The Incomparable

24: My Word as Vorkosigan


  the incomparable podcast 24-foot love [TS]

  for family 2011 [TS]

  we are back on the incomparable podcast [TS]

  I'm Jason smell your post the topic [TS]

  today is Brooks and if you've tuned in [TS]

  can you tune in a podcast to hear us [TS]

  talk about dexter Palmer's delightful [TS]

  book the dream of perpetual motion which [TS]

  features Zeppelin's I have some bad news [TS]

  for you lots of people are still reading [TS]

  it or are promising to read it soon [TS]

  it's so so we're gonna we're gonna do it [TS]

  but it's going to be in a few more weeks [TS]

  in the interim we have a book club [TS]

  podcast that we've cobbled together on [TS]

  short notice because it turns out that [TS]

  for members of the vast incomparable [TS]

  conspiracy have read many books in the [TS]

  four cosas con Sokka by lois mcmaster [TS]

  bujold and so that so we're going to [TS]

  talk about that that's what are topic is [TS]

  today if you have not read these books [TS]

  it's ok we're going to be light on the [TS]

  spoilers at the beginning then we're [TS]

  gonna fire off the spoiler horn and you [TS]

  need to run away until you've read them [TS]

  all because they're great [TS]

  joining me today to talk about the [TS]

  foreclosing saga on the other end of the [TS]

  internet is exactly opposite me on the [TS]

  Internet is Scott McNulty Scott thank [TS]

  you for joining us thank you for keeping [TS]

  me and internets away an internets [TS]

  length away [TS]

  yes exactly I like you I like you there [TS]

  I know where to find you on the other [TS]

  side of the internet here with me in san [TS]

  francisco in our makeshift studio is [TS]

  serenity called well thank you for being [TS]

  here thank you Jason and across from me [TS]

  in the same very studio is the man who [TS]

  introduced these books to me it says own [TS]

  fault that we are having this [TS]

  conversation because he loves them so [TS]

  much [TS]

  it's the one the only on every podcast [TS]

  Dan Morgan hi dan it's so good to be [TS]

  back you know it's been awhile i know or [TS]

  at least a couple weeks at least a [TS]

  couple weeks who knows i actually don't [TS]

  know in in podcasting is order and [TS]

  iphone maybe it hasn't been awhile could [TS]

  it's possible it's possible so the [TS]

  foreclosed again saga I think dan and I [TS]

  have to start with you two to talk about [TS]

  how you may be how you discovered these [TS]

  books and and what what that was all [TS]

  about because you I blame you i'm as I [TS]

  yes I heard about these books back [TS]

  actually when I was in college so [TS]

  probably about 10 years [TS]

  ago I was looking for something to read [TS]

  and it was one of the the series that [TS]

  had been recommended to me by to my [TS]

  cousin and her husband both of whom are [TS]

  avid science fiction and fantasy readers [TS]

  and both are teachers as well and they [TS]

  they have provided me over the years [TS]

  with many great recommendations in the [TS]

  science fiction and fantasy genre is so [TS]

  I you know the the came with a good seal [TS]

  of approval on it so I picked them up [TS]

  and at the time you could actually get a [TS]

  lot of the the single volumes a lot of [TS]

  them have now been collected in Thomas's [TS]

  and a lot of single volumes i think are [TS]

  out of print or harder to get but I [TS]

  started reading i think i started with [TS]

  the actual first books in the series [TS]

  which at the time was an omnibus [TS]

  Cordelia's honor which collects the [TS]

  first two books shards of honor and bar [TS]

  ER and I I definitely started reading [TS]

  the first one and was a little not quite [TS]

  sucked in it felt very much like a [TS]

  traditional science fiction story to me [TS]

  and I was I was like okay this is all [TS]

  right i got sort of bag down halfway [TS]

  through and then I came back to it and [TS]

  really enjoyed it and finish it up and [TS]

  then I red bar which i think is is to me [TS]

  really got me sucked into the whole [TS]

  world that she's created here and and [TS]

  and then from then I was sort of often [TS]

  running and I devoured all of the books [TS]

  pretty rapidly which at the point at [TS]

  that point was all the way up to a civil [TS]

  campaign i believe and then not long [TS]

  after i finish the diplomatic community [TS]

  came out and then it was many many years [TS]

  until the most recent book cryo burn [TS]

  came out this past fall [TS]

  Scott is is a dance fault that you've [TS]

  read these books or did you discover [TS]

  them on your own and it is in fact [TS]

  dancehall we all blame you wow so he [TS]

  really is the the one who started all [TS]

  this for us his instigate a troublemaker [TS]

  it over at my memory of them is that I [TS]

  had some point made a vow to read all [TS]

  the hugo award-winning novels and [TS]

  discovered that there were all of these [TS]

  books that were part of a series and I [TS]

  thought to myself oh god I'm going to [TS]

  have to start reading a series and read [TS]

  a bunch of other books in the series in [TS]

  order to get to all the books that won [TS]

  the hugo award and so until then came [TS]

  out and said [TS]

  always my favorite you can read them and [TS]

  so now I've actually got them up bari [TS]

  are actually wanna hugo award and the [TS]

  four-game hitting four-game win at least [TS]

  one of them one egg yellow and where you [TS]

  go and the nebula as one of only a few i [TS]

  believe so [TS]

  so let's talk premise here first off [TS]

  because we haven't fired up the spoiler [TS]

  warning for those who don't know what [TS]

  the the Vorkosigan saga enjoy saying [TS]

  that is about it's a it's a sci-fi [TS]

  series is set in the future there are a [TS]

  whole bunch of different planets that [TS]

  the earth is around but it's kind of a [TS]

  backwater and we've got this is [TS]

  essentially the story of a family [TS]

  because the first two books RS are about [TS]

  the parents of who is really the guy who [TS]

  is the protagonist for most of the books [TS]

  with Miles Vorkosigan also that's [TS]

  important to note there are no real [TS]

  aliens no aliens and humans everyone is [TS]

  sort of started at Earth and spread and [TS]

  and humans have sprawled out words from [TS]

  their humans are the most alien of all [TS]

  if you look inside themselves and [TS]

  genetic creations and genetic mutations [TS]

  in the story progresses but it's [TS]

  definitely mostly humanoid if nothing [TS]

  else yes there are couple there are a [TS]

  couple of bodies i have to do with us [TS]

  qualities and a couple other mutations [TS]

  and and then the like but i think i [TS]

  think that's kind of what drew me to it [TS]

  is i think at the time I had burned out [TS]

  a lot on on aliens especially after you [TS]

  know being a fan things like Star Trek [TS]

  which which i still enjoy but you know [TS]

  the the sort of recurring problems with [TS]

  with sci-fi franchises in which aliens [TS]

  are look there people but they look kind [TS]

  of different [TS]

  they got funny foreheads or whatever [TS]

  yeah and so I kind of I I was very [TS]

  intrigued in this complicated you know [TS]

  it's sort of a space opera but it's got [TS]

  these really heavy elements drama one of [TS]

  the things I love sort of generally [TS]

  speaking is that she now bujold plays [TS]

  with Jean roulotte in that various books [TS]

  sort of delve in and out of other genres [TS]

  as well including things like romance [TS]

  mystery you know science fiction fantasy [TS]

  you know like I think it please the [TS]

  court there's some political is a lot of [TS]

  political injury [TS]

  especially in many of the later books [TS]

  and but at the edits heart it's it's an [TS]

  adventure story and I think that's kind [TS]

  of what i love is for me like that you [TS]

  know when especially with dealing with [TS]

  miles [TS]

  you've got this sort of very charismatic [TS]

  roguish central figure who goes on all [TS]

  these adventures and and sort of sweeps [TS]

  in and out of people's lives and and [TS]

  he's a lot of fun to follow Scott what [TS]

  what were your first impressions of this [TS]

  series as you as you read through [TS]

  because you've read obviously you didn't [TS]

  despise it is you you like me have read [TS]

  like eight of them now i have in pretty [TS]

  much one right after the other [TS]

  I i did take a break and read another [TS]

  book and then I go back into them [TS]

  I i thought when i first read about them [TS]

  after Dan mentioned them I was fairly [TS]

  certain that i wouldn't like them [TS]

  well I mean Dan mentioned them right [TS]

  swear that's a strike against it you [TS]

  have to wonder he like Star Wars but [TS]

  there is another time McNulty another [TS]

  problem last but I decided out of the [TS]

  shop because uh the the publisher bein [TS]

  had basically posted like 14 million of [TS]

  them for free on the internet right you [TS]

  could you can download almost except for [TS]

  one memory memory left by which i did [TS]

  already how they get you [TS]

  that's right they give away 10 books so [TS]

  you can buy one point four dollars [TS]

  brilliantly where it's hidden it did [TS]

  work it did they got my it it didn't i [TS]

  know that i couldn't buy it from amazon [TS]

  as an e-book I had to use their web [TS]

  scription thing but anyway that's [TS]

  another thing I so I i obviously i liked [TS]

  it and I continue to like it [TS]

  yeah I don't know why I didn't think i [TS]

  would like it mostly because I guess my [TS]

  default is that i will not like [TS]

  something new it's helping the criminals [TS]

  could be poisonous you never know it [TS]

  could be invested assets a new kindle [TS]

  and black [TS]

  that's right then i know i love it oh [TS]

  but I did enjoy it and I thought I think [TS]

  it was a nice kind of break from I've [TS]

  been reading a lot of kind of literary [TS]

  science fiction you know where authors [TS]

  are trying to do things and like the [TS]

  dream of perpetual motion [TS]

  collected over exactly which is not [TS]

  perhaps the easiest thing to read and [TS]

  the author is clearly trying to play [TS]

  with the genre a lot and the the [TS]

  concepts of fiction and doing a bunch of [TS]

  flashy writing and not to say that [TS]

  google is a is a bad writer because I [TS]

  think she's very good writer but she [TS]

  like Dan said at the base like at the [TS]

  bottom of these is just kind of a fun [TS]

  adventure story and then she weaves in a [TS]

  lot of very kind of interesting themes [TS]

  and ruminations on on things so that on [TS]

  you know a deeper level you can think [TS]

  about larger themes but if you don't [TS]

  really want to think you can just enjoy [TS]

  miles ruining other people's lives as he [TS]

  barrels through the universe [TS]

  she's never really hitting you over the [TS]

  head with anything you know just comes [TS]

  kind of comes naturally [TS]

  yeah i mean the the the the books are [TS]

  they are [TS]

  yeah they're not they're not flashy [TS]

  they're not showy but they are [TS]

  adventurous and to dance point the the [TS]

  the genre playing with the genres i [TS]

  really love the fact that you can have [TS]

  books that are essentially about some [TS]

  variation on human culture that sprung [TS]

  up on some crazy planet somewhere like [TS]

  the CD condoms who are our plate as the [TS]

  bad guys and then at a later point uh [TS]

  they you get to know more about them and [TS]

  they seem a little bit but they're still [TS]

  bad but they're bad in a very particular [TS]

  way [TS]

  yeah and I mean they're not black and [TS]

  white right exactly and then and then [TS]

  you've got the political intrigue at [TS]

  home which is interesting one of the [TS]

  things about this about this series [TS]

  that's fascinating to me is that is that [TS]

  uh you know to put it in the least [TS]

  spoilery terms possible that there are [TS]

  essentially two kind of tracks there's [TS]

  the track of the homeworld of the [TS]

  Vorkosigan which is barri are and it's a [TS]

  there's an emperor and there's political [TS]

  imaginations and there's power in the [TS]

  sort of a backstory there because they [TS]

  were cut off [TS]

  yeah from culture for a while and they [TS]

  sort of receded into sort of feudalism [TS]

  yeah journalism and then and then they [TS]

  were reconnected but then there's the [TS]

  kind of high adventure on the high seas [TS]

  part of it which is this interstellar [TS]

  like pirates and [TS]

  and-and-and boring sporting planets and [TS]

  and mercenaries and i think i'm all in [TS]

  that stay tuned and I think part of it [TS]

  you know one of the inspirations i think [TS]

  i recalled undecided are the the horatio [TS]

  hornblower novels which are sort of a [TS]

  Napoleonic war stories following this [TS]

  one particular guy who works in British [TS]

  naval officer and as he progresses [TS]

  through the ranks and becomes all these [TS]

  go through all these different [TS]

  adventures and interesting encounters [TS]

  and over the course of the wars and it's [TS]

  very follow the progression in the same [TS]

  way that the miles books do which is [TS]

  that they follow his wife except he's [TS]

  got the two sides of his life right and [TS]

  that that's an interesting Mona's that's [TS]

  an interesting quirk because it like it [TS]

  allows you like I found myself actually [TS]

  really liking what goes on in Bari are [TS]

  which I thought originally was going to [TS]

  be kind of a crushing bore and and it [TS]

  turns out that sometimes I'm like I [TS]

  think possibly because i read the series [TS]

  chronologically which not everybody does [TS]

  she actually wrote them way out of order [TS]

  chronologically but having read them [TS]

  chronologically you start with his [TS]

  parents and you start on Bari are after [TS]

  the you know in that second book and I [TS]

  felt kind of tied to Bari are at that [TS]

  point so when they get the high [TS]

  adventure on the universe that's fun but [TS]

  I'm almost like you know I come what's [TS]

  the political intrigue going on back [TS]

  home [TS]

  see it's funny because i started with [TS]

  warriors apprentice which is the first [TS]

  book with miles [TS]

  it's a Republican mr. exactly which [TS]

  starts kind of interstellar high space [TS]

  travel fund debauchery everything and so [TS]

  when I watch hurry there's a little bit [TS]

  of debauchery here and there I was going [TS]

  to say pg-13 [TS]

  yeah she 13 debauchery but I'm sure [TS]

  sighs there's a certain point in the [TS]

  series where it takes a turn away from [TS]

  the interstellar space travel and when i [TS]

  first realized that I'm like oh no but [TS]

  bahria reminds me of robert jordan [TS]

  novels I don't want to go there and I [TS]

  was yeah I i often and i've i've made a [TS]

  number of people beyond just [TS]

  incomparable related people read this [TS]

  series you made them you made them ice [TS]

  trailers down i've written long work [TS]

  orange he sort of like a personal [TS]

  trainer for books exactly [TS]

  no I recommended to many people and I [TS]

  often recommend people start with the [TS]

  Warriors apprentice because i think it's [TS]

  more indicative of the series as a whole [TS]

  and that's kind of tough because i think [TS]

  you you learn a lot if you start at the [TS]

  beginning there's a lot of foundation [TS]

  set that becomes important later on [TS]

  there are callbacks to you know bar ER [TS]

  and and charge of honor and all the [TS]

  stuff that you learn in there really [TS]

  plays very heavily into area and goes [TS]

  you don't need to know it but it adds [TS]

  you a hole deeper level of understanding [TS]

  if you have read those verses i really [TS]

  like Cordelia's I don't think it would [TS]

  work as well if i just read shards of [TS]

  honor which is the first book but as an [TS]

  omnibus with both of them together I [TS]

  need I really worked for me for going to [TS]

  read one you have to read both begin I [TS]

  think they really they're two halves of [TS]

  the same sort of funny since she didn't [TS]

  write them in order she she wrote part [TS]

  of the second one and then gave it up [TS]

  and wrote the Warriors credits instead [TS]

  right and then came back to it much [TS]

  later but it as an omnibus edition it [TS]

  reads a it reads really well yes and in [TS]

  some ways I feel like shards of honor to [TS]

  meet its feels kind of abrupt as an [TS]

  ending as they are at least I when I [TS]

  read it I felt very much like a the [TS]

  story is just getting started [TS]

  I think I might have actually read that [TS]

  as a kid because I when I was in high [TS]

  school I subscribe to analog magazine [TS]

  and I think it may have actually been [TS]

  serialized there because it seems sort [TS]

  of familiar [TS]

  although there are other sci-fi series [TS]

  like like that where the you know the [TS]

  earth cultures have spread out and there [TS]

  aren't really any aliens or there aren't [TS]

  very many errands you know the the john [TS]

  barnes has a serious the the thousand [TS]

  cultures or million open doors i think [TS]

  is the name of the first book in that [TS]

  series and you know there are some [TS]

  others so it seems kind of familiar but [TS]

  you know that that that even that early [TS]

  book kept me guessing because i thought [TS]

  i was going to see a story that was [TS]

  about the two characters kind of walking [TS]

  across the desert and surviving for the [TS]

  whole book and that's like four chapters [TS]

  and there they did their found something [TS]

  that I really love about the way lost [TS]

  metric visual structures her novels is [TS]

  that with a lot of novels that you read [TS]

  you know there's a crises of some kind [TS]

  like all the characters get trapped here [TS]

  or there imprisoned or something like [TS]

  that and you expect a normal lovelier I [TS]

  alright that's going to be two-thirds of [TS]

  the novel and then you know that's going [TS]

  to lead all the way up to the end she [TS]

  loves putting her character [TS]

  as in crazy situations and then [TS]

  immediately resolving the situation and [TS]

  dealing with the aftermath and that kind [TS]

  of carries on over a bunch of different [TS]

  books I found that really fascinating [TS]

  because you you expect something and [TS]

  then you get completely thrown off track [TS]

  to a different place and it makes the [TS]

  reading very enjoyable [TS]

  what say you Scott bar ER or high [TS]

  universe adventure or do you come down [TS]

  on either side of that I i enjoy both i [TS]

  think i would come down on Bari are a [TS]

  little bit more and it just because I [TS]

  like all those characters more than I [TS]

  like the the mercenary band a little [TS]

  more fleshed out there more more good [TS]

  characters i think on Bari are where the [TS]

  mercenary to come out of there are few [TS]

  but they kind of cycle through them and [TS]

  bar you've got that complex kind of [TS]

  society and you got the Emperor who is [TS]

  actually a fascinating you know great [TS]

  character the internet that you every I [TS]

  mean how many books do you read or [TS]

  movies you see where there's an emperor [TS]

  and you know that the absolute power is [TS]

  going to corrupt him and he starts out [TS]

  as a kid and you know God he's going to [TS]

  be a monster and one of the interesting [TS]

  things about the Emperor Gregor and in [TS]

  this series is he's a guy you know and [TS]

  he's got his flaws but but you know I i [TS]

  haven't read through you know memory you [TS]

  know he they could have gone down that [TS]

  route and there's actually a moment in [TS]

  one of the earlier books where he gets [TS]

  bad advice and you're like oh geez it's [TS]

  gonna be bad but no it's it's not about [TS]

  it's not it's not quite down that path [TS]

  it's more complicated than that right [TS]

  and you have to have our monstrous [TS]

  royalty character right there earlier on [TS]

  right and yes to live them down [TS]

  you mean I want to speak to you know [TS]

  sort of branching off from from greater [TS]

  there which the thing that makes these [TS]

  books so good and so addictive really to [TS]

  me in terms of like coming back to them [TS]

  and you know not being able to put them [TS]

  down is the characters and I think that [TS]

  is too far away old strong suit is [TS]

  creating characters who are you feel [TS]

  real you know who for who are fleshed [TS]

  out who are three-dimensional even-even [TS]

  characters who seem like minor [TS]

  characters will see my caricatures turn [TS]

  out to have a lot of depth and reality [TS]

  to them [TS]

  and even if they're not the characters [TS]

  on whom the the spotlight shines so much [TS]

  of the attention focuses on miles and he [TS]

  is a fascinating and wonderful character [TS]

  but so many of the supporting cast like [TS]

  Gregor who is not he's not he's gets you [TS]

  know push the forefront and a couple of [TS]

  the stories but a lot of he only appears [TS]

  maybe in a few scenes but he there's [TS]

  something about so many of the [TS]

  characters that when they show up [TS]

  further down the road you always you [TS]

  have a kind of us a fond memory of them [TS]

  and you're glad to see them and I think [TS]

  she said at one point something like [TS]

  people always you know we're asking her [TS]

  every time you put out book but what [TS]

  about this character and what about this [TS]

  case you know if I put in all the [TS]

  characters that people want to see this [TS]

  book would be like a thousand pages walk [TS]

  right I'm meanwhile at the polar station [TS]

  on Bari our guy that you had before is [TS]

  cleaning out of terrain that got my job [TS]

  was on saying he's gonna favorite [TS]

  character they all have such unique [TS]

  devilishly fun voices though you know I [TS]

  mean as you said even the minor [TS]

  characters there on pick another [TS]

  onscreen for maybe a couple pages and [TS]

  you know exactly who they are that you [TS]

  know exactly [TS]

  there's never any dialogue conversation [TS]

  between like miles and one of the other [TS]

  characters that sounds like it's if you [TS]

  close your eyes you couldn't tell which [TS]

  person was speaking you know that they [TS]

  all have very distinct characteristics [TS]

  if you read a line of dialogue from the [TS]

  book without telling you who it is i bet [TS]

  it would be much easier to figure out [TS]

  which character was speaking than say [TS]

  from another non for goes again novel it [TS]

  sure helps that that you have this many [TS]

  books to tell the story because you do [TS]

  get to sort of weave them in and out and [TS]

  they do feel sort of like old friends [TS]

  after a while they don't need watching a [TS]

  TV show when you're right here in [TS]

  character comes back here like that guy [TS]

  like yeah right right drain cleaner yeah [TS]

  you don't need six months you can just [TS]

  you know youyou 66 chapters with the guy [TS]

  you can you can drop in here and then [TS]

  there and and and you know whether it is [TS]

  Miles poor cousin eivin I you know [TS]

  because i love is wonderful is very [TS]

  charming and and does terry has terrible [TS]

  things done to him by miles because he's [TS]

  family and even though he knows he's [TS]

  going to get in trouble and 10 miles [TS]

  parents who you know obviously carry two [TS]

  books all on their own Gregory the [TS]

  Emperor and then in the in the mercenary [TS]

  fleet you've got a couple characters [TS]

  there too or who are who actually some [TS]

  of whom seemed initially to be not that [TS]

  important who this is this is a cannon [TS]

  fodder character who ends up becoming an [TS]

  incredibly important character later on [TS]

  so so there's there's lots of there's [TS]

  lots of that although when you talk [TS]

  about really well-defined characters [TS]

  let's talk first about the character of [TS]

  miles because miles is the one character [TS]

  who he died I guess buddy consistent or [TS]

  is he just kind of outrageous and I feel [TS]

  like in later books in later books he [TS]

  gets some self-awareness but early on he [TS]

  just is always a mess he's all over the [TS]

  place well I mean my favorite phrase to [TS]

  describe him and I can't remember which [TS]

  which character others it might be Ivan [TS]

  my free you know every you cannot think [TS]

  of them without the game as the [TS]

  hyperactive little get which to me [TS]

  suggests totally totally sums him up in [TS]

  that you know we talked about all these [TS]

  other characters but in many ways the [TS]

  other characters are to a certain extent [TS]

  defined by their interactions with milas [TS]

  like you some way dt bangs around and [TS]

  bounces off of them and changes them in [TS]

  ways am and he really is he's them in [TS]

  some ways and this will be you know [TS]

  maybe perhaps somewhat of an ironic turn [TS]

  of phrase he's larger than life and and [TS]

  intentionally so I mean I think and I [TS]

  don't know if anybody has ever read [TS]

  Dorothy stairs Lord Peter Wimsey novels [TS]

  but i believe this is a classic 1930s [TS]

  detective series are about a nobleman [TS]

  who solves mysteries and it was the [TS]

  nineteen-thirties Scott metrics while I [TS]

  mean it has a new york [TS]

  yes is actually written in the nineteen [TS]

  thirties I'm a great and incidentally a [TS]

  great series and and lord peter is I i [TS]

  believe one of the inspirations for [TS]

  miles and that he's kind of he's a [TS]

  nobleman are idle rich character who [TS]

  solves mysteries very smart man but he [TS]

  looks deceptively like everyone kind of [TS]

  pass him off as a oh he's just you know [TS]

  a fluffy guy [TS]

  I was going to mention i think that [TS]

  miles is my least favorite character in [TS]

  this series just because he annoys me [TS]

  more often than not [TS]

  yeah bye I was gonna say the same thing [TS]

  I so good so good for you could mistake [TS]

  it's good to be your you're nice and [TS]

  provocative or more or less polite to me [TS]

  it's good [TS]

  well there you go i 5 it like especially [TS]

  the way he treats I've been always [TS]

  annoys me because I've it is not doing [TS]

  anything wrong he always does with miles [TS]

  s him to do but miles is always fairly [TS]

  nasty to him in his in inner monologue [TS]

  which i think is not for a nice he [TS]

  doesn't run you might just seem to start [TS]

  to grow up I mean you've read it as far [TS]

  as I have an in-memory actually in many [TS]

  ways [TS]

  dan was pointing out that the synopsis [TS]

  of that book is really miles its 1330 [TS]

  hits back i love that is my favorite [TS]

  long time and and eat there is a sense [TS]

  that that I'm you know he has to grow up [TS]

  a little bit and and not be doing all [TS]

  the stupid stuff that he did when he was [TS]

  in his twenties in these other books [TS]

  right i mean he does he get some depth [TS]

  he grows some depth because he's got [TS]

  some complications that make him not as [TS]

  a fantastic a person as as he used to be [TS]

  and he continues to grow throughout the [TS]

  series one of the things i like now you [TS]

  still didn't like him in memory so now [TS]

  didn't really like it maybe only come in [TS]

  the next 18 books and actually had a [TS]

  baby that maybe you'll find this helpful [TS]

  I started thinking and and horatio [TS]

  hornblower is the perfect connection [TS]

  here because Captain Kirk was based on [TS]

  Horatio Hornblower to and there are [TS]

  scenes especially when miles is with a [TS]

  mercenary fleet where I can't help but [TS]

  thinking of him as Captain Kirk from the [TS]

  original star trek from then that [TS]

  dynamic I've got a I've got a crazy idea [TS]

  but it just might work and he's and [TS]

  everybody else is looking around like [TS]

  what do you mean corbomite that doesn't [TS]

  made-up thing are you telling the alien [TS]

  captain that we have a corporate my [TS]

  device that's going to destroy a ship [TS]

  and curse like I got this [TS]

  nobody worried and my and miles that I [TS]

  think maybe more than any other [TS]

  character in any other book I've ever [TS]

  read reminded me of that classic which [TS]

  my favorite TV show is a kid Captain [TS]

  Kirk that classic kind of roguish but [TS]

  smart but in a weird kind of way and and [TS]

  men and a loose cannon he's kind of his [TS]

  kind of the doctor to write like to a [TS]

  certain extent [TS]

  I don't know I don't know about that he [TS]

  really i think i think there's a lot of [TS]

  similarities between those two [TS]

  characters in terms of they're both [TS]

  extremely smart he's Harry Potter the [TS]

  doctor and Captain Kirk well what he's [TS]

  he's really smart he's kind of [TS]

  hyperactive you know he's always got a [TS]

  plan got an idea [TS]

  I mean you know and everybody else is [TS]

  sort of caught up in his whirlwind right [TS]

  there there's an element of that too it [TS]

  to him that really it depends on point [TS]

  of view I think because i think it's [TS]

  really interesting in the first couple [TS]

  novels were basically entirely centered [TS]

  around miles and no one else really gets [TS]

  any chance to speak point of view and we [TS]

  get to hear his inner monologue all the [TS]

  damn time whereas in the later books we [TS]

  start getting other characters as they [TS]

  see miles and as they see the situation [TS]

  there's a couple like mike wynn yes [TS]

  right the the captain of the of the [TS]

  fleet and his his one-time girlfriend [TS]

  got a minor minor spoilers [TS]

  oh no she she she has a very particular [TS]

  view and she's got a lot of respect and [TS]

  love for him but boy when you see him [TS]

  through her icy easy [TS]

  he's a he's a mess and he's a problem [TS]

  and yeah you know he ruins things right [TS]

  well I think it really depends the [TS]

  characterization depending on whose [TS]

  point of view you're paying attention to [TS]

  because I mean you get to the later [TS]

  books and one of one of the characters [TS]

  causes miles to continue say unpack [TS]

  ok I have to unpack because all of a [TS]

  sudden were not hearing miles you know [TS]

  for your conscience and steps that has [TS]

  exactly right which will hear in the [TS]

  earlier books because we get to see all [TS]

  of his stream of consciousness but in [TS]

  the later books were not following him [TS]

  what are you talking exactly where is [TS]

  confused as he is what did you not like [TS]

  my captain kirk language you not like [TS]

  Captain Kirk either is he kind of a jerk [TS]

  too [TS]

  well I really think about a captain kirk [TS]

  is kind of a jerk but i do like Captain [TS]

  Kirk I don't know why I just miles just [TS]

  rubs me the wrong way and maybe in later [TS]

  novels he will rub me the right way [TS]

  which doesn't sound nice but I see what [TS]

  you're saying know that that it anyway [TS]

  okay it is not yeah a destructive force [TS]

  yes and he certainly is a perfect plot [TS]

  device to drive forward a story because [TS]

  he just doesn't stop [TS]

  and it would he is a very interesting [TS]

  character and I I don't hate him but I [TS]

  just think that he isn't [TS]

  if he were real I would not want to know [TS]

  why and I think i agree with that [TS]

  certainly don't know if Miles Vorkosigan [TS]

  pull this starship into my space station [TS]

  I'd be like I got the thing i'm taking [TS]

  my leave now I'm going into the other [TS]

  side of the galaxy [TS]

  I'll be back if you're still alive I'll [TS]

  be back in a few years but goodbye good [TS]

  luck with with this guy [TS]

  what well the interesting thing about [TS]

  miles is that that combination of the [TS]

  fact that he is brilliant and he is a UH [TS]

  a loose cannon but he's also got Dan [TS]

  alluded to it two at a physical [TS]

  disability he he is short [TS]

  he's like five feet tall in a in a in a [TS]

  UH culture back on Bari are that is [TS]

  basically a aborted or killed all of all [TS]

  children or babies that showed any [TS]

  physical deformity when they were in [TS]

  their feudal period so he is you know [TS]

  he's alive because his mother basically [TS]

  said what we're going to save him but he [TS]

  is he is unlike everybody else in his [TS]

  culture and they all look down on him [TS]

  and then he's also taken for granted [TS]

  really even out in the wider world [TS]

  because he is he's kind of a hunchback [TS]

  and he's short and although his he has [TS]

  medical procedures that make him you [TS]

  know slightly taller overtime but he's [TS]

  also he's also extremely fragile right [TS]

  he can't always got a little brown this [TS]

  weekend is a giant head and also have to [TS]

  fight anybody is not physically imposing [TS]

  person that has become the first book [TS]

  starts with him basically getting [TS]

  drummed out of the military military [TS]

  which is his you know he's trying to [TS]

  live up to his father who is this great [TS]

  soldier like the ideal soldier so [TS]

  possibly going so he goes over the [TS]

  obstacle course knowing that when he [TS]

  jumps down the other side is going to [TS]

  shatter both the bones and all the bones [TS]

  in his legs and and he does thank you [TS]

  for mentioning his grandfather who is [TS]

  yet another great minor character that [TS]

  is somewhat questionable economic [TS]

  forecast yes do you like him do you not [TS]

  like him but he is fascinating character [TS]

  I don't I really quite he is and any is [TS]

  consistent right i mean you've actually [TS]

  later find out more things about how [TS]

  terrible he terrible things he did at [TS]

  one point when miles was young yes but [TS]

  he's at some point also not I you know [TS]

  hehe has depth to him after on iPod [TS]

  miles how to ride a horse [TS]

  yeah I find it fascinating i don't know [TS]

  how much he's in [TS]

  first two books pre miles because i [TS]

  still haven't read those too but even I [TS]

  mean he's barely in the first book is a [TS]

  barrier yeah he's barely in the first [TS]

  book but you still get a tremendous [TS]

  sense of the characters one how [TS]

  important yet is that where this whole [TS]

  two miles and has whole like heritage [TS]

  and everything like he is often held up [TS]

  as that ideal like both his father and [TS]

  his grandfather is that ideal that miles [TS]

  has do like basically the rest of the [TS]

  entire like series is to a certain [TS]

  extent miles trying to live up to this [TS]

  is your grandfather both of them to both [TS]

  his father and his grandfather and and [TS]

  yet he can't in the way that they you [TS]

  know he can't follow their footsteps but [TS]

  he tried he does try to make his mark in [TS]

  his own way again just rides too long [TS]

  yeah cool went Wow and his grandfather [TS]

  was on a horse so that makes it hard to [TS]

  follow double stride nobody he learned [TS]

  how to how to how to ride a horse and no [TS]

  the grandfather is a very interesting [TS]

  character and there's that whole [TS]

  feudalism thing to worry the count goes [TS]

  again I'm using side note that the [TS]

  counts on Barry are were named for [TS]

  because they were accounts at one point [TS]

  that I that kills me that they would I [TS]

  thought that was for their part of the [TS]

  bureaucracy and the account so no not [TS]

  like counts back on earth where there [TS]

  was just the accountants and then [TS]

  there's Lord for code again and then [TS]

  when his grandfather dies his father [TS]

  becomes Lordan or becomes count and he [TS]

  becomes Lord for clothes again [TS]

  yes and there's a whole honor system [TS]

  there which is interesting and then when [TS]

  he goes out in the wider wider galaxy [TS]

  they don't really get the whole honor [TS]

  system which is fascinating to and yet [TS]

  because I word is 4 ko's again what huh [TS]

  right i mean he's kind of almost a [TS]

  fantasy character to ascertain exactly [TS]

  talking science fiction units that's a [TS]

  great way to look at absolutely [TS]

  well that's why like I was initially [TS]

  wary of the whole bar ER section because [TS]

  it's kind of like I don't know about fan [TS]

  only got a nineteenth-century that's a [TS]

  really good yeah but it's a really good [TS]

  book [TS]

  no but all the thing is the thing is [TS]

  though well yeah I haven't read i [TS]

  haven't read those books but I it's on [TS]

  my list after i created the end but no I [TS]

  mean once once we get back to yes i will [TS]

  once we get back to our ER with miles [TS]

  I like it took me about two chapters and [TS]

  then I was completely sold where you get [TS]

  you get this you get the greater sense [TS]

  like initially you have the weariness [TS]

  ok you don't like feudal worlds with [TS]

  high technology this is going to be [TS]

  strange but there's a there's a great [TS]

  short stories about the mountains of [TS]

  mourning i think is better the first the [TS]

  first short story and that one you know [TS]

  again I went into it really kind of [TS]

  skeptical or it's like okay this is [TS]

  completely different this is very back [TS]

  world as opposed to the hijinks that we [TS]

  have been reading in in four game and [TS]

  stuff like that right beside in space [TS]

  and it's not in the big city with the [TS]

  spaceport it's like out in the mountains [TS]

  there are no checks with healthy and [TS]

  which is in his little Eiffel and [TS]

  there's no battery [TS]

  yes there is no debashree whatsoever [TS]

  night but maybe a murderer but not even [TS]

  running water basically this yeah caves [TS]

  well it gives it gives you a very kind [TS]

  of Little House on the Prairie type feel [TS]

  which but again you know you find [TS]

  yourself being completely in trapped [TS]

  with these characters where even though [TS]

  I mean this short story can't be more I [TS]

  don't read it on on ibooks so I can't [TS]

  imagine it's that long a story but even [TS]

  with the limited page count these [TS]

  characters are wildly vivid and have a [TS]

  great story to tell and you get [TS]

  completely enraptured in them and you [TS]

  get the the sense to about what miles is [TS]

  up against because then that is a story [TS]

  about and infanticide in it and it's [TS]

  about that barrier and culture that you [TS]

  know by all rights should have as his [TS]

  grandfather would have advocated should [TS]

  have killed miles when he was born so [TS]

  that he couldn't pass on his his [TS]

  mutation which he actually doesn't have [TS]

  as i'd like to point out is actually [TS]

  genetically find it was just an injured [TS]

  utero complication commonality x-rite [TS]

  yep that's true attempted assassination [TS]

  not not a mutant it okay I'm gonna fire [TS]

  off the spoiler warning now [TS]

  not the spoiler spoiler flag on fire [TS]

  laughter spoiler horn because i wanted [TS]

  to mention one of the interesting things [TS]

  that happens midway through the series [TS]

  mom which is the fact that there's a so [TS]

  miles is live living a double life he is [TS]

  Admiral Naismith and he is Lord for [TS]

  coach again right i think it starts off [TS]

  by accident people and yeah but it [TS]

  becomes useful and so that the the [TS]

  Secret Service says yeah we're going to [TS]

  find you sort of and you're gonna do [TS]

  this so he's leading a double life it [TS]

  seems a little implausible and then we [TS]

  get to mirror dance right we're all of a [TS]

  sudden he he's he's in the same place at [TS]

  the same time everybody's gonna start [TS]

  putting it together and you think well [TS]

  miles how are you going to get out of [TS]

  this one it's finally going to collapse [TS]

  on you accept [TS]

  oh he does have a double bond o has been [TS]

  raised by komaram terrorists to replace [TS]

  them in some crazy scheme to depose the [TS]

  Emperor and what I love about all of [TS]

  that is that it was your standard TV [TS]

  response to that would be that you kill [TS]

  the twin right right at the end of the [TS]

  story right and instead there's like [TS]

  whole books with the twin immediately [TS]

  following right Martin becomes a very [TS]

  important character and I fascinating [TS]

  character as well so how great how great [TS]

  is that that they that she went down [TS]

  this kind of crazy premier dance I love [TS]

  that book because it is so crazy that [TS]

  it's like ok they're gonna deal with it [TS]

  opened his buddies got a real double and [TS]

  now the double is being him and now his [TS]

  double is being his double and they [TS]

  don't realize for a while that it's the [TS]

  same guy and it's been how it [TS]

  I couldn't believe it because it is such [TS]

  a vivid departure stylistically because [TS]

  that's like a footrace farcical well and [TS]

  it becomes all moved to the certain [TS]

  point maintaining that double identity [TS]

  you know despite the fact that it seems [TS]

  like oh by the skin of their teeth right [TS]

  they managed to maintain it and then [TS]

  almost immediately [TS]

  that's undone in the beginning of memory [TS]

  when you know basically miles that in a [TS]

  scene that is horrific and yet kind of [TS]

  funny at the same time miles basically [TS]

  eat i want to exactly shoot himself in [TS]

  the foot but maybe shoot someone else [TS]

  chop somebody's late I mean what kind of [TS]

  accident or who hasn't done that whoever [TS]

  does not mean and all the sudden [TS]

  everything that you've worked so hard to [TS]

  maintain this one's a life is kind of [TS]

  pull the rug out basically pulled out [TS]

  from under it but it's it's only pulled [TS]

  out from under him because he lies about [TS]

  it [TS]

  well yes and again because he's a jerk [TS]

  like yes it is entirely flawed character [TS]

  so here it is mirrored dance the book [TS]

  where we meet [TS]

  no brothers-in-arms brothers-in-arms the [TS]

  book where we meet him and that's in in [TS]

  england right that's on earth router [TS]

  yeah mirror dance is the book where [TS]

  miles is killed in action [TS]

  yes it on ice lost yes and against [TS]

  because my demonstration against mirror [TS]

  dance and memory are kind of tight FRA [TS]

  memory and a silly campaign which most [TS]

  of you have not read i love this whole [TS]

  campaign that brothers-in-arms mirror [TS]

  dance memory that those three are so [TS]

  great because because you you Haley [TS]

  miles off the stage and bringing the [TS]

  clone there's the crazy clone kind of [TS]

  driving gets locked in a closet yeah [TS]

  making hostage Yeah Yeah right and then [TS]

  when they don't kill me don't kill mark [TS]

  his clone and in fact mark becomes [TS]

  vitally important because the only miles [TS]

  that's active at that moment because the [TS]

  other miles has been killed frozen and [TS]

  lost [TS]

  yes that's the first time you really get [TS]

  more sleep Cordelia and in in Bari are [TS]

  not in the first two books like you [TS]

  really get a chance to see miles as [TS]

  parents learned how important her [TS]

  his parents were offering you get to see [TS]

  what happens if miles was brought up [TS]

  without his parents i'm here like he had [TS]

  bad thing I i admit i'm actually one of [TS]

  the things that disappoints me about the [TS]

  series is that after the first two books [TS]

  there isn't more of his parents because [TS]

  his parents are fascinating characters [TS]

  on their own right and they and they [TS]

  carried a couple of books over you know [TS]

  but but miles is such a larger-than-life [TS]

  kind of characters not really room in [TS]

  some ways right meds as major characters [TS]

  but they do play very important parts [TS]

  there they play very important parts in [TS]

  a couple at least one of the other books [TS]

  she can always go back home and write [TS]

  something that inserts in between [TS]

  she's talked about it yeah but i think [TS]

  that hole that's the point where it [TS]

  shifts and again it's appropriate sort [TS]

  of that that's my leading 30 it's a [TS]

  major turning [TS]

  point and it the mirror dance sort of [TS]

  inform and and memory which is the [TS]

  aftermath is Wren was saying before you [TS]

  know of this terrible sort of a huge the [TS]

  sort of our comes to end with memory and [TS]

  and in starting in memory the whole [TS]

  identity miles is hold identity gets [TS]

  shifted you know with the the wood the [TS]

  Admiral Naismith persona basically you [TS]

  know consigned to the dustbin in some [TS]

  ways and that's sort of carried forward [TS]

  from there as he and his new role you [TS]

  know sort of adapts to well-being doing [TS]

  back on Bari or in part of the barrio [TS]

  culture in many ways i gotta say again [TS]

  with the transition to bear when I first [TS]

  found out what memory was about because [TS]

  i couldn't get it because it was only [TS]

  one with this group is always like oh [TS]

  sure yeah it's like there's ok i'll read [TS]

  that I'll read the paragraph on [TS]

  wikipedia and then go to the next book [TS]

  and i start i get a chapter into the [TS]

  next book I'm kind of horrified and I'm [TS]

  like wait no no names with what's going [TS]

  on I can't handle it can you can you put [TS]

  no I see you guys get the book i was and [TS]

  and that's what happens when you don't [TS]

  pay for right now it's just a lesson and [TS]

  it was and it was and I went immediately [TS]

  after reading about a chapter I was like [TS]

  okay I can't do this so I went and I [TS]

  found it on web scription or rather i [TS]

  had Dan find it for me on web scription [TS]

  and then downloaded it and read it all I [TS]

  will tell you a funny story my cousin [TS]

  recommended to this to me had read all [TS]

  of them and somehow had missed memory i [TS]

  guess and then later found it oh my god [TS]

  for causing a book i haven't read and [TS]

  went in and she's like now it's my [TS]

  favorite is i love it but it's like at [TS]

  the time it was like yeah i know i [TS]

  missed something but I couldn't quite [TS]

  figure out things different memory [TS]

  memory and you know nice kind of a that [TS]

  title right because miles has some [TS]

  serious kind of aftermath of his because [TS]

  happy somebody's legs having died and [TS]

  been frozen and then misplaced in the [TS]

  FedEx interstellar fedex system happens [TS]

  it does you know you don't fill out the [TS]

  bill right and it goes to some crazy [TS]

  planet some crazy crazy planet so some [TS]

  so there's that and then there's the [TS]

  whole this this other minor character [TS]

  who's Simon ilion excitement and he has [TS]

  a malfunctioning memory chip of his own [TS]

  and chip students not inside my head [TS]

  side and I always takes with me [TS]

  yeah and and that has huge ramifications [TS]

  for everything that's happening barrier [TS]

  and what miles is good for any more and [TS]

  and yeah 30 hits back but it's it's it's [TS]

  great because at that point you've [TS]

  invested so much in the series that [TS]

  scene changes in like the format of the [TS]

  series is exciting and it's such an [TS]

  orthogonal change in some ways right [TS]

  because you kind of feel like alright [TS]

  Myles got sidetracked he didn't get to [TS]

  go into the military so we sort of goes [TS]

  off on his arm and informs his own [TS]

  mercenary group and then it's also sort [TS]

  of working his way up through the [TS]

  security forces at the same time you [TS]

  think oh well you know so it's natural [TS]

  progression might be someday he'll end [TS]

  up in charge of the security forces or [TS]

  whatever and then all the sudden that [TS]

  takes like a left turn gets kicked out [TS]

  right any kind of you know being miles [TS]

  figures out a loophole and ona and an [TS]

  opening somewhere for handwriting and [TS]

  then gets offered the job and doesn't [TS]

  take it right but anyways to she sings [TS]

  she zigs when you think right you should [TS]

  brush heads AG which is great again [TS]

  excited that he is he is find something [TS]

  he finds his calling in life I think [TS]

  finally despite all these sort of you [TS]

  know great opportunities he's taken [TS]

  along the way these jobs i think [TS]

  ultimately he finds the position that [TS]

  that he is perfectly suited for which is [TS]

  the sort of official troublemaker [TS]

  that's true and i did like memory but I [TS]

  thought that it was a like within you [TS]

  know three chapters of reading it I knew [TS]

  who did it and I knew what was gonna [TS]

  happen at the end so i was little i mean [TS]

  it's definitely more straightforward a [TS]

  mystery than some of the other things [TS]

  like especially something off mirrored [TS]

  and there was a red herring you know [TS]

  there was it was sort of an A or B or C [TS]

  I guess there may be a couple red [TS]

  herrings right at the same time I [TS]

  thought it was so obvious that it [TS]

  couldn't have been the answer and it [TS]

  actually was the ah that's that's what [TS]

  she was going to be out so and then i [TS]

  guess i guess to me the plot was not the [TS]

  central part that interact much out of [TS]

  character it's about that [TS]

  introducing himself back to barrio [TS]

  that's my guess is Scott Scott McNulty [TS]

  the last Judge Scott McNulty has ruled [TS]

  all right i'll be going out [TS]

  ok here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna [TS]

  I'm gonna fire off the all clear because [TS]

  we have a little bit more time but I [TS]

  wanted to I wanted to bring back a few [TS]

  things for people who are not [TS]

  necessarily indoctrinated with the [TS]

  entire for cosine series 11 order of [TS]

  business is the reading order which I [TS]

  wanted to ask everybody about and [TS]

  especially Dan who's so well-versed in [TS]

  this and ran who did it who did it in a [TS]

  different order any idea about how would [TS]

  you advise people read this series where [TS]

  do you start if you haven't read any of [TS]

  these books and you're intrigued by what [TS]

  we've said where do you start [TS]

  if you're already intrigued and you know [TS]

  i think i said i recommend the wordpress [TS]

  a lot of people that's because sometimes [TS]

  I have you know it's difficult to sell [TS]

  people on it and definitely more of an [TS]

  adventure ebook and I think it a lot of [TS]

  people get into it faster that way but [TS]

  you know if you're already kind of [TS]

  intrigued and looking at try it out I [TS]

  say start at the beginning [TS]

  Cordelia's honor de correos on art of [TS]

  honor whatever you can find them and [TS]

  start and go through chronologically [TS]

  because i think you get much more out of [TS]

  it reading everything in order and that [TS]

  includes there are three or four short [TS]

  stories that are sort of sprinkled in [TS]

  between but comet specific places and [TS]

  it's important I think to read them in [TS]

  those specific places because they play [TS]

  very heavily into what some of the [TS]

  subsequent stories are about and when i [TS]

  read it unfortunately i tried to sort of [TS]

  do that because the short stories have [TS]

  been collected into a volume called [TS]

  borders of infinity which is also the [TS]

  name of one of the short stories in the [TS]

  volume which is confusing [TS]

  I'm gonna need a shirt yes and in fact [TS]

  to make it more confusing that short [TS]

  story collection has a framing story [TS]

  that that connects those three short [TS]

  stories which is of miles in a hospital [TS]

  bed sort of relating these stories to [TS]

  Simon alien and but the problem same [TS]

  time solving a mystery there is a plot [TS]

  to the framing story however it's very [TS]

  you [TS]

  I think it's very hard to find that [TS]

  short story collection as it is because [TS]

  the short stories have now been folded [TS]

  into the omnibuses in the correct [TS]

  chronological ride just do that you'll [TS]

  miss out on that famous story but [TS]

  honestly it's not so important that it [TS]

  will play on top of that the framing [TS]

  story actually come [TS]

  after brothers-in-arms I mean yeah it's [TS]

  serious it's very to hear so I tried to [TS]

  read them jumping back and forth [TS]

  literally like I would put down one book [TS]

  alright let me read this starts right [TS]

  ok let me go to this other book alright [TS]

  let me go back to the short wait but I [TS]

  had start being the shortest here this [TS]

  is why the Omnibus collection is [TS]

  probably the best idea I was highly [TS]

  recommend the emphasis on a because [TS]

  they're easy to find because they put [TS]

  things in the correct order and see [TS]

  because i don't think you can get a lot [TS]

  of other than the ebook format i don't [TS]

  think you can get a lot of the single [TS]

  volumes in print and and ran you so [TS]

  you've read them and in i skipped over [TS]

  the initial i skipped over the initial [TS]

  to but apart from that I've read them in [TS]

  chronological order as best as I could I [TS]

  short stories I will reiterate are [TS]

  really important and there are two books [TS]

  I think either ethan of athos and [TS]

  calling free which are not miles centric [TS]

  and of the latter one falling free is [TS]

  not even characters we know centric [TS]

  because it's set 200 years in the past [TS]

  and those two initially seemed like oh [TS]

  those are easy ones to skip over because [TS]

  they don't directly relate to the plot [TS]

  but falling free really focuses on [TS]

  something that's going to happen in the [TS]

  brunette what because that is a simple [TS]

  diplomatic diplomatic immunity and [TS]

  that's I feel like that's really [TS]

  important for diplomatic i have not read [TS]

  forward yes I know why I'm shred I had a [TS]

  40 second book that Dan Morgan has not [TS]

  which I really hilarious did it is it is [TS]

  well so i'll say this i wish i hadn't [TS]

  read ethan of athos because it's crappy [TS]

  it's it's a little weird but I but at [TS]

  the same time I argue that boy it has [TS]

  backstory to to him [TS]

  yeah a little bit of Quinn Quinn which I [TS]

  think well I think it's interesting [TS]

  because up until then we only know her [TS]

  as kind of a nameless face you know [TS]

  literally that's what I was trying to be [TS]

  vague since we don't have to spoil her [TS]

  on but no I mean yes that's right those [TS]

  who have been reading will get matchup [TS]

  anyway um yeah I i read it in [TS]

  chronological order which I highly [TS]

  highly recommend because you know [TS]

  everything makes sense to me she built a [TS]

  following for these books and then [TS]

  decided she would dive back into parts [TS]

  of the storyline and [TS]

  and so in the major points and 10 miles [TS]

  is life seemed to appear sort of an [TS]

  order but there are other pieces that [TS]

  she went kind of went back with but if [TS]

  you're just discovering it now [TS]

  you know it makes more sense to read it [TS]

  in that in the order of miles as [TS]

  timeline and not in the order that she [TS]

  wrote them there are some quirks and I [TS]

  were talking about this the other day [TS]

  that that the sea gardens or this kind [TS]

  of mystery a group of humans and who [TS]

  have their their empire and they're kind [TS]

  of scary under the baddies and then [TS]

  there's a book called see ganda where [TS]

  they go to see God and miles hasn't been [TS]

  yet adventures as he does and one of the [TS]

  funny things about it is I read that [TS]

  meant that they appear again in one of [TS]

  the short stories and the view of them [TS]

  is very different in that because it was [TS]

  obviously written well before she [TS]

  decided to write a novel about who they [TS]

  are and what their culture is so it's a [TS]

  little bit that's one the one seam where [TS]

  I really noticed it but otherwise i'm [TS]

  i'm really happy to have been able to [TS]

  follow miles in his life and his [TS]

  progression instead of hopping around [TS]

  which i think would be confusion cryo [TS]

  burn the new book in the series comes [TS]

  with a CD and one of the funny things [TS]

  about the publisher is that the [TS]

  publisher is declared that as long as [TS]

  you don't sell it you are free to [TS]

  distribute the CD any way you see fit [TS]

  so of course people have posted on the [TS]

  internet and it's legal and as a result [TS]

  essentially they have given away every [TS]

  book in the series except for memory [TS]

  which we all just raped about so you're [TS]

  going to buy that one [TS]

  so this is this is the good news here [TS]

  right is that if if what we've said [TS]

  interests you you actually can go out [TS]

  and get these books in epub or prc2 you [TS]

  can get you whatever too much every [TS]

  format or ml yeah and put it on whatever [TS]

  device you one if you want to do the eep [TS]

  the e-reader thing the Scott McNulty [TS]

  thing i should say i think that election [TS]

  even includes a the Vorkosigan companion [TS]

  it just does which I actually own [TS]

  hardcover copy of which includes much [TS]

  essays and interesting i am in total [TS]

  total nerd i actually printed them all [TS]

  out and [TS]

  because you're well known to taste for [TS]

  e-books yes exactly you do lose lose [TS]

  track of the fact of how long they are [TS]

  you just you know criminals they're [TS]

  different perspective changes the stream [TS]

  that's right that's kinda like yeah why [TS]

  it's scott said that he read a bunch of [TS]

  monroe I actually read all of them up to [TS]

  memory in a row with no other books that [TS]

  i read and then I paused and said you [TS]

  know i got i gotta read the dream of [TS]

  perpetual motion i gotta rehabbing [TS]

  safely in a science fictional universe [TS]

  which we covered in a previous podcast i [TS]

  gotta read some other stuff going to mix [TS]

  it up take a little break for miles [TS]

  before I'm going on a trip i'll probably [TS]

  jump back in but it was kind of nice to [TS]

  take a little break but it was so much [TS]

  fun to read whatever that is eight books [TS]

  all in a row with that kind of sprawling [TS]

  saga of the end i love long series and I [TS]

  think that's part of what got me really [TS]

  into it was I just enjoy seeing [TS]

  characters develop over a long period of [TS]

  time ya in that sort of epic scale same [TS]

  reason I like TV shows i think that it's [TS]

  you get a kind of depth that you don't [TS]

  necessarily get in a movie or in a [TS]

  one-shot and so that's that's kind of [TS]

  fun and it's it's nice to feel rewarded [TS]

  as a reader when there are references to [TS]

  things occasionally an oblique ones to [TS]

  things that have happened before you [TS]

  think ah I get that I get that that's a [TS]

  joke but it's nice it's a nice feeling [TS]

  yeah yeah and I was intimidated when I [TS]

  saw those things on Hugo list and kind [TS]

  of series and all that but it's it's [TS]

  good it's a lot of fun and so I think [TS]

  people shouldn't be should be terrified [TS]

  by the fact that it's a series and you [TS]

  can you know if you read that first on a [TS]

  bus and then maybe the you know that [TS]

  that first book with Myles I think [TS]

  you're going to find that it's a lot of [TS]

  fun and and they are self-contained in [TS]

  the sense that you know it's not as if [TS]

  they're it's not like those george RR [TS]

  martin books the the game of thrones [TS]

  which I love but they have no ending [TS]

  they just continued interest cap really [TS]

  just started like I have no idea who it [TS]

  was characters are I'm going on i read [TS]

  two or three of those in a row and again [TS]

  you could not even really to other than [TS]

  the fact that there's kind of a climax [TS]

  in a series of cliffhangers you can't [TS]

  really tell it's one long story as [TS]

  opposed to being episodes in this yes [TS]

  one and that's what this that's what [TS]

  these are which means that you shouldn't [TS]

  feel to get back to another topic of [TS]

  many of our podcast that the idea that [TS]

  what you're you get you got ripped off [TS]

  you get to the end and you gotta buy the [TS]

  next [TS]

  to find out what happens there are not [TS]

  the case at all with the Vorkosigan [TS]

  novels and that's nice because i think [TS]

  it means that you can try them out [TS]

  without fear that you're going to get [TS]

  the shaft [TS]

  well she even said I mean she wrote a [TS]

  lot of these so that they could be easy [TS]

  jumping in points for people who had no [TS]

  prior knowledge of what throwing on in [TS]

  any order I think you could probably [TS]

  appreciate some of them not necessarily [TS]

  all of them but some of them you could [TS]

  probably definitely excel when you [TS]

  presented a logical order of Athos haha [TS]

  yes if you ever asked yourself what [TS]

  would happen if men invented a device [TS]

  that would allow them to have children [TS]

  without the participation of women and [TS]

  create an all-male society if you've [TS]

  ever wondered if there could be a great [TS]

  science-fiction novel that accepted [TS]

  these gender roles ethan of athos is [TS]

  sadly not that novel because it's not [TS]

  very good i will say that that [TS]

  technology which plays a major part in [TS]

  much of the red miles three-story only [TS]

  is it ended and in much of barrios [TS]

  development you know that's a big deal i [TS]

  think that is one of her intriguing like [TS]

  like we were talking about earlier i [TS]

  think scott was saying it's something [TS]

  that kind of floats underneath the [TS]

  surface there she doesn't necessarily [TS]

  draw a lot of attention to think how [TS]

  important it would be if we invented [TS]

  this thing all right but it plays a lot [TS]

  of important parts and gets you to think [TS]

  about how what would the impact of this [TS]

  particular technology if he if women [TS]

  didn't need to carry fetuses to [TS]

  terminate you could just stick them in a [TS]

  in a metal box and debate okay yeah [TS]

  nothing but trouble nothing but trouble [TS]

  LT and we i was thinking what else have [TS]

  we have we not talked about that we [TS]

  should make sure to get on my thing that [TS]

  I I thought it was a we didn't really [TS]

  talk about the difference between the [TS]

  cultures of again one of things i love [TS]

  about the John Barnes thousand cultures [TS]

  those are actually sore earth cultures [TS]

  transplanted to other planets hear what [TS]

  you've got is these cultures that have [TS]

  evolved over time on these different [TS]

  planets based on the that the politics [TS]

  and the the movement of the two of the [TS]

  technology which i really like the fact [TS]

  that there are back waters and that [TS]

  there's bits of territory that can be [TS]

  you know that that you know the politics [TS]

  are of the universe not just a bar but [TS]

  of the universe and the galaxies are [TS]

  very interesting and because of the [TS]

  structure of the you've got jump points [TS]

  and some places are back waters in some [TS]

  places are [TS]

  our transfer points but the culture [TS]

  especially of the baton my beta colony [TS]

  which is where miles is mom is from and [TS]

  a bar ER where his dad is from [TS]

  fascinating is the bait the bait ins are [TS]

  on one level you think well they're [TS]

  kinda more like us and then you realize [TS]

  they're really matter where they are the [TS]

  day and the bar ends are both polar [TS]

  opposites of kind of each other and are [TS]

  headed in different directions from our [TS]

  kind of culture modern culture which is [TS]

  fascinating so you've got this kind of [TS]

  regression and this strange progression [TS]

  and I I think that's kind of fascinating [TS]

  look at any kind of as a liberal [TS]

  conservative kind of you but it goes it [TS]

  goes wildly more on tonight's not quite [TS]

  that simple yeah no not not at all well [TS]

  this book is not about black and white [TS]

  right there there you know the buttons [TS]

  are kind of hedonistic and they they [TS]

  have it all their babies are carried in [TS]

  these in these metal boxes and and they [TS]

  are [TS]

  yeah they're wild and crazy and they've [TS]

  got a third gender is walking around and [TS]

  and then the bar yarns are are these you [TS]

  know sort of Russian serious slovak [TS]

  Russian kind of people in there in there [TS]

  there feudalism in the background [TS]

  they've got their kind of low slung [TS]

  buildings and there's hardscrabble and [TS]

  you know cities and and they've lived [TS]

  for a couple hundred years to completely [TS]

  cut off and and they're kind of grumpy [TS]

  about this new technology which is [TS]

  really interesting well you also look at [TS]

  the kind of the anarchists Jackson's [TS]

  hole which i think is a nice kind of [TS]

  third-party to the right right where you [TS]

  have you know this series of releases [TS]

  satellites its plant materials [TS]

  yeah its most yeah it's berenis the [TS]

  Baron different forbear yeah and [TS]

  something they're all ya around charges [TS]

  you know black market weapons and and [TS]

  eat illegal genetic trades the where you [TS]

  can get anything to them yes the most [TS]

  isolated for this universe and then [TS]

  you've got the seat again there who are [TS]

  this you know strange there the genetic [TS]

  engineers and it's this incredibly [TS]

  complicated culture that i would imagine [TS]

  it reminded me of a lot of stories about [TS]

  sort of the mystery of the Orient when [TS]

  people when Western explorers went to [TS]

  China or Japan and never like what the [TS]

  hell is going on I don't understand [TS]

  anything that these people doing [TS]

  it's like that it's almost like hard to [TS]

  understand [TS]

  complexity of the culture from the [TS]

  outside and gradually kind of figuring [TS]

  out but it's it's you know and the fact [TS]

  that they're all genetically engineered [TS]

  to meet higher culture is about genetic [TS]

  engineering in a way that is in some [TS]

  ways completely outrageous to the extent [TS]

  they take it and then again there's sort [TS]

  of not necessarily judgments about the [TS]

  the the culture is good or bad there's a [TS]

  lot of shades of grey [TS]

  well and then you throw in you know I [TS]

  know you guys most of you have not read [TS]

  kumar but like either you get you get [TS]

  hints of the commands early in some of [TS]

  the earlier brace right and who they are [TS]

  which is basically a culture that you [TS]

  know in so many ways was oppressed and [TS]

  and conquer they conquered by today [TS]

  because they are there like Poland there [TS]

  like in the way of everybody's but you [TS]

  get a little more this goal you get a [TS]

  lot of a little more interest in them [TS]

  starting tomorrow and more background on [TS]

  what the whole planet and what that [TS]

  whole culture is like which is also very [TS]

  interesting in its own way [TS]

  given the miles his father as is known [TS]

  as the butcher of kumar and then and [TS]

  marco was raised by tomorrow and let me [TS]

  tell you didn't go to I gonna get that [TS]

  nickname yeah that's a bad sign [TS]

  yes anything else we should talk about [TS]

  about the Vorkosigan saga that something [TS]

  that we haven't mentioned in the time i [TS]

  would like to connect with Embry plug [TS]

  for one of her other books were just not [TS]

  a John McNulty's again candy i will [TS]

  allow it [TS]

  alright I think she has written another [TS]

  I another's fantasy series at least the [TS]

  first two books which are quite good the [TS]

  cursor Challon and if you're interested [TS]

  in fantasy and sort of an interesting [TS]

  take and again i think was kind of cool [TS]

  is that she takes these these books are [TS]

  from my an interesting perspective the [TS]

  characters are very interesting so i [TS]

  would i would recommend the cursor [TS]

  Chilean and its follow-up the paladin of [TS]

  souls both of which are more interesting [TS]

  fantasy kind of fantasy is that is that [TS]

  like a system like magic or swords or [TS]

  dragons yeah there's a little bit of [TS]

  magic but I think again what's really [TS]

  interesting is the culture America's [TS]

  this one is pinned largely on there's a [TS]

  universe of with five gods and she sort [TS]

  of said that her idea was to write five [TS]

  books each of which represents one of [TS]

  these five gods or is told the point of [TS]

  view of a character who's in some way [TS]

  somatically linked to one of the gods [TS]

  and she has finished three of them I [TS]

  thought the first you were quite good [TS]

  the third one lightbulb it for me [TS]

  and she said well I keep thinking about [TS]

  the fourth and fifth but she hasn't [TS]

  quite nailed down with what they are [TS]

  about yet but i think she will she will [TS]

  get them at some point Scott ren you [TS]

  have any any other thoughts about for [TS]

  coast again looks great [TS]

  they're good yeah there they are good [TS]

  even though i don't like the main [TS]

  character enjoy the books now that's an [TS]

  endorsement [TS]

  yes it is a lot of fun and I think [TS]

  there's something to be said for that [TS]

  that's the same reason i read a I've [TS]

  read a bunch of the jack mcdevitt sci-fi [TS]

  which is you know net not gonna win any [TS]

  awards for pros styling but it's [TS]

  interstellar spaceship mystery kind of [TS]

  stuff and it's fun it's great and i felt [TS]

  i had that kind of vibe that they're [TS]

  better written than McDevitt's but but I [TS]

  had the same kind of vibe where it's [TS]

  it's it's such a joy to read them and [TS]

  and I think they're me that that's what [TS]

  it comes down to is their stories that i [TS]

  love and you know I could certainly a [TS]

  lot of my writing has been influenced by [TS]

  her books and all of your storage [TS]

  feature short characters than just [TS]

  barrel through actually explains a lot [TS]

  after reading these books I i saw the [TS]

  connections in resurrection men which is [TS]

  one of yours Stan yeah I you know and I [TS]

  i think a lot of that is sort of a majj [TS]

  part of it so much part of its just I [TS]

  really enjoyed the fun aspect that I [TS]

  want you know i love reading a good romp [TS]

  and I think all these books can be [TS]

  classified that and and they have [TS]

  another level to them yet is great if [TS]

  you want to look deeper there's there's [TS]

  certainly stuff there but even if you [TS]

  just want to take it at the surface [TS]

  value of a fun adventure in a [TS]

  swashbuckling type adventure and then [TS]

  you can do just that [TS]

  that's right your buckle will be [TS]

  splashed there's no doubt the swash will [TS]

  be buckled is the who don't know what i [TS]

  did i was reading an interview with the [TS]

  old where she they were asking her you [TS]

  know how do you write this and what's [TS]

  your process and she said that she [TS]

  thinks to herself when she gets to a [TS]

  point of action what's the worst [TS]

  possible thing that could happen to this [TS]

  character and that's what she does and [TS]

  as i was reading the books you could [TS]

  clearly see that soft process you have [TS]

  that moment of oh no what's going to [TS]

  dive and this time I'll or I'm n divided [TS]

  yes I went to a reading bible job last [TS]

  year and she read a brief excerpt of a [TS]

  forthcoming book which means [TS]

  does not finish it or had not finished [TS]

  the time which is centered on Ivan which [TS]

  I'm that's a light looking forward to [TS]

  since he is a an interesting character [TS]

  in my will I will leave with my favorite [TS]

  my favorite description of him which i [TS]

  think might be cordial saying he may be [TS]

  the smartest one of us all so i'm a bit [TS]

  of housekeeping before we go the next [TS]

  book in the book club is indeed going to [TS]

  be the dream of perpetual motion that [TS]

  will be in a few weeks [TS]

  read it people on the not not not you [TS]

  dear listener looking at the end with me [TS]

  read it it is it is quite different [TS]

  it is i will have to chip in his years [TS]

  it is and there is a Zeppelin in it and [TS]

  it is this beautiful actually I I'm [TS]

  still processing it myself but I is [TS]

  beautifully written and very interesting [TS]

  and has a very strange ending but but [TS]

  enough of of that that's next time and [TS]

  then looking at a little further [TS]

  we're also going to talk about Ted chang [TS]

  and stories of your life and others and [TS]

  some other short stories by him so you [TS]

  might want to check that out if you [TS]

  haven't read that yet and I think we [TS]

  also have a fantasy podcast in our [TS]

  future where we're going to talk about [TS]

  some fantasy stuff including george RR [TS]

  martin and the game of [TS]

  martin and the game of [TS]

  groans along with some other stuff so [TS]

  until then until next time i'd like to [TS]

  thank my guest dan morgan who brought [TS]

  this upon us all [TS]

  thank you for recommending this series [TS]

  it's delightful [TS]

  you are so welcome and i'm glad that you [TS]

  all enjoyed it except for Scott under [TS]

  you're not glad I enjoyed it [TS]

  I'm not glad you enjoyed it gotten but [TS]

  but Scott you did enjoy right i did in [TS]

  fact enjoy so thank you for sharing your [TS]

  love and and I know breaking down in [TS]

  admitting that Dan recommended something [TS]

  good because I know that's hard last [TS]

  however it is it is to dan is my [TS]

  arch-nemesis it is true he used to just [TS]

  be your nemesis but I think you killed [TS]

  your arch-nemesis right so he had [TS]

  instant write an open slot [TS]

  yeah yep it happens good on you upward [TS]

  months god yeah that's happened I have a [TS]

  nemesis tournament bracket system so the [TS]

  ELO rating champion morning has gone up [TS]

  his nose [TS]

  alright alright and serenity called well [TS]

  thank you for joining us in this in the [TS]

  spine madness thank you i'm going to go [TS]

  leave and lead the rest of cry over now [TS]

  wow wow i'm way behind now [TS]

  until next time I hope we've provided [TS]

  you with lots of things to think about [TS]

  and read it on the incomparable podcast [TS]

  I'm Jason Snell to next time thanks for [TS]

  listenin [TS]