  next day what what effect will that have [TS]

  on you and spider-man it's like well [TS]

  this is a big responsibility i'm just a [TS]

  teenager and I want to be a teenager but [TS]

  you know that but you're still kind of [TS]

  like oh I'm spider-man this is like no [TS]

  seriously what if you just slug off the [TS]

  street with the marriage that has [TS]

  problems in a kid and just a job and and [TS]

  you know this starts to become a parent [TS]

  in your life what would that be like [TS]

  what how it manifests itself what would [TS]

  do you would you want to be a hero would [TS]

  you be interested in this at all you [TS]

  know that that level of realism because [TS]

  again it space like an M night Shyamalan [TS]

  movie you're not sure where they're [TS]

  going is like it's a especially the [TS]

  beginning like so this is a movie about [TS]

  a guy was crazy and thinks he has [TS]

  superpowers or as just about his mental [TS]

  breakdown or is he gonna like [TS]

  accidentally get killed by his boat his [TS]

  kid in the kitchen you know whether the [TS]

  whole scene with the gun and everything [TS]

  you're not sure you know if you don't go [TS]

  in which i didn't want to know nothing [TS]

  about this movie you don't go in with [TS]

  Superman superheroes anywhere in your [TS]

  mind those early scenes are just you [TS]

  know riveting and confusing and you [TS]

  don't quite understand where the movies [TS]

  going and then only in retrospect can [TS]

  you go back like a superhero he has a [TS]

  weakness is our story has an archenemy [TS]

  you know now and the end of the pieces [TS]

  come together [TS]

  yeah the in fact the train wreck at the [TS]

  beginning which is stunning eyes I it [TS]

  never shows the wreck and yet it is just [TS]

  this amazing shocking thing and in [TS]

  hindsight you look at that you say well [TS]

  that is sort of his equivalent of the [TS]

  you know with great power comes great [TS]

  responsibility kind of moment where he [TS]

  is the only survivor of a train wreck [TS]

  and he steps out of the wreckage is [TS]

  brought out of the wreckage but at the [TS]

  time I mean you how would you ever think [TS]

  that that's the context of it and his [TS]

  son is also like the great power great [TS]

  responsibility his son throw up on in [TS]

  the idea of a child saying well but [TS]

  don't if you can do these things that [TS]

  you have a responsibility to you know [TS]

  like it because [TS]

  that's just what kids want to hear to [TS]

  save them and the father you know an [TS]

  adult doesn't think that the kid [TS]

  immediately says no you have to be super [TS]

  you have to do this the kid you know [TS]

  puts more weight on the bar balance says [TS]

  now let's see what you can do you have [TS]

  to do this right all right Ben it's your [TS]

  turn [TS]

  I'm stealing your other favorite go [TS]

  ahead movie of all time [TS]

  the incredibles yeah then surprise [TS]

  waiting all yelling 321 in unison say [TS]

  the incredibles mean this is a movie [TS]

  that everyone is really the sort of [TS]

  quintessential superhero movie because [TS]

  it is unburdened by any other you know [TS]

  property here you have it the the you [TS]

  know pixar was able to establish this [TS]

  this grand universe this origin but at [TS]

  the same time we we can recognize these [TS]

  people are never ever any awards and [TS]

  story about how they get their powers by [TS]

  the way there's just no no origins no [TS]

  origin story but in fact it did the [TS]

  watchman better than the watchman [TS]

  yes I mean it you know we have these [TS]

  people who were super powerful and who [TS]

  were forced out by the government [TS]

  because of lost lots of lessons right [TS]

  right nao and the watchman it was [TS]

  different but I mean this is basically [TS]

  the watchman is it should have been done [TS]

  but they do the great i mean the [TS]

  incredibles was you know this this this [TS]

  great superhero tale about excellence [TS]

  yes and yet and duty excellence in Duty [TS]

  is really what it comes down to because [TS]

  these are people who are you know gods [TS]

  among mortals who have an obligation to [TS]

  serve their fellow man i mean which is [TS]

  what every superhero stories sort of [TS]

  about but it is done in such a way it is [TS]

  done so well and is done precisely [TS]

  because it is it is sort of knew and [TS]

  they were able to create this universe [TS]

  drawing on influences from all the [TS]

  comics and in cartoons and other films [TS]

  that we've seen what is done in such a [TS]

  such a way that is is unlike anything [TS]

  we've ever seen I know Jason you've [TS]

  actually said in the past that I mean in [TS]

  that particular year i think that was [TS]

  not not only your favorite animal [TS]

  did film it was also what your favorite [TS]

  film yeah that particular year and I [TS]

  think it's the best pixar movie and [TS]

  that's saying something [TS]

  hmm maybe it absolutely is one aspect of [TS]

  the incredibles that is interesting for [TS]

  a superhero movie but is one of my [TS]

  favorite things about the movie is it [TS]

  has a very healthy dose of James Bond [TS]

  thrown in case it's not a super room but [TS]

  they throw that in there and it just [TS]

  works so well it's like the special [TS]

  spice that you know the secret spice and [TS]

  the recipe that just pulls it all [TS]

  together for me because that's the [TS]

  flavor of like the middle that movie in [TS]

  terms of the the setting and action [TS]

  scenes and anywhere with you know you [TS]

  know the drum mic right in the Michael [TS]

  chiquinho score house where is [TS]

  channeling john-michael chiquinho score [TS]

  is right from John Barry yeah that like [TS]

  that that's my favorite scene in the [TS]

  whole movie when he's coming in on that [TS]

  big manta ray thing and it ducks under [TS]

  the water it's a horrific you know [TS]

  montage like thing of him getting a [TS]

  secret message going to the secret [TS]

  island you know you ends up on the [TS]

  balcony with this tropical paradise with [TS]

  a drink in his hand and they cut to the [TS]

  White vacuuming and get ahead of stuffs [TS]

  getting dressed I'm gonna get that [TS]

  little sequence is one of the one of the [TS]

  best put together parts of this movie [TS]

  even though it has very little to do [TS]

  with superheroes and so much more to do [TS]

  it James Bond I feel like it adds [TS]

  immensely to the movie gives it gives it [TS]

  another flavor instead of just the [TS]

  superhero soft well again it's the [TS]

  difference between excellence and [TS]

  mediocrity or just living living kind of [TS]

  the normal life versus living the [TS]

  extraordinary life whether it's james [TS]

  bond or superhero with super villain in [TS]

  this movie his ultimate plan is to give [TS]

  everybody superpowers everybody special [TS]

  no one will be yeah that's right and I [TS]

  mean yes it's not the most subtle [TS]

  message of a movie and yet I do i do [TS]

  like it that the message in the movie [TS]

  and I think it's rare to get this [TS]

  message which is you know people who [TS]

  have exceptional talents should be [TS]

  should not be ashamed of them and should [TS]

  make use of them and that seems so basic [TS]

  and yet you know i think that you know [TS]

  oftentimes in our culture we we have a [TS]

  tendency to go the other way so i love [TS]

  that that's the whole point not just [TS]

  with syndrome wanting to give himself [TS]

  powers and give everybody else powers [TS]

  but also of dash who has been told not [TS]

  to use his his abilities at all and is [TS]

  told to you don't even go out for the [TS]

  track team [TS]

  and you know and then you throw in Duty [TS]

  has been said and that comes back to he [TS]

  feels a duty to help the people he works [TS]

  for the insurance company he feel you [TS]

  know if there's the the husband's duty [TS]

  to the wife and to support the family [TS]

  which leads him into this adventure [TS]

  somewhat misguidedly but it also you [TS]

  know has this effect where she believes [TS]

  that that he's cheating on her and so [TS]

  there's this whole marriage dynamic and [TS]

  about what the what the marital [TS]

  relationship is there what his duty is [TS]

  to his wife just so much stuff in here [TS]

  on top of the fantastic look the [TS]

  fantastic soundtrack you know it's just [TS]

  I was watching this this weekend with my [TS]

  kids and and it's a [TS]

  kids and and it's a [TS]

  so what prompted this podcast and I am [TS]

  blown away by that movie every time I [TS]

  watch it I think well you know I've seen [TS]

  this a million times and I always get [TS]

  something else out of it [TS]

  the midlife crisis angle in the middle [TS]

  are the air as well because that that's [TS]

  a whole other you mean you could do a [TS]

  whole movie based around you can imagine [TS]

  for example DreamWorks doing entire [TS]

  movie based around a superhero in my [TS]

  life crisis that's just a tiny part of [TS]

  this movie but it fits in so perfectly [TS]

  because you know it's it's barely an [TS]

  allegory at that point because men have [TS]

  midlife crisis i think while i was in [TS]

  high school I was Superman and look at [TS]

  me now I'm just I'm fat and I'm a slob [TS]

  and I can't get to use my superpowers [TS]

  and I've got a wife and I'm tied down [TS]

  and my wife pointed out something that [TS]

  made me laugh that he he starts out many [TS]

  does his first adventure in his old [TS]

  sutin and he's really fat and then he [TS]

  gets the new suit but between then [TS]

  between those two scenes he starts [TS]

  working out and he drops weight and he [TS]

  looks a lot better because he's working [TS]

  out at the rail yard picking up train [TS]

  cars and stuff like that and when he [TS]

  goes to Edna to get his suit she looks [TS]

  at mrs. god you've gotten fat and I [TS]

  loved that because no no he's better now [TS]

  he looks better than he did a couple of [TS]

  months ago and she still thinks he's [TS]

  completely lost it i want just yeah i [TS]

  mean i will Brad Bird who's made some [TS]

  incredible movies because no pun [TS]

  intended again uh including the Iron [TS]

  Giant and ratatouille and every time I [TS]

  hear a new Pixar sequel announced i am [TS]

  sad again that it's not an incredible [TS]

  sequel although I guess brad bird will [TS]

  make that movie when he's good and ready [TS]

  you don't want that rushed i don't know [TS]

  why it's just a perfect combination of [TS]

  things I very little to say a bad about [TS]

  it's interesting that it's kind of [TS]

  lifted from the Fantastic Four except [TS]

  the human torch just replaced by the [TS]

  flash I guess but you know I like having [TS]

  that superhero family just mixes up all [TS]

  these great elements and it doesn't feel [TS]

  like a mishmash it feels like it's sort [TS]

  of perfectly balanced and I think that [TS]

  goes to the story system that they have [TS]

  at Pixar where they really they really [TS]

  work on the story and put and and to the [TS]

  point where they don't make bad movies [TS]

  and the screenplays that they have are [TS]

  all walk down that pretty solid was just [TS]

  a wonderfully complex movie there's just [TS]

  layers upon layers of different things [TS]

  it's one of [TS]

  as as you'd say in Hollywood speak it's [TS]

  a four-quadrant movie where somebody [TS]

  from every you know the teenage boys [TS]

  like it the teenage girls like it the [TS]

  young kids like it the parents like it [TS]

  you know the older the older generation [TS]

  likes it there is something quite [TS]

  literally for everyone to enjoy [TS]

  think of how they put all of those [TS]

  aspects and all those stories into one [TS]

  movie that's not too long that's this no [TS]

  fat there's no wasted seems it's it's an [TS]

  amazing achievement of connecting a [TS]

  bunch of jigsaw pieces but again two or [TS]

  three of those pieces can make an entire [TS]

  bed dreamworks movie at like it that's [TS]

  our plot the middle I don't know [TS]

  supercilious and Lancelot the shy girl [TS]

  who comes into her own when she gets her [TS]

  powers like every single one of those [TS]

  things there's so many characters and so [TS]

  much movie in here it's amazing they get [TS]

  it all in under you know whatever it is [TS]

  less than two hours think yeah well uh [TS]

  any movies that we missed I I can't I [TS]

  can't bring my movies to the table [TS]

  because it i was when i was forming my [TS]

  all-time top five high fidelity style [TS]

  superhero movie list it was the [TS]

  incredibles unbreakable Iron Man [TS]

  spider-man 3 and i'm not sure what I had [TS]

  it spider-man three are sorry spider-man [TS]

  2 oh god no i'm not quite sure what I [TS]

  had at number five but maybe nothing [TS]

  maybe that's open not the watchman not [TS]

  the one now well on that note I'm going [TS]

  to I'm going to close the doors of the [TS]

  halls of Justice the whole justice [TS]

  something like that i'm gonna i'm going [TS]

  to say goodbye and i'm sure we will pick [TS]

  up this topic again later they're so [TS]

  much to it but until that time I would [TS]

  like to thank my guess John siracusa [TS]

  thank you very much for being here again [TS]

  and you're very welcome addition then [TS]

  Boychuk thanks for thanks for being on [TS]

  the podcast again it's good we'll have [TS]

  to have you back soon and you very much [TS]

  and serenity called well thank you again [TS]

  for dropping in and sharing with us your [TS]

  love of the rocketeer well thank you [TS]

  Jason and until next time thanks to [TS]

  everybody out there for listening to the [TS]

  incomparable i'm jason l will see you [TS]

  next time [TS]